1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 26 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 352       Contents: Re: A few questions  RE: A Primrose Path...' Advance Server error after installation 4 Alpha -> Itanium; Idle Ramblings; An Optimistic ViewE An Engineer's Perspective (was: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence) & Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives" BLISS-64 on IA64... Rdb/NT anyone?& Re: BLISS-64 on IA64... Rdb/NT anyone? Changing platforms.  Re: Changing platforms.  RE: Changing platforms.  Re: Changing platforms. 1 Re: Compaq C equivalent of pragma export on/off ? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do? = Compaq Intel porting effect on Microsoft (was: Compaq proves) A Re: Compaq Intel porting effect on Microsoft (was: Compaq proves) $ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence$ Re: Compaq proves their incompetence Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) I Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...) ( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?= Decnet IV vs. DECnet V (was: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium) A Re: Decnet IV vs. DECnet V (was: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium) ( E-mail addresses in Enterprise Directory& Re: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1& RE: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1P Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form  on line:P Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line:  Re: First lost sale  Re: First lost sale  Re: First lost sale  Re: First lost sale  Re: First lost sale  Re: FORTRAN question Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: FUD  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium = Full port of VMS to Itanium (was: What does Alphas dead mean) A Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium (was: What does Alphas dead mean)   RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. Re: Future support of VAX-VMS  Re: Future support of VAX-VMS  Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64* Re: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwood* RE: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwood RE: I will change platform Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: Itanium HW REF MAN iVMS Re: iVMS Re: Mozilla 0.9.1 
 MWAIT Problem / Re: Ni fleurs ni couronnes [was] Compaq & Alpha + OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture) / Re: OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture) 
 Prediction Re: Prediction Re: Prediction Re: Prediction Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco. Re: Question to Charlie Matco.( Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS( Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS Tastes Like Chicken 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated L Re: The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64posting)L Re: The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64posting) The value of a Compaq promise ! Re: The value of a Compaq promise  Re: VMS on IA64  VMS on Itanic - Blame meA Re: VMS Software support access in queue with the wintel weenies?  Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning....  What about performance issues?? # Re: What about performance issues?? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? ) Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ? A Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean ' Re: Where to obtain VMS2IMAP or similar : RE: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:55:44 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: A few questions3 Message-ID: <h9w63baqqyLh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   t In article <KaTZ6.36072$9r1.2566746@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net> writes:7 > I cross-posted, because it encompasses a few systems.  >  > First question:   > What's the difference between:	 > -Ultrix   D 32 bit BSD 4.2 UNIX (with some 4.3 extensions), runs on VAX and MIPS  
 > -Ultrix UWS   % Windowing system which runs on ULTRIX    > -Ultrix-32  G Either the same as ULTRIX, or a differentiator between the VAX and MIPS 	 versions.    > 	 > Second:  > What the heck is MicroVMS?  B A trimmed down VMS 4.x for MicroVAX.  "Micro" was dropped from theF hardware names sometime in the VMS 5.x timeframe, and the upgrade path; from both MicroVMS 4.7 and VAX/VMS 4.7 was to VAX/VMS 5.0 .   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:22:09 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: A Primrose Path... - Message-ID: <0033000027563617000002L072*@MHS>   6 =0AI'm getting those looks from my coworkers because I laughed out loud (again!)    Devo indeed.  7 I had to explain to my twelve-year old son who Devo was 7 and the concept (if you can call it that without irony) 9 behind the band since there's a television commercial for : Target Stores that uses one of their songs (and even has a6 shot of some guys in those strange planter-like hats).   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET % > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 5:35 PM F > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET! > Subject: RE: A Primrose Path...  >  >  > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] > 2 > > Are we sheep? Are we lemmings? Are we not men? >  > > We are Devo. > 3 > Hey, speak for yourself.  I'm not Devo at all. ;)  > 
 > Regards, >  > Chris  > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  > '  >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:51:06 -0400 ( From: "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu>0 Subject: Advance Server error after installation/ Message-ID: <tjh4r362v8rq61@corp.supernews.com>   G I installed Advance Server V7.3 on OpenVMS.  The installation performed L without errors.  When I run the pwrk$config.com procedure however, I get the following error then aborts:  = Checking to see if OpenVMS Registry Services are available... < The OpenVMS Registry server is already started on this node.1 %REG-E-DBNOTYETLOADED, database is not yet loaded 3 %REGUTL-W-NOTINREG, known but not found in registry 9 %PWRK-E-NOTMIGRATED, entire lanman.ini file not processed   I I can't find this error anywhere in documentation.  Does anyone know what $ the problem is and how I can fix it?   Thanks,  Tom Steuver  Northern Kentucky University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:39:38 +0800 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> = Subject: Alpha -> Itanium; Idle Ramblings; An Optimistic View A Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010626211757.009f11a0@mail.bigpond.com>   	 Hi Folks,   A I am usually a lurker here but having just waded through over 400  messages...   ? My first reaction was "Alpha is dead, long live Alpha!", but... C a number of people on this group have been pushing for some time to * get VMS ported to Intel - now you have it.B Merced has been having problems (I don't know the details, I don'tB follow the technical side of these things) but maybe now that theyC have access to the Alpha "gurus" they will be able to get it right. ? There have been claims that VMS is going to die in the hands of A Compaq, now it is going to die because Alpha is no more - so what  is the difference?4 If VMS dies - it dies, unpleasant as that may sound.@ The life of Alpha has always been a problem due to not living up+ to the expected sales - right from day one. A Now that Compaq have stated "ALL our systems will be Intel based" " we at least know what is going on.C I have read the comments of the likes of Mr Shannon and the various D OpenVMS people who frequent this group.  Terry makes a living out ofC "guessing" what is going to happen; the OpenVMS Engineers have been A through all this before and have a fair idea of what is required. 1 They seem optimistic - sounds good enough for me. A Besides, surely a common hardware architecture would mean that it 0 would be easier to run binaries from other OSes.3 And, a supported "VMS laptop" would be really nice. C Maybe naive?  I started on PDP, went to VAX, went to Alpha, will be 
 going to ...?        Regards, Dave.  --  I David B Sneddon (dbs)  OpenVMS Systems Programmer   dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/ I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:19:14 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)N Subject: An Engineer's Perspective (was: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence)1 Message-ID: <SJ1_6.146$rc5.4968@news.cpqcorp.net>   V In article <3B37BAD1.E11E9D58@mmaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> writes:O :Maybe I'm myopic as well as pig-headed, but in never too humble opinion, the Q  :screwed up big time...   K   Maybe I'm pig-headed (too), but I see this rather decision differently...   J   Knowing what I know (systems and software engineering perspective), thisJ   IPF decision was a very tough one but (based on what I know) a good one.J   This decision greatly simplifies the product line and the hardware linesK   for y'all, and it has obvious benefits for manufacturing.  This approach  L   also has obvious potential benefits from an end-user software perspective.  J   Maybe the wrong thing to say (particularly if taken out of context), butM   this is gonna be a fun ride...  (I can see all sorts of nifty possibilities H   here for new stuff, and I see an opportunity to fix some of the ratherJ   more bone-headed things we have latent in the existing implementations.)  J   I like Alpha.  I've been through three other major platform transitions H   already (PDP11, VAX, Alpha), and I expect I'll see others...  I am nowH   starting to learn IA-64/IPF/EPIC, and (here's part of the fun :-) I'm G   going to get to work directly on and work with "iVMS" before y'all...   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:58:07 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> / Subject: Re: Backup speed with TZ89 tape drives ' Message-ID: <3B3894EE.CD4E6AB1@fsi.net>    Scott Vieth wrote: >  > why not /block=65535?   F You will notice that even when you specify /block=65535, BACKUP uses a8 somewhat lower number, 65024, as I recall. Not sure why.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:23:40 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) + Subject: BLISS-64 on IA64... Rdb/NT anyone? * Message-ID: <9h9usc$r7b$1@lisa.gemair.com>  = In article <7106a72f.0106252208.10ca7c21@posting.google.com>, / Peter Quodling <quodling@bigpond.net.au> wrote:  >[snip]  > A >Just think of the cool offshoots. BLISS-64 on intel platforms! A : >decvent chance of VMS on a laptop again... Exciting times  A Hey!  The fact that BLISS would not be supported on IA32 was the  E stated reason that Oracle killed Oracle Rdb/NT.  I wonder if there's  > any hope for Rdb/NT now that there almost certainly will be a  supported BLISS-64 for IA64?   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 10:31:45 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: BLISS-64 on IA64... Rdb/NT anyone? 3 Message-ID: <KZ2dE2tMwotd@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <9h9usc$r7b$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:? > In article <7106a72f.0106252208.10ca7c21@posting.google.com>, 1 > Peter Quodling <quodling@bigpond.net.au> wrote:  >>[snip] >>B >>Just think of the cool offshoots. BLISS-64 on intel platforms! A; >>decvent chance of VMS on a laptop again... Exciting times  > C > Hey!  The fact that BLISS would not be supported on IA32 was the  G > stated reason that Oracle killed Oracle Rdb/NT.  I wonder if there's  @ > any hope for Rdb/NT now that there almost certainly will be a  > supported BLISS-64 for IA64?  = What makes you think there will be a supported Bliss for IA64 B when there is not a supported Bliss for Alpha.  Bliss is Freeware.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:38:44 +0100 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> Subject: Changing platforms.N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCB@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J > I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.  K The VMS VAX-Alpha transition was for ordinary users and software developers L probably the easiest transition in the history of computing. Most code couldL be taken through unchanged and one sometimes didn't even require the code: aL new VEST was all that was needed! Even device drivers moved across without aD great deal of trouble. The only real problems occurred with hardwareI supported on the VAX which did not continue to be supported on the Alpha. H Now that most peripherals are "industry standard" there shouldn't be too: many reasons to prevent a smooth Alpha-Itanium transition.  H A side benefit of converting to Itanium may be that the VMS code becomesK more or less compatible with Intel in general and we may perhaps be witness F to another OS running on all (up to date) Intel PCs:  iVMS may be here sooner than expected.h   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:40:46 +0100p- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>o  Subject: Re: Changing platforms./ Message-ID: <3B38589E.523C4A86@herald.ox.ac.uk>s   John Macallister wrote:VM > The VMS VAX-Alpha transition was for ordinary users and software developersw> > probably the easiest transition in the history of computing.   Possibly, but...   > Most code coulde > be taken through unchanged  < Rubbish. Depended on the code and what it was doing and why.  3 > and one sometimes didn't even require the code: a # > new VEST was all that was needed!l  1 Great if your disks were 90% empty to start with.p   -- p http://i.am/getting_married , ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:25:42 +0100E8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>  Subject: RE: Changing platforms.N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFD0@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   > > Most code couldn > > be taken through unchanged   > Rubbish. n  E Not at all. The statement was based on my experience of the VAX-Alpha I transition. Several (FORTRAN) packages of 20,000 to 200,000 lines of codesJ (Yes, a 200,000 code-line package required no changes!) in our environment? made the transition without any code changes. The packages were J "well-written" platform independent in the first place because they had to$ run on a variety of different OS's.   J The ease of transition of any package will depend on how well written (andL commented!) it is in the first place. There may be extra effort required forK hardware specific or OS-specific features but if the software is written inrI a modular way the transition effort may be small as all OS's have a greatS@ deal of common functionality albeit expressed in different ways.   John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:08:42 -0400p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>   Subject: Re: Changing platforms., Message-ID: <3B38A57A.51B29184@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote:uM > The VMS VAX-Alpha transition was for ordinary users and software developersl> > probably the easiest transition in the history of computing.  I No. Apple wins that award and by far. Apple didn't drop half its software 8 products when it moved from 68k to PowerPC, Digital did.  J > A side benefit of converting to Itanium may be that the VMS code becomesM > more or less compatible with Intel in general and we may perhaps be witnesstH > to another OS running on all (up to date) Intel PCs:  iVMS may be here > sooner than expected.   N Sorry, but handheld devices generally run on the Arm architecture, which IntelN didn't do much of after it inherited parts of it from Digital. (Didn't Arm get. back the stuff that Intel got from Digital ?).  J Fruthermore, Alpha provided functions that made the port from VAX to AlphaL easy. But what if IA64 doesn't provide the various protection modes that VMSL requires ? The engineers will have to spend much time at the very low memoryB management level to figure out a way to emulate the old behaviour.  J Of course, to the user, chances are that there will be very few changes ifJ any. (probably show memory, and some sysgen parameters will be different).  I Also consider that most Compaq servers come with a default blue screen of.N death console. Will the VMS engineers provide a graphical OPA0: on servers, orL will they find a way to provide character cell OPA0: on a non-serial console port ?   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 09:07:16 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)a: Subject: Re: Compaq C equivalent of pragma export on/off ?3 Message-ID: <FKSgElv38Obq@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  8 In article <leTZ6.97479$Uo3.2219785@news6.giganews.com>,0 "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.network> writes:H > I hate to interrupt the wake with a VMS/Compaq C related question but: >sH > I'm fiddling [technical term for something done in my spare time] withD > some C code that originated on the Macintosh OS that seems to love > usingt >o >     #pragma export on  >     #pragma export off  6 The meaning for this is apparently Macintosh specific.  D #pragma is by definition compiler vendor specific.  If you are usingG #pragma in code intended to be portable, it should be wrapped in #ifdefn code for the specific compiler..  I Even though unrecognized #pragma directectives should be silently ignoredpI there is the possibility that two different compiler vendors could assignl1 completely different meanings to the same syntax.a  F > for large chunks of external functions. I'm looking for a simple wayG > to deal with this.... and this doesn't seem to be something supported @ > by Compaq C (I'm using Compaq C 6.2 on VMS 7.2-1 on an Alpha).  F #pragma codes that are not recognized by a compiler are supposed to beF be silently ignored.  If this is not the case, then it is a bug in theJ compiler.  Compaq C 6.2 is a bit old, as I understand, the current version is 6.4a.  H > If I understand what is going on correctly (remotely possible) I THINK( > what I want is to use some variant of: >1 >     #pragma extern_model? > for each function.... although the original source does it ina! > blocks between the on & off....   H I would not make that assumption.  The Compaq C #pragma extern_model has+ to do with how extern variables are mapped.u  I You really need to look at the documentation for the Compiler used on the I Macintosh platform in order to find out why they are used.  It may or mayt/ not be important to OpenVMS or other platforms.    -Johnh wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyf   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:42:50 -0700V1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>i4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?2 Message-ID: <3B3804BA.92FC6CA@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>   Terry C Shannon wrote:  : > > Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess? > : > API NetWorks, ne API, will shuffle off its mortal coils.     Collateral damage, eh?   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/p   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:46:16 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)wF Subject: Compaq Intel porting effect on Microsoft (was: Compaq proves)3 Message-ID: <psN$r4chPrOl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <eUXE6Zg$AHA.292@cpmsnbbsa07>, "cstranslations" <cstranslations@email.msn.com> writes:e > L > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message, > news:009FE0F8.8671F2D3@SendSpamHere.ORG...H >> In article <9h7i8q$bld@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, vance@alumni.caltech.edu > (Vance R. Haemmerle) writes: >>J >> Emperor Bill must be falling off his seat and rolling on the floor withK >> this news.  Any impediment to his eventually taking over all computerdomiK >> has just been annihilated.  I'm just glad I own my home outright, have a J >> goodly sum stashed away, and some very wealth relatives with my name at' >> the top of their bequeathment lists.  >> > I > Of course only time will tell - however I don't know that Bill has muchoL > reason to be rolling around on the floor. Unless he is banging his head onM > the 4 walls with worry while he's rolling around. There seems so be an ever-K > increasing dissatisfaction with what he's rolling out (or staring to roll<+ > out) in .NET, XP and associated products.o > M > Seems people aren't to sure they what their IS departments connected to theeI > nervous system in Redmond. Perhaps that should be the lack of a nervouso > system in Redmond?  @ Operating systems from Compaq make Intel a bit less dependent onA Microsoft.  And IA64 is new enough that Microsoft does not really. own it, like they do IA32.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:46:10 +0200t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> J Subject: Re: Compaq Intel porting effect on Microsoft (was: Compaq proves), Message-ID: <3B388412.7B037BCD@infopuls.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > c > In article <eUXE6Zg$AHA.292@cpmsnbbsa07>, "cstranslations" <cstranslations@email.msn.com> writes:y > >-N > > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message. > > news:009FE0F8.8671F2D3@SendSpamHere.ORG...J > >> In article <9h7i8q$bld@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, vance@alumni.caltech.edu  > > (Vance R. Haemmerle) writes: > >>L > >> Emperor Bill must be falling off his seat and rolling on the floor withM > >> this news.  Any impediment to his eventually taking over all computerdomlM > >> has just been annihilated.  I'm just glad I own my home outright, have aeL > >> goodly sum stashed away, and some very wealth relatives with my name at) > >> the top of their bequeathment lists.l > >> > >nK > > Of course only time will tell - however I don't know that Bill has much"N > > reason to be rolling around on the floor. Unless he is banging his head onO > > the 4 walls with worry while he's rolling around. There seems so be an evermM > > increasing dissatisfaction with what he's rolling out (or staring to rolla- > > out) in .NET, XP and associated products.r > > O > > Seems people aren't to sure they what their IS departments connected to theaK > > nervous system in Redmond. Perhaps that should be the lack of a nervouss > > system in Redmond? > B > Operating systems from Compaq make Intel a bit less dependent onC > Microsoft.  And IA64 is new enough that Microsoft does not reallya > own it, like they do IA32.  > Incredible. Would you please mention any facts that reveal any# dependency of Untel from Micro$hit?    ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 06:14:47 GMT3 From: Howard Siegel <not.interested@nospam.invalid>s- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencep) Message-ID: <9h998n$fe2$1@news.panix.com>   $ jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca writes: > Howard Siegel wrote:R > > Depends on how bad the porting will be.  If Compaq pulls it off, then IA64 VMSS > > will look just like Alpha VMS and they'll have source code compatible compilerswQ > > so little if any code would need to be changed, at least initially.  That's amS > > damn site easier to take than having to change languages, run time environments  > > and OS all at once!- > E > What about all the custom made drivers to run special machines, anda > manufacturing plants ?  I I alluded to the problem of very low level code in my previous message...rH It will be a problem.  How big a problem, nobody yet knows.  But I don'tJ think that Compaq is ignoring the problem, they just haven't yet announcedH how they are going to implement the solution to the problem.  After all,H they just the big announcement this morning. You can't expect them to beK able to tell you how to move each and every bit in the driver that quickly!e  O > It isn't so much the actual porting that worries me, but what happens between P > now and when VMS in IA64 becomes a viable solution. If VMS sales dry up duringM > that time, Compaq may have a hard time justifying continued budgets and themE > porting effort may be stretched on a longer period, just as Alpha'sr/ > depveloppemt was slowed with fewer resources.h  I If all goes well, this keeps more of the VMS customer base intact knowingoG that there is light at the end of the tunnel, instead of a never endinge tunnel or a dead end.e  M > Remember that Compaq's main focus is to reduce expenses and make its wintele, > boxes more competitive with those of Dell.  L If Compaq couldn't make a go of being a processor manufacturer, and sells ofM the technology and the fabs, they won't have a money losing division weighingeE on the bottom line.  That'll make them more competitive against Dell.t   - howard   -- n --  M Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:09:47 -0700e5 From: "cstranslations" <cstranslations@email.msn.com>-- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence-) Message-ID: <eUXE6Zg$AHA.292@cpmsnbbsa07>   J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FE0F8.8671F2D3@SendSpamHere.ORG...G > In article <9h7i8q$bld@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, vance@alumni.caltech.eduu (Vance R. Haemmerle) writes: >eI > Emperor Bill must be falling off his seat and rolling on the floor with J > this news.  Any impediment to his eventually taking over all computerdomJ > has just been annihilated.  I'm just glad I own my home outright, have aI > goodly sum stashed away, and some very wealth relatives with my name ati& > the top of their bequeathment lists. >   G Of course only time will tell - however I don't know that Bill has muchwJ reason to be rolling around on the floor. Unless he is banging his head onK the 4 walls with worry while he's rolling around. There seems so be an evertI increasing dissatisfaction with what he's rolling out (or staring to roll-) out) in .NET, XP and associated products.n  K Seems people aren't to sure they what their IS departments connected to the:G nervous system in Redmond. Perhaps that should be the lack of a nervousi system in Redmond?   Joe7   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:53:33 GMTg* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencea* Message-ID: <3B3831BA.F501F62@prodigy.net>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > D > In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010625085538.02818ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>,, >    Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: > O > > Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do that H > > with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven/ > > technology when they were first released...J > >0L >     Isn't that a bit different - those were their chips and their survivalJ > depended on making them work. Does Intel *need* IA64 to succeed or couldG > they survive by continuing to crank out enhancements to Pentium? It'sjF > often stated that nobody needs 64bits on the desktop and Intels doneG > quite well so far being a producer of desktop processors. Sure they'dgG > like to go after the big server market with IA64, but it's probably aL) > small percentage of their total market.n  M Intel can't grow if they limit themselves to a replacement market in desktopso at ever decreasing ASP.A   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:17:29 GMT * From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence + Message-ID: <3B383756.A2DA0DBB@prodigy.net>e   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > k > In article <%aMZ6.118$rc5.4442@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:-: > > Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-) > H >    It sure is. Macro-32 is what I use when I have to do something thatA > seems too akward to do in BASIC ( saves me having to use C) :-)c > . >    I assume Macro-32 will be ported to IA64?   I'll be watching for that.  ;-)h   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:16 CDTv' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) - Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencee- Message-ID: <26JUN200102163422@gerg.tamu.edu>'  ) Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes...t1 }At 08:44 AM 6/25/2001, Vance R. Haemmerle wrote:t }>   And another thing... :) }>K }>   Turning over the future of the company to an unproven chip is Compaq'stH }>way to turn over all responsiblity of their high-end systems to eventsL }>out of their control.  It's the easiest way for managers who can't executeD }>to have someone else to blame when the chip fails to come through. }>H }>   Obviously these events today guarantee IA64 MONOPOLY status and theJ }>FTC should look into this deal.  Their previous restrictions on the saleH }>of the Alpha FAB to Intel was not enough to stop Intel and Compaq from3 }>removing the competition given by the Alpha chip.  }> }>-- }>Vance Haemmerles }>vance@alumni.caltech.edu } L }Ummmmmmm...pardon playing the devil's advocate here, but didn't DEC do thatE }with the VAX, and particularly with the Alpha?  Neither was a proven0, }technology when they were first released... }------uJ }| Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |  G Yeah, but DEC owned both the VAX and the Alpha. They were in control ofd what happened with them.  G Compaq has just surrendered control to Intel. Capellas is no longer the J captain of his own ship - he is the captain of a dinghy being towed behindH the Intel ship (not to mention Microsoft). Wherever Intel decides to go, Compaq has to follow.u  B What I want to know is what Compaq is actually getting out of this  deal other than an "agreement".   B The Alpha technology (intellectual property, if you will - a bunchD of patents if nothing else) is worth money. A *LOT* of money. So howC much did Intel actually pay Compaq for this IP? So far, there is noi- mention of any payment - just an "agreement".   H At this point Intel appears to have made out like a bandit (only better: it's all legal).  ? I'd bet that Intels lawyers are better than Compaqs lawyers. ItaC also looks like Intels negotiators have outdone Compaqs negotiatorsi1 much like Microsoft's outdid DEC's way back when.0   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:24:56 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>g- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence , Message-ID: <3B3838C6.27837650@videotron.ca>   Howard Siegel wrote:N > If Compaq couldn't make a go of being a processor manufacturer, and sells ofO > the technology and the fabs, they won't have a money losing division weighing G > on the bottom line.  That'll make them more competitive against Dell.r  M It's not a question of Compaq "couldn't make a go", but rather "wouldn't makev a go".  L Compaq hasn't tried to make Alpha a mainstream chip. They could have tried. M Compaq didn't try to make VMS a mainstream operating system. They could have,l but they didn't.  L The failure is not Alpha's but Compaq's. Alphas wasn't allowed to run in the! race, so it didn't lose the race.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:06:53 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence3, Message-ID: <3B384299.586927A1@videotron.ca>   Carl Perkins wrote:AD > What I want to know is what Compaq is actually getting out of this! > deal other than an "agreement".t  H It is , of course, purely a coincidence that Compaq has announced a $500L million buying binge to buy software/solutions companies to grow its serviceC business at a rate of 40% per year until it makes up 1/3 of Compaq.M  N Add the welfare money that will be spent to pay the VMS and Tru64 engineers toM port their software to IA64. (Tandem already had budgets to port to Alpha, sob. those budgets can be re-used to port to IA64).    H By the way, I find the timing of this most interesting. Normally, CompaqJ should have waited until IA64 would have proven itself on the field beforeI announcing that its most msision critical systems such as Tandem would becM ported to that platform. Secondly, it would have begun covert porting effortsiK well before announcing this so that lead times would be far less than the 4t years that is publicly stated.    M However, the timing is quite interesting since Microsoft's antitrust trial iscJ just about to reach a conclusion under a government who was against such aN trial. Imagine this: The monopoly PC chip maker will now build a chip on whichN run many operating systems, not just NT. All of a sudden, NT will have lots of competition. (or so it seems).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:49:07 +0010c% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au - Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencee5 Message-ID: <01K58EA54JFM001EYW@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>r   JF   >Carl Perkins wrote:E >> What I want to know is what Compaq is actually getting out of thisF" >> deal other than an "agreement". > I >It is , of course, purely a coincidence that Compaq has announced a $500<M >million buying binge to buy software/solutions companies to grow its servicepD >business at a rate of 40% per year until it makes up 1/3 of Compaq.   [snips]   U And their ability in that area has moved to zilch, as experienced by those suffering o5 from its non-existence.  Another Computer Associates?m   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 03:42 CDTs' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) - Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencee- Message-ID: <26JUN200103420807@gerg.tamu.edu>e  6 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes...8 }As with the early days of alpha systems, there won't be- }competitive high-performance VMS platforms. n }Robert Deininger   F Not only is this true durig the transition, it is obvious that it willE also be true after the transition. If you are running the same CPU as.G everybody else, you are obiously not going to have significnatly betteru raw CPU performance.   RIP EV8.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 05:59 CDTd' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)n- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetence - Message-ID: <26JUN200105592291@gerg.tamu.edu>e  ' not.interested@nospam.invalid writes...t$ }kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com writes:9 }> Bliss is a HLL, and I'll argue that so is Macro-32 ;-)o } 7 }Bliss is a HLAL (high level assembly language) like C.l6 }Macro-32 is an assembly language on a VAX, and a MLAL. }(medium level assembly language) on an Alpha.  : As long as we are making up our own silly deinitions, then: Bliss is a MLHLL (medium level high level language) like C8 (only with less problematical syntax). Macro32 is a HLAL< (high level assemply language) on VAX and a LLHLL (low level! high level language) on an Alpha.r   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:08:50 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)0- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetencee3 Message-ID: <tWovUtCLMgyT@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  b In article <3B374ED2.31A45094@hiyall.zko.dec.com>, John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> writes: > J > Huh?  Go look at the listings CDROMs and you'll see the majority (if notJ > a majority, then a very large portion) of device drivers (and many otherJ > things in OpenVMS) still written in MACRO-32.  Beyond MACRO-32, there isJ > considerable BLISS code which might not qualify has a "HLL" depending on > your point of view...- >   H IMHO BLISS is high enough that it will only need tweaking.  But Macro-32H port to IA-64 may not be as simple as it was on ALpha.  It's not to hardB to see Macro-32 as a compilable language where one VAX instructionD represents one or more RISC instructions, but how RISCy is IA-64?  IF assume Intel wants good old Pentium code to run somehow on IA-64 whichB drags in a lot of CISC heritage, and CISC to CISC won't quite map.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationE= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:20:17 +0100t  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceyH Message-ID: <OF974FA77F.CADC0F9B-ON80256A77.00435EC4@qedi.quintiles.com>  J But this still assumes mostly the present IA64 architecture.  How about ifJ the next generation of IA64 chip (as someone suggested earlier) looks muchF more like Alpha (i.e. it is a RISC chip) with a compatability mode for! running the IA32-esque functions.'K Hey presto, porting of VMS and Tru64 becomes easier, the IA32 stuff becomessH faster with running on a RISC architecture rather than a CISC and we all$ get to drive home early in our SUVs.   Bob Koehler wrote :d >>>hH IMHO BLISS is high enough that it will only need tweaking.  But Macro-32H port to IA-64 may not be as simple as it was on Alpha.  It's not to hardB to see Macro-32 as a compilable language where one VAX instructionD represents one or more RISC instructions, but how RISCy is IA-64?  IF assume Intel wants good old Pentium code to run somehow on IA-64 whichB drags in a lot of CISC heritage, and CISC to CISC won't quite map. <<<B   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:40:33 +02009) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceS+ Message-ID: <3B3882C1.47BEF0E@infopuls.com>O   Howard Siegel wrote: >  > billtodd@foo.mv.com writes:rK > > That's not the question:  the question is whether enough customers willeL > > decide in the interim to move to a platform with a less uncertain futureI > > that the inferiority (or not) of the new platform will be irrelevant.mL > > History suggests that there will be a VMS market in 2 years (since thereM > > certainly appear to be people who will stick with it no matter what), butwO > > does not suggest whether that market will be large (or demanding) enough toh* > > justify any continued VMS development. > > 
 > > - bill > K > It may not be enough to save VMS or radically increase VMS sales in an offK > itself, but I think that this breathes just enough life in to VMS to stop L > a lot of the defections. The choice is to move to an inferior (relative toM > VMS) OS on inferior hardware AND to have to eat the porting and developmenteL > costs and do the job fast versus holding out until the new likely hardwareL > is proven (or Alpha is brought back to life when the IA64 bombs) but startJ > working on a transition plan or even start the porting now just in case. > 
 > - howard >  > -- > -- > O > Netcom Class of '93, RIP Netcom!     <*>     hsiegel<->at<->pobox<->dot<->comw  > Alpha will never be brought back by Intel because the EV8 team> is working on IA63' which means if that bombs there will be no alternative.  ; As for the customers: most will probably extend the live ofa< their Alpha/VMS systems as long as possible which means that? they won't buy IA63'/VMS boxes. If they later decide to migratex? to ?/VMS or will change to another OS is hardly to predict now.r  ; Compaq has to answer a few questions which should have beenl< answered by their press release anyway; one of them is would; they continue to keep Alpha/VMS up to date as they did withl? VAX/VMS once the IA63'/VMS will be available. And what business'= securities could be offered? If Compaq fails on this there isg> the likelihood that Compaq gets toasted and their won't be any/ money left to satisfy the fooled VMS customers.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:50:10 -0600y% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>.- Subject: Re: Compaq proves their incompetenceoB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010626064758.02881de0@ntbsod.psccos.com>  * At 01:16 AM 6/26/2001, Carl Perkins wrote:C >What I want to know is what Compaq is actually getting out of thisy  >deal other than an "agreement". >nC >The Alpha technology (intellectual property, if you will - a bunch E >of patents if nothing else) is worth money. A *LOT* of money. So how D >much did Intel actually pay Compaq for this IP? So far, there is no. >mention of any payment - just an "agreement".  F It's called a "quiet period".  The companies are not allowed BY LAW to discuss anything financial.n  M Besides which, even if they DID give it away (which I'm certain they didn't),sK why does that matter to anybody in the world who doesn't own CPQ stock?  IfSH you don't own CPQ stock, it's none of your (or my) business.  It's THEIR	 PROPERTY.    ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+tI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |iI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |gI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:30:32 -0400-) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64e; Message-ID: <%qZZ6.17323$yy2.1956247@news20.bellglobal.com>-  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:$U+mdKHnvdpN@eisner.encompasserve.org...eF > In article <9h7shk$gor$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes: >v; > > As I recall Alpha was supposed to last 25 years not 15.  >eC > That was a statement made by the designers, on technical grounds. E > It was not an attempt to make a prediction of the marketing/financed > situation 25 years out.a >.F > Certainly Alpha could outrun Itanium, given equal development funds.  L If memory serves, VAX was introduced 1977 but the plug was pulled on new PDPJ technology in 89 (a twelve year overlap). The Alpha was introduced in 1992D but the plug was pulled on new VAX technology in 2000 (an eight yearK overlap). Is it unreasonable to assume a minimum 4-6 year overlap beginning 9 when OpenVMS (or Tru64 if you prefer) is usable on IA-64?h  I Let's also remember that IA-64 and Alpha approach problems from differentsK directions (compile time only in the case of IA-64 vs. compile time AND run H time in the case of Alpha EV7). My instinct tells me that Alpha could be$ with us for a very long time. (yay!)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/@   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 14:46:42 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-642+ Message-ID: <9ha78i$qeo$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>   ; In article <%qZZ6.17323$yy2.1956247@news20.bellglobal.com>,.,  "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: |> 'O |> If memory serves, VAX was introduced 1977 but the plug was pulled on new PDP - |> technology in 89 (a twelve year overlap). e  G The plug was never pulled on the PDP.  The technology was transfered tonH an interested party who has continued to develop and market the product.  M |>                                           The Alpha was introduced in 1992tG |> but the plug was pulled on new VAX technology in 2000 (an eight yeartN |> overlap). Is it unreasonable to assume a minimum 4-6 year overlap beginning< |> when OpenVMS (or Tru64 if you prefer) is usable on IA-64?  G Maybe Compaq learned from those mistakes and decided to ensure this oner really died.   |> sL |> Let's also remember that IA-64 and Alpha approach problems from differentN |> directions (compile time only in the case of IA-64 vs. compile time AND runK |> time in the case of Alpha EV7). My instinct tells me that Alpha could be ' |> with us for a very long time. (yay!)t  G Maybe, but once the port of VMS to IA64 takes on momentum how likely iscF it that new features will find their way into the Alpha version??  HowC many new features in the Alpha version found their way into the VAXu	 version??o  D I think the most noticable thing about this whole discussion is thatC the confidence level in Compaq among those who were their greatest r supporters is really low.?   bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   <   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:09:47 +0100o* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 + Message-ID: <9ha8jt$nq2@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>r  d "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message news:9ha78i$qeo$5@info.cs.uofs.edu...  I > Maybe, but once the port of VMS to IA64 takes on momentum how likely iscH > it that new features will find their way into the Alpha version??  HowE > many new features in the Alpha version found their way into the VAXr > version??t  H The stuff that doesn't get ported to VAX tends to require "C" internals,I 64-bit addressing, or IEEE floating point. I don't see that the situation> is at all analagous.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:08:46 -0700. From: quodling@bigpond.net.au (Peter Quodling)R Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...)= Message-ID: <7106a72f.0106252208.10ca7c21@posting.google.com>    > I > Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensing tB > Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  My L > understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubt restrictions  > apply. >   D Indeed, I think that the interested parties will be API, and Samsung and others.   C Probably the biggest concerns are coming out of the HP world at thelA moment, as they are dropping PA-Risc, and hitching their wagon too> itanium. I can just see it, SuperDome II - Alpha Inside... :-)  ? Sun of course, will continue on in their own little world, withn blinkers firmly in place.L  0 Motorola/IBM/Apple will continue merrily along.   A As has been inferred in several of the messages, but never to the E extent needed to quell the paranoia, the is a win. Intel's continuing A delays and problems with getting Itanium to market, rate right upr> there with Microsoft's Software reliability. THe current intelE roadmap, through Mickinley, and Madison, only goes out to 2004, and Id? bet they are running worried on some of those. I think the next-C itaniums are going to be so close to "Alpha-Inside", but with extrae# tweaks, like 13 Micron silicon etc.:  A One of the big questions is how are they going to do the VMS/UnixdF Ports. How much Instruction set similarity will there be, or will theyE be relying on translation. Oh, to be back at Spitbrook, I think it isb- going to be an exciting and busy place again.h  @ Just think of the cool offshoots. BLISS-64 on intel platforms! A9 decvent chance of VMS on a laptop again... Exciting timesa   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:08:03 -0400h) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> R Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...); Message-ID: <W5ZZ6.17183$yy2.1947936@news20.bellglobal.com>p  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@nospam.ap.org> wrote in message- news:90CBE5720wspenceraporg@207.126.101.97...e  H > Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensingA > Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  My K > understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubt restrictionso > apply. >p > ws  E This is very good news to me (because of firewall problems at work, I H haven't yet seen a replay of the NYC announcement). It is my belief thatJ EPIC (IA-64) is an immature and unproven architecture. Compaq will have toJ convince me that EPIC is better than Alpha just as Digital had to convinceI me the Alpha was better than VAX, and VAX was better than PDP. Many of ustH wouldn't touch any of these new technologies until proven s/w tools were) available AND reports of OS bugs minimal.A  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,i Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:09:07 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>aR Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...); Message-ID: <X6ZZ6.17189$yy2.1948270@news20.bellglobal.com>u  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:UHnplrZ5R5KN@eisner.encompasserve.org...s >t< > I don't understand what you think Intel has to do with it.2 > The latest fastest Alpha chips are built by IBM,4 > who will happily build as many as Compaq pays them > to build.y >e5 > Contrary to the initial rumors, Intel is not takinga6 > over Alpha -- it is receiving technology secrets for7 > use in their own chips (or non-secrets for that which07 > is patented).  Intel is also receiving an opportunity:5 > to recruit certain Compaq employees.  They are alsoA5 > getting two more operating systems ported to IA-64.n  E This is very good news to me (because of firewall problems at work, IfH haven't yet seen a replay of the NYC announcement). It is my belief thatJ EPIC (IA-64) is an immature and unproven architecture. Compaq will have toJ convince me that EPIC is better than Alpha just as Digital had to convinceI me the Alpha was better than VAX, and VAX was better than PDP. Many of uslH wouldn't touch any of these new technologies until proven s/w tools were) available AND reports of OS bugs minimal.s  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,- Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:12:44 -0700m1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>eR Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...)2 Message-ID: <3B380BBC.225603B@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>   Warren Spencer wrote:o  H > Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensingA > Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  My K > understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubt restrictionsa > apply.  8   The transfer of employees isn't exactly non-exclusive.   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US( Tucson, AZ                    Web       " http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:23:00 -0000a- From: wspencer@nospam.ap.org (Warren Spencer)cR Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 (was: Alpha design team...)3 Message-ID: <90CC5AAEDwspenceraporg@207.126.101.97>c  * n.rieck@sympatico.ca (Neil Rieck) wrote in1 <W5ZZ6.17183$yy2.1947936@news20.bellglobal.com>: .   >s; >"Warren Spencer" <wspencer@nospam.ap.org> wrote in messages. >news:90CBE5720wspenceraporg@207.126.101.97... >eI >> Capellas made it clear in the NYC announcement that they are licensingsB >> Intel to use the Alpha technology on a non-exclusive basis.  My? >> understanding is that Q *could* license others, but no doubta >> restrictions apply. >> >> wsm >oF >This is very good news to me (because of firewall problems at work, II >haven't yet seen a replay of the NYC announcement). It is my belief thataH >EPIC (IA-64) is an immature and unproven architecture. Compaq will haveE >to convince me that EPIC is better than Alpha just as Digital had touH >convince me the Alpha was better than VAX, and VAX was better than PDP.I >Many of us wouldn't touch any of these new technologies until proven s/w-5 >tools were available AND reports of OS bugs minimal.d >h >Neil Rieck  >Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >Ontario, Canada.i" >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ >  >t >   C A streaming video of the NYC announcement is available at this url:p  > http://webevents.broadcast.com/wsp/index.asp?nEventID=380&loc=  " I found this link at www.intel.com   ws   -- n Warren Spencer   <<< My opinions are my own >>>   ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:09:04 +0200 (MET DST)r& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?-6 Message-ID: <200106260604.IAA22018@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  D if Compaq real plan to sale the Alpha design team, I think they killC themself. If I red the finances right, Compaq did made 80% of their C profit with the Alphas and only 20% with the PCs. So it is very im--B portant, that the design team is still Compaq and do their best toD push the chip design, so that they could attack Sun. Sun server saleE did growth more times then Compaqs and the reasson is, that they say, F we do have the competition, if they do or if they do not. Alpha designB team do have the competition to get back the processor leadership.) Lets do it (1GHz Sun is out, Alpha too?).c   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:53:23 +0200 (MET DST)c& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?n6 Message-ID: <200106260648.IAA23024@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  A just I did red the bad news. Intel win the monopoly game. I can'td@ belive nothing of Compaqs agreement. Two years ago, they did sayA Windows on Alpha is our strategical platform (springtime). At theaB end of tis year (April, April) they did say we will no longer sup-@ port Windows on Alpha. Q1 of 2001 they did show us the long timeA roadmap of the Alpha Technology with the EV7, EV8 and EV9 design.r> Yesterday, they said April,April EV7 is the deadline. and 2004? is Alphas death. At they Q1 of next year or 2002 they will say: @ we will support OpenVMS in a long direction. Why should I belive@ that? I think that they have plans to murder OpenVMS. In case of? this I will say to the leader of our institute: don't buy AlphahE anymore, go away from Compaq. It's better to buy Sun or AMD processor 7 based host, then to play the monopoly game of Intel/MS.s   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 06:02:20 -0700& From: oli@oli.is (Olafur Gunnlaugsson)1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? = Message-ID: <112d64c0.0106260502.664ed9bb@posting.google.com>w  V John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> wrote in message news:<sb3748e5.002@aaas.org>...L > IBM now owns DB/2 and Informix, both pretty sub-standard RDBMSes compared F > to Oracle, but they have a pretty large install base none the less.  > D Well, over here DB/2 outperforms Oracle by quite a margin, long term7 stability and 3party support have yet to be tested tho.r     > G > Windows NT is the evil twin brother of OS/2. Yes, OS/2 lacked driver eI > support, but all the good stuff ended up there, and when MS took their lI > toys and left the sandbox they threw things together (NTFS the bastard bJ > ripoff of HPFS). OS/2 also had REXX, and you'll be happy to know when I J > worked at the White House, Secret Service wouldn't let me in a building H > until I scanned my keycard and entered my pin (all run by OS/2). That , > system was in service for almost 10 years.  F NTFS is not related to HPFS, and to this day  do not understand why M$F choose the inferior NTFS to HPFS386 which they developed and not IBM !  F HPFS386 has intelligent caching, fragmentation resistance, etc etc all4 lacking in NTFS, and the performance is much better.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:59:30 -0500s+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>b1 Subject: RE: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?fL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1FEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]   > Christopher Smith wrote:  ; > > time of its birth (and of its death).  It died because i > microshaft, after   @ > He, he, don't call the zombies dead! There are more OS/2 users# > out there than VMS boxes running.:   Oh.  Good point.  A > The architecture of OS/2 had at least at a certain level a veryc; > modern aproach, the workbench or workplace shell (I don'tt@ > remember clearly) was oo. But the design underneath was ratherA > outdated and tied to the 80286 protected mode operating scheme.    I can agree with that.  / > > I don't believe NT is that far along yet...p  B > I might be that the kernel of NT if really strongly influence by? > Dave Cuttler is better than the kernel of OS/2. Technically IaB > would agree if someone stated that at the services level OS/2 is  J That as well, but I'd add that there's not really a way to separate the NTI kernel, which may work well enough, from all of the sludge that floats on  top of it ;)  > > And because there is this strange statement at the end still@ > around: IBM failed miserably if they couldn't enlarge the OS/2< > user base enough with their own customers alone to get the? > necessary market share. This is an example of IBM acting very-! > clueless with many respects to.l  K I'll agree with that, too.  I will say, though, that IBM marketing seems toiL have changed some recently.  I was very amused with their "spraypainting the sidewalk" campaign :)s   Regards,   Chrisf    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");- '-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:44:10 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>F Subject: Decnet IV vs. DECnet V (was: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium)6 Message-ID: <1010626063758.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  , On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, John Macallister wrote:  H > >did this mean that OpenVMS DECnet IV will be ported too? We don't useF > >DECnet V and I do not like to do. If it will not be ported to IA64, > >OpenVMS is death for me.l > L > DECnet V contains DECnet IV but it's well hidden. Perhaps the new glasnostN > re VMS marketing will ensure that clear instructions on how to set up DECnetN > V with only DECnet IV functionality will be provided. I think, however, mostJ > people will also want DECnet/IP but that, too, is easy once you have the > (simple) instructions. > L > I think the best thing we, as VMS users/providers, can do at the moment isM > provide positive feedback to Compaq on iVMS. Optimism should reign supreme:aK > we don't want to provide any ammunition for any doubters remaining withina	 > Compaq.  >  > John  F John, by this do you mean that DECnet V can talk directly to DECnet IVD nodes (no intervening protocol translation or routers required), andH that is possible to not use the OSI stack, but only the DECnet IV stack?  E Or do you mean that if you configure DECNET V correctly, you can make C it look like DECnet IV (i.e. use familiar NCP commands to configure  and monitor it)?  D DECnet V does work fine with DECnet IV nodes, except for a few minorC problems (I've never gotten a DECRouter-250 to download from a Ph 5lD MOP server, except by bizzare intervention, but once it's booted, itG will happily route (as a Ph 4 Level 2 router) between 2 LANS containingsH only Ph 5 nodes.  Also, they broke "$ SET HOST" to RSTS/E (Ph 4) at someF point, and I'm not sure they ever fixed it.  I no longer have a RSTS/EF system to try it with.  But that's about it.  Everything else seems to
 work fine.  C Except for one remote cluster that I have access to (2 VAX 66x0's),hD everything here has been DECnet V for several years now.  During the? transition, there have been no significant problems.  User mode>A code and command files are transparent.  (Except much longer nodea names are legal.)   B The problems I have had (and probably what the original poster wasB alluding to) are with NCL.  I still don't have a good feel for it.A I think the worst problems are, especially in the online help, itlD is hard to distinguish required syntax (commands?) from placeholdersA (variables?)  For example, suppose I want to look at the ethernetaA counters.  Pretty obviously, this is a "show" command.  From longED experience, I know the ethernet stuff in NCL is refered to "csmacd".? (I don't know if other circuits that also do carrier-sense witheB collision detect, for example FDDI? or real, genuine classic Aloha+ net, would also be called "csmacd" or not.)a  > In NCL, help show reveals "csma-cd" as a possible continuation> to "show".  (I don't know whether to call these options, args,< commands, qualifiers, or what.  There is a distinct language> problem with NCL.)  "show csma-cd" gives the current time, but@ nothing else.  At least it isn't invalid, so we are on the rightB track.  "show csma-cd all" gives the time and the characteristics,? which consist solely of the version number "T1.0.1"  (Does this|< mean VMS V7.2-1 ships with a field test version of DECnet??)  = "Show csma-cd *" gives "unrecognized command".  Back to help.c   "help show csma-cd" gives:   SHOW  	   csma-cda    ,        show  [node node-id] csma-cd  version5                                      all [attributes].8                                      all characteristics          Example:b          show csma-cd allI  ? Which is what I already tried.  Here's version.  Maybe it's theiH only characteristic?  Or maybe I need "show csma-cd all *" or "all char"> No, "all char" gives the same display as "all".  "all *" gives@ another "unrecognized command".  Maybe you have to say "all foo"B where "foo" is the name of some legal attribute, which of course I don't know.a  6 But there is more to the "help show csma-cd" output...D After the example (which isn't really an example, because it doesn't> tell you what to expect for output from the command), it says:  %     Additional information available:7  ,     Characteristic        port       station  B Okay, "help show csma-cd char" says the only characteristic is the version.  No help.   "Help show csma-cd port" says:  &          show [node node-id] csma-cd -@                        port port-name  attribute [,attribute...]7                                        all [attributes] 3                                        all counterse6                                        all identifiers1                                        all statusg  >          The port-name can be either a simple name to uniquely>          identify a particular PORT instance, or a wildcard to*          identify multiple PORT instances.            Examples:  .          show csma-cd port CSMACD$ETA_0010 all             show csma-cd port * all        '       Additional information available:n  "       Counters   Identifier Status    > Looks like we're on the right track.  There are even counters.< I'm not sure what a "port" is.  Is it an ethernet interface?< I also have no idea what the names of the ports are and from? the desctiption of the syntax, I can't tell for sure if "port",i= "port-name" or "attribute" is a keyword or something you neede9 to substitute.  However, the examples help some here.  (I ; know the stuff in square brackets is optional.  At least, IU; know the "[node node-id]" is optional and allows you to seee6 stuff on other nodes, like the NCP "tell node" syntax.   Okay, lets try it:   NCL> show csma-cd port * all  8 Whoa!!! tons of stuff....  but wait, repeating patterns.; It seems to be printing information about a bunch of ports,l# each starting off with a name like:-   Identifiers-  7     Name                              = CSMACD$EWA_0011   ; Well, EWA0: is my ethernet interface.  Aha!  There seems tof9 be one of these for each "EWAnn:" pseudo device that getse9 created from EWA0: when you assign a channel to it.  (DCL 5 show device ewa0:/full says it is a template device.)s  > So we seem to be getting some counters, but I don't see thingsA like Collisions, etc.  I see counters for "octets" received/sent,n> PDU's received/sent, multicasts, etc.  Here once again we have? a language problem.  Why do they call bytes "octets" and why dos, they call packets (or frames?) "PDUs"?  Ugh!  > Okay, ports seem to be application-level interfaces (but there> exist EWA devices, e.g. EWA12:, which don't have correspondingA ports.  Oh, DCL show device/full shows they belong to TCPWARE...)iD There are also some CSMACD$EWA_nnnn's which don't have corresponding< EWAnnn: devices, in particular _0001 and _0003.  Mysterious.  B Well Ports are quite right, lets try stations.  (With apologies toA Arlo Guthrie, "remember stations?  This post is about stations.")s   Stab in the dark:e   show csmacd station * alld  B Yup, there's my counters.  Collisions and other error counters are all zero.  Looks good.  1     Unrecognized Individual Destination PDUs = 39 3     Unrecognized Multicast Destination PDUs = 22995r  ? Something must be probing the system for various protocols, butg= it's been up since May 5.  Probably someone's PC.  (Blame ally mysterious behaviour on PC's.)  8 So there's your command.  Try remembering it in October.    = Now the same thing in NCP would be "show known line counters" ; and/or "show known circuit counters"  (Don't currently havet? a Ph 4 node to try it on...)  Probably line counters, which are  at a lower layer than circuits.   < So I found it, but it took quite a while.  Worse because the@ online help doesn't explain concepts such as ports and stations,< and these are not keywords I would guess in a million years.  ; If I didn't know about csma-cd (or is it csmacd), as havinga? something to do with Ethernet, it would have taken much longer, ? as I would have had to plow through all the "show foo" commandso5 looking for something pointed in the right direction.n  2 You get used to it, but you don't have to like it.5 It's kind of like playing Adventure, without the fun.e8 You try all possible commands and hope the troll doesn't kill you in the mean time.   -- h John SantosA Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:59:12 GMTe. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>J Subject: Re: Decnet IV vs. DECnet V (was: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium): Message-ID: <AG%Z6.7356$P5.2810446@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  + John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messagee0 news:1010626063758.38769A-100000@Ives.egh.com...> > So I found it, but it took quite a while.  Worse because theB > online help doesn't explain concepts such as ports and stations,> > and these are not keywords I would guess in a million years. >e= > If I didn't know about csma-cd (or is it csmacd), as havingiA > something to do with Ethernet, it would have taken much longer,uA > as I would have had to plow through all the "show foo" commandss7 > looking for something pointed in the right direction.  > 4 > You get used to it, but you don't have to like it.7 > It's kind of like playing Adventure, without the fun.a: > You try all possible commands and hope the troll doesn't > kill you in the mean time. >c > --
 > John Santosr  J I second that.  John is not a lone-customer having problems reading online help.g  E "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike."   Oooh, nowcH there's a thought.  Was NCL crafted by the same people who wrote ADVENT? <doh!>  5 (Like my new sig?  I think I'll keep it for a while.)w Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/K "Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!" (Anonymous Alpha Engineer)u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:23:07 GMTi3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam>o1 Subject: E-mail addresses in Enterprise Directoryn. Message-ID: <%00_6.8499$IQ2.14349@news.iol.ie>  
 Greetings,  F I have been playing with the Compaq Enterprise Directory for eBusinessF (X500/LDAP server) that is now bundled with VMS 7.3.  In particular, IJ wanted to set up entries so that LDAP enabled clients could look up e-mail directories.  J I have set up entries in the class organizationalperson, but whereas it isL happy for me to define attributes of telephone number, fax number even telexG number, it doesn't seem to to known about e-mail address.  I see in the L appendix that there is an attribute called rfc822mailbox, but it won't allow- me to set this attribute for this entry type.x  E Now it's possible to modify the default schema, but I must be missingnJ something obvious.  Various mail clients allow you to lookup entries in anI LDAP server, so which attribute does it look up ?  What have other peopleWJ done to store e-mail addresses on entries in the Compaq X400/LDAP server ?I Surely something that supports telex and fax numbers also supports e-mailm! addresses without customization ?i  # As always many thanks for any help.f  L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --H Tom Wade    | EMail: T.Wade@vms.eurokom.nospam.ie  (all domain mailers).G EuroKom     | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=iec& 30, Dale Rd | Tel:   +353 (1) 278-7878& Stillorgan  | Fax:   +353 (1) 278-78793 Co Dublin   | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimer @ Ireland     | Tip:         "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 00:00:28 -0700+ From: rob.johnson@bigfoot.com (Rob Johnson) / Subject: Re: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1 = Message-ID: <8b460d3f.0106252300.12bb1691@posting.google.com>o  F I did (although I don't have compaq support). They were very nice, andF chatted for a long time, but after discovering that I am using an EMC F switch their attitude was ' our responsibility stops there'. And don'tE suggest lgging a call with EMC - ever heard of a chocolate fireguard?    Rob.      T Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<3B37F4C2.7D97FF3@wi.rr.com>...C > People always yell at me when I question the wisdom of connectingn > non-Compaq storage topI > an OpenVMS system.  They always pound this line down my throat: "Compaql > and EMC will workd" > together to resolve any issues." > J > Call Compaq.  Log a call.  Report back when you have a working solution.E > Then I'll stop questioning the use of EMC storage with VMS systems.u >  > -scott >  > Rob Johnson wrote: > 6 > > Does  anyone have the above configuration working?H > > I have an ES40 with a KGPSA-CA connected to an EMC switch (16 port),G > > which is then connected to an EMC (8430). The EMC is visible on the H > > switch, as far as I know ( it appears in the nameserver gui, or if I > > enter nsShow using telnet)G > > but the VMS box just hangs when I try to boot it when it is plugged6J > > into the switch. (It'll boot OK when it isn't plugged into the switch)F > > I've applied the FIBRE_SCSI patch, along with UPDATE,PCSI and SYS. > >/ > > TIAo > >  > > Rob.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:11:15 +1000 , From: Malcolm Wade <Malcolm.Wade@asx.com.au>/ Subject: RE: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1nH Message-ID: <A8854B7F33E5D3119FDA00508B6A8C63052327DC@ASX235.asx.com.au>   Rob,  L Now I know nothing about EMC switch etc so this comes from connecting ES40's* to Brocade/Compaq switches and HSG80's ...   I What do you see from the ES40 console when you issue a wwidmgr -show wwidtH command (I think that's the command format).  Can you see the LUN you'reA expecting to boot off?  Can you see ANY LUNS?  Have you setup thetJ appropriate boot path(s)?  Has it changed with the addition of the switch?  I With Compaq re-badged Brocade switches there's the issue of zoning on the # switches; is this the case for EMC?    Cheers,r Malcolm    > -----Original Message-----@ > From: rob.johnson@bigfoot.com [mailto:rob.johnson@bigfoot.com]% > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:11 PMe > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma- > Subject: EMC fibre disk on ES40 + VMS 7.2-1- >  > 4 > Does  anyone have the above configuration working?F > I have an ES40 with a KGPSA-CA connected to an EMC switch (16 port),E > which is then connected to an EMC (8430). The EMC is visible on theBF > switch, as far as I know ( it appears in the nameserver gui, or if I > enter nsShow using telnet)E > but the VMS box just hangs when I try to boot it when it is pluggedaH > into the switch. (It'll boot OK when it isn't plugged into the switch)D > I've applied the FIBRE_SCSI patch, along with UPDATE,PCSI and SYS. >  > TIAr >  > Rob. >    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:12:21 -0700' From: piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers)eY Subject: Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form  on line: = Message-ID: <be44b12d.0106252212.71023acd@posting.google.com>n  k "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message news:<3B37A684.BBD97812@clarityconnect.com>...h4 > BADLANADR,  bad LAN address form on line: 'string' >  >   Facility:     AMDS, DECamds  > I >   Explanation:  The DECamds security file parsing routine has uncoveredl > a A >       security triplet with a LAN address that it cannot parse.p > I >   User Action:  Edit either the Data Analyzer (AMDS$CONSOLE_ACCESS.DAT)l > orC >       the Data Provider (AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT) security file tot >       correct the line.  >lF I have seen this information found using help/message BADLANADR, but IB cannot find any reference to a device EIA0 in both files. In other3 words I still do not know what causes this message.a  
 Greetings,   Piet Timmers >  >  > Piet Timmers wrote:h > >  > > $ @amds$startup restart  > > K > >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.aC > > %AMDS-I-RMSHUT, stopping Data Provider processing for this nodee8 > > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider shutdown successful > > K > >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.-D > > %AMDS-I-RMSTART, starting Data Provider processing for this node9 > > %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line: EIA0s0 > > %AMDS-I-LOADSECDB, loading security database7 > > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider startup successfuln > > 5 > > Any suggestion what this means, and how to solve?M > >  > > Greetings, > >  > > Piet Timmers   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:23:58 GMT 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> Y Subject: Re: Error message question:    %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line: a2 Message-ID: <3B388DED.A2E49DC6@clarityconnect.com>  E This message is not talking about the EIA0 device itself but the data C that is in those files.  One of the variations of the AMDS securityeB triplet is to use the MAC address for security authorization.  The format should be as followst   08-00-2b-03-23-cd\1decamds\r  D These different formats are documented in those access files (unlessG someone has changed them).  Lines with ! are comments obviously.  So onoH your system look in each of these files at the lines w/o a leading ! andF see if there is a badly formatted triplet using the lan address.  AlsoA look at the triplets on all systems on the network that have AMDSl loaded.n   Piet Timmers wrote:o > m > "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message news:<3B37A684.BBD97812@clarityconnect.com>...n6 > > BADLANADR,  bad LAN address form on line: 'string' > > ! > >   Facility:     AMDS, DECamdsf > >nK > >   Explanation:  The DECamds security file parsing routine has uncovered  > > a C > >       security triplet with a LAN address that it cannot parse.y > >eK > >   User Action:  Edit either the Data Analyzer (AMDS$CONSOLE_ACCESS.DAT)o > > orE > >       the Data Provider (AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT) security file toy > >       correct the line.h > > H > I have seen this information found using help/message BADLANADR, but ID > cannot find any reference to a device EIA0 in both files. In other5 > words I still do not know what causes this message.o >  > Greetings, >  > Piet Timmers > >n > >r > > Piet Timmers wrote:t > > >m > > > $ @amds$startup restartd > > >aM > > >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.IE > > > %AMDS-I-RMSHUT, stopping Data Provider processing for this nodew: > > > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider shutdown successful > > > M > > >  Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.eF > > > %AMDS-I-RMSTART, starting Data Provider processing for this node; > > > %AMDS-W-BADLANADR, bad LAN address form on line: EIA0l2 > > > %AMDS-I-LOADSECDB, loading security database9 > > > %AMDS-S-RMSUCCESS, Data Provider startup successful  > > >t7 > > > Any suggestion what this means, and how to solve?  > > >o > > > Greetings, > > >I > > > Piet Timmers   -- AD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:53:43 +1000c( From: Greg Rudd <grudd@mail.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: First lost sale0 Message-ID: <3B383177.E534A103@mail.usyd.edu.au>  H You should forward this to Michael C email but I doubt he will read it!!   Rich Jordan wrote:  L > VAX upgrade, single node to 2-node Alpha SCSI cluster, supporting a CA appK > and custom code.  Quotes were going out this Friday,  with a certainty of F > one or another option being purchased.  Customer called with lots ofL > questions and angst, and stated upgrade on hold, probably dead, due to theN > Compaq announcement and their management reaction to it.  This site had justM > gotten its VMS confidence back up to reasonable levels, and the upgrade hada. > displaced previous plans to move to Solaris. > L > I know two nodes and storage is a flyspeck to Compaq, but it was important  > to us.  Thanks a lot, Mikey C. >y	 > Sigh...s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:50:34 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: First lost sale, Message-ID: <3B383EC7.28D99105@videotron.ca>   Greg Rudd wrote: > J > You should forward this to Michael C email but I doubt he will read it!!  K What's the use ?  They may not have great vision and may depend on guidance K from Microsoft and Intel, but they have good accountants. They have already N written off any new sales of Alpha based systems for the next couple of years.K They know they will sell a few to shops who absolutely need to upgrade, but  that is about it.   N They took the decision knowing full well what the impact was going to be. NoteK their very agressive growth plans for the service business by spending $500 O million to acquire other companies that will bring instant replacement profits.   I And they know full well that existing support contracts will go down at a L specific rate as customers migrate away. DIGITAl has accounting records thatI show the impact on the books when VMS customers migrate away with variousl= advertising scenarios that have occured in the past 10 years.n  L There is nothing that can be done, except ask the federal trade commision toK block this move. Consider that Compaq is based in the home state of the guy N who was selected to live in the white house. Doubtful anytyhing would be done.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:58:50 GMTi= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: First lost sale0 Message-ID: <009FE195.EAE1F817@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ] In article <i5VZ6.12778$j02.185386@news.goodnet.com>, "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net> writes: K >VAX upgrade, single node to 2-node Alpha SCSI cluster, supporting a CA appoJ >and custom code.  Quotes were going out this Friday,  with a certainty ofE >one or another option being purchased.  Customer called with lots offK >questions and angst, and stated upgrade on hold, probably dead, due to the M >Compaq announcement and their management reaction to it.  This site had justtL >gotten its VMS confidence back up to reasonable levels, and the upgrade had- >displaced previous plans to move to Solaris.h >dK >I know two nodes and storage is a flyspeck to Compaq, but it was importants >to us.  Thanks a lot, Mikey C.n >  >Sigh...  F Sorry to hear that, Rich.  I feared this sort rippling effect would beE the first wave of erosion of the VMS base.  It seems we are all "fly-y speck" to Compaq.  :(t  " --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            vO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:39:00 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a Subject: Re: First lost sale' Message-ID: <3B389E84.E30A2E35@fsi.net>e  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > _ > In article <i5VZ6.12778$j02.185386@news.goodnet.com>, "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net> writes:sM > >VAX upgrade, single node to 2-node Alpha SCSI cluster, supporting a CA appsL > >and custom code.  Quotes were going out this Friday,  with a certainty ofG > >one or another option being purchased.  Customer called with lots ofsM > >questions and angst, and stated upgrade on hold, probably dead, due to theoO > >Compaq announcement and their management reaction to it.  This site had justrN > >gotten its VMS confidence back up to reasonable levels, and the upgrade had/ > >displaced previous plans to move to Solaris.w > >nM > >I know two nodes and storage is a flyspeck to Compaq, but it was important ! > >to us.  Thanks a lot, Mikey C.b > >n
 > >Sigh... > H > Sorry to hear that, Rich.  I feared this sort rippling effect would beG > the first wave of erosion of the VMS base.  It seems we are all "fly-  > speck" to Compaq.  :(n  E A picture in a newspaper, whether it's the size of a postage stamp or C fills an entire page, is made up of "fly specks" - little dots thath together make up the image.n  G Draw what message you find in that - not sure what it means, just founda the analogy striking.h   -- n David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:08:01 -0400u2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: First lost sale. Message-ID: <3B38A551.89689CB9@mindspring.com>   Greg Rudd wrote:  I > You should forward this to Michael C email but I doubt he will read it!   :   Capellas may not read it but someone in his office will.:   I (finally!) got my Presario 1920 laptop fixed that way.8   (Of course, my mail to Capellas was a cc of my mail to5   columnist Henry Norr at the San Francisco Chronicleo6  describing my experiences with this particular Compaq   unit.)  ?   On the other hand, I doubt that the reading of your mail willt<   have one iota of impact on Compaq's plans. Capellas aside,?   the boys in Houston made it very clear to everyone in Digipaqt=   New England that we were "a declining feature", and WinklereA   et. al. have now simply achieved what they set out to do: Trashe@   out Digital. I migrated myself out of VMS Engineering and intoB   a Sun Solaris environment once I realized this; many other folks@   have made similar migrations (although the destinations vary).                AtlantN   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:08:11 -0400 , From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: FORTRAN questionr8 Message-ID: <hm5hjt8lpa6umu8rnpbco4fo2i9au9jkrr@4ax.com>  B On 25 Jun 2001 23:25 CDT, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:     > I >This particular change to the compiler was clearly big a mistake. It notmK >only doesn't do anything to help you, it actively hinders you. It would benL >fine as a warning, but making it an error was an error. F77 had not troubleI >figuring out what you were trying to do, so why can't F90 figure it out?i  @ The compiler is highlighting an error which was also an error inF Fortran 77.  True, our F77 compilers would just warn you about it, but> the reality is that executing code with this error can lead to unpredictable results.  D Our F90 compiler is better at picking up on such errors than the F77# compiler, and this is a good thing.e      - Steve Lionel (mailto:Steve.Lionel@compaq.com)  Fortran Engineeringh* High-Performance Technical Computing Group& Compaq Computer Corporation, Nashua NH  6 Compaq Fortran web site: http://www.compaq.com/fortran   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 12:58:17 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)D Subject: Re: FUD+ Message-ID: <9ha0t9$qeo$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>r  : In article <c3SZ6.6016$P5.2403890@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>,1  "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:r3 |> Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in messages& |> news:3B37D8C1.7817B9C4@rdrop.com...B |> > Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingF |> > to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you'reE |> > all doing his job for him, as usual.  What with Sun and layoffs,t6 |> > he may soon fear his own self becoming redundant. |>  I |> He doesn't have to.  Perchance he is a gentleman and is wise enough toi |> respect our mourning period?d |> i4 |> Nah, I suspect we'll hear from him shortly... ;^) |>  6 And then there's always the possibility that since the: Black Monday announcement his phone hasn't stopped ringing8 with new customer requests and he just doesn't have time for this group any more.  3 [ Not sure if this should end with a :-) or a :-( ]o   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:08:25 GMTe- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>e Subject: Re: FUDC Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106260906170.5295-100000@world.std.com>t  ) On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Dean Woodward wrote:h  ? > Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingtC > to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you'rew' > all doing his job for him, as usual. I  A Well stated. This newsgroup benefits Sun, et al, far more than it  benefits Compaq and VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:23:13 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> Subject: Re: FUD: Message-ID: <510_6.7520$P5.2824044@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  C No, Terry -- this newsgroup benefits Compaq CUSTOMERS.  It is not arJ marketing place for Compaq -- we are not shills echoing the holy mantra ofL "IA64 is better".  We are customers who have been burned, numerous times, by
 the Q and GQ.s  J We need to have a place to vent, to let our feelings be known.  After all, Compaq's not listening.   Either that, or they don't care.   Aaron- --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/K "Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!" (Anonymous Alpha Engineer)D    8 Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in message= news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0106260906170.5295-100000@world.std.com...a >w >h+ > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Dean Woodward wrote:t >EA > > Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingtE > > to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you'reo( > > all doing his job for him, as usual. > C > Well stated. This newsgroup benefits Sun, et al, far more than itt > benefits Compaq and VMS. >d   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:42:37 GMTi= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e Subject: Re: FUD0 Message-ID: <009FE1AC.CC7315FE@SendSpamHere.ORG>  s In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106260906170.5295-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:  >- > * >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Dean Woodward wrote: >t@ >> Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingD >> to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you're( >> all doing his job for him, as usual.  >nB >Well stated. This newsgroup benefits Sun, et al, far more than it >benefits Compaq and VMS.    ... and whose fault is that?  G Where are all of the Compaq folks -- short of the few VMS eng. regularseG here -- which should be here to squelch the FUD and quell the rebellionEG in light of this recent announcement?  They're probably busy looking at-F their stock option portfolios and planning ways to keep ahold of theirI leather-lined-easy-chair-mohogany-panelled-meeting-room-martini-guzzling-NF business-luncheon lifestyle after the Q goes the way of the dodo.  NOTF that their words will do us any good.  If they were all afflicted withG the Pinnochio probocis problem, they'd need an acre of clearance in alla  directions just to turn 360 deg.  G Where are those roadmaps today?  The new cartographers are drawing them 5 up at this moment... and all roads lead to Wintel. :(       --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            aO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.R   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 10:21:13 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)A Subject: Re: FUD* Message-ID: <9ha5op$557$1@lisa.gemair.com>  C In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106260906170.5295-100000@world.std.com>,e/ Terry C Shannon  <shannon@world.std.com> wrote:T >e >w* >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Dean Woodward wrote: > @ >> Um, guys? Anyone notice that Andrew hasn't had a single thingD >> to say about the Alpha -> Intel deal?  He doesn't need to, you're( >> all doing his job for him, as usual.  >vB >Well stated. This newsgroup benefits Sun, et al, far more than it >benefits Compaq and VMS.t >e  I His absence is more evidence of his marketing role.  His appearance wouldeH naturally elicit defensiveness on the part of many of the regulars here  toward VMS and Compaq.  F As it is, he can just sit back and enjoy watching us tearing down CPQ.   -Jordan Hendersonn jordan@greenapple.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:31:01 -0500-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: FUD' Message-ID: <3B389CA5.C5B8D3B2@fsi.net>u  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > [snip]K > leather-lined-easy-chair-mohogany-panelled-meeting-room-martini-guzzling-o  > business-luncheon lifestyle...  H When R. R. Donnelley was still preparing their new digs at 77 W. Wacker,B we got a sort of tour of the "executive" offices on the 9th floor:/ walls, floors *AND* ceiling - all done in teak!m   Obscene!   -- l David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:16:21 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)L Subject: Re: FUD0 Message-ID: <009FE1B9.E453EF29@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <3B389CA5.C5B8D3B2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:n' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:l	 >> [snip]AL >> leather-lined-easy-chair-mohogany-panelled-meeting-room-martini-guzzling-! >> business-luncheon lifestyle...T > I >When R. R. Donnelley was still preparing their new digs at 77 W. Wacker,tC >we got a sort of tour of the "executive" offices on the 9th floor:n0 >walls, floors *AND* ceiling - all done in teak! >f	 >Obscene!e  J That's so the mgt. morons feel at ease in both the corporate meeting roomsJ and on the corporate yacht repleat with the 24 carat gold vomit basins for the sea sick executive.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMm            oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:09:50 +0200 (MET DST) & From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>( Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium6 Message-ID: <200106260804.KAA23379@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  E did this mean that OpenVMS DECnet IV will be ported too? We don't useDC DECnet V and I do not like to do. If it will not be ported to IA64,t OpenVMS is death for me.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:08:56 +0100 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>( Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to ItaniumN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCF@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  F >did this mean that OpenVMS DECnet IV will be ported too? We don't useD >DECnet V and I do not like to do. If it will not be ported to IA64, >OpenVMS is death for me.s  J DECnet V contains DECnet IV but it's well hidden. Perhaps the new glasnostL re VMS marketing will ensure that clear instructions on how to set up DECnetL V with only DECnet IV functionality will be provided. I think, however, mostH people will also want DECnet/IP but that, too, is easy once you have the (simple) instructions.  J I think the best thing we, as VMS users/providers, can do at the moment isK provide positive feedback to Compaq on iVMS. Optimism should reign supreme:uI we don't want to provide any ammunition for any doubters remaining withins Compaq.u   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)u   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:29:36 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)MF Subject: Full port of VMS to Itanium (was: What does Alphas dead mean)3 Message-ID: <ZC+G$G5F6fse@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3B381879.A839700@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:h  B I would recommend reading existing entries in the newsgroup beforeC posting.  Fred Kleinsorge who works in VMS Development stated todayhA that they were told there would be additional people involved fortB the porting effort.  Whether than means someone else would work on@ porting and Fred would do his normal work, or Fred would work on@ porting and someone else would do Fred's normal work is probably? not decided at this point (and will vary as one substitutes forb7 the name "Fred" the names of others in VMS Development.   P > While folks are tied up doing the ports, does the development they'd otherwise > be doing stagnate? >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> oG >> In article <3B373633.80009@cli.de>, "B.Eckstein" <be@cli.de> writes:nC >> > "Compaq also said it will consolidate its entire 64-bit family 9 >> > of servers on the Itanium processor family by 2004."  >> >> >> > http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/presspaq/062501/index.html >> >> >> > As there is no VMS an IA64 it it dead by 2004, isn't it ? >> u, >> Not if one believes the press release at: >> uC >>         http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.htmla >> uP >> "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop KernelM >>  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family."a -- .N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:23:28 +0010w% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au J Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium (was: What does Alphas dead mean)5 Message-ID: <01K58FGRBKN6001ZK9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Larry,  : >In article <3B381879.A839700@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil  ><cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:o >vC >I would recommend reading existing entries in the newsgroup beforemD >posting.  Fred Kleinsorge who works in VMS Development stated todayB >that they were told there would be additional people involved forC >the porting effort.  Whether than means someone else would work onrA >porting and Fred would do his normal work, or Fred would work oneA >porting and someone else would do Fred's normal work is probably @ >not decided at this point (and will vary as one substitutes for8 >the name "Fred" the names of others in VMS Development. >eH >> While folks are tied up doing the ports, does the development they'd 
 >otherwise >> be doing stagnate?s  G I don't think that what Fred said implied either way, this was a valid VJ question.  Employing extra people does not mean that they and/or existing L staff are not involved in the port.  The new and the old staff could all be N deployed on this massive porting effort, to the detriment of work on existing  platforms -- even bug-fixes.   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:05:44 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)d) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.d3 Message-ID: <ktgcCcWqzMyL@eisner.encompasserve.org>r   In article <DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA3715304C906C5@mbsus228.mbc.com>, "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> writes: H > Wouldn't it have made more sense to have ported OpenVMS, Tru64, NSK toL > Itanium and have the working incarnations of the OS's ready to demonstrateM > *BEFORE* announcing the abandonment of the only chip platforms they operatea > on.r  F It would seem the money that would have been spent on EV8 will insteadE be spent on porting to IA64.  Compaq does not have an infinite amountp3 of money, even though they have more than you or I."   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:14:02 GMTo* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.a+ Message-ID: <3B382877.F806E663@prodigy.net>w   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  <snip> > L > While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to( > see VMS on a "open" hardware platform. >  <snip>  L I seriously question whether Compaq is going to want to see VMS running on,  e.g, Dell hardware.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:26:36 GMTo* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. + Message-ID: <3B382B69.23B991C1@prodigy.net>n  K Don't forget that the IA-64 is VLIW, and requires a lot of compiler smarts.s5 I think getting a solid compiler could take a while. t   Hunter Goatley wrote:t > P > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:41:14 -0300, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: > H > >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha.: > >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium. > >rP > As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsP > from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasR > trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closelyP > to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilerJ > back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as aO > recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to Alpha O > wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEMmN > back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture, > once GEM has been fixed.)- > ! > That's what I hope, anyway.....  >  > Hunter > ------; > Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ ; > goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/n   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:37:32 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.n3 Message-ID: <SGgUyMeWYjLS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3B382877.F806E663@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> w > <snip> >> gM >> While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance ton) >> see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.d >>   > <snip> > N > I seriously question whether Compaq is going to want to see VMS running on,  > e.g, Dell hardware.   A While hardware revenues are nice, so is software support revenue.pC Some companies have a fixation on buying hardware from a particularoC manufacturer, and no such rules about software (and other companiesm are different, I know).u  C Would Compaq prefer to get $n from a Dell box or $0.  I know that Iq% prefer $n (for positive values of n).-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:37:06 GMT * From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.n+ Message-ID: <3B382DDF.8F1DAB9A@prodigy.net>.   Jordan Henderson wrote:p <snip> > J > People have been jumping up and down, red-in-the-face, screaming in thisJ > newsgroup for VMS on commodity hardware.  It looks like Compaq has takenI > a HUGE step in that direction and many of the same people are screaming?& > "woe is me, the end of VMS is nigh!" >  <snip>  N It is a little ironic that the particular commodity hardware is the result of  an HP initiative, IMHO.>   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:41:34 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <tUwYBm9pFe7U@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  X In article <3B382B69.23B991C1@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:M > Don't forget that the IA-64 is VLIW, and requires a lot of compiler smarts.s7 > I think getting a solid compiler could take a while. G >  > Hunter Goatley wrote:r >> (Q >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:41:14 -0300, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  >> sI >> >I believe will happend all that troubles of porting the VAX to Alpha. ; >> >A lot of companies will not port from Alpha to Itanium.- >> >Q >> As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsmQ >> from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasdS >> trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closelytQ >> to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilersK >> back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as a.P >> recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to AlphaP >> wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEMO >> back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture,$ >> once GEM has been fixed.)  ? Certainly they must have used GEM in their IA64 experiments fori> Tru64/Digital Unix.  They must use GEM for the IA32 version of= Compaq Fortran, and they provided some compiler to Oracle fora< their experiment at Rdb on IA32.  The GEM part seems further, advanced than any other part of the process.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:43:06 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)m) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <7jfaWkA9TNBu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3B382DDF.8F1DAB9A@prodigy.net>, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes: > Jordan Henderson wrote:r > <snip> >>  K >> People have been jumping up and down, red-in-the-face, screaming in thisMK >> newsgroup for VMS on commodity hardware.  It looks like Compaq has takenAJ >> a HUGE step in that direction and many of the same people are screaming' >> "woe is me, the end of VMS is nigh!"n >>   > <snip> > P > It is a little ironic that the particular commodity hardware is the result of  > an HP initiative, IMHO..   Imagine how HP feels !!!   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:50:08 GMTH* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.5+ Message-ID: <3B3830ED.1E82313D@prodigy.net>4   Would you care to elaborate?     Bob Koehler wrote: > z > In article <OFFB99FC77.F49E9947-ON03256A76.0049F747@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: > L > > Bad point of view:   I believe a lot of customres will jump to long-time > > processors> > >                                      as SPARC or Power PC. > ; > I think both PowerPC and IA-64 will easily outlive SPARC.  > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationd? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group G >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:58:59 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)i) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <YeM9$uYXP4VI@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  { In comp.unix.tru64 article <2d9340de.0106252109.61073a24@posting.google.com>, morton_john@hotmail.com (John Morton) writes:i  D > Compaq is much more devious than I ever could have imagined.  Does: > this mean we will be running on code developed in China? > 6 > http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/news/idc/20606.htm > 2 > Tru64's Future Is on Alpha, Not on Intel's IA64  > F > Compaq recently disclosed its decision to keep the 64-bit Tru64 UnixG > operating system (formerly known as Digital Unix) on Alpha alone. TheJF > company decided not to "productize" the Tru64 port to Intel's 64-bitG > IA64 microprocessor, although dev elopment on that port will continuecG > in China as part of a contractual agreement with a Chinese governmentnC > agency. This decision reduces the number of Unix server operatingeA > environments (SOEs) that have been announced for IA64 to three:'H > Hewlett-Packard's H P-UX, Sun's Solaris, and IBM/SCO/Sequent's Project > Monterey.' > G > Compaq announced in April that it would support Project Monterey UnixpD > on IA64 as an upgrade for the tens of thousands of Compaq ProLiantG > servers sold each year. That move stemmed from the fact that MontereyoE > will be the preferred upgrade path for long-t ime users of ProLiants@ > servers running SCO UnixWare. IDC believes that Compaq's April0 > decision forced the recent Tru64 move on IA64. > H > Business conditions were very different in January 1998, when the portH > of then-Digital Unix to IA64 was announced as part of Project Bravo byC > Digital Equipment Corp. Once Compaq acquired Digital Equipment inuC > mid-1998, it was forced to take a long, hard look at trimming the-G > number of overlapping product offerings in its portfolio and reducinglB > R&D costs. It would be difficult for one company -- Compaq -- toH > explain why it needed to sell two Unix operating systems for IA64. Had> > that been the case when IA64 shipped, it might have confusedC > independent software vendors (ISVs) considering ports to both thet) > Monterey/IA64 and Tru64/IA64 platforms.l > C > The decision to halt the Tru64/IA64 marketing effort has the dual C > effect of trimming development costs for Compaq's "value" serversnF > while simplifying Compaq's plans for IA64 as a platform for "volume"C > servers running Windows 2000, N ovell NetWare, Linux, and Project  > Monterey Unix. > H > There is one downside to the end of the Tru64/IA64 port that should beD > noted, however: It effectively leaves more than 5,000 fully 64-bit? > Unix applications temporarily stranded on the Alpha platform.FF > Together, those 5,000+ applications running on IA64 would have givenF > Compaq an early lead in its planned Tru64/IA64 rivalry with HP, Sun,D > and IBM. Instead, IDC expects that ISVs will recompile many of theH > Alpha-only applications so that they can be moved, over time, to other > vendors' Unix/IA64 platforms.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:56:37 +0100u8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFC8@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  4 > > Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?   L > That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that Alpha > does not?   K You'll be able to buy an Itanium system from "any computer shop". Who knowseG you may even be able to buy a VMS CD set from the shop too? The move to-K Itanium opens up a whole new world of opportunity for VMS that was excludedW from the VAX-Alpha setup.u  I I would like to think this is the end of the beginning for VMS as a WorldnI market player. Now that a sensible approach to hardware has been taken itpH will take another leap to provide a "Windows compatible" user interface.J Just as users didn't want weird hardware they don't want software which isK different from everyone else's and that is particularly true of third partym sofwtare vendors.<  K If the second, software, leap is taken in a timely manner it may herald thesH end of Microsoft as the dominant market player. The World may once againK know what it's like to have sofwtare which behaves in a predictable way ...D   John      B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)o     'o  o   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 10:09:32 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)y) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. ! Message-ID: <BRjzJEJAxQ4b@gaelic>   1 In article <3b378f71.12977230@news.process.com>, i/ goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:rP > As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsP > from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasR > trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closelyP > to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilerJ > back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as aO > recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to AlphamO > wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEMeN > back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture, > once GEM has been fixed.)   E I'm already thinking of recompiling the DECW archive on VMS IA64 ... d   It may be fun.   PatrickD --O ===============================================================================eO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)n4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:17:51 +0100f8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.nN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCA@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  G >1- Alpha is dead as of TODAY. Who in their right mind will invest in a: million>@ >dollar wildfire system today knowing the architecture is dead ?  H The reasons why people bought Alpha yesterday have not changed. It's theG software which is important: people bought Alphas not because they werepB Alphas but because they run VMS. Where once there was no long termH commercial future for either Alpha or VMS there is now, with the ItaniumH announcement, a whole new horizon in view. We'll have to wait and see of6 course but I wonder how long it will be before we see:                              iVMS    ?2   I never did take to OpenVMS.   John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:11:52 +0100r8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.mN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCD@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   > It is also a question ofF >  recertifying it, and duplicating/updating the support stuff such as >  documentation,r  I Of course software will have to be recertified as it has to be with everysF new release. However, duplicating the support stuff should simply meanG running the docs through a photocopier or, at most, changing OpenVMS toiI iVMS. The VMS docs I have are not VAX or Alpha specific: the one set doesiI for both. The VAX->Alpha transition was less than perfect because all VAXhH devices were not taken over to Alpha and there were some unnecessary VMSI changes in the transition (e.g. SYSGEN AUTO ALL to SYSMAN IO AUTO ) whichaH made some people believe that AlphaVMS and VAX/VMS were different OS's.   I Some people believed that a VAX-Alpha transition would be a major effort.,G For most people the effort involved was close to zero and most ordinary5; users couldn't tell whether they were on a VAX or an Alpha.d  G I think the people who worry so much about the Alpha-Itanium transitionnK would probably also have spent some time trying to tabulate the differences5I between VMS and OpenVMS. By the way, as a marketing shot in the launch of E the Alpha-Itanium transition, Compaq are running a competition to see J whether anyone can find more differences between VMS and iVMS than betweenK VMS and OpenVMS. The prize, I believe, is a kit which can be applied to anyp= version of the OS which makes user software compatible acrosssL VMS-OpenVMS-iVMS. Details are on the Compaq Web site but may be hard to findJ at the moment until the port to iVMS is complete. I understand that CompaqL will apply the kit to their Web site so that "page not found" errors will beL a thing of the past as there will be only one version of everything relating to VMS!g   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:16:11 +0010.% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au-) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.65 Message-ID: <01K58F7PG3CY001ZJZ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>u   >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >> a ><snip>e >> -M >> While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance tod) >> see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.n >> t ><snip>i >oM >I seriously question whether Compaq is going to want to see VMS running on, 0 >e.g, Dell hardware.  N It has been seriously suggested that Compaq is no longer interested in seeing H VMS running -- or Tru64.  The time frames suggest that they are after a @ death, and there is already a thread about a lost contract/sale.  K My greatest sympathy goes to people like Fred and Hoff.  The pay-packet is aN still there, but to work on a project that will die??  Many, many years ago I J did that, and it is soul destroying.  Isn't that a reason for Dave Cutler  going to Micro$oft?   K Over on comp.lang.fortran, Steve Lionel is expressing similar platitudes.  cL The personalities of the three mentioned (and others we know) are such that C they want to look after their customers, but how much will they be   ham-strung.l  N SL has said that of the compiler teams to go to Inhel, Fortran will be one of M the first.  Though I'm not a PC person, DVF -> CVF -> IVF???  A problem that  M (if I read him correctly) Steve has is how much they will be able to support  L their other platforms VMS and Tru64, perhaps even windows in the transition 3 (definitely my conjecture here re windows support).6   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:26:49 +0010:% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aus) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.o5 Message-ID: <01K58FKWU11U001ZK9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>   D >Would Compaq prefer to get $n from a Dell box or $0.  I know that I& >prefer $n (for positive values of n).    M Especially for large values of n :-)  Something like the old saw (in varying r2 combinations) 2+2 = 4, even for large values of 2.   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 04:12 CDTa' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.a- Message-ID: <26JUN200104121423@gerg.tamu.edu>p  9 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes...nI }I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.$M }Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.  I-J }believe that if you have gotten to Alpha, odds are it will be a recompile }and go. } K }Were you buying Alpha?  Or were you buying VMS?  I think that in the grandsK }scheme of things, you were buying OpenVMS for the things that it brings to M }the table... if we could build a VAX that was as fast as Alpha - you'd still  }be on VAX.o } K }While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance toa' }see VMS on a "open" hardware platform.r  @ So are you saying that we will be able to buy VMS to run on Dell
 IA64 systems?i  ? If not, then it isn't an "open" harware platform - just anotherH? proprietary hardware platform that happens to use a CPU made by6 Intel instead of Compaq.  G If so, then the "Open" in OpenVMS will be considerably more meaningful.l   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 04:52 CDTg' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)g) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.>- Message-ID: <26JUN200104520281@gerg.tamu.edu>,  9 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes... L }>That's an interesting remark, but what exactly does Itanic have that Alpha }>does not?  }  }Long term marketshare.m  D There is no evidence of this. Intel has killed off a number of other@ processors in the past. What heppens to VMS if that happens? HowC fast can you port VMS to whatever it is they might replace it with?d  L }Look.  I am an Alpha supporter.  I think that EV68 is the best processor onI }the market today.  I think EV7 will be a kick-ass chip, and system.  ThelK }Itanium has nothing on it.  Until recently, there was a strong question of>J }if they would *ever* get IA64 to work well enough to be interesting.  ButK }the recent benchmark numbers show that they willl be in the ballpark soon.a  H In the ballpark of what? Today's Alpha or the (what would have been) the Alpha of the same timeframe?  G I seriously doubt that the IA64 processor that will be current when EV8,@ would have show up will be in the same ballpark for performance.  @ Making the IA64 faster is not so easy - EPIC is a seriously iffy# architecture to bet your future on.6  C }So, project it out.  Sometime in the mid-late 2000's, IA64 is veryrK }competetive with Alpha on performance, but with HP and Microsoft on it, itnL }sells many times more than Alpha.  The price is lower than Alpha.  Not onlyJ }that, we don't have to build two seperate lines of HW for IA64 and Alpha.L }Lots cheaper.  Heck, *maybe*, just *maybe* it means that if we do it right,J }we could put VMS on any Itanium box that we want to qual it on, including }the "cheap" ones too.  D The problem is that if consolidating down to one type of hardware isE good, what makes you think that the people running your company won'tpD decide that consolidating down to one OS isn't just as good? Instead; of having NT, VMS, True64, Linux, and NSK, why not just NT?H  C And BTW - the price is not lower than Alpha. At least, not yet. You>G can actually buy a DS10 running VMS for what it costs to get an ItaniumtD based system running Windows. Yeah, the DS10 is slower - lots slowerB at floating point and somewhat less slow at integer (the Itanium'sG integer performance truely stinks) - but that is because Compaq doesn'trD do upgrades. Comapq should sell a DS10 with at least an 833MHz AlphaI and it should have the 1GHz version available from day one for that chipsrI availability. But it won't for purely marketing reasons. Likewise I doubtAE that the low end VMS system will see the fast upgrades that a PC seesrG (where the processor comes out and you can just use it) once it is IA64jD based either. The reason is the very same marketing reason: avoidingD having the high end system sales canibalized by the low end systems.  H }I'm pretty sure we can pull thins thing off.  It's just a matter of how }easy/hard it will be.  @ I'm certain that it is possible. I am just about as certain that is is not a good idea.  A I was considering buying some Compaq stock as it was looking very , cheap. I certainly will not be doing so now.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:20:25 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.$0 Message-ID: <009FE190.8CEB7C1E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <9h8eca$5vt$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:- >In article <9h8bl3$o4v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,u4 >David Mathog <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote: >>[snip] >>3 >>  ***COMPAQ MANAGEMENT WANTS THIS PORT TO FAIL***m >> >/K >That's as absurd as anything that's been posted here recently.  And that'sl >saying a LOT.  I As absurd as killing off Alpha and jumping on the me too intel bandwagon?t  G I don't see the future well for this Itanium processor with respect for G OpenVMS.  Compaq has given away key Alpha technology and intel will in-oI corporates pieces which fill in the gaps and holes in their sieve design. H When Compaq requires a certain enhancement to make an OpenVMS port a re-H ality, will intel put on the brakes and introduce these enhancements?  II see, if the aformentioned happens, other vendors having their way too andXH eventually the Itanium will become the equivalent Billybloatware in Sil-H icon.  Let's just call it Titanium now hope that there's a lifeboat that can rescue us..o    I >Compaq being unable to manage a port to the processor that it looks like L >everyone will be supporting in the future (see recent HP announcement, heckJ >even Sun has hedged their bets by having a working Solaris port _today_) D >will not bode well for their ability to sell into those high-marginC >Enterprise accounts that they are obviously trying to nurture with  >their entire new strategy.n   Compaq has a strategy?    I >People have been jumping up and down, red-in-the-face, screaming in thistI >newsgroup for VMS on commodity hardware.  It looks like Compaq has takeniH >a HUGE step in that direction and many of the same people are screaming% >"woe is me, the end of VMS is nigh!"f  E My feet have been planted firmly on the ground both figuratively and wD in reality.  I had and still have great faith in Alpha.  Digital didD it right in addressing the needs of OpenVMS, OSF-1 and that other M$E thing.  It was simple and the design was clean.  It improved on otherrC RISC technologies by observing other RISC designs and opting out oftB the implementations in their designs which hindered really stream-C lining the Alpha for performance.  I want OpenVMS on a solid, sound C bit of engineering so that it is stable and reliable and not neces- D sarily cheap.  I have a bit of the "commodity hardware" you speak ofD in my home (sprinkling holy water over the demon's seed as I mentionD it) and it is so "solid" that it sounds like a popcorn maker when it is in use.     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMg            qO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:24:27 -0700n1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.-3 Message-ID: <3B38006B.7FEA9CBE@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>:   Terry C Shannon wrote: > . > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Robert Deininger wrote: >RN > > Competent management and marketing.  But alpha has had the best engineers. > >C > G > Alpha's Omega was rendered inevitable by Digital's outright marketingVF > malfeasance and a string of Stupid Strategy Tricks. Compaq's initialJ > indecisiveness and tepid support for Alpha (and the support was far lessJ > than tepid amongst the Compaq Classic box-pushers) delayed a turn-aroundF > in the business, which actually has grown during the past two years. >  > Too little, too late.u    @   Compaq is a company in search of something they do well.  They couldn'tH   enhance the value of the Altavista search engine, so they sold it.  NoA   longer tops in PC manufacturing, they bought several Enterprise 	 companiescH   to change the company's vision.  Failing to do that well they now plan toA   buy several software and service companies... maybe they can dos	 somethinglF   with them.  You'd think with all the restructurings, they'd at least be   good at them by now!  F   Message to Michael Capellas:  Congratulations, you've won the RobertC   Palmer "Help, we've lost our core compentecy and we can't get up"h award!     Compaq is the next Lucent.   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US( Tucson, AZ                    Web       " http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:31:23 -0700 1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>0) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <3B38020B.6B9AD11F@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>u   Christopher Smith wrote:  K > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic being planned, we3' > may see another VMS-capable notebook.y    <   Do you REALLY think Compaq will allow OpenVMS on commodityD   hardware?  Think about it, remember the Alpha white boxes meant toE   run Windows NT and how they wouldn't run OpenVMS?  Compaq will mostoE   certainly have two Itanium server lines, a commodity-priced one for C   Windows NT-based systems and one that will be able to run OpenVMSEG   for substantially more money.  After all, that would mean competitionsF   with Microsoft.  My other prediction:  OpenVMS and Tru64 will not beB   able to run on Itanium servers of other manufacturers.  How muchK   support was there for Alpha clones?  Perhaps OpenVMS systems will require E   some special ROM, ala the old Mac OS ROM, I'm sure they'll think of    something.  L   OpenVMS engineering will never be given the resources to qualify commodityI   peripherals and graphics.  In the windows way, the manufacturers of the=J   peripherals and graphics write their own drivers... do you think they'll;   write one for VMS?  OpenVMS on a laptop again?  Dream on.   F   Without the hardware subsidy on OS development, how much more do you,   think people will have to pay for OpenVMS?   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:06:04 GMT== From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)=) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.e0 Message-ID: <009FE196.ED8525F5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ] In article <01K58F7PG3CY001ZJZ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:D >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>>  >><snip> >>> N >>> While I am, and remain, an Alpha supporter.  You now will have a chance to* >>> see VMS on a "open" hardware platform. >>>  >><snip> >>N >>I seriously question whether Compaq is going to want to see VMS running on,  >>e.g, Dell hardware.e >oO >It has been seriously suggested that Compaq is no longer interested in seeing tI >VMS running -- or Tru64.  The time frames suggest that they are after a  A >death, and there is already a thread about a lost contract/sale.t  G ...and for those of us here making our living off of VMS.  It's gettingwG harder and harder to mount this now lame once mighty and magestic steedM named VMS.     Career change time?  . --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:34:13 -0700 1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>n) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.u3 Message-ID: <3B3810C5.4C6A0CB1@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>g  $ Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: > ^ > In article <9h8eca$5vt$1@lisa.gemair.com>, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:  K > >Compaq being unable to manage a port to the processor that it looks likelN > >everyone will be supporting in the future (see recent HP announcement, heckK > >even Sun has hedged their bets by having a working Solaris port _today_)oF > >will not bode well for their ability to sell into those high-marginE > >Enterprise accounts that they are obviously trying to nurture witht > >their entire new strategy.  >  > Compaq has a strategy?  I   Lets port Tru64 to IA-64.  No wait, lets not port Tru64 to IA-64.  Hey,t?   lets port Tru64 to IA-64 again!  Compaq strategy at its best!s   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/o   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 04:40:21 -0700. From: mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.s= Message-ID: <7500353b.0106260340.174f5c9b@posting.google.com>   t Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<YeM9$uYXP4VI@eisner.encompasserve.org>...} > In comp.unix.tru64 article <2d9340de.0106252109.61073a24@posting.google.com>, morton_john@hotmail.com (John Morton) writes:b > H > > Compaq recently disclosed its decision to keep the 64-bit Tru64 UnixI > > operating system (formerly known as Digital Unix) on Alpha alone. TherH > > company decided not to "productize" the Tru64 port to Intel's 64-bitI > > IA64 microprocessor, although dev elopment on that port will continue I > > in China as part of a contractual agreement with a Chinese governmenteE > > agency. This decision reduces the number of Unix server operatingnC > > environments (SOEs) that have been announced for IA64 to three:aJ > > Hewlett-Packard's H P-UX, Sun's Solaris, and IBM/SCO/Sequent's Project
 > > Monterey.r > >   E Interesting notion - when I recieved the news and this one, I thoughtpF to myself of how close Itanium port already is ? Afaik, Tru 64 alreadyE has the possibility to run Linux applications with compatibility lib.c> I suppose Linux could have similar Tru 64 compatibility box orE libraries and a lot of porting would be saved. For Tandem it could bee> the same - writing device drivers and providing special kernelE services. And who knows - would it be possible to have a VMS emulatortB on Linux like Alpha Nt had Intel emulator. HP 3000 was an emulatorA over HP-UX when 3000 was moved to risc. Apple has 68k emulator oni risc.u  F In my experience of porting between different unix systems, in realityF the differences are really small unless you have a different bit orderC and have used structs with exactlength digits. Code made with VMS ct@ compiler and then ported to risc machine like Aix crashes easily; because VMS c compiler is 'smart' and corrects the mistakeseD automatically whereas Aix thinks that 'if you made it, you mean it'.E So I used the develop in aix and then port to vms because in that waye@ the result was easily guaranteed. The rest of the code not doing+ anything with stucts should be really easy.r  F Now, if we compare tru 64 and linux, the differences must be small. SoE in principle what I have described should be possible (of course I amtE talking about IA64 port of Linux). For openvms - if they support onlynF the compability without really booting to it - again it could be done.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:51:22 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. H Message-ID: <OFC891CE27.646FD299-ON80256A77.0040AA9F@qedi.quintiles.com>  G I doubt that the Tandem customers would be happy with that method.  ThenJ present architecture does everything in a lock step technique such that atG least two processors do the same job at any one time.  If one processor + gives a wrong answer then it is failed out.(  I Tandem takes the must not fail idea to the extreme which is why customersnJ use it in their specific applications.  It also extends to disks which useI 514 byte sectors rather than the usual 512 as the two extra bytes containn2 parity information for the 512 bytes of real data.   Steve.   Mist Dragon wrote: >>> E Interesting notion - when I recieved the news and this one, I thoughtlF to myself of how close Itanium port already is ? Afaik, Tru 64 alreadyE has the possibility to run Linux applications with compatibility lib.h> I suppose Linux could have similar Tru 64 compatibility box orE libraries and a lot of porting would be saved. For Tandem it could bei> the same - writing device drivers and providing special kernel	 services.  <<<i   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:00:53 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.'3 Message-ID: <hxmjFIVFocal@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  h In article <acKZ6.98$rc5.4164@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:J > I believe that the VAX port probably was the most tramatic for everyone.N > Going from Alpha to IPF (Itanium Processor Family) will be less tramatic.  IK > believe that if you have gotten to Alpha, odds are it will be a recompilef	 > and go.h  H I don't think so.  Many of the basic architectural concepts of Alpha areG compatable with VAX, and the Alpha was designed with the knowledge thatg9 VMS would have to run on it.  This is not true for IA-64.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group>E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:30:54 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.p3 Message-ID: <js8Fu80Z2XSP@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFC8@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes:  > D > You'll be able to buy an Itanium system from "any computer shop".   H Yes, but will VMS run on an "any shop" Itanium?  And will EDT be useableF on and "any shop" keyboard, or will we still need three fingers to hit "gold"?a  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationc= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouprE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 05:33:09 -0700  From: alanb@cloud9.net (Alan B.)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.h< Message-ID: <88599d89.0106260433.b78e49c@posting.google.com>  l Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> wrote in message news:<3B38020B.6B9AD11F@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>... > Christopher Smith wrote: > M > > Well, on the bright side, if there's a low power Itanic being planned, we,) > > may see another VMS-capable notebook.  >  > > >   Do you REALLY think Compaq will allow OpenVMS on commodityF >   hardware?  Think about it, remember the Alpha white boxes meant toG >   run Windows NT and how they wouldn't run OpenVMS?  Compaq will mostsG >   certainly have two Itanium server lines, a commodity-priced one forTE >   Windows NT-based systems and one that will be able to run OpenVMSlI >   for substantially more money.  After all, that would mean competitionMH >   with Microsoft.  My other prediction:  OpenVMS and Tru64 will not beD >   able to run on Itanium servers of other manufacturers.  How muchM >   support was there for Alpha clones?  Perhaps OpenVMS systems will require G >   some special ROM, ala the old Mac OS ROM, I'm sure they'll think oft >   something. >     N >   OpenVMS engineering will never be given the resources to qualify commodityK >   peripherals and graphics.  In the windows way, the manufacturers of thetL >   peripherals and graphics write their own drivers... do you think they'll= >   write one for VMS?  OpenVMS on a laptop again?  Dream on.a > H >   Without the hardware subsidy on OS development, how much more do you. >   think people will have to pay for OpenVMS?  E ** What do I tell my boss now about my plan for migrating our old VAXmF apps to Alpha, as opposed to a PC OS as has happened to other apps? HeD was quite receptive and told me to go ahead. Now that Alpha's futureB (and what would be required to move to Itanium) is uncertain, thisA puts quite a damper on things. ** I feel somewhat screwed by CPQ!-   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:32:53 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <uLxGgDmVPisW@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  G As long as they're doing anoth port, how about confusing the world withd another name change?   VAX/VMSl VAX-VMS. VAX VMSc OpenVMS VAXv OpenVMS Alpha AXPe
 OpenVMS Alphah   How about just plain "VMS" ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationy= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:07:05 -0400h From: William_Bochnik@acml.com) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.l> Message-ID: <OF6CB35DD6.712E15D3-ON85256A77.004804AC@acml.com>  	 How aboute  
 OpenVMS Omegaa    (tongue firmly planted in cheek)      c                                                                                                    ac                     koehler@encompa                                                                sc                     sserve.org                     To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      tc                                                    cc:                                              c                     06/26/2001             Subject:     RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.           _c                     09:32 AM                                                                       hc                                                                                                     c                                                                                                    m        < As long as they're doing anoth port, how about confusing the
 world with another name change?   VAX/VMSr VAX-VMS" VAX VMS, OpenVMS VAXM OpenVMS Alpha AXPf
 OpenVMS Alphal   How about just plain "VMS" ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation1= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Groupe<                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,i@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroya# all copies of the original message.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:54:03 +010028 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.mN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFD2@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  F > > You'll be able to buy an Itanium system from "any computer shop".   I >Yes, but will VMS run on an "any shop" Itanium?  And will EDT be useable G >on and "any shop" keyboard, or will we still need three fingers to hit  >"gold"?  K Why should one shop's Itanium be different from another's re the running ofdE VMS any more than with Windows? Windows runs on any shop Pentiums,etcoH because so many people use Windows and the market makes it worthwhile toJ cater for different hardware configurations. iVMS could be in a similar or better position.  G I usually only have to hit one key for "Gold" when using EDT through my I Windows PC running Exceed. When I occasionally find another product whereoL one finger doesn't work I don't bother going to three fingers as I find that: two fingers, not pointing at the keyboard, are sufficient!   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)C   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:06:30 -0600t% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>p) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010626080552.02850888@ntbsod.psccos.com>  . At 07:54 AM 6/26/2001, John Macallister wrote:G > > > You'll be able to buy an Itanium system from "any computer shop".e >uK > >Yes, but will VMS run on an "any shop" Itanium?  And will EDT be useable.I > >on and "any shop" keyboard, or will we still need three fingers to hitA
 > >"gold"? >sL >Why should one shop's Itanium be different from another's re the running ofF >VMS any more than with Windows? Windows runs on any shop Pentiums,etcI >because so many people use Windows and the market makes it worthwhile toyK >cater for different hardware configurations. iVMS could be in a similar or  >better position.t  J Why would one shop's alpha run NT and not VMS?  Console/microcode support.   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+bI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |uI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |TI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |lI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:16:53 +0100r8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium. N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFD4@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  L > Why would one shop's alpha run NT and not VMS?  Console/microcode support.  K Microcode can be written. It's a one-off job for each variation of hardware I type. The reason some shops did not write in VMS console support was thataI they did not see a market for VMS on Alpha. iVMS on Itanium, or any InteloC processor, would offer the potential of significant returns for theuI investment in microcode. The significant returns won't appear, of course,VK until there's good, compatible application software available. The next fewD3 months may interesting as ASP's comment on iVMS ...0   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:24:07 -0400m, From: "John W. Hom" <j.hom.1@alumni.nyu.edu>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.r. Message-ID: <3B389B07.8B467009@alumni.nyu.edu>   John Macallister wrote:i  -G > > > You'll be able to buy an Itanium system from "any computer shop".   rM > Why should one shop's Itanium be different from another's re the running ofrG > VMS any more than with Windows? Windows runs on any shop Pentiums,etctJ > because so many people use Windows and the market makes it worthwhile toL > cater for different hardware configurations. iVMS could be in a similar or > better position.  @ I think I remember reading somewhere that the Pentium processors	 have two e? bits for privilege, but was hobbled to one bit in order to work  with the; more common OSes which use User/System modes.  If Compaq is. indeed intent onA porting VMS to the IA64, pressure must to placed to keep the foura	 execution.@ modes required (User/Supervisor/Executive/Kernel).  I don't know if the@ motherboards and the various other cards need to be changed, but I'm sure6 a physical jumper could be placed somewhere that would enable/disable the
 extra bit.  @ It would be interesting to see what becomes of this project.  If they are? successful and do port the OS to IA64, I'm building my own box,o and for > the first time, I'll be able to run VMS at home.  If not, it's probably the end.   John -- a John W. Homt j.hom.1@alumni.nyu.edu  3 Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.t  =                                        -- Henry David Thoreau    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:27:52 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> ) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.uB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010626082205.02818678@ntbsod.psccos.com>  . At 08:16 AM 6/26/2001, John Macallister wrote:N > > Why would one shop's alpha run NT and not VMS?  Console/microcode support. >:L >Microcode can be written. It's a one-off job for each variation of hardwareJ >type. The reason some shops did not write in VMS console support was thatJ >they did not see a market for VMS on Alpha. iVMS on Itanium, or any IntelD >processor, would offer the potential of significant returns for theJ >investment in microcode. The significant returns won't appear, of course,L >until there's good, compatible application software available. The next few4 >months may interesting as ASP's comment on iVMS ...  H But the point is, a HUGE reason for VMS' success is because the hardwareK platforms were predictable and well-qualified.  You won't (I strongly hope)iJ be able to go into your local CompUSA (or its equivalent overseas) and buyH VMS off-the-shelf, it just doesn't make any sense to even consider that.   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+XI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |eI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |lI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |sI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:26:30 GMTv1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.e2 Message-ID: <3B389C95.64EDBF53@clarityconnect.com>  C People have been screaming for commodity ALPHA hardware!!!!!!!  Who G knows what Intel will eventually deliver post IA-64 as we all know thatr7 IA-64 in it's current form won't be good enough to use.s   Jordan Henderson wrote:e > <snipped a bunch>aJ > People have been jumping up and down, red-in-the-face, screaming in thisJ > newsgroup for VMS on commodity hardware.  It looks like Compaq has takenI > a HUGE step in that direction and many of the same people are screaminga& > "woe is me, the end of VMS is nigh!" >      -- oD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 14:44:04 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.l, Message-ID: <9ha73k$inf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA3715304C906C5@mbsus228.mbc.com>, "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> writes:lG >Wouldn't it have made more sense to have ported OpenVMS, Tru64, NSK to2K >Itanium and have the working incarnations of the OS's ready to demonstrate L >*BEFORE* announcing the abandonment of the only chip platforms they operate >on...  D Yes, it would have.  Either Q management really has no intention of E completing these ports (that is, they're intentionally torching theseiH businesses for who knows what twisted and perverse MBA reason, and theseH "ports" are designed to falsely reassure the remaining customers so thatD the Q can milk the last few pennies out of them before selling thoseJ customers' souls to CA) or they don't have any institutional memory of the VAX->Alpha transition. o  E >I find it hard to believe that a savvy business decision maker wouldeM >throw his "trust" into Compaq's following through on its promise to actuallyrL >port the OS's.  This is also the reason that this announcement will severlyD >hurt Compaq in the pocketbook immediately in terms of Alpha and NSKD >sales...they will practically vanish...how stupid can a company be?  D Michael Crichton coined this term for the entertainment industry butA it seems appropriate to apply it here as well: fabulously stupid.3   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech hJ **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:46:08 +0100 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.hN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFD5@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   >You won't (I strongly hope)K >be able to go into your local CompUSA (or its equivalent overseas) and buyII >VMS off-the-shelf, it just doesn't make any sense to even consider that.-  J I strongly hope people WILL be able to into any computer shop and purchaseC hardware and an iVMS CD kit as easily installable as the other OS's G available in the shop. People should not have to be computer experts to- install and own an iVMS PC.6  J There will, of course, be "enterprise systems" and "SERVERS" which may runK specialised hardware or software requiring significant specialised support.m  I The home market with iVMS and the server market with sVMS/eVMS (?) should. support each other.h  D We all have to get away from (a) the doom and gloom culture at AlphaI reaching the end of its development cycle and (b) the mean culture of not I wanting to share iVMS with the rest of the World lest we end up not beingp special in some way. s  G The rest of the World is now going to look at news groups like this for-G impressions of iVMS and so we must attempt to have positive discussions F looking forward to the new horizons and opportunities the full port toL Itanium can offer. If all they see are people jumping or threatening to jumpJ ship nobody will come aboard and iVMS will be scuttled by those already on+ board and not sunk by an indifferent World.    iVMS : let's get on with it ...a   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:00:16 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> ) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.lB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010626085334.00a92e90@ntbsod.psccos.com>  . At 08:46 AM 6/26/2001, John Macallister wrote: > >You won't (I strongly hope)M > >be able to go into your local CompUSA (or its equivalent overseas) and buyiK > >VMS off-the-shelf, it just doesn't make any sense to even consider that.  > K >I strongly hope people WILL be able to into any computer shop and purchasetD >hardware and an iVMS CD kit as easily installable as the other OS'sH >available in the shop. People should not have to be computer experts to >install and own an iVMS PC.  K Agreed.  However, just one thing's missing: software.  Just how many people L are going to give up their Microsoft stuff so they can run right out and buyH VMS without it?  For that matter, what system have more people heard of?N VMS or Windows?  Who has the track record?  VMS or Windows?  It doesn't matterK HOW technically superior VMS is to Windows, very few people who want to runlH a spreadsheet give a damn about that.  There is literally ZERO window ofJ opportunity to make VMS a system for the masses.  It simply can't compete.  K The other concern, of course, is that if Joe Everyman can walk into a store N and buy his VMS system off the shelf, and it doesn't work with his (disk/tape/L scanner/digital camera/controller/whatever-widget-you-want), that starts badO press about "look how lousy the support for this is".  And eventually that word M gets back to the IT manager who's looking at buying VMS: "hmmmmm...I've heard-M that this thing just isn't reliable anymore, better buy something else".  AndnN it won't matter that for HIS application it would be just fine.  Perception isK reality.  I know, I ran up against countless managers and beancounters witha- that mentality at MCI, BT, whatever you wish.     >iVMS : let's get on with it ...   Yea, verily, brother!    ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+-I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |rI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |lI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |eI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:02:57 -040062 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2606011102570001@user-2ive7jq.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B3791B8.181D131E@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeio% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:       > It was bad enough that DigitalO > failed in its transition of VAX->ALPHA (the fact that so many vaxes remain in O > production 10 years after is a testament to that failure, with demand for new  > VAXes continuing),    G Nope.  Now you go too far.  Digital's migration from vax to alpha was arJ success.  95% of user-mode code was compile-and-go. The VMS tranistion wasD easy for most of us.  (I leave out things like marketing and productB development, which stank.)  All those vaxes still in service are aH testament to the quality of their design and construction.  They weren't made to be disposable.  L > You could hire all the Alpha engineers. I bet and I hope that many of them  > will refuse to work for Intel.  H Hoping for that is definitely cutting off your nose to spite your face. F Those engineers are the best chance to make a future intel CPU that is worth cheering for.-  F Many of the engineers may not like having their leases yanked in a newJ direction, and may leave.  But Intel is quickly becoming the only place toG work if you want to design state of the art CPUs for a living. I expecthI IBM will make a bid for these folks, but beyond that they don't have many_ options.  H Perhaps Intel will bend over backwards to make these people happy.  TheyH are among the best in the world.  If there were lots of people this good? available, intel would have already hired them to help with the  Unobtanium.e  N The engineers and intel may have to stay together because of mutual necessity.   -- w Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:07:54 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.hL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2606011107540001@user-2ive7jq.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <3b378f71.12977230@news.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com> (Hunter Goatley) wrote:o  P > As others have said elsewhere, I've ported a large number of programs/productsP > from VAX to Alpha.  Once the Alpha compilers had matured some, the porting wasJ > trivial for all but the really low-level kernel-mode code that was tired closely P > to the VAX architecture.  I would expect that once Compaq has the GEM compilerJ > back-end generating IA64 code, porting the code should be as simple as aO > recompile of the code.  (GEM didn't exist on VAX, so moving from VAX to AlphaaO > wasn't quite as simple; since all (AFAIK) the Alpha VMS compilers use the GEMiN > back-end, there should be no compiler growing pains in the new architecture, > once GEM has been fixed.)t  G Evidently there are various generations of GEM, and some compilers seemWF stuck on older ones.  Compaq Ada comes to mind.  I guess plugging in aA newer GEM isn't completely trivial, or there wouldn't be strandedn
 compilers.  I I hope the IA64 version of GEM is available as a "plug-in", perhaps under:J license, with a documented interface.  That would be better than "internalE use only".  But I guess GEM goes to intel along with alpha.  Compaq's ? software will no longer have the advantage of the best compilera3 technology.  Intel will give everyone equal access.l  ! > That's what I hope, anyway.....F   So do I.   -- I Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com5   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:13:40 +0100r8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>) Subject: RE: Full port of VMS to Itanium.VN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFD6@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  . > However, just one thing's missing: software.  K It's clear that iVMS will have little impact without user software and thatsH software must be compatible (i.e. same GUI) with that on Windows. PeopleE just don't want another different set of packages: they want the samek package on Windows or iVMS.   H A massive surge of enthusiasm from this news group, DECUS, VMS lobbyistsG everywhere is now needed to ensure that there is sufficient momentum toiK convince third party vendors that it will be worthwhile porting packages to- iVMS.    Let's go trekking ...'   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:18:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-& Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS+ Message-ID: <3B383743.730E8FD@videotron.ca>1   Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > of the 21064 in 1992.  Somehow DEQ managed to put new features into the H > Alpha chips named 21064A, 21164, 21164PC, 21264 and whatever else.  OfF > course IBM and Motorola do this with the various PowerPC models, theJ > latest being called G3 and G4 by Macintosh users.  But Intel would never3 > put changes into a chip -- they are not capable. s   Thank you for your sarcasm.c  K To me, there is a very big difference between incremental improvements witht@ minor additions to an architecture and changing an architecture.  N The various Pentiums are all the same from the application point of view, withN a very few number of applications taking advantages of the cryptic instructionD that may have been added in the latest incarnation of the 8086 line.  N Similarly, the engineers may have made serious changes to HOW the architectureF is implemented and how the optimisation is done (affecting perhaps the2 compilers), but the architecture remains the same.  H What is binary compatible with today's newborn IA64 will still be binaryM compatible with the IA64 that will be in production when VMS is ported to it. K IA64 will not suddently start to support the Alpha instruction set and dropo its own.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:52:48 -0700o1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> & Subject: Re: Future support of VAX-VMS2 Message-ID: <3B381520.B55B16E@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:   F > Did anywhere in my note I indicate otherwise?  I'll repeat, "Our VAXL > customers are important to us".  I would expect us to provide "support VMSB > on the VAX "through the year 2010" with "preventive, performance) > optimization, and remedial services."".r  A   Through some third-party organization like Computer Associates?o   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/t   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 15:02:22 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)% Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS on IA64h, Message-ID: <9ha85u$inf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ` In article <D1TZ6.4732$%L5.60427@insync>, LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie) writes:G >IA-64 Windows users will be able to use VMS' Backup (BACKUP/PHYSICAL),n( >to finally have a reliable backup tool.  B Sort of.  I once booted VMS on an NT/Alpha box so that I could useJ backup/physical to duplicate the internal disk.   Unfortunately I couldn'tI just run off the second disk as the #($&#($&#$ OS had C: hardwired in alliG over the place and the second disk came up as D:.  But it worked once I:H removed the first disk and put the copy in alone.  Of course, if it had L been a VMS box there would have no problem booting from the second disk, no  matter what it's designation.6   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech :J **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 12:52:01 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)u3 Subject: Re: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwoodm+ Message-ID: <9ha0hh$qeo$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>e  6 In article <1010625211806.38769I-100000@Ives.egh.com>,#  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:  |>K |>              (I don't know why he changed his name; maybe people could'tlK |> pronounce or spell it?  "Holtz" means wood in German, so I guess "Teich"o |> must mean "brook".)   Close.  It means "pond".   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:05:14 -0500h* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>3 Subject: RE: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwoodu- Message-ID: <0033000027570042000002L022*@MHS>-  3 =0APerhaps it was originally Holzkopf, which is the- German colloquialism for idiot.,   WWWebb.1   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETl& > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:07 AMF > To: Webb, William W - Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET5 > Subject: RE: I hate Ziff-Davis AND Nathan Brookwoodl >l >v8 > In article <1010625211806.38769I-100000@Ives.egh.com>,% >  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:  > |>> > |>              (I don't know why he changed his name; maybe > people could't? > |> pronounce or spell it?  "Holtz" means wood in German, so IM > guess "Teich"r > |> must mean "brook".) >h > Close.  It means "pond". >  > bill >n > --> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. > Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:25:20 +0100-8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk># Subject: RE: I will change platform N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCE@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  G >I believe I will be out of this newsgroup soon. I cant trust my careerb >anymore
 >in OpenVMS. g  K If you change platforms make sure you get on the right train. Any VMS trainvJ will get you to the right station. If you wait for an iVMS train you'll beL able to get off at any station you want. The Windows 2000 train will explodeG at an intermediate station if too many people get on and off. The Tru64 L train will have to be built on the journey collecting pieces at each stationL on the way: you won't be allowed to board unless you (a) have a new piece ofI train in your luggage or (b) know how to assemble some of the parts lyingeK all over the floor in each acrriage. The Solaris train will overshoot every H station as it's just too fast for ordinary people and stations: your SUNE salesperson will be able to tell you where the nearest SUN-compatiblebK station is located but you won't be able to obtain that information at youro3 station as it does not have a SUN support contract.    John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:40:25 -0700e1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>   Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World3 Message-ID: <3B380429.6BC68235@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>c   IA69QUEEN wrote: >  > Dear Computer People,* > @ > I am an Alpha Designer...or was an Alpha Designer.  At first IC > was skeptical about IA64 architecture, but after the presentation*? > today, I've changed my mind. The Intel VP made perfect sense.*1 > I signed up right away! And gave him a big hug!u > D > IA64 is a feature rich architecture with many technical advantages= > and is rich with features.  I look forward to building thiss > microprocessor.4 > @ > The best part of IA64 are the pretty colors.  Colors...dancing > before my eyes.... > 0 > Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards! > @ > Wait, I take that back.  I was wrong to think Alpha is better.> > Just because it was "higher" "performance"... "faster", more> > "scalable", more "reliable", and just plain sexier...doesn't0 > mean we were right to defy the Light..Intel... > > > I thank everyone for their poems and consolation.  The Intel4 > Lobotomy Probe (ILP) (TM) (C) didn't hurt at all.. >  > Sincerly,  >  > Andy Grove's Bitch,h >  > IA69QUEENi >   > PS I Like EPIC Sized Hardware.    K   Message to Alpha designers:  Which chip can your RISC experience help the O   most?  The answer is not Itanium but Power or UltraSPARC.  Now, which company(L   deserves your loyalty and would appreciate your contributions more?  Intel   or IBM and Sun?n  7   Follow the former StrongARM team's lead, ditch Intel.e  I   By the way... shouldn't the Compaq Alpha developers have gone to HP?  IoG   remember reading that Intel had many problems implementing the IA-64 MH   architecture and had to turn it over to HP for the design of McKinley.   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:24:56 +0200b& From: Bernd Paysan <bpaysan@mikron.de>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World( Message-ID: <3B387F18.27AD323@mikron.de>   Vance Haemmerle wrote:M >   Message to Alpha designers:  Which chip can your RISC experience help the+Q >   most?  The answer is not Itanium but Power or UltraSPARC.  Now, which company-N >   deserves your loyalty and would appreciate your contributions more?  Intel >   or IBM and Sun?R  H A number of Alpha designers - the ones that left after the last merger -G went to AMD. It's not a RISC chip, but the internal architecture of the:F Athlon (after the x86 decode step) looks quite similar to the Alpha; aG bit less agressive, though. After all, if there is no chance but designoE Intel-like chips, would you design for or against Intel? Furthermore,l1 AMD now wants compiler experts (for Hammer), too.s  D Perhaps Intel really wants wetware, but what it will get is just theE architecture. A good backup if IA64 fails. After all, much of Intel's G success are "backup" solutions. Ditch i432, ship 8086. Ditch i860, shipsC Pentium. Intel's history is a good example of the "worse is better"cF theorem, because they always invested a lot of money in overengineeredE architectures that caused one or the other problem (i860 mostly was ahG compiler and OS nightmare, not so much overcomplex hardware as i432 and E Itanic; Itanic is perhaps the worst of both: overcomplex hardware andhC compiler/OS nightmare), and the cash cow was some more evolutionaryt developed design.    -- f Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"e http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:16:55 -0400r2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World. Message-ID: <3B38A767.6ED07B86@mindspring.com>   Bill Todd wrote:  K > If IBM doesn't cave like DECpaq did, the Power architecture seems to havenN > the strength to stand up to anything HP comes up with (Intel's contributionsN > being a non-issue if Merced is much indication).  Maybe they'll steal an SMTM > page from Alpha to improve the chip-area (and power - small 'p') efficiencygM > of CMP (please don't get upset if IBM invented SMT in the first place:  I'mi4 > just a software type and don't know these things).  /   IBM's latest PowerPC chips *DO* have SMT! :-)-  <   (You can find out more in the previous edition of the "IBM;   Journal of Research and Development" where they described =   *TWO* of their latest PowerPC chips and their latest OS/390    chip.)                            Atlants   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:10:43 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)- Subject: Re: Itanium HW REF MAN-, Message-ID: <CV41Z4DsFgPd@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  * In article <3B37FA2F.EA3D316D@wi.rr.com>, *     Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:  > > The chips that will be running VMS aren't even designed yet.  =    But production quantities will be available by early 2004?nA Given the lateness of Itanium this seems like a pretty optimisticj	 schedule.n  8    Perhaps the Alpha has a lot more life left than then ! announcement yesterday indicated.A  @    OTOH, if Intel were to decide today to scrap IA64 and go with> Alpha they'd be right on track. Of course Alphas won't run x86A code today, but Intel could keep selling Pentiums for a few yearsr= and could put their ertswhile Itanium engineers onto the task @ of designing an x86 compatibility mode into a future Alpha chip.    :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:50:41 +0100s8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>
 Subject: iVMSaN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFCC@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  K The "O" in OpenVMS (Ugh!) stood for "Optimism", unfounded as it turned out.oC The "i" in iVMS may stand for "Intelligence" especially intelligenti marketing and development.  J The concerns that some people now have about a market gap between now, theL end of the Alpha, and the introduction of iVMS may be unfounded. Once CompaqH realise that iVMS is really the way forward the transition could move up6 several gears and we may see iVMS several years early!   It's an exciting prospect.   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:13:07 -0400b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: iVMSs, Message-ID: <3B38A682.B1EFC50A@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote:oL > The concerns that some people now have about a market gap between now, theN > end of the Alpha, and the introduction of iVMS may be unfounded. Once CompaqJ > realise that iVMS is really the way forward the transition could move up8 > several gears and we may see iVMS several years early!  4 What is Intel's record in delivering chips on time ?  H If the VMS engineers have to wait for the IA64 architecture to add a fewJ instructions/features to make VMS run on it, then they are at the mercy ofN Intel going through it various already announced chip plans  before it gets to- the project where the bits for VMS get added.e  H Your plan only works if VMS can be ported to the existing IA64 computers: without modifications to the architecture/instruction set.  I Perhaps the 4 year wait will be required before they can do stuff such aslM Wildfires and Galaxy but perhaps VMS might run as a single processor machineshE on today's IA64. I don't know. But I don't take anything for granted.w   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:22:10 GMTu' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>s Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.1- Message-ID: <3B38701D.2D02BC65@theblakes.com>a  " smithp01@mcrc16.med.nyu.edu wrote:  N > A question for the Mozilla experts: According to info I got from the bugtrakN > LDAP was put into 0.9.1, but I can't find it.  Or, rather I can find a scrapK > of a place that the LDAP server info should go, which is on the page that M > account info is set up, but the actual window to enter the info is missing. N > Is this a "real" bug in 0.9.1? Or is it a "feature" of the VMS distribution?  b Its there, its just that the panel doesn't auto-expand to show it. Just grab a corner and manually expand the box.-  ; This is fixed in M0.9.2 where LDAP gets its own pref panel.c   Colin.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 03:01:23 -0700$ From: mezzahoui@yahoo.com (Ezzahoui) Subject: MWAIT Problem= Message-ID: <a2c79b77.0106260201.613326a4@posting.google.com>:   Hello,S I have a VMS 6.2 cluster (2 node) all the time i have the scheduler in MAWAIT statet SYSTEM> sh sys /stat=RW*F OpenVMS V6.2	on node TA550M	26-JUN-2001 11:57:52.75	Uptime	69 16:10:157 Pid	Process Name	State	Pri	I/O	CPU	     Page flts	Pagesn9 20400460 Scheduler	RWMBX	6	5479 0 00:10:34.65    34491	80e SYSTEM>  SYSTEM> sh proc /id=20400460) %SYSTEM-F-SUSPENDED, process is suspendedf SYSTEM>   # a help please to solve this problems Thanks   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:02:13 GMTB From: bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr (BERTRAND =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=EBl?=)8 Subject: Re: Ni fleurs ni couronnes [was] Compaq & Alpha6 Message-ID: <slrn9jggbm.vno.bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr>   Le 26 Jun 2001 07:16:37 GMT24 BERTRAND Jol <bertrand@perceval.cnam.fr> crivait :) >Le Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:44:27 +0000 (UTC)F= >michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr <michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr> crivait :p& >>Damien WYART <dwyart@noos.fr> wrote:G >>> Puisque a parlait puces Alpha il y a peu, une news qui fait un peuS; >>> peur... On dirait que a sent le roussi pour les Alpha.p >>> >>> <http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.html> >>I >>Oui c'tait  craindre car les machines alpha taient produites  petitg& >>volume et donc beaucoup trop chres. >I6 >	Pas plus que les Sun, et largement moins que les HP. > " >>L'article montre aussi que IntelJ >>n'arrive pas  sortit le Itanium avec les performances voulues et espre6 >>que le renfort des ingnieurs de Digital va l'aider. > @ >	La sortie d'un nouvel avatar du 4004 est toujours un vnementF >que ne puis manquer. La question est :  faut-il encore deux Itaniums@ >(Itania ?) pour faire un moule  gauffre ? . Enfin, je ne saisE >pas s'il chauffe, mais pour l'instant, il est aussi rapide qu'un P90s >sous Linux...  = 	Tiens, je viens de tomber sur un truc qui n'a pas fini de mee faire rire :  = http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/customer_quotes.htmlr- [very interesting, no one negative remarks !]i  I  C'est fou le nombre d'incapables parlant de n'importe quoi ! Je cite, eni+ ouvrant les guillemets avec des pincettes :   K "When Cray Research introduced their highly-successful T3D/T3E link no ones D questioned their choice of Alpha processors, because Cray was addingG significant value at the system level, and Alphas were clearly the bestcM available processing element for the job. Now Compaq is making a very similarZL decision. And we expect a very similar result - major supercomputing centers< like PSC will continue to rely on Compaq for their systems."  A 	Surtout que dans les commentaires prsents, aucun n'est ngatifh@ (tiens donc !). Un exemple de pur marketing dans la grande ligne& du intelo-microsoftien. Du grand art !   	JKB   -- n< > Quelqu'un aurait-il une solution pour rinitialiser un MBRH Si tu veux qu'il soit compltement blanc (pas souhaitable,  mon avis) :8 dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=512k count=1 (sous Linux)H -+- OT in Guide du linuxien (trs) pervers - "Pour les K difficiles" -+-   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 07:36:48 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)a4 Subject: OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture)= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0106260636.49a05a92@posting.google.com>4  # (1) The OpenVMS/Tru64/et al. ports:   D The lack of thought about this reminds me *so much* of Microsoft and0 people that manage Microsoft "IT SUPPORT" teams.  8 Enuf said. Not an easy task. 18 months really ?????????   D The processors look very different. I do also expect we will get the sameD nice features on the Compaq Itanium boxes such as with the Alpha SRMC console where we can query and adjust hardware, for example such ase DIMM SPDs as I have on the XP1000?   @ Of course this would mean that we can't do the same (or even run OpenVMS)* on those clone, non Compaq Itanium boxes?    (2) In defence of Compaq:   E     (a) Samsung can produce Alphas at a low cost, but don't do design  so a         short term solution.D     (b) Intel could do, however don't want to since it would compete withD         their own product and they have already "obtained" what they need -(         the rest is not that important. E     (c) No one will be producing main stream microprocessors in a fewi yearsnB         time except Intel. Sun and IBM will be the last to fall to Intel.E     (d) Microsoft runs on Intel and Microsoft is above the Law - theyeD actually        are able to make it up as they go. The Microsoft CEOB is known to lie        openly and the company are happy about thisE (yes I did follow it up -        that issue involves his *lies* giveno6 about Open Source software earlier        this month).  E I am to say the least perturbed about this. Does it mean that for the D near future we will be "allowed" to use OpenVMS/whatever OS on Intel then7 ONLY, AND *TOTALLY ONLY* Microsoft on Intel after then?c  E Compaq did a lot of good work on OpenVMS after DEC, however as a fact>D of life there are now broken promises regarding the future of Alpha.  E For the record. I would consider Linux (in a pinch), however if theret isE no OpenVMS then I'm outta here! I WILL NOT SUPPORT MICROSOFT PRODUCTS* -SA did that for a couple of years after supporting OpenVMS/VAX - thec
 *HATRED* IF have developed in having to do that is enough to last me a lifetime. I am9 currently happy supporting OpenVMS/Alpha and Tru64/Alpha.   E My employer (although has a large number of Microsoft users) is happya for meC to do so due to the reliability provided (Web sites/Mail hub/Oracle C databases - they could never get their act together with NT), and Is# would like things to stay that way.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:09:03 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)w8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Itanium (So *Microsoft PC* Culture)* Message-ID: <9ha8if$95l$1@lisa.gemair.com>  = In article <55f85d77.0106260636.49a05a92@posting.google.com>,m* Patrick Young <P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU> wrote: >t >[snip]  > F >    (c) No one will be producing main stream microprocessors in a few >yearsC >        time except Intel. Sun and IBM will be the last to fall to- >Intel.-   What about AMD?a  E On a related note, I wouldn't be surprised if Compaq shopped an Alphae0 technology deal to AMD, but Intel offerred more.  D I wonder if Compaq will stop selling AMD machines now?  Maybe Compaq3 has locked in a good price on Intel processors now.n   >[snip]o   -Jordan Hendersonr jordan@greenapple.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:38:22 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Predictiona+ Message-ID: <3B38580E.9609DF3B@bigfoot.com>y  C I predict that Michael Capellas will not be CEO of Compaq within 14aG months of the date of this message.  A view from the top: Having mapped G out his OWN EXIT strategy by whatever personal (monetary) forces causes D him to make the decisions announced on the 6/25/2001, Mr. Capellas IE predict will retire early, as the deal has made him quite financially % comfortable at the expense of Compaq.e   HM   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:19:47 GMTy= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)l Subject: Re: PredictionN0 Message-ID: <009FE198.D85DE7C9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <3B38580E.9609DF3B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:D >I predict that Michael Capellas will not be CEO of Compaq within 14H >months of the date of this message.  A view from the top: Having mappedH >out his OWN EXIT strategy by whatever personal (monetary) forces causesE >him to make the decisions announced on the 6/25/2001, Mr. Capellas I0F >predict will retire early, as the deal has made him quite financially& >comfortable at the expense of Compaq.  F Capellas is dead and buried in the concrete of some major constructionF project.  Who you see at the helm is Robert Palmer with a well-crafted+ hollywood-style latex mask of Capellas.  ;)i   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMp            *O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:42:14 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: Predictiont+ Message-ID: <3B387516.D5E3F723@bigfoot.com>.   Jinkies, you're right !!!.   HM  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > X > In article <3B38580E.9609DF3B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:F > >I predict that Michael Capellas will not be CEO of Compaq within 14J > >months of the date of this message.  A view from the top: Having mappedJ > >out his OWN EXIT strategy by whatever personal (monetary) forces causesG > >him to make the decisions announced on the 6/25/2001, Mr. Capellas IyH > >predict will retire early, as the deal has made him quite financially( > >comfortable at the expense of Compaq. > H > Capellas is dead and buried in the concrete of some major constructionH > project.  Who you see at the helm is Robert Palmer with a well-crafted- > hollywood-style latex mask of Capellas.  ;)  >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:16:23 GMTc. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> Subject: Re: Predictionc: Message-ID: <HW%Z6.7470$P5.2820399@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  J "Pay no attention to that man behind the San Jose curtain!  I am the great  and powerful Wizard of Houston!"   Righto, Brian & Hamlyn,1 Aaron5 --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/K "Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!" (Anonymous Alpha Engineer)     H Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FE198.D85DE7C9@SendSpamHere.ORG...; > In article <3B38580E.9609DF3B@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootool <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:F > >I predict that Michael Capellas will not be CEO of Compaq within 14J > >months of the date of this message.  A view from the top: Having mappedJ > >out his OWN EXIT strategy by whatever personal (monetary) forces causesG > >him to make the decisions announced on the 6/25/2001, Mr. Capellas IiH > >predict will retire early, as the deal has made him quite financially( > >comfortable at the expense of Compaq. >eH > Capellas is dead and buried in the concrete of some major constructionH > project.  Who you see at the helm is Robert Palmer with a well-crafted- > hollywood-style latex mask of Capellas.  ;)D >h > --4 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >eK > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named aftere them.c   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 03:35 CDTO' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)w' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.p- Message-ID: <26JUN200103354426@gerg.tamu.edu>   1 koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes...e] }In article <3B36DE7F.7487024F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:t }> iI }> Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement.-N }> Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chip because } ? }Alpha->IA64 may be seen by many as a cost/performance upgrade,6F }especially for VMS users if it can be made to run on at least a large  }subset of the systems shipping. } 6 }Or it may be viewed as a purchase cost improvement.  @ }Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation  B By who? AT this point, the only Itanium systems you can buy run at@ least $7,000. This is not any cheaper than a DS10, and that DS10E is running VMS while the Itanium system is running Windows 2000 or XP:> (which costs less than VMS, thus the hardware must cost more).  F Will the price come down? Sure. But I bet you won't be able to run VMSE on the off-the-shelf Itanium motherboards. If you could, Compaq couldoB easily find itself selling VMS to run on Dell hardware. I serouslyD doubt that Compaq would allow that. They probably *should* allow it, but I bet they won't.-   --- Carl   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:28:15 +0000 (UTC)e' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)e' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.>+ Message-ID: <9h9o3v$5l4$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251430450.16346-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: >o >t% >On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:l >0 >> Mister Matco, >> sH >Seems to me that the memo stated Compaq's commitment to OpenVMS. And ofH >couse, the port to IA-64 is something that people have wanted for quiteI >some time. VMS will have a much larger addressable market, assuming thathE >the port goes well (it should take 18 months at max) and that CompaqtE >maintains ISV support. If the OS port goes smoothly, and VMS becomes E >more widely adopted, ISVs will have more of a reason to port to VMS.8 >o >t  K Some people here have wanted a port to 8x86 so that VMS can be run on their-E home PCs or on spare Intel boxes in their organisations - like Linux.a  M Porting to IA-64 is a much less common request. It's usually articulated when9I events appear to show Compaq lacking commitment to Alpha. Especially whenoL Compaq were saying they were going to be porting TRU64 to IA-64 but not VMS.G There was an obvious fear for the survival of VMS if Alpha were to have 	 problems.a  L For VMS porting to IA-64 has always been a backup option, an escape route ifI there were problems with Alpha. I see zero reason to expect that IA-64 is N going to replace 8x86 (or compatible) chips on the desktop in the near future.  L Having a background effort to port VMS to IA-64 to cover all the bases makesM sense. Stopping development and selling Alpha to Intel doesn't. It sends all sI the wrong signals. Compaq have just created their own FUD which may well 8 destroy VMS, TRU64 and Compaq.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University 1   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 05:42 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins).' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.r- Message-ID: <26JUN200105424565@gerg.tamu.edu>a  1 Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes...A% }On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, JF Mezei wrote:b }  }> Rob Young wrote: L }> >         VMS folks are pretty unique in that they have gone through thisH }> >         once already, from VAX to Alpha and there is still a ton of" }> >         VAX stuff out there.  }> fN }> The problem is that VMS was a lot stronger starting the transition to Alpha; }> than it is now, supposedly starting the IA64 transition.c }>  I }> Furthermore, VMS->Alpha was clearly seen as a performance improvement. N }> Alpha->IA64 is seen as a downgrade and giving up on a superior chip becauseO }> Compaq admits defeat in the face of a chip that is barely out in the market.i }> r } J }Compaq came to the conclusion that Alpha would not be able to sustain itsH }performance advantage beyond EV8. Hence they decided to cut a deal with  A Frankly, I find that hard to beleive. Improvements past EV8 wouldkB seem to be *much* more straightforward than improvements to IA64'sA EPIC architecture (amongst chip people there is aparently seriouscB doubt that EPIC can get much improvement past the generation afterD McKinley - i.e. past the generation of it that is roughly equivalent to EV8 in time frame).  I }Intel and transition from EV7 to IA-64. Since Intel is acquiring the EV8tJ }design team (plus some GEM compiler developers and DECpaq's eight or nineJ }years experienc with 64-bit systems and Oses), Intel can and will enhanceJ }IA-64 with Alpha technology. (Lockstepping from EV7, potentially SMT from }EV8, etc).   G You know - people keep saying stuff like this. I hate to tell you this,dE but slavery is illegal. They will only get the people from the designtG teams who decide to stay on. And then they have to keep them. Retention ? during and after such transitions is usually not all that good.3  G I have no doubts that Intel things that they wanted (like all the Alpha K related patents). They will certaily make use of as much of it is possible.aG The only things that Compaq will get out of it are the same things that E everybody else gets out of it, since Intel will sell the same chip to0H everyone else. This insures that Compaq systems will never be any fasterG than anybody elses. Even if there was doubt as to their ability to keep8< ahead with Alpha, now they are 100% certain to not be ahead.  G (BTW, adding SMT to EPIC is reportedly in the "incredibly difficult, if H possible" category. The resulting chip would be vastly more complex thanG anything even being considered by anybody - not to mention huge even inj% comparison to the already huge IA64.)o  F }As for Compaq, it can save a bunch of money on Alpha development, and9 }invest some of the cash in system-level differentiators.l    Name three such differentiators.  @ OK - there are the operating systems they they own. But if goingC with "industry standard" CPUs seemed like a good way to save money, @ I see no reason to think that going with the "industry standard"A operating system won't appeal to them just as much: why spend all>D that money developing VMS and NSK when they can just sell the latestA NT derrivative? This would save them large sums of money. This is C also exactly the same logic as they just used. I have no confidences@ that they will not apply this "logic" and reach this conclusion.  F They aparently want service to be one, be we know how well that worked; out when they bought DEC and it's huge serive organization.'  E Considering that they just sold a huge differentiator that they nevereH actually took advantage of, and screwed up the service organization theyE got from DEC, I have serious doubts that they are capable of actuallys taking advantage of any others.t  G A business that wants to survive should never ever eliminate the thingsbH that differentiate it from it's competitors. Compaq just eliminated one. This is not a good sign.  N }> Alpha was seen as the only possible true competitor to IA64. By killing it,8 }> Compaq is permanently changing the face of computing. }>   } D }The operative word is "was," as in past tense. Compaq's Alpha folksF }concluded that Alpha's role as a contender wouldn't last much longer.  B The original Alpha team seemed to think that there was 25 years ofE improvements in there. What happened to them all? (I mean, other thaniD things like "they went away along with those designers". Many of theD old Alpha team are gone. I doubt that Intel will have much more luckD keeping this crop of them than Compaq had keeping the ones DEC had.)   }And so it goes...  F Well, it has definiately gone. Unfortunately VMS may well end up goingD with it (if so, then it would be very lucky if someone bought it andG continued to develop it - but it could just as easily die comepletely),nF along with all the rest of Compaq too. You may have to change the name of your newsletter again./   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:29:55 -0700r1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>-' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco. 3 Message-ID: <3B380FC2.35DE2358@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>O   Carl Perkins wrote:r  B > OK - there are the operating systems they they own. But if goingE > with "industry standard" CPUs seemed like a good way to save money,uB > I see no reason to think that going with the "industry standard"C > operating system won't appeal to them just as much: why spend all F > that money developing VMS and NSK when they can just sell the latestC > NT derrivative? This would save them large sums of money. This isoE > also exactly the same logic as they just used. I have no confidenceaB > that they will not apply this "logic" and reach this conclusion.  L   Message to Compaq managers:  Think of the money you can save if you closedA   up shop now and fired everyone including yourselves!  Billions!q   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:20:23 -0500v3 From: "Jay E. Morris" <morris@thorin.brooks.af.mil>e' Subject: Re: Question to Charlie Matco.e, Message-ID: <9ha65j$2c1$1@leo.brooks.af.mil>  : "Terry C Shannon" <shannon@world.std.com> wrote in message> news:Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251634070.16346-100000@world.std.com... >n >i+ > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jay E. Morris wrote:  ..... 5 >> > of major inprovements.  Can you say "AlphaBorg"?o > >  > >  > ( > No, but I can say IA-64: Alpha-Inside. > % You've got it, the new Intel Sticker!s   Alphav -------i "Intel inside logo"n -------o Inside   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:36:29 -0400o( From: "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu>1 Subject: Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMSl/ Message-ID: <tjh3vl9aid8b15@corp.supernews.com>e  & Yes I have and this is their response:   Thomas,e  2 > I'm trying to get txt2pdf 5.0 working on OpenVMS   > Alpha.  + Have you already installed perl on OpenVMS?h   If not, you can read  / http://nucwww.chem.sunysb.edu/help/perl_l.htmlxe  . > The doc file for VMS is terrible and I can't   > get anything to work.t  2 We're not OpenVMS specialists. If you want you can   contact directly  5 OpenVMS/Alpha 7.1: tested by Dave Smith with VMS Perll   5.004_04   mailto:smith@nwoca.org   > It shouldn't be this hard.  + > Do you have an easier procedure for OVMS?r   Sorry, no other suggestion      1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagei# news:3B37F2E6.3211382B@wi.rr.com...y9 > Have you tried contacting Sanface directly for support?  >e > -scott >a > Thomas Steuver wrote:- >-G > > I've downloaded txt2pdf 5.0.  I have Perl 5 installed on my OpenVMSe (Alpha)(I > > system.  The VMS doc file included with txt2pdf is bad.  I can't make)G > > anything work.  Does anyone have an easier procedure to get txt2pdf2 working0 > > on the OVMS system?m > >r5 > > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message ' > > news:3B35EDF3.D9DF4DC1@wi.rr.com...s > > > txt2pdf from Sanface > > > www.sanface.comm > > >t > > > Thomas Steuver wrote:h > > >tH > > > > Is there a package like Adobe Acrobat that runs on OVMS Alpha to create > > PDFo > > > > files from text files? > > > >o > > > > Thanks,f > > > > Thomas Steuver$ > > > > Northern Kentucky University > > >? >a   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 15:07:04 GMT# From: dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.comn1 Subject: Re: Software to create PDF files on OVMS + Message-ID: <9ha8eo$ph6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>m  K On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:59:57 -0400, Thomas Steuver <steuver@nku.edu> wrote:0M > I've downloaded txt2pdf 5.0.  I have Perl 5 installed on my OpenVMS (Alpha)CG > system.  The VMS doc file included with txt2pdf is bad.  I can't makepM > anything work.  Does anyone have an easier procedure to get txt2pdf workingc > on the OVMS system?   B If you have a C compiler, you might try txt2pdf.c by P. G. Womack  ("BugBear").  One source is:5   http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=156eG It's a very simple program.  I've never compiled it on VMS, but if you   know C, it shouldn't be hard.m   -- a? Dale Dellutri -- dQdelQlutrQX@XQXentQeract.com (no Q's, no X's)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:18:11 -0400E( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Tastes Like Chicken+ Message-ID: <3B386163.769E01DD@bigfoot.com>o  F It has been a LONG time since I was on my grandmother's farm, but as IF remember, before she used to kill a chicken, the process was to fattenH it up a bit by feeding it some grain for a while.  And you NEVER let theF bird see you walk toward it directly, you always snuck up behind it toH grab it before chopping its head off.  And then of course you dunk it inE hot water to remove the feathers easier, but that's another story....hC Thank heavens that the non-paged pool over at ZKO isn't really deep-H enough to be a danger to despondent developers.  As I remember there's aH good enough view from the cafeteria so that they can post a lifeguard or something just in case.e   HM      C In article <UiKZ6.100$rc5.3751@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" % <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:   M > Actually, the engineers here in Nashua seem, well, to be almost universally3J > positive about this.  At the same time as it was announced, we also wereL > told our headcount would increase by a number that we will be hard pressed+ > to find engineers to fill quickly enough.e   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:00:33 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)h: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <+fyHd38zmaof@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3B3814B5.31033974@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > "Main, Kerry" wrote:N >> Quote from the press release "A portion of these engineers will remain withO >> Compaq to complete a next-generation Alpha microprocessor development efforteF >> currently underway but will transfer to Intel as their projects are
 >> completed"; > M > The way I read this is: " a portion of employee will be transfered a littleE7 > later, after they have finished writing some reports.c > 9 > Isn't the EV7 project essentially almost complete now ?-  B Not at all.  There has not even been public discussion of what theB systems will look like, and it still provides rumor fodder for the likes of Charlie Matco.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:47:25 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) : Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated0 Message-ID: <009FE194.52BD82D6@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <qtSZ6.6051$P5.2432774@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:m {...snip...}H >Compaq management LACK.  Compaq will go down in history as the PC cloneB >manufacturer that was handed a golden opportunity and botched it.   Hear hear!!!   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            lO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:35:28 GMTo. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated: Message-ID: <kk%Z6.7347$P5.2794984@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>   Hiya Kerry, long time no chat.  4 Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4A1945B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net... > Aaron,L > I am not saying that the entire picture is rosy (it still has much left to? > be filled in), but is not every vendor in the same position ?n >) > - Win32 --> Win64   L Up until yesterday, Alpha customers were NOT in that position.  <blink> It'sI summer in the Alpha camp. Compaq lied to us about a 25 year roadmap, even I recently reciting it.  Given their history with supporting Digital legacypC products, one can only wonder how long they have been planning thiseH particular assasination.  And therefore, one has to wonder how long have" they been lying to us about Alpha.  I > Given that, in most cases, various levels of emulation capabilities arerC > stopgaps until the code can be recompiled into a native image, doi	 Customerss; > have much of a choice with whatever platform they choose?   H Oh yeah, that IA32 emulator will come in real handy.  Well, perhaps IA69C will have the legacy IA32 emulator ripped out and an Alpha emulatortK inserted.  Oooh, that will take up a lot of chip real estate -- yeah, let's L count on Intel to do what a few hundred thousand OpenVMS customers need.  If! there are that many by that time.   J Well, we can just do it in software.  Now where did I leave the mantra I'mH supposed to chant about value in "upgrading" from 64 bit Alpha to 64 bitH IA64?  Gee, I knew I had it right next to my 32 bit VAX to Alpha upgrade	 mantra...e   Aaron' --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/ "F u cn rd ds, U mst uz UNIX.o1  If you can read this, you could handle OpenVMS."o   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 08:45:05 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)1: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated3 Message-ID: <jO1MpawdtwoI@eisner.encompasserve.org>9  V In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes:  , > How much do you think it will cost to moveI > VMS to another platform?  There is no way to recoup this cost by new or  > even existing VMS revenue.  I Nonsense.  VMS revenues in one year alone would easily pay for the port.  A That's the one reason the sceptical can have faith that Compaq isMH serious about running VMS on IA-64.  For a small enough investment (evenE if it's big numbers), they get to keep big profits going (much biggerI	 numbers).   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationl= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupiE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingx   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:55:06 -0400t( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <3B38862A.B6792FFC@bigfoot.com>6  E I'll make the same request of you as I did of Mr. Kilgallen.  Show meaH your numbers, and identify the source.  And could I interest you is some< low-premium flood insurance? Would you like fries with that?   HM   Bob Koehler wrote: > X > In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > . > > How much do you think it will cost to moveK > > VMS to another platform?  There is no way to recoup this cost by new orh > > even existing VMS revenue. > J > Nonsense.  VMS revenues in one year alone would easily pay for the port.C > That's the one reason the sceptical can have faith that Compaq isdJ > serious about running VMS on IA-64.  For a small enough investment (evenG > if it's big numbers), they get to keep big profits going (much bigger: > numbers).  > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationF? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:08:31 +0100f- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>w: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated/ Message-ID: <3B38894F.ECE233B9@herald.ox.ac.uk>n   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:" > And could I interest you is some> > low-premium flood insurance? Would you like fries with that?   You make a lot of noise.   -- c http://i.am/getting_married , ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:27:20 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated: Message-ID: <Y40_6.7551$P5.2826318@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  8 Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:jO1MpawdtwoI@eisner.encompasserve.org...t; > In article <3B37E25A.57D5BD4C@bigfoot.com>, Hamlyn Mootooo <univms@bigfoot.com> writes: > . > > How much do you think it will cost to moveK > > VMS to another platform?  There is no way to recoup this cost by new or7 > > even existing VMS revenue. > J > Nonsense.  VMS revenues in one year alone would easily pay for the port.  @ Yes, they probably could, at today's Alpha-based profit margins.  G Now, let's move that to a commodity Inhel platform.  Even with the sameeI profit margin, the profits are smaller.  Even with the same customer baset1 (ha!) you wind up with less revenue, less profit.g   Aaronw --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/K "Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!" (Anonymous Alpha Engineer)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:53:16 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated+ Message-ID: <3B3893CC.1E507AFB@bigfoot.com>   G Can't argue with that. Guilty as charged.  If only Compaq had made some  noise about VMS.   HM   Peter Harding wrote: >  > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:$ > > And could I interest you is some@ > > low-premium flood insurance? Would you like fries with that? >  > You make a lot of noise. >  > -- > http://i.am/getting_marriedi. > ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:04:01 +0100o  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comU Subject: Re: The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64posting)hH Message-ID: <OF20E3A0DE.61AC6D69-ON80256A77.004759F6@qedi.quintiles.com>  G You've given us two "pro"s and one "con" here but I'm not sure that thesF "con" really holds water in the short, medium and perhaps longer term.J We've been complaining that we would like a VMS system that has all of theG modern desktop tools on it.  Ok, so we don't like BillyBloatware but we J would like a word processor at a commodity price, as well as a spreadsheet and the other desktop stuff.  E Maybe this would be easier in the post-Alpha days of OpenVMS with theiI operating system running on IA64....?  Or maybe even Sun would be able tol$ provide StarOffice on OpenVMS IA64 ?   Stevet   LBohan wrote : >>>n pro:   could become Cheap..          (A laptop qual'ed to run VMS would be           a nice thing.)     pro:   VMS could potentialy rund'          linux and/or NT IA64 binaries.t1          the actual probability, i think, is Nil,z,          but nevertheless at least possible.   con:  (well, who would want to?s           unless forced to ..) <<<    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:37:36 +0000 (UTC)f' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)aU Subject: Re: The Glass is Half Empty, or Half Full ? (yet another VMS on IA64posting)b+ Message-ID: <9ha370$975$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>>  k In article <OF20E3A0DE.61AC6D69-ON80256A77.004759F6@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:e >o >qH >You've given us two "pro"s and one "con" here but I'm not sure that theG >"con" really holds water in the short, medium and perhaps longer term. K >We've been complaining that we would like a VMS system that has all of theaH >modern desktop tools on it.  Ok, so we don't like BillyBloatware but weK >would like a word processor at a commodity price, as well as a spreadsheet  >and the other desktop stuff.a >eF >Maybe this would be easier in the post-Alpha days of OpenVMS with theJ >operating system running on IA64....?  Or maybe even Sun would be able to% >provide StarOffice on OpenVMS IA64 ?a >   ? Why should this be any easier just because the chip is common ?l. Can we run TRU64 binaries on Alpha VMS today ?E Could we run any (of admittedly short list ) of WNT/ALPHA binaries on  VMS Alpha or TRU64 Alpha ? -G Could we run FX!32 on WNT/ALPHA to translate Intel WNT binaries to run t on VMS on Alpha ?-  J If you are talking about compiling code rather than binary emulation then N you have exactly the same problems as you have porting a generic Unix app from TRU64 to VMS today.     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:54:19 GMTa From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>& Subject: The value of a Compaq promise' Message-ID: <3B382389.5FC30B08@home.nl>   F The following letter will give us a good example how to value Compaq's% "commitment"  to port VMS and Tru64::e    /                        To Our Valued Customers:n  F                        Over the past few months, we have taken a close" look at Compaqs platform strategyH                        and the needs of our customers. We concluded that we needed to simplify our!>                        strategy, more clearly define our value. proposition for you, and reinforce our messageG                        to you that Compaq is unequivocally committed to- Alpha for the long term.  G                        The Compaq NonStopTM server platform strategy isf! clear and straightforward. We areaE                        focused on two key segments: Industry StandardS Servers (Compaq ProLiant) and H                        Business Critical Servers for customers requiring# the highest levels of availability,,C                        scalability, reliability, data integrity ands	 security.r  G                        As our underlying processor technology, Alpha isg  absolutely key to our profitableC                        growth and market leadership in the Business-( Critical Server segment. As a result, weD                        are investing aggressively in multiple future( generations of Alpha chip technology andD                        a robust Alpha system roadmap. Our plan is to" drive Alpha at the high end of theG                        enterprise market, where our strengths in 64-bite platforms, Compaq NonStopTMnA                        technology and clustering help you build a/& competitive advantage. We have alreadyF                        announced an aggressive plan to grow Tru64 UNIX on Alpha systems in such keyG                        markets as high performance technical computing,i e-commerce, telecommunicationsD                        and enterprise applications, among others. We& will drive Alpha volumes by leveragingH                        the growth of Linux. We will continue to maintain the highest levels of customerC                        satisfaction for our OpenVMS customers. This ( includes a five-year rolling roadmap andE                        investment in OpenVMS in the areas of businessp' critical capabilities and software thatcH                        enable Compaq NonStopTM solutions. And as we also announced, Alpha will becomeF                        the engine for future generations of our Compaq NonStopTM Himalaya systems.w  B                        Our commitment to Alpha is a sound one that! provides Compaq and our customers.G                        with unique competitive advantages. As you know,c Alpha has maintained itsF                        unquestioned performance leadership against all% other CPU architectures since January E                        1993. We plan to maintain and extend this lead-" with a fully funded R+D program toG                        ensure continued delivery of leadership productsR to the market.  <                        Specifically, we are now shipping our1 third-generation EV6 CPU chip in our full line ofsG                        Compaq AlphaServer systems, available today withe 1 to 14 processors, and haveG                        begun shipping faster versions of these productsc based on the EV67 CPU chip. InH                        addition, we have just introduced the AlphaServer SC series of supercomputers to?                        extend our #1 position in mid-range high ( performance technical computing into theE                        traditional >$1M supercomputer space. By earlyl# 2000, we will begin rolling out ourtF                        next-generation high-end AlphaServer with up to 32 processors. Our AlphaH                        manufacturing partner, Samsung, recently publicly demonstrated an advancedD                        development version of the EV68 CPU chip, the' first to break the 1GHz barrier. And weGB                        have an exciting Alpha roadmap ahead of us,& including EV7, EV8, EV9 and EV10, withF                        a plan to offer a full line of systems based on" these generations. In EV8, we willD                        implement a new CPU methodology, Simultaneous# Multi-Threading, which was recentlycD                        introduced at the MicroProcessor Forum in San Jose, California..  E                        With these commitments, Compaq offers the most ! powerful set of platforms and the F                        widest range of choices to deliver the greatest" value for you  from Windows NT on<                        our ProLiant servers and Professional+ Workstations . . . to Tru64 UNIX, Linux andeD                        OpenVMS on Alpha . . . to NonStopTM Himalaya.  @                        We appreciate your business, we value our* relationship with you, and we look forward?                        to building an even stronger partnershipe	 together.i  !                        Sincerely,r                               Bill Heil9                        Vice President and General Managerr8                        Business Critical Server Division      #                        Jesse Lipcont%                        Vice Presidento'                        Alpha Technologye   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:17:13 GMT>. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>* Subject: Re: The value of a Compaq promise: Message-ID: <d3%Z6.7343$P5.2780967@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  K Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3B382389.5FC30B08@home.nl...sH > The following letter will give us a good example how to value Compaq's' > "commitment"  to port VMS and Tru64::r >f >d1 >                        To Our Valued Customers:n >o :r# :[snip customer letter from Compaq]  :e    J Ah, so they promised specifics for Alpha, with a multi-year plan, multipleJ hardware variants _specifically_ defined and promised, and they still axedF it.  I guess that's their perogative, it is their processor after all.  G Let's compare that against what they said for OpenVMS.  Hmmm, where wasiG OpenVMS mentioned.  Well after Alpha, well after Himalaya, after Tru64.tJ After Linux.  We know where they placed it in the lineup of family jewels.  @ Okay, but what did they say?  They're going to maintain customerK satisfaction -- that can be done a number of ways, and only their marketingpL method of counting customer satisfaction will be what they report.  "Are youB happy with the tools Compaq has provided in the port of OpenVMS toI alternative platforms?"  as opposed to "Are you  happy with the fact that K OpenVMS was retired and you were forced to use migration tools to move yourf; app to UNIX or NT?"  Customer satisfaction, yeah, goodness.   J And a rolling 5 year roadmap.  Until yesterday it showed OpenVMS on Alpha.H Oh, so the roadmap can change whenever Compaq feels like it?  Okay, well it's their roadmap after all.m  8 Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.   Aarono --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/ "F u cn rd ds, U mst uz UNIX.s1  If you can read this, you could handle OpenVMS."i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:00:53 GMTp2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VMS on IA641 Message-ID: <Fs1_6.144$rc5.5005@news.cpqcorp.net>5  G   I've had about twenty-four hours to (start to) come up to speed, and r<   I'm off looking at architectural-level issues right now.    [ In article <3B3781BE.28390.93B5AC8@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes:nH :>   Based on a quick check of one of the larger of the source librariesH :>   of OpenVMS Alpha operating system code around, Macro32 leads C and  :>   Bliss32 modules.  :tF :Can we assume that moving to IA64 will be a smaller jump than moving C :from VAX to Alpha?  Are there any plans to change features in VMS?d     I don't know.  9  I   I would expect to see few or no source changes required in the typical tH   case.  That said, there are simply things and constructs that are not D   portable across architectures -- there are features that specific H   platforms can offer for better operations, and there are historically H   a subset of applications that are tightly twisted into the underlying    architecture.f  D :It also appears that IA64 will have a Macro32 compiler.  One of my D :client's products depends on it -- good thing VMS itself does, too.  C   I would expect to see a Macro32 compiler or a Macro32 translator.o  D :Will DECmigrate be resurrected to support VAX code on IA64?  Or is 2 :the tradition of supporting VAX forever now gone?  E   The initial goal for the engineering team is baseline capabilities,rE   with a parallel effort from the staffers here that are working more H   directly with ISVs to determine what else we need to provide, and how.  F :And how about migrating Alpha code to IA64?  Will there be something G :like DECmigrate, or must we recompile from sources?  Will Compaq C on o8 :IA64 look identical to Compaq C on Alpha?  (I hope so.)  H   Source compatibility, though we may well determine we need to provide    a translator or an emulator.  F :And will the IA64 Compaq C compiler still have a VAX C mode?  I have  :gobs of VAX C code...  I   As Compaq C has VAX C mode, I would initially tend to assume this would J   still be available.  I'd strongly encourage get to native ANSI C format 8   regardless, as this process tends to find latent bugs.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:00:35 -0500s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>k! Subject: VMS on Itanic - Blame meo' Message-ID: <3B38A393.8C605B6A@fsi.net>   C In another thread, I read someone who posted the notion of buying a D VMS-capable system from a non-Compaq vendor, then buying VMS off the shelf at the same place.  D Some three or so years ago, I first posted the following text to the$ internet on my DJE Systems web site:  2 "The next great favor Digital could do for itself?     ; "An off-the-shelf, 'shrink-wrapped' OpenVMS for VAX, Alpha e: and for Intel/x86. You can get Linux at CompUSA (not less 0 than three different distributions in a single, 4 shrink-wrapped package). You can get FreeBSD at the 4 bookstore or on the Internet. Yet, these are 'free' 9 operating systems! DOS and Windows are also sold retail, p off-the-shelf. h    e: "Imagine if that tremendous market were at last opened up + to OpenVMS... Build it - they _WILL_ come!"h   (from text dated 1-6-98)   This COULD be MY fault!F  G Not first time I've shot my mouth off and created a world of trouble...     My sincerest apologies to all...   -- . David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/:  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:14:01 -0400 0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot>J Subject: Re: VMS Software support access in queue with the wintel weenies?5 Message-ID: <nN0_6.39877$TW.199867@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>e  7 I guess you weren't lucky. Or their system went bezerk.   9 Whenever I call I can talk to someone in under 2 minutes.s --   Syltremi; http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site)i    @ "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> a crit dans le message news:2 cc5619f2.0106211320.74e72ed6@posting.google.com...A > I needed to place a software support call for VMS on one of our H > systems today.  Called the number, option 2 for software (note that PCG > support is a different selection), and got a recording that wait times > would be 15 minutes. >.H > I don't need to call often, but I've never had anything near this everG > happen before when calling the support number.  At least not anywhereb0 > other than the consumer peecee support side... >tE > Is this just the way it is these days?  Do we now stand in the sameaF > line as all the blue-screened presario and proliant users?  Or did I" > just hit an abnormally bad time? > H > 15 minutes!  Sheesh!  Its like the time I had to call the Q because myB > mom-in-laws q-box (she bought it without asking me :) had died a > horrible software death... >d
 > Rich Jordan 9 > feeling like a peecee user instead of a VMS customer...g   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 02:15:52 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)r$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....3 Message-ID: <90aXtm8ewUgA@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  P In article <3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com>, Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:F > Regarding the messages in comp.os.vms after Compaq's announcement to > port VMS to IA64:- > J > Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and the' > awful new VAX systems were announced?sC > Did everyone piss and moan and proclaim that the sky was falling?s  A Well they did when Jupiter (Tops x0 machine that never made it to > production) was cancelled.  Kvetching is in the genes.  Why doE you think the human genome people were given a good price on Alphas ?o  / > No, VMS is not going to dry up and blow away.kE > No, this is not the week you should switch jobs and give up on VMS. G > If anything, there's going to be more work in the future as companiesm > migrate from AlphaJ > to VMS.  Get a few of those migrations under your belt and you'll have a > pretty handsome resume.O > H > If more and more of you "veterans" quit and run away, that just leaves, > more job opportunities for the rest of us. > H > Hell, I might just hang out my shingle a few years from now and travel3 > around the country helping companies migrate fromi! > Alpha (or VAX) to VMS-on-Intel.t > E > The best Alpha chip engineers will be joining forces with the Intel 3 > Itanium chip designers to come up with a kick-asslF > system. It's going to be better than anything we have today.  Why is > this a bad thing?< > H > We'll have Intel-based servers that will crush today's top-of-the-line > AlphaServers.i  E Ok folks, raise your hands you are disappointed that the same companyHD that makes VMS no longer designs their own disk drives.  The rest of2 you, I presume, had an RA81 with ineffective glue.  E Also raise your hands if you want the privilege of supporting a greatrC operating system by paying more money for non-standard disk drives.m  6 Now keep your hands raised until I return to the room.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:06:16 -0400i( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....+ Message-ID: <3B383468.613F95CC@bigfoot.com>   E And raise your hands if you believe that the company that MADE VMS iso5 still in existence (DEC). That's it keep 'em up high.n   HM   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > G > Ok folks, raise your hands you are disappointed that the same companyaF > that makes VMS no longer designs their own disk drives.  The rest of4 > you, I presume, had an RA81 with ineffective glue. > G > Also raise your hands if you want the privilege of supporting a greatrE > operating system by paying more money for non-standard disk drives.  > 8 > Now keep your hands raised until I return to the room.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:36:56 GMTr. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....: Message-ID: <Yd0_6.7599$P5.2832618@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  / Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagei# news:3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com... F > Regarding the messages in comp.os.vms after Compaq's announcement to > port VMS to IA64:  >oJ > Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and the' > awful new VAX systems were announced?uC > Did everyone piss and moan and proclaim that the sky was falling?     K Props to you, Scott.  I remember feeling that way as NT on Alpha was dying,nI just before the axe fell.  Everyone else was pissing and moaning that the L sky was falling, but not me.  Nope, I kept saying that Alpha was king, InhelI sucked, NT on Alpha was great, 64 bit NT futures were way ahead on Alpha.   E Then I found out how strong the Wintel megalopoly really was.  All my  dreams, gone in one day.  H That's okay, I said -- I'll stick to my strong suit and play the OpenVMS Alpha card I've got.  ) Now, half of that card's been blown away.o  K My guess is that rather than port VMS to IA64, they'll find it's cheaper toaB port pieces of VMS to Tru64 on IA64 and increase Tru64 marketshareL overnight.  And those customers who remain to swallow this lump will be moreL than happy to say "hmmm, tastes great, less filling" and the marketeers willI say "surveys show that Compaq customers are happy with our decision to doA away with VMS."e  $ Figures don't lie, but liars figure.  L Someone who cares about OpenVMS needs to take it over from Compaq before it, too, gets Compaq-ted.    Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/K "Oh my God, they killed Alpha!!!  You bastards!" (Anonymous Alpha Engineer)    ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 13:48:28 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....+ Message-ID: <9ha3rc$qeo$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>   ) In article <3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com>,e'  Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes:sG |> Regarding the messages in comp.os.vms after Compaq's announcement tol |> port VMS to IA64: |> eK |> Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and thet( |> awful new VAX systems were announced?D |> Did everyone piss and moan and proclaim that the sky was falling?  A They didn't have to.  The PDP never went away.  It is still beingtD developed, manufactured and supported today.  There are even desktop@ PDP's available today.  And development and support of the threeC most common DEC PDP OSes and BSD 2.11 has also continued.  And just A recently, Ultrix-11 was revivred and is being brought up to date. E Can the same be said of the VAX??  Will the same be true of the Alphau in one year?? Two??    bill   -- TJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:05:05 -0600c% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> $ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010626075716.027e3828@ntbsod.psccos.com>  - At 07:48 AM 6/26/2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:o* >In article <3B37FEB3.2449B8EA@wi.rr.com>,) >  Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> writes: H >|> Regarding the messages in comp.os.vms after Compaq's announcement to >|> port VMS to IA64:t >|>aL >|> Man, did it sound like this when the PDP systems were going away and the) >|> awful new VAX systems were announced?tE >|> Did everyone piss and moan and proclaim that the sky was falling?  >eB >They didn't have to.  The PDP never went away.  It is still beingE >developed, manufactured and supported today.  There are even desktopaA >PDP's available today.  And development and support of the threelD >most common DEC PDP OSes and BSD 2.11 has also continued.  And justB >recently, Ultrix-11 was revivred and is being brought up to date.F >Can the same be said of the VAX??  Will the same be true of the Alpha >in one year?? Two??  M At this stage in their respective lives, the PDP was in MUCH worse shape thaniG the VAX is now, let alone VMS in general.  Towards the end, the PDP was I dwindling down and nobody paid attention to it.  I know, I was doing PDP   support = for DEC at that time, and we felt like the bastard stepchild.l  J But anybody who thinks the VAX won't be around for at least as long as theO PDP-11 has been, isn't clued in.  Why are PDP-11's being made?  Because there'ssM a market.  One big enough for a multi-billion $$$$ company to do?  No, hence,n Mentek.a  K Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, knows what's going to happen to VMS.  But I feelmJ pretty confident in saying it's going to be around for another 10 years atK least, simply because it HAS to be if COE is going to be followed.  And COE 6 represents a market CPQ simply can't afford to ignore.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |uI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------   Date: 26 Jun 2001 14:31:30 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: What about performance issues??+ Message-ID: <9ha6c2$qeo$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>,  ? It has been said here that VMS performance, particularly I/O ism@ considerably slower than under other OSes.  Is this true, or wasB it just the unjustified rantings of people not in a place to know?? If it is in fact true, won't this become even more apparent ando= detrimental once VMS is running on the same hardware as theses other OSes??   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:03:10 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)o, Subject: Re: What about performance issues??* Message-ID: <9ha87e$8mr$1@lisa.gemair.com>  + In article <9ha6c2$qeo$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>,t- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: @ >It has been said here that VMS performance, particularly I/O isA >considerably slower than under other OSes.  Is this true, or wasnC >it just the unjustified rantings of people not in a place to know? @ >If it is in fact true, won't this become even more apparent and> >detrimental once VMS is running on the same hardware as these
 >other OSes??  >o  @ If this is true, I'd rather the performance issues be out in the? open, subject to apples-to-apples comparisons rather than just  0 buried in a lot of confusing configuration data.  D What I'm trying to say is rather than trying to make the performance; problems less apparent, let's fix the performance problems.e   >billy >e >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolveshE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.i >University of Scranton   |1B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      -Jordan Hendersono jordan@greenapple.comu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:11:53 +1000 - From: "Paul Nankervis" <paulnank@au1.ibm.com>c2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?/ Message-ID: <9h993n$8mns$1@poknews.pok.ibm.com>   ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message,* news:eZHZ6.83$rc5.3791@news.cpqcorp.net... >l >s? >   At least some of y'all wanted OpenVMS on Intel, and well...,  9 But I'm not sure that this is what we had in mind!!!  :-)   J I must admit that the death of Alpha initially hit hard but now it doesn't seemG so bad.  It is a real pity that Alpha wasn't more widely accepted - but 
 given thatH it wasn't it makes sense to move on to using a processor which will have moreI R&D dollars behind it.  In the last few years Alpha was beginning to look  a bit neglected.  J On the software front the move to a new processor shouldn't be too painfulH after having already gone through a VAX to Alpha transition. We now seemL to have source code for nearly everything and all of our new code is writtenG in a higher level language - usually C. We never had to learn very muchs aboutrG Alpha specific architecture. So maybe this is a bit like a Unix to Unixa upgradeAL where most things just re-compile and run?   Of course this assumes that allI the compilers and tools will be available in the new environment and thato- vendors will provide recompiled applications.g  , Who knows - maybe this will be a good thing?   Paul Nankervis   ------------------------------  / Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:04:01 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?6 Message-ID: <200106260659.IAA23059@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Larry Kilgallen wrotes:h   >>>t) Not if one believes the press release at:b  9 	http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2001/pr2001062501.htmlr  M "Compaq will immediately begin to port Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS and NonStop Kernel)J  operating systems and development tools to the Itanium processor family." <<<   H At first I don't believe that press release. Second, if all the softwareE engineers are working on migrate OpenVMS to Intanium, who can OpenVMSAJ make better in this time? We need better performance tools, better system-D managment tools, tools which make the dayly work easier, and we needD new software or software releases under OpenVMS. Where should do it?   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:33:04 -0700F1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>-2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?3 Message-ID: <3B38026F.199CAC6C@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>r   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  6 > They used INTEL as a synonym to cheap/mass hardware.N > But they would have taken Alpha in favor if Alpha would have been cheap/mass > either...t  L   What's wrong with this picture:  Compaq is moving away from Alpha to IA-64I   to get commodity pricing on its chips.  Intel is moving away from IA-32 ;   to IA-64 to get away from commodity pricing on its chips.m   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:11:52 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 2 Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?3 Message-ID: <PDLFQnBt$w79@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  o In article <Yv84iWEtfT6x@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: K >> We've had production(?) quality 386 and later chips since 1991. The timerB >> to port was then. Now is too late - the market OpenVMS is dead. > G > Your question mark is exactly the point.  The IA-32 installed base is 4 > a hopeless quagmire of divergent hardware designs.  J And you think that mass market IA64 processors will be anything different?   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:14:20 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)sJ Subject: Re: What does Alphas dead means for VMS ?  <- What does this mean3 Message-ID: <vgWsL+kYJV+g@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251917250.16249-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:! > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, Jon wrote:-% >> What will this change mean to COE?0 > K > Best to ask one of the COE folks in ZK0 about this, but assuming that VMSuG > is successfully ported to the Alpha-betized IA-64, there should be noT
 > impact.   D More interestingly, what about the 5 year commitment to the WildfireK archetecture? Will that be updated with an INTEL Inside sticker in a couplet  years. Will it divide correctly?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:01:40 +0100* From: "Rachael Padman" <rp10001@cam.ac.uk>0 Subject: Re: Where to obtain VMS2IMAP or similar0 Message-ID: <9ha4ce$794$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  D Many thanks to those who replied both to the group and privately. InL retrospect, my question should indeed have been how to convert VMS mail to a? unix-recognized format. Apologies for not having understood the'A not-very-subtleties involved. IMAP seemed like the easiest way totJ incorporate archival VMS mail into the current system, where everyone usesE the mail client of their choice, either under Windows or Linux. DavidoG Mathog's program (posted here on the 14th of June) did exactly what wasnE needed -- to read the VMS mail folders and translate to a unix formats% accessible to our (unix) IMAP server.c  H I'm afraid the reason for doing this is so that we can shut down the fewI remaining VMS systems at MRAO, which are now only used as a mail archive,iK most people taking new mail via IMAP servers on a central unix system. It's-E a great shame, but at least VMS will be remembered with much the sameg' fondness as the PDP series, and RT11...W   Regardsm ____ Rachael Padman3 MRAO, Cavendish Laboratory, University of Cambridgec* Madingly Road, Cambridge, CB3 0HE, ENGLAND   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:19:24 +0100 - From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk> C Subject: RE: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?yS Message-ID: <0262A6086BFBD411959500508B69C5EA01ADD4CD@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>p  J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0FE31.DAE57FA0  Content-Type: text/plain;v 	charset="iso-8859-1"a  K That's rally useful info.  It is so good to know WHY something is withdrawn I - especially if you might be affected by it (I couldn't get the kit so amiI not affected - this time!).  A statement like "a new kit is forth coming"VL does not tell me much and does not allay any fears if I had (or intented to) install the old version.   -----Original Message-----: From: Dave Harrold [mailto:DRHarrold.nospam@earthlink.net] Sent: 22 June 2001 19:48 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComhC Subject: Re: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?t      1 On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:27:39 +0100, Martin WalkerM  <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk> wrote:  I >Maybe "ECP Collector and ECP Analyzer for VMS is free." but when I go toeD >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/performance-and-capacity.htmlJ >it says "Try again later, a new kit is forth coming. " (and has been that >way for weeks (months?))c6 >What use is something that's free if I can't have it?  E It wasn't much use before either.  It collects great data, but it waskE corrupting the path information for multipath devices.  I have a betae? test of the new kit, but am a little uneasy about putting on my E production cluster, which is the only place I have multipath devices.a   Dave Harrold      L ============================================================================
 =========== Dave Harrold                                          E-Mail:0 David_Harrold@Aurora.orgL Sr. Software Systems Engineer                         Phone : (414) 647-6204L Aurora Health Care                                    FAX   : (414) 647-4999I 3031 W. Montana Street                                Milwaukee, WI 53234h  H "A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is tot/ underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."s      A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be iF legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the  help desk on (+44)(0)870 8704820' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0FE31.DAE57FA0: Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"7+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablet  1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">3 <HTML> <HEAD>H <XETA HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8= 859-1">oH <XETA NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653= 12">H <TITLE>RE: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for Console Manager?</TITL= E> </HEAD>n <BODY>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>That's rally useful info.&nbsp; It is so good to know=H  WHY something is withdrawn - especially if you might be affected by it=H  (I couldn't get the kit so am not affected - this time!).&nbsp; A stat=H ement like &quot;a new kit is forth coming&quot; does not tell me much =H and does not allay any fears if I had (or intented to) install the old = version.</FONT></P>m  3 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>.H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Dave Harrold [<A HREF=3D"mailto:DRHarrold.nosp=C am@earthlink.net">mailto:DRHarrold.nospam@earthlink.net</A>]</FONT>o2 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: 22 June 2001 19:48</FONT>3 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com</FONT>rH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Q] Is there a non-CA replacement for C= onsole Manager?</FONT> </P> <BR> <BR>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:27:39 +0100, Martin Walker</FO= NT>l@ <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk&gt; wrote:</FONT> </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Maybe &quot;ECP Collector and ECP Analyzer for VM=( S is free.&quot; but when I go to</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;<A HREF=3D"http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms=H /performance-and-capacity.html" TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.openvms.co=9 mpaq.com/openvms/performance-and-capacity.html</A></FONT>yH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;it says &quot;Try again later, a new kit is fort=* h coming. &quot; (and has been that</FONT>6 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;way for weeks (months?))</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;What use is something that's free if I can't hav= e it?</FONT> </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It wasn't much use before either.&nbsp; It collects g= reat data, but it was</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>corrupting the path information for multipath device= s.&nbsp; I have a beta</FONT>kH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>test of the new kit, but am a little uneasy about pu= tting on my</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>production cluster, which is the only place I have m= ultipath devices.</FONT> </P>  % <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dave Harrold</FONT>o </P> <BR> <BR>  I <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=eI =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=rC =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>bH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dave Harrold&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=H p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=H sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=H bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E-Mail=! : David_Harrold@Aurora.org</FONT>-H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sr. Software Systems Engineer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=H ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=H p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone : (414) 647-62=	 04</FONT>wH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Aurora Health Care&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=H p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=H sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=H bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FAX&nbsp;&nbsp; : (414) 647-4999</FO= NT>mH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3031 W. Montana Street&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=H &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=H ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=) p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Milwaukee, WI 53234</FONT>d </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;A common mistake people make when trying to des=/ ign something completely foolproof is to</FONT>sH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.&quot;= </FONT>l </P>   </BODY>  </HTML>p  H <HTML><BODY><P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial" size=3D2>This e-mai=H l including any attachments is confidential and may be <BR>legally priv=H ileged. If you have received it in error please advise the<BR>sender im=H mediately by return email and then delete it from your <BR>system. <BR>=H The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this <BR>e=H mail is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the<B=7 R>help desk on (+44)(0)870 8704820</FONT></BODY></HTML>O) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0FE31.DAE57FA0--a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.352 ************************