1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 29 Jun 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 358       Contents:A Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com  64 systems don't NEED windows ! Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows ! Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows ! Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows ' Apache CGI Problems on VMS with TCPware   BUGCHECK - Process Not In System Re: Changing platforms.  Re: Changing platforms.  Re: Changing platforms. , Combining lines of DCL code into one line???0 Re: Combining lines of DCL code into one line???0 Re: Combining lines of DCL code into one line???+ Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do? + Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?  Compaq insanity " Compaq replace AES/DSN with NT box Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 RE: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64 Re: Compaq switches to IA-64( re: Compaq switches to IA-64 (VAX float)- Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 - Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 - RE: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 - Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 - Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 - Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7 ( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?( Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale? RE: DECnet over IP?  DETARing OpenOffice on OpenVMS7 Found Great OpenVMS Security Software, System Detective ; Re: Found Great OpenVMS Security Software, System Detective   Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.  Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.$ Re: Golden Opportunity for Microsoft$ Re: Golden Opportunity for Microsoft How to lock a kernel mutex Re: How to lock a kernel mutex Re: IA64 Rocks My World  Re: Inform comedy continues  Re: Inform comedy....  Re: Inform comedy.... $ Internals and Data Structures Manual( Re: Internals and Data Structures Manual( Re: Internals and Data Structures Manual Re: iVMS Re: iVMS Re: iVMS Re: iVMS" Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?" Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?" Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?" Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation? Re: looking for old DEC gear: RE: Origin of iVMS? (was Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.) Porting quandry  RE: Porting quandry - Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...) - Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...)  Proposal, cheap iVMS early look  QIO parity error ? Re: QIO parity error ?
 Re: Rdb troll 
 Re: Rdb troll ) Re; One more dreadful thought to consider - RE: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider - Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider - Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider - Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider ) Re: Sending command to programs with pipe ) Re: Sending command to programs with pipe  Symposium: CETS-2001 Hotels  Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Hotels ' RE: Thanks Compaq for the new business! ' RE: Thanks Compaq for the new business! ' Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business! 1 Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated  The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS  Re: The future of VMS & Timing of the alpha-death announcement* Re: Timing of the alpha-death announcement$ VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone( Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)< Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.) Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning....  Re: Wailing and moaning.... + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + RE: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either + Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either  Why VMS on IA64 will succeed? % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS % Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS   Re: www.vms-support.com for saleP Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team  for sale  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:14:22 +0000 (UTC) ' From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.jyu.fi> J Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - but boycott www.compaqworkinggroup.com, Message-ID: <9hhdcu$ra9$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote: ... M > OpenVMS is a server op system.  It needs a good web server, middleware, etc  > !  > It is not to play MP3 !   J Rubbish! VMS is good for PC, workstation, server etc. . It has exceptionalE features for workstation work as for server work too. For example now F there is rising need for home PC which run easily and reliably "server3 runs" and can be easily clustered (diskless maybe).    regards           Osmo Kujala  F P.S. Can't keep up to date reading this forum. Folks, please keep away* discussion of waether, politics, cars etc.   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 15:26:09 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)& Subject: 64 systems don't NEED windows, Message-ID: <9hi6mh$e1v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  H The thing that strikes me as must ludicrous about Microsoft's attempt toI get into enterprise computing is that they insist on saddling a 64 bit OS G with a Windows interface.  Look around most datacenters and you'll find I that the bigger the iron, the less likely there is to be a graphics card, K let alone a spiffy GUI.  MS's strength in user interfaces isn't worth squat K in this market.  In fact, it has negative value, since the graphics tend to K destabilize the OS, and for performance reasons on smaller boxes they moved I GUI related functions into the kernel, where they can do the most damage. F The Windows GUI isn't an optional bit of software, like X11, or even aH "service" in the Windows sense, that you can turn on and off at will. InJ this sort of environment you don't want the console to bring down your 128G CPU monster database engine just because some itsy graphics program the E operator was running glitched.  The always on GUI interface is even a K problem on some smaller systems, where the wrong choice of screen saver can  bog down a file server.   H So if Intel's trying to get serious by pumping up the Itanium with AlphaJ developers and (maybe) techonology, shouldn't MS get serious by making it E possible to run without the Windows GUI in Windows 2003, at least for I enterprise usage?  And if they do so, aren't they pretty much back to the 1 bits of VMS they based NT on in the first place?     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:42:52 -0400  From: William_Bochnik@acml.com* Subject: Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows> Message-ID: <OF3240E0DF.1B47AE8B-ON85256A7A.005642B2@acml.com>  > agreed.  On top of all that, most GUI's are good for user type@ things, but very bad for sysadmin type things.  Command line and9 script interfaces are very good for sysadmin type things.       z                                                                                                                           z                     mathog@seqaxp.bio.c                                                                                   z                     altech.edu                         To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                                         z                                                        cc:                                                                z                     06/29/2001 11:26 AM        Subject:     64 systems don't NEED windows                                 z                                                                                                                           z                                                                                                                                 = The thing that strikes me as must ludicrous about Microsoft's 
 attempt to? get into enterprise computing is that they insist on saddling a 	 64 bit OS ; with a Windows interface.  Look around most datacenters and  you'll find : that the bigger the iron, the less likely there is to be a graphics card,? let alone a spiffy GUI.  MS's strength in user interfaces isn't  worth squat : in this market.  In fact, it has negative value, since the graphics tend to@ destabilize the OS, and for performance reasons on smaller boxes
 they movedA GUI related functions into the kernel, where they can do the most  damage. ? The Windows GUI isn't an optional bit of software, like X11, or  even a? "service" in the Windows sense, that you can turn on and off at  will. InA this sort of environment you don't want the console to bring down  your 128; CPU monster database engine just because some itsy graphics  program the > operator was running glitched.  The always on GUI interface is even aA problem on some smaller systems, where the wrong choice of screen 	 saver can  bog down a file server.   = So if Intel's trying to get serious by pumping up the Itanium 
 with Alpha? developers and (maybe) techonology, shouldn't MS get serious by 	 making it A possible to run without the Windows GUI in Windows 2003, at least  for = enterprise usage?  And if they do so, aren't they pretty much  back to the 0 bits of VMS they based NT on in the first place?   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, CaltechJ **************************************************************************' *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA  * J **************************************************************************          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy # all copies of the original message.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:42:50 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> * Subject: Re: 64 systems don't NEED windows8 Message-ID: <1c8pjtcng4ltkotd35mtbvng4i8v9esksq@4ax.com>  A On 29 Jun 2001 15:26:09 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David  Mathog) wrote:   > I >So if Intel's trying to get serious by pumping up the Itanium with Alpha K >developers and (maybe) techonology, shouldn't MS get serious by making it  F >possible to run without the Windows GUI in Windows 2003, at least for  E From Win2000 onwards it is possible to boot to DOS prompt (or command D mode as they call it now). Although the main reason this is there is for fixing gui problems.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:39:07 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com* Subject: Re: 64 systems don't NEED windowsH Message-ID: <OF989A7744.E96DB718-ON80256A7A.005B5ABA@qedi.quintiles.com>  C I think this has been around for a while Alan - I was told about it I regarding NT4 on servers, being able to specify the interface as CMD when  the server boots. - I'm not sure where the setting is though.....  Steve.   Alan Greig wrote:  >>> E From Win2000 onwards it is possible to boot to DOS prompt (or command D mode as they call it now). Although the main reason this is there is for fixing gui problems. <<<    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:16:25 GMT ' From: Tom Rataski <trataski@clwcpc.com> 0 Subject: Apache CGI Problems on VMS with TCPware8 Message-ID: <26apjtg5su4njpd4fplugkggci8phbfbef@4ax.com>  ? Has anyone successfully gotten Apache CGI to work with TCPware?   + We are running OpenVMS 7.2 w/TCPware V5.3-2   % Thanks for any replies in advance....    -TomR-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:56:24 -0400 + From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org> ) Subject: BUGCHECK - Process Not In System # Message-ID: <sb3c891c.089@aaas.org>   8 DS10, OpenVMS 7.2-1, list of applied ECOs at the bottom.  E I'm still having problems with SCSI disks attached to the system (Q = C replaced all the cables today), but I came in this morning to the = @ following bugcheck, and I'm wondering how concerned I should be.   TIA    <crash> J OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.2-1 - System Dump Analysis Crashdump Summary Information:  * Crash Time:        29-JUN-2001 08:15:04.952 Bugcheck Type:     PROCGONE, Process not in system' Node:              CESIUM  (Standalone) 2 CPU Type:          COMPAQ AlphaServer DS10 617 MHz VMS Version:       V7.2-1  Current Process:   STACONFIG  Current Image:     STACONFIG.EXE< Failing PC:        FFFFFFFF.889CAB40    EXE$EXIT_INT_C+001E0$ Failing PS:        18000000.00000003E Module:            IMAGE_MANAGEMENT    (Link Date/Time: 23-JAN-2001 =  08:38:09.95) Offset:            00012B40   * Boot Time:         29-JUN-2001 08:14:46.00* System Uptime:               0 00:00:18.95   System/CPU Type:   2208  Saved Processes:   3' Pagesize:          8 KByte (8192 bytes) > Physical Memory:   1024 MByte (131072 PFNs, contiguous memory) Dumpfile Pagelets: 23551 blocks 2 Dump Flags:        writecomp,errlogcomp,dump_style' Dump Type:         compressed,selective ) EXE$GL_FLAGS:      poolpging,init,bugdump 6 Paging Files:      1 Pagefile and 1 Swapfile installed   Failing Instruction: EXE$EXIT_INT_C+001E0:   BUGCHK </crash>   <ecos>& DEC-AXPVMS-DNVOSIECO02-V0702--4.PCSI;1' DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_ACRTL-V0200--4.PCSI;1 ( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_BACKUP-V0100--4.PCSI;1( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_CLIUTL-V0100--4.PCSI;1) DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_CPU2208-V0100--4.PCSI;1 & DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_DDTM-V0100--4.PCSI;1* DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_DQCONFIG-V0200--4.PCSI;1( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_DRIVER-V0200--4.PCSI;1$ DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_DV-V0100--4.PCSI;1& DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_F11X-V0200--4.PCSI;1* DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_IIDRIVER-V0100--4.PCSI;1% DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_IPC-V0100--4.PCSI;1 % DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_LAN-V0200--4.PCSI;1 ( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_LIBRTL-V0100--4.PCSI;1( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_LOADSS-V0100--4.PCSI;1( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_MANAGE-V0100--4.PCSI;1& DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_MIME-V0100--4.PCSI;1) DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_MOUNT96-V0200--4.PCSI;1 & DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI;1) DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PTHREAD-V0300--4.PCSI;1 & DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_QMAN-V0100--4.PCSI;1% DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_RMS-V0100--4.PCSI;1 ' DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_RTPAD-V0100--4.PCSI;1 + DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_SHADOWING-V0500--4.PCSI;1 % DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_SYS-V0900--4.PCSI;1 ( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_SYSLOA-V0100--4.PCSI;1( DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_UPDATE-V0100--4.PCSI;1 </ecos>    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:22:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s  Subject: Re: Changing platforms., Message-ID: <3B3C1E93.D23B0854@videotron.ca>   Duane Sand wrote:eB > The new plan is to continue offering similarly good systems withC > the same good software to the same (and perhaps growing) customere> > base but using a cheaper-to-develop but still fast cpu core. > I hope that works for us all.e    J But Compaq still won't be able to streamline its motherboar manufacturing,	 will it ??  K Would Tandem systems be able to use off-the-shelf motherboards, with all ofLM the fault tolerance built into the bus and disk controllers, or must a lot ofqF the fault tolerance functionality be integrated into the motherboard ?  J If the Tandem machines need to have custom made motherboards, do you agreeM that wether they are based on IA64 of Alpha or Mips, that it costs Compaq the  same to design and build ?  N While the use of custom or standard motherboards may be easy to answer for theM Tandem machines, the big question is whether VMS machines will also use their G own custom designed motherboards to offer better reliability and bettersN support for stuff such as Galaxies, or whether they will just plug in standard# motherboards on which VMS will run.   I What is interesting though is that if Compaq does start to build "Galaxy"sF style motherboards for VMS and Unix, I would expect Microsoft to startJ supporting Galaxies/Wildfires with NT and that might make NT a more potentK competitor in the true enterprise arena. This is where Compaq would gain anrE edge over Dell by transfering its VMS expertise into NT servers, thusf- differentiating itself from other box makers.u  L Question: are the engineers responsible for building Wildfires transfered to% Intel or will they remain at Compaq ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:16:27 -0400u' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>m  Subject: Re: Changing platforms.( Message-ID: <9hh9ps$j19$1@pyrite.mv.net>  9 "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> wrote in message.: news:LBU_6.139045$%i7.93197619@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...   ...r  K > I don't challenge that VMS makes nice earnings from offering good systemse@ > with good software features to a very desirable customer base.G > But somehow the net total of everything associated with Alpha, ie thenI > entire division formerly known as Digital, is consistently losing moneys > every quarter,  L There are formerly-Digital areas of Compaq, such as storage, that are not inJ any direct way associated with Alpha, so your 'ie' above is inappropriate.L It's also possible that you're not including things like service revenue forE Alpha products.  But whatever the reason, the finance numbers for the H limited portion of the directly-Alpha-related business that I'm familiarG with strongly suggest to me that you haven't a clue what you're talkingeI about:  I'm not sufficiently interested to dredge up the numbers to provem= (or disprove) it, but it would be nice if someone else could.s   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:03:15 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)u  Subject: Re: Changing platforms., Message-ID: <YxtAWt5Tetid@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <3B3C1E93.D23B0854@videotron.ca>, h3     JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:h > L > If the Tandem machines need to have custom made motherboards, do you agreeO > that wether they are based on IA64 of Alpha or Mips, that it costs Compaq thes > same to design and build ? > M      Aren't Tandem systems in the "if you have to ask what it costs you can't O afford it" class anyway. I can't see the cost of engineering motherboards beinge a big concern for them.g  P > While the use of custom or standard motherboards may be easy to answer for theO > Tandem machines, the big question is whether VMS machines will also use their.I > own custom designed motherboards to offer better reliability and betterlP > support for stuff such as Galaxies, or whether they will just plug in standard% > motherboards on which VMS will run.c >   A     Why would Compaq want to build "VMS special" servers that hadhM reliability features different than their Windows servers? It seems to me thetJ entire point of this exercise is to reduce the number of different systemsL they need to design and build. I would expect to see VMS/Unix/Windows run onO a range of Compaq systems which had different reliability features commensurate J with their cost ( at the low end we may even see VMS running on boxes that  don't even have parity memory ).   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:18:26 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)o5 Subject: Combining lines of DCL code into one line???t3 Message-ID: <$HC0KlS3oAVD@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  F I'm trying to do some maybe not quite so simple stuff in a DCL commandL procedure. It seems in each of these two cases, I should be able to condenseK 2 or 3 lines of DCL into a single line that doesn't use temporary variablesmG to store intermediate results, but so far I've failed to figure out theSK right syntax. Anyone able to show me how to do this? I can't afford to lose- any more of my hair :-)      -   $!< $!	set default to directory that this command file is in ... $!B $ dddev	= ''f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"device")'E $ dddir	= ''f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"directory")'9 $ set default 'dddev''dddir' $!) $!	set process name to procedure name ...  $!< $ name	= f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"name")( $ set proc /name='f$extract(0, 15, name) $!  
 advTHANKSance!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:30:42 -0400s- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>o9 Subject: Re: Combining lines of DCL code into one line???e4 Message-ID: <Oa1%6.257686$Z2.3038285@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:$HC0KlS3oAVD@eisner.encompasserve.org...aH > I'm trying to do some maybe not quite so simple stuff in a DCL commandE > procedure. It seems in each of these two cases, I should be able to. condenseC > 2 or 3 lines of DCL into a single line that doesn't use temporary-	 variables$I > to store intermediate results, but so far I've failed to figure out theuH > right syntax. Anyone able to show me how to do this? I can't afford to lose > any more of my hair :-)a >n  	 Try this;e   $!< $! set default to directory that this command file is in ... $! $ set default -l5     'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"device")'-G3 'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"directory")'a $!) $! set process name to procedure name ...a $! $ set proc -I     /name='f$extract(0, 15, f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"name"))b $!   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:30 CDTa' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)s9 Subject: Re: Combining lines of DCL code into one line???i- Message-ID: <29JUN200110303115@gerg.tamu.edu>a  = kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes...oG }I'm trying to do some maybe not quite so simple stuff in a DCL commandmM }procedure. It seems in each of these two cases, I should be able to condense L }2 or 3 lines of DCL into a single line that doesn't use temporary variablesH }to store intermediate results, but so far I've failed to figure out theL }right syntax. Anyone able to show me how to do this? I can't afford to lose }any more of my hair :-)       }  }$!g= }$!	set default to directory that this command file is in ...a }$!sC }$ dddev	= ''f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"device")' F }$ dddir	= ''f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"directory")'  G Both of these lines have incorrect syntax - the two leading apostrophestD will cause translation of the symbol between them, i.e. nothing. TheJ trailing one will then cause translation of the following nothing as well.  H You can either eliminate one of the leading apostrophes, or both of them and the trailing one as well.*  E The doubling of the quotation marks inside the f$environment() is not E actually necessary - the translation of the lexical turns out to makeED that unnecessary (you can think of it like this - you are not tryingH to get a quotation mark in the output, so you don't need to double them;@ alternatively you can note that the evaluationg of f$environmentE eliminates all of it's arguments anyway). Actually, you don't need to 1 surround it with quotes and apostrophes at all...    How about this:   8 $ dddev	= f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"device"); $ dddir	= f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"directory")   C It is, maybe, possible that the ODS-5 file naming will mess this uphB if you use file names with spaces in them. In that case you'd have; to revert to quoting and apostropheing the f$environment().    }$ set default 'dddev''dddir'   " This could all be the long "line":   $ set default - 1 'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"device")'-e3 'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"directory")'   E (with some additional quoting and apostopheing of the f$environment() " in the above mentioned ODS-5 case)  > Note that this is not useful to run this command interactively> as the f$environment("procedure") is the name of your terminal device:  $ set default - 4 _$ 'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"device")'-6 _$ 'f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"directory")'
 $ show def   FTA193:[CARL]n $ dir4; %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening FTA194:[CARL]*.*;* as inputt3 -SYSTEM-F-NOTFILEDEV, device is not file structured    }$!k* }$!	set process name to procedure name ... }$! = }$ name	= f$parse("''f$environment(""procedure"")'",,,"name")a) }$ set proc /name='f$extract(0, 15, name)v }$!u  N $ set proc/name='f$extract(0,15,f$parse(f$environment("procedure"),,,"name"))'  B (Also not good to run interactively as there is no such name so itH extracts 15 characters from nothing, resulting in nothing, and complains6 that you havn't supplied the value for the qualifier.)   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:20:43 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)s4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?3 Message-ID: <qc0mSGmaDP3W@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  t In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251605080.16346-100000@world.std.com>, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes:K > The EV7 team will put the finishing touches on EV7 and it's architecturaln	 > shrink.A > C > Intel now has the EV8 team. EV8 will not be developed; Intel willa6 > incorporate Alpha technology in post-McKinley chips. >  >> ,9 >> Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess?n > ; > API NetWorks, ne API, will shuffle off its mortal coils. i  J Another interesting thought: Intel runs their FAB production lines on VMS,L and is right now converting them from VAX to Alpha. I wonder what Intel willC do in the future? Build more Alpha chips, just for their own use???    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:49:57 GMT*4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Re: Compaq ditches Alpha, what does API do?: Message-ID: <pA0%6.457$9r6.450147@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:qc0mSGmaDP3W@eisner.encompasserve.org...nL > In article <Pine.SGI.4.21.0106251605080.16346-100000@world.std.com>, Terry) C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> writes: ? > > The EV7 team will put the finishing touches on EV7 and it'sc
 architecturals > > shrink.h > >dE > > Intel now has the EV8 team. EV8 will not be developed; Intel wille8 > > incorporate Alpha technology in post-McKinley chips. > >l > >>; > >> Anyone care to guess what happens to API in this mess?0 > >:< > > API NetWorks, ne API, will shuffle off its mortal coils. >:L > Another interesting thought: Intel runs their FAB production lines on VMS,I > and is right now converting them from VAX to Alpha. I wonder what Intela willE > do in the future? Build more Alpha chips, just for their own use???p  J Much of the conversion to Alpha is done now. It's not a problem Intel willL have to worry about for years to come. Assuming that VMS is ported to IA-64,# it shouldn't be an issue for Intel.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:04:03 -0300t) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brr Subject: Compaq insanityL Message-ID: <OFB79BD3DF.DDB56395-ON03256A7A.00581967@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  G They will close ! I  cant see anything more . . . I believe we will not * see the brand name Compaq in a few years !  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/29060114.htm.   Regardsh   FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:04:40 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e+ Subject: Compaq replace AES/DSN with NT boxo8 Message-ID: <kinojtsam5jinbgg8e3spb3u6rns2v3p2d@4ax.com>  C On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:01:40 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>p wrote:      D Compaq have now confirmed to me that the replacement for DSN/AES forA people who need  facilities such as site initiated calls (auto or-? manual) and the ability for Compaq personnel to remotely accessaD systems is "eConnect". This is an NT box which will then communicateA over the Internet with Compaq on one side and your VMS box on theo other.   Only to be expected I suppose.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:12:24 -0700i1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>-% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-6423 Message-ID: <3B3BB9D8.60603C60@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>    Duane Sand wrote:  > 1 > The chances of Intel adding Vax format is zero.oI > And you don't want systems built out of special-order customized chips.lC > You want systems built from the same high-volume pool of chips asc > everyone else that year.2 > So Vax fp will need to be done by some software.  F   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionH was that data files could stay the same even though the executables wereE different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it's .E almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really be D emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofG the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going to  be emulating VAX floats on IPF?    --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/J   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:30:10 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-6403 Message-ID: <nsk4IVKbbA3z@eisner.encompasserve.org>(  g In article <3B3BB9D8.60603C60@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US> writes:k > Duane Sand wrote:  >> e2 >> The chances of Intel adding Vax format is zero.J >> And you don't want systems built out of special-order customized chips.D >> You want systems built from the same high-volume pool of chips as >> everyone else that year./3 >> So Vax fp will need to be done by some software.I > H >   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionJ > was that data files could stay the same even though the executables were > different.  F You snipped the part where Duane said the emulation would be, at firstJ blush, for "each" VAX floating point operation.  That means, for instance,   	load from memoryE 	convert from VAX D to IEEE TC 	do math 	convert from IEEE T to VAX D. 	store into memory    keeping the data files the same.  I >               Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it's -G > almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really beCF > emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofI > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going to_! > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?S  . Some people think IA64 may be faster than VAX.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:19:16 -0500S+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>S% Subject: RE: Compaq switches to IA-64SL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2014@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  H VAX FP might also be implemented in a VAX/Alpha widget hardware board of
 some type ;) i  F Depending on the cost of manufacturing such a thing you could possibly distribute it with VMS.v   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developern Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e '   e   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Duane Sand [mailto:duane.sand@mindspring.com]l  1 > The chances of Intel adding Vax format is zero.i8 > And you don't want systems built out of special-order  > customized chips. C > You want systems built from the same high-volume pool of chips asn > everyone else that year.2 > So Vax fp will need to be done by some software.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:52:56 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) % Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64l, Message-ID: <fk0Kkzzs+QJB@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <3B3C0A44.3D9436CF@videotron.ca>, r2    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   > Robert Deininger wrote:eL >> At some point (maybe already past?) a bit-perfect emulation of VAX floatsF >> in software on a fast CPU will be faster than the best VAX hardwareM >> implementation.  At that point, a customer who REALLY needs VAX floats canM> >> migrate to a new platform without taking a performance hit. > F > What types of applications would make use of vax floating point in a= > persistant (written to file or exchanged via telecom) way ?n > I    All kinds of applications could be using floating point to store data.iI I've even seen financial applications that used FP to store dollar valueseB (not something I'd recommend but nonetheless people have done it).  N > If you're exchanging data with any other system, wouldn't be either in ascii > text or IEEE format already ?  > E    I suppose you'd have to unless you were exchanging data with other:O VAX systems ( or they had special conversion routines to change it to somethingt they could use ).   M > Is it correct to state that it would be a very small number of applications N > for whom the internal bit representation of a float or double would matter ?  P    My guess is that in the grand scheme of things the number would be relativelyM small, but the ability to do so would be critical for those applications thate rely on it.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:15:37 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)% Subject: Re: Compaq switches to IA-64sL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2906011015370001@user-2ivec1l.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B3C0A44.3D9436CF@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeis% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:i   > Robert Deininger wrote: M > > At some point (maybe already past?) a bit-perfect emulation of VAX floatsoG > > in software on a fast CPU will be faster than the best VAX hardware N > > implementation.  At that point, a customer who REALLY needs VAX floats can? > > migrate to a new platform without taking a performance hit.o > F > What types of applications would make use of vax floating point in a= > persistant (written to file or exchanged via telecom) way ?   E There's already RTL support in VMS for read/write conversion of otheroF floating point formats.  See, for example, the Compaq Fortran Docs.  II assume the same facilites are available in other languages, but I haven'tr looked.    N > If you're exchanging data with any other system, wouldn't be either in ascii > text or IEEE format already ?o  H I dunno.  It seems like every week or two someone comes here looking forJ advice on binary float file conversions.  Alas, they are usually trying to: do it on a peecee, where's little or no support available.   -- m Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:47:37 +0100f/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>e1 Subject: re: Compaq switches to IA-64 (VAX float)m7 Message-ID: <009FE42A.853163B4.37@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>t  H >   That's gonna suck.  One nice thing about the VAX to Alpha transitionJ > was that data files could stay the same even though the executables wereG > different.  Now, with Itanium not supporting F, D and G floats, it's fG > almost as bad as having to switch endian-ness.  Will VAX fp really behF > emulated in software?  Compaq gave up porting Java to VAX because ofI > the horrible performance emulating IEEE on VAX.  How bad is it going toC! > be emulating VAX floats on IPF?e >  > --D > Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USM > Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/- >   5 It depends on the VAX float support in the compilers.a  L It's not going to be particularly bad. The compiler will presumably generateI in-line code. Best for efficiency, at the cost of some slight differencesoH in LSBs and behaviour with data that over- or under-flows, would be for J the compiler to generate in-line code to convert from VAX to IEEE or vice H versa only where it does a load or a store of something that it's going @ to lose sight of, and to keep all intermediate results as IEEE.   K I'd maybe hope to see a compiler option to specify whether you want precisetL bit-for-bit equivalence (slower) or merely equivalence in terms of floating-E point quantities being calculated to the canonical number of decimal vJ places, and results not necessarily numerically identical to the same code run on a real VAX or Alpha.y  H I also wonder why anyone really wants non-IEEE float, except as a way ofF accessing old files or writing new ones compatible with an old format,C or just possibly to talk to a VAX. All these are best addressed by -B converting the float data as you read or write it, and letting the! rest of the code use native IEEE.v   	Yours,a
 		Nigel Arnot:- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                      7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."b   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:16:11 +0100C% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 6 Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV78 Message-ID: <oukojt0iaiqonhb04o2se4ua52ahshm380@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:22:10 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoffn Hoffman) wrote:s   >sA >    http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliant64/index.htmla   Hmm, that page says:  D Compaq, with its partners and alliances, are committed to delivering; reliable and stable solutions as enterprise customers adopte Itanium-based technology.i   Operating Systems:   Windows 2002 (64-bit version)a  Linux 64 - Redhat, Caldera, SuSE    A No mention of Tru64 or VMS there. As far as I know W2002 is not ar= shipping product so this isn't a list of shipping OS systems.   F So once you get away from the Compaq drivel aimed at Alpha users it isA clear the generic literature for Compaq IA64 puffs up Windows andn8 Linux. Doesn't even mention Tru64 or VMS for the future.  < I thought I'd have to wait a few months before Compaq's trueC intentions became absolutely clear but here they are. Tru64 will gopE nowhere on IA64 and VMS might just make it through to release becausen4 it can't be replaced by Linux in many critical apps.   >sL >:Remember that the IA-64 project was started in 1995 and was to be ready byJ >:1997. Delay after delay has transformed Itanium into nothing more than a >:protyping chip for McKinley. > J >  My understanding of the terminology is that Itanium is the name of the K >  processor family, and not the name of a specific processor.  The Merced  I >  and McKinley projects are implementations of Itanium.  All that said, fH >  yes, it has taken a number of years to get IPF (IA-64) systems -- theL >  microprocessor, hardware, and software -- into production.  It will take J >  substational time and effort to port OpenVMS to IPF, and Microsoft has D >  been occupied porting "Windows 2002" and into production as well. >eO > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- O >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    oO > --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------aM >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.coma   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:36:35 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7: Message-ID: <Dv%_6.401$9r6.423258@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:oukojt0iaiqonhb04o2se4ua52ahshm380@4ax.com...G > On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:22:10 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff, > Hoffman) wrote:t >, > >eC > >    http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliant64/index.htmlf >  > Hmm, that page says: >IF > Compaq, with its partners and alliances, are committed to delivering= > reliable and stable solutions as enterprise customers adoptl > Itanium-based technology.  >a > Operating Systems: >n > Windows 2002 (64-bit version) " > Linux 64 - Redhat, Caldera, SuSE >d >cC > No mention of Tru64 or VMS there. As far as I know W2002 is not an? > shipping product so this isn't a list of shipping OS systems.s > H > So once you get away from the Compaq drivel aimed at Alpha users it isC > clear the generic literature for Compaq IA64 puffs up Windows and$: > Linux. Doesn't even mention Tru64 or VMS for the future. >n  D That information is from the Industry Standard Server Group, not theK Business Critical Server Group. The latter is responsible for T64, NSK, and-I OVMS. Now that the BCSG is going the IA-64 route, it'll be interesting to 0 see how Compaq plans to handle the segmentation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:49:22 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>16 Subject: RE: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2011@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  > My guess is that it doesn't (plan to handle the segmentation).  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerq Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");s '.  o   > -----Original Message-----; > From: Terry C. Shannon [mailto:terryshannon@mediaone.net]g  F > That information is from the Industry Standard Server Group, not the@ > Business Critical Server Group. The latter is responsible for  > T64, NSK, and>= > OVMS. Now that the BCSG is going the IA-64 route, it'll be a > interesting to2 > see how Compaq plans to handle the segmentation.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:48:29 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7: Message-ID: <1z0%6.456$9r6.449663@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  L Then things will get real interesting. Turf wars and all that. Note that theG ISSG will have a 32-way McKinley box by late next year. I doubt they'll B stand still as the BCSG/HSPD work on their next-generation system.  H OSes represent a logical line of demarcation. The ISSG can't handle VMS,E NSK, or Tru64. And given the less than breathtaking adoption of Win2K L Datacenter, and the ML770 flop, one wonders how the Compaq Classic folk will7 be able to contend with real enterprise systems anyhow..  8 "Christopher Smith" <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in messageF news:3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2011@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com...@ > My guess is that it doesn't (plan to handle the segmentation). > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developere   >E > > -----Original Message-----= > > From: Terry C. Shannon [mailto:terryshannon@mediaone.net]b >eH > > That information is from the Industry Standard Server Group, not theA > > Business Critical Server Group. The latter is responsible fort > > T64, NSK, and > > > OVMS. Now that the BCSG is going the IA-64 route, it'll be > > interesting to4 > > see how Compaq plans to handle the segmentation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:59:28 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e6 Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV78 Message-ID: <la5pjt0o021idr4ulgsg87oslhiji1fag2@4ax.com>  4 On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:36:35 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:    E >That information is from the Industry Standard Server Group, not the,L >Business Critical Server Group. The latter is responsible for T64, NSK, andJ >OVMS. Now that the BCSG is going the IA-64 route, it'll be interesting to1 >see how Compaq plans to handle the segmentation.   F Understood and I agree it will be interesting but I note that page has9 already been updated with the announcement that Compaq is.C consolidating on IA64 so it would have been trivial to add the news E about VMS, NSK and Tru64 to the page. Instead you can follow the linkcE where this info is available but only if you drill down far enough. I3C note your latest SKC is also linked further down.  I'll just go offG and read it.  @ I really don't know how to take this as far as VMS is concerned.@ Historical precedent is not that encouraging yet I fully believeB Capellas (and presumably Gorham) will try and make it a success. IE have asked Oracle for a formal statement that they intend to port RDBw@ and DBMS. They cannot give an answer yet. Not because the OracleD contact can't find the info but because he can and the info says "noC decision yet". CA have also given the answer "we're investigating".      -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:20:28 GMTC4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq Transfers Alpha to Intel after EV7: Message-ID: <gV1%6.488$9r6.481153@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:la5pjt0o021idr4ulgsg87oslhiji1fag2@4ax.com...6 > On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:36:35 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >s >wG > >That information is from the Industry Standard Server Group, not theiJ > >Business Critical Server Group. The latter is responsible for T64, NSK, andiL > >OVMS. Now that the BCSG is going the IA-64 route, it'll be interesting to3 > >see how Compaq plans to handle the segmentation.e >yH > Understood and I agree it will be interesting but I note that page has; > already been updated with the announcement that Compaq is E > consolidating on IA64 so it would have been trivial to add the news G > about VMS, NSK and Tru64 to the page. Instead you can follow the link G > where this info is available but only if you drill down far enough. I-E > note your latest SKC is also linked further down.  I'll just go offr > and read it.  H That information is now almost a week old. Suffice it to say that I haveL plenty of questions which remain unanswered. And I certainly am not alone in this regard.  H Near as I can tell, this whole thing started at the beginning of June. IK suspect it'll take CPQ a few weeks to answer some of the trickier technicalwB questions (e.g. OS and apps porting, Alpha content in future IA-64 processors, etc).m   >sB > I really don't know how to take this as far as VMS is concerned.B > Historical precedent is not that encouraging yet I fully believeD > Capellas (and presumably Gorham) will try and make it a success. IG > have asked Oracle for a formal statement that they intend to port RDBrB > and DBMS. They cannot give an answer yet. Not because the OracleF > contact can't find the info but because he can and the info says "noE > decision yet". CA have also given the answer "we're investigating".d  E CPQ may have a little more leverage with Oracle because of the 9i RAC K connection, but I imagine ORCL is considering the financial implications of  an Rdb port.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 00:36:21 -07009 From: martin.kevin@partner.commerzbank.com (Kevin Martin) 1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?e= Message-ID: <91d7e898.0106282336.7f8f2005@posting.google.com>V  b paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote in message news:<01K5B98ENC0I001I0D@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>...@ > >Any idea when OpenVMS will be sold to Computer Associates ;-) > P > The sheer idea of you suggesting this in our troubled times.  Will you invite ! > me to your parent's wedding :-)e >  > Regards, Paddy  E As soon as my mother finds out who my father is, we'll invite you :-)   D Seriously what's the big deal. I've been working with VMS since 1984E and I think it is the best OS by far. But the writing has been on thei? wall for years about ALPHA, It's costs a fortune to develop andnF manufacture new CPU's and you have to have volume to make money, ALPHA never had volume.-D I bailed from VMS in 1996 and took up TRU64, Looks like I'll have to be an ORACLE/LINUX geek now :-(t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 04:27:24 -0400p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?s+ Message-ID: <3B3C3BD1.27061AB@videotron.ca>    Kevin Martin wrote: A > wall for years about ALPHA, It's costs a fortune to develop and0H > manufacture new CPU's and you have to have volume to make money, ALPHA > never had volume.h  L That is an easy argument to make. Geez, I won't build a car because it costs too much to build.  K Once Alpha manufacturing was outsourced, it was argued that with the reallygM expensive part gone, Digital could focus on designing really performant chipsA$ and have them built by the best fab.  M Designing a chip requires little actual massive infrastructure investment, itcN requires manpower and some software. (which Digital probably had developped in house anyways).c  N Compaq inherited a chip that was at that time still the leader and still had aK HUGE leap ahead of what Intel was dreaming about. Compaq *could* have takenkN Alpha and made it industry standard and given NT on Compaq hardware a bid edgeM over its competitors on slower chips. Compaq would have seen the potential ofIN Alpha for teenage male computing (playing stuff like Quake etc). Heck, imagineJ if Compaq had licensed Alpha to some outfit such as Sega or Sony for their game machines.  I If you forget the accountants for a minute, how much does Intel charge toyM build an extra Alpha chip ? (i.e. remove the R&D , administrative etc costs).y  L What Compaq should have done was look at the way Airlines operate. If you'veN got a 747 with only a few business class passengers on board, you can actuallyK make more money by selling discounted tickets on coach and fill the rest ofbL the plane because the plane has certain fixed costs and the incremental cost1 of carrying each coach passenger is fairly small.-  J I am convinced that had Digital or Compaq wanted Alpha to have been a huge5 success, they could have acheived this fairly easily.a   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:32:42 -07009 From: martin.kevin@partner.commerzbank.com (Kevin Martin)C1 Subject: Re: Compaq's Alpha design team for sale?r= Message-ID: <91d7e898.0106290432.471376bd@posting.google.com>   ` JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3B3C3BD1.27061AB@videotron.ca>... > Kevin Martin wrote:XC > > wall for years about ALPHA, It's costs a fortune to develop and J > > manufacture new CPU's and you have to have volume to make money, ALPHA > > never had volume.t > N > That is an easy argument to make. Geez, I won't build a car because it costs > too much to build. > M > Once Alpha manufacturing was outsourced, it was argued that with the reallynO > expensive part gone, Digital could focus on designing really performant chipsI& > and have them built by the best fab. > O > Designing a chip requires little actual massive infrastructure investment, itaP > requires manpower and some software. (which Digital probably had developped in > house anyways).l > P > Compaq inherited a chip that was at that time still the leader and still had aM > HUGE leap ahead of what Intel was dreaming about. Compaq *could* have takenrP > Alpha and made it industry standard and given NT on Compaq hardware a bid edgeO > over its competitors on slower chips. Compaq would have seen the potential ofeP > Alpha for teenage male computing (playing stuff like Quake etc). Heck, imagineL > if Compaq had licensed Alpha to some outfit such as Sega or Sony for their > game machines. > K > If you forget the accountants for a minute, how much does Intel charge totO > build an extra Alpha chip ? (i.e. remove the R&D , administrative etc costs).p > N > What Compaq should have done was look at the way Airlines operate. If you'veP > got a 747 with only a few business class passengers on board, you can actuallyM > make more money by selling discounted tickets on coach and fill the rest ofgN > the plane because the plane has certain fixed costs and the incremental cost3 > of carrying each coach passenger is fairly small.n > L > I am convinced that had Digital or Compaq wanted Alpha to have been a huge7 > success, they could have acheived this fairly easily.s  B I worked as a contractor/consultant to digital/compaq for about 12E years. There was no way in hell that compaq or digital management wasr? going to make a success of it. I've never understood any of the,D business decisions they made. They have consistantly pissed away any commercial advantage.e@ They have take the best hardware/os/software products and made aE bollocks of it every time. Shame really coz I've invested a lot of my  time in their products.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:11:44 +0100c8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> Subject: RE: DECnet over IP?N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFE6@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  C > I want to demonstrate to someone that DECnet Phase V task to taskl9 > communication "over IP" works as well as DECnet IV did.   E To use DECnet over IP all you have to do is specify the node name as:f     DOMAIN:name.of.host.in.dns::   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:20:42 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)1' Subject: DETARing OpenOffice on OpenVMS@3 Message-ID: <8w89w35RiR9j@eisner.encompasserve.org>I  = Has anyone been able to get a current tarball for OpenOffice,a& (AKA STAROFFICE) to unpack on OpenVMS?  = GZIP unziped the file with out errors, but the VMSTAR version @ I was using failed with an error saying it found corruption in a a directory in the TAR archive.q  : If you have, can you let me know what versions of OpenVMS, GZIP and VMSTAR that you used?  @ Or does someone have it in a more OpenVMS friendly format that I can grab with FTP?   -John( wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:19:31 -0700  From: deltauh@yahoo.com (daniel)@ Subject: Found Great OpenVMS Security Software, System Detective= Message-ID: <e6e1751e.0106290719.690b9218@posting.google.com>i  F PointSecure (www.pointsecure.com) in Houston offers all kinds of toolsF for OpenVMS. I think one product was once sold by someone else but hasD been recently acquired by pontsecure. From the information I got, itE appears they really are focused on developing and supporting securityt@ tools for OpenVMS. This is the email they sent me. I went to theC website and thought it was pretty interesting. Has anyone ever usedn System Detective?     ) Reply-to: <mike.umansky@pointsecure.com> rE From: "Mike Umansky" <mike.umansky@pointsecure.com> | Block Address |  Add to Address Book  To: <deltauh@yahoo.com>  Subject: System Detective & Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:15:21 -0500        i     Danny-   A I enjoyed speaking with you today.  Attached is the information IuD promised you regarding our  System Detective AO and System DetectiveB IS products for OpenVMS.  As I mentioned, System Detective AO is a> rules based security solution and System Detective IS provides@ interactive monitoring.  Both are established products that haveC helped ensure the integrity of OpenVMS systems in many Fortune 1000-! companies over the past 10 years.   -D PointSecure, Inc. is a Compaq Solutions Partner.  We provide leadingF security solutions for OpenVMS.  In addition to our security solutions@ we also offer audit tools and interactive help desk software for OpenVMS.  OB The System Detective AO and IS products add an additional layer ofD security on top of what is built into the OpenVMS operating system. 6 Both products are extremely flexible and customizable.  :E The bottom line, System Detective AO/IS allows the System or Security9A Administrator to ensure that existing security policies are beingn	 enforced.n  sF The following is a brief description of our current OpenVMS solutions:  2 System Detective AO:  - Rules based policy enforcement  o System Detective IS:  - Interactive session monitoring  u PointAudit:r - Analyzes SYSUAF.lis    
 ChalkTalk:$ - Interactive help desk and training   C PointSecure, Inc. is dedicated to the OpenVMS platform.  Because ofuC this, we are able to focus all of our efforts on creating value fora( those running OpenVMS whenever possible.  4@ I will call you in a few days.  In the meantime, if you have anyE questions please do not hesitate to give me a call.  Thanks again andi) I look forward to speaking with you soon.        Thanks & Regards,c Mike   ========================== Michael Umanskyu PointSecure, Inc.  7026 Old Katy Road, Suite 305a Houston, Texas 77024 (p) +1 713 868 1222n (f)  +1 713 862 7666 (c) +1 832 722 9004. mike.umansky@pointsecure.com www.pointsecure.coma ==========================   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:48:09 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.comD Subject: Re: Found Great OpenVMS Security Software, System DetectiveH Message-ID: <OF1AF4C7D2.2C11073A-ON80256A7A.0056A2E9@qedi.quintiles.com>  G I saw a demo of the product in London at the InfoSec exhibition.  I wascC very impressed, but with changes since the show I will be unable toFD implement it or investigate implementation for my present employers.   Steve.   Danny wrote: >>>lF PointSecure (www.pointsecure.com) in Houston offers all kinds of toolsF for OpenVMS. I think one product was once sold by someone else but hasD been recently acquired by pontsecure. From the information I got, itE appears they really are focused on developing and supporting securityf@ tools for OpenVMS. This is the email they sent me. I went to theC website and thought it was pretty interesting. Has anyone ever usedN System Detective?o <<<t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:00:13 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>.) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 8 Message-ID: <i3dojtoppgtuekm30rgmejj43ovstv0rkj@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:30:29 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:s   >Alan Greig wrote:E >> Initially how about a simple console boot CD? Just stick the CD innG >> your  IA64 system and boot the VMS console. No need to fiddle aroundyI >> with new boot ROMS or learn how to use native hardware BIOS support at  >> least initially.i >s >BUZZ ! No ! >pK >Think about autoboot capability after a power failure (or a system crash).67 >What happens if the CD isn't mounted in the drive ????   F You only need the CD for the initial install. The PC BIOS (or whateverB the IA64 has) can load the VMS console from disk where it would beD placed during a VMS installation. The VMS console then takes over asF usual. And remember I am talking about an initial get you going scheme here.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:21:13 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.@8 Message-ID: <1heojt417fsqv4sad6f1gkia2r1gu98ogq@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:28:58 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e   >Alan Greig wrote:G >> What if there are 1 million plus IA64 systems with a DECUS hobby VMS ) >> license on them four years from today?p >sG >Do these generate stabel support revenus ? NO. Would Compaq care ? No.r  A Do the millions of illegal copies of Windows generate revenue? Doe, Microsoft care? Well they pretend they do...  N >If IA64 becomes commodity enough that there are 1 million PCs running VMS, itD >means that Compaq will barely be making any profit on the hardware.  C But if 1 million hobby licenses generate a few tens of thousands ofo$ commercial sales and growing then... -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:40:02 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)l) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.o0 Message-ID: <009FE3EE.C9FE9F3B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  R In article <9hgb60$4dm$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: {...snip...}L >They're full mostly because  a) those systems are now 15 or more years old,L >components have died, and replacing them would be *really* cost-ineffectiveD >and  b) most of today's software requires rather more in the way ofM >processor and memory resources than were available on systems made back then F >(not to mention using instructions that weren't available back then).  $ Bingo.  There was no architecture.       --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            hO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:59 CDTf' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)i) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. - Message-ID: <29JUN200105591581@gerg.tamu.edu>a  1 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes...h }Alan Greig wrote:E }> Initially how about a simple console boot CD? Just stick the CD in G }> your  IA64 system and boot the VMS console. No need to fiddle around"I }> with new boot ROMS or learn how to use native hardware BIOS support atf }> least initially.F }  }BUZZ ! No ! } K }Think about autoboot capability after a power failure (or a system crash).T7 }What happens if the CD isn't mounted in the drive ????p  C If the CD wasn't in the drive, then you obviously didn't want it toe	 autoboot.S   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:59:06 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium. 3 Message-ID: <kSQA779Ga6YL@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  ` In article <zxBLxECW9Hy8@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes: > M >     My assertion is that if Windows on Alpha had been a success we wouldn'to > today be arguing about this. >   D OK, so Alpha has not been the success DEC originally pipe dreamed itC would be.  If you were Compaq what would you do about it in face of ? IA-64 catching up with Alpha by the time you could get EV8 out?a  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationg= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupfE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:02 CDTm' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.c- Message-ID: <29JUN200107023603@gerg.tamu.edu>y  + "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes...lK }Note that IA64 isn't a commodity item either:  in fact it is not yet *any*aL }kind of an item (save for a units supplied to people so that they can startI }developing things on it) - and shows little sign of becoming much of anyiE }kind of an item until McKinley ships, since Itanic/Merced is so, er,e
 }uninspiring.  }  }- billa  @ This isn't correct. You can actually buy an Itanium based system= from a variety of places, probably including Dell (there is ao? system on their Workstations page) and definately including HP.n  B They are not any less expensive than a DS10 with VMS. On the otherA hand, they will handily outperform a DS10 on floating point stuffs? and may outperform it on integer stuff, if you're lucky, mostlyd0 because they have much higher memory throughput.   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:23:45 -0700/ From: yelmalio@sartar.fsnet.co.uk (Dave Barlow)a) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.e< Message-ID: <8380e4f.0106290423.138c7c41@posting.google.com>  d alanb@cloud9.net (Alan B.) wrote in message news:<88599d89.0106260433.b78e49c@posting.google.com>...  G > ** What do I tell my boss now about my plan for migrating our old VAXiH > apps to Alpha, as opposed to a PC OS as has happened to other apps? HeF > was quite receptive and told me to go ahead. Now that Alpha's futureD > (and what would be required to move to Itanium) is uncertain, thisC > puts quite a damper on things. ** I feel somewhat screwed by CPQ!e  > Having just read this I know what you mean. After 18 months ofD haggling we eventually convinced management to at least try and portE VAX code to Alphas. If they catch wind that Alpha is now being phased = out they are very likely to port to Solaris or AIX, being theo= corporate standards. Alternatively they will speed up findinge' replacements for the in-house VMS apps.    Dave Barlowl   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:59:59 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.i: Message-ID: <PJ0%6.460$9r6.453676@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message' news:29JUN200107023603@gerg.tamu.edu...y- > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes...tG > }Note that IA64 isn't a commodity item either:  in fact it is not yeto *any*wH > }kind of an item (save for a units supplied to people so that they can starttK > }developing things on it) - and shows little sign of becoming much of anyhG > }kind of an item until McKinley ships, since Itanic/Merced is so, er,n > }uninspiring.y > }d	 > }- bille >TB > This isn't correct. You can actually buy an Itanium based system? > from a variety of places, probably including Dell (there is aeA > system on their Workstations page) and definately including HP.   H Intel claims they've shipped 30K Itanium systems to developers and earlyL adopters. I saw my first Blazer (ProLiant IA-64 4-way box) a year and a half3 ago, that product is supposed to ship next quarter.D  L Presumably a number of the Blazers will be shipped to ZK03 in New Hampshire. ;-}r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:02:28 GMTg4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>) Subject: Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.h: Message-ID: <8M0%6.461$9r6.454527@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:kSQA779Ga6YL@eisner.encompasserve.org...iH > In article <zxBLxECW9Hy8@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:y > > F > >     My assertion is that if Windows on Alpha had been a success we wouldn't  > > today be arguing about this. > >t >CF > OK, so Alpha has not been the success DEC originally pipe dreamed itE > would be.  If you were Compaq what would you do about it in face ofoA > IA-64 catching up with Alpha by the time you could get EV8 out?a >.  K Probably something on the order of what Compaq actually did do. It could betJ argued that the announcement of a VMS, Tru64, and NSK port to IA-64 ratherH than a complete architectural transition would have made more sense, butJ such an announcement may well have imposed a sales freeze on Alpha systems anyhow.p   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:41:00 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)n- Subject: Re: Golden Opportunity for Microsoftl+ Message-ID: <9hhlvs$ost$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>q  R In article <9hfqkv$kp6$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >sG >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message  > L >To assert that the porting expenditure if it actually materializes reflectsM >any change in this situation is ridiculous:  if Compaq had felt that growingrK >VMS in this manner was important, it would have initiated it (and a lot of F >other growth-oriented activity) long ago, rather than as an emergencyH >bandage to try to keep dropping Alpha from affecting its *existing* VMSM >revenue.  For that matter, it would have made sense to start it earlier eveneL >given the decision to scuttle Alpha, which gives credence to the suggestionK >(I forget from whom) that the reason the port wasn't announced earlier waseD >because until recently scuttling VMS along with Alpha was the plan. >h >- billw >l  7 The trouble is I don't think there was any plan at all.h  E Just look at the flip flops Compaq has done on porting NSK and TRU64.m  " NSK is going to be ported to IA64.# No its going to be ported to Alpha.hJ Yes Its going to be ported to IA64 and too make sure we're killing Alpha.     $ TRU64 is going to be ported to IA64. No its not. J Yes Its going to be ported to IA64 and too make sure we're killing Alpha.   L I think Compaq has been at war with itself over Alpha and IA64 ever since itH bought Digital. The sad fact is that the Wintel PC faction (most of whom? probably came from the original Compaq) have finally triumphed. F Unfortunately it is much easier to destroy than it is to create. HenceJ when the Wintel faction gained supremecy this time they decided to make an irreversible decision.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:48 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e- Subject: Re: Golden Opportunity for MicrosoftM- Message-ID: <29JUN200107480446@gerg.tamu.edu>u  " david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes...8 }The trouble is I don't think there was any plan at all. } F }Just look at the flip flops Compaq has done on porting NSK and TRU64. } # }NSK is going to be ported to IA64.s$ }No its going to be ported to Alpha.K }Yes Its going to be ported to IA64 and too make sure we're killing Alpha. . }  } % }TRU64 is going to be ported to IA64.l }No its not.K }Yes Its going to be ported to IA64 and too make sure we're killing Alpha. K } M }I think Compaq has been at war with itself over Alpha and IA64 ever since it2I }bought Digital. The sad fact is that the Wintel PC faction (most of whom2@ }probably came from the original Compaq) have finally triumphed.G }Unfortunately it is much easier to destroy than it is to create. HencecK }when the Wintel faction gained supremecy this time they decided to make ani }irreversible decision.  }  }David Webb?  
 My suspicion:t  F The only reason that the Alpha group won that middle round was becauseG the topmost decision makers noticed that IA64 was not out and would notqH be out for some time. Not that it is out, the Intel faction has regained the upper hand.e  G In the meantime, somebody finally noticed how much money VMS brings in. E Therefore it has been added to the "port to IA64" category instead of  the "drop it" category.-   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:30:54 GMTF' From: mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark)t# Subject: How to lock a kernel mutex1/ Message-ID: <3b3c66a3.12483490@news.force9.net>c   Hi,w  B How can you lock a mutex for a kernel object in OpenVMS AXP 7.2-1?D I need to access the global section table.  I would be very grateful, if anyone could supply some C code examples.   TIA  Mark   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:48:38 GMTl= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)e' Subject: Re: How to lock a kernel mutexn0 Message-ID: <009FE409.22D9FDB9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Y In article <3b3c66a3.12483490@news.force9.net>, mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark) writes:m >Hi, > C >How can you lock a mutex for a kernel object in OpenVMS AXP 7.2-1?SE >I need to access the global section table.  I would be very grateful - >if anyone could supply some C code examples.   E SCH$LOCK{R/W}{_QUAD} has always done the trick for me.  If you intendiF to use C, you'll want the call based routines SCH_STD$LOCK{R/W}{_QUAD}+ and don't forget the SCH_STD$UNLOCK{_QUAD}.s   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:43:04 +0200a* From: Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 Rocks My World/ Message-ID: <3B3C85E8.7040700@brussels.sgi.com>n   Brannon Batson wrote:o  l > bengtl.net@telia.nospam.com (Bengt Larsson) wrote in message news:<3b3b4181.30126558@enews.newsguy.com>... > D >>In comp.arch, Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote: >> >>S >>>Casper.Dik@Holland.Sun.Com (Casper H.S. Dik - Network Security Engineer) writes:e >>>SB >>>>Engineers shouldn't blame everything on marketing; Digital has< >>>>made serious mistakes when it came to building hardware. >>>> >>>Such as?n >>>o" >>- Not building large enough SMPs >> >  > EV7o >  > 5 >>- Not focusing on memory performance (esp. latency)o >> >  > EV7u > B He wasn't talking about processors, but actual machines. The GS320  = is currently the largest SMP available, and you can't say itspA memory subsystem has very low latency and is cheap to build (esp.  above 8 CPUs).  D And I know enough customers with EV6 processors in 8200/8400 chassis; to know that throughput on memory-intensive applications isiD hardly exemplary. Note: not that I don't say EV6 shouldn't have been: offered to those for which it is useful (some applications/ don't care zilch for memory bandwidth/latency).    But it was pushed as a= viable EV6 platforms to a lot of users for which the platform1; really let down the CPUs (before the ES40 came out, and foriA people who liked larger SMPs for quite some time after that). And=9 EV6 was even offered as the miracle cure for that chassis ? *before* it was out, to compete against competing machines thatc< delivered as much delivered performance as that chassis with< EV5, sometimes with not an ounce of technical argumentation.  G Now I'm sure Compaq customers would love to see that changed for futuret EV7 chassis ;).y   -- s) Alexis Cousein				Senior Systems Engineerb. SGI Belgium and Luxemburg		al@brussels.sgi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:23:26 +1000c/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>i$ Subject: Re: Inform comedy continues. Message-ID: <w1W_6.249$mO.8586@ozemail.com.au>  0 I just got my Inform Asia Pacific May 2001 today! page 11 - alphaservers in Hungaryl  page 12 - alphaservers in FranceG page 16 - alphaservers (106 of them) for Samsung manufacturing in Koreaw3 page 19 - alphaservers to iBank (wherever they are)t" page 23 - alphaservers in ThailandL between pages 50&51 a 12 page "extreme business" section entirely devoted to alphas (also featuring NYSE VMS & RTR)@K it also quotes an IDC reports that alphas are "gaining ground on the marketo leader"0& then page 52 - 55 is the alpha section5 page 58 - 60 the "biotech" section (alphas at Celera)d- then alphaservers in Los Alamos (375 of them)i/ page 63 Chicago's 911 service (based on alphas)tE page 64 (how appropriate) the tru-64 unix section starts - all alphast+ page 68 - manufacturing (alphas at Hyundai)aF page 70 - 75 the VMS section (including how to swap from vax to alpha)E page 82 - 85 the telecom section (alphas in Ireland, France and Southu Africa)s& page 92 - finance (alphas in Tel Aviv), page 93 - energy (alphas in Norther Ireland)E then page 94 - 98 is the services section (isn't that what compaq areh getting into?)  B obviously the Inform editors worldwide are unreconstructed deccies8 (we will probably get the Canadian edition next quarter)  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B3C0950.4FD154AF@videotron.ca...7 > I think they should rename the magasine "MAD" :-) :-)l >GG > Inform Magasine, Canadian edition (Summer 2001) received today in thee mail.D >1? > Alphaserver mentioned in 2 colums in the first compaq advert.  >2: > Page 8 features article about Compaq-Microsoft alliance. >  >a
 > page 12:K > AlphaServer systems power world class research (Autralian partnership for : > advanced Computing) who ordered 450 AlphaServer systems. >a >sI > Page 54 has a 2 page article about AlphaServer TS for telecom industry.iJ > (only tyru64 is mentioned in the supported OS on that page, but there is an > interesting text:AD > "...TS40 systems combine Compaq's powerful industry-standard Alpha
 technology% > with (telephony software products)"o > G > Interesting use of "industry standard". Perhaps a last attempt by thef alphanI > group to convince Compaq that Alpha could be an industry stanard had it- not- > been squandered :-(  > I > Page 56 lists some of the "fastest CPU" benchmarks acheived bty the 833X mhzl: > Alpha, as well as design awards for alphaserver systems. >EB > Page 57 contains an ad for Oeek&Spy, a third party VMS software. >tH > Page 59 mentions the $7 million contract with the Qubec govermmeht to supplyL > Alphaserver systems that shoudl regroup a lot of the government's IT needs .dL > (Trucluster and Tru64, Oracle and will serve up to 66,000 govt employees). >wG > Then  announcement of a deal with Entrust (the proprietary encryptionh company,G > once used by a canadian bank) that will port its software to Tru64 onh Alpha. >aA > There is also some bragging about how many SAP systems based on- Alphaservers+ > and Tru64 Compaq has sold. (over 10,000).X >(I > Page 62 has article about Life Sciences revolution and how AlphaServersd aren2 > deployed in large numbers at Sanger, Celera etc. >-J > Interesting sentence: "The joint R&D agreeement will use future versions ofJ > AlphaServer supercomputer systems. The Goal is to create a new prototype byB > 2004". (this is part of a project to have a 100 TeraOPS system). > / > Sanger Centre in europe has 590 Alphaservers.l >oE > "The leader in market revenue for the technical systems and servers  market,lE > Compaq has won almost every major supercomputing contract since the 	 beginningw > of 2000."o >aK > The above sentence makes it hard to explain why Compaq would so suddentlyi drop > Alpha :-)i >e >r >sF > Page 66 has article on how Compaq has 65% of the world's electricity > distribution computing. L > "Utilities that installed applications on the OpenVMS operating systems 20K > years ago have been able to scale through VAX and the AlphaServer productn2 > families without re-engineering their software". >o > 2 paragraphs later:sL > "Most Compaq-base utility projects installed over the past 5 years utilize> > Compaq AlphaServer servers running the Coimpaq Tru64 Unix... >eI > Article about hydro Qubec. Only mentions AlphaServers and how they aree able( > to keep costs down. No mention of VMS. >KC > There is a 2 page article about VMS being used for an agricultureo applicationoH > in england. Again, Alphaserver's advantages are touted. Interestingly, again ab: > mention of how easy it was to migrate from VAX to Alpha. >-H > There is also an artocle about how a Winnpieg Health Care organisation choseoK > Alphaservers and OpenVMS. One of the advantages touted was the ability ofr theiG > wildfires to run different operatin systems so they can run differentp$ > applications on the same "system". > 
 > E*TRADE: >2K > There is a 2 page article about ETRADE. Most about the PCs featured it isoL > "public store" in NYC, but a brief mention of all the AlphaServers used to rund. > its enterprise computing. No mention of VMS. >  >' > J > I find it quite interesting that the Canadian edition would have shipped thisH > edition at such a wrong time, and I find it most interesting that this editionhL > seems to be the first one to feature Alpha so prominently and showcase its > successes so much. > I > Obviously, the canadian editor was unaware that Compaq would be killingl Alphaa  J Maybe they were told to use up all their alpha copy now rather than saving it!  Phil.t   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 14:39:31 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) Subject: Re: Inform comedy...., Message-ID: <9hi3v3$e1v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  \ In article <3B3C0950.4FD154AF@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:6 >I think they should rename the magasine "MAD" :-) :-)  L I think "misINFORM" is closer - it's a horrible pun but completely accurate.   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech 1J **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:03:46 -0400o+ From: John Eisenschmidt <jeisensc@aaas.org>  Subject: Re: Inform comedy....# Message-ID: <sb3c60a5.070@aaas.org>   L Yeah, I got it last week. Someone should have yelled "stop the presses" on =	 that one.   F >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 06/29/2001 12:51:42 AM >>>5 I think they should rename the magasine "MAD" :-) :-)s  G Inform Magasine, Canadian edition (Summer 2001) received today in the =e mail.o  @ Alphaserver mentioned in 2 colums in the first compaq advert.=20  8 Page 8 features article about Compaq-Microsoft alliance.     page 12:I AlphaServer systems power world class research (Autralian partnership for:8 advanced Computing) who ordered 450 AlphaServer systems.    G Page 54 has a 2 page article about AlphaServer TS for telecom industry.6J (only tyru64 is mentioned in the supported OS on that page, but there is = an interesting text:NE 	"...TS40 systems combine Compaq's powerful industry-standard Alpha =t
 technology# with (telephony software products)"e  G Interesting use of "industry standard". Perhaps a last attempt by the =s alphaeI group to convince Compaq that Alpha could be an industry stanard had it =w nott been squandered :-(u  I Page 56 lists some of the "fastest CPU" benchmarks acheived bty the 833 =o mhzn8 Alpha, as well as design awards for alphaserver systems.  @ Page 57 contains an ad for Oeek&Spy, a third party VMS software.  J Page 59 mentions the $7 million contract with the Qu=E9bec govermmeht to = supplyL Alphaserver systems that shoudl regroup a lot of the government's IT needs = .sJ (Trucluster and Tru64, Oracle and will serve up to 66,000 govt employees).  G Then  announcement of a deal with Entrust (the proprietary encryption =t company,G once used by a canadian bank) that will port its software to Tru64 on =. Alpha.  L There is also some bragging about how many SAP systems based on Alphaserver= sr) and Tru64 Compaq has sold. (over 10,000).   I Page 62 has article about Life Sciences revolution and how AlphaServers =@ areo0 deployed in large numbers at Sanger, Celera etc.  J Interesting sentence: "The joint R&D agreeement will use future versions = ofJ AlphaServer supercomputer systems. The Goal is to create a new prototype = by@ 2004". (this is part of a project to have a 100 TeraOPS system).  - Sanger Centre in europe has 590 Alphaservers.a  E "The leader in market revenue for the technical systems and servers =s market,gE Compaq has won almost every major supercomputing contract since the =d	 beginningi of 2000."=20  K The above sentence makes it hard to explain why Compaq would so suddently =y drop	 Alpha :-)       D Page 66 has article on how Compaq has 65% of the world's electricity distribution computing.=20J "Utilities that installed applications on the OpenVMS operating systems 20I years ago have been able to scale through VAX and the AlphaServer producte0 families without re-engineering their software".   2 paragraphs later: J "Most Compaq-base utility projects installed over the past 5 years utilize< Compaq AlphaServer servers running the Coimpaq Tru64 Unix...  K Article about hydro Qu=E9bec. Only mentions AlphaServers and how they are =, able& to keep costs down. No mention of VMS.  C There is a 2 page article about VMS being used for an agriculture =g applicationsH in england. Again, Alphaserver's advantages are touted. Interestingly, = again a 8 mention of how easy it was to migrate from VAX to Alpha.  H There is also an artocle about how a Winnpieg Health Care organisation = choseoK Alphaservers and OpenVMS. One of the advantages touted was the ability of =b theeE wildfires to run different operatin systems so they can run differentn" applications on the same "system".   E*TRADE:  I There is a 2 page article about ETRADE. Most about the PCs featured it isrL "public store" in NYC, but a brief mention of all the AlphaServers used to = runo, its enterprise computing. No mention of VMS.      J I find it quite interesting that the Canadian edition would have shipped = thisH edition at such a wrong time, and I find it most interesting that this = editionpJ seems to be the first one to feature Alpha so prominently and showcase its successes so much.=20   I Obviously, the canadian editor was unaware that Compaq would be killing =  Alpha.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:05:19 GMTt' From: mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark)p- Subject: Internals and Data Structures Manuale/ Message-ID: <3b3c60a9.10953410@news.force9.net>t   Hi,   F Is the "Internals and Data Structures Manual" for AXP V7.2-1 available; online?  I do not have this manual and need to refer to it.t   TIAh Mark   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:31:35 -0300p) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brr1 Subject: Re: Internals and Data Structures ManualaL Message-ID: <OFEDE7FF12.F78054F6-ON03256A7A.003F2298@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ? You should wait  the Itanium Internals and Data Structures.....   J I hope Digital Press to launch new books in this transition of processors.  G Should be fine to remarket the OpenVMS, for example, to give this bookso  free at the Universities etc ...  H I remember DEC used to give those pocket books with a lot of information- about their technologies. This should be backN   Fabion        8 mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark) em 29/06/2001 08:05:19  3 Favor responder a mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark)              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt      - Assunto: Internals and Data Structures Manuala     Hi,e  F Is the "Internals and Data Structures Manual" for AXP V7.2-1 available; online?  I do not have this manual and need to refer to it.    TIA  Mark   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:22:02 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)t1 Subject: Re: Internals and Data Structures Manualf0 Message-ID: <009FE3F4.A810AB28@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Y In article <3b3c60a9.10953410@news.force9.net>, mark@*NO*SPAM*techop.co.uk (Mark) writes:t >Hi, >aG >Is the "Internals and Data Structures Manual" for AXP V7.2-1 availablei< >online?  I do not have this manual and need to refer to it.  G No. ...and thanks to the events of this past Monday, it looks like RuthnF is off the hook for supplying the rest fo the addendums to the manual.G I was really looking forward to at least the updated 64 bit memory mgt.h
 addendum.  :(e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             aO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.D   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:46:09 +0100f% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>? Subject: Re: iVMSt8 Message-ID: <6ufojtk448md8vjcu9apurpf4ii9asmeai@4ax.com>  @ On 28 Jun 2001 12:07:06 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   >In article <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFE3@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes:I >> I found a mention of iVMS at the following URL and have extracted some3M >> detail below. I wonder if this iVMS will prevent Compaq calling the portedwK >> VMS "iVMS" as it's also being used in a computing context unlike VAX thea' >> computer and VAX the vacuum cleaner.b >eE >Has there been the slightest hint that anyone at Compaq would _want_K >to use the name "iVMS" ?e  F Read the post subject: "An engineer's perspective..." from Hoff ending with the following paragraph:}  ; " like Alpha.  I've been through three other major platformp transitions D   already (PDP11, VAX, Alpha), and I expect I'll see others...  I am nowyC   starting to learn IA-64/IPF/EPIC, and (here's part of the fun :-)  I'm >   going to get to work directly on and work with "iVMS" before	 y'all..."a  A Seems like a perfectly reasonable development name if not a final 
 product name.g   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:24 CDTg' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)r Subject: Re: iVMS:- Message-ID: <29JUN200105242788@gerg.tamu.edu>>  - fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes...u }I forgot  a name: } ( }VMS ===>  TruIQ  (Intel / CompaQ) ! ! ! } * }But in portuguese it sounds like  "trick" }Forget .... }  }Regards }  }FCr  > For a truely gruesome suggestion: V-nix. As in one past U-nix.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 05:17 CDTe' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)  Subject: Re: iVMSo- Message-ID: <29JUN200105174318@gerg.tamu.edu>   5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...e }Larry Kilgallen wrote:t }> e }> In article <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEFE3@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes:K }> > I found a mention of iVMS at the following URL and have extracted somerO }> > detail below. I wonder if this iVMS will prevent Compaq calling the porteddM }> > VMS "iVMS" as it's also being used in a computing context unlike VAX the ) }> > computer and VAX the vacuum cleaner.a }> tG }> Has there been the slightest hint that anyone at Compaq would _want_u }> to use the name "iVMS" ?  } F }iPAQ is not sufficient precedent? (...as opposed to aPAQ, if an Alpha" }product could be made that small) }  }--  }David J. Dachtera  F Not really. iPAQ is hardware, or at least a hardware+software package, but VMS is software.  K The equivalent would be to change from AlphaServer/AlphaStation DS10 (etc.)  to iServer/iStation DS10 (etc).o   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:35:19 +0100g% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s Subject: Re: iVMS	8 Message-ID: <iqpojt0jf819ikj0drng1i6ul8oo3ollm9@4ax.com>  B On 29 Jun 2001 05:17 CDT, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:   >1G >Not really. iPAQ is hardware, or at least a hardware+software package,: >but VMS is software.i >sL >The equivalent would be to change from AlphaServer/AlphaStation DS10 (etc.)  >to iServer/iStation DS10 (etc).  C In the Compaq/Intel webcast the CEO, Craig Barrett, of Intel joked:lD "There is no truth in the rumour that the iPAQ has an Itanium in it. At least not yet anyway."e   > 	 >--- Carl    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:07:44 -0400c  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>+ Subject: Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?t6 Message-ID: <1010629014823.61768C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ' On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Ted Allwood wrote:e  ? > Is anyone using an LCD flat panel monitor in conjunction withaE > a VMS workstation?  I'd appreciate any information on makes/models 1E > of monitor that are compatible, plus setup hints (nowt in the FAQ).  > B > Specifically, I have an Alpha 255/233 with ZLXP-L1 graphics cardC > running VMS 6.2-1H3 and Open3D 3.6.  A conventional monitor takesl > up too much space.   >  > 
 > Regards, > Tedr  F My office mate has a flat panel display on his AlphaStation 200 4/100.  > He's on vacation, so I can't ask him what it is, but the label= on the bottom says it is an Acer model FP855.  It looks to benB about 18 inches diagonal.  Works fine.  I think any VGA-compatible? flat screen would work.  I think the graphics card is a Digital = S3 TRIO64 card.  He's running DEC Unix V3.2, if that matters.e   -- 0 John Santosv Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  / Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:22:02 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>+ Subject: Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?e6 Message-ID: <200106290622.IAA02055@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Helloc   Ted Allwood wrotes:   ? > Is anyone using an LCD flat panel monitor in conjunction withsE > a VMS workstation?  I'd appreciate any information on makes/models aE > of monitor that are compatible, plus setup hints (nowt in the FAQ).n  E Yes, we use an Compaq 7010TFT monitor on  a VAXStation 4000 Model 90.u It works without any problem.e  B > Specifically, I have an Alpha 255/233 with ZLXP-L1 graphics cardC > running VMS 6.2-1H3 and Open3D 3.6.  A conventional monitor takese > up too much space.    8 If you have same TFT monitor (e.g. a PC near by) try it.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:41:50 -0700 1 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>a+ Subject: Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?a3 Message-ID: <3B3BC0BE.6D9F2519@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>5   Ted Allwood wrote: > ? > Is anyone using an LCD flat panel monitor in conjunction withiD > a VMS workstation?  I'd appreciate any information on makes/modelsE > of monitor that are compatible, plus setup hints (nowt in the FAQ).u > B > Specifically, I have an Alpha 255/233 with ZLXP-L1 graphics cardC > running VMS 6.2-1H3 and Open3D 3.6.  A conventional monitor takesy > up too much space.  A   At my previous job I setup two workstations, both DEC 3000/400s @ with LCD montitors from NEC.  They used BNC RGB video cables andA supported sync-on-green.  One had an 18" and the other was a dual0= monitor setup with an 18" and a 20".  The model numbers were a? LCD1810X and LCD2010 I think.  They both ran at 1280x1024x60Hz.,8 NEC has a 21" monitor now that has 1600x1200 resolution.   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/j   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:24:51 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: LCD Screen on VMS Workstation?t1 Message-ID: <nZ1%6.294$rc5.7654@news.cpqcorp.net>i  b In article <009FE376.389F2825.10@leva.leeds.ac.uk>, Ted Allwood <support@leva.leeds.ac.uk> writes:> :Is anyone using an LCD flat panel monitor in conjunction withD :a VMS workstation?  I'd appreciate any information on makes/models D :of monitor that are compatible, plus setup hints (nowt in the FAQ).  F   Please explain what in the OpenVMS FAQ section "SUPP5.  Which video D   monitor works with which graphics controller?" is insufficient forC   answering your question, and I will elaborate on it and will also E   update the FAQ.  Various combinations have been found to work just aE   fine, and the OpenVMS FAQ explains how to determine if (and how) a yB   particular combination will work.  That said, I am not really inD   a position to list which combinations actually work -- and at whatC   resolutions -- as that would be rather more than I have room for,   A :Specifically, I have an Alpha 255/233 with ZLXP-L1 graphics card B :running VMS 6.2-1H3 and Open3D 3.6.  A conventional monitor takes :up too much space.  a  .   AFAIK, ZLXp-L1 runs 1280 by 1024 at 72 Hz.  4   Both software revisions referenced are rather old.
           N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 01 09:01:41 EDT! From: smithp01@mcrc16.med.nyu.edud% Subject: Re: looking for old DEC gear - Message-ID: <7fF72XIKDPMO@mcrc16.med.nyu.edu>t  L I think I have a VAX 3400 I can let go.  Worked fine when last switched off.  J Anyone interested?  You have to be prepared to pay shipping.  Trashing it  seems too sad....a  I In article <3B39167C.3F9795F1@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes:a" > gleason@encompasserve.org wrote: >> gG >>   Time for my periodic message about old hardware I'm looking for...3 >> GB >>   Anyone got any PDT/11-110's or PDT-11/130s, or any PRO seriesK >> ethernet adapters (DECNAs)? Willing to pay a fair piece o' change to adde >> them to my collection.o >> ,F >>   Also could use a couple of MicroVAX 2000's, if there are any that! >> haven't been thrown out yet...  > G > I have a MicroVax 2000, without disk or tape, that should have a good  > cpu if you+ > can find an RD54 and a TK50Z tape for it.s > Make me an offer...v >  > (Located in Idaho) >  -- *L +------------ 8F EF 51 4E 4F 23 22 AF  6A 41 D6 C0 AE 31 B1 82 ------------+L |Ross Smith, Academic Computing (RCR), NYU-SoM, 550 First Ave, NY, NY 10016|L |E-Mail:  SMITHP01@MED.NYU.EDU   Phone:  (212)263-5356:  FAX: (212)263-8139|L +-------------- <http://www.med.nyu.edu/people/P.Smith.html> --------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:24:02 -05007+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>eC Subject: RE: Origin of iVMS? (was Re: Full port of VMS to Itanium.)ML Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2015@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  : > > Christopher Smith, in a discussion about dropping the  > _OPEN_ in OpenVMS, > > on June 7, 2001 said:8  > > > > iVMS?  (I do have a VAXStation 2000 at home attached to  > an LSI ADM-52 > > > terminal with a sign that says "iVAX" on it)  9 > IIRC, Chris used that line well before the Deja/Google m > debacle. He just- > repeated himself in that post on that date.o   Well... I _was_ joking. :)   Regards,   Chriso    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developern Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");( 'e   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 13:19:20 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)u Subject: Porting quandry3 Message-ID: <mx1$NMf1w7R2@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  = Perhaps someone can shed some light on this question, becausec? I can't quite wrap my melon around this one.  CPQ sez that theya> want to port everything to the same 64 bit chip, so that they @ only have one hardware platform to support.  OK, that makes someA sense.  It's the porting to IA64 that doesn't seem to make sense.y  > Didn't they already have all the OSs they use on Alpha, or at  least close?  Let us recap...   A NT    - had it, but dropped it.  If rumor is true, Alpha is still @         the development platform of choice for the MicroSerfs.  A         I place the blame on this faux-pas squarely on the pointy.B         head of the infant terrible, cry-baby billionaire, Gates, %         or his winged monkey minions.p VMS   - long since done)
 Tru64 - dittoa% NSK   - waiting for the lockstep chipn@ Linux - I have Redhat on a DS10, who knows about the other *nixs  1 So now they want to embark on the port to IA64.  D  7 NT    - don't know if it's ready yet.  See rumor above.e VMS   - 18 monthsT5 Tru64 - Started to.  Stopped.  Restarting.  One year?s. NSK   - waiting for lockstep IA64?  2003-2005?# Linux - I don't know anything here.9  ? So it seems to me that they pretty much _had_ all the OSs they  @ want to sell on a 64 bit "standard" platform.  Not only that but? the Alpha has been in production for almost 10 years.  Can IA64 & be considered production ready, yet?     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:30:22 -0700 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>e Subject: RE: Porting quandry9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEDFCOAA.tom@kednos.com>o  G It is true, but what they didn't say was that they couldn't sustain thegH ongoing develpoment required to keep alpha competitive, and owing to its design,.D it probably could never have been competitive with PPC, for example.     > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Marty Kuhrt [mailto:kuhrt@encompasserve.org]& > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 11:19 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh > Subject: Porting quandry >o > ? > Perhaps someone can shed some light on this question, becauseeA > I can't quite wrap my melon around this one.  CPQ sez that theyp? > want to port everything to the same 64 bit chip, so that theytB > only have one hardware platform to support.  OK, that makes someC > sense.  It's the porting to IA64 that doesn't seem to make sense.  >h? > Didn't they already have all the OSs they use on Alpha, or aty > least close?  Let us recap...f >eC > NT    - had it, but dropped it.  If rumor is true, Alpha is stilla@ >         the development platform of choice for the MicroSerfs.C >         I place the blame on this faux-pas squarely on the pointyiC >         head of the infant terrible, cry-baby billionaire, Gates,m' >         or his winged monkey minions.i > VMS   - long since donee > Tru64 - ditto ' > NSK   - waiting for the lockstep chipcB > Linux - I have Redhat on a DS10, who knows about the other *nixs >e1 > So now they want to embark on the port to IA64.n > 9 > NT    - don't know if it's ready yet.  See rumor above.c > VMS   - 18 monthsa7 > Tru64 - Started to.  Stopped.  Restarting.  One year?-0 > NSK   - waiting for lockstep IA64?  2003-2005?% > Linux - I don't know anything here.c >k@ > So it seems to me that they pretty much _had_ all the OSs theyB > want to sell on a 64 bit "standard" platform.  Not only that butA > the Alpha has been in production for almost 10 years.  Can IA64d& > be considered production ready, yet? >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:10:50 -070001 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>r6 Subject: Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...)3 Message-ID: <3B3BC78A.346699DE@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US>0   Duane Sand wrote:s  m  A > Intel's marketing machine goes into hyperdrive, helping us too..     The Blue Man Group on speed?   --B Vance Haemmerle               Internet   vance@toyvax.Tucson.AZ.USK Tucson, AZ                    Web        http://toyvax.Tucson.AZ.US/~vance/c   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:17:28 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l6 Subject: Re: Porting VMS (was Itanium, non-issue, ...)3 Message-ID: <pC17fJBuxWZA@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  q In article <2TI_6.137820$%i7.92199956@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com> writes:n  > > I don't know VMS at all, but have been involved in 3 (now 4)? > porting efforts for NSK.  Seems likely that VMS can be portedeB > onto any stock version of any little-endian processor capable of< > also running Unixes, at some performance-compromise level. >   H Not quite.  While many processors support the 4 modes VMS requires, UNIX7 requires only 2, and some processors still have only 2..  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationt= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouphE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:31:02 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Proposal, cheap iVMS early look3 Message-ID: <eelvPhLLt0ga@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <WFP_6.15772$P5.5148062@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:   > M > Actually, Tru64 is a little ahead of OpenVMS -- expect developer's kits for-M > Tru64 at the end of 2002; for OpenVMS, the beginning of 2003.  (Think of iti( > like OpenVMS Alpha v1.0/1.5, I guess.) >   G These developer's kits.  What will they run on.  Right now we're seeing0I numbers just under $2K for the IA-64 chips and hearing about server classi systems.  E Compaq will need many systems for it's porting groups to work on.  ItiF would be to thier advantage if they could adopt one of thier minitowerD PC's to IA-64 (maybe isolate the CPU to a daughter board in the nextF design update).  This might mean putting a $2K chip into a $1K PC, but look at cost they save.e  F The $2K daughter board and the beta test CD for VMS could then be madeH available as a unsupported package as an alternative or in parallel with the traditional field test kit.S  D Lots of folks would get to look at "iVMS" early on and lots of third7 parties could get an early start on porting their apps.I  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationt= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 12:14:36 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: QIO parity error ? * Message-ID: <3b3c550c$1@news.kapsch.co.at>   Just got this OPCOM messages:j  < %DFG-F-MOVFILQIOERR, QIO error on movefile for volume _DKB0:   and_   -SYSTEM-F-PARITY, parity error   Must be a disk error, right ?V  C Is my data now corrupted somewhere (AN/DI didn't complain so far) ?s   TIA"   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888-< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 06:06:14 -0700' From: doran167w@aol.com (Doran Werling)e Subject: Re: QIO parity error ?D= Message-ID: <75749e0a.0106290506.7476725a@posting.google.com>M  \ eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) wrote in message news:<3b3c550c$1@news.kapsch.co.at>... > Just got this OPCOM messages:r > > > %DFG-F-MOVFILQIOERR, QIO error on movefile for volume _DKB0: >  > ande >   > -SYSTEM-F-PARITY, parity error >  > Must be a disk error, right ?A > E > Is my data now corrupted somewhere (AN/DI didn't complain so far) ?  >  > TIAs    P It looks like the Defragger was trying to write a file to bad block on the disk.  For starters, I would do this .., - check the system error log for disk errorsN - check the defragmenter log for any additional information, like the name of $   the file that it had trouble with./ - consider running ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR on DKB0.d   Regards,
 Doran Werlingv RW/SCS Inc.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:48:32 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Rdb troll8 Message-ID: <v3gojt8aflgrn2oug9853ledcnerglenlr@4ax.com>  2 On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:11:53 -0400, norm lastovica$ <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> wrote:   >p the NT port convenient. >:3 >	you've got to be joking.  an excuse was certainlyh3 >not what oracle was looking for, I can assure you.s  E I am absolutely sure that the Oracle RDB group was not looking for aneE excuse to drop it but that's different from Oracle corporate. Just ashD I'm sure the Alpha team was not looking for an excuse to drop Alpha.   >> --h >> Alans   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:29:39 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)0 Subject: Re: Rdb troll, Message-ID: <KKAZ2ugB+yYn@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  9 In article <v3gojt8aflgrn2oug9853ledcnerglenlr@4ax.com>, 8*    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >>4 >>	you've got to be joking.  an excuse was certainly4 >>not what oracle was looking for, I can assure you. > G > I am absolutely sure that the Oracle RDB group was not looking for anpG > excuse to drop it but that's different from Oracle corporate. Just asaF > I'm sure the Alpha team was not looking for an excuse to drop Alpha. >   B    The Rdb development group sent an email out ( presumably to all< Rdb customers ) this morning talking about the announcement.  D    It was very carefully worded to commit to nothing. It talks aboutA how the Rdb group was not aware of the plans until Monday morning8D (this seems to contrast with the "Oracle Classic" folks being toutedC at the announcement as being "excited" about Tru64 on IPF - do theydD "excite" quickly or did they have some prior information?). They key% statement in the message seems to be:r  F "In the three years between today and the time that OpenVMS on ItaniumH is scheduled to ship, both Oracle and our customers will have ample timeE to work with the new versions of the operating system, the compilers,sC the middleware and the development tools.  In consultation with ourlE customers, we will carefully evaluate which development strategy willc" offer them the greatest benefit."   <   Perhaps they're concerned they won't get access to a Bliss compiler for IPF?l  G    I suppose one couldn't expect anything more given that the Rdb folks F were as surprised as any of us - but the way it reads it leaves OracleD open to conclude that leaving Rdb as VAX/Alpha only is the "greatestB benefit" to their customers. Hopefully it will be followed up ASAP, with a more definite statement of direction.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:16:47 +0200 (CET)- From: gazso@csirke.elte.hu2 Subject: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider+ Message-ID: <01062915164744@csirke.elte.hu>r  a In article <9hebaa$k3u@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: I > A horrible trend popped into my mind this evening.  Here it is for yourM > unenjoyment: > C > 1.  Rather than compete with Oracle in databases, sell RDB to it.pL > 2.  Rather than compete with Quantum in storage, sell the disk business to it.5C > 3.  Rather than compete with Intel in CPUs, sell the Alpha to it.6 >  > and the sickening conclusion:p > A > 4.  Rather than compete with Microsoft in OS's, sell VMS to it.   " (and the sickening one for Compaq:K   5. Rather than competing with anyone, sell all products and go bankcrupt)   F I think it is time for the big customers to try to save VMS, promisingK Compaq migration in this case to OS390, OS/400, AIX, Solaris, BSD, or Linux1< and trading no more with Compaq at all. What about the idea?    Gaspar-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:04:22 -0500n5 From: "Hipenbecker, Doug" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM>.6 Subject: RE: Re; One more dreadful thought to considerG Message-ID: <DD11CB6FEB21D41184510004ACA3715304C906D0@mbsus228.mbc.com>f  I Oracle purchased RDB from Digital in 1995.  It's official name is "Oracle2J RDB".  Oracle has done an outstanding job at managing the database and itsB customers considering that it has a 900-lb gorilla bigger brother.   Doug Hipenbecker Miller Brewing Co.   -----Original Message-----8 From: gazso@csirke.elte.hu [mailto:gazso@csirke.elte.hu]# Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:17 AMu To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 2 Subject: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider    J In article <9hebaa$k3u@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:I > A horrible trend popped into my mind this evening.  Here it is for your  > unenjoyment: > C > 1.  Rather than compete with Oracle in databases, sell RDB to it.sL > 2.  Rather than compete with Quantum in storage, sell the disk business to it. C > 3.  Rather than compete with Intel in CPUs, sell the Alpha to it.w >  > and the sickening conclusion:a > A > 4.  Rather than compete with Microsoft in OS's, sell VMS to it.h  " (and the sickening one for Compaq:K   5. Rather than competing with anyone, sell all products and go bankcrupt)s  F I think it is time for the big customers to try to save VMS, promisingK Compaq migration in this case to OS390, OS/400, AIX, Solaris, BSD, or Linux-< and trading no more with Compaq at all. What about the idea?    Gaspar    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:10:10 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n6 Subject: Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider8 Message-ID: <1f6pjt81f9r32tgrq0pql7ou57k4qashp5@4ax.com>  7 On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:04:22 -0500, "Hipenbecker, Doug"0" <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> wrote:  J >Oracle purchased RDB from Digital in 1995.  It's official name is "OracleK >RDB".  Oracle has done an outstanding job at managing the database and itseC >customers considering that it has a 900-lb gorilla bigger brother.o  ? Are you talking from a technical point or a price point. From a9E technical point they haven't done too badly. Pricewise they screw then
 customer.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:07:40 GMT.4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider: Message-ID: <gJ1%6.486$9r6.477439@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:1f6pjt81f9r32tgrq0pql7ou57k4qashp5@4ax.com...9 > On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:04:22 -0500, "Hipenbecker, Doug" $ > <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> wrote: > L > >Oracle purchased RDB from Digital in 1995.  It's official name is "OracleI > >RDB".  Oracle has done an outstanding job at managing the database andA its E > >customers considering that it has a 900-lb gorilla bigger brother.R >NA > Are you talking from a technical point or a price point. From aUG > technical point they haven't done too badly. Pricewise they screw thew > customer./  K There is that;-}. But hey, realize that a MiG burns a lot of JP-4, so Larry E needs to charge high prices to as to keep his Russian toy in the air.s  J Of course, this does NOT explain CA's pricing. To the best of my knowledge! the CEO of CA does not own a MiG.9   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 12:55:13 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)a6 Subject: Re: Re; One more dreadful thought to consider* Message-ID: <9hibth$8jr$1@lisa.gemair.com>  : In article <gJ1%6.486$9r6.477439@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:m >l3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message 3 >news:1f6pjt81f9r32tgrq0pql7ou57k4qashp5@4ax.com...l: >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:04:22 -0500, "Hipenbecker, Doug"% >> <Hipenbecker.Doug@MBCO.COM> wrote:, >>M >> >Oracle purchased RDB from Digital in 1995.  It's official name is "OraclebJ >> >RDB".  Oracle has done an outstanding job at managing the database and >itsF >> >customers considering that it has a 900-lb gorilla bigger brother. >>B >> Are you talking from a technical point or a price point. From aH >> technical point they haven't done too badly. Pricewise they screw the >> customer. > L >There is that;-}. But hey, realize that a MiG burns a lot of JP-4, so LarryF >needs to charge high prices to as to keep his Russian toy in the air. >eK >Of course, this does NOT explain CA's pricing. To the best of my knowledge " >the CEO of CA does not own a MiG. >e >t  B No, but Charles Wang, CEO of CA,  is buying up a small village on C Long Island's North Shore.  See the front page of Wednesday's Wall p Street Journal.   C Nobody knows why he's buying it and he was doing it in secret untilr? someone discovered who was behind the company buying up all theu properties.p   -Jordan Hendersono jordan@greenapple.comc   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:46:11 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o2 Subject: Re: Sending command to programs with pipe0 Message-ID: <009FE3EF.A60E0FBE@SendSpamHere.ORG>  l In article <fmP_6.15568$P5.5129592@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:/ >While on that topic, I've tried the following:e >sL > $ Pipe echo "This is the body text." | mail sys$input aaron /subj="testing >pipe" > M >This works great from the command line, but fails from a .com file (and yes,o; >I've tried it with Sys$Pipe, too.)  Instead, I have to do:  > I > $ Pipe echo "This is the body text." > temp.file ; mail temp.file aaronn) >/subj="Testing pipe" ; delete temp.file.- >-L >Has anyone got a better way of accomplishing this?  Why does it fail within# >a .com file but not interactively?g  # Assuming 'echo' is WRITE SYS$OUTPUT@  O $ PIPE ECHO "This is the body text." | MAIL SYS$PIPE AARON /subj="testing pipe"    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:18:47 GMTr. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>2 Subject: Re: Sending command to programs with pipe; Message-ID: <Hm__6.16964$P5.5617939@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>   H Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:009FE3EF.A60E0FBE@SendSpamHere.ORG...H > In article <fmP_6.15568$P5.5129592@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman"% <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:A1 > >While on that topic, I've tried the following:t > >l? > > $ Pipe echo "This is the body text." | mail sys$input aaron  /subj="testing > >pipe" > > J > >This works great from the command line, but fails from a .com file (and yes,= > >I've tried it with Sys$Pipe, too.)  Instead, I have to do:h :l% > Assuming 'echo' is WRITE SYS$OUTPUTi >iK > $ PIPE ECHO "This is the body text." | MAIL SYS$PIPE AARON /subj="testing  pipe"h  > Yuh, tried that, Brian.  No joy.  Good assumption on the echo.  H Ack, just tried it on my home system and it worked just fine.  Must be a; problem with Pipe on 7.1, because it works on 7.2.  Okay...a   Aarona --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/= "Are you a nerd?  How many syllables are in the word 'coax'?"k   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:40:44 GMTi& From: "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com>$ Subject: Symposium: CETS-2001 Hotels8 Message-ID: <gH__6.2405$1m4.441728@typhoon1.gnilink.net>  L Assuming that about 5000 people will attend CETS this year we reserved aboutL 3000 hotel rooms. This is normal ratio because of locals and people who makeL their own hotel reservations. For some reason, yet unknown to us, the hotelsJ are going at a fast rate. The very low cost hotel rooms are about gone. AtG the current pace the reserved rooms will be gone by the end of July. OftG course there will be rooms available at that point, there are plenty ofpL rooms in Anaheim. However, the additional rooms will not be available at theF convention rate. If you are super sensitive to the hotel costs I would suggest you register early.-  J There were some cases of the advertised hotel rates and rates not matchingL during the registration process.  That is being fixed and registrations that$ were processed are being reviewed...   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 11:08:39 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)t( Subject: Re: Symposium: CETS-2001 Hotels3 Message-ID: <7EAYt78NH6ro@eisner.encompasserve.org>S  a In article <gH__6.2405$1m4.441728@typhoon1.gnilink.net>, "Jeff Killeen" <Jeff@IDM-IO.com> writes:aN > Assuming that about 5000 people will attend CETS this year we reserved aboutN > 3000 hotel rooms. This is normal ratio because of locals and people who makeN > their own hotel reservations. For some reason, yet unknown to us, the hotelsL > are going at a fast rate. The very low cost hotel rooms are about gone. AtI > the current pace the reserved rooms will be gone by the end of July. OftI > course there will be rooms available at that point, there are plenty ofhN > rooms in Anaheim. However, the additional rooms will not be available at theH > convention rate. If you are super sensitive to the hotel costs I would > suggest you register early.  > L > There were some cases of the advertised hotel rates and rates not matchingN > during the registration process.  That is being fixed and registrations that& > were processed are being reviewed...    L Taking your advice, I had our travel folks call the hotel of my choice. THeyL said that we had to go through Maritz, the folks who screwed up all my stuffI last year. I called Maritz, and they said I had to do it myself online. InI tried to do it online, going to the "Review/Change My Hotel Reservations"s* button. I get the following error message:   "Error Encountered p    w- An unexpected error occured on page "receipt"e; The name of the exception is java.lang.NullPointerExceptiono                                             e3                                                    o; An error occurred while attempting to process your request.b  ( You may wish to use the back button and 3 try the action again or return to the login page. "t  J So my travel department can't book me a room, Hilton won't book me a room,K Maritz won't book me a room, and the online registration is broken. I guessnI my last option is to sleep in the street with the Disneyland panhandlers.-C                                                                     I Looks like the CETS-2001 process learned NOTHING from CETS-2000. Or maybee went backwards.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:16:38 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>n0 Subject: RE: Thanks Compaq for the new business!L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2013@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  - Ahh yes, the reactionary business decision...D  G Well, I feel sorry for your firm having to make the conversion, but theE8 companies that want to convert deserve what they'll get.  G On the other hand, you might want to try to convince them to go another K (_any_ other) direction, if you have any concern for their business.  MaybeeC convince them to go with a more capable O/S, like a ROM-based BASICH interpreter.  J I generally have little tolerance for stupidity, and converting _anything_0 to windows is the stupidest move one could make.  J As for the effect on VMS, you can't please everyone, and compaq especiallyL is so inept at pleasing their customers that I'd expect most of them to takeK this the wrong way for lack of information.  If you're sure that VMS is thewL best solution for these people, ask them why they want to stay away from it.K Their worries will either be perfectly valid (but perhaps reconcilable), or: not.   Regards,   Chris-  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '   l   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: jlahman1@aol.com [mailto:jlahman1@aol.com]  9 > The announcements made by Compaq regarding VMS was the d > biggest bone-headed move= > in the history of computing.  Due to this accouncement, we   > just got an orderd? > from a large automobile company to convert their VMS systems   > to windows 2K.    ? > And, I've been talking to a large steel mill that has been a , > VMS shop for many < > years.  They are now seriously considering a migration to  > windows 2K from VMS. g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:53:05 -07004! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>c0 Subject: RE: Thanks Compaq for the new business!9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMECMCOAA.tom@kednos.com>   =  Well, since we have been titilated, what kind of applicationl,  is it, and in which language is it written?   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com]% > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 7:17 AMn > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.2 > Subject: RE: Thanks Compaq for the new business! >- >-/ > Ahh yes, the reactionary business decision...  >hI > Well, I feel sorry for your firm having to make the conversion, but theD: > companies that want to convert deserve what they'll get. >2I > On the other hand, you might want to try to convince them to go another:< > (_any_ other) direction, if you have any concern for their > business.  MaybeE > convince them to go with a more capable O/S, like a ROM-based BASICc > interpreter. >tL > I generally have little tolerance for stupidity, and converting _anything_2 > to windows is the stupidest move one could make. > L > As for the effect on VMS, you can't please everyone, and compaq especiallyA > is so inept at pleasing their customers that I'd expect most oft > them to takeB > this the wrong way for lack of information.  If you're sure that > VMS is the@ > best solution for these people, ask them why they want to stay > away from it.s; > Their worries will either be perfectly valid (but perhapsc > reconcilable), ore > not. >u
 > Regards, >t > Chrisc >"# > Christopher Smith, Perl Developeri > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >m > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");p > '  >I >i > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: jlahman1@aol.com [mailto:jlahman1@aol.com] >h: > > The announcements made by Compaq regarding VMS was the > > biggest bone-headed move> > > in the history of computing.  Due to this accouncement, we > > just got an ordere@ > > from a large automobile company to convert their VMS systems > > to windows 2K. > @ > > And, I've been talking to a large steel mill that has been a > > VMS shop for manya= > > years.  They are now seriously considering a migration toy > > windows 2K from VMS. >    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 11:43:05 -05001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam>f0 Subject: Re: Thanks Compaq for the new business!2 Message-ID: <w53y9qb2q5i.fsf@pitcairn.spa.umn.edu>  # jlahman1@aol.com (Jlahman1) writes::  Q > The announcements made by Compaq regarding VMS was the biggest bone-headed movetN > in the history of computing.  Due to this accouncement, we just got an orderO > from a large automobile company to convert their VMS systems to windows 2K.    > P > And, I've been talking to a large steel mill that has been a VMS shop for manyQ > years.  They are now seriously considering a migration to windows 2K from VMS. . >  > Q > This only means business for us since we've already made the migration from VMSr > to windows NT/2K.t  B Anyone who makes such decisions right now on the basis of Monday'sF announcement is surely an idiot. If Alpha systems running Tru64 or VMSH were working well last week, they will this week too. There is plenty ofD time over the next year or so to see what Compaq's true direction isE going to be. In the meantime any Alpha systems I buy now are going tohB provide perfectly good service for their normal expected lifespan.   G. -- hI --------------------------------------------------------------------------, Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - (612) 624-50409 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of Minnesota I -------------------------------------------------------------------------6   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:19:18 -0400B% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>a: Subject: Re: The death of VMS has been greatly exaggerated/ Message-ID: <tjp72vkid095b6@news.supernews.com>r  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hdrua$353$1@pyrite.mv.net... >-2 > "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message+ > news:tjk1j99u64spe1@news.supernews.com... B > > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message* > > news:MFVbm5gV2I4b@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...5 > > > In article <tji3n47ge8e60b@news.supernews.com>,b1 > > >     "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:e > > > >pG > > > > 32 bit processors are a dead end for general purpose computing.  > > >aG > > >     Which problem in particular do you see 32bit processors beingrB > > > inadequate for? Will those problems need to be solved by the& > > > average desktop system customer? > > >s > >lK > > It's not that all (or even many) problems need more than 32 bits.  It'sa > thatI > > most computers are used to do more than one thing.  A 32 bit chip canm only > > address 4GB of RAM.g >tJ > Tell that to Intel and its Xeons (32-bit machines supporting up to 64 GB ofJ > RAM).  It's like telling people a 16-bit PDP-11 could only address 64 KB of  > RAM (IIRC 4 MB was the limit). >-  F The Xeon uses 36 bits for addressing memory.  It's a half assed 36 bit1 processor.  But, you already know that don't you?    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:53:50 GMT:1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au>s Subject: The future of VMS8 Message-ID: <yT__6.535$DJ4.78809@nostril.pacific.net.au>  E 	IMHO, the best thing/solution would be if VMS would be spun off into C 	a separate, independent company, into the hands of people who careRC 	about it amd maintain it. ( Eventually, in the long term, probably ' 	this is what will happen, hopefully ).aE 	Revenue wouldn't be a problem, and a contract with one or more Alphai; 	chip makers could be made. A grass-roots movement, maybe ?n" 	Well, just my thoughts, really...  D 	( On another note, with hindsight, we can now understand the suddenE 	aboutface of those bastards, Gartners, regarding VMS. They might gotm$ 	wind of Compaq's plans earlier... ) 							Csaba  I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog2E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush. I    ----------------------------------------------------------------------u;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:19:10 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>0 Subject: Re: The future of VMS' Message-ID: <3B3C8E5E.F21D2A55@fsi.net>t   CSABA HARANGOZO wrote: > [snip]M >         ( On another note, with hindsight, we can now understand the sudden N >         aboutface of those bastards, Gartners, regarding VMS. They might got- >         wind of Compaq's plans earlier... )u  @ I was told that this was the result of Gartner having high-levelF meetings with Compaq in this regard. The info came from within Compaq.   -- - David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.4   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:56:29 GMTD4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: The future of VMS: Message-ID: <xG0%6.459$9r6.452481@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3B3C8E5E.F21D2A55@fsi.net...  > CSABA HARANGOZO wrote:
 > > [snip]H > >         ( On another note, with hindsight, we can now understand the suddenL > >         aboutface of those bastards, Gartners, regarding VMS. They might gotT/ > >         wind of Compaq's plans earlier... )s >lB > I was told that this was the result of Gartner having high-levelH > meetings with Compaq in this regard. The info came from within Compaq. >   I Is this with respect to the Gartner write-up on VMS that appeared in CNEToL some months back? Gartner just did a somewhat similar writeup on Tru64 UNIX.    E The irony of the situation is that Gartner in 1994 proposed the Risky E Windows Affinity Scheme to Digital (the firm I worked for at the time K proposed a VMS port to Intel). And we all know what happened to Affinity...p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 04:36:11 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r/ Subject: Timing of the alpha-death announcement,, Message-ID: <3B3C3DDF.144A3370@videotron.ca>  R I finally realised why Compaq made that sudden announcement of the death of alpha.  F It was actually done as an emergency measure to stop the environmentalJ discussions in this newsgroup. Compaq knew full well that the announcementL would instantly steer the diccussions towards Compaq's policies and kill the) environmental threads :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)d   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 04:41:04 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i3 Subject: Re: Timing of the alpha-death announcemente( Message-ID: <9hheoc$k5q$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B3C3DDF.144A3370@videotron.ca...J > I finally realised why Compaq made that sudden announcement of the death	 of alpha.H >TH > It was actually done as an emergency measure to stop the environmentalL > discussions in this newsgroup. Compaq knew full well that the announcementJ > would instantly steer the diccussions towards Compaq's policies and kill thea+ > environmental threads :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)-   Go to bed, JF.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:23:18 +0100R. From: Trevor Blake <see.below@signature.block>- Subject: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phonee/ Message-ID: <3B3C5716.BE9E7CF2@signature.block>e   Hi  E I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g. D sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn. > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to' assimilate the information until now.   E I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what softwarei. and hardware people are using / is available.   H More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asE I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to doE SMS Text Messaging ?   I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.|        E IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knows. what its doing.    -- e Regards,  Trevor Blake  H You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . @ .1  A Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spoken tF               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:16:27 -0400a( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone + Message-ID: <3B3C638B.77C0DF2C@bigfoot.com>   ? A lot of text messaging services (in the U.S anyway) have email4E addresses to which you can send messages to pagers.  This way (if younH have IP configured properly on your VMS box) you can just send the alert@ directly from VMS via email, and the pager will get it.  This isF probably the simplest and easiest way to do it.  Just be aware though,A that if you have a network failure, you won't get notified.  Your F network should be monitored externally anyway by a seperate mechanism.   HM  e Trevor Blake wrote:h >  > Hi > G > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.tE > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.e@ > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to' > assimilate the information until now.nG > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what softwaree/ > and hardware people are using / is available.g > J > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asG > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to doR > SMS Text Messaging ? > ! > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.r > G > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knowst > what its doing.J >  > -- > Regards,  Trevor Blake > J > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . > @ .s > B > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenH >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:29:30 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phoneeL Message-ID: <OF2A2FA239.93F84BF3-ON03256A7A.003EFEC4@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  K Just to explain here: I have a team  mate which developed a WAP applicationoK to control the Microsoft Clusters remotely. He use to solve the problems aty home. G Would be fine to create an application for OpenVMS clusters.... but alli' my servers are not clusterized... :-(((h     Regardsi   FC        9 Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> em 29/06/2001 08:16:27a  4 Favor responder a Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd      1 Assunto: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phoneu    ? A lot of text messaging services (in the U.S anyway) have emailnE addresses to which you can send messages to pagers.  This way (if youeH have IP configured properly on your VMS box) you can just send the alert@ directly from VMS via email, and the pager will get it.  This isF probably the simplest and easiest way to do it.  Just be aware though,A that if you have a network failure, you won't get notified.  Your F network should be monitored externally anyway by a seperate mechanism.   HM   Trevor Blake wrote:s >h > Hi >tG > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.rE > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.i@ > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to' > assimilate the information until now. G > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what software / > and hardware people are using / is available.t >CJ > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asG > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to do0 > SMS Text Messaging ? > ! > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.T >kG > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knows1 > what its doing.1 >i > -- > Regards,  Trevor Blake >aJ > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . > @ .v >iB > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenH >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:54:14 +0100 . From: 'o-Dzin Tridral <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk>1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phonee- Message-ID: <3B3C7A78.28994.872625@localhost>c  " Here aare a couple, no guarantees!   http://www.argus.myth.co.uk/ http://www.watchmyserver.com/o   I found these vian   http://www.freecomms.co.uk/    I hope these may be of use  
 best regards,c  	 '=F6-Dzinm  3 From:           	Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>I9 Subject:        	Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phonep0 Date sent:      	Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:16:27 -0400K Organization:   	Independent VMS and UNIX Systems Manager and Programmer f=  or Hire 
 	(consultant)-3 Send reply to:  	Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>p& To:             	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  A > A lot of text messaging services (in the U.S anyway) have email G > addresses to which you can send messages to pagers.  This way (if you.D > have IP configured properly on your VMS box) you can just send theH > alert directly from VMS via email, and the pager will get it.  This isH > probably the simplest and easiest way to do it.  Just be aware though,C > that if you have a network failure, you won't get notified.  YourtH > network should be monitored externally anyway by a seperate mechanism. >  > HM >  > Trevor Blake wrote:i > >  > > Hi > > D > > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine,F > > e.g. sending a message to a pager when something stops working ...H > > yawn. I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed toF > > assimilate the information until now. I'd appreciate some feedbackD > > on how to set this up, and what software and hardware people are > > using / is available.- > > B > > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobileE > > phone, as I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software existT& > > for VMS to do SMS Text Messaging ? > > # > > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.i > > C > > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaqi > > knows what its doing.h > >  > > -- > > Regards,  Trevor Blake > > G > > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z Xe > > by . @ . > > D > > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenE > >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in yourn > >               eyes     -- 'o-Dzin TridralcE Senior Computer Officer, UIS, Cardiff University, PO Box 78, CF10 3XLs' T +44 29 2087 6160  E TridralO@cf.ac.uke) F +44 29 2087 4531  W http://www.cf.ac.ukd   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:07:59 GMTp. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone ; Message-ID: <zc__6.16962$P5.5611957@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>e   Trevor,t  9 There's a free 30 day download of PagerPlus available at:y  0  http://www.networkingdynamics.com/pagerpls2.htm  K It looks very robust, but I'm not at all familiar with how it would work insG your environment.  For the do-it-yourselfer, there are some scripts fort CKermit available for paging.n  K For WAP stuff, you'll need to install one of the web servers on OpenVMS and[K code your own set of pages.  There's already quite a bit of sample code outVL there for system admin tasks (I believe Arne's got some posted on his site),+ but they would have to be modified for WAP.r   Hope this helps, Aaronm --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/= "Are you a nerd?  How many syllables are in the word 'coax'?"n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:46:12 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>:1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phone.8 Message-ID: <l5qojtoocm37jm1l06qi4b63ugs2okqrut@4ax.com>  0 On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:23:18 +0100, Trevor Blake" <see.below@signature.block> wrote:   >Hi  >hF >I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.E >sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn. s? >I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed tor( >assimilate the information until now.  F >I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what software/ >and hardware people are using / is available. a >gI >More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, as F >I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to do >SMS Text Messaging ?   E Yes. CKermit. The Ckermit distribution contains sample kermit scriptsdF to communicate with pagers or SMS phones using the TAPI (think that;'sE the name) protocol. I have successfully used these on VMS to send SMSr; messages to phones from an application monitoring power andh temperature.  ( Here's the header of the script you need   ; File APAGE.KSC
 ; Version 4.0r ;r= if < \v(version) 700000 end 1 C-Kermit 7.0 or later required.-  @ ; TAP/IXO alphanumeric paging script for Kermit 95 and C-Kermit.D ; Authors: F. da Cruz and C. Gianone, Columbia University, September 1996.n ;t2 ; For use with C-Kermit 7.0 / K95 1.1.17 or later.@ ; For a detailed explanation, consult "Using C-Kermit", 2nd Ed., pp.454-456.u    >I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.   So am I.   >p >cF >IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knows >what its doing.  $ That would make a refreshing change! -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 06:30:38 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)t1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phonec= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0106290530.1000e140@posting.google.com>   e Trevor Blake <see.below@signature.block> wrote in message news:<3B3C5716.BE9E7CF2@signature.block>...o > Hi > G > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.pF > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn. @ > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to) > assimilate the information until now.   G > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what software 0 > and hardware people are using / is available.  > J > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asG > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to do  > SMS Text Messaging ? > ! > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.u > 0 Most (some) pager services offer an smtp gateway0 so if you have ucx or tcpip or "the other stack"> just enable smtp and email to <yourpagernumber>@<pagerservice>? if you only have a dialup connection then the collective widsoma3 is to use c-kermit as it is free (you pay for doco)-* and it has build-in scripts for doing this Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 13:35:14 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)f1 Subject: Re: VMS Messaging to Pager, Mobile phoneb0 Message-ID: <9hi06i$p3g$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   >Trevor Blake wrote:G > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g. E > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.v@ > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to' > assimilate the information until now.tG > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what software / > and hardware people are using / is available.u > J > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asG > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to do- > SMS Text Messaging ? > ! > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.a  < I wrote two programs to control a voice modem under VMS. See8    http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/groups/gartmann/phone.zip . I only tested them with an Elsa modem, though.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann-  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:59:40 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>hE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)o8 Message-ID: <ongojtgm2vnk5042hiuk92n5ksh3p6oh3c@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:24:19 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:r   >tM >HOWEVER, what does bother me is that the "official" impetus for this move is O >to streamline production and save hundreds of millions of dollars. While Alpha K >design and productions will be gone completely, Compaq would still need to,M >keep those assembly lines to build those remaining Alpha based machines with-O >their motherboards so the savings won't really materialise until Compaq reallyn% >stops building Alpha based machines.r  B And recall that Compaq has just effectively closed its Scottish PCD plant as non-profitable but kept open its Scottish Alphaserver plantD (DEC Ayr) which was described as highly profitable at the time. Just) for how much longer remains the question.,     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:53:38 +0100g% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> E Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)t8 Message-ID: <2cgojt0ufv942nmeb0b3cjiaq8cs3abulu@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:49:06 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h wrote:   >hL >But it could simply have meant (as Kerry said in his response) an IA64 chipM >with the absolute minimum of hooks required to allow VMS to run, rather thannK >anything containing any noticeable Alpha features.  I've never figured outtK >whether Kerry is just a cheerfully ignorant (and persistent) parrot of the D >Compaq party line or a cheerfully shrewd (and persistent) corporateK >manipulator, and sometimes I give him the benefit of the doubt while other@ >times I don't.u  F I think he's just exactly as he seems. A technical VMS sales/pre-salesF guy for Compaq who must do his job of promoting VMS to the best of his> ability. He has to work with the cards Compaq management deal.   >n >- bille >  >p   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 15:09:45 +0200 From: gazso@ludens.elte.huE Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning... (was: Question to Charlie Matco.)m! Message-ID: <TqP9OZ3zTN5n@ludens>   o In article <DPnQ7KfgY1m9@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:iJ > In article <01062811294316@csirke.elte.hu>, gazso@csirke.elte.hu writes:r >> In article <UjY7MfSdZNKl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:H >>> As I read the schedule, Compaq _will_ be continuing to develop AlphaE >>> until IA64 is ready, just not beyond that (i.e., not to EV8 whiche+ >>> would have been delivered beyond that).t >> e >> Here is the big question: >> - until IA64 is ready? or: B >> - until IA64 and the operating system ports for IA64 are ready? >>  O >> In order to calm down a bit the anger in its VMS customers, Compaq should at-N >> least commit itself for it won't stop producing Alphas until: IA64 is readyM >> and OpenVMS is ported to the new platform and the OpenVMS Itanium (or iVMSnF >> or whatever) is supported (and the migration is supported as well). > F > I realize it is hard to read _all_ these notes, there is no date setG > for stopping production of Alphas.  2004 is the approximate time theyeH > expect _new_designs_ to stop.  Somebody quoted Rich Marcello as sayingF > that _sales_ of Alpha _systems_ could extend many years beyond that.F > Somebody else quoted Michael Capellas as admitting that if IA64 fellC > on it's sword Compaq still had the rights to resume designing newa > Alpha chips.  C I read always 'may', 'might', 'could' produce alphas after 2004 if ?F neccessary. What I would like to read is: 'will'. From the first hand,F for example on a compaq website... If Compaq even cannot promise it...  a  Gasparv   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:26:47 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) $ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0106290626.41ec2f7c@posting.google.com>r  t Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<ZPP$E2hhF5UF@eisner.encompasserve.org>...W > In article <9hcgja$37j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:3s > > In article <lFvLl5Tv6P7O@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:yY > >>In article <9hagob$dck$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:  > >>P > >>> Looking at some posts in comp.sys.dec and comp.unix.tru64 the TRU64 peopleL > >>> are concerned about how TRU64 will survive on IA64 in competition with1 > >>> the other Unix systems being ported there.   > >>7 > >>That is what makes for good software - competition.y > >  > > L > > But one of the reasons for buying TRU64 rather than other Unix's was theK > > fact it ran on the Alpha chip. This was a selling point in certain highg" > > performance computing markets. > > > And now they will have to survive on software quality alone,? > meaning there is no opportunity for Tru64 Development to restp@ > on the laurels of the chip designers.  That can only be a goodB > thing for software quality.  The basic principle I am interestedC > in is software quality, rather than Tru64 success.  The same goes 
 > for VMS.+ Intel didn't just buy the alpha chip though / they also got the designers, development tools,U and compiler teams$ (Compaq fortran is now Intel fortran# I don't know about other languages)w3 It wouldn't surprise me if Intel were to release a B1 posix compatible o/s in about 2004 that would runs( faster than tru-64 vms win-2000 or linux Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:38:31 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)y$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....3 Message-ID: <XJxquiDfl1Bs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <1ca82fc6.0106290626.41ec2f7c@posting.google.com>, dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) writes:Ov > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<ZPP$E2hhF5UF@eisner.encompasserve.org>...X >> In article <9hcgja$37j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:t >> > In article <lFvLl5Tv6P7O@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Z >> >>In article <9hagob$dck$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes: >> >>6Q >> >>> Looking at some posts in comp.sys.dec and comp.unix.tru64 the TRU64 peopleMM >> >>> are concerned about how TRU64 will survive on IA64 in competition witho2 >> >>> the other Unix systems being ported there.  >> >>n8 >> >>That is what makes for good software - competition. >> > i >> >  M >> > But one of the reasons for buying TRU64 rather than other Unix's was thetL >> > fact it ran on the Alpha chip. This was a selling point in certain high# >> > performance computing markets.e >> e? >> And now they will have to survive on software quality alone,i@ >> meaning there is no opportunity for Tru64 Development to restA >> on the laurels of the chip designers.  That can only be a goodaC >> thing for software quality.  The basic principle I am interested D >> in is software quality, rather than Tru64 success.  The same goes >> for VMS.o- > Intel didn't just buy the alpha chip though 1 > they also got the designers, development tools,  > and compiler teams& > (Compaq fortran is now Intel fortran% > I don't know about other languages)   ? That "compiler teams" is a broader statement than I have heard.a< Compaq Visual Fortran for Microsoft Windows becomes an Intel< product, but there are also Compaq Fortran compilers for VMS? (VAX and Alpha) and Tru64.  Intel is getting some GEM (backend,lA code generation) people, but that is not the same as all compileri@ folk.  What you say theoretically could be true, but practically, would be a logistic nightmare inside Compaq.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:36:39 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)o$ Subject: Re: Wailing and moaning....+ Message-ID: <9hiaqn$292$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>r  c In article <1ca82fc6.0106290626.41ec2f7c@posting.google.com>, dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) writes:iu >Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<ZPP$E2hhF5UF@eisner.encompasserve.org>...pX >> In article <9hcgja$37j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:t >> > In article <lFvLl5Tv6P7O@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Z >> >>In article <9hagob$dck$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes: >> >>F, >Intel didn't just buy the alpha chip though0 >they also got the designers, development tools, >and compiler teams % >(Compaq fortran is now Intel fortrany$ >I don't know about other languages)    G What does this mean for compilers on DECCAMPUS or the hobbyist program.eE Does Compaq retain ownership of the compilers ?  Or will these become  Royalty items ? I Am I suddenly going to find my University VMS systems no longer have any t compilers ?i  
 David Webb VMS and unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:18:25 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either( Message-ID: <9hh9tf$j30$1@pyrite.mv.net>  L I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE, BUT UNLESS YOU PRODUCE ALPHAMAN BEFORE MORNING I'M CALLING IN THE FBI!   J Kidnapping is bad enough, but you changed his sig as well:  that's *evil*.    K In a slightly more serious vein, something radically changed your viewpointtH around Thursday evening (EDT).  Earlier this week I thought I might haveK noticed a somewhat similar abrupt change in viewpoint from Alan, but eithereJ I was mistaken or he was a little less thoroughly convinced than you were.  G In any event, it seems that Compaq is starting to take *some* action inoH response to all this, and spent some effort on you personally.  However,E it's a little disturbing that this takes the form of unofficial leaks L (though with a high level of specificity) - almost as if they're testing theL waters to see what words it will take to calm them (though of course they'reK still only words, even if voiced as 'official commitments').  When you say,eH "That's what they should have said, because that's what they meant," oneK really has to wonder a little whether they would indeed ever have said someD9 of these things if such a storm hadn't been brewing here.i  G In any event, an important theme in your post is voiced in phrases like9B "Alpha-optimized Itanium-II" coupled with the implication that itsK performance will differ significantly from vanilla Itanium - an implicationmG made explicit soon after by "With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-IIDH (read: fixing what's wrong with Itanium-I with Alpha technology)..." andI "Compaq is helping Intel design the next generation of IA64 which will begF based on Alpha technology and optimized for Compaq operating systems".  B This is exactly what I've been calling 'bullshit' from Kerry (noteI especially the 'based on' phrase above).  While my opinion of its contentoJ hasn't changed (I *strongly* doubt that Intel, even if it wanted to, couldK ship an IA64 architecture member incorporating significant amounts of Alpha E technology much before 2006), if Kerry was actually just uncriticallyiJ passing on the internal Compaq party line then he's less to blame than hisG masters are.  In any event, it's an important area requiring *a lot of*a+ clarification before it will be believable.w  K Another is continued Alpha availability:  you state "Compaq has changed the F Alpha plan from a 25 year lifespan to a promise for a minimum 20 yearsL (2012)", but while that date seems comfortably far in the future its meaningL is not clear.  In particular, if it means that you can order an Alpha systemK (not just parts) as a standard product from Compaq right through 2012, that G could make people feel warmer and fuzzier (assuming they trust Compaq'sVC word) than if it only means that Alpha systems sold earlier will bewF supported, perhaps at custom rates, through that date.  Of course, theG likelihood that no further Alpha development will take place after 2003oI (funny how EV7 has now slipped out that far, isn't it?) could still put aa) damper on Alpha use in the next decade...n  J And finally, there are the VMS-specific aspects of all this (which is whatK most people here have been discussing, even though they formed a negligible J part of the announcement).  Because while the announcement focused on whatK was (allegedly) good for Compaq, what people here tend to be most concerned % with is what's good (or bad) for VMS.d  I One one the four points on the "What it means to Compaq" announcement-day F .ppt slide was "Accelerate adoption of 64-bit Windows 2000" - the onlyD mention of a specific OS on the slide.  I'm inclined to view that asL significant - especially when viewed in the light of Winkler's recent 'focusG on industry-standard solutions' and 'do everything once, and only once'eK comments (yeah, it's late at night and I paraphrased rather than going backeK to find the exact words, but they're pretty close to verbatim and virtually4 identical in content).  K Compaq actually did do a decent job of presenting this in the best possiblesG light, aided in no small part by Terry's too-slick-to-get-a-grip-on SKCrH column (c'mon, Terry - in all that effusive praise, you couldn't come upJ with a single down-side to the deal?  I really don't think you were tryingI to...).  If you just listen to what they said and don't think really hard45 about what was left out, it's easy to walk away sold.t  K But while it may be possible to view this change as a good move for Compaq, H this is true only if one accepts that its treatment of Tru64 and VMS wasI never going to change anyway, so the fact that dropping Alpha will almost H certainly significantly stifle new sales (and to perhaps a lesser extentI continuing use) of these systems isn't important in the greater scheme ofoG things - and will allow Compaq to streamline the operations it actuallya cares about.  G Whether that's good news for Compaq as a whole depends upon whether one I believes that a company should adjust to its management's incompetence or H adjust its management instead - but in any event I don't think it's what@ most of the people in c.o.v. were hoping to see as part of VMS's 'renaissance'.   - bill    K [Sorry for reproducing the original post in its entirety below, but in thisaJ case that seemed more appropriate in case anyone missed it the first time:F the content is pretty significant to the past four days' discussions.]    9 "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> wrote in message:5 news:eRQ_6.15806$P5.5220938@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...a? > Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message-6 > news:sfH_6.744$Bp5.423334@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...I > > As for Compaq, they are limited to whatever they can wring out of the, EV7 L > > design, which apparently is EV78 and EV79. So if this migration does notJ > > work, or the new VMS- (and T64 and NSK) ready silicon is not available in( > > the 2004 timeframe, Compaq is toast. > J > That's not true.  EV7, EV78, and EV79 are simply what the Q has publiclyJ > _promised_ to deliver.  If they want, or find that they need, to deliverG > more than that, they can continue with shrinks and speed bumps beyonds that. G > Development OS's will be available before Itanium-II -- they have to,wH > because that's all that's available for the folks in Nashua to work onL > today.  It may not perform as well as Alpha-optimized Itanium-II will, butE > work can start today, and customers will be able to start their own-J > development on iVMS in 2003, again, before Itanium-II and independent of it.k >sL > With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-II (read: fixing what's wrong withK > Itanium-I with Alpha technology), we can hope that there won't be as many E > slips and delays as what we saw with the college kids doing Itanic.F > F > The Q has committed to support Alpha until at least 2012.  They haveI > promises from Samsung for EV6 and IBM for EV7 until at least that date.- Too-> > bad they didn't tell customers and the press that on Monday. >iE > What the buffoons<^J> Q marketing types should have done is had theh partnercI > presentation on Monday and the public press conference on Tuesday.  And8 they > should have announced: > A >  . Compaq has changed the Alpha plan from a 25 year lifespan tooD >    a promise for a minimum 20 years (2012), although it may extendD >    longer than that, if we deem it necessary.  We will fully staffE >    for EV7, EV78, EV79, and any subsequent improvements beyond thatdD >    as necessary, and all current EV7 development remains on track. >hB >  . Compaq is starting work on adding yet another 64 bit platform) >    for Tru64, OpenVMS, and NSK -- IA64.l > E >  . Compaq is helping Intel design the next generation of IA64 whichiI >    will be based on Alpha technology and optimized for Compaq operatingvC >    systems.  Intel will pay Compaq an undisclosed amount for thisi >    technology transfer.e >eF >  . Intel will hire Alpha engineers from Compaq as their design tasksE >    are finished at Compaq, based on the above schedule.  Intel willn# >    pay Compaq for this expertise.i >.G >  . Compaq will open up OpenVMS to run on any company's IA64 platform,iF >    although we will offer value-added features for Compaq platforms.E >    Support on other vendors' platforms will be left to the hardwareaF >    vendor, just as Microsoft does today with their Windows products,> >    unless that hardware is specifically qualified by Compaq. >iJ >  . Translation tools for both Alpha and VAX and MIPS applications are in theuJ >    investigation stage; initial research makes us feel confident that weH >    will be able to provide such tools for initial OpenVMS and NSK/IA64
 > support.@ >    (Translation tools are not critical in the open source UNIX
 environment.)  >cA >  . Support for VAX and Alpha OpenVMS applications will continueo? >    indefinitely.  Your applications will continue to run in a C >    supported VMS environment on any supported VAX, Alpha, or IA64 E >    platform with full support from Compaq.  Today, we can guarantee B >    that support until at least 2012; we will extend that date as- >    long as customers need it in the future.  >sI > You know what folks?  That's what they should have said, because that'se whatG > they meant.  The Intel brainwashed numbies just didn't phrase it liket that.1K > They have a real problem understanding how to make stuff palatable for usYJ > enterprise consumers.  I think they honestly believe everyone just loves thegK > Blue Man Group, Bunny suited mimes, and the stoopid 5 note arpeggio.  Getv apK > grip, Mr. C -- such just AIN'T the case.  We were NOT amused to hear thateC > you'd sold Alpha to Intel as the opening to your news conference.b >qJ > Somebody at Planet Houston needs to seriously think about hiring someone whom3 > knows how to speak to enterprise computer people.  >n > Aarone > --@ > Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html@ > Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/J > "The supersonic boom should hit you in just a few seconds." (Apollo 440) >t >r >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:11:17 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>s4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either7 Message-ID: <009FE41D.104DACE5.38@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>S   > M > Another problem was product placement, which goes along with noncompetitivedJ > prices.  They should have produced low-cost low-end Alpha motherboards, F > even if those systems would not outperform higher end Intel systems. > F > I think a lot of hobbyists and small shops might have purchased suchI > systems which would have seeded the future.  A lot of large businesses wL > with a stake in big Alpha Iron might have had a place for commodity Alphas
 > as well. >  [snip] > jordan@greenapple.com- >   B You ain't kidding. Not just those markets, but the much larger one of number crunching.  F Alpha wasn't unsuccessful in that market, but if you calculated crunchF per buck you came to the conclusion that Intel (more recently AMD) wasC best value. That's provided you could sensibly spread what you were.F doing across more slower systems. That depends on (a) your algorithms,G (b) your programmers, and (c) whether you need realtime results or not.rF To take an easy example, a digital movie needs each of a big number ofF frames to be rendered. It's trivial to utilise N times as many systemsJ each one-Nth of the performance, the finished product takes the same time.  E I don't know the percentages, but there are a lot of PC-based BeowolfeF "clusters" out there that could have been Alpha-based had Alpha boards been sold competitively.    K BTW many PC manufacturers are missing out here as well. A lot of scientistsaM build their own, because they want the fastest CPU, loads of RAM, a good NIC,AK a carefuly selected/specified hard disk for the task to hand, no CD device,nL the cheapest video card, and no monitor, keyboard, mouse or Microsoft. Very G few big companies will sell you that, even if you want a bunch of them.t   	Yours,o
 		Nigel Arnotg- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   t  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:19:48 +0000 (UTC)i' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)y4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either+ Message-ID: <9hho8k$pd2$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>r  \ In article <3B3B91FB.CE482EF0@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >"Terry C. Shannon" wrote:M >> etc). If Compaq doesn't communicate this grand plan rapidly, convincingly,-L >> and coherently, it will be labeled as a Risky Scheme and it will fail. So$ >> will Compaq Computer Corporation. >yL >Compaq did very well without Digital. It may have a bad few quarters as theL >VMS/Alpha revenus dry up, and Capellas might be replaced by Winkler, but inM >the end, Compaq will survive without VMS once it is allowed to return to itsL> >core competency of building on behalf od Microsoft and Intel.  9 Except that if that happens DELL will eat them for lunch.k6 The PC market has changed since Compaq bought Digital.  
 David Webb VMs and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:33:08 -0300a) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brb4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 eitherL Message-ID: <OFA4E523BA.4731EAFC-ON03256A7A.003F621F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  J If Itanium become unsucessfull ..... probably Compaq or Intel will wake up for Alpha !t   Regards    FC        8 david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) em 29/06/2001 08:19:48  3 Favor responder a david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)r             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com>      4 Assunto: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either    5 In article <3B3B91FB.CE482EF0@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei & <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >"Terry C. Shannon" wrote:? >> etc). If Compaq doesn't communicate this grand plan rapidly,>
 convincingly, I >> and coherently, it will be labeled as a Risky Scheme and it will fail.l So$ >> will Compaq Computer Corporation. >>H >Compaq did very well without Digital. It may have a bad few quarters as theoI >VMS/Alpha revenus dry up, and Capellas might be replaced by Winkler, butn inI >the end, Compaq will survive without VMS once it is allowed to return tof itsn> >core competency of building on behalf od Microsoft and Intel.  9 Except that if that happens DELL will eat them for lunch.o6 The PC market has changed since Compaq bought Digital.  
 David Webb VMs and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:35:25 +0100b/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>W4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either7 Message-ID: <009FE420.6F1A6FD0.39@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>-   > K > As for Compaq, they are limited to whatever they can wring out of the EV7iJ > design, which apparently is EV78 and EV79. So if this migration does notK > work, or the new VMS- (and T64 and NSK) ready silicon is not available inc& > the 2004 timeframe, Compaq is toast. >   K Applying Moore's law and experience with other architectures, I think they eJ have a bit more slack. Process-shrinks and tweaks seem to get you a factorI of eight, before a radical new core becomes necessary. So EV7 ought to be E able to stay up with the pack for six years from now, not just three.e  M Another way to put this is that they could probably do an EV710 for 2005-6 ifaI they need it to buy time (or just if there is a market for it, like there'0 was for one more faster microVAX before the end)  F Also if Intel can't get IA64 offering competitive performance by 2004,M I suspect Intel is toast! AMD will by then be shipping Hammers, and Microsoftm! are happy with either for Win64. h   	Yours,p
 		Nigel ArnotC- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   i  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."f   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:11:19 GMT . From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either; Message-ID: <X7%_6.17013$P5.5646572@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>@  0 Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hh9tf$j30$1@pyrite.mv.net...J > I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE, BUT UNLESS YOU PRODUCE ALPHAMAN BEFORE MORNING I'M  > CALLING IN THE FBI!L > L > Kidnapping is bad enough, but you changed his sig as well:  that's *evil*.   LMAO!  Har har!! 8^D  L Look Bill, don't get me wrong -- I am THOROUGHLY pi$$ed at the Q's inabilityB to sell 24 karat gold in a market where 1 karat is standard.  I amH THOROUGHLY pi$$ed at their inept bungling of the announcement this week.C Like I said before, this one was WORSE than the previous mid-summeruI meltdown, two years ago.  Not only did they come straight out and say "WeiD sold Alpha to Intel.  Alpha is dead.", they freaking didn't mean it!  D What happened to me was that I had the pleasure of a discussion heldJ yesterday with the techies -- John Loether and Mark Gorham were two peopleL included, and I continued my conversation with Mark via email afterwards.  AF lot came out of those discussions that was NOT made evident on Monday.  H I'd say go back and look at the postings by Kerry and others inside.  InE retrospect, I'd have to say they're right.  Funny how the guys on theeL inside, the grunts with the marching orders, know better than the CEO what's1 going on, and are MUCH better at articulating it.s  I Kerry Main for CEO!  No, no, I take that back -- we wouldn't want to losemL him...  (I remember when someone called "him" a "her" on the AlphaNT list...& ;^)  Sorry, Kerry, had to reminisce...  K Simply put, Intel has finally admitted, at least privately, they don't knowgI how to design a 64 bit processor.  They need decent engineers, and that'ssJ where the xfer of Alpha engineers to Intel fits.  What is missing from theJ publicly presented equation is the quiet flow in the opposite direction of- undisclosed numbers of large buckets of cash.y  K More specifically put, the next generation Itanium processor, Itanium-II (adK la "Pentium II"), while it will not contain specific Alpha components, willcJ be designed by Alpha engineers (if many of them go ;^) and it will containI features that will help to optimize the processor to Q-specific operatingtJ systems.  What are the details beyond that?  I don't know -- no one knows,K because pen hasn't been put to paper (light pen hasn't been put to screen?)iF yet for this chip design.  That's the EV8 team's task.  Build a better@ Itanium than anything Intel or HP could, and call it Itanium-II.  " VLIW with Alpha breadth and depth.  L Why do I now believe this?  Because this is what was relayed to me by peopleI who could talk tech-speak and who are in charge of executing the marching A orders.  This is the message that was relayed to over 200 partner19 organizations yesterday in a VERY bi-directional concall.n  J Should they have said this to the partners BEFORE Monday's bomblast?  DAMNJ STRAIGHT!  Should they have said it during the Monday presentation?  Well,L it would be quite a delicate thing to have said with Craigy-boy sitting nextK to Mikey, but they sure as hell could have done a far sight better than theu cluster-f* job they did.  L I am now talking to the Q about packaging of OpenVMS -- I for one would likeI to see commodity level pricing (or at least something that approaches it)eB and also both workstation and server variants, priced accordingly.  K Shrink wrapped OpenVMS sitting on a store shelf?  I dunno if we'll ever seerK that, but it may be the kind of thing that could be ordered from Merisel ornH one of their distributors.  If that's the kind of thing we want, though,K that's the kind of thing we need to tell Compaq NOW!  This is the period tofD get your input in on how you'd like to see OpenVMS on Alphanium, uh,  Itanium-II, positioned and sold.   AaronW --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/1 http://members.home.com/sakovich/AllYourAlpha.jpg    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:03:56 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either: Message-ID: <gV%_6.415$9r6.433696@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9hh9tf$j30$1@pyrite.mv.net...J > I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE, BUT UNLESS YOU PRODUCE ALPHAMAN BEFORE MORNING I'M  > CALLING IN THE FBI!y >iL > Kidnapping is bad enough, but you changed his sig as well:  that's *evil*. >o >tC > In a slightly more serious vein, something radically changed youro	 viewpoint J > around Thursday evening (EDT).  Earlier this week I thought I might haveF > noticed a somewhat similar abrupt change in viewpoint from Alan, but eitherL > I was mistaken or he was a little less thoroughly convinced than you were. >eI > In any event, it seems that Compaq is starting to take *some* action inwJ > response to all this, and spent some effort on you personally.  However,G > it's a little disturbing that this takes the form of unofficial leaks J > (though with a high level of specificity) - almost as if they're testing thetF > waters to see what words it will take to calm them (though of course they'reeH > still only words, even if voiced as 'official commitments').  When you say,J > "That's what they should have said, because that's what they meant," oneH > really has to wonder a little whether they would indeed ever have said some; > of these things if such a storm hadn't been brewing here.u  E It seems to me that www.theinquirer.net started stirring the pot last G Wednesday. They were the first (if not the only) source of a reasonablynC accurate connect-the-dots scenario. Of course, the Capellas June 124J "Transformation" memo had interesting implications if one read between the lines.  I If Compaq wanted to test the waters, they would do what they normally do:.G hire a focus group. And they would do the testing in an environment farK different that this newsgroup.   > I > In any event, an important theme in your post is voiced in phrases like,D > "Alpha-optimized Itanium-II" coupled with the implication that itsA > performance will differ significantly from vanilla Itanium - ant implicationnI > made explicit soon after by "With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-II J > (read: fixing what's wrong with Itanium-I with Alpha technology)..." andK > "Compaq is helping Intel design the next generation of IA64 which will beaH > based on Alpha technology and optimized for Compaq operating systems". >uD > This is exactly what I've been calling 'bullshit' from Kerry (noteK > especially the 'based on' phrase above).  While my opinion of its contenteL > hasn't changed (I *strongly* doubt that Intel, even if it wanted to, couldG > ship an IA64 architecture member incorporating significant amounts ofa AlphahG > technology much before 2006), if Kerry was actually just uncritically L > passing on the internal Compaq party line then he's less to blame than hisI > masters are.  In any event, it's an important area requiring *a lot of*l- > clarification before it will be believable.   J The amount, nature, and timing of Alpha technology that'll be incorporatedF in IA-64 is indeed a subject of great interest. Being as the new IA-64H platform team has just been thrown together, I fear we'll have to wait a while to get further details.t   > I > Another is continued Alpha availability:  you state "Compaq has changedn thehH > Alpha plan from a 25 year lifespan to a promise for a minimum 20 yearsF > (2012)", but while that date seems comfortably far in the future its meaningcG > is not clear.  In particular, if it means that you can order an Alphak systemH > (not just parts) as a standard product from Compaq right through 2012, thatI > could make people feel warmer and fuzzier (assuming they trust Compaq's E > word) than if it only means that Alpha systems sold earlier will be H > supported, perhaps at custom rates, through that date.  Of course, theI > likelihood that no further Alpha development will take place after 2003qK > (funny how EV7 has now slipped out that far, isn't it?) could still put au+ > damper on Alpha use in the next decade...p  K Of course it will put a damper on Alpha use, just as the termination of VAXtH upgrades put a damper on VAX use. EV79 has been a 2003 product for quiteK some time now, no change there. Alpha-Inside Himalaya systems were targeted : for late '03, IA-64 Himmies now appear to be '04 products.   >uL > And finally, there are the VMS-specific aspects of all this (which is whatB > most people here have been discussing, even though they formed a
 negligibleL > part of the announcement).  Because while the announcement focused on whatC > was (allegedly) good for Compaq, what people here tend to be most 	 concerned ' > with is what's good (or bad) for VMS.i  J What would you expect to be discussed in comp.os.vms? Seems to me that VMSJ poses the greatest porting challenges. But  it *is* interesting that thereH has been relatively little traffic in comp.sys.dec, comp.org.decus, etc.   >pK > One one the four points on the "What it means to Compaq" announcement-dayrH > .ppt slide was "Accelerate adoption of 64-bit Windows 2000" - the onlyF > mention of a specific OS on the slide.  I'm inclined to view that asG > significant - especially when viewed in the light of Winkler's recenta 'focusI > on industry-standard solutions' and 'do everything once, and only once' H > comments (yeah, it's late at night and I paraphrased rather than going backC > to find the exact words, but they're pretty close to verbatim and 	 virtuallyo > identical in content). >hD > Compaq actually did do a decent job of presenting this in the best possibleI > light, aided in no small part by Terry's too-slick-to-get-a-grip-on SKCiJ > column (c'mon, Terry - in all that effusive praise, you couldn't come upL > with a single down-side to the deal?  I really don't think you were tryingK > to...).  If you just listen to what they said and don't think really hard/7 > about what was left out, it's easy to walk away sold.   G Given the timeframe in which the column was written, and the space withsL which I had to work, I put in what I could put in. Given the time to add twoE more pages, I can assure you I would have addressed the marketing andwG positioning issue in greater detail than: Due to a multitude of issues, C including marketing malfeasance, missed opportunities, an expensivetB dalliance with Merchant Microprocessordom, a dangerous liason withC Microsoft, low ISV acceptance, OS obfuscation, premium pricing, andhI lingering concerns about architectural viability and longevity, the AlphayD architecture was a technological tour de force that overpromised andH underdelivered. Although Digital and Compaq managed to sell perhaps 800KH Alpha systems over the past eight years, the ~100K per year run rate wasJ less than 10 percent of the shipment rate Digital originally projected for the Alpha product family.   H But that pretty much sums up how things came to be where they are. WhereF they go from here depends largely on Compaq's ability to market and to convince customers and ISVs.     >oE > But while it may be possible to view this change as a good move forr Compaq,yJ > this is true only if one accepts that its treatment of Tru64 and VMS wasK > never going to change anyway, so the fact that dropping Alpha will almostrJ > certainly significantly stifle new sales (and to perhaps a lesser extentK > continuing use) of these systems isn't important in the greater scheme ofeI > things - and will allow Compaq to streamline the operations it actually' > cares about.  E Why would Compaq want to stifle sales of the only products (iPAQs andaD Storage and to a lesser extent Services) that are generating profit?   > I > Whether that's good news for Compaq as a whole depends upon whether onetK > believes that a company should adjust to its management's incompetence orNJ > adjust its management instead - but in any event I don't think it's whatB > most of the people in c.o.v. were hoping to see as part of VMS's > 'renaissance'. >   A Ideally, a port of OpenVMS to IA-64 together with continued Alpha 9 development would have been a much more attractive story.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:07:31 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>,4 Subject: RE: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 eitherL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2012@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  L You can cure technical problems with technical solutions, but you can't cure) poor management with technical solutions.o   Regards,   Chrise  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developero Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");s 'S  m   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Alphaman [mailto:alphaman64@nixspam-home.com]   ; > With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-II (read: fixing p > what's wrong withd; > Itanium-I with Alpha technology), we can hope that there p > won't be as manyE > slips and delays as what we saw with the college kids doing Itanic.i   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 14:47:22 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either, Message-ID: <9hi4dq$e1v@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  l In article <eRQ_6.15806$P5.5220938@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:K >With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-II (read: fixing what's wrong with J >Itanium-I with Alpha technology), we can hope that there won't be as manyD >slips and delays as what we saw with the college kids doing Itanic.  J They may be able to fix it, but probably without using Alpha technology.  H That would be like transplanted the heart of a horse into a camel.  Yes,: it's still a heart, but it won't work in the other animal.  : >The Q has committed to support Alpha until at least 2012.  I There is ample historical evidence to indicate that there is no reason toeC believe anything that the Q says.  Their corporate word is about asr; reliable as an '89 Hyundai that's never had an oil change. l  M >Somebody at Planet Houston needs to seriously think about hiring someone whop2 >knows how to speak to enterprise computer people.  H No need for that - they soon won't have any enterprise system customers   left that they need to speak to.     David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech pJ **************************************************************************J *                       RIP VMS & ALPHA                                  *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:52:36 GMT:4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either: Message-ID: <UC0%6.458$9r6.450988@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  8 "Christopher Smith" <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in messageF news:3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D2012@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com...I > You can cure technical problems with technical solutions, but you can'tK cure+ > poor management with technical solutions.m >a
 > Regards, >o > Chris   # Now there's the TRUISM of the WEEK!i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:52:44 GMTr. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 eitherD Message-ID: <0D0%6.4133$eL5.449480@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  9 "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> wrote in messaged5 news:eRQ_6.15806$P5.5220938@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...uF >  . Intel will hire Alpha engineers from Compaq as their design tasksE >    are finished at Compaq, based on the above schedule.  Intel willr# >    pay Compaq for this expertise.   K This is what is the most disturbing.  Intel and Compaq don't view things in L terms of paying the employees for the expertise, but rather view the company% as being the source of the expertise.I  ( It goes back to the Dilbert observation:E        valued customer - the value that we place on selling your name:J                                     or the right to service you to someone elseI        valued employee - the maximum of the amount the company market capd per headI                                      goes up when we lay the employee off$ and the consideration J                                      received when you are sold to another companyN  K Sun has reinvigorated their campus in Mass into a technlogy center.  Oracle:I built a technology center next to DEC's facility to hold the Rdb team but-7 used that as a focus for a northeast technology center.k  C So, who else has technology centers in New Hampshire and Mass?  TheeK companies that I'd like to hear are actively seeking to attract people are:     AMD - chip design, cad toolsoI    IBM - compilers, chip design, system design, telco, system integrationu  E I'm not one of the people that would immediately attract any of these'L companies because my value comes from know a little about a lot, but once myG DEC friends are involved with interesting and challanging projects with J modest support from their company, there will be lots of opportunities forK me and lots of my xDEC and xCPQ peers.  We've got a track record of workingaJ hard through the good and bad times, taking the long view, and not looking for the quick personal gain.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 08:06:13 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)s4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either, Message-ID: <2VNkw1EpXL3y@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  ( In article <9hh9tf$j30$1@pyrite.mv.net>,-     "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:e > M > Another is continued Alpha availability:  you state "Compaq has changed theiH > Alpha plan from a 25 year lifespan to a promise for a minimum 20 yearsN > (2012)", but while that date seems comfortably far in the future its meaningN > is not clear.  In particular, if it means that you can order an Alpha systemM > (not just parts) as a standard product from Compaq right through 2012, thatc+ > could make people feel warmer and fuzziern  :     Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I'm retiring in 2011 ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:47:10 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either8 Message-ID: <av3pjt8uo4u01lh468dq17243onc8i2tkf@4ax.com>  , On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:11:19 GMT, "Alphaman"$ <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> wrote:  I >I'd say go back and look at the postings by Kerry and others inside.  IneF >retrospect, I'd have to say they're right.  Funny how the guys on theM >inside, the grunts with the marching orders, know better than the CEO what'st2 >going on, and are MUCH better at articulating it.  E Or the CEO articulates the real future and the grunts are sent out tocD spin the lies to customers to prevent them from stampeding, This hasF been the actual situation with all previous "unexpected" announcements2 yet here you are saying "Funny how the guys on theE inside, the grunts with the marching orders, know better than the CEOv what's going on"  C I am not accusing the grunts of telling lies. They were telling theaD truth as they knew it that "Alpha/NT was the future" and that "AlphaE was safe and EV8 *fully funded*". So the CEO hammers in the nails and F the grunts backtrack and you tell us now that we should assume the CEOA is incompetent and because of this we should be happy. Wow!!!!!!!a     -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:34:40 GMTh. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 eitherD Message-ID: <ke1%6.4217$eL5.457376@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  9 "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> wrote in messages5 news:eRQ_6.15806$P5.5220938@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...   K Even with the disclaimer about "forward looking statements" etc., you can't,J lie, and stretching things too far is a good way to land yourself in courtK with lots of discovery going on to determine the extent to which statements ( made are backed up with fact and action.  J > That's not true.  EV7, EV78, and EV79 are simply what the Q has publiclyJ > _promised_ to deliver.  If they want, or find that they need, to deliver  H There was no commitment for more than two Alpha bumps - a faster EV6 and	 then EV7.5K All evidence is that there will be no follow-on to EV7.  Doing a shink liketC EV45, EV56, EV67,  EV68, or EV69 require(d) significant engineeringYL resources.  It doesn't require going back to the chip architecture and floorE planning which determines the interconnect parameters, but with those:K constraints, there is a lot of work and validation.  Since there is usuallylK a bottleneck or two, those need to be addressed to gain the maximum benefitw  from switching to a new process.  L > With Alpha engineers working on Itanium-II (read: fixing what's wrong withK > Itanium-I with Alpha technology), we can hope that there won't be as many E > slips and delays as what we saw with the college kids doing Itanic.w  J I don't think anyone involved in this deal feels that there is any flaw inJ IA64.  What EV7 has to offer is the integrated design which eliminates all* glue logic for building a scalable system.  F > The Q has committed to support Alpha until at least 2012.  They haveI > promises from Samsung for EV6 and IBM for EV7 until at least that date.c Too > > bad they didn't tell customers and the press that on Monday.  K The commitment for J-11 and NVAX chips was for shorter time frames with thelL result that new PDP-11 chips had to be designed and the VAX demand has meantK going back to the used market to meet demand.  It turns out that the end ofeI the VAX was as much a race between NVAX chips as it was for supply of alle1 the old jelly beans needed to build a VAX system.e  A >  . Compaq has changed the Alpha plan from a 25 year lifespan tomD >    a promise for a minimum 20 years (2012), although it may extendD >    longer than that, if we deem it necessary.  We will fully staffE >    for EV7, EV78, EV79, and any subsequent improvements beyond thataD >    as necessary, and all current EV7 development remains on track.  : EV7 isn't fully staffed today...  Nothing commits to EV78.  E >  . Compaq is helping Intel design the next generation of IA64 whichlI >    will be based on Alpha technology and optimized for Compaq operatingiC >    systems.  Intel will pay Compaq an undisclosed amount for thisa >    technology transfer.   H I suppose that statement is as true as one like "Compaq is improving the; quality of life for all" by contributing to the United Way.t  G >  . Compaq will open up OpenVMS to run on any company's IA64 platform,lF >    although we will offer value-added features for Compaq platforms.E >    Support on other vendors' platforms will be left to the hardwareaF >    vendor, just as Microsoft does today with their Windows products,> >    unless that hardware is specifically qualified by Compaq.  K Nothing in the statements made suggest that this is intended, nor practicalaB to meet VMS customer expectations.  I don't know enough about IA64J platforms, but do they have bios that looks like ARC or like SRM consoles.G Note that Compaq has its own bios for intel systems and I don't know ofuA anyone who would demand that other vendors clone the Compaq bios.   J >  . Translation tools for both Alpha and VAX and MIPS applications are in theaJ >    investigation stage; initial research makes us feel confident that weH >    will be able to provide such tools for initial OpenVMS and NSK/IA64
 > support.  K I suppose that a google query for binary translation, etc. would constitutei research...   @ >    (Translation tools are not critical in the open source UNIX
 environment.)   G Right.  Anyone can go in and recompile Oracle, Sybase, Peoplesoft, SAP;t: that's why those applications are so current on VMS today.  A >  . Support for VAX and Alpha OpenVMS applications will continuea? >    indefinitely.  Your applications will continue to run in aAC >    supported VMS environment on any supported VAX, Alpha, or IA64tE >    platform with full support from Compaq.  Today, we can guaranteepB >    that support until at least 2012; we will extend that date as- >    long as customers need it in the future.u  D Intel finally relented and switched from VAX to Alpha because CompaqL couldn't meet Intel's needs for VAX/VMS systems into the future.  Maybe thisL played a big part in Intel's interest in buying Alpha: if Intel couldn't getK one of its suppliers to switch its product to an Intel platform, then InteliA had something to fear from the platform that this product ran on.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:50:18 GMTh1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>l4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either2 Message-ID: <3B3CA4A9.90DCDEBF@clarityconnect.com>  G And Terry questions whether ya'll can get the marketing job done.  Tellt* him he's buying his own beer next time ;*)   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:m > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:NiPpP$lk7m1Q@eisner.encompasserve.org... J > > In article <eRQ_6.15806$P5.5220938@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>, "Alphaman"' > <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:" > >uI > > > What the buffoons<^J> Q marketing types should have done is had the 	 > partner M > > > presentation on Monday and the public press conference on Tuesday.  Andf > they > > > should have announced: > > : > > <snip different expression of the facts known to date> > >n? > > Certainly the timing and wording of the Monday announcementt? > > had to be something agreed with Intel.  It emphasized totalh@ > > committment to Intel, whereas newsgroup discussion has shownB > > several areas where Compaq has other options.  Certainly IntelB > > lawyers are aware of options open to Compaq if things go sour,? > > but that is something Intel would rather not see publicized'A > > because it weakens public faith in IA64.  And Intel is payingi > > money for this.  > E > Still, Aaron brings up a valid point: if Compaq doesn't effectivelylI > communicate this transition scheme, Compaq is toast. And given the rich L > marketing heritage CPQ inherited from DEC Classic and CPQ Classic, one has& > to wonder if they're up to the task.   -- oD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:04:49 GMTc4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either: Message-ID: <BG1%6.485$9r6.476408@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  < "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message, news:3B3CA4A9.90DCDEBF@clarityconnect.com...I > And Terry questions whether ya'll can get the marketing job done.  Tellh, > him he's buying his own beer next time ;*)  I No worries, I don't drink beer. I leave that to The Snoop With a Thousandg Livers.o  I But there is some encouraging behind-the-scenes marketing stuff going on.iH CPQ actually set up a "War Room" to deal with the recent turn of events.  B Whether the brass in the War Room can see the forest for the TREES. (double-entendre intended) remains to be seen.   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:59:13 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.320117.killspam.015d (Wayne Sewell)c4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either. Message-ID: <ZaZaapj4lY$l@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  a In article <9hfi2r$428@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:c > In article <rdeininger-2706011519320001@user-2ivebp7.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:l >>I >>The "couple of guys" scheme has one major flaw, I think.  To build eacheF >>module on another platform, they'll need compilers targeted to thoseL >>platforms.  And a couple of guys can't make those compilers in their spare >>time without getting caught. > L > For the PowerPC they don't have to make compilers - they can use the ones 
 > from IBM.  h    B These ibm compilers generate code in the vms object module format?     -- dO ===============================================================================lM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)rO =============================================================================== K Hotel guy (after bed demolition):  That bed goes back to Henry the eighth!! O    Curly: That's nothin'!  We had a bed go back to Sears and Roebuck the fifth!m   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 09:19:11 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)\4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either, Message-ID: <qGCJOOvjHHzQ@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  ; In article <BG1%6.485$9r6.476408@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, i9    "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:l > K > But there is some encouraging behind-the-scenes marketing stuff going on. J > CPQ actually set up a "War Room" to deal with the recent turn of events. > :    Are you sure it's a war room and not a fallout shelter?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:56:30 GMTr4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Re: Why Compaq won't succeed on IA64 either: Message-ID: <2r2%6.493$9r6.492605@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:qGCJOOvjHHzQ@malvm5.mala.bc.ca...< > In article <BG1%6.485$9r6.476408@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,; >    "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  > >tI > > But there is some encouraging behind-the-scenes marketing stuff goinge on.sL > > CPQ actually set up a "War Room" to deal with the recent turn of events. > >w< >    Are you sure it's a war room and not a fallout shelter? >    Touche!a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:40:19 GMTn. From: "mulp" <michaelpettengill@earthlink.net>& Subject: Why VMS on IA64 will succeed?D Message-ID: <Tb2%6.4389$eL5.469935@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  L There is an application that Intel depends on that Intel continued to run onK VAX/VMS until the supply of VAX 7000s ran out.  Rumors are that Intel triedtJ to get this application moved to Windows but was unsucessful in convincingD the vendor do so.  So, Intel finally started migrating to Alpha VMS.  K IBM got over the fact that there were lots of PDP-11s inside of IBM because*I IBM sold more minicomputers than DEC did and might have had more DEC gear 4 under contract than DEC had IBM gear under contract.  K But maybe Intel worried a lot about the fact that they had to use Alpha and-B there were more Alpha systems out there than Intel 64 bit systems.  J Maybe, just maybe, someone would realize that since they had to keep doingL Alpha because it was needed to keep the VMS customers, maybe they should put. a major effort into building the Alpha market.  I Maybe, just maybe, the existance of VMS which needs Alpha keeps alive the H possibility in the minds of Linux folk who fondly remember the DEC gloryI days, would result in Alpha Linux creating market pull for Alpha systems.   H Intel certainly knows about market pull, IBM created market pull for theI x80/x86 architecture with the IBM PC, Microsoft created pull with MS-DOS,tF and then again with Win95.  Intel's Intel Inside campaign wasn't aboutF creating demand for x86 systems, but about creating demand for Intel's version.  L The VAX created pull which DEC couldn't satisfy for a long dry spell betweenL the VAX-11/7xx and the eventual release of the MicroVAX series.  VMS quicklyK created pull that VMS and DEC could barely keep up with as DEC raced to addl= features to VMS and to add compilers, tools and applications.   J And today, VMS creates pull for Alpha VMS systems - neither DEC nor Compaq1 have seriously tried to push VMS into the market.e  J A small group of DEC engineers won over some key Linux folk, creating pull for Alpha Linux.  J What if this pull creates a critical level of demand causing the available applications to explode.  9 Solution, force the VMS apps off of Alpha and on to IA64.   & Rechannel the Alpha pull to IA64 pull.       postscript:   K It could be very interesting if Intel is making it attractive for Compaq to E sell VMS licenses at prices competitive with Microsoft's.  Ie., a VMSiI workstation license for $150-200 with a system, $495 retail, small serveraG license for $250-400 with a system, $800-1000 retail, enterprise server J (cluster support) for $1000-2500 with a system.  VMS customers are used toJ spending money on support contracts that cover hardware and software, theyI understand that the problems they experience involve complex interactionseH between hardware and software.  This might allow Compaq to pull off whatH Microsoft hasn't yet done - turn low priced bundled software to create aJ monthly stream of cash.  Microsoft did use the low priced bundled softwareH to create a pile at least once a year, but its having trouble sustaining that demand.  K Hardware/software support contracts are like insurance, while Microsoft has 3 been selling its wares like new cars are/were sold:a*   trade your (year) old car in for fins...E   trade your (3 year) old rusting hunk of junk in for a shiny new carnE   trade your (5 year) old car in for power sun roof and leather seats-L   trade your (7 year) old car in for a status symbol and a 7-10 year service planC Like the car companies, Microsoft is looking for a new sales model:nI   trade your old car in for a right to drive a car as long as it runs andh8 the obligation to pay us money every month for 3-5 years   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:57:22 +0000 (UTC)a' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)5. Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS+ Message-ID: <9hhmuh$ost$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>o  i In article <3B3B78DB.C3EF113A@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:  >Warren Spencer wrote:E >> Is there any credence to the notion that Windows executables might + >> eventually run under OpenVMS on Itanium?a > C >I doubt it would be a good solution (I have no idea whether Compaq- >wants to do it or not). > : >It is the OS not the instruction set that is difficult to	 >emulate.c >R >ArneC  , Agreed. We have been down this road before. L Part of the affinity program was Bristol Technologies WNT API which allowed  WNT code to be ported to VMS.s Great. Except    1) It was extremely expensive. tN (Both an expensive developers license and a requirement for runtime licenses).   2) It was woefully incomplete.  J 3) Bristol Technologies and Microsoft had a big falling out over Microsoft<    not giving Bristol access to details of the changing API.    M Microsoft has been extremely reluctant to let anyone know full details of itse< API and I don't see that changing without a US court ruling.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:08:33 -0300a) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brh. Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMSL Message-ID: <OFE4E4170F.E7ED4B2C-ON03256A7A.003D1E8F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  D May be the Windows NT APIs are copy of the OpenVMS System Services !* And they didnt paid royalties ... May be ?  
 Fabio Cardosot        8 david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) em 29/06/2001 07:57:22  3 Favor responder a david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)n             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       . Assunto: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS    G In article <3B3B78DB.C3EF113A@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?6" = <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: >Warren Spencer wrote:E >> Is there any credence to the notion that Windows executables might + >> eventually run under OpenVMS on Itanium?d >tC >I doubt it would be a good solution (I have no idea whether Compaqt >wants to do it or not). >,: >It is the OS not the instruction set that is difficult to	 >emulate.  >h >Arnef  + Agreed. We have been down this road before.wK Part of the affinity program was Bristol Technologies WNT API which allowedu WNT code to be ported to VMS.p
 Great. Excepta   1) It was extremely expensive.C (Both an expensive developers license and a requirement for runtimec
 licenses).   2) It was woefully incomplete.  J 3) Bristol Technologies and Microsoft had a big falling out over Microsoft<    not giving Bristol access to details of the changing API.    I Microsoft has been extremely reluctant to let anyone know full details oft itsi< API and I don't see that changing without a US court ruling.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:34:51 -0000e- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) . Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS/ Message-ID: <tjp80rpcq6bnd5@news.supernews.com>a  A hvlems@iae.nl (Hans Vlems) wrote in <9hfsp9$fla$1@news.IAEhv.nl>:t  H >The same problem as why Tru64 executables cannot run under VMS and v.v.K >The system calls, filesystem in other words the entire system context musth >be there as well,. >not just the ability to execute instructions. >g >Hans 9 >Warren Spencer <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message * >news:tjmrd75ved0746@news.supernews.com...E >> Is there any credence to the notion that Windows executables mightoK >> eventually run under OpenVMS on Itanium?  That fact that DEQ has alreadyt2 >> ported Win32 to OpenVMS 7.x has me wondering... >> >> wsi  J The point here is that Win32 has already been ported to OpenVMS.  Is this L enough or are there other (besides MFC) system interfaces required to run a  Windows executable?u   ws   -- d   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:00:47 +0000 (UTC)m' From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) . Subject: Re: Windows Images Running Under iVMS+ Message-ID: <9hic7v$292$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>9  _ In article <tjp80rpcq6bnd5@news.supernews.com>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:rB >hvlems@iae.nl (Hans Vlems) wrote in <9hfsp9$fla$1@news.IAEhv.nl>: >oI >>The same problem as why Tru64 executables cannot run under VMS and v.v.hL >>The system calls, filesystem in other words the entire system context must >>be there as well,t/ >>not just the ability to execute instructions.a >> >>Hans: >>Warren Spencer <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message+ >>news:tjmrd75ved0746@news.supernews.com...lF >>> Is there any credence to the notion that Windows executables mightL >>> eventually run under OpenVMS on Itanium?  That fact that DEQ has already3 >>> ported Win32 to OpenVMS 7.x has me wondering...S >>>t >>> ws >eK >The point here is that Win32 has already been ported to OpenVMS.  Is this tM >enough or are there other (besides MFC) system interfaces required to run a a >Windows executable? >   ! When did DEQ port WIN32 to VMS ??e  < The only port of the WIN32 API I know of was the stuff from  Bristol Technologies.nO Who as far as I know (after their disagreement with Microsoft) no longer exist.e    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 10:12:24 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)) Subject: Re: www.vms-support.com for sale ( Message-ID: <3b3c3868@news.kapsch.co.at>  T In article <9hg4p1$puk1@sv5.cwpanama.net>, "john oxley" <john@johnoxley.com> writes:! >Anyone have an interest in this?    I offer $12.   -- h< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888i< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:19:09 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)aY Subject: Re: [OT] IBM Slow and sclerotic?  ( Was Re: Compaq's Alpha design team  for saler= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0106290619.31b2b516@posting.google.com>h  - <all snipped out of respect for our audience>e3 reading this was like watching elephant seals fightt5 (there may be some point to it, but both participants  end up looking dumb) Phil   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.358 ************************