1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 01 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 119       Contents:= Re: Alpha: game over.  Was Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? A Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? 5 Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL? 9 Re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL?  CanACU/DECUS Canada  Re: CanACU/DECUS Canada # Re: Classic VMS Games - restoration ' Re: Comparison to Absolute date convert  Re: DCL content (long) Re: DCL content (long) Docs for PMAGB-J frame buffer?' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later & Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? Gospel of the Tux 8 How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?P Re: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0 Invalid mail notification  Re: Issue dcl command from NT  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations / Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater. / Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater. " Re: OpenVMS Technical Update Day's" Re: OpenVMS Technical Update Day's" Patrol monitoring software on VMS.4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE! Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % RE: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser " Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32" Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32# Sending e-mail with system routines ' Re: Sending e-mail with system routines 0 Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist# Re: vms 5.5 on vax 4000-200 problem  Re: VMS wanted list. Take II Re: VX1 and PC164LX  Re: VX1 and PC164LX ) Re: [info] Telnet/Rlogin and 7.2-1 broken ! Re: [Request] f$element delimiter ! Re: [Request] f$element delimiter ! Re: [Request] f$element delimiter   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:40:51 -0000 4 From: "John D. Peedle" <john@peedle.freeserve.co.uk>F Subject: Re: Alpha: game over.  Was Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?. Message-ID: <97jull$fsh$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>  L > Fox's Biscuits and maybe Lyons ring a bell as early pioneers of commercial1 > computing, using Burroughs machines, in the UK.  >  > ___  > Paul Sture
 > Switzerland  >   G Not Lyons - they built their own. IIRC they were the first to produce a  commercial system    John D. Peedle   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:50:48 GMT $ From: Wolfgang Rupp <rupp@chello.at>J Subject: Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?5 Message-ID: <Yoen6.147187$GC5.5495028@news.chello.at>   B In comp.sys.dec Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote:I >    I can't believe the cost of making the motherboard upgradeable would G > be anywhere near the cost of needing to replace the entire box to get B > a faster processor. As others have commented, many (most) PeeCeeJ > motherboards are upgradeable and that's in a very cost-sensitive market.  F Well... it's not only that the CPU is soldered in. When I got our DS10D fall, it came with a dead RTC chip. (Good quality control, btw.) TheD little black "Dallas" thingie is exactly the same clock-with-batteryC as in many older PeeCee mainboards. For newer PeeCee maiboards they C already figured out that it makes sense to have a clock chip and an  exchangeable normal battery...  G Anyway. I call Compaq, explain the problem: machine loses time on power E off. My diagnosis: RTC chip dead. Please exchange. _Now_. They send a @ tech two days later. He brings a complete mainboard. He wants toF disassemble the DS10 immediately. I stop him and ask why, since it canI only be the RTC, and I want this over fast. He sees the technical reason, G but is unconvinced because of his part numbers. In the end he exchanged G only the RTC chip, and everything was fine. As he explained, in theory  E he _could_not_ change the battery as such, because it does not have a B Compaq spare part number. The whole mainboard is the spare part!!!  E So, expect to carry USD 2,- to your friendly neighborhood electronics E store in a few years, or pay for a new DS10 mainboard if your battery 7 goes bad and you are not covered by a service contract.   E Which leads to the question why it is not possible to have such cheap E "hardware repair only" arrangements for small Alphas like the CarePaq  for Proliant servers.   
 Wolfgang Rupp    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:04:49 -0600 # From: "Mark E. Levy" <mark@fsi.net> > Subject: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL?$ Message-ID: <3A9D9221.10801@fsi.net>  F I have an application that requires Microsoft SQL server. For reasons E obvious to readers of this NG, I'd prefer to have it live on my OVMS  B box. Pathworks does a great job of making lowly PCs think they're I talking to an NT server. Are there any OVMS based database products that  4 "look" like Microsoft SQL to an unsuspecting PC app?   TIA,  	 Mark Levy  SMA    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:34:34 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com> B Subject: Re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL?( Message-ID: <3A9D991A.DCDD3C2A@mmaz.com>  I There are several ODBC servers for VMS that can support SQL to native RMS E files, DBMS, etc.  We use ConnX from SolutionsIQ.  There are also SQL I databases for VMS, but for a PC to talk to the VMS system it will need to  support ODBC...   L Something else to consider, while still avoiding the evil empire, is runningK Linux on an old PC that may not be able to run Windoze along with something L like mySQL or Borland's Interbase which are both free rdb systems supporting ODBC...      Barry    "Mark E. Levy" wrote:   G > I have an application that requires Microsoft SQL server. For reasons F > obvious to readers of this NG, I'd prefer to have it live on my OVMSC > box. Pathworks does a great job of making lowly PCs think they're J > talking to an NT server. Are there any OVMS based database products that6 > "look" like Microsoft SQL to an unsuspecting PC app? >  > TIA, >  > Mark Levy  > SMA    --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:54:34 GMT - From: David Leinbach <dleinbac@lwfonline.com>  Subject: CanACU/DECUS Canada- Message-ID: <3A9D8F5E.8F1DCD29@lwfonline.com>   F What's going on with CanACU/DECUS Canada?  I sent in my application inB Dec but nothing has happened with that.  I have managed to contactG someone at CanACU but the response was that they were in the process of E acquiring a "Program Office" management firm and that the board would = have a decision by mid-late Feb.  Is anything coming of this?    Thanks   David Leinbach   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:37:21 GMT ; From: "Curtis Rempel" <vmsguy.no.spam.here.please@home.com>   Subject: Re: CanACU/DECUS Canada9 Message-ID: <BBin6.3810$K63.82717@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>   H Good luck is all I can say - you might as well be talking to a pet rock.K Forget them, join Encompass as they now accept non U.S. members - CANACU is K going nowhere fast.  Hope you didn't send any money to them - probably have G better luck putting it in Nortel stock as bad as it is right now...  at + least with Nortel you'd know where it went.   : "David Leinbach" <dleinbac@lwfonline.com> wrote in message' news:3A9D8F5E.8F1DCD29@lwfonline.com... H > What's going on with CanACU/DECUS Canada?  I sent in my application inD > Dec but nothing has happened with that.  I have managed to contactI > someone at CanACU but the response was that they were in the process of G > acquiring a "Program Office" management firm and that the board would ? > have a decision by mid-late Feb.  Is anything coming of this?  >  > Thanks >  > David Leinbach >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:44:49 +1100/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> , Subject: Re: Classic VMS Games - restoration. Message-ID: <4Hin6.204$o4.7540@ozemail.com.au>  , Beyonder <beyonder@vrx.net> wrote in message2 news:ehlt8t8qstcj6db7urcfp73riq891fjv7c@4ax.com...: > Ok, I posted a bit before, but now for the real deal. :)E > Here's some of the stuff I have collected, and still have, and some  > stuff I'm looking for....  > + > These all date back to roughly 1976-1979-  > F > 1. Colossal Cave (Adventure) - I have a copy of the Vax BASIC source > code for this in a printout  > G > 2. Zork - I have the Vax Fortran source code for this. The one I have G > has "self-correcting" code, that is, you make a typo on a line, it'll @ > tell you the line # and what the mistake is. regardless of the; > mistake. The printout for this is something like 6" thick  > F > 3. Rogue - someplace I have the Vax Fortran source printout for this > one  > A > 4. Empire - I have the Vax Fortran source printout for this one  > G > 5. Trek5 - I believe this may be Vax Basic, possibly Fortran. this is . > the age-old single-user Star Trek - classic. > F > 6. Castle - I only have a painstakingly converted version for the PCE > written in Borland Turbo Pascal - could easily be converted to Free . > Pascal (FPC or Gnu). The PC executable is at% > http://nexus.vrx.net/mp3/castle.zip  > D > 7. Trek7 - The holy terror - In my opinion the BEST Star Trek game= > ever made in the history of computer games. Full multi user F > capability, made the way classic Star Trek was meant to be. Full Vax5 > Fortran sources. This restoration project lives at:  > http://nexus.vrx.net/trek7 > G > 8. Wumpus - I have the Vax source printout for this one. Who can live  > without this one? :) > A > 9. The Hidden Crown - Vax source code printout for this old one  > > > 10. Conquest - I have a Vax backup set of this one. requires; > backup/restore to retrieve. Have binary file image on PC.  > F > 11. SpaceWar - the FIRST game ever made. This PDP Classic is truly aE > collectors item. Thankfully I also have a PC (Dos) emulator for the  > PDP so you can play it :)  >  > -----------------------------  > C > Most of these are printouts from a Vax from no more recently than F > 1984. and I still have the paper printouts, which I will need to OCRH > scan (and then clean up for mistakes). Some of them I could simply put > online if people wanted. > F > My ultimate goal will be to put all of these online in a Vax archiveD > (first my own, and possibly later, others).  I wanted to see whichF > ones people would like to see, and if anyone out there wants to help( > clean up the stuff so it'll run again. > F > For example - my empire printout has water stains. about 20 lines of? > code (out of a 1-1.5" printout) were obliterated or partially  > obliterated. > E > Yes I know some of these have been converted to the PC, but I don't H > really care. I'd like to see working Vax versions again (running under5 > the new VMS versions), or ported to Linux. or both!  > @ > So suggestions, comments, requests, and lots of help, would be > appreciated. > E > I'm going to build a new URL for all this, http://nexus.vrx.net/vms > > and stuff everything under there. so trek7 will get moved to@ > http://nexus.vrx.net/vms/trek7 castle will be similarly moved. > A > I'll throw Spacewar and conquest up as soon as I can get to it.  >  > B.= I have the vax source for qix (in pascal) and snake (fortran) < but never had the time (or expertise) to port them to alpha.( I can e-mail them if you are interested. Phil   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:51:58 GMT 8 From: DCantor@remove.three.words.shore.net (Dave Cantor)0 Subject: Re: Comparison to Absolute date convert: Message-ID: <2Xhn6.3676$Ok4.563964@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com>  A In article <Kc8n6.338$tn1.4324@news1.mts.net>, "Mark-Simon Pope"    <mpope@NOSPAM@bristol.ca> wrote:K > It bug's me that Absolute_date = f$cvtime("2001-03-01","ABSOLUTE","DATE") N > does not change comparison date to absolute.  I have ways around this, usingJ > several lines of DCL, but was wondering if there were a simple solution.   Okay, here's a hint:   $ date = "2001-03-01"  $ mm = f$element(1,"-",date)G $ absmonth = f$cvtime("30-dec-+''f$string(mm*30)'-","absolute","month")  $ sho sym absmonth   ABSMONTH = "MAR" $    Dave C.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:50:01 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: DCL content (long) - Message-ID: <3A9D6479.58622E48@earthlink.net>   & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: > R > Folks, there has been so little VMS content here lately (in the old days bits ofO > code), that I thought I might throw some in.  Meritorious or not ... what the R > hell.  (And I am as bad as many for jumping in on u$shaft content and saying "me > too".) > 0 > Just trying to get c.o.v. back to what it was.  F Me, too. I wrote this last year 'bout this time, though I don't recallE exactly why. I called it SHCLU.COM. It displays some interesting bits A about the OpenVMS cluster members, and illustrates the use of the 6 F$CSID() lexical. It was probably written on V6.2 VAX.  
 SHCLU.COM:  C $ IF F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_MEMBER") .EQS. "FALSE" THEN GOTO NOT_CLUSTER  $ say := WRITE SYS$OUTPUT  $ CONTEXT = "" $START:  $ id = F$CSID (CONTEXT)  $ IF id .EQS. "" THEN EXIT& $ nodename = F$GETSYI ("NODENAME",,id)6 $ arch_name = f$elem( 0, " ", F$GETSYI("HW_NAME",,id))) $ soft_type = F$GETSYI("NODE_SWTYPE",,id) ) $ soft_vers = F$GETSYI("NODE_SWVERS",,id) % $ hdwe_name = F$GETSYI("HW_NAME",,id) - $ say f$fao("!9AS !AS - !AS !AS !AS (!AS)", - D nodename + ":", "''id'", soft_type, arch_name, soft_vers, hdwe_name) $ GOTO START
 $NOT_CLUSTER: / $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Not a member of a cluster."  $ EXIT  + Hope wrapping didn't hose it up too much...   F Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME keywordC work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get for  other than the local node.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:11:48 +1100 . From: Mark Forsyth <forsythm@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: DCL content (long) 4 Message-ID: <200102282311.KAA02602@really.bogus.com>  G Can someone stop this rot. I think I've seen it enough times now....:-)    Ooroo 	 Mark F...       ( > paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: > >2T > > Folks, there has been so little VMS content here lately (in the old days bits ofQ > > code), that I thought I might throw some in.  Meritorious or not ... what the T > > hell.  (And I am as bad as many for jumping in on u$shaft content and saying "me
 > > too".) > >t2 > > Just trying to get c.o.v. back to what it was. > H > Me, too. I wrote this last year 'bout this time, though I don't recallG > exactly why. I called it SHCLU.COM. It displays some interesting bitsaC > about the OpenVMS cluster members, and illustrates the use of theb8 > F$CSID() lexical. It was probably written on V6.2 VAX. >  > SHCLU.COM: > E > $ IF F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_MEMBER") .EQS. "FALSE" THEN GOTO NOT_CLUSTER  > $ say := WRITE SYS$OUTPUTt > $ CONTEXT = ""	 > $START:t > $ id = F$CSID (CONTEXT)  > $ IF id .EQS. "" THEN EXIT( > $ nodename = F$GETSYI ("NODENAME",,id)8 > $ arch_name = f$elem( 0, " ", F$GETSYI("HW_NAME",,id))+ > $ soft_type = F$GETSYI("NODE_SWTYPE",,id)C+ > $ soft_vers = F$GETSYI("NODE_SWVERS",,id)b' > $ hdwe_name = F$GETSYI("HW_NAME",,id)b/ > $ say f$fao("!9AS !AS - !AS !AS !AS (!AS)", -oF > nodename + ":", "''id'", soft_type, arch_name, soft_vers, hdwe_name) > $ GOTO START > $NOT_CLUSTER: 1 > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Not a member of a cluster."+ > $ EXIT > - > Hope wrapping didn't hose it up too much...  > H > Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME keywordE > work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get forb > other than the local node. >  > -- > David J. Dachteraa > dba DJE Systems+ > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. > B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. > H > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 05:51:03 GMTo& From: Jerry Hudgins <jerry@e-farm.com>' Subject: Docs for PMAGB-J frame buffer? * Message-ID: <3A9DE346.74BEDC55@e-farm.com>  B I've recently come into possession of a PMAGB-J TURBOchannel frameD buffer.  Does anyone have a pointer to documentation on this device?, Anyone have any specs or details on its use?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:03:16 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterD Message-ID: <OFB677466D.C12B42D4-ON88256A01.006848D1@foundation.com>  C This isn't a solution, but it helps cut the risk. Regardless of thetG language, when I'm doing a block of some sort I type the open and close ( first, then fill the block. For example:        while ( z != y )l      {      }   or  &      IF F$TRNLOG( "DOOBRIE" ) .NES. P1	      THENa
      ENDIF  I It was a bit hard to get used to initially, but it cuts down on forgottena close bugs considerably.   Shane/          A JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> on 02/27/2001 11:08:01 PMl   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComL cc:e  1 Subject:  Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later1     Rick Cadruvi wrote:$E > it because I don't use it.  When I do need to I always type cast or$ declaree > thingsJ > as (char *).  Anyone who faults C based on the way pointer arithmetic is > doneH > and the excessive type casting it causes will get NO argument from me.  I Whenever I am not sure of what it actually does, I end up writing a smallmK "test.c" program that does the actual operation and I then either use debugm orJ lots of printfs to verify that the compiler generate the right arithmetic.  @ This is the same with bit fields/arithmetic or other constructs.    D What I don't like about DEC-C is that it sometimes forces me to make strangeoG constructs to shut the compiler up even though the "illegal" constructsa would, be much easier to understand.m  I I despise having to typecast. There are times where I will move a pointeru to aJ void and then to a char just to make sure I can do real arithmetic without the  compiler complaining.l    B When working with dynamically allocated memory structures, pointer
 arithmetic and handling is a must.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:21:39 -0800x! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.como0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterD Message-ID: <OFA9E5EA47.9B4E59F8-ON88256A01.00695D60@foundation.com>  F Java's biggest saving grace in my eyes is the way it (ahem) encouragesF programmers to generate code to handle all the errors that a class canG signal. OK, so it can't guarantee that they're handled sensibly, but itaI makes the programmer at least think about it. Damn, but I wish I could doe that in more languages.    Shane           E bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) on 02/28/2001 04:39:58 AMa  & Please respond to bill@cs.scranton.edu   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   1 Subject:  Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than latera    : In article <ZLUm6.1046$CP4.192534@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>,)  "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes: I |> And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose,i buteE |> obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD nox longer |> requiresC |> it for contracts.  B Just as another data point.  We used Ada for our early programmingD courses until last semester.  It is now being phased out in favor ofA Java (and you think C/C++ is bad!!)  The last course using Ada is,D being taught this semester and starting this summer I will no longer) be installing Ada on lab machines at all.r   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:52:48 -0500r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011452480001@user-2ivec5g.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <97jai0$klq$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:o  N > In article <rdeininger-2802010958090001@user-2ive673.dialup.mindspring.com>,7 >  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  > |> aM > |> There are times when GOTO is just what's needed.  The example I see most O > |> often is coding a state machine.  For an eloquent defense of GOTO, look in0F > |> the comp.lang.ada archives for Robert Dewer's posts on the topic. > B > This surprises me.  If Dewer is who I think he is, he was one ofA > Ada's strongest advocates and GOTO is very much contrary to ther+ > paradigm put forward by it's developers. e  F First, I mispelled his name.  Dewar looks better to me at the moment. I Yes, I'm sure it's the same fellow you're thinking of.  Big Ada advocate,r> principal at ACT -- and believer in GOTO at appropriate times.   >  > |> eM > |> Using ":=" for assignment had quite a lot of precident at the time C was L > |> developed.  Starting a new convention was unnecessary.  Way too late to > |> change it now.  > E > Really??  With C and Pascal being pretty much parallel developmentseH > (both starting around 1971 somewhere) I assume oyu must mean somethingD > earlier.  Of course, it could have been worse.  PL/1 used the sameG > symbol "=" for both assignment and comparison.  Maybe you mean Algol?aB > But the use there wasn't particularly clear or unambiguous, if I > remember correctly.?  ) Yes, IIRC, Pascal borrowed it from Algol.     > > |> Though you have supported the use of Ada in a classroom,  > G > Where did I say I supported it's use inthe classroom??  My preference-G > for a first programming language remains Pascal.  After all, that wasaG > the intended use of it's creator.  We're back to that "the right tools > for the job" idea again.  H I meant supported, as in "facilitated the use of", not supported, and in2 "advocated".  Perhaps I misunderstood your role.    O > |>                                                          you're convincing % > |> me you hardly know it yourself. m > I > While I have not done any million line projects with it, I know it well L > enough to program in it when required.  And to help debug others Ada code. >  -J > |>                                 Ada was IN NO WAY intended to fit allE > |> problem spaces.  Two of the big design demands were for embeddedaM > |> programming, and for a language that scales well to very large programs.l > H > Well, I was in data processing in the Military when it was first beingH > developed and we were being told that all DOD systems would have to beG > eventually, rewritten in Ada.  Luckily, that never happened.  DOD had G > every intention of impossing Ada on everyone under their domain.  HowNF > else do you think they justified the millions (billions?) of dollars > wasted on the project??s  G It wasn't money wasted... many projects were successfully completed andaH are still alive using Ada.  It _was_ mandated for a while, but now thereJ are more "language-neutral" requirements in place.  Before Ada, there wereI _many_ DOD languages, and that was a big problem Ada was meant to solve. iD Ada did have problems at first, and the heavy-handed mandate I think% caused a backlash that's still alive.     F > |> Your remarks about "bloated monster" and "not practical for smallL > |> machines" are nonsense.  A number of languages are significantly biggerO > |> than Ada.  And it has been implemented on a number of small systems.  Somec1 > |> of the first compilers _were_ dogs, however.a > K > I guess your concept of a "small system" differs from mine.  The smallestrK > system I have ever seen a validated Ada compiler (and remember, there are,M > no subsets of Ada!!) on was a VAX.  At the time I saw my first Ada compilerbJ > I was doing a lot of work on PDP-11's, Z80 and M68000 microcomputers andK > even a Univac 1100.  I know there was never an Ada compiler for the first + > three and I never saw one for the Univac.e  F Many of those systems were at or near EOL when Ada got up to speed.  IG suspect some of them were Ada targets, but not developement platforms. fG Embedded programming pretty much requires targeting small, almost bare,  hardware systems.e    : > |> Ada _is_ a lot bigger than C, but it does much more.  > F > Actually, it does exactly the same thing.  It just does it differnt.H > One of the most common ada compilers is GNAT which is just a differentE > parser front end on a C compiler.  I guess the biggest question is, B > "Does the language provide enough advantage to warrant the extra- > resources it requires?"  Some of us say no.   O GNAT is NOT an Ada parser stuck on a C compiler.  You have gotten out of touch..  / A few of the things that Ada has, that C lacks:i Support for concurrency (tasks)r Generics Packages ...o  4 Ada is not the language it was 15 or 20 years ago.     >  sB > |>                                                      From theO > |> programmer's point of view, you don't have to learn parts you don't need. e >   > Which is true of any language. > M > |> There is a fairly concise C-like subset (with somewhat fuzzy boundaries)  > ? > No, according to the proponent agency, there are no subsets. s  B I'm not talking about formal subsets, I'm talking about functionalI subsets.  For example, if you don't need concurrency, you can just ignorel the tasking part.   J With a slightly different terminology, Ada 95 does have Annexes, which are? groups of optional extensions for specific problem domains.  An 9 implementor can omit a whole annex, or include all of it.y  J > |> for example.  Of course the compiler implementor has to deal with theM > |> whole language.  Ada is also more specific than C -- the implementor hasn7 > |> much less discretion in how a feature must behave.  > H > Not true, and this is one of my main complaints.  Look up tasking.  ItI > is totally implementor dependant.  Two "parallel" tasks need not run innI > parallel and may in fact run asynchronously under some implementations. F > Which enters into a whole other argument about wether or not taskingI > belongs in a language at all, as opposed to being a function of the OS.a  G The language requirements explicitly called for tasking at the languageoJ level, hopefull to make programs more platform-neutral.  The implementor'sD discretion in this case was necessary to get implementations on manyB platforms.  In practice, you get one or more of the mechanisms theE underlying OS supports.  There are many multi-task problems where therG details of the tasking model don't matter.  Those can be implemented ino* Ada without any platform-specific pragmas.  I On the other hand, Ada does _not_ give the implementor any wiggle room onI4 how to evaluate a multi-part conditional expression.  J A number of things in C are explicitly platform-dependent, i.e. the resultG of a chunk of code is supposed to depend on the platform.  Ada aims the-F other way, but often gives you a way to specify low-level details in aF platform-neutral way when you need to.  It tends to make the dependent part more visible.    N > |> I don't think this is quite the right description of Ada.  It is designedL > |> to let the compiler catch a lot of mistakes, so they never get into theN > |> running program.  This may have a side effect of making programmers a bit* > |> more careful, thus reducing mistakes. > L > Experience has shown that it has quite the opposite effect. Why desk checkK > your code when you can rely on the compiler to do it for you.  The result=L > is sloppier code that is syntactically correct but with some rather unique > logic errors.-  H Not in my (fairly limited) experience, and not according to a lot of big Ada shops.    C Though I think sloppy coding is not sufficiently discouraged in the $ schools these days, in any language.  8 1. It's best not to make the mistake in the first place.  7 2. Next best is to have the compiler catch the mistake.n  2 3. Next best is to detect the mistake at run time.  I 4. Worst is to not detect the mistake at all, and generate wrong results.   D My main claim is that Ada is much better at number 2 than C is.  TheI compiler has much more information at it's fingertips, so this should not)> be too surprising.  It seems to be well confirmed in practice.  F Number 1 is probably largely cultural.  Good programmers are better at" number 1 than are bad programmers.    O > |> > Now I'm confused.  What you say above is in complete agreement with whate< > |> > I have said, as well.  Especially in the case of Ada. > |> HP > |> Well, he can't even spell Ada, so maybe his complaints are second hand? :-) > |> =L > |> The backdoors in Ada aren't obsure or hard to understand.  There was anG > |> effort to make use of backdoors (unchecked deallocation, unchecked L > |> conversion ...) very explicit and obvious to the reader.  And you don'tJ > |> need such things very often in Ada.  Most programs never see them.  IL > |> think they are most often abused by people trying to write C code using= > |> Ada syntax.  That does lead to horrible code in a hurry.O > |>  J > |> It's also not fair to say that more "backdoors" keep getting added to3 > |> Ada.  It has been quite static in this regard.e > |>   > > > This was true of C as well until ANSI got their hands on it. > I > |> Some of the complaints above apply much more to Pascal than to Ada. lM > |> Pascal really was too constrained for many purposes, and had some subtle  > |> back doors. l > K > Yes, this is a prime example of using the wrong tool for the job.  Pascal*I > was created to "teach" algorithms and data structures. Not to implementeK > them in the real world.  It is, of course, interesting to note that after J > seeing this terrible misuse of the language, wirth went back and createdJ > a language specifically to put the ideas he had put forward in Pascal inJ > a practical and usable form.  And thus was Modula born.  And we all knowL > how popular this language became. (he says with tongue planted very firmly > in cheek!) :-) >  tI > |>             Ada is a descendant of Pascal, but it extends Pascal for + > |> useability, and closes some backdoors.t > H > This is one of the biggest things in Ada's favor. (IMHO)  Not only didJ > it keep a lot of this Pascal flavor, it had input from and was developedG > by many people who were firmly planted in earlier Pascal development.  >  > H > |> > This I don't agree with.  In most cases, the actual coding is the smallest? > |> > part of the project. (at least well designed projects)  t > |> o > |> Agreed. > I > I'm glad of this.  One of the things I constantly lament around here is H > how little pre-coding thought goes into most student work and the fact6 > that this is not seen as a problem worth addressing.  1 I still hope I'm not contributing to a flame war.    -- F Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comE   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:00:19 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>Y0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9D58D3.92B3B87A@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:C > Really?  Then why is it I've got tons of Java with massive use of$J > dynamically allocated memory structures working quite well in a language > which does not have pointers?e  M Is Java a compiled language, or a run-time environment ? Doesn't Java executeYK in its own virtual machine with lots of support from the Java engine ? Doesh* this qualify as a true compiled language ?  L Also, if there is no concept of pointers in Java, do they allow you to cheatE and specify pointers to be passed when you call system services etc ?l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:01:03 -0500e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011501030001@user-2ivec5g.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <vgTkciHxgEnV@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > In articleA <rdeininger-2802010128330001@user-2iveaji.dialup.mindspring.com>,r4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > M > > And if you need a nested if-else in both the if part and the else part, ao  > > switch isn't simple anymore. >  > But something like:r >  >         if WINE = REDi >         then  >                 if MOON = FULL >                 then >                     ACTION_1;s >                 else >                     ACTION_2;  >                 end if;- >         elsif SIZE > 500 >         then$ >                 if SEASON = SPRING >                 then >                     ACTION_3;- >                 else >                     ACTION_4;o >                 end if;, >         else >                 if OS = VMS  >                 then >                     ACTION_5;o >                 else >                     ACTION_6;  >                 end if;  >         end if;  >  > Can be deconstructed into: > ' >         if WINE = RED and MOON = FULLt >         then >             ACTION_1;t >         elsif WINE = RED >         then >             ACTION_2;F. >         elsif SIZE > 500 and SEASON = SPRING >         then >             ACTION_3;i >         elsif SIZE > 500 >         then >             ACTION_4;  >         elsif OS = VMS >             ACTION_5;. >         else >             ACTION_6;$ >         end if;s > ; > Remember that at this level it is the job of the compileri: > and not the programmer to perform optimization.  The two= > examples above are quite likely to produce the same machineh5 > code (presuming I made no error in deconstruction)."    J Right.  You can trade "deep" vs. "wide" in a construct like this.  I thinkH I prefer your second one at the moment; elsif's are good, and the secondJ fragment uses more of them.  But this is a horrible contrived example, andD if I saw real code like this I would be tempted to look for a biggerJ reorganization.  I would never choose one over the other based on what the0 compiler would do with them.  That's not my job.  N I see you are one of those "then under if" folks.  I've never understood that. :-)   F But neither example really looks like a C-style switch.  I was arguingI _for_ the block-if construct, not the other way round.  Certainly in Ada,u6 the CASE won't get you as far as the switch will in C.   -- - Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com1   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:19:38 -0500+- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>E0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9D5D59.F09FC122@videotron.ca>   One thing about C:  I I find that I don't entirely trust the C compiler. As a result, when I do L anything where I have any doubts on how the compiler will react, I will test3 the module extensively to ensure it works reliably.   H If someone blindly trusts the compiler, then that person is beggging forK problems in C. But if you don't trust the compiler and test everything, yout* probably end up with more robust programs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:33:29 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later+ Message-ID: <3A9D6097.EDEDADF@videotron.ca>e   Dan Sugalski wrote:lE > It's not a bad language for writing low-level things such as devicelM > drivers, but for higher-level things it a bad choice. I wouldn't even write L > most pieces of an OS or compiler in it if better languages were available,  > though often there isn't one.   E Consider how much higher level applications rely on external servicesiX (especially when you write GUI applications or make extensive use of external routines).  K In that case, the language best suited is the one that interfaces best with- those routines.e  I If those routines were written with C formats for strings etc, then usingfL Pascal ill just make your life harder because you have to constantly convert@ pascal strings into null terminated strings before passing them.  G Similarly, using C to call system services on VMS is somewhat of a pain ( because descriptors are not native to C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:20:57 -0500i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011520580001@user-2ivec5g.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <OFB677466D.C12B42D4-ON88256A01.006848D1@foundation.com>," Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:  E > This isn't a solution, but it helps cut the risk. Regardless of theeI > language, when I'm doing a block of some sort I type the open and closee* > first, then fill the block. For example: >  >      while ( z != y )w >      { >      } >  > or > ( >      IF F$TRNLOG( "DOOBRIE" ) .NES. P1 >      THEN  >      ENDIF > K > It was a bit hard to get used to initially, but it cuts down on forgotten  > close bugs considerably. >   J Well, if LSE was cheap...  This is the sort of thing I would like LSE for,
 if I used it.a   -- T Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:45:19 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9D635C.B1B09110@videotron.ca>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:J > language, when I'm doing a block of some sort I type the open and close=  * > first, then fill the block. For example: > =e   >      while ( z !=3D y )  >      { >      }   I often go one further:.   while ( z !=3D y)l 	=A0{u 	 } /* end of while z !=3D x */l  G Then, as I add code inside the block, the closing curly bracket remainsoJ identified to the while even after lots of code has been added, making it=  muchsJ easier to debug, but also see where a piece of code is in relation to the=   various loops.    J When you go back a year later to change something, it is much easier to f= indo your way in the program.    J I think that in any language, proper use of comments and the language its= elfa1 is more important than the selection of language.c  J One can write good code in C, one can write bad code in C.  I have seen C= OBOLJ where I litterally had to unfold the very thick listing on the floor, spa= nningmJ the whole building (at night), and litterally RUN the program, using blue=  felt J pens to mark the places I had been to. And yes, I was running up and down=  the	 corridor.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:47:41 GMTl= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <009F852E.A14C5C64@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3A9D635C.B1B09110@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:# >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:vK >> language, when I'm doing a block of some sort I type the open and close=  >e+ >> first, then fill the block. For example:r >> = >  >>      while ( z !=3D y )	 >>      {d	 >>      }n >b >I often go one further: >d >while ( z !=3D y) >	=A0{  >	 } /* end of while z !=3D x */ >eH >Then, as I add code inside the block, the closing curly bracket remainsK >identified to the while even after lots of code has been added, making it=c > muchK >easier to debug, but also see where a piece of code is in relation to the=m >t >various loops.  >  >eK >When you go back a year later to change something, it is much easier to f=h >ind >your way in the program.  >a > K >I think that in any language, proper use of comments and the language its=e >elf2 >is more important than the selection of language. >aK >One can write good code in C, one can write bad code in C.  I have seen C=> >OBOL K >where I litterally had to unfold the very thick listing on the floor, spa=l >nningK >the whole building (at night), and litterally RUN the program, using blue=  > feltK >pens to mark the places I had been to. And yes, I was running up and down=  > they
 >corridor.  7 Why is it you can post one message in this thread with:M  * Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitc  & and the next has the Redmond buggered   , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablee  I I really tire of reading quoted-printable shit of late with every freakin.4 message authored and sent using Micro$hit $hitwarez.  G Grrr... I need a Guinness (which, BTW, the Guinness web site is VMS un-t, friendly.  Hey, I drink it I don't view it.) --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn            sO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:26:21 -0500w- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9D7B05.1381D3B8@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:9 > Why is it you can post one message in this thread with:  > , > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  > ' > and the next has the Redmond buggered  > . > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1- > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  > K > I really tire of reading quoted-printable shit of late with every freakins6 > message authored and sent using Micro$hit $hitwarez.  X You should check my headers. You would see this is posted with netscape, on a macintosh.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:01:45 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)i0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <009F8538.FA3695AD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3A9D7B05.1381D3B8@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:m: >> Why is it you can post one message in this thread with: >>  - >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii " >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> m( >> and the next has the Redmond buggered >> f/ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1t. >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> eL >> I really tire of reading quoted-printable shit of late with every freakin7 >> message authored and sent using Micro$hit $hitwarez.a >tY >You should check my headers. You would see this is posted with netscape, on a macintosh.h  H I didn't say it wasn't.  I simply see the quoted-printable buggery everyF time I get something sent from a Micro$hit machine.  Usenet, use text.    t --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.            ,O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.n   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 18:08:32 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <c4I6TOxIXw24@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3A9D58D3.92B3B87A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  O > Is Java a compiled language, or a run-time environment ? Doesn't Java executetM > in its own virtual machine with lots of support from the Java engine ? Does , > this qualify as a true compiled language ?  H Java is a programming language.  Sun has a compiler that produced normal6 object code for their operating system.  VMS does not.  E Two years ago I heard the Sun Chief Science Officer talking about theeH benefits (sic) of Java, and mourning the fact that this sideline featureH of the byte code engine implementation was getting all the publicity andB hiding the glory of the language when used with a normal compiler.  3 I suppose Java looks good if you are coming from C,d and that was his premise.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:10:33 GMTq& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later9 Message-ID: <Jzfn6.381$m51.230372@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>   F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message   > > |> > It takes no longersJ > > |> > for an experienced C programmer to code a task in C than it would take an L > > |> > experienced Ada programmer to do it in Ada.  And believe it or not,
 regardlessJ > > |> > of the language used, programmers of the same level of experience	 will make L > > |> > an equivalent number of mistakes.  It isn't the language that makes the  > > |> > mistakes. >oL > I don't think the issue is the number of mistakes made.  I think it is theK > number of mistakes made that are not caught at compile-time.  That is therL > second-cheapest place to catch errors (the cheapest being design-time, but5 > of course the truly incompetent skip that step :-).i >yI I mostly agree.  Actually, I think the second cheapest and most importanth stepK in coding is to do a thorough code review after coding and before the first  compile.A Maybe it is just my brain going dead once in awhile, but I find In significanltly reducenL the amount of time necessary to debug my programs if I do this step.  I just end up" catching 99% of the bugs this way.  G I thoroughly agree that C is not as good as other languages like Ada inu catching coding mistakes.   rick...i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:52:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9D9D22.FEF492CA@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:J > I didn't say it wasn't.  I simply see the quoted-printable buggery everyH > time I get something sent from a Micro$hit machine.  Usenet, use text.    G quoted printable allow for accented and other special chracters. I haveeK changed my settings to send raw 8 bit characters which may or may not work."  M I would have thought that quoted-printable would have been implememted by all  news readers by now.  K You'll note that the content-type is still text/plain  which is what is thew expected encoding on news.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:46:14 +0000r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>l0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DA9E6.D7CFB4B5@infopuls.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > q > In article <eYAawcfEii1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:hf > >In article <ZLUm6.1046$CP4.192534@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:O > >> And I thought ADA was dead.  Silly me.  Not a language I would choose, butdN > >> obviously some people must like it.  I find it telling that DOD no longer
 > >> requiresc > >> it for contracts. > > . > >ADA is the Americans with Disabilities Act.* > >ADA is the American Dental Association.. > >ADA is the Americans for Democratic Action. > >and probably a few more.  >  > American Diabetes Associationt > ! > >Ada is a programming language.tO > >Ada was the given name of Lady Lovelace, who programmed for Charles Babbage.t# > >Ada is a town in the US Midwest.D > >gH > >Indeed, forcing a specific language on products who do not want it isF > >counter productive.  These days Ada is used in the new software forG > >the New York City subway, the Boeing 777 avionics, multiple European3E > >rail and air traffic control projects, and yes, military projects.h > >iD > >       http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.html > J > I, for one, spent the years from the introduction of VAX/VMS through theI > release of OpenVMS VAX and Alpha V6.1 working for the DoD and, with thevK > exception of a short couple of months when I worked on the Mars Observer,iK > was never *required* to use Ada.  The folks at GE decided, because they'doK > wanted to learn Ada, to use it for development on the MO.  I have come a-s> > cross Ada in more NON-military uses than I have in military. > J > You can shoot yourself in the foot with any language you use but, unlikeI > C and its bastard relatives, Ada doesn't load the gun and help you aim.h >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   May I conclude that you used Ada deliberately, i.e. without beeing forced because it wasn't *required*. If I misinterpreted you statement would you like to reveal what PLs are your favourites wrt technically quality and experience/familiarity?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:39:42 +0000W) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DA85E.36613E83@infopuls.com>   Rick Cadruvi wrote:  > 8 > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3A9C2B88.8032D829@infopuls.com...= > > I don't think it is a good idea to come up with a list of < > > requirements and matching PLs because this will lead theA > > discussion quickly to certain aspects of these PLs instead of A > > talking about the big picture which is from my point of view:IB > > can it be possible that something created in the early days ofD > > our quick evolving area is still the best tool around?? Is C the; > > wheel of PL science and practice? Is flying impossible?  > C > I disagree.  You stated that using C/C++ was stupid (or something J > to that affect) and that you couldn't write good code in it.  Therefore.C > naming other languages and their appropriate use is necessary for5D > the discussion.  Since you won't suggest alternatives, you clearly> > demonstrate an anti C/C++ bias that must be more emotionallyA > based than fact based.  I haven't even heard your objections toh > C/C++ except their age.n   Not quite accurate. The age combined with the fact that we are in a business which is young compared to other professions like machine construction or architecture let me think that using this stone age tool couldn't be the best.t] The objections against C and C++ are in general different although some of them pertain both.    Before we dive into that discussion I would like to ask you what are the properties/qualities/attributes a good PL should have or should avoid.e   > ) > Believe me, I am NOT a defender of C.  o   Unfortunately ;-)e  E >                                        There are many things I HATEf > about C.  Here's 4 of them:I > G >         1. Case Sensitivity.  I am use to it, but I think it is a BIG-I >            problem.  tmp, TMP, Tmp, tMp, tmP, TMp, tMP should NOT refera! >            to different things.A  gI like it and I don't like Pascal and Eiffel for the lack of case sensitivity. But this is mainly a matter of style, taste and cultural background. If you use a scripture which requires often to use uppercase letters depending of the semantics and sometimes even with different meaning if both ways are possible you will more likely vote for case sensitivity.o  J >         2. SWITCH/CASE doesn't auto-break.  I NEVER depend on being ableI >            to fall through to the next CASE in a SWITCH statement.  ThenI >            default should be BREAK and allow specifying CONTINUE if youl< >            want to drop through.  THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!  g You are perfectly right. This is one of the stupidest things preserved in Java from the C/C++ heritage.-  D >         3. BREAK.  Break should be allowed from ALL Begin/End ({})H >            constructs (including IF ELSE).  You should also be able toG >            BREAK # where # is the number of Begin/End blocks you wanta >            to break out of.l  I strongly disagree - at least with the second and third proposal, because this will inadvertantly lead to mistakes which are easy to overlook especially in other people's sources if the code is re-aranged and equipped with more nesting levels or other control sequences.v  G >         4. Use of "==" for compares.  It's WAY too easy to put in "="aH >            instead.  In fact, I usually do a specialized search of ALLJ >            my code before the first compile just to try and catch these.  g You are perfectly right. This is one of the stupidest things preserved in Java from the C/C++ heritage.u  I > However, C is currently one of the most practical development languageslH > because you have a large pool of people who know it and can be broughtH > in to a project to work on it.  This is VERY important in commerciallyP > viable software.  Also, it is portable if the programmer isn't too careless.  N > You always have to assume your code will need to run on another platform/OS.   I don't agree. Firstly a good programmer can learn a good PL in a few days. I don't discuss the library question because this is a no issue (*all* good companies I know of wrote their own libraries and forbid the programmers to directly use the so called standard libraries because of bugs, not portable behaviour or missing functionality - a C library is something like God: a term which pretends that the denoted thing exists or has a specific quality but in fact doesn't exist or doesn't provide what it prete   Secondly, portability is a no issue. If you strive for portability you will have to solve a lot and very different problems than using a/the C/C++ library.c  J > My ideal language would probably be mostly a combination of BLISS and C.I > However, I do mostly tools and System programming.  Therefore, I am not-M > probably the best sample case for what makes a good programming language.  oL > However, I have done just about every kind of programming from Accounting 7 > packages, to OS code to embedded systems to realtime.h   Seems you a perfect test sample. I have to admit that I don't know BLISS a bit although I read some awkward comments in this NG related to the syntax. Not quite motivating. But I honor it as a main implementation language of VMS - it can't be that bad ;-)e  I > One thing I don't want is a language to get in the way.  A lot of newer N > languages are designed to prevent programmers for doing things to keep them P > from making mistakes. I understand this logic, but what you have is an effort O > to over compensate because programmers were never taught to program well and g > they write BAD code.  WWhile I partly agree I think it's more important what a language offers than what it prevents. PL design is always a compromise between power and complexity. Preventing from "stupid" mistakes or not to detect mistakes like the automatic type conversions in C++ is a good feature. Java is a better compromise if we only look at the "front end".n  P > In order for a language to be useable, they invariably provide some "backdoor"M > that allows you to do the things you really want to do.  As a result, those I > "backdoors" get abused.  Along comes someone else who says they have to1L > do something new that removes that "backdoor".  As more code is written inP > the new language, it becomes clear that new "backdoors" have to be implementedI > because the language is preventing complex things from being done or at P > least is making them so difficult that they take too long.  This was always myT > problem with ADA.  Time to implement a project is VERY important.  It's one of the= > BAD things with C/C++ in terms of applications development.   While I completely follow your thread of thoughts I don't understand the last three sentences. What I understood is that you regard Ada as a PL which has too many safety belts slowing down development. But you stated that this is also a "BAD" thing with C/C++. From the previous sections and from my knowledge preventing the programmer from doing stupid things is *not* a major strength of C/C++.  Basically I disagree. Preventing the programmer from doing bad things in Ada didn't prevent the good programmer from beeing very fast. Ada offers a lot of powerful features which really speeds up implementation. This is a major lack of C - no powerful features.O  N > Progrmaming Languages are just part of the tool set programmers use to solveI > problems.  What we really do is we solve problems.  The code writing isaF > merely a clerical function through which we express those solutions.   Agreed.l  G > Sure we should use better tools when they are there.  However, bettergK > programming languages will NEVER be a substitute for writing GOOD code.  hI > The real problem we need to solve is making sure programmers learn how n# > to write code well to start with.h   Agreed.o  - > That is NOT being taught in Universities.  =  9 Disagreed. Depends on the university or technical school.   F >                                            My own son is majoring inI > computer engineering and his professors DON'T have a clue how to write iJ > GOOD code.  I am teaching him that and he is juggling writing GOOD code $ > with the CRAP the professors want.  # Teach me! What is GOOD code/source?1  T > Hopefully he will learn from both and get the grades he wants and still be able to] > write GOOD code when he finally goes to work for someone.  However, his manager there won't0U > have a clue either and will insist he write BAD code because he doesn't know how to/4 > write GOOD code and can't understand the benefits.  K > How many times do you still hear programmers justify the requirement that K > all routines exit at the bottom, or insist it is more efficient to write hL > fewer large routines than many small routines to save a few routine calls.N > As long as this ignorance persists, all the GREAT new programming languages  > won't solve the problem.  2I never heard this. But I read that the automatic tools for assessing source quality have miserably failed and AFAIK they aren't around anymore. I personally think that we are still in a transition phase from art to science and writing good programs needs creativity and knowledge which cannot be measured.  L > When I even think about using an ELSE statement, I force myself to justify > it's use. L > Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally do nested > IF then ELSEs.  " They do right. Why shouldn't they?  J > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willL > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that prevent usM > from doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY  > required.x >  > just my opinions,d >  > Rick Cadruvi...:   We shouldn't look at bad programmers or bad programming style. The best PL is a PL which allows the high quality programmer to write high quality programms in shortest time.a   What is good program source?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:56:09 +0000d) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DAC39.20BF8812@infopuls.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > e > In article <cCYm6.1296$CP4.299029@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  >  > > : > > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message* > > news:3A9C2B88.8032D829@infopuls.com...> > >> I don't think it is a good idea to come up with a list of= > >> requirements and matching PLs because this will lead theoB > >> discussion quickly to certain aspects of these PLs instead ofB > >> talking about the big picture which is from my point of view:C > >> can it be possible that something created in the early days ofdE > >> our quick evolving area is still the best tool around?? Is C theo< > >> wheel of PL science and practice? Is flying impossible? > > E > > I disagree.  You stated that using C/C++ was stupid (or something L > > to that affect) and that you couldn't write good code in it.  Therefore.E > > naming other languages and their appropriate use is necessary foreF > > the discussion.  Since you won't suggest alternatives, you clearly@ > > demonstrate an anti C/C++ bias that must be more emotionallyC > > based than fact based.  I haven't even heard your objections tog > > C/C++ except their age.c > >eG > > Believe me, I am NOT a defender of C.  There are many things I HATEh > > about C.  Here's 4 of them:- > >-I > >         1. Case Sensitivity.  I am use to it, but I think it is a BIGrK > >            problem.  tmp, TMP, Tmp, tMp, tmP, TMp, tMP should NOT referf# > >            to different things.n > > L > >         2. SWITCH/CASE doesn't auto-break.  I NEVER depend on being ableK > >            to fall through to the next CASE in a SWITCH statement.  TheaK > >            default should be BREAK and allow specifying CONTINUE if you > > >            want to drop through.  THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!! > >aF > >         3. BREAK.  Break should be allowed from ALL Begin/End ({})J > >            constructs (including IF ELSE).  You should also be able toI > >            BREAK # where # is the number of Begin/End blocks you wante > >            to break out of.b > > I > >         4. Use of "==" for compares.  It's WAY too easy to put in "="cJ > >            instead.  In fact, I usually do a specialized search of ALLL > >            my code before the first compile just to try and catch these. > J > That is an interesting list, because it totally omits the most importantI > defect the Ada community sees in C -- pointer arithmetic.  For those of K > us with many years of Bliss experience, pointer arithmetic must seem likenJ > it does to the average C-only programmer ... the only way to handle someJ > programs.  But once one has a suitable amount of experience with Ada (orH > some other language without pointer arithmetic) it is obvious that the; > use of pointer arithmetic is a significant vulnerability.2  y I agree completely. But I admit that there are rare cases where pointer arithmetic may offer a simpler to write solution.   K > > However, C is currently one of the most practical development languages J > > because you have a large pool of people who know it and can be broughtJ > > in to a project to work on it.  This is VERY important in commercially > > viable software. > J > I would not want to employ someone who knew only one language, and afterI > learning a couple adding one more should not be difficult.  I have donetH > some work on an old PL/I program lately, and although I am no expert IG > think my defect rate is acceptable.  Picking up a new language is noti > that difficult.    Completely agreed. Knowing different PLs is even statistically more important than a lot years of experience (Ed Yourdan in "Decline and Fall of the American Programmer").t   > J > > Also, it is portable if the programmer isn't too careless.  You alwaysE > > have to assume your code will need to run on another platform/OS.p > $ > Certainly Ada is just as portable.  
 True also.  L > > My ideal language would probably be mostly a combination of BLISS and C.K > > However, I do mostly tools and System programming.  Therefore, I am not M > > probably the best sample case for what makes a good programming language.  > J > While the VMS device driver environment is not suitable for Ada, that isL > mainly the result of the way that data structure definitions are provided.K > About the only aspect of VMS device drivers I can think of that could not K > theoretically be done in a safe language would be a driver for a physicaliL > device on a VAX, to that @!#@$#!%$$#$% wait-for-interrupt-and-keep-channelI > linkage (at least "linkage" is what they would call it if they ever had % > bothered to support it from Bliss).o > K > > One thing I don't want is a language to get in the way.  A lot of neweriK > > languages are designed to prevent programmers for doing things to keep  J > > them from making mistakes. I understand this logic, but what you have J > > is an effort to over compensate because programmers were never taught , > > to program well and they write BAD code. > >rG > > In order for a language to be useable, they invariably provide someAH > > "backdoor" that allows you to do the things you really want to do.  I > > As a result, those "backdoors" get abused.  Along comes someone else  J > > who says they have to do something new that removes that "backdoor".  K > > As more code is written in the new language, it becomes clear that new -J > > "backdoors" have to be implemented because the language is preventing K > > complex things from being done or at least is making them so difficult aB > > that they take too long.  This was always my problem with ADA. > E > Presuming you mean Ada :-), please be more specific.  Of course AdaiJ > requires strict definitions of data structures, and VMS does not provide > them, that is a given. > M > > How many times do you still hear programmers justify the requirement that M > > all routines exit at the bottom, or insist it is more efficient to write vP > > fewer large routines than many small routines to save a few routine calls.  P > > As long as this ignorance persists, all the GREAT new programming languages  > > won't solve the problem. > F > One problem C programmers seem to have more than programmers of safeE > languages is that as the programmer they are in charge of low-levelcD > optimization.  Certainly they must deal with how many reads of theE > disk are performed (efficient use of cache), but they do _not_ neednC > to be concerned with the performance difference between an IF andyF > a CASE statement (probably not proper C terminology) as the compilerF > will sort that out and invalidate any attempted optimizations on the > part of the programmer.y > M > > When I even thing about using a ELSE statement, I force myself to justify 
 > > it's use.eN > > Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally do nested > > IF then ELSEs. >  > But I think that is fine:  >  >         if WINE = REDo >         then >             .... >         elsif SIZE > 500 >         then >             .... >         elsif AGE /= 17w >         then >             .... >         else >             .... >         end if;e >   V Agreed. Good example BTW because it can't be implemented with a CASE/Switch statement.  L > > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willN > > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that prevent usO > > from doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLYe
 > > required.t > ; > But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:12:33 +0000s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DB011.BD532232@infopuls.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3A9B023A.CBD414A5@infopuls.com... >  > ...  > ? > > What do you mean with "it's often in a kernel there usuallyIC > > aren't all that many alternatives"? Are you writing code for anO > > OS kernel? > 3 > Yes - e.g., drivers and installable file systems.e > / >  Why isn't there any alternative and to what?B   May I insist? I don't see any problem in using any PL which produces binary compatible code for writing this sort of code. Obviously you can't use a runtime system specificy to that language or an interpreter which e.g. excludes Smalltalk.r   > >yA > > Very good point: the language doesn't help anyone from makingt? > > certain mistakes or finding certain improvments. But a gooduA > > language supports you in accomplishing what you want to do inu% > > shorter time with better quality.  > J > Quality is not, as I said, something I have difficulty achieving.  And IJ > find having to think, in detail, about what I'm doing contributes to theD > quality of the result in ways other than just having correct code.  [ Perhaps it's then time? Please re-read my statement. Quality and time are normally related.   + > > This is not a point in favour of C/C++.  > >rB > > Talking about competence: There isn't any problem which cannot< > > be solved better in a language different from C and C++. > F > How about the problem that the rest of the kernel is written in thatJ > language and maintained by people primarily familiar with that language?J > Until you can change that, that's a major C/C++ advantage in *practice*,M > regardless of whether you believe that *if* that kernel had been written in & > another language it would be better.   Depends on two factors: how entangled is your work and how easy is it to use a C/C++ API (or more precise the Kernel Module Interfaces) from the other language.  N > Unlike academics, many of us have to deal with things as they are, not as weL > might wish they were.  It gives one a somewhat different slant on the art:N > one is grateful for things that work, even if they're less than elegant, andJ > appreciates tools that, while they may be dangerous, are also capable ofC > doing whatever job needs to be done if placed in competent hands.e   You have a point.l  G > A language is just a tool.  If it can be used effectively, it doesn'tiN > deserve to be called crap, even if some other language might be safer and/orI > more elegant and/or easier to use.  When better languages have replacedrL > C/C++ to the extent that C/C++ have replaced assembler, then it *would* beK > reasonable to call C/C++ 'verging on obsolete' - or at least too esotericdI > for common use.  Until that time, C/C++ contribute significantly to thelL > industry, and form one cornerstone of the open-source effort you appear to
 > appreciate.n >  > - bill   I regret that most open source projects are using these languages even if there is no need similar to what you described. We should keep two things apart: what we have to do and the quality of the tool. We should be free enough to admit that *although* a lot of useful SW is implemented in C/C++ the languages are *pure* crap. C because it's far behind compared to what is possible today. C++ because it's behind, bloated and undesigned. If you master C++ you are an exception. But the wide spread use of C++ ind  \ We see an enormous mis-ratio between suitable use (perhaps 1%) and actual use (perhaps 20%).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:18:23 +0000m) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DB16F.F54BA3E0@infopuls.com>   Rick Cadruvi wrote:  > L > > That is an interesting list, because it totally omits the most importantK > > defect the Ada community sees in C -- pointer arithmetic.  For those ofuM > > us with many years of Bliss experience, pointer arithmetic must seem like L > > it does to the average C-only programmer ... the only way to handle someL > > programs.  But once one has a suitable amount of experience with Ada (orJ > > some other language without pointer arithmetic) it is obvious that the= > > use of pointer arithmetic is a significant vulnerability.t > I > I do agree that pointer arithmetic in C is particularly bad.  I guess I  > forgot aboutM > it because I don't use it.  When I do need to I always type cast or declarer > thingsJ > as (char *).  Anyone who faults C based on the way pointer arithmetic is > doneH > and the excessive type casting it causes will get NO argument from me.   I'm in.i  K > As far as pointer arithmetic being problematic, I agree it can be, but it K > can also be very powerful.  Not having to program around a problem makes gC > code more straightforward and therefore less likely to have bugs.l  a You seem to be an exception. And if you use PA in rare cases I believe these cases are justified.n  L > > While the VMS device driver environment is not suitable for Ada, that isN > > mainly the result of the way that data structure definitions are provided.M > > About the only aspect of VMS device drivers I can think of that could notsM > > theoretically be done in a safe language would be a driver for a physicaltN > > device on a VAX, to that @!#@$#!%$$#$% wait-for-interrupt-and-keep-channelK > > linkage (at least "linkage" is what they would call it if they ever hada& > > bothered to support it from Bliss. > >  >   > I would say that this is true. > H > > > When I even thing about using a ELSE statement, I force myself to  > > > justify it's use.eI > > > Most programmers think using ELSEs is really great and liberally do  > > > nested IF then ELSEs.u > >r > > But I think that is fine:s > >s > > if WINE = REDW > > then > >     .... > > elsif SIZE > 500 > > then > >     .... > > elsif AGE /= 17t > > then > >     .... > > else > >     .... > > end if;e > ; > Your example is fine.  I am talking about something like:g >  > if ()n
 >   {if ()	 >       {b	 >       }u	 >    elsei	 >       {e
 >          ifl >             {t >              } >          elsel >             {w >              }	 >       }h >    } > else > D > Its the extra nesting that gets problematic.  Your example doesn't  > display that type of behavior.  ] I don't see any problem. If this is a mapping of the decision flow why not write it that way?g  8 > Even still, I would probably use other constructs like' > a switch case statement or something.j  V Switch can only be used directly if you base your decision on the very same attribute.  N > > > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willM > > > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that preventeN > > > us from doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are  > > > REALLY required. > >'= > > But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.f > M > Can we at least agree that if programmers were taught to write good code in N > the first place then a lot of the problems some languages try to solve would > be less of an issue? >  > Rick Cadruvi...   M We can, but this doesn't help us without a definition of what is good source?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:25:59 +0000s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>s0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DB337.6F595A3C@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:a > B > In article <97hvro$hj4@freepress.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" > <rick@rdperf.com> wrote: >  > > >m > > > But I think that is fine:b > > >n > > > if WINE = REDI
 > > > then > > >     .... > > > elsif SIZE > 500
 > > > then > > >     .... > > > elsif AGE /= 17l
 > > > then > > >     ....
 > > > else > > >     ....
 > > > end if;  > >c= > > Your example is fine.  I am talking about something like:  > > 	 > > if ()a > >   {if () > >       {s > >       }o > >    elser > >       {r > >          ife > >             {e > >              } > >          else  > >             {u > >              } > >       }u > >    } > > else > >oF > > Its the extra nesting that gets problematic.  Your example doesn't" > > display that type of behavior. > J > Well, the C if is particularly weak, and brackets for statement groupingL > are error-prone.  The Ada if is more robust and expressive.  In Ada, smallE > syntax errors are easier for the compiler to isolate and flag.  Thee= > "elsif" construct reduces nesting depth in many situations.. > K > The if statement was one of the many points where the Ada designers trieds8 > to correct syntactic blunders from previous languages. > F > "elsif" is an interesting example.  "else if" and "elsif" mean quiteL > different things (the former starts another level of nesting).  They couldJ > have chosen "elseif" instead of "elsif", since blanks are significant inI > Ada.  But that would have been hell on all the Fortran programmers, who K > can't tell the difference between ELSEIF and ELSE IF.  In Ada, where linecL > breaks are NOT significant, omitting the space might have been correct, orG > and error, but the compiler would not know which until the end of theLL > whole block-if construct.  The strangely-spelled "elsif" localizes what is7 > a common typo for folks used to some other languages.  > : > > Even still, I would probably use other constructs like) > > a switch case statement or something.o > G > I'd tend to agree with you in C, where the if is feeble.  In Ada, thetE > if-elsif-else construct is the right one in most cases.  In Larry's G > example, where the IF involves 3 different variables (WINE, SIZE, andb > AGE), CASE won't work. > K > And if you need a nested if-else in both the if part and the else part, a  > switch isn't simple anymore. > P > > > > Teach programmers to write code well, and new progrmaming languages willO > > > > evolve that help us solve the problems better and not ones that preventO > > us > > > > fromN > > > > doing things we shouldn't do in the first place unless they are REALLY > > > > required.e > > >e? > > > But we seem to disagree on what constitutes well-written.t > >.O > > Can we at least agree that if programmers were taught to write good code inoP > > the first place then a lot of the problems some languages try to solve would > > be less  > > of an issue? > H > Yes, I'll agree with that any time.  It's a problem that won't go awayD > anytime soon. I think it's getting worse.  (That must be a sign of > oldness.)/ > B > There have been some fairly unbiased side-by-side comparisons ofG > productivity with C vs. Ada, at various programmer skill levels.  Ada L > comes out ahead, usually by a large margin.  It seems to take a bit longer( > to write, but much less time to debug. > I > In the modern world, where bugs don't matter, Ada is at a disadvantage.  >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comn  W I know of a long term comparison in practice where Ada came out at least twice as good.    I don't understand what you mean with "bit longer to write, but much less time to debug" because first level testing/debugging is part of writing. Otherwise I could use a language which is almost insensitive to what I feed into the compiler/interpreter.s   I know several people who use Pascal or C. If can compile a Pascal program you have done 50% of your work. If you can compile your C program you have done 20% of your work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:46:17 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DB7F8.F3208083@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:l >  > re: switch / case: > O > I have had occasions where I did make use of the lack of automatic "break" atr > the end of a case statement. >  > Think of a dishwasher: >  > switch(wash_type)  > {L >         case heavy_duty:6 >                                         fill_tank();S >                                         wash(5 minutes, no_soap, no_rinse_agent);i7 >                                         empty_tank();n >         case very_dirty:6 >                                         fill_tank();S >                                         wash(5 minutes, no_soap, no_rinse_agent);a7 >                                         empty_tank();h >         case regular:e6 >                                         fill_tank();Q >                                         wash(10 minutes, soap, no_rinse_agent);,7 >                                         empty_tank();a >  >         case rinse:s6 >                                         fill_tank();Q >                                         wash(10 minutes, no_soap, rinse_agent); 7 >                                         empty_tank();t< >                                         dryer(15 minutes);0 >                                         break; >  >         case rinse_only:6 >                                         fill_tank();S >                                         wash(5 minutes, no soap, no rinse agent);s7 >                                         empty_tank(); 0 >                                         break; >  >         case dish_warmer:e; >                                         dryer(5 minutes); 0 >                                         break; > P > So, in the case of a heavy_duty wash, it will fall down all the way to the end > of the rinse and then stop.m   CLASS Dishwasher;    CONSTANT   soap = TRUE; no_soap = FALSE;.-   rinse_agent = TRUE; no_rinse_agent = FALSE;l   METHOD fill_tank();    METHOD empty_tank(); t  ? METHOD wash(min: Minutes; soap: BOOLEAN; rinse_agent: BOOLEAN);r   METHOD rinse();oR BEGIN fill_tank(); wash(10, no_soap, rinse_agent); empty_tank(); dryer(15 minutes)
 END rinse;   METHOD regular();.< BEGIN fill_tank(); wash(10, spoap, no_rinse_agent); rinse(); END regular;   METHOD very_dirty();N BEGIN fill_tank(); wash(5, no_spoap, no_rinse_agent); empty_tank(); regular(); END very_dirty;t   METHOD heavy_duty(); dQ BEGIN fill_tank(); wash(5, no_spoap, no_rinse_agent); empty_tank(); very_dirty();  END heavy_duty;e   METHOD rinse_only();A BEGIN fill_tank(); wash(5, no soap, no rinse agent); empty_tank()  END rinse_only;M   METHOD dish_warmer();m BEGIN dryer(5) END dish_warmer;   END Dishwasher;l  O Exercise 1: Introduce a seventh mode of operation called "Machine cleaning" ...oj Exercise 2: Change *only* regular() in that it washes 12 minutes. The other mode should operate as before.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:47:55 +0000e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>h0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DB85B.5B8D9B84@infopuls.com>   JF Mezei wrote:p >  > Rick Cadruvi wrote:eO > > it because I don't use it.  When I do need to I always type cast or declaret
 > > thingsL > > as (char *).  Anyone who faults C based on the way pointer arithmetic is > > doneJ > > and the excessive type casting it causes will get NO argument from me. > K > Whenever I am not sure of what it actually does, I end up writing a small P > "test.c" program that does the actual operation and I then either use debug orL > lots of printfs to verify that the compiler generate the right arithmetic. > B > This is the same with bit fields/arithmetic or other constructs. > N > What I don't like about DEC-C is that it sometimes forces me to make strangeO > constructs to shut the compiler up even though the "illegal" constructs would  > be much easier to understand.  > P > I despise having to typecast. There are times where I will move a pointer to aP > void and then to a char just to make sure I can do real arithmetic without the > compiler complaining.  > O > When working with dynamically allocated memory structures, pointer arithmetic  > and handling is a must.u   *Only* in C/C++.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 03:00:54 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DBB66.5AAF39B4@infopuls.com>   Dan Sugalski wrote:a > 4 > At 12:22 AM 2/28/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:C > >I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impressiontC > >that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structures B > >and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.A > >To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures iseA > >in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easy C > >way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how it $ > >is built up. Do I miss something? > J > Apparently, yes. It's dead-simple to build up complex data structures inJ > perl, and generally simpler to extend them at runtime than in most other > languages. > 7 > >VMS has DCL which is better than any UNIX shell. Fors, > >string processing I always prefer DECTPU. > L > DCL's generally nicer than most Unix shells for running command proceduresK > (though it has a number of really annoying limits at this point), but theeJ > newer Unix shells are, by and large, more pleasant to use interactively. > M > Whether TPU or perl is better for string processing is a matter of personalsK > preference. Neither are particularly intuitive to folks not familiar withiB > them. TECO beats them both hands-down for brain pain, though. :) > - >                                         Danh > K > --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------l4 > Dan Sugalski                          even samuraiA > dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even = >                                       teddy bears get drunk   T With extending I meant statically extending them because of additional requirements.   And about understanding complex data structures: How do you find out what type a certain hash element has if you have deeply nested hashes and/or arrays (lists of lists)?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 03:33:07 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DC2F3.E74DA5E4@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > < > In article <cCYm6.1296$CP4.299029@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>,+ >  "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:e   [SNIP]   > |>J > |>         4. Use of "==" for compares.  It's WAY too easy to put in "="K > |>            instead.  In fact, I usually do a specialized search of ALLlM > |>            my code before the first compile just to try and catch these.d > E > Well, you need two symbols for "equals", comparison and assignment. D > That is what the "=" means.   Anything else would be non-intuitve.D > Question:  What does ":" have to do with equality??  And yes, when  Y ":" has nothing to do with equality - also in Pascal ":" has nothing to do with equality.n a := 5 is an assignment.  F > we used to use Pascal as our beginning language here one of the mostE > common coding errors was leaving out those pesky ":".  Using double   g Using Pascal as your beginning language would not lead to this mistake because you learned it that way.a  B > "=" for comparison is very intuitve when you consider that everyD > other comparison that involves equality consists of a digraph with* > at least one "=". (ie. ">=", "<=", "!=")   For every educated person this is completely counter intuitive because you never use two characters for comparison operators if you write them by hand e.g. <, =, >, <_ (as one character, or <= as one) a.s.o.c   >  > |>M > |> My ideal language would probably be mostly a combination of BLISS and C.m > H > There is no such thing as "the ideal language".  Ada was an attempt toN > create (by committee no less!) a language that could be used for everything.J > The result is a bloated monster that requires so much in  resources thatJ > it was never practical for small machines (and even some large ones likeJ > PDP-11's).  Most languages were created to fill a discovered need at theL > time of their creation.  A big part of Systems Analysis is identifying theM > problem accurately and then picking the right tool for the job.  Everythingt? > is not a nail so you need more in your toolbox than a hammer.o  j Unfortunately there are some stone aged tools around which don't make any sense in a world of micro chips.   [SNIP]  L > This I don't agree with.  In most cases, the actual coding is the smallestL > part of the project. (at least well designed projects)  It takes no longerK > for an experienced C programmer to code a task in C than it would take annP > experienced Ada programmer to do it in Ada.  And believe it or not, regardlessM > of the language used, programmers of the same level of experience will make I > an equivalent number of mistakes.  It isn't the language that makes the  > mistakes.h  y You are completely wrong according to practice and statistics. Read the material available in the Web e.g. from Rational.t  Q > |> Progrmaming Languages are just part of the tool set programmers use to solverL > |> problems.  What we really do is we solve problems.  The code writing is > |> merelylB > |> a clerical function through which we express those solutions. >  > True.c >  > All the best.  >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 03:40:08 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DC498.63FBE87A@infopuls.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:l   [SNIP]  @ > Ada _is_ a lot bigger than C, but it does much more.  From theK > programmer's point of view, you don't have to learn parts you don't need. J > There is a fairly concise C-like subset (with somewhat fuzzy boundaries)G > for example.  Of course the compiler implementor has to deal with the J > whole language.  Ada is also more specific than C -- the implementor has4 > much less discretion in how a feature must behave.  0 Could comment about size of Ada compared to C++?   [SNIP]  L > If you spend time reading the Ada literature (or Eiffel, probably others),K > you will find that this has been measured, and refuted.  C really is more F > error prone.  Briefly, you are probably right about speed of initial% > coding.  But not about error rates.x   True.n   > F > Don't really want to start a language war. I hope it's not too late. >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comd   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:03:25 -0500u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9DE628.55650163@videotron.ca>   Christof Brass wrote:c > For every educated person this is completely counter intuitive because you never use two characters for comparison operators if you write them by hand e.g. <, =, >, <_ (as one character, or <= as one) a.s.o.   C I showed my 9 year old nephew how to write a simple program (in DCLg nonetheless !).i  H His biggest problem was undestanding why "*" was used for multiplication instead of "x".o  H So the arguments as to what is more "natural" between := and == and = isN rather moot in my opinion. You learn how a language works and use it that way.M My nephew made me realise just how "unnatural" the "*" is, yet, I have yet to-& hear someone here complain about that.  I We get used to a certain syntax in a certain context. Just as DCL makes a: difference between = and ==.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 00:52:53 -0500o2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0103010052540001@user-2ivec78.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3A9DC498.63FBE87A@infopuls.com>, Christof Brassn <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:    2 > Could comment about size of Ada compared to C++?  I My impression is that C++ is "bigger", especially after the last round oruG two of additions.  But it is difficult to specify a reasonable measure.   E Should we include the standard libraries in addition to the language?   @ C++ loses much of C's claim to compactness and simplicity, IMHO.   -- } Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:37:18 GMTi+ From: "Nikita V. Belenki" <public@kits.net> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later8 Message-ID: <y6mn6.325$Up.13322@sea-read.news.verio.net>  6 "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3A9DB85B.5B8D9B84@infopuls.com...  F > > When working with dynamically allocated memory structures, pointer
 arithmetic > > and handling is a must.p > *Only* in C/C++.  K *Everywhere* on the current hardware. If *you* are writing the library that K does memory management and hides pointer arithmetic from the other parties.f   Kit.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 03:11:48 +0000e) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> / Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?e, Message-ID: <3A9DBDF4.A3D41E43@infopuls.com>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > 5 > "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:s > 4 > > I think Tru64, like VMS is Compaq's own product. > P > Coming as it does from OSF/1 (which was its (close to) original name), I thinkO > the OSF is still collecting a license fee for every copy sold. Motif as well,  > I presume. > 
 >         Jane  ` If Motif still costs something although it is open source now VMS will be loaded with that also.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 23:14:23 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)c/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? 3 Message-ID: <LiaHbpqS+h2s@eisner.encompasserve.org>(  X In article <3A9DBDF4.A3D41E43@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: >>  6 >> "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes: >> r5 >> > I think Tru64, like VMS is Compaq's own product.l >>  Q >> Coming as it does from OSF/1 (which was its (close to) original name), I thinksP >> the OSF is still collecting a license fee for every copy sold. Motif as well,
 >> I presume.  >>   >>         Jan > b > If Motif still costs something although it is open source now VMS will be loaded with that also.  . Motif is free only for free operating systems.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:54:33 +0000l) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> / Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?r, Message-ID: <3A9DD609.8F6F6B77@infopuls.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Z > In article <3A9DBDF4.A3D41E43@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >>8 > >> "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes: > >>7 > >> > I think Tru64, like VMS is Compaq's own product.i > >>S > >> Coming as it does from OSF/1 (which was its (close to) original name), I thinkoR > >> the OSF is still collecting a license fee for every copy sold. Motif as well, > >> I presume.  > >> > >>         Jan > >sd > > If Motif still costs something although it is open source now VMS will be loaded with that also. > 0 > Motif is free only for free operating systems.   Exactly what I thought. This invalidates the argument further up in the thread that Q would get all the reveneus from VMS because it is its own.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:12:25 -0600 # From: "Mark E. Levy" <mark@fsi.net>o Subject: Gospel of the Tux& Message-ID: <3A9D93E9.3050900@fsi.net>   Gospel of Tux unearthed-  F Every generation has a mythology. Every millenium has a doomsday cult.G Every legend gets the distortion knob wound up until the speaker melts.rF Archeologists at the University of Helsinki today uncovered what could@ be the earliest known writings from the Cult of Tux, a fanaticalG religious sect that flourished during the early Silicon Age, around the ! dawn of the third millenium AD...    The Gospel of Tux (v1.1)  , In the beginning Turing created the Machine.  F And the Machine was crufty and bogacious, existing in theory only. AndC von Neumann looked upon the Machine, and saw that it was crufty. He E divided the Machine into two Abstractions, the Data and the Code, and C yet the two were one Architecture. This is a great Mystery, and the  beginning of wisdom.  H And von Neumann spoke unto the Architecture, and blessed it, saying, "GoE forth and replicate, freely exchanging data and code, and bring forth F all manner of devices unto the earth." And it was so, and it was cool.H The Architecture prospered and was implemented in hardware and software.1 And it brought forth many Systems unto the earth.e  D The first Systems were mighty giants; many great works of renown didF they accomplish. Among them were Colossus, the codebreaker; ENIAC, theF targeter; EDSAC and MULTIVAC and all manner of froody creatures endingF in AC, the experimenters; and SAGE, the defender of the sky and fatherH of all networks. These were the mighty giants of old, the first childrenD of Turing, and their works are written in the Books of the Ancients.( This was the First Age, the age of Lore.  E Now the sons of Marketing looked upon the children of Turing, and saw E that they were swift of mind and terse of name and had many great and_E baleful attributes. And they said unto themselves, "Let us go now and F make us Corporations, to bind the Systems to our own use that they mayH bring us great fortune." With sweet words did they lure their customers,E and with many chains did they bind the Systems, to fashion them aftern? their own image. And the sons of Marketing fashioned themselves F Suits to wear, the better to lure their customers, and wrote grave andB perilous Licenses, the better to bind the Systems. And the sons ofE Marketing thus became known as Suits, despising and being despised by 0 the true Engineers, the children of von Neumann.  H And the Systems and their Corporations replicated and grew numerous uponB the earth. In those days there were IBM and Digital, Burroughs andH Honeywell, Unisys and Rand, and many others. And they each kept to theirE own System, hardware and software, and did not interchange, for theiryD Licences forbade it. This was the Second Age, the age of Mainframes.  E Now it came to pass that the spirits of Turing and von Neumann lookedEF upon the earth and were displeased. The Systems and their CorporationsG had grown large and bulky, and Suits ruled over true Engineers. And thelF Customers groaned and cried loudly unto heaven, saying, "Oh that thereE would be created a System mighty in power, yet small in size, able to-H reach into the very home!" And the Engineers groaned and cried likewise,H saying, "Oh, that a deliverer would arise to grant us freedom from theseE oppressing Suits and their grave and perilous Licences, and send us a G System of our own, that we may hack therein!" And the spirits of Turing B and von Neumann heard the cries and were moved, and said unto eachE other, "Let us go down and fabricate a Breakthrough, that these criesh may be stilled."  F And that day the spirits of Turing and von Neumann spake unto Moore ofD Intel, granting him insight and wisdom to understand the future. AndE Moore was with chip, and he brought forth the chip and named it 4004.oG And Moore did bless the Chip, saying, "Thou art a Breakthrough; with my G own Corporation have I fabricated thee. Thou thou art yet as small as a ? dust mote, yet shall thou grow and replicate unto the size of atF mountain, and conquer all before thee. This blessing I give unto thee:E every eighteen months shall thou double in capacity, until the end ofp; the age." This is Moore's Law, which endures unto this day.oD And the birth of 4004 was the beginning of the Third Age, the age ofH Microchips. And as the Mainframes and their Systems and Corporations hadE flourished, so did the Microchips and their Systems and Corporations.d# And their lineage was on this wise:   F Moore begat Intel. Intel begat Mostech, Zilog and Atari. Mostech begatG 6502, and Zilog begat Z80. Intel also begat 8800, who begat Altair; andtH 8086, mother of all PCs. 6502 begat Commodore, who begat PET and 64; andC Apple, who begat 2. (Apple is the great Mystery, the Fruit that wasrF devoured, yet bloomed again.) Atari begat 800 and 1200, masters of the@ game, who were destroyed by Sega and Nintendo. Xerox begat PARC.D Commodore and PARC begat Amiga, creator of fine arts; Apple and PARCE begat Lisa, who begat Macintosh, who begat iMac. Atari and PARC begateE ST, the music maker, who died and was no more. Z80 begat Sinclair the E dwarf, TRS-80 and CP/M, who begat many machines, but soon passed fromiF this world. Altair, Apple and Commodore together  begat Microsoft, theG Great Darkness which is called Abomination, Destroyer of the Earth, theo Gates of Hell.  F Now it came to pass in the Age of Microchips that IBM, the greatest ofG the Mainframe Corporations, looked upon the young Microchip Systems and.G was greatly vexed. And in their vexation and wrath they smote the earthrG and created the IBM PC. The PC was without sound and colour, crufty andnA bogacious in great measure, and its likeness was a tramp, yet thetF Customers were greatly moved and did purchase the PC in great numbers.C And IBM sought about for an Operating System Provider, for in theirrH haste they had not created one, nor had they forged a suitably grave andG perilous License, saying, "First we will build the market, then we will E create a new System, one in our own image, and bound by our Licence."iE But they reasoned thus out of pride and not wisdom, not forseeing them wrath which was to come.  F And IBM came unto Microsoft, who licensed unto them QDOS, the child ofH CP/M and 8086. (8086 was the daughter of Intel, the child of Moore). AndE QDOS grew, and was named MS-DOS. And MS-DOS and the PC together waxedaD mighty, and conquered all markets, replicating and taking possessionD thereof, in accordance with Moore's Law. And Intel grew terrible andH devoured all her children, such that no chip could stand before her. AndE Microsoft grew proud and devoured IBM, and this was a great marvel in:C the land. All these things are written in the Books of the Deeds ofi
 Microsoft.  H In the fullness of time MS-DOS begat Windows. And this is the lineage ofF Windows: CP/M begat QDOS. QDOS begat DOS 1.0. DOS 1.0 begat DOS 2.0 byE way of Unix. DOS 2.0 begat Windows 3.11 by way of PARC and Macintosh.tH IBM and Microsoft begat OS/2, who begat Windows NT and Warp, the lost OSF of lore. Windows 3.11 begat Windows 95 after triumphing over MacintoshA in a mighty Battle of Licences. Windows NT begat NT 4.0 by way ofaE Windows 95. NT 4.0 begat NT 5.0, the OS also called Windows 2000, Thei; Millenium Bug, Doomsday, Armageddon, The End Of All Things.v  G Now it came to pass that Microsoft had waxed great and mighty among thetF Microchip Corporations; mighter than any of the Mainframe CorporationsG before it had it waxed. And Gates heart was hardened, and he swore untoo: his Customers and their Engineers the words of this curse:  E "Children of von Neumann, hear me. IBM and the Mainframe CorporationsoD bound thy forefathers with grave and perilous Licences, such that yeG cried unto the spirits of Turing and von Neumann for deliverance. Now IsG say unto ye: I am greater than any Corporation before me. Will I loosen E your Licences? Nay, I will bind thee with Licences twice as grave andcF ten times more perilous than my forefathers. I will engrave my LicenceF on thy heart and write my Serial Number upon thy frontal lobes. I willA bind thee to the Windows Platform with cunning artifices and withlG devious schemes. I will bind thee to the Intel Chipset with crufty codeaF and with gnarly APIs. I will capture and enslave thee as no generationA has been enslaved before. And wherefore will ye cry then unto thetH spirits of Turing, and von Neumann, and Moore? They cannot hear ye. I amF become a greater Power than they. Ye shall cry only unto me, and shallH live by my mercy and my wrath. I am the Gates of Hell; I hold the portalF to MSNBC and the keys to the Blue Screen of Death. Be ye afraid; be ye) greatly afraid; serve only me, and live."   E And the people were cowed in terror and gave homage to Microsoft, and E endured the many grave and perilous trials which the Windows platform F and its greatly bogacious Licence forced upon them. And once again didF they cry to Turing and von Neumann and Moore for a deliverer, but noneG was found equal to the task until the birth of Linux, the book of whicht is next but one.  G While all this was happening, there lived a quiet worker who complainednH not of his toils, nor did he don garish aparrel forasmuch as to call theG world to cast an eye upon him. He never rested from his labours and hiseC tools never grew cold. His engineers toiled upon extensions withoutgC measure; his users knew not of the blight of crash or bsod. He onlyiD wished one boot, secure in the knowledge that with it he could standE forever. His masters were gratified as he required not of upgrade; he  knew notH obsolescence. His name was VMS, and he was begat of VAX, the daughter ofD Pdp the Queen of the land of Mini. In the fullness of time VMS begatA Alpha, who was as swift as the wind. VMS and his house dwelt in ahA cluster apart from all others, and it came to pass that the worldcC noticed them not, and did not herald their good works. However, the|G great Warriors did not forget the diligence of VMS, and called upon him H to prepare their weapons and gird their minds with knowledge of the mostG secret thoughts of the people, all at once. In taking their charge, VMS E was everywhere and nowhere; a shimmering arcangel in the night, whicho the Warriors called "Echelon".  # These are the generations of Linux:D  E SAGE begat ARPA, which begat TCP/IP, and Aloha, which begat Ethernet. D Bell begat Multics, which begat C, which begat Unix. Unix and TCP/IPF begat Internet, which begat the World Wide Web. Unix begat RMS, fatherC of the great GNU, which begat the Libraries and Emacs, chief of thelB Utilities. In the days of the Web, Internet and Ethernet begat theF Intranet LAN, which rose to renown among all Corporations and preparedG the way for the Penguin. And Linus and the Web begat the Kernel through B Unix. The Kernel, the Libraries and the Utilities together are theF Distribution, the one Penguin in many forms, forever and ever praised.  C Now in those days there was in the land of Helsinki a young scholaraF named Linus the Torvald. Linus was a devout man, a disciple of RMS andH mighty in the spirit of Turing, von Neumann and Moore. One day as he wasH meditating on the Architecture, Linus fell into a trance and was granted> a vision. And in the vision he saw a great Penguin, serene andH well-favoured, sitting upon an ice floe eating fish. And at the sight ofE the Penguin Linus was deeply afraid, and he cried unto the spirits ofdA Turing, von Neumann and Moore for an interpretation of the dream.h  F And in the dream the spirits of Turing, von Neumann and Moore answeredF and spoke unto him, saying, "Fear not, Linus, most beloved hacker. YouF are exceedingly cool and froody. The great Penguin which you see is anF Operating System which you shall create and deploy unto the earth. TheA ice-floe is the earth and all the systems thereof, upon which thefE Penguin shall rest and rejoice at the completion of its task. And the=G fish on which the Penguin feeds are the crufty Licensed codebases which G swim beneath all the earth's systems. The Penguin shall hunt and devouriF all that is crufty, gnarly and bogacious; all code which wriggles likeH spaghetti, or is infested with blighting creatures, or is bound by graveA and perilous Licences shall it capture. And in capturing shall it E replicate, and in replicating shall it document, and in documentationrF shall it bring freedom, serenity and most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein."  H Linus rose from meditation and created a tiny Operating System Kernel asB the dream had foreshewn him; in the manner of RMS, he released theE Kernel unto the World Wide Web for all to take and behold. And in the F fulness of Internet Time the Kernel grew and replicated, becoming mostH cool and exceedingly froody, until at last it was recognised as indeed aH great and mighty Penguin, whose name was Tux. And the followers of Linus@ took refuge in the Kernel, the Libraries and the Utilities; theyF installed Distribution after Distribution, and made sacrifice unto theB GNU and the Penguin, and gave thanks to the spirits of Turing, vonH Neumann and Moore, for their deliverance from the hand of Microsoft. AndA this was the beginning of the Fourth Age, the age of Open Source.s  A Now there is much more to be said about the exceeding strange andpG wonderful events of those days; how some Suits of Microsoft plotted wareH upon the Penguin, but were discovered on a Halloween Eve; how Gates fellG among lawyers and was betrayed and crucified by his former friends, thetG apostles of Media; how the mercenary Knights of the Red Hat brought thepE gospel of the Penguin into the halls of the Corporations; and even of A the dispute between the brethren of Gnome and KDE over a trollishuE Licence. But all these things are recorded elsewhere, in the Books of3D the Deeds of the Penguin and the Chronicles of the Fourth Age, and ID suppose if they were all narrated they would fill a stack of DVDs as( deep and perilous as a Usenet Newsgroup.  @ Now may you code in the power of the Source; may the Kernel, theF Libraries and the Utilities be with you, throughout all Distributions,! until the end of the Epoch. Amen.   : Excessively modified by Werner L. Stunkel (werner@fsi.net)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:50:43 +0100% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>5A Subject: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?j. Message-ID: <97k2sk$a24$1@info.service.rug.nl>  0 We have a multi volume set of 5 disks for the=20 home directories of our users.4 These are 2GB RZ28 disks. I would like to replace=20# them with 5 other 4.3Gb RZ29 disks. 0 I tried to do it this evening, but it failed,=20* because I don't seem to understand BACKUP.   This is what I tried.>. Since I have no room in the box for ten disks,* I first made a saveset on tape (TZ88) with  8 $ BACKUP /IMAGE/NOALIAS source-disk tape:SAVESET /rewind  3 This took about 3 hours, not unreasonable, since=20 4 the disks are about 85% full, which is about 8.5 GB.2 I dismounted the disks, replaced them with the new1 disks and tried to restore the saveset onto these-1 disks. Since I wanted a cluster size of 4 blocks,0. instead of the default 9 blocks, I first did a    $ INIT /system /cluster=3D4 DISK  / for the 5 new disks. I mounted them /FOREIGN=20.	 and triedf  . $ BACKUP /image /noinit tape:SAVESET /rewind = dsk1:,dsk2:,dsk3:,dsk4:,dsk5:s  - This worked in principle, although there were:, messages that BACKUP increased INDEXF.SYS to+ accomodate the files from the source disks.:% I don't think that this is a problem.i7 However, this BACKUP RESTORE operation was extremely=20o8 slow: after 30 minutes only 80 MB was copied. A quick=201 calculation told me that it would cost a few daysr1 to complete the operation. Therefore I stopped it  and tried something else.s  1 I have room for one additional disk. So I thoughtp/ that maybe a disk-to-disk copy would be faster. , I placed back the old disks and placed a new0 disk in the extra position. I again did the INIT for the new disk and tried7 $ BACKUP /image/volume=3D1 source-disk new-disk /NOINITa3 However, BACKUP did not like the combination of the 1 /VOLUME and the /NOINIT qualifiers. It complainedr3 about /VOLUME being inconsistent with the operationx type.g  8 So I decided to give up on the non-default cluster size. I tried / $ BACKUP /image/volume=3D1 source-disk new-disk 8 This seemed to work much faster, however, in about 30=206 minutes I have seen 6 messages from BACKUP that it had9 a problem to close files because the file header is full.i8 So I don't think that it will work either. I stopped the6 operation and restored the old situation. I will retry7 to install the new disks another time, when I have a=20o better understanding of BACKUP.n  4 So the general question I have is, how does one copy< (in a reasonable time) the contents of the 5 source disks=208 to 5 other disks in order to get a logical equivalent=20< multi volume set, if one can have only six of those disks=20 online at a time?   " The specific questions I have are:  ; 1) Why is the BACKUP RESTORE operation so slow? Almost a=20 : factor of 20 slower than the BACKUP SAVE operation? Are=207 there qualifiers for BACKUP to enhance the performance?r  ; 2) Why can't I use the /VOLUME and the /NOINIT qualifier ino4 one BACKUP COPY operation? Is there a way to do a=20= disk-to-disk copy while keeping the cluster size at 4 blocks,n9 even if one cannot have all disks online at thesame time?   3 3) Why did BACKUP complain about closing errors and.> full file headers when the cluster size increases from 4 to 9?  9 4) (For completeness.) Is it true that the BACKUP messageg6 during a RESTORE operation about increasing INDEXF.SYS7 is no problem, or should I INIT the disks with a largerg INDEXF.SYS?   7 We run Open VMS 7.2-1. I used an AlphaServer 2100 4/200i1 with 512 MB memory. These are the process quotas:e    Account name: SYSTEM F  CPU limit:                      Infinite  Direct I/O limit:       400F  Buffered I/O byte count quota:    199808  Buffered I/O limit:     400F  Timer queue entry quota:             250  Open file quota:        512F  Paging file quota:                197008  Subprocess quota:        40F  Default page fault cluster:           64  AST quota:             4094F  Enqueue quota:                      3000  Shared file limit:       40F  Max detached processes:                0  Max active jobs:          0  ;   Working Set (pagelets)  /Limit=3D10240  /Quota=3D16384  =  /Extent=3D262144@   Adjustment enabled      Authorized Quota=3D16384  Authorized = Extent=3D262144i  F   Working Set (8Kb pages) /Limit=3D640  /Quota=3D1024  /Extent=3D16384?                           Authorized Quota=3D1024  Authorized =  Extent=3D16384   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:26:50 GMTd/ From: StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood)dY Subject: Re: Installing Availability Manager V1.4 on NT 4.0 breaks ReflectionsV8.0.2 V8.0h0 Message-ID: <3a9d8896.2084164@news.telocity.com>  2 On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:58:33 -0500, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote:a  = >"Steven P. Underwood" <StevenU@POBoxes.com> wrote in messageh, >news:3a9c7992.17318301@news.telocity.com... >>...sF >> I have Compaq Analyze running on my ES40 that I downloaded from theF >> Compaq web site (after being pointed to it by support).  I guess itG >> works, but it is WAY to unixy for my liking and where is the /since=E
 >> switch. >>C >> I used to be able to figure out what analyze/error was trying toa >tellr@ >> me, now I simply call tech support and have them tell me what >commandE >> they want me to run and let them analyze it.  If they want to maker >itf@ >> harder on me, that is what I have a hardware support contractG >> (extended to 3 years) for.  I have yet to get any useful informations? >> out of it that can help me determine if the tape errors I ama/ >> experiencing are hard/soft/media/etc errors.n >iG >I have Compaq Analyze running on our test ES40 Galaxy. I refuse to putaE >it on our production ES40. Compaq has agreed that if we ever need tohG >analyze our error log on the production ES40 then we can ship them theI: >ERRLOG.SYS and they will run Compaq Analyze on it for us. >yC >I do not know if GOOGLE goes back far enough, but I posted severaloF >notes here about Compaq Analyze last March. Here is part of one of myG >posts and one of the major reasons I will not put Compaq Analyze on my  >production machines;r >u > > >I have been connected to HTTP://nodename:7902 since some time< >yesterday morning. I am on a page that is titled "localhostB >(OpenVMS)." Every 10 minutes a new timestamp entry appears on the >screen. > ; >After a while the following items appeared in the browser;o > A >123.      ds20.errlog reports Problem Found: Memory Channel Link5/ >Transmit Error at Wed Mar 29 13:53:19 EST 2000hF >124.      ds20.errlog reports Problem Found: Control Packet Heartbeat. >Timeout Error at Wed Mar 29 13:53:19 EST 2000G >125.      ds20.errlog reports Problem Found: Memory Channel Phase Lock.+ >Loop Error at Wed Mar 29 13:53:19 EST 2000a >126.      ds20.errlog >eE >Where entry 126 came from I do not know. It mentions "DS20" but I amaE >on an ES40. Entries 123 through 125 all show me that the nodename isbD >"sabl28," I do not have any node name "sabl28" anywhere that I knowG >of. All three of these entries report "Local Time of Event: Thu, 8 Apry9 >1999 15:45:38 -0400" (yes, 1999 that was not a typo) yet ; >SYS$ERRORLOG:ERRLOG.SYS has a created date of 14-MAR-2000.w >h/ >When I click on entry 126 I see the following;h > E >1.  Tru64 UNIX CAM Event at Thu Apr 08 15:43:17 EDT 1999 from sabl28,G >2.  Tru64 UNIX Asychronous Device Attention at Thu Apr 08 15:45:38 EDTc >1999 from sabl28aC >3.  Tru64 UNIX Panic ASCII Message at Thu Apr 08 15:45:38 EDT 1999r >from sabl28G >4.  Tru64 UNIX Asychronous Device Attention at Thu Apr 08 15:45:40 EDTn >1999 from sabl28  > D >As far as I am aware, we do not have any Tru64 machines anywhere onF >this network. Where are these errors coming from? - Wait a minute. AsC >I was creating this message I decided to take a look at something.a >Yesterday morning I renamed: >SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYS0.COMPAQ.SVCTOOLS.CA]EXAMPLES.DIR to beC >SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYS0.COMPAQ.SVCTOOLS.CA]EXAMPLES_KEEP.DIR because IuC >noticed that CA ANALYZE keep trying to read in the examples ratherdE >than default to the correct errorlog. I have verified that am on thei; >node that is in the SYS0 tree. I just took a look and saw;8 >.@ >Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYS0.COMPAQ.SVCTOOLS.CA.EXAMPLES_KEEP] >,6 >DS20.ERRLOG;1              4   2-FEB-2000 15:29:50.00 >a >Total of 1 file, 4 blocks.a >tD >Dumping that file shows me the text "sabl28." So I must assume thatG >somehow CA decided to read in an example errorlog and show it to me astG >real data! PLEASE TELL ME THAT SOMEHOW I HAVE A PRE-BETA COPY OF CA ONBB >THIS SYSTEM AND THAT THIS WILL **NEVER** HAPPEN ONCE THE SHIPPING >PRODUCT IS INSTALLED! >D >sD I noticed a similiar occurance.  I simply deleted all of the exampleD files (mine had several) and now only the true error log appears.  IC asked support why it was not possible to define the file to monitorw* and they said "that WOULD be a good idea".   SteveS   Steven P. Underwood,DNRC Whitinsville,MAS StevenU@POBoxes.com1   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:44:31 -0500i2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>" Subject: Invalid mail notification7 Message-ID: <200102281944_MC2-C724-79AC@compuserve.com>g  F Your MAIL.MAI file was not on the system disk.  VMSMAIL_PROFILE.DAT isJ stored in SYS$COMMON.  So when you restored your system disk you restored=  & your mail count but not your messages.  J What should you do?  Well, you could read the MAIL documentation (6.9.14)=  J in the VMS V6.2 edition of "OpenVMS User's Manual".  Or you could read th= eI FAQ.  J However, I'll take pity on you; read all your real mail, if any, and then=  + say READ/NEW.  That will correct the count.   * Message text written by "Tomasz Dryjanski" >Hi,J I have the following problem: once I had 37 unread mail messages. I made = anG full system disk backup for some purposes and then read and deleted allo	 messages. 5 Then I had to restore the system disk and now I have:h PROMIS::$ mail   You have 37 new messages.t  
 MAIL> read  , %MAIL-E-NOTEXIST, folder MAIL does not exist   MAIL>c   Besides mail works OK. What should I do to fix it?I  	 Regards -w T. D.f <c   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 13:47:54 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) & Subject: Re: Issue dcl command from NT3 Message-ID: <oaSKiL4gk3Wh@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  M In article <8Qan6.40$DQ2.422@client>, "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com> writes:rN > Is there any way to have my NT server issue command on a Alphavms system run > version 4.2 of ucx  2 You can certainly do this with COM (DCOM) for VMS, but I don't know the details.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:59:36 GMT  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L' Message-ID: <3A9D66AB.C3098362@home.nl>    How about this story:   I Proud manager shows a very interested group of people one of the computero rooms.M Rows and rows of all kind of computer systems are buzzing away and doing very  important things.hN Then the manager makes a majestic wide gesture with his arm and ..... hits the& big red panic button next to the door.F A few seconds later all those beautiful computer systems are very very quiet.......   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:27:54 -0700h% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>h Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L) Message-ID: <3A9D6D5A.F33617A1@rdrop.com>e  D Several years ago I and my room-mate worked for different parts of a@ VLFI; I was a data geek, he worked for the physical plant at theH operations center.  At one point in mid-afternoon I noticed that my linkG to the operations center was down, but it wasn't a major part of my jobh< to worry about it, so I ignored it; presently, it came back.  E That night, I got the story.  Every month they test the fire alarms &oF smoke detectors on the platform.  When they do this, they send a guardG back to hold the normally open override switch so the call stays insideiG the building.  This one particular guard, being new, was sent back withtG explicit instructions- inside the door, yada yada, hold button in untile) we call on the radio and say otherwise...   D So he goes back, says he's ready, and leans on the button.  All hellC breaks loose.  Guards up front verify that he's pushing the button,iF "yeah, I'm leaning on it."  You've guessed, of course, that he hit theA 4" diameter , bright red PANIC button instead of the much smallerGH override, initiating a Halon dump, non-conductive bolt through the power; lines to the platform, three fire stations roll, the works.N  9 There was an opening for a security guard that afternoon.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:25:28 GMTn5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org>r Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L/ Message-ID: <3A9D2676.18EEAAF5@childrenshc.org>   H Our Digital Field Service Rep (Skip... I hope life's treating you well.)! also serviced a local hospital.. v  F In the MRI room, there was a VT220. He had the horizontal slid all theF way over to the right, this way it would compensate for the MRI firingE up. The whole screen would slide to the left extreme.... But still begF legible... Also, for fun, people in this area took the old fashion canF pop-can tops (the ones that come off) and made a chain from them. TheyA suspended this from the ceiling and would watch how it would bendt towards the MRI....e       --   Lyndon F. Bartelsi VMS Systems Administrator  Childrens Hospitals and Clinicso lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)Y 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:26:09 -0500i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90LL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011726090001@user-2iveam1.dialup.mindspring.com>  P In article <3A9D6D5A.F33617A1@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote:  F > Several years ago I and my room-mate worked for different parts of aK > VLFI;So he goes back, says he's ready, and leans on the button.  All hellwE > breaks loose.  Guards up front verify that he's pushing the button, H > "yeah, I'm leaning on it."  You've guessed, of course, that he hit theC > 4" diameter , bright red PANIC button instead of the much smalleruJ > override, initiating a Halon dump, non-conductive bolt through the power= > lines to the platform, three fire stations roll, the works.n  5 This makes me a bit afraid to ask what a "VLFI" is...  > ; > There was an opening for a security guard that afternoon.u  F Aw, come on!  They should have fired the guard's boss.  If he was new,D someone should have showed him the stoopid button he needed to hold.   -- i Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 00:14:19 GMTo2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <97k48r$13c@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  W In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com> writes:e >Good pointr >fF >We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $9007 >We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systemsh  , Compaq has left you a very tough row to hoe.  H A complete Sun Blade 100 costs within a few percent of that much.  New. D Including an OS with unlimited users.  That's an outstanding value -J something that cannot be said about any Alpha in Compaq's current lineup.   H Sun is going to sell zillions of them.  Which, if all goes as it usuallyF does, will mean that Compaq will be dumping large quantities of unsoldI Alpha workstation inventory into companies like Island in a year or two. s   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edun? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech eJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:37:08 +1100/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations. Message-ID: <hIhn6.156$o4.6345@ozemail.com.au>  4 Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3A9C3D77.85490F6E@infopuls.com... <snip>B > Sorry I don't get it. If I check the page I find the lowest cost > system for USD 9,995.00.6 I made the same assumption, but this is a sunblade1000E the one for < $1000 is the sunblade100 so just remove a zero from theZ	 hyperlink  (honestly I was just looking)b Phil+ PS. Should this be called a "thick" client?d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:05:57 -0500 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>(" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com>b  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org...e< > In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com> writes: > > Good point > >eI > > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $900y: > > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systems >F6 > I think that would be an excellent competitive move,E > (even though I am not currently in the market for another machine).c  I How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900oK O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if them/ OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.t   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 23:13:15 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <tIAXGlP9E8aO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:cH > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org...K= >> In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco"C > <sales@islandco.com> writes: >> > Good point  >> >J >> > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $900; >> > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systemsd >>7 >> I think that would be an excellent competitive move,uF >> (even though I am not currently in the market for another machine). > K > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900fM > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if thee1 > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.t  @ Islandco is in competition with other vendors, and thanks to the@ Internet, locality of purchase (at least within the US) does not@ count so much any more.  If Islandco offers a cheaper price thanC their competition for a VMS license, it is a good competitive move.g  A If you happen to feel that some $75 operating system is the equals< of VMS, then by all means purchase it, but some of us cannot0 think of a $75 operating system of that caliber.  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:27:36 -05002 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@ossc.DELETE.net>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <3a9dde40$1@newsfeed.vitts.com>e  0 "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message) news:t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com...eH > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org...l> > > In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco" > <sales@islandco.com> writes: > > > Good point > > >sK > > > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $900t< > > > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systems > >18 > > I think that would be an excellent competitive move,G > > (even though I am not currently in the market for another machine).  > K > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900 I > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if3 theS1 > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.:   Well, not necessarily ...   - Are you willing to save $825 in exchange for:m       blue screens full of hex,E%     unwelcome visits from Dr. Watson,      mysterious new .chk files,?     regular reboots (in a futile attempt to prevent the above).6  K But then, for $75, you get what you pay for.  And for $1,000,000, you could3
 have me ;)  K In all seriousness, the $75 license also opens a world of other licenses to  productsL that I only wish we had on VMS.  Imagine if you could run all of that stuff?  3 Hmmmm... I feel another midnight project coming on.t   -John2   >h >e >g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:56:31 +0100-% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>l8 Subject: Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.. Message-ID: <97jvn4$958$1@info.service.rug.nl>  D "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in =2 message news:009F84F6.D9E12977@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article =H <7DF45F22D904D31192EE00805F578DF2018BC77E@ny-exchange1.maintech1.com>, =3 "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> writes:I* > > Dean Woodward [deanw@rdrop.com] wrote:
 > > [snip] > >>  .  You see, in Un*x,I > >> > the program never gets to know what the actual command line was, =a even ifr > >> > it wanted to.=20t > >>=20yF > > This brings up an interesting question I've always wondered about. > > H > > In DCL, is it possible for the called DCL procedure to know the name2 > >of the DCL symbol that was used to call it. =20	 > > E.G.:r# > > $  myproc =3D "@my_dcl_proc"=20s > > $ myproc arg1 arg2 > >IB > > And inside my_dcl_proc.com one could determine that the symbol  > >"myproc" was what was used to > > invoke my_dcl_proc.com.e > >dF > > If it is possible to do this, could it also be done from inside an5 > >executable image written in a compilable language?  >=203 > $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE CTL$AG_CLIDATAg. > $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE PPD$L_PRC4 > $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE PRC_L_RECALLPTR   What is this SYMBOL command? It does not work here.   > $n5 > $ PRC =3D 'F$fao("%x!@XL",CTL$AG_CLIDATA+PPD$L_PRC)e2 > $ NXT =3D 'F$fao("%x!@XL",PRC+PRC_L_RECALLPTR)-1& > $ CMD =3D NXT-'F$fao("%x!@XB",NXT)-1* > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$fao("!AC",CMD)'" >=20 >=20 > --: > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     = VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >           =201G > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named =i after them.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 00:23:58 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 8 Subject: Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.0 Message-ID: <009F8544.7683A0DB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <97jvn4$958$1@info.service.rug.nl>, "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> writes: >tE >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in =o3 >message news:009F84F6.D9E12977@SendSpamHere.ORG...a >> In article =lI ><7DF45F22D904D31192EE00805F578DF2018BC77E@ny-exchange1.maintech1.com>, =e4 >"Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> writes:+ >> > Dean Woodward [deanw@rdrop.com] wrote:R >> > [snip]a >> >>  .  You see, in Un*x,wJ >> >> > the program never gets to know what the actual command line was, = >even if >> >> > it wanted to.=20 >> >>=20G >> > This brings up an interesting question I've always wondered about.5 >> >I >> > In DCL, is it possible for the called DCL procedure to know the name53 >> >of the DCL symbol that was used to call it. =20r
 >> > E.G.:$ >> > $  myproc =3D "@my_dcl_proc"=20 >> > $ myproc arg1 arg2  >> >C >> > And inside my_dcl_proc.com one could determine that the symbol ! >> >"myproc" was what was used toi >> > invoke my_dcl_proc.com. >> >G >> > If it is possible to do this, could it also be done from inside any6 >> >executable image written in a compilable language? >>=20M4 >> $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE CTL$AG_CLIDATA/ >> $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE PPD$L_PRCA5 >> $ SYMBOL/SET/LOCAL/DEPTH/EXECUTIVE PRC_L_RECALLPTRa >e >What is this SYMBOL command?I >It does not work here.     Then you need to get a copy!  :)  ' Here's some more information on SYMBOL:o  2 http://www.tmesis.com/help/@TMESIS%25SYMBOL/SYMBOL   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:26:23 -0500L2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Technical Update Day'sEL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011526230001@user-2ivec5g.dialup.mindspring.com>  > In article <uoan6.222$dl6.2667@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, "'Sue0 'Skonet'ski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote:   Thanks for the info.   begin{pet-peeve}  @ 'Sue, you more than mo'st 'should beware the danger's of puttingH apo'strophe's before 'S's where they don't belong.  You 'see where thi's 'sort of thing could lead.   end{pet-peeve}   ;-)e   -- 2 Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:57:07 -0800g! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.como+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Technical Update Day'soD Message-ID: <OFB1DD1AEC.232B7F15-ON88256A01.0072F882@foundation.com>  K Now I have this mental image of you keeping a peeve in a cage by your desk,r running around its wheel...   ? I wonder what you'd feed a peeve on, anyway? Quibbles and nits?e   Shane           F rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) on 02/28/2001 12:26:23 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy cc:e  , Subject:  Re: OpenVMS Technical Update Day's    > In article <uoan6.222$dl6.2667@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, "'Sue0 'Skonet'ski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote:   Thanks for the info.   begin{pet-peeve}  @ 'Sue, you more than mo'st 'should beware the danger's of puttingH apo'strophe's before 'S's where they don't belong.  You 'see where thi's 'sort of thing could lead.   end{pet-peeve}   ;-)e   -- Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:18:59 -0600 / From: Gloria Griffith <qusgagh@am1.ericsson.se> + Subject: Patrol monitoring software on VMS.g/ Message-ID: <3A9D5D33.E7EF2D66@am1.ericsson.se>    Hello,  G I would like to get reviews from someone who is running Patrol V3.30 oneB VMS with KM version 2.3.02 installed.  At this time we have the KMG version 2.3.01 installed and before I upgrade I would like to hear fromnD anyone that has already upgraded to that version of KM. (yes, I know1 that is cheating but it beats taken a beating ;-}t   TIAi   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 19:26:34 GMT* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)= Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATEh) Message-ID: <97jjda$sqa$1@hecate.umd.edu>   ] In article <01K0NL7VXCS200AENZ@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:l >nF >I assume from your description that the problem is in the results of J >running rather than the compilation.  Do you just get different results,  >or an access violation?  M Yes, you are right in that the program just gives the wrong results (reportedeM by a DIFF on the output files).  It does not give any access violation or any  other such error.h  3 To answer another poster, I'm already using /CHECK.J  F >The maps will be different because /NOSEP tries to inline small code 1 >snippets.  "Small" is indeterminate to us users.t   Well, it was worth a try.e  J >I would assume some problem with the argument/dummy argument lists which 7 >the in-lining rectifies for you.  I don't really know.    Bingo!  L Your hint about arguments did the trick.  The subroutine in question has itsM formal argument declared LOGICAL*1, and the calling routine(s) pass a literals/ character of length one as the actual argument.f  M I just checked the user manual, and (on p2-32) it talks about passing literaldO character constants by reference.  It says the compiler normally passes them bynO descriptor but can also pass them by reference to accomodate old programs whosel, subroutines treat them as numeric arguments.  M Evidently not using /SEPARATE (the default) the compiler looked at the formallG argument and figured out it had to pass it by reference, but when usingnH /SEPARATE it "put the blinders on" and could not see that, so it assumed
 descriptor.     I The compiler has a /BY_REF_CALL qualifier, which I tried using along withHH /SEPARATE.  Now the program behaves the same with and without /SEPARATE.O More to the point, when I remove the module in question and place it in its own L source file, everything still works (produces same result as original code).  J I do have to make sure the qualifier /BY_REF_CALL=(routine-list) is in the: makefile for this application for all its modules, though.   Thanks a bunch!    Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edue   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:54:29 -0500t+ From: Clayton Kroh <ckroh@MAIL.CLARION.EDU> * Subject: Recommend a VMS directory browser0 Message-ID: <3A9D7394.DACCD4EC@mail.clarion.edu>  K I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me( the directory tree structure.e  4 Can you recommend one along with where I can get it?   Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:28:17 -0500y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser, Message-ID: <3A9D7B79.9B1B183E@videotron.ca>   Clayton Kroh wrote: M > I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me  > the directory tree structure.f    H look at the freeware for something called SWING. Works on a VT terminal.  N You can also use the decwindeow filevew for something not as graphic, but letsG you move from directory to directlry (a bit like the windows explorer).    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:29:21 -0600n* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>. Subject: RE: Recommend a VMS directory browser- Message-ID: <0033000017442557000002L072*@MHS>s  ? =0AUsed to be a product called QFILE from W. Quinn, but I don't ! even know if they exist any more.n   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETf, > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 5:04 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET, > Subject: Recommend a VMS directory browser >u > < > I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something > that can show me > the directory tree structure.b >o6 > Can you recommend one along with where I can get it? >m > Thanks in advance. >=   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:36:44 GMTq/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>L. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser) Message-ID: <3A9D291C.442247C4@uiowa.edu>o   Clayton Kroh wrote:> > M > I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me1 > the directory tree structure.i > 6 > Can you recommend one along with where I can get it?  D Look for CSwing.  It is a great VT semi-graphical (SMG graphics).  I have found it located here:    	ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/narnia/   Regards, Rick -- uH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:55:25 -0700*$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser) Message-ID: <3A9D81DD.54BCC9EF@cha.ab.ca>   O I have available the following procedure.  If this is what you are looking for,*% I can send it to you or post it here.-   $ ! TREE.COM $ !MJ $ ! Copied from DCL Dialogue column in June 1994 issue of DEC Professional
 $ ! magazine.c $ !o  $ ! Written by Seann Herdejurgen $ !3* $ ! This command file displays a directory$ $ ! tree of the directory specified,, $ ! or if none is given, the current default1 $ ! directory.  The TREE command can be set up asl* $ ! a DCL command with the following line:0 $ !     $ TREE :== @<device>:<directory>TREE.COM& $ ! The syntax for the TREE command is$ $ !                 $ TREE directory& $ ! For example:    $ TREE DUA0:[SYS0] $ !  ...h   Clayton Kroh wrote:t  M > I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me5 > the directory tree structure.o >m6 > Can you recommend one along with where I can get it? >  > Thanks in advance.   -- Leem  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityt? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCn4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9n   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 22:10:02 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)e. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser0 Message-ID: <97jsvq$95s$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  ^ In article <3A9D7394.DACCD4EC@mail.clarion.edu>, Clayton Kroh <ckroh@MAIL.CLARION.EDU> writes:L >I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me >the directory tree structure. >n5 >Can you recommend one along with where I can get it?-  J I don't know who originally wrote it, but it has been modified a lot since then.     
 $ ! TREE.COM   $ !c $ ON ERROR THEN GOTO endes $ wr :== WRITE sys$output@ $ write_file = "FALSE" $ level = 0c $ null = ""2 $ line = "|-------"o $ blanks = line"	 $ wr nulli( $ sav_default = F$ENVIRONMENT("DEFAULT")) $ direct = sav_default ! vorher user_roota) $ IF (P1 .NES. "FILE") THEN GOTO no_parame $param: , $    OPEN/WRITE FILE sys$login:graphtree.lis $    write_file = "TRUE" $    DEFINE sys$output file 
 $no_param: $ wr direct  $ GOTO loopL $ !E $ !2 $loop: $ last = directi" $ direct = F$SEARCH("*.DIR",LEVEL)' $ IF (direct .NES. "") THEN GOTO deeper 
 $ GOTO highert $ !o $deeper: $ level = level + 1 5 $ IF (LEVEL .NE. 1) THEN blanks = "|       " + blankst" $ vz = F$PARSE(direct,,,"name")    $ wr blanks + vz d $ SET DEFAULT [.'vz']v $ GOTO loopc $ !$ $higher:" $ IF (level .EQ. 0) THEN GOTO ende/ $ IF (last .EQS. "") THEN wr blanks - "-------"  $ level = level - 1l $ blanks = blanks - "|       " $ SET DEFAULT '[-]'  $ GOTO loop, $ !t $ende:	 $ wr nulln $ SET DEFAULT 'sav_default'l $ IF write_file .EQS. "TRUE" o
 $    THEN " $    DEFINE sys$output sys$command $    CLOSE fileh $ ENDIFt $ EXIT   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannt  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:47:24 -0500h: From: "HB Computer Technology, Inc." <hbcomp@maine.rr.com>+ Subject: Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32s6 Message-ID: <%_gn6.3507$9u2.22978@newsr1.maine.rr.com>  G We have replaced 15 LPS32 printers with LNM40-DA printers from Genicom.nI These printers are 40 page per minute, 200K pages a month duty cycle, and@K can be managed from the web.  They work well with OpenVMS, ut make sure youoG install DCPS V1.8 to get support. We also have these under a three year D maintenance agreement with Compaq for hardware support. They support' LAT/TCPIP, and several other protocols.     : "Peter Harding" <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message( news:3A9BD9B2.3D931F7@herald.ox.ac.uk...
 > Hi y'all >rG > We've just about LaTeX-mailmerged our three PrintServer 32's into therH > ground and we'd like to replace them with something similarly capable.? > The banner pages probably tell you useful stuff that we don'tn
 > understand:l >sJ > "Digital Equipment Corporation                    PrintServer 32 LPS321"J > "OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2                        DECPrint Supervisor V1.5" >iC > (although I believe the V7.1-1H2 is soon to be changed to V7.2-1)e >tI > We need serious postscript machinery with a good spread of tray optionstH > that'll do 32ppm 24 hours/day for six months and then take shorter andE > irregular bouts of similar hard use for four or five years, but ourrI > technical chaps are folding their arms and saying "No; they don't do itaJ > any more." We find that hard to swallow. Is there something we can point% > them at and say "What about those?"- >-
 > Many thanks, >  > -- > http://i.am/getting_married . > ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 23:10 CSTn' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e+ Subject: Re: Replacement for PrintServer 32n- Message-ID: <28FEB200123103336@gerg.tamu.edu>.  B If you want a *really* fast printer, Xerox just recently announcedA a new printer that does 500 pages per minute. I have no idea whatcA the page per month rating is, but it would have to be pretty high]? or you'd only be expected to run it a few minutes a month. It'so$ called something like DocuPrint 500.   --- Carl  > "HB Computer Technology, Inc." <hbcomp@maine.rr.com> writes...H }We have replaced 15 LPS32 printers with LNM40-DA printers from Genicom.J }These printers are 40 page per minute, 200K pages a month duty cycle, andL }can be managed from the web.  They work well with OpenVMS, ut make sure youH }install DCPS V1.8 to get support. We also have these under a three yearE }maintenance agreement with Compaq for hardware support. They support_( }LAT/TCPIP, and several other protocols. }  } ; }"Peter Harding" <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote in messager) }news:3A9BD9B2.3D931F7@herald.ox.ac.uk...  }> Hi y'allC }>H }> We've just about LaTeX-mailmerged our three PrintServer 32's into theI }> ground and we'd like to replace them with something similarly capable.S@ }> The banner pages probably tell you useful stuff that we don't }> understand: }>K }> "Digital Equipment Corporation                    PrintServer 32 LPS321" K }> "OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2                        DECPrint Supervisor V1.5"= }>D }> (although I believe the V7.1-1H2 is soon to be changed to V7.2-1) }>J }> We need serious postscript machinery with a good spread of tray optionsI }> that'll do 32ppm 24 hours/day for six months and then take shorter and-F }> irregular bouts of similar hard use for four or five years, but ourJ }> technical chaps are folding their arms and saying "No; they don't do itK }> any more." We find that hard to swallow. Is there something we can point & }> them at and say "What about those?" }> }> Many thanks }> }> --K }> http://i.am/getting_married/ }> ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230o }  }    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:25:17 GMT . From: "Stephan Lorg" <lorges@realsoftware.be>, Subject: Sending e-mail with system routines7 Message-ID: <11en6.396$PS4.36770@nreader2.kpnqwest.net>e  - I want to send e-mail with a system routines.o8 The mail$send... routines only accept VMS user routines.4 We use VMS 7.1-2 and have UCX with SMTP implemented.E Does somebody know which routine and with which parameters I can send  e-mail?y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:21:54 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Re: Sending e-mail with system routines, Message-ID: <3A9D79FA.3D90F3D2@videotron.ca>   "Stephan Lorg=E9" wrote:/ > I want to send e-mail with a system routines.e: > The mail$send... routines only accept VMS user routines.6 > We use VMS 7.1-2 and have UCX with SMTP implemented.G > Does somebody know which routine and with which parameters I can send 	 > e-mail?l  J Your question isn't very clear. Why exactly are the mail$ routines not ri= ght ?E  F You may also look at the FAQ on the vms website , it has an example ofJ submitting messages directly to the smtp gateway (but they are not offici= ally documented YET.)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:29:08 +1100/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>m9 Subject: Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop't. Message-ID: <nsin6.192$o4.7358@ozemail.com.au>  7 Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messageh' news:87pugas9w0.fsf@prep.synonet.com...  >e> > Ok, if we swallow the line that VMS is not for the desk top, > then what is?n >)# I can see this thread goes on a bitt; and I havn't got time to follow it to the bitter end, so...5 A Compaq deskpro NT4 sp5 < Your favourite telnet and ftp clients (puttytel and ws-ftp?) X-Win32' DCL-lite nuTPUt  2 if your religous convictions prevent you using NT,7 then an alphastation with free-bsd seems the way to go.t  9 I probably shouln't get involved with the "language war",d: but IMHO if you can't do what you want with Compaq Fortran, then you should pay someone else to do it :) Phil   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:37:22 -05002 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@ossc.DELETE.net>' Subject: Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyistc+ Message-ID: <3a9de08b$1@newsfeed.vitts.com>.   Not really.6  J My 4000-60 had only 32 MB, until the angels came and took it away to be onJ the farm with its mother.  A sad day indeed, but when it was replaced withH an XP1000 6/667 with 512MB of memory, I moved on rather quickly.  I went> from click-rattle-rattle-rattle-poof to click-poof in no time.  C The integration of the Tru64 networking kernel into TCPIP V5.0 alsoeI incorporated some interesting side effects.  For one thing, Tru64 doesn'tmJ sell many systems with little memory.  Keep in mind that they don't run onK VAX, but we made the code work there.  Compared to the Ultrix network code,eK the Tru64 code is very demanding on memory (ithat is, VMS' non-paged pool).    -Johne    8 "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> wrote in message" news:3A9D3A2D.8D708479@ohio.edu...G > I suspect they just didn't test it with any VAX that had less than 321	 > MBytes.0 > - >                                         RDPe >  >j > trevor wrote:o >g > > Hi > >VG > > I'd like to try TCPIP services 5.1 on my hobbyist machines at home.lI > > Trouble is at work I only have Alpha's now and (even worse) at home IhF > > only have VAX'en, so I don't have access to the appropriate media. > >sK > > Would some kind soul be prepared to copy or loan me the media for TCPIPdK > > services 5.1 for VAX.  I have a hobbyist license.  I'm in the UK, and I / > > can read TK50, TK70, TLZ06 and CD-ROM.  Ta.- > >-H > > By the way I notice that the TCPIP 5.1 SPD says the Required minimumL > > memory for VAX is 32MB.  I think this will preclude a significant numberL > > of hobbyist class machines running it, e.g VAX station 4000 VLC 24MB maxK > > memory IIRC.  I wonder if this really is the Minimum Requirement, or ifrL > > perhaps operation is possible with 24MB but at reduced performance.  AnyJ > > thoughts ?  Are many people using 5.1 yet ?  Is there an install check > > for memory ? > >rK > > It seems to me that a PDP-11 with 256kB of RAM used to be able to do annJ > > awful lot that you could'nt possibly do now unless you have buckets ofE > > the stuff.  Yes I know chalk and cheese, but I have seen the termTI > > bloatware used with regard M$oft products and I would hate to see thepA > > same term levelled at VMS, after all what does VMS stand for.a > >e > > Regards, Trevoro > >o" > > trevor_deja AT my-deja DOT com >i > --D > ==================================================================D > Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerD > piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesD > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:16:33 -0500d2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: vms 5.5 on vax 4000-200 problemL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2802011516340001@user-2ivec5g.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <97g9il$s6t$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, "Paul Brett" <pbrett@mun.ca> wrote:  ( > Trying to answer some of your question > C > The system starts to boot....  say it cant find DCLTABLES.EXE andt4 > MOUNTSHR.EXE and then gives me an access violation > reason mask 4r1 > Improperly handled condition, image exit forcedw$ > and then does a register dump.....  H Well, these should be in SYS$SHARE, not SYS$MANAGER.  So your on-disk OSI is pretty badly toasted.  Simplest thing is probably to re-install.  Thato; will wipe out the disk, so back up anything you need first.i    N > I have a stand alone backup on tape... can boot to that... will access tapes  5 Good.  Have you found the VMS docs on-line?  Start at,C www.openvms.compaq.com, and look for the "Installation and Upgrade"dJ manual.  They don't have such old versions on-line, but OpenVMS VAX hasn't changed all that much.   :-)  H Do you have the OS installation tapes?  I don't know how many there are, probably more than one.c    I > can also boot the hard disk to minimum setup.. but cant access the tape>M > drive when I do it this way....but can navigate the system disk too see all(L > files that are still intact... but ftp doesn't work this was.....either...  = What top-level directories are still there?  Look in [000000]-    aG > The system is equipped with a TF85 tape drive and the system disk....e > G > The full system backup I have is unusable... (the tape is unreadable)7J > I don't think I have the original operating system.. I have a system tap
 > labelled > V-STREAM V5-2-05! > is this the operating system...t   It doesn't look quite right.  J > I know it is older than the one on the system but I am not worried about	 > that...e- > I just need to get info that is on tapes...c  J The problem is getting installation media on tape.  CD is much easier, but? you don't have a CD drive or even SCSI support, it sounds like.1  7 Hopefully someone in the newsgroup can help with media.>   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:17:25 +0000d) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o% Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. Take II , Message-ID: <3A9DCD55.31F80C96@infopuls.com>   Paul Repacholi wrote:I > 6 > hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > C > > In article <871ysma6dz.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholid# > > <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  > D > > :Hum, perhaps it is time for a 'what do folks want on VMS' list. >  > >   Um, (respectfully) no... > G > >   Folks around here do have a good idea of the common requests -- I A > >   have been working to make sure commonly-requested tools are  > >   available... > C > >   Perhaps it is time for a `how can we help you port it?' list,a > >   instead... > = > >   Like most any commercial software organization, OpenVMSoG > >   Engineering does not have the cycles available to port everythingaD > >   for everyone...  (I am hesitant to offer to coordinate such anD > >   effort, as I'm already working regularly in this area with the > >   Freeware...) > < > I was not thinking of an open ended winge list to ZK Hoff. > D > Everyone had their own list of 'must haves', wants, and nice extraC > stuff. The common feature is that they are all different... So it A > would be nice if we had some idea of what others wanted, and if ! > someone else was working on it.  > H > It would be even nicer if we started to do some design and engineeringE > *before* people started cutting code... You know, those things that\* > under lie WHY we like VMS to start with. > 7 > For VMS itself, there is the traditional SIR process.1 >  > This is a parallel to that.l > @ > So let see if we can do it, and do it well. BTW, that includes8 > ruthless editing of Subject: and no topic drift folks. > F > So let's start with the wishlist process. NO 'I want...' yet please.; > This is about how we conordinate and plan the whole mess.d >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.hB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.  4 Please explain in more detail what you have in mind.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:37:53 GMT<3 From: Eric Dittman <dittman@narnia.int.dittman.net>n Subject: Re: VX1 and PC164LX@ Message-ID: <55fn6.15510$dl4.712494@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>  + Peter LANGSTOEGER <eplan@kapsch.net> wrote:Vx : In article <DZym6.44421$3%5.332928@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>, Eric Dittman <dittman@narnia.int.dittman.net> writes:7 :>Has anyone tried using a VX1 board (with the required 6 :>patches) on a PC164LX?  I've tried and I can get the7 :>display up, but the system is so incredibly slow thatr7 :>logging in on a serial line takes about five minutes,32 :>followed by about five minutes to do a SHOW SYS,: :>followed by a STOP/ID= on the DECwindows SERVER process,- :>at which time the system returns to normal.m :>; :>If anyone has any ideas, let me know.  This is on V7.2-1.c  + : Sounds as if you haven't enough memory...j  A How much system memory does the VX1 need?  I have 256MB installedl
 right now. -- a Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.netw   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:58:04 GMTc From: dittman@dittman.nett Subject: Re: VX1 and PC164LX? Message-ID: <0ofn6.9540$e33.943220@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>o  $ Islandco <sales@islandco.com> wrote: : Eric  M : I tried sending you the mail delivery error message and got a mail deliveryW+ : error on the error that I was sending youe   : Go figurel  C The problem was my address was set wrong in my news reader.  It wasl9 using my internet address instead of my external address.e -- r Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:24:19 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>2 Subject: Re: [info] Telnet/Rlogin and 7.2-1 broken& Message-ID: <3A9D5E8C.F5A644A7@gmx.ch>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: > $ > What did you upgrade in addition ? > UCX V4 to TCPIP V5 ?   yes:   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:55:35 -0600 7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>E* Subject: Re: [Request] f$element delimiter- Message-ID: <3A9D49A7.7B39A471@earthlink.net>(   Didier Morandi wrote:a > I > I would like f$element to allow more than one character as a delimiter.E > 2 > For example, I would like to be able to do this: >  > $ sh symb line > line = "$ cmd=="@myproc""T: > $ proc_file = f$element(1,"==",line) - "@" - """" - """"   I should think that   $ $ IF	F$ELEM( 1, "=", LINE ) .EQS. "" $ THEN% $	IF	F$ELEM( 2, "=", LINE ) .NES. "="- $	THEN) 		...you found a global symbol definitionu $	ELSEF 		...you found a statement equating a local symbol to the null string:   $ LINE = "$ CMD :="    ...for example.    -- o David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.6   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Feb 2001 22:22:34 GMT From: ka2doug@cs.com (KA2DOUG)* Subject: Re: [Request] f$element delimiter> Message-ID: <20010228172234.00909.00000343@ng-cj1.news.cs.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:l > I > I would like f$element to allow more than one character as a delimiter.e > 2 > For example, I would like to be able to do this: >  > $ sh symb line > line = "$ cmd=="@myproc"",: > $ proc_file = f$element(1,"==",line) - "@" - """" - """"    * Why not use f$locate("@",line) to do this?   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Feb 2001 23:42:55 +0100) From: maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) * Subject: Re: [Request] f$element delimiter! Message-ID: <hBrTQ5vmHFzO@ludens>   U In article <3A9CE8AF.9680B88C@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:DI > I would like f$element to allow more than one character as a delimiter.O > 2 > For example, I would like to be able to do this: >  > $ sh symb line > line = "$ cmd=="@myproc""1: > $ proc_file = f$element(1,"==",line) - "@" - """" - """"   for your problem:w   $ sep = "=="G $ proc_file = f$extract(f$locate(sep,line)+f$len(sep),f$len(line),line)e     in general:d   $ sep = "==" $ . $ elem0 = f$extract(0,f$locate(sep,line),line) $ line = line - elem0  $ if line .eqs. "" s $ then elem1 = sep $ else line = line - sep. $ elem1 = f$extract(0,f$locate(sep,line),line) $ line = line - elem1  $ if line .eqs. "" u $ then elem2 = sep $ else line = line - sep. $ elem3 = f$extract(0,f$locate(sep,line),line) .2 .5 .F $ endif4 .0 .  .- $ endif-     or by loop, what you prefer.     >  > D.  H Adam Maulis              maulis@ludens elte hu        VMS system managerH ........................................................................H VMS Competence Center                              VMS Szakertoi KozpontH Eotvos Lorand University                   Eotvos Lorand TudomanyegyetemH Budapest, Hungary                                               BudapestH ========================================================================   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.119 ************************