1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 01 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 120       Contents:@ Re: Alpha: game over. Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 RE: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 RE: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle Re: DCL content (long) Re: DCL content (long) Re: DCL content (long) Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirt" Re: Docs for PMAGB-J frame buffer?' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later & Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? Re: Gospel of the Tux D Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag e?< Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?< RE: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks? Re: Invalid mail notification  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  RE: Janitor fixes 90L  RE: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L & Job-Offer: VMS SysMgt @ Stock exchange Looking for VI emulator for TPU # Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPU  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations F Re: Moose Manure.. (was Re: a little humor for this so often humorless/ Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.  Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM
 New Sun Blade  RE: New Sun Blade / Re: PCSI kits - where was a specific kit built? 4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE% Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser ( Re: RTR now licesnsed as part of OpenVMS SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me... ' Re: Sending e-mail with system routines 0 Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' Storage and MTBF Re: Storage and MTBF tamper resistance techniques9 TREE.COM revised (was: Recommend a VMS directory browser)  Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist1 [info] inconsistency in PCSI doc on REGISTER verb ! Re: [Request] f$element delimiter   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:17:37 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br I Subject: Re: Alpha: game over. Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? L Message-ID: <OFBB0503FF.C009A5A2-ON032569FC.0056711A@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  9 I few months ago I commented about DS10L and Proliant 360  rack mount servers....  < Why Compaq didnt integrate the cabinets ? Would be much more> interesting if Compaq standardize the cases of Intel and Alpha	 products.   ; They can save money in projects and integrate resources....   6 If the 1U Proliant 360 has a hot-swap disk why not the DS10L ?   . Why not a Remote Insight Board for alphas.....5 HP has the Lan Console board for the unix servers....   6 Why not forget Presarios and Proliants and DS, ES, GS,, and simply put names according to the use of the servers.  3 Internet, Enterprise, Low Entry, Midrange, etc ....   ( Even if they are Alpha, Intel or ARM :-)    3 Probably because DECompaq have problems with names: ? If I remeber Ultrix, sorry OSF, sorry Digital Unix, sorry Tru64  sorry NSKTrunix64 . . .      Regards    FC            J kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) em 23/02/2001 11:13:59             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       I Assunto: Re: Alpha: game over. Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?     F In article <zEtl6.4220$ce4.1120435@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:K > This Risky Numbering Scheme is brought to you by the same Alpha marketing J > wizards who brought you five different Alpha platform naming conventionsH > over the life of the product. (DEC 3xxx, Alpha 400 4/233, etc, etc). ID > suspect they'll increment the DS15 to DS30, the DS25 to DS40, etc. > E > Or maybe it'll be time for yet another change in naming convention!    Bingo!  A Out goes names like DS##, ES##, and GS###, and in come names like 9 Presario, Proliant, Professional (whoops), and Precipice.    ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:14:04 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> ? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0103010910140.25075-100000@world.std.com>  & On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Alan Greig wrote:   > C > At the recent analyst conference Winkler stated that Compaq would D > license its clustering technology to Oracle and would work closely= > with both Oracle and Microsoft to implement this on Windows 
 > Datacentre.  > = > Well it looks like this has just been announced officially  P > http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4961213-CPQ.html?tag=l >  >  > Note one particular bit  > C > "-- Technology Development -- Oracle will license selected Compaq F > Tru64 UNIX clustering technology to be integrated into Oracle9i RealG > Application Clusters to create Oracle's Portable Cluster Layer (PCL). G > This PCL, initially available on Tru64 UNIX, will become available on ) > a wide variety of computing platforms."  > H > Note the "wide variety of computing platforms". To me this is code forC > Windows Datacentre which was explicitly mentioned by Winkler as a F > primary target for this project. It's also the only other  OS CompaqC > sell that could take advantage of this deal unless they intend to  > resell HP-UX or Solaris. >   E The elements from Tru64 (DLM, connection manager, SysMan, kernel goup G services, etc) will be incorporated into Oracle 91 Portable Clusterware 1 for Slowlaris, Linux, HP-UX, AIX, Windoze, et al.   D Of course, the stuff will show up on Tru64 first, and Oracle will be4 developing the software on Tru64 instead of Solaris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:24:14 -0500 / From: "Webb, William W" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> ? Subject: RE: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle K Message-ID: <D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB750019259F6@rlghncst625.usps.gov>   < I am unconcerned about the transfer of clustering technology to Windows <sub-nom-du-jour>.   = Rolling doggie doo in rhinestones won't turn it into jewelry.    WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ( > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:27 AM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETA > Subject: RE: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle  >  > ( > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Alan Greig wrote: >  > > E > > At the recent analyst conference Winkler stated that Compaq would F > > license its clustering technology to Oracle and would work closely? > > with both Oracle and Microsoft to implement this on Windows  > > Datacentre.  > > > > > Well it looks like this has just been announced officially > > @ > http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-496121 > 3-CPQ.html?tag=l > >  > >  > > Note one particular bit  > > E > > "-- Technology Development -- Oracle will license selected Compaq H > > Tru64 UNIX clustering technology to be integrated into Oracle9i Real= > > Application Clusters to create Oracle's Portable Cluster   > Layer (PCL).= > > This PCL, initially available on Tru64 UNIX, will become   > available on+ > > a wide variety of computing platforms."  > > ? > > Note the "wide variety of computing platforms". To me this  
 > is code for E > > Windows Datacentre which was explicitly mentioned by Winkler as a H > > primary target for this project. It's also the only other  OS CompaqE > > sell that could take advantage of this deal unless they intend to  > > resell HP-UX or Solaris. > >  > G > The elements from Tru64 (DLM, connection manager, SysMan, kernel goup > > services, etc) will be incorporated into Oracle 91 Portable 
 > Clusterware 3 > for Slowlaris, Linux, HP-UX, AIX, Windoze, et al.  > F > Of course, the stuff will show up on Tru64 first, and Oracle will be6 > developing the software on Tru64 instead of Solaris. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:47:28 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle 8 Message-ID: <6kqs9tomtd5dnev1qtlmp3brrpmg71k79e@4ax.com>  0 On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:14:04 GMT, Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> wrote:   >    > F >The elements from Tru64 (DLM, connection manager, SysMan, kernel goupH >services, etc) will be incorporated into Oracle 91 Portable Clusterware2 >for Slowlaris, Linux, HP-UX, AIX, Windoze, et al. > E >Of course, the stuff will show up on Tru64 first, and Oracle will be 5 >developing the software on Tru64 instead of Solaris.   C Hopefully not in the same fashion Windows 64 bit showed up on Alpha  first...  D The question is will Oracle *release* it on Tru-64 before Sloaris orC Windoze?  Recall that the only platform other than T64 that Winkler D mentioned by name as a target for this project was Windoze. He then,D if memory serves, actually said that Compaq's preferred platform for= the product would be Windoze/Oracle on Compaq hardware. It is C certainly possible that he was just trying to mislead Microsoft but D this would not fit in with the general tone of his speech. Microsoft9 is Comaq's number one partner and explicitly reminded us.   ? When I reported Winkler's speech at the time I pointed out this B clustering  technology transfer and several people told me that itD wasn't true to the best of their knowledge. Then a month or so laterE comes the official announcement. I would tend to assume that the rest E of his speech reflected Compaq policy and the only thing he did wrong % was to reveal too much in public. No?    >  >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:47:50 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> ? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle / Message-ID: <t9svajog35go58@news.supernews.com>   : "Webb, William W" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messageE news:D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB750019259F6@rlghncst625.usps.gov... > > I am unconcerned about the transfer of clustering technology > to Windows <sub-nom-du-jour>.  > ? > Rolling doggie doo in rhinestones won't turn it into jewelry.  >   0 Yeah but it doesn't do much for the rhinestones!   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 11:51:37 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle 3 Message-ID: <Gt4YPj0rHXjp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <6kqs9tomtd5dnev1qtlmp3brrpmg71k79e@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:2 > On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:14:04 GMT, Terry C Shannon  > <shannon@world.std.com> wrote: >  >> >  >>G >>The elements from Tru64 (DLM, connection manager, SysMan, kernel goup I >>services, etc) will be incorporated into Oracle 91 Portable Clusterware 3 >>for Slowlaris, Linux, HP-UX, AIX, Windoze, et al.  >>F >>Of course, the stuff will show up on Tru64 first, and Oracle will be6 >>developing the software on Tru64 instead of Solaris. > E > Hopefully not in the same fashion Windows 64 bit showed up on Alpha 
 > first... > F > The question is will Oracle *release* it on Tru-64 before Sloaris orE > Windoze?  Recall that the only platform other than T64 that Winkler F > mentioned by name as a target for this project was Windoze. He then,F > if memory serves, actually said that Compaq's preferred platform for? > the product would be Windoze/Oracle on Compaq hardware. It is E > certainly possible that he was just trying to mislead Microsoft but F > this would not fit in with the general tone of his speech. Microsoft; > is Comaq's number one partner and explicitly reminded us.  >   9 	Don't think this could be possible at all.  We know from 9 	reading rags, Itanium is the Itanic and certainly isn't  = 	business app oriented.  But how hard was that to figure out?   + 		The bandwidth of Itanium is a 1998 number + 		The bandwidth of Itanium is a 1998 number + 		The bandwidth of Itanium is a 1998 number   1 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/17233.html   I "Checking our notes (March 28 2000 to be precise), the talk about Itanium N was all main-memory databases, business intelligence and decision support, andO NUMA clusters. Yesterday, it was almost a full hour by our clock before a panel O member volunteered any of these subjects. The tech compute guys were happy with L floating point performance, for sure. And the cost? Mahlon Stacy of the MayoG Clinic said "We got it for free - so price/performance was excellent."      ? 	Did anyone stand up last year and question the business target ? 	of Itanium?  Anyone interested in P4/Foster bandwidth?  Timing @ 	killed Itanium for sure so it isn't all mud to be thrown at the 	hacks in attendence.   > 	So by the time Whistler gets healthy on McKinley hardware and< 	Oracle is there and tested, you've got a case!  Until then,= 	it is very much the Unixes that this will show up on and the D 	noticeable absence of W2K/NT in the releases might be a big tip-offB 	don't you think?  After all, Compaq is very pro NT/W2K was that aD 	big slip-up leaving out NT/W2K?  When pigs fly!!  Think about it...F 	just how easy is it to undo all the 64-bit stuff in the Tru64 DLM and@ 	make sure it runs right under W2K/IA32?  That is just one minor4 	issue, I am sure I am overlooking a few major ones.     > A > When I reported Winkler's speech at the time I pointed out this D > clustering  technology transfer and several people told me that itF > wasn't true to the best of their knowledge. Then a month or so laterG > comes the official announcement. I would tend to assume that the rest G > of his speech reflected Compaq policy and the only thing he did wrong ' > was to reveal too much in public. No?  >   D 	I suspect Mr. Winkler is selling a good batch of futures.  Betcha!    				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:12:36 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) ? Subject: RE: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle / Message-ID: <t9t48kjklmau80@news.supernews.com>   1 wwebb1@email.usps.gov (Webb, William W) wrote in  @ <D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB750019259F6@rlghncst625.usps.gov>:  = >I am unconcerned about the transfer of clustering technology  >to Windows <sub-nom-du-jour>. > > >Rolling doggie doo in rhinestones won't turn it into jewelry.  H Al la Micro$oft, I hereby embrace the notion of jewelry, and extend the J definition to include core fecal components.  Perhaps that explains why a J certain operating system looks slick on the outside, but tends to leave a ' shitty taste in the mouth of its users.    ws   --  1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>    Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:53:02 GMTa+ From: "Nikita V. Belenki" <public@kits.net>p? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to OracleP8 Message-ID: <iUwn6.365$Up.17662@sea-read.news.verio.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Gt4YPj0rHXjp@eisner.encompasserve.org...o  1 > After all, Compaq is very pro NT/W2K was that atE > big slip-up leaving out NT/W2K?  When pigs fly!!  Think about it... G > just how easy is it to undo all the 64-bit stuff in the Tru64 DLM andn) > make sure it runs right under W2K/IA32?.  2 Does it really matter? VMS buyers will finance it.   Kit.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:03:53 -0500& From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: DCL content (long)o5 Message-ID: <Wstn6.1417$O1.4095@wagner.videotron.net>v  H > Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME keywordE > work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get forn > other than the local node.   ???c  " $ say f$gets("arch_name","kronos") Alphaw" $ say f$gets("arch_name","pallas") VAX  --   Sytrem  http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  I "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> a crit dans le messageu( news: 3A9D6479.58622E48@earthlink.net...( > paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote: > >:H > Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME keywordE > work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get forn > other than the local node. >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systemsn > http://www.djesys.com/ >t< > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/, >cH > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. >oB > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. >OH > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:59:30 +0000l  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: DCL content (long)tH Message-ID: <OF12B73D42.B8F4E1FB-ON80256A02.00579FC9@qedi.quintiles.com>  I Which version did you try it on?  It doesn't work on another cluster nodei in v7.1-1H2.......  7 Sylterm (syltrem at videotron dot ca) wrote/responded :CK >>>> Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME keyword E > work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get forc > other than the local node.   ???a  " $ say f$gets("arch_name","kronos") Alphar" $ say f$gets("arch_name","pallas") VAXi <<<o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:41:51 -0500& From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: DCL content (long) 5 Message-ID: <MUun6.1736$O1.6348@wagner.videotron.net>   
 OVMS 7.2-1  * I don't have another cluster to try it on. --   Sytrem  http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  : <steven.reece@quintiles.com> a crit dans le message news:= OF12B73D42.B8F4E1FB-ON80256A02.00579FC9@qedi.quintiles.com...h >oK > Which version did you try it on?  It doesn't work on another cluster nodeg > in v7.1-1H2....... > 9 > Sylterm (syltrem at videotron dot ca) wrote/responded :wE > >>>> Another "wish list" item for me would be to have the ARCH_NAME4 keyword5G > > work between cluster nodes. For now, HW_NAME is all you can get foru > > other than the local node. >u > ???u >u$ > $ say f$gets("arch_name","kronos") > Alphao$ > $ say f$gets("arch_name","pallas") > VAX  > <<<  >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:29:49 +01000= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> ' Subject: Re: DEC Alpha's - FREE T-Shirti) Message-ID: <3A9E78FD.933984A4@gtech.com>P   Scott Vieth wrote:B > Supply and demand in the used market changes too quickly to post > accurate pricesg > on a website.w   ????  F Only if the web-site is based on mid-90's technology (static web-pages? edited with a HTML-editor and uploaded) *AND* the web-editor isc relative lazy.    F > I don't shop web pages for Storageworks parts.  We're running a very > large enterprise on thesew8 > systems, not a little DEC 3000 in somebody's basement.  ) Do you have anything against DEC 3000's ?   < It may be  avery big enterprise you are running, but you are running it old-fashioned.   H Many people (including me) look around on the web-pages. And find 1 or 2G that looks cheap and contact them. Unless there are significant reasonsdA to do otherwise, then companies with no prices on their web-sites $ gets dropped on that criteria alone.   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:02:38 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: Docs for PMAGB-J frame buffer?l6 Message-ID: <youn6.12$Kf6.213@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  S In article <3A9DE346.74BEDC55@e-farm.com>, Jerry Hudgins <jerry@e-farm.com> writes:qC :I've recently come into possession of a PMAGB-J TURBOchannel framekE :buffer.  Does anyone have a pointer to documentation on this device?i- :Anyone have any specs or details on its use?p  H   TX device name.  True color, 24 plane, non-accellerated, old versions I   of Tru64 UNIX and RISC ULTRIX only, no OpenVMS AFAIK.  DECstation 5000  G   MIPS, DEC 3000 series Alpha.  TURBOchannel.  No Open3D support.  You nG   might find some documentation around via a Google search, I have not t.   acquired a wealth of TURBOchannel manuals...  N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:52:33 +0010p% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aul0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later5 Message-ID: <01K0P0EDJ0CY00AICB@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>a  
 Kit wrote,  7 >"Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message ' >news:3A9DB85B.5B8D9B84@infopuls.com...  >mG >> > When working with dynamically allocated memory structures, pointerh >arithmeticd >> > and handling is a must. >> *Only* in C/C++.M >nH >*Everywhere* on the current hardware. If *you* are writing the library  >thatiD >does memory management and hides pointer arithmetic from the other 	 >parties.      Really a reply to Christof.e  H I may have misread what you are saying, but I would hazard a guess that K VAXman and a few others here could do the Full Monty in macro (even lycra)  K without twitching a G-string.  (It's that bloody Sydney Mardi Gras weekend  2 coming up -- what a thing to be world famous for).  K All languages can be simulated at a lower level, the ultimate is assembler rK (macro).  All languages have a "depth" purpose and C tries to get as close oA to the bone as possible.  Many of us do not have a need for that.t  G Regarding foot-shooting: read Andrew Koenig's (spelling?) "C traps and aJ Pitfalls."  He was a Ma Bell worker with similar renown to the other guys  whose names are bandied around.g   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiac   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people, ; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.@   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:07:52 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y4vgptzwk7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:r  C > The software which controls the space shuttle is written in Ada. i  t No, it is written in HAL/S.t  E > I don't think DEC ever shipped a VAX as small as the computers that  > shuttle software runs on.     J Physically? For sure. Performance? An 11/725 probably comes close, and has much worse I/O performance.>  E > By small, I'm taking RAM size, but I think CPU speed is near 11/780e- > in orders of magnitude.  No disks are used.g  K But they have these funky "mass storage units", tapes that look like disks.u Shades of the TU-58, I gather.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:16:13 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y4snkxzw6a.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:r  O > Is Java a compiled language, or a run-time environment ? Doesn't Java executeEM > in its own virtual machine with lots of support from the Java engine ? Doest, > this qualify as a true compiled language ?   Yes.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:19:32 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>+0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y4pug1zw0r.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   M > In that case, the language best suited is the one that interfaces best withe > those routines.   F As they all compile down to the same machine code, it is a quality-of-E implementation issue whether this is a problem or not. VMS has alwaystE made interoperablity of languages easy; I was very surprised to learnr8 that almost all other systems make this quite difficult.  K > If those routines were written with C formats for strings etc, then usingtN > Pascal ill just make your life harder because you have to constantly convertB > pascal strings into null terminated strings before passing them.  C Or define the interface in such a way that the compiler can do thisr automatically.    I > Similarly, using C to call system services on VMS is somewhat of a pain * > because descriptors are not native to C.  9 Again, a little footwork up front will make this trivial.e   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:38:23 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y4n1b5zv5c.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:0  N > Secondly, portability is a no issue. If you strive for portability you will I > have to solve a lot and very different problems than using a/the C/C++ h
 > library.  L Nonsense. Partablility in all its colours is _the_ issue. Why did IBM inventF S/370? To achieve portability. Why were "higher" programming langaugesL invented? To achieve portability. Why were OSes invented? X windows? Tcl/Tk? Posix? and so on...r  L I can tell you from personal experince that if you haven't made at least oneL application run on about half a dozen platforms, you haven't had a chance toN understand what your programming language (we're talking C, C++, Fortran, Ada,N Pascal, ... here) really means, what is part of the standardized semantics and0 what is implementation dependent. Very sobering.   	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:54:07 -0000' From: "LJEB" <LJEB@somewhere.out.there>r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later) Message-ID: <97ld8a$e1e$1@soap.pipex.net>   1 "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> wrote in messagew* news:97j900$ppc@dispatch.concentric.net...I > > >         2. SWITCH/CASE doesn't auto-break.  I NEVER depend on beingr ableH > > >            to fall through to the next CASE in a SWITCH statement. The I > > >            default should be BREAK and allow specifying CONTINUE ifr youe@ > > >            want to drop through.  THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!! > >- > > I would have to say NO!- > > E > > I use this feature from time to time, and when needed it can veryo useful,bL > > and saves unnecessary tests and duplicated code. Apart from that I thinkL > > that I cannot remember when a missing "break" caused me any problems the" > > last time, it was so long ago. > >1A > > Also "continue" has a completely defined and simple function.t > >eG > BREAK could be defined to only deal with loops too, but it is used in < > SWITCH/CASE.  There is no reason CONTINUE couldn't be usedB > as well.  My point is only that the NORMAL use is to BREAK afterE > a case rather than dropping down.  The default should always be thed- > normal usage, not the exception in my view.f >t  G I understand what you are getting at here, and to some degree, I agree.GH For instance when I use this fall through I nearly always have a comment with:p     /* DON'T BREAK HERE */J So the next programmer knows for certain that I want to carry on, and that it was not an omission.h  K It is likely that my use of C has something to do with my outlook, a lot ofrI work that I do is handling and decoding data feeds (e.g.: processing datapL received from stock exchanges). Just like the washing machine example postedH here, there are often places where you need to select a start point, and5 then continue until the end or an exception it found.4   Also I use the following a lot:        switch( value )n     {a     case    value_a:     case    value_b:     case    value_c:     case    value_d:0         /* common code for this set of values */         break;       case    value_e:     case    value_f:0         /* common code for this set of values */         break;       default:         break;     }S  K For me having to remember to add all the appropriate CONTINUE statements isi) just as bad as you see the opposite view.    > > > H > > >         3. BREAK.  Break should be allowed from ALL Begin/End ({})L > > >            constructs (including IF ELSE).  You should also be able toK > > >            BREAK # where # is the number of Begin/End blocks you wanta! > > >            to break out of.  > >aK > > Sorry but this is about the most horrible suggestion for any language I  > have > > ever seen. >rI > The thing a language should do is provide the tools to make the code asm > simpleJ > as possible.  Many times you get inside of something and you really want to > getcG > out of multiple levels.  If the point is that the BREAK # has to be al
 > constantH > number rather than a variable, I agree entirely.  However, setting and	 > testingwK > flags to exit levels makes for more code and makes bugs more likely.  The J > real problem is not when you are writing the code, but when someone elseL > comes along to maintain the code and misses the flags.  Here's an example: >o >     for (i = 0, i < 10; i++)	 >       {t         if( other_condition )n'         {    /* see trailing comment */o%     >       if (condition[i] == TRUE)o     >          {&     >          for (j = 0; j < 5; j++)     >             {mC     >              if  (stuff[j] == FALSE) break 3    // Get me oute     >             }      >          }F         }    /* it become too easy to break with a simple additions */ >     }a >oF > I know the example is simplistic, but if expanded into more involvedH > code, the value of the contruct becomes more clear.  The truth is thatK > I would probably have made the inner loop a function call and the problemwG > goes away.  What I am saying is that occasionally, I would like to behD > able to leave more than a single BEGIN/END.  Also, I would like toF > be able to leave an IF or ELSE BEGIN/END early sometimes to simplify > the code.1  L As you said, normally you put this inner loop into a function. The fact thatL you cannot do the break# thing, in my view actually forces the programmer to& write code that is easier to maintain.  L As many of the faults you and other see with this language are that they letJ programmers write code that is difficult to maintain, this  addition would9 just give your novice another way to write horrible code.   G Adding something that you might occasionally us, would not stop it from H being abused to a point that it would soon be regarded as something that should never have been there.s  L Personally I think that GOTO should just be removed from the language (or atJ least make compilers complain about it use). I have not even wanted to useL all the time I have written in C/C++, and the only times I have seen it usedH was because a routine was just too big (ie: should have been broken down into proper functional units).  	 Laurence.3   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 08:41:37 -0500C- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <Yz2tUNalec7h@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <97jfrt$l7u$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > K > In the statement above I put it in quotes to try to force the implicationuJ > that I was using it n the english and not the technical sense.  When oneJ > is reading a statement in english and encounters the "=" symbol they say1 > equals regardless of which meaning is intended.-  F Nonsequitur.  We're talking about programming languages.  English need. not apply.  Only technical facts are relavent.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:48:35 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)v0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <97ljvj$1p33$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3A9D58D3.92B3B87A@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> Bob Koehler wrote:AF |> > Really?  Then why is it I've got tons of Java with massive use ofM |> > dynamically allocated memory structures working quite well in a language " |> > which does not have pointers? |> o; |> Is Java a compiled language, or a run-time environment ?   H Java is a compiled language.  The Java Virtual Machine has nothing to doH with wether or not this is true.  Unless you somhow believe that becauseH it ran in the P-machine somehow UCSD Pascal was not a compiled language.K Yes, Java, Byte Code and the JVM are just the UCSD Pascal idea re-invented.g  P |>                                                          Doesn't Java executeJ |> in its own virtual machine with lots of support from the Java engine ?   M It does.  And for political reasons Sun wanted to keep it this way.  But theycL lost.  GNU has a native mode java compiler.  But even that is not germane toM the argument.  The Java Virtual Machine is an architecture just like any realAL machine.  Byte Code is it's machine language.  Using your argument, when youM run any compiler on the CHARON emulator they are not really compilers becausetN they don't generate object code for the host machine and they run in a virtual machine.  N |>                                                                        Does- |> this qualify as a true compiled language ?d   As much as any other.D   bill   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   B   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 08:50:50 -0500o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <ryU2h$7jNtop@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3A9D58D3.92B3B87A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:D >> Really?  Then why is it I've got tons of Java with massive use ofK >> dynamically allocated memory structures working quite well in a language"  >> which does not have pointers? > O > Is Java a compiled language, or a run-time environment ? Doesn't Java executerM > in its own virtual machine with lots of support from the Java engine ? DoesA, > this qualify as a true compiled language ?  = Java is compiled to portable bytecode, and implies a run-timenH environment.  The environment depends on context (the environment for anC Applet is more restircted than the environment for an application).o  N > Also, if there is no concept of pointers in Java, do they allow you to cheatG > and specify pointers to be passed when you call system services etc ?.  G No.  You have to pass arrays.  Frequently I find myself creating arrayslH of 1 element just so I can pass data back through a method argument when2 passing only via the return value is insufficient.  E None of the built in classes in the Java environments would require am pointer construct.    H Calls to other environments via the JNI are most easily handled by C/C++D (just because the JNI generates C/C++ code) where conversion betweenF pointers and arrays is natural.  To a VMS system service, for example,E there's no difference between a C pointer and a C array address since F both pass the address of the data.  IIRC some JNI helper functions useC pointers, but again you may be able to actually use C array syntax.t  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationa= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 08:52:24 -0500a- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)T0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <WklYL9xT+ox2@eisner.encompasserve.org>D  \ In article <3A9D7B05.1381D3B8@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > K > You should check my headers. You would see this is posted with netscape, e > on a macintosh.-  ; You should check your browser, you can turn that trash off.i  rF ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying"   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 08:54:12 -0500B- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <nLfra5cJVcKD@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  o In article <c4I6TOxIXw24@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:o^ > In article <3A9D58D3.92B3B87A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > J > Java is a programming language.  Sun has a compiler that produced normal8 > object code for their operating system.  VMS does not. >   G I thought that was one of the points against in suit Sun won, MicrosofteF could generate native code and Sun held that counter to the Java spec.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationi= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying'   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:52:10 GMTi1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <97lk6a$1p33$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3A9D5D59.F09FC122@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> One thing about C:n |> tL |> I find that I don't entirely trust the C compiler. As a result, when I doO |> anything where I have any doubts on how the compiler will react, I will test 6 |> the module extensively to ensure it works reliably. |> 2K |> If someone blindly trusts the compiler, then that person is beggging foreN |> problems in C. But if you don't trust the compiler and test everything, you- |> probably end up with more robust programs.   H Why would you not trust one compiler any more than another??  This makesH absolutely no sense.  Are you saying that just because the language is CF the guys in the DEC Compiler Engineering Group are somehow sloppier orJ more careless??  I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler based= solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is.o   bill   -- yJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 09:21:46 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <ZDsZwRGKoAEm@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <y4vgptzwk7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:i > D >> The software which controls the space shuttle is written in Ada.  >  c > No, it is written in HAL/S.J >   G There are two independently developed systems from different sites with D different contractors.  This is supposed to prevent any one software mistake from showing up twice.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingh   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 16:12:34 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>a0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y47l29frq5.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:n  I > I thought that was one of the points against in suit Sun won, MicrosoftnH > could generate native code and Sun held that counter to the Java spec.  K IIRC, the point of the suit was that MS's "Java" failed the compliance testiJ because the code generator didn't restrict the processor to the 32-/64-bitM IEEE subset required by the spec (something that is difficult to get right ino; any compiler) "in the interest of performance" or somesuch.-   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 16:13:48 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y44rxdfro3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:n  ; > I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler basedv? > solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is.i  H Is somebody willing and able to post a DIR/SIZE of ADA.EXE, DECC.EXE and
 DECXX.EXE?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:16:07 +0000o- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later/ Message-ID: <3A9E67B7.3B3493BC@herald.ox.ac.uk>t   JF Mezei wrote: I > Similarly, using C to call system services on VMS is somewhat of a paino* > because descriptors are not native to C.   They're just structs?r  B Anyway, perversely enough if you go back to the horrors of FORTRANG (where I spend a considerable amount of my paid time) you find - lo and H behold - that the compiler effects the passing of a string by descriptor all by itself. Sweet.B         CALL SYS$SETPRN('Wibble'):   -- / http://i.am/getting_married , ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 16:16:05 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>.0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterH Message-ID: <y41yshfrka.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:    > > No, it is written in HAL/S. I > There are two independently developed systems from different sites with F > different contractors.  This is supposed to prevent any one software  > mistake from showing up twice.  I The PASS (primary avionics software system, or somesuch) is definitely intL HAL/S, and is the only one that has ever flown the thing in practice. As theJ BFS (backup flight system, or somesuch) was available for the first flightJ twenty years ago, I doubt it is in Ada, and it has never flown a shuttle. @ (They were one failure away once on an early flight, I believe.)   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:22:46 -0500E" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301101812.01a1ded8@24.8.96.48>  1 At 03:00 AM 3/1/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:I >Dan Sugalski wrote: > > 6 > > At 12:22 AM 2/28/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:E > > >I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impressionrE > > >that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structuresiD > > >and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.C > > >To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures isiC > > >in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easynE > > >way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how it & > > >is built up. Do I miss something? > >nL > > Apparently, yes. It's dead-simple to build up complex data structures inL > > perl, and generally simpler to extend them at runtime than in most other > > languages. > H >With extending I meant statically extending them because of additional  >requirements.   That's trivial as well._  K >And about understanding complex data structures: How do you find out what aI >type a certain hash element has if you have deeply nested hashes and/or p >arrays (lists of lists)?s  L Generally I read the documentation. I find that's the best way to deal with J things. Runtime introspection is certainly possible, and straightforward, G but if you're not sure of things when you write the code, no amount of B& runtime snooping is going to help any.   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evenv;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 10:40:30 -0500c- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <Y$aqbQdRtYFw@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  C    The following simple little C program has a security hole a milek    wide in it.  H    I know I could plug the hole.  I also know a lot of C programmers who7    can't see the hole and have no idea that it's there.   E    I know I could massage this to get through a C++ compiler, so this !    critisism also applies to C++.n  H    I know I need a lot of technical information to take advantage of the    hole.  F    Most importantantly I know of no other language in which this is so6    easy to do, or so hard to see.  Which is the point.     #include <stdio.h> #include <stdlib.h>    main ()  { 
    FILE *inp;b    char buffer[81];a
    int count;       inp = fopen("indata","r");n      if (inp == NULL)i    {&       perror("unable to open indata");       exit(0);    }  %    count = fscanf(inp, "%s", buffer);     if (count != 1)    {,       fprintf(stderr,"where's the data?\n");       exit(0);    }      printf("%s\n",buffer);o   }o   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 16:05:35 GMTN1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <97ls0f$1tg2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  H In article <y44rxdfro3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J  Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |> t> |> > I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler basedB |> > solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is. |>  K |> Is somebody willing and able to post a DIR/SIZE of ADA.EXE, DECC.EXE andu
 |> DECXX.EXE?o  8 what does the size of those files have to do with it??    B Assuming you admit that Ada, as a language is more complex than C,; then the compiler is equally more complex.  Surely there isoA additional complecity in all those features that C does not have.w   bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:58:51 -0500j2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0103011158520001@user-2ive7nq.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <97lk6a$1p33$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:    J > Why would you not trust one compiler any more than another??  This makesJ > absolutely no sense.  Are you saying that just because the language is CH > the guys in the DEC Compiler Engineering Group are somehow sloppier orL > more careless??  I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler based? > solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is.-  I One point in Ada's favor:  the language has always had an extensive suite I of vaildation tests.  Some subtle bugs have slipped through, which shouldeH then lead to additions to the validation suite.  The expectation is thatD any production Ada compiler passes the entire suite, on the specificE platform in question.  This is rather more than most languages offer,n AFAIK.   -- : Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:11:01 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <97lvr5$ku3@dispatch.concentric.net>  K > We get used to a certain syntax in a certain context. Just as DCL makes ai > difference between = and ==.  ? One of the nice things about BLISS (eql, neq, lss, gtr, etc...)r  9 One of the BAD things about C is all the coding shortcutsh# (like (?:) and pre/post decrement).   D It seems to me that this discussion has pointed out that much of ourA individual philosophies about programming enters into how we feeldC about language features along with past/present frustrations with a A language.  I also suspect that how much experience we have with a 4 language makes a difference in how we feel about it.  I It would be interesting to have a discussion about programming philosophy B and see how the Ada versus C/C++ discussion correlates to people's6 philosophy about how to write code in the first place.     Rick Cadruvi...r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:08:03 -0500a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0103011208040001@user-2ive7nq.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y44rxdfro3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  5 > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:s > = > > I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler based-A > > solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is.n > J > Is somebody willing and able to post a DIR/SIZE of ADA.EXE, DECC.EXE and > DECXX.EXE?    " ADA.EXE;1              19590/19593! ACS.EXE;1               4072/4077   " CXX$COMPILER.EXE;3     16805/16857  CXX$DEMANGLE.EXE;4        30/144  CXX$LINK.EXE;3            87/144   DECC$COMPILER.EXE;1t"                        12517/12528  ! FORT$MAIN.EXE;1         9126/9126A  " F90$MAIN.EXE;1         14025/14031   All somewhat out of date...>  
 ACS> show vero7 DEC Ada V3.4-2 with the Professional Development Option   	 $ cxx/vers, Compaq C++ V6.2-035 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2   $ cc/ver& DEC C V5.7-004 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2  ! DIGITAL Fortran 77 X7.1-156-337CGv  ! DIGITAL Fortran 90 X7.1-574-337CGe  I In particular, I'm pretty sure that C++ has grown significatly since this  one was current.    > By this measure, "orders of magnitude" doesn't look realistic.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comr   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:20:21 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <97m0cl$kve@dispatch.concentric.net>  B True.  I am always amazed at the failure of programmers, even when
 instructedC to isolate OS depencenies, to understand what things are dependent.d  J Besides writing code that runs on several platforms, try writing code that willC work in USER and KERNEL mode and all of a sudden the liberal use of C C runtime libraries goes away.  This actually points out one of them strengths ofK a language like C or BLISS.  They don't have a lot of builtin features.  Asy aCJ result, you can do a LOT, but you have to write more code to do so than inB other languages.  That's why C is not well suited for applications development," but quite suited for Systems work.     Rick Cadruvi...       L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y4n1b5zv5c.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...- > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:- >-J > > Secondly, portability is a no issue. If you strive for portability you willJ > > have to solve a lot and very different problems than using a/the C/C++ > > library. >eG > Nonsense. Partablility in all its colours is _the_ issue. Why did IBM  inventH > S/370? To achieve portability. Why were "higher" programming langaugesF > invented? To achieve portability. Why were OSes invented? X windows? Tcl/Tk?m > Posix? and so on...t >eJ > I can tell you from personal experince that if you haven't made at least one:K > application run on about half a dozen platforms, you haven't had a chancep toK > understand what your programming language (we're talking C, C++, Fortran,h Ada,L > Pascal, ... here) really means, what is part of the standardized semantics ando2 > what is implementation dependent. Very sobering. >o > JanA   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:38:44 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <97m1f4$ku3@dispatch.concentric.net>  D Your point only goes to the C libraries and NOT the language itself.G You could certainly make the point that unthinking use of the libraries B is a problem.  It may also be true that other languages don't have  such hacks for library routines.  @ Maybe the reason I don't have troubles with C is I don't use the7 library routines much in real code, just test programs.    rick...   : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Y$aqbQdRtYFw@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > E >    The following simple little C program has a security hole a milef >    wide in it. >tJ >    I know I could plug the hole.  I also know a lot of C programmers who9 >    can't see the hole and have no idea that it's there.h > G >    I know I could massage this to get through a C++ compiler, so thisf# >    critisism also applies to C++.r >oJ >    I know I need a lot of technical information to take advantage of the
 >    hole. >-H >    Most importantantly I know of no other language in which this is so8 >    easy to do, or so hard to see.  Which is the point. >o >  > #include <stdio.h> > #include <stdlib.h>s >f	 > main ()n > {c >    FILE *inp;C >    char buffer[81];  >    int count;a >t >    inp = fopen("indata","r");i >a >    if (inp == NULL)n >    {( >       perror("unable to open indata"); >       exit(0); >    } >n' >    count = fscanf(inp, "%s", buffer);i >    if (count != 1) >    {. >       fprintf(stderr,"where's the data?\n"); >       exit(0); >    } >l >    printf("%s\n",buffer);e >h > }r   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:47:16 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <97m1v4$l0g@dispatch.concentric.net>  6 I'm not sure what the point is with size of compilers.= Most of the size of the code for a compiler isn't necessarilyE@ related to the complexity of the language.  Compilers use tables? for parsing/lexical analysis.  The tricky part of compilers and 1 what tends to add size is the code optimizations.   ; The more a language does checking of syntax and constructs, < the more it relies on data it gets from the sources/includes (hidden or otherwise).  ? Compiler size has very little if anything to do with complexity B of the language.  Run-time support may.  The best thing to look at@ would be image size for similar tasks having the runtime support? linked in without using shareable images.  Better yet, keep thel? task to something done without using libraries and see how mucha3 extra stuff the compiler throws in the final image.u     Rick...,  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagewF news:rdeininger-0103011208040001@user-2ive7nq.dialup.mindspring.com...J > In article <y44rxdfro3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: >m7 > > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:u > >d? > > > I would be more likely to mistrustt he Ada compiler based-C > > > solely on the several orders of magnitude more complex it is.  > >oL > > Is somebody willing and able to post a DIR/SIZE of ADA.EXE, DECC.EXE and > > DECXX.EXE? >e > $ > ADA.EXE;1              19590/19593# > ACS.EXE;1               4072/4077m >h$ > CXX$COMPILER.EXE;3     16805/16857" > CXX$DEMANGLE.EXE;4        30/144" > CXX$LINK.EXE;3            87/144 >i > DECC$COMPILER.EXE;1u$ >                        12517/12528 >+# > FORT$MAIN.EXE;1         9126/9126D >y$ > F90$MAIN.EXE;1         14025/14031 >h > All somewhat out of date...o >s > ACS> show vere9 > DEC Ada V3.4-2 with the Professional Development Optiona >t > $ cxx/verw. > Compaq C++ V6.2-035 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2 >n
 > $ cc/ver( > DEC C V5.7-004 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2 >f# > DIGITAL Fortran 77 X7.1-156-337CG  > # > DIGITAL Fortran 90 X7.1-574-337CGn >tK > In particular, I'm pretty sure that C++ has grown significatly since thish > one was current. >i >i@ > By this measure, "orders of magnitude" doesn't look realistic. >c > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:10:14 -0500i9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <vXnXTtygtmov@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  c In article <Y$aqbQdRtYFw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:A > E >    The following simple little C program has a security hole a milex >    wide in it. > J >    I know I could plug the hole.  I also know a lot of C programmers who9 >    can't see the hole and have no idea that it's there.a > G >    I know I could massage this to get through a C++ compiler, so thisc# >    critisism also applies to C++.l  E If you could massage this to get through a C++ compiler, then perhaps D the only relevant criticism of C++ is that it allows a programmer to@ "drop into" ordinary C programming (or perhaps not, I don't know1 enough C to be a judge of that for your example).a  H But certainly the ability to "drop into" ordinary C is a major complaintH about C++ from the safe language advocates.  Some Ada compilers have theF ability to generate explicit assembler instructions, but it is such anG odd looking piece of code, and so unportable, that it is less likely to0 be used.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 11:10:11 +0100 * From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?j* Message-ID: <3a9e2003$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  X In article <3A9DBDF4.A3D41E43@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: >Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  >> s6 >> "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes: >> e5 >> > I think Tru64, like VMS is Compaq's own product.  >> rQ >> Coming as it does from OSF/1 (which was its (close to) original name), I thinkiP >> the OSF is still collecting a license fee for every copy sold. Motif as well,
 >> I presume., >da >If Motif still costs something although it is open source now VMS will be loaded with that also.o  D No. Not VMS. The DECwindows-MOTIF License (for VMS) will cover this.  E I admit, you buy nowadays OpenVMS systems with OpenVMS Licences and aaC couple of other licenses (like NAS or VMScluster, ...) bundled, but-> you must include every single license in your support contract( on its own (if you want support for it).   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888f< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 11:16:43 +0100d* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?r( Message-ID: <3a9e218b@news.kapsch.co.at>  o In article <LiaHbpqS+h2s@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: / >Motif is free only for free operating systems.   E Then how comes, that LINUX (distributions) contains KDE and not CDE ?e   -- e< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888i< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 11:23:34 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?tH Message-ID: <y4bsrlzt21.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:r  J > Exactly what I thought. This invalidates the argument further up in the J > thread that Q would get all the reveneus from VMS because it is its own.   Motif is a seperate product.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 08:47:24 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? 3 Message-ID: <g5NvaSNebe5D@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  U In article <3a9e218b@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:eq > In article <LiaHbpqS+h2s@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s0 >>Motif is free only for free operating systems. > G > Then how comes, that LINUX (distributions) contains KDE and not CDE ?e  0 I said Motif was free on free operating systems.  5 I did not say CDE was free on free operating systems.    ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 08:45:14 -0600& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?t, Message-ID: <m3y9upa6px.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  ( On 6 Adar 5761, Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  5 > In article <LiaHbpqS+h2s@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i= > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:a0 >>Motif is free only for free operating systems. > G > Then how comes, that LINUX (distributions) contains KDE and not CDE ?{  A CDE is a separate issue again, I believe.  And Motif is not "freecF enough" to be distributed with many Linux distros (definition of "freeB enough" being, that nobody would care if it was used in a non-freeC operating system, among other things).  That's why Lesstif is still  quite popular. -- N" Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily ***15 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***s -- 6th of Adar, 5761u --@ They will only cause the lower classes to move about needlessly.6 		-- The Duke of Wellington, on early steam railroads.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:57:44 GMTd1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au>  Subject: Re: Gospel of the Tux7 Message-ID: <s2pn6.359$CN.61535@nostril.pacific.net.au>E  " Mark E. Levy <mark@fsi.net> wrote: > Gospel of Tux unearthedo  H > Every generation has a mythology. Every millenium has a doomsday cult.I > Every legend gets the distortion knob wound up until the speaker melts. H > Archeologists at the University of Helsinki today uncovered what couldB > be the earliest known writings from the Cult of Tux, a fanaticalI > religious sect that flourished during the early Silicon Age, around the # > dawn of the third millenium AD...i   > The Gospel of Tux (v1.1)  . > In the beginning Turing created the Machine.  
 ...snip...  J > And the Systems and their Corporations replicated and grew numerous uponD > the earth. In those days there were IBM and Digital, Burroughs andJ > Honeywell, Unisys and Rand, and many others. And they each kept to theirG > own System, hardware and software, and did not interchange, for theirbF > Licences forbade it. This was the Second Age, the age of Mainframes.  A 	Very good :-). However, a slight nitpick : Unisys is anachronismaA 	here, as it was created, if I recall correctly, by the merger ofpA 	Burroughs and Sperry. So in this case, "Unisys" should be repla-I@ 	ced by "Sperry" in the text, IMHO. ( Not as if I touched any of3 	these brands, always worked with DEC machines... )s  
 ...snip... 				Cheers,		Csaba  I    ----------------------------------------------------------------------bE    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush.iI    ----------------------------------------------------------------------s;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:55:37 GMT-  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>M Subject: Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a web pag e? 8 Message-ID: <3mos9tg1cbb80vaupkgilr598us94971bj@4ax.com>  > On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:39:40 -0500, "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)"  <John.C.Koska@bender.com> wrote:   >> -----Original Message----- G >> From: hamilton@encompasserve.org [mailto:hamilton@encompasserve.org] + >> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:10 AM? >> To: Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comI >> Subject: Re: How to get Polycenter Performance Advisor Graphs to a webi >> page? >> h >> Hi Scott, >> nD >> Do you have a strict requirement for producing the output in JPEG >> (as opposed to, say, PDF)?g >>  I >> If not, then consider using Ghostscript for producing PDF.  We produced? >> daily performance "charts and graphs", and serve them up on h >> our corporate= >> intranet using CSWS for OpenVMS.  No need to resort to u$ d >> stuff, and it s= >> works fine - it showcases the OS nicely to folks who have l >> trouble saying G >> "VMS" (You mean the mainframe?  MVS?? Isn't that a legacy system???)0 >> 0 >> :-) >> iG >> I've also used CSV to produce graphs using Excel, but the process issH >> labor-intensive, at best, and frustrating until you learn how to tell5 >> Excel how to group the data for graphing purposes.h >> e >> Brad Hamilton >iE >Oops!  It is as Brad said pretty much. (Got Brad's post much later.)c >.E >You can pick to produce PDF or view PS at desktop.  For me, we just  @ >decided to forego producing PDF and simply view the postscript. >  >:) jck     F I've used ImageMagick DISPLAY to view the .ps file and then re-save as .jpg for inclusion in a report.f   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 11:06:33 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>5E Subject: Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?1H Message-ID: <y4elwhztue.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> writes:1  = > 1) Why is the BACKUP RESTORE operation so slow? Almost a=20 < > factor of 20 slower than the BACKUP SAVE operation? Are=209 > there qualifiers for BACKUP to enhance the performance?2  M Not enough resources for BACKUP - other processes running which steal working5! set, stop the tape streaming, ...-  5 > 3) Why did BACKUP complain about closing errors and @ > full file headers when the cluster size increases from 4 to 9?  K Lots of small files, disk nearly full will be a problem in this case (thinkdH wasted space because of the larger cluster size - on average, it will be 9/2-4/2=2.5 blocks more).R  ; > 4) (For completeness.) Is it true that the BACKUP messages8 > during a RESTORE operation about increasing INDEXF.SYS9 > is no problem, or should I INIT the disks with a largerg
 > INDEXF.SYS?h  L It's not a problem, espcially since V7.2 (IIRC) improved the algorithm whichJ allocates new space to the index file when it has to grow. However, if youE know how many files are on the volume you are trying to move, you canr8 initialize the volume with the proper amount of headers.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:44:02 -0600a* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?e- Message-ID: <0033000017532147000002L072*@MHS>o  0 =0AI'm not sure I've answered all your questions/ but here are comments about some of them (sincer nobody else has jumped in...)f   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETh, > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:17 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETC > Subject: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?  >  > / > We have a multi volume set of 5 disks for the   > home directories of our users.3 > These are 2GB RZ28 disks. I would like to replace % > them with 5 other 4.3Gb RZ29 disks.t/ > I tried to do it this evening, but it failed,e, > because I don't seem to understand BACKUP. >t > This is what I tried. 0 > Since I have no room in the box for ten disks,, > I first made a saveset on tape (TZ88) with >a: > $ BACKUP /IMAGE/NOALIAS source-disk tape:SAVESET /rewind  
 Why /NOALIAS?a >a2 > This took about 3 hours, not unreasonable, since6 > the disks are about 85% full, which is about 8.5 GB.4 > I dismounted the disks, replaced them with the new3 > disks and tried to restore the saveset onto thesee3 > disks. Since I wanted a cluster size of 4 blocks,-0 > instead of the default 9 blocks, I first did a  8 Unless you've got billions and billions of leetle files,3 (and, if these are user disks, you very well could)c2 a cluster factor of 4 isn't going to help you much   If my math is correcte( (You can find this in HELP INIT /CLUSTER   RZ28 has 4109470 blocksh& For ODS-2 you divide by (255*4096) =3D 3.934464997     =3D 4g  ( For ODS-5 you divide by (65536*2048) =3D 0.015308969  =3D 1   RZ29 has 8378028 blockss& For ODS-2 you divide by (255*4096) =3D 8.021243107     =3D 9   ( For ODS-5 you divide by (65536*2048) =3D 0.0312105869 =3D 1  7 Note:  I've not worked with ODS-5, and besides, VMS 7.2c6 supports large volume bitmaps, which takes care of the* pesky minimum cluster factors under ODS-2.  A Bud of mine here at work built a 12-disk volumeset with a clustero factor of 1 just for grins.c >t" > $ INIT /system /cluster=3D4 DISK >s. > for the 5 new disks. I mounted them /FOREIGN > and tried  >+. > $ BACKUP /image /noinit tape:SAVESET /rewind > dsk1:,dsk2:,dsk3:,dsk4:,dsk5:d   Never tried this.n  3 If you specify a large blocksize when you backup to  tape it'll run better.   See HELP BACKUP /BLOCK_SIZEc >h/ > This worked in principle, although there werei. > messages that BACKUP increased INDEXF.SYS to- > accomodate the files from the source disks. ' > I don't think that this is a problem.   , BACKUP is trying to tell you something here.  / You're not INITing with enough file headers ande. directory entries to make BACKUP happy when it restores from the tape.=  4 If you don't do this properly, then it has to extend9 INDEXF.SYS in the middle of the process and if INDEXF.SYS 9 is  fragmented in a noncontiguous manner then performancer suffers (to put it mildly).-  3 Look at HELP INIT /HEADERS and HELP INIT /DIRECTORYr  ? You'll see a NOTE about the defaults being inadequate for ODS-2l disks.  6 > However, this BACKUP RESTORE operation was extremely7 > slow: after 30 minutes only 80 MB was copied. A quickh3 > calculation told me that it would cost a few days 3 > to complete the operation. Therefore I stopped it  > and tried something else.a >n This is the INDEXF.SYS problem.l  3 > I have room for one additional disk. So I thoughto1 > that maybe a disk-to-disk copy would be faster. . > I placed back the old disks and placed a new2 > disk in the extra position. I again did the INIT > for the new disk and tried9 > $ BACKUP /image/volume=3D1 source-disk new-disk /NOINIT 5 > However, BACKUP did not like the combination of the 3 > /VOLUME and the /NOINIT qualifiers. It complainedp5 > about /VOLUME being inconsistent with the operation  > type.  >l: > So I decided to give up on the non-default cluster size.	 > I triedr1 > $ BACKUP /image/volume=3D1 source-disk new-disk 7 > This seemed to work much faster, however, in about 30o8 > minutes I have seen 6 messages from BACKUP that it had; > a problem to close files because the file header is full.f  8 That's the default INDEXF.SYS biting you in the keister.  ; You *really* should count your files and directories before:< doing an INIT, make a SWAG about how much growth is going to3 occur, and increase your INIT settings accordingly.A  8 I think you're going to have to back up to tape, back up; *the bound volumeset*, put the new disks in, create the newn; volume set with the proper header and directory counts, and.. then restore the tape onto the new volume set.  : > So I don't think that it will work either. I stopped the8 > operation and restored the old situation. I will retry6 > to install the new disks another time, when I have a! > better understanding of BACKUP.5 >16 > So the general question I have is, how does one copy; > (in a reasonable time) the contents of the 5 source disksa7 > to 5 other disks in order to get a logical equivalentr; > multi volume set, if one can have only six of those disks+ > online at a time?  >h+ I've not done it a volume at a time before.   = Tape should work.  If the disks were single volumes you could ? do a round-robin disk-to-disk and only have to go to tape once.pB That can be seriously fast (depending on which bus you're riding).  $ > The specific questions I have are: >o: > 1) Why is the BACKUP RESTORE operation so slow? Almost a5 > factor of 20 slower than the BACKUP SAVE operation?-  
 INDEXF.SYS Area9 > there qualifiers for BACKUP to enhance the performance?s >g' /BLOCKSIZE when going from disk to tapeD  = > 2) Why can't I use the /VOLUME and the /NOINIT qualifier inn3 > one BACKUP COPY operation? Is there a way to do as? > disk-to-disk copy while keeping the cluster size at 4 blocks,r; > even if one cannot have all disks online at thesame time?s >r0 I don't think you can do that with a volume set.  5 > 3) Why did BACKUP complain about closing errors ande@ > full file headers when the cluster size increases from 4 to 9? >   
 INDEXF.SYS  ; > 4) (For completeness.) Is it true that the BACKUP message 8 > during a RESTORE operation about increasing INDEXF.SYS9 > is no problem, or should I INIT the disks with a largery
 > INDEXF.SYS?c >  Bingo.  9 Hope this helps, and I wish I'd done more with volumesetsr? than treat them as one discrete unit when backing up/restoring.h  ? If all else fails, delete some users, not your boss, preferablyo3 those lower down on the food chain than you are. :)f   WWWebb  9 > We run Open VMS 7.2-1. I used an AlphaServer 2100 4/200 3 > with 512 MB memory. These are the process quotas:d >o >  Account name: SYSTEMsH >  CPU limit:                      Infinite  Direct I/O limit:       40= 0-H >  Buffered I/O byte count quota:    199808  Buffered I/O limit:     40= 0GH >  Timer queue entry quota:             250  Open file quota:        51= 22H >  Paging file quota:                197008  Subprocess quota:        4= 0sH >  Default page fault cluster:           64  AST quota:             409= 4aH >  Enqueue quota:                      3000  Shared file limit:       4= 0iH >  Max detached processes:                0  Max active jobs:          = 0h >sH >   Working Set (pagelets)  /Limit=3D10240  /Quota=3D16384  /Extent=3D2= 62144e@ >   Adjustment enabled      Authorized Quota=3D16384  Authorized > Extent=3D262144o >hH >   Working Set (8Kb pages) /Limit=3D640  /Quota=3D1024  /Extent=3D1638= 4 ? >                           Authorized Quota=3D1024  Authorized  > Extent=3D16384 >=   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:17:58 +01001 From: "Tomasz Dryjanski" <tdryjanski@hotmail.com> & Subject: Re: Invalid mail notification. Message-ID: <97l7kt$1913$1@news2.ipartners.pl>  L > I have the following problem: once I had 37 unread mail messages. I made aI > full system disk backup for some purposes and then read and deleted allH > messages.l  ! Thanks guys for all your answers! I read/new fixed the problem - shame on me that I didn't notice this in the  FAQ.   T. D.-   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:03:08 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>r Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90LH Message-ID: <y4y9upzws3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  7 > This makes me a bit afraid to ask what a "VLFI" is...c  0 I conjecture "very large financial institution".  = > > There was an opening for a security guard that afternoon. H > Aw, come on!  They should have fired the guard's boss.  If he was new,F > someone should have showed him the stoopid button he needed to hold.   Agreed.R   	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:52:57 +0100% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>0 Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L. Message-ID: <97ld6q$lkk$1@info.service.rug.nl>  A I work at a nuclear physics laboratory where we have a cyclotron..= Some years ago we needed to do some field measurements and weaE needed a vt100 terminal on top of the cyclotron. When the big magnetslF were turned on, the image on the screen was rotated almost 90 degrees,A so we placed those terminals on their left side and we could workr rather normally.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:08:09 -0600i* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Janitor fixes 90L- Message-ID: <0033000017493855000002L052*@MHS>b  < =0ATwo stories come to mind that I'm *sure* have been put on- the Web somewhere because they are legendary:   , The Purina kennel feeding control system and  4 The Polar Bears and the Point Barrow satellite dish.  7 Someone else would probably retell them better than me.n   WWWebb=    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:21:45 -0500e From: William_Bochnik@acml.com Subject: RE: Janitor fixes 90L> Message-ID: <OFE3C19898.BD9D53D8-ON85256A02.004ED2BC@acml.com>  = Then of course there is the "story" about the scratch monkey.e    i                                                                                                          di                     WILLIAM WEBB                                                                         ri                     <WWEBB1@email                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                              ni                     .usps.gov>                   cc:                                                     ti                                          Subject:     RE: Janitor fixes 90L                              ni                     03/01/2001                                                                            i                     10:08 AM                                                                             Si                                                                                                          Li                                                                                                                   9 Two stories come to mind that I'm *sure* have been put on - the Web somewhere because they are legendary:   , The Purina kennel feeding control system and  4 The Polar Bears and the Point Barrow satellite dish.  7 Someone else would probably retell them better than me.a   WWWebb          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,h@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy # all copies of the original message.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:46:32 GMT,  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L8 Message-ID: <55os9tcrnaugr5lpuadq6cs9ei7573vuk6@4ax.com>  . On 28 Feb 2001 09:10:42 +0100, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  $ >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: >iN >> Then there was the PDP 11/73 (I think - it was the one with the switches onL >> the front) at a company I used to work for, that crashed reliably at 5pm,N >> but only if unattended. The company didn't have space for it in the machineN >> room so had put it in the corridor outside. When the system manager watchedF >> from hiding at 5pm, he saw the secretaries leaving for the day, and1 >> trailing their fingers along the switches.....i >u? >What, the switches weren't disabled? How careless can you get!  >h >	Janu  E Er... I think having the system in the corridor was the main problem.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:56:43 -0500?# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>- Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L+ Message-ID: <3A9E713B.82A0786A@hsc.vcu.edu>    Okay, here's my 2cents worth...P  & We had this really nice DEC engineer..   He used to work for the Washington Star newspaper, they had a PDD-11 of some type running there with to us today an amazing number/ of users on a amazing small amount of memory...a   Ok..  ~ One day, a young girl that he swore was no older than 14 showed up, wanted to work, and was going to beat out the Woodward and= Bernstein pair.. since she really was of age, she signed up..f   The DEC system started dying regularly, and DEC to make a long story short, was getting ready to replace the entire installation,  cpu, cables, terminals, etc...   My friend was ambling around, thinking on his feet.. Saw this lady wearing a wool suit. Somehow, he thought to ask her if she was  wearing silk lingerie..r   She SCREAMS... slaps him silly, and runs in to the ladies room.  He's rubbing his face, and sees her womens libber boss ominiouslyJ coming up... He desperately calls HIS boss, and they have a 3-way meeting.   The libber is techie enough to know where my friend was heading, and goes into the bathroom to calm down the girl and bring her back out.   The guy goes into his computer room and gets a multi-tester, and after reassuring her that it would not hurt her, she measures 130 volts static across her hands.   She said then that she could comb her hair right out of the shower, and still get crackle. I don't know if she was one of the people' that could not wear mechanical watches.l  a The Star agreed to go half in with her on a new wardrobe, as well as opto-isolate her terminal...   8 I know, the way the guy said, it was a lot better... ;-D   Jim-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:12:56 +0100m/ From: Martin Zinser <zinser@sysdev.exchange.de>j/ Subject: Job-Offer: VMS SysMgt @ Stock exchanget2 Message-ID: <3A9E7508.4E34207D@sysdev.exchange.de>   Hello,  D         Deutsche Boerse Systems Inc. is looking for a person to join>         the  system managment group for its Chicago, Il. based         operations.o  A         We do provide electronic platforms for multiple stock andCB         derivatives exchanges  around the world (the largest beingC         the Frankfurt/Germany based exchanges and the Chicago Boardr         of Trade CBoT).d  C         The systems are based on disaster tolerant OpenVMS clusterstA         located in Chicago and Frankfurt using lastest generation 5         AlphaServers and employing a SAN for storage.t  D         If you do have experience with system management in at least@         a medium sized environment (i.e. at least about 30 to 40E         OpenVMS systems to cover) and are interested in this positionNA         please send me private mail for more complete informationg"         about the job in question.  E         For general information about Deutsche Boerse Group you mighte         want to visitl  @         http://deutsche-boerse.com/INTERNET/EXCHANGE/index_e.htm    =                                      Greetings, Martin Zinseri  A Dr. Martin P.J. Zinser                  zinser@sysdev.exchange.de- Deutsche Boerse Systems AG< Neue Boersenstr. 1                      Tel: +1 312 408 3085 60487 FrankfurtwA Germany                                 Private:  zinser@decus.de    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:40:01 -0500r- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Looking for VI emulator for TPU2 Message-ID: <3A9E5131.52930CED@hiyall.zko.dec.com>  F I seem to remember a VI emulator that sits on top of TPU a while back.  E I've checked out the DECUS library, the WKU archives, and the OpenVMST$ Freeware CD but didn't see anything.  + Any hints or pointers would be appreciated.h   -- u John Reagant# Compaq Pascal/AMACRO Project Leaderi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:52:23 -0500h2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPUL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0103011352240001@user-2ive7nq.dialup.mindspring.com>  > In article <3A9E5131.52930CED@hiyall.zko.dec.com>, John Reagan" <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> wrote:  H > I seem to remember a VI emulator that sits on top of TPU a while back. > G > I've checked out the DECUS library, the WKU archives, and the OpenVMSc& > Freeware CD but didn't see anything. > - > Any hints or pointers would be appreciated.   H I've got it.  I was recently trying to find the newer version, but all II found were _references_ to a slightly newer one.  The only one I found inuE the DECUS archives was actually older than the one I have.  I'm still 2 hoping to find the latest, and fold in my changes.  I I can get it to you somehow, but a firewall makes it difficult to make it J available via ftp.  Also, I'm away from work for a few days, so there will be a delay..   Contact me via email...    -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comD   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 15:47:49 GMT=2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <97lqv5$nj8@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ` In article <3a9dde40$1@newsfeed.vitts.com>, "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@ossc.DELETE.net> writes:1 >"John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in messageaL >> How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900J >> O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if >the2 >> OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on. >/ >Well, not necessarily ... >4. >Are you willing to save $825 in exchange for: >l >    blue screens full of hex,& >    unwelcome visits from Dr. Watson, >    mysterious new .chk files,r@ >    regular reboots (in a futile attempt to prevent the above). >s  & That's Windows - there are other OS's.  H On my OpenVMS 7.2-1 DS10 Netscape crashes the X11 server at least once aK month. It was several times a week before I learned to suppress the problemeK (but not eliminate it) by exiting Netscape whenever I wasn't actively using C it. This is not quite as bad as a blue screen but it is exceedinglyFI annoying nonetheless.  I've NEVER crashed either the X11 server or the OSoH on any of my Linux boxes (including those that are Alphas).  And that OSD was free. I've not seen an X11 crash on Irix either, and the only OSJ crashes I've seen, several years ago, were due to an intermittant hardware& error (1x/year, from a memory error.)   L >But then, for $75, you get what you pay for.  And for $1,000,000, you could >have me ;)o  E The evidence that VMS is more reliable any current version of Unix onnG single user workstations is tenuous at best.  In fact, my experience aseJ stated above is that VMS, at least with respect to the X11 server, is thatF VMS is less reliable than Unix.  (There's no question that VMS is more' secure, but that's a different metric.)h  H In summary, VMS, and the hardware it runs on, is grossly overpriced withI respect to the competition.  Unjustifiably so given its current problems  J with tenuous vendor commitment and the nearly complete absence of off the K shelf software to run on it.  Compaq is simply gouging the customers.  And nJ you don't have to go to Linux for a better deal.  Sun manages to do prettyH well and they charge NOTHING for Solaris on systems with <=8 processors,+ and that's for an OS with unlimited users. K   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech hJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:25:26 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>h" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9su0jgohj2k97@news.supernews.com>   = "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@ossc.DELETE.net> wrote in messaget% news:3a9dde40$1@newsfeed.vitts.com...i2 > "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message+ > news:t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com...PJ > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 > > news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ > > > In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco"  > > <sales@islandco.com> writes: > > > > Good point > > > > H > > > > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $900> > > > > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systems > > >d: > > > I think that would be an excellent competitive move,I > > > (even though I am not currently in the market for another machine).I > > H > > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900K > > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive ifl > thef3 > > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.E >e > Well, not necessarily ...  >)/ > Are you willing to save $825 in exchange for:i >r >     blue screens full of hex,?' >     unwelcome visits from Dr. Watson,c  >     mysterious new .chk files,A >     regular reboots (in a futile attempt to prevent the above).m >iG > But then, for $75, you get what you pay for.  And for $1,000,000, youd could  > have me ;) >oJ > In all seriousness, the $75 license also opens a world of other licenses to
 > productsG > that I only wish we had on VMS.  Imagine if you could run all of that  stuff? >R  E The $75 gets you a Solaris license, not Windows.  I'm not saying thatIA Solaris is the equal of VMS, I'm trying to goad Compaq into beingt competitive.  K Who or what is OpenVMS competing against?  It's being beaten by Windows ande# Solaris and I don't understand why.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:42:30 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>W" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9sv0gclkbkva6@news.supernews.com>o  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:tIAXGlP9E8aO@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ > In article <t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:J > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 > > news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org...0? > >> In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco":  > > <sales@islandco.com> writes: > >> > Good pointq > >> >L > >> > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base license for $900= > >> > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systems  > >>9 > >> I think that would be an excellent competitive move,EH > >> (even though I am not currently in the market for another machine). > >rH > > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900K > > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if2 thet3 > > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.- >-B > Islandco is in competition with other vendors, and thanks to theB > Internet, locality of purchase (at least within the US) does notB > count so much any more.  If Islandco offers a cheaper price thanE > their competition for a VMS license, it is a good competitive move.s >e  I Yes, it is a good competitive move by IslandCo.  I wish Compaq would make  some competitive moves.r  C > If you happen to feel that some $75 operating system is the equalc> > of VMS, then by all means purchase it, but some of us cannot2 > think of a $75 operating system of that caliber. >g  H I don't think that Solaris is equal to VMS.  Do you think that VMS is 12 times better than Solaris?  G No one at Sun thinks they're losing money by selling single CPU SolarissJ licenses for $75.  No one at Sun thinks they'll lose money selling the SunL Blade 100 for $995.  Does anyone at Compaq think the DS10 is their bread andE butter?  Do they really think people will stop buying GS140's if theye' offered a $1000 low-end OpenVMS system?b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:30:57 +0100e= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>-" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3A9E7941.CE1A4E2B@gtech.com>V   andrew harrison wrote:> > The article is true but your have drawn the wrong conclusion > from the article.h > ? > The SunBlade 100 costs 995 dollars and has an UltraSPARC CPU.d > ? > You can add a SunPCI card to it which is a PCI card which hasp< > a Intel CPU and RAM to the SunBlade, you run NT/Win2000/98@ > on the card using displaying the resulting desktop in a window+ > in the CDE/Gnome session you are running.d   Aha.  0 And let me guess: that SunPCI card costs extra ?   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:16:29 -0300>) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brD" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <OFA9FCFD14.936A3286-ON03256A02.005EB680@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  2 It does not matter the cost of the SunPCI card....  H In my company there arent DEC workstations anymore - sorry they are bei= ng used as X-Terminals ....  A There are 200 Silicon and SGI machines using Citrix ICA client to- the office stuff ....   5 Because there is no real tech support to Tru64  ! ! !c   What more ??     Regardsf   FC        = Arne Vajh=F8j <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> em 01/03/2001 13:30:57h             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comb      " Assunto: Re: Low cost workstations     andrew harrison wrote:> > The article is true but your have drawn the wrong conclusion > from the article.  >I? > The SunBlade 100 costs 995 dollars and has an UltraSPARC CPU.  > ? > You can add a SunPCI card to it which is a PCI card which hasT< > a Intel CPU and RAM to the SunBlade, you run NT/Win2000/98@ > on the card using displaying the resulting desktop in a window+ > in the CDE/Gnome session you are running.    Aha.  0 And let me guess: that SunPCI card costs extra ?   Arne         =    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:38:18 -0500 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> O Subject: Re: Moose Manure.. (was Re: a little humor for this so often humorless * Message-ID: <3A9E5EDA.CB5B5F6@hsc.vcu.edu>  t We had a Canadian Neurosurgeon who called himself Assemblyman since we were setting up a brain electrical monitor...  / We set his $ sign prompt to "Moose Manure>"....   ( It took him 3 days to figure it out. ;-D   Jim    ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 09:54:24 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t8 Subject: Re: My name is Dean, and I'm a [Un*x|NT] hater.H Message-ID: <y44rxd27jz.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  , eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:  I > without VAXman's SYMBOL package, DCL would not be of great help here...m  N Really? I used to look up such things from a map or via SDA. Before the kernelC was split, those addresses were much more static than they are now.d  , But I agree SYMBOL is a very useful utility.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 09:07:34 -0500m- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COMf3 Message-ID: <3IMzhzjh9KbX@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  M In article <K19ruJ9KhukG@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes:s > Hi,  > 7 > I wrote a little DCL programlet. It's freeware! (GPL): > D > Name:	SIPU  (SImple Patch Utility or Stupid Image Patch Utiliy :-) >   ( Got it.  Looks usefull.  Three comments:  C 1)  Why sipu.txt and aaareadme.txt when both contain the same text?i  : 2)  Unziping the sipu.zip with the latest unzip I got fromD    www.openvms.comaq.com created stral-lf files even though the dataB    was variable length records.  I had to set file/attr=rfm:var onF    both aaaredme.txt and sipu.com.  Perhaps something was skipped when0    you zipped it (I tried unzip and unzip -"V")?  > 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com version5    specific.  Get and use the SYMBOL utility instead.h  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationa= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupsE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying-   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 16:18:30 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>0# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM H Message-ID: <y4y9upecvt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:D  @ > 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com version7 >    specific.  Get and use the SYMBOL utility instead.   F I thought IHD and EIHD symbols are in STARLET or LIB? If not, why not?   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 10:51:28 -0500e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) # Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COMn3 Message-ID: <foEwVzQ0T5Nz@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <y4y9upecvt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > A >> 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com version 8 >>    specific.  Get and use the SYMBOL utility instead. > H > I thought IHD and EIHD symbols are in STARLET or LIB? If not, why not? >  > 	Jan  B And what better way to access them from DCL than SYMBOL?  sipu.com> as posted contains are hard coded copy of the $EIHDDEF module.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingr   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 17:23:44 +0100 ) From: maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis)g# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM ! Message-ID: <7nMzOlL+C0y9@ludens>l  c In article <3IMzhzjh9KbX@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:-O > In article <K19ruJ9KhukG@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes:e >> Hi, >>  8 >> I wrote a little DCL programlet. It's freeware! (GPL) >> 3E >> Name:	SIPU  (SImple Patch Utility or Stupid Image Patch Utiliy :-)s >> t > * > Got it.  Looks usefull.  Three comments: > E > 1)  Why sipu.txt and aaareadme.txt when both contain the same text?s  ( 'kit name'.txt external description file6 aaareadme.txt  internal (within .zip) description file  ? This is the concept of Ludens' freeware archive. Is this wrong?m       > < > 2)  Unziping the sipu.zip with the latest unzip I got fromF >    www.openvms.comaq.com created stral-lf files even though the dataD >    was variable length records.  I had to set file/attr=rfm:var onH >    both aaaredme.txt and sipu.com.  Perhaps something was skipped when2 >    you zipped it (I tried unzip and unzip -"V")?   I'll check it. Sorry.r   > @ > 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com version >    specific.  = Not as wrong as you think. The vms is backward-compatible os,eC so the old image must be run an new os. The content of image header H is undocumented (subject to change without notice) but Compaq should not% change this description very offten. -  * >  Get and use the SYMBOL utility instead.  K And sipu will be depend on SYMBOL. I do not want any unnecessary dependecy.J    A But of course, making sipu to version-independent is nice think. y          H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporations? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group1    H Adam Maulis              maulis@ludens elte hu        VMS system managerH ........................................................................H VMS Competence Center                              VMS Szakertoi KozpontH Eotvos Lorand University                   Eotvos Lorand TudomanyegyetemH Budapest, Hungary                                               BudapestH ========================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 17:31:36 +01002) From: maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis)R# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COMg! Message-ID: <7VxzoC+B33j6@ludens>D   In article <y4y9upecvt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:l > A >> 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com versionD8 >>    specific.  Get and use the SYMBOL utility instead. > H > I thought IHD and EIHD symbols are in STARLET or LIB? If not, why not?   for examplet  : $ lib/extract=$eihddef sys$share:lib.mlb /out=$eihddef.mar    >  > 	Jan    H Adam Maulis              maulis@ludens elte hu        VMS system managerH ........................................................................H VMS Competence Center                              VMS Szakertoi KozpontH Eotvos Lorand University                   Eotvos Lorand TudomanyegyetemH Budapest, Hungary                                               BudapestH ========================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 12:23:41 -0500g- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler):# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COMD3 Message-ID: <e4g9g4DPdxGH@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  M In article <7VxzoC+B33j6@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes: 
 > for example  > < > $ lib/extract=$eihddef sys$share:lib.mlb /out=$eihddef.mar >  c  F Yes, of course.   That gives you the current version.  That makes yourG .com file version dependent.  The values for such symbols have changed u3 in the past and possibly will change in the future.y  A IIRC the SYMBOL utility looks up the current value, so you becomeu version independent.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation.= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:19:27 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br  Subject: New Sun BladeL Message-ID: <OFED9788BE.755B4B40-ON03256A02.0048B98E@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  
 Again. . .  A I will repeat.... Compaq needs to develop a new Compact Alpha ...n  . Or Sun will have the dominance in workstations  I http://www.sun.com/2001-0227/sunblade/;$sessionid$5PNYJJQAABARPAMTA1FU5YQ   S I dont understand why Compaq dont have standard workstations and still refurbishinge; ES-40 and DS-10 and saying they are "unix workstations"....t  ? Compaq is losing this marketing.....or is it already lost ?????v    D Sun, SGI, HP, IBM have standard workstations  to the marketing ! ! !  ? Compaq put a graphical card in one machine and says it is a WS.t   Regardsi   FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:27:12 -0600e* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: New Sun Blade- Message-ID: <0033000017507353000002L032*@MHS>e  C =0AIsn't "Sun Blade" an upcoming film about dead computers starringi Billy Bob Thornton?s   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe) > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 10:05 AMu8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET > Subject: New Sun Blade >  >  > Again. . . >uC > I will repeat.... Compaq needs to develop a new Compact Alpha ...y >m0 > Or Sun will have the dominance in workstations >i@ > http://www.sun.com/2001-0227/sunblade/;$sessionid$5PNYJJQAABAR
 > PAMTA1FU5YQe >sH > I dont understand why Compaq dont have standard workstations and stil= l*8 > refurbishing ES-40 and DS-10 and saying they are "unix > workstations"....  > A > Compaq is losing this marketing.....or is it already lost ?????* >* >*F > Sun, SGI, HP, IBM have standard workstations  to the marketing ! ! ! >-A > Compaq put a graphical card in one machine and says it is a WS.o >m	 > Regards  >j > FC >=   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 09:58:02 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>38 Subject: Re: PCSI kits - where was a specific kit built?H Message-ID: <y41ysh27dx.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  : hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) writes:  A > Well, to be fair, BAKUP is not a software installation utility. % > It captures this for other reasons.n  J Well, both BACKUP and PSCI package a set of files into one other file, andN what they do exactly depends on a lot of switch settings, so knowing (at least6 in part) where you came from is a very useful feature.  I > But... It is not an unreasonable request for PRODUCT PACKAGE to capturem; > this, perhaps as comments in the Product Definition File.    Fine.a   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:55:09 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> = Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATElH Message-ID: <y4hf1dzude.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  K The /BY_REF_CALL is kludge, as is the compiler and linker fixing things fornN you. The real solution is to fix the declaration of the dummy argument - there4 is no reason to use LOGICAL*1 instead of CHARCTER*1.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:30:33 GMTo, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser& Message-ID: <3A9DFAB2.AE765A79@gmx.ch>  1 Gosh! this one was around back in 1983 I think... < (except the f$env("default") wich didn't exist at that time)   D.   Christoph Gartmann wrote:s > ` > In article <3A9D7394.DACCD4EC@mail.clarion.edu>, Clayton Kroh <ckroh@MAIL.CLARION.EDU> writes:N > >I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me  > >the directory tree structure. > >-7 > >Can you recommend one along with where I can get it?t > L > I don't know who originally wrote it, but it has been modified a lot since > then.s >  > $ ! TREE.COM > $ !K > $ ON ERROR THEN GOTO endee > $ wr :== WRITE sys$outputa > $ write_file = "FALSE"
 > $ level = 0e
 > $ null = ""a > $ line = "|-------"n > $ blanks = line  > $ wr null"* > $ sav_default = F$ENVIRONMENT("DEFAULT")+ > $ direct = sav_default ! vorher user_roott+ > $ IF (P1 .NES. "FILE") THEN GOTO no_paramc	 > $param:o. > $    OPEN/WRITE FILE sys$login:graphtree.lis > $    write_file = "TRUE" > $    DEFINE sys$output file  > $no_param:
 > $ wr direct 
 > $ GOTO loop  > $ !M > $ !  > $loop: > $ last = directe$ > $ direct = F$SEARCH("*.DIR",LEVEL)) > $ IF (direct .NES. "") THEN GOTO deeper> > $ GOTO highera > $ ! 
 > $deeper: > $ level = level + 1 7 > $ IF (LEVEL .NE. 1) THEN blanks = "|       " + blankso! > $ vz = F$PARSE(direct,,,"name")h > $ wr blanks + vz > $ SET DEFAULT [.'vz']e
 > $ GOTO loop9 > $ ! 
 > $higher:$ > $ IF (level .EQ. 0) THEN GOTO ende1 > $ IF (last .EQS. "") THEN wr blanks - "-------"n > $ level = level - 1i  > $ blanks = blanks - "|       " > $ SET DEFAULT '[-]'r
 > $ GOTO loopo > $ !  > $ende: > $ wr nullu > $ SET DEFAULT 'sav_default'  > $ IF write_file .EQS. "TRUE" > $    THENd$ > $    DEFINE sys$output sys$command > $    CLOSE file 	 > $ ENDIF, > $ EXIT   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:29:08 GMTd, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser& Message-ID: <3A9E086B.CF023BBE@gmx.ch>   Christoph Gartmann wrote:a  . > $    OPEN/WRITE FILE sys$login:graphtree.lis > $    DEFINE sys$output FILE         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^s  ; I had to wait until I am 50 to discover that THIS exists...a   (yes, I know, the rtfm sez   OPEN   Parameters     logical-name[:]   G        Specifies the logical name and a character string to be assignedl        to the file.0 )o   D.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:32:08 GMT  From: ddellutr@XXXenteract.com. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser+ Message-ID: <97lj0o$mdh$1@bob.news.rcn.net>-  P On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:54:29 -0500, Clayton Kroh <ckroh@mail.clarion.edu> wrote:M > I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me- > the directory tree structure.V   You could use lynx.t   -- h
 Dale Dellutriu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:38:37 GMTh- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)r. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser1 Message-ID: <3a9e88af.566427770@swen.process.com>n  K On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:36:44 GMT, "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>e wrote:   >Clayton Kroh wrote: >> tN >> I am looking for a VMS directory browser such as something that can show me  >> the directory tree structure. >> -7 >> Can you recommend one along with where I can get it?0 >>E >Look for CSwing.  It is a great VT semi-graphical (SMG graphics).  Ik >have found it located here: >. >	ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/narnia/c >tF There's also my FLIST package, which is similar in function to CSWING,D but, IMO, a lot faster and easier to use.  FLIST is written in C andC TPU.  One of its functions includes drawing a directory tree, whichh you can then navigate.  ( ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/fileserv/flist.zip  = If there's a single utility I depend on the most, it's FLIST.    Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/19 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:17:55 -0300t) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brn1 Subject: Re: RTR now licesnsed as part of OpenVMSsL Message-ID: <OF7629EAAB.4B6B7BB3-ON032569FC.00391CBD@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   You are right ! ! !h  , They bougth one Sun E-10000 for backup ! ! !   Regards/   FC        B nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) em 22/02/2001 15:58:36             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi      1 Assunto: Re: RTR now licesnsed as part of OpenVMSe    
 In articleA <OF52864ED0.EB6A7406-ON032569FB.0066FB5B@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,0.    fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:   > I will repeat againo >MJ > The company I am working for bought  5 (five) E-10000, and will turn off 25 > OpenVMS servers. > in all the country ....e >sC    Does that mean that ( following the eBay model ) they think theynH really only need 2 E-10000s to do the work and the rest are being bought* as backups ( and backups for the backups )    ;-)  F    Is this another case of "the 3rd party product we need is no longer available on VMS"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:15:41 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>( Subject: SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me...: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010301105553.019f6eb8@24.8.96.48>  E I've been trying to get Samba 2.0.6 up and running, with close to no fK success (smbclient works, which is something), and it's beginning to annoy iJ me. I know folks have this working so I know it can work, but it beats me 
 what's wrong.w  K I have the latest versions of the frontport and samba distributions off of -I the DECUS archive. Followed the directions and things seem functional. I vJ can connect to other SMB shares with the SMBCLIENT program just fine. The ) machine is a 7.2-1 machine with UCX 5.0A.a  ; I made the following changes to the provided smb.conf file:s  H *) I changed the workgroup to my local workgroup (Though it still fails 
 with XILE)! *) I set encrypt passwords to No.r *) I set load printers to No. ? *) I commented out the printers, c-itoh, and frontport sectionst  L When I try to connect with SMBCLIENT on the same host with the command line:  .   smbclient //monsoon/dsugalski "-U" dsugalski   it throws the error:      tree connect failed: code 0  # and the smb.log file has the entry:   E [2001/03/01 10:07:54, 1] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.SMBD]SERVER.C;2:(643)e    smbd version 2.0.6 started.&    Copyright Andrew Tridgell 1992-1998  I and nothing else. Attempting to connect from a Win2KSP1 machine, the win iE machine yells with an error "the specified network name is no longer -L available" and the connection fails. The above log file message is all that  makes it into smb.log.  N Attempting to connect from a Unix box with Samba 2.0.7 on it throws the error:      smb: \> Broken Pipe  ? but the smb.log file once again has just the above entry in it.-  I Anyone got any ideas? That SMBCLIENT is working is a cool thing, but I'd .= really like to have this thing actually act as a file server.:   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------o2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunkh   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:07:39 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)0 Subject: Re: Sending e-mail with system routines6 Message-ID: <vlvn6.18$Kf6.231@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  h In article <11en6.396$PS4.36770@nreader2.kpnqwest.net>, "Stephan Lorg" <lorges@realsoftware.be> writes:. :I want to send e-mail with a system routines.9 :The mail$send... routines only accept VMS user routines.n5 :We use VMS 7.1-2 and have UCX with SMTP implemented.hF :Does somebody know which routine and with which parameters I can send :e-mail?  E   The callable mail API is expected to send SMTP mail just as nicely iF   as it sends DECnet mail.  I just tried the example from the MAIL APIJ   documentation and (after I cleaned up some compilation-related errors), )   successfully sent a file via SMTP mail.-  :   Specific details of the problem(s) seen would be useful.  B   For information on the sorts of detail to include when posting aC   question, please see the introductory section of the OpenVMS FAQ. F   (In this case, useful details could include the particular compiler A   and version, the message(s) or condition codes seen, an example    reproducer, etc...)A  E   I would encourage an upgrade to TCP/IP Services V5.0A with ECO, or C   (better) to V5.1.t  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 10:48:17 -0500)- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a9 Subject: Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop'i3 Message-ID: <o5vBpdLFLtQM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <nsin6.192$o4.7358@ozemail.com.au>, "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> writes:   > nuTPU  >    Have you tried this?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation:= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:17:28 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brs Subject: Storage and MTBFsL Message-ID: <OFAD524F4C.A36104B8-ON032569FC.004916DA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  G I was just wondering about these new storage hardware like EMC, Sharks,t etc...  G I have a StorageWorks here with 90 GB of disks - of course it is an oldM hardware (> 3 years)3 with 4 GB disks performing RAID-5 (volumes of 8GB).y  B I never had a problem with the RAID itself or with disks failures.  J I dont know if I am lucky or the quality of the disks (MTBF) is improving.  H So, why buy an expensive storage, which needs 4 guys plus the support em EMC-USAe to put  these disks to work ?g  I I feel these storages are becoming to much complex for the actual  disks, 
 which have: less than  < 0.001 ... % of probability to have a failure.  D It is clear that depending of the RAID and applications, you have an
 improvment of E performance  of transactions, and all that blah, blah, blah we know !   E But if the disks are becoming better, why have a complex hardware and  softwareJ to put them to work. And why concentrate all of them in one box ? And dontG distribute them in two. three midrange boxes.... in my personal opinionaH it is better safe. I never will trust my OWN data to a black box which I cannot have control.  I For OpenVMS, disks are just disks. Was easy to port from the StorageWorksi+ to the EMC after connecting the SCSI cable.n  B For Unix is a mess to copy all the ufs file systems because of its
 structure.    C I believe the next wave for storage, and SANs (I believe still much  complex)I is to develop easy interfaces for management. The dissolve the complexitytD and to re-think the needs of putting all the company in one "box"...  H It would be 99,999%   safe and fault tolerant, but if it fails, with all theu> servers of my company conected,  all my business go down ! ! !   Regardse   FC   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 10:18:42 -0500.+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e Subject: Re: Storage and MTBF 3 Message-ID: <bwpLZWLbzEhC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   x In article <OFAD524F4C.A36104B8-ON032569FC.004916DA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:I > I was just wondering about these new storage hardware like EMC, Sharks,- > etc... > I > I have a StorageWorks here with 90 GB of disks - of course it is an olde > hardware (> 3 years)5 > with 4 GB disks performing RAID-5 (volumes of 8GB).g > D > I never had a problem with the RAID itself or with disks failures. > L > I dont know if I am lucky or the quality of the disks (MTBF) is improving. >   8 	You aren't lucky.  MTBF is increasing.  Random example:  P http://www.seagate.com/cda/newsinfo/newsroom/releases/article/0,1247,820,00.html  < Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) rating of 1,200,000 hours.   @ 	Better hope they have high MTBF cause when you blow out a large? 	RAID set of those 180 Gig drives, the restore takes a while... , 	one of my new favorite pet peeve topics ;-)    J > So, why buy an expensive storage, which needs 4 guys plus the support em	 > EMC-USA  > to put  these disks to work ?  >   ; 	Umm.. good question.  In fact, an easy one to point out toaA 	management!  After all, StorageWorks (and others) have AUTOSPARE H 	functionality... and the truly paranoid (with low disk costs today) use= 	several layers of RAID to boot (Host based Volume Shadowing B9 	combined with Controller based RAID) so even a glitch on." 	a rebuild doesn't bite you , etc.  K > I feel these storages are becoming to much complex for the actual  disks,t > which have< > less than  < 0.001 ... % of probability to have a failure. > F > It is clear that depending of the RAID and applications, you have an > improvment ofnG > performance  of transactions, and all that blah, blah, blah we know !q > G > But if the disks are becoming better, why have a complex hardware and 
 > softwareL > to put them to work. And why concentrate all of them in one box ? And dontI > distribute them in two. three midrange boxes.... in my personal opinion-J > it is better safe. I never will trust my OWN data to a black box which I > cannot have control.   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  >    	A man after my own heart.  K > For OpenVMS, disks are just disks. Was easy to port from the StorageWorksr- > to the EMC after connecting the SCSI cable.e >   B 	SCSI?  That was then, this is now!  You meant to say fibre cable, 	right?a   > E > I believe the next wave for storage, and SANs (I believe still muchN
 > complex)K > is to develop easy interfaces for management. The dissolve the complexitytF > and to re-think the needs of putting all the company in one "box"... > J > It would be 99,999%   safe and fault tolerant, but if it fails, with all > the @ > servers of my company conected,  all my business go down ! ! ! >   > 	Yes... and visit http://www.xiotech.com/  they are doing wellB 	in the marketplace because of just what you mentioned.  Very niceB 	management interface and the storage is carved out of pools.  But; 	let me also point out StorageWorks futures include similar C 	functionality so be patient if you have a big SW investment.  (EMCm" 	has storage virtualization also).  * 	Compaq's Versastor is a work in progress:  H http://www.compaq.com/products/storageworks/announcements/versastor.html  4 	and as far as I can tell that page has a link to a ! 	press release and not much else.2   				Robl   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Mar 2001 09:54:14 GMT% From: neutekniqx@aol.com (NeuTekniqx) % Subject: tamper resistance techniquesr: Message-ID: <20010301045414.20451.00000202@ng-ce1.aol.com>  M Does anyone know of any good books, papers, or web sites about software-baseddN tamper resistance techniques.  (Yes I know software-based tamper resistance is not 100% secure.)u  ) Please e-mail me your reply if you could..  	 Thank youa   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:35:37 GMTs, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>B Subject: TREE.COM revised (was: Recommend a VMS directory browser)& Message-ID: <3A9E09F1.C00BC42A@gmx.ch>  
 $ ! TREE.COM r $ !r $ on warning then exit $ wr :== WRITE sys$outputm $ write_file = "FALSE" $ level = 0l $ null = ""  $ line = "|-------"o $ blanks = linek	 $ wr nullo( $ sav_default = F$ENVIRONMENT("DEFAULT")) $ direct = sav_default ! vorher user_rooto3 $ if p1 .eqs. "" then inq p1 "Root level [default]"o" $ if p1 .eqs. "" then p1 = f$dir() $ if p2 .nes. "" $ then" $    outfile = f$edit(p2,"upcase")K $    if f$parse(outfile,,,"type") .eqs. "." then outfile = outfile + ".LIS"i $    close/nolog filen( $    open/write file sys$login:'outfile' $    write_file = "TRUE"5 $    write sys$output "Output redirected to ",outfileo $    define sys$output file  $ endifh $ set def 'p1' $ wr p1i $ wr "|" $ !h $loop: $ last = directp" $ direct = F$SEARCH("*.DIR",LEVEL)% $ device = f$parse(direct,,,"device")C $ dir_name = direct - device9 $ if dir_name .eqs. "[000000]000000.DIR;1" then goto LOOP ' $ IF (direct .NES. "") THEN GOTO deepere
 $ GOTO higher  $ !t $deeper: $ level = level + 1d5 $ IF (LEVEL .NE. 1) THEN blanks = "|       " + blanksw" $ vz = F$PARSE(direct,,,"name")    $ wr blanks,"[",vz,"]" e $ SET DEFAULT [.'vz']R $ GOTO loopK $ !  $higher: $ IF (level .EQ. 0)r $ THEN $    wr "+--[EOD]" $    GOTO ende $ endif / $ IF (last .EQS. "") THEN wr blanks - "-------"n $ level = level - 1  $ blanks = blanks - "|       " $ SET DEFAULT '[-]'T $ GOTO loopt $ !v $ende:	 $ wr nulls $ SET DEFAULT 'sav_default'I $ IF write_file .EQS. "TRUE" r
 $    THEN  $    deassign sys$output $    CLOSE file  $ ENDIFe $ EXIT   gives:  * ISLKP1> @tree.com data01:[000000]            DATA01:[000000]O |l |-------[ISLK01] |-------[ISLK13] |       |-------[ISLK_DAT]  |       |       |-------[DB_PRO]	 |       |. |) |-------[ISLK_DAT] |       |-------[ORDER]  |       |-------[ZH] |e |-------[TOTO] |       |-------[SYSMGR] |  +--[EOD]   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Mar 2001 10:49:40 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> ' Subject: Re: UCX/TCPIP 5.1 for Hobbyist.H Message-ID: <y4k869zumj.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@ossc.DELETE.net> writes:  K > Keep in mind that they don't run on VAX, but we made the code work there.f  I Did the code improve in quality through this porting effort, one wonders?C  & > Compared to the Ultrix network code,M > the Tru64 code is very demanding on memory (ithat is, VMS' non-paged pool).M  N That is data memory, not code memory, I presume. Why is that? Is there so muchF leeway in TCP/IP that implmentations can differ so much in complexity?   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:03:47 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>: Subject: [info] inconsistency in PCSI doc on REGISTER verb& Message-ID: <3A9E2CAB.BF335AB1@gmx.ch>  B This is the OpenVMS System manager's manual (AA-PV5ME-TK jan 1999)N www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6017/6017pro_007.html#register_product_sec  L and this is the OpenVMS System management utilities ref man (AA-PV5QE-TK jan 1999)RM www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6258/6048pro_054.html#startsubcommand_343t  : where both deal with the PRODUCT REGISTER PRODUCT command.  J The first one has one line to mention how to register a non-PCSI installedO product, but with a .PCSI$DESC file available (one can wonder why we could havexH such file) and enough info to explain how to register any other productsL (actually with the sys$update:pcsi$register_product.com procedure which does create a .pcsi$desc).V  J The second document uses three pages to explain how to register a non-PCSIO installed product, but without any mention on the fact that the .pcsi$desc file: should preexist.  F It doesn't mention the sys$update:pcsi$register_product.com procedure.  F The example at end of page 3.43 is wrong. If the TOOLCHEST product wasD installed by the VMSINSTAL.COM utility, there is no reason to have a1 VMSINSTAL.PCSI$DESC file in the [.KIT] directory.h   D.  6 also posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:21:21 GMTN, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>* Subject: Re: [Request] f$element delimiter& Message-ID: <3A9DF88A.B8038F12@gmx.ch>  ? because all the code which handles a single "=" is ready, and IeF discovered that I also need to handle "==" and I don't wish to rewriteB the whole stuff because I am lazy .-9  ooops swiss keyboard... :-)   KA2DOUG wrote: > , > Why not use f$locate("@",line) to do this?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.120 ************************