1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 02 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 122       Contents:9 Re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL? 9 re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL? ' Re: Audio Input. Was: Janitor fixes 90L ' Re: Audio Input. Was: Janitor fixes 90L % Re: bizarre problem: huge DECW$SM.LOG 6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle6 Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later & RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?& Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 9 Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? 5 How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file?? ( how to determine when file is accessible, Re: how to determine when file is accessible, Re: how to determine when file is accessible< Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?< Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?< Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?/ Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken / Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L P Re: Java and DECwindows V1.2-6? (was Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA br# Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPU # Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPU  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM ODS-5 dir structure definitions # Re: OpenVMS and cluster reliability  Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  OpenVMS goodies  Re: OpenVMS goodies  Re: OpenVMS goodies  Re: OpenVMS goodies  Re: OpenVMS goodies 4 Re: Pls help with $PRODUCT INSTALL on this PCSI file4 Re: Pls help with $PRODUCT INSTALL on this PCSI file  Print Server Queue Retry Timeout$ Re: Print Server Queue Retry Timeout4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE4 Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE Re: PROD Utility Failure Re: PROD Utility Failure Re: PROD Utility Failure (PCSI) % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser % Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser # Re: SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me... # Re: SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me... 0 Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop' Umbrella in Germany  Umbrella in Germany ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE  Re: vms programming question7 Re: VMS V7.2+ bug - directory modification date changes  Re: [info] PCSI restriction & [INFO] wrong answer in Mgmt agents FAQ" [OT]: HP Announces End Of OpenMAIL  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:41:41 +0000 . From: Peter Jackson <peter.jackson@oracle.com>B Subject: Re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL?* Message-ID: <3A9FDB55.F88360C1@oracle.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------E0C60AC7108DAF8ACDA26109* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   8 Both Oracle Rdb and Oracle RDBMS come with ODBC drivers.  
 Peter Jackson  Rdb Support 	 Oracle UK    "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote:  K > There are several ODBC servers for VMS that can support SQL to native RMS G > files, DBMS, etc.  We use ConnX from SolutionsIQ.  There are also SQL K > databases for VMS, but for a PC to talk to the VMS system it will need to  > support ODBC...  > N > Something else to consider, while still avoiding the evil empire, is runningM > Linux on an old PC that may not be able to run Windoze along with something N > like mySQL or Borland's Interbase which are both free rdb systems supporting	 > ODBC...  >  > Barry  >  > "Mark E. Levy" wrote:  > I > > I have an application that requires Microsoft SQL server. For reasons H > > obvious to readers of this NG, I'd prefer to have it live on my OVMSE > > box. Pathworks does a great job of making lowly PCs think they're L > > talking to an NT server. Are there any OVMS based database products that8 > > "look" like Microsoft SQL to an unsuspecting PC app? > >  > > TIA, > > 
 > > Mark Levy  > > SMA  >  > -- > A > Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO  > C > E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028   & --------------E0C60AC7108DAF8ACDA26109- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;   name="peter.jackson.vcf"  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit + Content-Description: Card for Peter Jackson   Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="peter.jackson.vcf"    begin:vcard  n:Jackson;Peter  tel;fax:0118 9249260 tel;work:0118 9249165  x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Oracle Corporation UK Ltd.
 adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 ' email;internet:peter.jackson@oracle.com  fn:Peter Jackson	 end:vcard   ( --------------E0C60AC7108DAF8ACDA26109--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:37:36 -0500  From: Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com B Subject: re: Any VMS Database product compatible w/ Microsoft SQL?A Message-ID: <OF02819DF8.1BE43148-ON85256A03.0060940B@cca-int.com>    "Mark E. Levy" posted:F >I have an application that requires Microsoft SQL server. For reasonsE >obvious to readers of this NG, I'd prefer to have it live on my OVMS B >box. Pathworks does a great job of making lowly PCs think they'reI >talking to an NT server. Are there any OVMS based database products that 5 >"look" like Microsoft SQL to an unsuspecting PC app?   D Might it be possible to describe the features of SQLServer that your program requires?   ( Reply to group or directly, if you want. -Tym   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 18:08:02 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Audio Input. Was: Janitor fixes 90L0 Message-ID: <87bsrkpjp9.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com>  / "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:   G > If I recall correctly those were told as personal experiences by Bill I > Hancock at DECUS war stories sessions in the mid-1980s.  If he is still F > around, he should re-tell them.  But I do remember them, vividly forJ > sure, and perhaps even accurately.  The same venue also had the story ofI > the beserk automated fork-lift on the brewery loading dock, but I don't $ > remember whose that is to re-tell.  E I have a collection of these on Audio cassette. What can I go looking B for to digitze them and turn them into MP3s, or some other format? TC or PCI, can borrow an AS100.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:25:33 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> 0 Subject: Re: Audio Input. Was: Janitor fixes 90L) Message-ID: <3A9FC97D.AECF929E@bbc.co.uk>    Paul Repacholi wrote:   H >  I have a collection of these on Audio cassette. What can I go lookingD > for to digitze them and turn them into MP3s, or some other format?! > TC or PCI, can borrow an AS100.  >   I I've been doing quite a bit of audio cassette to CD rescuing recently. If J you have a domestic audio CD burner available, I'd recommend plugging thatI into the lineouts of your cassette deck. That way you can just let it run M without tying up your computer, running out of harddrive space, glitches etc. I When the time comes to edit, you can read the CD into the machine of your F choice at whetever audio extraction rate your CDRom supports (I get 14 times on Yamaha 2100).  H OK, for the really special stuff I use my digital mixer and ADAT opticalF interface to PC, but there is not much I have on cassette that is that special.  1 regards, sorry for ot and mentioning the pc word.     -- 6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Mar 2001 19:04:56 GMT 3 From: "Jay E. Morris" <morris@thorin.brooks.af.mil> . Subject: Re: bizarre problem: huge DECW$SM.LOG, Message-ID: <97m6go$8oo$1@leo.brooks.af.mil>  _ In message <7273k7$nrg@usenet.pa.dec.com>, hoffman@xdelta.enet.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:  > X > In article <726lid$ouv$1@probity.mcc.ac.uk>, helbig@man.ac.uk (Phillip Helbig) writes:F > :My MONITOR SYSTEM terminal just started showing A LOT of I/O (both J > :buffered and direct) going on.  Then the disk filled up.  I noticed it H > :was DECW$SESSION.LOG, which had 0 used but 181000 allocated blocks.  " > :It's `proper' size seems to be  > : ! > :DECW$SM.LOG;1              0/8  > : . > :Anyone seen this before or know it's cause? > G >   I can't say I've seen this one before.  (Somebody else may have...)  >  I have. On a random basis, once every 2 or 3 months, I'd have one of four alphastations start filling up the disk with the log file.  I never did figure out what caused it.  At one point I did an OS update and now I haven't seen it in a couple of years.    --  6 Jay E. Morris, Epsilon 3 Productions, Web site hosting) http:\\www.epsilon3.com  e3p@epsilon3.ocm @ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:23:52 +0000 " From: Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com>? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle @ Message-ID: <OF81E4B476.D304428E-ON80256A03.004F16FE@eu.csc.com>  . After coming back from the DECUS UK clustering- event, I'm not quite sure how the 'perceived' - stranglehold on clustering perfection VMS has  is actually true.    A DLM is only one technique.  6 In the database world (which is not all applications I. know) transaction logs provide an ideal and in, many ways an almost perfect way of providing8 cluster functionality in a distributed data environment.3 This is how Himalaya does it in some cases. In this 6 and others, individual systems have total ownership of3 data, and while this may seen an inefficient way of 0 addressing shared storage, the need for a DLM is removed.  5 From the announcement it appears if, for this release 3 at least, Oracle are implementing a DLM type system / backporting borrowed technologies, but RDB does 5 that, and with 32 bits! Who owns that? Is the cluster 0 the operating system or the application? Does it matter?   . There are some novel techniques up and coming,3 ServerNet 2 (will be available on VMS?*) is/will be 1 on multiple platforms and with the amount of work / some developers are putting into such things as - process mirroring, the efforts to bring about , distributed scaleable availability are huge.  0 (* Some proprietary cluster techniques are being* ported to a number of operating systems, I1 don't have a copy of my notes at hand to confirm, % its from memory. VMS was on the list)   ' OK I am a VMS bigot, but other OS's and 0 applications are playing catch up for delivering( the functionality, and in some cases are) arguably ahead. In terms of availability, ' service failover may be perceived to be ) primitive, but when placed in the context - of process mirroring, nothing more is needed.   1 Tru64 is starting to offer the best of all worlds , from a technical point of view but as we all+ know, just being good often isn't enough to  succeed.  3 Hey, I know I've probably rattled a few cages here, - but lets discuss around this. VMS is a proven 2 method, but there are other ingenious ones kicking4 around. Maybe this is off topic, maybe it isn't. I'm/ reporting what I observe. Maybe VMS could learn 1 from some of the other systems around. Most of it , is bleeding edge and some of it is unproven.   These are interesting times.   All opinions etc.    Regards, Nic Clews CSC nclews at csc dot com.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 09:57:07 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle 3 Message-ID: <7EY3GRma6hMg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <OF81E4B476.D304428E-ON80256A03.004F16FE@eu.csc.com>, Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> writes:  > 7 > From the announcement it appears if, for this release 5 > at least, Oracle are implementing a DLM type system 1 > backporting borrowed technologies, but RDB does 7 > that, and with 32 bits! Who owns that? Is the cluster 2 > the operating system or the application? Does it	 > matter?  >   B 	Ah... again I overlooked the obvious.  RDB was on NT at one time.+ 	So maybe it does show real soon on NT too.    				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:47:22 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com? Subject: Re: Compaq to transfer clustering technology to Oracle H Message-ID: <OFA8D34C4F.E71AFAEC-ON80256A03.0055F5BF@qedi.quintiles.com>  K There are environments that I've heard of where clustering is just too slow I and/or unreliable for what is being provided.  I'm not sure how fast NASA C expect their systems to realize that one has disappeared and adjust G themselves round it to make sure that the work is covered, nor what the K impact would be if they lost a network connection and forced one or more of $ their machines into a CLUEXIT crash.  D I suppose the question that I'm getting at is does a business need aJ cluster to provide their service or is a bullet-proof non-clustered design a better thing to do?    Steve.   Nic Clews wrote:* >>>OK I am a VMS bigot, but other OS's and0 applications are playing catch up for delivering( the functionality, and in some cases are) arguably ahead. In terms of availability, ' service failover may be perceived to be ) primitive, but when placed in the context 0 of process mirroring, nothing more is needed.<<<   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:05:42 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-KFYMsBX7HxbN@localhost>   ? On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:26:51, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:    J > I've always said that programmers should be forced to write in assemblerC > for a year before being let loose in the real world. The more you E > understand, the better you do regardless of the tools you're using.e  @ I agree, I find myself doing it all the time now that I'm doing E Real-Time stuff again. I got out of the habit for a while when I was uF just maintining our assembler. As a result our real-Time code had got E very inefficient, I was not helping the Fortran compiler at all, and   started suffering overruns.p  C A bit of analysis with FOR /LIS /MAC allowed me to restructure (or cF correctly structure :-)) the code to enable the compiler to eliminate  the waste. No more overruns.  E I have to confess that an alogorithm change to use POINTERS helped a tF lot in two areas. It enabled me to move the IF/ELSEIF/ELSE/ENDIF from E the run-time code to the initialisation block. However, the pointers aD point to static elements so no rubbish pointers are (theoretically)  possible. (Ha Ha!!)e   -- C Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:41:09 +0010t% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aub0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later5 Message-ID: <01K0QEALOM0I00AIWG@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>e   J-F Mezei wrote:  # >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:+B >> I've always said that programmers should be forced to write in 
 >assemblerD >> for a year before being let loose in the real world. The more youF >> understand, the better you do regardless of the tools you're using. >a >I agree entirely. >oF >The 2 courses where I learned the most at uni were IBM 370 assembler 	 >followedfH >by computer architecture (where you learn how additions/multiplication  >etc are >made with and/or gates).i  I I disagree with both of you.  But it depends on what sort of programming l you are doing.  F Shane I've always read as an applications guy -- COBOL/BASIC business K stuff.  J-F as a lower level device drivers/systems, etc. sort of person.   J I can understand J-F's need to know assembler more than I can Shane's (if , I am reading your IT backgrounds correctly.)  F I'm just a number cruncher who writes in a HLL to get results.  I did K read/learn 370 assembler and VAX Macro to help me enhance my programs, but  # I do not see it as a pre-requisite.   I I do not really have to understand the intricacies of the machine to get  D correct mathematical results (and why should Shane for his business < applications?).  It does help, though for speed -- cf Atlas.  C And these days, do we need to study the RISC architecture to write eF business or number crunching applications?  I leave it to my compiler * writers and people who work at that level.  K Hmm, more relevant to the subject title, I often use VAX Macro listings to  E understand some C code.  For reasons that I shall not bother with, I nD deplore the syntax of the language (as unsafe syntax versus Fortran B syntax) and luckily have no need to use;  I don't write GUI stuff.  F Totally OT but to follow up J-F's comment, in my studies, I found the K course that gave me most benefit overall in the field of mathematics was a e% course on the History of Mathematics.w   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,i
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiae   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,e; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:09:45 +0010g% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aud0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later5 Message-ID: <01K0QFA2AC2A00ADSD@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>L   Dave,P  D >A bit of analysis with FOR /LIS /MAC allowed me to restructure (or G >correctly structure :-)) the code to enable the compiler to eliminate e >the waste. No more overruns.h  ) Yep, I've done that on VAX, but Alpha...?g  F >I have to confess that an alogorithm change to use POINTERS helped a G >lot in two areas. It enabled me to move the IF/ELSEIF/ELSE/ENDIF from eF >the run-time code to the initialisation block. However, the pointers E >point to static elements so no rubbish pointers are (theoretically) t >possible. (Ha Ha!!)  J No comprendo.  Pointers are optimisation inhibitors.  Do you somehow mean I it gave you a clue in this area?  Is your "initialisation block" a BLOCK EJ DATA routine, or a run-time which does A(:N) = 0, for example (this being * more efficient in executable size/layout).  J I maintain many large Fortran applications and am genuinely interested in F understanding your enhancements, or the point (pun :-) you are making I here.  Would you be prepared to mail off-line examples of the pre-/post- a code?1   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, AustraliaQ   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,a; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 04:18:07 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3A9F6542.9493AD29@videotron.ca>  & paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au wrote:D > And these days, do we need to study the RISC architecture to writeG > business or number crunching applications?  I leave it to my compilert, > writers and people who work at that level.  K It isn't the question of knowing the assembler for the machine on which youiG code (although this may help), it is a question of knowing at least onegJ assembly language to understand what the compiler does. This is especiallyK true of windows weenies who program in C++ are are so totally detached fromrM the machine that they have absolutely no clue on what really happens, nor cane9 they make the difference between the compiler and linker.n   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 04:36:35 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87n1b58bvw.fsf@prep.synonet.com>d  ( "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  D > Compiler size has very little if anything to do with complexity ofA > the language.  Run-time support may.  The best thing to look atdB > would be image size for similar tasks having the runtime supportF > linked in without using shareable images.  Better yet, keep the taskB > to something done without using libraries and see how much extra/ > stuff the compiler throws in the final image.o  G Well illistrated in the book of D Cutler et al doing the PL/I compiler.:D At the end is a chapter Beauty and the Beast, and the 'fun' they hadH and the extra work that was needed to get a simple language, C, to work. For a VAX C value of work...     -- ,< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:54:51 +0010e% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later5 Message-ID: <01K0QGUZ9N8Y00AGSF@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>e   J-F Mezei wrote:  I >It isn't the question of knowing the assembler for the machine on which t >youH >code (although this may help), it is a question of knowing at least oneA >assembly language to understand what the compiler does. This is . >especially-H >true of windows weenies who program in C++ are are so totally detached  >fromoK >the machine that they have absolutely no clue on what really happens, nor   >can: >they make the difference between the compiler and linker.  < I'll concede this, but only in the sense that this is being E versatile/linguistic enough to appreciate another language.  And, of sE course you are right that we should know the interaction of our code  H ideals and machine architecture.  Many of us here have been in the game J long enough to be employed as "serious" programmers, and that's the level  to which I was relating.  I I disagreed with Shane's comment (to which you agreed) that it should be c/ mandatory to program for a period in assembler.g  K In my field, I can write working efficient programs using only my longtime  J HLL.  A general knowledge of computer architecture does help with how you J lay out your design.  I knew little of that when I first started to write K network analysis programs.  In some bottlenecks, I have been able to shave aE off a small bit of time on IBM and VAX (and I forgot my CDC days) by -* understanding how the compiler translated.  K Even years ago, I never felt the need to write a matrix multiply (e.g.) in  K assembler.  Not portable and even code in Fortran different techniques had pI differnet pay-offs on different machines.  My ability to write assembler aB will not keep up with our compiler writers enhancing techniques.  I Undoubtedly the work done on Atlas is now being incorporated into modern  
 compilers.   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,s
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiao   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,o; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:32:23 GMTY= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)a0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <009F8662.9F5D5591@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Y In article <97n9o9$jha@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:I >Brian,t >,% >I agree, but there are the ex-wives,t   Ok, I've none of those...m     > several mortgages,  & One of those with little left to go...     > kids in college, and  G Why should this cost you?  I placed myself through college and I do not-) see why my children cannot do the same.  5    J >a few other nuts to crack.  I don't have the luxury of not worrying about >the money.u  I Neither do I; however, since a schmuck has all of mine, no amount of fret2F and worry will bring it back.  Stress is a serious detriment to one's 8 health and can be far costlier than the money causes it.    M >My comment was really directed at the notion that programmers worth anythingsL >choose their language and OS and that there isn't any code worth looking at >written
 >in C/C++.  G "programmers worth anything" should be involved in the projects they'rebG coding from the management levels on down.  I remember the migration in F the early '80s to C.  The C proselytes were preaching mass rewrites toF make everything peachy.  One project I was close to at that time was aG project written in Fortran with very heavy real and complex computationfF involved.  The proselytes convinced the management that a C rewrite ofH the entire project would speed up the end product enormously.  The moneyH was allocated.  Some of the senior old programmers were retained to helpG explain certain areas to the new C proselytes recoding the project.  In H a year and half time, the C rewrite was complete.  Benchmarks showed theH code was more than three times slower.  My guess was all of the overheadG to call library functions to do the real and complex math that was justn" a simple in-line in the Fortran.    H Yes, newer compilers would likely have better optimizations to deal withH such issues and, today, the C rewrite might (?) be at par or even fasterH than the original.  The problem is bandwagoneering.  All of my neighbors9 are installing swimming pools so I have to too mentality.L  H Anyway, this whole thread is getting silly and stupid.  It's akin to, ifI not worse than, the religious OS wars that errupt here from time to time.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            aO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:11:07 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later8 Message-ID: <u8qu9toh6v721nrmmno1ufhlkm0443f6an@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:58:45 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:h   >Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: L >> The PASS (primary avionics software system, or somesuch) is definitely inO >> HAL/S, and is the only one that has ever flown the thing in practice. As thelM >> BFS (backup flight system, or somesuch) was available for the first flightuL >> twenty years ago, I doubt it is in Ada, and it has never flown a shuttle.C >> (They were one failure away once on an early flight, I believe.)s > H >There was a failure a few flights ago. (It was one flight with a femaleM >commander, one or two years ago). That failure prompted the grounding of thet2 >shuttle fleet while all the wiring was inspected.  C Yeh, I remember listening to that live. Think the audio is still on F CNN. There was a very tense exchange between ground and the shuttle asE a large number of faults were indicated (crash of two computers and a D couple of main busses down (IIRC) followed almost immediately by "goC with throttle up". I imagine a lot of hearts skipped a few beats ataD that point. On top of this that same flight suffered an early engine	 shutdown.'    L >The architecture worked as designed, with the shuttle surviving the loss of >part of its systems.   D Some NASA spokesman said at the time it was very close to a scenarioE that the crew had just run through in the simulator a couple of weekss previously.h  ? I've just searched back on CNN and strangely the audio/video ofu liftoff is still thereD http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9907/27/shuttle.landing/index.html butA it's been edited to take out most of the conversations. You hear:  "Houston now controlling" A "Houston, Columbia in the roll we have (initial problem report)."s* "Roger roll Columbia we're looking at it."  F Then the audio/video jumps (very clearly with a big white line rollingA up the screen)  to much further on in the flight.  Eileen Collinsm@ sounded increasingly tense as the (cut) exchange continued. I'veB noticed before that CNN edit news after the fact. A few months agoF they listed US freedom of information broken arrow incidents including@ one that is still an official secret in the UK. (1960s US bomber@ crashed into nuclear bomb storage bunker in UK apparently almostF triggering one despite all the safeguards These pages have vanished as well..     -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 18:45:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87y9uoo3eq.fsf@prep.synonet.com>O  ( "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  E > I think we finally get to the point.  You must not work for others. F > I have met few programmers/situations where the choice could be made8 > by the programmer as to language, OS, and other tools.  F > As to worth, I suspect that the $$ value of C/C++ code significantlyF > eclipses ANY other language.  Take the value of MS products and UNIXD > products written in it alone and I think my case is made.  Some of$ > us have to live in the real world.  @ I'd agree about the COST of C/C++. The value is much lower. YourC reference to M$ and unix seals the point I think. In fact, with the F support costs included, I think you could argue that the 'value' is in fact negative.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:26:38 +0000m/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>c0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later6 Message-ID: <009F8694.1C473845.4@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>  M > > We get used to a certain syntax in a certain context. Just as DCL makes aa  > > difference between = and ==. > A > One of the nice things about BLISS (eql, neq, lss, gtr, etc...)a > ; > One of the BAD things about C is all the coding shortcutss% > (like (?:) and pre/post decrement)., > F > It seems to me that this discussion has pointed out that much of ourC > individual philosophies about programming enters into how we feel E > about language features along with past/present frustrations with atC > language.  I also suspect that how much experience we have with ar6 > language makes a difference in how we feel about it.  1 Getting sucked in against my better judgement ...-  H What's so silly about C's = and == operator is that both are binary ops,C both can appear legally in the context of a general expression, andpK *ergonomically* it's a disaster in that a common keyboard glitch can easily G transmute one into the other. That's even if a "braino" isn't involved, H and of course anyone who has studied that sort of human glitch will tellD you that involuntary repetitions and transpositions are both  commonJ errors and hard to notice. Ditto & vs &&, | vs ||.  Brainos are especiallyB likely, because the conceptual meanings of these pairs are closely associated.A  I FORTRAN got this right: logical operators are .EQ. .AND. .OR.  and so on,t? which cannot be generated accidentally by keyboard or low-levelf brain glitches.  As did BLISS.  G I've no objection to ++a; or a += expr; but note the semicolons! It wasdN a real bad idea to allow operators with side-effects into general expressions,@ and is probably also a major irritant for compiler writers. Good8 programmers know to avoid expressions with side-effects.   > K > It would be interesting to have a discussion about programming philosophyiD > and see how the Ada versus C/C++ discussion correlates to people's8 > philosophy about how to write code in the first place. >   M I don't know that there's a lot more that one can say, beyond the observation/O that good code can be written in almost any language, and bad code in anything.o  F Whar annoys me most is that on most systems other than VMS, there's noF decent consideration given to mixed-language programming, and so usingC multiple languages to construct a single large executable is rare. mI (Unfortunately, it's far too late to do anything about this -- would havenJ taken an ANSI inter-language conventions committee at least three decades > ago to make mixed-language programming universally accepable).   	Yours,t
 		Nigel Arnot - 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   t  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:26:26 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later8 Message-ID: <snsu9tsdhuu5st5hjdv0lclr4hrih3rn7c@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:58:45 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:a   >Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:eL >> The PASS (primary avionics software system, or somesuch) is definitely inO >> HAL/S, and is the only one that has ever flown the thing in practice. As theiM >> BFS (backup flight system, or somesuch) was available for the first flighteL >> twenty years ago, I doubt it is in Ada, and it has never flown a shuttle.C >> (They were one failure away once on an early flight, I believe.)3 >aH >There was a failure a few flights ago. (It was one flight with a femaleM >commander, one or two years ago). That failure prompted the grounding of thet2 >shuttle fleet while all the wiring was inspected. > L >The architecture worked as designed, with the shuttle surviving the loss of >part of its systems.n  $ Found unedited video on BBC web siteL http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/400000/video/_401727_shuttle_launch_mov_vi.ram   if anyone wants to watch.s Includes following sequence:& "Looks like we had a transient on AC1"& "We are critical on AC2 centre engine" "Critical AC3 right" "Lost DCUA centre" "DCUB right" "Copy that Houston"  "Go with throttle up"v "Roger go with throttle up"h   Anyone translate the above?  -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 07:49:17 -0500t9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)p0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <hjNQxrNd5Dqh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <01K0QFA2AC2A00ADSD@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:i > Dave,e > E >>A bit of analysis with FOR /LIS /MAC allowed me to restructure (or hH >>correctly structure :-)) the code to enable the compiler to eliminate  >>the waste. No more overruns. > + > Yep, I've done that on VAX, but Alpha...?e > G >>I have to confess that an alogorithm change to use POINTERS helped a kH >>lot in two areas. It enabled me to move the IF/ELSEIF/ELSE/ENDIF from G >>the run-time code to the initialisation block. However, the pointers eF >>point to static elements so no rubbish pointers are (theoretically)  >>possible. (Ha Ha!!)  > 6 > No comprendo.  Pointers are optimisation inhibitors.  B Pointers are optimization inhibitors only when the language in useE does not provide sufficient aliasing information (from the programmer  to the compiler).-   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:13:00 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <8N$aJOUJllwq@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  Y In article <97m1f4$ku3@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:iF > Your point only goes to the C libraries and NOT the language itself.  G No.  The ANSI standard makes the libraries part of the language and the E language definition defaults to stack variables.  These are importantt parts of the problem.q  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationr= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingk   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:24:38 -0500-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)80 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <n5rvUDEuQpTp@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  o In article <vXnXTtygtmov@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:lJ > But certainly the ability to "drop into" ordinary C is a major complaint. > about C++ from the safe language advocates.   F Exactly.  The C++ iostream doesn't seem to have this problem.  On mostF OS I could call the C RTL from many languages, but it isn't that easy.. The problem is how easy it is to get it wrong.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationi= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouphE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:27:20 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <XJIe9TMxwRdq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <OFFAFA898D.FD99694B-ON88256A02.006A0760@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: > H > AFAICR, I have never had to resort to pointer arithmetic, in C or C++.I > Maybe I've just been lucky in the kinds of projects I've had to do, butoL > it's never seemed necessary. It's not that I've been particularly avoiding
 > it, either.  > F > Genuine curiosity here: could one of you give me an example of where* > pointer arithmetic is necessary, please? >   F Generally not so necessary, but insidiously encouraged.  When we were C moving a lot of programmers from Fortran to C, those who kept doingeB array accesses instead of pointer arithmetic were accused of doing	 "C-tran".a  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouprE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingi   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 21:12:22 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87d7c0nwll.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  1 Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes:r  E > Whar annoys me most is that on most systems other than VMS, there's E > no decent consideration given to mixed-language programming, and socD > using multiple languages to construct a single large executable isD > rare.  (Unfortunately, it's far too late to do anything about thisE > -- would have taken an ANSI inter-language conventions committee atI< > least three decades ago to make mixed-language programming > universally accepable).   @ I somewhat disagree. What is needed is that the IS a common callC convention. It is not something that should be standardised, as the E requirments and reality quickly butt heads. IE, if you allow aruments D in registers, how many? What if there is not a stack on the machine?? Or if the stack changes accessability on context/mode change...n  E What is needed is a mandate that compatible argument conventions musteF work across languages. IE, neither caller nor callee should 'know' theC language of the other. Also, a requirement for languages to specify0D the mechinism of the argument passing, ie by value, or by reference.  B Note, that the Vax/VMS common call standard is very different from@ the Alpha/VMS on. Neither Ulrix nor OSF/1 /DU/T64 has it at all.   -- -< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.c@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 20:59:19 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87hf1cnx7c.fsf@prep.synonet.com>f  ( "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  = > I find it interesting that C/C++ are disparaged in the same @ > paragraph where VMS is lauded.  A lot of NEW VMS code is beingB > written in C.  I didn't see Ada or other languages supported for > device drivers.   E Nor till recently was C. DECC added a lot of the things BLISS has hado@ 'forever'. Linkage, Builtins are two that come straight to mind.  C Perhaps you could show us the C code for an interupt dispatch in C?n! Or an AST routine in kernel mode.    -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda./@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:31:50 -0500l" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010302112028.0253eba0@24.8.96.48>  1 At 12:20 AM 3/2/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:p >Dan Sugalski wrote: > >a5 > > At 03:00 AM 3/1/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:e > > >Dan Sugalski wrote: > > > >T: > > > > At 12:22 AM 2/28/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:I > > > > >I decided to drop PERL beginning of 2000 as I got the impressioniI > > > > >that its capabilities of handling complex/nested data structuresnH > > > > >and its flexibility in extending data structures are very poor.G > > > > >To my understanding the knowledge about the data structures ismG > > > > >in the code not in the data structure itself. There is no easyiI > > > > >way to understand a complex data structure or to find out how itt* > > > > >is built up. Do I miss something? > > > >rC > > > > Apparently, yes. It's dead-simple to build up complex data h > structures iniK > > > > perl, and generally simpler to extend them at runtime than in most s > others > > > > languages. > > > K > > >With extending I meant statically extending them because of additionali > > >requirements. > >M > > That's trivial as well.A >0F >Technically yes. Practially tedious and error prone. Want an example?  L Not particularly. Practically speaking, it's neither tedious nor that error L prone, and if you really want to be cautious perl has a hash variant with a D fixed list of allowable keys. (Which can be set on a per hash basis)  N > > >And about understanding complex data structures: How do you find out whatL > > >type a certain hash element has if you have deeply nested hashes and/or > > >arrays (lists of lists)?a > >cO > > Generally I read the documentation. I find that's the best way to deal withhM > > things. Runtime introspection is certainly possible, and straightforward, J > > but if you're not sure of things when you write the code, no amount of* > > runtime snooping is going to help any. >lE >This is exactly where the problem of PERL comes in: it is very time sF >consuming to read the "data structures" to find out what is in there.  A Once again, no it isn't. While the data structures are specified gJ differently--hashes instead of structs, for example--there's no practical J difference in dealing with them between perl and C. (Or Pascal, or COBOL, I or Fortran, or C++) The only difference I can think of is that perl lets rK you skip some of the mandatory declarations that the other languages have, eL but that's it. (And I'm sure you're not complaining when shortcuts bite you H for having taken them, right?) Walking the structures can be simpler in I perl than in other languages, as generic code can walk hashes and arrays.k  C This certainly isn't an argument that perl's the be-al and end-all sJ language--it isn't. The language is definitely inappropriate for a number @ of tasks, and has flaws. You've not hit any of them yet, though.   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------u2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evena;                                       teddy bears get drunkn   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 17:48:04 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later+ Message-ID: <97omck$9k1$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>o  D In article <OF2253DC41.DB6B5919-ON88256A03.00083164@foundation.com>,$  Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: |>  K |> I've always said that programmers should be forced to write in assemblereD |> for a year before being let loose in the real world. The more youF |> understand, the better you do regardless of the tools you're using.  G Finally something I can agree with wholeheartedly.  Especially the lasta	 sentence.g   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:42:43 -0800n! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comt0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterD Message-ID: <OFF5E6D2F3.DDCBCEB6-ON88256A03.006647E6@foundation.com>  G 'Fraid you're off-target, Paddy. My recent work has been multithreaded,oG multiprocess communications servers in C using Posix threads, and tighteE little high leverage library routines to improve overall performance. ' Haven't touched business code in years.   F I stand by my statement though. I didn't say or mean to imply everyoneF should work in assembler, I mean they should have used it to help themI understand how the machine works. That understanding will help them write'J better code. No, you don't /need/ to know, I just argue that the knowledge
 is useful.  K And I wasn't really thinking of RISC assemblers, something as simple as Z80  assembler would do.    Shanes          9 paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au on 03/02/2001 11:41:09 AM-   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   1 Subject:  Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laters     J-F Mezei wrote:  # >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:sA >> I've always said that programmers should be forced to write inc
 >assemblerD >> for a year before being let loose in the real world. The more youF >> understand, the better you do regardless of the tools you're using. >B >I agree entirely. >rE >The 2 courses where I learned the most at uni were IBM 370 assemblerc	 >followedkG >by computer architecture (where you learn how additions/multiplicationo >etc are >made with and/or gates).   H I disagree with both of you.  But it depends on what sort of programming you are doing.  E Shane I've always read as an applications guy -- COBOL/BASIC businesscI stuff.  J-F as a lower level device drivers/systems, etc. sort of person.nI I can understand J-F's need to know assembler more than I can Shane's (if-, I am reading your IT backgrounds correctly.)  E I'm just a number cruncher who writes in a HLL to get results.  I did J read/learn 370 assembler and VAX Macro to help me enhance my programs, but# I do not see it as a pre-requisite.t  H I do not really have to understand the intricacies of the machine to getC correct mathematical results (and why should Shane for his businessh< applications?).  It does help, though for speed -- cf Atlas.  B And these days, do we need to study the RISC architecture to writeE business or number crunching applications?  I leave it to my compilere* writers and people who work at that level.  J Hmm, more relevant to the subject title, I often use VAX Macro listings toD understand some C code.  For reasons that I shall not bother with, IC deplore the syntax of the language (as unsafe syntax versus FortranIB syntax) and luckily have no need to use;  I don't write GUI stuff.  E Totally OT but to follow up J-F's comment, in my studies, I found theiJ course that gave me most benefit overall in the field of mathematics was a% course on the History of Mathematics.c   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,s
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,s NSW 2000, Australiah   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  E Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,a; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:58:27 -0500i/ From: "Webb, William W" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>l/ Subject: RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?sK Message-ID: <D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB750019259FD@rlghncst625.usps.gov>d  % Phased out to Boundless Technologies.e   www dot boundless dot come  ! We still buy quite a few of them.e   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ( > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:35 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 > Subject: RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?0 >  > B > I just had a business partner in Taiwan tell me that they can noE > longer order an ES40 with a VT510 terminal as Compaq is telling himoH > "they are being phased out".  So instead he has to configure it with aG > graphics monitor, keyboard, and mouse to be used only when originallycE > confiuring the box.  We were trying to clone a system we have here,oB > which has not had the console turned on in "Uptime  42 09:15:56"E > )since we had a power failure and determined that the generator has / > recently had too many things added to it) :7(  > C > Now we need to re-test everything with the system loaded with thel > graphics monitor.3 >  > Stevew > H > On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:34:00 -0800, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: >  > >o? > >Motif isn't part of VMS, it's an optional add-on product. I e > have an Alphat? > >that will be running VMS without a GUI of any kind shortly, d > and accessed > >only via set host or telnet.f > >s > >Shane > >n > >d > >v > >o > > @ > >Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 02/28/2001 08:54:33 PM > >u > >To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >cc: > > 3 > >Subject:  Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?a > >t > >C > >Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > >>@ > >> In article <3A9DBDF4.A3D41E43@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass > ><brass@infopuls.com> writes:r > >> > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:t > >> >> ; > >> >> "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:- > >> >>-: > >> >> > I think Tru64, like VMS is Compaq's own product. > >> >>o? > >> >> Coming as it does from OSF/1 (which was its (close to) e > original name),g
 > >I think< > >> >> the OSF is still collecting a license fee for every  > copy sold. Motif > >as well,d > >> >> I presume. > >> >>r > >> >>         Jan  > >> >: > >> > If Motif still costs something although it is open  > source now VMS willr > >be loaded with that also. > >>3 > >> Motif is free only for free operating systems.  > >,9 > >Exactly what I thought. This invalidates the argument f > further up in them@ > >thread that Q would get all the reveneus from VMS because it 
 > is its own.  > >S > >L > >D > >o >  > Steven P. Underwood,DNRC > Whitinsville,MA. > StevenU@POBoxes.come >    ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 22:13:34 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?a- Message-ID: <878zmontrl.fsf@prep.synonet.com>g  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:f  z > In article <OFE90404C2.B2E9EB30-ON03256A02.006C16F3@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:    D > > An operating system without a GUI is a regression nowadays . . .F > > Of course the OpenVMS engineering prefers to improve the internalsE > > (bless of God) ....but in fact I would like more management toolsc< > > to help in my job, even a Java GUI, Motif GUI or MMC ...  < > 	Sounds like you might be interested in OpenVMS Management> > 	Station.  Disclaimer: It is okay and has some nice features> > 	but like anything else is limited.  As an example, identify? > 	and disuser accounts that are inactive for 90 days.  Do this-@ > 	the first of every month and for the GUI that can do that, we@ > 	will have to find other pathological examples that GUIs don't > 	do).i  H I've got a Hi-Availability managment station here they can buy. Ask themB if they want a HAMS-420 or a HAMS-510. :) Keyboard and country kit not included...h   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 16:57:15 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?d+ Message-ID: <97ojdb$87n$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>S  L In article <OFE90404C2.B2E9EB30-ON03256A02.006C16F3@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,,  fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: |> -G |> I dont know why some people like to:   # ps -ef  and # df -k   ! ! ! @ |> Probably they feel powerful in knowing something which nobody |> knows  ! ! !   :-)e  < Nobody??  I'll bet there are a lot more people who know what           ps -ef and df -k   means than know what  O  ANALYZE/AUDIT/EVENT_TYPE=(NOLOGIN,NOLOGOUT) SYS$MANAGER:SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL    means.  > Your little piece of the world is  a lot smaller than you seem> to think and with the attitudes shown here it is likely to get< much smaller.  Remember, in the example of Microsift we have@ all learned that quality is not a necessary feature for success.  ? All of VMS's advantages will mean diddly when the only place iti3 is being run is in the basements of people like me.n   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 18:59:48 +0100 * From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? * Message-ID: <3a9fdf94$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  o In article <g5NvaSNebe5D@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:FV >In article <3a9e218b@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:r >> In article <LiaHbpqS+h2s@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:1 >>>Motif is free only for free operating systems.: >>  H >> Then how comes, that LINUX (distributions) contains KDE and not CDE ? >e1 >I said Motif was free on free operating systems.s > 6 >I did not say CDE was free on free operating systems.   RUsure ?  C So, I must assume, we pay twice. Once for MOTIF and once for CDE ??d   --  < Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888n< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 13:32:52 -0500s+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i/ Subject: Re: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?e3 Message-ID: <PtAyb71Ya0z2@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  _ In article <97ojdb$87n$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:    > @ > Your little piece of the world is  a lot smaller than you seem@ > to think and with the attitudes shown here it is likely to get> > much smaller.  Remember, in the example of Microsift we haveB > all learned that quality is not a necessary feature for success. >   ; 	Ayup.  Regarding cow dung, 5 trillion flies can't be wrongb
 	either, etc.   A > All of VMS's advantages will mean diddly when the only place ith5 > is being run is in the basements of people like me.a  @ 	But will mean a LOT in basements that take up several acres ;-)   				Rob6   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:45:55 +1100/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>aB Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??/ Message-ID: <biHn6.803$o4.41394@ozemail.com.au>r  1 Bill Ames <billames@accunet.net> wrote in messageR) news:t9tv57rtj1fla5@corp.supernews.com...sK > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so that records>D > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this. >  > 5 $ sort /key=(pos:n,len:n) idxfile.dat seqfile.dat/seqs or create an fdl and2 $ convert /fdl=seqfile.fdl idxfile.dat seqfile.datA (check the help on convert as there are some performance options)f Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:21:02 +0000h- From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>oB Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??. Message-ID: <3A9F821E.99F4FF1@herald.ox.ac.uk>   Bill Ames wrote:K > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so that records D > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this.  @ Lots of answers using convert and FDL files here, but what about  , $ type/output=sequential.txt indexedfile.idx   -- i http://i.am/getting_married:, ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581 Fax 08707345230   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:58:47 -0500/9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) B Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??3 Message-ID: <aHNh2px7SK6i@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  Z In article <t9tv57rtj1fla5@corp.supernews.com>, "Bill Ames" <billames@accunet.net> writes:K > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so that recordsaD > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this.  7 Is this a contest ?  Is there a prize for most-arcane ?e   	$ INIT MUA0: BLANKr 	$ MOUNT MUA0: 	$ COPY MYFILE.DAT MUA0: 	$ SET MAGTAPE/REWINDe 	$ COPY MUA0:MYFILE.DAT [] 	$ ! :-)  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 01 06:02:14 PST  From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com B Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??( Message-ID: <fu$7YOMzpff6@cpva.saic.com>  / In article <t9tv57rtj1fla5@corp.supernews.com>,e+  "Bill Ames" <billames@accunet.net> writes:iK > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so that recordsyD > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this. >  > ' $ conv/fdl=sys$input: file.idx file.seqi FILE"         BEST_TRY_CONTIGUOUS     no"         CONTIGUOUS              no*         ORGANIZATION            sequential $    -- e - Jim    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:09:20 -0800* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>B Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??2 Message-ID: <vCPn6.361$Ib.25871@news1.primary.net>  3 "Bill Ames" <billames@accunet.net> wrote in message ) news:t9tv57rtj1fla5@corp.supernews.com...nC > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so thatr records D > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this. > 6 Copy the file to an NFS filesystem, then copy it back.    Jack Peacockr   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Mar 2001 00:15:05 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>B Subject: Re: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??- Message-ID: <87hf1cm9km.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  ; Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:,  \ > In article <t9tv57rtj1fla5@corp.supernews.com>, "Bill Ames" <billames@accunet.net> writes:M > > Im trying to convert an indexed file to a sequential file so that recordslF > > can be merged faster.  I would like to use a DCL command for this. > 9 > Is this a contest ?  Is there a prize for most-arcane ?e >  > 	$ INIT MUA0: BLANK  > 	$ MOUNT MUA0:                       ^^^^^^  $ You forgot/miss spelled the blank ;)   Next!t   > 	$ COPY MYFILE.DAT MUA0: > 	$ SET MAGTAPE/REWIND- > 	$ COPY MUA0:MYFILE.DAT []
 > 	$ ! :-) > P > ==============================================================================P > Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersP > ==============================================================================   -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:45:46 -0700o  From: l_ricker@lto.locktrack.com> Subject: How to convert an indexed file to a sequential file??. Message-ID: <01030208454684@lto.locktrack.com>  : It's almost impossible to catch Mr. Kilgallen in a glitch,( so I can't resist picking this nit:  :-)   >        $ INIT MUA0: BLANKo >        $ MOUNT MUA0:  >        $ COPY MYFILE.DAT MUA0: >        $ SET MAGTAPE/REWIND " >        $ COPY MUA0:MYFILE.DAT [] >        $ ! :-)  > According to VMS HELP, the SET MAGTAPE /REWIND (etc.) commands= are to be used only with tapes which are mounted /FOREIGN ...,; although I don't know why, since it would seem to be a veryo= useful command for tapes which are mounted "normally" (ANSI),D  too.  Hey, VMS Engr'g:  Why not?   cheers,u   Lorino   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:21:53 -0000d From: gneiss@mailroom.com (Bob)e1 Subject: how to determine when file is accessibleh3 Message-ID: <90586F6B3bdorengneiss@207.126.101.100>o   Hello all: '  F I was wondering what is the standard VMS way to determine that a file 3 is accessible, and not busy due to writing by FTP. s  E Inside a batch file that I submit the night before, I have a section mJ that checks for the presence of a file before proceeding, and I also need ; to make sure the file is finished transferring and closed. e  H Using F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES, do I want item EOF or LOCKED? Altho "number of I blocks used" is listed by DIR as 0 until the file is closed by FTP, will w@ EOF see the same thing?. Not sure exactly what LOCKED refers to.   code sample:   $TRY:r8 $ fn = "work2:[delta_dental.input]payment" + P1 + ".zip"K $ if (F$SEARCH(fn) .NES. "" .AND. F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES(fn,"EOF") .NE. 0) then s goto RUNJOBe $ wait 00:058 $ write sys$output "waiting for input file to arrive..."
 $ goto TRY   --Bob    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:13:16 +0100 (CET)I: From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>5 Subject: Re: how to determine when file is accessibletJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103021701001.22641-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>   On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Bob wrote:   +Hello all:  +oG +I was wondering what is the standard VMS way to determine that a file '4 +is accessible, and not busy due to writing by FTP.   ;  Exactly the SHOW DEVICE/FILES output (+some search) or thee0 freeware FILES_INFO can be a way from DCL level.  F +Inside a batch file that I submit the night before, I have a section K +that checks for the presence of a file before proceeding, and I also need e< +to make sure the file is finished transferring and closed.   A  Nothing wrong (probably) with little processor activity in loop:   	 $chkFile:l: $ open/read/write io fileName/error=used	! means: /NOSHARE
 $ close io $...the code   ...[somewhere]...a $used: $ wait 0::2	! or something $ goto chkFile  7 +Using F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES, do I want item EOF or LOCKED?d  &  Nothing from the above, you will get:* %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict  B  Stll, you can use a ON WARNING error handler *or* something like:  ( $ val=-1	! Supose ON WARNING not enabled	 $recheck:eB $ val=f$file(name,"something")	! skip the errmsg, b.ex to NLA0: if $	! you will $ if val.eqs.-1r $ then $   wait sometimee $   goto recheck $ endifo  D + Altho "number of blocks used" is listed by DIR as 0 until the file    Why you have not check ?wH BTW: DIRECTORY uses the "lowest" file system access to check attributes,D  then can get it from open (noshared) file. F$FILE uses RMS and then has trouble :(  ) + Not sure exactly what LOCKED refers to.m  = AFAIK (correction welcome) that is obsolete attribute used onS)  older that VMS OS (RSX) not used by VMS.3  
 +code sample:8 [...]   '  Have you check if the code works ?? ;)i    Regards - Gotfryd   -- tE =====================================================================-F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME1. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:11:07 +0100 2 From: "Thomas H. Pauli" <thomaspauli@arcormail.de>5 Subject: Re: how to determine when file is accessiblee+ Message-ID: <3A9FC61B.9000501@arcormail.de>   
 Bob wrote:  
 > Hello all: . > H > I was wondering what is the standard VMS way to determine that a file 5 > is accessible, and not busy due to writing by FTP. F > G > Inside a batch file that I submit the night before, I have a section nL > that checks for the presence of a file before proceeding, and I also need = > to make sure the file is finished transferring and closed. i > J > Using F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES, do I want item EOF or LOCKED? Altho "number of K > blocks used" is listed by DIR as 0 until the file is closed by FTP, will eB > EOF see the same thing?. Not sure exactly what LOCKED refers to. >  > code sample: >  > $TRY:e: > $ fn = "work2:[delta_dental.input]payment" + P1 + ".zip" > $ wait 00:05: > $ write sys$output "waiting for input file to arrive..."L > $ if f$search(fn) .NES. "" .AND. F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES(fn,"EOF") .NE. 0) then 
 > goto RUNJOB  > $ wait 00:05: > $ write sys$output "waiting for input file to arrive..." > $ goto TRY >  > --Bob    He Bob,a   who nota   $ TRY:8 $ fn = "work2:[delta_dental.input]payment" + P1 + ".zip") $ if f$search(fn).eqs."" then goto LOCKEDc+ $ open/read/write/error=LOCKED channel 'fn's $ close/nolog channel  $ goto ALLRIGHT 	 $ LOCKED:  $ wait 00:058 $ write sys$output "waiting for input file to arrive..."
 $ goto TRY $ ALLRIGHT::   Thomas   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:44:41 +0000l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>3E Subject: Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks? 8 Message-ID: <dmtu9to8klbb6iaoch6jlgn7r8mh91riau@4ax.com>  B On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:50:43 +0100, "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> wrote:    : >1) Why is the BACKUP RESTORE operation so slow? Almost a 9 >factor of 20 slower than the BACKUP SAVE operation? Are  8 >there qualifiers for BACKUP to enhance the performance?  C If you have a controller with write-back caching the BACKUP restore A operation is almost as fast as the save. I can save to DLT7000 at F 10MB/sec (tape drives capacity) and restore at 7MB sec to a dual HSZ80< striped mirroset. Presumably when XFC is extended to supportE write-back caching itself VMS restores on any system will roar along.a   >e< >2) Why can't I use the /VOLUME and the /NOINIT qualifier in3 >one BACKUP COPY operation? Is there a way to do a o> >disk-to-disk copy while keeping the cluster size at 4 blocks,: >even if one cannot have all disks online at thesame time? >-4 >3) Why did BACKUP complain about closing errors and? >full file headers when the cluster size increases from 4 to 9?u >o: >4) (For completeness.) Is it true that the BACKUP message7 >during a RESTORE operation about increasing INDEXF.SYSs8 >is no problem, or should I INIT the disks with a larger >INDEXF.SYS? >.8 >We run Open VMS 7.2-1. I used an AlphaServer 2100 4/2002 >with 512 MB memory. These are the process quotas: >o > Account name: SYSTEMG > CPU limit:                      Infinite  Direct I/O limit:       400oG > Buffered I/O byte count quota:    199808  Buffered I/O limit:     400nG > Timer queue entry quota:             250  Open file quota:        512tG > Paging file quota:                197008  Subprocess quota:        40 G > Default page fault cluster:           64  AST quota:             4094eG > Enqueue quota:                      3000  Shared file limit:       40 G > Max detached processes:                0  Max active jobs:          0e > E >  Working Set (pagelets)  /Limit=10240  /Quota=16384  /Extent=262144iK >  Adjustment enabled      Authorized Quota=16384  Authorized Extent=262144  >tA >  Working Set (8Kb pages) /Limit=640  /Quota=1024  /Extent=16384 I >                          Authorized Quota=1024  Authorized Extent=16384n >d   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 07:36:55 -0500 2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>E Subject: Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks? 7 Message-ID: <200103020737_MC2-C760-10E3@compuserve.com>f  + Message text written by "David J. Dachtera"u >"Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > =-  F >         As Fred is learning the hard way, bound volume sets can be a > management nightmare!e > =a  H >         The only really good reason I can think of for creating one is that; > a VERY LARGE file exceeds the size of any available disk!o  F Well, here's another: the destination of a large number of small files@ where EOF size is less than the cluster size would be on a large? stripe-set. Less wasted disk space by using multiple disks in aAF volume-set where the cluster size is smaller because the physical disk size is smaller.<o  J Well, VMS 7.2 allows you to initialize very large disks with a clustersiz= eh5 of 1.  I'd prefer upgrading to creating a volume set!r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:34:56 -0600i/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>VE Subject: Re: How to replace a multi-volme disk set with larger disks?i3 Message-ID: <3A9FAF90.A1E5A4D8@applied-synergy.com>e   Fred Zwarts wrote: > / > We have a multi volume set of 5 disks for thes  > home directories of our users.3 > These are 2GB RZ28 disks. I would like to replacec% > them with 5 other 4.3Gb RZ29 disks. / > I tried to do it this evening, but it failed,-, > because I don't seem to understand BACKUP. >  > This is what I tried.s0 > Since I have no room in the box for ten disks,, > I first made a saveset on tape (TZ88) with > : > $ BACKUP /IMAGE/NOALIAS source-disk tape:SAVESET /rewind > 2 > This took about 3 hours, not unreasonable, since6 > the disks are about 85% full, which is about 8.5 GB.4 > I dismounted the disks, replaced them with the new3 > disks and tried to restore the saveset onto these,3 > disks. Since I wanted a cluster size of 4 blocks,w0 > instead of the default 9 blocks, I first did a >   > $ INIT /system /cluster=4 DISK > . > for the 5 new disks. I mounted them /FOREIGN > and triedo > L > $ BACKUP /image /noinit tape:SAVESET /rewind dsk1:,dsk2:,dsk3:,dsk4:,dsk5: > / > This worked in principle, although there werew. > messages that BACKUP increased INDEXF.SYS to- > accomodate the files from the source disks.e' > I don't think that this is a problem.M6 > However, this BACKUP RESTORE operation was extremely7 > slow: after 30 minutes only 80 MB was copied. A quickV3 > calculation told me that it would cost a few days 3 > to complete the operation. Therefore I stopped it  > and tried something else.r  H I'm probably missing something obvious (it's been a while since I workedD with volume sets), but why are you doing an image backup?  /IMAGE isG necessary for a system disk, but shouldn't be necessary for a data disk F unless you need to preserve FIDs or have files with multiple directory entries.  H Assuming that you don't need an image backup, just do a normal backup of your existing volume set:m  * 	$ BACKUP source-disk tape:SAVESET /rewind  F Dismount the old disks, load up the new disks, and create a new, empty volume set.n  F NOTE: AFAIK, all file headers are stored in the INDEXF.SYS file of theF first volume of the volume set, so you need to make sure that you INITG this disk with a large enough /MAXIMUM_FILES switch.  You probably alsoe+ want to use an appropriate /HEADERS switch.6  F Once you have your new volume set created and mounted, just do a files backup to load it.  * 	$ BACKUP tape:SAVESET volume-set/By_Owner  
 Good luck!  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------m$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com s   Fax: 817-237-3074e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:21:09 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>d8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken8 Message-ID: <u40v9tgp0q3t03eimk19a1mr9utm0e8r2d@4ax.com>  C On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:25:03 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r wrote:    E >I've now received a workaround involving SYS$ETC:MKSET from VMS SCSI0C >engineering. Told this is a known problem and is already fixed for.G >final release. Will try the workaround as soon asap just to make sure,   F I can now confirm that tape drive works fine with the MKSET workaround8 so this problem report can be closed if not done already   Thanks to al lfor help.e  @ Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires displayF postscript. This is documented in the release notes with a note sayingF a future version of JAVA will not require display postscript. Is there; a kit available anywhere yet or a target date one might be?-   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:19:18 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)d8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken0 Message-ID: <009F8679.F0A8C8CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <u40v9tgp0q3t03eimk19a1mr9utm0e8r2d@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:D >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:25:03 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> >wrote:d >k >oF >>I've now received a workaround involving SYS$ETC:MKSET from VMS SCSID >>engineering. Told this is a known problem and is already fixed forH >>final release. Will try the workaround as soon asap just to make sure, > G >I can now confirm that tape drive works fine with the MKSET workaround=9 >so this problem report can be closed if not done already  >r >Thanks to al lfor help. >=A >Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires display=G >postscript. This is documented in the release notes with a note sayingmG >a future version of JAVA will not require display postscript. Is thereo< >a kit available anywhere yet or a target date one might be?  C This whole "display postscript" debacle is really beginning to pisslD me off.  What moron inked a license agreement that said "you can useD this technology but we reserve to the right to fuck you over royallyD in the future by revoking your license"?  Sheesh!  It's too early in my day to be this riled.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMN            eO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 10:27:47 -0500j- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)q8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken3 Message-ID: <toUqWGkTveaW@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <u40v9tgp0q3t03eimk19a1mr9utm0e8r2d@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > B > Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires display
 > postscript.c  6 What part of Java requires display Postscript?  SWING?  ? (I don't have the 7.3 release notes.)  Am I safe in assuming my- non-graphic apps will be OK?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationh= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupsE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:25:46 -05004 From: "John L Ferguson" <John.L.Ferguson@compaq.com>8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken6 Message-ID: <xQPn6.19$ou6.401@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>   Alan Greig wrote in message ... D >On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:25:03 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> >wrote:g >mA >Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires display G >postscript. This is documented in the release notes with a note saying=G >a future version of JAVA will not require display postscript. Is there=< >a kit available anywhere yet or a target date one might be? >s >--s >Alans  H The latest Java SDK v 1.2.2-3 fixes the Display Postscript problem.  SeeL http://www.compaq.com/java/documentation/1.2.2/ovms/docs/JDK122_VMS_RELEASE_ NOTES.HTML#FIXED_PROBS.    The kit can be downloaded from/ http://www.compaq.com/java/download/index.html.s   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:05:07 +0000-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>18 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken8 Message-ID: <ohgv9tkhm77i2u1ot4okk5pf1bo0du4b8h@4ax.com>  E On 2 Mar 2001 10:27:47 -0500, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t wrote:  a >In article <u40v9tgp0q3t03eimk19a1mr9utm0e8r2d@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  >>  C >> Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires displayG >> postscript. > 7 >What part of Java requires display Postscript?  SWING?n >o@ >(I don't have the 7.3 release notes.)  Am I safe in assuming my >non-graphic apps will be OK?t  E Don't have the release notes to hand but I believe it said plain textvD apps will work fine. Also graphics apps work with 1.1.x but not withB 1.2.x. Why on earth 1.2 needs it but not 1.1 I have no idea. I didE attempt to run the JAVA citrx client under 1.2 which worked fine withnB VMS 7.2-1 and it died with a huge splurge of error messages. Still@ haven't been able to make the JAVA acrobat client work under anyF combination of JRE and VMS though even if I follow the instructions to> the letter, The installation procedure hangs half way through.  G >----------------------------------------------------------------------n@ >Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation> >NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupF >                                | please remove ".aspm" when replying   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:28:28 +0000l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>x8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken8 Message-ID: <r8iv9tg75eimeanpcd4td9ma20bkhek1gt@4ax.com>  C On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:05:07 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n wrote:   >OF >Don't have the release notes to hand but I believe it said plain text  6 Got the release noteshandy now. Here's what it says:  E                                                                     |,9         2.2.2.2 Upgrade to V7.3-EFT2 Breaks Java V1.2.2-1e |m   |h               7.3-EFT2 |s   |D>               Due to contractual agreements with Adobe Systems | B               Incorporated, the Display Postscript files have been |aE               removed from DECwindows Motif V1.2-6. Consequently, then |oE               OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.3-EFT2 release does not include  the  |C               Display Postscript files, XDPS files, needed to run aI Java   |?               application with a GUI on the JDK Version 1.2.2-1  virtual    |               machine. |p    A    |      The XDPS files are not used by any Java machine for theeC    |      1.1.* series; therefore, this interaction applies only to B    |      the JDK 1.2.2-1 release. A future JDK update will remove>    |      the dependency on Adobe Display Postscript software.       -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 18:36:37 +0100T* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)8 Subject: Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA broken( Message-ID: <3a9fda25@news.kapsch.co.at>  ` In article <ohgv9tkhm77i2u1ot4okk5pf1bo0du4b8h@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >I didF >attempt to run the JAVA citrx client under 1.2 which worked fine withC >VMS 7.2-1 and it died with a huge splurge of error messages. Still A >haven't been able to make the JAVA acrobat client work under anynG >combination of JRE and VMS though even if I follow the instructions tos? >the letter, The installation procedure hangs half way through.   8 I once got both applications running on a test system byA increasing some UAF parameters by a lot (ACRVIEWER was fine then,o) CITRIX Client had 'save setup' problems).o  E However, I was not able to make both running in my production system. D Installation is ok, but ACRVIEWER hangs on the same line as the testC system did while the parameters have been too low. I so far haven't=G found out which parameter need more/also raised on this system/cluster.)  C Today I downloaded JAVA V1.2-23 and I will start my tests again RSNz (though I'm still on V7.2-1)   -- =< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888T< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:05:33 +0100% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>f Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L. Message-ID: <97nupt$gbr$1@info.service.rug.nl>  8 This reminds me of the days that we impressed our users.= They often came to use with a magtape of which our VAX 11/780 > system complained about parity errors. We then took a small=20< magnet and "repaired" the parity errors by touching the tape= with the magnet at a certain place. In most cases the tape=20  was indeed readable afterwards.F  4 The problem in fact was that we had two tape drives,3 one 800 bpi only and one 800/1600 bpi. The 800/1600Y2 drive, when initializing tape at 1600 bpi, wrote a0 bit pattern just in front of the aluminum strip,7 so that it could recognize that it was a 1600 bpi tape. 2 When it initialized a tape at 800 bpi, the density marker was erased.1 The 800 bpi drive, however, never wrote or erased 1 the density marker, because it was made in a time  of 800 bpi tapes only.4 So when someone initialized a tape with the 800/16002 drive at 1600 bpi, the density marker was written.3 When the same tape was initialized later again with 6 the 800-only drive, the density marker was not erased.< The 800-only drive had no problem to read/write such a tape.7 The 800/1600 drive, however, saw the density marker and-; tried to read the 800 bpi tape at 1600/bpi, which caused=20 ? the parity errors. With the little magnet we erased only a partc; of the tape in front of the aluminum strip, which containedt? the density marker. The real data was written at the other side:A of the strip. The 800/1600 bpi drive was then reading at 800-bpi,s which fixed the parity errors.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:50:24 -0500 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>a Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L+ Message-ID: <3A9FB330.2F98C4CA@hsc.vcu.edu>B  H MCV Computing used to be located under the morgue, which had pipes also.   I need say no more...i  
 Jim Agnew.   Linda Luik wrote:c > E > The first computer room I worked in did not have a raised floor. InoB > addition to the computers, printers, and plotters, the sump pumpH > plumbing for the basement restrooms was also located in the same room. > It would leak occassionally. >  > Lindat > $ > Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > >cK > > Personally, I think upper management being technically clueless was theeL > > underlying problem. (Isn't it always?) If they weren't, they'd have paidL > > the money for extending the computer room complete with climate control. > >s	 > > Shanea > > 8 > > jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> on 03/01/2001 06:46:32 AM > >D( > > Please respond to jlsuexxxz@home.com > >d > > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > > cc:u > >n# > > Subject:  Re: Janitor fixes 90L0 > >02 > > On 28 Feb 2001 09:10:42 +0100, Jan Vorbrueggen< > > <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > >i( > > >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: > > >OO > > >> Then there was the PDP 11/73 (I think - it was the one with the switchesu > > onK > > >> the front) at a company I used to work for, that crashed reliably at  > > 5pm,J > > >> but only if unattended. The company didn't have space for it in the > > machine J > > >> room so had put it in the corridor outside. When the system manager > > watched J > > >> from hiding at 5pm, he saw the secretaries leaving for the day, and5 > > >> trailing their fingers along the switches...../ > > >2C > > >What, the switches weren't disabled? How careless can you get!  > > >2 > > >    Jan > >iI > > Er... I think having the system in the corridor was the main problem.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:43:18 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)Y Subject: Re: Java and DECwindows V1.2-6? (was Re: HP DAT drive now functional but JAVA brH6 Message-ID: <G4Qn6.22$ou6.296@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  ` In article <u40v9tgp0q3t03eimk19a1mr9utm0e8r2d@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:D :On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:25:03 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> :wrote:  :d :yF :>I've now received a workaround involving SYS$ETC:MKSET from VMS SCSID :>engineering. Told this is a known problem and is already fixed forH :>final release. Will try the workaround as soon asap just to make sure, :sG :I can now confirm that tape drive works fine with the MKSET workarounde9 :so this problem report can be closed if not done alreadys :  :Thanks to al lfor help. :nA :Question: Java 1.2.x is broken on VMS 7.3 as it requires displayrG :postscript. This is documented in the release notes with a note sayinguG :a future version of JAVA will not require display postscript. Is there < :a kit available anywhere yet or a target date one might be?  G   I'll check -- it's actually not OpenVMS V7.3, the cause of the failrerG   was the removal of DPS Extensions (the removal was due to contractuals%   requirements) in DECwindows V1.2-6.9  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:10:51 +0100h= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>i, Subject: Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPU) Message-ID: <3A9F8DCB.8DEDB954@gtech.com>    Don Sykes wrote:H > I don't mean to sound rude, but why would anyone want to use an editorC > like VI when they could use TPU ? I'd rather go back to EDT *lineo1 > mode* than use VI - but I guess that's just me.w  ? If someone that works 95% Unix and 5% VMS uses VI on Unix, thenk4 it is easier for him to use the same editor on VMS !  5 No matter how many better editors that are available.n   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:50:38 -0500:- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>h, Subject: Re: Looking for VI emulator for TPU2 Message-ID: <3A9F971E.22DAE722@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Don Sykes wrote:B  > I don't mean to sound rude, but why would anyone want to use an editorD  > like VI when they could use TPU ? I'd rather go back to EDT *line2  > mode* than use VI - but I guess that's just me.   G I certainly don't want to use VI.  However, some people are comfortablenG with VI and others expect it to be available to perform certain tasks. c* I'm just trying to accomodate those folks.   -- g John Reagank Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 18:20:10 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <877l28pj51.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:U  F >     In general I'd tend to agree. There's not really much market forF > VMS workstations anymore anyway. If this discussion was taking placeA > 10 years ago it might be worth arguing there needed to be a VMS F > workstation which competes with Sun (in fact people did argue that -A > Digital didn't listen and the rest is history), but not today -sB > they'd never get the volumes to make it worthwhile. I think it'sF > more important there be "cheap" VMS servers, but I don't think we're9 > talking $1000 there, more like $2000-5000 (depending on- > configuration).-  < But this discussion DID happen 10 years ago. And 8, and 5...  F >     I'd certainly argue that this Sun announcement suggests the needA > for a cheap Alphastation to run Tru64 Unix though, but that's a- > topic for a different ng.1   Uh, why not VMS? m  F >    This is where deals like the hobbyist license and the cheap boxes/ > Islandco is advertising should meet the need.m  F Yes, but with no slight implied or intended to David who is 'doing the right thing(tm)';n  F Can some one from Compaq who can effect this sort of thing explain theA justification for the $95 difference between the VMS price, and al' complete Sun, *with* unlimited licence!y  E Let's hope someone at Compaq gets a clue... and that the Sun rises int	 the west.    -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.u@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:42:46 -0500- From: "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9v57o1e2mb671@corp.supernews.com>e   David     H We have dealt once with a company named computer intelligence - who were= also claining to be the largest  direct mail house in the USAkH It cost us a whopping $22,000 for the mailing and we made $25,000 profit$ from the mailing over about 3 months  L Sadly - people don't tend t read junk mail any more - hell - if I opened andL replied to every credit card, loan company and car loan offer - I would haveL a fleet of Toyota's underneath my newly built condo complex on my own Island just south of the tortugas !  L Anyhow - strying form the point - as for marketing - the old cliche gos thatH the best form of advertising is by word of mouth - I truly believe that.  J Some of the biggest orders I personally have received were from referencesC from a couple of people on this newsgroup (I'll say thanks again !)r  H That is another reason that I stick around here and sometimes give my 2c worth.  L As for the cheap Alpha's - we still have around 40 left in stock - in piecesH ready to be built - in fact I am thinking of selling the Motherboard and# CPU - only into this NG for a snip.a  K So if anyone is interested, we can do a 533cpu with Motherboard PC164LX for  $399+ (I know I know - I am trying to sell again)    DT   -- David Turner Island Computers US Corporationo 2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622i Fax:912 201 0096 sales@islandco.comB "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message' news:3A9F1495.F186B18B@earthlink.net...t | Island Computers wrote:  | > F | > It would be even better if we were selling a bunch of these things | > J | > What I don't understand is that even this REALLY inexpensive system isA | > selling slower than Cheese in a Candy Store - bad analogy butm appropriatei | G | Can you say, "marketing"? Who knows about these machines besides COV?e |v | Can you say, "direct mail"?i | 0 | I'll give you the same info. I gave to Compaq: |y | Metromailt | 360 E. 22nd St.J | Lombard, IL 60148P | (800)567-6100? | (630)620-3300  |  | Sue Skonetski replied:J | >Just so I have it clear.  Metromail could create a distribution list of say-6 | >all the CTO's of all the top Fortune 500 companies? | >  | >Please advise.p |r | ...and I responded:  |A | Yes! ...and then some! | I | They are also the home of the National Consumer Database and the DirectvE | Marketing Association (to the best of my knowledge, but it's been a,, | while (March of 1995); so, no guarantees). |n | -- | David J. Dachterao | dba DJE Systems  | http://www.djesys.com/ |J< | Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! | http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  | H | This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings | is to be expected. |vB | Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. | H | However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are | strongly discouraged.d   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 07:43:21 -0500e9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)D" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <WQONpicrFsvW@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  _ In article <t9ttapdvhjt2d8@corp.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com> writes:rD > It would be even better if we were selling a bunch of these things > H > What I don't understand is that even this REALLY inexpensive system isK > selling slower than Cheese in a Candy Store - bad analogy but appropriateV > L > Out of curiosity - anyone here buy one of these CLone PC164LX systems from > us...?  C I am not a hardware person, so I will scour eBay for something more B "officially supported" by VMS SPDs.  Perhaps the PC164LX is on theD list, but I just bought a used 433AU because I thought it was "safe"B for minimizing the amount of thinking I have to do about hardware.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 22:24:43 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87zof4meok.fsf@prep.synonet.com>p  / "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com> writes:   D > It would be even better if we were selling a bunch of these things  E > What I don't understand is that even this REALLY inexpensive systemwB > is selling slower than Cheese in a Candy Store - bad analogy but
 > appropriate.  ? > Out of curiosity - anyone here buy one of these CLone PC164LXr > systems from us...?E  C > I was just wandering how they were performing - I haven't had then) > chance to really build on myself yet....  F > I know they run non-commercial Unix like a bat out a hell though ;0)  E A friend has a PC164 ( no LX ) he got from you about a year ago. I'veS; only run it once with VMS, and had to page onto a zip disk.   F It still went like a scaleded cat, and in heavy paging was faster than DU with a swap partition.-  E Only nit was, the Al nuts for the Heat sink went walkabout somewhere.<   -- @< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.@@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 16:12:27 GMTe2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <97ogpb$9es@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  W In article <t9su0jgohj2k97@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:  > L >Who or what is OpenVMS competing against?  It's being beaten by Windows and$ >Solaris and I don't understand why. >   D Your kidding, right?  Just in case you aren't, and speaking only forG _small_ systems, here's why.  Numeric scores are 1-10, 10 being good oro best, 1 being worst.    ?                        VMS             Solaris          Windowsa? Lots of software       1  no           7  yes           10  yes.@ speed of software      3  low          8  high           9  high? cost of software       1  ultrahigh    5  medium         9  low ? cost to obtain system  1  expensive    4  low-medium     8  low ? cost to obtain OS      1  expensive   10  free           3  low|B cost to maintain*      5  medium       5  medium         6  mediumE reliability            9  high         9  high-delta     1  don't ask0E marketing             -3  oxymoron     7  good          10  excellentrE mindshare              1  don't ask    8  high          10  max'd outoE vendor's management    1  horrific     7  good           9  excellentrG academic program       1  harmful      7  good          10  unnecessarycE suitability for        0  zero         5  fair          10  excellentu  "desktop" usage  ; average score         1.9             6.8               7.9    (/12)r  K *Yes, I know about the TCO numbers that Compaq trots out, but those are foroK much larger systems and they do not apply here.  To stick with VMS I had to H spend huge amounts of time porting software and that cost far outweighedF all others.  On Solaris you have to constantly patch for security.  On? Windows you have to rebuild machines.  Pretty much it's a wash.i   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduE? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech m   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:18:27 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)o" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9I7bAv4ietOP@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  . In article <877l28pj51.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, 2     Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:B >> 10 years ago it might be worth arguing there needed to be a VMSG >> workstation which competes with Sun (in fact people did argue that - B >> Digital didn't listen and the rest is history), but not today -C >> they'd never get the volumes to make it worthwhile. I think it'sZG >> more important there be "cheap" VMS servers, but I don't think we're@: >> talking $1000 there, more like $2000-5000 (depending on >> configuration). > > > But this discussion DID happen 10 years ago. And 8, and 5... > B     Yep, noted above ( "... Digital didn't listen ..." ). My pointA is there's no value in having it again now, it's pretty much too   late.r  G >>     I'd certainly argue that this Sun announcement suggests the need B >> for a cheap Alphastation to run Tru64 Unix though, but that's a >> topic for a different ng. >  > Uh, why not VMS? t >   D    I mean to say it's not worth doing for the purpose of selling VMSC systems - there isn't enough market for VMS workstations to warranth< the effort. I love VMS, but I wouldn't go out and buy dozens7 of VMS workstations - there's no business case here for ? doing so. OTOH, if they don't do something for Tru64 to competetA with this Sun offering it seems they're putting their Tru64 salesr@ at risk ( as I said before - I probably would have bought 20+ ofB these Sun workstations instead of a DS20/Tru64 system if the offer! had been available at the time ).n  A    Of course if they have to design the hardware for Tru64 anywayeA if may be worth offering a VMS configuration as well - that woulda> depend on how much re-engineering of VMS was needed to make it work on the new box.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 16:33:40 GMTt2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <97oi14$9es@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  Y In article <97mpc5$kt6@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:   M >I also think that PART of the Microsoft NT reliability problem is the crappyfL >hardware it has to run on.  If VMS supported all the junk that NT supports,E >I doubt it would be as reliable and would probably be more maligned.o  H Apparently it's more like MOST of the reliability problem.  A friend of I mine (who many years ago did VMS) tells me that if you buy IBM PC serversiI (and he may have meant specific models) and install the IBM drivers - andaG avoid sticking anything else in the box (no other graphics cards, etc.)i% then the machines are very reliable.    H But addressing your other point, it isn't having a lot of choices that'sE the most important thing.  What is needed is one very solid componentnH supported for the device class at a price that isn't outlandish.  (ThereH can also be better ones at a higher price for those who need to, or wantG to, pay for the extra performance.)   VMS doesn't need to support 30 CDoI writers - one will do.  Similarly, one sound card would be good enough.  :I Conversely, the Elsa card is a dog.  So the minimum support level has notrJ been achieved - there is a device, but it is does not perform well, nor is it particularly inexpensive. m   >eB >I suspect that MOST arguments for low cost VMS systems comes fromK >people who would like faster newer VMS systems and aren't willing to spendrJ >the money on them, rather than a  REAL need in the marketplace that makes >it worthwhile.   E You just defined the marketplace.  People who like VMS but think thatc4 the price premium Compaq charges is not justified.      K >Having said that, I think a compromise between rellay expensive and really H >cheap makes sense and I personally am in favor of  really cheap becauseJ >I want a faster, nicer, etc... VMS system at home.  It pisses me off thatD >my PC is WAY faster and cheaper to upgrade.  I want my compiles andJ >other VMS stuff to be LOT's faster (like instant as they are with my PC).  H Nearly all of that apparent speed is coming from the file caching, some H comes from the compiler not checking as well, and a tiny bit comes from I Alpha code being larger than x86 code.  It _would_ be nice to have an IDE<K for Compaq C, Fortran etc.  And the debugger is nearly useless on C++ code wF - which is certainly not a good thing if you ever want to get software ported onto VMS.     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduT? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:32:49 +0000u- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3A9FBD21.DDE439FE@bbc.co.uk>c   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  G >     This is where deals like the hobbyist license and the cheap boxes7/ > Islandco is advertising should meet the need.d  G There seems to be a big difference between the hobbyiest scheme for VMSVJ and Sun's current approach to Solaris, where, if what we have been readingM here is true, you can develop your buisiness on Solaris and only start paying F once your business grows to the point where you deploy 8 CPU hardware.  E The hobbyist and CSA programs are not to be sneered at but you cannot F develop inhouse business applications with either, as I understand it.   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukS  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:31:28 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>m" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9vinq5k9ccr9d@news.supernews.com>h  7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in messageu# news:3A9EAF94.7F7387E6@gtech.com...t > "John Gemignani, Jr." wrote:4 > > "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in messageJ > > > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a $900J > > > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitive if the5 > > > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.  > >  > > Well, not necessarily ...- > >a1 > > Are you willing to save $825 in exchange for:a > >r! > >     blue screens full of hex,:) > >     unwelcome visits from Dr. Watson,g" > >     mysterious new .chk files,C > >     regular reboots (in a futile attempt to prevent the above).w > >a0 > > But then, for $75, you get what you pay for. >u > Where do the $75 come from ? >EC > AFAIK a Windows 2000 Professional License cost $400-500 (when note= > sold with a system - and when sold with a system MS have noa > support obligations !).p >   G My understanding was that you can purchase a full blown, unlimited usert= Solaris license for $75 for any system with less than 8 CPUs.d  L I just checked www.sun.com to confirm this and I found out that I was wrong.: The license is free, the $75 gets you the CD distribution.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:03:10 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9vkj7o2aigmb2@news.supernews.com>   ? "David Mathog" <mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> wrote in message & news:97ogpb$9es@gap.cco.caltech.edu...@ > In article <t9su0jgohj2k97@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: > > J > >Who or what is OpenVMS competing against?  It's being beaten by Windows andr& > >Solaris and I don't understand why. > >n >tF > Your kidding, right?  Just in case you aren't, and speaking only forI > _small_ systems, here's why.  Numeric scores are 1-10, 10 being good ort > best, 1 being worst. >oA >                        VMS             Solaris          WindowsrA > Lots of software       1  no           7  yes           10  yeshB > speed of software      3  low          8  high           9  highA > cost of software       1  ultrahigh    5  medium         9  lowhA > cost to obtain system  1  expensive    4  low-medium     8  lowhA > cost to obtain OS      1  expensive   10  free           3  low D > cost to maintain*      5  medium       5  medium         6  mediumG > reliability            9  high         9  high-delta     1  don't ask G > marketing             -3  oxymoron     7  good          10  excellenttG > mindshare              1  don't ask    8  high          10  max'd outSG > vendor's management    1  horrific     7  good           9  excellent I > academic program       1  harmful      7  good          10  unnecessaryaG > suitability for        0  zero         5  fair          10  excellent, >  "desktop" usage >t= > average score         1.9             6.8               7.9r	 >   (/12)0 >7  L I understand all this, I even agree with most of your numbers.  What I don'tK understand is how a company (or two) can take the worlds best O/S and spend K 10 to 15 years fumbling and bumbling until the O/S is relegated to a niche. L Do your rating for 1987 and then explain the turn around.  That's the part I don't understand.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:02:56 -0300s) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <OFDBCEB4B6.B615EB89-ON03256A03.005D3BB6@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  E Until now I didnt receive any answer from DECUS (.BR or .US) about mys inscription,# so I dont have a hobbist license...iJ I am not much worried at this moment  because I didnt receive my Alpha 400 from myr old job until now ! ! !h  = I believe Compaq should sale the OpenVMS CD like Sun does....l  C Why ? Because only who has an alpha at home can use OpenVMS and theeH Layred products in this hobbist program ... there is no danger of piracy and other things ! ! !  / I dont care in paying US$ 80,00 for this OS....w   Regardse   FC                    > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> em 02/03/2001 12:32:49  ) Favor responder a tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come      " Assunto: Re: Low cost workstations         Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  G >     This is where deals like the hobbyist license and the cheap boxese/ > Islandco is advertising should meet the need.h  G There seems to be a big difference between the hobbyiest scheme for VMSdJ and Sun's current approach to Solaris, where, if what we have been readingF here is true, you can develop your buisiness on Solaris and only start payingF once your business grows to the point where you deploy 8 CPU hardware.  E The hobbyist and CSA programs are not to be sneered at but you cannotnF develop inhouse business applications with either, as I understand it.   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukm  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of6 MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:27:11 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <t9vm09kmsc758e@news.supernews.com>d  1 "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> wrote in messageh* news:97mpc5$kt6@dispatch.concentric.net...K > John's point is well taken.  Also, how long before everyone wants all thedJ > cheap PC hardware for graphics, audio, whatever supported on these cheapK > systems.  I can hear it now - "Why won't my cheap made in China non-brandn > sound card or modem work?" >P  ; Yes, John Santo's is correct, you can never satisfy people.   G > I also think that PART of the Microsoft NT reliability problem is the  crappyC > hardware it has to run on.  If VMS supported all the junk that NTd	 supports,.F > I doubt it would be as reliable and would probably be more maligned. >a  K I agree 100% as does Microsoft.  Windows 2000 Datacenter is their answer to0
 this problem.0  C > I suspect that MOST arguments for low cost VMS systems comes from:L > people who would like faster newer VMS systems and aren't willing to spendK > the money on them, rather than a  REAL need in the marketplace that makese > it worthwhile. >s  K I don't want a low cost VMS system because I want to buy one (even though I E do), I want a low cost VMS system because it's a good marketing move.  Compaq should:  C - Make a single CPU OpenVMS license free (even for commercial use). G - Include a full blown NI based cluster license with VMS (even the free 	 version). H - Create a developers kit that competes with MSDN and the Sun Developers- program (Just open CSA to anyone with money).4B - Get Oracle to treat Oracle Rdb the same way they treat Oracle 8.L - Hire marketing people who are better than a computer geek who hangs out in comp.os.vms.  L > Having said that, I think a compromise between rellay expensive and reallyI > cheap makes sense and I personally am in favor of  really cheap because K > I want a faster, nicer, etc... VMS system at home.  It pisses me off that E > my PC is WAY faster and cheaper to upgrade.  I want my compiles andsK > other VMS stuff to be LOT's faster (like instant as they are with my PC).s >w >  > Rick Cadruvi...h >C >s/ > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in messaget2 > news:1010301172914.35173A-100000@Ives.egh.com...+ > > On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, John Vottero wrote:  > >a > > >wL > > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message3 > > > news:tIAXGlP9E8aO@eisner.encompasserve.org...iF > > > > In article <t9rbkvlf52n21a@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" > > > <John@mvpsi.com> writes:H > > > > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in	 > messagew7 > > > > > news:AOlyRfc3QIh6@eisner.encompasserve.org...hE > > > > >> In article <t9q68rip3oqbdf@corp.supernews.com>, "Islandco"t& > > > > > <sales@islandco.com> writes: > > > > >> > Good point  > > > > >> >I > > > > >> > We can get the QL-MT1AE-6X 12 Unit Alphastation Base licensen for  > $900C > > > > >> > We can pass this on at Cost to help us sel the systems 
 > > > > >>? > > > > >> I think that would be an excellent competitive move, D > > > > >> (even though I am not currently in the market for another	 machine).j	 > > > > >wL > > > > > How can that be considered an excellent competitive move?  How can a9
 > > > $900B > > > > > O/S License compete with a $75 O/S License?  That's only competitivei > if	 > > > then9 > > > > > OpenVMS License includes an Alpha to run it on.I > > > >dH > > > > Islandco is in competition with other vendors, and thanks to theH > > > > Internet, locality of purchase (at least within the US) does notH > > > > count so much any more.  If Islandco offers a cheaper price thanK > > > > their competition for a VMS license, it is a good competitive move.e > > > >  > > >eJ > > > Yes, it is a good competitive move by IslandCo.  I wish Compaq would > make > > > some competitive moves.i > > > I > > > > If you happen to feel that some $75 operating system is the equal D > > > > of VMS, then by all means purchase it, but some of us cannot8 > > > > think of a $75 operating system of that caliber. > > > >e > > >tK > > > I don't think that Solaris is equal to VMS.  Do you think that VMS is  12  > > > times better than Solaris? > > >xE > > > No one at Sun thinks they're losing money by selling single CPUa Solaris L > > > licenses for $75.  No one at Sun thinks they'll lose money selling the > SunrH > > > Blade 100 for $995.  Does anyone at Compaq think the DS10 is their bread  > andoK > > > butter?  Do they really think people will stop buying GS140's if they - > > > offered a $1000 low-end OpenVMS system?  > >rJ > > Suppose Compaq sold a low-end Alpha for about $1000 with a VMS licenseI > > for $75.  Should we start a pool on how long before the 1st complainthG > > that 1) You can't upgrade the machine.  2) If you buy a new, higherwI > > capacity machine, you can't move your $75 VMS license to it for free. D > > 3) The system only supports 1GB of memory.  What use is a 64-bitJ > > architecture when it is limited to 1GB?  4) The system only comes withF > > 128MB, memory upgrades are much more expensive when purchased fromJ > > Compaq than 3rd-party PC memory, and why does it require expensive ECCJ > > memory instead of cheap non-parity memory?  5) How come VMS is so muchI > > more expensive on the higher priced machines?  Windows costs the same>/ > > whether you run it on a 486 or a 1.5Mhz P4.i > >  > > -- > > John Santosb  > > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > > 781-861-0670 ext 539 > >m >e >i   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 10:04:54 -0700d1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <et2GEzekw+H3@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  * In article <3A9FBD21.DDE439FE@bbc.co.uk>, 4      Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: >  > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > H >>     This is where deals like the hobbyist license and the cheap boxes0 >> Islandco is advertising should meet the need. > I > There seems to be a big difference between the hobbyiest scheme for VMS L > and Sun's current approach to Solaris, where, if what we have been readingO > here is true, you can develop your buisiness on Solaris and only start payingcH > once your business grows to the point where you deploy 8 CPU hardware. > G > The hobbyist and CSA programs are not to be sneered at but you cannothH > develop inhouse business applications with either, as I understand it.  C    Quite right, my comment was in the context of "cheap VMS systems @ for home use" ( where I'm assuming "home" use is of the hobbyist+ nature rather than a home-based business ).m  E    I said elsewhere that the issue to me is cheap VMS servers, rathera@ than workstations. One of the things I didn't mention ( but haveD said before ) is that the exhorbitant cost to add users to a "cheap"F VMS system is a significant stumbling block to the adoption of low-end VMS systems.  B    Sun's model is certainly much cheaper. One must assume that SunE figures they can make a profit through the expanded sales of hardware-D that a cheap Solaris license will promote. Compaq, OTOH, must figureE that very few people want VMS at any price and their best strategy istD to keep milking the remaining customers for as much as they can get.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 10:09:18 -0700r1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)N" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <inFVxs2HEtNZ@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  0 In article <t9vkj7o2aigmb2@news.supernews.com>, *    "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: > N > I understand all this, I even agree with most of your numbers.  What I don'tM > understand is how a company (or two) can take the worlds best O/S and spendaM > 10 to 15 years fumbling and bumbling until the O/S is relegated to a niche. N > Do your rating for 1987 and then explain the turn around.  That's the part I > don't understand.l > G    If you take the fact that the first company no longer exists and thetH second one isn't doing all that well it appears this is merely a symptom of a larger problem.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:34:21 -0500t- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler),# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COMr3 Message-ID: <Z+R9ApvWYFgk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   M In article <7nMzOlL+C0y9@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes:h* > 'kit name'.txt external description file8 > aaareadme.txt  internal (within .zip) description file > A > This is the concept of Ludens' freeware archive. Is this wrong?e >   ? I'm not aware of Ludens.  If this is what they want, then fine.p  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:40:39 -0500w- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s# Subject: Re: new freeware: SIPU.COM 3 Message-ID: <WEhPyBSrrYgl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   M In article <7nMzOlL+C0y9@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes:p >> .= >> 2)  Unziping the sipu.zip with the latest unzip I got fromlG >>    www.openvms.comaq.com created stral-lf files even though the data E >>    was variable length records.  I had to set file/attr=rfm:var oncI >>    both aaaredme.txt and sipu.com.  Perhaps something was skipped whenc3 >>    you zipped it (I tried unzip and unzip -"V")?C >  > I'll check it. Sorry.g  E I still have this problem.  Maybe there's a conflict between your ZIP 3 and Compaq's UNZIP.  Please try it with the latest.    >> dA >> 3)  You hard coded EIHD$ symbols.  This makes sipu.com versionc >>    specific.t > ? > Not as wrong as you think. The vms is backward-compatible os,aE > so the old image must be run an new os. The content of image headernJ > is undocumented (subject to change without notice) but Compaq should not' > change this description very offten. : >   E Yes, but it did the backward compatability by checking and supporting E the old format by version number the last time it changed.  I haven't H looked at the details of your approach for the fix, but I like the idea.G Getting symbols from .req files means the end user can also use symbols  you didn't think of.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationr= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupuE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingy   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Mar 2001 00:11:00 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: ODS-5 dir structure definitions- Message-ID: <87n1b4m9rf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  ? I am looking for the SDL definitions for ODS-5 directories, but-, can't find any. Are they the same as ODS-2 ?  " Anyone have a copy please, if not.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.c@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:24:56 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>0, Subject: Re: OpenVMS and cluster reliability8 Message-ID: <9unu9tco5af3nhkr9ij4u532rh0u6oll49@4ax.com>  0 On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:27:21 +1100, "Phil Howell"" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au> wrote:  ? >The situation in 2001 is that tcp/ip is everywhere, almost anyrG >system/application can stay up 99.9% of the time (if properly managed)y: >and you can't buy any erp type systems developed for vms.D >(ie. systems that are cluster-aware, use the lock manager properly, >and can do hot backups)  E The aging MANMAN is fully cluster aware, uses DBMS and RDB and can doiB hot backups ($ DBO/BACKUP/MULTI/ONLINE) and is still developed and? sold by CA on VMS. In the last 12 months we've had no unplannedu> downtime across the cluster related to VMS. We've had only oneF software crash of one node which took it down for 4 mins 48 secs as itD rebooted (LOCKMGRERR - known problem now worked around with the helpF od DSN) Cluster uptime was almost at one full year (went live on AlphaA switching from VAX in March 2000) when  a serious extreme weather0B related power outage in the middle of this Monday night eventuallyA defeated our UPS and generator (and defeated my ability to get todB work). System recovered itself unattended on power up but with twoB disk failures (out of 24 19G disks) probably due to temperature inF machine room dropping near freezing. Spares mapped into the mirrorsetsE as replacements by the controller automagically. Compaq field service @ could not even get into or out of their offices (Livingston nearC Edinburgh) let alone travel the 15 miles to reach us until the nextt dayh  F The NT team were still struggling with a backlog of problems caused byE this outage four days later.. No major problems for the Unix team. Asd! usual NT caused the most trouble.o  > >We too developed systems the decset way, but there aren't any6 >GKS programmers down at the CES any more (there isn't; >even a CES) - we also had systems running on Rdb for about ; >10 years before we knew what a database administrator was.oA >It's only in the clustering area that decpaq has kept it's lead.o< >sorry, rant over, I must go - I have to buy parmesan cheese >Phile >b   -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:27:21 +1100/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>n' Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing / Message-ID: <hNIn6.889$o4.43612@ozemail.com.au>n  2 <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message/ news:01K0CENOEPUA00A5OU@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au...  > David, > E > I am not a super user, nor anyone who will make Compaq change their 	 attitude.e >nJ > >The real killer for VMS is that this mode of "fast and 99.9% stable" isI > >more than good enough for almost all other types of computing as well.m SoF > >why spend the big bucks for VMS when you can get better performance withinH > >the allowed reliability requirements for less, both from Compaq and a largeiK > >number of other vendors?  Which is one of the more major reasons why VMSrD > >retains such a tiny fraction of its former market.  It's only theL > >100% <-> 99.999999% reliable crowd that really _need_ VMS these days.  Or > >can afford it.u >cL > What for my team is the main problem of porting from VMS is our usage.  ItG > will cost a fortune in programmer salaries (hmmm, retire and become a  > consultant?).) >oL > All our application software was designed and built on VMS.  The code uses RTLtG > stuff like CLI$, LIB$ and SMG$ and the GKS routines, and more, and isiL > frequently non-portable Fortran and C.  We write/maintain programs for ourK > electrical engineers to analyse the network in NSW and the connected gridr in > Australia. >oI > We write .COM applications to compare automatically differences between  ourcL > dynamic and transient programs, and similar interfaces to compare programsI > from other .au and international suppliers of similar software.  We usee DECsetK > for our "quality" with many tailormade .COM files to enhance our use (one: dayLF > I'll have enough time to make them and the doc presentable enough to	 donate toi > Hoff). >sL > With attrition, our team has been reduced from 6 to 2.  What worries me is how J > do I deal with all the aforementioned (and others that have not yet come toH > mind) if VMS dies tomorrow ("tomorrow" being a latterly defined future time). >oH > There must be many others like me (Phil Howell?) who require more than justH > "fast and stable" -- yeah I want those too, that is why we have stayed withJ > VMS -- programs that can run for several days on an ES40, and being able to, > get our programs to simulate in realtime). >iI > Just possibly a different aspect of "the death", and how it will affecttL > others, we seem not to often hear of usage by companies like mine, and how anyi > demise will affect us. >e > Regards, Paddy >iK We are still running vms on a number of servers, mainly because the systems-H are very stable and reliable, however the economics of market share is a, significant factor in the way we are moving.F The choice of vax/vms/decnet/lat here was made in the 80s on the basis: of superior networking technology over a wide-area network@ (remember "Digital has it now!") , that dec would also guarantee; uptime of 99.9% for vax/vms (about 8 hours a year downtime)s? and that there were enough application packages around that ranr& on vms to give us a reasonable choice.> The situation in 2001 is that tcp/ip is everywhere, almost anyF system/application can stay up 99.9% of the time (if properly managed)9 and you can't buy any erp type systems developed for vms.yC (ie. systems that are cluster-aware, use the lock manager properly,d and can do hot backups)t= We too developed systems the decset way, but there aren't any 5 GKS programmers down at the CES any more (there isn'tt: even a CES) - we also had systems running on Rdb for about: 10 years before we knew what a database administrator was.@ It's only in the clustering area that decpaq has kept it's lead.; sorry, rant over, I must go - I have to buy parmesan cheesee Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 17:01:46 GMTy1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon),$ Subject: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <97ojlq$87n$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>   B I don't know who to address this to (Hoff?) but maybe someone hereA has the ear of someone in management who can at least think aboute it.   @ Why does Compaq not just consider extending the current Hobbyist? program or for corporate/political reasons coming up with a new4> name for a program with the same basic operating conditions as an Educational Program.o  A It seems to me that the hobbyist program has pretty much all that.B would be needed in an educational program except the permission to use it for one.h   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:35:30 -0300s) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bre( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <OF8340A95D.FD8C36B3-ON03256A03.0060032F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   Educational program  ....a  G An University or Technical School prefers to buy Sun Blades than Alphasn	 DS-10....s? Solaris has much more applications than Tru64 and OpenVMS ! ! !o  9 Compaq should give ES-40 with OpenVMS and Layred Products  to the Universities ! ! !n  8 OpenVMS is commited to be a server operating system, for* databases, realtime applications, etc ....  B Because Alphas still expensive .... and there is no standard cheapA workstation like the Sun Blade  - whats the price of a UltraSparc  processor  ?  A And the hobbists must use old hardware .... I would like to buy aiA new Alpha for me (personal) if it look like the Sun Blade....I ame:  saying design, features, ports, price, (< US$ 1000) . . .   Regards    FC        B bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) em 02/03/2001 14:01:46  & Favor responder a bill@cs.scranton.edu             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd      $ Assunto: OpenVMS Educational Program    B I don't know who to address this to (Hoff?) but maybe someone hereA has the ear of someone in management who can at least think about  it.d  @ Why does Compaq not just consider extending the current Hobbyist? program or for corporate/political reasons coming up with a newa> name for a program with the same basic operating conditions as an Educational Program.s  A It seems to me that the hobbyist program has pretty much all thatMB would be needed in an educational program except the permission to use it for one.    bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 10:18:09 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)D( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <tiZUU6QT$CCA@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  , In article <97ojlq$87n$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, 6    bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  D > I don't know who to address this to (Hoff?) but maybe someone hereC > has the ear of someone in management who can at least think about  > it.r > B > Why does Compaq not just consider extending the current HobbyistA > program or for corporate/political reasons coming up with a news@ > name for a program with the same basic operating conditions as > an Educational Program.o > 4    Why not ( in the following order of importance ):  *   1.) Include OS base licenses in the CSLG  =   2.) Lower the entry level cost of the CSLG ( the single CPU =       and 1-10 CPU licenses are awfully expensive relative to.        larger CPU configurations:   	 1 cpu  = $2775/CPU         10 cpus = $600/CPU         25 cpus = $360/CPU         <     (prices in $CDN, I believe US prices are comparable once'      the exchange rate is calculated ).q  ;     I certainly expect the per CPU cost should come down asr; volume goes up, but the curve is awfully steep at the firsth 2 price points.s  C > It seems to me that the hobbyist program has pretty much all that D > would be needed in an educational program except the permission to > use it for one.e > @     We hear that Compaq management is aware of the issues and isD working on a resolution. Given how long it took them to come up with= the current flawed offering I don't have much hope a workableH( offering will be announced anytime soon.  >     Perhaps (in grand old DEC fashion) the solution will be toC explain to us why we don't really understand what it is we need :-)d   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:28:51 GMTi2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <DDRn6.3$g6.42@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>,  _ In article <97ojlq$87n$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: B :It seems to me that the hobbyist program has pretty much all thatC :would be needed in an educational program except the permission to  :use it for one.     Been there, done that.  URL:       http://www.openvmsedu.com/  I   And since it will undoubtedly arise shortly, I am not in a position to aD   discuss the (lack of) multi-user OpenVMS licensing in the current I   educational program, nor can I indicate when or even if such a license hG   might be added.  At present, the CSLG educational program offers the .I   multi-user OpenVMS license, and offers access to formal Compaq support.x  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:58:55 +0000s" From: Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> Subject: OpenVMS goodies@ Message-ID: <OFC0E7010C.71CF77F9-ON80256A03.0057CAE3@eu.csc.com>   So far I have:   An umbrella to keep me dry.s A shirt to wear. A hat for the bald patch.w A pen to write with. A book to write in.N& A flashing bouncing ball to play with. Posters to decorate my walls.   
 But no pants.o  ! Then again, OpenVMS is not pants.n  ! (UK joke, may not work elsewhere)m  ) Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences.a nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:08:54 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brc Subject: Re: OpenVMS goodiesL Message-ID: <OF8EAAD8A4.30C10B20-ON03256A03.00587325@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  D Now you can write your memories:  I and OpenVMS   :-)     with a new umbrella inoD a  cloudy  day, wearing  your shirt, watcihin the ball and using the OpenVMS pen and etc ...-  = The pants ? Where are you planning to get inspiration ? :-)))m   Regardsn   FC        3 Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> em 02/03/2001 12:58:55r             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come       Assunto: OpenVMS goodies     So far I have:   An umbrella to keep me dry.  A shirt to wear. A hat for the bald patch.e A pen to write with. A book to write in.w& A flashing bouncing ball to play with. Posters to decorate my walls.w  
 But no pants.h  ! Then again, OpenVMS is not pants.d  ! (UK joke, may not work elsewhere)   ) Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences.- nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:57:43 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com Subject: Re: OpenVMS goodiesH Message-ID: <OF7D5D452B.03BF8B28-ON80256A03.005D1A4E@qedi.quintiles.com>  6 Maybe the umbrella only keeps his top half dry...  :-)   Fabio wrote:G >>>Now you can write your memories:  I and OpenVMS   :-)     with a newP umbrella ingD a  cloudy  day, wearing  your shirt, watcihin the ball and using the OpenVMS pen and etc ...n  = The pants ? Where are you planning to get inspiration ? :-)))z <<<t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:30:55 +0000f% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: OpenVMS goodies8 Message-ID: <fjiv9to6okd1p3qfl6k7evojc64ecrbqcv@4ax.com>  @ On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:58:55 +0000, Nic P Clews <nclews@csc.com> wrote:   >So far I have:- >) >An umbrella to keep me dry. >A shirt to wear.t >A hat for the bald patch. >A pen to write with.  >A book to write in.' >A flashing bouncing ball to play with.> >Posters to decorate my walls. >b >But no pants. >p" >Then again, OpenVMS is not pants. > " >(UK joke, may not work elsewhere)  " Sounds like one for Dave Letterman    * >Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences. >nclews at csc dot com   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:46:46 +0000t- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a Subject: Re: OpenVMS goodies) Message-ID: <3A9FCE76.B16E7C4F@bbc.co.uk>o  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  F > Now you can write your memories:  I and OpenVMS   :-)     with a new
 > umbrella inlF > a  cloudy  day, wearing  your shirt, watcihin the ball and using the > OpenVMS pen and etc ...- >-? > The pants ? Where are you planning to get inspiration ? :-)))  > 	 > Regards  >  > FC  9  oh dear, I can see we are staying into similar territorye< to the "pukka" subthread I inadvertentl;y started last year.  9 For some reason, "pants" is a currently popular euphenism-= for bad, crap, rubbish in the UK for some months if not yearso now.  A Did I spell euphenism properly? Its friday and almost the weekendg/ and I really can't be bothered to check, sorry.l   have a nice weekend everybodyr   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:24:40 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>= Subject: Re: Pls help with $PRODUCT INSTALL on this PCSI file@& Message-ID: <3A9F58DE.22612ADF@gmx.ch>  
 h_ling wrote:y ../..g8 > Then I changed the file attribute by using the command > $set file1G > DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:8192,mrs:8192)e   Why didn't you do this?:  i= NOTE:  An OpenVMS saveset or PCSI installation file is stored94 on the Internet in a self-expanding compressed file. ../..                        o< For PCSI files, once the PCSI file is copied to your system,< rename the PCSI file to kitname-dcx_axpexe.pcsi, then it canA be expanded by typing RUN kitname-dcx_axpexe.pcsi.  The resultantkD file will be the PCSI installation file which can be used to install the ECO.   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:13:47 GMTe, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>= Subject: Re: Pls help with $PRODUCT INSTALL on this PCSI filed& Message-ID: <3A9F6461.FB8B165D@gmx.ch>  M a more useful answer: The readme file gives an incorrect name for the rename,v% as it would generate a >39 char name.   2 GD2079> ren DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI -8 _GD2079> DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4-dcx_axpexe.PCSI  %RENAME-E-OPENOUT, error openingN SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4-DCX_AXPEXE.PCSI; as output% -RMS-E-ENT, ACP enter function failed + -SYSTEM-W-BADFILENAME, bad file name syntax   2 So, you can do that (output slightly reformatted):  O GD2079> ren DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI toto.exe                      v GD2079> r toto    K                 FTSV DCX auto-extractible compressed file for OpenVMS (AXP)e6                 FTSV V3.0 -- FTSV$DCX_AXP_AUTO_EXTRACT:                 Copyright (c) Digital Equipment Corp. 1993  ? Options: [output_file_specification [input_file_specification]]x  = The decompressor  needs to know  the filename to use for the e< decompressed file. If you don't specify any, it will use the< original name  of the  file before it  was  compressed,  and< create  it in  the  current  directory.  If  you  specify  a; directory name, the file will be created in that directory.l  I Decompress into (file specification):DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI-/         Opening and checking compressed file... 6 Decompressing (press Ctrl-T to watch the evolution)...%         Creating decompressed file...e%         Original file specification: cA DISK$TIMA_TOOLS:[TOOLS_DIR]DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI;1@  (         Decompressed file specification:8 SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI  7 Successful decompression, decompression report follows:n@         File Size: 2375.43 Blocks, 1187.71 Kbytes, 1216218 bytes>         Decompression ratio is 1 to 1.52 ( 51.55 % expansion )*         Elapsed CPU time:    0 00:00:02.28*         Elapsed time    :    0 00:00:02.40M         Speed : 89808.43 Blocks/min, 44904.21 Kbytes/min, 766365.25 bytes/sec  GD2079> dir .pcsi*   Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]  & DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI;1=                         3600/3600     13-APR-2000 09:15:23.33 = TOTO.PCSI$DESC;17          1/18       24-FEB-2001 10:32:26.91y= TOTO.PCSI$TEXT;4           1/18       24-FEB-2001 10:32:27.06V  # Total of 3 files, 3602/3636 blocks.  GD2079> prod ins VMS721_PCSI  n( The following product has been selected:E     DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0            Patch (maintenance update)c    Do you want to continue? [YES] u  p  Configuration phase starting ...  uN You will be asked to choose options, if any, for each selected product and forO any products that may be installed to satisfy software dependency requirements.i  i5 DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0: OpenVMS V7.2-1 PCSI V1.0h  e7 * This product does not have any configuration options.o    Execution phase starting ...  7 The following product will be installed to destination: F     DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0            DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]  o; Portion done: 0%...10%...20%...30%...60%...80%...90%...100%   ) The following product has been installed:aE     DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0            Patch (maintenance update)t   5 DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0: OpenVMS V7.2-1 PCSI V1.0t   -     VMS721_PCSI-V0100 Release notes availablee  e     7         Release notes for the VMS721_PCSI V1.0 kit are a-         available in the SYS$HELP: directory.       GD2079>    D.8 (also posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:14:16 -05002 From: "Carmine Castiglia" <ccastiglia@engsint.com>) Subject: Print Server Queue Retry Timeouty+ Message-ID: <97odc9$qtm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>s  2 OpenVMS 7.1-1H2, DECNET Phase IV v7.1, UCX v4.2-21  K Printing to a server queue using the UCX$LPD_SMB processor.  On occasion, atK print job does not start and the queue manager reschedules it to retry in 5a4 minutes.  How can I adjust this to a shorter period?   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 17:20:22 +0100 * From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)- Subject: Re: Print Server Queue Retry Timeoutc* Message-ID: <3a9fc846$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  ` In article <97odc9$qtm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Carmine Castiglia" <ccastiglia@engsint.com> writes:3 >OpenVMS 7.1-1H2, DECNET Phase IV v7.1, UCX v4.2-21a >tL >Printing to a server queue using the UCX$LPD_SMB processor.  On occasion, aL >print job does not start and the queue manager reschedules it to retry in 55 >minutes.  How can I adjust this to a shorter period?i  % I would start with defining a logical    	UCX$LPD_RETRY_INTERVALv  / (but maybe this is only working since TCPIP V5)p   -- o< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888-< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:05:41 GMTa- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)a= Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATE 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-du1Ghtu3x0dK@localhost>   - On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:55:09, Jan Vorbrueggen s8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  M > The /BY_REF_CALL is kludge, as is the compiler and linker fixing things foruP > you. The real solution is to fix the declaration of the dummy argument - there6 > is no reason to use LOGICAL*1 instead of CHARCTER*1. >  > 	Jan  F Hey Jan did you get the source by Email or have I missed it from here  ?   D Your statement implies he's got his calling convention wrong but if A he's confusing LOGICAL*1 and CHARACTER*1 I'd expect to see %DESC rC somewhere _if_ the LOGICAL is in the call and CHAR in the routine. l i.e.   	Logical*1 C   	call test  (%desc(c))   	end   	subroutine test (c)     	character*1	c  	 	type *,ca   	returnx  ) If it's the other way round then : oops!!i   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:55:54 +0010c% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aug= Subject: Re: Problem compiling Fortran program with /SEPARATEe5 Message-ID: <01K0QESW1BXE00AHXE@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Dave,-  . >On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:55:09, Jan Vorbrueggen 9 ><jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  >jK >> The /BY_REF_CALL is kludge, as is the compiler and linker fixing things 6 >forJ >> you. The real solution is to fix the declaration of the dummy argument  >- there7 >> is no reason to use LOGICAL*1 instead of CHARCTER*1.. >>   >> 	Jana >uG >Hey Jan did you get the source by Email or have I missed it from here E >?  	 [snipped]   J I think Jan got the thing from inference of what the questioner responded 8 to me and a couple of others.  Re, mismatched arguments.  J Years ago, I remember a litany of things on VAX on the difference between J using Hollerith literals or character constants as arguments.  There were G a set of "confusing" rules (and also integer/logical to characters  -- eK Steve would be able to explain the rules very succinctly enough to make me eE look an idiot :-).  I'm not going to look them up as I shall confuse  K myself again.  I do remember that some of our routines were this messy and 0! I got rid of that many years ago.c  H I think the original questioner had routines of this sort of messiness, C but since they were in the same compilation unit, the compiler did a6 different things if they were compiled /sep or /nosep.  4 If you can't remember it, you don't want to know :-)   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,c
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiao   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  F Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most  people,t; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:21:00 GMTh8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)! Subject: Re: PROD Utility Failureo5 Message-ID: <wTOn6.14$ou6.68@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>l  Y In article <3A9ECCBF.19AE19B3@vmmc.org>, Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> writes:  >Alpha OpenVMS V7.2-1a >s >Problem: PROD (ie PCSI) abortsR >O@ >Resolution: Compaq support and DSNlink notes state that if PCSIH >databases cannot be recovered, then delete all *.PCSI$DATABASE files in0 >SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE], then issue a PROD REG PROD$ >VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000] cmd. >aI >The above cmd is supposed to cause the three primary PCSI database filesh/ >to be created (PCSI$FILE_SYSTEM.PCSI$DATABASE,t< >PCSI$PROCESSOR.PCSI$DATABASE, and PCSI$ROOT.PCSI$DATABASE). >a, >These files are not being recreated for me.  3 Please post the *EXACT* results from the following:i  ,     $ DIRECTORY/DATE/SIZE SYS$SYSTEM:*.PCSI*   This should show NO files.  4     $ DIRECTORY/DATE/SIZE SYS$COMMON:[000000]*.PCSI*  " This should show these four files:  3     DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1c+     DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$TLB;1 /     DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1C'     DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$TLB;15      Finally the output from:  >     $ PRODUCT REGISTER PRODUCT VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000]   c& including your responce to the prompt.     -- xK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAaH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:01:27 -0800h. From: Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org>! Subject: Re: PROD Utility Failureh( Message-ID: <3A9FDFF5.474399F3@vmmc.org>   Charlie Hammond wrote:  [ > In article <3A9ECCBF.19AE19B3@vmmc.org>, Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> writes:r > >Alpha OpenVMS V7.2-1s > >o! > >Problem: PROD (ie PCSI) abortsd > >rB > >Resolution: Compaq support and DSNlink notes state that if PCSIJ > >databases cannot be recovered, then delete all *.PCSI$DATABASE files in2 > >SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE], then issue a PROD REG PROD& > >VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000] cmd. > >tK > >The above cmd is supposed to cause the three primary PCSI database filesn1 > >to be created (PCSI$FILE_SYSTEM.PCSI$DATABASE,m> > >PCSI$PROCESSOR.PCSI$DATABASE, and PCSI$ROOT.PCSI$DATABASE). > > . > >These files are not being recreated for me. >i5 > Please post the *EXACT* results from the following:R > . >     $ DIRECTORY/DATE/SIZE SYS$SYSTEM:*.PCSI* >w > This should show NO files. >a6 >     $ DIRECTORY/DATE/SIZE SYS$COMMON:[000000]*.PCSI* >r$ > This should show these four files: >c5 >     DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1h- >     DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$TLB;1e1 >     DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1r) >     DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$TLB;1a >o > Finally the output from: >-? >     $ PRODUCT REGISTER PRODUCT VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000]  > ( > including your responce to the prompt. >- > --  * $       DIR/DATE/SIZE   SYS$SYSTEM:*.PCSI*! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found-2 $       DIR/DATE/SIZE   SYS$COMMON:[000000]*.PCSI*   Directory SYS$COMMON:[000000]a  / DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1a5                            4  29-JUN-1999 14:55:42.41 ' DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$TLB;1s5                           35  29-JUN-1999 14:55:42.22e+ DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1o5                          476  29-JUN-1999 14:56:23.22t# DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$TLB;1 5                           57  29-JUN-1999 14:56:09.79t   Total of 4 files, 572 blocks. 4 $       PROD REG PROD VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000]  ( The following product has been selected:;     DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1                  Operating System    Do you want to continue? [YES]  ) The following product will be registered: H     DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1                  DISK$OVMSV7P2D1:[VMS$COMMON.]  M Portion done: 0%...10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%...100%   * The following product has been registered:;     DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1                  Operating Systemh $       PROD SHOW PROD  < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------5 PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATE < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------P %PCSI-E-OPENIN, error opening SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]PCSI$ROOT.PCSI$DATABASE;1 as in putv -RMS-E-FNF, file not found" %PCSI-E-S_OPFAIL, operation failedM %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error conditionn8 _JXT1::SPGJXT>$       DIR/DATE/SIZE   SYS$SYSTEM:*.PCSI*! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:40:27 GMTs, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>( Subject: Re: PROD Utility Failure (PCSI)& Message-ID: <3A9F5C91.B5E3A6F8@gmx.ch>  = The PCSI command PROD REG PROD VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000]sI fetches a VMS PDF, ie a .pcsi$desc[ription] file to actually register theb product.   If you do the following:  & GD2079> dir SYS$COMMON:[000000]*.pcsi*  $ You should get something similar to:   Directory SYS$COMMON:[000000]g  G DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1 29-JUN-1999 14:55:42.41nG DEC-AXPVMS-OPENVMS-V0702-1-5.PCSI$TLB;1         29-JUN-1999 14:55:42.22tG DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$DESCRIPTION;1     29-JUN-1999 14:56:23.22 G DEC-AXPVMS-VMS-V0702-1-2.PCSI$TLB;1             29-JUN-1999 14:56:09.79:  < and if you do a PROD REG PROD VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000] you should get this:  ( The following product has been selected:G     DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2-1                  Operating System [Installed].  A Do you want to continue? [YES] b  J If you answer YES, PCSI will create the needed files for its personal use, which is what you want.s  8 (also posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal)   D.   Jack Trachtman wrote:  >  > Alpha OpenVMS V7.2-1 >   > Problem: PROD (ie PCSI) aborts > A > Resolution: Compaq support and DSNlink notes state that if PCSIdI > databases cannot be recovered, then delete all *.PCSI$DATABASE files in01 > SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE], then issue a PROD REG PRODl% > VMS/SOURCE=SYS$COMMON:[000000] cmd.o > J > The above cmd is supposed to cause the three primary PCSI database files0 > to be created (PCSI$FILE_SYSTEM.PCSI$DATABASE,= > PCSI$PROCESSOR.PCSI$DATABASE, and PCSI$ROOT.PCSI$DATABASE).o > - > These files are not being recreated for me.d > J > I have also tried copying the above files and the PCSI$MAIN.EXE from theD > V7.2-1 CDROM, but PCSI will abort after the first product install. >   > Any help would be appreciated.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:27:53 -0500o From: William_Bochnik@acml.com. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser> Message-ID: <OFD8C72E2C.644C2249-ON85256A03.0049DF6E@acml.com>  - As long as we're throwing in related tidbits,n   def/user sys$output file  : will have the redefinition for the execution of the next 17 command, and then set it back to the orig.  for examplet   $def/user sys$output filee	 $show syss $dir  1 the output of show sys is in file, the dir is not@      ^                                                                                               ^                     l_ricker@lto.loc                                                          ^                     ktrack.com                      To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                ^                                                     cc:                                       ^                     03/01/2001 04:30        Subject:     Recommend a VMS directory browser    ^                     PM                                                                        ^                                                                                               ^                                                                                                     1 >> > $    OPEN/WRITE FILE sys$login:graphtree.lis   >> > $    DEFINE sys$output FILE            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^> >> I had to wait until I am 50 to discover that THIS exists...  @ Then you might be interested in (or reminded of) this relatively little-known DCL-ism:n  .   $ foo*bar == "@dev:[dir]any_old_comfile.com"  .   $ foo /OUTPUT=output_file (... P1 P2 etc...)         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>= and, 'tho I don't use it regularly, I believe this works too:m  ;   $ @any_old_comfile /OUTPUT=output_file (... P1 P2 etc...)D  ? Both of these generate a .LIS text-file, and have collected allM of1 the com-file's redirected-SYS$OUTPUT, er, output.U  < Yes, this is documented in VMS HELP under the topic "@", but seemsC? to me to be an under-utilized trick, and saves a line or two of  DCL.  ? The example extracted from TREE.COM above has at least one lineu of? output intended to be terminal-displayed *between* the OPEN and- theIA occurrence of lines which might be redirected to the file, but my  ownV= preference is for "less chatty" output, so I find the /OUTPUT 	 qualifierT@ on foreign command symbols and com-file @-invocations to be very	 useful...q   FWIW... cheers,    Lorin:          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroye# all copies of the original message.:   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:23:16 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>O. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser8 Message-ID: <97oact$4ur$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  E Went to the site mentioned below, and didn't see/find flist.zip.  Any > attempt to navigate south, met with "page not found" messages.   Dave...P  H > There's also my FLIST package, which is similar in function to CSWING,F > but, IMO, a lot faster and easier to use.  FLIST is written in C andE > TPU.  One of its functions includes drawing a directory tree, whichS > you can then navigate. > * > ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/fileserv/flist.zip >9? > If there's a single utility I depend on the most, it's FLIST.3 >6 > Hunter > ------; > Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/3; > goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:08:20 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>u. Subject: Re: Recommend a VMS directory browser) Message-ID: <3A9FB764.71F5BFF2@gtech.com>i   Dave Gudewicz wrote:, > > ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/fileserv/flist.zipG > Went to the site mentioned below, and didn't see/find flist.zip.  Any2@ > attempt to navigate south, met with "page not found" messages.   That URL works fine for me !  " Are you by any chance using MSIE ?   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 15:48:55 GMTV2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog), Subject: Re: SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me..., Message-ID: <97ofd7$9es@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  _ In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010301105553.019f6eb8@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> writes: F >I've been trying to get Samba 2.0.6 up and running, with close to no L >success (smbclient works, which is something), and it's beginning to annoy K >me. I know folks have this working so I know it can work, but it beats me   >what's wrong. >aI >*) I changed the workgroup to my local workgroup (Though it still fails - >with XILE) " >*) I set encrypt passwords to No.  L If you do that then you have to turn off encryption on all the workstations  which will connect.e   >*) I set load printers to No.@ >*) I commented out the printers, c-itoh, and frontport sections  ) These two aren't going to be the problem.S   >oM >When I try to connect with SMBCLIENT on the same host with the command line:d >s/ >  smbclient //monsoon/dsugalski "-U" dsugalskii  D Do you know that that form will connect to a Unix or WNT SMB server?   >1 >it throws the error:p >@ >   tree connect failed: code 0u >c$ >and the smb.log file has the entry: > F >[2001/03/01 10:07:54, 1] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.SMBD]SERVER.C;2:(643) >   smbd version 2.0.6 started.l' >   Copyright Andrew Tridgell 1992-1998e  J The general form of the smbclient, at least last time I used it, was like  this:n  @ smbclient "//machine/C$" "-U" "username%password" "-W" "MACHINE"   >nJ >and nothing else. Attempting to connect from a Win2KSP1 machine, the win F >machine yells with an error "the specified network name is no longer M >available" and the connection fails. The above log file message is all that   >makes it into smb.log.G  F I don't know if it should be able to connect to W2K, try WNT or W95.  G Microsoft seems to make a point of diddling the SMB protocols slightly l, everytime the Samba guys catch up with them.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu-? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:19:17 -0500n" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>, Subject: Re: SAMBA 2.0.6 seems to hate me...: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010302110747.0253f858@24.8.96.48>  / At 03:48 PM 3/2/2001 +0000, David Mathog wrote: I >In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010301105553.019f6eb8@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski u ><dan@sidhe.org> writes:G > >I've been trying to get Samba 2.0.6 up and running, with close to notM > >success (smbclient works, which is something), and it's beginning to annoyoL > >me. I know folks have this working so I know it can work, but it beats me > >what's wrong. > >nJ > >*) I changed the workgroup to my local workgroup (Though it still fails
 > >with XILE)e$ > >*) I set encrypt passwords to No. > L >If you do that then you have to turn off encryption on all the workstations >which will connect.  J We have Samba on a lot of Unix boxes around here. Encrypted passwords are  generally turned off.e    > >*) I set load printers to No.B > >*) I commented out the printers, c-itoh, and frontport sections >@* >These two aren't going to be the problem.  C Didn't think so, but you never know. (Old tech support habit. It's @? sometimes the dopey, trivial things that cause the failures...)   O > >When I try to connect with SMBCLIENT on the same host with the command line:> > >/1 > >  smbclient //monsoon/dsugalski "-U" dsugalskir >xE >Do you know that that form will connect to a Unix or WNT SMB server?   B Yep. I can connect successfully to both Unix and WNT SMB machines.   > >it throws the error:  > >a! > >   tree connect failed: code 0u > >y& > >and the smb.log file has the entry: > > H > >[2001/03/01 10:07:54, 1] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.SMBD]SERVER.C;2:(643)! > >   smbd version 2.0.6 started.o) > >   Copyright Andrew Tridgell 1992-1998r >gJ >The general form of the smbclient, at least last time I used it, was like >this: >eA >smbclient "//machine/C$" "-U" "username%password" "-W" "MACHINE"o  K I haven't had to do that yet with SMBCLIENT. The plain -U form prompts for lH a password, or I can specify it on the command line. Both ways work whn K connecting to other (all unix or NT) systems, neither way works to connect   to this one.  K > >and nothing else. Attempting to connect from a Win2KSP1 machine, the win G > >machine yells with an error "the specified network name is no longer N > >available" and the connection fails. The above log file message is all that > >makes it into smb.log.l >/E >I don't know if it should be able to connect to W2K, try WNT or W95. G >Microsoft seems to make a point of diddling the SMB protocols slightly,- >everytime the Samba guys catch up with them.a  K SMBCLIENT on a Unix box failed as well, as did my last stab at this with a zK WinNT client. (Don't have one handy this time, as it's been side-graded to k Win2K)   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"--------------------2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunk.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Mar 2001 22:18:51 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>9 Subject: Re: So what Are we meant to use on the 'desktop')- Message-ID: <874rxcntis.fsf@prep.synonet.com>S  ? Doing aa quick count, that is about TWO pc sales to Compaq. ThenA billygoat will make more money than the Q by their stratagy. Pluss7 garentee that bogware and Linux get a foot in the door.   5 Perhaps Sun's Blade 100 will sting them into action.     -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.A@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 12:22:35 GMT 3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)0 Subject: Umbrella in Germany0 Message-ID: <97o3ab$kkl$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   Hi,$  D my OpenVMS umbrella arrived today (and was sent via Switzerland...).   Thanks,7    Christoph Gartmann;  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:59:11 +0100n$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> Subject: Umbrella in Germany* Message-ID: <009F86BA.2FADAD44.3@decus.de>  B I got my OpenVMS umbrella yesterday (Thursday, 1-Mar-2001) -- sent from Zurich (Sitzerland) too.o  < Many thanks to Sue Skonetski and the OpenVMS promotion team!   Michaelo   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:35:24 GMT 4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE& Message-ID: <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>  3 Hoff Hoffman (hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam) wrote:u :  : % :   Increase NPAGEDYN, and try again.  :   E MIN_NPAGEDYN has already been increased by a factor of 7, as reported. earlier in Message-ID: O     67hc6.257$_O.7678@insync  6  "MIN_NPAGEDYN was raised from 7966720 to 63700992 in B   SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT, an AUTOGEN was performed, followed by *   a reboot, but the system still crashed."     $ mcr sysgen show npagedynL   Parameter Name     Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unit  DynamicL   --------------     -------    -------    -------   -------   ----  -------C   NPAGEDYN           63700992    1048576    163840         -1 Bytes1   Two questions:  <   1. If NPAGEDYN still needs to be larger, how much larger ?  ;   2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power offC/      state, but crashes in an attempt to rebooto  / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.netZ;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid 2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:45:53 GMTI2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE4 Message-ID: <l%Qn6.1$u4.183@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  ] In article <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>, LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie) writes:5  = :  1. If NPAGEDYN still needs to be larger, how much larger ?   >   That depends on how much is in use.  Given you have already ?   substantially increased npagedyn, that setting clearly might     not be the problem here.  < :  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power off0 :     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot  @   Donno.  This could be the controller, the system reset logic, <   the firmware, or the OpenVMS drivers.  Hardware, firmware,   or software.  =   More recent firmware is available, and several of the fixesr?   listed in the readme file could potentially be relevent here.   >   Exactly which Personal Workstation 500 MHz system is this?        Is this an -a series system?    .   How much memory is installed in this system?  G   I'd suggest contact with the Compaq Customer Support Center, as this -G   is likely going to take some digging, and likely more digging than I E-   really have the cycles available right now.S  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:10:48 GMT34 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE& Message-ID: <ImRn6.82$%L5.4679@insync>  3 Hoff Hoffman (hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam) wrote:9I : In article <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>, LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net   : (Jerry Leslie) writes: : ? : :  1. If NPAGEDYN still needs to be larger, how much larger ?4 : @ :   That depends on how much is in use.  Given you have already A :   substantially increased npagedyn, that setting clearly might J :   not be the problem here. : > : :  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power off2 : :     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot : B :   Donno.  This could be the controller, the system reset logic, > :   the firmware, or the OpenVMS drivers.  Hardware, firmware, :   or software. : ? :   More recent firmware is available, and several of the fixestA :   listed in the readme file could potentially be relevent here.  : @ :   Exactly which Personal Workstation 500 MHz system is this?   : " :   Is this an -a series system?    + No, the case says it's a DPW 500au machine.    : 0 :   How much memory is installed in this system?   256 Mbytes.    : I :   I'd suggest contact with the Compaq Customer Support Center, as this $I :   is likely going to take some digging, and likely more digging than I 0/ :   really have the cycles available right now.e :   C Okay, I'll do that next week, when I return to this site, Teledyne C* Brown Engineering, in Huntsville, Alabama.    / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.netr;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalidn2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 08:27:21 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org% Subject: Re: vms programming question 3 Message-ID: <tUO+DhdYrj0C@eisner.encompasserve.org>_  P In article <97mm92$orc$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, "Raziel" <me@vrwc.org> writes:I > I am trying to convert floating point numbers from 4 byte VAX to 4 bytenG > IEEE.  The VAX Alpha running v7.2-1 with DEC C v5.5-002.  The programiM > compiles and links (cc program_name and link program_name) fine but crashes K > in the function call that is supposed to do the conversion (CVT$FTOF).  I > > have included the code below, any help would be appreciated. ... # > extern unsigned long CVT$K_VAX_F; $ > extern unsigned long CVT$K_IEEE_S;& > extern unsigned long CVT$M_TRUNCATE;* > extern unsigned long CVT$M_ROUND_TO_POS;  D The effect of these declarations is to create four program variablesC of type "unsigned long" allocated at addresses that are resolved at 
 link time.  I So, in particular, you've got a four byte variable, CVT$K_VAX_F allocated:3 at address zero.  (CVT$K_VAX_F has the value zero).s  ( >  CVT$FTOF((void*)(&fVal), CVT$K_VAX_F,7 >    (void*)(&iVal), CVT$K_IEEE_S, CVT$M_ROUND_TO_POS);   H Now you call CVT$FTOF passing, among other things, CVT$K_VAX_F by value.F And when the program goes to find the value stored at address zero, itH is likely to run straight into the no-access guard page at the beginning of your address space.   Instant access violation.t  F Others have suggested including appropriate compile-time include filesD to resolve CVT$K_VAX_F etc.  And that is, indeed, the right thing toG do.  What you could alternatively have done would have been to pass the"C linker-supplied addresses to the function rather than attempting to ) pass the values found at those addresses:n  (   CVT$FTOF((void*)(&fVal), &CVT$K_VAX_F,8     (void*)(&iVal), &CVT$K_IEEE_S, &CVT$M_ROUND_TO_POS);  
   Not tested..  . 	John Briggs			briggs@eisner.encompasserve.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:50:01 +0000t  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com@ Subject: Re: VMS V7.2+ bug - directory modification date changesH Message-ID: <OFB3A6E84F.56A180AE-ON80256A03.00463B78@qedi.quintiles.com>   John,OK This "feature" - I'm not sure whether it's a bug or not - exists in 7.1-1H2*K (on Alpha of course).  I have a directory that has exhibited this behaviouroE since the systems were first installed.  Since I don't do incrementalfI backups and rarely need to do any /SINCE/MODIFIED actions I live with theo
 situation.   Steve.  ( John Santos (john at egh dot com) wrote:B >>>I have discovered that in VMS (7.2-1 on Alpha, 7.2 on VAX), theD modification date on a directory file changes whenever the directoryA is extended or truncated by creating or deleting files in it.  No B explicit change to the directory, just create or delete some files in it.  8 Since the point when VMS decides to extend or truncate aC directory seems completely random to a user (who is not supposed torB be aware of the undocumented internals of directory formats), this1 behaviour is completely random and unpredictable.n  ? Of course, if the directory in question is [000000] and someonesB creates a new top-level directory that extends [000000]000000.dir,< this will trigger the notorious "How come all of a sudden myC incremental backups suddenly are backing up EVERY file on my disk?"rB "feature".  (Ironically, the command to fix incremantal backups is backup/noincremental.)<<<    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 09:05:37 -0500w9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o$ Subject: Re: [info] PCSI restriction3 Message-ID: <MYVEfAR3FKs3@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  g In article <3A9F1A31.2EE5BE30@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:c  D > If you find it does work, however, "jacketing" the PRODUCT INSTALLG > command in, say, an INSTALL.COM procedure (shades of DOS INSTALL.BAT,3C > .BATMAN!) would allow for target disk selection prior to actuallywB > executing the installation, and PCSI should correctly record the, > destination device/directory of each file.  D But "jacketing" does destroy the great benefit of PCSI -- being ableC to install lots of products from multiple vendors at the same time.o  G I will cut some slack to VMS itself on this, since it cannot be runningt1 from the target disk onto which it is installing.   N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:01:40 GMT., From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>/ Subject: [INFO] wrong answer in Mgmt agents FAQc& Message-ID: <3A9F7DAB.ADB4B1D0@gmx.ch>   The text in page:bI www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/mgmt_agents/user_man.html#troubleg  4 gives an incorrect answer to the following question:   [start of quote] Q:; I am getting a PCSI error part-way through my installation:o  7 The following product will be installed to destination:eC COMPAQ AXPVMS V72_MGMTAGENTS V2.0-16 DISK$ALPHASYS-72:[VMS$COMMON.]r( Portion done: 0%...10%...20%...30%...40% %PCSI-E-READERR, error readingG $6$DKA300:[SYS0.][SYSUPD]COMPAQ-AXPVMS-V72_MGMTAGENTS-V0200-16-1.PCSI;1r# -DDIS-E-TNF, invalid element syntax*" %PCSI-E-OPFAILED, operation failedD Terminating is strongly recommended. Do you want to terminate? [YES]: %PCSI-E-CANCEL_WIP, termination resulted in an incomplete  modification to the system/ %PCSI-E-S_OPCAN, operation cancelled by requesttC %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable errorl	 conditiono   A:  F You probably have a corrupt kit. The PCSI kit must be in fixed-length,L 8192-byte CR format. Please verify the file attributes and copy a new kit to your target machine. B [end of quote]     To me, the correct answer is:0  = NOTE:  An OpenVMS saveset or PCSI installation file is storede4 on the Internet in a self-expanding compressed file.                          c8 For OpenVMS savesets, the name of the compressed saveset5 file will be kit_name.a-dcx_vaxexe for OpenVMS VAX or 9 kit_name.a-dcx_axpexe for OpenVMS Alpha. Once the OpenVMS"7 saveset is copied to your system, expand the compressed ? saveset by typing RUN kitname.dcx_vaxexe or kitname.dcx_alpexe.m                           < For PCSI files, once the PCSI file is copied to your system,< rename the PCSI file to kitname-dcx_axpexe.pcsi, then it canA be expanded by typing RUN kitname-dcx_axpexe.pcsi.  The resultant D file will be the PCSI installation file which can be used to install the ECO.   D.8 (also posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Mar 2001 18:36:24 GMTu) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)2+ Subject: [OT]: HP Announces End Of OpenMAIL1' Message-ID: <97op78$c9j$1@joe.rice.edu>  Keywords: eol,openmail,hp   . HP OpenMAIL ending (URL wrapped to two lines):  )   http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/u   0,1199,NAV47_STO58154,00.htmlv  '   HP to end OpenMail with next version n   Computerworld News & Featuress  4 Let's hope similar headlines about VMS never appear.  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.122 ************************