1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 07 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 131       Contents:. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.0 Anyone else missing disks from Mar 2001 LP dist?4 Re: Anyone else missing disks from Mar 2001 LP dist?, Availability of Patches For Layered Products( better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' RE: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later  Re: Echelon sons8 How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?< Re: How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?< Re: How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?( Re: Intel joke (When I'm Sixty Four....) Re: Issue dcl command from NT  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Janitor fixes 90L 0 Re: Kevin Mitnick Rides Again... at The Register0 Re: Kevin Mitnick Rides Again... at The Register Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations K Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available for download  Re: My copy of Inform  Re: New Sun Blade   OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)$ Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)8 Porting C-Scape 3.2 or 4.0 to Compaq Alpha OpenVMS 7.1-2 Re: Umbrella in Germany  Re: Umbrella in Germany  Re: Unrecognised Disk + [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners) / Re: [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners) / Re: [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners) * Re: [Q] sys$specific, sys$common and privs* Re: [Q] sys$specific, sys$common and privs  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 14:07:34 -0500 9 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 3 Message-ID: <L5uQtFRzuDwj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <009F89C4.0D4F4BA4@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:F > I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, IF > will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.H > The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?  9 You need to interconnect 3 keys for that functionality...    CTRL, ALT, and DEL!    ------------------------------    Date: 07 Mar 2001 02:51:08 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. - Message-ID: <8766hmhgtf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:   F > I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, IF > will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.H > The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?   Do you have a Mac?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:36:43 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. D Message-ID: <OF663DE747.4978E967-ON88256A07.0076940F@foundation.com>  K I don't know about "Any" keys, but the local tech shop has "Panic" buttons, = in tasteful red, available over the counter for a buck or so.    Shane           E system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) on 03/06/2001  09:47:22 AM   ) Please respond to system@SendSpamHere.ORG    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   8 Subject:  Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.    F In article <9830vk$2j7k$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 7 >In article <3AA07B12.6B698726@childrenshc.org.nospam>, ; > "Lyle W. West" <lyle.west@childrenshc.org.nospam> writes:  >|> Then there is the: >|> < >|>  Press any key to continue,  press any other key to quit > G >Does nayone else here remember a company that made PD Keyboards called F >"Anykey Inc."??  They actually made a keyboard for a while with a keyE >labeled "ANY".  I wonder if I have one of them still floating around  >to take a digital picture of??   E Don't remember that but at a DEXPO in the early '90s I picked up some D keyboard buttons from a company that made custom labeled keytops.  IG got several {Panic} buttons (red) and several {Any Key} buttons (blue). F On my Alphas, I replaced all of the {Break} keys (F5) with the {Panic}E buttons just so that when I was away I could have my wife play remote D operator for me.  The red key made it easier to get her to press the {Break} key.  D I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, ID will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.F The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?   --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  I city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after  them.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:23:00 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 0 Message-ID: <009F89EA.8E8369E2@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <8766hmhgtf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:@ >system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > G >> I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, I G >> will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site. I >> The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?  >  >Do you have a Mac?    No. Why?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:36:55 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. , Message-ID: <3AA590B7.9B26AEA3@infopuls.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:  > r > In article <009F89C4.0D4F4BA4@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:H > > I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, IH > > will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.J > > The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}? > ; > You need to interconnect 3 keys for that functionality...  >  > CTRL, ALT, and DEL!     Don't forget SHIFT and Capslock!   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 17:34:39 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) 9 Subject: Anyone else missing disks from Mar 2001 LP dist? , Message-ID: <zqYKgKxFw1v7@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  : I just got the Mar 2001 VMS/Alpha layered products library< distribution and noticed that disks 1/9 and 2/9 are missing.  * Anybody else notice this or is it just me?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:42:28 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> = Subject: Re: Anyone else missing disks from Mar 2001 LP dist? / Message-ID: <tab81bjuffnce2@news.supernews.com>   
 I have all 9.   > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:zqYKgKxFw1v7@malvm1.mala.bc.ca...< > I just got the Mar 2001 VMS/Alpha layered products library> > distribution and noticed that disks 1/9 and 2/9 are missing. > , > Anybody else notice this or is it just me?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:41:15 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) 5 Subject: Availability of Patches For Layered Products 0 Message-ID: <3aa5736d.16140598@news.wcc.govt.nz>   Hi All,   D As part of getting our Systems up to date I've checked we've got allC the mandatory & level 1 patches, checked and installed the relevent  level 2 & 3 patches.@ So far so good, this covers VMS, DECNet & TCPIP and for some odd reason CMS. ? But, where can you find information as regards what patches are & available for a given layered product?< In particular I was looking to see what Patches existed for: Pathworks V6.0C - VAX Only SLS 2.9C & 2.9D - VAX Only.   A But a method of finding out the Patch Status of any given Layered  Product would be nice.8 Being able to download the Patches would be even better!   TIA. Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 05:16:13 GMT 1 From: pat jankowiak <vaxhackery@worldnet.att.net> 1 Subject: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost 0 Message-ID: <3AA5C3D3.C4ADAFE0@worldnet.att.net>  * The fine XP1000 runs a bit warm, I think..   I did this: / http://www.montagar.com/~patj/xp1000maindec.htm   ? It runs alot cooler now. Cost nothing. Took 10 minutes. You can < actualy touch the cpu heatsink without burning your toungue!> (just kidding!) It did help alot though, as the unit generates alot of heat inside.   regards,   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 19:24:34 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  H In article <y4g0gux5rb.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J  Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:+ |> "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  |>  ; |> > I'm not sure what the point is with size of compilers. B |> > Most of the size of the code for a compiler isn't necessarilyE |> > related to the complexity of the language.  Compilers use tables D |> > for parsing/lexical analysis.  The tricky part of compilers and6 |> > what tends to add size is the code optimizations. |>  N |> All granted. But the claim was "Ada has orders of magnitude more complexityP |> than C", and I was looking for zeroth order effects. The data do not bear out! |> the allegation at all, IMNSHO.   G Well, I'm the one who made the above statement and I stand by it.  But  E I hardly expected people would compare the binaries of the compilers. C I can change the size of a binary by an order of magnitude with one  additional option.  E I meant the complexity of the language meant additional complexity in H the source of the compiler and ergo, the more complex compiler should be$ the one that was less to be trusted.  E I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a C F compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do notG mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For example C DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of the E early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU  were able to ruin them.   D Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DECD Ada compiler written in??  I know what language the real C compilers are written in.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:37:15 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306143631.020c56b0@24.8.96.48>  2 At 07:24 PM 3/6/2001 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a CG >compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do not H >mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For exampleD >DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of theF >early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU >were able to ruin them.  K Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler *is* that  & "abomination" from the GNU project....   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunk    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:59:28 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0603011459290001@user-2iveacb.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010306143631.020c56b0@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski  <dan@sidhe.org> wrote:  4 > At 07:24 PM 3/6/2001 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > >I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a CI > >compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do not J > >mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For exampleF > >DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of theH > >early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU > >were able to ruin them. > M > Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler *is* that  ( > "abomination" from the GNU project....  ' Sigh...  Another bit of false folklore.   B DEC Ada (must be Compaq Ada by now) is an Ada 83 compiler, and hasI absolutely nothing to do with GNU.  GNAT, the Ada 95 compiler that Compaq H recommends for VMS does share some ancestry with GNU C.  But GNAT is NOT/ an Ada-to-C translator, as is often mis-stated.   J And the size of the DEC Ada compiler is probably not a good measure of theD size of the language -- a considerable amount is added in to supportH programming in the VMS environment.  That portion is no properly counted as part of Ada.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:47:43 +0100  From: bob.marcan@aster.si 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later( Message-ID: <3AA54CEF.65EC4E5A@aster.si>   Similar story from my friends:  0 Commercial application written in pascal on VMS:* all io done with home grown RMS libraries,A home grown decimal arithmetic, MACRO, lot of heavy optimizations. 2 Everything was fast as if it was written in COBOL!2 Why this was not coded in COBOL? Need to learn it.   Best regards, Bob     & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > [ > In article <97n9o9$jha@dispatch.concentric.net>, "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes: 	 > >Brian,  > > ' > >I agree, but there are the ex-wives,  >  > Ok, I've none of those...  >  > > several mortgages, > ( > One of those with little left to go... >  > > kids in college, and > I > Why should this cost you?  I placed myself through college and I do not ) > see why my children cannot do the same.  > L > >a few other nuts to crack.  I don't have the luxury of not worrying about
 > >the money.  > K > Neither do I; however, since a schmuck has all of mine, no amount of fret G > and worry will bring it back.  Stress is a serious detriment to one's : > health and can be far costlier than the money causes it. > O > >My comment was really directed at the notion that programmers worth anything N > >choose their language and OS and that there isn't any code worth looking at
 > >written > >in C/C++. > I > "programmers worth anything" should be involved in the projects they're I > coding from the management levels on down.  I remember the migration in H > the early '80s to C.  The C proselytes were preaching mass rewrites toH > make everything peachy.  One project I was close to at that time was aI > project written in Fortran with very heavy real and complex computationoH > involved.  The proselytes convinced the management that a C rewrite ofJ > the entire project would speed up the end product enormously.  The moneyJ > was allocated.  Some of the senior old programmers were retained to helpI > explain certain areas to the new C proselytes recoding the project.  IntJ > a year and half time, the C rewrite was complete.  Benchmarks showed theJ > code was more than three times slower.  My guess was all of the overheadI > to call library functions to do the real and complex math that was justb" > a simple in-line in the Fortran. > J > Yes, newer compilers would likely have better optimizations to deal withJ > such issues and, today, the C rewrite might (?) be at par or even fasterJ > than the original.  The problem is bandwagoneering.  All of my neighbors; > are installing swimming pools so I have to too mentality.C > J > Anyway, this whole thread is getting silly and stupid.  It's akin to, ifK > not worse than, the religious OS wars that errupt here from time to time.  >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   --  @  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329 ?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201 @  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:27:19 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010306151400.02116eb0@24.8.96.48>  3 At 02:59 PM 3/6/2001 -0500, Robert Deininger wrote:VH >In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010306143631.020c56b0@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski ><dan@sidhe.org> wrote:  >E6 > > At 07:24 PM 3/6/2001 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote:J > > >I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a CK > > >compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do notvL > > >mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For exampleH > > >DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of theJ > > >early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU > > >were able to ruin them. > >-N > > Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler *is* that* > > "abomination" from the GNU project.... >:( >Sigh...  Another bit of false folklore.  K Nope. Sloppy research. Compaq currently puts forth, and has for as long as FH I've known, GNAT as its Ada compiler. I wasn't aware that it ever had a  different one available.  C >DEC Ada (must be Compaq Ada by now) is an Ada 83 compiler, and has J >absolutely nothing to do with GNU.  GNAT, the Ada 95 compiler that CompaqI >recommends for VMS does share some ancestry with GNU C.  But GNAT is NOTe0 >an Ada-to-C translator, as is often mis-stated.  L I never said it was an Ada-to-C translator. GNAT is an Ada front end pasted K on  GCC's back end, the same way that most of Compaq's Alpha compilers are A pasted on the GEM back end.d   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------B2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and eveni;                                       teddy bears get drunks   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 16:53:08 -0500A9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <hqH2Rh47VW7p@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  F > Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DEC > Ada compiler written in??t  - Compaq Ada (nee DEC Ada) is written in Bliss.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:29:29 -060047 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <3AA564C9.C01DD3D9@earthlink.net>o   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > b > In article <983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > H > > Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DEC > > Ada compiler written in??  > / > Compaq Ada (nee DEC Ada) is written in Bliss.c  	 Question:b  5 If ignorance is Bliss, then is Ada born of ignorance?    ;-)    -- 1 David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:33:12 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later0 Message-ID: <009F89FC.BF1E29E0@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <3AA564C9.C01DD3D9@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:  >Larry Kilgallen wrote:y >>  c >> In article <983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >> tI >> > Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DECt >> > Ada compiler written in?? >> e0 >> Compaq Ada (nee DEC Ada) is written in Bliss. > 
 >Question: >d6 >If ignorance is Bliss, then is Ada born of ignorance? >  >;-)   Marriage is bliss. Ignorance is bliss.y! Therefore, marriage is ignorance.t  4 Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We've heard all the jokes before.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.            hO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:25:08 +0000f) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>p0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3AA58DF4.69BC674D@infopuls.com>   Dan Sugalski wrote:s > 5 > At 02:59 PM 3/6/2001 -0500, Robert Deininger wrote:nJ > >In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010306143631.020c56b0@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski > ><dan@sidhe.org> wrote:w > >k8 > > > At 07:24 PM 3/6/2001 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote:L > > > >I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a CM > > > >compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do not N > > > >mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For exampleJ > > > >DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of theL > > > >early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU > > > >were able to ruin them. > > >wP > > > Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler *is* that, > > > "abomination" from the GNU project.... > > * > >Sigh...  Another bit of false folklore. > L > Nope. Sloppy research. Compaq currently puts forth, and has for as long asI > I've known, GNAT as its Ada compiler. I wasn't aware that it ever had a  > different one available. > E > >DEC Ada (must be Compaq Ada by now) is an Ada 83 compiler, and hasDL > >absolutely nothing to do with GNU.  GNAT, the Ada 95 compiler that CompaqK > >recommends for VMS does share some ancestry with GNU C.  But GNAT is NOTn2 > >an Ada-to-C translator, as is often mis-stated. > M > I never said it was an Ada-to-C translator. GNAT is an Ada front end pasted2L > on  GCC's back end, the same way that most of Compaq's Alpha compilers are > pasted on the GEM back end.d > - >                                         Dan- > K > --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------<4 > Dan Sugalski                          even samuraiA > dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evene= >                                       teddy bears get drunkr   What about the back-end quality? I read about one year ago that the DEC back-end for C or C++ produced code on Alpha which was twice as fast than the GNU back-end.k   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:20:10 +0000?) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3AA58CCA.75E88527@infopuls.com>   Dan Sugalski wrote:d > B > This thread has otherwise died, which is fine, but you have some- > misconceptions I don't want left lingering.' > 3 > At 03:18 AM 3/3/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:, >  > Dan wrote:aF > > > Once again, no it isn't. While the data structures are specifiedO > > > differently--hashes instead of structs, for example--there's no practicaltO > > > difference in dealing with them between perl and C. (Or Pascal, or COBOL,iN > > > or Fortran, or C++) The only difference I can think of is that perl letsP > > > you skip some of the mandatory declarations that the other languages have,Q > > > but that's it. (And I'm sure you're not complaining when shortcuts bite youdM > > > for having taken them, right?) Walking the structures can be simpler in0O > > > perl than in other languages, as generic code can walk hashes and arrays.j > >bL > >You missed the point. PERL data structures (oxymoron) cannot be read likeL > >even in C because they aren't declared. Unfortunately I have to repeat myK > >explanation: PERL doesn't offer data types, instead you always deal withs > >the instances.m > L > This isn't true. You can restrict data structures in a number of differentK > ways. The most common is to constrain hashes to have only a certain fixeds9 > set of keys, which is easily doable without fancy code.   [Again, you don't understand what I try to explain even it seems that you are confirming that indirectly if I interpret "code" as executable statements (which might not be correct). You may be right that there a some declarative features available to constrain the kind of use but no way to express a complex data structure with the mere PERL code.d   >  > >The knowledge aboutH > >these instances is in the code (or in your head) but only in the dataK > >structure after it has been created at runtime. Which leads to two majoreM > >problems: there is no way to enforce proper building up the data structure.% > >in advance and no way to look at a>K > >specific point of the program to "see" the structure. The only thing you @ > >can see if you are lucky is the way the structure is created. > G > Nope. As I said, you can enforce things if you want. People generally>H > don't, but whether that's a good or bad thing depends on circumstance. > - >                                         Dane > K > --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------a4 > Dan Sugalski                          even samuraiA > dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even = >                                       teddy bears get drunko   Misunderstanding. I'm not talking about enforcing by statements that change user data, I'm talking about declarations that change the compiler/interpreter state. I'm sure you don't get the concept.   ` Two suggestions: We move the thread offline. We ask someone who is familiar with PERL and a HLL.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:27:02 -0500w2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0603012127020001@user-2ive7c4.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010306151400.02116eb0@24.8.96.48>, Dan SugalskiG <dan@sidhe.org> wrote:    P > > > Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler *is* that, > > > "abomination" from the GNU project.... > >n* > >Sigh...  Another bit of false folklore. > M > Nope. Sloppy research. Compaq currently puts forth, and has for as long as  J > I've known, GNAT as its Ada compiler. I wasn't aware that it ever had a  > different one available.  2 Last time I checked, DEC Ada is still available.    F Last time I checked, GNAT for VMS is available from, and supported by,H ACT, not DEC or Compaq.  I think there was a contractual arrangement forJ the first implementation on VMS (i.e. DEC "encouraged" ACT);  I don't knowI if that is still the case.  Is GNAT orderable from Compaq?  If so, thanksd for the new info.i    eE > >DEC Ada (must be Compaq Ada by now) is an Ada 83 compiler, and hasoL > >absolutely nothing to do with GNU.  GNAT, the Ada 95 compiler that CompaqK > >recommends for VMS does share some ancestry with GNU C.  But GNAT is NOTe2 > >an Ada-to-C translator, as is often mis-stated. > N > I never said it was an Ada-to-C translator. GNAT is an Ada front end pasted M > on  GCC's back end, the same way that most of Compaq's Alpha compilers are a > pasted on the GEM back end.   A True, you didn't say it, but lots of folks do.  It seemed vaguely-F on-topic.  (Is anything in this thread on-topic?)  I don't believe theF GNAT back-end is quite synchronized with the GCC back-end yet.  To say- that GNAT *is* GCC is, I think, going to far.e   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 02:53:09 +0000t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <3AA5A295.13372D92@infopuls.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > i > In article <3AA564C9.C01DD3D9@earthlink.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:C > >Larry Kilgallen wrote:o > >>e > >> In article <983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > >>K > >> > Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DECe  > >> > Ada compiler written in?? > >>2 > >> Compaq Ada (nee DEC Ada) is written in Bliss. > >a > >Question: > >E8 > >If ignorance is Bliss, then is Ada born of ignorance? > >s > >;-) >  > Marriage is bliss. > Ignorance is bliss.m# > Therefore, marriage is ignorance.S > 6 > Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We've heard all the jokes before. >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMb > Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.   e If GNAT is the official Ada compiler on VMS what is the implementation language of the Ada front-end?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:09:11 -0600-+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>00 Subject: RE: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD541D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  2 Yes, it _was_ the US government's idea, after all.   Regards,   Chriso  ! Christopher Smith, Perl DeveloperM Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");w 'w  t   > -----Original Message-----> > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@earthlink.net]   > Question:e  7 > If ignorance is Bliss, then is Ada born of ignorance?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:27:26 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0603012227270001@user-2ive7c4.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3AA5A295.13372D92@infopuls.com>, Christof Brasse <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:c    eH > If GNAT is the official Ada compiler on VMS what is the implementation language of the Ada front-end?  ! I believe GNAT is written in Ada.o   -- s Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comf   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:17:34 -0500'" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010307001501.01f7f150@24.8.96.48>  1 At 01:25 AM 3/7/2001 +0000, Christof Brass wrote:n >Dan Sugalski wrote: > >t7 > > At 02:59 PM 3/6/2001 -0500, Robert Deininger wrote:hL > > >In article <5.0.2.1.0.20010306143631.020c56b0@24.8.96.48>, Dan Sugalski > > ><dan@sidhe.org> wrote:t > > >a: > > > > At 07:24 PM 3/6/2001 +0000, Bill Gunshannon wrote:N > > > > >I wold like to see a comparison of the number of lines of code in a CO > > > > >compiler as compared to an Ada compiler.  And by a C compiler I do notoI > > > > >mean that abomination from Gnu.  I mean a real C compiler.  For e	 > example L > > > > >DEC C vs DEC Ada.  I can even provide the count for a couple of theN > > > > >early Unix C compilers which were done before people like ANSI or GNU  > > > > >were able to ruin them. > > > >oI > > > > Well, you're going to be out of luck, then. The Dec ADA compiler   > *is* thath. > > > > "abomination" from the GNU project.... > > >g, > > >Sigh...  Another bit of false folklore. > >cN > > Nope. Sloppy research. Compaq currently puts forth, and has for as long asK > > I've known, GNAT as its Ada compiler. I wasn't aware that it ever had ao > > different one available. > >yG > > >DEC Ada (must be Compaq Ada by now) is an Ada 83 compiler, and has N > > >absolutely nothing to do with GNU.  GNAT, the Ada 95 compiler that CompaqM > > >recommends for VMS does share some ancestry with GNU C.  But GNAT is NOTs4 > > >an Ada-to-C translator, as is often mis-stated. > >eO > > I never said it was an Ada-to-C translator. GNAT is an Ada front end pasted N > > on  GCC's back end, the same way that most of Compaq's Alpha compilers are > > pasted on the GEM back end.d > I >What about the back-end quality? I read about one year ago that the DEC  K >back-end for C or C++ produced code on Alpha which was twice as fast than   >the GNU back-end.  J I have no idea what the back end quality's like. GCC 2.8.x produces lousy I code for Alphas, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's substandard. Whether -K it's better or worse than Dec's Ada compiler's a separate issue, given the a age of that compiler.R   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------.2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even.;                                       teddy bears get drunk:   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:08:45 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: Re: Echelon sonss( Message-ID: <983cfk$c4s$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  C fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br heeft geschreven in bericht ... K >Sounds interesting this article from The Register... about the translatingt >soft (???) called FLUENT. >y2 >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17361.html >SJ >"Salvation: FLUENT allows them to search on "nuclear warhead" in English,	 and still K > dredge up Chinese (or whatever) documents for people with actual language. skills: >to translate and evaluate for them. Is that cool or what? >cF >Presently, FLUENT can translate Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, Serbo-Croatian  > and Ukrainian, Reuters says. " >a > L >Do the CIA think us (Brazil)  or Portugal, Angola, Mozambique or East Timor
 a menace ????  >   . Of course not, it's Portugal they're after :-)   >  >Regards >  >FCq >r >m >d >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:55:02 -0600t) From: Belinda Lerma <belindal@hiline.net>eA Subject: How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?e* Message-ID: <3AA55CB6.12A7F2D5@hiline.net>  F I need to dump the contents of a mounted tape drive into an ASCII file	 to verify-D that the data are correct but not sure how to do this.  I have tried setting my defaultE directory to the tape device but "normal" commands such as DIR do not  work# as the data is not file structured.   E Can anyone enlighten me on how to get a tape drives contents out into- a file?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:23:59 -0600r7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>nE Subject: Re: How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?c- Message-ID: <3AA5637F.CAEB9098@earthlink.net>g   Belinda Lerma wrote: > H > I need to dump the contents of a mounted tape drive into an ASCII file > to verify F > that the data are correct but not sure how to do this.  I have tried > setting my defaultG > directory to the tape device but "normal" commands such as DIR do notd > work% > as the data is not file structured.u > G > Can anyone enlighten me on how to get a tape drives contents out into9	 > a file?n   Well, here's two ways:   With tape MOUNTed FILES-11:2* $ DUMP/RECORD ddcu:<>filespec/OUT=filespec   With tape MOUNTed /FOREIGN:: $ DUMP ddcu:/OUT=filespecr  C This produces a formatted dump that you can read with EDT or TPU toiG verify the contents of the records or tape blocks, whichever suits youri needs.   Hope this helps...   -- s David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.s   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 22:24:27 GMT-3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) E Subject: Re: How to dump contents of a tape drive into an ASCII file?D0 Message-ID: <983o2r$2nh$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  V In article <3AA55CB6.12A7F2D5@hiline.net>, Belinda Lerma <belindal@hiline.net> writes:G >I need to dump the contents of a mounted tape drive into an ASCII fileo
 >to verifyE >that the data are correct but not sure how to do this.  I have triedd >setting my defaultrF >directory to the tape device but "normal" commands such as DIR do not >work $ >as the data is not file structured. > F >Can anyone enlighten me on how to get a tape drives contents out into >a file?  A It depends on how the file has been written to tape. You may try:e"   $ COPY tape:*.*;* your_dir: /LOG Or   $ DUMP/OUT=my_file tape:=   (see HELP DUMP for some additional and helpful qualifiers).    Regards,    Christoph Gartmannu  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:06:34 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>1 Subject: Re: Intel joke (When I'm Sixty Four....)i: Message-ID: <_yap6.3034$5f.805020@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  0 "P.Lj" <plj@byron.ext.telia.se> wrote in message, news:3AA5323A.CA40E171@byron.ext.telia.se... >oA > Correct, we tried that one this afternoon (DS10), wonder if theD > GS*-machines has a tune ?p  H If so, it's certainly not the Death March that used to play on my rottenG Apple MacIIsi when it all-too-frequently went into catastrophic failure  mode.   H At least the Apple engineers were honest about the data and productivity implications of Mac failures.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:08:09 GMT & From: Earl Lakia <elakia@netnitco.net>& Subject: Re: Issue dcl command from NT, Message-ID: <3AA5A72A.7BE8763E@netnitco.net>  = There is an example in the DCOM kit.  It allows you to send aA$ command to VMS and have it executed.   -earlp   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  O > In article <8Qan6.40$DQ2.422@client>, "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com> writes:oP > > Is there any way to have my NT server issue command on a Alphavms system run > > version 4.2 of ucx >e4 > You can certainly do this with COM (DCOM) for VMS, > but I don't know the details.    --5 -----------------------------------------------------a Click here for Free Video!!h  http://www.gohip.com/free_video/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:08:34 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L, Message-ID: <3AA56DE7.C68513FE@videotron.ca>   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:a > B > I know of a military base in Georgia (US State not Former Soviet@ > Republic) that had a radar system called PAVE PAWS that was soE > powerful that they had to turn it off when aircraft landed to avoidi9 > accidental armament activation :^P on fighter aircraft.-  a On my long bicycle trips, I have speakers mounted on my handlbars with a small walkman/amplifier.c  I In 1986, near the border of Alberta/Saskatchewan (near Fisk), my speakersfM would do a buzzing sound at regular intervals. Thought it was a defect. But I  was near an airforce base.  J Also, when I ride my bike on the IONA Beach pier directly behind VancouverB Intl Airport, I also get that buzzing sound at regular intervals.   G This means that airport radars have enough energy to cause speakers (or F perhaps the amplifier) to buzz lond enough for me to hear it outdoors.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:31:14 -0800F! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com  Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90LD Message-ID: <OFC632CED0.EA62CA7C-ON88256A07.00756DD8@foundation.com>  E By co-incidence, I found this in my random surfing last night. The UShK military is working on a non-lethal microwave based weapon for use in crowdc control:  C http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/02/new.weapon.02/index.html   A                   The weapon is designed to stop people by firingrB                   millimeter-wave electromagnetic energy in a beamC                   that quickly heats up the surface of the victim'sLD                   skin. Within seconds the person feels pain that is4                   akin to touching a hot light bulb.                   ......8        Michael Murphy, an Air Force lab researcher, saidB                   the beam could be used safely.  "We've tested 72F                   humans that have had over 6,500 exposures," he said.   I'm glad I'm not in that job...m  ( Score 1 against the pigeon story though.   Shanel          9 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> on 03/06/2001 06:19:59 AMe   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma cc:e   Subject:  Re: Janitor fixes 90Lo    / On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:09:13 +0000, Nigel Arnote$ <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> wrote:  J >> > I was always fond of the one about the dead pigeons they kept finding onE >> > the steps of the Baltic Exchange in London. It took a while, buto someoneoK >> > finally realised that they were flying through beam from the microwaveiD >> > communications dish on top of (I think) the Net West tower, and gettingh >> > cooked mid flight.n >>K >> I suspect this is an urban legend. You can easily do _power_transfer_ ino thesF >> microwave band and have people safely stand in the beam without any dangerH >> whatsoever. You wouldn't do data transfer on the water band (2.1 GHz, IIRC) K >> that is used by a microwave oven anyway, because air contains a variable  buttH >> potentially large amount of water ("the rain in Spain falls mainly in the G >> plain"), and having a broken link in a London fog isn't that good an 	 idea. But H >> even if you were using that band, it will take about 30s to a minute, I'dnE >> guesstimate, at quite high power levels to "cook" a pigeon's braint enough.i >> >t >Agreed. >oI >the version of the story I've heard involved dead seagulls, a destroyer,sG >and a navy radar system. Slightly more plausible - some navy microwaveRC >systems are dangerously high-powered - but probably also a legend.0  C I saw a news report just a couple of weeks ago about the death of a E security guard very recently  I think in the US or Canada. ApparentlyeE the guard had a habit of sitting in line of site of a large microwave.D comms dish to enjoy the outside air and stay warm, He had apparentlyE been warned many times not to do this but no action had been taken. A A combination of snow risk and high usage over Christmas caused thetF telco to increase transmission power around tenfold and when the guard9 sat in front of it he fell asleep and was cooked to deathn        Yours,k >         Nigel Arnoto" >         NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK > ? >         "In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."    -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:26:58 GMTt* From: martin.hunt@nbnz.co.nz (Martin Hunt) Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L. Message-ID: <3aa5a5dc.9005969@news.xtra.co.nz>  , On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:08:34 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:m  H >This means that airport radars have enough energy to cause speakers (orG >perhaps the amplifier) to buzz lond enough for me to hear it outdoors.i  C I live 15km or so from a radar station located on a hilltop. BeforeoE they upgraded it, I would get a squeak about every 10 seconds from myaD tv or telephone as it rotated (the radar, that is!). It was replacedB by a new radar which operates on a different frequency and doesn'tB cause the same problem, although I still get the occasional squeak, through the phone - possibly local shipping.E As for the digital cell phones, they really play havoc with speakers.  -- Martin Hunt- Technical Specialist National Bank of New Zealand   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:10 -0500% From: Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net>D9 Subject: Re: Kevin Mitnick Rides Again... at The Register-5 Message-ID: <MPG.150f283213bae78e9896fe@news.alt.net>r  4 In article <N$if9qj6ddBh@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars says...g > In article <FOekOvJlf12QbVPa5=kqk8Wcy4v6@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com> writes:1= > > Thanks, Terry.  This was a good article.  If anyone wouldi< > > know what he's talking about regarding this subject, Mr. > > Mitnick would be it. > K > Now, how do I stop everybody and their brother from using my SSN as my IDOL > number. My employer IS my health care provider, and I can't even go to theL > doctor, dentist, or eye doctor without divulging it to everyone and havingG > them pass it around like an STD. Refuse to provide it and they refusen > treatment! >   G Bob, insist that they provide you with an alternate ID number. Medical mJ units do not have a defined right to use the SSN as an ID. There are ways 
 around it.  J The law requires that those that do not have a specific legal need to use . you SSN as an ID must give you an alternative.  C Once you get an alternate ID you will probably experience A LOT OF fE CONFUSION because they will need to reference your previous history. a) There are ways to change those histories.-  . Here is a link to a document concerning SSNs.:, http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs10-ssn.htm   Here is the main link: http://www.privacyrights.org/    Karl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:23:14 GMT ' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>e9 Subject: Re: Kevin Mitnick Rides Again... at The Registero0 Message-ID: <3AA5727C.C5F2ACF3@bellatlantic.net>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:P >  > Stomp the identity thieves > By: Kevin Mitnicke! > Posted: 05/03/2001 at 19:17 GMTr > I > Identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the country, ands8 > there's no doubt that the Internet makes it easier.... > 3 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17358.htmlm; hmm, wasn't some guy named palmer involved in facilitating D/ identity theft?  Where is DEC? Where is Palmer?r bb   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:07:55 +0100A= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>." Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA5358B.6D9934D4@gtech.com>m   John Vottero wrote:oD > > As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations are > > just good marketing. > K > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use it7N > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on eBayJ > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theK > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to legally  > transfer the license./  F Do you think the software engineers working on Solaris work for free ?   No - they get paid by SUN !   H Do you think it is the SUN stockholders that pay for Solaris development ?0  7 No - they wanta profit just like any other stockholder.o  ) There are only one to pay: the customer !C  @ So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costs= are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of then: SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.1 Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems.f  ? But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay.    Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:24:00 -0500' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>D" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations( Message-ID: <983gmp$li2$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message # news:3AA5358B.6D9934D4@gtech.com...r > John Vottero wrote:aF > > > As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations are > > > just good marketing. > >rJ > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use itK > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on  eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theE > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to  legally  > > transfer the license.t > H > Do you think the software engineers working on Solaris work for free ? >e > No - they get paid by SUN !a >mJ > Do you think it is the SUN stockholders that pay for Solaris development > ?y > 9 > No - they wanta profit just like any other stockholder.C >p+ > There are only one to pay: the customer !  >nB > So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costs? > are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of theb< > SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.3 > Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems.t >aA > But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay.-  ! The question is, which customers?-  L At Sun, it appears, at least on the surface, that the high-end customers payH for Solaris development, and the low-end customers get a relatively free  ride to help boost market share.  J At Compaq, it appears that Alpha customers across the board pay to support other segments of the company.   - bill   >E > Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:17:36 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <taahfo64s3u3ac@news.supernews.com>s  7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message/# news:3AA5358B.6D9934D4@gtech.com...: > John Vottero wrote:sF > > > As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations are > > > just good marketing. > >eJ > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use itK > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on  eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theE > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to? legally  > > transfer the license.g >tH > Do you think the software engineers working on Solaris work for free ? >- > No - they get paid by SUN !  > J > Do you think it is the SUN stockholders that pay for Solaris development > ?  >p9 > No - they wanta profit just like any other stockholder.  >A+ > There are only one to pay: the customer !t >cB > So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costs? > are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of the < > SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.3 > Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems.t >lA > But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay.e >o  K Of course the customer winds up paying.  OpenVMS development could never beaH supported by the revenues from small systems.  I'm sure that the revenueJ contribution from small systems is negligible compared to the revenue fromF mid and large size systems.  That's why they should give it away!  TheJ marketing value is worth much more than the revenue loss!  Sun understands this.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 20:23:20 GMT.2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <983gvo$i3d@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  i In article <3AA4A343.83374B1D@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:i >David Mathog wrote: >> In article <y4vgpow5np.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:sC >> >Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:iM >> >> > suitability for        0  zero         5  fair          10  excellent  >> >> >  "desktop" usageJ >> >> Since VMS and Solaris uses the same GUI (X/Motif/CDE), then I do not' >> >> understand the different scores !  >> >> >> >I didn't notice that one initially. This is clearly bogus. >> wM >> No it isn't.  Go set up a machine for desktop usage, ie, by a Secretary orcL >> other nontechnical user.  It's a nobrainer for Windows - you buy one fromK >> any of a zillion vendors with Windows, MS Office, and maybe a drawing or-I >> web design program or two.  The Secretary goes to work and you're donemL >> (until the machine breaks.)  You simply cannot configure a VMS machine toF >> do this sort of work in a configuration that will satisfy this sameM >> Secretary, mostly because the software doesn't exist.  You can get halfwaylJ >> there for Solaris (StarOffice), and even closer with Linux (intel only, >> with WordPerfect and such). >h >????a >cE >That is not "platform suitability" that is "available software" oncer >again !  I It's hard to make the criteria perfectly orthogonal.  The former is a mixhI of the latter and the stability of the windowing system.  (And I throw inaL the "desktop metaphor" supported by the platfrom under available software.) F But the stability consideration doesn't help VMS much because the ElsaI graphics adapter for the DS10 crashes and goes to the login screen when IfK use the only supported (sic) browser (Netscape 3.03) for too long.  And I'm-I not talking days - an hour or two will do it.  It's not as bad as a blue uJ screen, but it does kill everything that was running on the screen at the H time.  I hate blue screens as much as the next guy, but in between thoseH you can get something useful done in a "desktop" environment, and that's not true on VMS.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduo? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech -   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:41:30 +0200 (MET)r1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <01K0W3JNE24G9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>L  J > Of course the customer winds up paying.  OpenVMS development could neverE > be supported by the revenues from small systems.  I'm sure that theoG > revenue contribution from small systems is negligible compared to thehJ > revenue from mid and large size systems.  That's why they should give itG > away!  The marketing value is worth much more than the revenue loss! e > Sun understands this.   F Agreed.  However, it is a well-known fact that Compaq's compilers are F better than Sun's compilers.  Why is this?  Perhaps the motivation to H perfect something is not very high if it is being given away?  How many G buyers of Sun stuff are lured (I have known some) by "free compilers",  D only to find out---after having bought the hardware---that they are  sub-par?  H Someone let me know if my posts are getting through; I am still ironing # out bugs in an infovax news access.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 20:45:37 GMTy2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <983i9h$i3d@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  i In article <3AA4AC2F.D859E40E@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:_ >John Vottero wrote:: >> "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message& >> news:3AA38D97.7211FA70@gtech.com... >> > David Mathog wrote:F >> > > cost to obtain OS      1  expensive   10  free           3  low >> >J >> > "Solaris is free" is a bit of a myth. Solaris on x86 are really free.F >> > It is a toy that SUN give away to compete with Linux and Windows.F >> > Whether SUN sell a SPARC system for 5000 USD and give away a freeG >> > Solaris or sell the SPARC system for 3000 USD and sell the SolariscC >> > for 2000 USD does not matter much. The only difference is thatm6 >> > it is not much point in running Linux on SPARC !! >> hH >> Solaris for SPARC is free as long as the system has less than 8 CPUs. >.A >As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations areo >just good marketing.n >eM >>                                                                        YounL >> can buy a brand new SPARC workstation with unlimited user Solaris license1 >> for $995.  I want Compaq to compete with this!) > G >First, as I read various posts here then that price is excl. keyboard,-
 >mouse andD >monitor and with only 128 MB RAM and 1 disk. I think you will be atG >$1500-2000 before you can use it. But $995 sounds great in marketing !6  J There's an academic discount on top of that, and many people have monitorsF laying around.  But yes, most people will probably add things to it to? bring the price up some, just as they would with a PC or DS10. 0   >HF >Second, the system is probably way slower than a DS10 (at least other? >500 MHz UltraSparc II's are way slower than a DS10 in SPEC2000t
 >benchmarks).m  H It's about 1/2 to 2/3 as fast, depending upon the operation.  The cache I memory  is a little small and the PCI slot is only 32 bits.  On the other A hand, it costs <1/3 as much.   Think of it as a Celeron or Duron.    > E >So the system are not competing with DS10's. It is competing against  >cheap Linux x86 boxes.h  F Wrong.  I'm about 90% of the way towards ordering one specifically to G replace my VMS DS10.  The only thing stopping me now is that since the jF thing was only just announced I have not yet been able to confirm thatJ the rock standard PC133 memory it claims to take will really work with anyL 3rd party memory.   Once that's confirmed, I'm ordering one.  (And the extraH 512 Mb of memory should cost <$512, a lot less than it would on a DS10.)  H Speed is not my biggest concern, I've got a bunch of DS10s running LinuxH that I can offload heavy compute jobs onto - including in short time theI one that's currently running VMS.  And that's just the compute bound jobshG where the DS10 would clearly win.  As I've said a zillion times in thisoH group the primary speed limitation in most of our work is moving data toG and from disk, and losing RMS overhead and gaining a working file cacheb2 will more than make up for the lack of CPU oomph.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduo? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech eJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 16:43:11 -0500n9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <sxC0DTC3lFAd@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <taa5akjolch71a@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:v    K > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use it0N > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on eBayJ > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theK > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to legallyn > transfer the license.t  D $300 is not excessive for commercial purposes.  It is less than some flavors of Windows bought new.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 16:47:01 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)g" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <2Qkp2x$24inY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <983gmp$li2$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > 7 > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message-% > news:3AA5358B.6D9934D4@gtech.com...   C >> So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costs:@ >> are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of the= >> SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.s4 >> Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems. >>B >> But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay. > # > The question is, which customers?  > N > At Sun, it appears, at least on the surface, that the high-end customers payJ > for Solaris development, and the low-end customers get a relatively free" > ride to help boost market share. > L > At Compaq, it appears that Alpha customers across the board pay to support  > other segments of the company.  ; Not the hobbyist software customers (most of whom are happyh with a used machine).i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:43:42 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <taati6490oq86e@news.supernews.com>M  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:sxC0DTC3lFAd@eisner.encompasserve.org...-@ > In article <taa5akjolch71a@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: >o >sJ > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use itK > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on  eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theE > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars toe legally  > > transfer the license.o >aF > $300 is not excessive for commercial purposes.  It is less than some  > flavors of Windows bought new.  K It's not a question of $300.   $300 or $3000 isn't going to make or break ayH commercial operation.  The problem is Compaq's/Digital's glacial pace ofI (mis)management.  The whole concept of transferring the O/S license is anaL ancient relic that should have been dumped years ago.  Unfortunately, no oneG at Compaq has the gumption to do anything.  Don't rock the boat!  Scott K McNealy is actively leading Sun.  Bill Gates is actively leading Microsoft.uJ Digital hasn't had any leadership since Ken Olsen was forced out.  I don'tG know when Compaq lost it's leadership (I ignored them until they bought 	 Digital).   # Somebody do something!!  Anything!!s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:07:59 +0000h) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AA589EF.89C229EC@infopuls.com>   Phillip Helbig wrote:: > M > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use itdP > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theM > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to legallys > > transfer the license.c > + > What is the exact fee?  Does anyone know?t > ? > I think the best solution is the following:  Price everything3J > individually: hardware, operating system, layered products, support.  OfF > course, this does not rule out any package deals, special offers etcI > containing one or more of these components.  Back in the days when both-D > hardware and software were much more expensive, the benefits of anE > all-in-one deal probably outweighed the costs, but in these days ofeF > cheap disks etc that is no longer true.  Also, there are INDIVIDUALSD > and small firms running VMS, which was not true 20 years ago.  The > marketplace has changed. > F > Of course, the "cost" for any of the above products does not have toH > reflect the "true cost" if Compaq sees a better way of pricing things.J > This is no different than with other products.  Also, one or more of the2 > costs might be zero, at least for some products. > J > The point is there are many types of users, and if Compaq were to put meI > in charge of pricing, I could come up with a scheme which would benefitSE > EVERYONE---Compaq, "small users" (hobbyists, start-ups, educationaloD > sites) and "large users" with no disadvantage to anyone except the, > competition (what little there really is). >  > --J > Phillip Helbig              Email ........... helbphi@sysdev.exchange.deJ > Deutsche Brse Systems AG   Email ... Phillip.Helbig@Deutsche-Boerse.comJ > Xetra/Eurex Operations      Tel. ...................... +49 69 2101 4921J > 60485 Frankfurt am Main     Fax ....................... +49 69 2101 3411 > G > My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer and, no, I don'tL > have any stock tips for you.   You could probably do that because the pricing scheme of VMS is that inappropriate. But if revenues of Alphas increase because VMS can only be run on these you should have the warranty that this money goes back to VMS engineering.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:12:54 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AA58B16.603429A0@infopuls.com>   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > L > > Of course the customer winds up paying.  OpenVMS development could neverG > > be supported by the revenues from small systems.  I'm sure that theoI > > revenue contribution from small systems is negligible compared to the L > > revenue from mid and large size systems.  That's why they should give itH > > away!  The marketing value is worth much more than the revenue loss! > > Sun understands this.  > G > Agreed.  However, it is a well-known fact that Compaq's compilers are G > better than Sun's compilers.  Why is this?  Perhaps the motivation tosI > perfect something is not very high if it is being given away?  How manyhH > buyers of Sun stuff are lured (I have known some) by "free compilers",E > only to find out---after having bought the hardware---that they are-
 > sub-par? > I > Someone let me know if my posts are getting through; I am still ironing % > out bugs in an infovax news access.   ZI don't think that giving away is something de-motivating if the business plan explicitly says that the SW is important to sell the HW which brings in the revenue. The problem is that SUN (according to Ed Yourdan) hires "only" college grade engineers and fires them after two years when their value has increased and they are for higher salaries.   Open source could be a highly motivating factor for good development. After Solaris beeing open source does anybody know if the tools (compiler, debugger) are open source also?   As long as the SUN SW can only be run on SPARC the money comes back. There is no point in running several copies of Solaris on one SPARC box ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 02:37:17 +0000i) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AA59EDD.9CAF782A@infopuls.com>  3 > From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)h3 > > In article <taa5akjolch71a@news.supernews.com>,n/ > >     "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:rL > >> > Solaris for SPARC is free as long as the system has less than 8 CPUs. > >>E > >> As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations arel > >> just good marketing.e > >> > >fM > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use itoP > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theM > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to legallya > > transfer the license.  > >o > > >     Are there SPARC systems not built by Sun? Is Solaris theE > only commercial OS available for SPARC? If the answer to both thesebI > questions is YES then one could argue that Solaris is in fact "bundled"eF > in the cost of the SPARC system when someone originally purchase it.T > At the very least though it would seem they are giving free "right to new version"I > for Solaris, something you pay Compaq a hefty fee to get for a VMS box.  > D >    Of course even if that were the case ( and I don't know that itE > is ), that would still put them miles ahead of Compaq's "can't movekP > VMS between boxes - must pay us to transfer the box to someone else" attitude. >    There *are* SPARC systems not built by SUN and they are substantially cheaper but the processors have to be bought from SUN and these are tremendous overpriced.   > ArneArne Vajhj wrote: >  > John Vottero wrote:aF > > > As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations are > > > just good marketing. > >>M > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use it>P > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on eBayL > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theM > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to legallye > > transfer the license.u > H > Do you think the software engineers working on Solaris work for free ? >  > No - they get paid by SUN !y > J > Do you think it is the SUN stockholders that pay for Solaris development > ?  > 9 > No - they wanta profit just like any other stockholder.> > + > There are only one to pay: the customer !o > B > So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costs? > are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of ther< > SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.3 > Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems.  > A > But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay.s >  > Arne   > ArneBill Todd wrote: > 7 > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in messagey% > news:3AA5358B.6D9934D4@gtech.com...t > > John Vottero wrote:tH > > > > As I tried to explain, then "free" in bundled configurations are > > > > just good marketing. > > >sL > > > If I buy a SPARC Station on eBay I can download Solaris and legaly use > itM > > > for commercial purposes.  That's my idea of free.  If I buy an Alpha on  > eBayN > > > I have to pay Compaq a lot of maney for an OpenVMS license.  Even if theG > > > Alpha has an OpenVMS license I have to pay hundreds of dollars to 	 > legallyl > > > transfer the license.o > > J > > Do you think the software engineers working on Solaris work for free ? > >n > > No - they get paid by SUN !f > >nL > > Do you think it is the SUN stockholders that pay for Solaris development > > ?g > >h; > > No - they wanta profit just like any other stockholder.t > >o- > > There are only one to pay: the customer !- > >-D > > So if the the Solaris itself is free, then the development costsA > > are covered by something else. Most likely in the pric of theo> > > SPARC systems. Maybe something from the service & support.5 > > Maybe high-end systems subsidarize small systems.e > >uC > > But you can be sure of one thing: in the end the customers pay.e > # > The question is, which customers?m > N > At Sun, it appears, at least on the surface, that the high-end customers payJ > for Solaris development, and the low-end customers get a relatively free" > ride to help boost market share. > L > At Compaq, it appears that Alpha customers across the board pay to support  > other segments of the company. >  > - bill >  > >? > > Arne  SW especially the OS doesn't cost you anything to duplicate. So it is good for SUN to sell more HW and getting the margin/revenue from the HW giving away the OS for free. As more boxes they sell as lower is the share for internal money transfer for compensating the free licences. Increasing the number of customers reduces the amount of money needed for each single customer to contribute to the development. If the money is re-invested in the products (SW and HW) the customer gets in the mid-term a fair return for the money. If OTOH the money is used to support other parts of a large company the product will suffer and will sooner or later look overpriced.t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:34:57 +01004 From: "Peter Ljungberg" <peter.p.ljungberg@telia.se>T Subject: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available for download, Message-ID: <983l8s$3q7$1@news.han.telia.se>   http://www.mimer.com/developer       /P.Lj    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:21:54 GMT>= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Re: My copy of Inform0 Message-ID: <009F89EA.6704EE62@SendSpamHere.ORG>  q In article <PO9p6.3009$5f.776960@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:R {...snip...}K >To be fair to Compaq, Inform is a heck of a lot better today than it was aAJ >year or so ago. The company apparently is putting some resources into theG >publication. It would be nice to see more non-marketing content in the  >periodical, though.  E About a year or so ago is when I started mistaking it for Budgie cagec2 lining.  I guess I'll have to read the next issue.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMu            tO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:13:58 +0100i= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>g Subject: Re: New Sun Blade) Message-ID: <3AA536F6.142501DC@gtech.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:a > In article <980s6d$s@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:lM > > Actually, I am slightly surprised that Sun has not made a big push with abN > > "First 64bit system under $1K" theme.  Personally I think the 64bitness ofO > > machines that cannot access >2Gb of memory is of questionable value, but ifeN > > Sun and Compaq are going to flog it as an advantage for the more expensiveL > > workstation machines (which also cannot access more memory than that) itG > > would seem to be an equally valid sales point for the smaller ones.  > D > David, the purpose of 64-bit addressing on machines that hold lessD > that 4 gigabytes of memory is your favorite occupation -- buildingD > software.  The goal is for a software developer to be able to make> > software that will work seamlessly on a much bigger machine. > E > One disk and 128MB seems quite fine to me for software development.    That is one reason.d  E Another reason is that the 64 bit is virtual address space and memorysF is physical address space. There are actual cases where it makes sense@ to use GB's of virtual address space even though you do not have@ the physical memory. It will only create excessive paging if you actually use all the memory.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:10:11 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bri) Subject: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)kL Message-ID: <OF8084A826.51095C7C-ON03256A07.0068ABEA@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ? Maxtor has that External Storage based on IEEE 1394 connectionsoB and in the FAQ is saying that a Mac (depending on the config.) can  boot by the external storage....  8 Imagine an Alphaserver booting OpenVMS in same way ! ! !   Regards*   FC   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:29:29 +0000 (UTC)  From: mustang@ucc.asn.au.invalid- Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)o* Message-ID: <984kg9$sap$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  A : Maxtor has that External Storage based on IEEE 1394 connectionsnD : and in the FAQ is saying that a Mac (depending on the config.) can" : boot by the external storage....  : : Imagine an Alphaserver booting OpenVMS in same way ! ! !  , Big fscking deal (yeah yeah, I'm a unix guy)1 Why would you want to boot off a firewire device?l5 Maxtor's firewire drive would be an IDE->FW widget inh a cheap external case.1 No-one really wants to be booting their GS-series0! off a single IDE disk in a box...r   What's your point?   D.   -- r! I don't get mad.... I get stabby.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:57:34 -0500@$ From: Norman Woo <nwoo@videotron.ca>A Subject: Porting C-Scape 3.2 or 4.0 to Compaq Alpha OpenVMS 7.1-2@8 Message-ID: <0m8bat4ga7c3ag4gc7aneio5s9ectnfhgj@4ax.com>   Hi folks  B I need some help in porting the C-Scape 3.2 or 4.0 (Screen builderF tool from Liant Corp) from DEC VAX 5.5-2 to Compaq Alpha DS20E OpenVMSE 7.1-2.  Liant no longer supports this product since 1995.  We do havet the source code.  A If any one have successfully got C-Scape 3.2 or 4.0 working under ! OpenVMS 7.1-2, please contact me.s   Thanks in advanceg   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:49:36 GMTn6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <A_C_Bustamante@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: Umbrella in GermanyC Message-ID: <4Qdp6.1293$oz.143322@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>s  I Or in my case sharing the goodies (posters/pens/stuff) with customers andrH potential customers helps take the edge off of the "VMS is dead" rumors.4 There is a Compaq and they help out their resellers.  A Compaq also sent a speaker to my customers' user group last year.s     -- Andy Bustamanteh Remove the ASCII 95s to reply-    8 Stefan Bill <Stefan.Bill@soudronic.com> wrote in message( news:3aa355f1.6253872@news.cis.dfn.de...E > On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:09:27 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r > wrote: >  > > Your CIO/DirectoraF > >(if he survives the shock of seeing VMS promo stuff) will then stopI > >referring to VMS as 'legacy' and immediately authorize buying spankingJ- > >new Alphaservers. Hey, it worked for me :)  > 5 > The order for our new ES40 is just in the pipeline.  >  >a > Stefan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:40:52 -0500o2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: Umbrella in GermanyL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0603012140520001@user-2ive7c4.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <4Qdp6.1293$oz.143322@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Andyp1 Bustamante" <A_C_Bustamante@earthlink.net> wrote:s  K > Or in my case sharing the goodies (posters/pens/stuff) with customers andeJ > potential customers helps take the edge off of the "VMS is dead" rumors.6 > There is a Compaq and they help out their resellers.  G You are allowed to add other people's names to the marketing list; sendyF their contact info to Sue.  If your potential customers won't mind theJ mailings, maybe you should sign them up to get their own goodies.  And youF might as well ask Compaq to send you a few to hand out on a short-termG basis.  I think the mailings are roughly monthly; you might not want toe wait that long.t   -- i Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:31:28 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>@ Subject: Re: Unrecognised Disk3 Message-ID: <3AA54920.4103B65D@applied-synergy.com>f   Andy Proctor wrote:e >  > All, >  > Alphastation 255/300 > Console BIOS V7.0-9w	 > VMS 7.1i > J > I have tried to install a Western Digital 18.3GB HDD (WDE18300-AV0038A4)M > disk into the unit above. It is not even recognised by the BIOS, nada not al > sausage, on any address.C > All other devices recognised OK, and the 2GB DEC disk works fine.l > 2 > Any clues why the disk is not recognised please? > G > Note: The disk is 68 pin, the but is 50 pin. I'm using a 50 to 68 pinP! > converter. Used them before ok.a  G Does your "converter" do high byte termination?  Is the rest of the buse terminated correctly?a  H If you are trying to use a wide device on a narrow bus, you need to makeH sure that both the high and low bytes are terminated at both ends of the
 physical bus.i  H The AS255 SCSI controller terminates one end of the low byte bus.  ThereH is normally a terminator sitting at the end of the internal ribbon cable2 that terminates the other end of the low byte bus.  ? You will have to make sure that the high byte bus is terminatedt
 correctly.  E Also make sure that your drive is configured to an address in the 0-6f range.  G -----------------------------------------------------------------------r$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com t   Fax: 817-237-3074f   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:12:32 GMTe, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.fr>4 Subject: [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners)& Message-ID: <3AA5529C.BFDAA919@gmx.fr>  P I need to have a logical name translated from a child log name table, but when IP ask for its use, VMS complains not to be able to translate it. I have in a proc:  
 $ site = "02"e% $ say "[creating ISLK_''site'_TABLE]"e8 $ create/name_table/nolog/prot=(s:rwed,o:rwed,g:r,w:r) -A           /exec/parent=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY LNM$ISLK_'site'_TABLEi $! $ def = "define"0 $ def/sys/tran=con/table=lnm$islk_'site'_table -K                                     disk$islk_site LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.'site'.]p  $ sh log disk$islk_site /table=*= "DISK$ISLK_SITE" = "LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.02.]" (LNM$ISLK_02_TABLE)   	 but then:e   $ dir DISK$ISLK_SITE:[tmp]B %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$ISLK_SITE:[TMP]*.*;* as inputK -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation   P I don't remember how to tell DCL to go through the descendants tables, as in the DCL command sho log/desc.s   Thanks,D D.  + (I'm really getting old...or it's too late)g   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Mar 2001 16:36:29 -0500v+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 8 Subject: Re: [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners)3 Message-ID: <i5j9PlIxdR7M@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  U In article <3AA5529C.BFDAA919@gmx.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.fr> writes:tR > I need to have a logical name translated from a child log name table, but when IR > ask for its use, VMS complains not to be able to translate it. I have in a proc: >  > $ site = "02"r' > $ say "[creating ISLK_''site'_TABLE]"h: > $ create/name_table/nolog/prot=(s:rwed,o:rwed,g:r,w:r) -C >           /exec/parent=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY LNM$ISLK_'site'_TABLEe > $! > $ def = "define"2 > $ def/sys/tran=con/table=lnm$islk_'site'_table -M >                                     disk$islk_site LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.'site'.]m" > $ sh log disk$islk_site /table=*? > "DISK$ISLK_SITE" = "LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.02.]" (LNM$ISLK_02_TABLE)h >  > but then:w >  > $ dir DISK$ISLK_SITE:[tmp]D > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$ISLK_SITE:[TMP]*.*;* as inputM > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operationn > R > I don't remember how to tell DCL to go through the descendants tables, as in the > DCL command sho log/desc.  >   ? $       define/nolog/table=lnm$process_directory lnm$file_dev - J             lnm$process,lnm$job,lnm$islk_'site'_table,lnm$group,lnm$system    A 	You may want to think about search order.  After a few go roundsS< 	over the years, I found the above order worked best for us.   				Robn   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:42:59 +0100> From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>8 Subject: Re: [Q] search list (level: advanced beginners). Message-ID: <983ld6$114$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>  	 Bonsoir !   K You need to define lnm$file_dev as the search list for your process tables.7# Define it in lnm$process_directory,hI but you can have a look at the definition it has in lnm$system_directory,o as an example.   Cordialement
 Jean-Franois   9 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.fr> wrote in messagen  news:3AA5529C.BFDAA919@gmx.fr...K > I need to have a logical name translated from a child log name table, but  when IL > ask for its use, VMS complains not to be able to translate it. I have in a proc:B >  > $ site = "02" ' > $ say "[creating ISLK_''site'_TABLE]"n: > $ create/name_table/nolog/prot=(s:rwed,o:rwed,g:r,w:r) -C >           /exec/parent=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY LNM$ISLK_'site'_TABLEo > $! > $ def = "define"2 > $ def/sys/tran=con/table=lnm$islk_'site'_table -4 >                                     disk$islk_site LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.'site'.]" > $ sh log disk$islk_site /table=*? > "DISK$ISLK_SITE" = "LOG00:[ISLK_DAT.02.]" (LNM$ISLK_02_TABLE)m >e > but then:u >a > $ dir DISK$ISLK_SITE:[tmp]D > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$ISLK_SITE:[TMP]*.*;* as inputC > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for 	 operation  >rK > I don't remember how to tell DCL to go through the descendants tables, ass in the > DCL command sho log/desc.  >n	 > Thanks,  > D. >e- > (I'm really getting old...or it's too late)m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:12:01 -0500t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)3 Subject: Re: [Q] sys$specific, sys$common and privspL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0603011512020001@user-2iveacb.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3AA525FF.CF3C77C6@gmx.fr>, Didier Morandi  <Didier.Morandi@gmx.fr> wrote:   > I'm getting old... :-( > 
 > ISLKP1>@A.Aw > $ close/nolog log_ch, > $ logfile = "sys$manager:islk$logfile.log"J > $ if f$search(logfile) .eqs. "" then create sys$manager:islk$logfile.log9 > $ open/append/share log_ch sys$manager:islk$logfile.logaL > %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]ISLK$LOGFILE.LOG; as input > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > & > ISLKP1> dir sys$manager:islk$logfile >   > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > P > ISLK$LOGFILE.LOG;1                         117/126     24-FEB-2001 17:17:28.18 > " > Total of 1 file, 117/126 blocks. >  > ISLKP1>set proc/priv=all
 > ISLKP1>@A.A  > $ close/nolog log_ch, > $ logfile = "sys$manager:islk$logfile.log"J > $ if f$search(logfile) .eqs. "" then create sys$manager:islk$logfile.log9 > $ open/append/share log_ch sys$manager:islk$logfile.loge > ../..g > $ close log_ch >  > ???  > D.  0 Guessing, I don't have time to test right now...  G You have read access to the file in sys$sysroot:, but not write access.r  D f$search finds the file, so there is no attempt to create a new one.  I Open/append tries to open for write (append) access.  Since SYS$COMMON iswG a search list, it tries to open the existing file in SYS$SYSROOT.  ThatoG fails, even though the file exists.  So DCL tries the next thing in theiF search list, which is SYS$COMMON.  There's no file there, so you get aF file not found error.  RMS is only showing you the failure of the last4 thing it tried, not each attempt in the search list.  D Try the file spec of the form DISK:[SYSn.SYSMGR]islk$logfile.log.  IJ suspect the open/append will fail without privs, and you will get a better error message.  L Search lists are often NOT what you want to use when you are CREATING files.   -- d Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comS   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:37:42 -0600e/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> 3 Subject: Re: [Q] sys$specific, sys$common and privs 3 Message-ID: <3AA54A96.C403AA92@applied-synergy.com>t   Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > I'm getting old... :-( > 
 > ISLKP1>@A.A  > $ close/nolog log_ch, > $ logfile = "sys$manager:islk$logfile.log"J > $ if f$search(logfile) .eqs. "" then create sys$manager:islk$logfile.log9 > $ open/append/share log_ch sys$manager:islk$logfile.logyL > %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]ISLK$LOGFILE.LOG; as input > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > & > ISLKP1> dir sys$manager:islk$logfile >   > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > P > ISLK$LOGFILE.LOG;1                         117/126     24-FEB-2001 17:17:28.18 > " > Total of 1 file, 117/126 blocks. >  > ISLKP1>set proc/priv=all
 > ISLKP1>@A.A  > $ close/nolog log_ch, > $ logfile = "sys$manager:islk$logfile.log"J > $ if f$search(logfile) .eqs. "" then create sys$manager:islk$logfile.log9 > $ open/append/share log_ch sys$manager:islk$logfile.logo > ../..t > $ close log_ch  G The problem you are having has something to do with SYS$MANAGER being a.H search list.  I have seen this also, but have never bothered to chase it down.i  ? Note that the error message says that it can't open the file iniG SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] and the DIR shows the file in SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR].a  ? When DIR shows SYS$SYSROOT, the file is really in SYS$SPECIFIC.r  D So the error message is (sort of) correct.  There is no such file in SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR].  D When creating files in the SYS$xxx directories, I have found it muchD more reliable to make sure that I use the SYS$SPECIFIC or SYS$COMMON	 logicals.e  G If you change your command file to explicitly use SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSMGR]39 or SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR], I think the problem will go away.p  
 Good luck!  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------->$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com     Fax: 817-237-3074n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.131 ************************