1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 08 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 134       Contents: Re: 3100/4000 Monitor . Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. Anyone using Tibco on VMS? Re: Anyone using Tibco on VMS?( Ask the Wizard:  'WIZ' is not an object!P Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global   logicP Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global logicalL Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a globallogical., Re: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost, Re: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost, RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no costP Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 Call for Participation Pre-Announceme? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot ? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot ? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot ? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot % CPU serial number on AlphaStation 400  CSWS CGI problem& Dallas - OpenVMS Technical Update Days' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later < RE: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napster< RE: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents NapsterG Re: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napster injunction * FREE MUSIC! Get the files Napster censors!, Re: how to determine when file is accessible/ Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN  Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote LDAP Client for OpenVMS ?  Re: LL format RZ29 Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations P Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available for  downloadN Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available fordownload$ Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)$ Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)$ Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire) Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: PROD Utility Failure Re: Removing Ctl-M's Re: Removing Ctl-M's Re: Removing Ctl-M's RWAST question Re: RWAST question Re: telnetsym lowercase  Re: TELNETSYM monitoringI Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search	Engine...) I Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search	Engine...) J Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search Engine ...)I Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search Engine...) ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? 7 Re: What monitor and keyboad will work with dec3000/400 # Re: [Q] checksum$checksum algorithm   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 11:37:14 -0500 3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)  Subject: Re: 3100/4000 Monitor3 Message-ID: <jU2JuE0F99y6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   @ In article <%WFm6.479252$U46.14316930@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,0 "Harold Screven" <hscreven@home.company> writes:F > If this is a topic already dealt  with by the group, I apologize.  IB > am looking for a list of acceptable PC type monitors that can beB > used with a 3100 or 4000.  I suspect the only monitors that will> > work will have to support sync on green and an adapter cableC > will be required.  Anybody that has done this successfully please % > let me know what you used.  Thanks.   3 Please see the OpenVMS FAQ available from a link at  http://www.openvms.compaq.com/   -John  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 06:28:25 CDT = From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell) 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. . Message-ID: <d+erUDnNVxRV@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  p In article <009F8A8A.E9256DAB@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:Z > In article <slrn9acpdk.bhd.idr@ax9.hep.ucl.ac.uk>, idr@hep.ucl.ac.uk (Ivan Reid) writes:A >>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:47:22 GMT, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- K >> <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in <009F89C4.0D4F4BA4@SendSpamHere.ORG>:  >>G >>>I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, I G >>>will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site. I >>>The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?  >>D >>	The one that no-one uses?  With  ` and | on it...  (OK, LaTeXers) >>use the ` key, but not many others do.)  >> >>--  P >>Ivan Reid, Physics & Astronomy, University College London.   idr@hep.ucl.ac.uk> >>	KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty". > L > The [`] key has the [~] as it's shifted function.  I use this when surfingL > the web for many personal URLs.  The [|] is a useful character for PIPEingM > commands.  So, I can't agree that any of these keys are "no-one uses" keys.     6 Also, if you are programming in c, '~' is an operator.   --  O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== O Dean Wormer to Flounder: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:00:48 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. ) Message-ID: <3AA78280.407ED70C@bbc.co.uk>    WILLIAM WEBB wrote:   C > Some of my keyboards have a key that has a flying bent four-paned < > window graphic on it instead of an alphanumeric character. > = > I *never* use that one, and have always assumed that it's a  > Blue Screen of Death Key.  >  >   J No, but if your cat accidentally presses the Windows key, the  U key, then return" your system will shut itself down.   > WWWebb    -- 6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:49:02 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 0 Message-ID: <009F8B45.D9CCD9C1@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <d+erUDnNVxRV@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell) writes:q >In article <009F8A8A.E9256DAB@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: [ >> In article <slrn9acpdk.bhd.idr@ax9.hep.ucl.ac.uk>, idr@hep.ucl.ac.uk (Ivan Reid) writes: B >>>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:47:22 GMT, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-L >>> <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in <009F89C4.0D4F4BA4@SendSpamHere.ORG>: >>> H >>>>I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, IH >>>>will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.J >>>>The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}? >>> E >>>	The one that no-one uses?  With  ` and | on it...  (OK, LaTeXers * >>>use the ` key, but not many others do.) >>>  >>>-- Q >>>Ivan Reid, Physics & Astronomy, University College London.   idr@hep.ucl.ac.uk ? >>>	KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".  >>  M >> The [`] key has the [~] as it's shifted function.  I use this when surfing M >> the web for many personal URLs.  The [|] is a useful character for PIPEing N >> commands.  So, I can't agree that any of these keys are "no-one uses" keys. >  > 7 >Also, if you are programming in c, '~' is an operator.    Thanks for the "complement". :)    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 08:50:30 -0600& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. , Message-ID: <m3k8605n7t.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  , On 12 Adar 5761, Brian Schenkenberger wrote:   >>> >Do you have a Mac?  >>>  >>> No. Why? >>3 >>The KB power key seems a perfect place for 'ANY'.  > C > A Mac has a keyboard key for power?  How stupid.  My cat would be 0 > turning the machine on and off all night long.  C And indeed, my cats do that (or did, until we disabled them).  (The  keys, not the cats.)  E Not sure how easy it would be to fix it on their new cube; it's not a A mechanical switch at all anymore, and it's on top of the machine.  Hmmm...  --  " Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily *** 5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***  -- 13th of Adar, 5761 --I "I heard if you play the NT-4.0-CD backwards, you get a satanic message." = "That's nothing, if you play it forward, it installs NT-4.0."   H  -- "Kilian A. Foth" <foth@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>, on gnu.emacs.help   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 08:54:31 -0600& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. , Message-ID: <m3g0go5n14.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  ' On 12 Adar 5761, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:   D >> A Mac has a keyboard key for power?  How stupid.  My cat would be1 >> turning the machine on and off all night long.  > B > I presume it is like the NeXT key, or the one on my PC: once theF > system is running, it is disabled or pops up a little menu that asks# > whether you want to shut it down.   B Worse - these days it pops up a modal dialog box with buttons (forG sleep, shutdown, reboot, cancel).  Many things stop when a modal dialog  box is on the screen.   @ I believe there are third-party hacks to work around it now.  (I@ switched all my systems that still run Mac OS to third-party USB& keyboards that don't have power keys.) --  " Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily *** 5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***  -- 13th of Adar, 5761 --I The one good thing about repeating your mistakes is that you know when to  cringe.    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 00:43:34 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. - Message-ID: <87elw8rz2h.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:   F > No, but if your cat accidentally presses the Windows key, the U key,0 > then return your system will shut itself down.  " How much do you want for the cat?!   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:26:55 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. D Message-ID: <OFFD6000D8.10C61535-ON88256A09.0065579E@foundation.com>  , On 12 Adar 5761, Brian Schenkenberger wrote:   >>> >Do you have a Mac?  >>>  >>> No. Why? >>3 >>The KB power key seems a perfect place for 'ANY'.  > C > A Mac has a keyboard key for power?  How stupid.  My cat would be 0 > turning the machine on and off all night long.  G That's easily fixed. Shoot the cat. (I hate cats with a passion you can  only dream of.)    Shane    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:32:08 -05000 From: "Jeff Morgan" <vmswiz@geonospamcities.com># Subject: Anyone using Tibco on VMS? O Message-ID: <C6F9FE884064BA81.D16B0995F708EEA0.F84F2C767CDAD3E9@lp.airnews.net>   K We are getting ready to start a project that uses Tibco as a "business bus" G to pass data between Commerce 2000, VMS, NT, Oracle, Unix, XML and EDI.  (Whew!)   J Tibco is an EAI enterprise architecture integration tool like MQseries and BEA.  1 Anyone have experience with this software on VMS?    Thanks!   '                             Jeff Morgan /                             Coats North America )                             www.coats.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:11:50 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com ' Subject: Re: Anyone using Tibco on VMS? D Message-ID: <OF7653AF5D.2B585D76-ON88256A09.00634228@foundation.com>  & Caution, personal opinion approaching.  H We're in the beginnings of using Tibco for something. Our experiences soI far suggest that the network communications side does what it says on the J tin, but the pretty stuff isn't so hot. Even the TIBCO instructor admittedJ that Message Broker is too slow for extensive use, and it seems to be kindI of buggy - trash its own datastore buggy. The Integration Manager is very I hard to debug, and we keep having to extend it with customized bits to do J what we expected to be simple tasks. We're still working with it, and it'sA possible when we have more experience things will look better. My I impression so far though, is that the back end's solid, but the front end  isn't ready for prime time yet.    Shane           B Jeff Morgan <vmswiz@geonospamcities.com> on 03/08/2001 06:32:08 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   $ Subject:  Anyone using Tibco on VMS?    K We are getting ready to start a project that uses Tibco as a "business bus" G to pass data between Commerce 2000, VMS, NT, Oracle, Unix, XML and EDI.  (Whew!)   J Tibco is an EAI enterprise architecture integration tool like MQseries and BEA.  1 Anyone have experience with this software on VMS?    Thanks!   '                             Jeff Morgan /                             Coats North America )                             www.coats.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:54:27 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) 1 Subject: Ask the Wizard:  'WIZ' is not an object! / Message-ID: <tafapj62apued8@news.supernews.com>    Hi,   K The Wizard will not talk to me.  When I asked it for "7.3 release date", i  , got a dialog box with these sentences on it:  6 "A Runtime Error has occurred.  Do you wish to Debug?"	 "Line 67"  "Error: 'WIZ' is not an object  K My workstation is Win2K, Microsloth Internet Explorer 5.00.3103.1000 (sp1) t 128 bit encryption.i  = Is the Wizard stupid, or do I need different client software?q   ws   -- M1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>    Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **o   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 17:17:30 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Y Subject: Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global   logiclH Message-ID: <y4zoew6xr9.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ) You made yourself a recursive definition!i  M This problem isn't quite so easy to solve. You basically need a small commandgK procedure using all the parameters of F$TRNLNM to take the original logical M name to pieces and then put it together again with the new equivalence string 9 added. Writing it is left as an exercise to the reader...    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:45:15 -0500n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global logical L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0803011145150001@user-2iveaj3.dialup.mindspring.com>  ; In article <3AA7AB5C.B2EE0A6A@jpmorgan.com>, Andrew G Scotto$ <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> wrote:  E > I want to extend the value of a logical, which is set up in a groups4 > login.com file, by referring to the logical again. > # > In Unix I would do this like his:a > ' > PATH=/home/my_home/an_extra_dir:$PATHo > # > How do I achieve the same in VMS?s > J > I HAVE achieved it but the outcome is not what I expected or understand. > The line in my login.com is: > " > $ define/nolog          mosource/ > MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],- 2 >                                         MOSOURCE  n     Look at HELP LEXICAL F$TRNLNM.  * I think you want to do something like this  " $ define/nolog          mosource -0    MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],-    f$trnlnm("mosource")e    ? DCL without lexical functions is like a day without sunshine...t   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comZ   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:55:08 +0000r2 From: Andrew G Scott <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com>U Subject: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a globallogical.r, Message-ID: <3AA7AB5C.B2EE0A6A@jpmorgan.com>  C I want to extend the value of a logical, which is set up in a groupi2 login.com file, by referring to the logical again.  ! In Unix I would do this like his:   % PATH=/home/my_home/an_extra_dir:$PATHw  ! How do I achieve the same in VMS?n  H I HAVE achieved it but the outcome is not what I expected or understand. The line in my login.com is:    $ define/nolog          mosource- MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],-s0                                         MOSOURCE    D But "sho log mosource" gives: (Note that AN_EXTRA_DIR doesn't appearH because I just added it to the above command for illustrative purposes.)      D    "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 1  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 2  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 3  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 4  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 5  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 6  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 7  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 8  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"D 9  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)         = "MOSOURCE"G 9  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072) *         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 8  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)v*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 7  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072) *         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 6  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)Q*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 5  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)a*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 4  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)-*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 3  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)r*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 2  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072) *         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G 1  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)o*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"G    "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)a*         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"  D It would appear to have sort of worked but what are all the repeated' lines for? It doesn't look right to me.o   Regards  Andrew Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:24:37 +0000D  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com5 Subject: Re: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost H Message-ID: <OF52D34217.A58DFACD-ON80256A09.004EF569@qedi.quintiles.com>  H I'd say the opposite to Fred.  I think it is likely to have an impact onG the MTBF of the fan, REDUCING rather than increasing it.  If the fan isk: working harder then it's more likely to fail more quickly.G This does, of course, depend upon how the fan speed is controlled......    Fred Kleinsorge commented:H >>>I would doubt that it would have an appreciable impact on the systems MTBF.<<<   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:55:31 GMTy+ From: rjordan@mars.mcs.net (Richard Jordan)>5 Subject: Re: better cooling for the XP1000 at no coste4 Message-ID: <TXNp6.1370$9o5.128392@news.goodnet.com>  H As a side note, one of the more popular mods to the UDB (Multia) with anE Alpha processor is to cut one of the wires leading to the thermistor,LG which makes the fan run at full speed constantly.  The fans life may behI reduced, but given the proclivity of those boxes to smoke a certain chip IF on the bottom of the logic board, doing this mod and using the uprightH stand doubtles increases the UDB's useful life expectancy at the expense of noticeable noise increase.s  F I haven't noticed any problems with cooling on my PWS600au yet, thoughE with two longhair dogs in the house, frequent cleaning is on the list= of things to do.   Rich Jordant rjordan@mcs.net(   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:26:33 -0600m* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>5 Subject: RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost=- Message-ID: <0033000018170792000002L022*@MHS>=  8 =0AI ordered one of the 1" deep fans from McMaster-Carr.  7 Easy to replace but you should be careful where you cut-7 the wires going to the mainboard and also have a couple08 of small (24-26AWG) butt splice connectors to attach the: wires coming from the fan to the stub of the old fan wires) that have the connector attached to them.   6 I'd say that it really cooks, but it doesn't any more.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETc) > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:58 AMe8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET7 > Subject: RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no costW >o >k9 > As a side note, one of the more popular mods to the UDBd > (Multia) with anH > Alpha processor is to cut one of the wires leading to the thermistor,=  = > which makes the fan run at full speed constantly.  The fansu
 > life may bew= > reduced, but given the proclivity of those boxes to smoke ai > certain chipH > on the bottom of the logic board, doing this mod and using the uprigh= th> > stand doubtles increases the UDB's useful life expectancy at
 > the expensee > of noticeable noise increase.a >wH > I haven't noticed any problems with cooling on my PWS600au yet, thoug= h.H > with two longhair dogs in the house, frequent cleaning is on the list=   > of things to do. >y
 > Rich Jordane > rjordan@mcs.net9 >=   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:15:39 -05003 From: "CETS Information" <Information@CETS2001.com>dY Subject: Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 Call for Participation Pre-Announceme22 Message-ID: <987t6g$u8m$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>  - Call For Participation (CFP) Pre-Announcementp6 Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 (CETS-2001)   Anaheim California# Technical Symposium: September 9-14 & Pre-Conference Seminars: September 8-9  F The CETS-2001 CFP system will go live the first week in April. SessionL proposals submitted by May 1, 2001 are the CFP submissions most likely to beL considered for scheduling. If you are interested in speaking at CETS-2001 it* is best to submit your session by May 1st.    % Q: Who is the audience for CETS-2001?   L A: The attendees at CETS-2001 are knowledgeable IT professionals who design,F implement, and maintain multi-system or complex computing environmentsI starting at the workgroup level on up to the corporate data center level.m    : Q: What is the level of the sessions offered at CETS-2001?  H A: The sessions offered are in the range of intermediate to the advancedH level. Introductory sessions tend not to be offered. Novice sessions forF experienced IT professionals are offered but these sessions assume theI attendee is experienced in other technologies and the new material can be ! covered at an intermediate level.a    7 Q: What type of session is most likely to be scheduled?l  E A: Any session that is focused on the actual implementation of CompaqgL related technology is very likely to be scheduled. Sessions that are focused& on "how we did it" are highly desired.    9 Q: Does this include sessions using 3rd party technology?f  L A: Yes as long as the session is focused on technology related to the Compaq style of computing.a    / Q: Does this include 3rd party vendor sessions?t  H A: 3rd party vendor sessions are closely monitored. It is unlikely a 3rdH vendor session focused on "features and functions" or "speeds and feeds"L will be scheduled. Compaq also is almost completely prohibited from offeringI these types of sessions. For a 3rd party session to be considered it mostsH likely would have to focus on "how we did it" using Compaq complementaryL technology in a real world customer implementation, preferably involving the customer as a speaker.    ! Q: What about marketing sessions?   H A: CETS-2001 has an educational program that is designed for a technicalK conference and not a tradeshow. The focus of almost all sessions, including-G Compaq's, is "how" to apply technology in order to speed the attendees'eL implementation of IT projects. This includes "how to" use a given technologyF and "how we did it" with a given technology sessions. Speeds and feedsB marketing sessions are limited to a few general overview sessions.    ' Q: What about weekend Seminar sessions?i    A: Details will be posted later.    = Q: Will there be a public announcement of the CFP going live?    A: Yes it will be posted here.     Q: What should I do now?  J A: Begin designing your session. When the CFP system goes live you will beD required to submit an abstract for the session. That will included aC write-up describing the session. Begin designing your abstract now.     1 Q: Do the speakers receive anything for speaking?o  D A: The conference registration fee of $1,395 is waived for speakers.    4 Q: Where do I find more information about CETS-2001?  I A: The web site for CETS-2001 is www.CETS2001.com. Information will begine appearing in April.o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:02:01 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>oH Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot8 Message-ID: <988adq$27p$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  L Good points.  After the VMS edu program was introduced late last year, a fewK here mentioned how useless/restrictive it was.  Rich knows this.  Let's seei if things get changed or not.c  J Another thing I'll add.  We're getting a summer intern in a few months.  IL got a 2" high stack of resumes, perhaps 100 or so.  Only 1 mentioned VMS andL it was from a previous summer experience.  None had it listed in coursework, etc.  + If VMS is to survive, this MUST change IMO.    Dave...n  . "Koloth" <koloth@tmisnet.com> wrote in message% news:3AA70034.717B318C@tmisnet.com...lH > If only the OpenVMS group would give educational institutions a useful/ > licensing program then this would be fixed int > the long haul. >jL > If I was Rich Marcello I would allow education free license to OpenVMS and > it's layered products. >fL > I would due this not only for teaching but also for research efforts.  The< > computers have to be located on the institutions property. >pG > I would also work with the universities to incorporate OpenVMS systems, > management training into their curriculum. >n > Cass Witkowski >n > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o >t; > > "Tony Scandora" <scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in message ) > > news:986gdo$s3l$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov...-2 > > > It's probably not VMS, but it's interesting: > > >nJ > > > http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO58384,00.html > > >C7 > > > Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541e > > > scandora@cmt.anl.gov > > >  > > G > > Alas, the daze of VMS and HPTC seem to be over. That said, the APACe systemL > > will be a Tru64 UNIX-based AlphaServer SC cluster. About 120 ES40s whichJ > > will become ES45 Privateers in September or October. The configuration isJ > > somewhat similar to Don Dossa's AlphaServer SC (serial #1) at Lawrence > > Livermore National Lab.  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:19:10 +0200 (MET)-1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>1H Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot3 Message-ID: <01K0YN1BGVRM9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>2  J > Good points.  After the VMS edu program was introduced late last year, aG > few here mentioned how useless/restrictive it was.  Rich knows this. a* > Let's see if things get changed or not.   H Rich has known it for a long time.  Despite pleading, there has been NO  RESPONSE from the Q....t  J > Another thing I'll add.  We're getting a summer intern in a few months. H > I got a 2" high stack of resumes, perhaps 100 or so.  Only 1 mentionedJ > VMS and it was from a previous summer experience.  None had it listed in > coursework, etc. t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:49:24 -0500h2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)H Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the bootL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0803011149250001@user-2iveaj3.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <988adq$27p$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz"" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote:    L > Another thing I'll add.  We're getting a summer intern in a few months.  IN > got a 2" high stack of resumes, perhaps 100 or so.  Only 1 mentioned VMS andN > it was from a previous summer experience.  None had it listed in coursework, > etc.   G Well, a year from now, someone will be getting one more resume with VMS C listed on it, right?  Do you duty.  Broaden someone's horizons this  summer.t   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 00:32:25 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>H Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot- Message-ID: <87itlkrzl2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   # Koloth <koloth@tmisnet.com> writes:   @ > I would also work with the universities to incorporate OpenVMS3 > system management training into their curriculum.y  
 Been there..."  D To do it WELL, you need one machine per person. They HAVE to be ableE to screw up, without crippelling some one else. Plus, you also need anD number of larger machines and HSx controllers. Now even if the toothF Fairy left every thing under the door mat, there is that little matter	 of SPACE.   E There is only one way that I can see in most places. The machine have F to be multi-use. Labs can be dedicated to a specific class, or classesF with ease if it exists. I think you all know how many uni student labsF with 20-40 Alphas in them there are... And no, the dept managers often& don't understand why a P166 is no use!  @ So what is needed, is a sub $1K Alpha ( and falling ), VMS, FullE networking, clustering, HSM, RDB,... and ALL the fruit SW wise. AfteriD all, what is the point of adding EDT or TPU to vi? You NEED to teachA at least a smattering of critical HD apps, or it's just a anothere nerdy basket weaving unit.   Much more important is:t  $ 1 A stats package like SPSS for Wxx. 2 A *good* web browser. ; 3 Decent mailer and News reader. No, don't use the browser.-B 4 Emacs/AucTeX/TeX/LaTeX and a biblio interface to the unis biblio    lookup system.r; 4 A WP for the brain dead. ( Unis seem to be full of them )n 5 Mathlab/Mathmatica.n  B That is a MINIMUM for a student lab machine. Add a varying load ofC stuff for dept wants and likes, but that is second level. The above0E should cover 99% of general stuff. Get them in, and you have a chance:6 of grabbing a lab and a few larger boxen for teaching.   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda./@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 17:38:55 GMTm( From: vogt@alice.obspm.fr (Etienne Vogt). Subject: CPU serial number on AlphaStation 4009 Message-ID: <slrn9afgtf.r7s.vogt@ophelia.astro.gla.ac.uk>n   Hello,  >  Does anyone know where the CPU serial number is located on an5 AlphaStation 400 (Yes, it's for a hobbyist license) ?EA  Should I look at the back of the tower, on the CPU board itself, 4 or is there a console command that will display it ?   Many thanks in advance,t   -- g 	Etienne Vogt.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:38:18 +010012 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: CSWS CGI problems; Message-ID: <3aa7b57a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>o   Hi,c   I'm at my wits end.A  J The environment: VMS/Alpha 7.2-1H1, TCPware 5.4-3 plus all available ECOs,D CSWS 1.0-1 (mainly the default configuration - at least the /cgi-bin config is default).   H When I try to start the provided TEST-CGI-VMS.COM (or any other .COM CGI8 script), I always get a 500 response. The error log says  B   <timestamp> [<pid>] GENERIC_SOCKETPAIR_inet: SYS$ASSIGN() - 2312  + followed by "couldn't spawn child process"._   Anyone seen this?N   cu,D   Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deaJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:25:46 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>/ Subject: Dallas - OpenVMS Technical Update Days)5 Message-ID: <ELLp6.6$S91.350@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>1   Dear Newsgroup  J Technical Update Days for Dallas has now opened registration, please visit http://www.dfwcug.org/   Please then click on DFW Days   $ Please note that seating is limited.  
 Warm Regards,S   Sue)   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 15:11:24 GMTO1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)"0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |>   |> UF |> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compiling@ |> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler |> construction   A Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  AnR opinion I don't share.    @ |>              than the alternative in this case C which is notD |> only unsuitable for comiler construction but also for almost all  |> other tasks.O  ) Also your opinion and one I do not share.1   |> RB |> If you once have a running Ada compiler the chicken-egg-problemD |> is solved. This stage has obviously long reached and the decisionI |> to (re-)write the Ada front-end in Ada can only be highly appreciated.   H Except that in the past it was possible to port GNAT to any machine thatJ had even a rudimentary K&R C compiler.  That covered a rather large subsetM of the computing industry.  Requiring something as obscure as an Ada compilerEI in order to build the Ada compiler has made it virtually impossible to doSH private ports to new systems.  I believe this was the intent of ACT and ; would seem to be very contrary to the ideal behind the GPL.R   bill   -- "J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:39:56 -050042 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0803011139570001@user-2iveaj3.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:    J > Except that in the past it was possible to port GNAT to any machine thatL > had even a rudimentary K&R C compiler.  That covered a rather large subsetO > of the computing industry.  Requiring something as obscure as an Ada compilerwK > in order to build the Ada compiler has made it virtually impossible to do J > private ports to new systems.  I believe this was the intent of ACT and = > would seem to be very contrary to the ideal behind the GPL.  >   D Robert Dewar could give an authoritative answer to this, but I don'tJ believe they ever implemented their whole compiler in C.  I think it was aH small, bootstrapping subset of Ada implemented in C.  That was enough to5 allow the remaining implementation to be done in Ada.a  > I think a sensible person porting GNAT to a new platform wouldJ cross-compile.  Compile to intermediate form on the existing platform (forE example the point where the GCC back-end takes over), and do the codeu@ generation on the new platform, using whatever native backend isH available.  That doesn't sound vitrually impossible to me, and I believeG it has been done with GNAT several times.  Some work may be required to=J extract the appropriate intermediate form into appropriate files, transferJ the files to the target system, and load the info into the back-end's data structures.p   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:51:10 -0600e* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napstern- Message-ID: <0033000018149402000002L022*@MHS>s   =0AGood point.  4 I guess I was laughing too hard to think it through.  B Another thing about this situation is that there are enough peopleB participating in the exchange of MP3s to provide a sufficient base/ for an Internet micropayment system to survive.r  A And that would be a revolutionary change indeed, with significantc ramifications.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET * > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 11:18 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETH > Subject: RE: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napster=   >i >r: > Webb, William W <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messageH > news:D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB75001925A1A@rlghncst625.usps.gov...=   > >m, > > Apologies to the group for posting this. > >cA > > I just thought that this is a shining example of the computeri; > > illiteracy of our judicial system, not to mention being  > > *quite* humorous:n >aC > It is indeed humorous, but not necessarily an example of computeru? > illiteracy.  The courts have to (or at least should, and this  > ruling seems? > to) walk a fine line with respect to Napster:  Napster itself.
 > is arguably-: > doing nothing illegal by facilitating music interchange, > since some music iso= > free of copyright issues, and there's lots of precedent fore > the legality ofm> > providing a service that can be used for legitimate purposes > even if it can% > also be used for illegitimate ones.n >F= > This ruling says that Napster is responsible for *reacting*1
 > to provable = > complaints of abuse, not for policing before-the-fact.  Ando
 > it says ther8 > complainants have the onus of specifying the offending > material (after whichS8 > Napster is responsible for screening it out, by name). > Regardless of howt= > one may feel about what's going on, it seems like a legallyi > fair solution - C > and while it means the complainants have to keep busy looking foreE > infractions, they've certainly got the means (and motive) to do so.p >e7 > Eventually, the complainants will likely realize thatm > Internet music is = > something they need to find a way to live with, rather thano > fight against.6 > I've only used Napster to obtain fairly obscure jazz > recordings from thee? > '30s and '40s, and while some of them are likely available ind
 > collectionsu> > many were recorded in multiple variations, and Napster gives > me the abilityH > to find the exact performance I'm interested in.  But downloading is = ao: > *real* pain (and the 48 kbaud my 'phone line supports is > usually not thel< > bottleneck):  I'd happily pay, say, $0.25 per cut to get a > clean copy from at< > fast server rather than take my chances with somebody's PC > and 'phone line,5 > since the average download time is 10 - 15 minutes." > ? > And the thought that it gives jazz buffs (or other buffs, for  > that matter)7 > in places like Russia a chance to obtain works they'do > otherwise have notH > access to whatsoever is kind of neat, though I've got to admit to som= e : > qualms about the IP issue.  The bottom line is that when > people attempt toa> > restrict information flow to maximixe profit, the flow, like
 > any liquid, = > tends to find a way around the restrictions:  going with itf > usually workss9 > better, but it's a hard habit to change when technologye > changes the oldw > rules. >f > - bill >w > > ? > > (Note:  "Pig Latin" is a verbal "encryption scheme" used bye
 > children inn > ther > > US8 > >  which involves removing the first letter of a word, > appending the suffix	 > > "-ay"s= > >  to the first letter, and placing this combination at ther > end of the word./ > >  ex: "Pig Latin" becomes "Ig-pay Atin-Lay")- > >p > > A > > Aimster says Pig Latin code can circumvent Napster injunctionl! > > Reuters, 03.06.01, 7:16 PM ETl > >" > >o4 > > NEW YORK, March 6 (Reuters) - Programmers at the > file-sharing firm Aimstere? > > said on Tuesday they had found a disarmingly simple way forr > Napster users  > to9 > > avoid recent restrictions imposed on the service by ap > federal judge: anW) > > encryption scheme based on Pig Latin.F > >n > >e5 > > Aimster, whose software lets users trade files byd > piggybacking on instantg; > > message networks, released the free Aimster Pig Encoder  > program Sunday on > > > its Web site www dot aimster dot com/pigencoder dotphtml). > >h > >s: > > Under the terms of the injunction against Napster, the > company must removeo< > > songs within three days of receiving notice by copyright > holders. It's the.; > > file name, not the file itself, that is screened: Early  > reports suggestedE? > > that copyrighted songs with slight misspellings in the filen > names were > > undisturbed. > >- > > Rest of article at:2 > >0A > > www dot forbes dot com/newswire/2001/03/06/rtr198615 dot htmlu > >:J > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Df > >.- > > William W. Webb, EDS, c/o USPS CMF/OSS/MS 2 > > 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616 919 874 3043 > >n >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:12:58 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) E Subject: RE: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napster / Message-ID: <taffcqjok4l842@news.supernews.com>V  I WWEBB1@email.usps.gov (WILLIAM WEBB) wrote in <0033000018149402000002L022s *@MHS>:t   >  >Good point. >i5 >I guess I was laughing too hard to think it through.o >tC >Another thing about this situation is that there are enough people C >participating in the exchange of MP3s to provide a sufficient basef0 >for an Internet micropayment system to survive. > B >And that would be a revolutionary change indeed, with significant >ramifications.o >e  -- snip --t  + Is it time for DEQ to bring back Millicent?t   ws   ------------------------------   Date: 8 MAR 2001 15:42:13 GMTt+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>pP Subject: Re: Encryption scheme based on Pig Latin circumvents Napster injunction1 Message-ID: <8MAR01.15421341@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>W  ( "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote: >    [snip]L >                             The bottom line is that when people attempt toJ > restrict information flow to maximixe profit, the flow, like any liquid,K > tends to find a way around the restrictions:  going with it usually works I > better, but it's a hard habit to change when technology changes the oldn > rules.  H Hmmm - somehow this sounds very familiar.  Try substituting "Compaq/DEC"A for "people" and "overprice VMS" for "restrict information flow".v   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVoH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:43:23 GMT- From: vskjps@aol.com3 Subject: FREE MUSIC! Get the files Napster censors!-4 Message-ID: <vMNp6.19764$m8.181952@news.direcpc.com>  4 You can STILL get the files Napster censors-FREE!  
/ Everything you want is available RIGHT NOW at 
@" #MP3_DEPOT on IRC; the server is 
 
  irc.action-irc.net.  
 
a3 Action_IRC is a small network, owned and operated 
h1 By the users.  We are a friendly bunch - but we 
 6 unquestionably have the largest music library on the 
1 Internet.  We have 10 servers worldwide and 300 
a5 channels.  Our selection is absolutely incredible.  
 7 Of course we have all the modern pop, rock, and rap.  
 8 But then we also have jazz, blues, bluegrass, country, 
8 classical, 50's, and anything else you are looking for.
 
e7 Everything you need and want, in one convenient place 
-5 and, as a bonus, REAL NICE PPL!  Friendly chat, and 
1: OPS who are actually users, not pricks.  You have a real 
7 opportunity to pitch in and help your fellow internet 
a1 junkies, and maybe earn OP or even IRCOP status.
3 
16 If you are new to IRC, you are in for a real treat.  
- There are none of the hassles you have with 
,4 Napster.  You don't get half a file then never see 
5 the user again.  And, unlike Napster, we don't have 
n4 a million users, each with the same 3 files!  Just 
0 download a database list, select your file and 
, download.  You can choose from over 50 MP3 
. databases.  Our MP3 databases range from 100 
5 gigabytes to a terabyte - that's right, a Terrabyte 
  of MP3's in ONE PLACE!  
  
 4 Need speed?  Well, most of our databases are cable 
7 or T-1.  The servers are all megaspeed - all are on a 
n3 fiber channel. You won't be disappointed.  And we 
M0 have servers in the U.S., Canada, Europe, even 
7 Australia.  Wherever you are, there is a server close 
n enough to give you top speed! 
t 
e8 But music is not all we have.  Action_IRC also has the 
8 largest binary library on the net.  Want movies?  Then 
5 visit #Movietime or #Movieland for them.  Is videos 
n. your thing?  Then you will want to check out 
6 #Musicvideos.  And don't forget to stop by #Warez4u, 
& #Hotwarez, #Crackhouse, or #Gametime.
 
c4 So stop by and see us.  We will be waiting for you!
 
o" IF YOU HAVE NEVER USED IRC BEFORE
" ---------------------------------
 
e2 If you have never used IRC before, IRC is really 
8 easy to use.  Any of the following links will directly 
% download MIRC, the program you need:
  
t* http://www.kissland.com/mirc/mirc582t.exe
+ http://www.carbosoft.com/mirc/mirc582t.exe
h+ ftp://mirc.entic.net/pub/mIRC/mirc582t.exe
i1 http://mirc.mcclimans.com/downloads/mirc582t.exe
p 
a1 NOTE TO TECHIES: ONLY use MIRC, 5.71 or above.  
!2 That's because you will need to load SpR, a MIRC 
8 script to access the databases.  It works only on MIRC 
 5.71 or higher.
  
) Install MIRC, then look for this server:
E 
o Action-IRC
Y  
: If you can't find it, or are using an earlier version of 
6 MIRC (or another client) then either add this server:
 
r irc.action-irc.net
  
t or just type 
 
S /join irc.action-irc.net
b 
s7 When you connect to irc.action-irc.net, a window will 
b0 pop up with lots of channels.  Select them all 
 and delete them.  
i  
 Then add this channel
  
     #MP3_Depot
a  
- You need the #.  Join that channel.  If you 
h- can't figure out how to add a channel, once 
 + you have logged into a server and get the 
t, welcome message, close the menu box and at 
' the bottom of the page just type this:
f  
 /join #MP3_Depot
   
) No space or other character before the /
g  
0 That will bring you to our channel  From there 
1 just ask any question you have and someone will 
5 answer it.
   E qvxjfkwuzpqreikzrkmijqeimgstbhqsbrfbjddbjkskgczngkksnbjhuumzrzpuyhnwi    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 12:55:49 -0500.3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)15 Subject: Re: how to determine when file is accessible)3 Message-ID: <ks3htZYxxNnr@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  3 In article <90586F6B3bdorengneiss@207.126.101.100>, % gneiss@mailroom.company (Bob) writes:  > Hello all: > G > I was wondering what is the standard VMS way to determine that a file 4 > is accessible, and not busy due to writing by FTP.  F Modify the FTP script to send the file with a temporary name, and thenC have the FTP script rename the file after the put or get completes.-  G That way when the target file name shows up you will know that you havehF a complete file, and not one that has been only partially transferred.  B As the rename operation is usually quite fast, you should not have, much opportunity for a file access conflict.   -John. wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion ONly.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:45:27 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>G8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN, Message-ID: <3AA746A7.83DD9F3E@infopuls.com>   John Reagan wrote: >  > Paul Dias wrote: > >  > > Hi,o > >dQ > > Can anyone describe how OpenVMS Pascal would arrange the following in memory:n > >t$ > > PACKED ARRAY [1..659] OF BOOLEAN > I > Appendix A in the Compaq Pascal Reference Manual gives the real detailse( > for how the compiler allocates things. > I > That OpenVMS manual is to let you map the "standard" type names used in H > the OpenVMS manuals to Pascal syntax.  It isn't meant to be the Pascal > reference. > C > Table A-5 in Section A.2.5 (Storage Allocation of Types) says forDF > Boolean that is packed size in bits is 1.  For PACKED ARRAYs it saysI > that the size is the sum of the packed sizes in bits of all components,sF > plus the sum of sizes in bits of any holes created to meet alignmentG > requirements; if the sum is greater than 32, the sum is rounded up toa > the next multiple of 8.- > B > So as Arne said the size of that PACKED ARRAY would be 83 bytes. > G > You can get the compiler to tell you this information either with theeJ > SIZE and BITSIZE builtins and with the /SHOW=STRUCTURE_LAYOUT portion of > the listing file.u >  > --
 > John Reagan  > Compaq Pascal Project Leader   Pascal is one of the best languages and one of the best designed languages and the modularised version of DEC/Compaq Pascal was even better than the standard and better integrated into VMS than most other Pascal implementations on their OSs.    Two questions:  o 1.What is the implementation language of the Compaq Pascal? Are there more than one for front-end and back-end?l   2.What about quality of generated code as compared to C for elementary things like arithmetical operations, pointer de-referencing, array indexing, procedure calling (I assume the standard VMS calling mechanism is used that will be equal with C).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 06:08:40 -0800e! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>t8 Subject: RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHPCCAA.tom@kednos.com>s  C The backend on VAX, VCG,  was written in PL/I.  Don't know what theu
 front-end waspC implemented in but I believe that it used the PL/I symbol table ands intermediate language.   Tomn   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]) > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:45 AMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com : > Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN >  >t > John Reagan wrote: > >o > > Paul Dias wrote: > > >n	 > > > Hi,| > > > > > > > Can anyone describe how OpenVMS Pascal would arrange the > following in memory: > > >:& > > > PACKED ARRAY [1..659] OF BOOLEAN > > K > > Appendix A in the Compaq Pascal Reference Manual gives the real details-* > > for how the compiler allocates things. > >lK > > That OpenVMS manual is to let you map the "standard" type names used inrJ > > the OpenVMS manuals to Pascal syntax.  It isn't meant to be the Pascal > > reference. > > E > > Table A-5 in Section A.2.5 (Storage Allocation of Types) says foruH > > Boolean that is packed size in bits is 1.  For PACKED ARRAYs it saysK > > that the size is the sum of the packed sizes in bits of all components,sH > > plus the sum of sizes in bits of any holes created to meet alignmentI > > requirements; if the sum is greater than 32, the sum is rounded up toL > > the next multiple of 8.g > >nD > > So as Arne said the size of that PACKED ARRAY would be 83 bytes. > >hI > > You can get the compiler to tell you this information either with theAL > > SIZE and BITSIZE builtins and with the /SHOW=STRUCTURE_LAYOUT portion of > > the listing file.  > >  > > -- > > John Reagan   > > Compaq Pascal Project Leader >oB > Pascal is one of the best languages and one of the best designed@ > languages and the modularised version of DEC/Compaq Pascal wasC > even better than the standard and better integrated into VMS thans1 > most other Pascal implementations on their OSs.l >o > Two questions: >tA > 1.What is the implementation language of the Compaq Pascal? Aret1 > there more than one for front-end and back-end?a >o= > 2.What about quality of generated code as compared to C ford9 > elementary things like arithmetical operations, pointeroA > de-referencing, array indexing, procedure calling (I assume the-D > standard VMS calling mechanism is used that will be equal with C). >W   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:11:25 -0500c- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>08 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN2 Message-ID: <3AA74CBD.27C413F7@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Christof Brass wrote:t >  >  > Pascal is one of the best languages and one of the best designed languages and the modularised version of DEC/Compaq Pascal was even better than the standard and better integrated into VMS than most other Pascal implementations on their OSs.i  
 Thank you.   >  > Two questions: > q > 1.What is the implementation language of the Compaq Pascal? Are there more than one for front-end and back-end?m  C BLISS in around 45 modules for the front-end.  The front-end is 90%mH common between VAX and Alpha.  On the VAX side there is a little MACRO32H code.  Also on the VAX side, we have our own code generator, object fileF generator, listing package, etc. (another 50 modules or so) whereas on= the Alpha side we use the same GEM code generator/compilationeC environment that the rest of the languages use (GEM is a mixture of  BLISS and C++)   >  > 2.What about quality of generated code as compared to C for elementary things like arithmetical operations, pointer de-referencing, array indexing, procedure calling (I assume the standard VMS calling mechanism is used that will be equal with C).  G On Alpha, we use the exact same GEM code generator and optimizer as theeD C compiler.  The ability of the code generator to get efficient codeB depends on how efficiently the front-end can describe the languageC semantics to the back-end.  C's sometimes weakly typed pointers canhG cause lots of problems, but they try to compensate.  However, C doesn't A have Pascal's concept of uplevel referencing, and Pascal has some H run-time bounds checking enabled by default, etc.  In general, on Alpha,5 I'd rate the code quality the same for most programs.r  A On VAX, we both have our own optimizers and code generators.  ThewA comparison isn't as easy.  Both have their strong points and weak  points.    -- e John Reagan  Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 15:16:12 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEANH Message-ID: <y4lmqg1h3n.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> writes:a  % > (GEM is a mixture of BLISS and C++)y  < I imagine it isn't easy to get those two to work together...   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:57:27 -0500a- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o8 Subject: RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN3 Message-ID: <ktLRqjuW8V9q@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEGNCCAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:i@ > If you could make JNI generate SDL then you call any language.  F I seriously doubt Sun is going to rush out and add SDL capabilities to the JNI.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationd= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:08:32 -0800 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>r8 Subject: RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEIGCCAA.tom@kednos.com>   I I am sure you are right.  It would, however, be easy to modify to producee* SDL then you could pipe the output to SDL.   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]( > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 7:57 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma: > Subject: RE: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN >" >p? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEGNCCAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomi! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:eB > > If you could make JNI generate SDL then you call any language. >sH > I seriously doubt Sun is going to rush out and add SDL capabilities to
 > the JNI. >aH > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge >g   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:59:49 -0500 - From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>e8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN1 Message-ID: <3AA77434.2EAA982@hiyall.zko.dec.com>    Tom Linden wrote:e > E > The backend on VAX, VCG,  was written in PL/I.  Don't know what the, > front-end waseE > implemented in but I believe that it used the PL/I symbol table andd > intermediate language. >  > Tome  H If you are implying that Compaq Pascal on VAX uses the VCG, then you areC incorrect.  VAX Pascal has its own personal code generator that was D based on some work done at Carnegie Mellon (PCQQ, Production QualityG Compiler Compiler).  The only compilers that use the VCG on VAX are, C,SD Ada, PL/I, SCAN, and C++ (?).  Fortran 77, Pascal, BASIC, COBOL, and= BLISS each have their own private code generators/optimizers.0   -- 2 John Reaganr Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 18:16:25 +0100t2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN; Message-ID: <3aa7be69.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>i  * Christof Brass (brass@infopuls.com) wrote:B > Pascal is one of the best languages and one of the best designedE > languages and the modularised version of DEC/Compaq Pascal was evenuI > better than the standard and better integrated into VMS than most othert& > Pascal implementations on their OSs.  
 AMEN to that!a  G And a small correction: IIRC, DEC/Compaq Pascal implements about 75% ofML the ANSI standard for Pascal (lots more than any other - e.g. type schemes).   cu,    Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de.J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:55:52 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAND Message-ID: <OF3DF253F9.D3FEE42D-ON88256A09.006235D7@foundation.com>  C If the C++ calls the BLISS using the "extern c {}" construct in the K declarations, I'd expect it to be pretty easy. Sure, it would take a littletI discipline to keep from shooting yourself in the foot, but from what I've J seen the VMS development teams don't seem to have a problem with that. Ah,- the joys of a standardised calling mechanism.-   Shane-          D Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> on 03/08/2001 06:16:12 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComN cc:7  9 Subject:  Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN     / John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> writes:l  % > (GEM is a mixture of BLISS and C++)t  < I imagine it isn't easy to get those two to work together...        Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:38:11 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>r' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Voter, Message-ID: <3AA744F3.220E3A98@infopuls.com>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > 4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message4 > news:c41cat8m85bcq2lsujsjenlgltnigq738r@4ax.com...8 > > On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:47:02 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"& > > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > >o > >n > > > J > > >I don't recall the details of this year-old poll. Was it sponsored by > > >Compaq? > >o. > > It was actually at www.openvms.digital.com > >  > > >pN > > >In the case of the advocacy mechanism at www.compaqworkinggroup.org, bothK > > >ITUG and ENCOMPASS have contributed substantial financial and personalhN > > >resources to the project. Compaq has done likewise. Compaq management hasN > > >agreed to provide responses to the issues deemed most important by survey > > >and vote participants.
 > > >oK > > >This effort was initiated at the behest of Bill Heil, and Howard Eliase > has3F > > >indicated that he fully supports this and other advocacy efforts. > > H > > I took part in the survey anyway so hopefully we'll see the results.J > > Maybe Charlie Matco's dog could rummage through some waste-baskets andA > > come up with scraps from the unpublished VMS web site survey?A > F > Well, well, well... as fate would have, Charlie's Dog (Muttco to hisM > friends) is gonna have a barkathon this afternoon with someone who might be ) > able to obtain such kibbles and bits...l  #Wouldn't it be nice to have some automatic functions available in email programs and news readers to change a subject like "Just Two Days Left to Vote" into "Just One Day Left to Vote" and "Just Zero Days Left to Vote - Vote Now!" and then maybe "Just One Day after You had to Vote" a.s.o.? uE You may even think of variations. Wouldn't that be real AI, would it?
   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:58:28 -0000,- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)o" Subject: LDAP Client for OpenVMS ?/ Message-ID: <tafb14e489aa70@news.supernews.com>s   Hi,o  I I'm looking for an LDAP Client for OpenVMS.  Did the LDAP client make to c! 7.3?  If so, is 7.3 released yet?   E Sorry to bother everyone with this, but 'ldap' doesn't appear in the OI OpenVMS FAQ, and "Ask The Wizard" is broken from my perspective (runtime   error: "WIZ' is not an object).t   Thanks,    ws   --  1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>o   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:46:44 GMTSF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) Subject: Re: LL format RZ29t5 Message-ID: <UaLp6.3$S91.118@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>.  8 If you really want to low-level format a SCSI drive, try= looking in the SYS$ETC (logical name, points to a) directory,t: where there are a number of tools for SCSI and DSSI device6 manipulation.  RZTOOLS is a good candidate.  Some SCSI8 disk drives can be told to re-format themselves.  I have8 not tried this with an RZ29, but I have done it to other drives.   9 Keep in mind that everything in SYS$ETC is >> USE AT YOURy OWN RISK <<.  : As someone else mentioned, ANALYZE /MEDIA is also a choice8 to see if the drive is working.  It's probably better to try this first.-  8 Also, keep in mind what your data is worth, and what new! SCSI disk drives cost these days.g   -- j(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have a 5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:06:59 +0100p= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>P" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA73DA3.C148306E@gtech.com>a   David Mathog wrote: j > In article <3AA5ED7D.F2DF3EE@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:D > >but I always get a bit suspicious when someone wants someone elseF > >to pay for them (f.ex. large systems to pay for small systems VMS). > J > The largest diversion of all was of all the money poured into VMS by theB > customers and spent by Digital/Compaq to support other projects.   I agree 100% on that one !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:24:47 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <lfjeat00tgpekl59fodqgjchcrofo90h41@4ax.com>  + On 07 Mar 2001 15:35:06 -0600, Graham Allan % <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> wrote:e    C >On this basis Compaq could trivially throw together an ultra-cheapiL >Alpha system based on an existing board like the PC164LX. OK, so at presentL >VMS doesn't run on it, butno doubt it could be made to, and in any case the  F Just like Island Computers hobby machine built out of a 533Mhz PC164:X: motherboard with a VMS capable SRM, mini tower case, 2 IDEC controllers, 2 serial ports 1 parallel port, one floppy, 128MB RAM,dA 12*CD ROM 2.1GB SCSI disk, keyboard and 3 button mouse. All fully E configured for $850. Island will also sell a 12 unit base VMS licenserB for an additional $900 if you want to use the box commercially. ItA would be nice if Compaq could produce such a box themselves or atyD least provide a link to low cost Alphs from Island or anyone else on the VMS home page. a  D I have no connection with Island other than having ordered from themE before but am about to order one of these boxes before they sell themd all!.a  H >argument applies just as much to Unix. Having just installed Tru64 on aJ >PC164LX with cheap (though good, IBM) IDE disk, I am surprised to see howF >well it works... Throw in a DE500 or equivilent, and a VX1 video cardK >(has anyone tried the new driver for this yet?) and you have a pretty nicefM >system - slow compared to the DS10, but perhaps a decent match for the cheaph	 >Sun box?a >y% >Er, it will never happen, of course!  >m >Grahami   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:31:14 -0300l) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.bra" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <OFEC349913.2C934F0E-ON03256A09.0039796F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ) The great problem of Compaq and Alpha is:c  4 1 - Compaq dont share Alpha with other companies .../ 2 - Sun shares Sparc with Fujitsu-Siemens ! ! !c! 3 - IBM shares PowerPC with Applea' 4 - Intel shares Pentium with  etc ....   8 I dont understand why Samsung dont have Alphaservers....7 They should be much more cheaper if made in Korea ! ! !      Regardsi   FC        6 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> em 08/03/2001 06:24:47             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com:      " Assunto: Re: Low cost workstations    + On 07 Mar 2001 15:35:06 -0600, Graham AllanO% <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> wrote:o    C >On this basis Compaq could trivially throw together an ultra-cheaprD >Alpha system based on an existing board like the PC164LX. OK, so at present H >VMS doesn't run on it, butno doubt it could be made to, and in any case thee  F Just like Island Computers hobby machine built out of a 533Mhz PC164:X: motherboard with a VMS capable SRM, mini tower case, 2 IDEC controllers, 2 serial ports 1 parallel port, one floppy, 128MB RAM,tA 12*CD ROM 2.1GB SCSI disk, keyboard and 3 button mouse. All fullylE configured for $850. Island will also sell a 12 unit base VMS licenselB for an additional $900 if you want to use the box commercially. ItA would be nice if Compaq could produce such a box themselves or atnD least provide a link to low cost Alphs from Island or anyone else on the VMS home page.  D I have no connection with Island other than having ordered from themE before but am about to order one of these boxes before they sell themC all!.A  H >argument applies just as much to Unix. Having just installed Tru64 on aJ >PC164LX with cheap (though good, IBM) IDE disk, I am surprised to see howF >well it works... Throw in a DE500 or equivilent, and a VX1 video cardK >(has anyone tried the new driver for this yet?) and you have a pretty nicesG >system - slow compared to the DS10, but perhaps a decent match for the  cheap 	 >Sun box?a >a% >Er, it will never happen, of course!r >n >Grahami   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:44:03 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>C" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA77083.E2F8F230@gtech.com>.   Graham Allan wrote:eD > On this basis Compaq could trivially throw together an ultra-cheapM > Alpha system based on an existing board like the PC164LX. OK, so at presentIM > VMS doesn't run on it, butno doubt it could be made to, and in any case theCI > argument applies just as much to Unix. Having just installed Tru64 on a K > PC164LX with cheap (though good, IBM) IDE disk, I am surprised to see howyG > well it works... Throw in a DE500 or equivilent, and a VX1 video card.L > (has anyone tried the new driver for this yet?) and you have a pretty niceN > system - slow compared to the DS10, but perhaps a decent match for the cheap
 > Sun box?  H I do not think the problem is Compaq's manufacturing price (price of theH components). I think the problem is the cost of compatibility testing in as8 zillion configurations and the overhead in sales effort.  E So instead of finding cheap components it may be much more effeicientL to:nH   - insist on a limited number of supported configurations (f.ex. only 4 types of disks, E     only 1 type of net-cards, only 1 type of SCSI controller, no RAID, controllers,?     only newest VMS/Tru64/Redhat Linux, only LAVC cluster etc.)(A   - only be configurable and orderable over WWW (no sales people,e
 authorizedG     dealers etc. - people config, click buy and the system is send with  Fedex/UPS/DHL)   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:47:46 +0100o= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>f" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA77162.A0AEC8EA@gtech.com>m   Bill Gunshannon wrote:@ > In article <8994A66FFE9ED411BD200008C75D64FD753FA6@BELMAIL02>,3 >  "Vajhoej, Arne" <Arne.Vajhoej@GTECH.COM> writes:y< > |> The reason that VMS is lower than Unix and NT in TCO is/ > |> exactly that it requires less management !e > ? > While this may be true of NT, again, in the case of Unix thishA > is pure FUD from people with no experience whatsoever with realo@ > Unix systems.  I work with all of the above and a running UnixA > server takes no more of my attention than a runnign VMS server.e > ? > I have Unix boxes in wiring closets and even under the raisedr= > floors because they serve particular purposes (like printer.A > servers, dialup servers, etc.) that never require my attention.d  A Since there are whitepapers/reports backing the TCO claim, then I E would not consider it FUD. In general analysts are not that reliable,r@ but a whitepaper from some analysts still carry more weigth than one persons experience.o  , I have f.ex. different experiences than you.  ' > PS. Notice I said Unix and not Linux.r  ? Linux is generally considered one of the many flavours of Unix.s1 And BTW my experience are with Tru64 and Solaris.m   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 15:12:30 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsH Message-ID: <y4ofvc1h9t.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:<  + > The great problem of Compaq and Alpha is:o > 6 > 1 - Compaq dont share Alpha with other companies ...  L Samsung has, and Mitsubishi (IIRC - or was that Matsushita?) used to have anJ architectural Alpha license. Intel, IBM and Samsung fab the chips for DCQ.  1 > 2 - Sun shares Sparc with Fujitsu-Siemens ! ! !e  - A lot of people can and do build SPARC chips.t  # > 3 - IBM shares PowerPC with Apple    Nope - Motorola.  ) > 4 - Intel shares Pentium with  etc ....l  H Nobody. (AMD is the only one left building competing x86 chips, and theyF had a protracted fight with Intel over the right to do so. Intel would' very much prefer for AMD not to exist.)R   : > I dont understand why Samsung dont have Alphaservers....  = But they do - have a look at http://www.alpha-processor.com/.y   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 14:15:29 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon):" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <988461$20oh$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3AA6E812.EE6EF47C@infopuls.com>,,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |> |> JB |> This is your personal observation and as such not questionable.F |> But as it is always pointed out this isn't enough to prove anything/ |> useful beyound this one case. Statistically t  > And what statistic is this??  A survey of VMS administrators??  F |>                                              (and from many sites I7 |> know of including my own experience as a consultant)   6 And you have how much experience as a Unix Sys Admin??  I |>                                                      VMS needs *much* n6 |> less administration effort and attention than UNIX   E Pure personal opinion.  I know of no experienced Unix admin who wouldeB agree,  Just adding users or reseting a password is more difficultB and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,E fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basic,E OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableIB by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2E hour long classroom sessions 24 studetns (8 teams of 3 students each)rB walked into a lab last week and installed Unix on 8 machines.  AndF that's not even what they are actually studying.  It's just one of the tasks the course requires.  I |>                                                    (especially SolarisnE |> because it's instability and lack of conforming to standards) for g  C And what standard does VMS conform to??  Solaris si setup just likedE any SYSV based unix.  Not necessarily the best unix way to do things, % but then that's personal opinion too.(  4 |> beeing able to offer the same volume of service.   D Ridiculous.  Some of the biggest servers on the Internet are running, Unix, not VMS.  Why do you think that is??    D |>                                                  This is in partsG |> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much bettere0 |> sys control language compared to UNIX shells.  F And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others)G Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitnA that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in theoE datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  IlC don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And mytE Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shut  off campus wide.  H And your opinion about DCL versus Unix shells is just that, your opinionE and one not sharted by me and not likley to be shared by any Unix Sys0E Admin worth his salt.  I have seen entire applications written in one-F or another of the Unix shells.  This is bad practice, as it's not whatE they were designed for, and I wouldn't do it, but the truth is it cani be done.  E But all this is OK.  VMS advocates (well, some of them, cause believesC it or not, I don't want to see VMS go away either!!) can keep theiruC heads in the sand secure in the idea that no other OS in existence sG can do what VMS does.  The rest of the world will just have to strugglec6 along getting the job done while totally ignoring VMS.  ? You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new Unix:A systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to themB number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back and@ tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding
 VMS vs. Unix.    bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 07:18:02 CDTr= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell)l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations. Message-ID: <3R9NdecuqOFQ@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  g In article <3AA65EFA.6C65451B@childrenshc.org>, Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> writes:p > dittman@dittman.net wrote: >> a5 >> Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> wrote:mG >> : On this basis Compaq could trivially throw together an ultra-cheapoP >> : Alpha system based on an existing board like the PC164LX. OK, so at presentP >> : VMS doesn't run on it, butno doubt it could be made to, and in any case theL >> : argument applies just as much to Unix. Having just installed Tru64 on aN >> : PC164LX with cheap (though good, IBM) IDE disk, I am surprised to see howJ >> : well it works... Throw in a DE500 or equivilent, and a VX1 video cardO >> : (has anyone tried the new driver for this yet?) and you have a pretty nicenQ >> : system - slow compared to the DS10, but perhaps a decent match for the cheapo
 >> : Sun box?  >> gN >> The VX1 doesn't work on my PC164LX running VMS V7.2-1.  Well, it works, butL >> makes the system so slow as to be unusable (logging in on takes over five9 >> minutes).  I had to go back to my Elsa Gloria Synergy.n >> --h >> Eric Dittmant >> dittman@dittman.net >  > F > So you are indeed running VMS on a PC164LX based system.... Hmmmm... >   I Yes, VMS will run on the PC164LX, though my personal opinion is that thisD< version of the alpha is inferior to others in this regard.    O The srm for this board pays virtually no attention to the "set console serial" tN command.  Fortunately, it will put up a ">>>" prompt and allow a boot command,M but once the boot starts, it goes to the graphics console irregardless of the,N "set console" setting.  When the system is first powered up, it puts *nothing*O to the serial console, again even if the console is set to serial.  You have to C periodically hit the return key on the vt keyboard to get a prompt.s  M This is a minor annoyance.  A much more serious drawback is that it drops outtM of the cluster for no apparent reason.  You can make the disconnection happenvA on demand simply by doing an image backup of the system disk to a P cluster-mounted tape drive.  If you do this, it *will* drop out of the cluster. O Pretty much any intensive i/o to a cluster device will do it.  It happened onceg> on a PCSI install, where the kit was elsewhere in the cluster.    L I don't think it's the network card itself, because it has the same DE500-BA$ that most of my other machines have.  J That machine didn't work with linux either.  Installed and booted, but gotD machine checks on a regular basis.  Haven't tried it with linux 7.0.     Wayne( -- aO ===============================================================================DM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)rO ===============================================================================AO Dean Wormer to Flounder: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:47:18 GMTn From: dittman@dittman.nets" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations@ Message-ID: <WXMp6.57115$sD.4275216@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>  > Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142> wrote:Q : The srm for this board pays virtually no attention to the "set console serial" fP : command.  Fortunately, it will put up a ">>>" prompt and allow a boot command,O : but once the boot starts, it goes to the graphics console irregardless of the8P : "set console" setting.  When the system is first powered up, it puts *nothing*Q : to the serial console, again even if the console is set to serial.  You have toAE : periodically hit the return key on the vt keyboard to get a prompt.@  K I don't have this problem with my PC164LX.  I am able to set the console toeN the serial console and it will use it even if I have the video card installed.K I also get output to the serial console with the console set to graphics ift- the video card is removed, which is expected.s  O : This is a minor annoyance.  A much more serious drawback is that it drops out-O : of the cluster for no apparent reason.  You can make the disconnection happeniC : on demand simply by doing an image backup of the system disk to atR : cluster-mounted tape drive.  If you do this, it *will* drop out of the cluster. Q : Pretty much any intensive i/o to a cluster device will do it.  It happened onceh@ : on a PCSI install, where the kit was elsewhere in the cluster.  H I've not experienced this problem, either.  Mine doesn't drop out of the cluster unexpectedly.a  L : That machine didn't work with linux either.  Installed and booted, but gotF : machine checks on a regular basis.  Haven't tried it with linux 7.0.  L I've not tried Linux on my PC164LX, but I've heard from others that it works6 quite well.  Perhaps you've got a bad board or memory? -- o Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 14:38:39 GMTt1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9885hf$21gv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA77162.A0AEC8EA@gtech.com>, @  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:bC |> > In article <8994A66FFE9ED411BD200008C75D64FD753FA6@BELMAIL02>,a6 |> >  "Vajhoej, Arne" <Arne.Vajhoej@GTECH.COM> writes:? |> > |> The reason that VMS is lower than Unix and NT in TCO isd2 |> > |> exactly that it requires less management ! |> > aB |> > While this may be true of NT, again, in the case of Unix thisD |> > is pure FUD from people with no experience whatsoever with realC |> > Unix systems.  I work with all of the above and a running UnixbD |> > server takes no more of my attention than a runnign VMS server. |> >  B |> > I have Unix boxes in wiring closets and even under the raised@ |> > floors because they serve particular purposes (like printerD |> > servers, dialup servers, etc.) that never require my attention. |> -D |> Since there are whitepapers/reports backing the TCO claim, then IH |> would not consider it FUD. In general analysts are not that reliable,C |> but a whitepaper from some analysts still carry more weigth than  |> one persons experience.  @ If this is in fact true, why are more Unix machines going online? everyday than VMS??  Are you saying that no one int he computere? business takes TCO into consideration for their business plan??0   |> :/ |> I have f.ex. different experiences than you.u  : Abd how much experience do you have as a Unix Sys Admin as; compared to your experience as a VMS Sys Admin??  I've been ; doing Unix for more than 20 years and consider myself to ber= somewhat experienced.  If I had spent all that time doing VMS6= I would likely agree with you, but the fact is neither one istA particularly more difficult assuming equal amounts of experience.eA The "Unix Wizard" mystique dates back from a time when experienceV? with any real system made you a wizard.  IBM had theirs, Univact> had theirs and I am sure VMS has theirs.  But the fact is Unix? is no less reliable and no more difficult to work with than any5 other system.    |> l* |> > PS. Notice I said Unix and not Linux. |> 9B |> Linux is generally considered one of the many flavours of Unix.  A Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited uset? of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongest.> value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had been@ strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of experince with unreliability.m  4 |> And BTW my experience are with Tru64 and Solaris.  = Not meaning to be overly critical, but that means most likely > less than 5 years experience with Unix as neither of them even< existed more than 5 years ago.  And how long have you been a VMS Admin??t   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   :   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:27:30 +0000C- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>D" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations( Message-ID: <3AA796D2.A52DA38@bbc.co.uk>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:   >  rvers.... >e? > But they do - have a look at http://www.alpha-processor.com/.K  ' So, how much do they cost? Anyone know?b     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofv MedAS or the BBC.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:13:19 +0000p  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsH Message-ID: <OF795BAB84.BDE5A90D-ON80256A09.0052F428@qedi.quintiles.com>  D From my experience, MOST decisions in MOST establishments ignore TCOE claims/quotes/statements along with reliability and avoidance of bluee screens.G In many areas of life there is advertising.  In some of these cases the J advertising makes you forget that the product that is being sold to you is4 a bag of bolts and you only look at the good points.   Steve.  H Bill Gunshannon (bil at triangle dot cs dot uofs dot edu) wrote/quoted :G >>>|> Since there are whitepapers/reports backing the TCO claim, then IbH |> would not consider it FUD. In general analysts are not that reliable,C |> but a whitepaper from some analysts still carry more weigth thanH |> one persons experience.  @ If this is in fact true, why are more Unix machines going online? everyday than VMS??  Are you saying that no one int he computerRB business takes TCO into consideration for their business plan??<<<   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:15:37 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>E" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9887ml$dt76$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  J A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SunL Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server viaJ a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,E and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server bygG running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendstJ compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen.  L Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combinedK with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelyiK contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug ite3 into another, and instantly be back where you were.x  I But I hope they are buying BIG servers if they plan on deploying a lot ofsK Sun Rays.  They do not distribute *any* computing.  They are a 21st centuryv dumb terminal.    8 fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ... >-J >The brazilian government will make investments of US$ 500 milion in IT to >the public schoolss$ >and hospitals in all the country... >uE >If Sun wins, it is planning to put Sun  Rays in all the country ....n >oK >What is Compaq offering ???? I dont know .... probably will not be OpenVMS<0 >to the hospitals .... Cerner  ? Where are you ? > G >I know just Sun., Dell, brazilians Microtec (ex-DEC owned) and Procompd >(which developed  >the voting computer) . . .  >h >Regards >t >FCa >l >  >e >. >t > I >Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@k9.petrobras.com.br em 07/03/2001s	 >13:06:07  >e( >Enviado Por:   prep@k9.petrobras.com.br >i >t >  >  >      Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >  >o >-# >Assunto: Re: Low cost workstationsi >w > ( >"John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: >fE >> The marketing value is worth much more than the revenue loss!  Sunn >> understands this. >sE >What loss? It cost nothing to 'give away' the licence, in fact, lessuD >than 'not giving away' the licence. Reality is, you probably have a! >revenue profit from the CD kits.o >oF >The only loss is 'oppertunity loss'. And Sun can see that the overall1 >profits are increased by freeing up the low end.s >n >-- = >Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,i8 >+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.A >                                             West Australia 6076T/ >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.q >t >a >. >> >t >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:36:42 -0300o) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brh" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <OF8460AE13.695210E6-ON03256A09.00559C65@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  # 21th  century dumb terminal ! ?????m   Bless of God ! ! !  H When it will be implemented under OpenVMS ???? It will reduce the TCO as promised by Sun Microsystems.   F Ok, ok .... lets ask SRI if they will port the VMS Emulator to Solaris .....t     Regards    FC        F "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> em 08/03/2001 12:15:37             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como      " Assunto: Re: Low cost workstations    J A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SunH Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server via(J a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,E and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server bymG running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sends J compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen.  C Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication,  combinedK with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completely K contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug itl3 into another, and instantly be back where you were.e  I But I hope they are buying BIG servers if they plan on deploying a lot oftK Sun Rays.  They do not distribute *any* computing.  They are a 21st centuryS dumb terminal.    8 fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote in message ... >uJ >The brazilian government will make investments of US$ 500 milion in IT to >the public schoolse$ >and hospitals in all the country... >dE >If Sun wins, it is planning to put Sun  Rays in all the country ....l > K >What is Compaq offering ???? I dont know .... probably will not be OpenVMSx0 >to the hospitals .... Cerner  ? Where are you ? >eG >I know just Sun., Dell, brazilians Microtec (ex-DEC owned) and Procomps >(which developedr >the voting computer) . . .o >t >Regards >t >FCm >  >  >' >n >w >tI >Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@k9.petrobras.com.br em 07/03/2001t	 >13:06:07o > ( >Enviado Por:   prep@k9.petrobras.com.br >w >. >  >  >      Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >x >e > # >Assunto: Re: Low cost workstationso >h >e( >"John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: >iE >> The marketing value is worth much more than the revenue loss!  Suni >> understands this. > E >What loss? It cost nothing to 'give away' the licence, in fact, lessdD >than 'not giving away' the licence. Reality is, you probably have a! >revenue profit from the CD kits.l >oF >The only loss is 'oppertunity loss'. And Sun can see that the overall1 >profits are increased by freeing up the low end.i >h >--a= >Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,s8 >+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.A >                                             West Australia 6076a/ >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.  >t >t >p >t >  >t   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:36:34 +0200 (MET).9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <01K0YLFV514O91S4XQ@sysdev.exchange.de>e  F > From my experience, MOST decisions in MOST establishments ignore TCOG > claims/quotes/statements along with reliability and avoidance of blueaH > screens. In many areas of life there is advertising.  In some of theseG > cases the advertising makes you forget that the product that is beinghF > sold to you is a bag of bolts and you only look at the good points.   I To get back to the academic angle, many places the budgets for hardware, 6H software, administration (salaries) etc come from separate pots.  Thus, H when deciding to buy, say, software, lower TCO through less maintenance E is not an issue, especially if the staff are already on the payroll, aE perhaps permanently (and might be actively opposed to a system which iB would leave them looking useless---as it says in the Unix Haters' G Handbook, when you unix sysadmin mentions security, he's talking about  F his job).  Bottom line: TCO is probably not an issue when it comes to F VMS making inroads into the academic market.  Also, TCO plays no role G here not only when purchasing, but also during operations: if you lose dH your research work, say, then it isn't directly reflected in "profits", I especially at a non-profit institution; the situation is quite different cI in business, where system down time etc has direct consequences in terms L	 of money.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:23:33 +0100l= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>k" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations( Message-ID: <3AA7A3F5.614E2A9@gtech.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3AA77162.A0AEC8EA@gtech.com>, B >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:oE > |> > In article <8994A66FFE9ED411BD200008C75D64FD753FA6@BELMAIL02>,h8 > |> >  "Vajhoej, Arne" <Arne.Vajhoej@GTECH.COM> writes:A > |> > |> The reason that VMS is lower than Unix and NT in TCO isa4 > |> > |> exactly that it requires less management ! > |> >D > |> > While this may be true of NT, again, in the case of Unix thisF > |> > is pure FUD from people with no experience whatsoever with realE > |> > Unix systems.  I work with all of the above and a running UnixyF > |> > server takes no more of my attention than a runnign VMS server. > |> >D > |> > I have Unix boxes in wiring closets and even under the raisedB > |> > floors because they serve particular purposes (like printerF > |> > servers, dialup servers, etc.) that never require my attention. > |>F > |> Since there are whitepapers/reports backing the TCO claim, then IJ > |> would not consider it FUD. In general analysts are not that reliable,E > |> but a whitepaper from some analysts still carry more weigth than  > |> one persons experience. > B > If this is in fact true, why are more Unix machines going onlineA > everyday than VMS??  Are you saying that no one int he computersA > business takes TCO into consideration for their business plan??e   Yes !   F There are no evidence to support a theory of companies looking much at TCO.   If that was the case, then:=   - MS would have been a fiascotA   - unemployment rates among computer people would have been highc  , > |> > PS. Notice I said Unix and not Linux. > |>D > |> Linux is generally considered one of the many flavours of Unix. > C > Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited use=A > of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongestt@ > value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had beenB > strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of > experince with unreliability.-  ? Actually my experience regarding reliability is something like:e   1) VMS 2) Tru64 & Linux 3) Solaris (both 1 & 2):
 4) Windows  C I have heard that FreeBSD/OpenBSD are better than Linux, but I havef neverm tried them.t  6 > |> And BTW my experience are with Tru64 and Solaris. > ? > Not meaning to be overly critical, but that means most likelya@ > less than 5 years experience with Unix as neither of them even  > existed more than 5 years ago.   ????  B AFAIK then Tru64 started in 1992 (different name, but same OS) andF Solaris 2 started in 1991 (I consider Solaris 1 to be  adifferent OS).  - That is 9 and 10 years according to my math !    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:27:09 +0100a= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>o" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7A4CD.76F50AAA@gtech.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:A > You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new Unix-C > systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to thecD > number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andB > tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > VMS vs. Unix.e   And ?   > If you compare number of Windows systems installed with number? of Unix systems installed, then you would conslude that Windowse is better than Unix ??   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:37:46 +0100x= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7A749.19C83CCF@gtech.com>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SunN > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server viaL > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,G > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server bycI > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendseL > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen. > N > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combinedM > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelyOM > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug it>5 > into another, and instantly be back where you were.a  = So it is more like what in the PC world would be a "dedicatedh PC-Anywhere-client system" !   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 15:51:56 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9889qs$23br$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  H In article <OF795BAB84.BDE5A90D-ON80256A09.0052F428@qedi.quintiles.com>,#  steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:r |> > |> eG |> From my experience, MOST decisions in MOST establishments ignore TCOeH |> claims/quotes/statements along with reliability and avoidance of blue |> screens.FJ |> In many areas of life there is advertising.  In some of these cases theM |> advertising makes you forget that the product that is being sold to you is 7 |> a bag of bolts and you only look at the good points.   I While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor quality and highkH TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain the success ofG FreeBSD??  People here would claim that it is unreliable, hard to use, vF hard to admin and has a high TCO.  And yet, unlike Linux, they have noJ marketing department and don't advertise at all.  And I would bet that theJ number of FreeBSD system being used for real work is many times the number8 of VMS systems.  And yes, some of them are rather large.   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:15:58 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsH Message-ID: <OF0779D0D3.F144BDFA-ON80256A09.00592F0F@qedi.quintiles.com>  C I have no information so can't claim that you're right or not aboutlD Free-BSD.  It's kindof an orthogonal argument though.  The fact thatH Free-BSD does well without advertising neither proves nor disproves that" advertising can overcome crapness.    bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu wrote:G >>>While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor quality ando highH TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain the success ofF FreeBSD??  People here would claim that it is unreliable, hard to use,F hard to admin and has a high TCO.  And yet, unlike Linux, they have noJ marketing department and don't advertise at all.  And I would bet that theJ number of FreeBSD system being used for real work is many times the number8 of VMS systems.  And yes, some of them are rather large. <<<.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:05:41 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <opafatcquuv571hek4j9fa2nsavhcepvur@4ax.com>  < On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:47:18 GMT, dittman@dittman.net wrote:  ? >Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142> wrote:h  P >: This is a minor annoyance.  A much more serious drawback is that it drops outP >: of the cluster for no apparent reason.  You can make the disconnection happenD >: on demand simply by doing an image backup of the system disk to aS >: cluster-mounted tape drive.  If you do this, it *will* drop out of the cluster. -R >: Pretty much any intensive i/o to a cluster device will do it.  It happened onceA >: on a PCSI install, where the kit was elsewhere in the cluster.D >8I >I've not experienced this problem, either.  Mine doesn't drop out of thei >cluster unexpectedly. >eM >: That machine didn't work with linux either.  Installed and booted, but gotcG >: machine checks on a regular basis.  Haven't tried it with linux 7.0.e >hM >I've not tried Linux on my PC164LX, but I've heard from others that it works 7 >quite well.  Perhaps you've got a bad board or memory?t    F Could it just be a difference in SRM versions? I'm just about to order1 one? What  firmware versions do each of you have?k  B Also do either of you have IDE disks. The VMS faq seems to suggestA that they will work with the restriction that you can't boot froms them. Anyone able to confirm?H -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:19:39 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 14:15:29 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billr Gunshannon) wrote:  - >In article <3AA6E812.EE6EF47C@infopuls.com>,c- > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:s  J >|>                                                      VMS needs *much* 7 >|> less administration effort and attention than UNIX t >iF >Pure personal opinion.  I know of no experienced Unix admin who wouldC >agree,  Just adding users or reseting a password is more difficult   @ Well I've administered multiple Unix systems including HP-UX andF Ultrix and I certainly agree that VMS is easier to admin. Adding usersE or resetting a password is difficult?? Are you sure you are not using.F MVS! What could be easier than $ MCR AUTHORIZE MODI USER/PASS=password  @ Most sites will create a simple DCL menu for tasks such as these anyway.m  C >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,nF >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basicF >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableC >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2s  @ Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fullyD available in about 5 minutes. Yes I can think of more time consumingF ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster common! startup files what's the problem?s  F >hour long classroom sessions 24 studetns (8 teams of 3 students each)C >walked into a lab last week and installed Unix on 8 machines.  AndtG >that's not even what they are actually studying.  It's just one of thel >tasks the course requires.C  @ I'm sue they could have done the same with VMS. Perhaps quicker.   >hJ >|>                                                    (especially SolarisF >|> because it's instability and lack of conforming to standards) for  > D >And what standard does VMS conform to??  Solaris si setup just likeF >any SYSV based unix.  Not necessarily the best unix way to do things,& >but then that's personal opinion too. >m5 >|> beeing able to offer the same volume of service. ! >uE >Ridiculous.  Some of the biggest servers on the Internet are running'- >Unix, not VMS.  Why do you think that is??     < (Lack of) Marketing of VMS over the years. Plain and simple.   >rE >|>                                                  This is in parts H >|> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much better1 >|> sys control language compared to UNIX shells.  > G >And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others).H >Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitB >that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in theF >datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  ID >don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And myF >Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shut >off campus wide.> > I >And your opinion about DCL versus Unix shells is just that, your opinionbF >and one not sharted by me and not likley to be shared by any Unix SysF >Admin worth his salt.  I have seen entire applications written in oneG >or another of the Unix shells.  This is bad practice, as it's not whateF >they were designed for, and I wouldn't do it, but the truth is it can	 >be done.i  F You can write entire apps in DCL. I can think of several people I know? personally who are experienced Unix shell users who prefer DCL.r   >tF >But all this is OK.  VMS advocates (well, some of them, cause believeD >it or not, I don't want to see VMS go away either!!) can keep theirD >heads in the sand secure in the idea that no other OS in existence H >can do what VMS does.  The rest of the world will just have to struggle7 >along getting the job done while totally ignoring VMS.i  D But that's not happening. We are getting via DII COE Unix shells and* APIs back as well as a faster file system.   >n@ >You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new UnixB >systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to theC >number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andeA >tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regardinga >VMS vs. Unix.  F The majority of the world doesn't understand VMS so they cant possibly share a VMS advocates opinions.m   >r >billm   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 08:59:03 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <dKVW10yDzAAi@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  M In article <OFEC349913.2C934F0E-ON03256A09.0039796F@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, b/     fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:e > : > I dont understand why Samsung dont have Alphaservers....9 > They should be much more cheaper if made in Korea ! ! !o > @     I thought they were supposed to. For several years there was@ talk of cheap Alphas from other manufacturers, it doesn't appearC anything ever came of it. I presume they didn't bother because they ? realized there wasn't enough market for Alphas to make it wortho> their trouble. You can't run Windows 2000 on Alphas ( that wasA supposed to be the market that would make volume Alphas viable ).n9 There's not much point in buying a cheap Alpha for VMS orsA Tru64 when the OS licenses cost so much. Even in education (wherevA price is always paramount) we couldn't use clone Alphas easily - o= Compaq doesn't allow them to be included in the CSLG program.'A This leaves Linux as the only possible market where a cheap AlphanD makes any sense - and there apparently aren't that many applications> for Linux where the performance boost an Alpha might have over Intel is significant.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:22:58 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <1acfatoe2s3qijg4tdm6uie2b61j781043@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 14:38:39 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billm Gunshannon) wrote:   > ? >had theirs and I am sure VMS has theirs.  But the fact is Unixe@ >is no less reliable and no more difficult to work with than any >other system. s  F It was a design goal of VMS to be more reliable and easier to use thanB Unix and I personally think they met that goal. Of course Unix hasB become more reliable and easier to use thanks to ever more complex shell scripts as time has past.t     >o> >Not meaning to be overly critical, but that means most likely? >less than 5 years experience with Unix as neither of them event= >existed more than 5 years ago.  And how long have you been ac >VMS Admin??  F So now we know. 20 years of Unix experience and Unix is as easy to useF as VMS. I would argue you need far less time to reach proficiency as a	 VMS admin    >e >bills   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:59:00 -0800s! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comn" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsD Message-ID: <OF392F3D75.35486AD2-ON88256A09.00628CCF@foundation.com>  J I believe Cyrix still produce budget x86 chips. They've been taken over byK somebody, IIRC, but the chips are still being produced. I stumbled across aoC review of one somewhere the other night, it was definitely low end.    Shanel          D Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> on 03/08/2001 06:12:30 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt cc:L  # Subject:  Re: Low cost workstations-    + fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:   + > The great problem of Compaq and Alpha is:o >g6 > 1 - Compaq dont share Alpha with other companies ...  I Samsung has, and Mitsubishi (IIRC - or was that Matsushita?) used to have7 anJ architectural Alpha license. Intel, IBM and Samsung fab the chips for DCQ.  1 > 2 - Sun shares Sparc with Fujitsu-Siemens ! ! !I  - A lot of people can and do build SPARC chips.@  # > 3 - IBM shares PowerPC with AppleA   Nope - Motorola.  ) > 4 - Intel shares Pentium with  etc ....l  H Nobody. (AMD is the only one left building competing x86 chips, and theyF had a protracted fight with Intel over the right to do so. Intel would' very much prefer for AMD not to exist.)   : > I dont understand why Samsung dont have Alphaservers....  = But they do - have a look at http://www.alpha-processor.com/.s        Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:49:42 +0000n- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7AA16.5F9E8322@bbc.co.uk>>   Arne Vajhj wrote:   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:N > > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SunP > > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server viaN > > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,I > > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server bynK > > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendsnN > > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen. > > P > > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combinedO > > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelylO > > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug ita7 > > into another, and instantly be back where you were.s >r? > So it is more like what in the PC world would be a "dedicatedo > PC-Anywhere-client system" !  K sounds to me like a remote graphics connection to a very large workstation.t  N I seem to remember some talk that a dedicated network card was needed for each Sunray?t) Can someone with real infor confirm/deny?  --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukh  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.>   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:19:36 +0200 (MET)y1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <01K0YR46ULYA9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>    Attention: zero VMS content!  I > I believe Cyrix still produce budget x86 chips. They've been taken overiG > by somebody, IIRC, but the chips are still being produced. I stumbledtI > across a review of one somewhere the other night, it was definitely low  > end. 7  H I had such a PC once.  After a year and a half of legal red tape, I got E the company I bought it from, Comtech, to buy it (DM 899) back, also hI paying for my costs to get an expert opinion (DM 2500) confirming that I oG was right and they were wrong when I said it was defective (it was the r1 memory, not the CPU) as well as my lawyer's fees.o  H Folks, this company frauds customers intentionally and on a large scale.I If you are in the unfortunate position of having to buy a PC in Germany, eE avoid them at all costs.  Just a week after I finally got rid of it, lI there was a newspaper article about a customer who was forced to pay for  F a memory module even though he said "that's too big; it won't fit" at G the cash register.  I have since heard of a couple of other such cases c& directly, and half a dozen indirectly.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 18:21:36 GMT * From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations2 Message-ID: <988ijg$m37$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  , In article <9885hf$21gv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,4 	bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  C > Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited useuA > of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongestd@ > value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had beenB > strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of > experince with unreliability.  >   M That's a load of shit, plain and simple.  While it may not be the most stableiI unix out there, nor the most technically advanced, it is quite stable andnK very competent for many tasks.  How exactly does it serve as a bad example? N I've got production linux boxes which have been serving databases continuouslyK since oct '99...no reboots...no crashes...no downtime...nothing.  In fact, tG I've not had to think about the thing in months.  In general, we've hadsN more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200K with RA81/RA82 disks) and our Digital Unix box than with some of our Linux s boxes.  O The database server is a run-of-the-mill Dell Poweredge 2200...nothing special,>N but not generic crap either.  The only instability I've ever seen in linux hasO been related to running a development version of the kernel, or flaky hardware.     
 Brian Wheelers bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:45:50 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081056370.21469-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  5 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >=20D > > If this is in fact true, why are more Unix machines going onlineC > > everyday than VMS??  Are you saying that no one int he computertC > > business takes TCO into consideration for their business plan??  >=20 > Yes !V >=20H > There are no evidence to support a theory of companies looking much at > TCO. >=20 > If that was the case, then:e! >   - MS would have been a fiasconC >   - unemployment rates among computer people would have been highc  A MS offsets their high TCO with marketing, a very powerful weapon.eD But this then fails to explain the success of FreeBSD.  A supposedly6 inferior product that doesn't do any marketing at all.  E > > Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited use.C > > of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongesttB > > value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had beenD > > strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of! > > experince with unreliability.t >=20A > Actually my experience regarding reliability is something like:  >=20 > 1) VMS > 2) Tru64 & Linux > 3) Solaris (both 1 & 2)l > 4) Windows  I Witht he exception of #1, you seem to been very successful at picking ther" worst examples of everything else.  B #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??  And you can see my comments      regarding Linux above.v  H #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix)I      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.  EverythinguH      prior to about 2.5 was little more than beta software.  I have usedH      versions as recent as Solaris 7.  I would not use it here in a real      production environment.   >=20E > I have heard that FreeBSD/OpenBSD are better than Linux, but I have2 > neveru
 > tried them.n  H FreeBSD built upon decades of academic and yes, even commercial researchE and development.  Development distributions are kept separate from=20rF production quality distributions.  Production distributions are stableB and reliable, regardless of what some here might say.  Some of theG largest Internet servers are running it and never seem to make the kindaF of headlines Ebay does.  Unlike Linux, FreeBSD has targeted the serverF arena where stability and scalability are considerations.  Also unlikeG Linux, they have expanded their presence in the business with virtuallyhH no marketing or advertising at all.  That in itself should say something about the product.   >=208 > > |> And BTW my experience are with Tru64 and Solaris. > >=20A > > Not meaning to be overly critical, but that means most likelygB > > less than 5 years experience with Unix as neither of them even" > > existed more than 5 years ago. >=20 > ???? >=20D > AFAIK then Tru64 started in 1992 (different name, but same OS) andH > Solaris 2 started in 1991 (I consider Solaris 1 to be  adifferent OS). >=20/ > That is 9 and 10 years according to my math !o  I I'll have to grant you this one, however, I thought Tru64 was much newer.lI In 1992 DEC was still shipping Ultrix-32 (which was a pretty good productcG in it's own right).  Tru64 I believe traces it's ancestry through OSF1, F yet another "Let's re-invent the Unix wheel" program.  Solaris 1 neverH existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple versionsE of SunOS.  I don't think real Solaris showed up until after 1995, butrH I would have to go back an look at records to tell.  It wouldn't be thatH hard.  All I have to do is look for the point at which we stopped buying	 from Sun.    bill   --=20 J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |C Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  =20t   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 01:10:32 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available for  download - Message-ID: <87ae6wrxtj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:e  F > This is one of the best web sites. It is lightning fast and readable@ > with every browser. No fancy graphics, instead sound and solid? > information. Well organised and easy to find information. The ? > product seems to be very much developed and to be in a mature D > state. Documentation is mostly around in HTML/PDF and some only inD > PDF - all can directly be downloaded from the Web site - includingB > the database itself for all major platforms (VMS, True64, Linux,( > AIX, HP-UX, Solaris) and even Windoze.  - Such a pleasant change. And it was READABLE!!     B > From what I read it is a clear Oracle competitor but without theE > Oracle8i object and Java extensions. But with full fledged triggerst@ > and stored procedures according to SQL standards - even with a > precompiler for embedded SQL.C  & There is a Java kit available as well.  : > I asked some questions and got fast and precise answers.  " > The development platform is VMS!? > The implementation language is *not* C or a similar language.s1 > They offer evaluation and development licences:f  E > Quote from the licence section (under products is a link "Mimer SQLi > Licensing"):  A > The free Mimer SQL Development version can only be used for theeD > purposes of evaluation, application development and testing; it is@ > not licensed to be used in a production environment. To put anE > application based on Mimer SQL into production a Mimer SQL run-time  > license is required.  A The version I read was that the 'up-to' 10 user licence was free, F more, pay. Pay for support as well if you want it. Need to check that.  E BTW, installation is so easy it can bite you. Run the exe and *pow* aAC complete subtree with everything in place. Run the startup file and.E you are running. DON'T do this thinking it is a compessed backup savem set or the like.  ! Looks very nice and clean so far.e   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:01:36 +0000u) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>nW Subject: Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available fordownloada, Message-ID: <3AA74A70.1D2476FE@infopuls.com>   Alan Greig wrote:p > 6 > On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:34:57 +0100, "Peter Ljungberg"% > <peter.p.ljungberg@telia.se> wrote:  >  > >i! > >http://www.mimer.com/developerL > >a > * > Hmm, this looks like it is worth a look. >  > >r > >/P.Lj > >l >  > -- > Alan  This is one of the best web sites. It is lightning fast and readable with every browser. No fancy graphics, instead sound and solid information. Well organised and easy to find information. The product seems to be very much developed and to be in a mature state. Documentation is mostly around in HTML/PDF and some only in PDF - all can directly be downloaded from the Web site - including the database itself for all major platforms (VMS, True64, Linux, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris) and even Windoze.c   From what I read it is a clear Oracle competitor but without the Oracle8i object and Java extensions. But with full fledged triggers and stored procedures according to SQL standards - even with a precompiler for embedded SQL.y  8 I asked some questions and got fast and precise answers.    The development platform is VMS!= The implementation language is *not* C or a similar language.m/ They offer evaluation and development licences:   P Quote from the licence section (under products is a link "Mimer SQL Licensing"):  The free Mimer SQL Development version can only be used for the purposes of evaluation, application development and testing; it is not licensed to be used in a production environment. To put an application based on Mimer SQL into production a Mimer SQL run-time license is required.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:43:25 +0000y- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> - Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)i) Message-ID: <3AA77E6C.4231E5B5@bbc.co.uk>    Paul Repacholi wrote:h  - > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:r > - > > Just for small servers or Workstations...u > >t/ > > Never  a GS ... I am not nuts ! ! !   :-)))t >eH > Why? Is it too hard to imagine having news crews dumping their digital0 > video into the  GS studio archive/edit system?  G No, I can image big music and video production studios benefitting fromaI centralized data storage on a VMS cluster rather than individual PC/Mac's I strew around the building. However, it needs applications, and someone toe market to those people.h    --e6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk-  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:10:34 -0300u) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br3- Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)sL Message-ID: <OF0E9760D7.2E39F9F8-ON03256A09.00534DC1@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  9 Sounds good implement IEEE 1394 under Fibre Channel ! ! !w   Video Servers or Video SANs   
 Fabio Cardoso         > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> em 08/03/2001 09:43:25  ) Favor responder a tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.ukx             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come      - Assunto: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)s         Paul Repacholi wrote:m  - > fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:  >e- > > Just for small servers or Workstations...n > >r/ > > Never  a GS ... I am not nuts ! ! !   :-)))A >hH > Why? Is it too hard to imagine having news crews dumping their digital0 > video into the  GS studio archive/edit system?  G No, I can image big music and video production studios benefitting from I centralized data storage on a VMS cluster rather than individual PC/Mac'saI strew around the building. However, it needs applications, and someone tow market to those people.g    --O6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:22:11 +0000f- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>2- Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire) ) Message-ID: <3AA7A3A3.9B1539DD@bbc.co.uk>a  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  ; > Sounds good implement IEEE 1394 under Fibre Channel ! ! !d >  > Video Servers or Video SANss >. > Fabio Cardosoa >M  G It must be 4 or 5 years since "Video on demand" was first touted as the L next big thing after cable TV. I remember seeing a room full of StorageworksI kit in a datacentre on a TV article about this. Since then I have seen noA	 offerings J in the TV areana that remoptely come close to video on demand. OK, you canI get digital TV now and the pay-per-view cable channels, but those are notcI on demand, you still have to wait for the start time every 90 mins or so.g  F Is this just a UK based problem, like the slow ADSL uptake, or was theM technology really not ready for video on demad (start the show when you want,l pause, rewind etc)?  --c6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uko  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:29:58 +0000t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AA74306.438E0BD4@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > In article <01K0XCVQK34Q9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>,e6 >  Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> writes:E > |> > With the CSLG you also get a lot of layered products. I'm sureeD > |> > you can emulate most of these with freeware, but it's nice to; > |> > have a supported collection designed for that OS.=20  > |>M > |> You get CDs four times a year with up-to-date versions of compilers etc.oJ > |> these also being Very Good Compilers, and can install them all easilyF > |> from a (character-cell-based, thankfully) menu, with HELP gettingH > |> updated automatically etc.  It would take A LOT more time to do theJ > |> same with freeware, even assuming software of comparable quality were > |> available.  > F > Read my lips....  It is not easier to install software on a VMS thanK > it is on Unix.  It is only different.  There are more languages availablerG > in freeware for Unix than there are from Compaq for VMS.  the qualityAG > is perfectly acceptable.  In some cases (as int he case of Ada) it isuF > either better or exactly the same.  There are more programs of everyI > type available for Unix as freeware than for VMS in any form.  It would-G > not take longer to do it with freeware.  If I am really impatient andlJ > have lots of diskspace to spare I can install EVERYTHING with one singleG > command on a FreeBSD system.  No swapping the 20 LP disks in and out. E > I can start it at 4PM, go home and come back in the morning to findvF > everything installed.  No, I don't usually install stuff that is notF > really needed, but it can be done.  But I can and do select a subsetJ > of desired packages, start the install rolling and go of to do somethingH > else.  No babysitting, no hand-holding.  Doing VMS Installs requires a> > good deal more of my attention and swapping all those disks. > F > It's time to face the fact that VMS is loosing this battle.  You canG > keep your head buried in the sand and let things run their course, oraH > you can join the fight to try and convince Compaq that they need to atG > least plug the holes in the bottom of the boat.  But the mantra "UnixtG > is garbage" just isn't going to save anything.  It may have been trueiH > once (but I doubt it) but it is definitely not true today. And all the > chanting won't make it true. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  You have a point with FreeBSD which seems to be the by far best organised and strange enough most standardised UNIX around. But UNIX *was*, *is* and *will be* garbage because of its built-in weaknesses, lack of architecture etc.. The shells suck. The commands suck. The API sucks. The attitude of *most* UNIX programmers and hence the quality of UNIX apps sucks. Wanna start this discussion again?x If the installation process on VMS needs some improvement - fine, let's do that. But the problems of UNIX cannot be cured because they are *built-in*!eStatistically you need much more UNIX sysadmins to take of the same work load than you need VMS sysadmins. This has several reasons which one of them is that it is harder on UNIX to avoid mistakes. If all is setup and working properly than you might be able to keep the amount of work low. But if you have to change something substantial you need more time.c This is of course no reason to prevent Q to improve what have to or can be improved. If you have specific criticism directed to VMS behaviour/constraints you are welcome. But please forget th UNIX song.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:57:15 +0100-= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>i( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>n   Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > Read my lips....  It is not easier to install software on a VMS thanK > it is on Unix.  It is only different.  There are more languages available0G > in freeware for Unix than there are from Compaq for VMS.  the qualitytG > is perfectly acceptable.  In some cases (as int he case of Ada) it isuF > either better or exactly the same.  There are more programs of everyI > type available for Unix as freeware than for VMS in any form.  It wouldnG > not take longer to do it with freeware.  If I am really impatient and J > have lots of diskspace to spare I can install EVERYTHING with one singleG > command on a FreeBSD system.  No swapping the 20 LP disks in and out.aE > I can start it at 4PM, go home and come back in the morning to findaF > everything installed.  No, I don't usually install stuff that is notF > really needed, but it can be done.  But I can and do select a subsetJ > of desired packages, start the install rolling and go of to do somethingH > else.  No babysitting, no hand-holding.  Doing VMS Installs requires a> > good deal more of my attention and swapping all those disks.   ????  B You claim that you have to switch LP CD's on VMS but not on Unix ?   That is nonsense !  D If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use an2 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.  E You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL bute youe- can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ?0  F I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL's> that could not just run for themselves and the majority of the VMSINSTAL's  can do that as well.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:48:36 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program( Message-ID: <3AA77FA4.DC9BA29@bbc.co.uk>   David Mathog wrote:n   >  . > K > Compaq is not playing catchup - they just aren't playing period.  And thehJ > new academic program is ironically the ultimate proof of that.  It is anI > astonishingly awful piece of crap.  The CSLG is expensive, but at leastpJ > useful.  The new program is completely useless.  It seems the only thingE > that it has accomplished is to convince a few more holdouts (myself L > included) to get the heck off VMS so that we don't have to deal with these > bozos any more.o >  >o  L Doesn''t the new program means that you don't have to buy a VMS base licence@ for machines you have on DECCampus/CSLG?  Isn't that a positive? --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uku  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMTd1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <9886ok$2222$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <djDsIzkdzeL8@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e.  kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes: |> .C |> If you want to do it the hard way, be my guest, but don't use itaC |> as an example of how unix installs are better than VMS installs. C |> I normally copy the installations from CD onto another media and B |> then create answer files and have it all go in one, unattended,B |> swoop.  Zip the kits and answer files up and ship them to otherC |> systems and do the same.  Quite easy, really.  I do that when itu; |> comes to doing a bulk patch install on multiple systems.   C But that's another whole set of things you need to do that I don't.eA And, I would still need to do sit there and swap disks to put alleE the necessary pieces on whatever media.  All this does is add anothertC layer of comp[lexity which only pays off if you have a large number,G of systems.  I have two.  And they don't share any common media format.    |> aC |> And constantly chanting that the sky is falling doesn't make VMSr |> any less viable.   ? 1: The sky is falling.  I'm trying to gather the people to helpr?     shore it up.  But they all have their heads in the sand andu(     can't see that it really is falling.@ 2:  Nobody said VMS isn't viable.  All I am saying is VMS is not?     the best thing since sliced bread.   Chanting over and overP>     that Unix is less rfeliable, harder to use, more expensive>     to maintain, etc. is not going to put more VMS systems out>     in the world.  The world is just laughing up their sleeves>     and bringing more and more Unix (and consequently less and     less VMS) systems online.-  B |>                  Just because you don't get anything out of it,  B I don't "get anything out of" any computer.  Admining them is justA my job, not my life.  I have watched the academic use of VMS dropy? to zero here.  Othere have shared this same experience.  Is thee
 sky falling??u   |> or have an axe to grind,   D My only axe to grind is not against VMS, it is against the anti-UnixC bigots who pass out more FUD than even Andrew.  It's just of a moretA palatable flavor for this particular group, so they latch onto it  faster.   C |>                          doesn't mean we all should throw in the  |> towel.     E I would hope that if you read my other posts here you would have seenoG that throwing int he towel is the last thing I am calling for.  I wouldiE like to see a real, usable educational program.  I would like to see  C Compaq do what so many others have done and pump cheap or even freetC equipment into education in order to at least get their logo in theaF view of future desicision makers again.  I would like to see a programE started, financed by either Compaq or by concerned VMS supporters, totG prot/re-write some of the opensource freeware out there for VMS so that E the applications would exist to get VMS back on the desktop, where ita  belongs as much as any other OS.  F Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,F and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is.   bill   -- fJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMTt1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)u( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <98881d$2222$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,o@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> .E |> You claim that you have to switch LP CD's on VMS but not on Unix ?i |>   |> That is nonsense !n  I First, I can install all of the FreeBSD (my preference for Unix) packagestH from the net.  This means virtually unlimited media size to install fromJ and availability of current versions at all times.  A smaller, more static> subset of the most commonly used packages are available on CD.   |> sG |> If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use anm5 |> 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.a  I Well, I haven't actually counted it all up, but I doubt there is anywhererG near that much on the LP disks.  They are just badly packaged.  And noteH in any logical order.  How many different CD's do you need to look at toG load: COBOL, Fortran, PascaL, C, Ada.  And that's just compilers.  EveneD on the CD distribution of freeBSD all the compilers are on one disk.   |>  H |> You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but |> you0 |> can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ?  F Yes.  I can select all of the packages I want to install and then justG walk away.  The installs are totally unattended.  After answering aboutiG a dozen questions up front, the OS install is also totally unattended..    |> nI |> I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL's0A |> that could not just run for themselves and the majority of the  |> VMSINSTAL's |> can do that as well.   E But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeeF disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the case.U   bill   -- yJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:35:25 +0100V= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>e( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA7A6BC.2E18CE4B@gtech.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>, B >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:I > |> If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use anl7 > |> 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.  > K > Well, I haven't actually counted it all up, but I doubt there is anywhereaI > near that much on the LP disks.  They are just badly packaged.  And notiJ > in any logical order.  How many different CD's do you need to look at toI > load: COBOL, Fortran, PascaL, C, Ada.  And that's just compilers.  Even F > on the CD distribution of freeBSD all the compilers are on one disk.  E I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.aC They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.N  ) But that has very little to do with VMS !    K > |> I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL's C > |> that could not just run for themselves and the majority of thea > |> VMSINSTAL's > |> can do that as well.t > / > But you have to do each product individually.-   ????  4 What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=[] does ?  E OK - for VMSINSTAL you have to write a COM-file for each product, buts< writing 10-20 lines COM-files is not a major problem for me.   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 15:46:31 GMTo2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <9889gn$597@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  i In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:i >Bill Gunshannon wrote:cG >> Read my lips....  It is not easier to install software on a VMS than L >> it is on Unix.  It is only different.  There are more languages available >t >????p >rC >You claim that you have to switch LP CD's on VMS but not on Unix ?y >h >That is nonsense !?  J Actually, it isn't.  Because for Linux or netBSD you're probably going to F update over the network from an ftp or http server.  And that machine H probably wasn't loaded from CDs either but was mirrored from some other H site. And the main site (redhat, whatever) never loaded from CDs either.G So there's a very good chance that when you upgrade such a machine the l4 software involved will never have gone through a CD.  H This could be done on VMS too, but it would require that Compaq put the T software out on the net/web directly.  They do that with ECOs but not with the base 	 software.i   > E >If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use ani3 >18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.t  F OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often, " loaded over the net than from CDs.   >eF >You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but >you. >can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ? >rG >I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL's ? >that could not just run for themselves and the majority of thel! >VMSINSTAL's can do that as well.m  O Most VMINSTAL's ask you things.  You can usually set it to use defaults though.o  H This isn't to suggest that all is sweetness and light in the Unix/Linux G world.  I upgraded a file server a couple of weeks ago from RH 5.1->6.2 L and it was very difficult to keep it from wiping all the other disks in the K system.  In the end I had to go into the SCSI controller and hide 4 of the aG 5 disks to get it to do what I wanted.  There's also a problem in LinuxcH (and WNT) that devices are named sequentially as they are found at boot A time instead of by fixed location.  If you lose disk 2 out 5 then:K /dev/sdc->/dev/sdb, /dev/sdd->/dev/sdc, and /dev/sde->/dev/sdd.  There willaJ be no /dev/sde.  Apparently Linux kernel 2.4 has some sort of fixed deviceK name mechanism but the current kernels don't.  As things are now it can getmK very ugly in this situation when you loose a disk, much worse than on VMS. eI I lost one totally during a reboot to run badblocks, and ended up running D it on the wrong disk before I realized that the iffy device had just disappeared.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edum? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:54:47 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)-( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program0 Message-ID: <009F8B46.A7CB97DB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <9886ok$2222$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:4 >In article <djDsIzkdzeL8@eisner.encompasserve.org>,/ > kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:r >|> D >|> If you want to do it the hard way, be my guest, but don't use itD >|> as an example of how unix installs are better than VMS installs.D >|> I normally copy the installations from CD onto another media andC >|> then create answer files and have it all go in one, unattended,sC >|> swoop.  Zip the kits and answer files up and ship them to othereD >|> systems and do the same.  Quite easy, really.  I do that when it< >|> comes to doing a bulk patch install on multiple systems. >eD >But that's another whole set of things you need to do that I don't.B >And, I would still need to do sit there and swap disks to put allF >the necessary pieces on whatever media.  All this does is add anotherD >layer of comp[lexity which only pays off if you have a large numberH >of systems.  I have two.  And they don't share any common media format.   Bill,i  B All of the software you install can fit on a single CD?  Or is it A some other medium?  Perhaps, DVD?  I don't understand this "swap" @ disks argument.  I get software from many different sources. I'dA never expect their producers to collaborate and ship a singe dis- + tribution containing all I need to install.)   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             uO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:34:15 +0000s- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA7A677.B9E05078@bbc.co.uk>7   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,2B >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |>G > |> You claim that you have to switch LP CD's on VMS but not on Unix ?  > |> > |> That is nonsense !  > K > First, I can install all of the FreeBSD (my preference for Unix) packageslJ > from the net.  This means virtually unlimited media size to install fromL > and availability of current versions at all times.  A smaller, more static@ > subset of the most commonly used packages are available on CD.  	 See belown   >o >y > |>I > |> If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use ane7 > |> 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.l >oK > Well, I haven't actually counted it all up, but I doubt there is anywhere I > near that much on the LP disks.  They are just badly packaged.  And notJJ > in any logical order.  How many different CD's do you need to look at toI > load: COBOL, Fortran, PascaL, C, Ada.  And that's just compilers.  Even F > on the CD distribution of freeBSD all the compilers are on one disk. >m  H So, thats what Inforservers are for. Ah, Compaq don't sell them anymore. Shame.N I have done several VMS installs for CDRomless VMS boxes via Inforserver boot.    --s6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukl  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.i   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 09:15:53 -0700-1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)3( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <V1Otj68eaPmg@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  ) In article <3AA77FA4.DC9BA29@bbc.co.uk>, 12    Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: > N > Doesn''t the new program means that you don't have to buy a VMS base licenceB > for machines you have on DECCampus/CSLG?  Isn't that a positive?  D    I guess that depends on how fast and loose you're willing to playG with the terms of the license grant. Technically the license is grantediG to an individual and can only be used by that person or by "students insE a classroom under that individuals control". No institution I'm awaretG of works that way. It means I couldn't install the license on a machinehB and allow other staff or faculty to share that machine ( the termsC clearly only permit students ). Strictly speaking I shouldn't allow.A students to use it unless I'm in the room watching them. It's not B even entirely clear that it's legal to have multiple students on aB single machine under these terms, they *seem* to refer to multiple> students on multiple machines ( i.e. a lab full of single-user workstations ).V  C   Some folks claim to be using the license in ways contrary to this0= interpretation and they don't appear to be getting hassled byEE Compaq, but the bottom line is if I sign up for one of these licensesi@ the terms say I'm personally responsible for how it gets used. IB (and many other academic system managers) don't really want to putD my neck on the line over some specious interpretation of the license terms.  D   Compaq has been apprised of these concerns by me and others. TheirE silence on the matter suggests we haven't misunderstood their intent.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:36:13 +0000h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>g( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billa Gunshannon) wrote:    G >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,sG >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is.w  F I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSE is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give usy) the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.l  ) What we still need is marketing and apps.    >  >billB   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:40:36 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>2( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <gbdfat4sslbba6f85tjn744ko45a4oigdi@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billn Gunshannon) wrote:    F >But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeG >disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not thea >case.  B PCSI Install can install multiple products in one go. Not true forD VMSINSTAL but that's the old not the new. Future VMS layered product8 distributions will be available on one DVD as an option. >o >billp   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 01:28:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i  G > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to change H > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the > case.s  
 PROD INS *  C You are using the wrong CD :) Better, copy the kits to the root dircB of a scratch disk, and tweek the file names into dependancy order.  B What would be REALLY nioce would be a little auto-gen snippet thatA could be all extracted and appended together to feed autogen once. ( we hope...) before starting.     -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 13:13:18 -0500s9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)r( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <xJtxa2ADd3QB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <3AA7A6BC.2E18CE4B@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:f > Bill Gunshannon wrote:, >> In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,C >>  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: J >> |> If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use an8 >> |> 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it. >> eL >> Well, I haven't actually counted it all up, but I doubt there is anywhereJ >> near that much on the LP disks.  They are just badly packaged.  And notK >> in any logical order.  How many different CD's do you need to look at to J >> load: COBOL, Fortran, PascaL, C, Ada.  And that's just compilers.  EvenG >> on the CD distribution of freeBSD all the compilers are on one disk.. > G > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.sE > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.e  H My understanding is that they are grouped with the most popular productsK together.  Obviously one person's view of popular will differ from another.,  L >> |> I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL'sD >> |> that could not just run for themselves and the majority of the >> |> VMSINSTAL's  >> |> can do that as well. >> e0 >> But you have to do each product individually. >  > ???? > 6 > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=[] does ?  H It should even take a search list, so if you _do_ have lots of CD drives) no copying in advance would be necessary.y  E Bulk installation was one of the primary reasons for PRODUCT INSTALL.e  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 13:15:59 -050029 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)c( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <$AhEOXhqAYYA@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  a In article <9889gn$597@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:nk > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:   F >>If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use an4 >>18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it. > H > OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often, $ > loaded over the net than from CDs.  B VMS, on the other hand, has some portion of its constituency quiteA security conscious, including some government networks that wouldr, never _think_ of connecting to the Internet.  A Internally, however, that is what Infoservers (see eBay) are for.n   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:29:34 -0700a1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)t( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <LoK2bMOXUD7G@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  9 In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>, c)   Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:? > H > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSG > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us + > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.l  D    Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:52:28 GMTs8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)! Subject: Re: PROD Utility Failureo6 Message-ID: <0VNp6.20$S91.560@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  Y In article <3AA6D64D.4EE0ABB1@vmmc.org>, Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> writes:  >Problem resolved!  G >It was the issue with VMS$COMMON & SYSCOMMON directories being faulty.u   Glad the problem is resolved.t  J Probably t0he most common way to cause this problem is to backukp/restore 0 a system disk WITHOUT using the /IMAGE qualfier.  > Proceed carefully if you attempt to "repair" this system disk.  > You may (probably do) have a variety of problems to deal with.? Some of these may not be obvious, but may cause problems in theg: future, possibly when you next attempt to upgrade OpenVMS.I For example, you may have duplicate files in SYS$COMMON and SYS$SPECIFIC.cE The ones in SYS$SPECIFIC may or may not be current.  (N.B. Some files H do belong in SYS$SPECIFIC!)  This aplies to ALL SYS$SPECIFIC directories on a cluster system.  E For a production system I would generaly recommend either restoring aaD known good backup and then rolling everything forward, or rebuildingD the system disk from a new OpenVMS installation.  I know this soundsD like a lot of work -- and it is -- but it can save many headaches in
 the long run.e   -- tK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAsH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:20:08 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>  Subject: Re: Removing Ctl-M's , Message-ID: <3AA74EC8.C0180010@infopuls.com>   Karl Rohwedder wrote:u > % > Just a follow up, which might help:- > 1 > MODIFY is downloadble from the WKU archives at:[ > 3 >         ftp://ftp.wku.edu/vms/fileserv/MODIFY.ZIPl >  > Karl Rohwedder wrote:t > >05 > > If you habe the famous MODIFY utility just do a :r > > - > >         $ modify <files> /control "^M" ""0 > >: > > Acc. to the ZIP-Info:q > >iD > > MODIFY -- Modify ASCII text files (replace strings, detab, etc.)7 > > Written by Tom Worlton <worlton@anlpns.pns.anl.gov>c > >A, > > Runs on both OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS AXP > >h > > Chris wrote: > > >h > > > Dear all > > >uN > > > I have a series of files that have a ^M (ctrl-M) at the end of each lineN > > > rather than a <CR><LF> combo, in unix we have a unix-to-dos command, canP > > > someone give me a pointer on how we can do bulk file conversion under VMS? > > >i > > > -- > > >s > > > Chris Kempster BSc > >n > > -- > >f1 > > mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardse > >  > > Karl RohwedderF > > iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 BraunschweigE > > Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843aH > >  E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de/ > >          karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.dea" > > DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER >  > -- > / > mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardsr >  > Karl RohwedderD > iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 BraunschweigC > Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843uF >  E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de- >          karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.dei  > DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER  Wouldn't it be nice if there were a standard mechanism with standard syntax to iterate over a set of files? With UNIX the problem is that most shells expand the file spec argument (and sometimes other parts) which sometimes leads to command line overflow and other nasty effects. If on VMS there were a standard syntax mechanism to specify a set of files over which the program itself could iterate would be great.  AI never used pipeing on VMS. Is it possible to do a DIR /... and pipe the result as input to the MODIFY? Is there the same problem on VMS with pipeing as on UNIX that the programs behave differently when feeded its arguments by pipeing and that you can't decide to which argument the output of the preceding program goes?t   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 06:06 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e Subject: Re: Removing Ctl-M's , Message-ID: <8MAR200106064391@gerg.tamu.edu>  - Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes...dL }Wouldn't it be nice if there were a standard mechanism with standard syntaxJ }to iterate over a set of files? With UNIX the problem is that most shellsJ }expand the file spec argument (and sometimes other parts) which sometimesM }leads to command line overflow and other nasty effects. If on VMS there weretM }a standard syntax mechanism to specify a set of files over which the program % }itself could iterate would be great.v  D As long as we're doing "wouldn't it be nice", how about "wouldn't itH be nice if you hit the return key every 70 or so characters to break the0 line instead of only at the end of a paragraph?"  G VMS has such a standard - wildcarding. It is not difficult to have youreF program accept file specs using wildcards and then iterate through allH of them - just use the LIB$FIND_FILE routine (and LIB$FIND_FILE_END; or,G alternatively, you could try the the LIB$FILE_SCAN[_END] routines). TheiF problem is that few applications actually do this. I don't really know why more don't.t  J }I never used pipeing on VMS. Is it possible to do a DIR /... and pipe theE }result as input to the MODIFY? Is there the same problem on VMS with.H }pipeing as on UNIX that the programs behave differently when feeded itsF }arguments by pipeing and that you can't decide to which argument the & }output of the preceding program goes?  J There is no reason why you can't feed the results of a DIR to any program,F but the program would have to know what to do with it. Very few do. OnF VMS this is less useful (and not any easier to do) than just accepting< wildcards in file specs and skipping the DIR and pipe steps.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:55:48 -0500o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Removing Ctl-M's 3 Message-ID: <uVxMi4SCA+Pz@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  p In article <009F8A96.25E7E912@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > H > The question was how to delete ^Ms in a file.  There have been severalH > postings speculating that the file could be fixed by changing the fileH > attributes.  If the file is in the format that this poster wants it toD > be, changing the file attributes about will not solve the problem. >   F From other details in the original post, and from similar experiences,9 the question was assumed to have been asked in ignorance.-  H So we all told the poster how to fix the problem instead of how to carryD out a particualr fix.  Perhaps we should have clobbered him with the FAQ instead?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:45:05 GMTi" From: falk@arc.ab.ca (Alfred Falk) Subject: RWAST question 9 Message-ID: <Xns905E6332993D2falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>e  5 What sort of things cause a process to go into RWAST?    Here's the situation:cI    AlphaServer 800 5/500, 512MB, OVMS 7.2, Multinet 4.3 clustered DSSI/NI1%    This machine has only 4 functions:0       PMDF mail server%       Russell Calendar Manager servero	       DNS C       Advanced Server 7.2 (minimal usage, typically <3 connections)s  M When mail usage get very heavy (as during the recent Anna Kournicova attack)  K the Russell Calendar Server goes into RWAST.  It comes back eventually, but I not before a lot of clients get timed out, very much to the annoyance of eF users.  Process quotas for this server process appear to be more than 	 adequate.o  L I believe the physical resources are also adquate.  I suspect that there is L some global resource that get grabbed by the the PMDF server and crowds out C the RCM server.  If this makes sense, what should I be looking for?A  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca o@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road 1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadae http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4:  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:59:47 -03009) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brl Subject: Re: RWAST question L Message-ID: <OF0ADCA668.6BEDC6F2-ON03256A09.005D4C88@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  F You  are lucky because I must halt my system when appears a RWAST ....   Regards    FC        3 falk@arc.ab.ca (Alfred Falk) em 08/03/2001 13:45:05s             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt       Assunto: RWAST questionn    5 What sort of things cause a process to go into RWAST?s   Here's the situation:hI    AlphaServer 800 5/500, 512MB, OVMS 7.2, Multinet 4.3 clustered DSSI/NIe%    This machine has only 4 functions:        PMDF mail server%       Russell Calendar Manager servere	       DNSsC       Advanced Server 7.2 (minimal usage, typically <3 connections).  D When mail usage get very heavy (as during the recent Anna Kournicova attack)lK the Russell Calendar Server goes into RWAST.  It comes back eventually, buttH not before a lot of clients get timed out, very much to the annoyance ofE users.  Process quotas for this server process appear to be more thana	 adequate.i  K I believe the physical resources are also adquate.  I suspect that there istK some global resource that get grabbed by the the PMDF server and crowds out C the RCM server.  If this makes sense, what should I be looking for?i  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------@   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roadt1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadan http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4-  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------   Date: 08 Mar 2001 15:15:01 GMT From: ka2doug@cs.com (KA2DOUG)  Subject: Re: telnetsym lowercase> Message-ID: <20010308101501.01835.00000272@ng-cm1.news.cs.com>   >u >If you set the device /nospool:3 >can you set the terminal LTAn to be /nolowercase ? + >and then set the device as /spooled again?e >Phils  O No, the device LTA is set spooled, but it isn't associated with either the porteJ or the queue. This is a TELNET speaking print server and the LTA device isJ there simply to provide something for the print symbiont to "capture". TheK problem is that UCX's TNA device for reasons typical to the weakness of UCX-' doesn't allow itself to be set/spooled.0  M My question is:  How can I get the queue set to uppercase without it having aO device to query?  * >KA2DOUG <ka2doug@cs.com> wrote in message9 >news:20010307170729.06659.00000133@ng-ct1.news.cs.com...i >>   vms 6.2 ucx 4.2F >>   Previous posting:  Print server with TELNET and old line printer.	 >Programs F >> print directly to print device. Couldn't set TNA device spooled. As >suggested,h> >> created an LTAn port and set dev LTAn /spooled and init/queI >> /on=ip:port/proc=ucx$telnetsysm,  thus allowing me to open the LTA andr >print.t >>
 >> HOWEVER...l >>I >>  1. The printer is a B-600 with 64 character band (no lower case). The- >device-2 >> must be set /upper in order to print correctly.L >>  2. The queue shows "Lowercase" and I can find no way to change this. The >queueK >>  is not associated with a "setable" device, as it would be if we had LTAu >orn >> NTY.s >>/ >> Anyone know how I can overcome this problem?  >>	 >>  -Dougo >>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:15:12 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>n! Subject: Re: TELNETSYM monitoringe) Message-ID: <3AA785E0.85829181@bbc.co.uk>e  M Beware, I have some printers that only seem to be used at financial year end.e1 Wouldn't want to delete one of those by accident.a  M As Richard Gilbert noted, the accounting utility can be your friend here too, 1 as long as you keep the historic accouting files.c   Rob Buxton wrote:5  G > A crude method but generally indicative and one I used here to reduce 7 > the number of queues from a few hundred to around 50.o  > Set All the Queues to /Retain.G > As soon as entries appear on the Queues - remove the /Retain or maybel > set back to /retain=error. > Delete the retained entries.F > Leave for a while, as there may be the Users who use that particularA > Printer from the VMS System once a month  (or less frequently).5 >?G > I know it's not pretty but pretty quickly you'll know what Queues are 
 > being used.3 >7 > Rob. >F > >h- > >fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:e > >oN > >> I have more than 1200 queues in my OpenVMS servers but I really dont know
 > >> how many O > >> are really working, because the help desk people use to create  the queuesv > >> without5 > >> informing if it is a new queue or a moved queue.a > >>   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukd  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:42:35 -0500 3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)dR Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search	Engine...)3 Message-ID: <y8mS4CQJ54Tz@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  / In article <00256A00.004248D3.00@quegw01.btyp>,m& Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk writes:N > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza   > Really? Is that true?j >tM > It doesn't work like that in the UK, because many agencies thought it would M > disuade people from calling them [Childline, Samaritans, Rape Crisis, CrimeSJ > Stoppers etc] so do the respective US agencies not use freecall numbers? >a > Steve Spires  K Truth can be a relative thing.  I would recommend that you do some researchfE on telephone routing and billing systems.  There was quite a detailed=6 article on this in the old Radio Electronics magazine.  I Some of the privacy is in the fact that some of the companies involved do E not want to spend a great deal of time looking up the information for= essentially free.-  I Some kids here in the states found out the hard way what happens when younI make prank phone calls to emergency services.  The calls were taken quiteo
 seriously.   -Johnh wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlya   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:51:58 -0500u3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)ER Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search	Engine...)3 Message-ID: <N7nWqxitQ4YR@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  - In article <27FEB200107532261@gerg.tamu.edu>,o) carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:eI > There's a fundamental difference: in the US all local calls are "free".eI > (I.E. There is no time related charge, well not on normal home phones -u  H Not entirely true in all areas.  Some areas such as the one that I am in& now have "measured" service available.  I In this case you pay for each "message unit".  A message unit correspondsnL to a certain amount of time, and a certain distance from the phone company's office.p  I If you make less than a certain number of calls each month, it can be far  cheaper than unlimited service.m  5 Unlimited service is also not available in all areas.b   -Johnm wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyt   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 10:31:50 -0500s3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)wS Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search Engine ...)I3 Message-ID: <WadHhsYq8k0P@eisner.encompasserve.org>   0 In article <009F8411.F7AF7FCE@SendSpamHere.ORG>,? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:o >nI > You're asking the folks here to, in essence, do the same thing that the6I > telemarketteers do -- hide their identity.  Many of the telemarketteersoI > call with unavailable numbers which is worse than "private caller mask- G > ing".  I recently installed a new service on my phones called "calleruG > intercept" to deal with the incessant telemarketteers and the "DrunksuI > Against Mad Mothers" begging for funds.  If you call with a number thatAH > can not be identified, the phone company intercepts it.  The caller isG > required to answer with their name and phone number at a voice promptoI > that they are played.  Most -- if not all -- of the telemarketteers andsI > the DAMM money beggars simply hand up at this point.  It costs a littleu7 > to have the service but the silence is well worth it.i  L My personal Opinion is that I should not have to pay the phone company extraF for the service to allow me to identify or block those people that are' deliberately abusing the phone service.e  C At my last phone number I got rid of almost all of the out of stategC callers by explaining to them that the xxx prefix for my county wasS@ all pay phones, and that they had reached a bunch of them at theI bus stop.  They said that they would adjust their records, and apparently 	 they did.C  K The local callers for windows and siding, plus a few long distance servicespH that I have resolved never to use because of their calls, have seemed toN be more resistant.  Tennessee passed a law allowing phone abusers to be fined,I but the red-tape that you must process to actually report an abuser is son$ thick, that few will ever get fined.  H The water filtering people have never called me back since I told them IK was only concerned about hydrogen hydroxide in the water supply.  It can berH a dangerous substance and is very corrosive to most metals.  It has manyM other dangerous properties.  Last April, the county extension agent published ; an article about all of the dangers in the local newspaper.t   -John" wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:17:30 -0800r! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comsR Subject: Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search Engine...)D Message-ID: <OF9F49AB21.5611670B-ON88256A09.00645502@foundation.com>  J Assuming you're in the US Bill, try telling callers "please put me on yourK don't call list". Phone sales companies have to keep a list of people /not/oK to call, and you stay on for a year. I can tell you from experience that it A works. I've only had one sales call in the last six months or so.h   Shanee          G malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) on 03/08/2001 07:31:50 AMb   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh cc:   H Subject:  Re: US telephone vote on SPAM in comp.os.vms (was: High Search       Engine ...)d    0 In article <009F8411.F7AF7FCE@SendSpamHere.ORG>,? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:8 >:I > You're asking the folks here to, in essence, do the same thing that the I > telemarketteers do -- hide their identity.  Many of the telemarketteers1I > call with unavailable numbers which is worse than "private caller mask-/G > ing".  I recently installed a new service on my phones called "callerlG > intercept" to deal with the incessant telemarketteers and the "Drunks8I > Against Mad Mothers" begging for funds.  If you call with a number thattH > can not be identified, the phone company intercepts it.  The caller isG > required to answer with their name and phone number at a voice promptTI > that they are played.  Most -- if not all -- of the telemarketteers andeI > the DAMM money beggars simply hand up at this point.  It costs a littleT7 > to have the service but the silence is well worth it.   F My personal Opinion is that I should not have to pay the phone company extra F for the service to allow me to identify or block those people that are' deliberately abusing the phone service.n  C At my last phone number I got rid of almost all of the out of staterC callers by explaining to them that the xxx prefix for my county wasn@ all pay phones, and that they had reached a bunch of them at theI bus stop.  They said that they would adjust their records, and apparently 	 they did.c  K The local callers for windows and siding, plus a few long distance servicescH that I have resolved never to use because of their calls, have seemed toG be more resistant.  Tennessee passed a law allowing phone abusers to bei fined,I but the red-tape that you must process to actually report an abuser is so.$ thick, that few will ever get fined.  H The water filtering people have never called me back since I told them IK was only concerned about hydrogen hydroxide in the water supply.  It can be H a dangerous substance and is very corrosive to most metals.  It has manyC other dangerous properties.  Last April, the county extension agente	 published>; an article about all of the dangers in the local newspaper.l   -Johnn wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only,   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:54:20 -0000>- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)eD Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?/ Message-ID: <tafe9s6sjasl9b@news.supernews.com>.  ) dsf@frontiernet.net (Dan Foster) wrote inw- <984nm6$lnq$1@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>: l   >Howdy -B >     I'm immensely curious what it is about VMS 7.2 such that the >     install : >requires MACRO32.EXE in order to build standalone BACKUP? >s >     This is according to:  >jJ >     http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6521/6521pro.html#macro_b
 >     ack  >  >-DanQ  E We just installed Enterprise Toolkit here on one of our Alphas.  The wH installation failed, because Macro-32 was not installed on the box.  It I seems some products assume that Macros-32 is always installed - which is a not alway the case.e  K The collateral damage was even worse. We booted from CD to run the OpenVMS dK installation again (this time including Macro-32), and then spent hours re-pG applying patch kits, since it over-wrote the OpenVMS base installation   itself!p   ws     -- a1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>d   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **s   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 23:31:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: What monitor and keyboad will work with dec3000/400- Message-ID: <87n1aws2ev.fsf@prep.synonet.com>r  / gary prarat <g.prarat@worldnet.att.net> writes:s  C > Thanks all for help. I finally acquired a vrt-19A monitor and theh5 > special keyboard, mouse and cables that go with it.-  E > Among other issues that I am working on, the display on the monitoreF > appears to be reduced to about the size of a 17" screen and the leftC > side is truncated cutting off 2 or 3 characters. Does anyone knownA > how to fix this. I have fiddled with the controls and dont find6 > anything that fixes this..  D What vidio board are you using? You may have the wrong freq set. Oh," and what dash number on the VRT19?   -- E< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.h@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:03:01 +0100s= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>a, Subject: Re: [Q] checksum$checksum algorithm( Message-ID: <3AA774F5.8F46501@gtech.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:aQ > What is the probability to have two different files with the same (unsupported)l > checksum?- >  > Reminder:- >  > $ checksum toto.txt: > $ sh symb checksum$checksumc$ >   CHECKSUM$CHECKSUM = "1914540957"  C It returns a 32 bit integer, so if the algoirthm is sufficient goodn, the the probability should be 1 out of 2^32.   Arne   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.134 ************************