1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 09 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 135       Contents:O %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device forthis function P Re: %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device forthis functP Re: %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC,64-bit address not supported by device forthis functi. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.. Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. Alpha Diamond Forums Re: Alpha Diamond Forums Re: Alpha Diamond ForumsP Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global  logica, RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost blade vs. DS10 on "mybenchmark"  CETS-2001 Graphics" Command procedure for opening port& Re: Command procedure for opening port? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot ? Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot ) Re: CPU serial number on AlphaStation 400  Re: CSWS CGI problem Re: CSWS CGI problem' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN  Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: LDAP Client for OpenVMS ?  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  Re: NFS and ODS-5 $ Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire) Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program P Re: OpenVMS Educational Program [was Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract ...! Re: Oracle/OVMS7.1 Memory tuning?  Prolonged power shutdown issues # Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues 9 Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues (HSJ/HSZ Controllers) 9 RE: Prolonged power shutdown issues (HSJ/HSZ Controllers)  Re: RWAST question< The ANY key - Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask.; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? ; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:11:13 -0500   From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.milX Subject: %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device forthis function0 Message-ID: <01030814111311@beast.dtsw.army.mil>   Hello,  : AlphaServer 4000 5/400 4MB VMS  V7.1-1H1    DEC C V5.6-003  C I want to read a file by file id from an ISO 9660 CD-ROM. I found a F MACRO segment that gets the file name and specification using the file id.   J When I try it in DECC, I get a "%SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not' supported by device for this function."   D Does anyone have a C example of using QIO and only 32 bit addresses?0 What is there in my C code that makes it 64 bit?  ' Thank you for any help you can provide,   : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919 ; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919 5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094    $ copy create fileid.mar'     .Title GetFileNameUsingFileIDAcpQio K         $fibdef                               ; File Information Block defs D         $atrdef                               ; Attribute block defs'         .macro       check_status,?dest I         blbs         r0,dest                  ; If successful then return @         jmp          error                    ; Handle the error! dest:   .endm        check_status  	.psect	data,noexe         .title       filename E fib_block:                                    ; Reserve space for FIB H         .blkb        fib$k_length             ; Length defined by symbolF fib_descr:                                    ; Descriptor to describe?                                               ; location of FIB !         .long        fib$k_length ;         .long        fib_block                ; FIB pointer E attr_ctrl_blk:                                ; Attribute Cntrl Block 4         .word        atr$s_ascname            ; Size4         .word        atr$c_ascname            ; Type7         .address     filenam                  ; Address 4         .word        atr$s_file_spec          ; Size4         .word        atr$c_file_spec          ; Type7         .address     sfilenam                 ; Address I         .long        0                        ; End the Attribute Control 5                                               ; Block G filenam_desc:                                 ; Descriptor for Filename 6         .word        atr$s_ascname            ; Length4         .word        0                        ; TypeA         .address     filenam                  ; Address of buffer  filenam:G         .blkb        atr$s_ascname+1          ; Buffer to hold Filename   G sfilenam_desc:                                ; Descriptor for Filespec 6         .word        atr$s_file_spec          ; Length4         .word        0                        ; TypeA         .address     sfilenam                 ; Address of buffer 	 sfilenam: G         .blkb        atr$s_file_spec+1        ; Buffer to hold Filespec   @ iosb:                                         ; I/O Status Block;                                               ; for ACP QIO 6         .blkw        1                        ; Status5         .blkw        1                        ; Count K         .blkl        1                        ; Device Specific Information  device_channel: K         .blkw        1                        ; Buffer for Device Channel # J device_desc:                                  ; Descriptor for Device Name6         .word        7                        ; Length4         .word        0                        ; TypeA         .address     dev_nam                  ; Address of buffer  dev_nam:I         .ascii       /dka500:/               ; Buffer holding Device name 	 file_num: C         .word        4                        ; file number - 65536 
 file_seq_num: D         .word        23                       ; File Sequence Number rel_vol_num:F         .byte        0                        ; Relative Volume NumberI                                               ; Relative Volume Number is ?                                               ; is a BYTE value E file_nmx:                                     ; File number extension D 	.byte        0                        ; integer of filenumber/65536   	.psect	code           .entry       prog,^m<>I         $assign_s    devnam = device_desc,-   ; Get Channel # for ACP QIO ,                      chan   = device_channelB         check_status                          ; Check Status in r0C         movw         file_num,-               ; Store File # in FIB ,                      fib_block+fib$w_fid_numG         movw         file_seq_num,-           ; Store File Seq # in FIB ,                      fib_block+fib$w_fid_seqM         movw         rel_vol_num,-            ; Store Relative Vol number and L                      fib_block+fib$w_fid_rvn  ; file number extension in FIBB ; Issue ACP QIO to access file and obtain information requested inC ;     attribute control block for file described in FIB descriptor. .         $qiow_s      chan   = device_channel,-8                      func   = #io$_access!io$m_access,,-$                      iosb   = iosb,-)                      p1     = fib_descr,- ,                      p5     = #attr_ctrl_blkB         check_status                          ; Check Status in r0!         pushal       filenam_desc C         calls        #1,g^lib$put_output      ; Print the File Name "         pushal       sfilenam_descC         calls        #1,g^lib$put_output      ; Print the File spec  error:  $exit_s      r0          .end         prog  $ create fileid.c ! #pragma  required_pointer_size 32    #undef __NEW_STARLET   #include descrip #include iodef #include iodef #include fibdef O #include atrdef     /* SYS$COMMON:[DECC$LIB.REFERENCE.SYS$STARLET_C]ATRDEF.H */  #include rms #include string  #include stdlib  #include stdio #include lib$routines  #include starlet   typedef struct {    unsigned short int status; 
    union {       struct {G          unsigned char transmit, receive, crfill, lffill, parity, zero;        } trclpz;        struct {3          unsigned short int speeds, fills, parityw;        } sfp;       struct {8          unsigned short int termoff, termchar, termsize;       } ocs;       struct {%          unsigned short int mbxbytes; %          unsigned long int senderpid;        } mbx;
    } tsom; } IOSTATBLOCK;  % #define ERROR_MSG    fprintf( stderr,   7 #define BLOCK_SIZE   512   /* size of one disk block */ 5 #define DEVNAM_SIZE  255   /* size of max filespec */   * unsigned int main( int argc, char *argv[]) {        static struct fibdef fib;       static struct atrdef atr[3];       IOSTATBLOCK dev_iosb; (     short int channel, fnum, fseq, frvn;     unsigned long int status;   &     struct dsc$descriptor_s fib_descr;(     struct dsc$descriptor_s devnam_desc;&     char devnam_buffer[DEVNAM_SIZE+1];#     char filename[ATR$S_ASCNAME+1]; %     char filespec[ATR$S_FILE_SPEC+1];        if( argc != 5) {C         ERROR_MSG "Usage: file_id <device> <fnum> <fseq> <fvn>\n");          exit( EXIT_FAILURE);     }   ,     devnam_desc.dsc$b_dtype = DSC$K_DTYPE_T;,     devnam_desc.dsc$b_class = DSC$K_CLASS_S;.     devnam_desc.dsc$a_pointer = devnam_buffer;  (     devnam_buffer[DEVNAM_SIZE+1] = '\0';2     strncpy( devnam_buffer, argv[1], DEVNAM_SIZE);B     devnam_desc.dsc$w_length = (short int) strlen( devnam_buffer);  "     /* Assign a channel to disk */     status = sys$assign(  8         &devnam_desc,  /* disk device name descriptor */7         &channel,      /* disk device channel number */ 0         0,             /* default access mode */'         0);            /* no mailbox */      if( (status & 1) == 0) {.         ERROR_MSG "Error in assign status\n");         lib$stop( status);     }        fnum = atoi( argv[2]);     fseq = atoi( argv[3]);     frvn = atoi( argv[4]);       fib.fib$w_fid_num = fnum;      fib.fib$w_fid_seq = fseq;      fib.fib$w_fid_rvn = frvn;   *     fib_descr.dsc$w_length = FIB$K_LENGTH;*     fib_descr.dsc$b_dtype = DSC$K_DTYPE_T;*     fib_descr.dsc$b_class = DSC$K_CLASS_S;,     fib_descr.dsc$a_pointer = (char *) &fib;  &     atr[0].atr$w_size = ATR$S_ASCNAME;&     atr[0].atr$w_type = ATR$C_ASCNAME;"     atr[0].atr$l_addr = &filename;(     atr[1].atr$w_size = ATR$S_FILE_SPEC;(     atr[1].atr$w_type = ATR$C_FILE_SPEC;"     atr[1].atr$l_addr = &filespec;     atr[2].atr$w_size = 0;     atr[2].atr$w_type = 0;       status = sys$qiow(L         0,                      /* Default event flag #, OK for synch I/O */2         channel,                /* Disk channel */>         IO$_ACCESS|IO$M_ACCESS, /* Access file and get info */6         &dev_iosb,              /* I/O Status Block */?         0,                      /* No AST completion routine */ 5         0,                      /*   or parameters */ A         fib_descr,              /* P1 = fib descriptor address */ .         0, 0, 0,                /* No P2-P4 */B         &atr,                   /* P5 = attribute control block */+         0);                     /* No P6 */      if( (status & 1) == 0) {A         ERROR_MSG "Error in io$access, status: %8.8X\n", status);          lib$stop( status);     } %     if( (dev_iosb.status & 1) == 0) { =         ERROR_MSG "Error in io$access, iosb.status: %8.8X\n",              dev_iosb.status); #         lib$stop( dev_iosb.status);      }   3     printf( "Filename(%d)>%s<\nFilespec(%d)>%s<\n", $         strlen( filename), filename,%         strlen( filespec), filespec);   "     /* Deassign channel to disk */"     status = sys$dassgn( channel);     if( (status & 1) == 0) {0         ERROR_MSG "Error in deassign status\n");         lib$stop( status);     }  } B $ fid = "$" + f$parse( "FILEID",,f$environment( "DEFAULT")+".EXE") $ macro/migr fileid.mar 
 $ link fileid  $ fid 	 ID.CTL;1   _BEAST$DKA500:[000000]ID.CTL;1
 $ cc fileid.c 
 $ link fileid  $ fid dka500 4 23 0 $ Error in io$access, status: 000026C4P %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device for this function/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows P   image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC      O  FILEID  FILEID  main                   26810 0000000000000310 0000000000020310 O  FILEID  FILEID  __main                     0 000000000000006C 000000000002006C O                                             0 FFFFFFFF88C850F8 FFFFFFFF88C850F8    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:44:02 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) Y Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device forthis funct 0 Message-ID: <009F8B6F.0FF2A612@SendSpamHere.ORG>  S In article <01030814111311@beast.dtsw.army.mil>, jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil writes:  >Hello,  > ; >AlphaServer 4000 5/400 4MB VMS  V7.1-1H1    DEC C V5.6-003  > D >I want to read a file by file id from an ISO 9660 CD-ROM. I found aG >MACRO segment that gets the file name and specification using the file  >id. > K >When I try it in DECC, I get a "%SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not ( >supported by device for this function." > E >Does anyone have a C example of using QIO and only 32 bit addresses? 1 >What is there in my C code that makes it 64 bit?  > ( >Thank you for any help you can provide, > ; >Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com 6 >TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919< >2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x19196 >Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094 >  >$ copy create fileid.mar ( >    .Title GetFileNameUsingFileIDAcpQioL >        $fibdef                               ; File Information Block defsE >        $atrdef                               ; Attribute block defs ( >        .macro       check_status,?destJ >        blbs         r0,dest                  ; If successful then returnA >        jmp          error                    ; Handle the error " >dest:   .endm        check_status >	.psect	data,noexe  >        .title       filenameF >fib_block:                                    ; Reserve space for FIBI >        .blkb        fib$k_length             ; Length defined by symbol G >fib_descr:                                    ; Descriptor to describe @ >                                              ; location of FIB" >        .long        fib$k_length< >        .long        fib_block                ; FIB pointerF >attr_ctrl_blk:                                ; Attribute Cntrl Block5 >        .word        atr$s_ascname            ; Sizes5 >        .word        atr$c_ascname            ; Type-8 >        .address     filenam                  ; Address5 >        .word        atr$s_file_spec          ; Sizeo5 >        .word        atr$c_file_spec          ; Typet8 >        .address     sfilenam                 ; AddressJ >        .long        0                        ; End the Attribute Control6 >                                              ; BlockH >filenam_desc:                                 ; Descriptor for Filename7 >        .word        atr$s_ascname            ; Length05 >        .word        0                        ; TypemB >        .address     filenam                  ; Address of buffer	 >filenam:uH >        .blkb        atr$s_ascname+1          ; Buffer to hold Filename >bH >sfilenam_desc:                                ; Descriptor for Filespec7 >        .word        atr$s_file_spec          ; Lengthe5 >        .word        0                        ; TypeCB >        .address     sfilenam                 ; Address of buffer
 >sfilenam:H >        .blkb        atr$s_file_spec+1        ; Buffer to hold Filespec >OA >iosb:                                         ; I/O Status BlockT< >                                              ; for ACP QIO7 >        .blkw        1                        ; Statuse6 >        .blkw        1                        ; CountL >        .blkl        1                        ; Device Specific Information >device_channel:L >        .blkw        1                        ; Buffer for Device Channel #K >device_desc:                                  ; Descriptor for Device Namei7 >        .word        7                        ; Lengthn5 >        .word        0                        ; TypenB >        .address     dev_nam                  ; Address of buffer	 >dev_nam:aJ >        .ascii       /dka500:/               ; Buffer holding Device name
 >file_num:D >        .word        4                        ; file number - 65536 >file_seq_num:E >        .word        23                       ; File Sequence Numberd
 >rel_vol_num:aG >        .byte        0                        ; Relative Volume NumbereJ >                                              ; Relative Volume Number is@ >                                              ; is a BYTE valueF >file_nmx:                                     ; File number extensionE >	.byte        0                        ; integer of filenumber/65536c >o
 >	.psect	codee >p >        .entry       prog,^m<>pJ >        $assign_s    devnam = device_desc,-   ; Get Channel # for ACP QIO- >                     chan   = device_channelgC >        check_status                          ; Check Status in r0aD >        movw         file_num,-               ; Store File # in FIB- >                     fib_block+fib$w_fid_num H >        movw         file_seq_num,-           ; Store File Seq # in FIB- >                     fib_block+fib$w_fid_seqnN >        movw         rel_vol_num,-            ; Store Relative Vol number andM >                     fib_block+fib$w_fid_rvn  ; file number extension in FIB C >; Issue ACP QIO to access file and obtain information requested inCD >;     attribute control block for file described in FIB descriptor./ >        $qiow_s      chan   = device_channel,-u9 >                     func   = #io$_access!io$m_access,,-e% >                     iosb   = iosb,- * >                     p1     = fib_descr,-- >                     p5     = #attr_ctrl_blkMC >        check_status                          ; Check Status in r0f" >        pushal       filenam_descD >        calls        #1,g^lib$put_output      ; Print the File Name# >        pushal       sfilenam_desc-D >        calls        #1,g^lib$put_output      ; Print the File spec >error:  $exit_s      r0 >        .end         prog >$ create fileid.c" >#pragma  required_pointer_size 32 >e >#undef __NEW_STARLET1 >e >#include descrip  >#include iodefS >#include iodef4 >#include fibdefP >#include atrdef     /* SYS$COMMON:[DECC$LIB.REFERENCE.SYS$STARLET_C]ATRDEF.H */
 >#include rmse >#include string >#include stdlib >#include stdio  >#include lib$routines >#include starletg >a >typedef struct {V >   unsigned short int status; >   union {  >      struct {.H >         unsigned char transmit, receive, crfill, lffill, parity, zero; >      } trclpz; >      struct {a4 >         unsigned short int speeds, fills, parityw;
 >      } sfp;s >      struct { 9 >         unsigned short int termoff, termchar, termsize;s
 >      } ocs;4 >      struct {4& >         unsigned short int mbxbytes;& >         unsigned long int senderpid;
 >      } mbx;x >   } tsom;9 >} IOSTATBLOCK;t >i& >#define ERROR_MSG    fprintf( stderr, >A8 >#define BLOCK_SIZE   512   /* size of one disk block */6 >#define DEVNAM_SIZE  255   /* size of max filespec */ > + >unsigned int main( int argc, char *argv[])  >{ >  >    static struct fibdef fib;! >    static struct atrdef atr[3];  >  >    IOSTATBLOCK dev_iosb;) >    short int channel, fnum, fseq, frvn;  >    unsigned long int status; >d' >    struct dsc$descriptor_s fib_descr;e) >    struct dsc$descriptor_s devnam_desc;:' >    char devnam_buffer[DEVNAM_SIZE+1];e$ >    char filename[ATR$S_ASCNAME+1];& >    char filespec[ATR$S_FILE_SPEC+1]; >d >    if( argc != 5) { D >        ERROR_MSG "Usage: file_id <device> <fnum> <fseq> <fvn>\n"); >        exit( EXIT_FAILURE);  >    } >i- >    devnam_desc.dsc$b_dtype = DSC$K_DTYPE_T; - >    devnam_desc.dsc$b_class = DSC$K_CLASS_S; / >    devnam_desc.dsc$a_pointer = devnam_buffer;  > ) >    devnam_buffer[DEVNAM_SIZE+1] = '\0';r3 >    strncpy( devnam_buffer, argv[1], DEVNAM_SIZE);rC >    devnam_desc.dsc$w_length = (short int) strlen( devnam_buffer);m > # >    /* Assign a channel to disk */r >    status = sys$assign( 9 >        &devnam_desc,  /* disk device name descriptor */ 8 >        &channel,      /* disk device channel number */1 >        0,             /* default access mode */ ( >        0);            /* no mailbox */ >    if( (status & 1) == 0) { / >        ERROR_MSG "Error in assign status\n");  >        lib$stop( status);l >    } >  >    fnum = atoi( argv[2]);e >    fseq = atoi( argv[3]);  >    frvn = atoi( argv[4]);  >  >    fib.fib$w_fid_num = fnum; >    fib.fib$w_fid_seq = fseq; >    fib.fib$w_fid_rvn = frvn; >b+ >    fib_descr.dsc$w_length = FIB$K_LENGTH;t+ >    fib_descr.dsc$b_dtype = DSC$K_DTYPE_T; + >    fib_descr.dsc$b_class = DSC$K_CLASS_S; - >    fib_descr.dsc$a_pointer = (char *) &fib;  >e' >    atr[0].atr$w_size = ATR$S_ASCNAME; ' >    atr[0].atr$w_type = ATR$C_ASCNAME;i# >    atr[0].atr$l_addr = &filename;f) >    atr[1].atr$w_size = ATR$S_FILE_SPEC;s) >    atr[1].atr$w_type = ATR$C_FILE_SPEC;e# >    atr[1].atr$l_addr = &filespec;  >    atr[2].atr$w_size = 0;o >    atr[2].atr$w_type = 0;  >  >    status = sys$qiow( M >        0,                      /* Default event flag #, OK for synch I/O */ 3 >        channel,                /* Disk channel */ ? >        IO$_ACCESS|IO$M_ACCESS, /* Access file and get info */i7 >        &dev_iosb,              /* I/O Status Block */ @ >        0,                      /* No AST completion routine */6 >        0,                      /*   or parameters */B >        fib_descr,              /* P1 = fib descriptor address */  E How sure are you that you are passing the address of 'fib_descr'?  ;)   / >        0, 0, 0,                /* No P2-P4 */ C >        &atr,                   /* P5 = attribute control block */ , >        0);                     /* No P6 */ >    if( (status & 1) == 0) {qB >        ERROR_MSG "Error in io$access, status: %8.8X\n", status); >        lib$stop( status);  >    }& >    if( (dev_iosb.status & 1) == 0) {> >        ERROR_MSG "Error in io$access, iosb.status: %8.8X\n", >            dev_iosb.status);$ >        lib$stop( dev_iosb.status); >    } >a4 >    printf( "Filename(%d)>%s<\nFilespec(%d)>%s<\n",% >        strlen( filename), filename, & >        strlen( filespec), filespec); > # >    /* Deassign channel to disk */ # >    status = sys$dassgn( channel);  >    if( (status & 1) == 0) {s1 >        ERROR_MSG "Error in deassign status\n");  >        lib$stop( status);  >    } >}C >$ fid = "$" + f$parse( "FILEID",,f$environment( "DEFAULT")+".EXE")  >$ macro/migr fileid.mar >$ link fileid >$ fid I
 >ID.CTL;1  >_BEAST$DKA500:[000000]ID.CTL;1n >$ cc fileid.c >$ link fileid >$ fid dka500 4 23 0% >Error in io$access, status: 000026C4 Q >%SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC, 64-bit address not supported by device for this function 0 >%TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump followsQ >  image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC      eP > FILEID  FILEID  main                   26810 0000000000000310 0000000000020310P > FILEID  FILEID  __main                     0 000000000000006C 000000000002006CP >                                            0 FFFFFFFF88C850F8 FFFFFFFF88C850F8 >- --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMl             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.f   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:37:34 +0200 (MET) 1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> Y Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-NOT64DEVFUNC,64-bit address not supported by device forthis functie3 Message-ID: <01K0YW3G4AMY9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>e  F I notice that the HELP/MESSAGE text is longer than usual for this one:     ?  NOT64DEVFUNC,  64-bit address not supported by device for thisO                 function  R'   Facility:     SYSTEM, System Servicese  rJ   Explanation:  This fatal error can be returned under several conditions:                 L                 o The $QIO and $QIOW system services return this error under8                   either of the following circumstances:                 I                   -  The caller has specified a 64-bit virtual address in L                      the P1 device-dependent parameter but the device driverM                      does not support 64-bit addresses with the requested I/O                       function.                 D                   -  The caller has specified a 64-bit address for aM                      diagnostic buffer but the device driver does not supportS=                      64-bit addresses for diagnostic buffers.t                 L                 o Some device drivers might return this condition value whenL                   64-bit buffer addresses are passed using the P2 through P6M                   parameters and the driver does not support a 64-bit addressc2                   with the requested I/O function.                 K                 o In the case of RMS service calls, the buffer used for the L                   QIO request is generally an RMS intermediate buffer ratherG                   than a user buffer. There are two exceptions when the$J                   QIO transfer is made directly to or from the user buffer'                   specified in the RAB:;                 I                   -  Record I/O: RMS service $PUT to a unit record deviceE(                      (user's RBF buffer)                 M                   -  Block I/O: RMS service $READ (user's UBF buffer) and RMS 7                      service $WRITE (user's RBF buffer)                  J                   In either of these cases, if a 64-bit virtual address isG                   specified for the user's buffer but the device driver)J                   does not support 64-bit addresses with the requested I/OM                   function, RMS returns RMS-F-SYS (QIO system service request L                   failed) as the RMS error status (STS) in the RAB, with theK                   system error status (NOT64DEVFUNC) returned as the statusB)                   value (STV) in the RAB.$                   eG   User Action:  Consult the specific device driver documentation or the&L                 OpenVMS Alpha Guide to 64-Bit Addressing and VLM Features toN                 determine which I/O functions and device drivers can support aN                 64-bit buffer address. If the combination of the device driverL                 and I/O function that you are using does not permit a 64-bitL                 buffer address, use a buffer within a 32-bit virtual addressJ                 space for the $QIO and copy the data to or from the buffer4                 that is in the 64-bit address space.                 M                 If this error is returned by an RMS service, a 32-bit virtualpJ                 address should be specified in the RAB for the user buffer.                 associated with the operation.  t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:08:32 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 0 Message-ID: <009F8B61.B87B8C80@SendSpamHere.ORG>  h In article <OFFD6000D8.10C61535-ON88256A09.0065579E@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes:- >On 12 Adar 5761, Brian Schenkenberger wrote:s ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ?? 0 What is this?  What ever happened to star dates?   >u >>>> >Do you have a Mac? >>>>
 >>>> No. Why?F >>>e4 >>>The KB power key seems a perfect place for 'ANY'. >>D >> A Mac has a keyboard key for power?  How stupid.  My cat would be1 >> turning the machine on and off all night long.a > H >That's easily fixed. Shoot the cat. (I hate cats with a passion you can >only dream of.)  D I loathe a certain schmuckhead too.  I'll let you shoot the cat if I can get him to hold it.  :)a   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.U   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu,  8 Mar 01 18:49:40 GMTT From: heimann@ecs.umass.edu 7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. , Message-ID: <989nfi$kva$1@odo.ecs.umass.edu>  / In Article <009F8A8B.14402962@SendSpamHere.ORG>0? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:0] >In article <87itll93z5.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:8A >>system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:0 >>` >>> In article <8766hmhgtf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:D >>> >system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: >>> > K >>> >> I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, I3K >>> >> will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.AM >>> >> The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?  >>> >b >>> >Do you have a Mac?0 >>>  >>> No. Why? >>3 >>The KB power key seems a perfect place for 'ANY'.u >gJ >A Mac has a keyboard key for power?  How stupid.  My cat would be turning' >the machine on and off all night long.i  I Yes, a standard ADB Mac keyboard has a power key.  Some have it set flushlJ with the top of the keyboard to make it harder to press accidentally, likeH when the pile of papers on a desk falls over.  Your cat might turn a MacJ on, but turning off requires the Enter key be pressed after the power key.G That is at least better than the power key on the keyboards of some Sun9I Ultra 5 and Ultra 10 workstations here.  As they showed up, just pressingaG the power key would start a instant shutdown on a running machine.  ThefH students working on them with manuals, books and papers scattered aroundI were constantly hitting the key and turning of several in a computer lab.    Joe Heimannt   heimann@ecs.umass.edu    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:59:17 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: Alpha Diamond Forumst7 Message-ID: <QoSp6.31$S91.1130@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>e   Dear Newsgroup,   K On March 20th (Rocky Hill CT) and 21st (Waltham, MA) there will be a Compaq$E AlphaServer Diamond Forum, please see attached for details. These are @ executive level events where futures and strategy are discussed.1 http://38.159.189.203/compaq/eventinfo.asp?ID=161   (  (URL works from Netscape and Explorer).  I If you have been to an OpenVMS Diamond Forum this is similar but also has  Alpha and Tru64 content.  G This is not a technical event and would be a good one to encourage yours management to attend.   
 Warm Regards,    Sue;   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:30:07 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> ! Subject: Re: Alpha Diamond Forums 8 Message-ID: <98915g$5dv$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  H Thanks Sue.  Does this Forum make its way to other parts of the country?   Dave...r  = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messagen1 news:QoSp6.31$S91.1130@gazette.loc1.tandem.com...o > Dear Newsgroup,  > F > On March 20th (Rocky Hill CT) and 21st (Waltham, MA) there will be a CompaqG > AlphaServer Diamond Forum, please see attached for details. These are;B > executive level events where futures and strategy are discussed.3 > http://38.159.189.203/compaq/eventinfo.asp?ID=161e > * >  (URL works from Netscape and Explorer). > K > If you have been to an OpenVMS Diamond Forum this is similar but also has. > Alpha and Tru64 content. > I > This is not a technical event and would be a good one to encourage youru > management to attend.  >l > Warm Regards,i >s > Sue  >  >B >e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:01:03 GMTI4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>! Subject: Re: Alpha Diamond Forums.< Message-ID: <PaUp6.1609$G76.2292071@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message 1 news:QoSp6.31$S91.1130@gazette.loc1.tandem.com...n > Dear Newsgroup,  > F > On March 20th (Rocky Hill CT) and 21st (Waltham, MA) there will be a CompaqG > AlphaServer Diamond Forum, please see attached for details. These are B > executive level events where futures and strategy are discussed.3 > http://38.159.189.203/compaq/eventinfo.asp?ID=161. >r* >  (URL works from Netscape and Explorer). >uK > If you have been to an OpenVMS Diamond Forum this is similar but also hasi > Alpha and Tru64 content. > I > This is not a technical event and would be a good one to encourage your_ > management to attend.  >3  I If these events are as good as the one in New York City back in December,eJ they are WELL worth attending. (And yes, I'd say the same thing even if myE good friend Charlie Matco wasn't speaking at the events). The morning F sessions are Alpha-centric; there are separate VMS and Tru64 afternoon tracks.    Charlie will see ya there.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:19:18 GMTm/ From: "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net>rY Subject: Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global  logicaQA Message-ID: <akVp6.213$8c.7507@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net>s  G I think this will do what you ask.  I'm sure there are at least a dozen  otherm ways to do the same thing...  # $ define/proc test dka100:[simpson]c $ x=f$trnlnm("TEST") $ show symbol x    X = "DKA100:[SIMPSON]". $ y = x-"]"+".tools]"  ! to build new dir name $ show symbol yi   Y = "DKA100:[SIMPSON.tools]" $ define/proc test 'x','y'< %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of TEST has been superseded $ show log testl2    "TEST" = "DKA100:[SIMPSON]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)"         = "DKA100:[SIMPSON.TOOLS]"   Regards, Toma  ? "Andrew G Scott" <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> wrote in message & news:3AA7AB5C.B2EE0A6A@jpmorgan.com...E > I want to extend the value of a logical, which is set up in a group 4 > login.com file, by referring to the logical again. > # > In Unix I would do this like his:  >5' > PATH=/home/my_home/an_extra_dir:$PATHa > # > How do I achieve the same in VMS?u >nJ > I HAVE achieved it but the outcome is not what I expected or understand. > The line in my login.com is: > " > $ define/nolog          mosource/ > MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],-;2 >                                         MOSOURCE >  >nF > But "sho log mosource" gives: (Note that AN_EXTRA_DIR doesn't appearJ > because I just added it to the above command for illustrative purposes.) >  >e > F >    "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 1  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 2  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 3  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 4  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 5  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 6  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 7  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 8  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"F > 9  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >         = "MOSOURCE"I > 9  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)i, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 8  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)s, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 7  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)A, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 6  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)f, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 5  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)d, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 4  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)_, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 3  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)n, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 2  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072) , >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I > 1  "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)a, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]"I >    "MOSOURCE" = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.DEV_SOURCE]" (LNM$GROUP_000072)s, >         = "MOSSREL_PRD01:[MOSSPRD.SOURCE]" > F > It would appear to have sort of worked but what are all the repeated) > lines for? It doesn't look right to me.b >f	 > Regardsu > Andrew Scott >f >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:42:45 -0600 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>5 Subject: RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no costC- Message-ID: <0033000018186928000002L082*@MHS>*  , =0AWhoops- I should have been more specific. This was on a Multia (UDB)   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETL) > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:38 PML8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET7 > Subject: RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost  >a > 7 > I ordered one of the 1" deep fans from McMaster-Carr.  >n9 > Easy to replace but you should be careful where you cut 9 > the wires going to the mainboard and also have a couple/: > of small (24-26AWG) butt splice connectors to attach the< > wires coming from the fan to the stub of the old fan wires+ > that have the connector attached to them.  > 8 > I'd say that it really cooks, but it doesn't any more. >  > WWWebb >  > > -----Original Message-----3 > > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETf+ > > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:58 AM : > > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET9 > > Subject: RE: better cooling for the XP1000 at no cost  > >  > > ; > > As a side note, one of the more popular mods to the UDB" > > (Multia) with an= > > Alpha processor is to cut one of the wires leading to the 
 > thermistor,o? > > which makes the fan run at full speed constantly.  The fanso > > life may ben? > > reduced, but given the proclivity of those boxes to smoke at > > certain chip> > > on the bottom of the logic board, doing this mod and using
 > the uprightm@ > > stand doubtles increases the UDB's useful life expectancy at > > the expensel! > > of noticeable noise increase.s > >h> > > I haven't noticed any problems with cooling on my PWS600au
 > yet, though = > > with two longhair dogs in the house, frequent cleaning is=
 > on the list  > > of things to do. > >E > > Rich Jordan  > > rjordan@mcs.netm > >$ >=   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 20:34:38 GMT$2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)( Subject: blade vs. DS10 on "mybenchmark", Message-ID: <988qcu$h8t@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  9 Disk IO benchmarks are now in for the Sun Blade 100 usingoJ "mybenchmark" (http://seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu/pub/software/mybenchmark.zip)= and have been added to the table.  My thanks to Brian Stretch H (bstretch@mindspring.com) and Paul Joslin (paul.joslin@suncor3.sdrc.com)G for running these.  Results for a VAX 4000 were reported "Barry Treahy, 0 Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com> and have also been added.  ; Note that contrary to some of my former statements the UnixrB machines are not (apparently) all using file caching to obtain theI speeds obtained on /tmp - but caching on the drive itself is enabled. The-L test file created by maketest is 8326000 bytes long - do the math to get the actual write speeds observed.   K The STREAM benchmark for a Blade 100 is about 4 times lower than on a DS10,tH but the $1000 "vanilla" blade still moves data to disk (or at least the I memory cache on the disk) many times faster than heavily optimized IO caniH on a DS10 running VMS.  And it does it using an ATA disk. A DS10 runningJ Linux or Tru64 - and using uw or u2w scsi, is faster than a blade though.  (No big surprise there.) f  J I don't expect shame (or anything else) from Compaq management, but I hope= that the folks in VMS engineering are suitably red faced thatrF this el cheapo Sun system just wiped the floor with the VMS DS10 with ! respect to disk IO.  (And price.)e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech vJ **************************************************************************  7 This is a table showing MYBENCHMARK speeds on a variety 9 of platforms.  Times shown are in seconds.  The tests ares8 from the MYBENCHMARK suite which measure various aspects+ of "disk" I/O and file caching performance.      Tests to local disks:iS      maketestf    mystart       myread        mysplit      Disk  OS        HardwareuD Notes      maketest      myopenin      myopen        mysplitbinary  P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------b  2   -     0.33   0.01   0.01   0.17   0.17   0.41   1.14  /tmp  Linux64   Blazer Itanium (666Mhz)b  3   -     0.42   0.00   0.00   0.28   0.24   0.64   0.62  /tmp  RH 7      Proliant 550 (450Mhz)  b  5   0.90  0.40   0.00   0.00   0.20   0.20   0.70   1.30  /tmp  SunOS 5.7 Ultra60 (360 Mhz)      d 18   1.50  0.30   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.20   1.50   1.30  /tmp  SunOS 5.8 Blade 100 (500 Mhz)      b  7   2.90  0.20   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.10   0.50   0.30  /tmp  Tru64     DS10L (466 Mhz)        b  9   3.40  0.20   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.10   0.60   0.30  /tmp  Tru64     DS20 (500 Mhz)         a 12   1.46  0.29   0.00   0.00   0.14   0.11   0.40   0.37  /tmp  RH 6.2    DS10 (466 Mhz)         c 16   -     0.43   0.01   0.01   0.30   0.64   1.10   0.97  RAM   VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)sg 11  19.85  1.36   0.02   0.01   0.20   4.46   7.76   7.94  local OVMS7.3FT DS10L (466 Mhz)(FASTRMS)    ec 15   -     1.77   0.02   0.04   0.47   9.05  16.62  14.38  local VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)cc 14   -    26.46   0.11   0.01   0.54   7.75  46.51  39.10  local VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (Vanilla)sh 17  12.18  9.51   0.13   0.18   6.13   9.21  19.61  16.27  local VMS 7.2   VAX 4000/100   (FASTRMS,RAID)   Tests to networked disks: S      maketestf    mystart       myread        mysplit      Disk  OS        Hardware D Notes      maketest      myopenin      myopen        mysplitbinary  P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------b  1   -     2.29   0.01   0.01   1.14   1.40   5.49   4.67  NFS   Linux64   Blazer Itanium (666Mhz)b  4   1.20  0.70   0.00   0.00   3.60   0.50   1.70   3.80  NFS   SunOS 5.7 Ultra60 (360 Mhz)      b  6   3.50  1.50   0.00   0.00   0.10   2.10   6.00   4.70  NFS   Tru64     DS10L (466 Mhz)        b  8   3.50  1.40   0.00   0.00   0.10   2.20   6.20   4.70  NFS   Tru64     DS20 (500 Mhz)         j 10  35.57 34.33   0.03   0.02   0.20   5.55  43.27  40.24  MSCP  OVMS7.3FT DS10L (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)        F 1. Linux64 on a Blazer Itanium (666Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.3 Using /home (NFS mounted from spe253) . 08-FEB-2001-  F 2. Linux64 on a Blazer Itanium (666Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system. Using /tmp . 08-FEB-2001  E 3. RedHat7 on a Proliant 5500 (450Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.d Using /tmp . 08-FEB-2001  F 4. SunOS 5.7 on an Ultra60 (360 Mhz) - the Caltech ITS "clyde" system.& Using /home (NFS mounted). 02-MAR-2001  E 5. SunOS 5.7 on an Ultra60 (360Mhz) - the Caltech ITS "clyde" system.o Using /tmp. 02-MAR-2001   C 6. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.hC Using /usr/bin/time on the login directory which is on /home, whiche4 in NFS mounted and served from "spe253". 08-FEB-2001  C 7. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.n6 Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001& MAKETESTF: Creating test file, fortran  B 8. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS20 (500Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.C Using /usr/bin/time on the login directory which is on /home, which 4 in NFS mounted and served from "spe253". 08-FEB-2001  B 9. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS20 (500Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.6 Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001& MAKETESTF: Creating test file, fortran  M 10. OpenVMS 7.3 field test on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.nA Using USER1 login directory which is served from VMSSERV which is.= an AlphaServer 1200 5/400 and the device is a DEC RZ1CB-CA.  m/ FASTRMS variant of these programs.  08-FEB-2001   B 11. OpenVMS 7.3 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.A Using $2$DKA100, which is a SCSI disk on "spe202".  Using FASTRMSn variants.  09-FEB-2001  @ 12.Redhat 6.2 on a DS10 (466Mhz U2W disks) - my "barrel" system,6 Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001  A 14. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system.>* RMS set to defaults.  No FASTRMS settings.  A 15. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system.r' RMS set to defaults.  FASTRMS settings.>  A 16. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system. 4 RMS set to defaults.  FASTRMS settings. On a RAMDISK  C 17. OpenVMS 7.2, VAX 4000/100, no VIOC or third party disk caching,AC and all storage connected via standard 8-bit internal SCSI-1 bus toiG a Infrotrends RAID array OpenVMS 7.2 on VAX 4000/100.  FASTRMS variant.eD RMS block=0/buffer=0/extend=64.  Barry Treahy, Jr. <treahy@mmaz.com>  ? 18. SunOS 5.8, Sun Blade 100, 128Mb RAM, UltraSparcIIe 500 Mhz,l< by Brian Stretch (bstretch@mindspring.com).  Similar resultsE reported by Paul Joslin (paul.joslin@suncor3.sdrc.com). 08-MAR-2001. eF Note that mysplit results reproted by both testers showed user:0.3 and7 sys:0.1, leaving the other .9 seconds unaccounted for. o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:43:40 -05003 From: "CETS Information" <Information@CETS2001.com>  Subject: CETS-2001 Graphicst2 Message-ID: <989jil$48v$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>  9 This is what the graphics for CETS-2001 will look like...n  1 http://members.toast.net/KilleenJ/cets/cetstt.jpg    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:33:02 -0600% From: "GSM User" <gsm1@ix.netcom.com>F+ Subject: Command procedure for opening porte2 Message-ID: <9894v8$itg$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>  H I am need of figuring out how to setup a command procedure for reading aJ file and sending the commands out on a certain port either using telnet orK somehow opening a socket for the port.  Is there a fairly easy way of doingoK this where I can send multiple commands over the port as I read from a flaty( file of commands?  Thanks for any help!!   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:57:53 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e/ Subject: Re: Command procedure for opening port , Message-ID: <3AA82A8E.232C8442@videotron.ca>   GSM User wrote:  > J > I am need of figuring out how to setup a command procedure for reading aL > file and sending the commands out on a certain port either using telnet or( > somehow opening a socket for the port.   HELP TELNET CREATE_SESSION   or TELNET Telnet> HELP CREATE_SESSIONn    J You can use that command to open the TCPIP connection , and that creates a9 device you can then open/read/write to with DCL commands.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:39:56 +0000m- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>sH Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot) Message-ID: <3AA7B5DB.755FC732@bbc.co.uk>a   Phillip Helbig wrote:o  L > > Good points.  After the VMS edu program was introduced late last year, aH > > few here mentioned how useless/restrictive it was.  Rich knows this.+ > > Let's see if things get changed or not.  > I > Rich has known it for a long time.  Despite pleading, there has been NOu > RESPONSE from the Q....-  M Well, they did give you free base licences to use with CSLG, maybe they thinkn theyA that is enough and will get the idea they can't please academics.s  --D6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uke  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of, MedAS or the BBC.a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 00:35:50 GMTi1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)rH Subject: Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract after Sun gets the boot, Message-ID: <9898h6$2iva$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <87itlkrzl2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,S/  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:l& |> Koloth <koloth@tmisnet.com> writes: |> eC |> > I would also work with the universities to incorporate OpenVMSt6 |> > system management training into their curriculum. |>   |> Been there... |> eG |> To do it WELL, you need one machine per person. They HAVE to be able 3 |> to screw up, without crippelling some one else.    G Actually, you don't need a one-to-one for this to work.  We have a Profe/ now who does it just fine with 3 student teams.l  H |>                                                 Plus, you also need a2 |> number of larger machines and HSx controllers.   D While nice, this would also not be trully necessary.  Remember, yourA talking about 13 week terms.  You can only pack so much into thatoF period of time.  They are not going to come out journeyman VMS admins.  G |>                                                Now even if the tooth I |> Fairy left every thing under the door mat, there is that little matter  |> of SPACE.  D That is less of a problem than you might think.  Given the equipmentB and it's percieved value, people higher up would jump through someC pretty good hoops to make the sapce necessary.  It is the equipmentlA itself that no one would ever justify spending the money on.  Not @ when the same amount would buy a significantly greater amount of commodity PC's.j   |> .H |> There is only one way that I can see in most places. The machine have |> to be multi-use.   I This is the reason why getting desktop apps ported is so important.  They J need to be capable of general purpose work too if they are to see any realH use.  Otherwise, they are just another niche box like the PowerMacs theyH had for a while in the Communications lab.  Nice boxes, but limited use,J which resulted in a lab that was empty most of the time while the studentsG sought out GP labs to get their real work done.  A lab is no good if it H has nothing on it the students need and familiarity only comes with use.  I |>                  Labs can be dedicated to a specific class, or classesdI |> with ease if it exists. I think you all know how many uni student labs1* |> with 20-40 Alphas in them there are...   5 Ummmm. Let's see how many we have here.  Ummmm. None.R  J |>                                         And no, the dept managers often) |> don't understand why a P166 is no use!A  F Right now, the people in decision making positions within academia areI the same as in the rest of the world. They have never heard of, much lessUJ actually used a VMS machine.  They do know Windows.  That's a hard current to swim against.   |> DC |> So what is needed, is a sub $1K Alpha ( and falling ), VMS, Full H |> networking, clustering, HSM, RDB,... and ALL the fruit SW wise. AfterG |> all, what is the point of adding EDT or TPU to vi? You NEED to teach$D |> at least a smattering of critical HD apps, or it's just a another |> nerdy basket weaving unit.S |> L |> Much more important is: |> "' |> 1 A stats package like SPSS for Wxx.T |> 2 A *good* web browser.> |> 3 Decent mailer and News reader. No, don't use the browser.E |> 4 Emacs/AucTeX/TeX/LaTeX and a biblio interface to the unis biblioR |>    lookup system.> |> 4 A WP for the brain dead. ( Unis seem to be full of them ) |> 5 Mathlab/Mathmatica. |> .E |> That is a MINIMUM for a student lab machine. Add a varying load ofRF |> stuff for dept wants and likes, but that is second level. The aboveH |> should cover 99% of general stuff. Get them in, and you have a chance9 |> of grabbing a lab and a few larger boxen for teaching.R  = And we have now made another full circle.  We have once againM: delineated not only the problem, but the best option for a: solution.  Now, everybody will just go away until the same= subject pops up again in another six months.  It's really tooD> bad nobody in a position to actually do anything about is ever listening.  :-(.   bill   -- "J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:34:25 -0500 0 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com>2 Subject: Re: CPU serial number on AlphaStation 4002 Message-ID: <kt6nOiyc3+tl9l0miPU7UlJCKvTP@4ax.com>  8 It's on the back of the tower just under the power plug.  E On 8 Mar 2001 17:38:55 GMT, vogt@alice.obspm.fr (Etienne Vogt) wrote:L   >Hello,W >1? > Does anyone know where the CPU serial number is located on ano6 >AlphaStation 400 (Yes, it's for a hobbyist license) ?B > Should I look at the back of the tower, on the CPU board itself,5 >or is there a console command that will display it ?m >n >Many thanks in advance,   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:20:02 GMTi* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net> Subject: Re: CSWS CGI problemo; Message-ID: <CXQp6.9676$E57.377725@news4.aus1.giganews.com>e  ? "Martin Vorlaender" <martin@radiogaga.harz.de> wrote in messageb5 news:3aa7b57a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de...b > Hi,d >s > I'm at my wits end.s >lL > The environment: VMS/Alpha 7.2-1H1, TCPware 5.4-3 plus all available ECOs,F > CSWS 1.0-1 (mainly the default configuration - at least the /cgi-bin > config is default).h >iJ > When I try to start the provided TEST-CGI-VMS.COM (or any other .COM CGI: > script), I always get a 500 response. The error log says >RD >   <timestamp> [<pid>] GENERIC_SOCKETPAIR_inet: SYS$ASSIGN() - 2312 > - > followed by "couldn't spawn child process".c >R > Anyone seen this?   G Yes, last Friday in fact but with Multinet. And the answer was providedu( over in vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet:  B >> Please note that, in order for CSWS to function correctly under3 >> Multinet, you must define the following logical:   * >> $ Define/System TCPIP$DEVICE UCX$DEVICE  F >> CSWS expects the TCPIP$... logicals and Multinet still defines themJ >> using UCX$...  So far as I can tell, the only one it currently needs is >> the TCPIP$DEVICE logical.   >> Mark Berryman  J Will this work with TCPware ?? No idea so YMMV. And you can also check out< vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.tcpware though I don't see any recent related messages there.....    -Andy-   --G The real romance is out ahead and yet to  come. The computer revolution F hasn't started yet. Don't be misled by the enormous flow of money intoG bad defacto standards for unsophisticated buyers using poor adaptationss: of incomplete ideas.                           -- Alan Kay   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:08:29 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: CSWS CGI problemo; Message-ID: <3aa83b1d.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>e  ) Andy Stoffel (acs@fcgnetworks.net) wrote: 9 > "Martin Vorlaender" <martin@radiogaga.harz.de> wrote...o > > I'm at my wits end.  .... > > Anyone seen this?0 >rI > Yes, last Friday in fact but with Multinet. And the answer was provided.* > over in vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet: >tD > >> Please note that, in order for CSWS to function correctly under5 > >> Multinet, you must define the following logical:n > >>, > >> $ Define/System TCPIP$DEVICE UCX$DEVICE > >>H > >> CSWS expects the TCPIP$... logicals and Multinet still defines themL > >> using UCX$...  So far as I can tell, the only one it currently needs is > >> the TCPIP$DEVICE logical. >lL > Will this work with TCPware ?? No idea so YMMV. And you can also check out> > vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.tcpware though I don't see any recent > related messages there.....g  J It's the same with TCPware. I can't beleive I missed that post - I monitor both mailinglists regularly.  6 Thanks a lot (also to Mark Berryman for finding this).   cu,e   Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.derJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 15:56:39 -0500*9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)s0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <XiOBjQjMWqNH@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:. > In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> s > |>  H > |> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compilingB > |> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler > |> construction  > C > Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  Ann > opinion I don't share.    G But I do.  I think we should all agree that the method chosen by people G who were actually willing to do the work is superior to methods that in F theory would be chosen by those sitting around chatting in a newsgroup without doing the work.   D > |> If you once have a running Ada compiler the chicken-egg-problemF > |> is solved. This stage has obviously long reached and the decisionK > |> to (re-)write the Ada front-end in Ada can only be highly appreciated.  > J > Except that in the past it was possible to port GNAT to any machine thatL > had even a rudimentary K&R C compiler.  That covered a rather large subsetO > of the computing industry.  Requiring something as obscure as an Ada compiler1K > in order to build the Ada compiler has made it virtually impossible to doLJ > private ports to new systems.  I believe this was the intent of ACT and = > would seem to be very contrary to the ideal behind the GPL.6  F No, the typical method by which GNAT is ported to new platforms is viaE cross-compilation.  Building a cross compiler to an already-supported2B GCC target with GNAT is only slightly more complex that building aI GNAT compiler targeting the same machine as that which runs the compiler.   D By the way, compiling the GNAT Ada modules requires the use of GNAT, not just any Ada compiler.  L Plans in the future are for GNAT to be part of the general GCC distribution,  sometime shortly after GCC V3.0.  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:05:10 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010308170350.01fb6a98@24.8.96.48>  2 At 03:56 PM 3/8/2001 -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrote:H >In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu  >(Bill Gunshannon) writes:0 > > In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,0 > >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > > |> > > |>J > > |> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compilingD > > |> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler > > |> construction- > > E > > Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  Ano > > opinion I don't share. >.H >But I do.  I think we should all agree that the method chosen by peopleH >who were actually willing to do the work is superior to methods that inG >theory would be chosen by those sitting around chatting in a newsgroup  >without doing the work.  K It's also not unreasonable to expect that the folks writing a compiler for TL a language are especially fluent in that language, thus generally making it J a good choice of implementation language. (Better an Ada compiler written K in Ada by people fluent in Ada than one written in C by folks who can just T get by in C...)    					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------02 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and event;                                       teddy bears get drunkr   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:14:25 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon).0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <9893oh$2g2q$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <rdeininger-0803011139570001@user-2iveaj3.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:r |> sG |> Robert Dewar could give an authoritative answer to this, but I don'tnM |> believe they ever implemented their whole compiler in C.  I think it was a.K |> small, bootstrapping subset of Ada implemented in C.  That was enough toe8 |> allow the remaining implementation to be done in Ada.  C Sadly, all of the old versions seem to be gone from NYU's ftp site.MB I have not tried compiling it since ACT took over, but I know thatA the original and early versions from NYU were entirely in C.  It r/ was quite common then to have to roll your own.b   |>  A |> I think a sensible person porting GNAT to a new platform wouldaM |> cross-compile.  Compile to intermediate form on the existing platform (for8H |> example the point where the GCC back-end takes over), and do the codeC |> generation on the new platform, using whatever native backend isJK |> available.  That doesn't sound vitrually impossible to me, and I believetJ |> it has been done with GNAT several times.  Some work may be required toM |> extract the appropriate intermediate form into appropriate files, transferMM |> the files to the target system, and load the info into the back-end's datau |> structures.  A But the difference is that in the early versions you could do thes@ whole thing with a single "make" command.  Today, that option is8 gone.  A major step backwards in the portability realm!!   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:12:10 -0800u! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.como0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than laterD Message-ID: <OF15E80CC1.19D31B85-ON88256A0A.001160A0@foundation.com>  D That model only works for some languages. Anybody who writes a BASICJ compiler in BASIC, or a Java JIT compiler in Java needs to be removed from the gene pool.....   Shanea          6 Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> on 03/08/2001 02:05:10 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> cc:S  1 Subject:  Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than latero    2 At 03:56 PM 3/8/2001 -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrote:G >In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu  >(Bill Gunshannon) writes:0 > > In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,0 > >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > > |> > > |>J > > |> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compilingD > > |> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler > > |> construction5 > >0E > > Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  An  > > opinion I don't share. >tH >But I do.  I think we should all agree that the method chosen by peopleH >who were actually willing to do the work is superior to methods that inG >theory would be chosen by those sitting around chatting in a newsgroup  >without doing the work.  J It's also not unreasonable to expect that the folks writing a compiler forK a language are especially fluent in that language, thus generally making iteI a good choice of implementation language. (Better an Ada compiler writtennJ in Ada by people fluent in Ada than one written in C by folks who can just get by in C...)y                            Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------l2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and eveno;                                       teddy bears get drunka   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 20:43:19 -0500u/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)n0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later* Message-ID: <989cfn$usc$1@lisa.gemair.com>  , In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>,- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote:t- >In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,u- > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:t >|>  >|> G >|> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compilingrA >|> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler  >|> construction > > B >Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  An >opinion I don't share.  s > A >|>              than the alternative in this case C which is notaE >|> only unsuitable for comiler construction but also for almost all s >|> other tasks. >f* >Also your opinion and one I do not share. >  >|> C >|> If you once have a running Ada compiler the chicken-egg-problemuE >|> is solved. This stage has obviously long reached and the decision J >|> to (re-)write the Ada front-end in Ada can only be highly appreciated. > I >Except that in the past it was possible to port GNAT to any machine thatnK >had even a rudimentary K&R C compiler.  That covered a rather large subseteN >of the computing industry.  Requiring something as obscure as an Ada compilerJ >in order to build the Ada compiler has made it virtually impossible to doI >private ports to new systems.  I believe this was the intent of ACT and t< >would seem to be very contrary to the ideal behind the GPL. >a  H This is ridiculous.  You clearly don't understand how GNAT, married withF the GCC backend works.  You can cross compile the GNAT system onto anyE system on which GCC is supported.  It's not particularly difficult tor7 have GCC generate object code for any supported system.t   >billy >e >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvescE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.i >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      -Jordan Hendersone jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 02:33:02 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN- Message-ID: <87wva0qffl.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  / John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> writes:t  F > > The backend on VAX, VCG, was written in PL/I.  Don't know what theD > > front-end was implemented in but I believe that it used the PL/I+ > > symbol table and intermediate language.e  F > If you are implying that Compaq Pascal on VAX uses the VCG, then youE > are incorrect.  VAX Pascal has its own personal code generator thathB > was based on some work done at Carnegie Mellon (PCQQ, ProductionE > Quality Compiler Compiler).  The only compilers that use the VCG onb@ > VAX are, C, Ada, PL/I, SCAN, and C++ (?).  Fortran 77, Pascal,: > BASIC, COBOL, and BLISS each have their own private code > generators/optimizers.  ? So VCG is the Cutler et al back-end from the original PL/I portt from Honeywell?i  ? Is the BLISS backend based on the Original BLISS, or the later o CMU one, or DEC only?    -- s< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.w@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:59:01 -0500 - From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>c8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN2 Message-ID: <3AA7BA55.68D46C20@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Paul Repacholi wrote:u > A > So VCG is the Cutler et al back-end from the original PL/I portl > from Honeywell?c  ? Not sure.  I never touched the VCG or a front-end that used it.g     @ > Is the BLISS backend based on the Original BLISS, or the later > CMU one, or DEC only?j  F BLISS was invented at CMU in 1969.  See "BLISS: A Language for SystemsE Programming", W.A. Wulf, et. al., 'Communications of the ACM', Volumet 14, Number 12, pp. 780-790.   H CMU had a BLISS-10 and BLISS-11.  They didn't do a VAX code generator atG CMU.  VAXen didn't exist yet.  BLISS-11 was the implementation languager' for the Hydra OS on the C.mmp hardware.a  G Ron Brender (a Digital employee) went to see Wulf in 1970 to learn more- about BLISS.    A At Digital, BLISS-32 first appeared in 1976.  BLISS-36 (replacinga@ BLISS-10) appeared in 1978.  BLISS-16 cross-compilers (replacing BLISS-11) about the same time.  D Ron wrote a "History of BLISS" that was submitted to be printed in aF journal (I forget which one), but it was returned as "too long" (it isB 123 pages).  I've asked Ron if he might consider posting it here.     -- John Reagan  Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:04:27 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)o' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to VoteM3 Message-ID: <6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  A By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey@5 (too late, which is why they sent the email version).g   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:01:24 GMTd4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Voter< Message-ID: <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org...sC > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey 7 > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).t  J Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issueJ submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first survey5 cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.org,   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 02:53:05 GMTr/ From: StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood) ' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votec1 Message-ID: <3aa84496.87708706@news.telocity.com>l  B On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:42:08 -0500, Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net> wrote:  > >In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, " >terryshannon@mediaone.net says... >> yI >> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in messagen0 >> news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org...F >> > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey: >> > (too late, which is why they sent the email version). >>  M >> Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issuetM >> submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first surveyt8 >> cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.org >f >c  >What? The April 2000 responses? >That's all I could find.- >-6 >I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.  @ It says to view results.  It has been stated previously that the2 Compaq responses will be posted at a later date.      1 View RESULTS of the Issue Prioritization Ballots cB   If you voted on a ballot, click here to view its final results.   > here =D http://www.compaqworkinggroup.org/advocacy/Surveys/SurveyRanking.cfm     Steven P. Underwood,DNRC Whitinsville,MA  StevenU@POBoxes.com    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:42:08 -0500% From: Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net>d' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votel5 Message-ID: <MPG.15120d0984d25bcb9896ff@news.alt.net>C  = In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, M! terryshannon@mediaone.net says...i > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org... E > > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest surveyk9 > > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).e > L > Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issueL > submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first survey7 > cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.org      What? The April 2000 responses?e That's all I could find.  5 I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 04:43:51 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote-< Message-ID: <bcZp6.1674$G76.2481358@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Karl S. Erbland" <karl@ksme.net> wrote in message/ news:MPG.15120d0984d25bcb9896ff@news.alt.net...X> > In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,# > terryshannon@mediaone.net says...c > >sJ > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 > > news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org... G > > > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest surveyi; > > > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).r > >eH > > Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issuesG > > submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the firsti survey9 > > cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.orga >a > ! > What? The April 2000 responses?t > That's all I could find. >d7 > I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.p  K Not having anything to do with the website itself, I'll withhold comment oncA the quality--or lack thereof--of www.compaqworkinggroup.org   ;-}e  J You are correct that the only Compaq responses hail back to last April. IfJ you voted on the questionnaire that was open for voting until March 5, youG can now go back and view the results, e.g. the percentage of votes eachtL ballot item received. You cannot view the free-form responses; these will be. collected and summarized and forwarded to CPQ.  F CPQ will provide responses to the highest-ranking issues in early May.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:28:23 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)6& Subject: Re: LDAP Client for OpenVMS ?3 Message-ID: <p2lFD8iPEkWG@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  _ In article <tafb14e489aa70@news.supernews.com>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:m > Hi,a > K > I'm looking for an LDAP Client for OpenVMS.  Did the LDAP client make to p# > 7.3?  If so, is 7.3 released yet?N  + It was in the 7.3 SDK release (field test).u  H Since nobody has reported receiving the real 7.3 yet, I would say it hasE not been released.  (It does not count if it is lost in the mail :-).=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:43:48 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>=   Brian Wheeler wrote:N >                                                        In general, we've hadP > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200 > with RA81/RA82 disks)1   RA81's sucks !   Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:02:50 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081348480.21469-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  5 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:p   > Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > > You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new UnixeE > > systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to the F > > number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andD > > tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > > VMS vs. Unix.w >=20 > And ?y >=20@ > If you compare number of Windows systems installed with numberA > of Unix systems installed, then you would conslude that Windowsd > is better than Unix ?? >=20  + Never underestimate the power of marketing.   A Microsoft spends a lot more on marketing than any of the Unixes Iu? know of.  And infinitely more than that spent marketing FreeBSD ? which still has a large market share (possibly larger than event VMS.)    Or a gun!!! =20k  C The courts have ruled on more than one occaision that Microsoft has-A bent if not openly broken the law to take the marketshare it has. : And even given this, look at the marketshare held by Unix.  C And to get this back on topic, look at how inspite of these adverse D conditions the marketshare of Unix is continuing to grow.  If VMS isD in fact superior to all of them, why is it's marketshare shrinking??E And how do we reverse this trend??  Bashing Unix just doesn't seem to- be helping much.   bill   --=20>J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |C Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  =20e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:09:00 +0000n- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>u" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7AE9C.EF04A181@bbc.co.uk>o   Phillip Helbig wrote:o  H > > From my experience, MOST decisions in MOST establishments ignore TCOI > > claims/quotes/statements along with reliability and avoidance of blueeJ > > screens. In many areas of life there is advertising.  In some of theseI > > cases the advertising makes you forget that the product that is beingcG > > sold to you is a bag of bolts and you only look at the good points.e >pJ > To get back to the academic angle, many places the budgets for hardware,I > software, administration (salaries) etc come from separate pots.  Thus,TI > when deciding to buy, say, software, lower TCO through less maintenancenF > is not an issue, especially if the staff are already on the payroll,F > perhaps permanently (and might be actively opposed to a system whichC > would leave them looking useless---as it says in the Unix Haters'sH > Handbook, when you unix sysadmin mentions security, he's talking aboutG > his job).  Bottom line: TCO is probably not an issue when it comes totG > VMS making inroads into the academic market.  Also, TCO plays no roleiH > here not only when purchasing, but also during operations: if you loseI > your research work, say, then it isn't directly reflected in "profits",dJ > especially at a non-profit institution; the situation is quite differentJ > in business, where system down time etc has direct consequences in terms > of money.:  L agreed, in academia cost of ownership is not such an issue, there are always  L willing grad students, postdocs or whatever. However, it is an issue outside  F academia, and if there are no young graduates with VMS experience thenG VMS will start becoming less and less competitive due to the spirallingo ratesm# of the few consultants who know it.   I This is why IMHO Compaq should follow Sun and throw hardware and licencesMJ at academia wherever they will stick. 15 years ago 25 grand for a MicroVAX IIB looked like a good deal, now it looks like 20 Sun Blade 100's :-(.   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uke  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofn MedAS or the BBC.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:13:01 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA7AF8D.F9FD4E4D@bbc.co.uk>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  L >  While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor quality and highJ > TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain the success ofH > FreeBSD??  People here would claim that it is unreliable, hard to use,H > hard to admin and has a high TCO.  And yet, unlike Linux, they have noL > marketing department and don't advertise at all.  And I would bet that theL > number of FreeBSD system being used for real work is many times the number: > of VMS systems.  And yes, some of them are rather large. >   O Would this ratio be approximately the same as that of grad students without VMS-/ exposure to those with VMS exposure, perchance?-    -- 6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uka  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofu MedAS or the BBC..   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:31:59 +0100l= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com><" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations( Message-ID: <3AA7DE2F.6CE40DF@gtech.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > But this then fails to explain the success of FreeBSD.  A supposedly8 > inferior product that doesn't do any marketing at all.   Are FreeBSD a huge success ?  sC > > Actually my experience regarding reliability is something like:s > >i
 > > 1) VMS > > 2) Tru64 & Linux > > 3) Solaris (both 1 & 2)h > > 4) Windows > K > Witht he exception of #1, you seem to been very successful at picking theC$ > worst examples of everything else.  > Linux and Solaris has a huge market-share of the Unix market !  @ I would consider it rather relevant to use in a discussion about "Unix".a  a' > #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??b  - Yes. DEC OSF/1 = Digital Unix = Compaq Tru64.g  aJ > #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix)? >      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.b  @ I know that many agrees. If not for other reasons, then just for the troubles in the switch.h  C > > > Not meaning to be overly critical, but that means most likelybD > > > less than 5 years experience with Unix as neither of them even$ > > > existed more than 5 years ago. > >r > > ???? > >mF > > AFAIK then Tru64 started in 1992 (different name, but same OS) andJ > > Solaris 2 started in 1991 (I consider Solaris 1 to be  adifferent OS). > >t1 > > That is 9 and 10 years according to my math !  > K > I'll have to grant you this one, however, I thought Tru64 was much newer.pK > In 1992 DEC was still shipping Ultrix-32 (which was a pretty good producto > in it's own right).t  C Ultrix only ran on VAX and the MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. DEC' OSF/1) was introduced with Alpha.  D >                                                    Solaris 1 neverJ > existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple versions > of SunOS.   E SUN used the names Solaris 1.0 and 1.1. We can call them SunOS 4.x if- you prefer.   G >            I don't think real Solaris showed up until after 1995, butuJ > I would have to go back an look at records to tell.  It wouldn't be thatJ > hard.  All I have to do is look for the point at which we stopped buying > from Sun.   G I was not sure about the year mysekf, so I looked it up on www.sun.com.n  G Note that they were selling both 1.1 and early 2.x at the same time andaB I think it was first around 2.4 or something that Solaris 2 really	 took off.s   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:21:46 GMTe2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <988t5a$k4j@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ` In article <9889qs$23br$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >LJ >While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor quality and highI >TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain the success ofe
 >FreeBSD??  F A lot of people who make decisions NOW used BSD variants of Unix THEN,I while they were in college.  These are the sorts of market opportunities  F that Compaq has destroyed with their incredibly short sighted academic
 programs.   D Of course it also helped xxxBSD that until recently it was much more& reliable than Linux and was also free.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edur? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech oJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:16:39 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081456140.21469-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  5 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:m   >=20 > Are FreeBSD a huge success ?  A I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendors = listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery.lD Realize this is just a quick snapshot.  Consider that their web siteA (a totally passive form of advertising) is the sum total of theirSI marketing efforts.  Then tell me if you think they are successful or not.   D Compaq claims to be actively marketing VMS and yet you don;t see newG vendors porting commercial products to it.  You don't see any noticabletF number of sites moving to it.  Which is more successful??  What is the$ standard you want to measure it by??  @ > Linux and Solaris has a huge market-share of the Unix market ! >=20B > I would consider it rather relevant to use in a discussion about	 > "Unix".   F The power of marketing.  A good salesman can sell iceboxes to eskimos.   > =20u) > > #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??s >=203 > Yes. DEC OSF/1 =3D Digital Unix =3D Compaq Tru64.w  C Another case of throwing out a proven product with over a decade ofwF development behind it in favor of an untested re-write.  How far aheadE would thay have been if they had not gone back to the beginning again<J but instead had continued on with the development of their solid product??   > =20UL > > #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix= )eA > >      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.m >=20B > I know that many agrees. If not for other reasons, then just for > the troubles in the switch.h  D Thr trouble in the switch was trivial in most cases.  Originally theC biggest problem was just keeping it up.  Of course, if their intent D was to sell more hardware, it was the right direction to go.  The=20C demand on system resources is so much greater it won't even run any- older hardware.    >=20E > Ultrix only ran on VAX and the MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. DECc" > OSF/1 was introduced with Alpha.  G Ultrix heritage goes further back than that.  I have recently helped=20:E with a revival of Ultrix-11 which does a real good job of getting theU% most out of some really slim systems..  H Ultrix could have been ported to the Alpha in a fraction of the time andF effort that was put into writting OSF1.  And it would have already hadI the advantage of all the bugs that had been squashed during it's previous  lives.   >=20F > >                                                    Solaris 1 neverL > > existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple version= s 
 > > of SunOS.y >=20G > SUN used the names Solaris 1.0 and 1.1. We can call them SunOS 4.x ifw
 > you prefer.w  C They were SunOS.  The Solaris name was added afterwards.  All of myaI CD's say Sunos 4.1.?.  Again, a marketing ploy intended to decieve peopleeI into thinking there was a history to Solaris.  Internally, there was only ' the minimum of similarity between them.r   >=20I > >            I don't think real Solaris showed up until after 1995, but L > > I would have to go back an look at records to tell.  It wouldn't be tha= trL > > hard.  All I have to do is look for the point at which we stopped buyin= gh
 > > from Sun.  >=20I > I was not sure about the year mysekf, so I looked it up on www.sun.com.1 >=20I > Note that they were selling both 1.1 and early 2.x at the same time andL  D Of course they were.  Because 1.1 was SunOS 4.1.4.  The Solaris nameF was only applied after the fact.  It may have had something to do withG the fact that 4.1.4 was released out of necessity after Sun had alreadyuH announced that there would be no more releases of SunOS.  A large numberF of security bugs had to be fixed and real Solaris was not hardly readyG for prime time yet.  I think if you can track down real dates, you will A find that Solaris 2.0 was actually released before "Solaris" 1.1.t  D > I think it was first around 2.4 or something that Solaris 2 really > took off.   H 2.4 or 2.5, yes.  We had pretty much given up on it by then.  Of course,F that too could have been an excellent opportunity for DEC/Compaq to=20F get back into the educational market, but it was a missed opportunity.E PC's with Windows and Linux made some of their biggest in-roads then.n  $ And the rest as they say is history.   bill   --=20 J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |C Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  =20n   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 20:42:28 GMTe1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)L" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <988qrk$2c9f$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7A749.19C83CCF@gtech.com>,,@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:eO |> > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each Sun,Q |> > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server viarO |> > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,fJ |> > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server byL |> > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendsO |> > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen.h |> > oQ |> > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combinedaP |> > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelyP |> > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug it8 |> > into another, and instantly be back where you were. |> a@ |> So it is more like what in the PC world would be a "dedicated |> PC-Anywhere-client system" !-  H Sounds like a commercial implementation of VNC to me.  I've used it hereF for both PC and Unix sessions. It's nice to be able to start somethingG here at work and then leave for home and pick it up again in the middlec
 after supper.a  ' But hardly earth shattering technology.o   bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   y   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:35:04 GMTt1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)-" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <988tu8$2dtn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <1acfatoe2s3qijg4tdm6uie2b61j781043@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |> cI |> So now we know. 20 years of Unix experience and Unix is as easy to use I |> as VMS. I would argue you need far less time to reach proficiency as a  |> VMS admin  B yes, after 20 years of Admining Unix systems I am as good at it asC someone who has been Admining VMS for 20 years.  What's the problem0A with that??  Or are you hinting that people are born with all theLE knowledge necesaary to Admin VMS??  I seem to recall a query a little0F while ago about the ages of people here and it seemed most of the VMS E experts had been at it for rather a long time.  Sys Admin is a trade,iD just like any other.  You learn it over time.  You have to learn theG jargon and all the vagaries of the systems involved.  It doesn't matteroE wether it's VMS or Unix.  With time comes experience.  And being goode2 at one doesn't automatically make the other wrong.  @ What I am trying to get accross to people here is that VMS is in? direct competition with Unix.  Unix is cheaper.  Unix is not asoD hard to set up, maintain or use as some here would have you believe.B That makes the taskof competing with it even harder.  You may find? Unix jargon obscure, but the rest of the world does not.  VisitmF you local Waldenbooks or Borders or Barnes&Noble.  How many Unix/LinuxC books are on the shelf??  How many VMS??  The time has come to stopo@ fighting the battle by denigrating the competition, cause nobodyB who matters is listening.  The people who are making the decisionsF about the next machine for Big Company INC. know all about Unix/Linux.? They have never heard of VMS.  They are not convinced by empty o@ arguments about Unix TCO being higher.  They have a Linux box inB their house and have been running it since they were in school and? it isn't hard for them to maintain.  They hav enever seen a VMSt; box.  Which one do you think they are likely to recommend??    bill m   -- yJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:40:51 GMTe* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations2 Message-ID: <988u93$ncg$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  ) In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,b- 	Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:n > Brian Wheeler wrote:O >>                                                        In general, we've had.Q >> more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200t >> with RA81/RA82 disks) >  > RA81's sucks ! >  > Arne  L Agreed.  Though, it is nice to be able to fix disks with a socket set :)  WeG got 2 RA82s and an RA81 from IU surplus a while back, and I was able tof? rearrange enough parts in the RA82s to make one working unit...,   BrianO   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:33:19 GMTa1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9894rv$2h5v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |> aI |> MVS! What could be easier than $ MCR AUTHORIZE MODI USER/PASS=passwordt  7 How about: adduser userid "" "" "John Q. User" passwordC  C With the two placeholders being for login groups and login class ifa- you choose to provide other than the default.t   |> iC |> Most sites will create a simple DCL menu for tasks such as thesei
 |> anyway.  1 And this is different (or easier than) Unix how??e   |>  F |> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,I |> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basiclI |> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessable F |> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2 |> iC |> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fullya! |> available in about 5 minutes. o  C Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too.aB But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine.  G |>                               Yes I can think of more time consuming I |> ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster commone$ |> startup files what's the problem?  F The problem is that it assumes multiple machines running in a cluster,G which was not the original argument.  We were talking about OS installse and which was easier.i   |> -G |> But that's not happening. We are getting via DII COE Unix shells andm- |> APIs back as well as a faster file system.j  C The first is a badn-aid at best.  Remember POSIX.  It promised, butk@ did not deliver, the same thing.  And the last is a promise from@ someone who, based on the comments we see here from more seriousC VMS advocates than I will ever be, is most likely just making emptyo, promises with no plan to ever deliver on it.   |> s |> >C |> >You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new UnixoE |> >systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to thehF |> >number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andD |> >tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding |> >VMS vs. Unix.s |> oI |> The majority of the world doesn't understand VMS so they cant possiblyt" |> share a VMS advocates opinions.  F Understand it.  The majority of the world has never even heard of VMS.G But they have heard (and seen) enough of Unix to know hogwash when they.F see it.  It's time for VMS to stop saying how good it is and actually  show someone where it matters.   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:44:50 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)y" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9895hi$2hjh$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <988ijg$m37$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,-  bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:o/ |> In article <9885hf$21gv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,i7 |> 	bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:C |> oF |> > Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited useD |> > of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongestC |> > value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had beenrE |> > strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of " |> > experince with unreliability. |> > S |> sP |> That's a load of shit, plain and simple.  While it may not be the most stableL |> unix out there, nor the most technically advanced, it is quite stable and" |> very competent for many tasks.   J Possibly, it isn't bad as a desktop environment although it offers nothing  not available in better systems.  M |>                                How exactly does it serve as a bad example?   I Reinvented TCPIP while there existed a free and well tested IP stack thatiH had decades of research and development behind it.  resulting in a stack7 with poorer performance even at this stage of the game.'  I Reinvented the unix filesystem ignoring decades of research that precededn it.   Q |> I've got production linux boxes which have been serving databases continuouslyhN |> since oct '99...no reboots...no crashes...no downtime...nothing.  In fact, 5 |> I've not had to think about the thing in months.     K Congratulations, you have been lucky.  Maybe even Linux is finally catchingeJ up.  Think where they would have been if they had built on all those yearsN of research that preceded them instead of pretending they were doing something new.  G I tried to run a News Server on Linux some years back.  The file systemeE could not handle the transaction rate and would frequently crash.  InAD many of these cases, requiring remaking the whole file system with aF complete loss of all articles.  You can imagine how happy this made my users.    A That's just one specific of many problems that had been solved intD every other version of Unix out there at the same time.  While neverE trying as intense a task as that again, I have tried Linux at various E intervals since up to as recent as the latest RedHat.  Performance isoC acceptable on the desktop, server performance is never as good as ac BSD box on the same hardware.8  J |>                                                   In general, we've hadQ |> more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200hN |> with RA81/RA82 disks) and our Digital Unix box than with some of our Linux 	 |> boxes.   J That's pretty funny really.  I have a VAX3000 (I think, KA650 cpu) runningL Ultrix-32 in the other room with RA81 disks and it just plugs along happily.   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:47:18 GMT*1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)*" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9895m6$2hjh$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7AF8D.F9FD4E4D@bbc.co.uk>,*0  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: |> - |> - |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 |> 5O |> >  While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor quality and highkM |> > TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain the success offK |> > FreeBSD??  People here would claim that it is unreliable, hard to use,rK |> > hard to admin and has a high TCO.  And yet, unlike Linux, they have nocO |> > marketing department and don't advertise at all.  And I would bet that thelO |> > number of FreeBSD system being used for real work is many times the numbery= |> > of VMS systems.  And yes, some of them are rather large.t |> > |> .R |> Would this ratio be approximately the same as that of grad students without VMS2 |> exposure to those with VMS exposure, perchance?  N I don't know, is the number of grad students with VMS exposure higher than 0??   Not here anywmore!!i   bill   -- uJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:45:52 GMTT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)=" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9895jg$2hjh$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,i@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> Brian Wheeler wrote:nQ |> >                                                        In general, we've hadfS |> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200S |> > with RA81/RA82 disks) |>   |> RA81's sucks !e  B Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room an inferiority complex.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 00:04:28 GMTe1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9896mc$2i5g$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7AE9C.EF04A181@bbc.co.uk>,b0  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: |> v? |> agreed, in academia cost of ownership is not such an issue, o  F Excuse me??  That may fly at MIT, but that's not where the majority ofE students are going.  Smaller schools account for a much larger numberSD of grads than the big named ones anymore.  And I can assure you they4 pinch every penny twice before it goes out the door.  O |>                                                             there are alwayss |>  / |> willing grad students, postdocs or whatever.u  F To do what??  I tried having a student do simple Windows installs.  ItC was more work and more time consuming fixing his mistakes than justuF doing the job myself.  Add to that the dreaded security issue.  PeopleB here have said they wouldn't trust software installed off the net.J Would you trust a machine for which a student ever had the root password??  O |>                                              However, it is an issue outsidei |> wI |> academia, and if there are no young graduates with VMS experience thensJ |> VMS will start becoming less and less competitive due to the spiralling, |> rates of the few consultants who know it.  K Start becoming??  What do you think we (myself included!!) have been sayingwF here for so long??  VMS is all but gone from academia.  Do you see anyJ liklihood that this is going to change in the foreseeable future??  Do you" see the long term effect of this??   |> tL |> This is why IMHO Compaq should follow Sun and throw hardware and licencesM |> at academia wherever they will stick. 15 years ago 25 grand for a MicroVAXrH |> II looked like a good deal, now it looks like 20 Sun Blade 100's :-(.  D Another convert!!  Now let's top bashing Unix and work out some realF plans to get a lab full of Alphas running VMS as an option to that labD full of PC's!!!  One thing I can safely say about spending here, if B someone were to cough up a lab's worth of machines with software ID would be able to get the administration to cough up the room to set  up the lab.a   bill     -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 00:22 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)o" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <9MAR200100222034@gerg.tamu.edu>  K In article <988tu8$2dtn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu writes... C }yes, after 20 years of Admining Unix systems I am as good at it as 0 }someone who has been Admining VMS for 20 years.   Are you? How do you know?f  B What makes you think you are any better at it than a VMS admin who, has been at it for only 10 years, or just 5?  ? You seem to make a lot of unsupported assertions. You also seems= to think that your personal experience is some sort of proof.r: "Proof by personal anecdote" is not a valid form of logic.  
 }You may find>@ }Unix jargon obscure, but the rest of the world does not.  Visit  D You are wrong. *Everybody* except Unix gurus finds Unix CLI commandsC to be not only obscure, but downright stupid. It is not possible tolB even guess what most of them do as they are aparently derived from@ some obsure dialect of Lower Outer Martian (except the ones that* the are named after the programmer's dog).  A Were you to select 10 people of the street at random and ask them1? about a half dozen common Unix commands you'd not find many who A didn't find them obscure (unless you were standing outside of thea> offices of Red Hat or some such place). Most people are barelyB able to understand how to do anything with Windows where they justB have to point and click on objects with names in english and often@ representational pictures as well. These people are "the rest of= the world". Gurus of any sort are a miniscule fraction of thea population.   G }you local Waldenbooks or Borders or Barnes&Noble.  How many Unix/Linuxo) }books are on the shelf??  How many VMS??   C You are making a huge incorrect assumption. You assume that lots ofeD books means "easy to use" and few books means "hard to use". That isC exactly wrong. It *should* indicate to you that Unix is hard to use.A and VMS is easy to use (and less popular - but there weren't lots0B of books about VMS 15 years ago either, back when it was popular).E If Unix were easy to use, would there be so many books explaining how>E to use it? If course not. If something is easy to use, you don't neediG vast numbers of explanations of how to use it. Duh! VMS is easy to use. D It also comes with good documentation. Combine these two things (andF the current relatively small market share) and you get a lack of books about how to use it.  D How many books are there in the local book store that explain how to@ use your TV's remote control? Not many? Gee, it must be *really*? hard to use, and almost imposible to learn how to use it due toV$ the lack of 187 books to explain it.  E And how many books are there in the local book store that explain how D to use your toaster? Not many? Gee, it must be *really* hard to use,B and almost imposible to learn how to use it due to the lack of 187 books to explain it.  E Things that are easy to use do not need lots of books explaing how to 6 use them. Things that are hard to use need such books.  6 }Which one do you think they are likely to recommend?? }  }bill   , The one Bill Gates wants them to recommend.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:51:09 -0500% From: "Islandco" <sales@islandco.com>o$ Subject: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>/ Message-ID: <tafuuaj2i1nha2@corp.supernews.com>r  $ Go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm   Or click on the NAV bar      -- Island Computers US CorporationH 2700 Gregory Streeto	 Suite 150t Savannah GA 31404y Tel: 912 447 6622s Fax: 912 201 0096h sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com  C This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential andaJ may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacy legislation.H They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whomE they are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intendedn
 recipient,G please notify Island Computers US Corp immediately and then delete thiso message.I You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution or copyingr of this message is prohibited.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:00:50 -0800h- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>h( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>, Message-ID: <3AA85572.F805F26C@peoplepc.com>  D Sorry, your price is more than 3 time higher than Kingston, and they have a lifetime warranty !!!  Q http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/kepler/PartsInfo_Bod.asp?ktcpartno=KTV-MS610/4096s    
 Jack Patteeuw9     Islandco wrote:n > & > Go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm >  > Or click on the NAV bare >  > --! > Island Computers US Corporation  > 2700 Gregory Street  > Suite 150  > Savannah GA 31404  > Tel: 912 447 6622v > Fax: 912 201 0096s > sales@islandco.com > www.islandco.com > E > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and L > may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacy legislation.J > They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whomG > they are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended. > recipient,I > please notify Island Computers US Corp immediately and then delete thisi
 > message.K > You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution or copyingD  > of this message is prohibited.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:46:55 -0500- From: "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com>t( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>/ Message-ID: <tagdecapse8a20@corp.supernews.com>   I Yep... maybe .. and Compaq will void warranty on your system with the 3rdrL Party memory inside - we sell Camintonn also - but this price is quite closeD to the third party stuff - close enough where it is worth buying the( DEC/Compaq part number stickered product   Davidt   -- David Turner Island Computers US Corporation. 2700 Gregory Streetc Savannah GA 31404, Tel: 912 447 6622t Fax:912 201 0096 sales@islandco.com: "Jack Patteeuw" <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> wrote in message& news:3AA85572.F805F26C@peoplepc.com...F | Sorry, your price is more than 3 time higher than Kingston, and they | have a lifetime warranty !!! |r |sL http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/kepler/PartsInfo_Bod.asp?ktcpartno=KTV-MS610 /4096g |  |c | Jack Patteeuw  |h |  | Islandco wrote:  | >e( | > Go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm | >o | > Or click on the NAV bar  | >  | > --# | > Island Computers US Corporations | > 2700 Gregory Streetb
 | > Suite 150e | > Savannah GA 31404d | > Tel: 912 447 6622a | > Fax: 912 201 0096r | > sales@islandco.com | > www.islandco.com | >aG | > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential andrA | > may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacyt legislation.L | > They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whomI | > they are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended  | > recipient,K | > please notify Island Computers US Corp immediately and then delete this  | > message.E | > You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution orv copying " | > of this message is prohibited.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:08:46 -0500- From: "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com>i( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>/ Message-ID: <tagenbftv2gh12@corp.supernews.com>e  D Ok - so it ain't that cheap - but compare it to COMpaq's list pricesF (the MS610-EA 2GB list is over $20K and the 4GB (MS610-FA) is over 50K !!!!!)  H There are still people out there who's bosses DEMAND that they buy "Name Brand"  H WE all know memory is memory is memory - in fact - most Compaq memory isJ made by Infineon in Germany or Micron USA - but that little Compaq stickerH on the chips makes the CEO's of major companies feel all warm and toasty inside  
 Whatever ....w   DT     | sales@islandco.com< | "Jack Patteeuw" <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> wrote in message( | news:3AA85572.F805F26C@peoplepc.com...H | | Sorry, your price is more than 3 time higher than Kingston, and they  | | have a lifetime warranty !!! | |  | |n |dL http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/kepler/PartsInfo_Bod.asp?ktcpartno=KTV-MS610 | /4096  | |  | |  | | Jack Patteeuwf | |  | |  | | Islandco wrote:: | | >w* | | > Go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm | | >. | | > Or click on the NAV bari | | >1 | | > --% | | > Island Computers US Corporation  | | > 2700 Gregory Street> | | > Suite 150h | | > Savannah GA 31404> | | > Tel: 912 447 6622u | | > Fax: 912 201 0096  | | > sales@islandco.com | | > www.islandco.com | | >wI | | > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential andrC | | > may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacyo | legislation.I | | > They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity too whomK | | > they are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intendedi | | > recipient,H | | > please notify Island Computers US Corp immediately and then delete this | | > message.G | | > You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution orb	 | copyingk$ | | > of this message is prohibited. |g |o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:33:32 -0800c! From: Don Sykes <don@alphase.com>  Subject: Re: NFS and ODS-5+ Message-ID: <3AA7EC9C.E7F5D076@alphase.com>t  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------A4883640BEE690720D133585) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-asciia Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bity  > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>F Not to NT, but to Unix Solaris. And not using Multinet, but TCPIP. See below...- <p>Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:t' <blockquote TYPE=CITE>comp.os.vmsers --kK <p>(I asked this question on info-multinet but haven't received any answerse yet.)iH <p>OpenVMS Alpha 7.2-1, Multinet 4.3A (but as a CSLG site we could go to	 TCPIP 5.1a <br>if we needed to.)aH <p>Does anybody out there have favorable experience NFS-serving an ODS-5 disk torJ <br>Windows NT/2000 clients?&nbsp; Does the NFS server still hack the file names toQ <br>preserve case, etcetera, as it had to do on ODS-2, resulting in funny-lookingi <br>filenames?</blockquote>sG That depends on what options you use when you mount, map and export thesK disk. As I recall there are a lot of possibliities. One method is to create H a container directory where from VMS the files appear as upper case withI $ indicating an escape sequence in the filename, but from other OS's theyuG appear as case sensitive, multiple dotted file names. If you do not useoM the container option, you can create filenames in VMS that are case sensitive I and appear as Unix or NT style, with a few exceptions, like multiple dots F must be preceeded by a ^ on VMS. Also, if you use this method, be sureH to do a "set process/parse=extended" or you won't see these details from your VMS process.wJ <br>There is a whole discussion on Extended File Specification on Compaq'sb site - see&nbsp; <a href="http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/72final/6536/6536pro_007.html">OpenVMS) Guide to Extended File Specifications</a>nK <br>There are also a lot of little problems you'll encounter, not the leasttM of which is that not all TCPIP services support ODS-5 yet. It's not a trivial  task, but it's do-able.a <br>I hope this helpss <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;L <p>The particular goal here is to let users use PC-based Web editor products anduM <br>save their files to VMS disk, and have the VMS-based web server recognize9 andh3 <br>use the files under the names the users expect.4H <p>Anybody doing this?&nbsp; Does this work?&nbsp; What NFS client on PC do you use?u= <p>Do we have to go to Pathworks or Samba to accomplish this?r
 <p>Thanks,
 <p>-- AlanF <p>PS: While we're at it, anybody know if the CSWS web server includes or" <br>supports FrontPage extensions?R <p>===============================================================================9 <br>&nbsp;Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>K <br>&nbsp;Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL&nbsp;&nbsp;l Phone:&nbsp; 650/926-3056sG <br>&nbsp;Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD,m CA&nbsp; 94309-0210t` <br>===============================================================================</blockquote> </html>w  & --------------A4883640BEE690720D133585- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;m  name="don.vcf"n Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit0' Content-Description: Card for Don Sykesu  Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="don.vcf"s   begin:vcard  n:Sykes;Don.$ tel;cell:Available to customers only tel;fax:415-485-6895 tel;work:415-457-8532n x-mozilla-html:TRUEy org:Alpha Software Express, LLCd8 adr:;;1380 Lincoln Ave - Suite 5;San Rafael;CA;94901;USA version:2.12 email;internet:don@alphase.com! title:Principal Software Engineeru^ note;quoted-printable:Website:  http://alphase.com=0D=0AResume: http://alphase.com/DonsCV.html x-mozilla-cpt:;5904. fn:Don Sykes	 end:vcard1  ( --------------A4883640BEE690720D133585--   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 02:39:30 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: OpenVMS and IEEE 1394 (FireWire)a- Message-ID: <87snkoqf4t.fsf@prep.synonet.com>A  / Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:a  E > It must be 4 or 5 years since "Video on demand" was first touted asoE > the next big thing after cable TV. I remember seeing a room full ofkD > Storageworks kit in a datacentre on a TV article about this. SinceD > then I have seen no offerings in the TV areana that remoptely comeB > close to video on demand. OK, you can get digital TV now and theE > pay-per-view cable channels, but those are not on demand, you stilll6 > have to wait for the start time every 90 mins or so.  D > Is this just a UK based problem, like the slow ADSL uptake, or wasD > the technology really not ready for video on demad (start the show$ > when you want, pause, rewind etc)?  E Well, do the numbers. Ask the engineers how small a 1 hr show *could*l3 be. Let them dream. And how many viewers they want.n  D Mutliply the 2, and you have the bandwith your studio needs. Work it through the network...  B Unless 1000 line, multi GB/sec switches come down to a few dollarsE installed, it has as much chance of flying as a lead pig. Less chance E of making money. It will exist, and does now. But it will be a niche.t The economics kill it.   -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:55:57 +0200 (MET)n1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <01K0YSHUYUQ69N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>   C > Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago?o  G Personally, I don't see much value in this.  If I want unix, there are oE cheaper ways to get it.  :-)  However, if it will keep ALPHA and VMS fG alive, then it's good in that sense.  Note that, in contrast to POSIX, rH this requires 20-year commitments etc---an eternity in the IT world and , the closest you'll get to "signed in blood".   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:06:56 -0600a/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>e( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <3AA7D850.65C6D3FD@applied-synergy.com>w   Alan Greig wrote:  > = > On 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billn > Gunshannon) wrote: > H > >But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeI > >disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not thee > >case. > D > PCSI Install can install multiple products in one go. Not true forF > VMSINSTAL but that's the old not the new. Future VMS layered product: > distributions will be available on one DVD as an option.  = You can install multiple products in one shot with VMSINSTAL:o  & 	$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL * <directory>  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com j   Fax: 817-237-3074k   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:08:02 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081403260.21469-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  5 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:m   >=20G > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.oE > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.t >=20+ > But that has very little to do with VMS !x  C Sure it does.  We were talking about TCO and relative difficulty of B Administration.  Surely installing layered products is a factor of both??   >=20 > ???? >=208 > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=3D[] does ?  J Wait, I thought Unix was the cryptic OS!!  Is that fragment above supposedH to be intuitively obvious to someone with limited VMS experience??  ThisJ goes right back to what I said.  You don't know the shortcuts to Sys AdminG under Unix and I don't know the shortcuts to Sys Admin under VMS.  Thato( doesn't make VMS easier, just different.   >=20G > OK - for VMSINSTAL you have to write a COM-file for each product, buts> > writing 10-20 lines COM-files is not a major problem for me.  J Maybe not for you! But it is totally unneccessary for the FreeBSD install. So, which is easier??e   bill=20t   --=20 J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |C Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  =20B   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:03:00 +0000?- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>n( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA7AD34.3873C2C1@bbc.co.uk>e   David Mathog wrote:n  L >  Actually, it isn't.  Because for Linux or netBSD you're probably going toG > update over the network from an ftp or http server.  And that machine I > probably wasn't loaded from CDs either but was mirrored from some otherrJ > site. And the main site (redhat, whatever) never loaded from CDs either.H > So there's a very good chance that when you upgrade such a machine the6 > software involved will never have gone through a CD.  C OK, maybe you are happy to do this in an academic environment whereaG security is not of prime concern. I would however be worried if my bank K for example was loading the OS for its systems that hold my account details'S or whatever over the internet rather than from a CD received direct from the vendorl via  trusted channels.  E Another thing I wonder is just how secure is this one-touch, start ittU and leave it to finish unix install procedure. I do know that my old uni dept stoppedmM allowing grad students to install Tru64 on their own desktops because someoneoN did it and did not secure the system which got hacked badly. As a result, theyN now have NT on their desktops. Of course, its difficult to keep a grad studentO with an alpha on their desk from root booting if they are determined to fiddle. R Much easier with a VMS cluster satellite setup to require a minimum boot password.   >- > I > This could be done on VMS too, but it would require that Compaq put theoU > software out on the net/web directly.  They do that with ECOs but not with the baser > software.w >l  K Yeah, of course if you could download VMS and LP's I am sure that a hackers 8 LMF pack generator would be posted to the net real soon.   >0 > >eG > >If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use anm5 > >18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.c >iG > OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often,c$ > loaded over the net than from CDs. >f  V Sure, this is an academic thing. Not all computing is done in an academic environment.
 See above.   >e > >nH > >You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but > >you0 > >can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ? > >dI > >I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL's-A > >that could not just run for themselves and the majority of the0# > >VMSINSTAL's can do that as well.e >eQ > Most VMINSTAL's ask you things.  You can usually set it to use defaults though.p >lI > This isn't to suggest that all is sweetness and light in the Unix/Linux I > world.  I upgraded a file server a couple of weeks ago from RH 5.1->6.2rM > and it was very difficult to keep it from wiping all the other disks in thewL > system.  In the end I had to go into the SCSI controller and hide 4 of theI > 5 disks to get it to do what I wanted.  There's also a problem in Linux I > (and WNT) that devices are named sequentially as they are found at boot9C > time instead of by fixed location.  If you lose disk 2 out 5 thenaM > /dev/sdc->/dev/sdb, /dev/sdd->/dev/sdc, and /dev/sde->/dev/sdd.  There willsL > be no /dev/sde.  Apparently Linux kernel 2.4 has some sort of fixed deviceM > name mechanism but the current kernels don't.  As things are now it can getaL > very ugly in this situation when you loose a disk, much worse than on VMS.K > I lost one totally during a reboot to run badblocks, and ended up runningoF > it on the wrong disk before I realized that the iffy device had just > disappeared. >i   Good luck David. --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk2  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those oft MedAS or the BBC.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:41:22 +0100s= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>i( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA7E062.F05B341A@gtech.com>u   Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote: I > > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.jG > > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.. > >.- > > But that has very little to do with VMS !r > E > Sure it does.  We were talking about TCO and relative difficulty ofwD > Administration.  Surely installing layered products is a factor of > both??  : I think switching LP CD's is an insignificant part of TCO.  : And it has nothing to with the OS. It is a ppor packing by6 Digital/Compaq and a site-specific decision to install4 directly from CD instead of from disk or InfoServer.  8 > > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=[] does ? > L > Wait, I thought Unix was the cryptic OS!!  Is that fragment above supposedD > to be intuitively obvious to someone with limited VMS experience??   Yes.  ' PRODUCT - we are working with a producti INSTALL - we want to install * - we want everything( /SOURCE - we want it from this directory  H I can not rigth off my head come up with any more english-like command !  I > > OK - for VMSINSTAL you have to write a COM-file for each product, bute@ > > writing 10-20 lines COM-files is not a major problem for me. > L > Maybe not for you! But it is totally unneccessary for the FreeBSD install. > So, which is easier??   G So you have proved that the FreeBSD install is better than the VMS toola fromF the late 70's and you did not know about the VMS tool that replaced it from the early 90's.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:02:40 -03006) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br6( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <OFD6B56198.4457C85D-ON03256A09.00687800@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  D The people from IEEE made a lot of things good except the POSIX ....  J VMS  + Unix ..... hmmmm .... whant about VMS + NSK (is it POSIX?) or VMS + NT ! !     Regardss   FC        B nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) em 08/03/2001 14:29:34             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come      ( Assunto: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program    8 In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>,)   Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  > H > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSG > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us + > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.s  D    Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:43:21 -0600s* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <0033000018187022000002L022*@MHS>1  ? =0AI joked with the presenter of a recent AlphaServer road show > that given the deployment of various VMS features on Tru64 and? the upcoming full integration of POSIX interfaces into VMS thats> five years from now the only difference we'd see between a VMS> box and a Tru64 box would be the prompt that you looked a (and8 perhaps not even that depending on which shell you used)   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe( > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 1:37 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* > Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program >  > : > In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>,+ >   Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:a > >m? > > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wisep > though VMS: > > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well > should give us- > > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.i > F >    Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago? >=   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2001 14:16:22 -06001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program0 Message-ID: <w53g0go9fu1.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:n  + > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,tB >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> tJ > |> You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but > |> you2 > |> can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ? > H > Yes.  I can select all of the packages I want to install and then justI > walk away.  The installs are totally unattended.  After answering abouthI > a dozen questions up front, the OS install is also totally unattended..k  I Isn't FreeBSD atypically well-organised though? There are many commercialoF unixes which I have no experience with, but the ones I do know are notD really that easy (although you can automate them given more up-front effort).  F VMS has an advantage of sorts because it's one single product; most ofE the tools to administer it are provided. You *can* administer a bunch I of diverse unix platforms very easily and well using tools like cfengine, . but first you have to know that these exist...   Graham -- ,I -------------------------------------------------------------------------l= Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - gta at umn.edu - (612) 624-5040E9 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of Minnesota I -------------------------------------------------------------------------V   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:21:00 GMTa1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <988t3s$2c9f$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7A677.B9E05078@bbc.co.uk>,s0  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: |> h |> s |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:W |> iN |> > First, I can install all of the FreeBSD (my preference for Unix) packagesM |> > from the net.  This means virtually unlimited media size to install from O |> > and availability of current versions at all times.  A smaller, more staticuC |> > subset of the most commonly used packages are available on CD.  |> aK |> So, thats what Inforservers are for. Ah, Compaq don't sell them anymore.e  K And if they did, who was going to buy me one??  Remember, TCO.  So now your=L saying that if i want the same convenience for installs I need to plunk downJ several thousan more $$$.  Oh, but it's a moot point cause they don't sell
 them anymore.A  	 |> Shame.pQ |> I have done several VMS installs for CDRomless VMS boxes via Inforserver boot.6  E Well, when you come right down to it, I can do the entire BSD install=F over the net.  It only requires a floppy drive.  And if you want to goE to the trouble of outfitting the boxes with boot proms, even that cantD be eliminated.  All of that assuming you have at least one other boxE to serve as a host.  It's just more convenient to do the base installo
 from a CD.   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10103081517050.21469-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>  5 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:-   > Bill Gunshannon wrote:9 > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote: K > > > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.rI > > > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.t > > >e/ > > > But that has very little to do with VMS !o > >=20G > > Sure it does.  We were talking about TCO and relative difficulty of F > > Administration.  Surely installing layered products is a factor of
 > > both?? >=20< > I think switching LP CD's is an insignificant part of TCO.  C Only if you consider an Administrators time as insignificant.  If IcC have to babysit every install, it's expensive.  I value my time toot, much to happily sit there doing monkey work.   >=20< > And it has nothing to with the OS. It is a ppor packing by8 > Digital/Compaq and a site-specific decision to install6 > directly from CD instead of from disk or InfoServer.  C Ummmmm.  It has to do with relative difficulty of Administering theeB system.  Installing the OS doesn't accomplish much if I don't also@ install some of the layered packages.  Unless the machine's sole purpose is as a space heater.u  C I get the LP on CD's.  How would it be easier for me to find all ofcE the packages on the CD's and copy them to some disk to install them??lC And who is going to pay for this extra disk??  Infoserver??  Who is.E going to buy me one of those??  Remember, this department doesn't buy F any Compaq equipment.  The only thing that keeps VMS here at all is myC penchant for old DEC hardware and my willingness to put in a littlelH more effort to make them work.  If it were to cost any measurable amountF (and my boss doesn't track my time close enough to see how much time IG spend with them) there would be no VMS here and these machines would be0F in the dumpster.  And, on top of that, the only Infoserver I have everH seen only had one CD drive init so I would still have to swap the disks.     >=20< > > > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=3D[] does ? > >=20L > > Wait, I thought Unix was the cryptic OS!!  Is that fragment above suppo= sediF > > to be intuitively obvious to someone with limited VMS experience?? >=20 > Yes. >=20) > PRODUCT - we are working with a productb > INSTALL - we want to install > * - we want everything* > /SOURCE - we want it from this directory >=20J > I can not rigth off my head come up with any more english-like command !  D Sorry, that's jargon, not english.  As I have said before, it may beF intuitive to a VMS guru, but so is Unix jargon to a Unix guru.  One is6 not necessarily better than the other, only different.   >=20K > > > OK - for VMSINSTAL you have to write a COM-file for each product, butmB > > > writing 10-20 lines COM-files is not a major problem for me. > >=20L > > Maybe not for you! But it is totally unneccessary for the FreeBSD insta= ll.e > > So, which is easier??t >=20I > So you have proved that the FreeBSD install is better than the VMS toolp > fromH > the late 70's and you did not know about the VMS tool that replaced it > from the early 90's.  F So we come back to the same place again after all this wrangling.  VMSG may be easier to Adminster for a VMS guru, but not for an outsider. ThenE exact same is true for Unix.  People complaining about administreringaJ Unix machines just don't know how.  One other upside to the Unix argument.F How many third party books are there being written to sift through allG that documentation and return a smaller simpler set of instructions forrH doing the more common tasks??  There are a number of them for Unix, someL really bad and some really good.  How many are there, good or bad, for VMS?= ?e  I Unix is not necessarily better than VMS and VMS is not necessarily betterMJ than Unix.  They are only different tools for similar jobs.  The big pointJ is, they do compete and VMS is not competing very well in the marketplace.  F Of course, I could be wrong.  Anyone is welcome to come along and show where there are:4   a) more VMS systems in operation than Unix systemsF   b) more VMS systems coming online each month(year) than Unix systemsK   c) more people becoming familiar with and therefore pushing VMS than Unix       in the marketplacea     bill   --=20 J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |C Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  =20o   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 20:49:04 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)h( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <988r80$2c9f$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <9889gn$597@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,5  mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:  |>   |> lI |> OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often, ,% |> loaded over the net than from CDs.   B Actually, with the ready availability of CD burners today the normB is to grab the ISO image of the base package and burn your own CD.A It's faster and easier to install the base system from a bootable'B CD.  The packages are best installed over the net although they to can be done from a CD.  K |> This isn't to suggest that all is sweetness and light in the Unix/Linux  J |> world.  I upgraded a file server a couple of weeks ago from RH 5.1->6.2O |> and it was very difficult to keep it from wiping all the other disks in the a |> system.    H Read my previous comments regarding Linux.  If your only experience withG a Unix like OS is with Linux, you have no experience with Unix.  It wasoK another case of NIH syndrome leading to not doing things in a proven mannertA and adopting a harder, less reliable system just to be different.t   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:03:23 -0500d9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <05YwLUiCKPKt@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  e In article <3AA7D850.65C6D3FD@applied-synergy.com>, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:t > Alan Greig wrote:r >> i> >> On 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill >> Gunshannon) wrote:h >> mI >> >But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeOJ >> >disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the	 >> >case.  >> PE >> PCSI Install can install multiple products in one go. Not true for G >> VMSINSTAL but that's the old not the new. Future VMS layered producth; >> distributions will be available on one DVD as an option.t > ? > You can install multiple products in one shot with VMSINSTAL:a > ( > 	$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL * <directory>  I What that lacks, that is implicit when people ask for a combined install,gF is the ability to ask all questions for all products at the start, andG then walk away and let it do the work.  That is what PCSI brings to the  bulk-install table.a   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:40:06 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <988u7m$2dtn$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:> |> On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill |> Gunshannon) wrote:r |> a |>  J |> >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,J |> >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is. |> oI |> I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMShH |> is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us, |> the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.  A Well, I wouldn't bet on this.  Remember POSIX?? This was going toeB offer the same compatability.  Anyone ever find a package that wasC able to be ported without major re-writes (non-trivial progrma thatmB is.)  I seem to remember people saying that not even shell scriptsB were particularly portabel to the POSIX Shell.  This is a band-aid> at best and not a cure.  The software needs to be legitimatelyB ported to VMS and modified where possible to take advantage of theB VMS way of doing things.  I know I don't have to tell people here, but VMS <> Unix.   |> c, |> What we still need is marketing and apps.  2 And a real blitzkrieg into the educational market.   But I'm not holding my breath.   bill   -- .J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   <   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:43:13 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)G( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <988udh$2dtn$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <gbdfat4sslbba6f85tjn744ko45a4oigdi@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:> |> On 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill |> Gunshannon) wrote:  |>   |> iI |> >But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeaJ |> >disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the	 |> >case.  |> '9 |> PCSI Install can install multiple products in one go.    < That's assuming they are all one disk and not the 10 I got!!  E |>                                                       Not true forfG |> VMSINSTAL but that's the old not the new. Future VMS layered product ; |> distributions will be available on one DVD as an option.   D Sadly, I doubt that DVD's are likely to be supported on my VAX, evenE if I could afford to buy one.  Or is that going to be included in theL7 lab full of Alphas that Compaq is going to donate?? :-(    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:50:38 GMTn1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)v( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <988ure$2dtn$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,r/  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:-6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |> aJ |> > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeK |> > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the>
 |> > case. |> o
 |> PROD INS *o  A This is even more curt and cryptic than Arne's.  And getting real.! close to Unix command syntax. :-)?   |> SF |> You are using the wrong CD :) Better, copy the kits to the root dir  E How does this eliminate the original problem which was having to swap  CD's repeatedly??e  E |> of a scratch disk, and tweek the file names into dependancy order.b  @ And your going to donate this scratch disk??  Remember, VMS only? survives here as long as it has an apparent cost of $0.  No oneS7 here besides myself cares for it one way or the other. l    E |> What would be REALLY nioce would be a little auto-gen snippet thattD |> could be all extracted and appended together to feed autogen once! |> ( we hope...) before starting.,  D I have no doubt that a similar and easier install can be devised forA VMS, the fact is however, it doesn't exist now and I am comparing1A VMS installs to FreeBSD installs now.  The fact that VMS installs = were easier compared to Ultrix-32 V3.0 or that installs underS2 VMS-8.0 will be better doesn't affect sales today.   bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 22:10:20 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <98900c$2dtn$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <$AhEOXhqAYYA@eisner.encompasserve.org>,x<  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:d |> In article <9889gn$597@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:n |> > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> tI |> >>If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use an-7 |> >>18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.  |> > rK |> > OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often, P' |> > loaded over the net than from CDs.r |> .E |> VMS, on the other hand, has some portion of its constituency quitenD |> security conscious, including some government networks that would/ |> never _think_ of connecting to the Internet.   B Having spent many years in the Military followed by a handful with? various contractors, I think I can safely say the only machines @ likely to no tbe connected to the Internet in some way today areC those prohibited by security regulations.  Many of them are running @ some flavor of Unix.  All the BSD's and I assume all the Linuxes can be installed from CD's    > I and I am sure a lot of other people install from CD for the + convenience rather than any security fears.i   |>  D |> Internally, however, that is what Infoservers (see eBay) are for.  D And this Infoserver sells for how much??  Realize that my budget forC keeping VMS in this academic department is $0.  And this InfoservereC has 10 CD drives in it??  No, you say??  Then how does it solve theeB original disk swapping problem??  Oh wait, maybe it has room for a$ $5000 Compaq approved scratch disk!!  	 Sigh.....-   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 22:13:02 GMT11 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)s( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <98905e$2dtn$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <LoK2bMOXUD7G@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>,4  nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:< |> In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>, , |>   Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |> > nK |> > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSoJ |> > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us. |> > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix. |> yG |>    Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago?s |> f  @ Thank you for saying that.  I said the same thing but I have the' feeling nobody here takes me seriously.o   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 22:52:02 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <9892ei$2g2q$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3AA7AD34.3873C2C1@bbc.co.uk>,.0  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: |>   |> r |> David Mathog wrote: |>  O |> >  Actually, it isn't.  Because for Linux or netBSD you're probably going to J |> > update over the network from an ftp or http server.  And that machineL |> > probably wasn't loaded from CDs either but was mirrored from some otherM |> > site. And the main site (redhat, whatever) never loaded from CDs either.-K |> > So there's a very good chance that when you upgrade such a machine then9 |> > software involved will never have gone through a CD.l |> rF |> OK, maybe you are happy to do this in an academic environment where% |> security is not of prime concern. s  I Actually, I thought we were talking primarily about academic environments1L as that's where I am and I am one of the main components of this discussion.  J |>                                   I would however be worried if my bankN |> for example was loading the OS for its systems that hold my account detailsV |> or whatever over the internet rather than from a CD received direct from the vendor |> via  trusted channels.   I I realize he comes from a Unix environment and he is describing somethingnE done on a Unix System in the early days, but I would suggest you takesJ a read of "Reflections on Trusting Trust" by Ken Thompson.  It's available  any number of places on the net.  ? Or you could peruse old issues of  The Risks Digest looking for B articles about trapdoors and timebombs left in legitimate software systems.  G Just because your paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.m   |> rH |> Another thing I wonder is just how secure is this one-touch, start itX |> and leave it to finish unix install procedure. I do know that my old uni dept stoppedP |> allowing grad students to install Tru64 on their own desktops because someone@ |> did it and did not secure the system which got hacked badly.   I Hmmm, let's look at all of this a piece at a time.  Was this a UniversityeK machine or the students own machine??  If the University's then the studentoJ shouldn't have been installing anything on it.  If the student screwed up L and lost important data because of it, seems like the student had a problem.M You can never adequately protect people from their own stupidity.  Of course,hL I fail to see what this has to do with one step installs??  The last step ofJ any install is configuration.  Unless the machine has mindreading hardwareJ installed any system will require human intervention to set up the networkK (even VMS!!)  A major part of this configuration is making sure the machinewK is secure.  Not haveing been there or seen any of these machines or met anyIH of the people, I can still take a real good guess at how the machine wasM hacked. (And this goes back to your blind trust in commercial vendor providedoJ CD's.)  Every commercial Unix I know of ships with sendmail enabled with aG default configuration.  This means at the least it is an ope spam relay K just waiting for discovery an at the worst, a wide open door to root accesstE tot he machine. (Many commercial Unix vendors still ship versions of aJ sendmail that have all the typical buffer over-run problems that have beenF known about since the Morris worm days!!  Commercial vendor != secure)G Of course, a competent Unix Sys Admin knows all this and would not haveyE allowed it to happen.  This is not an indictment of Unix, but of that I university's people who allowed it to happen.  If I let a student installoI VMS on a machine and he makes the SYSTEM password "system", how secure isc the system??  Q |>                                                              As a result, they " |> now have NT on their desktops.   - Oh yeah, that's a real step up in security!!!m    Q |>                                Of course, its difficult to keep a grad studentVR |> with an alpha on their desk from root booting if they are determined to fiddle.U |> Much easier with a VMS cluster satellite setup to require a minimum boot password.n  M I know nobody here wants to hear this, but FreeBSD offers the same protectionaN even when booting off the local disk.  And, BSD boxes can all run diskless (or7 semi-diskless like some VMS boxes) off of a server too.o   |> ? |> > |> >L |> > This could be done on VMS too, but it would require that Compaq put theX |> > software out on the net/web directly.  They do that with ECOs but not with the base |> > software. |> > |> hN |> Yeah, of course if you could download VMS and LP's I am sure that a hackers; |> LMF pack generator would be posted to the net real soon.t  G While it could, why would anyone bother when you can apply for Hobbyist G PAKs anytime you want.  And there is no one looking over my shoulder toeI see if what I am doing is truly hobby or actually commercial work.  To be M honest, I would be surprised if a hackers PAK generator didn't already exist.     J |> > OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often,' |> > loaded over the net than from CDs.i |> > |> tY |> Sure, this is an academic thing. Not all computing is done in an academic environment.n
 |> See above.   E True, and not all academic sites are oblivious to security risks.  We-D actually have it harder sometimes.  We have to protect from securityF risks while simultaneously making use as easy as possible for academicC types who aren't even aware of the security risks much of the time.oF But, I too can see "see above".  There is little reason to assume thatG installing from a vendor provided CD is any more secure than installingmE off the net.  Quite the contrary, actually.  At least with FreeBSD iftD I am paranoid enough to want to spend the time I can look at all theH sources and then build my system fromthose sources I have just examined.F And as you will see if you read Ken Thompson's presentation, even that might not be a true guarantee.   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   k   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 23:01:38 GMTu1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <98930i$2g2q$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <w53g0go9fu1.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>,4  Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> writes:6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |> -. |> > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,E |> >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:o |> > |> M |> > |> You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but- |> > |> you-5 |> > |> can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ?  |> > eK |> > Yes.  I can select all of the packages I want to install and then justlL |> > walk away.  The installs are totally unattended.  After answering aboutL |> > a dozen questions up front, the OS install is also totally unattended.. |> r3 |> Isn't FreeBSD atypically well-organised though? 1  E Isn't one of the arguments against Unix the fact that all of them arem atypical??  :-)e  L |>                                                 There are many commercialI |> unixes which I have no experience with, but the ones I do know are not>G |> really that easy (although you can automate them given more up-frontV |> effort).t  > And, because of the freeness of the BSD style Copyright, there< is no reason why commercial vendors cannot adopt/adapt these- obvious improvements except for NIH syndrome.V   |> LI |> VMS has an advantage of sorts because it's one single product; most ofsH |> the tools to administer it are provided. You *can* administer a bunchL |> of diverse unix platforms very easily and well using tools like cfengine,1 |> but first you have to know that these exist...i  @ But, any experinced Unix Sys Admin worth his salt does.  We have@ technical conferences.  We have peer reviewed journals.  We have? professional societies.  Real Unix people are not pre-pubescentd> hackers trying to get into the school computer to fix grades. = We are real professionals who take our jobs just as seriously> as VMS Admins take theirs. b   bill   -- .J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   b   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:15:03 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program0 Message-ID: <009F8B94.EC262094@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <98900c$2dtn$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:4 >In article <$AhEOXhqAYYA@eisner.encompasserve.org>,= > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:re >|> In article <9889gn$597@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: o >|> > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:  >|> J >|> >>If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use an8 >|> >>18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it. >|> > L >|> > OS, no.  Culture, yes.  Linux and netBSD are as often, or more often, ( >|> > loaded over the net than from CDs. >|> F >|> VMS, on the other hand, has some portion of its constituency quiteE >|> security conscious, including some government networks that would|0 >|> never _think_ of connecting to the Internet. >-C >Having spent many years in the Military followed by a handful withi@ >various contractors, I think I can safely say the only machinesA >likely to no tbe connected to the Internet in some way today aretD >those prohibited by security regulations.  Many of them are runningA >some flavor of Unix.  All the BSD's and I assume all the Linuxese >can be installed from CD's  o >w? >I and I am sure a lot of other people install from CD for the l, >convenience rather than any security fears.  D Again, Bill, I ask, "What medium do you get these unix products dis-D tributed upon?"  There are a great many products in a quarterly dis-- tribution.  Too many to fit onto a single CD.   D FYI, when I was on site at a major candy mfg. about two years ago, aE NT guys was running about with the latest shipment of PeeCee productsaE from Micro$haft.  It dwarfed the quarterly VMS distribution by an or-iE der of magnitude and then some.  So, what I see is you are pissing on E VMS for having too many products?  Or Sony and Philips for not devis- 0 ing a CD standard with greater storage capacity.   >? >|> E >|> Internally, however, that is what Infoservers (see eBay) are for.s > E >And this Infoserver sells for how much??  Realize that my budget fortD >keeping VMS in this academic department is $0.  And this InfoserverD >has 10 CD drives in it??  No, you say??  Then how does it solve theC >original disk swapping problem??  Oh wait, maybe it has room for ad% >$5000 Compaq approved scratch disk!!V >E
 >Sigh.....  B While looking about for storage cases for a number of CD drives, IE happened upon units which look vaguely like InfoServer/InfoTowers butmC for the PeeCee realm.  At one time, I thought DEC over priced their>B offerings, but finding these devices I am now dissuaded to believe* that they weren't gouging all that badly.   B BTW, what's your budget for other platforms?  Just because the uniE won't cough up money for your VMS platforms, you want it for nothing?g That is absurd thinking.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             oO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.e   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 01:50:13 GMTd1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)c( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <989csl$2l8q$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <009F8B94.EC262094@SendSpamHere.ORG>,@  system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: |> gG |> Again, Bill, I ask, "What medium do you get these unix products dis-  |> tributed upon?"    % Some on CD and some over the network.o  G |>                  There are a great many products in a quarterly dis-h0 |> tribution.  Too many to fit onto a single CD.  # I don't deny or begrudge them that.T   |>  G |> FYI, when I was on site at a major candy mfg. about two years ago, alH |> NT guys was running about with the latest shipment of PeeCee productsH |> from Micro$haft.  It dwarfed the quarterly VMS distribution by an or-H |> der of magnitude and then some.  So, what I see is you are pissing onH |> VMS for having too many products?  Or Sony and Philips for not devis-3 |> ing a CD standard with greater storage capacity.-  B I don't deny this either.  But it is not germane to the discussionA at hand.  My argument is with people that say that "Installing LPgB software is easier on VMS than it is on any Unix.  Period.  End ofC discussion" because it just isn't true.  And when I give a concrete = repeatable example the subject changes and all kinds of otherdA conditions that were not part of the discussion are added.  I wasrA merely trying to say that for an experienced Unix Admin tasks are @ just as easy, if not easier on Unix then they are for an equallyB experienced VMS Admin on a VMS system.  Somehow, people here, mostF of whom have little if any experience with Unix systems administration! think this is somehow immposible.    |>  0 |> BTW, what's your budget for other platforms?   5 They spend many thousands of $$ on PeeCees evey year.s  nD |>                                              Just because the uniH |> won't cough up money for your VMS platforms, you want it for nothing? |> That is absurd thinking.l  D I think your missing this point as well.  It doesn't affect me or myF job one bit if they make me throw all my VMS stuff in the dumpster andE never set up another one.  I am not the only one here saying that VMSfE needs to fight it's way back into academia.  And it's not going to belI an easy fight.  But if it doesn't happen, who is going to be the looser??rF Not Unix and not Microsoft.  They are entrenched.  They can sell theirD products without even trying.  Right now, there is no reason for theG University to think about VMS, much less spend even a dime on it.  ThatmH puts the ball firmly in Compaq's court.  If they are satisfied with thisI then so be it.  But don't shoot the messenger.  I'm pointing out reality.hF I didn't put Unix in all those universities so that it became a commonD term in the computing industry.  Believe it or not, DEC is very muchD responsible for that.  Now, if they want it to survive, they need toF use the same strategy with VMS.  Myself and others think this would beF a good thing.  Others appear not to agree as they think that by makingF up ridiculous claims about Unix inferiority that they are going change; this tide.  Which do you think is the more likely scenario.u   bill   -- jJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:37:31 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program5 Message-ID: <1010308221804.3369A-100000@Ives.egh.com>g  % On 8 Mar 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:S  + > In article <3AA7739A.DCF7E66F@gtech.com>,hB >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> tG > |> You claim that you have to switch LP CD's on VMS but not on Unix ?s > |> y > |> That is nonsense !G > K > First, I can install all of the FreeBSD (my preference for Unix) packagesaJ > from the net.  This means virtually unlimited media size to install fromL > and availability of current versions at all times.  A smaller, more static@ > subset of the most commonly used packages are available on CD. >  > |> lI > |> If you have 12 GB of software you will either have 20 CD's or use anP7 > |> 18 GB HD for it. And OS has nothing to do with it.n > K > Well, I haven't actually counted it all up, but I doubt there is anywhere>I > near that much on the LP disks.  They are just badly packaged.  And nottJ > in any logical order.  How many different CD's do you need to look at toI > load: COBOL, Fortran, PascaL, C, Ada.  And that's just compilers.  Evenn  = Answer: 1.  They are all on CD #2.  Along with BASIC and C++.s  C I guess disk 2 is the compilers disk.  I just looked at the current-C CDs (March 2001), and it looks much better organized than I thoughthD it was.  It would help if the master index was organized by categoryG instead of alphabetically.  About 1/3 of the products are "Compaq ...",eB and most of the rest are either "DEC ..." or "Digital ..."  If youJ want to find TCP/IP in the index, do you look for "TCP/IP" or "DEC TCP/IP"C or "Digital TCP/IP" or "Compaq TCP/IP" or "UCX"???  Answer: V5.1 is C "Compaq TCP/IP Services", but V4.2 is "Digital TCP/IP" (Both are onr	 disk #1.)s  I BTW, the menu program is on all the CDs.  You do *NOT* have to sit there o swapping in and out CD #1.  @ You can also bypass the menus entirely and just use VMSINSTAL orB PRODUCT INSTALL directly from the CD directories (which are listed in the index.)    F > on the CD distribution of freeBSD all the compilers are on one disk. >  > |> tJ > |> You claim that you can not leave and VMSINSTAL or PRODUCT INSTALL but > |> you2 > |> can leave rpm (or whatever you use on unix) ? > H > Yes.  I can select all of the packages I want to install and then justI > walk away.  The installs are totally unattended.  After answering aboutsI > a dozen questions up front, the OS install is also totally unattended..i >  > |> tK > |> I do not understand that either. I do not recall any PRODUCT INSTALL'shC > |> that could not just run for themselves and the majority of the4 > |> VMSINSTAL's > |> can do that as well.d > G > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changekH > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the > case.  >  > bill >  > -- nL > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |C > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>     >  >    --   John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:51:32 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program5 Message-ID: <1010308224631.3369B-100000@Ives.egh.com>a  ( On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Tim Llewellyn wrote:  M > Yeah, of course if you could download VMS and LP's I am sure that a hackers,: > LMF pack generator would be posted to the net real soon.  C Why would they bother?  Anyone can join DECUS and get a free set ofo@ PAKs for almost everything, over the net, in minutes.  Remember,; PAKs are an administration tool, not an enforcement tool...e  A P.S.  I'm *not* advocating anyone do this, just pointing out thatrC there are obviously much easier ways to steal licenses than writingl a PAK generator.   -- v John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:18:40 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program5 Message-ID: <1010308230927.3369C-100000@Ives.egh.com>a  ? On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=3DF8j?=3D wrote:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:9 > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:s [...]s< > > > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=3D[] does ? > >=20L > > Wait, I thought Unix was the cryptic OS!!  Is that fragment above suppo= sedoF > > to be intuitively obvious to someone with limited VMS experience?? >=20 > Yes. >=20) > PRODUCT - we are working with a productt > INSTALL - we want to install > * - we want everything* > /SOURCE - we want it from this directory >=20J > I can not rigth off my head come up with any more english-like command !  E You don't need /source if the source is the current directory!  So ito is just:   $ product install *a   --=20A John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:21:54 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program5 Message-ID: <1010308232016.3369D-100000@Ives.egh.com>w  * On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  7 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote:  >=20 > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajh=F8j wrote: L > > > > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weir= d.K > > > > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.r > > > > 1 > > > > But that has very little to do with VMS !l > > >=20I > > > Sure it does.  We were talking about TCO and relative difficulty ofuH > > > Administration.  Surely installing layered products is a factor of > > > both?? > >=20> > > I think switching LP CD's is an insignificant part of TCO. >=20E > Only if you consider an Administrators time as insignificant.  If I E > have to babysit every install, it's expensive.  I value my time too . > much to happily sit there doing monkey work.  9 I read comp.os.vms while waiting for things like thie ;-)i     --=20d John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:54:09 -0500* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program [was Re: Compaq wins supercomputing contract ... 7 Message-ID: <A4Up6.33130$lj4.786711@news6.giganews.com>h  1 [I've changed the subject to be more appropriate]m  : "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> wrote in message# news:3AA7B5DB.755FC732@bbc.co.uk...e  > > Well, they did give you free base licences to use with CSLG,< > maybe they think they that is enough and will get the idea > they can't please academics.  D I must have missed something somewhere. Since when is a base licenseC included as part of the CSLG licenses ? Or is this country specificeD (Because I DO know that ALL of the VMS systems I've installed in theB  last 3 years at (Over 20) education sites (USA) subscribed to the>  CSLG program did NOT get their base licenses as part of their  CSLG subscription.a  D Also, using the base license included in the new educational license< program with the CSLG licenses seems to be a VERY grey area.> (Which several of us asked the folks managing the CSLG program6  about at the CETS2000 session specifically about it.)  G The FAQ at http://www.openvmsedu.com/ seems to say that you can combinea the two:  >     "The OpenVMS Base Licenses are single user (upgradeable to?      multi-user through the CSLG Program). The Layered ProductscA      licenses provide unlimited usage for all users on an OpenVMSw
      system."l  = Doesn't quite match the "Terms & Conditions" (Under "Grants")e  :       The Software may be used on a single computer solely9       for individual and personal "technology enthusiast" ?       purposes, personal education and study, or administrativee4       use in support of the educational institution.       [...] 9       This license is granted to a named individual at ane<       educational institution and not to any public, private9       or governmental institution or entity. However, ther;       Software may be copied and used on multiple computers =       that are under your control in a classroom environment,n;       including use by multiple students who have agreed tod<       these License Terms solely for instructional purposes.  8 Only a lawyer could make sense of this. Is multi-user okC in a classroom ONLY but anywhere else it's one-machine=one person ?r= And what about CSLG usage (Which is only mentioned in the FAQt/ that I can discern (Maybe I just missed it). ??y  / It causes serious cognitive dissonance..... %-)    -Andy-   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:00:03 -0500i3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)n* Subject: Re: Oracle/OVMS7.1 Memory tuning?3 Message-ID: <6iS8eZmsZckL@eisner.encompasserve.org>   8 In article <5nr5atsmfg62764t53mrkilk89o7d7rtsd@4ax.com>,; Netsurfer <netsurfer@sentosa.singaporemail.company> writes:(4 > Just upgraded from 256MB to 640MB on my Alpha4000. > H > Without the original OpenVMS SysAdmin manual for the OpenVMS system, ID > am totally lost in tuning the system after the increase of memory.  A You should be able to use the online documentation available fromh( a link at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/  < > Most of the parameters in MODPARAM.DAT are hardcoded by myC > predecessor, and I don't really know if their values required any0D > modification. Running AUTOGEN don't really help as most of the key > parameters had been fixed.  E Be carefull to have good backups of a known good configuration beforeL, running Autogen or making any other changes.  F Also make sure that there is nothing that you do not understand in the* SYCONFIG.COM file, as AUTOGEN will run it.  G If you run AUTOGEN with @sys$update:autogen getdata testfiles it shoulds3 not make any changes, but it should generate a filel9 SYS$SYSTEM:AGEN$PARAMS.REPORT that may be of help to you.O  A However I would recommend taking an OpenVMS system tuning course.iB See the OpenVMS FAQ, as I believe there are some providers listed.  G > I also having problems with tuning the Oracle 7.3.4, our only DBA hadtF > left our company, and I am a non-qualified stand-in DBA. Where can IH > get help for the SGA parameter tuning, any website with information ofC > such? We don't have any maintenance support contract with Oracle.i  L It is almost impossible to give tuning advice for most systems remotely, and2 especially for one running a database application.  J I would recommend that you look at getting some training on the subject or some experienced help.   -Johna wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:21:49 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> ( Subject: Prolonged power shutdown issues8 Message-ID: <9890mo$5b0$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  K We're about to have a complete power shutdown in one of our computer rooms.n  ? Its scheduled for 12 hours, but with Mr. Murphy, ya never know.b  I Question:  what could be a problem with hw raid controllers (hsz and hsj)eK and they're "remembering" what their storage configurations are/were with ay prolonged outage?g  - Anyone here ever run into problems with this?p   Dave...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:43:28 +0000 & From: Dave <DRichardson@interbaun.com>, Subject: Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues- Message-ID: <3AA81920.1EAC93AC@interbaun.com>   D I believe that there was some discussion [here?] around the DecemberF 1999 time frame [Y2K preparations IIRC] that indicated that some disksF that had been in operation for extended periods should be powered downE for a brief time (5 minutes I believe), then spun up again before the0= extended shut down.  I think that this was to help reduce thenH probability that the landing tracks had crud built up in them that would4 lock the heads to the disk after a longer shut down.   --   Dave Richardson      Dave Gudewicz wrote: > M > We're about to have a complete power shutdown in one of our computer rooms.e > A > Its scheduled for 12 hours, but with Mr. Murphy, ya never know.  > K > Question:  what could be a problem with hw raid controllers (hsz and hsj)tM > and they're "remembering" what their storage configurations are/were with aM > prolonged outage?u > / > Anyone here ever run into problems with this?  > 	 > Dave...    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 18:51:51 -0500e3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)1B Subject: Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues (HSJ/HSZ Controllers)3 Message-ID: <Ii1a$oTdRTwH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   8 In article <9890mo$5b0$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>,7 "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.company> writes: M > We're about to have a complete power shutdown in one of our computer rooms.y >gA > Its scheduled for 12 hours, but with Mr. Murphy, ya never know.d >mK > Question:  what could be a problem with hw raid controllers (hsz and hsj)nM > and they're "remembering" what their storage configurations are/were with a  > prolonged outage?  >t/ > Anyone here ever run into problems with this?   J IIRC: (I Do not have the manuals handy) there is an option to save the theB current settings on a disk unit in the array, so there should be a corresponding restore option.n  L I think that the configuration is stored in NOVRAM also, so it should not beK affected by the power outage.  But I am going from memory, and it is betteri to RTFM.  L Also be sure that you look up the shutdown procedures for the HSZ and HSJ soJ that they will not be unhappy if you happen to be down long enough for the# cache batteries to fully discharge.i     -Johnh wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:16:36 +0000e5 From: "Steeples, Oliver" <Oliver.Steeples@compaq.com>oB Subject: RE: Prolonged power shutdown issues (HSJ/HSZ Controllers)N Message-ID: <F498D199EDB12D468CD2C66680D3080116D52F@reoexc04.emea.cpqcorp.net>  L The config is saved to NVram on the HSx but the best thing to do is to get aL spare disk (or spareset member ) and do an INIT DISKxxx SAVE_CONFIG and then9 1/2 pop the disk out as then the data cant't go anywhere.p  D The proper shutdown procedure is to do SHUTDOWN OTHER, SHUTDOWN THISI Then if it's an HSx30/40 the batteries have to be disabled by pulling the E cache boards out and installing the jumer (very messy).  If it's a 50oB onwards then the button on the cache SBB can be pressed to stop it discharging.   	Oliver    -----Original Message-----D From: malmberg@encompasserve.org [mailto:malmberg@encompasserve.org]' Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:52 PMe To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B Subject: Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues (HSJ/HSZ Controllers)    8 In article <9890mo$5b0$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>,7 "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.company> writes: F > We're about to have a complete power shutdown in one of our computer rooms. >tA > Its scheduled for 12 hours, but with Mr. Murphy, ya never know.  >nK > Question:  what could be a problem with hw raid controllers (hsz and hsj)iK > and they're "remembering" what their storage configurations are/were with  ao > prolonged outage?  >n/ > Anyone here ever run into problems with this?e  J IIRC: (I Do not have the manuals handy) there is an option to save the theB current settings on a disk unit in the array, so there should be a corresponding restore option.   L I think that the configuration is stored in NOVRAM also, so it should not beK affected by the power outage.  But I am going from memory, and it is betterl to RTFM.  L Also be sure that you look up the shutdown procedures for the HSZ and HSJ soJ that they will not be unhappy if you happen to be down long enough for the# cache batteries to fully discharge.h     -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 03:44:51 -00000 From: "Storm Imaging" <info@storm-imaging.co.uk> Subject: Re: RWAST question-/ Message-ID: <tagkeb24oo2u00@xo.supernews.co.uk>o  
 Hi Alfred,  L I may be talking rubbish here as it's about 5 years :-( since I last did any VMS but0  L 1 ) I'm sure that a company called Eigen provide a utility to identify RWAST processes and rectify them  K 2) You can identify the resource by doing something like the following (I'm  very rusty)t   ANAL/System  Show Summary, Set Index= (Index of process in RWAST state) Show channel  @ The active channel is the resource that  is causing the problem.  % I await to be shot down in flames :-)n   -- Regardsi   Craig Cookee www.storm-imaging.co.ukv      - Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote in messagee3 news:Xns905E6332993D2falkarcabca@205.233.108.180...c7 > What sort of things cause a process to go into RWAST?1 >B > Here's the situation:hK >    AlphaServer 800 5/500, 512MB, OVMS 7.2, Multinet 4.3 clustered DSSI/NIt' >    This machine has only 4 functions:u >       PMDF mail server' >       Russell Calendar Manager server  >       DNS E >       Advanced Server 7.2 (minimal usage, typically <3 connections)m > F > When mail usage get very heavy (as during the recent Anna Kournicova attack) I > the Russell Calendar Server goes into RWAST.  It comes back eventually,l butiJ > not before a lot of clients get timed out, very much to the annoyance ofG > users.  Process quotas for this server process appear to be more than  > adequate.t >sJ > I believe the physical resources are also adquate.  I suspect that there isI > some global resource that get grabbed by the the PMDF server and crowdse outeE > the RCM server.  If this makes sense, what should I be looking for?i >xB > ----------------------------------------------------------------B >   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.caB > R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185- >   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road*3 >                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadao! > http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4y" > http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:15:39 -0500d3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) E Subject: The ANY key - Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 3 Message-ID: <Te006utkCU6E@eisner.encompasserve.org>   0 In article <009F89C4.0D4F4BA4@SendSpamHere.ORG>,? system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:d< >> "Lyle W. West" <lyle.west@childrenshc.org.nospam> writes: >>|> Then there is the:  >>|>= >>|> 	Press any key to continue,  press any other key to quite >>H >>Does nayone else here remember a company that made PD Keyboards calledG >>"Anykey Inc."??  They actually made a keyboard for a while with a keyoF >>labeled "ANY".  I wonder if I have one of them still floating around  >>to take a digital picture of?? >yG > Don't remember that but at a DEXPO in the early '90s I picked up somesF > keyboard buttons from a company that made custom labeled keytops.  II > got several {Panic} buttons (red) and several {Any Key} buttons (blue).cH > On my Alphas, I replaced all of the {Break} keys (F5) with the {Panic}G > buttons just so that when I was away I could have my wife play remotesF > operator for me.  The red key made it easier to get her to press the > {Break} key. >tF > I recently came across the blue {Any Key} keytops.  If I get time, IF > will install them on my keyboard and place a picture on my web site.H > The big question for this group is, which key should be the {Any Key}?   The CTRL key of course.y   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion OnlyM   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:29:02 GMTd8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)D Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?6 Message-ID: <24Rp6.28$S91.585@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>  0 In article <tafe9s6sjasl9b@news.supernews.com>, / wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:t ..F >We just installed Enterprise Toolkit here on one of our Alphas.  The I >installation failed, because Macro-32 was not installed on the box.  It -J >seems some products assume that Macros-32 is always installed - which is  >not alway the case. >nL >The collateral damage was even worse. We booted from CD to run the OpenVMS L >installation again (this time including Macro-32), and then spent hours re-H >applying patch kits, since it over-wrote the OpenVMS base installation  >itself!  H First, why did you INSTALL again?  Recent versions of the OpenVMS Alpha K operating system CD-ROM offer to RECONFIGURE in this scenario.  RECONFIGUREtI would not have required re-installing patches.  My appologies if you have ? an older version that does not have this functionality working.R  F Second, why did you exclude MACRO to begin with?  I strongly recommendG that you include *ALL* the options when you install or upgrade OpenVMS. J There are many cases where excluding an option can result in an unexpected loss of some funtionatlity.h  E If you are concerned about disk space, buying a larger disk is a much  better solution.  I If security is a concern, I think you can protect MACRO from unauthorized-5 access without having to exclude it from your system.0  7 Are there any other reasons to exclude part of OpenVMS?u   -- lK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:06:04 -0500o- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> D Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?2 Message-ID: <3AA7BBFC.1C23F9D9@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Warren Spencer wrote:  > F > We just installed Enterprise Toolkit here on one of our Alphas.  TheI > installation failed, because Macro-32 was not installed on the box.  It J > seems some products assume that Macros-32 is always installed - which is > not alway the case.   E As more background for this one...  The Enterprise Toolkit includes aa? newer version of the debugger (to provide a debug server).  ThehE debugger's installation wants to link onsite.  It has a small MACRO32iH program that assists in creating the onsite linker options file (I don'tB know more of the details).  The debugger's requirement for MACRO32F wasn't passed along from the debugger folks to the Toolkit folks until after the release.   -- O John Reagani Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:07:05 -0000.- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)bD Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?/ Message-ID: <tag0k9ofmnhndc@news.supernews.com>e  ; hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) wrote inL, <24Rp6.28$S91.585@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>:   1 >In article <tafe9s6sjasl9b@news.supernews.com>,  0 >wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes: >.. G >>We just installed Enterprise Toolkit here on one of our Alphas.  The sI >>installation failed, because Macro-32 was not installed on the box.  IttG >>seems some products assume that Macros-32 is always installed - whichC >>is not alway the case. >>D >>The collateral damage was even worse. We booted from CD to run theE >>OpenVMS installation again (this time including Macro-32), and theneF >>spent hours re- applying patch kits, since it over-wrote the OpenVMS >>base installation itself!p >rI >First, why did you INSTALL again?  Recent versions of the OpenVMS Alpha t@ >operating system CD-ROM offer to RECONFIGURE in this scenario. ? >RECONFIGURE would not have required re-installing patches.  My @ >appologies if you have an older version that does not have this >functionality working.   A Well, I didn't do the work myself.  But the guy who did used the 'I "reconfigure" option - not sure why this lead to re-patching.  He's very aF experienced in OpenVMS, and had Q on the phone during these issues. I 1 suspect Macro32 is a "special case" of some kind.s  G >Second, why did you exclude MACRO to begin with?  I strongly recommenddH >that you include *ALL* the options when you install or upgrade OpenVMS.@ >There are many cases where excluding an option can result in an' >unexpected loss of some funtionatlity.  >tF >If you are concerned about disk space, buying a larger disk is a much >better solution.r > = >If security is a concern, I think you can protect MACRO from C >unauthorized access without having to exclude it from your system.h > 8 >Are there any other reasons to exclude part of OpenVMS?  J As I understand it, Macro32 is a layered product, not a core component of K OpenVMS, and therefore is optional.  It was excluded simply because it was iF not needed (or so it appeared at the time) - a reasonable practice in K large-scale commerical installations.  The Enterprise Toolkit did not list -B it as a dependancy, which would appear to be a shortcoming of the I documentation.  I believe Q is correcting this now since we logged a few  # problem calls during this exercise.Z   Thank you for your response.   ws   -- <1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>r   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:29:15 GMTn5 From: danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook) D Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?- Message-ID: <slrn9ag264.3ld.danco@pebble.org>   2 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:07:05 -0000, Warren Spencer <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote:n  L > As I understand it, Macro32 is a layered product, not a core component of % > OpenVMS, and therefore is optional.d  F Macro-32 is a core component.  Macro-64 is the layered product (and is# now on the OpenVMS freeware cdrom).n   - Dane   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:58:25 -0000n- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)nD Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?/ Message-ID: <tag3khqkgjdve5@news.supernews.com>e  8 danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook) wrote in# <slrn9ag264.3ld.danco@pebble.org>: o  3 >On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:07:05 -0000, Warren Spencer   ><wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote: >oI >> As I understand it, Macro32 is a layered product, not a core component.) >> of OpenVMS, and therefore is optional.n > G >Macro-32 is a core component.  Macro-64 is the layered product (and ism$ >now on the OpenVMS freeware cdrom). >  >- Dan  . uhmmm, why is it optional in the install then?   ws   -- i1 << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>o   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press  ? ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **r   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:27:13 GMTt5 From: danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook)-D Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?- Message-ID: <slrn9ag5iq.3ot.danco@pebble.org>d  2 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:58:25 -0000, Warren Spencer <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote:r  H >>Macro-32 is a core component.  Macro-64 is the layered product (and is% >>now on the OpenVMS freeware cdrom)..  / >uhmmm, why is it optional in the install then?e  < Okay, it was obviously inappropriate for me to write "core." Sorry about that.t  ? It's part of OpenVMS itself and not a separate layered product.   @ I guess I've just never gotten so picky and choosy on an OpenVMSI installation that I would go to the extra effort of deselecting Macro-32.a  	 Silly me!o :-)e   - Dan>   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.135 ************************