1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 09 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 136       Contents:# - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?  Advocacy Website Woes  Re: Alpha Diamond ForumsA Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? A Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins? H Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a globalP Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global logical# Re: blade vs. DS10 on "mybenchmark" & Re: Command procedure for opening port1 Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How? 5 Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How? 5 Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How? . Re: Dates (was Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing) DCPS update  Re: DCPS update  Re: DCPS update & December Alphas and December Forms :-)* Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)* Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN  Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations   Mod_Perl won't let go of a file. Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  NFS between VMS systems  Re: NFS between VMS systems  Re: NFS between VMS systems , Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program + POSIX (was RE: OpenVMS Educational Program)   Re: Possible security hole in...  Re: Possible security hole in...' Q: How to tell whether a process exists + Re: Q: How to tell whether a process exists ' Q: How to tell whether a process exists + Re: Q: How to tell whether a process exists + Re: Q: How to tell whether a process exists ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE  Write CD on PC for OVMS Read  Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read  Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read  Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read  Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read  Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read [Q] subroutine library source   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:28:26 -0600 # From: medleyb@ev1.net (Bert Medley) , Subject: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?4 Message-ID: <905F6E4CFmedleybev1net@158.234.153.155>  K Or is there a possible O/S toolkit to build an emulator on top of Dos like   Cygwin for UNIX?   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:52:28 +0200 (MET) 1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <01K100F3CSW49N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>   L > Or is there a possible O/S toolkit to build an emulator on top of Dos like > Cygwin for UNIX?  H There is a VAX emulator which runs on Intel---search for "Charon-VAX".  ! You can then install VMS on that.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:22:15 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?< Message-ID: <Xq7q6.1723$G76.2746134@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> wrote in message- news:01K100F3CSW49N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de... I > > Or is there a possible O/S toolkit to build an emulator on top of Dos  like > > Cygwin for UNIX? > H > There is a VAX emulator which runs on Intel---search for "Charon-VAX".# > You can then install VMS on that.   ( Charon-VAX also runs on Alpha chips now.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 17:02:46 GMT 2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?, Message-ID: <98b2bm$m95@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  Z In article <905F6E4CFmedleybev1net@158.234.153.155>, medleyb@ev1.net (Bert Medley) writes:L >Or is there a possible O/S toolkit to build an emulator on top of Dos like  >Cygwin for UNIX?   G There's a VAX emulator around which you can run on windows and run VMS  
 within it.  D Or you can wait for Microsoft to finish cannibalizing VMS technologyC which should be done by Windows 2010 or so.  Apparently they have a L contractual right to all of it, although what, if anything Compaq is gettingH in return is a mystery to me. For instance, have a gander at the clusterI documentation in W2K - it's full of very familiar stuff, quorum disks and 
 the like.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:21:45 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> Subject: Advocacy Website Woes< Message-ID: <tq7q6.1722$G76.2745936@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 > > news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org... F > >> By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey: > >> (too late, which is why they sent the email version). > > ? > > Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey.  > 1 > Are you saying the questions will be the same ?   H Nope. Assuming that the Working Group adheres to the same methodology weC used for the just-completed cycle, the site will be open to solicit J comments, suggestions, etc. Once all the raw data is collected, it will beK analyzed and aggregated to produce a list of questions which will go into a G survey. User group members will be able to vote on the top 5 (or top N)   issues they deem most important.   > ? > Personally, I was hoping they might fix the web site by then.    That would be nice.    > > > Are you saying there is no hope the web site will be fixed ?  H Nope, but the design and management of the site is under the aegis of anL outside contractor. Complaints or suggestions re: the site are best directed$ to webmaster@compaqworkinggroup.org.   cheers,    terry s    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:45:57 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>! Subject: Re: Alpha Diamond Forums 7 Message-ID: <wN7q6.53$S91.1931@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>   
 Dear Dave,  I I am sure there will be additional Diamond Forums this year they are just  not scheduled yet.   Sue   < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message2 news:98915g$5dv$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com...J > Thanks Sue.  Does this Forum make its way to other parts of the country? > 	 > Dave...  > ? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message 3 > news:QoSp6.31$S91.1130@gazette.loc1.tandem.com...  > > Dear Newsgroup,  > > H > > On March 20th (Rocky Hill CT) and 21st (Waltham, MA) there will be a > CompaqI > > AlphaServer Diamond Forum, please see attached for details. These are D > > executive level events where futures and strategy are discussed.5 > > http://38.159.189.203/compaq/eventinfo.asp?ID=161  > > , > >  (URL works from Netscape and Explorer). > > I > > If you have been to an OpenVMS Diamond Forum this is similar but also  has  > > Alpha and Tru64 content. > > K > > This is not a technical event and would be a good one to encourage your  > > management to attend.  > >  > > Warm Regards,  > >  > > Sue  > >  > >  > >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:08:16 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>J Subject: Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?* Message-ID: <3AA8FFF0.B120A063@uk.sun.com>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > J > "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> factually stated in message& > news:3A9BEF25.B52DED8F@uk.sun.com... > > Carl Perkins wrote:  > > >  > > > K > > > It is also the case that they *have* done some work to solve the cost K > > > problem. You can buy a fully functiounal DS10 system running VMS in a L > > > decent configuration for under $8000. Compare this to the cheapest VMSF > > > based system you could buy 5 years ago and I think you'll find a > reduction J > > > in the entry level system cost of nearly a half. It would be good if > theyE > > > could cut it in half again, but they may not think that this is  > necessary. > > >  > > 7 > > This sounds great but isn't because the market that 5 > > OpenVMS operates in has moved much further than a 6 > > halving in cost for an entry level system over the > > same five year period. >  > Point well taken!  >  > > 7 > > Just to put the OpenVMS DS10 pricing in perspective 5 > > you can get a SunBlade 100 with Solaris 8 for 995  > > dollars. > I > Not quite apples to apples, but it *is* 500MHz system to 500MHz system.  > > 7 > > Alternatively if you really want to spend 8,000 you & > > could buy a 750 Mhz SunBlade 1000. > M > If and when any UltraSparc III parts show up. Haven't heard of any presence L > in the channels, and the USIII-based systems remain "constrained" on Sun's0 > Web site. Not for much longer, one would hope.    H The SunBlade 1000's and the 280R are shipping now. The customer I adviseG just got a number of SunBlade 1000's to do their standard build testing  on.    Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:33:01 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>J Subject: Re: Alpha: game over.  Was RE: Future outlook for OpenVMS admins?< Message-ID: <1B7q6.1724$G76.2750331@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in message $ news:3AA8FFF0.B120A063@uk.sun.com...   >  > J > The SunBlade 1000's and the 280R are shipping now. The customer I adviseI > just got a number of SunBlade 1000's to do their standard build testing  > on.  > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architect   I That is definitely Good News for Sun. And its customers and stockholders, G too.  Wouldn't look good to announce the UltraSparc III-inside midrange > UE-boxes on 21 March if the processors remained "constrained."   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 15:54:46 GMT % From: afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.com Q Subject: Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global * Message-ID: <98auc6$k5o$1@news.netmar.com>  < In article <3AA7AB5C.B2EE0A6A@jpmorgan.com>, Andrew G Scott % <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> writes: D >I want to extend the value of a logical, which is set up in a group3 >login.com file, by referring to the logical again.  > " >In Unix I would do this like his: > & >PATH=/home/my_home/an_extra_dir:$PATH > " >How do I achieve the same in VMS? > I >I HAVE achieved it but the outcome is not what I expected or understand.  >The line in my login.com is:  > ! >$ define/nolog          mosource . >MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],-1 >                                        MOSOURCE  >  [...] B You have created a circular definition. Try the following command:   $ DEFINE/NOLOG MOSOURCE - - MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],-  'F$TRNLNM("MOSOURCE")'   G NOTE: If you change the /GROUP definition of MOSOURCE, that will not be G reflected in the /PROCESS definition unless you rerun the command above L afterwards. I don't know if your Unix command works the same as that or not.   Alan E. Feldman  afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.com       O  -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  ----- M   http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups I    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts L made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abuse@newsone.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:28:28 +0000 2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: Assigning logicals in login.com. How to extend the value of a global logical . Message-ID: <3AA8A23C.6E37E3E7@CCAgroup.co.uk>   Robert Deininger wrote:  > = > In article <3AA7AB5C.B2EE0A6A@jpmorgan.com>, Andrew G Scott & > <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> wrote:  > > The line in my login.com is: > > $ > > $ define/nolog          mosource1 > > MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],- 4 > >                                         MOSOURCE >   > Look at HELP LEXICAL F$TRNLNM. > , > I think you want to do something like this > $ > $ define/nolog          mosource -2 >    MOSSUSERS_DEV01:[USERS.ASCOTT.AN_EXTRA_DIR],- >    f$trnlnm("mosource")   C A little more complicated I'm afraid, to handle the case where it's  already a searchlist:   / $ max_index = f$trn("mosource",,,,,"max_index")  $ i = 0 ' $ eqv := mossusers_dev01:[users.ascott] ) $ if max_index.eqs."" then $ goto eqvdone - $eqvloop: eqv := 'eqv','f$trn("mosource",,i)'  $ i = i + 1 ) $ if (i.le.max_index) then $ goto eqvloop " $eqvdone: def/nolog mosource 'eqv'   Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:30:29 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> , Subject: Re: blade vs. DS10 on "mybenchmark"8 Message-ID: <6qbhatcr9afe2bskb5826ptartn9q8gudb@4ax.com>  @ On 8 Mar 2001 20:34:38 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) wrote:    < >Note that contrary to some of my former statements the UnixC >machines are not (apparently) all using file caching to obtain the J >speeds obtained on /tmp - but caching on the drive itself is enabled. TheM >test file created by maketest is 8326000 bytes long - do the math to get the  >actual write speeds observed.    E I think you can enable disk hardware caching using the sys$etc:*scsi* E utilities - unsupported of course. If true you might want to try this 0 if anyone can provide the appropriate arguments.   > L >The STREAM benchmark for a Blade 100 is about 4 times lower than on a DS10,I >but the $1000 "vanilla" blade still moves data to disk (or at least the tJ >memory cache on the disk) many times faster than heavily optimized IO canI >on a DS10 running VMS.  And it does it using an ATA disk. A DS10 runninggK >Linux or Tru64 - and using uw or u2w scsi, is faster than a blade though. s >(No big surprise there.)  >eK >I don't expect shame (or anything else) from Compaq management, but I hopel> >that the folks in VMS engineering are suitably red faced thatG >this el cheapo Sun system just wiped the floor with the VMS DS10 with n" >respect to disk IO.  (And price.) >u	 >Regards,  >n
 >David Mathog  >mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu@ >Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech K >**************************************************************************e >b8 >This is a table showing MYBENCHMARK speeds on a variety: >of platforms.  Times shown are in seconds.  The tests are9 >from the MYBENCHMARK suite which measure various aspects , >of "disk" I/O and file caching performance. >  >  >Tests to local disks:T >     maketestf    mystart       myread        mysplit      Disk  OS        HardwareE >Notes      maketest      myopenin      myopen        mysplitbinary  TQ >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------ec > 2   -     0.33   0.01   0.01   0.17   0.17   0.41   1.14  /tmp  Linux64   Blazer Itanium (666Mhz) c > 3   -     0.42   0.00   0.00   0.28   0.24   0.64   0.62  /tmp  RH 7      Proliant 550 (450Mhz)  sc > 5   0.90  0.40   0.00   0.00   0.20   0.20   0.70   1.30  /tmp  SunOS 5.7 Ultra60 (360 Mhz)       e >18   1.50  0.30   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.20   1.50   1.30  /tmp  SunOS 5.8 Blade 100 (500 Mhz)       c > 7   2.90  0.20   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.10   0.50   0.30  /tmp  Tru64     DS10L (466 Mhz)        sc > 9   3.40  0.20   0.00   0.00   0.10   0.10   0.60   0.30  /tmp  Tru64     DS20 (500 Mhz)          b >12   1.46  0.29   0.00   0.00   0.14   0.11   0.40   0.37  /tmp  RH 6.2    DS10 (466 Mhz)        d >16   -     0.43   0.01   0.01   0.30   0.64   1.10   0.97  RAM   VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)h >11  19.85  1.36   0.02   0.01   0.20   4.46   7.76   7.94  local OVMS7.3FT DS10L (466 Mhz)(FASTRMS)    d >15   -     1.77   0.02   0.04   0.47   9.05  16.62  14.38  local VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)d >14   -    26.46   0.11   0.01   0.54   7.75  46.51  39.10  local VMS 7.2-1 DS10 (466 Mhz) (Vanilla)i >17  12.18  9.51   0.13   0.18   6.13   9.21  19.61  16.27  local VMS 7.2   VAX 4000/100   (FASTRMS,RAID)t >r >Tests to networked disks:T >     maketestf    mystart       myread        mysplit      Disk  OS        HardwareE >Notes      maketest      myopenin      myopen        mysplitbinary  SQ >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------yc > 1   -     2.29   0.01   0.01   1.14   1.40   5.49   4.67  NFS   Linux64   Blazer Itanium (666Mhz)yc > 4   1.20  0.70   0.00   0.00   3.60   0.50   1.70   3.80  NFS   SunOS 5.7 Ultra60 (360 Mhz)       c > 6   3.50  1.50   0.00   0.00   0.10   2.10   6.00   4.70  NFS   Tru64     DS10L (466 Mhz)        ec > 8   3.50  1.40   0.00   0.00   0.10   2.20   6.20   4.70  NFS   Tru64     DS20 (500 Mhz)         ok >10  35.57 34.33   0.03   0.02   0.20   5.55  43.27  40.24  MSCP  OVMS7.3FT DS10L (466 Mhz) (FASTRMS)      g > G >1. Linux64 on a Blazer Itanium (666Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system. 4 >Using /home (NFS mounted from spe253) . 08-FEB-2001 >gG >2. Linux64 on a Blazer Itanium (666Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.  >Using /tmp . 08-FEB-2001g > F >3. RedHat7 on a Proliant 5500 (450Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system. >Using /tmp . 08-FEB-2001a > G >4. SunOS 5.7 on an Ultra60 (360 Mhz) - the Caltech ITS "clyde" system.p' >Using /home (NFS mounted). 02-MAR-2001d >tF >5. SunOS 5.7 on an Ultra60 (360Mhz) - the Caltech ITS "clyde" system. >Using /tmp. 02-MAR-2001 >eD >6. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.D >Using /usr/bin/time on the login directory which is on /home, which5 >in NFS mounted and served from "spe253". 08-FEB-2001e >wD >7. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.7 >Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001.' >MAKETESTF: Creating test file, fortran  >-C >8. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS20 (500Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.tD >Using /usr/bin/time on the login directory which is on /home, which5 >in NFS mounted and served from "spe253". 08-FEB-2001d >eC >9. Tru64Unix 5.1 on a DS20 (500Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.-7 >Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001-' >MAKETESTF: Creating test file, fortran0 > N >10. OpenVMS 7.3 field test on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.B >Using USER1 login directory which is served from VMSSERV which is> >an AlphaServer 1200 5/400 and the device is a DEC RZ1CB-CA.  0 >FASTRMS variant of these programs.  08-FEB-2001 >-C >11. OpenVMS 7.3 on a DS10L (466Mhz) - the Compaq testdrive system.bB >Using $2$DKA100, which is a SCSI disk on "spe202".  Using FASTRMS >variants.  09-FEB-2001D >0A >12.Redhat 6.2 on a DS10 (466Mhz U2W disks) - my "barrel" system,O7 >Using /usr/bin/time on the /tmp directory. 08-FEB-2001w >fB >14. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system.+ >RMS set to defaults.  No FASTRMS settings.  >tB >15. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system.( >RMS set to defaults.  FASTRMS settings. >nB >16. OpenVMS 7.2-1 on a DS10 (466 Mhz U2W disks). "seqaxp" system.5 >RMS set to defaults.  FASTRMS settings. On a RAMDISK. >>D >17. OpenVMS 7.2, VAX 4000/100, no VIOC or third party disk caching,D >and all storage connected via standard 8-bit internal SCSI-1 bus toH >a Infrotrends RAID array OpenVMS 7.2 on VAX 4000/100.  FASTRMS variant.E >RMS block=0/buffer=0/extend=64.  Barry Treahy, Jr. <treahy@mmaz.com>h >n@ >18. SunOS 5.8, Sun Blade 100, 128Mb RAM, UltraSparcIIe 500 Mhz,= >by Brian Stretch (bstretch@mindspring.com).  Similar resultseF >reported by Paul Joslin (paul.joslin@suncor3.sdrc.com). 08-MAR-2001. G >Note that mysplit results reproted by both testers showed user:0.3 andb8 >sys:0.1, leaving the other .9 seconds unaccounted for.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:32:45 +0000l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o/ Subject: Re: Command procedure for opening portA8 Message-ID: <79chatom2vfdfvl0dj3bf816kb6ngcigmt@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:57:53 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >GSM User wrote: >> iK >> I am need of figuring out how to setup a command procedure for reading alM >> file and sending the commands out on a certain port either using telnet orn) >> somehow opening a socket for the port.e >t >HELP TELNET CREATE_SESSIONy >m >or  >TELNETo >Telnet> HELP CREATE_SESSION >a >,K >You can use that command to open the TCPIP connection , and that creates af: >device you can then open/read/write to with DCL commands.  F Or if you need more flexibility use kermit together with its scripting	 language.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:21:03 GMT*5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org>-: Subject: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How?. Message-ID: <3AA8CAAC.9D057E2@childrenshc.org>  	 Hello allc  B I have two PWS 500au boxes. One is a bit older and is a productionH machine. The other I just recieved this morning... I don't have hardware, enough to complete the new machine.... yet.   H I am hoping, for the time being, I can hook the serial ports together inH such a way, that I can create a window on my first machine that will act1 as a serial console port on the second machine...a  C This way I can boot the second machine from CD-ROM (I have a CD-ROMm= drive) and compare the hardware (CLUE CONFIG) with the first.m  E Will I need a 9 pin cross over cable? or a straight through? Do I usen serial port 1 or serial port 2?n   How do I establish the window?     TIA  -- l Lyndon F. Bartelsa VMS Systems Administrator  Childrens Hospitals and Clinics  lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)t 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:41:25 +0200 (MET)i1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> > Subject: Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How?3 Message-ID: <01K106B6509A9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>   J > I am hoping, for the time being, I can hook the serial ports together inJ > such a way, that I can create a window on my first machine that will act3 > as a serial console port on the second machine...   H Two ideas.  One: Do you need the console on the old machine, or can you I spare it for a while?  Two:  What a shame you don't have a real terminal g lying around somewhere.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:00:13 +0100. From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>> Subject: Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How?, Message-ID: <98b8ut$b30$1@news.inet.tele.dk>  @ Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> wrote in message( news:3AA8CAAC.9D057E2@childrenshc.org... >sG > Will I need a 9 pin cross over cable? or a straight through? Do I use1! > serial port 1 or serial port 2?  >r  > How do I establish the window? >   I You will need a cross-over (aka null-modem) cable for the connection, seer for exampleo  2 http://www.shadownet.com/hwb/ca_Nullmodem9to9.html   for more information.e  L You don't mention the VMS version on your older system, but I assume you canK find out the VMS device name of the port you wish to use, some machines use ? TTxx, others use OPxx. On not too old VMS versions, you can saya       $ set host/dte <ddxx>6  L to make your older system act as a terminal emulator on the newer system. If1 this is not available, KERMIT might be an option.        Best regards     Jesper Naur    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:32:35 GMT,% From: afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.comr7 Subject: Re: Dates (was Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing)a* Message-ID: <98b7k3$4f5$1@news.netmar.com>   Hello,  I When you get into the particulars of timekeeping, things get surprisingly K involved as the following discussion shows (my comments are interspersed ine the following quotes:).F  8 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote: > Alfred Falk wrote: > >t> > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in& > > <3A971A4A.83B74895@earthlink.net>: > >n > > >Bill Todd wrote:e > > >>C > > >> Tom Wade <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam> wrote in messagea. > > >> news:BAtl6.2784$PF4.8121@news.iol.ie... > > >>
 > > >> ... > > >>I > > >>   And in case you think you know enough Latin to remember which isf > > >> > which,oJ > > >> > do you know if 12 PM is 00:00 or 12:00 ? (a rhetorical question - > > >> > I don't want or > > >> > need to know).a  B It's very simple: 12:00 PM means noon and 12:00 AM means midnight.   > > >>E > > >> My vague recollection of Latin is that such knowledge does notr > > >> answer the question.k > > >   > > >Well, actually yes it does: > > >p > > >P.M. = Post Meridiam  > > > 8 > > >Phase I English Translation: "after (the) meridian"H > > >Phase II English Translation: "after the sun crosses the meridian". > > > E > > >The key word there is "sun". If it's *AFTER* the sun crosses the G > > >meridian (or perhaps more correctly, while the sun is crossing thesK > > >(nearest) meridian (to the East of your position, unless you're at thedK > > >meridan)), then 12:00 (12:00 P.M.) can only be during the light hours.w  G I believe that David is referring to 12:00 p.m. as the entire 60-secondoJ interval from 12:00:00 to just shy of 12:01:00, in which case his argumentL makes perfect sense. That interval is past noon except for the first instantI at 12:00:00.0000.... Thus it makes sense to have 12pm be considered to be J noon. It also makes sense because a digital clock that displays only hoursJ and minutes will show 12:00 for that entire 60-second interval, and anyoneD looking at the clock during that 60-second interval would say its 12 o'clock.   > > >  > > >A.M. = Ante Meridiam0 > > >.9 > > >Phase I English Translation: "before (the) meridian"eI > > >Phase II English Translation: "before the sun crosses the meridian".s > >oH > > Tut! ;-)  Your Latin's a teensy bit rusty.  Actually it's "ante/post, > > meridiem".  "Meridiem" is mid-day, noon.  J All right, enough archaic stuff already. This ante/post meridiem stuff wasE invented hundreds of years ago. It's time to move on!!! It's the 21st18 century! Maybe we should go back to Hollerith cards! ;-)  M Now, despite what it says in www.time.gov's FAQ (they're living in the past),eL it is entirely sensible to make the convention that 12PM is noon and 12AM isK midnight. Moreover, this quite-sensible convention has already been adoptedcA by those who make VCR's, digital clocks (which appear in numeroustI appliances), and by the New York City subway schedules (although they duesG specify 12:01AM instead of 12:00AM in Service Change notices -- no harm  done.)!n  D Here are the reasons that 12:00 PM is noon and 12:00 AM is midnight:  K 1.) The typical digital clock shows 12:00 for the entire 60-second intervalmL mentioned above, therefore, it makes perfect sense to have 12:00 noon be theM same as 12:00 PM, since, as I stated above, more than 99.99% of that interval]H is clearly past the instant known as noon (and this argument is only forL those who insist on sticking to the strict translations of AM and PM). WouldL it make any sense to have that zero-length interval (known as an instant) be= 12:00 AM followed after even the smallest interval of time byCM 12:00:00.000000000000...1 PM? And to have the rest of that 60-second interval L be 12:00 AM which would be followed by 12:01 PM? What sense would that make? NONE I say!.  K 2.) It makes sense if you consider the AM/PM to be just another column (theaK minutes are in a column, the hours are in another column), but it is out ofo6 order. But so what? Dates are often out of order too.   N 3.) Anyone who has programmed a VCR or set a digital clock knows that 12:00 PMM means 12 noon. Should we make a law demanding that all appliances that have atL digital clock show 12 noon for the instant of noon and 12:00 PM for the nextM 59.99999... seconds? Shall we have the clock display 11:59 AM for 60 seconds,cI followed by 12:00 AM for 60 seconds, followed by 12:01 PM for 60 seconds?  That would be ridiculous!!!   M The archaic definitions of am and pm are just that, archaic, and they are notmG relevant to our "modern" world, and therefore should be replaced by theiK entirely sensible convention that has already been adopted by digital clock_< makers, and the New York Transit Authority (the NYC Subway).   >  > "Tut"? Wasn't he Egyptian? >k
 > > [snip], > > 24-hour time is the only sensible way... >t > Agreed - I find it useful...  N Yes, the 24-hour time system is useful, but there should be some authoritativeH body that should recognize the sensible AM/PM convnetion I have outlinedK above, in which case the AM/PM system wouldn't be so bad. But it is already"C the de facto standard anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter except for  discussions like this one!  M There is a loose end, however: "I'll meet you there Friday at midnight." Does M this mean at the end or at the beginning of Friday? I think most people would K think it meant at the end of Friday, that is, during "Friday night". But in0M 24-hour lingo that would be Friday 2400, which I think actually is not in theyJ 24-hour system, but I may be wrong about that. One can always be too vague: about things, though, and in this case make it more clear.   Alan E. Feldman  afeldman@gfigroup.elsewhere.comm (removes	 elsewhereh from e-mail address)      O  -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----cM   http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups3I    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts L made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abuse@newsone.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:52:57 -0500y0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> Subject: DCPS updateK Message-ID: <paul.r.anderson-BDE970.09525709032001@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>l   Dear fans of DCPS,  0 OpenVMS Engineering is pleased to announce that:  F   - A field test of DECprint Supervisor (DCPS) V2.0, called DCPS F2.0,     is now available.sA   - Starting with DCPS V2.0, the DCPS-OPEN and DCPS-PLUS licenses E     will no longer be required.  The rights to use DCPS Open and Plus 7     features will be included with the OpenVMS license.m  E The major feature of this release is new printer support.  DCPS F2.0 e( adds support for the following printers:  &   - HP LaserJet 2100, 4050, 8100, 8150    - HP Color LaserJet 4500, 45509   - Lexmark Optra S 1250, 1255, 1650, 2450, 2455, Se 3455o%   - Lexmark Optra T610, 612, 614, 616i"   - Tektronix Phaser 740, 750, 7801   - Xerox DocuPrint N2025, 2125, 2825, 3225, 4025*  E Additional printers may be added for the final release of DCPS V2.0, e which is scheduled for Q2.  I If you are interested in participating in the field test, please send me  # mail at paul.r.anderson@compaq.com.d   Paul   -- l,    Paul Anderson, OpenVMS Engineering (DCPS),    Compaq Computer Corporation, Littleton MA   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 16:56:19 GMTe2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) Subject: Re: DCPS update, Message-ID: <98b1vj$m95@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ~ In article <paul.r.anderson-BDE970.09525709032001@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> writes:B >  - Starting with DCPS V2.0, the DCPS-OPEN and DCPS-PLUS licensesF >    will no longer be required.  The rights to use DCPS Open and Plus8 >    features will be included with the OpenVMS license.   <SNIP>  F Hey, for once a real move (as opposed to blather or the ridiculous newG educational program) that takes VMS in the right direction.  Compaq hastI finally seen fit to allow VMS to print without making the users pay extra1K for it!  And the list of newly supported printers looks good too.   Now all A DCPS needs is the appletalk transport bundled in (because in some0K environments the printers don't even have TCP/IP addresses) and the ability7H for end users to easily add printers and it will be just about perfect.   K Unfortunately this is too late for us, as we're migrating off VMS, but good / news for those who can still afford to use VMS.1   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 13:40:25 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)- Subject: Re: DCPS update3 Message-ID: <NJ5iBkyaBWaL@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  a In article <98b1vj$m95@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:0 > In article <paul.r.anderson-BDE970.09525709032001@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com> writes:C >>  - Starting with DCPS V2.0, the DCPS-OPEN and DCPS-PLUS licenses0G >>    will no longer be required.  The rights to use DCPS Open and Plus)9 >>    features will be included with the OpenVMS license.3 >  > <SNIP> > H > Hey, for once a real move (as opposed to blather or the ridiculous newI > educational program) that takes VMS in the right direction.  Compaq hasrK > finally seen fit to allow VMS to print without making the users pay extraCM > for it!  And the list of newly supported printers looks good too.   Now alliC > DCPS needs is the appletalk transport bundled in (because in someBM > environments the printers don't even have TCP/IP addresses) and the abilitytJ > for end users to easily add printers and it will be just about perfect.   K Yes, PAP would be great (although I use it from the Appletalk product now).6  G One important cosmetic effect of the licensing change just announced is/H to chip away at the image of nickel-and-diming customers to death (sorry for the US-centric idiom).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:09:20 +0000d From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>e/ Subject: December Alphas and December Forms :-) ) Message-ID: <3AA8C7FD.652E1D0F@Omond.net>U  1 Just had to laugh at the following job posting ont' http://www.jobserve.co.uk with a searchi string of VMS !o               December Alpha ExperteD           December Alpha expert with intensive knowledge of Open VMS' running on December Alpha equipment andiH           be able to support applications written in a mixture of Oracle# 7/8, Cobol and December Forms. SomeSH           knowledge of networking is essential, too,primarily TCP/IP but- a smattering of LAT. Ideally with developmentSE           expertise. Experience of more general systems - Wintel, NT,C. Unix etc. this would be an good advantage. TheC           role will include a limited amount of 2nd line support onv general systems.A           Type: Contract Location: North West Start: ASAP Posted:a- 08/03/01 16:44:09 Reference: JSNIBA/34109/DEC0     :-))) and *sigh* ...  	 Roy Omondm Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:02:54 +00000% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 3 Subject: Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-).8 Message-ID: <iurhatsvpp4r16pchn2028h6f5hjmvduil@4ax.com>  D On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:09:20 +0000, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:  2 >Just had to laugh at the following job posting on( >http://www.jobserve.co.uk with a search >string of VMS ! >V >7  >          December Alpha Expert  E It's even worse than that. Do a search on their site for december andnE vms and it finds 8 hits! Some are duplicates but either they have the.? thickest typist imaginable or some software auto expands DEC toyF December. A search for december alone finds such gems as December-UNIX etc...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:28:37 +0200 (MET)P1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>03 Subject: Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)t3 Message-ID: <01K101O5EPVK9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>   G > It's even worse than that. Do a search on their site for december and G > vms and it finds 8 hits! Some are duplicates but either they have thenA > thickest typist imaginable or some software auto expands DEC toDH > December. A search for december alone finds such gems as December-UNIX > etc...   NOW I get it.  :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 14:12:59 GMTd1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)o0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later+ Message-ID: <98aodb$8n0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>>  * In article <989cfn$usc$1@lisa.gemair.com>,2  jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes: |>K |> This is ridiculous.  You clearly don't understand how GNAT, married witho |> the GCC backend works.   E Sure I do.  It works the same as every other frontend married to GCC.oF The only difference is that you don't need a Fortran Compiler to buildA G77 or a Pascal Compiler to build GnuPascal or a native mode Java D Compiler to build GnuJava.  And the primary reason for this was thatB Gnu made these compilers because these compilers were rare on mostE systems while a C compiler was not.  The original NYU project carriedoC this ideal through.  As soon as the government money dried up and aeH commercial interest took over, this ideal was abandoned.  Maybe I'm justF paranoid, but I don't believe in coincidence and I have never believedD the Gnu Public Virus was going to accomplish the things they seem toE think it would.  While I admit GNAT lives up to the letter of the GPLhF I think efforts have been made and are continuing to make possesion ofD the source meaningless in most cases.  I haven't tried recently, butD I did try building one or two of the versions since it changed to anE Ada frontend.  I was never successful.  On the other hand, I have andiH continue to build all the other GNU language processors with no problemsG at all.  realizing that Ada is hardly mainstream and in many cases less5H known than evan VMS (see, I got thisone back on topic!) making it harder< to use is probably not going to contribute to it's survival.  bH |>                        You can cross compile the GNAT system onto anyH |> system on which GCC is supported.  It's not particularly difficult to: |> have GCC generate object code for any supported system.  , And this is somehow easier than just typing:!   make bootstrap LANG="ada c c++"t ??  A OK, it wasn't quite this easy, but it was a whole lot easier than ( setting up a cross-compiler environment.   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   c   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:31:47 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)b0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <C2xKI+Iptiv1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <OF15E80CC1.19D31B85-ON88256A0A.001160A0@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: > F > That model only works for some languages. Anybody who writes a BASICL > compiler in BASIC, or a Java JIT compiler in Java needs to be removed from > the gene pool.....  I Just convince them to use the resulting compiler to redo their automotivet engine control :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:30:15 -0500m9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)s0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later3 Message-ID: <yZMHXMyUfXrr@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  ` In article <9893oh$2g2q$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:N > In article <rdeininger-0803011139570001@user-2iveaj3.dialup.mindspring.com>,7 >  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:D > |> aI > |> Robert Dewar could give an authoritative answer to this, but I don'toO > |> believe they ever implemented their whole compiler in C.  I think it was arM > |> small, bootstrapping subset of Ada implemented in C.  That was enough tos: > |> allow the remaining implementation to be done in Ada. > E > Sadly, all of the old versions seem to be gone from NYU's ftp site. D > I have not tried compiling it since ACT took over, but I know thatC > the original and early versions from NYU were entirely in C.  It W1 > was quite common then to have to roll your own.s  G The _people_ who organized the original development at NYU are the same I ones who founded (and still run ACT), so the changes you see are more dueh8 to the passage of time than the change of organizations.  K If you want old versions, you might be able to get them from WWW.CDROM.COM.eE Of course those of us who subscribed all along, rather than dependings> on getting software over the Internet, are better situated :-)  C > |> I think a sensible person porting GNAT to a new platform would O > |> cross-compile.  Compile to intermediate form on the existing platform (foraJ > |> example the point where the GCC back-end takes over), and do the codeE > |> generation on the new platform, using whatever native backend isrM > |> available.  That doesn't sound vitrually impossible to me, and I believepL > |> it has been done with GNAT several times.  Some work may be required toO > |> extract the appropriate intermediate form into appropriate files, transfer0O > |> the files to the target system, and load the info into the back-end's data  > |> structures. > C > But the difference is that in the early versions you could do thewB > whole thing with a single "make" command.  Today, that option is: > gone.  A major step backwards in the portability realm!!  I If you are not changing the compiler, you might as well use a precompiledeH binary.  You cannot "just compile" for a machine unless a code generator" has been written for that machine.  N ==============================================================================N Great Inventors of our time: Al Gore -> Internet; Sun Microsystems -> ClustersN ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:52:13 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010309094208.01fb7a28@24.8.96.48>  > At 07:12 PM 3/8/2001 -0800, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:  E >That model only works for some languages. Anybody who writes a BASIC!K >compiler in BASIC, or a Java JIT compiler in Java needs to be removed frome >the gene pool.....e  J Sure some languages aren't that well suited for this, though a plain Java F compiler written in Java wouldn't be unreasonable on a platform built I around MAJC (if there are any). I'd not like to write an APL compiler in aG APL, or a postscript compiler in postscript, but Ada seems a perfectly 0* reasonable language to write compilers in.  J Dunno about BASIC, though. BASIC Plus on RSTS/E would've been an adequate I compiler implementation language (though not a great one) except for the nI hoops one would've needed to jump through due to memory limitations. But e that's just a quibble.  7 >Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> on 03/08/2001 02:05:10 PM9 >% >To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >cc: > 2 >Subject:  Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later >h > 3 >At 03:56 PM 3/8/2001 -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrote:AI > >In article <9887es$2222$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edun > >(Bill Gunshannon) writes:2 > > > In article <3AA6EADB.455E15F7@infopuls.com>,2 > > >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > > > |> > > > |>L > > > |> Having the compiler written in the same language as it is compilingF > > > |> is an advantage if the language is better suited for compiler > > > |> constructionn > > > G > > > Your assuming here that Ada is somehow superior at this task.  Ano > > > opinion I don't share. > >fJ > >But I do.  I think we should all agree that the method chosen by peopleJ > >who were actually willing to do the work is superior to methods that inI > >theory would be chosen by those sitting around chatting in a newsgroupt > >without doing the work. >eK >It's also not unreasonable to expect that the folks writing a compiler fornL >a language are especially fluent in that language, thus generally making itJ >a good choice of implementation language. (Better an Ada compiler writtenK >in Ada by people fluent in Ada than one written in C by folks who can justh >get by in C...)     					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------c2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunkI   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 08:19:25 -0700r1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)c0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later, Message-ID: <Pnm0J2Uky1O+@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  4 In article <C2xKI+Iptiv1@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  j > In article <OF15E80CC1.19D31B85-ON88256A0A.001160A0@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: >> dG >> That model only works for some languages. Anybody who writes a BASICtM >> compiler in BASIC, or a Java JIT compiler in Java needs to be removed fromh >> the gene pool....., >   I    I recall hearing that the VAX BASIC compiler was written in VAX BASIC.t  +    This may just be an urban legend though.   % ps. Where is Kirby Altman these days?a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:53:22 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later+ Message-ID: <98b8r2$g0c$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>F  , In article <Pnm0J2Uky1O+@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>,4  nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:7 |> In article <C2xKI+Iptiv1@eisner.encompasserve.org>, aA |>    Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:- |> -m |> > In article <OF15E80CC1.19D31B85-ON88256A0A.001160A0@foundation.com>, Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes:P |> >> J |> >> That model only works for some languages. Anybody who writes a BASICP |> >> compiler in BASIC, or a Java JIT compiler in Java needs to be removed from |> >> the gene pool..... |> > i |> DL |>    I recall hearing that the VAX BASIC compiler was written in VAX BASIC. |> t. |>    This may just be an urban legend though.  B The scariest one I ever heard was the Commercial PC COBOL compiler< that the vendor claims is written in, you guessed it, COBOL.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:12:35 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN8 Message-ID: <uvahat412cr574slij410pi1isr9447mr7@4ax.com>  / On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:59:01 -0500, John Reagan " <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> wrote:   >dB >At Digital, BLISS-32 first appeared in 1976.  BLISS-36 (replacingA >BLISS-10) appeared in 1978.  BLISS-16 cross-compilers (replacing-  D And here is where DEC went wrong. Bliss-10 was free. Bliss-36 was soA expensive that nobody bought it or became familiar with it unless$4 absolutely necessary for a task. Same with Bliss-32.   >BLISS-11) about the same time.1 >nE >Ron wrote a "History of BLISS" that was submitted to be printed in atG >journal (I forget which one), but it was returned as "too long" (it isnC >123 pages).  I've asked Ron if he might consider posting it here.   >  b   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 21:17:30 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votet- Message-ID: <87lmqfxes5.fsf@prep.synonet.com>l  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  L > you voted on the questionnaire that was open for voting until March 5, youI > can now go back and view the results, e.g. the percentage of votes eachtN > ballot item received. You cannot view the free-form responses; these will be0 > collected and summarized and forwarded to CPQ.  F Think you could sling a copy this way? I think I'll pop a fuse if I go near that one again...   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:37:17 -0500*9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)*' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote-3 Message-ID: <b+qIy7yHd+MF@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  c In article <3aa84496.87708706@news.telocity.com>, StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood) writes:eD > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:42:08 -0500, Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net> > wrote: > ? >>In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, o# >>terryshannon@mediaone.net says...t >>> J >>> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 >>> news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org... G >>> > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey ; >>> > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).  >>> N >>> Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issueN >>> submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first survey9 >>> cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.org  >> >>! >>What? The April 2000 responses?f >>That's all I could find. >>7 >>I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.p > B > It says to view results.  It has been stated previously that the4 > Compaq responses will be posted at a later date.   >  > 3 > View RESULTS of the Issue Prioritization Ballots  D >   If you voted on a ballot, click here to view its final results.  >  o > here =F > http://www.compaqworkinggroup.org/advocacy/Surveys/SurveyRanking.cfm  > I get nothing but a login box with either your URL or Terry's.   I will agree with Karl.i  7 >>I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.a  C Why don't the folks responsible for the web site just join right inmB the conversation here and explain how JavaScript will "enhance the% user experience" of viewing results ?f   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:39:14 -0500t9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votek3 Message-ID: <rJuy0M6sXJum@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  s In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:S > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org... D >> By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey8 >> (too late, which is why they sent the email version). > = > Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey.y  / Are you saying the questions will be the same ?s  = Personally, I was hoping they might fix the web site by then./  < Are you saying there is no hope the web site will be fixed ?   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:40:24 -050009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)D' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votee3 Message-ID: <yjLc$LB8hWAT@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  c In article <3aa84496.87708706@news.telocity.com>, StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood) writes:oD > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:42:08 -0500, Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net> > wrote: > ? >>In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, t# >>terryshannon@mediaone.net says...c >>> J >>> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message1 >>> news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org...eG >>> > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest surveyD; >>> > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).- >>> N >>> Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issueN >>> submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first survey9 >>> cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.orge >> >>! >>What? The April 2000 responses?e >>That's all I could find. >>7 >>I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.h > B > It says to view results.  It has been stated previously that the4 > Compaq responses will be posted at a later date.   >  > 3 > View RESULTS of the Issue Prioritization Ballots -D >   If you voted on a ballot, click here to view its final results.  >  l > here =F > http://www.compaqworkinggroup.org/advocacy/Surveys/SurveyRanking.cfm >  >  > Steven P. Underwood,DNRC > Whitinsville,MAt > StevenU@POBoxes.com.  H Since it worked for you, why don't you post the results to the newsgroup so we can discuss them ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:55:04 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votes< Message-ID: <s17q6.1717$G76.2734586@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagel' news:87lmqfxes5.fsf@prep.synonet.com...s8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >cJ > > you voted on the questionnaire that was open for voting until March 5, you K > > can now go back and view the results, e.g. the percentage of votes eachuH > > ballot item received. You cannot view the free-form responses; these will be 2 > > collected and summarized and forwarded to CPQ. > H > Think you could sling a copy this way? I think I'll pop a fuse if I go > near that one again...  I I'm not aware of an easy way to extract *all* the requisite data from theeI site. I suspect that a final report will be generated and disseminated ini
 early May.  K The Web site was designed for Windoze and Java access, which of course does L not meet the needs of VMSers who have no access to lesser OSes. FYI the ITUG0 (Tandem User Group) Web site works the same way.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 11:43:54 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)a' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote 3 Message-ID: <nfO3Zz1AnrDP@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  s In article <s17q6.1717$G76.2734586@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:i > ; > "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ) > news:87lmqfxes5.fsf@prep.synonet.com...s9 >> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:a >>K >> > you voted on the questionnaire that was open for voting until March 5,  > youoL >> > can now go back and view the results, e.g. the percentage of votes eachI >> > ballot item received. You cannot view the free-form responses; thesel	 > will ben3 >> > collected and summarized and forwarded to CPQ.  >>I >> Think you could sling a copy this way? I think I'll pop a fuse if I gos >> near that one again...- > K > I'm not aware of an easy way to extract *all* the requisite data from thedK > site. I suspect that a final report will be generated and disseminated inn > early May. > M > The Web site was designed for Windoze and Java access, which of course doesNA > not meet the needs of VMSers who have no access to lesser OSes.e  J Or for those who secure their web browsers in those other environments !!!  G Certainly VMS people who think they have easy administration (see otherrL thread) will often choose to avoid the malware d'jour in other environments.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:54:33 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Votel< Message-ID: <dV7q6.1727$G76.2759690@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message- news:nfO3Zz1AnrDP@eisner.encompasserve.org...(H > In article <s17q6.1717$G76.2734586@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >p= > > "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message + > > news:87lmqfxes5.fsf@prep.synonet.com...u; > >> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:m > >>J > >> > you voted on the questionnaire that was open for voting until March 5, > > you I > >> > can now go back and view the results, e.g. the percentage of votes  eachK > >> > ballot item received. You cannot view the free-form responses; thesee > > will bem5 > >> > collected and summarized and forwarded to CPQ.r > >>K > >> Think you could sling a copy this way? I think I'll pop a fuse if I goe > >> near that one again...  > > I > > I'm not aware of an easy way to extract *all* the requisite data fromw theuJ > > site. I suspect that a final report will be generated and disseminated in > > early May. > >eJ > > The Web site was designed for Windoze and Java access, which of course doesC > > not meet the needs of VMSers who have no access to lesser OSes.h >tL > Or for those who secure their web browsers in those other environments !!!  < The truth from One Who Knows Whereof He Speaks (LJK/Secure).   >lI > Certainly VMS people who think they have easy administration (see othero@ > thread) will often choose to avoid the malware d'jour in other
 environments.o  , I won't argue that fact. T'is something thatL webmaster@compaqworkinggroup.org should be apprised of, since said Webmaster5 probably does not lurk in this sector of Usenet-land.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:30:25 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations< Message-ID: <lE%p6.1695$G76.2561209@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message& news:9MAR200100222034@gerg.tamu.edu...   <snip>I > }you local Waldenbooks or Borders or Barnes&Noble.  How many Unix/Linux + > }books are on the shelf??  How many VMS??c >gE > You are making a huge incorrect assumption. You assume that lots ofnF > books means "easy to use" and few books means "hard to use". That isE > exactly wrong. It *should* indicate to you that Unix is hard to use=C > and VMS is easy to use (and less popular - but there weren't lots-D > of books about VMS 15 years ago either, back when it was popular).G > If Unix were easy to use, would there be so many books explaining how-G > to use it? If course not. If something is easy to use, you don't need<I > vast numbers of explanations of how to use it. Duh! VMS is easy to use.DF > It also comes with good documentation. Combine these two things (andH > the current relatively small market share) and you get a lack of books > about how to use it.  L I wrote "Introduction to VAX/VMS" back in 1983-84 after less than six monthsI exposure to the OS (the book is now in its fifth edition and I am told iteL has sold well over 100K copies). I sincerely doubt that I could have writtenC an equivalent book about any Unix variant given a similar six-month'	 exposure.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:01:13 +0100b= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA88DC9.C5A8A26F@gtech.com>u   Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:   > > Are FreeBSD a huge success ? > C > I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendorsS? > listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery.f( > Realize this is just a quick snapshot.  < I just looked at the commercial software vendor list. Mostly7 small unknown companies. It did not say "succes" to me.e  + > > > #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??f > >n1 > > Yes. DEC OSF/1 = Digital Unix = Compaq Tru64.A > E > Another case of throwing out a proven product with over a decade ofwH > development behind it in favor of an untested re-write.  How far aheadG > would thay have been if they had not gone back to the beginning againiL > but instead had continued on with the development of their solid product??  G > > Ultrix only ran on VAX and the MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. DECo$ > > OSF/1 was introduced with Alpha. > F > Ultrix heritage goes further back than that.  I have recently helpedG > with a revival of Ultrix-11 which does a real good job of getting thee' > most out of some really slim systems.i > J > Ultrix could have been ported to the Alpha in a fraction of the time andH > effort that was put into writting OSF1.  And it would have already hadK > the advantage of all the bugs that had been squashed during it's previousa > lives.  H I do not think I have ever heard many complaints about the Ultrix -> DEC OSF/1t move.   H I have heard a lot of complaints about DEC OSF/1 not being ported to VAX$ and MIPS based DEC-stations/systems.  N > > > #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix)C > > >      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.  > > D > > I know that many agrees. If not for other reasons, then just for > > the troubles in the switch.  > 6 > Thr trouble in the switch was trivial in most cases.  C There were definatetly some cases where porting was a huge problem.y  H > > >                                                    Solaris 1 neverN > > > existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple versions > > > of SunOS.D > >-I > > SUN used the names Solaris 1.0 and 1.1. We can call them SunOS 4.x if> > > you prefer.  > E > They were SunOS.  The Solaris name was added afterwards.  All of myB > CD's say Sunos 4.1.?.l   And ?a  , If SUN calls it Solaris 1.1, then it exists.  H In the VMS world we talked a lot about UCX 3.x and 4.x, because the nameG "Digital TCP/IP" never really catched on. But we would never claim thatK "Digital TCP/IP" never existed.-  J >                       Again, a marketing ploy intended to decieve peopleK > into thinking there was a history to Solaris.  Internally, there was onlyl) > the minimum of similarity between them.s   Ofcourse. BSD->SYSV.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:07:50 +0100:= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA88F56.A853955D@gtech.com>r   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3AA7AE9C.EF04A181@bbc.co.uk>,.2 >  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:@ > |> agreed, in academia cost of ownership is not such an issue, > H > Excuse me??  That may fly at MIT, but that's not where the majority ofG > students are going.  Smaller schools account for a much larger numberAF > of grads than the big named ones anymore.  And I can assure you they6 > pinch every penny twice before it goes out the door.  ) I think you should read his statement as:t  C "In academia they look a lot on price (but not on TCO) when buying"   M > Start becoming??  What do you think we (myself included!!) have been sayingc8 > here for so long??  VMS is all but gone from academia.  8 There are still some educational systems left using VMS.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:04:30 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>g" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA88E8E.B47F3FB3@gtech.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3AA7A749.19C83CCF@gtech.com>,5B >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:pQ > |> > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SuncS > |> > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server via Q > |> > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,eL > |> > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server byN > |> > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendsQ > |> > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen.s > |> >S > |> > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combined-R > |> > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelyR > |> > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug it: > |> > into another, and instantly be back where you were. > |>B > |> So it is more like what in the PC world would be a "dedicated! > |> PC-Anywhere-client system" !  > J > Sounds like a commercial implementation of VNC to me.  I've used it hereH > for both PC and Unix sessions. It's nice to be able to start somethingI > here at work and then leave for home and pick it up again in the middlei > after supper.l  * Since VNC is a PC-Anywhere clone, then ...   Arne  H PS: I also prefer VNC, because it works on other platforms than Windows.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:03:17 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA88E45.71217238@gtech.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,jB >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> Brian Wheeler wrote:nS > |> >                                                        In general, we've hadoU > |> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200r > |> > with RA81/RA82 disks) > |> > |> RA81's sucks !. > D > Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room an > inferiority complex.    I am amazed that they still run.  H 11-12 years ago I knew a VAX 8650 where the RA81's had a MTBF of approx. 1 year !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:21:41 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <bu7hatsvd5hshvtk7c0f2aptnc8p66om5u@4ax.com>  / On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:43:48 +0100, Arne Vajhjy <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:w   >Brian Wheeler wrote: O >>                                                        In general, we've had Q >> more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200. >> with RA81/RA82 disks) >l >RA81's sucks !p  A They especially sucked glue if I recall correctly :) Or maybe I'mSF mixing them up with the RPO7 washing machine. I definitely recall a FS6 report sheet with diagnosis as "glue sucked into HDA".   >Arnew   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:23:06 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <768hatkto9q6ac9tavtfld7196820ug9na@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 23:45:52 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) wrote:  * >In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,A > Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:- >|> Brian Wheeler wrote:R >|> >                                                        In general, we've hadT >|> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200 >|> > with RA81/RA82 disks)G >|>  >|> RA81's sucks ! >eC >Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room an  >inferiority complex.a  F Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be economical to" keep RA8x disks online these days.   >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:31:57 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>b" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <jq6hatou6f2fhbiq4474crtri9a0j9470f@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 23:33:19 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billh Gunshannon) wrote:  9 >In article <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>,-) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:: >|> J >|> MVS! What could be easier than $ MCR AUTHORIZE MODI USER/PASS=password >:8 >How about: adduser userid "" "" "John Q. User" password >rD >With the two placeholders being for login groups and login class if. >you choose to provide other than the default. >s >|> D >|> Most sites will create a simple DCL menu for tasks such as these >|> anyway.> >a2 >And this is different (or easier than) Unix how??  C Because DCL is easier to get to grips with and more consistent thannC the wide variety of shells and differing command syntax across UnixL> implementations.. Frequently the changes are just enough to beC dangerous and, at best, force constant typing of "man something". Ih> guess after 20 years you get used to this. I just think you've@ forgotten over the years and you are now a bit like a tight-ropeF walker telling people it's as easy to cross the wire as it is to walk.   >|> G >|> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,hJ >|> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basicJ >|> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableG >|> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2a >|> D >|> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fully" >|> available in about 5 minutes.  >eD >Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too.C >But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine.   F Ok, on an XP1000 you should be able to install VMS plus a wide varietyE of layered products and boot into a heterogenous cluster in less than  30 minutes. Never mind an hour.-   >-H >|>                               Yes I can think of more time consumingJ >|> ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster common% >|> startup files what's the problem?. >mG >The problem is that it assumes multiple machines running in a cluster,lH >which was not the original argument.  We were talking about OS installs >and which was easier.   VMS still wins in my book.    G >Understand it.  The majority of the world has never even heard of VMS.cH >But they have heard (and seen) enough of Unix to know hogwash when theyG >see it.  It's time for VMS to stop saying how good it is and actually   >show someone where it matters.a   That  agree with.h   >o >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:29:48 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8BEAC.B6A0B2D6@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =    > andrew harrison wrote:@ > > The article is true but your have drawn the wrong conclusion > > from the article.  > >cA > > The SunBlade 100 costs 995 dollars and has an UltraSPARC CPU.s > >sA > > You can add a SunPCI card to it which is a PCI card which has3> > > a Intel CPU and RAM to the SunBlade, you run NT/Win2000/98B > > on the card using displaying the resulting desktop in a window- > > in the CDE/Gnome session you are running.e > =q   > Aha. > =5  2 > And let me guess: that SunPCI card costs extra ? > =o    4 Yes its about 400 dollars if my memory is correct. =    7 You only need it if you want to run Win32 apps actuallys4 on your desktop though its pretty competitive when =   compared with WinFrame etc.y  2 The integration with the UNIX desktop is good, the1 SunPCI card can see the UNIX filesystems that arev. available to the UNIX desktop and there is a =  0 file launcher that launches SunPCI if you double. click on a word/excel etc doc in the CDE/Gnome. file manager. It also has a COM interface if =  ' the SunPCI session is allready running.   0 Even with the card you have a system that will =   cost you 1395 dollars. =     Regardsw Andrew Harrisonl Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:11:45 +0000t0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AA8D691.3816459@uk.sun.com>    Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =l   > David Mathog wrote:oC > > cost to obtain OS      1  expensive   10  free           3  lowe > =l  G > "Solaris is free" is a bit of a myth. Solaris on x86 are really free.iC > It is a toy that SUN give away to compete with Linux and Windows. C > Whether SUN sell a SPARC system for 5000 USD and give away a free-D > Solaris or sell the SPARC system for 3000 USD and sell the Solaris@ > for 2000 USD does not matter much. The only difference is that3 > it is not much point in running Linux on SPARC !!n > =e    2 But Sun sells a workstation the SunBlade 100 for =  3 995 dollars it includes a Solaris license. WhateverG3 the actual costs of Solaris in the scheme of thingso2 it cannot be more than 995 dollars. Incedentally =  3 this is about the same as the OpenVMS license cost.     F > Since VMS and Solaris uses the same GUI (X/Motif/CDE), then I do not > understand > the different scores ! > =>    7 Does OpenVMS have any integrated Office Suites, Solarisl does.   9 Does it have streaming audio/video support, Solaris does.g  : Does it support very low cost 24 bit accellerated graphics: through to very high performance 3D accellerated graphics.
 Solaris does.e  4 Does it have a browser with JavaScript/Java support,
 Solaris does.s  # Does it support H320, VoIP etc etc.a  2 Does it support PDA syncronisation out of the box,
 Solaris does.   1 Does it have good support for running Win32 apps,o
 Solaris does.i   Regardsc Andrew Harrisonp Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:34:18 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations7 Message-ID: <FZ4q6.40$S91.1535@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>h  ? Tim Llewellyn wrote in message <3AA7AA16.5F9E8322@bbc.co.uk>...O >W >K     snip   > L >sounds to me like a remote graphics connection to a very large workstation. >iJ >I seem to remember some talk that a dedicated network card was needed for each >Sunray?* >Can someone with real infor confirm/deny?      I According to their web site and white papers, it requires a dedicated LANd> for Sun Ray use only, but not a seperate LAN card per Sun Ray.  4 I've gotten a lot of mail on my comments on Sun Ray.  @ 1)  As I said, the only thing cool about these is the smart-cardJ authentication, and the ability to move your session simply by plugging in9 your card at another SunRay connected to the same server.a  G 2)  By inference reading the documentation and white papers, the SunRay L software consists of a dumb frame buffer X11 display server that runs on theL host server - using main memory on the host as a frame buffer.  It then sendG compressed image updates via an IP connection on a dedicated LAN to the I SunRay, which then updates its screen.  The SunRay itself could have beentI built out of cheap, low-performance, PC parts to do the job that it does.lG Each SunRay user will dedicate memory and compute resources on the hostaK server, and all the client applications run there as well.  SunRay does notbK distribute any computing, it is simply a "dumb terminal".  But it loads the,> host server significantly more than "traditional" X terminals.  L 3)  SunRay does not "solve" a limitation in the X11 architecture in terms ofC being able to move sessions.  It is a clever hack.  But I really dod  appreciate clever hacks however.  L 4)  My comments should not to be taken as "DEC (sic) has a better solution",K but simply to point out the fact that SunRay isn't a "low cost workstation"I" and to clarify exactly what it is.  I 5)  Traditional X terminals present a lower load on a host server, and inoL general work on any server that supports X11.  They are more flexible, sinceI the display server doesn't have to be a dedicated device - it can be a PC8I running an X11 emulator like eXcursion.  What they lack is the cool stufftI from point (1).   VMS workstations booted into a cluster probably provide I the ultimate in true distributed desktop computing - or at least the bestuJ thing available from any vendor that I know of.  Nothing comes close.  ButJ the cost for this is that the user who may be used to "total control" overD his desktop machine now may have to give up this control to a admin.  F 6)  Turns out that using the latest TCPIP services (5.2 I think is theK version) that XDM and XDMCP are supported for connecting to a VMS host from L a remote display.  So as we speak, I have excusion on my PC connected to theL VMS system in my office (which happens also to be a workstation) with a fullJ X11 session running that I connected to using XDMCP and logged in via XDM.  L 7)  Smart card authentication is something that I see as up-and-comming overH the next couple years, especially as USB becomes widespread, and once we9 start seeing cheap KB/mouse/smart-card combo's available.r  J 8)  I do have a my own clever hack, that I think Hoff has for the freewareH CD (I'll check) that provides a dumb CFB in memory server, along with anK application that can connect to the server and using standard X11 calls candG attach to any remote X11 display server.  With this, you can create anyaL number of X11 sessions on a host VMS server, and then attach to the sessionsI from a X11 display server (X terminal, VMS workstation, etc).  It has the L same property that you can set it up so that if the remote display is brokenJ or closed, that the session can be reattached to.  Right now it's a "push"I model, to create the remote connection requires the manual startup of themI application on the the host VMS server (i.e. I don't have a clever remote K application that causes this to happen automatically).  It's not a polishedr+ product, it's a freebee that I did for fun.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:24:50 +0000a0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8D9A2.14951A99@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =n   > David Mathog wrote:wL > > In article <3AA4AC2F.D859E40E@gtech.com>, Arne =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=3D=( F8j?=3D <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:J > > >First, as I read various posts here then that price is excl. keyboar= d, > > >mouse andH > > >monitor and with only 128 MB RAM and 1 disk. I think you will be atJ > > >$1500-2000 before you can use it. But $995 sounds great in marketing=  ! > >oJ > > There's an academic discount on top of that, and many people have mon= itors J > > laying around.  But yes, most people will probably add things to it t= o B > > bring the price up some, just as they would with a PC or DS10. > =n  J > The price of a DS10 which we compare to includes monitor+keyboard+mouse= =2Em > =t  J > > >Second, the system is probably way slower than a DS10 (at least othe= r-C > > >500 MHz UltraSparc II's are way slower than a DS10 in SPEC2000? > > >benchmarks).j > >gJ > > It's about 1/2 to 2/3 as fast, depending upon the operation.  The cac= heJ > > memory  is a little small and the PCI slot is only 32 bits.  On the o= ther  > > hand, it costs <1/3 as much. > =o  B > A SUN released in 2001 having 2/3 of the performance of an ALpha
 > released" > in 1999 is not that impressive ! > =     " I think you are missing the point.  1 The segment of the market we are talking about isa* price sensitive not performance sensitive.  , Virtually none of the posters to this thread+ have mentioned performance but every postero, has covered the need to provide a product at or below a price.t  + The fact that the DS10 is faster than the =u  ) SunBlade 100 is hardly relevant since then) DS10 costs about the same as a SunBlade =   - 1000 which is faster and much more expandiblea than the DS10.   Regardso Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architectr   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:39:48 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>j" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations7 Message-ID: <O25q6.42$S91.1218@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>   $ dittman@dittman.net wrote in message8 <19yp6.60125$wA6.2918436@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>...  L >The VX1 doesn't work on my PC164LX running VMS V7.2-1.  Well, it works, butJ >makes the system so slow as to be unusable (logging in on takes over five7 >minutes).  I had to go back to my Elsa Gloria Synergy.c >e  @ Yeah, sorry I didn't get back to you.  Between trips and snow...  L I'd be suprised if the VX1 out-of-the-box worked on the PC164LX.  It expectsL to have a byte addressable dense space for doing some optimized direct frameH buffer logic - even though I believe it has fallbacks if that is not theI case - but I'm not sure that all those codepaths were fully tested, sinceeF all the systems it is intended for do support it.  Since we are in theH process of adding full DMA to the server/driver, it is possible that the= next revision of the support (sometime this fall) might work.f  L Send me the output from DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG and I'll see if I can figure out what it is doing.i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:43:07 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations7 Message-ID: <W55q6.43$S91.1466@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>l  ! Graham Allan wrote in message ...a >dittman@dittman.net writes: >t  I >I didn't even know the PC164LX would run VMS. Interesting about the VX1,eK >I'll try it with Tru64 when I get one. I have tried the Elsa and the 4D40TrE >in the 164LX and they both work pretty well (that is, the Elsa is no % >slower than in a supported system!).8    I Tru64 does not support it out-of-the-box, support will appear in a futuresJ release, or on a seperate installation CD.  The VMS support for the VX1 isE available via a patch on the website, and is integrated into the V7.38 release.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 08:49:32 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <uvXKzE$s9$LY@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  ` In article <9894rv$2h5v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:: > In article <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>,* >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  H > |> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,K > |> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basic:K > |> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableoH > |> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2 > |> 8E > |> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fullyw# > |> available in about 5 minutes.   > E > Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too.mD > But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine.  I So installing Alpha VMS on a standalone machine takes less than 5 minutesuH of _my_ time.  It is true that the machine must spend some time churningG at it, but that is not a contribution to "difficulty", which is what wei were discussing.  G As regards adding usernames for "all my users", that clearly depends on J the size of "all".  It will take a university longer than LJK Software :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 21:42:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87hf13xdmg.fsf@prep.synonet.com>.  4 mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:  . > In article <9889qs$23br$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,5 > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:   C > >While I willingly admit that advertising can offset poor qualitycE > >and high TCO in the minds of pointy-hairs, how then do you explain2 > >the success of FreeBSD??c  !B > A lot of people who make decisions NOW used BSD variants of UnixB > THEN, while they were in college.  These are the sorts of marketE > opportunities that Compaq has destroyed with their incredibly short. > sighted academic programs.  -E I defnese of Compaq, they have inherited the mess. This disaster goes E back to the late 70s when DEC moved to 'functional pricing', and alsoeD slashed the discounts and required a full price VMS licence for edu.  E EVERYONE wanted a 780! So over night, BSD became the most wanted, andIE VMS the most cursed, software in computer labs. At this time, 11 unix<C was not regarded highly in the CS labs, early BSD was worse. Demandn! and need fixed that very quickly.s  E The demise of the 10/20 systems left a hole that BSD walked into. TheWE bleeding edge design stuff was on Vax BSD, or some mini-super runningu bsd... And so it went.   -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 15:10:35 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsH Message-ID: <y4itljdodg.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:t  N > 7)  Smart card authentication is something that I see as up-and-comming overJ > the next couple years, especially as USB becomes widespread, and once we; > start seeing cheap KB/mouse/smart-card combo's available.t  L Agreed. You also want a layer in your file system encrypting and decrypting,K on the fly, all data moving to and from permanent storage, and possible theuM same on the network level (IPv6 is working on that, althougn I prefer end-to-oH end encryption [SSL/TSL] to transport layer [IPSEC]). This is especiallyJ useful - nay, required; remember the CEO whose laptop was stolen literallyJ behind his back after giving a talk some months ago? - for mobile systems.  * For a system that does this and more, see 9 http://www.igd.fhg.de/igd-a8/projects/cipress/index.html.   : VMS should be able to do this easily in software - GlennE?  7 No more memory aches from all those password and so on.i   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 14:14:55 GMTm* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations2 Message-ID: <98aogv$tma$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  , In article <9895hi$2hjh$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,4 	bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:4 > In article <988ijg$m37$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,/ >  bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes: 0 >|> In article <9885hf$21gv$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,8 >|> 	bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >|> G >|> > Linux is a re-invention of the Unix wheel making only limited useiE >|> > of a couple decades of research and experience.  It's strongesteD >|> > value is serving as a bad example.  If your experince had beenF >|> > strictly with Linux, then I am sure you would have had plenty of# >|> > experince with unreliability.8 >|> >  >|> Q >|> That's a load of shit, plain and simple.  While it may not be the most stable M >|> unix out there, nor the most technically advanced, it is quite stable ands# >|> very competent for many tasks.   > L > Possibly, it isn't bad as a desktop environment although it offers nothing" > not available in better systems.  K That's not strictly true.  As far as unixes go, I can more often find linux M ports of things that I can't find for our other systems.  Hell, half the timeeJ they'll build just fine on Linux and _not_ on our Solaris/Digital Unix/etc; machines...even when the package wasn't desgined for Linux.a   > N >|>                                How exactly does it serve as a bad example? > K > Reinvented TCPIP while there existed a free and well tested IP stack thattJ > had decades of research and development behind it.  resulting in a stack9 > with poorer performance even at this stage of the game.u  K Show us the numbers, then.  The stack was written, if for no other reason, rL to fix a license compatibility problem.  Granted, Linux NFS leaves somethingI to be desired, but performance as a whole is as good (if not better) thanr/ alot of the other machines we have around here.I     > K > Reinvented the unix filesystem ignoring decades of research that preceded0 > it.m  H Reinvented, or learned from?  How relevant are some of the parameters ofJ BSD's filesystem these days?  If you're dissing Linux for re-implementing J filesystems, you better rag on pretty much every unix vendor, because fromJ where I sit, every one of them has a slightly different filesystem format.   > R >|> I've got production linux boxes which have been serving databases continuouslyO >|> since oct '99...no reboots...no crashes...no downtime...nothing.  In fact,  6 >|> I've not had to think about the thing in months.   > ) > Congratulations, you have been lucky.  .  I I sincerely doubt that.  If anything, you've been unlucky.  I haven't runCJ across anyone which has had the problems you've indicated, and here in the? university setting, I've run across dozens of production users.o    * > Maybe even Linux is finally catching up.  I I've only had minor foibles for the last 7 years I've been using linux inM production environment.i    G > Think where they would have been if they had built on all those yearsaP > of research that preceded them instead of pretending they were doing something > new.  H The same could be said for VMS.  Dont' get me wrong, I like VMS.  But noK matter how you slice it, its different than unix, and those differences arerI part of the reason why it is held back from widespread use.  Sure, it mayeH be better, but if I can't compile software written for the bulk of other2 server systems out there, its not going to spread.   > I > I tried to run a News Server on Linux some years back.  The file system G > could not handle the transaction rate and would frequently crash.  In F > many of these cases, requiring remaking the whole file system with aH > complete loss of all articles.  You can imagine how happy this made my
 > users.    C Agreed, that is a problem.  But that was several years back...and acE vague notion at best.  I've never seen that sort of behavior, nor hasOG anyone else I know around here.  Perhaps it was a hardware problem?  Or E (no offense) a config problem?  Who knows...who cares?  If I would godF and rag on VMS for being a steamy pile of shit just because of some ofB my early trials with it, it wouldn't prove anything....just like a; singular bad experience doesn't prove anything about Linux.      > C > That's just one specific of many problems that had been solved inoF > every other version of Unix out there at the same time.  While neverG > trying as intense a task as that again, I have tried Linux at variouslG > intervals since up to as recent as the latest RedHat.  Performance isrE > acceptable on the desktop, server performance is never as good as aS > BSD box on the same hardware.m  N I think it really depends on the application as well as the setup.  But that's for another group, I'd say.e   > K >|>                                                   In general, we've hadtR >|> more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200O >|> with RA81/RA82 disks) and our Digital Unix box than with some of our Linux S
 >|> boxes. > L > That's pretty funny really.  I have a VAX3000 (I think, KA650 cpu) runningN > Ultrix-32 in the other room with RA81 disks and it just plugs along happily.  O These have been running pretty well constantly since 1990 and are just startingaO to show their age...things like massive error counts and things of that nature.1  L Its not the hardware, per se, but the fact the hardware has been pounded for a decade :)d   Brianc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:38:20 +0000C0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8EADC.7F6B48D2@uk.sun.com>   "Vajhoej, Arne" wrote: > 9 > The reason that VMS is lower than Unix and NT in TCO isi, > exactly that it requires less management ! >   * Where does this information come from ????  + Now if it comes from the "TCO studies" that / Compaq have been waving about then forget usingi0 it as any form of valid comparison. The baseline, system configurations chosen by the company 3 doing the "study" were so clearly biased in favour d( of OpenVMS as to invalidate the results.  , Of course the bias could have been entirely  accidental but who knows.    Regardsr Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:45:19 +0000l0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8EC7F.87F5CE6A@uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =f   > Bill Gunshannon wrote:B > > In article <8994A66FFE9ED411BD200008C75D64FD753FA6@BELMAIL02>,5 > >  "Vajhoej, Arne" <Arne.Vajhoej@GTECH.COM> writes:t> > > |> The reason that VMS is lower than Unix and NT in TCO is1 > > |> exactly that it requires less management !o > >sA > > While this may be true of NT, again, in the case of Unix thiseC > > is pure FUD from people with no experience whatsoever with realKB > > Unix systems.  I work with all of the above and a running UnixC > > server takes no more of my attention than a runnign VMS server.t > >iA > > I have Unix boxes in wiring closets and even under the raisedn? > > floors because they serve particular purposes (like printertC > > servers, dialup servers, etc.) that never require my attention.b > =   C > Since there are whitepapers/reports backing the TCO claim, then ImG > would not consider it FUD. In general analysts are not that reliable,aB > but a whitepaper from some analysts still carry more weigth than > one persons experience.  > =o    3 Sorry but even to most cursory examination of the =t  , "white papers" Compaq have been waving about- comparing TCO for UNIX/OpenVMS etc shows that - the baseline configs chosen favoured OpenVMS.   1 If these are the white papers you are refering to.0 then they arn't worth the paper they are written on.d   Regards  Andrew Harrison- Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:11:16 +0000u0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8F294.FE61E04A@uk.sun.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: > =<   > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =r   > > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > > > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  E= ach SuneJ > > > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the s=	 erver viaAJ > > > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something li= ke XDM, J > > > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server = byJ > > > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then s= endsJ > > > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the = screen.l > > >aJ > > > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication,=	  combinedrJ > > > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is co= mpletelyJ > > > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray,=  plug it9 > > > into another, and instantly be back where you were.s > >pA > > So it is more like what in the PC world would be a "dedicatedm  > > PC-Anywhere-client system" ! > =O  J > sounds to me like a remote graphics connection to a very large workstat= ion. > =   J > I seem to remember some talk that a dedicated network card was needed f= or each 	 > Sunray?n   It was talk.  A You need switched ethernet for SunRays and you may need Gigabit =r  = ethernet on the server depending on the number of SunRays but * a network card per SunRay is pure fiction.   Regardse Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectd   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:09:15 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA8F21B.BA31C0E9@uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > L > A Sun Ray isn't a workstation.  It is a rehash of an X-terminal.  Each SunN > Ray requires extensive resources of a Server, and connects to the server viaL > a private LAN.  Unlike a X-Terminal, which simply used something like XDM,G > and ran the clients on the server - it adds overhead to the Server bytI > running the X11 display server for EACH Sun Ray locally, and then sendsTL > compressed area image updates to the Sun Ray which blits it to the screen. > N > Its only real interesting feature is the smart-card authentication, combinedM > with the fact that since the actual users X11 display context is completelybM > contained on the Server, you can unplug your card from any Sun Ray, plug it-5 > into another, and instantly be back where you were.a > K > But I hope they are buying BIG servers if they plan on deploying a lot of M > Sun Rays.  They do not distribute *any* computing.  They are a 21st centuryh > dumb terminal. >   ! It depends on how you define big.y  ? One office I work in has 2 x NetraT1 servers each with a singles> 400 Mhz CPU. The two servers are in a SunRay cluster and serve; around 20 SunRays. Performance is good and most people who o9 have their own desktops are requesting SunRays because of > the smart card facility and because they are small and silent.  8 The other office I work in has 160+ SunRays served by a 6 12 CPU E4500. Again people prefer the SunRays to their6 own desktop and I always use a SunRay if its available" rather than a desktop workstation.  7 Just to correct yet another incorrect SunRay assumptiont; each SunRay does not require a dedicated network connection.< from the Server, SunRays require a switched ethernet, which ; isn't a big deal when you consider that unmanaged switched n0 ethernet ports now cost as little as 30 dollars.       Regardsh Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architects   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:35:07 GMT, From: dittman@dittman.neti" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations@ Message-ID: <LK6q6.79464$sD.5201910@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>  4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  & : dittman@dittman.net wrote in message: : <19yp6.60125$wA6.2918436@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>...  M :>The VX1 doesn't work on my PC164LX running VMS V7.2-1.  Well, it works, but K :>makes the system so slow as to be unusable (logging in on takes over fivel8 :>minutes).  I had to go back to my Elsa Gloria Synergy. :>  B : Yeah, sorry I didn't get back to you.  Between trips and snow...  N : I'd be suprised if the VX1 out-of-the-box worked on the PC164LX.  It expectsN : to have a byte addressable dense space for doing some optimized direct frameJ : buffer logic - even though I believe it has fallbacks if that is not theK : case - but I'm not sure that all those codepaths were fully tested, sincemH : all the systems it is intended for do support it.  Since we are in theJ : process of adding full DMA to the server/driver, it is possible that the? : next revision of the support (sometime this fall) might work.i  N : Send me the output from DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG and I'll see if I can figure : out what it is doing.u  C I didn't see this reply before my previous.  I'll get a copy of thei log file and send it to you. -- b Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.nett   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:39:37 GMT 5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org>a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations/ Message-ID: <3AA8A4D8.291AE2A3@childrenshc.org>e   Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:- > > In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,oD > >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > > |> Brian Wheeler wrote:MU > > |> >                                                        In general, we've hadfW > > |> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200t > > |> > with RA81/RA82 disks) > > |> > > |> RA81's sucks !o > >nF > > Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room an > > inferiority complex. > " > I am amazed that they still run. > J > 11-12 years ago I knew a VAX 8650 where the RA81's had a MTBF of approx.
 > 1 year ! >  > Arne    G There was a reason why RA81s had an approx 1 year MTBF... If I remember H correctly, the two halves of the HDA were held together with screws. ANdF there was a gasket between the halves. For a while, to hold the gasketG in place during assembly, they were held in place with an adhesive. ForrG those of you who have done work on automobiles this is common practice.nA Anyway... After about a year the glue would break down and littletG particles would start flying around inside the HDA... It's amazing whaty> a teeny tiny fleck of glue would do to a disk read/write head.     -- h Lyndon F. Bartelse VMS Systems Administratoro Childrens Hospitals and Clinics. lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)  651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:37:55 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0903011037550001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <9896mc$2i5g$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:  + > In article <3AA7AE9C.EF04A181@bbc.co.uk>, 2 >  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: > |> nA > |> agreed, in academia cost of ownership is not such an issue, t > H > Excuse me??  That may fly at MIT, but that's not where the majority ofG > students are going.  Smaller schools account for a much larger numberaF > of grads than the big named ones anymore.  And I can assure you they6 > pinch every penny twice before it goes out the door. >  > |> there are alwaysn1 > |> willing grad students, postdocs or whatever.r > H > To do what??  I tried having a student do simple Windows installs.  ItE > was more work and more time consuming fixing his mistakes than justIH > doing the job myself.  Add to that the dreaded security issue.  PeopleD > here have said they wouldn't trust software installed off the net.L > Would you trust a machine for which a student ever had the root password??  G Bill, your salary, spread over the many different systems you take caredC of, is part of TCO.  But a lot of schools don't have a guy like youhE anymore.  The student of the day does what you are doing.  That makes-G "TCO" a pretty invisible concept for their bean-counters.  They haven'trG noticed the drop in reliability and uptime yet, so TCO (in their narrow$' view) is just the cost of the machines.<  F > Another convert!!  Now let's top bashing Unix and work out some realH > plans to get a lab full of Alphas running VMS as an option to that labF > full of PC's!!!  One thing I can safely say about spending here, if D > someone were to cough up a lab's worth of machines with software IF > would be able to get the administration to cough up the room to set 
 > up the lab.i  - What software would be important at your lab?i  F Are there still open-topic courses for advanced undergrads?  How aboutG some courses where groups of students port some non-trivial open-sourceaJ software to VMS?  With an instructor to point in the right direction, they. wouldn't need to know a ton of VMS in advance.  I I think courses like this would be very good for the students, regardlessvG of the platform.  It seems to me that many student programming projects J these days are small, pre-cooked, and almost trivial.  They don't get much practice working n 1) in groupsJ 2) on projects large enough that designing and organizing are non-trivial.  G It might not be the case at your school, but I've heard of departementsfG where seniors only do 4 or 5 "machine problems" per course, and none ofi# them are more than 2 pages of code.e   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:44:13 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0903011044130001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <768hatkto9q6ac9tavtfld7196820ug9na@4ax.com>, Alan Greige <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:   H > Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be economical to$ > keep RA8x disks online these days.  G I don't know of acedemics keeping any hardware on maintenance after the H initial warranty period.  Maybe the administrative computers, but I justH don't see it for teaching and research systems.  I haven't seen it since the VAX 785s went away.a  H If something breaks you junk the box and buy another (if you're rich) orH shuffle parts and fix it yourself (if you're poor).  Data loss is just a
 part of life.e   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:55:58 -0500u2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0903011055590001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>  : In article <3AA8EC7F.87F5CE6A@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison! <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:h     > 5 > Sorry but even to most cursory examination of the =a > . > "white papers" Compaq have been waving about/ > comparing TCO for UNIX/OpenVMS etc shows thats/ > the baseline configs chosen favoured OpenVMS.L > 3 > If these are the white papers you are refering toe2 > then they arn't worth the paper they are written > on.n  J Well, I've examined one or two of them, and I don't see any bias.  Can you be more specific?f  ? Unless you are referring to the (plainly stated) focus on largesH installations, and the (plainly stated) assumption that cost of downtimeI is high.  If you think it's not "fair" to compare Sun's offerings in suchh< an environment, then perhaps I'm inclined to agree with you.  J I look forward to a white paper comparing reliability in MPP supercomputer9 systems as well.  I guess you'll claim that's unfair too.t   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 15:52:42 GMTd1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98au8a$b84$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>o  , In article <9MAR200100222034@gerg.tamu.edu>,*  carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:N |> In article <988tu8$2dtn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu writes...F |> }yes, after 20 years of Admining Unix systems I am as good at it as3 |> }someone who has been Admining VMS for 20 years.  |>   |> Are you? How do you know? |> wE |> What makes you think you are any better at it than a VMS admin whoo/ |> has been at it for only 10 years, or just 5?i |>   OK, you win.  I give up.  A Unix is impossible to use and any three year old can Admin VMS.  t  9 All those Unix system throughout the world are imaginary.   7 Universities will flock to VMS no matter what the cost.   F VMS's superiority will guarantee it's survival into the next century.   C Just keep telling yourselves that and everything will be just fine.    bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 15:59:07 GMTr1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98aukb$b84$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>   < In article <lE%p6.1695$G76.2561209@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,7  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  |>  7 |> "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in messagek) |> news:9MAR200100222034@gerg.tamu.edu...  |> b	 |> <snip> L |> > }you local Waldenbooks or Borders or Barnes&Noble.  How many Unix/Linux. |> > }books are on the shelf??  How many VMS?? |> >H |> > You are making a huge incorrect assumption. You assume that lots ofI |> > books means "easy to use" and few books means "hard to use". That isaH |> > exactly wrong. It *should* indicate to you that Unix is hard to useF |> > and VMS is easy to use (and less popular - but there weren't lotsG |> > of books about VMS 15 years ago either, back when it was popular). J |> > If Unix were easy to use, would there be so many books explaining howJ |> > to use it? If course not. If something is easy to use, you don't needL |> > vast numbers of explanations of how to use it. Duh! VMS is easy to use.I |> > It also comes with good documentation. Combine these two things (andhK |> > the current relatively small market share) and you get a lack of booksf |> > about how to use it.h |> uO |> I wrote "Introduction to VAX/VMS" back in 1983-84 after less than six months L |> exposure to the OS (the book is now in its fifth edition and I am told itO |> has sold well over 100K copies). I sincerely doubt that I could have writteneF |> an equivalent book about any Unix variant given a similar six-month |> exposure.    Well, according to Carl Perkins:C          "Proof by personal anecdote" is not a valid form of logic.1  D And, the last sentence just sounds like your selling yourself short.C I have no doubt that most of the people here could master Unix in a C very short time if the took the chip off their shoulder and decidedsD to treat it like learning any other computer related task.  It's notD as difficult as some would have you believe, but if you go into with> the attitude exhibited by many here, what would you expect??     bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:12:22 +0000k  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsH Message-ID: <OF8EFC72E0.B6DD0114-ON80256A0A.00588FD3@qedi.quintiles.com>  I I don't claim to know anything about SunRays, hence my question : do theynI _require_ switched ethernet or is it just preferred?  Although most sitesaF would probably have switched ethernet in this day and age is it really
 universal?  J Although big is a relative word, I would have thought that a 12 CPU systemB was big, even if it is only an E4500.  Heck, even a system with 12G processors like the ones in the AlphaStation 400 4/233 would be big for- some people........a Steve.   Andrew Harrison wrote: >>>r7 The other office I work in has 160+ SunRays served by ao6 12 CPU E4500. Again people prefer the SunRays to their6 own desktop and I always use a SunRay if its available" rather than a desktop workstation.  7 Just to correct yet another incorrect SunRay assumptionX; each SunRay does not require a dedicated network connectionc; from the Server, SunRays require a switched ethernet, whichr: isn't a big deal when you consider that unmanaged switched3 ethernet ports now cost as little as 30 dollars.<<<e   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 08:13:46 -0700a1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <hXFdsisGINRz@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  8 In article <FZ4q6.40$S91.1535@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, 9   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:c > B > 1)  As I said, the only thing cool about these is the smart-cardL > authentication, and the ability to move your session simply by plugging in; > your card at another SunRay connected to the same server.s > =     Technically that's cool, but administratively it could bei> a nightmare. We briefly looked at the SunRay last year and the? first thing that occurred to me was that people might never log.D off again (they'd just remove their smart card). If one has a singleD server shared between hundreds of students this could bog the server down real quick.  M > server, and all the client applications run there as well.  SunRay does notbM > distribute any computing, it is simply a "dumb terminal".  But it loads ther@ > host server significantly more than "traditional" X terminals. >   +    I referred to it as a "dumb X terminal".r  H > 6)  Turns out that using the latest TCPIP services (5.2 I think is theM > version) that XDM and XDMCP are supported for connecting to a VMS host from N > a remote display.  So as we speak, I have excusion on my PC connected to theN > VMS system in my office (which happens also to be a workstation) with a fullL > X11 session running that I connected to using XDMCP and logged in via XDM. >   ;     You've been able to do this with Multinet for years :-)r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 16:10:36 GMTd1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98av9s$bpt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>s  ) In article <3AA88DC9.C5A8A26F@gtech.com>,i@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:e8 |> > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:# |> > > Are FreeBSD a huge success ?b |> > rF |> > I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendorsB |> > listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery.+ |> > Realize this is just a quick snapshot.r |> .? |> I just looked at the commercial software vendor list. Mostlyn: |> small unknown companies. It did not say "succes" to me.  > And the list of major companies who have announced in the last> year that they intend to port their software to VMS is where??@ In 1975 Microsoft was a small unknown company with two employees and one product.   |> lK |> I do not think I have ever heard many complaints about the Ultrix -> DECC |> OSF/1 move.  8 What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"> What exactly did OSF1 bring to the table that Ultrix-32 didn't already offer??r   |>  K |> I have heard a lot of complaints about DEC OSF/1 not being ported to VAXd' |> and MIPS based DEC-stations/systems.n  C Probably because it coincided with the end of Ultrix-32 developmentsA which left VAX Unix users stranded.  BSD at that time was OK, buts Ultrix-32 had real support.    |> H/ |> If SUN calls it Solaris 1.1, then it exists.-  7 And if I call my car a bus will it hold 64 passengers??   5 Renaming SunOS after the fact was a marketing ploy.  t   |> e |> Ofcourse. BSD->SYSV..  > If this is supposed to mean that SYSV was  descended from BSD,& you must know nothing of Unix history.   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 16:13:23 GMTr1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)." Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98avf3$bpt$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>c  ) In article <3AA88F56.A853955D@gtech.com>,f@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> l |> i; |> There are still some educational systems left using VMS.   8 That may be true, although we see more evidence here for; academic sites abandoning VMS than using it.  If there are,t< that number is shrinking fast.  Apparently, many people here> think this is insignificant (Compaq sure seems to think that).# But there are some who don't agree.u   bill   -- SJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:28:50 +0000d% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>R" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations8 Message-ID: <t2that8pj0oc38dvo0rtasgodo1egj5vnh@4ax.com>  4 On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:34:18 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  G >6)  Turns out that using the latest TCPIP services (5.2 I think is thelL >version) that XDM and XDMCP are supported for connecting to a VMS host from  ? It's 5.1 that has just shipped with XDM support. Just don't tab C between username and password fields on the login box and don't tryiD conecting to anything other than server zero. - although this can be  fixed in TCPIP$XDM_XSESSION.COM.  # We have reported both to the UK CSC      -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 16:38:07 GMTr2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98b0tf$m95@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  i In article <3AA88F56.A853955D@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:h >eD >"In academia they look a lot on price (but not on TCO) when buying" >eN >> Start becoming??  What do you think we (myself included!!) have been saying9 >> here for so long??  VMS is all but gone from academia.t >g9 >There are still some educational systems left using VMS.i  G True, they are not ALL shut down.  And likely there will still be some wJ running here and there in 20 years.  But just like the PDP11 grinding awayB about 30 meters from here VMS has become more of an anomoly than a
 presence.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu-? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech mJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:32:00 +0000<0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA90580.9FDB7DBC@uk.sun.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:t > < > In article <3AA8EC7F.87F5CE6A@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison# > <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:  >  > >s7 > > Sorry but even to most cursory examination of the =h > > 0 > > "white papers" Compaq have been waving about1 > > comparing TCO for UNIX/OpenVMS etc shows thatt1 > > the baseline configs chosen favoured OpenVMS.  > >e5 > > If these are the white papers you are refering toa4 > > then they arn't worth the paper they are written > > on.s > L > Well, I've examined one or two of them, and I don't see any bias.  Can you > be more specific?l >      Easy.w  D Look at the categories of server that Techwise used. Why for exampleG did they put HP N4000's which are 8 CPU machines  in a 4 CPU category, nH they used the considerably cheaper but less expandible ES40 in the same : category (it also has less RAS facilities than the N4000).  > Why didn't they simply choose a comparable 4 CPU HP server ???  @ Once you have loaded the dice like this at the beginning of your4 game it is obvious what the outcome is going to be.   - As I said not worth the paper its written on.    Regardsv Andrew Harrisont Enterprise IT Architecto   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 17:10:53 GMT 2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98b2qt$m95@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <rdeininger-0903011044130001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:oD >In article <768hatkto9q6ac9tavtfld7196820ug9na@4ax.com>, Alan Greig ><a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: >tI >> Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be economical to % >> keep RA8x disks online these days.  >nH >I don't know of acedemics keeping any hardware on maintenance after theI >initial warranty period.  Maybe the administrative computers, but I justrI >don't see it for teaching and research systems.  I haven't seen it sincee >the VAX 785s went away.  K This is pretty much correct except for a few key systems which are used by iK a lot of people.  And it's another factor driving people onto Linux on PCs rD and away from proprietary workstations.  Fixing a broken PC is less J expensive than fixing a broken Compaq/Sun/SGI/HP workstation.  And if you J don't want to do it yourself there are dozens of locals who can do it for K you.  So far on the PCs I've seen only fan, disk, and power supply failures J - and those are easy enough to fix.   Those are the same sorts of failuresK you see on the proprietary hardware too, and it costs much more to replace 1 them.i  K Hmm, makes me wonder what kind of power supply is in the Blade 100.  Wonder4N if it's a standard ATX unit?  The rest of the box seems to be built like a PC.   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 17:08:22 GMTr1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon))" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98b2m6$dib$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>s  8 In article <768hatkto9q6ac9tavtfld7196820ug9na@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:> |> On 8 Mar 2001 23:45:52 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill |> Gunshannon) wrote:r |> n- |> >In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,rD |> > Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> >|> Brian Wheeler wrote:wU |> >|> >                                                        In general, we've hadpW |> >|> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200h |> >|> > with RA81/RA82 disks) |> >|> S |> >|> RA81's sucks !t |> >F |> >Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room an |> >inferiority complex. |> eI |> Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be economical top% |> keep RA8x disks online these days.   A Oh, they're maintained.  The same way the other guy said his are. E Me and my socket wrench.  I have said numerous times this past coupleoA days, I have $0 budget for my DEC/Compaq stuff.  I get most of itpD dumpster diving and do what I can to make it run.  Then I try to getD students and faculty to use it.  The last part is the hardest.  TheyA basicly think I am just a dinosaur.  Why would anyone want to usei  VMS when they have {W|w}indows??  E At least they don;t complain that they use too much electricity. Yet!n   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:26:25 +0000s0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA91241.17F53D9E@uk.sun.com>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > 9 > In article <FZ4q6.40$S91.1535@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>,n; >   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:n > > D > > 1)  As I said, the only thing cool about these is the smart-cardN > > authentication, and the ability to move your session simply by plugging in= > > your card at another SunRay connected to the same server.t > >'? >     Technically that's cool, but administratively it could bes@ > a nightmare. We briefly looked at the SunRay last year and theA > first thing that occurred to me was that people might never log F > off again (they'd just remove their smart card). If one has a singleF > server shared between hundreds of students this could bog the server > down real quick. >   B This is true if you let them but we automatically remove sessions < that have not been used for a specified period of time. This; is to save on swap space, they don't consume CPU resources.e  ; In fact the main additional administravia is the managementn9 of the smart cards. Depending on your security policy yous? may need to add smart card token id's to the systems directory.k  : If you don't care which card ID's are used then users can 9 tie a card to their own userid the first time the card isH( used with no intervention from an admin.   Regardso Andrew Harrison> Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:36:26 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations* Message-ID: <3AA9149A.4669D271@uk.sun.com>  ! steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:a > K > I don't claim to know anything about SunRays, hence my question : do theynK > _require_ switched ethernet or is it just preferred?  Although most siteskH > would probably have switched ethernet in this day and age is it really > universal? >   / You don't need a switch but it is recommended. t  L > Although big is a relative word, I would have thought that a 12 CPU systemD > was big, even if it is only an E4500.  Heck, even a system with 12I > processors like the ones in the AlphaStation 400 4/233 would be big fore > some people........M > Steve. >   = Well an E4500 is a big machine but in the office I refered to < it has replaced 160 odd Ultra5's and Ultra10's that were on < peoples desks. The thing people notice most is the fact that9 the background noise has dropped but we are also getting m less AC issues as well.  .  : Generally people find that its faster than their desktops : were because its configured with 12 GB of RAM and because > everyone uses the same directory tree for apps like StarOffice: and Netscape. This means that there is only in effect one 6 version of Netscape/StarOffice loaded on the system or9 at least the shared text part of them, no matter how manyt users are running each app.s  < So things like loading Netscape/StarOffice etc happen faster; on the SunRay/E4500 combination than it did on the desktop t4 Ultra5/10's this improves peoples perception of the  performance they are getting.h     Regardsi Andrew Harrisonu Enterprise IT Architectg   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:47:26 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)-" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations0 Message-ID: <009F8C1F.8EB42BE5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <98b2m6$dib$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:.9 >In article <768hatkto9q6ac9tavtfld7196820ug9na@4ax.com>,a) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: ? >|> On 8 Mar 2001 23:45:52 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  >|> Gunshannon) wrote: >|> . >|> >In article <3AA7D2E4.8D78A137@gtech.com>,E >|> > Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:  >|> >|> Brian Wheeler wrote:V >|> >|> >                                                        In general, we've hadX >|> >|> > more issues with our VMS machine due to its aging hardware (Its a VAX 4000/200 >|> >|> > with RA81/RA82 disks)n >|> >|>  >|> >|> RA81's sucks ! >|> >5G >|> >Don't say that so loud.  You'll give all mine in the other room ane >|> >inferiority complex.  >|> J >|> Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be economical to& >|> keep RA8x disks online these days. >aB >Oh, they're maintained.  The same way the other guy said his are.F >Me and my socket wrench.  I have said numerous times this past coupleB >days, I have $0 budget for my DEC/Compaq stuff.  I get most of itE >dumpster diving and do what I can to make it run.  Then I try to getrE >students and faculty to use it.  The last part is the hardest.  They B >basicly think I am just a dinosaur.  Why would anyone want to use! >VMS when they have {W|w}indows??1  @ Tell them that dinosaurs dominated the earth far longer than the present dominating species. :)   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMv            nO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:13:09 GMTb1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98b6fl$f7f$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   8 In article <jq6hatou6f2fhbiq4474crtri9a0j9470f@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |>F |> Because DCL is easier to get to grips with and more consistent thanF |> the wide variety of shells and differing command syntax across Unix |> implementations..    D All depends on your point of view.  I find DCL incomprehensible and E yet I can write shell scripts in my sleep.  And there is no differnce"F in command syntax accross "Unix implementations".  There are differentG shells, but Bourne Shell is Bourne Shell on all Unix systems and CshelloD is Cshell on all Unix implementations that hav ethe Cshell (it's notF free or freely available.)  I seem to remembera time when DEC OSes hadF more than one possible user interface. RSTS/E comes to mind.  And I amG pretty sure that even VMS had a way to designate at login if you wantede to use an alternate to DCL.   A |>                   Frequently the changes are just enough to be1F |> dangerous and, at best, force constant typing of "man something". I  @ One has to know ones tools.  If I apply what your saying to say,B Fortran, you would be holding that F77 was a real bad idea becauseE it has things that weren't in Fortran-66.  Again, it is unfamiliaritynD with Unix that causes this problem and not some inherent flaw in theD shell itself.  Back in my RSTS days, my preference was for DCL as myF CLI.  The default was BASIC.  Does that make my choice somehow wrong??E No, it just meant I had to be sure of how to do things in DCL becauseuD I couldn't rely on scripts I got from my peers working at all, much  less correctly.   A |> guess after 20 years you get used to this. I just think you've C |> forgotten over the years and you are now a bit like a tight-ropeyI |> walker telling people it's as easy to cross the wire as it is to walk.m  B Forgotten what??  Are you saying that by mastering the environment= in which I work on a daily basis I have actually decreased myxB knowledge??  I don't expect everyone around me to be able to writeC complex scripts in sh.  That's why they hired me.  But I also don'txC expect them to say that because I can do this easily and they can'tiB that it is somehow me that is flawed.  I don't speak Farsi.  Does C that mean there is something wrong with all those Iranians who onlyl speak Farsi??  Strange concept.V   |>   |> >|> aJ |> >|> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,M |> >|> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basicwM |> >|> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessablelJ |> >|> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2 |> >|>  G |> >|> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fully-% |> >|> available in about 5 minutes. r |> >G |> >Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too. F |> >But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine. |> nI |> Ok, on an XP1000 you should be able to install VMS plus a wide variety-H |> of layered products and boot into a heterogenous cluster in less than" |> 30 minutes. Never mind an hour.  6 OK, G6-350 Gateway, 24X CDROM, 128M RAM, 10GB IDE Disk< FreeBSD 4.0 full developers workstation.  Includes all of X,5 compilers, debugger, editors, plus usual Unixy stuff. @ Full network, including Netscape. Plus a lot of junk the average user wold likely never need.   14 minutes.o   |> e |> >K |> >|>                               Yes I can think of more time consumingmM |> >|> ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster commonn( |> >|> startup files what's the problem? |> >J |> >The problem is that it assumes multiple machines running in a cluster,K |> >which was not the original argument.  We were talking about OS installs  |> >and which was easier.d |> . |> VMS still wins in my book.c  ? How?? Can oyu get a standalone install to under 14 minutes with E more on it than the base OS??  Can you do the base OS in 14 minutes??dB Oh, I can make it even smaller. I could have chosen a User installB which would have left out all the sources and X-development stuff.  + But then, of course VMS wins in your book. n  J |> >Understand it.  The majority of the world has never even heard of VMS.K |> >But they have heard (and seen) enough of Unix to know hogwash when theysJ |> >see it.  It's time for VMS to stop saying how good it is and actually " |> >show someone where it matters. |> e |> That  agree with.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   8   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:22:15 GMTc1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98b70n$f7f$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>5  3 In article <uvXKzE$s9$LY@eisner.encompasserve.org>, <  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: |> "J |> As regards adding usernames for "all my users", that clearly depends onM |> the size of "all".  It will take a university longer than LJK Software :-)e  A No, it doesn't.  I use a central server for authentication so alleA users have immediate access to the machine as soon as it is added  to the network.    bill   -- jJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   *   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 13:33:51 -0500*9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations3 Message-ID: <G02+6ZOynIWD@eisner.encompasserve.org>*  _ In article <98b70n$f7f$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i5 > In article <uvXKzE$s9$LY@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o> >  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > |> gL > |> As regards adding usernames for "all my users", that clearly depends onO > |> the size of "all".  It will take a university longer than LJK Software :-)y > C > No, it doesn't.  I use a central server for authentication so allaC > users have immediate access to the machine as soon as it is addede > to the network.   M Fine.  I can COPY SYSUAF.DAT NEWAXP"SYSTEM MANAGER"::SYS$COMMON:[SYSUAF] too, N but I did say standalone machine.  Your earlier requirement was "no clusters",I so in response to my "standalone" example you now say "networked, but not J clustered".  That is certainly drawing the rules to suit your purpose, but( it does not beat the copy command above.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:40:32 GMTs0 From: "Mike Flaherty" <mflaherty2@earthlink.net>) Subject: Mod_Perl won't let go of a file.tB Message-ID: <4I7q6.176$xe7.30434@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   Hello,  I I have a simple routine to read the contents of a file into a scalar.  It F works fine but the system won't release the file even though I am onlyG opening it for READ.  NOTE that this only happens via CGI (command lineIH seems fine).  I am using Apache on VMS (csws 1.01) and when I do a "showH dev/files" I see that Apache is still holding on to the file which means6 that I can't update it later when I open it for WRITE.     sub get_pending_entries {i  % $userlist = "web_perl\:userlist.csv";. $pending_entries;e  ' unless (open (DATAPLACE,"$userlist")) {r,    $pending_entries = "NO PENDING ACCOUNTS";    close (DATAPLACE);n   }g   else     {g
     local $/;          open USERLIST, $userlist;%        $pending_entries = <USERLIST>;l5     close (USERLIST) or die "cannot close $file: $!";n   }o   if ($pending_entries eq "") {r) $pending_entries = "NO PENDING_ACCOUNTS";t }e   }    *****************************r   VMSNODE> sh dev/files/out=l.l  VMSNODE> sea l.l csvA APACHE$WWW_3    21E0D514  [APACHE_KITS.APACHE.PERL]USERLIST.CSV;1s VMSNODE>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:35:00 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>8 Message-ID: <occhatk45vrru51kadgmdvcec26llf2k19@4ax.com>  1 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:00:50 -0800, Jack Patteeuwi  <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> wrote:  E >Sorry, your price is more than 3 time higher than Kingston, and theyo >have a lifetime warranty !!!i  E But Island's memory is Compaq branded. The problem lies with Compaq'ss) ludicrous memory pricing not with Island.n  R >http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/kepler/PartsInfo_Bod.asp?ktcpartno=KTV-MS610/4096 >m >o >Jack Patteeuw >o >  >Islandco wrote: >> 1' >> Go to: www.islandco.com/specials.htm? >>   >> Or click on the NAV bar >>   >> --P" >> Island Computers US Corporation >> 2700 Gregory Street >> Suite 150 >> Savannah GA 31404 >> Tel: 912 447 6622 >> Fax: 912 201 0096 >> sales@islandco.com* >> www.islandco.com* >> *F >> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential andM >> may be privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacy legislation.*K >> They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whomiH >> they are addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended
 >> recipient,DJ >> please notify Island Computers US Corp immediately and then delete this >> message.cL >> You are notified that reliance on, disclosure of, distribution or copying! >> of this message is prohibited.>   -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:12:16 +01003 From: "Dieter Robach" <dieter.rossbach@t-mobil.de>i  Subject: NFS between VMS systems5 Message-ID: <98a6ph$d91$1@ds10701a.msro.detemobil.de>   F I try to set up NFS access between two VMS systems (TCPIP V5.0a). WhatG values for GID und UID do I have to use for the NGS PROXY an the server  system?>     Client user NN: uic: [100,1]
 local user NNa    ' TCPIP add proxy NN /uid=1 /gid=100 ...o  F does not work, the user has no right to create files on his directory.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:43:50 +0100h' From: Theo Jakobus <jakobus@iaf.fhg.de>e$ Subject: Re: NFS between VMS systems) Message-ID: <3AA8C1F6.E40EF03@iaf.fhg.de>e   Dieter Ro=DFbach wrote:o > =s  H > I try to set up NFS access between two VMS systems (TCPIP V5.0a). WhatJ > values for GID und UID do I have to use for the NGS PROXY an the server=  	 > system?  > =l   > Client user NN: uic: [100,1] > local user NNj > =   / > TCPIP add proxy NN /uid=3D1 /gid=3D100 =B4...t > =a  H > does not work, the user has no right to create files on his directory.  E The command requires the qualifier /HOST which also accepts wild card(H "*" i.e. all hosts. The host must be known, check with command SHOW HOST  " Use the command: TCPIP> SHOW PROXY The message should be:  ; VMS User_name     Type      User_ID    Group_ID   Host_name   3 NN                ON              1         150   *03 TCPIP$NOBODY      ON             -2          -2   *p TCPIP>     Regards, -- =    ; ***********************************************************>; *                                                         *3; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *g; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *l; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *n; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       * ; *  Germany                                                *t; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           *t; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           *s; *  e-mail:  jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                            *o; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  *m; *                                                         *e; ***********************************************************    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:53:05 +01003 From: "Dieter Robach" <dieter.rossbach@t-mobil.de>e$ Subject: Re: NFS between VMS systems5 Message-ID: <98acmh$koh$1@ds10701a.msro.detemobil.de>t  D "Dieter Robach" <dieter.rossbach@t-mobil.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag/ news:98a6ph$d91$1@ds10701a.msro.detemobil.de... H > I try to set up NFS access between two VMS systems (TCPIP V5.0a). WhatI > values for GID und UID do I have to use for the NGS PROXY an the serverm	 > system?i >  >d > Client user NN: uic: [100,1] > local user NN  >r >H) > TCPIP add proxy NN /uid=1 /gid=100 ...- >-H > does not work, the user has no right to create files on his directory. >h >i   To be more precise:u   NFS in general works.c The file system is mount via  8 tcpip mount dnfs3:[000000] /host=SERVER /path=/userpath"  K The user can see his data, and can read it. a dir/sec shows, that he is the 3 owner of these files. Same with his home directory.s  5 and: the proxy record has a valid /host=CLIENT entry.    Dieter   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:56:56 +0000d2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk>5 Subject: Open a file, open a another - fails silently . Message-ID: <3AA8EF38.14A3F9A1@CCAgroup.co.uk>   Using Alpha VMS 7.1,  % $ open/read a anyfile.txt	! works ok.l4 $ open/read a anotherfile.txt	! no action, no error.  G This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file.I Anyone else seen this ?a  
 Chris Sharman5   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:55:18 +0200 (MET)e1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> 9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently 3 Message-ID: <01K100IWSBUY9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>e  - > $ open/read a anyfile.txt       ! works ok.a8 > $ open/read a anotherfile.txt   ! no action, no error.  I > This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file.o > Anyone else seen this ?a   I can confirm it on 7.2-1.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:24:00 -0500* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently 7 Message-ID: <Ls7q6.37245$lj4.867860@news6.giganews.com>e  ? "Chris Sharman" <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk> wrote in messaged( news:3AA8EF38.14A3F9A1@CCAgroup.co.uk... > Using Alpha VMS 7.1, >-' > $ open/read a anyfile.txt ! works ok.76 > $ open/read a anotherfile.txt ! no action, no error. >eI > This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file.4  A Ummm.... IANADG (I am not a DCL Guru) but.... shouldn't that look  like:i     $ open/read a anyfile.txtn   $ close a    $ open/read a anotherfile.txtl     -Andy-   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:41:32 +0200 (MET):1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>a9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyh3 Message-ID: <01K102494J469N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>j  C > Ummm.... IANADG (I am not a DCL Guru) but.... shouldn't that look  > like:  >  >   $ open/read a anyfile.txt 
 >   $ close aw! >   $ open/read a anotherfile.txth  I Sure.  However, suppose you forget the close.  You THINK you have opened h another file, but you haven't.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 11:45:21 -0500v From: briggs@encompasserve.org9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlym3 Message-ID: <cqDl3fQMS4Tf@eisner.encompasserve.org>|  g In article <01K100IWSBUY9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> writes:.. >> $ open/read a anyfile.txt       ! works ok.9 >> $ open/read a anotherfile.txt   ! no action, no error.C > J >> This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file. >> Anyone else seen this ? >  > I can confirm it on 7.2-1.  E Been that way for as long as I can remember.  When I write a DCL .COM G that messes around with file opens, I try to remember to code somethingt like:t  ( $ IF F$TRNLNM("A") .nes. "" THEN CLOSE A   at the top of all such scripts.   F The way this behavior usually bites me is in the debugging process.  II open a file, read partway through and the DCL .COM file blows up.  I makewH some modifications and re-run it -- and it starts reading right where it1 left off because the data file didn't get closed..   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 11:48:38 -0500f9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)49 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently>3 Message-ID: <dIojgYfrtLmG@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  g In article <01K100IWSBUY9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de> writes:i. >> $ open/read a anyfile.txt       ! works ok.9 >> $ open/read a anotherfile.txt   ! no action, no error.  > J >> This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file. >> Anyone else seen this ? >  > I can confirm it on 7.2-1.  L I believe ignoring a "reopen" command has been around so long that it cannotL be changed without breaking a lot of existing command procedures that depend  (inadvertently) on the behavior.  K Since DCL has no formal specification, the standard has to be "what is bestmJ for users", and sites where the person who wrote the DCL left 15 years ago< would not be happy if a new release of VMS broke their code.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:01:36 +0200 (MET)y1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>t9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyu3 Message-ID: <01K104XG8K7W9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>t  G > Been that way for as long as I can remember.  When I write a DCL .COMUI > that messes around with file opens, I try to remember to code somethingf > like:n > * > $ IF F$TRNLNM("A") .nes. "" THEN CLOSE A > ! > at the top of all such scripts.   , Right, or the quick and dirty CLOSE/NOLOG A.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:31:51 +0100s= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>y( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA894F6.A0124090@gtech.com>n   Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:e > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:9 > > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:tM > > > > I agree that the distribution of products on LP CD's are a bit weird.lK > > > > They should be grouped so that much fewer CD changes was necesarry.o > > > >o1 > > > > But that has very little to do with VMS !t > > > I > > > Sure it does.  We were talking about TCO and relative difficulty ofiH > > > Administration.  Surely installing layered products is a factor of > > > both?? > >t> > > I think switching LP CD's is an insignificant part of TCO. > E > Only if you consider an Administrators time as insignificant.  If IaE > have to babysit every install, it's expensive.  I value my time too . > much to happily sit there doing monkey work.  D 1 system - 1 install + 5 upgrades during life-time - need 5 CD's perE system - 1 minute to change CD - total 30 minutes of time per system.t   That is insignificant for TCO !o  < > > > > What do you think $ PROD INSTALL * /SOURCE=[] does ? > > >iP > > > Wait, I thought Unix was the cryptic OS!!  Is that fragment above supposedH > > > to be intuitively obvious to someone with limited VMS experience?? > >  > > Yes. > >n+ > > PRODUCT - we are working with a productn  > > INSTALL - we want to install > > * - we want everything, > > /SOURCE - we want it from this directory > >iL > > I can not rigth off my head come up with any more english-like command ! > F > Sorry, that's jargon, not english.  As I have said before, it may beH > intuitive to a VMS guru, but so is Unix jargon to a Unix guru.  One is8 > not necessarily better than the other, only different.  E Sorry, but even though english is not my native language, then I will > still claim that "product", "install" and "source" are english not VMS jargon.l  eM > > > > OK - for VMSINSTAL you have to write a COM-file for each product, buteD > > > > writing 10-20 lines COM-files is not a major problem for me. > > >lP > > > Maybe not for you! But it is totally unneccessary for the FreeBSD install. > > > So, which is easier??d > >.K > > So you have proved that the FreeBSD install is better than the VMS tool  > > fromJ > > the late 70's and you did not know about the VMS tool that replaced it > > from the early 90's. > H > So we come back to the same place again after all this wrangling.  VMSE > may be easier to Adminster for a VMS guru, but not for an outsider.s   ????  C I am not quite sure I can see how you can conclude that from what In wrote.  4 "You comparing todays Unix with VMS 20 yeatr ago" => "VMS not easy for outsiders" ??>  H > Of course, I could be wrong.  Anyone is welcome to come along and show > where there are:6 >   a) more VMS systems in operation than Unix systemsH >   b) more VMS systems coming online each month(year) than Unix systemsM >   c) more people becoming familiar with and therefore pushing VMS than Unixi >      in the marketplacen  G Using that criteria Unix is better than VMS. And Windows is better than- Unix.-   I do not buy it.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:37:59 +0100:= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>o( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) Message-ID: <3AA89666.D161CD47@gtech.com>e   Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ > In article <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,m1 >  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:t8 > |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > |>L > |> > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeM > |> > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not then > |> > case. > |> > |> PROD INS *n > C > This is even more curt and cryptic than Arne's.  And getting realc# > close to Unix command syntax. :-)o    But there are a big difference !  : Abbreviation is optional on VMS. It is mandatory on Unix !  G > |> of a scratch disk, and tweek the file names into dependancy order.: > . > And your going to donate this scratch disk??  ? Your beloved FreeBSD install from the net also requires someoneD to donate a disk.n  D The only difference is that someone has. Compaq has not. For obvious@ reasons (installing software directly from the net is a no-no in most VMS sites).  F > I have no doubt that a similar and easier install can be devised forC > VMS, the fact is however, it doesn't exist now and I am comparingeC > VMS installs to FreeBSD installs now.  The fact that VMS installs ? > were easier compared to Ultrix-32 V3.0 or that installs underI4 > VMS-8.0 will be better doesn't affect sales today.   ????  @ I think other posts to this thread has clearly revealed that youD do not know PCSI INSTALL and are comparing your 2001 FreeBSD install: with the VMSINSTAL that were used 10-20 years ago on VMS !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:40:00 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <fu8hatk9mgaq1fgriegaaoak4plmpb3bvq@4ax.com>  @ On 8 Mar 2001 10:29:34 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:   : >In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>, * >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >> 6I >> I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSlH >> is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us, >> the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix. >IE >   Isn't that the same thing folks said about POSIX a few years ago?m  A Posix wasn't done properly. It was useful if you needed temporaryeE access to a Unix style shell but useless as a development tool. Since B then we've got a much more compatible C library which continues toF improve with feedback from DII COE work. Also there's far more supportD being added into other VMS core components for COE than was the caseC with Posix I believe VMS engineering know that Posix was a job halfn5 done and don't intend to make that mistake this time.R   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:45:36 +0000c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>p( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <189hat8lm50mh9j90n0iqu271u6fmk245d@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 21:40:06 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billl Gunshannon) wrote:  9 >In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>,>) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: ? >|> On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billn >|> Gunshannon) wrote: >|>  >|> K >|> >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,TK >|> >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is.t >|> J >|> I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSI >|> is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give uso- >|> the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.i >nB >Well, I wouldn't bet on this.  Remember POSIX?? This was going toC >offer the same compatability.  Anyone ever find a package that wasID >able to be ported without major re-writes (non-trivial progrma that  F Yep and I fired exactly those observations at Steve Hoffman during theD UK VMS futures day in London. Their goal this time is to make such aC porting task trivial. Not like the goal last time which was more ofi% achieve "tick the box" functionality.   D I will be seriously disappointed if COE turns out to be just another Posix.    C >is.)  I seem to remember people saying that not even shell scriptssC >were particularly portabel to the POSIX Shell.  This is a band-aidd? >at best and not a cure.  The software needs to be legitimatelycC >ported to VMS and modified where possible to take advantage of thehC >VMS way of doing things.  I know I don't have to tell people here,i >but VMS <> Unix.b  C Yes but COE should mean that you can get a Unix port up and running-D almost immediately then port in specific OpenVMS features instead ofF having to virtually complete the port before you have anything usable.E We all want native VMS software but t isn't just going to appear over  night.   >u >|> - >|> What we still need is marketing and apps.h > 3 >And a real blitzkrieg into the educational market.R >  >But I'm not holding my breath.e >u >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:51:19 +0000w% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <qm9hatguusqf9k4omcpdjbh4vspt6m43bu@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>e wrote:  4 >On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:   >oG >So we come back to the same place again after all this wrangling.  VMS H >may be easier to Adminster for a VMS guru, but not for an outsider. The  F No, you say that but our experience differs. Of the five people in theC office I'm sitting in with experience of Unix, VMS and NT all thinktE that VMS is the easiest to administer and that includes the HP-UX and  NT system managers!    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:52:57 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>S( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <2t9hat0fgu2sqj4fjtjvcom8ppu628ibkq@4ax.com>  1 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:06:56 -0600, Chris Scheers " <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote:    > >You can install multiple products in one shot with VMSINSTAL: >a' >	$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL * <directory>*  F All these years of using VMSINSTAL and I never knew that! Not sure I'dE want to use it though as you would likely be prompted anywhere in the 3 middle which should not happen with PRODUCT INSTALLF    H >-----------------------------------------------------------------------% >Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  > D >Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com  >  Fax: 817-237-3074   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:58:14 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>:( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <m0ahat8genrj7sips89hcvfoja2cbrtst4@4ax.com>  ; On 8 Mar 2001 21:43:13 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) wrote:    E >Sadly, I doubt that DVD's are likely to be supported on my VAX, even-F >if I could afford to buy one.  Or is that going to be included in the8 >lab full of Alphas that Compaq is going to donate?? :-(  @ Nah, you just need one small Alpha with DVD then serve it to theE cluster. If the DVD is written  in ISO format you could mount them ong/ Unix and then serve out via NFS to a VMS system    >bill    -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 08:57:11 -0500D9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <y6TIUtEDHJKC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <988ure$2dtn$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:/ > In article <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,r1 >  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:o8 > |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > |> sL > |> > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeM > |> > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not thes > |> > case. > |> i > |> PROD INS *- > C > This is even more curt and cryptic than Arne's.  And getting reali# > close to Unix command syntax. :-)u  ? But if you read the documentation, they spell the commands out.-: I agree that people should spell them out in Usenet posts.  G > |> of a scratch disk, and tweek the file names into dependancy order.	 > B > And your going to donate this scratch disk??  Remember, VMS onlyA > survives here as long as it has an apparent cost of $0.  No onea9 > here besides myself cares for it one way or the other. 0  F You seem to be placing requirements (zero cost) on VMS that you do notJ place on the competition.  VMS does not have a chance in your environment,! but your environment is atypical..  G > |> What would be REALLY nioce would be a little auto-gen snippet thattF > |> could be all extracted and appended together to feed autogen once# > |> ( we hope...) before starting.i > F > I have no doubt that a similar and easier install can be devised forC > VMS, the fact is however, it doesn't exist now and I am comparingAC > VMS installs to FreeBSD installs now.  The fact that VMS installsa? > were easier compared to Ultrix-32 V3.0 or that installs unders4 > VMS-8.0 will be better doesn't affect sales today.  A It depends on the environment.  How many pages of printed FreeBSD.@ documentation do I get when I buy the documentation set from the vendor ?  ; And by the way, will the vendor also support the hardware ?s   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:00:32 -0500 9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)h( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <tAFkqLHsm1KU@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  ` In article <98900c$2dtn$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <$AhEOXhqAYYA@eisner.encompasserve.org>,:> >  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  F > |> Internally, however, that is what Infoservers (see eBay) are for. > F > And this Infoserver sells for how much??  Realize that my budget for  ( About $40 is the lowest I recall paying.  E > keeping VMS in this academic department is $0.  And this InfoserverI   Then you are under-budgeted.  E > has 10 CD drives in it??  No, you say??  Then how does it solve the1" > original disk swapping problem??  E The problem under discussion when I brought up the Infoserver was the 6 security hazard of loading software over the Internet.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 09:10:35 -0500E9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)e( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <JcfjfXTOaeIJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <98930i$2g2q$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  @ > And, because of the freeness of the BSD style Copyright, there> > is no reason why commercial vendors cannot adopt/adapt these/ > obvious improvements except for NIH syndrome.e  . Another factor would be lack of market demand.  I I often get the impression that Unix administrators cherish the obscurity I of the environment as a sort of job security.  While you might want these E changes introduced to all Unix implementations, it could be that Unixt5 vendors do not get the same message from other sites.t   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 22:17:33 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <874rx3xc02.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  ; Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c  K > What that lacks, that is implicit when people ask for a combined install, H > is the ability to ask all questions for all products at the start, andI > then walk away and let it do the work.  That is what PCSI brings to ther > bulk-install table.e  ? Two shot deal, do it with... option K? I can never rember them.nA Answer questions to file, then fire it off reaing the auto-answerg$ file. Yeah, another option letter...  9 Real life is, you run out of SOME quota half way through.    -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.d@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 22:29:06 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <87zoevvwwd.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:0  / > In article <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,a1 >  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:a8 > |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > |> eL > |> > But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changeM > |> > disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the/ > |> > case. > |> - > |> PROD INS *- > C > This is even more curt and cryptic than Arne's.  And getting reala# > close to Unix command syntax. :-)u   Sorry, must have been sleeping.r   PRO I * seems to do the job ;)   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:34:22 -0500c- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>h( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program( Message-ID: <3AA8E9EB.CC6A4307@ohio.edu>  h Once upon a VAX-11/750, with some software coming only on TU-58, and other available on 9-track, I triede to reduce downtime for software upgrades by performing @VMSINSTAL from two different terminals at theo
 same time.   BIG MISTAKE!  e That version of VMSINSTAL.COM set systemwide logical names to control placement of files, and did not f have any mechanism in place to avoid collisions with another instance of itself.  I do not know if the  current version is any brighter.  ] What Larry suggests must be implemented as a single-threaded sequence, in order to avoid such h collisions, and so I would expect, as others have commented, that you would have to answer the questions; for each product only after the prior product had finished.   +                                         RDP?     Larry Kilgallen wrote:  g > In article <3AA7D850.65C6D3FD@applied-synergy.com>, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:  > > Alan Greig wrote:o > >>@ > >> On 8 Mar 2001 15:21:17 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill > >> Gunshannon) wrote:d > >>K > >> >But you have to do each product individually.  And you have to changenL > >> >disks just to find them.  There are Unix systems where that is not the > >> >case.t > >>G > >> PCSI Install can install multiple products in one go. Not true fornI > >> VMSINSTAL but that's the old not the new. Future VMS layered productu= > >> distributions will be available on one DVD as an option.T > >uA > > You can install multiple products in one shot with VMSINSTAL:0 > >i/ > >       $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL * <directory>  > K > What that lacks, that is implicit when people ask for a combined install,lH > is the ability to ask all questions for all products at the start, andI > then walk away and let it do the work.  That is what PCSI brings to the  > bulk-install table.t   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:27:03 -0600S* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <0033000018265196000002L062*@MHS>m  < =0AWell, the getting the PAKS part can be done "in minutes".   Joining DECUS, well....m   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ) > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:57 PM 8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* > Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program >  >e* > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Tim Llewellyn wrote: >,; > > Yeah, of course if you could download VMS and LP's I amF > sure that a hackersh< > > LMF pack generator would be posted to the net real soon. >AE > Why would they bother?  Anyone can join DECUS and get a free set of6B > PAKs for almost everything, over the net, in minutes.  Remember,= > PAKs are an administration tool, not an enforcement tool...) >iC > P.S.  I'm *not* advocating anyone do this, just pointing out that E > there are obviously much easier ways to steal licenses than writingt > a PAK generator. >h > --
 > John Santos> > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539 >=   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 11:40:27 -0500o9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)i( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <d4yOaZMWhCci@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3AA8E9EB.CC6A4307@ohio.edu>, "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:j > Once upon a VAX-11/750, with some software coming only on TU-58, and other available on 9-track, I triedg > to reduce downtime for software upgrades by performing @VMSINSTAL from two different terminals at theS > same time. >  > BIG MISTAKE! > g > That version of VMSINSTAL.COM set systemwide logical names to control placement of files, and did notoh > have any mechanism in place to avoid collisions with another instance of itself.  I do not know if the" > current version is any brighter. > _ > What Larry suggests must be implemented as a single-threaded sequence, in order to avoid suchdj > collisions, and so I would expect, as others have commented, that you would have to answer the questions= > for each product only after the prior product had finished.   F But PRODUCT INSTALL takes care of that sequencing, which is one reasonD why more discipline is required in writing a PCSI kit.  It is easier: that writing a VMSINSTAL kit, but does require discipline.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 17:04:08 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <98b2e8$dib$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   ) In article <3AA89666.D161CD47@gtech.com>, @  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:d2 |> > In article <8766hkrwza.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,4 |> >  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: |> > |>f |> > |> PROD INS * |> > nF |> > This is even more curt and cryptic than Arne's.  And getting real& |> > close to Unix command syntax. :-) |> o# |> But there are a big difference !e |> a= |> Abbreviation is optional on VMS. It is mandatory on Unix !D  9 Ummm.  Nothing is mandatory in Unix.  If a user finds theo= short names (which really do have a reason and a logic behindI: them.  Well, most of them anyway.) offensive he is free to< change any of them.  Aliases are simple to set up.  And even> complete shells are easy to make.  I have seen Shells provided; by various Unix vendors that imitated the MSDOS COMMAND.COMc; interface and Tandy did one for their version of Xenix thath< mimiced TRSDOS-II.   I personally wrote a Shell that mimiced; The UCSD Pascal menu interface.  One of Unix's strengths isr infinite adaptability.   |> 1J |> > |> of a scratch disk, and tweek the file names into dependancy order. |> >  1 |> > And your going to donate this scratch disk??  |> aB |> Your beloved FreeBSD install from the net also requires someone |> to donate a disk.  A I don't understand your meaning here.  The suggestion to copy allnC of the programs from the CD to "a scratch disk" requires me to havecB an additional disk with enough space to hold several CD's worth of@ stuff in order to do an unattended install.  The FreeBSD install> requires only the system disk.  The LP software is eitehr on a? single CD or loaded from the net.  No additional disk required.n> So while the scratch disk is  not "required" on VMS either, it@ was the recommended method to use if I wanted the convenience of the FreeBSD install.   |>  G |> The only difference is that someone has. Compaq has not. For obvious C |> reasons (installing software directly from the net is a no-no inc |> most VMS sites).v  = We've heard all this before.  But as I said, blind trust in at< product because the vendor gave it to you on a CD is just as= risky.  There is past (documented) evidence of this.  One of r@ parts of the opensource paradigm is that if I am truly paranoid,: I can install all of my software from sources that I build< myself only after examining these sources to ensure they are< what they purport to be.  Believe it or not, in the packages; that are officially supported under FreeBSD (at FreeBSD 4.1d: that is aprox 3600 packages) even building from sources is9 trivial and fully automated.  Except for the reading the f sources part. :-)l     |> eC |> I think other posts to this thread has clearly revealed that youfG |> do not know PCSI INSTALL and are comparing your 2001 FreeBSD installt= |> with the VMSINSTAL that were used 10-20 years ago on VMS !i  = I opnely admit that I am a novice VMS Admin.  Been at it lessa< than a year.  But the point is most of the people here don't; know Unix any better than I know VMS.  And that makes their<; observations about as meaningful (or meaningless, dependingm on your point of view) mine.  7 The Unix haters here are so blinded by their religionth 7 that they are missing the whole point and have led this 4 to deteriorate into little more than ahouting match.  5 I am not trying to convert anyone.  I could care less 5 if anyone here ever uses a Unix system again in their 8 life.  The point is that Unix is out there in the world.6 It is easily and freely available.  It is neither hard: to install or difficult to administer.  It has a seemingly2 limitless selection of applications, both free and+ commercial.  It is trivial to learn to use.   ; What does this mean to VMS??  It means if VMS is to survive 7 (and I think we all agree that the survival of VMS is an9 good thing) people in a position to do something about itD: need to stop believing the myths they have heard somewhere< about Unix and start treating it like the serious competitor it is.  : Part of this points at the education program. How did Unix: get it's start??  In schools and Universities where it was5 cheaper than the alternatives.  It made more than oneh: generation of students familiar with it and they took this: familiarity with them into the business world.  That gives: them a big lead.  You can stand on your soapbox and scream9 at the top of your lungs that "Unix is garbage".  But thep: world isn't listening because they know better.  They know9 that the INTERNET was built on Unix and runs primarily on < Unix (what do you think is inside most of those router boxes) that make the Internet function, VMS??)  .  7 The big question is, what are we going to do about it??m' Attempt CPR or just continue the wake??2   bill   -- >J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:31:21 -0600s+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>s( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5440@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]    ; > Ummm.  Nothing is mandatory in Unix.  If a user finds theV? > short names (which really do have a reason and a logic behinds< > them.  Well, most of them anyway.) offensive he is free to> > change any of them.  Aliases are simple to set up.  And even  F Ahh yes -- If memory doesn't fail me, weren't the abbreviations one ofF Unix's only carry-overs from MULTICS?  Taken from the long form of theF command by using either the first letter of each word (in a multi-wordL command) or the first letter, and next consonant (in a single-word command).  G Hence list becomes ls, move becomes mv, print_working_directory becomesm pwd....a  K I often wish that Unix had also preserved the long names of these commands,u@ which, if I understand correctly, were the original files to theI "hard-links" (no soft links back then. :) which were the abbreviations on  the MULTICS filesystem.h  @ > complete shells are easy to make.  I have seen Shells provided= > by various Unix vendors that imitated the MSDOS COMMAND.COMn= > interface and Tandy did one for their version of Xenix thats> > mimiced TRSDOS-II.   I personally wrote a Shell that mimiced= > The UCSD Pascal menu interface.  One of Unix's strengths ise > infinite adaptability.  L I would take that further and say that one of its greatest strengths as wellK as one of its greatest weaknesses, is its simplicity of implementation.  Ofu course, that's opinion.p   Regards,   Chrise  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerf Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");h 'v      ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:56:06 +0000s  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramH Message-ID: <OF42AB3DD6.EE2DDCD5-ON80256A0A.0062401D@qedi.quintiles.com>  J I don't believe for one second that DII COE on OpenVMS will turn out to beI anything like the previous efforts.  There is too much excitement and too + much work going on for that to be the case.t  F From what I've seen and the comments I've heard, DII COE on OpenVMS is serious stuff.   Steve.  0 Alan Greig (a dot greig at virgin dot net) wroteI >>>Yep and I fired exactly those observations at Steve Hoffman during theaD UK VMS futures day in London. Their goal this time is to make such aC porting task trivial. Not like the goal last time which was more ofA% achieve "tick the box" functionality.l  D I will be seriously disappointed if COE turns out to be just another	 Posix.<<<h   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 01:52:34 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <87ae6ux21p.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:d  E > They know that the INTERNET was built on Unix and runs primarily onvC > Unix (what do you think is inside most of those router boxes thats$ > make the Internet function, VMS??)  D Bill a few points of correction. If there was 'a system' the net wasB built on, it would be Tops-10, TOPS-20 and Multics. And now, it isA IOS inside most router boxes, and it was Fuzzball on an 11. Well,:& in the NSF part of the not so old net.   -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.h@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:40:25 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <98b82p$g0c$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  3 In article <y6TIUtEDHJKC@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e<  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes: |> oB |> But if you read the documentation, they spell the commands out.  9 If you read the documentation, you would also know how toM: use the Unix equivalent.  The original statement was that 8 VMS commands were somehow intuitively obvious to non-VMS types.   |> 0I |> You seem to be placing requirements (zero cost) on VMS that you do notlM |> place on the competition.  VMS does not have a chance in your environment,n$ |> but your environment is atypical.  E I'm not placing the requirement.  The industry has.  VMS is out. UnixtD and Windows are in.  I don't decide how to spend the money, the bestC I can do is make suggestions.  And if I suggest a lab full of $5000mD Alphas against a lab full of $1500 Intel Boxes which do you think isD going to win??  You know the Alpha is better and I know the Alpha isG better.  But the guy with the purse strings in his hand has never heard G of an Alpha.  Neither has he heard of VMS.  If you want this to change,K; where do you think the cost is going to have to come from??   F Are we atypical??  How many schools have put in labs of Alphas runningG VMS this last calendar year as opposed to putting in labs of PeeCees?? p    D |> It depends on the environment.  How many pages of printed FreeBSDC |> documentation do I get when I buy the documentation set from thef |> vendor ?u  A Straw man.  There is no "vendor" per see, for free software.  YouaB can, however, buy lots of printed documentation for FreeBSD if you@ really want to.  Much of it at your local Waldenbooks.  How much% VMS documentation can you buy there??    |>  > |> And by the way, will the vendor also support the hardware ?  > The vendor of the hardware will support it if that was part ofC the deal.  That's one of the reasons why we buy a lot from Gateway.i? As far as hardware goes, it's all commodity and one place is ase@ good as another.  But Gateway's warranty service has always been@ first rate.  In every case so far (and there have actually been > very few hardware failures of still under warranty parts) they= have had a replacement in my hands in less than 24 hours. AndrB that's the default service.  We could pay for better, but I really' can't imagine how they would beat that.   B The only requirement is that I choose hardware listed as supported@ by FreeBSD.  But then, isn't the same true of VMS?? (Can you say	 Multia??)A   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 18:45:22 GMTo1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <98b8c2$g0c$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>.  3 In article <JcfjfXTOaeIJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,-<  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c |> In article <98930i$2g2q$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:u |> lC |> > And, because of the freeness of the BSD style Copyright, there A |> > is no reason why commercial vendors cannot adopt/adapt these72 |> > obvious improvements except for NIH syndrome. |> a1 |> Another factor would be lack of market demand.o |> >L |> I often get the impression that Unix administrators cherish the obscurity2 |> of the environment as a sort of job security.    > Another urban legend.  Unix Admins are professionals just like- VMS Admins and CICS Admins and Exec-8 Admins.   J |>                                              While you might want theseH |> changes introduced to all Unix implementations, it could be that Unix8 |> vendors do not get the same message from other sites.  A Hmmm.  Let me see.  System A is seamless, flawless and automatic.eC System B is arcane, archaic and faulty.  But users would definitely:D prefer System B.  So, what your saying is that VMS fails to flourish? because the insdustry is full of masochists.  Now I understand.    bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:00:03 -0600 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>4 Subject: POSIX (was RE: OpenVMS Educational Program)- Message-ID: <0033000018258592000002L022*@MHS>0  < =0AI was told that the POSIX implementation would take place in two stages.  : The first stage will be the update and resurrection of the old POSIX layered product kit.  8 The second stage will be a full integration of the POSIX interfaces into OpenVMS.   WWWebb > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETr& > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:27 AM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* > Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program >n >u= > On 8 Mar 2001 21:40:06 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billy > Gunshannon) wrote: > ; > >In article <d4dfat0j8ptbv1bqpmlkt0vj16omclubo8@4ax.com>,u+ > > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: A > >|> On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  > >|> Gunshannon) wrote: > >|>t > >|> ; > >|> >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here everyt > couple of months,.< > >|> >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, > nothing ever is. > >|> < > >|> I would agree that this has been the case. Development > wise though VMSh< > >|> is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well > should give us/ > >|> the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.a > >1D > >Well, I wouldn't bet on this.  Remember POSIX?? This was going toE > >offer the same compatability.  Anyone ever find a package that washF > >able to be ported without major re-writes (non-trivial progrma that >"H > Yep and I fired exactly those observations at Steve Hoffman during th= ehF > UK VMS futures day in London. Their goal this time is to make such aE > porting task trivial. Not like the goal last time which was more ofA' > achieve "tick the box" functionality.  >eF > I will be seriously disappointed if COE turns out to be just another > Posix. >l >mE > >is.)  I seem to remember people saying that not even shell scripts E > >were particularly portabel to the POSIX Shell.  This is a band-aidoA > >at best and not a cure.  The software needs to be legitimatelyeE > >ported to VMS and modified where possible to take advantage of thedE > >VMS way of doing things.  I know I don't have to tell people here,t > >but VMS <> Unix.  >wE > Yes but COE should mean that you can get a Unix port up and runningiF > almost immediately then port in specific OpenVMS features instead ofH > having to virtually complete the port before you have anything usable= .iH > We all want native VMS software but t isn't just going to appear over=   > night. >- > >- > >|>e/ > >|> What we still need is marketing and apps.s > >.5 > >And a real blitzkrieg into the educational market.l > >r! > >But I'm not holding my breath.c > >s > >bill  >a > -- > Alan >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:56:54 +0000o0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...>* Message-ID: <3AA8B6F6.CA010CCE@uk.sun.com>   Andy Bustamante wrote: > H > No one has commented that VMS Engineering corrects problems, generallyI > pretty quickly for the severe issues.  Some vendors have to be publiclyeL > embarrassed into even admitting there are issues with their latest serviceH > packs/releases.    CERT and BugTraq publicize problems, but are also a8 > reaction to lack of responsiveness from other vendors. >   ; Humm, do you consider advising admins to put OpenVMS/Tru64  = boxes behind a firewall and sacking any internal originators o/ of the violation as being a quick fix ???????? l   Regards  Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT ArchitectS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:51:32 +0000a0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...a* Message-ID: <3AA8B5B4.282A5603@uk.sun.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:| > 5 > In article <fFf7s8BMyWdO@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c< > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > C > > >   Versions Not Affected:   TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMSs > >e? > > >       TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not VulnerableT > >g@ > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > >e@ > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > >l@ > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > >D@ > > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > H > Amusing.  I read Andrew's little ditty shortly before I got that email > from Compaq. > H > Maybe the sky really is falling.  But if Andrew tells me so, I'll feel > safe for the rest of the day.h >   9 I think the joke is on you since this wasn't the advisorye I was refering to.  : This being the case feel free to assume that the sky will  fall in on you soon.   RegardsM Andrew Harrisonv Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:56:18 GMTo$ From: mark@NOSPAMtechop.co.uk (Mark)0 Subject: Q: How to tell whether a process exists/ Message-ID: <3aa7a1c9.22471983@news.force9.net>u   Hi,n  = I need to check whether a given process exists from 'C' code.   = I have the process id and I am using sys$getjpiw to find thist: information.  Is this the most effecient way or is there a better way?a   TIAp
 Mark Williamse   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2001 10:32:20 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o4 Subject: Re: Q: How to tell whether a process existsH Message-ID: <y4ofvb9tjv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  & mark@NOSPAMtechop.co.uk (Mark) writes:  ? > I have the process id and I am using sys$getjpiw to find this H > information.  Is this the most effecient way or is there a better way?  2 That's the best way. Beware of privilege problems.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:11:42 GMT $ From: mark@NOSPAMtechop.co.uk (Mark)0 Subject: Q: How to tell whether a process exists. Message-ID: <3aa8ac2a.6223348@news.force9.net>   Hi,   = I need to check whether a given process exists from 'C' code.i  = I have the process id and I am using sys$getjpiw to find thisn: information.  Is this the most effecient way or is there a better way?h   TIAi
 Mark Williamsi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:24:39 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>h4 Subject: Re: Q: How to tell whether a process exists) Message-ID: <3AA8BD77.C2252006@gtech.com>    Mark wrote: ? > I need to check whether a given process exists from 'C' code.a > ? > I have the process id and I am using sys$getjpiw to find thise< > information.  Is this the most effecient way or is there a
 > better way?s   SYS$GETJPIW is the way.    Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2001 10:58:38 -0500o3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) 4 Subject: Re: Q: How to tell whether a process exists3 Message-ID: <7MxAKDFKXQf+@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  / In article <3aa7a1c9.22471983@news.force9.net>, & mark@NOSPAMtechop.co.uk (Mark) writes: > Hi,b >n? > I need to check whether a given process exists from 'C' code.o >o? > I have the process id and I am using sys$getjpiw to find thisu< > information.  Is this the most effecient way or is there a
 > better way?I  & I would recommend using sys$getjpiw().  D There is a C routine called kill() that when you specify the pid andF signal 0 (zero), will on some platforms, versions, and other phases of; the moon will return a success value if the process exists.e  J If you have a different platform, version, or what ever, it will of course: kill the selected process if you have permission to do so.  E Please see the latest Compaq C documentation, release notes, and mosteE current ECO kit for what you must consider if you want to use kill().-   -John- wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only0   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:02:22 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>92 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE7 Message-ID: <%n5q6.44$S91.1597@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>m  ; Jerry Leslie wrote in message <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>...t  < >  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power off0 >     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot >m    F What type system and graphics is this again?  Is BOOT_RESET set to ON?  I A frequent problem with warm boots on some workstations is the failure toeI re-initialize the PCI devices.  So a reboot can occur with a device stillfL active, and worse - sending interrupts.  What we have frequently seen is theL device driver being loaded and getting interrupts before the data structures# are all setup.  And poof.  A crash.m  F This is/was a general problem with the ELSA graphics, and probably theG 3D30/4D20, on things like the DPW500 & 600.  There is new firmware that I explicitly resets the devices (because there isn't a general way to resetkK the PCI on this system!) and at least on the ELSA a new driver (in the most C recent patch kits) that does some belt-and-suspenders checks in thel< interrupt path to make sure that initialization is complete.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:01:56 GMTa4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE' Message-ID: <Ef6q6.188$%L5.8239@insync>t  4 Fred Kleinsorge (kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com) wrote: : = : Jerry Leslie wrote in message <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>..., : > : >  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power off2 : >     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot : >e :  : 0 : What type system and graphics is this again?    E The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au; the graphics card- is a PowerStorm 4D10T.   Is BOOT_RESET set to ON?  	 It's OFF:s  1   OLYWS3> write sys$output f$getenv("BOOT_RESET")V   OFFa   : K : A frequent problem with warm boots on some workstations is the failure to.K : re-initialize the PCI devices.  So a reboot can occur with a device stilltN : active, and worse - sending interrupts.  What we have frequently seen is theN : device driver being loaded and getting interrupts before the data structures% : are all setup.  And poof.  A crash.s : H : This is/was a general problem with the ELSA graphics, and probably theI : 3D30/4D20, on things like the DPW500 & 600.  There is new firmware thataK : explicitly resets the devices (because there isn't a general way to resetnM : the PCI on this system!) and at least on the ELSA a new driver (in the mosthE : recent patch kits) that does some belt-and-suspenders checks in the > : interrupt path to make sure that initialization is complete. :  :   ( The following patches have been applied:     o vms721_update-v0100e   o vms721_pcsi-v0100e   o vms721_cpu2208-v0100   o vms721_graphics-v0400@  E What's the version of the new firmware and where can it be obtained ?d  / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net ;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalido2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:50:45 +1300, From: "Phil" <phil.judi.maslin@clear.net.nz>% Subject: Write CD on PC for OVMS ReadO% Message-ID: <3aa899ee$1@clear.net.nz>F  I Anyone know of any special software available or special requirements forl
 writing ofI CD's on PC (Win2000 or NT4) for reading by CD drive on Alpha running OVMS I 7.1. Long file names are the priority as ISO9660/Joliet only seem to gives0 n.3. Required SAS files have long... extensions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:25:52 +01002= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>j) Subject: Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Readg) Message-ID: <3AA8BDBF.E6F908D4@gtech.com>n   Phil wrote:tK > Anyone know of any special software available or special requirements for  > writing ofK > CD's on PC (Win2000 or NT4) for reading by CD drive on Alpha running OVMS.K > 7.1. Long file names are the priority as ISO9660/Joliet only seem to givee2 > n.3. Required SAS files have long... extensions.  B Get LD, create the CD image on VMS (in native ODS-2 format !), FTPC the image to the PC, burn the image to a CD with any burner programo* that supports burning images (I use Nero).   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:26:08 +0100 ? From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=F3sa=20Istv=E1n?= <dosa@mail.datanet.hu>t) Subject: Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Reado& Message-ID: <3AA8D9F0.6B2CDAC9@mkb.hu>  > see page: http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/vms.html   Phil wrote:l > K > Anyone know of any special software available or special requirements fori > writing ofK > CD's on PC (Win2000 or NT4) for reading by CD drive on Alpha running OVMSaK > 7.1. Long file names are the priority as ISO9660/Joliet only seem to givet2 > n.3. Required SAS files have long... extensions.   ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:24:42 GMT/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>a) Subject: Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Read?) Message-ID: <3AA8934A.44DE1C30@uiowa.edu>H   Dsa Istvn wrote: > @ > see page: http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/vms.html   Hi Dosa!  A 	Have you ever updated your DFY$VMSCD program past v1.8?  What isfD your current e-mail address?  (You can send to me below if you don't want
 it posted)   Regards, Rick -- tH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:22:32 +0000b8 From: David J. Dachtera <donotreply@interbulletin.bogus>) Subject: Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Readn0 Message-ID: <3AA8F538.60BD94D@interbulletin.com>  8 "Phil" <phil.judi.maslin@clear.net.nz> wrote in article  <3aa899ee$1@clear.net.nz> : J >Anyone know of any special software available or special requirements for >writing oftJ >CD's on PC (Win2000 or NT4) for reading by CD drive on Alpha running OVMSJ >7.1. Long file names are the priority as ISO9660/Joliet only seem to give1 >n.3. Required SAS files have long... extensions.h  J If you're trying to move files from W/NT, W2K or W/9x to OVMS, that's one J challenge. You'll need to look into a piece of software that supports the L appropriate ISO9660 extensions. I don't have the program handy to check the > options, but I believe Adaptec's Easy Cd Creator will do this.  L Alternatively, you can ZIP the files on (non-VMS), burn the .ZIP archive(s) N to CD-R as ISO9660 (remember to follow the appropriate naming conventions whenL creating the archive(s)), then MOUNT the resulting CD-R using /MEDIA=CD and I /OVER=ID and UNZIP the archives on VMS. The original names/paths will be  N restored as they are stored in the archive; so, choose ZIP (PKZIP/Win, WinZIP,K etc.) options wisely, and remember that embedded spaces in long file names  J are still illegal (or very cumbersome and troublesome) outside of Windows.  M I use GEAR and Adaptec's Easy Cd Creator. The latter has proven useful quite t often for this purpose.e   Otherwise, see:e$ http://www.djesys.com/vms/cdrom.html   -- David J. Dachtera, dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/,  / _______________________________________________a; Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.comi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:48:35 GMTl= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)u) Subject: Re: Write CD on PC for OVMS Reada0 Message-ID: <009F8C17.56640A82@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <3AA8F538.60BD94D@interbulletin.com>, David J. Dachtera <donotreply@interbulletin.bogus> writes:.9 >"Phil" <phil.judi.maslin@clear.net.nz> wrote in article . ><3aa899ee$1@clear.net.nz> : cK >>Anyone know of any special software available or special requirements for- >>writing ofK >>CD's on PC (Win2000 or NT4) for reading by CD drive on Alpha running OVMSeK >>7.1. Long file names are the priority as ISO9660/Joliet only seem to give-2 >>n.3. Required SAS files have long... extensions. > K >If you're trying to move files from W/NT, W2K or W/9x to OVMS, that's one tK >challenge. You'll need to look into a piece of software that supports the .M >appropriate ISO9660 extensions. I don't have the program handy to check the p? >options, but I believe Adaptec's Easy Cd Creator will do this.R >eM >Alternatively, you can ZIP the files on (non-VMS), burn the .ZIP archive(s) bO >to CD-R as ISO9660 (remember to follow the appropriate naming conventions whenlM >creating the archive(s)), then MOUNT the resulting CD-R using /MEDIA=CD and yJ >/OVER=ID and UNZIP the archives on VMS. The original names/paths will be O >restored as they are stored in the archive; so, choose ZIP (PKZIP/Win, WinZIP,4L >etc.) options wisely, and remember that embedded spaces in long file names K >are still illegal (or very cumbersome and troublesome) outside of Windows.p  L This means you need disk space to explode the .ZIP archive.  Then, dependingK upon what it is you have archived, you need to move the files into positionvK elsewhere on the disk or another disk.  Yuck.  Just burn an ODS-2 CD image.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             uO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:46:26 GMTt, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>& Subject: [Q] subroutine library source& Message-ID: <3AA924D0.D528595F@gmx.ch>  I Where can I find a machine readable copy of the pp. 347 to 354 of the DCLt "bible" 2nd edition, please?   Thanks,t   D. -- a6 MORANDI Consultants, Swiss Quality Computer Consulting6 avenue de Granges-Paccot 2, 1700 Fribourg  Switzerland1     Tel: +41.79.705.46.70 - Fax: +41.26.465.13.58 4  Visit our Web site at http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.136 ************************