1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 10 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 138       Contents: Alpha 433Mhz SBB for $415 !!!!  Re: Can't SPAWN: SYSTEM-F-NOSLOT* Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later K fpt service for open vms to access tcp/ip terminal server port as fptdevice  Re: help :-) Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>  Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40> & Re: New memory in VAX 4000/90 not seen& Re: New memory in VAX 4000/90 not seen' Re: Newbie question - VMS Documentation 4 OT: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG>O Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG> P Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <V# Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues # Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues  R: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers 4 Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG>& Re: Variation in c.o.v. delivery delay [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:46:00 -0500 - From: "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com> ' Subject: Alpha 433Mhz SBB for $415 !!!! / Message-ID: <takq07rbu4cne2@corp.supernews.com>   , Go to: www.islandco.com for more information  " Only caveat - one per customer !!! While stocks last !      -- David Turner Island Computers US Corporation  2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax:912 201 0096 sales@islandco.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:38:16 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ) Subject: Re: Can't SPAWN: SYSTEM-F-NOSLOT , Message-ID: <3AA9D9BB.D5D4F092@videotron.ca>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: J >   Virtual Balance Set Slots.  This VBSS stuff is indexed in the manuals.  K Thanks. Checked the current docs (I have the last "real" printed DOC set at N VMS 5.5-2) and indeed there are new parameters. However, VBSS_ENABLE is set to> the default 2 (bit 1 set).  I didn't see any values to adjust.  / >   MAXPROCESSCNT and BALSETCNT, most commonly.   I But if show memory show that I have total 50 process entry slots, with 17  available (33 used),@ and BALSETCNT shows that I have 45 total and 14 free (31 used),   ' how come SPAWN would fail with NOSLOT ?   M The guide to performance management is focused on process performance and has C very little on how other system parameters affect process creation.   J >   Not when non-dynamic system parameters are messed up.  Clean the cruft! >   out of MODPARAMS, and reboot.   K But that will never tell me what was wrong. I'd like to be able to find out  what is wrong and fix it.   M I did an AUTOGEN SAVPARAMS GENPARAMS and in the report, it didn't suggest any & values higher than I have. EXCEPT for:  G   NPAGEVIR  which autogen suggests to 8214528 but which I have maxed to J 5536481, the suggested upper value of 1/3 of physical memory. (that should# tell you how much memory I have :-)    ***NEWS FLASH****   9 Ok, I decided to swallow my pride and reboot the machine.   L I can now spawn to my heart's content until SHOW MEMORY indicates that there$ are 0 process entry slots available.  G So, I suspected, there was some sort of memory leak in the system which L resulted in the OS not having enough resources to create a new process slot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:51:34 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)3 Subject: Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-) L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1003011151350001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <pngq6.5$BA1.205@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>, $ hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam wrote:   >   The Corporate Identity: >   folks quite reasonably took this topic very seriously.  J The Digital corporate identity folks turned out to be OxyMorons.  (In this' context "Oxy", like "Open", is silent.)    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:17:11 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87y9uegezs.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ( "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com> writes:  D > I think that most any language can be used to write a compiler.  IB > actually believe the best language for writing a compiler is the > language itself.  G So you have no problems with the idea of writing a compiler in say RPG?  Or Datatrieve ;)  ? > The reason is that it makes the compiler writer a user of the D > software.  I think ALL programmers should have to use the softwareA > they write as an end user for an extended period of time.  It's @ > amazing how much software improves when programmers become end > users.  C In practice, this is a very bad idea. Very, very bad. You have uses D who 'know' where the docs and specs are wrong, hazy or missing. They; carry all their preducices and pre-conceptions into use and E testing. There is a large body of documented practise that this in it ( self is set the project up for disaster.  A It also make it very hard to isolate the use environment from the  development environment.  B > Cross compiling solves the porting problem more than adequately.E > Obviously, a simple verison of the compiler must be written in some F > other language that exists with a new language that doesn't yet have@ > any compiler, but that should only be to bootstrap a compiler.  E Far better to flush the idea. It has nothing going for it at all. Use C a language that will ot cause you grief. IE, existing, well tested, 7 and with the hooks you need into the system it runs on.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:10:26 GMT& From: "Rick Cadruvi" <rick@rdperf.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later1 Message-ID: <98dn62$4iu@freepress.concentric.net>   9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:87y9uegezs.fsf@prep.synonet.com... A > > The reason is that it makes the compiler writer a user of the F > > software.  I think ALL programmers should have to use the softwareC > > they write as an end user for an extended period of time.  It's B > > amazing how much software improves when programmers become end
 > > users. > E > In practice, this is a very bad idea. Very, very bad. You have uses F > who 'know' where the docs and specs are wrong, hazy or missing. They= > carry all their preducices and pre-conceptions into use and G > testing. There is a large body of documented practise that this in it * > self is set the project up for disaster. > I You missed the point entirely.  I didn't say the programers should be the  ONLYL users.  I said they should have to be an end-user for a period of time after the E project is completed.  I also didn't say they should be a user during  design. K The software should meet a design spec generated by end user needs and most F times the programmers should NOT be the people doing the final testing because  of what you said.   L However, I stand by my statement.  Software used by the programmer will tend toI improve in quality and useabilty dramatically if the programmers involved 
 are forcedI to use the software.  They will get caught with those annoying things the  software does and they will fix them.  J As to stability, a compiler would become stable faster if it is written in
 that language 4 because the compiler writer has to use the language.     Rick...    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:36:51 +0530 2 From: "news.vsnl.net.in" <suman_bahuguna@vsnl.com>T Subject: fpt service for open vms to access tcp/ip terminal server port as fptdevice+ Message-ID: <98f1d3$lbc$1@news.vsnl.net.in>   J Does there exist fpt services for openvms (either in ucx stack or else) soL as to make tcp/ip terminal server port as fptdevice accessible from openvms.- As this service exist for hp-ux and sco unix. D I need this so as to use sys$assign and sys$qio to access the tcp/ip? terminal server port and want to avoid usage of tcp/ip sockets.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:20:20 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: Re: help :-) & Message-ID: <3AA9D596.637C3C66@gmx.ch>   Even when it is stated   > "Your  message is  being returned  to _you_  *unprocessed*  because it looks  like a LISTSERV command, rather than material intended for distribution to the members of the INFO-VAX list".    ?    "Richard D. Piccard" wrote:  > Q > The standard "processing" that a LISTSERV does to a message is to re-send it to  > everyone on the list.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:21:07 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1003011121080001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <98belu$j12$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:   N > In article <rdeininger-0903011037550001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>,7 >  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  > |>  L > |> Bill, your salary, spread over the many different systems you take careH > |> of, is part of TCO.  But a lot of schools don't have a guy like you? > |> anymore.  The student of the day does what you are doing.   > I > How could a school let a student do what I do??  I have access to every G > account in the department.  That means I have access to all the profs J > tests.  All their personal grading spreadsheets.  All the other studentsI > work.  What school could possibly allow a student this kind of access??   & I've seent it happen in several cases.   > |>  2 > |> What software would be important at your lab? > 7 > Simple to state, apparently impossible to accomplish.  > C > In order to have a lab full of VMS machines they would have to be B > capable of doing what is done in the labs now.  Typical desktop F > apps, modern software development tools, modern software engineering > tools. >  > |>  @ > |> Are there still open-topic courses for advanced undergrads? > E > Don't have to be advanced.  Every student here has to do a projects  > course in his senior year.  F Ok, I thought seniors were "advanced undergraduates".  My mistake. :-)  J > |>                                                             How aboutL > |> some courses where groups of students port some non-trivial open-sourceO > |> software to VMS?  With an instructor to point in the right direction, they 3 > |> wouldn't need to know a ton of VMS in advance.  > I > I have suggested this in the past and I have talked with the Department H > Chair about it.  It's a great idea and emminently doable.  All that isJ > needed is the VMS equipment.  Nobody here is going to fund it.  So whereM > does it leave us??  Back to the same solutions that were suggested 6 months ) > ago and a year ago and so on and so on.   J Well, a budget of $0 isn't reasonable.  If you could shake loose enough $$F for a half-dozen used alphas, you could run a small class.  (One alphaJ would do in a pinch.)  Used machines are cheap, and licences would be freeI for this use.  Machines like this are even cheaper than PC.  They're old, I and they won't do fancy 3D texture-mapped games, but they are plenty fast  enough for programming.   H Even the haul-it-away discount on old hardware is available, but it does take up non-trivial time.   N > |> I think courses like this would be very good for the students, regardless > |> of the platform.  > N > That's why we have one.  It's also one of the reasons we are one of an elite& > few who have accredited CS programs.  6 Good.  I agree with all of this, so I'm snipping it...   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:32:07 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1003011132080001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <98bfu5$jha$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:   N > In article <rdeininger-0903011044130001@user-2ivec0r.dialup.mindspring.com>,7 >  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  > |>  D > |>                                             Data loss is just a > |> part of life. > E > Boy, you wouldn't last around here with that attitude.  Reliability E > options was one of the easiest battles I ever fought.  That's why I / > have RAID and a DLT tape for regular backups.   I I find it intolerable.  I _don't_ run the VMS systems this way.  I raised G hell until the exabytes were replaced with DLTs.  (Still too poor for a F significant RAID presence.)  But the PC, Mac, and many linux folk here@ just shrug their shoulders.  I guess when you're used to m$ WordA corrupting your docs, having m$ windows blow up a disk is a small J increment.  Even in the rare cases where some lost PeeCee files are backedI up somewhere, folks sometimes refuse to restore them -- too much trouble,  just do it over.  F Most systems here aren't backed up at all.  Many of the ones that are,J aren't backed up completely or reliably -- restores would be incomplete if needed.   G That's just backups.  There's no commitment to reliability either.  The J voicemail, email, web, and back-office systems range from bad to unusable,# depending on the phase of the moon.   G This isn't an Edu institution, however.  It's a national lab.  Anything I the central authorities touch is broken.  The only way to stay functional H is to hide from them and do it yourself.  Sometimes that's not possible.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:42:50 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <3AAA679A.17514F4@infopuls.com>   P Wasn't able to respond earlier but have seen that others took over my part well. Therefore only short comments.   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3AA6E812.EE6EF47C@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> > |>D > |> This is your personal observation and as such not questionable.H > |> But as it is always pointed out this isn't enough to prove anything0 > |> useful beyound this one case. Statistically > @ > And what statistic is this??  A survey of VMS administrators??  7 Independent surveys. Would you give up if I bring them?   H > |>                                              (and from many sites I9 > |> know of including my own experience as a consultant)  > 8 > And you have how much experience as a Unix Sys Admin?? > J > |>                                                      VMS needs *much*7 > |> less administration effort and attention than UNIX  > G > Pure personal opinion.  I know of no experienced Unix admin who would D > agree,  Just adding users or reseting a password is more difficultD > and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,G > fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basic G > OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessable D > by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2G > hour long classroom sessions 24 students (8 teams of 3 students each) D > walked into a lab last week and installed Unix on 8 machines.  AndH > that's not even what they are actually studying.  It's just one of the > tasks the course requires.  ^ Personal opinion and examples. Installation is *not* the task with which server OSs cost time.   > K > |>                                                    (especially SolarisSF > |> because it's instability and lack of conforming to standards) for > E > And what standard does VMS conform to??  Solaris is setup just likeCG > any SYSV based unix.  Not necessarily the best unix way to do things, ' > but then that's personal opinion too.e  
 Protocols.  5 > |> beeing able to offer the same volume of service.  > F > Ridiculous.  Some of the biggest servers on the Internet are running, > Unix, not VMS.  Why do you think that is??  9 Number of systems is no proof. When would you learn that?n  F > |>                                                  This is in partsI > |> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much betterE2 > |> sys control language compared to UNIX shells. > H > And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others)I > Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitrC > that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in thenG > datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  I)E > don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And my G > Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shutV > off campus wide.  R Your site seems to be a special one. VMS is less stable than UNIX. Maybe it's you?  J > And your opinion about DCL versus Unix shells is just that, your opinionG > and one not sharted by me and not likley to be shared by any Unix SysAG > Admin worth his salt.  I have seen entire applications written in one-H > or another of the Unix shells.  This is bad practice, as it's not whatG > they were designed for, and I wouldn't do it, but the truth is it canA
 > be done.   There a few simple criteria to come to that conclusion. The point is *not* that there are special people who are able to cope with this crap. When would you learn this?  G > But all this is OK.  VMS advocates (well, some of them, cause believeSE > it or not, I don't want to see VMS go away either!!) can keep their@D > heads in the sand secure in the idea that no other OS in existenceI > can do what VMS does.  The rest of the world will just have to struggle:8 > along getting the job done while totally ignoring VMS.   This wasn't the point.  A > You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new Unix C > systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to theeD > number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andB > tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > VMS vs. Unix.s  9 Number of systems is no proof. When would you learn that?mT Are you in marketing?? I'm only interested in a technical discussion wrt this topic.   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:47:44 +0000m) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>A" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <3AAA68C0.8CC34E6@infopuls.com>a   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:a >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > > > You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new UnixuG > > > systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to thetH > > > number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andF > > > tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > > > VMS vs. Unix.m > >e	 > > And ?  > >pB > > If you compare number of Windows systems installed with numberC > > of Unix systems installed, then you would conslude that Windows  > > is better than Unix ?? > >  > - > Never underestimate the power of marketing.c  = The number of systems is no proof. When would you learn that?-  C > Microsoft spends a lot more on marketing than any of the Unixes I.A > know of.  And infinitely more than that spent marketing FreeBSDoA > which still has a large market share (possibly larger than evenl > VMS.)r   SUN spends a lot of money for marketing and has adopted most of M$'s bad attitudes like defining standards without delivering implementations or not talking about defects of their products..  
 > Or a gun!!!o > E > The courts have ruled on more than one occaision that Microsoft has,C > bent if not openly broken the law to take the marketshare it has.s< > And even given this, look at the marketshare held by Unix. > E > And to get this back on topic, look at how inspite of these adverseRF > conditions the marketshare of Unix is continuing to grow.  If VMS isF > in fact superior to all of them, why is it's marketshare shrinking??G > And how do we reverse this trend??  Bashing Unix just doesn't seem tol > be helping much.  There is a simple reason. The VMS way is for a small percentage of people who like to do things systematically and concentrate on real problems instead of using much of their energy for coping with crap like the UNIX shells, the UNIX commands and the quality-less philosophy of UNIX kernel implementations. Read the history of UNIX. There will never be a big percentage of marke share for VMS because this requires the people to change.   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:54:24 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>m" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA6A50.D8EEEABF@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > : > In article <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>,* >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > |>K > |> MVS! What could be easier than $ MCR AUTHORIZE MODI USER/PASS=password  > 9 > How about: adduser userid "" "" "John Q. User" passwordl > E > With the two placeholders being for login groups and login class if / > you choose to provide other than the default.r >  > |>E > |> Most sites will create a simple DCL menu for tasks such as these6 > |> anyway. > 3 > And this is different (or easier than) Unix how??  >  > |>H > |> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,K > |> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basicGK > |> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableoH > |> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2 > |>E > |> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fullyr" > |> available in about 5 minutes. > E > Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too.AD > But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine. > I > |>                               Yes I can think of more time consumingmK > |> ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster commonv& > |> startup files what's the problem? > H > The problem is that it assumes multiple machines running in a cluster,I > which was not the original argument.  We were talking about OS installsT > and which was easier.o >  > |>I > |> But that's not happening. We are getting via DII COE Unix shells ando/ > |> APIs back as well as a faster file system.o > E > The first is a badn-aid at best.  Remember POSIX.  It promised, butuB > did not deliver, the same thing.  And the last is a promise fromB > someone who, based on the comments we see here from more seriousE > VMS advocates than I will ever be, is most likely just making empty . > promises with no plan to ever deliver on it. >  > |> > |> >E > |> >You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new Unix G > |> >systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to theaH > |> >number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andF > |> >tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > |> >VMS vs. Unix.  > |>K > |> The majority of the world doesn't understand VMS so they cant possiblyl$ > |> share a VMS advocates opinions. > H > Understand it.  The majority of the world has never even heard of VMS.I > But they have heard (and seen) enough of Unix to know hogwash when theyuG > see it.  It's time for VMS to stop saying how good it is and actually   > show someone where it matters.   In situations where the qualities of VMS matter and the managers have enough brain like stock exchange or production control systems VMS is in charge. Is there any UNIX system in such a place?     > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:02:12 +0000D) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA6C24.AAD65BD7@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > : > In article <0gbfat02o4iqje8a1k7ftl3bg6asvp4ccl@4ax.com>,* >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > |>K > |> MVS! What could be easier than $ MCR AUTHORIZE MODI USER/PASS=passwordg > 9 > How about: adduser userid "" "" "John Q. User" password-  USorry you obviously don't get it. The shell user interface is severely broken. There are countless examples of that. In this case: having a list of parameters of similar or same type denoting different things without beeing forced to specify for what they are *is* crap. How do you remember the correct order? Why would you like to remember?0You can try the command without parameters and hope it will tell you. Most UNIX commands will only tell you a short list of options and parameters without telling you what their meaning is. So you look in man which is also crap because it is not structured.   What about an official contest payed by a few people of this group? We ask some students without much UNIX and VMS experience and teach them a few tasks and the principles of VMS and UNIX. Then we ask them what they think is 'better' and we let them pass a test.  E > With the two placeholders being for login groups and login class ift/ > you choose to provide other than the default.p >  > |>E > |> Most sites will create a simple DCL menu for tasks such as these? > |> anyway. > 3 > And this is different (or easier than) Unix how??n >  > |>H > |> >and takes longer on VMS.  Installations??  I can take a brand new,K > |> >fresh out of the box, machine and have it fully loaded with the basiceK > |> >OS and integrated into oue environment (that means totally accessableeH > |> >by all my users) in under an hour.  How difficult is it??  After 2 > |>E > |> Hmm I can boot a workstation from scratch into our cluster fullyr" > |> available in about 5 minutes. > E > Apples and oranges.  I can add a diskless machine in 5 minutes too. D > But we were talking about actually installing the OS on a machine. > I > |>                               Yes I can think of more time consumingWK > |> ways to do it but with a cluster common system disk and cluster commont& > |> startup files what's the problem? > H > The problem is that it assumes multiple machines running in a cluster,I > which was not the original argument.  We were talking about OS installsd > and which was easier.  >  > |>I > |> But that's not happening. We are getting via DII COE Unix shells andl/ > |> APIs back as well as a faster file system.  > E > The first is a badn-aid at best.  Remember POSIX.  It promised, butfB > did not deliver, the same thing.  And the last is a promise fromB > someone who, based on the comments we see here from more seriousE > VMS advocates than I will ever be, is most likely just making emptyi. > promises with no plan to ever deliver on it. >  > |> > |> >E > |> >You want significant statistics??  Go look at how many new UnixpG > |> >systems went into operation last calendar year. Compare it to thelH > |> >number of new VMS systems for the same period.  Then come back andF > |> >tell me that the rest of the world shares your opinion regarding > |> >VMS vs. Unix.w > |>K > |> The majority of the world doesn't understand VMS so they cant possiblyc$ > |> share a VMS advocates opinions. > H > Understand it.  The majority of the world has never even heard of VMS.I > But they have heard (and seen) enough of Unix to know hogwash when they1G > see it.  It's time for VMS to stop saying how good it is and actuallyj  > show someone where it matters. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:19:16 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>." Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA7024.4645E24A@infopuls.com>   May I ask all participants not to forget that installing a system is the least time consuming operation in administration over the lifetime of a system. Changing the system by adding new software, hardware and giving the user more possibilities in using the companies resources is part of the administration tasks. And there are more. If we want to know TCO we have to look at those.   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > In article <G02+6ZOynIWD@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > >  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:d > |> In article <98b70n$f7f$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:: > |> > In article <uvXKzE$s9$LY@eisner.encompasserve.org>,C > |> >  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e	 > |> > |>iQ > |> > |> As regards adding usernames for "all my users", that clearly depends onyT > |> > |> the size of "all".  It will take a university longer than LJK Software :-) > |> >H > |> > No, it doesn't.  I use a central server for authentication so allH > |> > users have immediate access to the machine as soon as it is added > |> > to the network. > |>R > |> Fine.  I can COPY SYSUAF.DAT NEWAXP"SYSTEM MANAGER"::SYS$COMMON:[SYSUAF] too, > N > Well, I can copy the password file too.  But then keeping all those password > files synced is a nightmare. > S > |> but I did say standalone machine.  Your earlier requirement was "no clusters",o > J > I would hardly consider querying a server for passwordds as a "cluster".I > If you do, then there is not a Unix system in existence that hasn't hadc1 > "clustering technology" for more than a decade.e > N > |> so in response to my "standalone" example you now say "networked, but not > |> clustered". > K > "Networked" as in capable of accessing all the resources of the Internet. M > Something I would assume was somewhat of a requirement for most sites othersI > than classified .gov machines.  That is in most cases an option for VMSM4 > while it is the default for the rest of the world. > O > |>              That is certainly drawing the rules to suit your purpose, buto- > |> it does not beat the copy command above.x >  > OK.  >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:34:59 +0000d) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>M" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <3AAA73D3.368476B@infopuls.com>   MI wished I had the chance to intercept this FreeBSD discussion. It doesn't matter to the discussion if there is perfectly stable UNIX around. The problem is the lack of design and concepts, the problem is the shell syntax (if one can say so) and the broken API a.s.o.. Again: it doesn't matter if there is working UNIX system around.t   Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:7 > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:n" > > > Are FreeBSD a huge success ? > >tE > > I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendors A > > listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery. * > > Realize this is just a quick snapshot. > > > I just looked at the commercial software vendor list. Mostly9 > small unknown companies. It did not say "succes" to me.h > - > > > > #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??e > > >o3 > > > Yes. DEC OSF/1 = Digital Unix = Compaq Tru64.e > > G > > Another case of throwing out a proven product with over a decade ofoJ > > development behind it in favor of an untested re-write.  How far aheadI > > would thay have been if they had not gone back to the beginning again N > > but instead had continued on with the development of their solid product?? > I > > > Ultrix only ran on VAX and the MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. DEC & > > > OSF/1 was introduced with Alpha. > >hH > > Ultrix heritage goes further back than that.  I have recently helpedI > > with a revival of Ultrix-11 which does a real good job of getting thea) > > most out of some really slim systems.s > >hL > > Ultrix could have been ported to the Alpha in a fraction of the time andJ > > effort that was put into writting OSF1.  And it would have already hadM > > the advantage of all the bugs that had been squashed during it's previousp
 > > lives. > J > I do not think I have ever heard many complaints about the Ultrix -> DEC > OSF/1n > move.i > J > I have heard a lot of complaints about DEC OSF/1 not being ported to VAX& > and MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. > P > > > > #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix)E > > > >      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.  > > > F > > > I know that many agrees. If not for other reasons, then just for! > > > the troubles in the switch.i > > 8 > > Thr trouble in the switch was trivial in most cases. > E > There were definatetly some cases where porting was a huge problem.n > J > > > >                                                    Solaris 1 neverP > > > > existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple versions > > > > of SunOS.e > > > K > > > SUN used the names Solaris 1.0 and 1.1. We can call them SunOS 4.x ifw > > > you prefer.  > >rG > > They were SunOS.  The Solaris name was added afterwards.  All of myw > > CD's say Sunos 4.1.?.a >  > And ?t > . > If SUN calls it Solaris 1.1, then it exists. > J > In the VMS world we talked a lot about UCX 3.x and 4.x, because the nameI > "Digital TCP/IP" never really catched on. But we would never claim thats! > "Digital TCP/IP" never existed.r > L > >                       Again, a marketing ploy intended to decieve peopleM > > into thinking there was a history to Solaris.  Internally, there was onlyt+ > > the minimum of similarity between them.h >  > Ofcourse. BSD->SYSV. >  > Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:38:10 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA7492.4A045235@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > + > In article <3AA88DC9.C5A8A26F@gtech.com>,hB >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:3: > |> > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:% > |> > > Are FreeBSD a huge success ?o > |> >H > |> > I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendorsD > |> > listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery.- > |> > Realize this is just a quick snapshot.  > |>A > |> I just looked at the commercial software vendor list. Mostlyh< > |> small unknown companies. It did not say "succes" to me. > @ > And the list of major companies who have announced in the last@ > year that they intend to port their software to VMS is where??B > In 1975 Microsoft was a small unknown company with two employees > and one product. >  > |>M > |> I do not think I have ever heard many complaints about the Ultrix -> DECo > |> OSF/1 move. > : > What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"@ > What exactly did OSF1 bring to the table that Ultrix-32 didn't > already offer??l  Sorry, this is exactly the broken UNIX advocates and C/C++ programmers attitude which leads to fat and ununderstandable systems and prevent any real progress. That's why the world needs a system like VMS to much because it was designed and aimed to quality. C There are other reasons to change something than only to fix a bug.n   > |>M > |> I have heard a lot of complaints about DEC OSF/1 not being ported to VAXs) > |> and MIPS based DEC-stations/systems.e > E > Probably because it coincided with the end of Ultrix-32 developmentiC > which left VAX Unix users stranded.  BSD at that time was OK, buti > Ultrix-32 had real support.c >  > |>1 > |> If SUN calls it Solaris 1.1, then it exists.? > 9 > And if I call my car a bus will it hold 64 passengers??' > 5 > Renaming SunOS after the fact was a marketing ploy.  >  > |> > |> Ofcourse. BSD->SYSV.  > @ > If this is supposed to mean that SYSV was  descended from BSD,( > you must know nothing of Unix history. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:31:23 +0000.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>|" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA72FB.DDD5FECF@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Arne [iso-8859-1] Vajhj wrote:- >  > >a  > > Are FreeBSD a huge success ? > C > I don't know, visit their website, look at the commercial vendorsk? > listed as partners, look at the sites in the FreeBSD gallery.nF > Realize this is just a quick snapshot.  Consider that their web siteC > (a totally passive form of advertising) is the sum total of theirhK > marketing efforts.  Then tell me if you think they are successful or not.b > F > Compaq claims to be actively marketing VMS and yet you don;t see newI > vendors porting commercial products to it.  You don't see any noticable H > number of sites moving to it.  Which is more successful??  What is the& > standard you want to measure it by??  zCompaq doesn't market VMS. Instead it even prevents customers from buying VMS in several ways. The disadvantages of VMS compared to every free or open source OS are many and renders your way of arguing as pure lack of understanding the market, quality of OSs, business decision processes, modern trends in EDP industry and a list of other conditions I don't want to mention now.  UPorting commercial products from one UNIX to another is much less effort than porting it to a true VMS app. Look at the Mac. There are much more vendors porting their products from Windows 3.11 to Windows 95 to Windows 98 to Windows ME to W2k than to the Macintosh. Did you ever ask yourself why? Is this a technical arguement about quality.y  ] And again the number of systems is no technical quality criterion. When would you learn that?h   Sorry to state that: you give an example of the sloppy UNIX and C/C++ attitude in thinking and doing. Lack of methodology, lack of understanding logical concepts. Sorry.h  B > > Linux and Solaris has a huge market-share of the Unix market ! > >iD > > I would consider it rather relevant to use in a discussion about > > "Unix".  > H > The power of marketing.  A good salesman can sell iceboxes to eskimos.   Objection, your honour! If you remember what you wrote about marketing of UNIX you may detect that you are contradicting yourself.   > >e+ > > > #2:  isn't Tru64 just OSF1 rebadged??k > >m1 > > Yes. DEC OSF/1 = Digital Unix = Compaq Tru64.. > E > Another case of throwing out a proven product with over a decade of H > development behind it in favor of an untested re-write.  How far aheadG > would thay have been if they had not gone back to the beginning againnL > but instead had continued on with the development of their solid product?? >  > > N > > > #3:  The change from SunOS (BSD based Unix) to Solaris (SYSV based Unix)C > > >      was, in my experience the biggest mistake Sun ever made.  > >sD > > I know that many agrees. If not for other reasons, then just for > > the troubles in the switch.g > F > Thr trouble in the switch was trivial in most cases.  Originally theE > biggest problem was just keeping it up.  Of course, if their intent C > was to sell more hardware, it was the right direction to go.  The E > demand on system resources is so much greater it won't even run anyn > older hardware.n >  > >sG > > Ultrix only ran on VAX and the MIPS based DEC-stations/systems. DEC $ > > OSF/1 was introduced with Alpha. > F > Ultrix heritage goes further back than that.  I have recently helpedG > with a revival of Ultrix-11 which does a real good job of getting the#' > most out of some really slim systems.- > J > Ultrix could have been ported to the Alpha in a fraction of the time andH > effort that was put into writting OSF1.  And it would have already hadK > the advantage of all the bugs that had been squashed during it's previous< > lives. >  > >fH > > >                                                    Solaris 1 neverN > > > existed.  It was a name given after the fact to the last couple versions > > > of SunOS.a > >rI > > SUN used the names Solaris 1.0 and 1.1. We can call them SunOS 4.x if  > > you prefer.t > E > They were SunOS.  The Solaris name was added afterwards.  All of mysK > CD's say Sunos 4.1.?.  Again, a marketing ploy intended to decieve peoplenK > into thinking there was a history to Solaris.  Internally, there was onlye) > the minimum of similarity between them.e >  > >bK > > >            I don't think real Solaris showed up until after 1995, butoN > > > I would have to go back an look at records to tell.  It wouldn't be thatN > > > hard.  All I have to do is look for the point at which we stopped buying > > > from Sun.u > >dK > > I was not sure about the year mysekf, so I looked it up on www.sun.com.a > >mK > > Note that they were selling both 1.1 and early 2.x at the same time andd > F > Of course they were.  Because 1.1 was SunOS 4.1.4.  The Solaris nameH > was only applied after the fact.  It may have had something to do withI > the fact that 4.1.4 was released out of necessity after Sun had alreadyuJ > announced that there would be no more releases of SunOS.  A large numberH > of security bugs had to be fixed and real Solaris was not hardly readyI > for prime time yet.  I think if you can track down real dates, you willtC > find that Solaris 2.0 was actually released before "Solaris" 1.1.l > F > > I think it was first around 2.4 or something that Solaris 2 really
 > > took off.a > J > 2.4 or 2.5, yes.  We had pretty much given up on it by then.  Of course,E > that too could have been an excellent opportunity for DEC/Compaq tosH > get back into the educational market, but it was a missed opportunity.G > PC's with Windows and Linux made some of their biggest in-roads then.b > & > And the rest as they say is history. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2001 02:15:12 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87vgphebin.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:  % > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, JF Mezei wrote:   e > > Alan Greig wrote:d  > > > > Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be6 > > > economical to keep RA8x disks online these days.  fC > > Efficient source of heating for those in cold climates ? ( this D > > means you only use the RA80s during fall, winter and spring, notD > > in the summer).  RA82 had 1/3hp electric motors, complete with a? > > brake, multiple fans, and the HDA is quite useful as a boat D > > anchor. The drawers also offer lots of stoarge space once you're > > gutted the insides.a   B > There's worse.  I have an SMD salvaged off a GEAC library systemA > that I can't even give away.  I fear it is shortly destined forn > dismantling and the dumpster.s  G I have an Eagle behind me. And powed up 4 NEC SMD drives the other day.o You want HEAT??   C I am supprised to see that any 81s are still going though. But, thefC black HDA where pretty good. The only failures I can remember wherepA the servo board, or gluitis in the golds. ( Steelworks excluded )r   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2001 02:03:12 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87zoetec2n.fsf@prep.synonet.com>3  7 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:s  6 > I've gotten a lot of mail on my comments on Sun Ray.  A > 1) As I said, the only thing cool about these is the smart-card @ > authentication, and the ability to move your session simply by? > plugging in your card at another SunRay connected to the samet	 > server.i   ...i  9 > 7) Smart card authentication is something that I see astF > up-and-comming over the next couple years, especially as USB becomes@ > widespread, and once we start seeing cheap KB/mouse/smart-card > combo's available.  B There was a version of the HP RX software that did this to go with5 Secure HPUX. They also had a local floppy, sound etc.l  D I'm am unimpressed with many of the claims made for smart cards, butB they will be more and more wide spread. The pull it, and return to* your session is nice. Core re-invented! :)   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.N@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:52:35 +0000O) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>O" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA77F3.EFD8134F@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <9MAR200100222034@gerg.tamu.edu>,, >  carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:P > |> In article <988tu8$2dtn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu writes...H > |> }yes, after 20 years of Admining Unix systems I am as good at it as5 > |> }someone who has been Admining VMS for 20 years.t > |> > |> Are you? How do you know? > |>G > |> What makes you think you are any better at it than a VMS admin who 1 > |> has been at it for only 10 years, or just 5?e > |> >  > OK, you win.  I give up. > A > Unix is impossible to use and any three year old can Admin VMS.  > ; > All those Unix system throughout the world are imaginary.  > 9 > Universities will flock to VMS no matter what the cost.  > G > VMS's superiority will guarantee it's survival into the next century.e > E > Just keep telling yourselves that and everything will be just fine.i >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   If you really give up you have to give up mixing different layers, swapping dimensions and comparing apples and oranges. I don't repeat the logical mistakes you make very time - others pointed them out as well.  But instead: here is another reason why it's necessary to have so many books on UNIX. Besides the unusable documentation which comes with the system there so many different and obscure ways to do things you have to learn because you will have to deal with all these possibilities as others before you did and you have to understand what they did. And also these people who were admining the machine you took over had no guidance or rules how to do things because there were so many roads and no concepts.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:43:54 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>i" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAA75EA.B638A083@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > : > In article <1acfatoe2s3qijg4tdm6uie2b61j781043@4ax.com>,* >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > |>K > |> So now we know. 20 years of Unix experience and Unix is as easy to useiK > |> as VMS. I would argue you need far less time to reach proficiency as af > |> VMS admin > D > yes, after 20 years of Admining Unix systems I am as good at it asE > someone who has been Admining VMS for 20 years.  What's the problemhC > with that??  Or are you hinting that people are born with all theVG > knowledge necesaary to Admin VMS??  I seem to recall a query a littlecG > while ago about the ages of people here and it seemed most of the VMS G > experts had been at it for rather a long time.  Sys Admin is a trade,oF > just like any other.  You learn it over time.  You have to learn theI > jargon and all the vagaries of the systems involved.  It doesn't matteraG > wether it's VMS or Unix.  With time comes experience.  And being goody4 > at one doesn't automatically make the other wrong. > B > What I am trying to get accross to people here is that VMS is inA > direct competition with Unix.  Unix is cheaper.  Unix is not aseF > hard to set up, maintain or use as some here would have you believe.D > That makes the taskof competing with it even harder.  You may findA > Unix jargon obscure, but the rest of the world does not.  Visit H > you local Waldenbooks or Borders or Barnes&Noble.  How many Unix/LinuxE > books are on the shelf??  How many VMS??  The time has come to stoptB > fighting the battle by denigrating the competition, cause nobodyD > who matters is listening.  The people who are making the decisionsH > about the next machine for Big Company INC. know all about Unix/Linux.@ > They have never heard of VMS.  They are not convinced by emptyB > arguments about Unix TCO being higher.  They have a Linux box inD > their house and have been running it since they were in school andA > it isn't hard for them to maintain.  They hav enever seen a VMSy= > box.  Which one do you think they are likely to recommend??w  0 And is this a technical argument about quality??   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:37:10 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>- Message-ID: <87u252ge2h.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> writes:e  F > Compaq certainly needs to re-do the pricing of all of its systems inE > light of the major price drops in memory in the past 3 or 4 months.5  E Amen! PC commodity memory, decent stuff, not the nameless soldered onAG a DIMM marginals, runs at about 60c/MB at the moment, and falling. ThatoE is about $0.31US/MB. Scale for ECC, add a pinck for lower volume, andnD you are still WAY short of what is asked for 'real' memory by system vendors.  / Current 'prices' on The Reg for a 64Mb chip are    6 cigs Half a pint> 4 Mars barsp 3 pints of milkt   -- s< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.f@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:00:34 -0500r- From: "Island Computers" <sales@islandco.com>i( Subject: Re: NEW Compaq Memory for ES40>/ Message-ID: <takcpk8s0tq353@corp.supernews.com>I   I'll take the Mars Barse  H Seriously people - we are not trying to blinker anyone - but IF you MUSTK have the ORIGINAL (or at least stickered Compaq) memory, then you'll save ar bunchtI That is all I am saying - oh - and if anyone here has had any issues withyH COmpaq regarding their support call on a system with third party memory,, then I am sure we would all like to hear it.G FYI - Camintonn's sales have fallen due to Compaq's "support agreement"a being cancelled outn   DT   -- David Turner Island Computers US Corporatione 2700 Gregory Streetx Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622o Fax:912 201 0096 sales@islandco.com9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messages' news:87u252ge2h.fsf@prep.synonet.com...i1 | Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> writes:V |UH | > Compaq certainly needs to re-do the pricing of all of its systems inG | > light of the major price drops in memory in the past 3 or 4 months.  | G | Amen! PC commodity memory, decent stuff, not the nameless soldered onSI | a DIMM marginals, runs at about 60c/MB at the moment, and falling. ThatYG | is about $0.31US/MB. Scale for ECC, add a pinck for lower volume, and,F | you are still WAY short of what is asked for 'real' memory by system
 | vendors. | 1 | Current 'prices' on The Reg for a 64Mb chip arev |  | 6 cigs
 | Half a pint 
 | 4 Mars bars  | 3 pints of milkr |n | --> | Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 | +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-B |                                              West Australia 60760 | Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:57:16 +0000r+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>9/ Subject: Re: New memory in VAX 4000/90 not seenu' Message-ID: <3AAA32BC.9BBF1955@iee.org>h   Hoff Hoffman wrote:e > d > In article <3aa99f52.0@cfanews.harvard.edu>, "Gareth V. Williams" <graff@cfa0.harvard.edu> writes:  > :Hoff Hoffman <hoffman> wrote: >  > :KA49-A V1.3-0BC-V4.4  71 MHZi > H >   V1.4 is current, though that is likely not relevent to this problem. >  > :08-00-2B-30-92-EA > :16MBe  , Not that this will help Gareth any, but mine- on my desk in the office says V1.4 and 83MHz.e) Does that mean I have had a 90A all theseo years and not realised it?     > I >   That is the VAX console program for the KA49 CPU that sees only 16MB,dG >   which would imply something is wrong with the CPU or the memory (orn= >   the installation) -- a low-level failure, in other words.a >   + If all the memory boards are 16MB variants  ' then there's not much that can go wrongn! other than broken hardware. (With % a mixture of 4x4MB and 4x126MB boardso% the 16MB boards must go into bank 0).t  ' I did *once* have a problem on either aa& VS4000-60 or VS4000-90 with a sligthly) mangled memory socket. It looked slightlyl% different when compared to the othersS& and needed a magnifying glass to truly% identify the problem. A single sliverW( of gold connector had "jumped out of its- groove". Difficult to describe accurately buto( trivial (if somewhat tricky) to fix with' a sharp metal point (I used a compass)   and slight force.m  + Don't try this at home until you have tried * everything else ... if you break something  it was nothing to do with me :-)    ) Try 4x16MB modules in bank 0 and then thek( same 4 in bank 1. If they don't work in , either bank, they are almost certainly dead.  , Repeat for the second set of 4x16MB modules.  - At this point you should be able to determineu, the health of each set of memory modules and# the health of each bank of sockets.m     Antonio      --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgu   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:52:58 -0600u% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>j/ Subject: Re: New memory in VAX 4000/90 not seenD' Message-ID: <3AAA69FA.6AE74846@isd.net>e   "Gareth V. Williams" wrote:  > H > Here's the problem.  I have just replaced 4 x 4MB memory in one of ourL > old VAXes with 8 x 16 MB memory boards.  When the system was restarted theF > initial banner still indicated only 16 MB.  I was expecting that theI > hardware should see the new memory automatically even if the OS didn't.S > F > Once the system was rebooted, I followed the instructions in the FAQ7 > about adding memory.  After the rebooot, still 16 MB.a > I > Since RAM boards need to be added in fours in this model, I don't think & > that the new memory can be at fault. >  > Running SYSGEN shows > SYSGEN>  SHOW PHYSICALPAGESbR > Parameter Name            Current    Default     Min.     Max.     Unit  DynamicR > --------------            -------    -------    -------  -------   ----  -------H > PHYSICALPAGES              262144    1048576      2048   7340032 Pages >  > but: > $ show memB >               System Memory Resources on  9-MAR-2001 18:55:58.10 > N > Physical Memory Usage (pages):     Total        Free      In Use    ModifiedN >   Main Memory (16.00Mb)            32768        8687       23058        1023 > etc. >  > Any thoughts?s >  > --J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------J > Gareth V. Williams, MS 18, 60 Garden Street, Cambridge, MA 02138, U.S.A.- > Associate Director, IAU Minor Planet CenterhJ > gwilliams@cfa.harvard.edu        http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iau/mpc.html9 > OpenVMS & RISC OS: refined choices in operating systems   H I had this problem once on a 4000/90.  My problem was that I had put theF new memory into the wrong slots.  I don't recall how the memory shouldG be arranged but I believe that Hoff addressed this in one of his posts.e   -- d Keith Brown. kbrown780@isd.nets   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:24:46 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>0 Subject: Re: Newbie question - VMS Documentation& Message-ID: <3AA9D6A0.5C2392C8@gmx.ch>  2 But do not send the HELP command to Infovax... :-)  6 Infovax is a mailing list on VMS, handled by Listserv.= To know more about Listserv, it's here: http://www.lsoft.com/    D. "Help" expert    " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > ) > ...And don't forget the "HELP" command.e   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Mar 2001 14:36:20 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)a= Subject: OT: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG>a' Message-ID: <98de54$j9b$1@joe.rice.edu>n  D The Russian Mafia has done a "Good Thing" by increasing the TCO  :-)D of using Microsoft's Windows:                                    :-)  3   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17456.htmlO4   Russian Mafia uses NT flaws to raid Internet banks  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 10:59:19 -05007 From: hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)lX Subject: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG>3 Message-ID: <r2R0M36kzzqb@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  s In article <P1sq6.1988$G76.3437846@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:h > 8 > "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message# > news:98de54$j9b$1@joe.rice.edu...t <snip> >>6 >>   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17456.html > I > Quintessential bullies, those Russian Mafiosi... why don't they pick on ) > something their own size, like OpenVMS.n > N > The article (and the official source from which it came) provide yet anotherD > proof point that OpenVMS is a Better Answer than Windoze aNyThing. >  > N Can it be argued (after reading the article) that it was not the use of WinNT,H but rather the *mis*use (not applying patches to fix several-years-known@ vunerabilities) of the OS that led to this current tragi-comedy?  L Were these systems administered by MCSEs?  Is the quality of MCSE courses soG poor that security becomes an afterthought, rather than a basic?  Is it M possible to mis-administer a VMS system in such a way that a similar incident  could occur on that system?m   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2001 01:26:56 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <Vu- Message-ID: <874rx1fsbj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>r  9 hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:   F > Can it be argued (after reading the article) that it was not the use@ > of WinNT, but rather the *mis*use (not applying patches to fix@ > several-years-known vunerabilities) of the OS that led to this > current tragi-comedy?s  E Oh please. I regard anyone who uses a less that C2 system is culpableaF of gross negligence at least. Not adding the bandaids just adds to it.    rC > Were these systems administered by MCSEs?  Is the quality of MCSE F > courses so poor that security becomes an afterthought, rather than aE > basic?  Is it possible to mis-administer a VMS system in such a waym5 > that a similar incident could occur on that system?s  F Yes, it is possible to have a MISmanaged system of any sort. Just thatE one vendor stands out like a sore thumb for holes and exploits. Plus,lB even if the system was set up, and patches where applied you stillB have the problem of virii, etc that we have come to know and love.  A The motto should be: " You *will* be fired for buying Microsoft."m   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 17:03:40 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues- Message-ID: <873dcmhu6r.fsf@prep.synonet.com>d  , WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> writes:  B > Don't forget to punch the button to turn off the cache batteries > after you shut down!  F Wouldn't this be an ideal opertunity to test the batteries and replace
 if needed?   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:13:07 -0500l2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>, Subject: Re: Prolonged power shutdown issues7 Message-ID: <200103101213_MC2-C864-32FF@compuserve.com>c  & Message text written by Paul Repacholi- >WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> writes:n  B > Don't forget to punch the button to turn off the cache batteries > after you shut down!  F Wouldn't this be an ideal opertunity to test the batteries and replace
 if needed? <i   It depends!!!!  J I seem to recall that none of the HSx RAID controllers will permit access=  J to a RAID set  until it has what it considers adequate battery backup.  I= f J I'm correct, running the batteries flat, even if they will recharge, mean= s J that you are down untill the batteries are charged or replaced.  That's n= otJ anywhere I'd want to be with a production system.  You would be relying o= n H Compaq to have spare batteries with an adequate charge and to be able to' get them to your site and install them.a  J Now if you are really paranoid, you could keep your own set of spares und= er
 charge. . . .    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:38:21 +0100 # From: "asmeda" <asmeda@virgilio.it> ( Subject: R: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers, Message-ID: <98cvtk$esg$1@serv1.albacom.net>  7 Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in messagea 3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch...vG > How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the info-VAX 	 list? AreeG > we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily operations in the world (we  could.G > create a club) or most of the readers/participants use a news browsert instead? >l > D. Where is this info-VAX ? DANKEN .   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:49:03 GMTc4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>= Subject: Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$ Products <VBG>e< Message-ID: <P1sq6.1988$G76.3437846@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:98de54$j9b$1@joe.rice.edu...iF > The Russian Mafia has done a "Good Thing" by increasing the TCO  :-)F > of using Microsoft's Windows:                                    :-) >-5 >   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17456.html 6 >   Russian Mafia uses NT flaws to raid Internet banks >   G Quintessential bullies, those Russian Mafiosi... why don't they pick ono' something their own size, like OpenVMS.j  L The article (and the official source from which it came) provide yet anotherB proof point that OpenVMS is a Better Answer than Windoze aNyThing.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Mar 2001 09:05:51 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall),/ Subject: Re: Variation in c.o.v. delivery delayg5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-lFd3I8c7Mrmd@localhost>0  E On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:58:24, "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> l wrote:   >....lM > The obvious question is whether the info-vax gateway might be the source ofcI > the variation, but within the last half-hour I received gatewayed notes A > that were posted Friday, 3/2, at 5:19 PM, and today at 2:44 PM.a > K > Are other people seeing variations of up to a week in delivery delay?  IsaM > there a pattern of gatewayed notes being more delay?  Any other insights tor > offer?  
 Hi RichardF                       yes I seem to be seeing some odd delivery times.F There was a post from Brian asking me a question, which I answered via* quote, that I still haven't seen here yet.  C I haven't done a quantative analysis tho'. I was even beginning to a doubt the my news-reader.d   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:59:46 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>$ Subject: [fun] DCL minute of the day& Message-ID: <3AAA4F50.6B9397E6@gmx.ch>   ISLKP1_mgr> dir toto.txt  % Directory PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]h  H TOTO.TXT;1                             1/18      10-MAR-2001 16:54:53.65   Total of 1 file, 1/18 blocks.i ISLKP1_mgr> ty toto.txtaL %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]TOTO.TXT; -RMS-E-FNF, file not found ISLKP1_mgr>   I This one is an old one, but for a week-end, it may please some beginners.e   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:20:13 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) ( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <009F8CE4.EBDCC0C5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <3AAA4F50.6B9397E6@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:  >ISLKP1_mgr> dir toto.txtk >a& >Directory PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR] >eI >TOTO.TXT;1                             1/18      10-MAR-2001 16:54:53.65n >| >Total of 1 file, 1/18 blocks. >ISLKP1_mgr> ty toto.txtM >%TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]TOTO.TXT;  >-RMS-E-FNF, file not founde
 >ISLKP1_mgr>   >jJ >This one is an old one, but for a week-end, it may please some beginners. >c >D.   " Post the output of $ DUMP TOTO.TXT   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             eO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:12:31 GMTa, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>% Subject: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers & Message-ID: <3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch>  O How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the info-VAX list? ArenK we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily operations in the world (we couldrN create a club) or most of the readers/participants use a news browser instead?   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:17:01 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribersh& Message-ID: <3AAA0D2D.C1A384E0@gmx.ch>   send one mail message to   LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UGA.EDUl   with the command:@   subscribe info-vax   in the body of the message.4N When you receive a message saying that you have been registered as a potentialM subscriber, confirm your subscription by replying to the ack mail WITHOUT anya other text than:     ok  F then you will receive another mail confirming that you are subscribed.M To receive a daily digest, send a third mail message to the same address withe	 the text:c   set info-vax mail digest  O For the moment this is all I discovered by myself, but fortunately, it seems to 9 be enough as I got your message right into my mailbox :-)c  	 opzatelps  D.  
 asmeda wrote:r   > Where is this info-VAX ?   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Mar 2001 12:57:11 +0100O From: pmoreau@dev.ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)e) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribersn  Message-ID: <3mVuToMG47Q+@sable>  U In article <3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:oQ > How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the info-VAX list? AreoM > we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily operations in the world (we coulddP > create a club) or most of the readers/participants use a news browser instead? >   H Like many others, I read comp.os.vms since many years via Useset (News) + not info-vax. Dont' worry, we are many ....l   Patrick  --O ===============================================================================iO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)i4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================m   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:55:27 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers-& Message-ID: <3AAA4E4F.9549E79B@gmx.ch>   Ah ! I feel less alone :-)   D.  8 "Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40" wrote: > I > Like many others, I read comp.os.vms since many years via Useset (News)y- > not info-vax. Dont' worry, we are many ....    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.138 ************************