1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 12 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 142       Contents:' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' RE: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? . Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news * BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug?. Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug?. Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug?$ Re: CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 200$ Re: CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 2005 Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How? 5 Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How? . Re: Dates (was Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing)  Deassigning system wide logicals$ Re: Deassigning system wide logicals$ Re: Deassigning system wide logicals* Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)* Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educational   Program)P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr/ Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN  Re: Janitor fixes 90L  Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote RE: Low cost workstations  RE: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations N Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available fordownload0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program P Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$Products <VBP Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$Products <VB  Re: Possible security hole in... Question on Patches  Re: Question on Patches ( Setting the Time Zone for UCX/NFS Mounts6 Re: SONY DLT SDT-S9000 DAT dip switch settings for VMSD RE: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Progra	m)C Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program) C Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program) C Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program) C Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program) C Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)  Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: VMS wanted list. Re: What drives the mouse ? ) Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200 - Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day ) [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock - Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock - Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock - Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock - Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock ' Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone ' Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone ' Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone   Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:33:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87ofv7e91e.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  D > > I've asked RM to hire me into exactly that position on more thanD > > one occasion. The results, so far, have been less than positive.  C Hey Dave, amybe they didn't want one with an axe an a weakess to be ) suddenly overcome by attacks of candor ;)   5 > The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.   " We know. That most of the problem.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 04:45:02 -0500 - From: daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?8 Message-ID: <334patocn2cjq9l842uu83kl0kg4kfko1p@4ax.com>  K On 11 Mar 2001 16:40:36 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  >	Which is to say....  > @ >	We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we will >	see them on Intel boxes.    . *10* Rambus channels per processor, in fact...  2 >           Compaq high-end AlphaServers will look@ >	vastly different in 2-3 years than currently shipping high-end? >	AlphaServers.  Compaq has won 7 out of 8 of the last go round C >	of Supercomputer bids, some of which are future roll-outs.  Which ? >	leads one to conclude Compaq AlphaServer division has a grand / >	story to tell.  Too bad we can't hear it yet.  >	 >				Rob  J Well....Remember they pre-sold a 256-processor box to the Feds - got muchoJ funding bucks for the deal - but by the time they actually built somethingB they could ship, the architecture could only get to 32 processors.: "Ooops! Sorry 'bout that - can you use a cluster instead?"  M The last three years have been pretty weird for Marlboro. The first 18 months L they were battered by The Big Lie out of Houston - that "the Digital merger"M was dragging down the corporate bottom line. Every time the rolled-up numbers F lurched south, corporate hacks told every media outlet that their coreK business (selling shitty peecees) was just fine - all of the money problems " were due to the pit in Marlboro...  M Well, you can work an engineer to death - as long as he thinks he's respected K for the effort. The folks at MRO clearly weren't. And the result - man, the J attrition was awesome, as a *huge* percentage of the talent discovered TheN Outside World - some for the first time in 20-something years - and the notion& of stock that actually appreciated ;-)  J Meanwhile, the Oberfuerher is taken out, Mike C steps in, and as his firstL significant action, unravels the books in public. Whoa Nellie - what have weM here? "Houston, we have a BIG problem!" The core peecee business was tanking, # big time, and no bottom in sight...   J Meanwhile the midrange Alphabits and Tandems were actually turning seriousL profits (into the 9 digit range) and in fact were holding Q's head above the# sea of "industry standard" red ink.    Gotta love the irony ;-)  1 As for Marlboro: well, some things never change:    J - the volume server segment that *carried* Alpha for the last two years isJ kaput - ALL of the engineers bailed - so the dual and quad bidness will beJ based on reselling API hardware (assuming *that* effort ever bears fruit -= which is questionable - lots o' luck on chipset development).   K - Wildfire (aka Aquarius-II with $2000 blowers) *finally* starts shipping - J three years late and still on a wing and a prayer. Will it ever recoup theM development costs - especially with the world-wide economy taking an extended 
 breather?   N - And now Marvel - yet another Platform For All Segments (No! No! We've *seen*M that movie!) - is stumbling along in the pipeline. Another technological tour L de force - in an era of cheap hardware. The honchos will tell you they'll beN able to sell these from Slates to Crates. Good luck making any money at either end...  I /daytripper (If you listen closely, you can hear Don Meredith's voice...)    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 10:01:36 GMT/ From: Josef Kolbitsch <skol@sbox.tu-graz.ac.at> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?1 Message-ID: <98i6q0$mhi$3@fstgss02.tu-graz.ac.at>   C In vmsnet.alpha Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote: G > Even Apple figured that one out eventually.  They've done pretty well 7 > since they stopped being suicidal.  You hear that, Q?   E    well, i'd say, that steven jobs always wsa _the_man_ on the stage. B    when he left the company, there was noone to really promote the    products.  ?    unfortunately jobs didn't succeed with his nextstep, but the 7    presentations were just as those at apple now ... :)    --  9 ---------------------------------------------------------   josef kolbitsch  > skol@sbox.tu-graz.ac.at,  > http://www.sbox.tu-graz.ac.at/home/s/skol9 ---------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:09:33 +0000 8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>0 Subject: RE: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BEEE6@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  K >I can still remember a product, not from DEC, in the Rainbow era called PC  VMS. No idea what  >happened to it tho..   L I remember the DEC PC with VMS well but don't remember the name: PCnnn ? . IK evaluated one but, apart from the degree of compatibility with VMS (nowhere J near 100%) it was the problem of LINKing object modules which made me loseJ interest: a LINK which took, say, 5 seconds on a VAX-11/780 took something like 25 minutes on this PC!    John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:18:13 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?* Message-ID: <3AACDAA5.84BCFBCE@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: > t > In article <VhFq6.9855$5f.2979544@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >  > > K > > And that's all I got from Charlie. Heck, he started mumbling some stuff O > > about OZIX, MERLIN, QUARTZ, CHEYENNE, and other cryptic codewords from days N > > gone by. Wish he'd be a tad more forward-looking and spill the beans about8 > > MARVEL... and the system a generation beyond MARVEL. > >  > >  >  >         Which is to say....  > H >         We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we willJ >         see them on Intel boxes.  Compaq high-end AlphaServers will lookH >         vastly different in 2-3 years than currently shipping high-endG >         AlphaServers.  Compaq has won 7 out of 8 of the last go round K >         of Supercomputer bids, some of which are future roll-outs.  Which G >         leads one to conclude Compaq AlphaServer division has a grand 7 >         story to tell.  Too bad we can't hear it yet.  >   	 Why wait.   3 The Ultra III has an onchip memory controller now.    2 Incedentally I do admire your logic Rob. 7 out of 3 8 wins for supercomputer business = a great future  0 for Alphaservers sounds great until you remember0 that sucess in the HPC space does not guarantee  sucess elsewhere.   ( If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based / machines would be widely used for as commercial  servers, which they arn't.  - Its also good to see that you havn't stopped  * selling futures. I particularly liked you + advising the guy with performance issues on  WildFire to wait for Marvel.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 09:27:47 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <cWnnu94KwPbZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <334patocn2cjq9l842uu83kl0kg4kfko1p@4ax.com>, daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> writes:M > On 11 Mar 2001 16:40:36 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  >>	Which is to say.... >>A >>	We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we will  >>	see them on Intel boxes.    > 0 > *10* Rambus channels per processor, in fact... > 3 >>           Compaq high-end AlphaServers will look A >>	vastly different in 2-3 years than currently shipping high-end @ >>	AlphaServers.  Compaq has won 7 out of 8 of the last go roundD >>	of Supercomputer bids, some of which are future roll-outs.  Which@ >>	leads one to conclude Compaq AlphaServer division has a grand0 >>	story to tell.  Too bad we can't hear it yet. >>	    > 3 > As for Marlboro: well, some things never change:   > L > - the volume server segment that *carried* Alpha for the last two years isL > kaput - ALL of the engineers bailed - so the dual and quad bidness will beL > based on reselling API hardware (assuming *that* effort ever bears fruit -? > which is questionable - lots o' luck on chipset development).  >   A 	I disagree.  The EV7 will make for a very nice quad-based server = 	and so maybe "one size fits all" isn't too far off the mark.   M > - Wildfire (aka Aquarius-II with $2000 blowers) *finally* starts shipping - L > three years late and still on a wing and a prayer. Will it ever recoup theO > development costs - especially with the world-wide economy taking an extended  > breather?  > P > - And now Marvel - yet another Platform For All Segments (No! No! We've *seen*O > that movie!) - is stumbling along in the pipeline. Another technological tour N > de force - in an era of cheap hardware. The honchos will tell you they'll beP > able to sell these from Slates to Crates. Good luck making any money at either > end... >   C 	Ah yes.  Attack of the rack-em stack-em servers.  4 or 5 years ago B 	it was attack of the killer-PCs.  And we have "dot NET" to see usA 	through with "distributed computing made right" by the Borg with ? 	Infiniband giving us truly distributed data so compute cycles  , 	are "out there" and storage is "out there".  E 	There are several problems with all this of course.  Last I checked, D 	the per port cost for switched storage will probably cost more thanE 	the server itself, maybe Infiniband's per port cost is significantly D 	cheaper?  I doubt that.  Storage over-IP?  Read Pfister's follow-up 	to that in comp.arch:  r http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pfister+infiniband+group:comp.arch&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=924890734&ic=1  B 	Infiniband is for the Datacenter.  Google's solution of course isE 	to have storage local (2 IDE drives internal to the thin-server) but C 	this is a special.  So now build a much larger infastructure, etc.  	etc.   ? 	Oh.. Marvel?  As we know, the money in a lot of these deals is C 	made on the service end.  I think Marvel will be the best high-end @ 	box in 2-3 years and that has made Sun a ton of money as we can> 	see.  We'll see how much of the industry starts loading up onA 	Marvel boxes.  Tru64 + Oracle should jumpstart them pretty well, F 	it seems.  Not only that, there are many industry segments that wouldD 	write large checks today if they can get a 10% decrease in runtimesB 	(or conversely 10% increase in real performance) so there will no> 	doubt be a need for high-end boxes in the age of systems likeG 	Google.  Google:  Destroyer of the Environment.  No doubt contributing C 	mightily to California's energy crisis (if you toss in Yahoo too).0   				Rob0   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 10:38:54 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <2ltqoHzXkFmP@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ] In article <3AACDAA5.84BCFBCE@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  > Rob Young wrote: >> ru >> In article <VhFq6.9855$5f.2979544@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:M >> > >> >L >> > And that's all I got from Charlie. Heck, he started mumbling some stuffP >> > about OZIX, MERLIN, QUARTZ, CHEYENNE, and other cryptic codewords from daysO >> > gone by. Wish he'd be a tad more forward-looking and spill the beans about 9 >> > MARVEL... and the system a generation beyond MARVEL.e >> > >> > >> o >>         Which is to say.... >> .I >>         We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we will K >>         see them on Intel boxes.  Compaq high-end AlphaServers will look I >>         vastly different in 2-3 years than currently shipping high-endKH >>         AlphaServers.  Compaq has won 7 out of 8 of the last go roundL >>         of Supercomputer bids, some of which are future roll-outs.  WhichH >>         leads one to conclude Compaq AlphaServer division has a grand8 >>         story to tell.  Too bad we can't hear it yet. >> y >  > Why wait.s > 5 > The Ultra III has an onchip memory controller now. t >     @ 	But they aren't shipping are they?  Or.. more accurately, folks= 	have ordered SunBlades in September and are still waiting ona: 	them.  Is that the typical lead-time for a SunBlade 1000?  4 > Incedentally I do admire your logic Rob. 7 out of 5 > 8 wins for supercomputer business = a great future r2 > for Alphaservers sounds great until you remember2 > that sucess in the HPC space does not guarantee  > sucess elsewhere.( >     A 	Very true.  But it does give sales and marketing folks somethingYF 	very nice to talk about and if 2 or 3 of those sites allow themselvesC 	to be "at the ready" to discuss why they went with Compaq, etc. itrB 	does make for a good testimonial (better than an eBay testimonialC 	wouldn't you say?  Caution:  land mines abound.  Have at it Andy!)w    * > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based 1 > machines would be widely used for as commercialp > servers, which they arn't.  ? 	Umm.. we know why that isn't the case.  Care to share with the < 	audience or do you wish me to follow-up on this point?  Why 	raise this point?  / > Its also good to see that you havn't stopped  , > selling futures. I particularly liked you - > advising the guy with performance issues ona > WildFire to wait for Marvel.   	Absolutely.   				Roba   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:40:50 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>I0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?H Message-ID: <y44rwzdmgt.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> writes:0  B > >	We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we will > >	see them on Intel boxes.  0 > *10* Rambus channels per processor, in fact...  0 The presentation at the last ISSC said 8 of 'em.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:43:01 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>O0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?H Message-ID: <y41ys3dmd6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  # Beyonder <beyonder@vrx.net> writes:.  G > of course, maybe I just made this up. only history knows for sure. :)   L Yes, you did. DEC and Intel settled, with a non-disclosed (Charlie?) number I of dollars (probably middle eight digits) and a red-bleeding fab changingfN hands. All in all probably a good deal for DEC. Only then did CPQ acquire DEC.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:39:31 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?* Message-ID: <3AACFBC3.90F9F079@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: > _ > In article <3AACDAA5.84BCFBCE@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:c > > Rob Young wrote: > >>w > >> In article <VhFq6.9855$5f.2979544@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:A > >> > > >> >N > >> > And that's all I got from Charlie. Heck, he started mumbling some stuffR > >> > about OZIX, MERLIN, QUARTZ, CHEYENNE, and other cryptic codewords from daysQ > >> > gone by. Wish he'd be a tad more forward-looking and spill the beans aboute; > >> > MARVEL... and the system a generation beyond MARVEL.s > >> > > >> > > >>  > >>         Which is to say.... > >>K > >>         We will see on-chip memory controllers on Alpha before we willxM > >>         see them on Intel boxes.  Compaq high-end AlphaServers will lookeK > >>         vastly different in 2-3 years than currently shipping high-end J > >>         AlphaServers.  Compaq has won 7 out of 8 of the last go roundN > >>         of Supercomputer bids, some of which are future roll-outs.  WhichJ > >>         leads one to conclude Compaq AlphaServer division has a grand: > >>         story to tell.  Too bad we can't hear it yet. > >> > > 
 > > Why wait.  > > 6 > > The Ultra III has an onchip memory controller now. > >h > I >         But they aren't shipping are they?  Or.. more accurately, folks F >         have ordered SunBlades in September and are still waiting onC >         them.  Is that the typical lead-time for a SunBlade 1000?k >   1 Yes they are, I saw 3 SunBlade 1000's recently inu/ one of the offices of the customer I advise. Ofc1 course they could have been cardboard mockups butc they wern't.  . I don't know what the lead time is perhaps you' should place an order and find out :):)n    5 > > Incedentally I do admire your logic Rob. 7 out ofo6 > > 8 wins for supercomputer business = a great future4 > > for Alphaservers sounds great until you remember3 > > that sucess in the HPC space does not guaranteem > > sucess elsewhere.o > >t > J >         Very true.  But it does give sales and marketing folks somethingO >         very nice to talk about and if 2 or 3 of those sites allow themselvestL >         to be "at the ready" to discuss why they went with Compaq, etc. itK >         does make for a good testimonial (better than an eBay testimonialaL >         wouldn't you say?  Caution:  land mines abound.  Have at it Andy!) > + > > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS baseds3 > > machines would be widely used for as commercialn > > servers, which they arn't. > H >         Umm.. we know why that isn't the case.  Care to share with theE >         audience or do you wish me to follow-up on this point?  Whyr >         raise this point?  >   A Why arn't SGI MIPS machines used much in the commercial market ??   < Could it be poor market acceptance, poor marketing, lack of ; available commercial software, lack of a salesforce who cann! open commercial customers doors.    ; Anything ring a bell with you and do any of the reasons whyt: SGI's arn't sucessfull as commercial servers have anything to do with technology ????  0 > > Its also good to see that you havn't stopped- > > selling futures. I particularly liked youd/ > > advising the guy with performance issues onM  > > WildFire to wait for Marvel. >  >         Absolutely.s >   2 I am waiting with some anticipation for the moment6 when you actually recommend an existing Compaq product3 to solve someones problem. What follows Marvel ???     Regards  Andrew Harrisona Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:15:15 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?< Message-ID: <Du7r6.3141$G76.4904137@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in message $ news:3AACFBC3.90F9F079@uk.sun.com... > Rob Young wrote: <snip> > >e >nC > Why arn't SGI MIPS machines used much in the commercial market ??h > = > Could it be poor market acceptance, poor marketing, lack ofi= > available commercial software, lack of a salesforce who cani" > open commercial customers doors?  L More likely the fact that Sun bought the family jewels from SGI's Cray brainL trust and very capably exploited same in the form of the Starfire. Which, ifJ memory serves me correctly, has enjoyed some of the highest shipment rates in the enterprise server space.p   >.4 > I am waiting with some anticipation for the moment8 > when you actually recommend an existing Compaq product4 > to solve someones problem. What follows Marvel ???  L As your competitive intel folks no doubt are aware, the Marvel followon willK be similar to the Serengeti followon. Mass quantities of CPUs on a big-arse2J switched fabric. CPQ and SUNW have very similar Server Utility strategies.J Of course, neither Serengeti nor Marvel are soup yet (if all goes well for; Sun, Serengeti should precede Marvel by as much as a year).g   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:37 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?< Message-ID: <9H7r6.3146$G76.4908942@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y41ys3dmd6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...% > Beyonder <beyonder@vrx.net> writes:. > I > > of course, maybe I just made this up. only history knows for sure. :)f >lF > Yes, you did. DEC and Intel settled, with a non-disclosed (Charlie?) numberK > of dollars (probably middle eight digits) and a red-bleeding fab changing-K > hands. All in all probably a good deal for DEC. Only then did CPQ acquirei DEC. >a  H Charlie is in rehab again, so he is unavailable for comment on the money1 that changed hands. I presume it was significant.0  K The whole Fab-6 Fiasco reflects a glaring lack of due diligence on the part,K of DEC's Board of Directors. Charlie showed me the circa-1991 Alpha numbers J (instantaneous ROI and other lies) that undoubtedly affected the decision.K The numbers were completely bogus, specious, squatulent, and unsupportable.   G Anyhoo, DEC finally got rid of the white elephant and Intel seems to beeK doing OK with it. As reported last December in the Newsletter That Takes No  Prisoners...  D "Intel Corp. isn't letting sagging sales, slumping stock prices, andL disappointing earnings get in the way of its plans to upgrade its Hudson, MAL semiconductor foundry. Intel officials on December 14 said the company plansH to spend another $750M on the former DEC Fab-6 plant, bringing the totalJ Intel Investment to $1.8B USD. The latest cash infusion comes on the heels of a CY99 $800M fab upgrade."?   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 00:35:27 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87pufnc5dc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:g  < > In article <3AACDAA5.84BCFBCE@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison$ > <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  D > > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based machines would be widely5 > > used for as commercial servers, which they arn't.E  A > 	Umm.. we know why that isn't the case.  Care to share with thew> > 	audience or do you wish me to follow-up on this point?  Why > 	raise this point?  E Interesting Andrew. Perhaps you could explain the Cray/SGI design andeF how it is going in the comercial arena. If it stays up long enough for you to post your reply that is.h   -- g< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 01:19:21 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87hf0ydhwm.fsf@prep.synonet.com>b  I Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:f  F > Yes, you did. DEC and Intel settled, with a non-disclosed (Charlie?)E > number of dollars (probably middle eight digits) and a red-bleeding C > fab changing hands. All in all probably a good deal for DEC. Onlyi > then did CPQ acquire DEC.   D Yeah, turned a white elephant ( a very elegant and nicley turned outE plachyderm, but pale nether the less ) into a bucket of cash. So thisMD sliced ??? off the price, and the cash is esentially free. You pay $E for $ for that. Made it a lot easier for the Q to get its jaws aroundw DEC.   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 12:38:40 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)u0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <XGRbFeU3Nz4A@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  ] In article <3AACFBC3.90F9F079@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:t   >> >7 >> > The Ultra III has an onchip memory controller now.c >> > >> eJ >>         But they aren't shipping are they?  Or.. more accurately, folksG >>         have ordered SunBlades in September and are still waiting on D >>         them.  Is that the typical lead-time for a SunBlade 1000? >> e > 3 > Yes they are, I saw 3 SunBlade 1000's recently in 1 > one of the offices of the customer I advise. Of 3 > course they could have been cardboard mockups butr > they wern't. > 0 > I don't know what the lead time is perhaps you) > should place an order and find out :):)  >    	Seems to be at least 6 months:   F http://www.aceshardware.com/board/general/read.php?message_id=30008802   "Hello all h  J  I ordered two Sunblade 1000 in September. I Have still not received them.H  Suns estimate is in late Mars. Since the machines I ordered cost around-  11000$ each, Sun should have good margins. "l  = 	There is another one out there that says the same.  Ordered  A 	in September and still waiting.  Those SunBlades you "saw", were  	they ordered in August?   > 6 >> > Incedentally I do admire your logic Rob. 7 out of7 >> > 8 wins for supercomputer business = a great future 5 >> > for Alphaservers sounds great until you rememberf4 >> > that sucess in the HPC space does not guarantee >> > sucess elsewhere. >> > >> aK >>         Very true.  But it does give sales and marketing folks something P >>         very nice to talk about and if 2 or 3 of those sites allow themselvesM >>         to be "at the ready" to discuss why they went with Compaq, etc. it L >>         does make for a good testimonial (better than an eBay testimonialM >>         wouldn't you say?  Caution:  land mines abound.  Have at it Andy!)f >> i, >> > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based4 >> > machines would be widely used for as commercial >> > servers, which they arn't.t >> .I >>         Umm.. we know why that isn't the case.  Care to share with thepF >>         audience or do you wish me to follow-up on this point?  Why >>         raise this point? >> c > C > Why arn't SGI MIPS machines used much in the commercial market ??  > > > Could it be poor market acceptance, poor marketing, lack of = > available commercial software, lack of a salesforce who canr# > open commercial customers doors.   > = > Anything ring a bell with you and do any of the reasons whye< > SGI's arn't sucessfull as commercial servers have anything > to do with technology ???? > 1 >> > Its also good to see that you havn't stoppede. >> > selling futures. I particularly liked you0 >> > advising the guy with performance issues on! >> > WildFire to wait for Marvel.a >> n >>         Absolutely. >> d > 4 > I am waiting with some anticipation for the moment8 > when you actually recommend an existing Compaq product > to solve someones problem.    @ 	This is a big matrix.  But one intersection whereby I recommend@ 	Compaq product is if they are having difficulty with acceptance@ 	testing of Sun boxes.  From what I understand, many folks have B 	creative workarounds for Sun crashing problems (eBay for example)@ 	but for others (APAC for example) workarounds don't cut it.  SoA 	in summary, Compaq is a far superior solution if the problem youm> 	are trying to solve is a server uptime problem.  (One example! 	among many but a very good one).n   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:50:03 +00005  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?H Message-ID: <OFE98285EA.93EF6DAC-ON80256A0D.0061C844@qedi.quintiles.com>  H Maybe, but how many were for new sales and how many to replace ones thatH screwed up and how many as backups to backups to backups to diddly squatK (sorry, diddly squat is what you get out of a cache location that you put ay% "1" in 30 seconds ago isn't it.....)?  Steve.   Terry Shannon wrote:I >>>More likely the fact that Sun bought the family jewels from SGI's Cray> brain I trust and very capably exploited same in the form of the Starfire. Which,  ifJ memory serves me correctly, has enjoyed some of the highest shipment rates" in the enterprise server space.<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:56:41 -0800r! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?D Message-ID: <OF05088A96.AE0DB74D-ON88256A0D.00625588@foundation.com>  K I have a colleague who's on several alert lists for this kind of thing, and E there's a consistant claim that the machines broken into were runninglE unpatched Windows 4.0. The hacks used had already been identified andaJ patches were available. The hackers were probably looking at the availableD patches and going after those vulnerabilities, looking for unpatched systems.   Shaneu          A JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> on 03/09/2001 10:52:53 PMt   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:u  1 Subject:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?v     "David J. Dachtera" wrote:D > On the radio on the way to work today, I heard that some couple ofI > million credit card numbers have been purloined by hackers exploiting ai3 > well known and long-standing security hole in NT.   H Now that NT is standard and that corporations have invested so much timeE setting up real applications on NT and thus dependant and unlikely tow change,iI Microsoft will do what it takes to convince them to upgrade to the latestw	 releases.s  G I would not be surprised if that latest hacker news about stolen credito cards K might have been unofficially started by Microsoft. Think about it. The facttG that the media focus on "older version of Microsoft's operating system"gI provides strong incentive to update to the current version and hence givel MS more money.   I If the media simply said "Hackers got into Microsoft enterprise opreating K system and stole credit cards", it would be true egg on the face of MS. But- byE saying "those who are running old versions of the MS operating systemu shouldG upgrade otherwise they are candidates to be hacked", it doesn't make MSs lookK so bad because the fla is because people are runnng old versions of the OS.h   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 13:44:56 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)n0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <35CXt+wy+VwI@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  ] In article <3AACDAA5.84BCFBCE@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:g* > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based 1 > machines would be widely used for as commercialt > servers, which they arn't.  L Didn't Sun buy Cray, or at least the rights to the UE10K cache error box. ItD *IS* a Cray design. Which is probably why it's such a bad commercial	 server...d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:16:12 -0500b- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>r7 Subject: Re: A Compaq Qwestion a VMSer Would Never Ask. 4 Message-ID: <jo8r6.154285$Z2.1930490@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  - "Paul Sture" <paul@sture.ch> wrote in messageV% news:VA.000002f6.1d9bbafb@sture.ch...D >...E > But someone else came in with the correct answer of CTRL - IIRC theA oneBA > recommended in the VT220 manual to wake up the screen _without_s sendingoE > a character to the OS. Shift would do equally well in this respect..  F A long time ago (1984 or so) I had a co-worker who always hit <RETURN>@ to wake up his VT terminal. We kept trying to get him to use theF <SIFT> key instead since the <RETURN> was actually sent to the VAX. To cure him we started typing  =     INQUIRE ANS "Do you really want to DELETE/NOLOG/NOCONFIRMn [...]*.*;*"h  C on his terminal every time he was going to be away for more than 20V minutes.   It worked :)   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:56:50 GMTp4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news8 Message-ID: <Sq_q6.18$jF3.13703@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "Keith Brown" <kbrown780@isd.net> wrote in message  news:3AAC4396.4E0B4A3@isd.net...J > I don't know if anyone caught the ABC evening news in the U.S. on SundayE > night but Compaq Alpha Servers got some good air time.  The generaloG > slant of the news story was that the computer business is in the tanklE > but, the only companies making any money are the ones who build the J > "pick and ax type computers"  (that would be the ones that do real work)E > and then they cut to a shot of a computer room full of Compaq Alpha 4 > Servers (some had the "digital" name plate still). >   I I don't watch much TV (FOX NEWS from time to time) but I happened to have K the glass teat turned on Sunday evening and saw those Top Gun Blue servers.hL Looked like TurboLasers and a couple o' racks of StorageWorks. Suffice it toH say that you could see the ALPHASERVER nameplate (and "Digital" as well)L longer than you could see it in the Celera Genomics "Inspiration Technology" commercials.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:19:05 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news- Message-ID: <873dcje1d2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  4 > "Keith Brown" <kbrown780@isd.net> wrote in message" > news:3AAC4396.4E0B4A3@isd.net...  E > > I don't know if anyone caught the ABC evening news in the U.S. oncF > > Sunday night but Compaq Alpha Servers got some good air time.  The > > general    ...   K > I don't watch much TV (FOX NEWS from time to time) but I happened to haveiM > the glass teat turned on Sunday evening and saw those Top Gun Blue servers.cN > Looked like TurboLasers and a couple o' racks of StorageWorks. Suffice it toJ > say that you could see the ALPHASERVER nameplate (and "Digital" as well)N > longer than you could see it in the Celera Genomics "Inspiration Technology" > commercials.  ; Am I the only one who remembers YEARS of TV news of <latestrE breakthrough> and the white eyes in the background? DECtapes may havewD been short on the MB, but they sure won on memorability. Bit hard to do in this age of bland boxes.  C The local ABC and Electoral office have, it seems stopped using VMSsB and VT during poll counts. No more VT[2345]20 terminals looking atF you. Yet another PC. Oh and in tradition manner, the number are wrong!   -- d< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:15:32 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news< Message-ID: <oK5r6.3116$G76.4856599@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messageD' news:873dcje1d2.fsf@prep.synonet.com...a8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >e6 > > "Keith Brown" <kbrown780@isd.net> wrote in message$ > > news:3AAC4396.4E0B4A3@isd.net... >rG > > > I don't know if anyone caught the ABC evening news in the U.S. on H > > > Sunday night but Compaq Alpha Servers got some good air time.  The
 > > > generall >  > ...l >oH > > I don't watch much TV (FOX NEWS from time to time) but I happened to haveF > > the glass teat turned on Sunday evening and saw those Top Gun Blue servers.J > > Looked like TurboLasers and a couple o' racks of StorageWorks. Suffice it toeL > > say that you could see the ALPHASERVER nameplate (and "Digital" as well)D > > longer than you could see it in the Celera Genomics "Inspiration Technology"  > > commercials. >o= > Am I the only one who remembers YEARS of TV news of <latestsG > breakthrough> and the white eyes in the background? DECtapes may havelF > been short on the MB, but they sure won on memorability. Bit hard to  > do in this age of bland boxes. > E > The local ABC and Electoral office have, it seems stopped using VMSeD > and VT during poll counts. No more VT[2345]20 terminals looking atH > you. Yet another PC. Oh and in tradition manner, the number are wrong! >   L You don't need a peecee to derive incorrect numbers from a poll. Here in theK States we manage quite nicely with punched cards... and voters too clueless7K to punch the chad outta the appropriate hole (an error which can be checkedsK real easily when you withdraw the punched card from the holder in which thea punching is done).  J Methinks leveraging the national network of ATMs might be a Better Answer.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:14:19 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> & Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening newsH Message-ID: <y4pufnc6ck.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  L > Methinks leveraging the national network of ATMs might be a Better Answer.  - No, that is _definitely_ a VERY WRONG answer.   E See "Inside Risks" or Rebecca Mercouri's dissertation for the reason.p  # Paper and pencil is still the best.l   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 09:52:38 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u3 Subject: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug?d3 Message-ID: <JUlWQBezl5L6@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  &    OpenVMS Alpha 7.2-1, DEC 3000 M600S    MOZILLA M0.8               BNU V2.1              t    CXML V3.59-1          r    DECNET_OSI V7.2-1     l    DWMOTIF V1.2-5        i    FORRTL V7.3-1         p    FORTRAN V7.3-1             HYPERHELP V5.1-2           JAVA V1.1-85          o    JAVA122 V1.2-21       o    JAVAAPIDOC122 V1.2-21 a    MACRO64 V1.2          $    NS_NAV_EXPORT V3.0-3  6    ODL V2.1                   OPENVMS V7.2-1        S    BLISS Alpha 18-028s    Compaq C V6.2-008    Multinet 4.3A
    CMS 4.0
    MMS V3.3-4-
    DIA 029    Debug64 V7.2-00RM    0                          l	    ECO's:<       VMS721_ACRTL-V0200       VMS721_PCSI-V0100        VMS721_RTPAD-V0100       VMS721_UPDATE-V0100p       VMS721-MIME-V0100@       VMS721_PTHREAD-V0100       CMS721_SYS-V0100  ; Recently I'm getting on all my backups (all disks, not justo SYS$SYSDEVICE):w  I %BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX, error processing index file on SYS$SYSDEVICE:, RVN 1y< -SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual =    address=0000000000000000, PC=0000000000000000, PS=00000000w  2 BACKUP is run under the SYSTEM account as follows:  @    backup/noalias/record/verify/ignore=(interlock,label)/image -7                  /label=(09MAR0,09MAR1,09MAR2,09MAR3) -n4                    SYS$SYSDEVICE: mkb100:BASYS.bck -H                 /block_size=16384/nocrc/norewind/media_format=compaction  F I can't find this ACCVIO on Notes (EISNER) or Deja news (Google).  TheF latest ECOs for BACKUP on ftp.support.compaq.com don't seem to address this.   D I'm going to verify that no privileges get turned off, and I may tryA backing out the latest couple software updates as it seems to be << coincident with them (VMS721_RTPAD-V0100 and MOZILLA_M0008).   Known bug?  Fix?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingi   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:11:00 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>c7 Subject: Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug?tH Message-ID: <y4snkjc6i3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  F Have you done an ANALYSE/DISK on the disk? Maybe the error in the diskH structure leads to false error reporting - you wouldn't expect an ACCVIOK with all zeroes for arguments to follow a problem report on disk strcuture,n
 would you?   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 13:12:31 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-7 Subject: Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug? 3 Message-ID: <QlaJ7jQmUp7U@eisner.encompasserve.org>-   In article <y4snkjc6i3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:H > Have you done an ANALYSE/DISK on the disk? Maybe the error in the diskJ > structure leads to false error reporting - you wouldn't expect an ACCVIOM > with all zeroes for arguments to follow a problem report on disk strcuture,S > would you?  8 All I get is the usual ANALDISK-I-OPENQUOTA and a couple6 ANALDISK-W-DELHEADER's.  One of the disks just reportsE ANALDISK-W-INCQUOTA (used to have quotas enabled on it).  System disktE is, of course, ODS-2, the others are ODS-5 (bckups are failing on allr the disks).'  E In my experience all those zeros in an ACCVIO often comes from havinga done a RET on a corrupt stack.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationt= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingd   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:38:49 +0000u0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>- Subject: Re: CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 200w* Message-ID: <3AACD169.8BC774CD@uk.sun.com>   Keith Brown wrote: >  > Paul Sture wrote:u > > P > > In article <nNvq6.9711$5f.2725235@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Terry C. Shannon
 > > wrote:: > > > From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> > > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsh/ > > > Subject: CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 200o) > > > Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:04:35 GMT  > > > > > > > So I went and took another look at the CNET OS Survey at > > >vR > > > http://enterprise.cnet.com/enterprise/0-9566-601-1751615.html?tag=st.it.9566 > > > -701-1751615.dirruo.uo > > >m > > >bP > > > there are now 199 responses for OpenVMS, which is far and away the highestQ > > > feedback level attained by any OS covered in the CNET user opinion surveys.> > > >iP > > 204 votes as at 8:30 GMT Sunday (of which only 2 negative ones came from theO > > same guy - IIRC he initially posted the same message 4 times). 124 comments  > > posted.c > >d > > ___h > > Paul Sture > > SwitzerlandW >  > By chance was it Andrew?  ;-)c    7 No, I read some of the OpenVMS responses with amusementa7 tinged with sadness since many were the same old tired o7 advocacy that gets rolled out here. But before posting l8 my response I noted that it was intended to be a survey 9 and not an advocacy forum at which point it seemed better ( to not to decend to the advocates level.  6 Incedentally anyone who scores OpenVMS highly because / it supports X11 and CDE needs to get out more. h   Regardse Andrew Harrisonf Enterprise IT Architectk   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:29:46 -0800w! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comA- Subject: Re: CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 200aD Message-ID: <OF60C73601.046F120B-ON88256A0D.00657478@foundation.com>  J If Compaq VMS Marketing weren't an oxymoron, they could make something out of that. Sigh.   ShaneI          H "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> on 03/10/2001 12:04:35 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn cc:a  * Subject:  CNET OVMS Review: Closing in 200    8 So I went and took another look at the CNET OS Survey at  L http://enterprise.cnet.com/enterprise/0-9566-601-1751615.html?tag=st.it.9566   -701-1751615.dirruo.uo    J there are now 199 responses for OpenVMS, which is far and away the highestK feedback level attained by any OS covered in the CNET user opinion surveys.    -- Terry C. Shannon Consultant and Publisher Shannon Knows Compaq  email: terryshannon@mediaone.net$ Web (info on SKC):  www.acersoft.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:53:07 GMTn5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> > Subject: Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How?/ Message-ID: <3AAC9C82.2A2F5157@childrenshc.org>t   Jesper Naur wrote: > K > You will need a cross-over (aka null-modem) cable for the connection, seer
 > for examplei > 4 > http://www.shadownet.com/hwb/ca_Nullmodem9to9.html >  > for more information.y > N > You don't mention the VMS version on your older system, but I assume you canM > find out the VMS device name of the port you wish to use, some machines usevA > TTxx, others use OPxx. On not too old VMS versions, you can say  >  >     $ set host/dte <ddxx>. > N > to make your older system act as a terminal emulator on the newer system. If3 > this is not available, KERMIT might be an option.. >  >     Best regards >     Jesper Naur     " This was precisely what I needed.   G The first au, belongs to my employer. It is a complete system with diskn. drives, monitor, tape drive, etc. (VMS v7.2-1)  D The second machine is one I just purchased. As of this moment it hasH only a CD-ROM. Disk-drives, and monitor are in the near future. (Waiting for tax return.)  G But I want to at least boot the second machine from 7.2-1 CD-ROM and donE a "show system" and "clue config" etc. Just so I know the hardware isc good.        -- v Lyndon F. Bartelsh VMS Systems Administratora Childrens Hospitals and Clinicsa lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)o 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:45:42 +0100i. From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>> Subject: Re: Connecting two 500au via serial connections. How?+ Message-ID: <98iu6f$27$1@news.inet.tele.dk>n  4 Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message& news:3AABBDFF.DE1AF0D9@infopuls.com...K > Is there a switch to use with SET HOST/ /DTE or a characteristic that can K be set with SET >TERMIAL /PERMAMENT TTA0: that I can use my VMS box withouti= having the router to re-configure to softare >flow control ino
 > advance?  B You could try SET TERMINAL/PERMANENT/MODEM TTA0:, but don't be tooH disappointed if modem signals/hardware flowcontrol is unsupported on the TTA0:, it sometimes isn't.       Best regards     Jesper Naure   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:00:33 GMT% From: afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.coms7 Subject: Re: Dates (was Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing)h* Message-ID: <98ivbh$mls$1@news.netmar.com>  G Quoted from a newsreader that actually has the article, but posted froms/ another from which I can actually post a reply!-   > Message 23 in thread :7 > From: David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@earthlink.net)o: > Subject: Re: Dates (was Re: OpenVMS and Supercomputing)  > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms@  > Date: 2001-03-09 19:47:12 PST   c( > afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.com wrote: > > > > [snip]B > > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in* > > > > <3A971A4A.83B74895@earthlink.net>: > > > > >[snip]e > > > > >P.M. = Post Meridiamn	 > > > > >C< > > > > >Phase I English Translation: "after (the) meridian"L > > > > >Phase II English Translation: "after the sun crosses the meridian".	 > > > > >-I > > > > >The key word there is "sun". If it's *AFTER* the sun crosses thePK > > > > >meridian (or perhaps more correctly, while the sun is crossing therK > > > > >(nearest) meridian (to the East of your position, unless you're atP thetH > > > > >meridan)), then 12:00 (12:00 P.M.) can only be during the light hours.	 > > > > >o > > > > >A.M. = Ante Meridiamr	 > > > > >o= > > > > >Phase I English Translation: "before (the) meridian"wM > > > > >Phase II English Translation: "before the sun crosses the meridian".  > > J > > All right, enough archaic stuff already. This ante/post meridiem stuff waswI > > invented hundreds of years ago. It's time to move on!!! It's the 21stu< > > century! Maybe we should go back to Hollerith cards! ;-) > J > Well, yes, it was invented hundreds of years ago. "Science" was inventedI > thousands of years ago. I don't see anyone abandoning the sciences justh  > because they're "archiac". :-)  I It depends on what you call "science". "Modern science" started somewhereoD around the 1600's. Before and after Isaac Newton is an extremely bigI difference. I'll take your smiley above to mean that your point is silly.$  , Hey, maybe you want us to go back to cubits?   >  rL > > Now, despite what it says in www.time.gov's FAQ (they're living in the > past),M > > it is entirely sensible to make the convention that 12PM is noon and 12AMp > isG > > midnight. Moreover, this quite-sensible convention has already been  adoptedcE > > by those who make VCR's, digital clocks (which appear in numerousmM > > appliances), and by the New York City subway schedules (although they dueeK > > specify 12:01AM instead of 12:00AM in Service Change notices -- no harmm > > done.)!a > J > Well, remember too, o modern one, that the 12-hour clock has been around"                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^F So much for your request for not attacking posters. And I was actually, defending your argument! Gee, thanks a lot.   G > for a very long time, also. Back then, the questions of night and daytF > were a little more obvious than in today's global community ("Night?J > Where? and "Day? Where?"). The need for 24-hour time is relatively new -/ > since the dawn of global navigation, I think.e  I What's your point? Magellan circled the earth quite a while ago. Besides,uL we're not talking about night and day. We're also not talking about the needK for time zones. We're talking about how to interpret 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM.B# Try to stick to the subject, okay? s  L And if you're still having problems distinguishing night from day, give me a) call and I'll tell you for a nominal sum.d   > J > The ideas of "midnight" (it's not, except for a brief period either sideI > of either equinox in some places) and "noon" (from the old English wordo  K Your taking the word "midnight" a little too literally. And you're actuallyrM wrong even in the nitpicking sense. The equation of time (as in the analemma,eM that figure-8 that desribes the sun's track if you take a photograph of it atlJ the same time every day) means that midnight actually occurs a few minutesM late or early on the equinoxes (I don't have a chart of the analemma handy tol- look up when it's early and when it's late).    N Actually, this depends on how you define "middle of the night". The argument II just gave would define "middle of the night" as 12 hours after noon wherecG noon is determined from "local time". (You could even nitpick *that* by.M saying that half a day has passed so that "true midnight" has shifted ever soiL slightly, but let's not go there!) Local time is determined by where the sunI actually is. But because of the equation of time, the sun gets as much asmL approx. 15 minutes slow or fast. This is due to both the tilt of the earth'sH axis (23.5 degrees) and the fact that the earth's orbit is very slightlyK elliptical. The tilt causes the sun to move eastward relative to the "fixedaM stars" at an uneven rate. The earth's being in an elliptical orbit means that3M the earth speeds up and slows down slightly which has a smaller effect on the.F sun's motion against the fixed stars. The deviation of local time from2 uniform time is descrbied by the equation of time.  I Obviously, your knowledge of astronomy is not even at the amateur level. .  H > for the ninth hour since daybreak/sunrise - does the sun rise at 03:00F > (a.m.) where you are?) are of little value, really. Noon is a moment  8 You're just proving my point about archaic definitions.   H > (choose a length). Midnight is frequently confused between "the end of8 > (x)day" (24:00) and "the beginning of (y)day" (00:00).  J I believe I said all that. What about A.D. and B.C.? Historians agree thatJ Jesus was born somewhere between maybe 2 and 6 B.C. So the whole A.D./B.C.A system falls apart using literal interpretations. And the literal G interpretation of A.D. depends on your religous beliefs. The "sensible"mM interpretation of A.D. and B.C. is that the current year is A.D. 2001 and you L count backwards from there, with 1 B.C. being the year before A.D. 1, 2 B.C.J being the year before 1 B.C., etc. The sensible interpretation of 12am andG 12pm is 0000 and 1200, respectively. *** This is what everyone is usingnD anyway. *** (I'm just using A.D./B.C. to illustrate the absurdity ofM insisting on overly literal interpretations of things like AM/PM, etc., so it! *is* relevant.)   J > Anyway, this is rather an old thread and most folks have forgotten it or& > have added it to their kill filters.  8 Well, obviously, it didn't make into *your* kill filter!   >  > -- (   Alan E. Feldmanb afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.comw   remove  	 elsewhered    O  -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----lM   http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups I    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other postsiL made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abuse@newsone.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:13:12 +0100y- From: Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>:) Subject: Deassigning system wide logicalso3 Message-ID: <3AACA138.178B70B9@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>d   Hi all,a  F  How can I deassign for a single process a system-wide defined logicalD (i.e. X11)? All other processes on the machine should be unaffected.                 Jouk   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:11:22 GMT% From: afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.comC- Subject: Re: Deassigning system wide logicalsg* Message-ID: <98iouq$9pr$1@news.netmar.com>  @ In article <3AACA138.178B70B9@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>, Jouk Jansen # <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> writes:C >Hi all, > G > How can I deassign for a single process a system-wide defined logicalTE >(i.e. X11)? All other processes on the machine should be unaffected.  >  >              Jouk    Run   % $ DEFINE X11 X11/TRANSLATION=TERMINAL2   from that single process.   N I think this should work for you, but it might depend on just what the purpose& of X11 is. What is the purpose of X11?   Alan E. Feldman  afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.comS   remove	 elsewhere   O  -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----RM   http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groupsTI    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts1L made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abuse@newsone.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:09:19 +0000Y- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>a- Subject: Re: Deassigning system wide logicals0) Message-ID: <3AAD10CF.F12E0251@bbc.co.uk>0   Jouk Jansen wrote:  	 > Hi all,M >cH >  How can I deassign for a single process a system-wide defined logicalF > (i.e. X11)? All other processes on the machine should be unaffected. >   G As long as the process does not explicitly specify a logical name table= for/H translation and uses the default logical name table search list then youB should be able to define/process or define/job for that particular process.  E This won't work though if the logical is an exec mode one and used tor access and installed image.I   >t >               Jouk   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk-  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofS MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:30:18 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com3 Subject: Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-)-H Message-ID: <OF3762C490.DFE8E211-ON80256A0D.004F83E7@qedi.quintiles.com>  K Maybe to get rid of that comment on the sig of one of the contributers herem :C* "Clear the DECs, it's time for action" ???   Someone wrote:H >>>While not wishing to defend Palmer in any way, it's worth noting that theeF *strong* push to replace 'DEC' with 'digital' was initiated under, and fully H supported (perhaps even initiated) by, KO in the early-/mid-'80s.  Never could understand why.<<<   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:14:35 +0000:- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>K3 Subject: Re: December Alphas and December Forms :-),) Message-ID: <3AACF5EB.810B186D@bbc.co.uk>n  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:   > Unbelieveble . . . >a  L Not really, given the understanding of IT demonstrated by the average IT job agent.   >iL > It is why is needed a strong marketing to change from DEC Alphas to Compaq > Alphas ! ! >d  K No, won't help here. Many agents in the UK still refer to VMS jobs as "VAX"o jobs,eM they havn't even cotonned on that there is another architecture that VMS runss on,u( what, 8 years after the launch of alpha.     >W	 > Regardss >O > FC   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk'  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofv MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:02:15 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <87k85ve7p4.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   = Mark Garrett <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> writes:h  E > Since this thread has drifted off topic, I'll keep with that trend.1F > Of all the languages that VMS had available the one I never ever gotF > to see (except in help) was CORAL-66. What is this language and does( > it have any compilers available today?  @ CORAL was developed for telphone exchange swithing stuff. It wasD available for RSX, and I think VMS in the early 80s. The VMS one was non DEC as I remember.   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.1@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:54:14 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>eY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educational   Program)oH Message-ID: <y4hf0zdomh.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:   J > I wrote this because I suspect like some other posters that introducing I > something like UNIX compatibility will reduce the quality of VMS if it W1 > is implemented in the kernel and not as layer. e  G Why should that be a problem? THere is a defined interface with defined D semantics - otherwise, interoperability and portability is a uselessH exercise. Given that, the quality of implementation underneath the hood,6 or veneer defined by the API, is an orthogonal matter.  L BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in relaxation? of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.o   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:50:48 +0000-  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr:H Message-ID: <OF344656EC.B2D3507A-ON80256A0D.004AFBCB@qedi.quintiles.com>  F I'm not sure how adding Unix-like functionality as the DII COE work isK contributes to reducing the quality of OpenVMS.  This is not "we'll replacerI the function x that's in VMS with the function x' out of Unix" but rather.H "we'll still keep the function x in VMS and we will supplement this withG the function x' out of Unix so that the two things can be achieved bothm ways".  J As I understand it, DII COE is a common operating environment in which theJ same application code can be implemented on different platforms.  The UnixE calls work as do the VMS ones.  Which you choose for the stuff you're I writing depends on what you're doing and why.  If you only want it out onmK VMS then you can use the VMS calls.  If you want to be able to roll out the-H software on other operating environments that are DII COE compliant then you'lluse the Unix calls.s  H Consider it another way : Once the DII COE work has been released to theK general user-base there should be little reason why JoeUser shouldn't login:K to VMS and use VMS or login to the same environment and treat it as if it's  Unix.   H The one downside could be that VMS System Managers all get replaced with Unix System Managers......   Steve.  9 Christof Brass (brass at infopuls dot com) wrote/quoted :e >>>"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >c > Someone wrote... >w > > > >eK > > > > The best of both worlds is VMS. Any single element of UNIX put intoo > VMS reduces its quality. >tF > Based on totally irrelevant things like apps availability and market share,F > asserting that VMS is the best of both worlds implies that these two worlds- > collectively represent a very small planet.s >eK > Adding Solaris-like APIs to VMS (DII COE initiative) may help address theeG > apps availability issue. And it darn sure will address the "Compaq ishJ > dropping VMS" codswallop and calumny. Of course, that's just my opinion, IO > could be wrong.   G I wrote this because I suspect like some other posters that introducing I something like UNIX compatibility will reduce the quality of VMS if it is D implemented in the kernel and not as layer. This is my and of others technical concern.I Market share and apps availability is not a technical issue. Will the VMSbF world be happy with malfunctioning UNIX programs like Navigator x.y? IH regard the VMS people as similar to the Mac people. If a program isn't aD genuine VMS programs there is little chance that it will be adopted.I I don't understand this UNIX with VMS initiative at all. If someone wantslH to have UNIX, fine, but stay out of VMS. There are enough UNIXes around,I *nobody* needs another one, e.g. a UNIX/VMS or something like that. MaybeE VMS gets christened VMSIX.<<<    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 10:28:59 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)cY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pro3 Message-ID: <JFYTMhshqJkY@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  k In article <OF344656EC.B2D3507A-ON80256A0D.004AFBCB@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:- >  > H > I'm not sure how adding Unix-like functionality as the DII COE work isM > contributes to reducing the quality of OpenVMS.  This is not "we'll replace$K > the function x that's in VMS with the function x' out of Unix" but rathercJ > "we'll still keep the function x in VMS and we will supplement this withI > the function x' out of Unix so that the two things can be achieved bothn > ways".  G There are no totally unique concepts in Unix, so any Unix compatibilityoJ added to VMS must interface with the existing implementation (e.g., pipes,K memory management, etc.)  Whenever one changes code defects are introduced.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:24:39 -0500p5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr:0 Message-ID: <Pv8r6.34$G_1.2040@news.cpqcorp.net>  2 Not to speak for the US DOD, OpenVMS, or Compaq...  G DII/COE is an attempt to create a magic bullet that allows code re-use. E This would allow code that was written for mission X to be reused foroL mission Y.  This hasn't really happened yet.  None the least of the problemsH is figuring out how those developing the code for mission X will get anyJ benefit (read: profit) by allowing their code to be re-used for some other> mission.  So in current use, you end up with Segments that areH architecture-specific (which you have anyway, since binary compatabilityJ isn't a goal), and which use vendor specific features.  BUT these guys areF serious, and eventually there will be a lot of COE software in the DOD world.  J The unfortunate aspect of DII/COE is that the design center of those doingJ the development was Sun/Solaris (being practical, they also had to includeE Windows - which has it's own features and non-features).  So what COEsG provides is a common look & feel for the application environment, whichtI tends to drill down all the way to the UNIX command line interfaces.  You'J also have some "standards" - like POSIX and JAVA - which if people writing? new segments adhere to, would allow source level compatability.t  J VMS COE (the product) is not something that will be generally available toK *anyone* off the street.  It is a product that includes the OS - as well asn8 the COE environment and other required layered products.  K Long term, the OS capabilities that were required, will show up in the basenH OS.  The intent is to make the C interfaces on VMS compatable with POSIXL (more likely long term - UNIX98 or LINUX).  This will make porting code fromJ UNIX/Linux a simpler task - no different than any generic UNIX->UNIX port.I In addition, there will also be a shell environment that would allow UNIXcK users to get something more familiar than DCL.  Lastly are things like fileoE system modifications that allow UNIX semantics and syntax to be used.t  L This does not "replace" anything that VMS currently does, or even weaken it.K All the capabilities are incremental, or supplemental.  But as always, pooruH UNIX code will work poorly, and good UNIX code will work well.  I expectK that when someone wants the code to "mesh" into a VMS environment, they maysH have work to do beyond a simple port - or they can choose to live with a UNIX fish in a VMS pond.      _Fred  / steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote in message ...  >s >kG >I'm not sure how adding Unix-like functionality as the DII COE work issL >contributes to reducing the quality of OpenVMS.  This is not "we'll replaceJ >the function x that's in VMS with the function x' out of Unix" but ratherI >"we'll still keep the function x in VMS and we will supplement this withrH >the function x' out of Unix so that the two things can be achieved both >ways".  >nK >As I understand it, DII COE is a common operating environment in which thehK >same application code can be implemented on different platforms.  The Unix F >calls work as do the VMS ones.  Which you choose for the stuff you'reJ >writing depends on what you're doing and why.  If you only want it out onL >VMS then you can use the VMS calls.  If you want to be able to roll out theI >software on other operating environments that are DII COE compliant then  >you'lluse the Unix calls. > I >Consider it another way : Once the DII COE work has been released to thedL >general user-base there should be little reason why JoeUser shouldn't loginL >to VMS and use VMS or login to the same environment and treat it as if it's >Unix. >yI >The one downside could be that VMS System Managers all get replaced withe >Unix System Managers......n >s >Steve.f >.: >Christof Brass (brass at infopuls dot com) wrote/quoted : >>>>"Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t >> >> Someone wrote...y >> >> > > >L >> > > > The best of both worlds is VMS. Any single element of UNIX put into >> VMS reduces its quality.n >>G >> Based on totally irrelevant things like apps availability and marketh >share, G >> asserting that VMS is the best of both worlds implies that these twoe >worldsf. >> collectively represent a very small planet. >>L >> Adding Solaris-like APIs to VMS (DII COE initiative) may help address theH >> apps availability issue. And it darn sure will address the "Compaq isK >> dropping VMS" codswallop and calumny. Of course, that's just my opinion,n >I >> could be wrong. > H >I wrote this because I suspect like some other posters that introducingJ >something like UNIX compatibility will reduce the quality of VMS if it isE >implemented in the kernel and not as layer. This is my and of others. >technical concern.nJ >Market share and apps availability is not a technical issue. Will the VMSG >world be happy with malfunctioning UNIX programs like Navigator x.y? IiI >regard the VMS people as similar to the Mac people. If a program isn't abE >genuine VMS programs there is little chance that it will be adopted.2J >I don't understand this UNIX with VMS initiative at all. If someone wantsI >to have UNIX, fine, but stay out of VMS. There are enough UNIXes around,iJ >*nobody* needs another one, e.g. a UNIX/VMS or something like that. Maybe >VMS gets christened VMSIX.<<< >  >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:45:27 -0500e- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com> 8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN2 Message-ID: <3AAC9AB7.103C1A7F@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Christof Brass wrote:  >  > Thank *you*.   You're welcome.*   >  > A specific question about code generation on Alpha depending on the front-end. As you pointed out the language has some influence on the possibility to supply information to the code generation.> With C it is possible to declare a procedure having a variable number of parameters. On some architectures I know of the consequence was to let the caller remove the pushed parameters. This was called the C calling convention whereas with Pascal the number of parameters of a procedure was always fixed, hence known to the compiler and the code for popping the parameters off the stack was located in the callee (the called procedure) which resulted in smaller programs on average.op > Is is possible to tell GEM how to treat the parameter pushing/popping wrt the location where it should happen?Q > Simpler question: where is the parameter popping done in Pascal and where in C?5  G Larry mentioned the [LIST] attribute which is Compaq Pascal's extensiongB to provide variable length argument lists.  Its almost "..." in C.  D In general, during a the execution of a routine, there is no need toF "pop" the parameters.  The first six appear in R16-R21 (well, floatingC passed by immediate will be found in the parallel floating registerhD F16-F21) with the remainder on the stack.  The called routine simplyF accesses the parameters as needed.  However, in some cases, we have toE "home" the arguments.  For example, if you took the address of one of F the arguments and then stepped through the argument list via pointers,> the compiler will make a copy of all the arguments in a single5 contiguous block, but I wouldn't call that "popping".)  G As for adjusting the stack for the passed in parameters...  That is the A job for the calling routine.  The called routine doesn't do that.s  E All of this is specified in the calling standard (see 3.7.5.2 for theo exit sequence).e     -- a John Reagano Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:30:59 +0000t. From: Peter Jackson <peter.jackson@oracle.com> Subject: Re: Janitor fixes 90L* Message-ID: <3AACF9C3.E29157F1@oracle.com>   Jack Patteeuw wrote:  J > First, a friend worked for a company doing support for car dealers.  OneG > local dealer's computer seemed to crash every Friday, between 3 and 5eJ > PM.  Coincidentally he was at that dealership one Friday when the systemF > crashed  ... just after they started the popcorn popper in the otherD > room which would cause the voltage to dip low enough for the power > supply to kick out !  J In my first job, the systems at our main warhouse (PDP-11s and VAX 750s at: that time) used to crash regularly every Sunday lunchtime.  E It was traced to the Heinz soup factory down the road switching their @ heaters back on, causing a temporary power dip (the supply wouldL automatically be increased to compensate for the increased demand, but there was small delay).e  
 Peter Jacksone   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 10:40:25 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen):' Subject: Re: Just Two Days Left to Vote 3 Message-ID: <LkyzqR+qi9J9@eisner.encompasserve.org>q  d In article <3aac1f2b.340311905@news.telocity.com>, StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood) writes:H > On 9 Mar 2001 09:40:24 -0500, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry > Kilgallen) wrote:l > e >>In article <3aa84496.87708706@news.telocity.com>, StevenU@POBoxes.com (Steven P. Underwood) writes:nF >>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:42:08 -0500, Karl S. Erbland <karl@ksme.net>
 >>> wrote: >>> A >>>>In article <8bUp6.1610$G76.2292111@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, e% >>>>terryshannon@mediaone.net says...m >>>>> L >>>>> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message3 >>>>> news:6SKDLGfdYLq7@eisner.encompasserve.org...nI >>>>> > By the way, I also received a paper ballot for this latest survey = >>>>> > (too late, which is why they sent the email version).  >>>>> P >>>>> Well, save the ballot for the next iteration of the survey. The next issueP >>>>> submission cycle begins Real Soon Now, and the results of the first survey; >>>>> cycle are now available on www.compaqworkinggroup.orgt >>>> >>>># >>>>What? The April 2000 responses?V >>>>That's all I could find. >>>>9 >>>>I have to say, that is one really screwed up website.i >>> D >>> It says to view results.  It has been stated previously that the6 >>> Compaq responses will be posted at a later date.   >>>  >>> 5 >>> View RESULTS of the Issue Prioritization Ballots nF >>>   If you voted on a ballot, click here to view its final results.  >>>  -
 >>> here =H >>> http://www.compaqworkinggroup.org/advocacy/Surveys/SurveyRanking.cfm >>>  >>>  >>> Steven P. Underwood,DNRC >>> Whitinsville,MAe >>> StevenU@POBoxes.com@ >>J >>Since it worked for you, why don't you post the results to the newsgroup >>so we can discuss them ? > D > I figure since there is a login/password on the site, that someoneE > would not be happy with that solution.  You state elsewhere in thiseC > thread that you only receive a username/password request.  If youlC > filled in the survey on-line, you needed to register before beingt? > allowed to vote.  You use the same username/password that youlG > registered with.  I do not know what procedure was used for the email 
 > surveys.  4 There was no username/password for the email ballot.  C Certainly registration does not work from secured browsers any more  than anything on their site.  H > If someone in charge of putting this survey together wants to post the. > results, I think that would be a good thing.  C Whereas _they_ think that forcing people to lower their security isc
 a good thing.D   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:07:50 -0600g* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>" Subject: RE: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <0033000018413643000002L032*@MHS>    =0ABill,  9 It's worth an email to the classic computer mailing list.h  * There are folks who truly lust after such.  + see www dot classiccmp dot org for details.e   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe& > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:08 PM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET$ > Subject: RE: Low cost workstations >h >e% > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, JF Mezei wrote:s >  > > Alan Greig wrote:T> > > > Unless these are unmaintained I'm not sure how it can be > economical ton( > > > keep RA8x disks online these days. > > > > > Efficient source of heating for those in cold climates ? ( > this means you only E > > use the RA80s during fall, winter and spring, not in the summer).  > >U: > > RA82 had 1/3hp electric motors, complete with a brake, > multiple fans, and the: > > HDA is quite useful as a boat anchor. The drawers also > offer lots of stoargei) > > space once you're gutted the insides.  >r; > There's worse.  I have an SMD salvaged off a GEAC library  > system that Ia: > can't even give away.  I fear it is shortly destined for > dismantling and  > the dumpster.  >  > bill >p > --> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. > Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:06:38 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> " Subject: RE: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5442@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]  : > In article <jq6hatou6f2fhbiq4474crtri9a0j9470f@4ax.com>,* >  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  H > |> Because DCL is easier to get to grips with and more consistent thanH > |> the wide variety of shells and differing command syntax across Unix > |> implementations.. l  F > All depends on your point of view.  I find DCL incomprehensible and G > yet I can write shell scripts in my sleep.  And there is no differnce:H > in command syntax accross "Unix implementations".  There are different? > shells, but Bourne Shell is Bourne Shell on all Unix systems l > and CshellF > is Cshell on all Unix implementations that hav ethe Cshell (it's notH > free or freely available.)  I seem to remembera time when DEC OSes hadH > more than one possible user interface. RSTS/E comes to mind.  And I am? > pretty sure that even VMS had a way to designate at login if   > you wanted > to use an alternate to DCL.   J Well, as I understand, there's a kit that gives VMS (up to 5.something?) aG full RSX-11 environment, including a real MCR, which is available as anI alternate shell.  I I've checked VMS 7.2, and the /CLI=blah qualifier still works for loggingcF in.  (at the login prompt you can type myname/CLI=MCR for instance, if you've got the real one ;)  C There's also a place in the UAF, I believe, akin to unix's field ini% /etc/passwd that specifies the shell.y  J The only real difference is that there aren't many alternatives on VMS. :/   Regards,   Chrisa  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developern Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e '   .   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:28:18 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87y9ubcmd9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:    > In articleC > <rdeininger-1103011635040001@user-2ivebcf.dialup.mindspring.com>,R6 > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  F > Do you work as legal counsel for Comaq? No offense intended, you mayD > be correct - but it's certainly not clear about that and I haven't) > been able to get an answer from Compaq.s  C > I asked Ann McQuaid, who referred the questions to Susan Azibert.I; > These are supposed to be the Compaq folks responsible forSA > implementing the program. If you have other names please let me ! > know, I'd be happy to try them.t  C Work out what you want to do. Be generous. Write it up in a letter,tE one copy to A McD, one to S Z, one to Compaq corp council, and copiescA to files. Let them know that if it is not correct, to contact younF before class start date and tell you what IS right. Make it clear that> you will be distributing the result. If they don't complain inD 'resonable time' then assume they are happy. Put it solidly in theirC court. Send copy to R M and M C as well. I found pulling KO's chainl ALWAYS got things sorted!z   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.$@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:20:49 -0500w2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1203011120490001@user-2iveb2m.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <87y9ubcmd9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:     > E > Work out what you want to do. Be generous. Write it up in a letter,uG > one copy to A McD, one to S Z, one to Compaq corp council, and copiesoC > to files. Let them know that if it is not correct, to contact youiH > before class start date and tell you what IS right. Make it clear that@ > you will be distributing the result. If they don't complain inF > 'resonable time' then assume they are happy. Put it solidly in theirE > court. Send copy to R M and M C as well. I found pulling KO's chains > ALWAYS got things sorted!    Good ideas.   I Here's something that might be worth the trouble.  At Compaq events where F RM and other VMS honchos show up, ask them as publicly as possible howG many folks are using the educational licences.  If they know (doubtful)oH and if they will give an answer (doubtful), then ask them to explain why the number is so low.e    . When common sense fails, try embarrasing them.   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:36:16 +0000i- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>b" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations) Message-ID: <3AACFB00.6C2B636A@bbc.co.uk>   K Bill Gunshannon wrote: And, the last sentence just sounds like your sellingN yourself short.r  E > I have no doubt that most of the people here could master Unix in aeE > very short time if the took the chip off their shoulder and decidedsF > to treat it like learning any other computer related task.  It's notF > as difficult as some would have you believe, but if you go into with> > the attitude exhibited by many here, what would you expect?? >i  7 OK Bill, just don't expect me to learn vi EVER ok ! :-)   --s6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukw  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofN MedAS or the BBC.n   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:39:23 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j1kb$90v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>h  L In article <rdeininger-1003011121080001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: J |> In article <98belu$j12$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote: |> eL |> > How could a school let a student do what I do??  I have access to everyJ |> > account in the department.  That means I have access to all the profsM |> > tests.  All their personal grading spreadsheets.  All the other studentssL |> > work.  What school could possibly allow a student this kind of access?? |>  ) |> I've seent it happen in several cases.   E Knowing how hard it is to maintain academic integrity (you do realizewG that when questioned about most high schools students openly state thatuG they see no problem with cheating.  They don't miraculously mature whenoE they arrive here.) I can't see allowing student A to have any kind of G access to Student B's files, much less faculty members files and systema level access to the machines.i     |> > |> C |> > |> Are there still open-topic courses for advanced undergrads?l |> > tH |> > Don't have to be advanced.  Every student here has to do a projects |> > course in his senior year.d |> >I |> Ok, I thought seniors were "advanced undergraduates".  My mistake. :-)>  H Sorry, I see seniors as a natural progression.  when you said 'advanced"H I was thinking of something like AP in high schools.  we do have "honorsH programs" too.  I was merely trying to show that these kinds of programsL are not limited to the best, but are required for all students in the course of acquiring a degree.     |>  + |> Well, a budget of $0 isn't reasonable.     J Isn't reasonable to whom??  while I would love to have a budget for buyingJ Alphas, the people who control the pursestrings see no ROI on anything butI commodity PC boxes.  And the same when applied to VMS.  The only reason IpH still have licenses and CSLG for the few remaining machines is that theyI were once in the domain of the Data Center and they have not noticed thataJ they are still paying for them even though I now have them.  Someday, thyeK will and then I will be left with the choice of switching them to some formaN of Unix (if I can find one that supports this hardware) or shutting them down.H VMS receives all the academic budget here that the beancounters think itI warrants.  That just happens to be $0.  This could change, if it could be K shown that the students were actually getting something out of the presencebL of VMS here.  But that is not going to happen with the equipment I have now.  L |>                                        If you could shake loose enough $$I |> for a half-dozen used alphas, you could run a small class.  (One alpha53 |> would do in a pinch.)  Used machines are cheap, c  L Maybe cheap compared to new, but not cheap compared to the competition.  TheM ROI on a PC is precieved immediately, not so the Alpha, which no one has even.	 heard of.w  M |>                                                 and licences would be free  |> for this use.    B In a perfect world, maybe, but not in this one.  There are no freeG educational VMS licenses that are usable in an educational environment.a  > |>                Machines like this are even cheaper than PC.  K I can buy a brand new P3 with a warranty and everything for ~$700.  I can'trL imagine getting a functional Alpha capable of running VMS for that.  And oneM box does not make a lab.  And if the lab is full of PeeCees, why would anyonenK using it bother to log into a remote Alpha when all the tools they need are  right there on the desktop??    eK |>                                                             They're old, L |> and they won't do fancy 3D texture-mapped games, but they are plenty fast |> enough for programming.  H Nobody is going to opt for a character cell user interface while sittingA in front of a Windowed GUI.  Another reason not to use the Alpha.l   |> hK |> Even the haul-it-away discount on old hardware is available, but it doesn |> take up non-trivial time.  I I've always been willing to invest my time, but up til now that has meant H only PDP-11 and Vaxen.  No one has ever offered me a room full of AlphasK for just the time and trouble to collect them.  And it still doesn't answere the licensing question.o   |> iQ |> > |> I think courses like this would be very good for the students, regardlesss |> > |> of the platform.   |> > nQ |> > That's why we have one.  It's also one of the reasons we are one of an elitea) |> > few who have accredited CS programs.o |> u9 |> Good.  I agree with all of this, so I'm snipping it...s  J Good, so then when this same discussion comes around again in 6 months youH too will be able to see how as good an idea as everyone agrees it is, it  never seems to go anywhere.  :-(   bill   -- qJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   .   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:43:41 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)O" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j1sd$90v$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>M  L In article <rdeininger-1003011132080001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:eJ |> In article <98bfu5$jha$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote: |> uH |> > Boy, you wouldn't last around here with that attitude.  ReliabilityH |> > options was one of the easiest battles I ever fought.  That's why I2 |> > have RAID and a DLT tape for regular backups. |> tL |> I find it intolerable.  I _don't_ run the VMS systems this way.  I raisedJ |> hell until the exabytes were replaced with DLTs.  (Still too poor for a  |> significant RAID presence.)    I We had to take a small hit before they sprang for the DLT to replace the 4& exabyte, but it could have been worse.  H |>                             But the PC, Mac, and many linux folk hereC |> just shrug their shoulders.  I guess when you're used to m$ WordcD |> corrupting your docs, having m$ windows blow up a disk is a smallM |> increment.  Even in the rare cases where some lost PeeCee files are backedaL |> up somewhere, folks sometimes refuse to restore them -- too much trouble, |> just do it over.o  J All our files, including most of the PeeCee stuff that people care about, I reside on our Unix servers and so get backed up.  I have Raid controller,6K but sadly, it may force me to move all my file serving to Win2000 as that'ssA where the software support is at this time.  Not a pleasant idea.o   bill   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:49:23 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j273$90v$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>>  + In article <3AAA679A.17514F4@infopuls.com>,h,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |> a  . Only one thing I will bother to comment on....   |> oI |> > |>                                                  This is in partssL |> > |> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much better5 |> > |> sys control language compared to UNIX shells.t |> >  K |> > And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others)rL |> > Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitF |> > that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in theJ |> > datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  IH |> > don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And myJ |> > Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shut |> > off campus wide.e |> aF |> Your site seems to be a special one. VMS is less stable than UNIX.  |> Maybe it's you?  H Sorry, I don't run the data center.  My VMS machines are as stable as myJ Unix systems.  The data center VMS machines are run by people with as muchI VMS experience as I have Unix.  They don't confide in me why they have toeJ reboot periodically.  Or why they have to make the machine unavailable forI 12 hours or more for backups (which is no differnt than being down as youn can't use it.)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   <   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:12:40 +00003! From: Dave P <davep@hmgcc.gov.uk>0W Subject: Re: Mimer (database engine)  for OpenVMS (and others) is available fordownloadh' Message-ID: <3AACCB48.B56@hmgcc.gov.uk>l   Christof Brass wrote:i  > > > > I asked some questions and got fast and precise answers. > >t& > > > The development platform is VMS!C > > > The implementation language is *not* C or a similar language.C  C I had dealings with Mimer a decade or so ago. The database then was B written in AdaFor, an ADA preprocessor feeding a Fortran compiler.  - Nice database, good to see it's still around.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:09:38 +0000 2 From: Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently . Message-ID: <3AACA062.419836E4@CCAgroup.co.uk>   Chris Sharman wrote: >  > Using Alpha VMS 7.1, > - > $ open/read a anyfile.txt       ! works ok.s8 > $ open/read a anotherfile.txt   ! no action, no error. > I > This coding error generates no error, and doesn't open the second file.M > Anyone else seen this ?r  ) Thanks to all for the reassurance & tips.   
 Chris Sharmanr   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:00:19 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently / Message-ID: <TD4r6.17$G_1.504@news.cpqcorp.net>y  / In article <3AACA062.419836E4@CCAgroup.co.uk>,  4 Chris Sharman <Chris.Sharman@CCAgroup.co.uk> writes:  . >> $ open/read a anyfile.txt       ! works ok.9 >> $ open/read a anotherfile.txt   ! no action, no error.c  C My "defense" against this {ahem} FEATURE is to always CLOSE a file 1A before opening in.  Since the CLOSE will usually/hopefully fail,  ! I use the /ERROR qualifier.  e.g.m  &     $ CLOSE /ERROR=OPEN_TEST TEST_FILE     $OPEN_TEST:f     $ OPEN TEST_FILE TEST.FILE  D The problem this often causes me is that if a sequentailly read fileE is already open, the next read starts at the current postition in thetB file, not at the beginning.  Not surprisingly, this often producesC unacceptably different results -- and no small amount of confusion.r  C As another reply pointed out, $STATUS is %X00000001 on the "clean"  @ open and %X00030001 on the "re-open", so one could check $STATUSH after the OPEN and generate an error or take whatever action if desired.   -- sK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:05:25 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>d9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyaH Message-ID: <y4ae6rdo3u.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  H >   Expected, normal, longstanding behaviour.  Further, channels surviveH >   procedure exit, so an OPEN in a subsequent procedure invocation can C >   silently leave you at a rather unexpected position in the file.pI >   Basic defensive DCL programming -- including the typical maintenance aK >   of DCL I/O channels and the recommended pre-emptive use of CLOSE/NOLOG ,$ >   -- is discussed in the DCL book.  L It still remains a design defect - it is a basic violation of modularity andJ seperation of responsibilities. Not that that would help. An informationalJ message "opening an already open file - command ignored" or somesuch would still be a possibility.g   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:40:12 +0100e  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyo+ Message-ID: <VA.00000311.2a7d5064@sture.ch>n  M In article <y4ae6rdo3u.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan y Vorbrueggen wrote:I > From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms ; > Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyi" > Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:05:25 +0100 > 6 > hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > J > >   Expected, normal, longstanding behaviour.  Further, channels surviveJ > >   procedure exit, so an OPEN in a subsequent procedure invocation can E > >   silently leave you at a rather unexpected position in the file.lK > >   Basic defensive DCL programming -- including the typical maintenance aM > >   of DCL I/O channels and the recommended pre-emptive use of CLOSE/NOLOG g& > >   -- is discussed in the DCL book. > N > It still remains a design defect - it is a basic violation of modularity andL > seperation of responsibilities. Not that that would help. An informationalL > message "opening an already open file - command ignored" or somesuch would > still be a possibility.  > M I like that solution. It won't break existing behaviour, but would help with a
 debugging.   ___e
 Paul Sture Switzerlandh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:21:14 +00000  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramH Message-ID: <OF77EF6BCB.3B2AC75D-ON80256A0D.004DE5B9@qedi.quintiles.com>  I Not sure if this is all strictly true and/or valid.  You might be able toaH rely on the standard in AIX or OS400 or MS-DOS or even in the CLI windowD within W95.  This is not necessarily because there is a standard butG because the team that wrote them controlled what they wrote - i.e. theyh1 wrote their own standard because they control it.   B If I want to set up my VMS systems with an alternate CLI (which isG possible) then the idea of the standard goes out of the window from ther> users' point of view.  It may be standard on my system though.  I I suppose the key to this is to ask what a standard is.  One can refer to F de-facto standards, BS and ISO standards, industry standards etc. etc.G etc..  Heck, there's even Industry Standard Servers (although how theses. serve out industry standards I'm not sure :-))  J As for providing two versions of the install script for Oracle on Unix all I can ask is :( Whose Unix?  HP?  IBM? Compaq? Sun? etc.   Steve.  1 Christof Brass (brass at infopuls dot com) wrote:,J >>>The important difference is that with VMS you can rely on the standard.E With UNIX you aren't sure about the shell you will have to use and if0I *your* aliases can be set up automatically (what if you have to type them K in every time you login because you don't have the right to change anythingrG permament of youer account on a certain machine at a customer's site?).tB Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at least two@ different sets of scripts for two shells. Major step forward!<<<   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:59:39 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramH Message-ID: <y4elw3dodg.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  9 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:a  G > So, if RMS is one of the many elements of VMS that UN*X systems lack,.H > shouldn't the ability to easily side-step it be an enhancement to VMS?  I In an application where you do your own I/O, just use RMS to do file nameeI parsing, and do the I/O with QIO or FAST_IO - it's as easy to use as $PUT , et al. if you do not need on-disk structure.  K There is no reason - apart from interoperability with other VMS utilities -sN that the C/C++ runtime library could not go the same way. It could also chooseK to support at least some file formats (e.g., the stream formats) itself, in K particular with respect to buffering, fseek etc., and cut out an additionalcN layer within RMS. That is a quality of implementation decision by the compiler team(s).  L The other thing is that the signed 16 bit fields used in the traditional VMSN file formats have been a nuisance for very long. IMO, they should be very highO on the list for enhancement with additional, 32- and 64-bit field file formats. L It is ridiculous that Fortran on VMS has to use its own make-shift in-record3 format to overcome these limitations, for instance.s   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:05:38 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <87bsr7e1zh.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  * Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:  ' > On 11 Mar 2001, Paul Repacholi wrote:>  |  rE > > Missed a chance here Bill. The original was a Teletype 37. It had>F > > an even bigger apitite for fingernails than a 33, was a 6 hour gym> > > workout for wrists and fingers in 20 min, and intodued the. > > abomination of LF as the end of line char.   @ > Actually, I didn't figure there was anyone here who rememberedF > anything older than the 33.  My first home printer was a Lorenz LO15E > Baudot teleprinter.  Trust me, when I got the Portacom-110 it was aoD > step up.  I have use ASR's, Kleinshmidts, Lorenz's and Siemens.  IF > know exactly why the typing the commands was kept real short and why* > the output was kept just as frugal.  :-)  D Tell me! I can believe I used to be able to go to sleep on a runningD KSR35, no problem... Now we complain about the noise from a 5" fan!!   -- C< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:12:52 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program- Message-ID: <877l1ve1nf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>m  9 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:a  F > Well, technically, there isn't one. There's the fact that WhineBloze@ > users now have an increasingly widespread habit of using "file? > names" like "IT Budget 2001.xls" and "20% (Jun/Dec & Jan/Apr)oB > Standard.dbf".  This is what we must live with; hence, ODS-5 and > later (as I understand it).u  F Yes, another gateshit embrace and exterminate move. The only answer isF to go a search and destroy for all of them every night. Set a standardC and if people don't follow it, that's their time and problem. Dito,e@ set your mailer to delete/bounce turd files, html mail etc. Just refuse to play gatesgoround.  2 Gratuous example I saw today for a file name:\*(n) everything from the colon!   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:32:45 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>p( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5445@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]  @ > The important difference is that with VMS you can rely on the ? > standard. With UNIX you aren't sure about the shell you will y@ > have to use and if *your* aliases can be set up automatically 9 > (what if you have to type them in every time you login  @ > because you don't have the right to change anything permament ? > of youer account on a certain machine at a customer's site?).d  J Your message was perfectly reasonable up until this point.  I have to ask,K though -- what if you don't have the right to change anything permanent?  InH would say at that point the system in question is grossly misconfigured.  ; > Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at l< > least two different sets of scripts for two shells. Major  > step forward!e  J Generally you can, on Unix, depend on the bourne shell.  The problem comesI when people want to do things in their shell scripts that bourne won't do H (or are just too stuck on something else to use bourne).  If you want toL complain about the limited capability of the bourne language, that's another1 thing, and you won't hear an argument from me. :)s   Regards,   Chrise  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developern Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");( 'm   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:06:03 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <98j36b$9r9$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>-  , In article <3AAAAA8D.A60900B3@infopuls.com>,,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:L |> >  > |> > Ummm.  Nothing is mandatory in Unix.  If a user finds theB |> > short names (which really do have a reason and a logic behind? |> > them.  Well, most of them anyway.) offensive he is free to>A |> > change any of them.  Aliases are simple to set up.  And evenrC |> > complete shells are easy to make.  I have seen Shells providede@ |> > by various Unix vendors that imitated the MSDOS COMMAND.COM@ |> > interface and Tandy did one for their version of Xenix thatA |> > mimiced TRSDOS-II.   I personally wrote a Shell that mimiceds@ |> > The UCSD Pascal menu interface.  One of Unix's strengths is |> > infinite adaptability.f |>  K |> The important difference is that with VMS you can rely on the standard. r  G What standard??  Most people I know don't consider a proprietary way of L doing something as a standard.  There is always only one way to do womething when there is no competition.u  B |> With UNIX you aren't sure about the shell you will have to use   H Shell is a user selectable option.  It's what the "chsh" command is for.I All Unix machines I have ever seen offer at least 2 to choose from.  SomesJ offer many more.  I would expect that most Unix sys admins would, like me,H consider adding other shells if their users wanted them. (within reason, of course.)e  P |>                                                                and if *your* O |> aliases can be set up automatically (what if you have to type them in every iP |> time you login because you don't have the right to change anything permament @ |> of youer account on a certain machine at a customer's site?).  N The designation of aliases is done in your .login file in your home directory.J If you are not even allowed to manipulate something as basic as this, yourM account is virtually useless anyway.  Either the sys admin is an idiot or you.L need to pick your customers from a more realistic list.  Can you imagine not; having the necessary permissions to modify your LOGIN.COM??f  O |> Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at least two differentI6 |> sets of scripts for two shells. Major step forward!  F Actually, I would guess that what they provide are two scripts for twoE different families of shells, which means they actually cover all but ) maybe the most obscure of private shells.s   |> >H |> Congratulations BTW for beeing acquainted with the UCSD Pascal systemE |> which was by far one of the best development systems at that time.   H I worked with it a lot back in the early 80's.  It's why I laugh at Java' so much.  Old technology warmed over...n   |> > rB |> > I openly admit that I am a novice VMS Admin.  Been at it lessA |> > than a year.  But the point is most of the people here don't @ |> > know Unix any better than I know VMS.  And that makes their@ |> > observations about as meaningful (or meaningless, depending! |> > on your point of view) mine.? |> oE |> I'm not sure if this is true. I do UNIX administration since 1996.   D And you still didn't know that the user could change his own shell?? (see above)i   |>  ; |> > The Unix haters here are so blinded by their religion o< |> > that they are missing the whole point and have led this9 |> > to deteriorate into little more than ahouting match.t |>  G |> The flaws of UNIX are no invention of VMS people/advocates. They are + |> *inherent*, they are 'architectured' in.   = The "flaws" as you call them are only flaws to you.  They aref@ design decisions to unix people.  Unix files are just streams of; bytes because that is the way Unix wants them.  Not a flaw.-@ Different is not flawed, just different.  You may not understand< the rationale behind the differences, you may not like them,' but that still doesn't make them flaws.o     bill   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   C   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:24:08 +0000r- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>FY Subject: Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$Products <VB-) Message-ID: <3AAD0638.968FDA9B@bbc.co.uk>1   Paul Repacholi wrote:i  ; > hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:i > H > > Can it be argued (after reading the article) that it was not the useB > > of WinNT, but rather the *mis*use (not applying patches to fixB > > several-years-known vunerabilities) of the OS that led to this > > current tragi-comedy?r >.G > Oh please. I regard anyone who uses a less that C2 system is culpable H > of gross negligence at least. Not adding the bandaids just adds to it. >s  D yeah, I mean if "old" NT is so crap to start with why should the new	 system be: any better.r    --m6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukA  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofr MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:06:34 -0800i! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com Y Subject: Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$Products <VBiD Message-ID: <OFED7DDEBA.9B57F0F7-ON88256A0D.00633800@foundation.com>  H ANY system can be administered badly enough to compromise it completely.J How about setting up an account called "guest", password "guest", with allC privs, then opening up telnet from the internet? That should do it.c  D I suspect what we have here is a pointy-haired decision to leave theI configs alone because the machines were working. After all, they have PCs ; at home, so they are experts, right? I've seen this happen.0   Shanen          K hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) on 03/10/2001 07:59:19 AM    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como cc:e  J Subject:  Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$       Products <VBG>    F In article <P1sq6.1988$G76.3437846@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > 8 > "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message# > news:98de54$j9b$1@joe.rice.edu...6 <snip> >>6 >>   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/8/17456.html >uI > Quintessential bullies, those Russian Mafiosi... why don't they pick on ) > something their own size, like OpenVMS.n >mF > The article (and the official source from which it came) provide yet another D > proof point that OpenVMS is a Better Answer than Windoze aNyThing. >e > G Can it be argued (after reading the article) that it was not the use of  WinNT,H but rather the *mis*use (not applying patches to fix several-years-known@ vunerabilities) of the OS that led to this current tragi-comedy?  I Were these systems administered by MCSEs?  Is the quality of MCSE courses  soG poor that security becomes an afterthought, rather than a basic?  Is itaD possible to mis-administer a VMS system in such a way that a similar incident could occur on that system?l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:52:04 +0000d0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...1* Message-ID: <3AACB864.818DDA1A@uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote: > 5 > On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:51:32 +0000, andrew harrison-# > <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:  >  > >Robert Deininger wrote: > >>8 > >> In article <fFf7s8BMyWdO@eisner.encompasserve.org>,? > >> Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:u > >>F > >> > >   Versions Not Affected:   TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS > >> >B > >> > >       TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable > >> >C > >> > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerableo > >> >C > >> > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  > >> >C > >> > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerable  > >> >C > >> > >        TCP/IP Services for Compaq OpenVMS - Not Vulnerablen > >>K > >> Amusing.  I read Andrew's little ditty shortly before I got that emailn > >> from Compaq.  > >>K > >> Maybe the sky really is falling.  But if Andrew tells me so, I'll feeld" > >> safe for the rest of the day. > >> > >a< > >I think the joke is on you since this wasn't the advisory > >I was refering to.l > >e< > >This being the case feel free to assume that the sky will > >fall in on you soon.p > @ > Good ol' Andrew.  Always long on anecdotes and short on facts.C > He especially wouldn't offer enough information to actually allown0 > anyone to debunk him without some weasel room. >   9 Good old Jlsue always willing to blow the other foot off.u  # The advisory I was refering to was    . http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-1998-01.html* 	The advice is to stick your OpenVMS/Tru64. 	box behind a Firewall and inside the firewall 	I quote 	y5 	"then policy should address "malicious acts"and the h  	individuals responsible." !!!!!  ( 	And people accuse Mitnick of hacking by) 	social engineering, now we get security r( 	through social engineering from Compaq.  i/ Other advisories worth a visit for zero OpenVMSw information.  . http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2000-21.html( 	Response for Tru64 but none for OpenVMS+ 	but OpenVMS is almost certainly vunerable.   . http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2000-13.html 	Still under evaluation.   Or how about. http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-1996-21.html& 	Syn flood attacks are one of the most& 	common denial of service attacks, so & 	where is the Digital/Compaq response.   Or how about. http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-1997-28.html& 	Teardrop and Land, Tru64 is listed as$ 	not being vunerable and there is no- 	response for OpenVMS/UCX which was vunerable  	. 	From ask the Wizard  > "This was remedied in TCP/IP Services UCX V4.1 and UCX V4.2 on 10-Apr-1998,G and systems with a UCX$BGDRIVER.EXE image dated on or after 10-Apr-1998hC should be sufficient.  The OpenVMS Wizard does not believe that thet TCP/IP Services V5.0 was effected."  3 	Note that the fix is 4 months after the origional e 	advisory was released  D > Get it Andy.  Look at the vague information you gave.  It's bogus.@ > Mr. Kilgallen did all he could to offer information about whatF > appeared to be your issue.  However, in your slippery way, you avoid2 > any such discourse by using more vague language. >   3 Your comments just go to illustrated the danger of r6 jumping into a discussion you either havn't researched4 properly or where you are simply out of your depth.   9 I leave it to you to decide which category you fall into.    > "I saw one that was black" > "No, it's blue."% > "No, it's black.  See, here it is."h > "That's not the one."  >   % As with all our discussions the joke b
 is on you.   regards? Andrew Harrisont Enterprise IT Architect    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:18:37 GMTA From: sfm1115@bjc.org  Subject: Question on Patches0 Message-ID: <3aacf6d3.13122489@news.starnet.net>   Hi All,o  , I have a quick question on OpenVMS Patches.   E I know with Sun Systems there is a patchdiag tool which tells you thehF current level of your patches and what you need to obtain new patches.  B With Microsoft, you have the WindowsUpdate Site and Service Packs.  $ Novell you get a list on CD Monthly.  E Is there a tool I can run against my Alpha servers to show me where Ih> am at on my servers like the patchdiag or windows update tool?   Thanks   Shawnr   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 11:43:51 -05007 From: hamilton@encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)-  Subject: Re: Question on Patches3 Message-ID: <+X$2v1ij8qw6@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  I >In article <3aacf6d3.13122489@news.starnet.net>, sfm1115@bjc.org writes: 
 >> Hi All, >> -/ >> I have a quick question on OpenVMS Patches. 0 >> mH >> I know with Sun Systems there is a patchdiag tool which tells you theI >> current level of your patches and what you need to obtain new patches.  >> @E >> With Microsoft, you have the WindowsUpdate Site and Service Packs.r >>  ' >> Novell you get a list on CD Monthly.a >> eH >> Is there a tool I can run against my Alpha servers to show me where IA >> am at on my servers like the patchdiag or windows update tool?  >> u	 >> Thanks  >> n >> Shawn  	 Hi Shawn,o  I Do you have a service contract w/ COMPAQ?  If so, check with your supportb7 folks to see if you qualify for a tool called ProPatch.r  % If not, visit the COMPAQ Web Site at:   8 http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtml  , which lists all VMS patches.  Or, TELNET to:   eisner.encompasserve.org  L Subscribe to Encompasserve       please login under -> Username REGISTRATION  E follow the directions, lear how to use the NOTES conferencing system,lC and you will find a CONFERENCE specifically devoted to VMS patches.e  
 Good Luck, Brad   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:34:57 GMT0/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>i1 Subject: Setting the Time Zone for UCX/NFS Mounts ) Message-ID: <3AAC9841.383155CF@uiowa.edu>t  
 Greetings!  A     I have noticed that my UCX v4.2 ECO 4 on OpenVMS/VAX v6.2 box+ reportsmG the time tag for a file on a remote SunOS NFS mounted disk to be behindlC by 18 hours.  I have reasonable confidence that the time tag on the  remote Unix system is correct.  F     Is there something I have missed setting up dealing with timezones or  offsets that anyone can suggest?  ?     At present, this is the only timezone logical I could find:g  1             "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "32400"d  E In the UCX$Config procedure, I setup this node is in a "+9" timezone.n (Japan)i  6     Thanks for any suggestions on what to look into...   Regards, Rick --H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-14799   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 08:50:20 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)o? Subject: Re: SONY DLT SDT-S9000 DAT dip switch settings for VMS-0 Message-ID: <98i2kc$qnk$2@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  N In article <VA.00000309.235a6d64@sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> writes:C >I've recently acquired a SONY SDT-S9000 tape drive. DDS3 and goes c@ >nicely. Reports itself as a SONY SDT-9000 from Alpha VMS 7.2-1. >[E >But a SHOW DEVICE/FULL reports it as density DDS1, even though I've M1 >done my backup with /DENSITY=DDS3/MEDIA=COMPACT.r >tC >The manual has a table suggesting DIP switch settings for various  B >flavours of Unix, from which I chose the one called "Digital WS". > E >The size and number of backups I can fit on tape suggest that it is  H >doing the DDS3 compression, but I don't know if it's being done by the ) >DIP switches or "intelligently" via VMS.  >u >lG >http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/storage/faqs/dat.html gives 1-800 tE >fax numbers for the dip switch settings. But being outside the US I   >cannot reach those numbers :-(. > > >Does anyone have the relevant info or recommendations please?  N We have the same device under VMS 7.1-2. Here it reports "compaction disabled"N although I enabled it via the DIP switches. I couldn't get it to be controlled8 by VMS in this respect, so I went with the DIP-switches.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanno  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:18:39 -0600s+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>nM Subject: RE: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Progra	m)>L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5449@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: koehler@encompasserve.org [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]  < > That may not stand up to well against Solaris, HP-UX, and  > Windows beingf, > able to claim being the reference systems.  D > Why buy product X on the basis that it's certified to be just like > product Y?  I A better question is, why buy anything which allows windows to serve as ayL reference system in the first place?  Does anyone else find that disturbing?   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developern Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i 'V   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 10:32:14 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)sL Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)3 Message-ID: <EndfBbMlb8d2@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  X In article <3AABB710.24B4A28C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>  [ >> In article <3AAACF05.49854345@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:a >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >> mG >> >> If someone were to move to VMS only because of Unix compatibilityoH >> >> and thereafter discover some of the good features of VMS, presence> >> >> of that Unix compatibility would have been a good thing. >> >i>> > Please, please, please: don't mix marketing and technique. I was referring to "The DII COE work if done well should give us the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.". I'm already suspecting that this DII COE will reduce VMS' quality - at least by offering additional ways of doing something the UNIX way and by that making the OS complexer as is could be.l >> eI >> While complexity may be an enemy of quality, change is a bigger enemy.uH >> I believe that absent a _major_ breakthrough in software testing (notG >> likely) that allows "something for nothing", introduction of DII COEtE >> features to VMS will introduce defects ("bugs" for the squeamish).pJ >> But so would introduction of any new major feature, such as the abilityI >> to put stacks in P2 space.  The fact that change introduces defects iseI >> totally unrelated to whether or not the change is due to the influences >> of Unix.C >  > But these changes are induced by the aim to offer something what is technically not needed. This renders the DII COE as a major risk for design and implementation quality.e  C Yes, but while they are not needed technically, they are needed forvA marketing (being able to sell to customers of a certain mindset). B That mindset has been institutionalized in the US DoD, and that is" where the DII COE name comes from.  "> Adding features in the core or augmenting the architecture by architecture foreign concepts will dramatically reduce quality. The outcome might be the opposite of what most people in this NG expect who think positively about this DII COE. This could be in fact the technical death of VMS.  I Or it could be the marketing rebirth.  I read somewhere that the expected I COE certification of VMS is likely to be the first certification of _any_>0 operating system under the newest COE standards.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:16:34 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>aL Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)H Message-ID: <y4n1arc68t.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ; Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:i  E > Yes, but while they are not needed technically, they are needed foroC > marketing (being able to sell to customers of a certain mindset).i  M No, they are needed technically because a lot of software "out there" assumesoJ Unix's interfaces - whatever those are. The DOE initiative will lead to beK conformance to the standard it is setting, and will make it easier for ISVsdL to provide a port of their software for VMS, as well as VMS users to compile< and use a lot of software available for free in source form.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 01:39:11 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>L Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)- Message-ID: <87d7bmdgzk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>u  ; Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:W  K > Or it could be the marketing rebirth.  I read somewhere that the expectednK > COE certification of VMS is likely to be the first certification of _any_.2 > operating system under the newest COE standards.  G I saw DU 4.? and IRIX listed as certed systems. With Irix, you did needaH TWO though, an Origin, and a ???? WS X server... Grrr I Hate brain fade.  A But, there seems to be a whole slew of types and levels in there.y   -- V< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 12:56:52 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oL Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)3 Message-ID: <9YE1RAUJg2pL@eisner.encompasserve.org>8  o In article <EndfBbMlb8d2@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:b > K > Or it could be the marketing rebirth.  I read somewhere that the expected K > COE certification of VMS is likely to be the first certification of _any_ 2 > operating system under the newest COE standards.  G That may not stand up to well against Solaris, HP-UX, and Windows being * able to claim being the reference systems.  B Why buy product X on the basis that it's certified to be just like
 product Y?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationT= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group3E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:21:28 +0000a  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comL Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Program)H Message-ID: <OFBDF60AF4.4025FFE2-ON80256A0D.0064B582@qedi.quintiles.com>  K But my understanding was that no operating systems were being grandfatheredcG in as the reference systems.  All of the approved OSes would have to goO0 through the testing and accreditation processes.   Bob Koehler wrote:J >>>That may not stand up to well against Solaris, HP-UX, and Windows being* able to claim being the reference systems. <<<r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:17:17 +0010m% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  Subject: Re: VMS wanted list.S5 Message-ID: <01K14CDG8HZ600ATT9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>g   Dean Woodward wrote: >Mark Garrett wrote: >> dB >> in article rUslzcAE$7$5@eisner.encompasserve.org, Bob Kaplow at >>H >> > I'd still settle for having Palmer be the next CEO of Microsoft :-( >> 1N >>     What a great idea :) He could manage the split up of Microsoft so well,N >> with his wealth of experience at screwing DEC/Digital. He could maybe break? >> it down to bits small enough for some PeeCee vendor to buy:)o > ? >How would Compaq owning the M$ OS's make our situation better?t  R Well I guess that I would like to hope that 3rd party software would no longer be R written, no more advertising and the Microshaft newsgroups are full of Windows/NT P is dead -- yes it is, no it isn't.  I would guess that's the scenario envisaged ? by Mark.  Hopefully then the PHMs would come back to a real OS.P  Q And since Compaq cannot be so psychopathic that they would kill everything, they e6 might concede that they are the owners of the best OS.   Oh, dreams!S   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development, 
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australia>   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people, ; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:34:02 -0500n, From: Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: VMS wanted list. > Message-ID: <hshubs-B9168E.08340212032001@news.mindspring.com>  J In article <3AAC6121.1C754AE2@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>  wrote:  ? >How would Compaq owning the M$ OS's make our situation better?   N Compaq wouldn't be likely to take action against itself for promoting VMS and  UNIX.n -- w Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 08:52:10 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)h Subject: Re: VMS wanted list.!3 Message-ID: <JV3NBp0o+SAT@eisner.encompasserve.org>a   In article <B6D28125.13130%Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au>, Mark Garrett <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> writes: A > in article rUslzcAE$7$5@eisner.encompasserve.org, Bob Kaplow atsC > kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars wrote on 28/02/2001 13:12:yF >> I'd still settle for having Palmer be the next CEO of Microsoft :-( > M >     What a great idea :) He could manage the split up of Microsoft so well,SM > with his wealth of experience at screwing DEC/Digital. He could maybe breakw> > it down to bits small enough for some PeeCee vendor to buy:)  H Don't forget, before Palmer destroyed DEC, he did the same for a companyF called MOSTEK. Anybody remember them? Anybody seen them around lately?  8 BTW, last I heard, Palmer is at AMD. So much for them...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:00:55 +0100i, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>$ Subject: Re: What drives the mouse ?* Message-ID: <98hvol$vfg$1@buty.wanadoo.nl>  H Well, this certainly is a situation where you would have wanted AMDS (orI Avalilability Manager). Using the Data Analyzer from a still running nodeaJ (doesn't need to be a cluster member) you might have been able to find outI what's (still) going on and possibly even get more things going on again.rJ The datacollection part of AMDS is a driver (SYS$RMDRIVER), not a process.J Drivers usually keep on running even if all processes stall, just like the  mouse driver! Have a look at it!   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn  OpenVMS consultant
 TrueBit BV  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3AABF710.A4E82D33@videotron.ca...I > Yesterday, I froze my workstation with a TELNET/CREATE_SESSION command.nG > Interestingly, the node remained in the cluster, the mouse would move? around,HH > but clicking on any window to make it active would do nothing. Nothing could,G > be typed, and <CTRL-Y> in the current decterm windows (stuck with theP TELNET > command) did nothing.2 >9L > The other node in the cluster didn't complain. So I assume that deep down,H > BIKE was still saying "hello I am here" to keep itself in the cluster.I > However, from VELO, doing SHOW SYS/NODE=BIKE would freeze and had to be  control-Yed. >oJ > (I crashed node VELO by CTRL-Ying of a MON CLU which didn't go anywhere, ando0 > minutes later, BIKE finally actually crashed). >sA > BIKE's reason for the crash: "Node voluntarily exiting existingo VAXcluster".H > (And the process was the one that had executed the TELNET command, and3 > TCPIP$TELNET.EXE was the image for that process).e >g >r > Question:i >nK > What does the fact that the mouse was still moving tell me about what wasa ande > wasn't running on that node ?3 >48 > Under what circumstances would the mouse stop moving ? >>J > ( I seem to be having my share of reboots these days, it had been such a longJ > time since I had such a spate of reboots, once has to relearn so much !)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:23:45 -0600,+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>P2 Subject: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5446@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  
 Hi people,  J I'm planning to ( Real Soon Now :) get my VAXStation 3200 actually pluggedG into the network, and doing stuff.  It's a hobbyist project, of course. J It's up and running well right now, but I need the following to make it do6 something useful, so does anyone know where I can get:  K Those QBus serial widgets (I believe they drive four to eight ports  I have J the -- what do you call it? -- backplate with the ports on it, but not the board)  J A copy of a relatively old version of VMS ( I have 5.5 on there now, but IL don't have the full installation, and I really want TCP so that I can get itI to speak to my various non-VMS machines )  I'd prefer one that offers the-B option of VWS, since I might actually plug the framebuffer back inH eventually.  This could be on TK50, DDS-2, or CD.  I'd be copying it offI onto TK50 really, but I have a DDS-2 drive and a CD drive (and a tk50, of!F course) on my VAXStation 3100 which I could use to transfer the stuff.  J Those 10-base-5 to 10-base-T widgets -- anyone know where I could get themI relatively inexpensively?  I actually could use several at this point.  I + suppose a base-5->base-2 would work, too...e  D Please let me know if you can think of sources for any of the above.   Thanks,    Chriss  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developery Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");c 'r  I   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:36:46 -0700g% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>a6 Subject: Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200A Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010312103557.00adec58@ntbsod.psccos.com>h  / At 10:23 AM 3/12/2001, Christopher Smith wrote:|   >Hi people,s >aK >I'm planning to ( Real Soon Now :) get my VAXStation 3200 actually plugged H >into the network, and doing stuff.  It's a hobbyist project, of course.K >It's up and running well right now, but I need the following to make it do-7 >something useful, so does anyone know where I can get:  >mL >Those QBus serial widgets (I believe they drive four to eight ports  I haveK >the -- what do you call it? -- backplate with the ports on it, but not thei >board)  >nK >A copy of a relatively old version of VMS ( I have 5.5 on there now, but I M >don't have the full installation, and I really want TCP so that I can get itR* >to speak to my various non-VMS machines )  I You can get a hobbyist license for both TCPware and Multinet from Processg' Software, these will support VMS 5.5-2.D     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+oI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |dI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |PI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |mI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+c   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:13:23 GMT., From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day& Message-ID: <3AAC76F5.29C6E271@gmx.ch>  K me too. Its a brand new ES40 and I wonder why the HSZ80 served disks have ag cluster factor of 18?    D.   Dave Weatherall wrote:, > The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues
 > me tho'.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:23:39 +0010-% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aun( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day5 Message-ID: <01K14CLCSUEA00ATT9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Dave,   F >or something of that ilk. The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues 	 >me tho'.1  M Default cluster size on a 9GB disk.  Can be anything on a 7.2 (7.1??) system : using a qualifier.  N My understanding is that default on a 18Gb is 36, though 9s are the biggest I J have at present.  There's a formula lurking somewhere, but I forget where.   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,t
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australia0   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,i; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:37:38 +0010r% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au ( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day5 Message-ID: <01K14D2P4HJM00AUF5@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>h  Q Bad mannered me, but just after I sent I remembered there was a thread 2/3 weeks tR back on the optimal cluster size.  Result inconclusive, saliently depends on your  type/size of files.A   >Dave, >aG >>or something of that ilk. The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues r
 >>me tho'. >-N >Default cluster size on a 9GB disk.  Can be anything on a 7.2 (7.1??) system  >using a qualifier.a >eO >My understanding is that default on a 18Gb is 36, though 9s are the biggest I rK >have at present.  There's a formula lurking somewhere, but I forget where.s   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,r
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australian   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,h; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.i   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 08:42:21 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) ( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <98i25d$qnk$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  T In article <3AAB5763.FA5ACBD@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: >ISLKP1_mgr> sh symb dir; >  DIR*ECTORY == "directory /date /size=all /wid=(file=32)"s >ISLKP1_mgr> sh symb tyW> >%DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spelling
 >ISLKP1_mgr> l >e
 >next try?   $ SHO SYMBOL/GLOBAL ty*s $ SHO SYMBOL ty*   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannn  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:43:05 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)y( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <009F8E48.27A84BE3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VgyTdQIYUMGm@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:> >On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:20:13, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian   >Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote: >aX >> In article <3AAA4F50.6B9397E6@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: >> >ISLKP1_mgr> dir toto.txt >> >) >> >Directory PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]n >> >L >> >TOTO.TXT;1                             1/18      10-MAR-2001 16:54:53.65 >> >! >> >Total of 1 file, 1/18 blocks.  >> >ISLKP1_mgr> ty toto.txtiP >> >%TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]TOTO.TXT; >> >-RMS-E-FNF, file not found >> >ISLKP1_mgr>  >> >M >> >This one is an old one, but for a week-end, it may please some beginners.c >> > >> >D. >yF >I've missed a bit of this thread but I guess the above was preceeded  >by. >@ >$ type /out=toto.txt toto.txt >oF >or something of that ilk. The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues 	 >me tho'.b >w >Cheers - Dave.   % 18?  It's probably just a BIG disk.     K Disk AX200$DKB600:, device type SEAGATE ST19171N, is online, mounted, file-y   :n   : O     Total blocks            17783112    Sectors per track                   168h   :r   :eO     Cluster size                  18    Transaction count                     1n   :d   :      Or...i    M Disk VS3100$DKB100:, device type SEAGATE SX910800N, is online, mounted, file-c   :e   : O     Total blocks            17755614    Sectors per track                   133-   :-   :-O     Cluster size                  17    Transaction count                     1.   :    :c    K When disks get up into the 9+GB range, the cluster allocation sizes can getDL to be rather large and certainly not ideal for lots and lots of little 1 and 2 block files.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             cO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:47:09 GMTd= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)a( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <009F8E48.B98DD514@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ] In article <01K14CLCSUEA00ATT9@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au writes:  >Dave, >0G >>or something of that ilk. The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues  
 >>me tho'. >sN >Default cluster size on a 9GB disk.  Can be anything on a 7.2 (7.1??) system  >using a qualifier.   K It's 7.2.  I need to keep my 9G drives initialized using the old allocationo8 size scheme so that I can mount them on a V7.1-2 system.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            2O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:03:54 -0500t# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>V( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day+ Message-ID: <3AACE55A.88313285@hsc.vcu.edu>s  2 you have the warning mesage IN toto.txt, right????   ;-)a   J.   Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > ISLKP1_mgr> dir toto.txt > ' > Directory PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]t > J > TOTO.TXT;1                             1/18      10-MAR-2001 16:54:53.65 >  > Total of 1 file, 1/18 blocks.- > ISLKP1_mgr> ty toto.txt N > %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for PROG00:[ISLK_USER.ISLK_MGR]TOTO.TXT; > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found
 > ISLKP1_mgr>  > K > This one is an old one, but for a week-end, it may please some beginners.- >  > D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:40:44 -0700c+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com>n( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day( Message-ID: <3AACEDFC.E41F155B@mmaz.com>  8 How about the logical name, a show log/full  on PROG00 ?   Barryw   Didier Morandi wrote:    > ISLKP1_mgr> sh symb dir < >   DIR*ECTORY == "directory /date /size=all /wid=(file=32)" > ISLKP1_mgr> sh symb ty? > %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spellingn
 > ISLKP1_mgr>U >a > next try?i > ;-)) >  > Paul Sture wrote:e > < > > Also show us the output of SHOW SYMBOL on DIR and TY :-)   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOj  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:30:09 GMTr, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day& Message-ID: <3AACF971.D47950B5@gmx.ch>   yes, you win too.    Jim Agnew wrote: > 5 > you have the warning message IN toto.txt, right????t >  > ;-)h >  > J.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:54:10 GMTa, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>2 Subject: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock& Message-ID: <3AAC8082.1D125EB9@gmx.ch>  N I got two messages recorded in a file at the very same time stamp. This causesO me a problem (duplicate key detected). Is there a way to have from within DCL a , better precision that the hundred of second?   ----------------( Error logged on  12-MAR-2001 08:38:16.73: from procedure   DISK$ISLK_PROG:[EXE]ISLK_READ_PARAM.COM;8 produced by line  0d Error message is:hB %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening ISLK$RSC:ISLK_PARAMETER.DAT; as input <RET> for next record: y ----------------( Error logged on  12-MAR-2001 08:38:16.73: from procedure   DISK$ISLK_PROG:[EXE]ISLK_READ_PARAM.COM;8 produced by line  0: Error message is: K -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operationa <RET> for next record: f   D.3 (I should *always* have my Ke/Go under the hand :-)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:02:59 -050002 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>6 Subject: Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock* Message-ID: <3AACE523.CA06E000@oracle.com>  < any application that believes that duplicate time stamps are: impossible has (IMHO) always been broken.  You need to add: some unique value (the PID and a sequential counter of the> process that wrote the message?) to the key.  Other techniques: include incrementing the time by .01 until it is unique in the rare chance of a collision.s   Didier Morandi wrote:- > P > I got two messages recorded in a file at the very same time stamp. This causesQ > me a problem (duplicate key detected). Is there a way to have from within DCL an. > better precision that the hundred of second? >  > ----------------* > Error logged on  12-MAR-2001 08:38:16.73< > from procedure   DISK$ISLK_PROG:[EXE]ISLK_READ_PARAM.COM;8 > produced by line  0r > Error message is:sD > %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening ISLK$RSC:ISLK_PARAMETER.DAT; as input > <RET> for next record: > ----------------* > Error logged on  12-MAR-2001 08:38:16.73< > from procedure   DISK$ISLK_PROG:[EXE]ISLK_READ_PARAM.COM;8 > produced by line  0  > Error message is:wM > -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation  > <RET> for next record: >  > D.5 > (I should *always* have my Ke/Go under the hand :-)c   --  > norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:59:35 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 6 Subject: Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clockH Message-ID: <y4y9ubc714.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  . Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:  J > I got two messages recorded in a file at the very same time stamp. This L > causes me a problem (duplicate key detected). Is there a way to have from ; > within DCL a better precision that the hundred of second?   L Are you using the 64 bit time value? THen do what MAIL does: add one to thatN value until RMS doesn't choke anymore. Remember, there are 10^7 such units per	 second...j   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:31:55 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>6 Subject: Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock& Message-ID: <3AACF9DA.1CCFF818@gmx.ch>  % Jan, tell me how to do that from DCL.S   D.   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > N > Are you using the 64 bit time value? THen do what MAIL does: add one to thatP > value until RMS doesn't choke anymore. Remember, there are 10^7 such units per > second...    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 11:55:18 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 6 Subject: Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock3 Message-ID: <IIJGavkv2D3X@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3AACF9DA.1CCFF818@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:t' > Jan, tell me how to do that from DCL.T >   h http://groups.google.com/groups?q=random+group:comp.os.vms&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=923218280&ic=1     > D. >  > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: >> eO >> Are you using the 64 bit time value? THen do what MAIL does: add one to thattQ >> value until RMS doesn't choke anymore. Remember, there are 10^7 such units perr >> second...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:10:27 +0100a! From: "Luc BEDU" <bedu@promod.fr>h0 Subject: Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone6 Message-ID: <98ihv1$oo0$1@news.entreprises.cegetel.fr>  K     It's not a cluster so i'm in the correct node. The owner process id has J disappeared. How could it wait for an operation on the drive. The drive is online and have no tape.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 16:14:47 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>80 Subject: Re: [Q] tape allocated and process goneH Message-ID: <y47l1vdno8.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  J If the process is really gone, and there are no channels left, you can useN DELTA or a little CHMK routine to reset the UCB's PID and REFCOUNT to 0. WOrstL that can happen is a crash 8-). Implementation is left as an exercise to the reader.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:40:11 +0100c  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>0 Subject: Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone+ Message-ID: <VA.0000030f.2a7d4a21@sture.ch>   F In article <98ihv1$oo0$1@news.entreprises.cegetel.fr>, Luc BEDU wrote:# > From: "Luc BEDU" <bedu@promod.fr>s > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmse2 > Subject: Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone' > Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:10:27 +0100  > M >     It's not a cluster so i'm in the correct node. The owner process id has L > disappeared. How could it wait for an operation on the drive. The drive is > online and have no tape. > M Tricky. I have got away in the past by defining the tape as a different unit oN on an HSJ controller (if that's what you have), but I'd prefer to recommend a  reboot.  ___.
 Paul Sture Switzerlanda   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:17:52 +0100f> From: "Jean-Francois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr>) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers . Message-ID: <98i0hq$18c$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>  I "Wayne Sewell" <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142> a crit dans le-1 message news: 32o4H5SMD2oK@tachxxsoftxxconsult...a  L > I intercept the messages coming in, and convert them to news articles, and feedG > them into my news server.  That way I can treat mailing lists as justt another  > newsgroup.  % Do you process such mails under vms ?a   Jean-Franois Marchal  X9000 - Lyon (FR)V   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 08:46:14 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)n) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribersn3 Message-ID: <G4NOvQmqT4uL@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  & In article <3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch>,. Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:> > How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the> > info-VAX list? Are we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily= > operations in the world (we could create a club) or most ofh6 > the readers/participants use a news browser instead?  7 Please read the section on info-vax in the OpenVMS FAQ.    Http://www.openvms.compaq.com/   -JohnC wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:02:32 -0500-# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>-) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers + Message-ID: <3AACE508.529DA870@hsc.vcu.edu>i   I'm not subcribed, but it gates to comp.os.vms in the usenet hierarchy... i probably miss some messages, but what i miss won't killm me...    j.   Didier Morandi wrote:  > Q > How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the info-VAX list? Are-M > we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily operations in the world (we could1P > create a club) or most of the readers/participants use a news browser instead? >  > D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:40:11 +0100   From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscriberst+ Message-ID: <VA.00000310.2a7d4b3a@sture.ch>   B In article <32o4H5SMD2oK@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, Wayne Sewell wrote:? > From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell)m > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsg+ > Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribersd  > Date: 11 Mar 2001 13:20:04 CDT > W > In article <3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:oS > > How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the info-VAX list? Are O > > we only 79 persons dealing with VMS daily operations in the world (we could R > > create a club) or most of the readers/participants use a news browser instead? > >  > > D. > M > As far as I am concerned, mailing lists are an abomination when compared totJ > news.   They are fine if you do not have usenet capability, but I cannotI > imagine subscribing to info-vax if you have comp.os.vms available.    I.Q > consider the constantly arriving messages of a mailing list to be as irritatingiO > as spam.  With news, you can read articles when you feel like it.   I am on a-N > couple of mailing lists, primarily because there is no other option for thatQ > particular information, but I don't actually *read* the messages using mail.  IJO > intercept the messages coming in, and convert them to news articles, and feedeO > them into my news server.  That way I can treat mailing lists as just anothero > newsgroup.  Q I'll agree that constantly arriving messages are a pain. I get the digest, which kF normally arrives 2 or 3 times a day. In fact I use that for 2 reasons:  Q 1. My news server at work doesn't support a search function, so once I've read a i0 message on VMS, it's difficult to find it again.  Q 2. When the news server is out of action, I can still read the messages. ReplyingiJ to a message there is a lot more effort than using a newsreader of course.   ___n
 Paul Sture Switzerland,   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.142 ************************