1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 13 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 143       Contents:' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news , Re: Ask the Wizard:  'WIZ' is not an object! bliss install joke :-) Re: bliss install joke :-) Re: bliss install joke :-)$ Re: Deassigning system wide logicalsP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr  Help with VMS alpha installation/ Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long)  KERMIT Question  Re: KERMIT Question  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations ; Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? 4 New OpenVMS install - "LMF license check has failed"8 Re: New OpenVMS install - "LMF license check has failed"0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program P Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$  Products < Re: Question on Patches  Re: TELNETSYM monitoringP VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMScmd to wo) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE ) Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE D Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Progra	m) Re: VMS release dates  Re: What drives the mouse ?  Re: What drives the mouse ? - Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200 - RE: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200 - Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200 - RE: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200  [fun] DCL minute of the day   Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:03:11 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?< Message-ID: <P39r6.3154$G76.4946545@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message > K > Didn't Sun buy Cray, or at least the rights to the UE10K cache error box.  ItF > *IS* a Cray design. Which is probably why it's such a bad commercial > server...   I Indeed Sun did purchase the Cray technology that begat the UE10K from SGI E (remember them?). I don't think think the rights to, or the roots of, $ Cachegate hail from Mendota, though.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:37:19 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <nbxjRylsMMaF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <P39r6.3154$G76.4946545@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  > H > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message >>L >> Didn't Sun buy Cray, or at least the rights to the UE10K cache error box. > ItG >> *IS* a Cray design. Which is probably why it's such a bad commercial  >> server... > K > Indeed Sun did purchase the Cray technology that begat the UE10K from SGI G > (remember them?). I don't think think the rights to, or the roots of, & > Cachegate hail from Mendota, though.  K The lack of parity in Cray designs goes back at least to his days at CDC in J the early 60s. [The first machine I used in college was a CDC 6000, one ofH his cool early designs. RISC, functional units, pipelining, etc were allF present in this design, WAY ahead of its time.] Any error detection orG correction slowed down the machine, and his goal was always "full speed < ahead". Cost was never a factor, and reliability rarely was.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:40:22 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?, Message-ID: <98j8n6$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  s In article <c3Vq6.12962$5f.3392068@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  > 4 >The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.  : Good to hear that the invisible man is gainfully employed.   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech  J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:39:06 -0500 # From: Paul DeMone <pdemone@igs.net> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?' Message-ID: <3AAD25DA.42D2CF52@igs.net>    andrew harrison wrote: >   8 Hey look who crawled out of the woodwork. Hanging out at1 c.s.i looking for hints of when merced s(l/h)ips?      > Why wait.  > 4 > The Ultra III has an onchip memory controller now.  2 And the performance shows. Sure couldn't get those  SPECmarks with a system bus. ;^)  3 Hmmm, connecting CPU pins to SDRAM? I guess Sun has 6 a lot more cheap package pins than good ideas. Perhaps6 SDRAM was state of the art when the 3 was architected.   > 3 > Incedentally I do admire your logic Rob. 7 out of 4 > 8 wins for supercomputer business = a great future2 > for Alphaservers sounds great until you remember1 > that sucess in the HPC space does not guarantee  > sucess elsewhere.   7 I don't know. The Sun replacement business is certainly 7 a potential growth area. SPARC reminds me of the heyday 7 of the VAX. Big, noisy, lots of press, lots of revenue. 8 Slow CPUs held buoyant by software, seamless networking,8 but mostly fading reputation. And ripe for the big fall., BTW, has the US5 team come out of reset yet?     > ) > If it did then Crays and SGI MIPS based 1 > machines would be widely used for as commercial  > servers, which they arn't. > . > Its also good to see that you havn't stopped > selling futures.  8 That stuff is due in the near future. Like most of Sun's; US3 line. Except the EV68/EV7 stuff won't be born obsolete.      --D Paul W. DeMone       The 801 experiment SPARCed an ARMs race of EPICE Kanata, Ontario      proportions to put more PRECISION and POWER into G demone@mosaid.com    architectures with MIPSed results but ALPHA's well $ pdemone@igs.net      that ends well.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 03:12:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87vgpeby3v.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:   * > 	From what I understand, many folks have; > 	creative workarounds for Sun crashing problems (eBay for  > 	example)...  E Ah, So thats why Cray/SGI don't do wwell as commercial servers.  Knew B there would be a reason. Guess all those Origins out there must beB working for charity. And you'll never find an Indigo in a graphics of TV/Film studio...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:34:41 -0500 0 From: "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <1Gfr6.2393$3e.3015159@news3.mco>   F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:iecpi5zLI04F@eisner.encompasserve.org... G > In article <VhFq6.9855$5f.2979544@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. , Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:: > > "Darren Peacock" <daz005@hotmail.com> wrote in message< > > news:FsEq6.10155$0N3.67186@news-server.bigpond.net.au...   > G > There's always the CHARON VAX emulator for the PC. You can get a free % > hobyist version off their web site.   = Anything in this era is useless without network support. Even 9 my Amiga emulator supports TCP/IP handed down to Winsock. A Charon was one app that practically set a record for the speed in  which it hit my recycle bin.   Tony tonymATcompusourceDOTnet   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:37:31 -0500 0 From: "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <sJfr6.2395$3e.3015136@news3.mco>   ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message 6 news:c3Vq6.12962$5f.3392068@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > D > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message) > news:3AAC1518.B6EDB30D@earthlink.net...  > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > > > > > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message3 > > > news:EwxoEg4fdWff@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > > > H > > I've asked RM to hire me into exactly that position on more than one@ > > occasion. The results, so far, have been less than positive. > 5 > The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.  >   > He....I wondered if that "Marketing Director" has Commodore on+ his resume.....'bout the same productivity.    Tony tonymATcompusourceDOTnet   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 21:53:40 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <M0FF+04zZNXY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <1Gfr6.2393$3e.3015159@news3.mco>, "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net> writes:H > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in messageH >> There's always the CHARON VAX emulator for the PC. You can get a free& >> hobyist version off their web site. > ? > Anything in this era is useless without network support. Even ; > my Amiga emulator supports TCP/IP handed down to Winsock. C > Charon was one app that practically set a record for the speed in  > which it hit my recycle bin.  H From what I heard last week, the hobby kit is network-less, but the fullJ commercial version does have ethernet support. IIRC you can run DECnet outI the same port as your PC uses for TCPIP, but if you wnat to run TCPIP you  need to use a seperate card.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:59:41 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?. Message-ID: <Xfi0FPVXYPe1@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  s In article <c3Vq6.12962$5f.3392068@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  > 5 > The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.  >   M They have someone with that title.  There is no evidence this person has ever I directed any marketing efforts, except to those of us who are already vms 	 fanatics.      --  O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== O Dean Wormer to Flounder: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:13:23 -0500 - From: daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?8 Message-ID: <d04ratcu5cd4s5n06i724h6tdcdne7bf40@4ax.com>  K On 12 Mar 2001 12:38:40 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  >   >	Seems to be at least 6 months: > G >http://www.aceshardware.com/board/general/read.php?message_id=30008802  >  >"Hello all  > K > I ordered two Sunblade 1000 in September. I Have still not received them. 0 > Suns estimate is in late Mars. <= BWAAHAHAHA!    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:17:14 -0500 - From: daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?8 Message-ID: <j84rat09cd2f5rccs4asoqbtpld0m19iju@4ax.com>  I On 12 Mar 2001 19:40:22 GMT, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)  wrote:  t >In article <c3Vq6.12962$5f.3392068@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: >>5 >>The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.  > ; >Good to hear that the invisible man is gainfully employed.    Post Of The Week candidate.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:52:40 -0500 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?( Message-ID: <98k56u$fuc$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:cWnnu94KwPbZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...   F > There are several problems with all this of course.  Last I checked,E > the per port cost for switched storage will probably cost more than F > the server itself, maybe Infiniband's per port cost is significantly > cheaper?  I doubt that.   F You might want to rethink that doubt.  Intel seems hell-bent on makingB Infiniband a volume technology (perhaps not desktop-PC-volume, butG commodity-server-volume), and supposedly plans to make it a motherboard $ component to help get costs in line.  ,   Storage over-IP?  Read Pfister's follow-up > to that in comp.arch:  >  > L http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pfister+infiniband+group:comp.arch&hl=en&l& r=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=924890734&ic=1  H The observation that IP protocols tend to stress the host processor moreL than IB will, while correct, decreases in importance at least on the storageK end, where the host processor really doesn't have all that much else to do. H And while Greg wasn't optimistic about NIC-level hardware taking up thisK load, there are already 100 Mb and Gigabit Ethernet cards available that do A so (and pricing for the 100 Mbit cards was IIRC very reasonable).    > # > Infiniband is for the Datacenter.   : Not in Intel's plans:  they want it on every local server.      Google's solution of course isF > to have storage local (2 IDE drives internal to the thin-server) but > this is a special.  @ Their application may be a special, but there are a lot of otherL applications that it could be usefully applied to.  As well as a lot that itK couldn't, of course.  And doubling their drive density would be easy (e.g., H 2U server boxes with 9 hot-swap front-loading drives are on the market),K which also helps alleviate your power concerns (the more drives in the box, L the less the CPU contributes to the overall load - and in any event a lot ofD uses don't require that fast a CPU in the box, which drops its power requirement a lot).    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 04:09:38 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?1 Message-ID: <3aad9c93.175470142@swen.process.com>   J On 12 Mar 2001 21:53:40 -0500, kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:  a >In article <1Gfr6.2393$3e.3015159@news3.mco>, "Sharkonwheels" <tonym@compusourceDOT.net> writes: I >> "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message I >>> There's always the CHARON VAX emulator for the PC. You can get a free ' >>> hobyist version off their web site.  >>  @ >> Anything in this era is useless without network support. Even< >> my Amiga emulator supports TCP/IP handed down to Winsock.D >> Charon was one app that practically set a record for the speed in >> which it hit my recycle bin.  > I >From what I heard last week, the hobby kit is network-less, but the fullp/ >commercial version does have ethernet support.    That is correct.  H Personally, I think it's great that they've released a hobbyist version.D While it would be nicer if it included network support, it's still aD great alternative to only having Windows on a laptop.  It just meansF you have to be more creative about getting data in and out.  And sinceD the hobbyist version can read VMS CDs in your PC's CD-ROM or DVD-ROMF drive, that makes it even easier to get data in (and least initially).   >IIRC you can run DECnet outJ >the same port as your PC uses for TCPIP, but if you wnat to run TCPIP you >need to use a seperate card.X  H Or disable TCP/IP as an active protocol for Windows on your single card.  H You can even cluster the commercial version with your other VMS systems, if you have any.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/r9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:43:59 -0500t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010144000001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <87hf0ydhwm.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:  '  ( a very elegant and nicley turned outn) > plachyderm, but pale nether the less ) t   ^^^^^^^^^^J Is this some kind of down-under cross between a platypus and an elephant? F I bet it lays really big eggs.  Does it quack like a regular platypus?   :-)e   -- h Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:05:04 -0500M- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> & Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news, Message-ID: <3AAD4808.87E75C77@videotron.ca>  
 Someone said:T? > > Am I the only one who remembers YEARS of TV news of <latestiI > > breakthrough> and the white eyes in the background? DECtapes may have H > > been short on the MB, but they sure won on memorability. Bit hard to" > > do in this age of bland boxes.  M Or an actual VT100 in a Star Trek Next Generation Shuttlecraft (in the back).e  C Also remember seing some VT320s on a Saturday Night Live skit once.r  0 CNN used to be all VT terminals in their studio.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:09:09 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news, Message-ID: <3AAD48FC.E00056D9@videotron.ca>   Oh, and I almost forgot.  I The government of Canada had setup a national lottery to help pay for the,J Montreal 1976 olympics. The innaugural draw was done live on TV in a largeJ theatre with a show etc, and the winning number was printed on an original0 DECWRITER , standing in the middle of the stage.  L DECWRITERs were also featured in movies such as the one about a near reactorB meltdown (China Syndrome ? with jane fonda, michael douglass etc).   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:21:47 GMTl0 From: sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander)5 Subject: Re: Ask the Wizard:  'WIZ' is not an object!h0 Message-ID: <L5br6.45$G_1.2203@news.cpqcorp.net>   RE: wizard javascript problems.t  , If only all browers used the same standards.  K Ok, I have removed the nifty 'close the wizard question/answer window' when(, you exit the wizard page part of the script.  H At some point when I am updating the headers/trailers for the next roundK of brand changes I'll put in a 'close window' link on that page. Until then 8 you will have to hit the 'x' to make the window go away.  > Or use the non-javascript version and keep loading the page...     --  B ------------------------------------------------------------------6 Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingD Compaq Computer Corporation          Work:  warren.sander@compaq.comE 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@ma.ultranet.com'3 Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875h6    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myself -          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/ tB ------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 21:03:57 +0100) From: maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis)n Subject: bliss install joke :-)o! Message-ID: <fot4bLBfinTM@ludens>o   Hi,m   interesting...    C get a BLSALPHAN018.A and BLSALPHAN018.B from freeware archivum, andi  / $ @sys$update:vmsinstal BLSALPHAN018 sys$login:  [...]21         * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *t1         *                                       * 1         *   This kit and its contents are for   *c1         *                                       *81         *       DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY.      *y1         *                                       *o1         * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *r  8 %MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node TLE, -SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHNODE, remote node is unknownN %VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target directories...  B %BLISSALPHAN-I-IVP, Performing Installation Verification Procedure           ***************************       Successful  Installation                 of       BLISS-32E V1.8-028-38869       ***************************               ***************************       Successful  Installation                 of       BLISS-64E V1.8-028-38869       *************************** [...]2       :-)t    I Adam Maulis              maulis@ludens elte hu         VMS system manageraH  .......................................................................H  VMS Competence Center                             VMS Szakertoi KozpontH  Eotvos Lorand University                  Eotvos Lorand TudomanyegyetemH  Budapest, Hungary                                              BudapestH  =======================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:45:03 +0000.+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>s# Subject: Re: bliss install joke :-)s' Message-ID: <3AAD435F.2716ED23@iee.org>s   Adam Maulis wrote:3 >         * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 3 >         *                                       *o3 >         *   This kit and its contents are for   * 3 >         *                                       *e3 >         *       DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY.      *o3 >         *                                       *e3 >         * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *e > : > %MAIL-E-LOGLINK, error creating network link to node TLE. > -SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHNODE, remote node is unknownP > %VMSINSTAL-I-MOVEFILES, Files will now be moved to their target directories...  2 Many "internal use only" kits did this. The author- would code them to send him an email in order/ to gauge usage or whatever.e  + A number of formerly internal-use-only kitsr- have been released (via Freeware or whatever)a' without having these few lines of code N expunged from the installation.o  ) LD and NMAIL both did this IIRC (at leastP) initially, both may have been fixed now).w   Antonio-   -- -   --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgR   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:01:56 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)# Subject: Re: bliss install joke :-)b0 Message-ID: <oHbr6.49$G_1.2271@news.cpqcorp.net>  M In article <fot4bLBfinTM@ludens>, maulis@ludens.elte.hu (Adam Maulis) writes:a  D :get a BLSALPHAN018.A and BLSALPHAN018.B from freeware archivum, and ..2 :        *   This kit and its contents are for   * ..    I   I asked that that text be removed for the next Freeware submission kit rI   just a couple of weeks back, though I do not know if I will receive an  H   updated installation kit in time -- I do have a new version of Bliss, <   but this text likely remains embedded in the installation.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:40:52 -0800e! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com5- Subject: Re: Deassigning system wide logicals D Message-ID: <OF1E195D4F.9374DB25-ON88256A0D.006C0A98@foundation.com>  J You can't, AFAIK, deassign it for one process. You can mask it by creatingJ a logical of the same name in the job or process table, whichever fits the bill.c   Shanef          A Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> on 03/12/2001 01:13:12 AMs   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:A  * Subject:  Deassigning system wide logicals     Hi all,r  F  How can I deassign for a single process a system-wide defined logicalD (i.e. X11)? All other processes on the machine should be unaffected.                 Jouk   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 15:14:21 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)lY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Prm3 Message-ID: <IiRJNDpEZfAS@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  h In article <Pv8r6.34$G_1.2040@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  I > DII/COE is an attempt to create a magic bullet that allows code re-use. G > This would allow code that was written for mission X to be reused for . > mission Y.  This hasn't really happened yet.  ! Yes it has -- just not under COE.e  > The French used the Ariane IV rocket software in the Ariane V,% saving a lot of money on programming.t  < But they did waste a lot of money in other areas because the@ acceleration of the Ariane V overflowed a field in the Ariane IV% software causing the rocket to crash.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:17:37 -0500-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Help with VMS alpha installationwL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010117370001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>   Hello friends,  J I'm in the process of putting a fresh installation of VMS alpha 7.1-2 onto4 a DEC 3000-300 system.  This system has no CD drive.  J The system is already configured as a satellite in an existing cluster, soD I have access to all the cluster resources, including MSCP-served CD drives.w  M With the system booted as a satellite, I ran the VMS installation as follows:   6 @disk$alpha0712:[vms$common.sysexe]axpvms$pcsi_install  F ... as suggested in the installation manual, except I specified the CD drive instead of SYS$SYSTEM.  J This installation worked fine, but I realized part way though that all theH source files were taken from the running system's SYS$SYSDEVICE, not theI CD.  (The disk was busy, the CD was not.)  Examining the installation COM I file confirms that it uses SYS$SYSDEVICE as the source.  If I booted fromME the CD, it would be the source, but I booted from the running system.a  F I ended up with VMS 7.1-2 installed on the new disk, and nothing else:   -- F Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com3   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:37:45 -0500n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010137450001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>   Hello friends,  E [I accidentally posted part of this before I finished typing.  Please= forgive the partial repeat.]  J I'm in the process of putting a fresh installation of VMS alpha 7.1-2 onto4 a DEC 3000-300 system.  This system has no CD drive.  J The system is already configured as a satellite in an existing cluster, soD I have access to all the cluster resources, including MSCP-served CD drives.=  M With the system booted as a satellite, I ran the VMS installation as follows:a  6 @disk$alpha0712:[vms$common.sysexe]axpvms$pcsi_install  F ... as suggested in the installation manual, except I specified the CD drive instead of SYS$SYSTEM.  J This installation worked fine, but I realized part way though that all theH source files were taken from the running system's SYS$SYSDEVICE, not theI CD.  (The disk was busy, the CD was not.)  Examining the installation COMaI file confirms that it uses SYS$SYSDEVICE as the source.  If I booted fromgE the CD, it would be the source, but I booted from the running system.S  F I ended up with VMS 7.1-2 installed on the new disk, and nothing else:   SYSMAN> do product show product-1 %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node xxxxx < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------5 PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATE < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------9 DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.1-2               Oper System Installed < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------   1 item found   So far, so good.  I Next I tried to install some system integrated products and ECOs.  ThanksnI to this newsgroup, I learned these can be done in batches, so I did this:d   $ product install -c _$ dwmotif,- _$ decnet_osi,dnvosieco06,-- _$ ucx,ucxeco_42_4  * The following products have been selected::     DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1             Layered ProductE     DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO06 V7.1            Patch (maintenance update)r:     DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4              Layered Product:     DEC AXPVMS UCX V4.2-21                 Layered ProductE     DEC AXPVMS UCXECO_42_4 V4.0            Patch (maintenance update)   < (After defining an appropriate search list for pcsi$source.)   .m .e .f  ; I answered all the configuration questions, then PCSI said:h  + Are you satisfied with these options? [YES]I   Execution phase starting ...  9 The following products will be installed to destinations:,G     DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1             DISK$DAQALPHA2:[VMS$COMMON.]oG     DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO06 V7.1            DISK$DAQALPHA2:[VMS$COMMON.]iG     DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4              DISK$DAQALPHA2:[VMS$COMMON.]cG     DEC AXPVMS UCX V4.2-21                 DISK$DAQALPHA2:[VMS$COMMON.]1G     DEC AXPVMS UCXECO_42_4 V4.0            DISK$DAQALPHA2:[VMS$COMMON.]t  P %PCSI-E-PARUDF, file [SYS$LDR]NET$MESSAGE.EXE was not previously installed or is8  present but out of scope; loadable image update skippedE Terminating is strongly recommended.  Do you want to terminate? [YES]a   Portion done: 0%/ %PCSI-E-S_OPCAN, operation cancelled by requestbM %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error conditiont  H Now, I have one or two unusual things here.  The running system that wasA the source of the VMS 7.1-2 installation has the layered products G installed on it, as well as a number of ECOs.  I'm worried that the newnE disk is a mixture of 7.1-2 and various other bits, though none of theoG other products or ECOs are registered in the new disk's PCSI database. uG For example, the [SYS$LDR]NET$MESSAGE.EXE on the new disk is identified. as:   (         Image Identification Information  :                 image name: "DECNET-PLUS AXP NETWORK MSGS"7                 image file identification: "V7.1-ECO06" 3                 image file build identification: ""C7                 link date/time:  1-MAR-2000 10:10:37.68o/                 linker identification: "A11-20"o  I that is, it came from a DECnet-plus ECO installed on the old disk and not-C registered on the new disk.  My new disk has lots of NET$* files inrH [SYS$LDR], while the V7.1-2 installation CD doesn't have any in the same	 location.s     Questions for the experts:  D 1.  Is my impure source disk the cause of the failure of the layered product installations?  P 2.  Would it be safe to continue the layered installations, despite the warning?  H 3.  I don't have much time invested in the new installation so far, so I4 don't mind scrapping it.  Is that the best solution?  J 4.  I can scrounge a CD drive for the DEC 3000-300, but it may be a pain. @ Is there a proper way to boot the installation CD remotely?  TheI installation guide says an infoserver can be used, and we have one in the G basement, but I've never configured it.  Can I use some sort of clustere satellite boot from the CD?c  J 5.  Alternatively, is there a PCSI method to force the VMS installation to8 use the CD as the source when I'm booted as a satellite?   Thanks for any advice...   -- y Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:17:24 -0800t. From: Jack Trachtman <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> Subject: KERMIT Question( Message-ID: <3AAD5904.BC1A87AC@vmmc.org>   OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1 TCPIP V5.0A / C-Kermit 7.0.196, 1 Jan 2000, for OpenVMS Alphas" (ck::=$ckv196-axp-vms72-ucx50.exe)  G I've just started playing w/Kermit today.  When I execute the following  by  "ck k.k", the displayaH hangs at the Username: prompt and eventually times out.  What am I doing wrong?  Thanks.   	 $type k.kT telnet jxt1.vmmc.org input 5 Username:n output user\13 input 5 Password:c
 output pwd\13e	 input 5 >o$ output ftp ftp.support.compaq.com\13 ...    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 23:51:16 GMT0 From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Subject: Re: KERMIT Question5 Message-ID: <98jndk$22p$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>0  ( In article <3AAD5904.BC1A87AC@vmmc.org>,0 Jack Trachtman  <Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org> wrote: : OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1
 : TCPIP V5.0Ae1 : C-Kermit 7.0.196, 1 Jan 2000, for OpenVMS Alphar$ : (ck::=$ckv196-axp-vms72-ucx50.exe) : I : I've just started playing w/Kermit today.  When I execute the following  : by  "ck k.k", the displaynJ : hangs at the Username: prompt and eventually times out.  What am I doing : wrong?  Thanks.s :  : $type k.kp : telnet jxt1.vmmc.org : input 5 Username:g : output user\13 : input 5 Password:a : output pwd\13  : input 5 >D& : output ftp ftp.support.compaq.com\13 : ...- :  See the tutorial section of:  /   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckscripts.htmle  ( Consult the manual for complete details:  0   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ck60manual.html  - Short answer: replace "telnet" by "set host".o   - Frank    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:52:20 -0500s5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations0 Message-ID: <OV8r6.36$G_1.1911@news.cpqcorp.net>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3AA8F21B.BA31C0E9@uk.sun.com>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:o >> >e" >It depends on how you define big. > @ >One office I work in has 2 x NetraT1 servers each with a single? >400 Mhz CPU. The two servers are in a SunRay cluster and serve:; >around 20 SunRays. Performance is good and most people who : >have their own desktops are requesting SunRays because of? >the smart card facility and because they are small and silent.n >t8 >The other office I work in has 160+ SunRays served by a7 >12 CPU E4500. Again people prefer the SunRays to theirl7 >own desktop and I always use a SunRay if its availablen# >rather than a desktop workstation.l >E    G I didn't say it won't work, I just said it will take significantly moreeJ resources than a traditional X terminal... and it would seem to me that itG all depends on the type of work that the users do, and the use pattern.-J Many PC and Xterminals are used for exceedingly simple-stupid things (likeG writing this message, or reading mail).  In those cases, and assuming aeF fairly random distibution of demand - it probably works OK for smalishG numbers of users.  I would "hope" that a 12-CPU server could handle 160rH SunRays (at least as long as it avoids Alpha particals in the cache ;-).  K Mind you, I didn't say that the SunRay was a completely merit-less idea.  IaI can think of a lot of places that such a thing could be deployed.  I likedE the smart-card interface, and ability to transfer state.  I have someeC general problems that the wheel of reincarnation has come back to aaK completely centralized design and away from distributed computing.  Sure is- simpler though.   8 >Just to correct yet another incorrect SunRay assumption< >each SunRay does not require a dedicated network connection< >from the Server, SunRays require a switched ethernet, which; >isn't a big deal when you consider that unmanaged switched41 >ethernet ports now cost as little as 30 dollars.r >s    G I never said this.  I said that the SunRays needed to be connected to a-H dedicated LAN.  The server itself only needs a single connection to thisH LAN.  The literature clearly says that the SunRays can't be connected to0 your normal IP connection but needs its own LAN.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:07:22 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98j6pa$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  X In article <3AAA817B.22285D5C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > D >Probably it's exactly people like you at universities who helped in6 >abandoning VMS by using the wrong way to support it.   D What the #$(@&#! are  you talking about?  There was no conspiracy inJ academia to abandon VMS, at least not initially.  And I wouldn't describe H the situation now as a conspiracy, more like the tail end of a stampede.I That VMS was slaughtered in academia (and everywhere else, more or less) eJ was the direct result of the high costs of buying the systems, and also atC many points a result of their poor performance relative to the lessnK expensive Unix workstations. To a much lesser extent it was also the result*K of the cost of running the systems (having to pay for users, CSLG vs. otherlK programs.)  After several years of this though a definite antiVMS sentiment*I developed which could be summe up by: "why would you want to pay more foruA that" and "why would you want to do business with that company"? .  I Unfortunately we can ask the same questions today and the answers are, if C anything, even more unfavorable for VMS than they were in 1994 (fore instance).     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech =J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:13:55 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j75j$bf6$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>e  L In article <rdeininger-1003012010370001@user-2iveaph.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: I |> In article <SgHgDuRpgzB9@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum  |> (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:M |>  J |> >     Getting Alphas isn't the hard part. Our CSci department was givenC |> > 3 Alphaserver 1000 4/266s over a year ago. The instructor eveneG |> > asked (without my prompting) if it would be possible to put VMS onsR |> > them for him to use in an Operating Systems course. Getting licenses for themN |> > that are actually good for anything ( such as setting up a 3 node clusterB |> > that all the students can work on ) is expensive. As has beenI |> > explained numerous times in this NG, the current "education license"P& |> > program isn't much use for this.  |>  < |> For classroom use, I think the edu program is actally ok.  @ Nope, as has been stated here on numerous occaisions by numerousB people, it is totally unusable for that unless you want to be very@ liberal with the interpretation of the agreement you make.  SomeC of us believe it means what it says and are not willing to risk it.n> If I show it to our University Lawyer, she will take the most ; conserevative interpretation for obvious liability reasons.    |>  8 |> 1. College registers in program and gets access code.  6 There is no where I saw for the "college" to register.! Registrations are to individuals.s   |> t> |> 2. Each student in the class uses the code to get licences.  = Each student would have to agree to the terms of the license.t? I would not be allowed to require this nor could it be enforced- at my level.   |> uA |> 3. Instructor load's all the students' licences on the system.l  B I believe that this is expressly forbidden as you need to have one@ license (and one user) at a time.  It's the way and others have A interpreted it and it is realtively safe it is the way our lawyero1 would also interpret it. (remember, conservative)   5 |> Or have I misunderstood that crazy legalese again?l  6 Who is to say which one of us is misunderstanding it??; Compaq has failed up to this point to clarify anything and t5 chooses instead to merely regurgitate the same spiel.s  = But in any case, it is not usable in a classroom environment.    bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:20:34 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98j7i2$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <rdeininger-1003012010370001@user-2iveaph.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:eG >In article <SgHgDuRpgzB9@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scumr >(Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:r > H >>     Getting Alphas isn't the hard part. Our CSci department was givenA >> 3 Alphaserver 1000 4/266s over a year ago. The instructor even E >> asked (without my prompting) if it would be possible to put VMS oniP >> them for him to use in an Operating Systems course. Getting licenses for themL >> that are actually good for anything ( such as setting up a 3 node cluster@ >> that all the students can work on ) is expensive. As has beenG >> explained numerous times in this NG, the current "education license" $ >> program isn't much use for this.  > : >For classroom use, I think the edu program is actally ok. >-6 >1. College registers in program and gets access code.   So far so good.n   >n< >2. Each student in the class uses the code to get licences.  I The students shun your course because you are obviously insane.  Then thenJ college fires your crazy butt for even considering setting up a class thatI requires the students to obtain an operating system license just so that r6 they can use it on a machine owned by the university.   J Your replacement loads Linux on the Alphas you used to manage.  Or throws ( them out and puts in a room full of PCs.   > ? >3. Instructor load's all the students' licences on the system.   $ You can't, you were fired at step 2.   >i3 >Or have I misunderstood that crazy legalese again?a  L There is also the "minor" problem that VMS is almost never used in teaching.K A direct consequence of it almost never being used for anything else in an aI academic environment.  Why would anybody set up a lab to teach something s+ that nobody on campus was actually using???o   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edur? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech tJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:21:24 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j7jk$bf6$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>   , In article <3AABB1ED.81B8CBBE@infopuls.com>,,  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: |> t |> e |> If he would ...C |> Using a ten years younger OS than UNIX should not invite anybodyED |> from that very UNIX community to give advice against dinosaurism.  C How can VMS be 10 years younger than current Unix??  Both are still F under constant development and therefore current.  The only differenceD is in paradigm.  And thge fact that you don't like the Unix paradigm< does not make it older, or flawed or anything but different.  F |> UNIX and C/C++ are dinonsaurs in our business. I think these people |> should make a move. S  A Make the move to what??  An OS with absolutely no tools to do the C jobs that people need to do on a daily basis??  I am not advocatingYC abandoning VMS for Unix.  I am merely saying that if you think thisgC belief in the inherent superiority of VMS is going to guarantee itsh" survival, you are sadly mistaken.   D |>                     The basic problems of UNIX haven't been fixedB |> otherwise it wouldn't be UNIX any longer. Where is the point in6 |> lowering the quality or wasting the time with UNIX?  C There are no problems with Unix.  Your dislike doesn't constitute a-D problem.  When will you finally realize that there are more ways to C do things than the VMS way.  Or do you believe that the IBM way and E the Unisys way, etc. are all flawed??  Different does not mean wrong.-   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:32:50 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j892$c8t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>6  L In article <rdeininger-1103011635040001@user-2ivebcf.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  |>   |>  J |> Hmm.  They have to fill in a web page, and a PAK gets emailed to them.  |> Which part of that is hard? n  J Assuming this was how it actually worked, requiring the students to do it.  nG |>                             (Ok, I haven't done it.  I'm assuming ittM |> resembles the hobbyist mechanism.)  Are your students lamer than most? :-)i  C It has nothing to do with the students ability.  It has to do with DD legalities and such.  we as a school can not require the students toF make agreements with third parties in order to take the courses neededF to attain their degrees.  And the registrar's office probably wouldn't even if we could.  :  D There is no percieved gain from adding this requirement, therfore it will never be allowed.  B As has been said too many times to count.  The ball is in Compaq's@ court.  If they percieve a value to getting a fooyhold back intoA academia, then they need to be proactive aboutn accomplishing it.S* Up to this point, they don't seem to care.   |> cI |> Let's say that you have to control the registration of the PAKs on theoJ |> shared machines.  No reasonable interpretation of "control" implies you |> have to be present.    @ How does one control something one is not actively supervising??  tJ |>                     Classroom situations don't work that way.  StudentsI |> do classwork even when they aren't in the presence of the instructor. d  A That is precisiely why people here have continued to say that thex@ education program as proposed by Compaq is broken.  It seems to  contradict this very notion.  K |> Don't look for trouble when there isn't any.  For classroom use, the eduG3 |> license program gives you an almost blank check.E  E We don't have to, that's what lawyers are for.  And I have dealt with I ours before on these kinds of agreements and can guarantee the unveresityf8 will take the most conservative possible interpretation.   |> tK |> Or, most likely, you asked the wrong folks.  That's always a big problemlJ |> with Compaq.  The right person is hidden from public view, and when youK |> reach the wrong person, the wheels turn very slowly -- or they just blow " |> you off.  You never know which.  F Which means??  As I said, the ball is in Compaq's court.  If they justG "blew him off", then as I said, they must not see getting VMS back intoa. academia as something worth any effort at all.    M |> I'm not defending them.  But go ahead and use the program in classrooms --n% |> it's the only thing it's good for.   K Sadly, I don't think our lawyers would agree that "Bob said it was OK" was  I going to make a good legal defense when we were charged with violating an 
 agreement.   bill   -- vJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   .   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 03:04:47 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <87zoeqbygg.fsf@prep.synonet.com>u  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:n   > In articleC > <rdeininger-1003011121080001@user-2ive70j.dialup.mindspring.com>,:6 > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  D > > In article <98belu$j12$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu > wrote:  D > > > How could a school let a student do what I do??  I have accessF > > > to every account in the department.  That means I have access toD > > > all the profs tests.  All their personal grading spreadsheets.F > > > All the other students work.  What school could possibly allow a# > > > student this kind of access??r  * > > I've seent it happen in several cases.  ? > Knowing how hard it is to maintain academic integrity (you dorF > realize that when questioned about most high schools students openly; > state that they see no problem with cheating.  They don't2B > miraculously mature when they arrive here.) I can't see allowingF > student A to have any kind of access to Student B's files, much less@ > faculty members files and system level access to the machines.  D It depends on the student or staff member. I know some staff I wouldC not trust as far as I could kick an 8400. And some students who you.@ could trust till hell freezes over. Good rule is, never employ a> student from your school. Get one from another school/faculty.  B Over here, Honours refers to an extra year at the end, and part of an initial degree. IE BSc(Hons)m   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:53:22 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98j9fi$c8t$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>m  - In article <87y9ubcmd9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,d/  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:i |>F |> Work out what you want to do. Be generous. Write it up in a letter,H |> one copy to A McD, one to S Z, one to Compaq corp council, and copiesD |> to files. Let them know that if it is not correct, to contact youI |> before class start date and tell you what IS right. Make it clear thattA |> you will be distributing the result. If they don't complain in1G |> 'resonable time' then assume they are happy. Put it solidly in theirIF |> court. Send copy to R M and M C as well. I found pulling KO's chain |> ALWAYS got things sorted!  C My doing this would have no legal standing as I am not qualified tonG speak for or make legal agreements for the University.  Do you honestly G see the University's Lawyer doing the above??  Have you ever dealt with C corporate type lawyers??  The school functions quite well right nownF without VMS.  Courses are offered and degrees granted.  Why would theyE want to do anything as risky legally as this when they don't percieveb, it as necessary or even of any value at all.  E It is not up to the Universities to make Compaq's educational programi5 work.  It is up to Compaq.  Who doesn't seem to care.h   bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   k   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:02:22 -06001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam>t" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations0 Message-ID: <w53ofv6eoxd.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:w  + > In article <3AA88DC9.C5A8A26F@gtech.com>,yB >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:M > |> I do not think I have ever heard many complaints about the Ultrix -> DECd > |> OSF/1 move. > : > What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"@ > What exactly did OSF1 bring to the table that Ultrix-32 didn't > already offer??   G How much have you used OSF (sorry, Digital UNIX, sorry, Tru64)? I don't-G know, and none of us can for sure, whether DEC's reasons for the switchtH were mainly technical or political, but IMO it's a very nice system, andI nothing at all like the abhorrent mess of Solaris when compared to SunOS.m   Graham -- sI -------------------------------------------------------------------------a= Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - gta at umn.edu - (612) 624-5040g9 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of MinnesotabI -------------------------------------------------------------------------t   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:09:01 -06001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam>s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations0 Message-ID: <w53k85ueoma.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>  7 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:i  K > Tru64 does not support it out-of-the-box, support will appear in a futurerL > release, or on a seperate installation CD.  The VMS support for the VX1 isG > available via a patch on the website, and is integrated into the V7.3f
 > release.  A Tru64 has support for the card in the latest patch kits (for 4.0FoG and 5.1, at least). I guess that the out-of-the-box support will appearw in 5.1A.   Graham -- eI -------------------------------------------------------------------------a= Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - gta at umn.edu - (612) 624-5040 9 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of Minnesota I -------------------------------------------------------------------------f   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 14:26:17 -06001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations0 Message-ID: <w53hf0yenti.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:*  O > |> I'm not defending them.  But go ahead and use the program in classrooms --i' > |> it's the only thing it's good for.j > M > Sadly, I don't think our lawyers would agree that "Bob said it was OK" was aK > going to make a good legal defense when we were charged with violating ane > agreement.  D First let me say I understand completely what you are saying. But toI play devils advocate, what would happen if you were found in violation of H the (confusingly self-contradictary) license agreement? You would simplyG stop using the program? Compaq loses. Or do you think Compaq would take E some kind of legal action against you? Possible.... Compaq's "classicsA Digital" division clearly have a boatload of goodwill among theirlD higher ed customers, who love everything they do. They can certainlyF afford to make a grim example of a school which dares to try and *use* their program!  J I don't go to DECUS/CETS, but our people here who did go say that Compaq'sF edu people clearly said the base license from the free edu program can? be combined with ESL/CSLG to legitimise it's use in multi-user,t non-classroom situations.o  B Clearly that's still a "Bob said it was ok" thing, which is prettyE stupid, and Compaq should (1) clarify up the stinking mess of the edu.F program license agreement, and (2) fix the tiering problem in ESL/CSLG; (supposedly that's been "going to happen" for a while too).e   Graham -- vI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- = Graham Allan - I.T. Manager - gta at umn.edu - (612) 624-5040 9 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of MinnesotaiI -------------------------------------------------------------------------l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:51:29 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>d" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations( Message-ID: <3AAD36D1.8B898AD@bbc.co.uk>   David Mathog wrote:t  Z > In article <3AAA817B.22285D5C@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >aF > >Probably it's exactly people like you at universities who helped in7 > >abandoning VMS by using the wrong way to support it.t >.F > What the #$(@&#! are  you talking about?  There was no conspiracy inK > academia to abandon VMS, at least not initially.  And I wouldn't describeq  L Oh really, you mean "OK, we need to make this code portable so we can run itP on unix as well as IBM mainframes and VMS, but then once we've got it running onN unix we will give up making it portable anymore except possibly between unicesJ because we're too thick to read the VMS linker manual" isn't a conspiracy?/ This was the scene in HEP late 80's early 90's.    >tJ > the situation now as a conspiracy, more like the tail end of a stampede.J > That VMS was slaughtered in academia (and everywhere else, more or less)L > was the direct result of the high costs of buying the systems, and also atE > many points a result of their poor performance relative to the less0M > expensive Unix workstations. To a much lesser extent it was also the resulti  F so, buisiness managers started poking their stubby little fingers into? academic computing costs without cosidering basics such as TCO.pF I tell you, they should let a few engineers and scientists poke aroundY in their non-sensical tax regulations and dodgy, client fleecing accounting practices ando see how they like it.V  R Of course, Digital was sticking pointed sticks into its own eyes at the same time,; but the product was and is still good if you can afoord it.u    M > of the cost of running the systems (having to pay for users, CSLG vs. othernM > programs.)  After several years of this though a definite antiVMS sentimentpK > developed which could be summe up by: "why would you want to pay more forgB > that" and "why would you want to do business with that company"? >s  P I think a lot of people in academic computing (myself included) really could notG believe people would be usiing Windows and PC architecture machines foraP serious computung. I am talking mid-90s's and earlier. I was doing unix by then,L but still sneered at M$. Now I have Windows98 on my dek at work and at home.   >rK > Unfortunately we can ask the same questions today and the answers are, iflE > anything, even more unfavorable for VMS than they were in 1994 (forp > instance). >l  B Yeah, no applications, no young VMS talent, no 1k entry level box. We agree about that.    --w6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofd MedAS or the BBC.W   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 20:59:07 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations+ Message-ID: <98jdar$eab$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>y  0 In article <w53hf0yenti.fsf@lanark.spa.umn.edu>,4  Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam> writes:6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |>  R |> > |> I'm not defending them.  But go ahead and use the program in classrooms --* |> > |> it's the only thing it's good for. |> >  P |> > Sadly, I don't think our lawyers would agree that "Bob said it was OK" was N |> > going to make a good legal defense when we were charged with violating an |> > agreement.@ |> uG |> First let me say I understand completely what you are saying. But to L |> play devils advocate, what would happen if you were found in violation ofK |> the (confusingly self-contradictary) license agreement? You would simply  |> stop using the program? e  F You and I don't get to make that decision.  A court does.  At the veryG least, I would probably loose my job.  Do you think I am likely to take  that kind of a risk.  H As I said, the correct procedure is for me to go to the Unversity lawyerH and ask if we can use program X to do Y.  Given the admited ambiguity inG the written documents regarding this program her answer (this is based nG on my experience with having her evaluate agreements in the past) wouldnF be "No."  If I, instead, took it upon myself to do this, I would loose my job.i  K |>                          Compaq loses. Or do you think Compaq would takev* |> some kind of legal action against you?   I How can I even assume the risk of this as a possibility??  A nasty letterl7 from their lawyers to ours would probably get me fired.n  I |>                                         Possible.... Compaq's "classiciD |> Digital" division clearly have a boatload of goodwill among theirG |> higher ed customers, who love everything they do. They can certainlyoI |> afford to make a grim example of a school which dares to try and *use*D |> their program!e |> oM |> I don't go to DECUS/CETS, but our people here who did go say that Compaq's I |> edu people clearly said the base license from the free edu program canfB |> be combined with ESL/CSLG to legitimise it's use in multi-user, |> non-classroom situations.  C Then why isn;t that what the published information says??  Why have0B they refused to confirm this in the case of individual inquiries??C Compaq can settle this whole thing with one simple public published6& statement.  They have not done this.     |> rE |> Clearly that's still a "Bob said it was ok" thing, which is prettyiH |> stupid, and Compaq should (1) clarify up the stinking mess of the eduI |> program license agreement, and (2) fix the tiering problem in ESL/CSLGg> |> (supposedly that's been "going to happen" for a while too).  D Your right, Compaq SHOULD do this.  As has been said, the ball is inF their court.  Apparently, they do not see the advantage to an academic> presence that people here see.  Or else, they just don't care.   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 22:52:56 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98jk08$io7@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  _ In article <98j892$c8t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:S  C >As has been said too many times to count.  The ball is in Compaq's A >court.  If they percieve a value to getting a fooyhold back into B >academia, then they need to be proactive aboutn accomplishing it.+ >Up to this point, they don't seem to care.l  I Interesting typo.  It's actually spelled "phooey hold". They show us thissH brain dead program, and we say "PHOOEEY.  HOLD on now, what good is it?"   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech tJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 23:02:58 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98jkj2$io7@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  X In article <3AAD36D1.8B898AD@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: >  >pG >so, buisiness managers started poking their stubby little fingers intot@ >academic computing costs without cosidering basics such as TCO.  F No PHM involved.  Decisions, here anyway, were largely made by the endJ users, or one level up, by the PIs.  The usual situation was that somebodyK would have 10k$ for a new machine and that would buy them either a Sparc at C relative speed 1.0 or a VAXstation with less memory and restrictivemG licensing, at speed 0.3.  So they bought the Sparc.  Also remember thatnK through much of this it took the perseverance of Job to get Digital to sellk you a VMS machine. e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edul? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech eJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:21:22 +0000u) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>D" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAD7612.F74488C2@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <3AAA679A.17514F4@infopuls.com>,p. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> > 0 > Only one thing I will bother to comment on.... >  > |>K > |> > |>                                                  This is in partseN > |> > |> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much better7 > |> > |> sys control language compared to UNIX shells.  > |> >M > |> > And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others)oN > |> > Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitH > |> > that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in theL > |> > datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  IJ > |> > don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And myL > |> > Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shut > |> > off campus wide.e > |>G > |> Your site seems to be a special one. VMS is less stable than UNIX.c > |> Maybe it's you? > J > Sorry, I don't run the data center.  My VMS machines are as stable as myL > Unix systems.  The data center VMS machines are run by people with as muchK > VMS experience as I have Unix.  They don't confide in me why they have toeL > reboot periodically.  Or why they have to make the machine unavailable forK > 12 hours or more for backups (which is no differnt than being down as youp > can't use it.) >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  4 Okay, it's them. But the site seems to very special.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:08:50 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)y" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <yOVhrd15wdZQ@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  1 In article <OV8r6.36$G_1.1911@news.cpqcorp.net>, e9   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:u > I > I never said this.  I said that the SunRays needed to be connected to aaJ > dedicated LAN.  The server itself only needs a single connection to thisJ > LAN.  The literature clearly says that the SunRays can't be connected to2 > your normal IP connection but needs its own LAN. > D     Does it say why this is? Is it strictly a performance issue ( ieB you wouldn't *want* to use a lan for anything else once a bunch ofB SunRays are using up all the bandwidth ). Do the SunRays use IP to communicate with the server? i   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 17:19:26 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)e" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <h3guuR$DLOtb@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <98j6pa$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, o7    mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:v  C > that" and "why would you want to do business with that company"?   > @     Yep. The entire phenomenon can pretty much be summarized in  one word : ARROGANCE.e  A     Digital in the late 80's developed an attitude that we neededyG them more than they needed us. They became inflexible and bureaucratic.eH They tried to force customers to take services they didn't want ( wasn'tH there a move to refuse software maintenance on systems if Digital didn'tD do the hardware maint? ). They tried to force the sale of overpricedE systems ( VAX 3900 anyone? ) when they could easily have sold smallersM systems that were just as powerful - but marketed them only as "workstations" E and artificially restricted the user counts. They jacked up the price K of the CONDIST Layered products distributions, which are still outrageouslyo
 expensive.  K > Unfortunately we can ask the same questions today and the answers are, if E > anything, even more unfavorable for VMS than they were in 1994 (fory
 > instance).   >   F     Well I don't think I'd go that far personally - things have gottenH better, but there's still a lot more they could do. I'd say the problemsG I've had with Compaq have been more along the lines of "we didn't thinkaD this through carefully enough" rather than "we're sticking it to you1 because we think you can't do anything about it".S   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:43:20 +0000-) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> " Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <3AAD7B38.2ABA6D12@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3AABB1ED.81B8CBBE@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> > |> > |> If he would ...E > |> Using a ten years younger OS than UNIX should not invite anybody:F > |> from that very UNIX community to give advice against dinosaurism. > E > How can VMS be 10 years younger than current Unix??  Both are stillsH > under constant development and therefore current.  The only differenceE > is in paradigm.  And the fact that you don't like the Unix paradigm > > does not make it older, or flawed or anything but different.  The "designed in" flaws of UNIX are there and will be there and came from the 10 years older than VMS situation of not having resources and not having knowledge (at least the people who created UNIX). Times have changed 10 years long after the start of UNIX and VMS took advantage by design, architecture, methodology and so on. UNIX didn't. If it were re-designed it wouldn't UNIX anymore. I just read the introctury pages of a brand new very big UNIX book (I don't have it at hand, if you want to know, I canlook tomorrow and tell you). There was a section about "The UNIX Philosophy": ridiculous. Minimalism, lack of guidance (do it the way you like), selling the over simplistic file abstraction (the structureless stream of bytes) as an advantage, getting enthusiastic of the broken concept of pipeing into sort instead of having a decent concept of data manipulation and structure. But the most revealing fact was the absence of the discussion of the obvious flaws as there are the lack of a usable ClI, the lack ofn5 a command, parameter and option naming system a.s.o..  It's not about liking: defend the crap or shut up. Don't come with arguments like "you don't like it, it's only taste differences, all systems are equal because you can do all what you want if you take enough time to learn it a.s.o.".  8 What has substantially changed with UNIX since 30 years?   > H > |> UNIX and C/C++ are dinonsaurs in our business. I think these people > |> should make a move. > C > Make the move to what??  An OS with absolutely no tools to do the E > jobs that people need to do on a daily basis??  I am not advocatingoE > abandoning VMS for Unix.  I am merely saying that if you think this E > belief in the inherent superiority of VMS is going to guarantee its # > survival, you are sadly mistaken.s  H Move to design, architecture, structure, methodology, regularity a.s.o.. No tools? Ridiculous! More and more helpful tools built-in or delivered with the system than most UNIX admins will ever have an idea to use. intrusion detection, accounting, monitoring - you name it.e5 Thanks for admitting the inherent superiority of VMS!  But you are right: this inherent superiority won't guarantee its suvival. BTW I never claimed that. Instead I emphasised that's not the task of this NG to save VMS. I'm even not sure if we can contribute in saving VMS.   > F > |>                     The basic problems of UNIX haven't been fixedD > |> otherwise it wouldn't be UNIX any longer. Where is the point in8 > |> lowering the quality or wasting the time with UNIX? > E > There are no problems with Unix.  Your dislike doesn't constitute aaE > problem.  When will you finally realize that there are more ways to E > do things than the VMS way.  Or do you believe that the IBM way andlG > the Unisys way, etc. are all flawed??  Different does not mean wrong.w  ) But different does not mean right either.& When will you realise that it's not a point that other people solve problems the other way round. UNIX has an infinite set of problems. VMS has only two problems: Compaq and DOE conforming initiative to incorporate UNIX crap into VMS. I don't believe anything. I don't know the IBM way if such a thing even exists. Unisys?? I'm talking about the weaknesses/flaws of UNIX compared to VMS. But I don't expect to convince you. There are different people. If you like to mess around UNIX is your friend. Most people like messing around; most people like Windoze blabla not so many like UNIX only a few like VMS. Guess what kind of people like VMS!r   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:35:03 -0600w7 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net>s" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations- Message-ID: <3AAD8757.EBBE0B89@earthlink.net>u   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <3AAA679A.17514F4@infopuls.com>,k. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> > 0 > Only one thing I will bother to comment on.... >  > |>K > |> > |>                                                  This is in partssN > |> > |> due to the fact that VMS is more reliable and DCL is the much better7 > |> > |> sys control language compared to UNIX shells.h > |> >M > |> > And this is the funniest thing I have heard yet.  MY (and many others)yN > |> > Unix servers stay up just as long as the VMS one's.  While I will admitH > |> > that my VMS machines here stay up just as long, the Alphas in theL > |> > datacenter don't run continuously for more than a month at a time.  IJ > |> > don't know why they get re-booted, but the fact is they do.  And myL > |> > Unix boxes tend to get re-booted once a year when the power gets shut > |> > off campus wide.s > |>G > |> Your site seems to be a special one. VMS is less stable than UNIX.  > |> Maybe it's you? > J > Sorry, I don't run the data center.  My VMS machines are as stable as myL > Unix systems.  The data center VMS machines are run by people with as muchK > VMS experience as I have Unix.  They don't confide in me why they have toi > reboot periodically. .  H Possibly part of a pre-defined plan - to ensure that the system *CAN* beH rebooted, and has not been rendered unbootable by a corrupted boot block: or other problem. Commendable and recommendable, where not inappropriate, IMO.l  6 > Or why they have to make the machine unavailable forK > 12 hours or more for backups (which is no differnt than being down as yous > can't use it.)  @ Because it's the only way to do a truly "clean" backup, or fully$ defragment the disks, even with DFO.   ...IMO - YMMV.   -- e David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:59:47 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010159480001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <98j1kb$90v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:s      ,( > |>  If you could shake loose enough $$K > |> for a half-dozen used alphas, you could run a small class.  (One alphai5 > |> would do in a pinch.)  Used machines are cheap, p > N > Maybe cheap compared to new, but not cheap compared to the competition.  TheO > ROI on a PC is precieved immediately, not so the Alpha, which no one has even, > heard of.e > " > |>    and licences would be free > |> for this use.   > D > In a perfect world, maybe, but not in this one.  There are no freeI > educational VMS licenses that are usable in an educational environment.l  H For classroom use, the edu program _appears_ to be usable, though others are wary of the legalese.     M > I can buy a brand new P3 with a warranty and everything for ~$700.  I can'toG > imagine getting a functional Alpha capable of running VMS for that.  T  F You can _easily_ get a functional alpha workstation with a monitor forE $250 to $300, complete.  It won't be a recent model.  It won't have aC% warranty, but will be well broken in.     	 > And one O > box does not make a lab.  And if the lab is full of PeeCees, why would anyone M > using it bother to log into a remote Alpha when all the tools they need ares > right there on the desktop??  1 I thought the point was to learn something new...h  rJ > Nobody is going to opt for a character cell user interface while sittingC > in front of a Windowed GUI.  Another reason not to use the Alpha.h  H DECwindows isn't character cell.  It's not as flashy as the newer stuff,6 but you can mickey-clicky until your finger falls off.  H I hope these students have some willingness to learn new things, off theB beaten path.  If they won't venture beyond a Wintel GUI, the wholeD adventure is dead before it begins.  If that's the case, cost of VMSJ doesn't matter -- they've excluded it without trying.  I hope I never have  to hire such broad-minded folks.    cL > Good, so then when this same discussion comes around again in 6 months youJ > too will be able to see how as good an idea as everyone agrees it is, it" > never seems to go anywhere.  :-(  J Since I'm not on a university campus myself, I can't do anything directly.   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 22:45:57 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)D Subject: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?, Message-ID: <98jjj5$io7@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  h In article <334patocn2cjq9l842uu83kl0kg4kfko1p@4ax.com>, daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> writes:  @ Can somebody please verify the details related in this story? InK particular, the level of attrition at Marlboro and the hollowing out of theuJ small/midrange machine engineering pool.  This  makes future alpha systemsI development appear to be even more of an iffy proposition than it already  was. o   > K >Well....Remember they pre-sold a 256-processor box to the Feds - got muchohK >funding bucks for the deal - but by the time they actually built somethingoC >they could ship, the architecture could only get to 32 processors.*; >"Ooops! Sorry 'bout that - can you use a cluster instead?"  >PN >The last three years have been pretty weird for Marlboro. The first 18 monthsM >they were battered by The Big Lie out of Houston - that "the Digital merger"2N >was dragging down the corporate bottom line. Every time the rolled-up numbersG >lurched south, corporate hacks told every media outlet that their coredL >business (selling shitty peecees) was just fine - all of the money problems# >were due to the pit in Marlboro...e >mN >Well, you can work an engineer to death - as long as he thinks he's respectedL >for the effort. The folks at MRO clearly weren't. And the result - man, theK >attrition was awesome, as a *huge* percentage of the talent discovered TheTO >Outside World - some for the first time in 20-something years - and the notionw' >of stock that actually appreciated ;-)e  E It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially a technologya4 company - and then drive all the technologists away.   >nK >Meanwhile, the Oberfuerher is taken out, Mike C steps in, and as his firstkM >significant action, unravels the books in public. Whoa Nellie - what have wedN >here? "Houston, we have a BIG problem!" The core peecee business was tanking,$ >big time, and no bottom in sight... >*K >Meanwhile the midrange Alphabits and Tandems were actually turning serious M >profits (into the 9 digit range) and in fact were holding Q's head above the*$ >sea of "industry standard" red ink. >- >Gotta love the irony ;-)a >02 >As for Marlboro: well, some things never change:  >sK >- the volume server segment that *carried* Alpha for the last two years isfK >kaput - ALL of the engineers bailed - so the dual and quad bidness will bepK >based on reselling API hardware (assuming *that* effort ever bears fruit -o> >which is questionable - lots o' luck on chipset development).  D This is the part that's really scary.  The local experience with APIK machinery has been pretty dismal.  (These weren't my machines but I've been>I observing their "progress" at close hand.)  Quality has been bad (systemsiI that won't run at rated speed, systems that won't run with graphics cardsiF that they supposedly supported) and the price was only ever marginallyK lower than that of real Compaq kit.  And the API site doesn't indicate that>H they can run VMS or Tru64, although I'm pretty sure that the UP2000 can,G but not sure at what level of support that is.  (Ie, some of the NT 164 E systems will run VMS too, but that doesn't mean that anybody supports J that.)  Nor has API ever built anything with >2 processors, and it's a big" step in complexity up from 2 CPUs.   >ML >- Wildfire (aka Aquarius-II with $2000 blowers) *finally* starts shipping -K >three years late and still on a wing and a prayer. Will it ever recoup theoN >development costs - especially with the world-wide economy taking an extended >breather? e > O >- And now Marvel - yet another Platform For All Segments (No! No! We've *seen*hN >that movie!) - is stumbling along in the pipeline. Another technological tourM >de force - in an era of cheap hardware. The honchos will tell you they'll bemO >able to sell these from Slates to Crates. Good luck making any money at either  >end...r >n  H The outcome for both of the above products will depend more on marketingK than on technology.  Which, unfortunately, is not a good thing, consideringa* who it is that needs to do the marketing.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.eduu? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech -J **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:17:14 -08008 From: Matthew Economou <meconomou@cardinalsolutions.com>= Subject: New OpenVMS install - "LMF license check has failed"d( Message-ID: <98k3fq0p29@drn.newsguy.com>  O I've installed OpenVMS 7.2 on my AlphaStation 200 4/233, thanks to the hobbyistrG program.  During installation, I typed in my license info as suggested, I successfully installed the operating system (taking mostly defaults), and-I restarted.  The system went through AUTOGEN and rebooted into DECwindows.a  P When I try to log in as SYSTEM, I get the error "LMF license check has failed". O I don't understand.  According to the documentation I've read, if the licensingtB is incorrect, I should be able to log in on the console as SYSTEM.  F 1. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should try to do next? K Unfortunately, the license is definitely valid because I wasn't prompted to I re-type any of the licensing information during the installation process.r  P 2. Is there a way to hotkey back to text-mode, ala CTRL-ALT-F1 under XFree86?  IA get the feeling that DECwindows and OPA0: are not the same thing.e  N 3. Could I have mistyped my serial number when registering with DECUS/Compaq? F One of the characters could be an I or a 1 on the label on my machine.  L 4. In the marketing literature, the AlphaStation 200 is listed as supportingO OpenVMS, but the installation documentation only mentions the AlphaStation 205.   ) I've always wanted to run VMS.  Am I SOL?e  
 Kind regards,p	 #\Matthewt   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 06:28:09 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) A Subject: Re: New OpenVMS install - "LMF license check has failed"n' Message-ID: <98kelp$maj$1@joe.rice.edu>   9 Matthew Economou (meconomou@cardinalsolutions.com) wrote:nE : I've installed OpenVMS 7.2 on my AlphaStation 200 4/233, thanks to  D : the hobbyist program.  During installation, I typed in my license I : info as suggested, successfully installed the operating system (taking cH : mostly defaults), and restarted.  The system went through AUTOGEN and  : rebooted into DECwindows.  :eI : When I try to log in as SYSTEM, I get the error "LMF license check has mJ : failed". I don't understand.  According to the documentation I've read, K : if the licensing is incorrect, I should be able to log in on the console u : as SYSTEM.  ; The license that has failed is the one for DECWindows Motif    From the VMS secion:  0    DECW6.  Why is DECwindows Motif not starting?  G   "c) You may not have a valid Motif license.    To check for the Motifr       license, type the commands:  !      $ LICENSE LIST DW-MOTIF/FULLr%      $ LICENSE LIST NET-APP-SUP*/FULLa  F    and examine the information displayed.  Make sure that one of these*    licenses is present, valid and active."  H : 1. Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should try to do next? K : Unfortunately, the license is definitely valid because I wasn't prompted dF : to re-type any of the licensing information during the installation 
 : process.  5 Register a license PAK that covers DECWindows Motif. n  G : 2. Is there a way to hotkey back to text-mode, ala CTRL-ALT-F1 under eI : XFree86?  I get the feeling that DECwindows and OPA0: are not the same n : thing.  A You are about to learn how to do a conversational boot of VMS, asn) described in this section of the VMS FAQ:c  <  MGMT5.  I've forgotten the SYSTEM password - what can I do?  E When you get to the DCL prompt, you can register the DECWindows Motif ? or Network Applications Support (NAS) license, and then reboot.c  D It would be nice if DECWindows Motif would just gracefully terminate: when it fails the license check, and leave OPA0 available.  B : 3. Could I have mistyped my serial number when registering with H : DECUS/Compaq? One of the characters could be an I or a 1 on the label  : on my machine.   Not likely.o  D : 4. In the marketing literature, the AlphaStation 200 is listed as G : supporting OpenVMS, but the installation documentation only mentions u : the AlphaStation 205.   C It is supported, accoring to the VMS Software Product Description, u
 available at:k  0   http://www.compaq.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDF  " : I've always wanted to run VMS.     We salute your good taste. :-)   : Am I SOL?    No.i   : Kind regards,  : #\Matthews  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:58:35 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>V9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently , Message-ID: <3AAD4683.FC0C0186@videotron.ca>   Charlie Hammond wrote:F > The problem this often causes me is that if a sequentailly read fileG > is already open, the next read starts at the current postition in therD > file, not at the beginning.  Not surprisingly, this often producesE > unacceptably different results -- and no small amount of confusion.o  J That is why I like to put in a ON ERROR THEN GOTO MYCLOSE and ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO MYCLOSEh  L where MYCLOSE will close all files. This way, when you rerrun the procedure, it restarts at the top.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:49:15 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyr0 Message-ID: <Lncr6.51$G_1.2392@news.cpqcorp.net>  \ In article <3AAD4683.FC0C0186@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: :Charlie Hammond wrote:dG :> The problem this often causes me is that if a sequentailly read fileeD :> is already open, the next read starts at the current postition... : K :That is why I like to put in a ON ERROR THEN GOTO MYCLOSE and ON CONTROL_Y  :THEN GOTO MYCLOSE ..  K   I generally recommend a CLOSE/NOLOG be located immediately prior to each  L   OPEN -- in addition to a CLOSE on the normal exit path from the procedure.K   While JF's approach of using the error and control handlers to CLOSE the  L   channel will certainly work and is quite reasonable, I (personally) preferN   to use a "pre-emptive" channel close.  The location of the OPEN commands is L   (usually) obvious within a DCL procedure, the various potential procedure M   exit paths can be somewhat more difficult to completely cover, can be more iF   difficult to test, and can involve multiple error-handling routines.I   (Shameless Plug alert: The DCL book covers the pre-emptive CLOSE/NOLOG  
   technique.)h  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:07:18 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)h( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational Program+ Message-ID: <98j6p6$bf6$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>k  L In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5445@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,.  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: |>M |> Your message was perfectly reasonable up until this point.  I have to ask, N |> though -- what if you don't have the right to change anything permanent?  IK |> would say at that point the system in question is grossly misconfigured.n  H More likely, mis-managed.  One would have to go out of their way to makeG system that did not allow changing your shell (every Unix system I haveVH ever workd on had at least 2 to choose from) or modifying your .login orG .profile. In any case, the system would have to be assumed to be brokent- beyond the ability to do any real work on it.h   |>  > |> > Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at ? |> > least two different sets of scripts for two shells. Major i |> > step forward! |> oM |> Generally you can, on Unix, depend on the bourne shell.  The problem comesrL |> when people want to do things in their shell scripts that bourne won't doK |> (or are just too stuck on something else to use bourne).  If you want to O |> complain about the limited capability of the bourne language, that's another.4 |> thing, and you won't hear an argument from me. :)  J Today, one can pretty much plan on a Bourne Shell equivalent and a C-shellJ equivalent.  Thus the reason why most vendors provide two install scripts.H It would be very unlikely to not have at least one shell compatable with  these two basic shell languages.   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   y   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:30:20 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <98j84c$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  X In article <3AAAB0E5.3662255E@infopuls.com>, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:I >The point is not what other people think about UNIX or VMS. The point is-0 >what is true: VMS is *by far* the superior OS.   D You are SOOOOOO wrong.  Technical quality is much less important forI product survival than is marketing - especially buy in price.  Always has-H been, always will be. Beta was much better technically than VHS, yet VHSF now owns the market, except for a tiny, but I imagine lucrative, nicheE occupied by professional Beta. (All those news vans are carrying betaaH Camcorders.) I bet they make at least a 50% markup on every one of thoseB pro beta machines. And I'll also bet that each and every other VHSK manufacturer makes more overall with its lower margin VHS machines, becausec+ they sell about 100 to 1000x more of them.     Sound familiar?b   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edut? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech oJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:37:14 -0800u! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.come( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramD Message-ID: <OF4BC745D9.E02C6EBF-ON88256A0D.0065D1F4@foundation.com>  I While I see where you're coming from, I wouldn't make this such a blanket E statement. I'd wager there's many useful features in Unix that aren'tdH dangerous, and if implemented with the quality we've come to expect from% VMS engineering would be very useful.s  J I for one am looking forward to fork(). I know you won't like it, coz it'sJ C, and that's against your religion, but it would make it feasable to portK a lot more apps over to VMS and that's a Good Thing. For example, I believecJ Mozilla wouldn't exist for VMS if the VMSE guys hadn't worked out a way to fork.n   Shanef          = Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 03/10/2001 01:47:58 PMn   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. cc:t  ) Subject:  Re: OpenVMS Educational Programo     Alan Greig wrote:e >e= > On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  > Gunshannon) wrote: >uI > >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,oI > >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is.  > H > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSG > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give uss+ > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.o >t+ > What we still need is marketing and apps.- >- > >- > >bill- >- > -- > Alan  G The best of both worlds is VMS. Any single element of UNIX put into VMS  reduces its quality.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 03:33:52 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Poor Administration? (was) Re: Russian Mafia Increases TCO Of M$  Products < - Message-ID: <87n1aqbx3z.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  / Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:   F > yeah, I mean if "old" NT is so crap to start with why should the new > system be any better.e  C Simple. If the BOHICA brigade can't take five to get their kneecapsoC out of their mouth and get a bit of oxegen, then many will look for5C air in other fields. The borgmeisters have to backoff the rakeoff a C bit or their blood donors will pick up their credit card and leave.h  F Not that it seems any better. In fact, it is worse that 3.51 or a well	 sorted 4.    -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:14:59 GMTd) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)i  Subject: Re: Question on Patches0 Message-ID: <3aad4931.10779620@news.wcc.govt.nz>  ' There are a couple of Patch mechanisms.e& Since you're running Alpha you can do:   $ PRODUCT SHOW HIST   7 This will show all PCSI Installed Products and Patches.   " $ TYP SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL.HISTORY  ? This will show all of the Patches installed using the VMSINSTALs Utility.  ? There are a number of Compaq Sites that list and make availabletE Patches for the major products, VMS, DECNet & TCPIP. Patches to other E Layered Products are not as easy to find and generally require a callg
 to Compaq.   Hope this helps,   Rob.  8 On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:18:37 GMT, sfm1115@bjc.org wrote:   >Hi All, >,- >I have a quick question on OpenVMS Patches. a >aF >I know with Sun Systems there is a patchdiag tool which tells you theG >current level of your patches and what you need to obtain new patches.m >aC >With Microsoft, you have the WindowsUpdate Site and Service Packs.n >t% >Novell you get a list on CD Monthly.i >QF >Is there a tool I can run against my Alpha servers to show me where I? >am at on my servers like the patchdiag or windows update tool?h >e >Thanks- >e >Shawn   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:45:57 GMTA$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>! Subject: Re: TELNETSYM monitoringd( Message-ID: <3AAD8A11.2050401@wi.rr.com>   Try ACCO/QUEUE=que_name......i4 to see which of your queues are actually being used.  
 -scott :^)  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:   > K > I have more than 1200 queues in my OpenVMS servers but I really dont know 
 > how manyL > are really working, because the help desk people use to create  the queues	 > withoutn2 > informing if it is a new queue or a moved queue. > E > I believe we have about 900-1000 real printers in the company usingn > Lantronix EPS and MPS. > F > So, how to monitor these EPS and MPS under OpenVMS  and the printers > connected to them ?r > L > If it is connected to the LAN or not ? Do you know any software to do that > ???  > H > If I had a Queue Monitor with a semaphore would be good . . . like red > stopped, yellow stalled,L > green idle, yellow blinking busy, and red blinking not connected .... just > for example ! ! !  > = > Monitoring by queue or by print server .... (both ways) ...h > 	 > Regardse >  > FC >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:54:22 +0000c2 From: Andrew G Scott <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com>Y Subject: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMScmd to woe, Message-ID: <3AACD50E.3DCE2D8B@jpmorgan.com>  G I am using "diff /parallel /page <file1> <file2>" to compare two files.hG The two files are essentially the same, the only differences being thatS6 one _should_ only have additional lines of code in it.  G The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new code F in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content thatG are not different. That said, if you looked across the two files at the,G same sort of line numbers, the files would be "different" but the pointsG is that if diff simply looked ahead to see if there was a match then it*F would find one even if it meant the match was displaced by a number of lines.  @ I tried to replicate this using two short files which would have/ explained it better but I failed but here goes.    file 1    file 2  
 a        a
 b        1
 c        b
 d        c
 e        2
 f        g	 g       dd	 h       en	         fj	         ge	         hl  G Now, I'd expect diff to report the new section in file 2 but it reports>F that lines "g" and "h" in file 1 differ from lines "d" and "e" in fileF 2. Yes, strictly speaking they are different but not if you look ahead6 and look for matches. The Unix diff command does this.  C I see VMS diff has other qualifiers that I can use to set number of A matching lines etc. but it could take me ages to figure them out.Y   Can anyone help?   Regardsn Andrew Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:20:13 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE0 Message-ID: <Zj9r6.40$G_1.2061@news.cpqcorp.net>  L The 4D10T (aka S3 Trio64 chip on a dimond video card) hasn't been touched inK a very long time.  It doesn't do DMA, and it doesn't use interrupts.  So it.I should be relatively immune to the boot reset problems (the 500au doesn't 2 cleanly reset all PCI devices on a reboot anyway).  K Do me a favor and try reducing WSMAX (sounds dumb I know).  Unfortunately IgH will be going on vacation for about 10 days and won't be able to see theL results.  I'm assuming that this system has at least 64 MB of memory or that  it isn't running DECnet phase 5.  I The one thing that can go wrong on systems - and I started to see this onaH V7.2-1 - especially those with less than 64mb of memory (now the minimumK memory if you are running Motif and Dnet) - is that a IOC$MAP_IO call failsiK when the driver try's to map the hardware.  The failure can be tracked backhK to a failure to expand the system page tables, and that can be tracked to auG failed check for "fluid pages".  This check is trying to make sure thatoH there are enough physical pages available to allow inswap of the largestI possible process (or some such thing).  The failures here can be random -tG but the graphics tend to initialize last - and so they end up being the  victim more often than not.E  F Also, check to see if INDRIVER/IK/IM are all loaded at the time of the8 crash.  Try unplugging the mouse when you do the reboot.        ! Jerry Leslie wrote in message ...a5 >Fred Kleinsorge (kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com) wrote:o >:> >: Jerry Leslie wrote in message <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>... >:? >: >  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power offo3 >: >     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot? >: > >: >:/ >: What type system and graphics is this again?o >hF >The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au; the graphics card >is a PowerStorm 4D10T.L >  >Is BOOT_RESET set to ON?d >a
 >It's OFF: >a2 >  OLYWS3> write sys$output f$getenv("BOOT_RESET") >  OFF >e >:L >: A frequent problem with warm boots on some workstations is the failure toL >: re-initialize the PCI devices.  So a reboot can occur with a device stillK >: active, and worse - sending interrupts.  What we have frequently seen isi thelD >: device driver being loaded and getting interrupts before the data
 structures& >: are all setup.  And poof.  A crash. >:I >: This is/was a general problem with the ELSA graphics, and probably thenJ >: 3D30/4D20, on things like the DPW500 & 600.  There is new firmware thatL >: explicitly resets the devices (because there isn't a general way to resetI >: the PCI on this system!) and at least on the ELSA a new driver (in thet mostF >: recent patch kits) that does some belt-and-suspenders checks in the? >: interrupt path to make sure that initialization is complete.e >: >: >o) >The following patches have been applied:h >i >  o vms721_update-v0100 >  o vms721_pcsi-v0100 >  o vms721_cpu2208-v0100t >  o vms721_graphics-v0400 >sF >What's the version of the new firmware and where can it be obtained ? > 0 >--Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net< >                 leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid3 >                 (my opinions are strictly my own)m   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:11:25 GMTc4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie)2 Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1 Bugcheck In DECW$REINIT.EXE' Message-ID: <xIcr6.251$%L5.9824@insync>   4 Fred Kleinsorge (kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com) wrote:N : The 4D10T (aka S3 Trio64 chip on a dimond video card) hasn't been touched inM : a very long time.  It doesn't do DMA, and it doesn't use interrupts.  So it1K : should be relatively immune to the boot reset problems (the 500au doesn'tO4 : cleanly reset all PCI devices on a reboot anyway). : M : Do me a favor and try reducing WSMAX (sounds dumb I know).  Unfortunately IoJ : will be going on vacation for about 10 days and won't be able to see the : results.     I'll email them.   :nD : I'm assuming that this system has at least 64 MB of memory or that" : it isn't running DECnet phase 5.  < It has 256 Mbytes of memory, and is running DECNet Phase IV. : K : The one thing that can go wrong on systems - and I started to see this on J : V7.2-1 - especially those with less than 64mb of memory (now the minimumM : memory if you are running Motif and Dnet) - is that a IOC$MAP_IO call failsaM : when the driver try's to map the hardware.  The failure can be tracked backcM : to a failure to expand the system page tables, and that can be tracked to a.I : failed check for "fluid pages".  This check is trying to make sure thateJ : there are enough physical pages available to allow inswap of the largestK : possible process (or some such thing).  The failures here can be random -eI : but the graphics tend to initialize last - and so they end up being they : victim more often than not.E : H : Also, check to see if INDRIVER/IK/IM are all loaded at the time of the: : crash.  Try unplugging the mouse when you do the reboot.  0 IIRC, there was no mouse or keyboard plugged in. :  : # : Jerry Leslie wrote in message ...c7 : >Fred Kleinsorge (kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com) wrote:  : >:@ : >: Jerry Leslie wrote in message <05Pn6.79$%L5.4561@insync>... : >:A : >: >  2. Why does the system boot successfully from a power offo5 : >: >     state, but crashes in an attempt to reboot  : >: > : >: : >:1 : >: What type system and graphics is this again?f : > H : >The system is a Digital Personal Workstation 500au; the graphics card : >is a PowerStorm 4D10T.i : >  : >Is BOOT_RESET set to ON?D : >o : >It's OFF: : >p4 : >  OLYWS3> write sys$output f$getenv("BOOT_RESET") : >  OFF : >i : >:N : >: A frequent problem with warm boots on some workstations is the failure toN : >: re-initialize the PCI devices.  So a reboot can occur with a device stillM : >: active, and worse - sending interrupts.  What we have frequently seen isn : thenF : >: device driver being loaded and getting interrupts before the data : structures( : >: are all setup.  And poof.  A crash. : >:K : >: This is/was a general problem with the ELSA graphics, and probably thepL : >: 3D30/4D20, on things like the DPW500 & 600.  There is new firmware thatN : >: explicitly resets the devices (because there isn't a general way to resetK : >: the PCI on this system!) and at least on the ELSA a new driver (in thek : mostH : >: recent patch kits) that does some belt-and-suspenders checks in theA : >: interrupt path to make sure that initialization is complete.o : >: : >: : >e+ : >The following patches have been applied:u : >t : >  o vms721_update-v0100 : >  o vms721_pcsi-v0100 : >  o vms721_cpu2208-v0100I : >  o vms721_graphics-v0400 : >2H : >What's the version of the new firmware and where can it be obtained ? : > 2 : >--Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.net> : >                 leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid5 : >                 (my opinions are strictly my own)t :  :   / --Jerry Leslie   leslie@209-16-45-97.insync.nets;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalidt2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:53:37 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>M Subject: Re: VMS Quality vs. New Features (was: OpenVMS Educational Progra	m)t< Message-ID: <Bzbr6.3171$G76.5010319@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  8 "Christopher Smith" <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in messageF news:3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5449@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com... > > -----Original Message-----F > > From: koehler@encompasserve.org [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org] >s= > > That may not stand up to well against Solaris, HP-UX, and  > > Windows being-. > > able to claim being the reference systems. >tF > > Why buy product X on the basis that it's certified to be just like > > product Y? >nK > A better question is, why buy anything which allows windows to serve as a-B > reference system in the first place?  Does anyone else find that disturbing?. >   F Sure, just as I am disturbed by McDonalds as a reference benchmark forF eateries, and by USA Today as a reference standard for news. It's justF another example of being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:40:59 GMTi2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VMS release dates0 Message-ID: <fD9r6.43$G_1.2071@news.cpqcorp.net>  h In article <0Gzq6.12186$v5.53177@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "Nick Ogbourne" <okeburnit@bigpond.com> writes:M :Can anyone point me to a table that lists the release dates for the versionse :of VMS?  ,       newer                          RoadmapH   For ||||| releases, please see the ||||||| section in the OpenVMS FAQ.-       older                          History o  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:24:10 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>*$ Subject: Re: What drives the mouse ?0 Message-ID: <Gn9r6.41$G_1.2037@news.cpqcorp.net>  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3AABF710.A4E82D33@videotron.ca>...h >.
 >Question: >eJ >What does the fact that the mouse was still moving tell me about what was andF >wasn't running on that node ? >>7 >Under what circumstances would the mouse stop moving ?  >sI >( I seem to be having my share of reboots these days, it had been such a  longI >time since I had such a spate of reboots, once has to relearn so much !)   I On graphics except the S3 Trio64, and Mach 64, and perhaps another one oftG the older PC commodity cards, the cursor is moved by the device driver.r> This means that interrupts were being delivered at device IPL.  I It tells you nothing about what was happening on the system in user mode.tD It does tell you that you were not in a loop at or above device IPL.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:03:38 GMT:7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) $ Subject: Re: What drives the mouse ?& Message-ID: <GA45q2.ELt@world.std.com>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:u  H >Yesterday, I froze my workstation with a TELNET/CREATE_SESSION command.N >Interestingly, the node remained in the cluster, the mouse would move around,M >but clicking on any window to make it active would do nothing. Nothing couldwM >be typed, and <CTRL-Y> in the current decterm windows (stuck with the TELNET  >command) did nothing.  K >The other node in the cluster didn't complain. So I assume that deep down,-G >BIKE was still saying "hello I am here" to keep itself in the cluster. U >However, from VELO, doing SHOW SYS/NODE=BIKE would freeze and had to be control-Yed.- ...-
 >Question:  N >What does the fact that the mouse was still moving tell me about what was and >wasn't running on that node ?  I It tells me that it was running at an IPL lower than the mouse/VGA devicesF IPL or (probably) fork IPL.  I don't know much about the display/mouseI device drivers but I belive that mouse movement is at device or fork IPL. H That it remained in the cluster as seen from the other node (you did NOTH get a "removing node" message, right?) tells me it was running below SCSD IPL (IPL 8).  The windows behavior/no response to remote SHOW SYSTEMG requests shows it was running at or above the rescheduler IPL (3 or 4).aH IPL=interrupt priority level. Normally system is at IPL 0 (no interrupts/ or interlocked code running, running processes)i  7 >Under what circumstances would the mouse stop moving ?5  K If system was stuck at or above the fork or device IPL of the mouse/display  device driver.   -Mike    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 03:23:15 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>6 Subject: Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200- Message-ID: <87r902bxlo.fsf@prep.synonet.com>3  - Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:     D > I'm planning to ( Real Soon Now :) get my VAXStation 3200 actually   Station or MicroVax?  F > plugged into the network, and doing stuff.  It's a hobbyist project,@ > of course.  It's up and running well right now, but I need theE > following to make it do something useful, so does anyone know wherea > I can get:  M > Those QBus serial widgets (I believe they drive four to eight ports  I haveeL > the -- what do you call it? -- backplate with the ports on it, but not the > board)  I I think you will find you have the boards, and what you need is the cabler to MMJ box, aka a mouth organ.  F > A copy of a relatively old version of VMS ( I have 5.5 on there now,B > but I don't have the full installation, and I really want TCP soA > that I can get it to speak to my various non-VMS machines ) I'dfB > prefer one that offers the option of VWS, since I might actuallyB > plug the framebuffer back in eventually.  This could be on TK50,E > DDS-2, or CD.  I'd be copying it off onto TK50 really, but I have aaE > DDS-2 drive and a CD drive (and a tk50, of course) on my VAXStation-/ > 3100 which I could use to transfer the stuff.:  B Get the Hobby licence. Plug it into you 3100, and read the ClusterE manual :) Then copy it over with backup. Or get a new version CD set,E. install on the 3100, and copy via the cluster.  C > Those 10-base-5 to 10-base-T widgets -- anyone know where I couldcE > get them relatively inexpensively?  I actually could use several ats< > this point.  I suppose a base-5->base-2 would work, too...  B I think you mean trancievers. AUI ( the 15 pin bit ) to the cable.E Use co-ax. TP is the pits, and offers nothing unless you can run Full E Duplex. AUI coax xcvers are a $0 item now days it seems. I have never ) had to pay for one. Ditto AUI-TP xcevers.d  E BTW, get a copy of Hoffs excelent FAQ and read it. Well worth it, and  will save you a ton of agro.   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:31:38 -0600.+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>-6 Subject: RE: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD544F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Paul Repacholi [mailto:prep@prep.synonet.com]g  / > Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:g  F > > I'm planning to ( Real Soon Now :) get my VAXStation 3200 actually   > Station or MicroVax?  I Station, but I've taken the graphics boards out until I can get the K/V/M  setup and the funny cable. :)s  < > > Those QBus serial widgets (I believe they drive four to  > eight ports  I haves? > > the -- what do you call it? -- backplate with the ports on a > it, but not thee
 > > board)  ? > I think you will find you have the boards, and what you need d > is the cable  > to MMJ box, aka a mouth organ.  J I wish I had.  Unfortunately, there are no boards that I haven't accounted for as one of the following:  I RAM, CPU, Disk controller (for "MFM" type disks, there's an RD54 in there  now).a  D > Get the Hobby licence. Plug it into you 3100, and read the ClusterG > manual :) Then copy it over with backup. Or get a new version CD set,g0 > install on the 3100, and copy via the cluster.  I Only problem here is that I wanted an older version of VMS on this thing. I The 3100 is running (because it's what I have on CD) 7.2  My rationale is L that with the RD54, I probably don't have the space for 7.2.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  J It's worth noting here that the machine is already licensed, and running aK very bare install of VMS 5.5 (yep, just plain 5.5) that I happen to have on E TK50.  I'm preparing to get something a little less "bare" put on it.-  J I suppose I really should upgrade to ESDI or SCSI -- but I haven't managed it yet.i  D > I think you mean trancievers. AUI ( the 15 pin bit ) to the cable.G > Use co-ax. TP is the pits, and offers nothing unless you can run FullhG > Duplex. AUI coax xcvers are a $0 item now days it seems. I have nevern+ > had to pay for one. Ditto AUI-TP xcevers.t  I That's exactly what I mean.  I've been having trouble finding them aroundeG here recently.  I already have some NICs that are using both types, and H could easily plug another machine in of either kind, so which type is ofH little importance.  As far as that goes, I suppose I could try to run anI real 10-base-5 cable.  Though, it seems kind of a waste since it would beo going about 10 feet. :)t  G > BTW, get a copy of Hoffs excelent FAQ and read it. Well worth it, andd > will save you a ton of agro.  H I've gotten quite a bit of information from that FAQ, as a matter of ... FAQ? (Thanks Hoff!)o  3 Anyway, that's the situation.  Thanks for the help.t   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerr Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e 'f   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:06:42 +0000h! From: Andy Burns <andy@burns.net>i6 Subject: Re: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 32008 Message-ID: <71iqatol2v8cbi1hle4g26cmmtl12pojt2@4ax.com>  5 On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:31:38 -0600, Christopher Smith  <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:    K >It's worth noting here that the machine is already licensed, and running a. >very bare install of VMS 5.5   ? just because you've got the original licence3s still on it fromeC whereever you got it, it doesn't mean those are your licences, IIRCi> you have to pay a transfer fee and only the base OS licence is+ transferable, none of the layered apps ....o     --  
 Andy Burns   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:48:46 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> 6 Subject: RE: Where can I get ... for a VAXStation 3200L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5450@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----* > From: Andy Burns [mailto:andy@burns.net]  7 > On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:31:38 -0600, Christopher Smithh > <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  @ > >It's worth noting here that the machine is already licensed,  > and running as > >very bare install of VMS 5.5f  A > just because you've got the original licence3s still on it fromnE > whereever you got it, it doesn't mean those are your licences, IIRCr@ > you have to pay a transfer fee and only the base OS licence is- > transferable, none of the layered apps ....e  > I thought I was impeccably clear on this, but here goes again.  H I get hobbyist VMS licenses as a matter of course for all of my machinesI which are able to run it.  They are all current, and all installed.  This 7 machine included.  There are five in all at this point.t   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developero Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i '1   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:38:00 GMTh, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>$ Subject: [fun] DCL minute of the day& Message-ID: <3AAD2578.12315D43@gmx.ch>  C http://webperso.easynet.fr/didier.morandi/dcl_minute_of_the_day.jpg   
 (12390 bytes)s   (c) www.lollie.com   D. --   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2001 19:01:35 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142 (Wayne Sewell)7) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribersD. Message-ID: <pISwie4IK0+V@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  o In article <98i0hq$18c$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>, "Jean-Francois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr> writes: K > "Wayne Sewell" <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.344932.killspam.0142> a crit dans leo3 > message news: 32o4H5SMD2oK@tachxxsoftxxconsult...  > M >> I intercept the messages coming in, and convert them to news articles, and  > feedH >> them into my news server.  That way I can treat mailing lists as just	 > another 
 >> newsgroup.o > ' > Do you process such mails under vms ?t >   H I do *everything* on vms.  The *only* reason I have a billybox is to runN quicken.  There's no way in hell I would ever read mail or news from there, orO do anything important on that machine.  (Okay, okay, quicken is important to mynK business, but I don't trust the billybox with the quicken database.  I backh that up to a vms disk.)f  M The mail-to-news filter uses the mx site interface to create a news batch for  the anu news server.   Waynet -- iO ===============================================================================tM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxf: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== O Dean Wormer to Flounder: "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life."r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:00:16 GMTa$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>) Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Info-VAX suscribers.& Message-ID: <3AAD8D6C.70805@wi.rr.com>  < Yes, there *are* only 79 VMS gurus left in the entire world.@ Surprisingly, we manage to keep most of the world's health care  organizations,D financial instutions and chip fabs running with only 79 warm bodies.= That explains why I'm so damn tired all the time.  Ha ha ha!!e  
 -Scott :^)  F p.s.  Seriously, I haven't been on Info-VAX for close to five years.  , Reading the stuff in comp.os.vms via an nntp" client is much faster and easier.    John E. Malmberg wrote:   ( > In article <3AA9FDEF.BD6B6A96@gmx.ch>,0 > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: > ? >> How come there are only 79 people currenty subscribed to the:? >> info-VAX list? Are we only 79 persons dealing with VMS dailya> >> operations in the world (we could create a club) or most of7 >> the readers/participants use a news browser instead?g >  > 9 > Please read the section on info-vax in the OpenVMS FAQ.  >   > Http://www.openvms.compaq.com/ >  > -Johnh > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Onlyp   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.143 ************************