1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 13 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 144       Contents:' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ' Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?  ...and  COMPAQ wins... by TKO !  500au Video questions  Re: 500au Video questions  Re: 500au Video questions  Re: 500au Video questions ! 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ? % Re: 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ? % Re: 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ?  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news  RE: Alpha on ABC Evening news . Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug? Re: bliss install joke :-) Re: bliss install joke :-) Re: bliss install joke :-) DCL minute of the day  Re: DCL minute of the day  Re: DCL minute of the day  Re: DCL minute of the day ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later 9 Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS   Educational     ProgP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     ProgrP RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     ProgrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     ProgrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educational     PrograM Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) M Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) M Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) EdP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) EdP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducational     ProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducational     Program$ RE: Help with VMS alpha installation$ Re: Help with VMS alpha installation3 Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long) 3 Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long) 3 Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long) / Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations  Re: Low cost workstations ? Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ? Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ? Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ? Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? ? Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip? 0 Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silently Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility  Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility  RE: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility  Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility  Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility! privs, name tables, documentation % Re: privs, name tables, documentation % Re: privs, name tables, documentation % Re: privs, name tables, documentation  TCPware SMTP Time Zone test (please ignore)K Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS P Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS   cmP Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd P Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd P Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd P Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get theVMS cmd tP Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to getthe VMS cmd t; Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP? - [ANNOUNCEMENT] OpenSSL 0.9.6a Beta 1 released  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day  Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day - Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock ' Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 08:42:34 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <Jrq0TPndqEpX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <98k56u$fuc$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  > 	Great follow-up.  I appreciate this contrarian view as we see= 	Pfister and know him as a well-respected author and engineer = 	in his own right (I suppose a PhD from MIT should also merit A 	a dollop of respect too).  Thanks for the heads-up on Infiniband @ 	cost or future costs, makes sense.  Food for thought all round!   				Rob    > 8 > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:cWnnu94KwPbZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >  > ...  > G >> There are several problems with all this of course.  Last I checked, F >> the per port cost for switched storage will probably cost more thanG >> the server itself, maybe Infiniband's per port cost is significantly  >> cheaper?  I doubt that. > H > You might want to rethink that doubt.  Intel seems hell-bent on makingD > Infiniband a volume technology (perhaps not desktop-PC-volume, butI > commodity-server-volume), and supposedly plans to make it a motherboard & > component to help get costs in line. > . >   Storage over-IP?  Read Pfister's follow-up >> to that in comp.arch: >> >>N > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pfister+infiniband+group:comp.arch&hl=en&l( > r=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=924890734&ic=1 > J > The observation that IP protocols tend to stress the host processor moreN > than IB will, while correct, decreases in importance at least on the storageM > end, where the host processor really doesn't have all that much else to do. J > And while Greg wasn't optimistic about NIC-level hardware taking up thisM > load, there are already 100 Mb and Gigabit Ethernet cards available that do C > so (and pricing for the 100 Mbit cards was IIRC very reasonable).  >  >>$ >> Infiniband is for the Datacenter. > < > Not in Intel's plans:  they want it on every local server. > " >   Google's solution of course isG >> to have storage local (2 IDE drives internal to the thin-server) but  >> this is a special.  > B > Their application may be a special, but there are a lot of otherN > applications that it could be usefully applied to.  As well as a lot that itM > couldn't, of course.  And doubling their drive density would be easy (e.g., J > 2U server boxes with 9 hot-swap front-loading drives are on the market),M > which also helps alleviate your power concerns (the more drives in the box, N > the less the CPU contributes to the overall load - and in any event a lot ofF > uses don't require that fast a CPU in the box, which drops its power > requirement a lot).  >  > - bill >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2001 00:06:00 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87puflfyc7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ; kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:   E > In article <P39r6.3154$G76.4946545@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry 1 > C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:   B > > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in > > message   C > >> Didn't Sun buy Cray, or at least the rights to the UE10K cache B > >> error box.  It *IS* a Cray design. Which is probably why it's$ > >> such a bad commercial server...  D > > Indeed Sun did purchase the Cray technology that begat the UE10KD > > from SGI (remember them?). I don't think think the rights to, or6 > > the roots of, Cachegate hail from Mendota, though.  F > The lack of parity in Cray designs goes back at least to his days atF > CDC in the early 60s. [The first machine I used in college was a CDC> > 6000, one of his cool early designs. RISC, functional units,C > pipelining, etc were all present in this design, WAY ahead of its C > time.] Any error detection or correction slowed down the machine, F > and his goal was always "full speed ahead". Cost was never a factor, > and reliability rarely was.   E See the early Alpha papers. *Correction* costs time, *detection* need C not. The rule of the CDC 6000s and Cybers with ECS was to never put E any data into it that you'd want to read back! I don't think the 6000 E had any pipelined units, about the only 'modern' idea it didn't have!    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:42:48 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?D Message-ID: <OF160FD160.39828163-ON88256A0E.006143C8@foundation.com>    The naval rank, or the computer?   Shane           B Sharkonwheels <tonym@compusourceDOT.net> on 03/12/2001 06:37:31 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:   1 Subject:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?       ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message 6 news:c3Vq6.12962$5f.3392068@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > D > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message) > news:3AAC1518.B6EDB30D@earthlink.net...  > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > > > > > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message3 > > > news:EwxoEg4fdWff@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > > > H > > I've asked RM to hire me into exactly that position on more than one@ > > occasion. The results, so far, have been less than positive. > 5 > The OpenVMS Group already has a Marketing Director.  >   > He....I wondered if that "Marketing Director" has Commodore on+ his resume.....'bout the same productivity.    Tony tonymATcompusourceDOTnet   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 13:15:57 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <J1xcZ1hTayI2@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <87puflfyc7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:G >> The lack of parity in Cray designs goes back at least to his days at G >> CDC in the early 60s. [The first machine I used in college was a CDC ? >> 6000, one of his cool early designs. RISC, functional units, D >> pipelining, etc were all present in this design, WAY ahead of itsD >> time.] Any error detection or correction slowed down the machine,G >> and his goal was always "full speed ahead". Cost was never a factor,  >> and reliability rarely was. > G > See the early Alpha papers. *Correction* costs time, *detection* need E > not. The rule of the CDC 6000s and Cybers with ECS was to never put G > any data into it that you'd want to read back! I don't think the 6000 G > had any pipelined units, about the only 'modern' idea it didn't have!   H Hmmm, you may be right about that. I thought the Multiply / Divide unitsF might have been pipelined. One other modern feature it did have that IL forgot to list was out of order execution. And a RISC style FORTRAN compilerJ that ripped apart your code and rebuilt it for optimal execution among the functional units.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 13:23:59 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?3 Message-ID: <eMHfuPusutE4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <3aad9c93.175470142@swen.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes:  >>IIRC you can run DECnet out K >>the same port as your PC uses for TCPIP, but if you wnat to run TCPIP you  >>need to use a seperate card. > J > Or disable TCP/IP as an active protocol for Windows on your single card. > J > You can even cluster the commercial version with your other VMS systems, > if you have any.  I There's a version of CHARON-VAX in the works for Alpha VMS. Run Galaxy on E uour VMS box; in one partition run CHARON, and have that run VAX/VMS; > cluster the VAX emulator instance with the rest of the Galaxy!  C Word is that VMS engineering will SUPPORT the CHARON-VAX as a valid L "hardware" environment for VMS. Just the thing for those apps still stuck in VAXland in the 21st century.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:45:59 -0000 1 From: "NewsReader" <NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com> 0 Subject: Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?0 Message-ID: <QUtr6.8$na.430@news.enterprise.net>  J I read the tech .pdfs for Charon & it says for PC memory emulation is 16Mb& max. Surely this is a little limiting?  F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:eMHfuPusutE4@eisner.encompasserve.org... J > In article <3aad9c93.175470142@swen.process.com>, goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) writes: > >>IIRC you can run DECnet out I > >>the same port as your PC uses for TCPIP, but if you wnat to run TCPIP  you   > >>need to use a seperate card. > > L > > Or disable TCP/IP as an active protocol for Windows on your single card. > > L > > You can even cluster the commercial version with your other VMS systems, > > if you have any. > K > There's a version of CHARON-VAX in the works for Alpha VMS. Run Galaxy on G > uour VMS box; in one partition run CHARON, and have that run VAX/VMS; @ > cluster the VAX emulator instance with the rest of the Galaxy! > E > Word is that VMS engineering will SUPPORT the CHARON-VAX as a valid K > "hardware" environment for VMS. Just the thing for those apps still stuck  in > VAXland in the 21st century.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:31:15 GMT 1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au> ( Subject: ...and  COMPAQ wins... by TKO !8 Message-ID: <DNlr6.697$CN.109629@nostril.pacific.net.au>  B 	I've got this short e-mail circulated today and I thought I shareC 	it. There is probably a full, proper news article somewhere, hope- @ 	fully in some major media or trade mag. More than likely you'll? 	find more details on the net as well, finding a URL of it I'll ) 	leave that exercise to the reader... :-)    				Cheers,		Csaba  # 	P.S. : It might be Tru64 though...      /quote starts here     Hi  > More Oracle news - Compaq wins the largest Oracle ApplicationsF implementation in the world!.  Please note the dollars are US, about a trillion dollars Aussie.   Kind Regards  
 Allan Kessler  Account Executive, NSW Health  Compaq Computer Australia     3 > $2.9M Gold Support Win for Canada's Project Gires  > J > The Government of Quebec recently chose Compaq over IBM, HP (teamed withI > HDS) and Sun (teamed with EMC) for Project Gires, the biggest worldwide - > Oracle applications implementation to date.  >  > Customer Need:L > The Quebec Government required the technological infrastructure to supportI > this Oracle applications implementation.  All ministries and government I > agencies will use the Oracle, finance, human resources and iProcurement L > applications.  This will be the biggest worldwide implementation of OracleI > applications with up to 60,000 users, of which 5,500 will be concurrent D > users.  When completed there will be over 110 different government( > organizations involved in the project. > ( > Products, Services, Applications Sold:K > The Compaq solution consisted of:  3 GS320s, 1 GS160, 5 ES40s, 15 DS10Ls, G > 6 DS20s, EMA 12000s for a total of 35 Tbytes of storage, Gold Support 2 > Services for 5 years, Training and Installation. > 
 > Why Compaq: @ > Compaq's bid was the lowest compliant bid, due to the scalableI > architecture, and the capacity to support the number of concurrent user  > requirements.  >  >   I    ----------------------------------------------------------------------XE    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehogME    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush. I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:M   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:17:14 GMTe5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org>e Subject: 500au Video questions/ Message-ID: <3AADF3A8.61385444@childrenshc.org>   I As you all probably know, I've bought for my personal pleasure, a 500au. e   I also have a 500au at work.    A Right now, they're sitting side-by-side under my desk. This makes  comparisons very easy.  G On my work au, I'm running OpenVMS v7.2-1 with almost all ECOs applied.A) (only the last couple not installed yet.)n  A On my home au, I've booted from 7.2-1 CD-ROM and I'm accessing itlF through the serial ports via a null modem cable. Disk drives and BA356 pedestal are on the way.  G I'm looking towards purchasing a monitor for the beast. (I haven't come  up with a good name yet.)n   I have a couple questions.  A First, my work au has a Elsa Gloria Synergy video card in it. But(G "ANAL/SYS> Clue Config" says I have a Powerstorm 4D10T. My Home au alsoME says it has a Powerstorm 4D10T video card. The cards, physically look ; different. The Elsa is a 32bit PCI card. Has a Gold colored D "back-plate." The home au's video card is a 64 bit PCI card, has theF 15pin connector, but also has an RCA plug, and a third plug I couldn't3 identify while I was crawling around under my desk.   E So my question is: What type of card does my home au really have, and > how come VMS thinks I have the Powerstorm 4D10T in my work au.    ?C Second... I'm looking for monitors. I know I could purchase a used,XG Digital branded monitor. But I fear the price may be prohibitive. Can ItE go out and buy a commodity monitor? I saw what looks like a nice flatoD screen 19" (Not LCD, but a flat CRT screen) that looked pretty good.F Will everything work OK with a non-digital monitor? How is the Monitor information accessed/used.....    G If I really and truly need a Digital monitor, that's what I'll buy. Thel. 21" I bought for the work au was $1000, used.   : Advice, experiences, warnings, and tall-tales all welcome.   TIAp   Lyndon     -- t Lyndon F. Bartelso VMS Systems Administratorh Childrens Hospitals and Clinicse lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)o 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:21:22 -0500s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: 500au Video questionsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011221220001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  > In article <3AADF3A8.61385444@childrenshc.org>, Lyndon Bartels' <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> wrote:   nE > Second... I'm looking for monitors. I know I could purchase a used,vI > Digital branded monitor. But I fear the price may be prohibitive. Can IoG > go out and buy a commodity monitor? I saw what looks like a nice flat F > screen 19" (Not LCD, but a flat CRT screen) that looked pretty good.H > Will everything work OK with a non-digital monitor? How is the Monitor! > information accessed/used..... a  E We've used various models of Sony Trinitrons, 17" and 19", with alphayI systems.  These have the 5 BNC connectors, and I think they came with theVF right cable to hook to the alpha.  The monitors are multisync, so theyF work with whatever scan the video board puts out (within reason).  OurC 3D30 adapters have a switch that sets the resolution and scan rate.( >a   -- r Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com"   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 16:51:14 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) " Subject: Re: 500au Video questions0 Message-ID: <98lj62$88p$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  g In article <3AADF3A8.61385444@childrenshc.org>, Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> writes:o  B >First, my work au has a Elsa Gloria Synergy video card in it. ButH >"ANAL/SYS> Clue Config" says I have a Powerstorm 4D10T. My Home au alsoF >says it has a Powerstorm 4D10T video card. The cards, physically look< >different. The Elsa is a 32bit PCI card. Has a Gold coloredE >"back-plate." The home au's video card is a 64 bit PCI card, has the G >15pin connector, but also has an RCA plug, and a third plug I couldn't 4 >identify while I was crawling around under my desk. >aF >So my question is: What type of card does my home au really have, and? >how come VMS thinks I have the Powerstorm 4D10T in my work au.5   Don't know._  D >Second... I'm looking for monitors. I know I could purchase a used,H >Digital branded monitor. But I fear the price may be prohibitive. Can IF >go out and buy a commodity monitor? I saw what looks like a nice flatE >screen 19" (Not LCD, but a flat CRT screen) that looked pretty good. G >Will everything work OK with a non-digital monitor? How is the Monitorw  >information accessed/used.....  >uH >If I really and truly need a Digital monitor, that's what I'll buy. The/ >21" I bought for the work au was $1000, used. o   Any VGA-monitor will do.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannr  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:37:17 GMTv5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> " Subject: Re: 500au Video questions/ Message-ID: <3AAE147C.7F40C92D@childrenshc.org>o   More information:o  H Somebody wrote me questioning the video card in my home au. I powered it8 down and took it apart to get more accurate information.  E The home au has a 32 bit PCI video card. It is in a 64bit PCI slot. IcC didn't look at it very closely the first time I had the case apart. G Digital part number is: SN-PBXGK-AB. It has a RCA plug and an SVID plug   as well as the 15 pin SVGA plug.     -- g Lyndon F. Bartelsa VMS Systems Administratori Childrens Hospitals and Clinicse lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)d 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:38:54 -0500  From: "Kark" <kark@itsww.com>o* Subject: 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ?. Message-ID: <98lgav$rlq@news-central.tiac.net>   Hi,>  N Does anyone think a 9GB StorageWorks disk would be too small to contain the OSM and the paging file for an 8GB memory option?  I'm kind of stuck with the 9GBo3 disk if I want to do RAID1 with a KZPAC controller.d   TIA,   - Ks   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:16:26 GMTw1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>s. Subject: Re: 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ?2 Message-ID: <3AAE5677.BE61E0FB@clarityconnect.com>  G Depending on actual memory utilization this disk would be more than bigd@ enough.  How much paging/swapping do you expect to occur (havingD measured this from your benchmark studies of the application(s) :*)?   Kark wrote:  >  > Hi,- > P > Does anyone think a 9GB StorageWorks disk would be too small to contain the OSO > and the paging file for an 8GB memory option?  I'm kind of stuck with the 9GB85 > disk if I want to do RAID1 with a KZPAC controller.o >  > TIA, >  > - K    --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:56:36 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> . Subject: Re: 9GB System Disk for an 8GB ES40 ?) Message-ID: <3AAE5144.12EE064D@bbc.co.uk>h   Kark wrote:g   > Hi,g >tP > Does anyone think a 9GB StorageWorks disk would be too small to contain the OSO > and the paging file for an 8GB memory option?  I'm kind of stuck with the 9GBr5 > disk if I want to do RAID1 with a KZPAC controller.t >e > TIA,  @ you could always add secondary pagefile(s) on  non-system disks.   >  >l > - Kn   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uko  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofi MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 15:48:18 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news, Message-ID: <98lfg2$1ioj$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3AAD4808.87E75C77@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> |>  P |> Or an actual VT100 in a Star Trek Next Generation Shuttlecraft (in the back).  7 Yes,, but what are they connected to??  VAX or PDP-11??    bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:00:33 -0800c, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news4 Message-ID: <98lju5$2igmk$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>   >:2 > CNN used to be all VT terminals in their studio.  B Those terminals were displaying output from an ULTRIX application. no VMS anywhere near.y   jime   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:22:49 +0000r  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening newsH Message-ID: <OF0184D257.AC804105-ON80256A0E.005F2F4D@qedi.quintiles.com>  : Or DECsystem 20 via a wireless lan and a terminal server ?   Bill Gunshannon wrote/quoted : >>>r |>I |> Or an actual VT100 in a Star Trek Next Generation Shuttlecraft (in the  back).  7 Yes,, but what are they connected to??  VAX or PDP-11??  <<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:50:36 -0700a% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening newsA Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010313104915.00b0e780@ntbsod.psccos.com>0  E Besides that - anybody seen the ad on TV that's been running the lastwH couple of days from BBN (aka "Genuity"), that looks like they cheer whenD they're powering up a system?  That system looks suspiciously like a VAX 11/780 to me.p  8 At 10:22 AM 3/13/2001, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:  ; >Or DECsystem 20 via a wireless lan and a terminal server ?  >  >Bill Gunshannon wrote/quoted :s > >>>o >|> J >|> Or an actual VT100 in a Star Trek Next Generation Shuttlecraft (in the >back).l >n8 >Yes,, but what are they connected to??  VAX or PDP-11?? ><<<   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+lI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |lI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |oI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |0I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:01:46 GMTi4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news; Message-ID: <egtr6.1392$mH4.765889@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>h  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message; news:5.0.2.1.2.20010313104915.00b0e780@ntbsod.psccos.com...-G > Besides that - anybody seen the ad on TV that's been running the lastoJ > couple of days from BBN (aka "Genuity"), that looks like they cheer whenF > they're powering up a system?  That system looks suspiciously like a > VAX 11/780 to me.2 >e  J Yep, noticed the same thing a couple o' nites ago... the cabinet color andG size is right. Someone oughta tape the ad, freeze-frame it, and see for  certain.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:56:18 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>.& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news) Message-ID: <3AAE5F42.CA1BF5B6@bbc.co.uk>    James Gessling wrote:'   > >s4 > > CNN used to be all VT terminals in their studio. >oD > Those terminals were displaying output from an ULTRIX application. > no VMS anywhere near.l >r > jimc  B yeah, the beeb used to have a newsroom system based on Ultrix too,C not for several years, but there is a Open University program aboutt
 journalistD training I caught by accident a while back which shows the Wyse 60's and screenshots of the app.e  E I tried to rescue some of the keyboards but they were in a disgustingo state,D didn't manage to snaflle a muVax either, they dumped those before my time.n     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uko  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofa MedAS or the BBC.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:16:26 -0800n! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comc& Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening newsD Message-ID: <OFF10EF53E.8C8EACE1-ON88256A0E.00641706@foundation.com>  G ....but how sad would that be? I refuse to sit there with a tape in the K machine and my hand on the remote on the offchance an ad comes on, so I canaF check the model of a computer. That would be nerdier than spending theF evening vidcapping that movie where Gillian Anderson gets her kit off,# trying to get the perfect frame....C  	 Oops. ;-)v   Shanen          H "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> on 03/13/2001 10:01:46 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml cc:P  ' Subject:  Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news"      2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message; news:5.0.2.1.2.20010313104915.00b0e780@ntbsod.psccos.com...-G > Besides that - anybody seen the ad on TV that's been running the lastNJ > couple of days from BBN (aka "Genuity"), that looks like they cheer whenF > they're powering up a system?  That system looks suspiciously like a > VAX 11/780 to me.l >d  J Yep, noticed the same thing a couple o' nites ago... the cabinet color andG size is right. Someone oughta tape the ad, freeze-frame it, and see forl certain.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:53:53 -0500e! From: Dan Allen <dallen@nist.gov> & Subject: RE: Alpha on ABC Evening news: Message-ID: <NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAKEIGDFAA.dallen@nist.gov>  L 	Gee, I just said to myself this morning that they surely wouldn't use a VAX. 	would they?  Sure doesn't look like a C30 ;-)   	Dan > -----Original Message-----. > From: Dan O'Reilly [mailto:dano@process.com]( > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:51 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr( > Subject: Re: Alpha on ABC Evening news >  > G > Besides that - anybody seen the ad on TV that's been running the lasteJ > couple of days from BBN (aka "Genuity"), that looks like they cheer whenF > they're powering up a system?  That system looks suspiciously like a > VAX 11/780 to me.n > : > At 10:22 AM 3/13/2001, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote: > = > >Or DECsystem 20 via a wireless lan and a terminal server ?  > >r! > >Bill Gunshannon wrote/quoted :i > > >>>n > >|>pL > >|> Or an actual VT100 in a Star Trek Next Generation Shuttlecraft (in the	 > >back).w > >p: > >Yes,, but what are they connected to??  VAX or PDP-11?? > ><<< >  > ------K > +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+jK > | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |sK > | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | K > | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |iK > | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |iK > +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 11:05:16 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-7 Subject: Re: BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX from ACCVIO, known bug? 3 Message-ID: <KlP6OrHefJ0O@eisner.encompasserve.org>   D More on this, with /since and not /image we get non-zero data in the) ACCVIO, and don't get BACKUP-F-PROCINDEX:   9 $ backup/noalias/record/verify/ignore=(interlock,label) - J    SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000]/since=backup,SYS$SYSDEVICE:[*...]/since=backup -9    mkb100:TUE.BASYS/label=(13MAR1,13MAR2,13MAR3,13MAR4) -:;    /norewind/block_size=16384/nocrc/media_format=compactione; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtualr<   address=000000007AEB0418, PC=00000000000F4908, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000005k1                         Name   = 000000000000000Cs1                                  0000000000000004.1                                  000000007AEB0418a1                                  00000000000F4908a1                                  000000000000001Ba       Register dump:J     R0  = 0000000000000000  R1  = 0000000000057B70  R2  = 0000000000053D58J     R3  = 000000000020A670  R4  = 000000000020B3DC  R5  = 0000000000256E98J     R6  = 0000000000000000  R7  = 000000000020AC4B  R8  = 000000000005A3D0J     R9  = 000000000020A9D0  R10 = 000000007FFAD238  R11 = 000000007FFCE3E0J     R12 = 0000000000000000  R13 = 000000007B014330  R14 = 0000000000000000J     R15 = 000000007B013990  R16 = 0000000000000006  R17 = 000000000020B5DBJ     R18 = 0000000000000003  R19 = 000000000005A3D0  R20 = 0000000000000000J     R21 = 0000000000000000  R22 = 000000000020AC4C  R23 = 000000000020AC34J     R24 = 0000000000000000  R25 = 0000000000000006  R26 = 00000000000AFC8CJ     R27 = 0000000000057B70  R28 = FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF  R29 = 000000007FFA1EE0J     SP  = 000000007AEBA000  PC  = 00000000000F4908  PS  = 000000000000001B  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:52:07 GMT , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch># Subject: Re: bliss install joke :-)e& Message-ID: <3AAE09C7.ADE9BDC6@gmx.ch>   freeware archivum?  9 Does this mean that OpenVMS Eng do not use Bliss anymore?a   D. (it is time for me to learn C?)    Adam Maulis wrote: >  > Hi,5 >  > interesting... > G > get a BLSALPHAN018.A and BLSALPHAN018.B from freeware archivum, ../..1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:08:36 +0200:& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com># Subject: Re: bliss install joke :-)e* Message-ID: <3AAE0DC4.C65C5B19@compaq.com>  
 Have no fear.h  - Bliss is still being used mainly in utilitiesh  	 Guy Peleg> OpenVMS Engineeringd   Didier Morandi wrote:o   > freeware archivum? > ; > Does this mean that OpenVMS Eng do not use Bliss anymore?  >p > D.! > (it is time for me to learn C?)m >i > Adam Maulis wrote: > >s > > Hi,i > >a > > interesting... > >,I > > get a BLSALPHAN018.A and BLSALPHAN018.B from freeware archivum, ../..    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:41:02 +0000.+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>r# Subject: Re: bliss install joke :-)y' Message-ID: <3AAE5BAE.8113F0CA@iee.org>a   Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > freeware archivum? > ; > Does this mean that OpenVMS Eng do not use Bliss anymore?t  ' No it means we all get it for free now.r Same is true of SDL, NMAIL, PANa and a bunch of other goodies.n  + In fact, at one stage I thought the VMS Eng * source code control environment tools were& going to appear on the Freeware CD ...   Antonio    -- a   ---------------.- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgd   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:26:30 GMTc, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: DCL minute of the day& Message-ID: <3AAE1FE5.7D47DBB1@gmx.ch>   ISLKP1_dmo> set verr ISLKP1_dmo> ty A.A $ set"+ ISLKP1_dmo> set watch file/class=(attr,maj)r ISLKP1_dmo> seta _What:  ^Z   ISLKP1_dmo> @A.A $ set K %DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parametersa ISLKP1_dmo> @A.AD $ assign/user sys$command sys$input           ! <<== this line added $ set K %DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameterse ISLKP1_dmo> dir a.awG %XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: Record attributes ISLKV62_TOOLS.DIR;1s (6675,109,0) ../..vG %XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: F64 caching options A.A;2 (9595,49,0) : %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup A.A;2 (9595,49,0) Status: 00000001  ' Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[ISLKV62_TOOLS]d +nD %XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: Record attributes A.A;1 (393,68,0) ../..d9 %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup A.A;1 (393,68,0) Status: 00000001 N A.A;2                                        1/18      13-MAR-2001 14:05:32.93N A.A;1                                        1/18      27-FEB-2001 22:18:47.32   Total of 2 files, 2/36 blocks.  
 Question 1E why does the access to the A.A procedure when @ed didn't trig the XQP 8 (I am not sure this is good English, but you understand)  
 Question 2< why does the SET image not accept the sys$input redirection.  
 Question 33 how can I have DCL ask "_What: " within a procedure-   (the reason for this is below)   ISLKP1_dmo> ty set.com
 $ set = "set"  $ if p1 .eqs. "" $ then& $    assign/user sys$command sys$input $    goto GO $ endif. $ p1 = f$edit(p1,"lowercase")F# $ if p1 .eqs. "dfe" then p1 = "def"  $GO:2 $ set 'p1' 'p2' 'p3' 'p4' 'p5' 'p6' 'p7' 'p8' 'p9' $ exit   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:00:23 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)d" Subject: Re: DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <009F8F2C.E25962F4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <3AAE1FE5.7D47DBB1@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:h >ISLKP1_dmo> set ver >ISLKP1_dmo> ty A.At >$ set, >ISLKP1_dmo> set watch file/class=(attr,maj) >ISLKP1_dmo> set >_What:  ^Z  >ISLKP1_dmo> @A.A  >$ setL >%DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters >ISLKP1_dmo> @A.AKE >$ assign/user sys$command sys$input           ! <<== this line addedu >$ setL >%DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required parameters >ISLKP1_dmo> dir a.aH >%XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: Record attributes ISLKV62_TOOLS.DIR;1
 >(6675,109,0)- >.../..aH >%XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: F64 caching options A.A;2 (9595,49,0); >%XQP, Thread #0, Lookup A.A;2 (9595,49,0) Status: 00000001l >e( >Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[ISLKV62_TOOLS] >+E >%XQP, Thread #0, Read attributes: Record attributes A.A;1 (393,68,0)h >.../..f: >%XQP, Thread #0, Lookup A.A;1 (393,68,0) Status: 00000001O >A.A;2                                        1/18      13-MAR-2001 14:05:32.93-O >A.A;1                                        1/18      27-FEB-2001 22:18:47.32J >o >Total of 2 files, 2/36 blocks.u >c >Question 1sF >why does the access to the A.A procedure when @ed didn't trig the XQP9 >(I am not sure this is good English, but you understand)w >d >Question 2 = >why does the SET image not accept the sys$input redirection.(   Procedure level.     >Question 3m4 >how can I have DCL ask "_What: " within a procedure  & A little demonstration is in order....    & File DCL-MINUTE-OF-THE-CENTURY.COM is:  " $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUT 	.ENTRY	START,0p 	$CMEXEC_S	ROUTIN=ZAPk 	RET
 	.ENTRY	ZAP,0k3 	MOVAB	G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1	; get address of the PPD 7 	MOVL	PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1	; and the adr of CLI own storaget: 	CLRW	PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1)	; zero current DCL process level 	MOVL	#1,R0r 	RET 	.END	STARTM2 $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STB $ RUN $TMP$a $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.*		  $ EXAMINE/WORD ADR $ SET-" $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUT 	.ENTRY	START,0  	$CMEXEC_S	ROUTIN=SETe 	RET
 	.ENTRY	SET,0j3 	MOVAB	G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1	; get address of the PPDD7 	MOVL	PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1	; and the adr of CLI own storageg= 	MOVW	#1,PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1)	; save current DCL process levels
 	MOVL	#1,R0		  	RET 	.END	STARTa2 $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STB $ RUN $TMP$G $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.*		      >1 >(the reason for this is below)  >, >ISLKP1_dmo> ty set.coms >$ set = "set" >$ if p1 .eqs. ""  >$ then ' >$    assign/user sys$command sys$inputV
 >$    goto GOr >$ endif >$ p1 = f$edit(p1,"lowercase")$ >$ if p1 .eqs. "dfe" then p1 = "def" >$GO:y3 >$ set 'p1' 'p2' 'p3' 'p4' 'p5' 'p6' 'p7' 'p8' 'p9'  >$ exit   A If you're playing on a VAX, change the $ LINK statements to read:B  5 $ LINK $TMP$,SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB,SYS$SYSTEM:DCLDEF.STB0   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.7   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:02:21 -0500 - From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>e" Subject: Re: DCL minute of the day4 Message-ID: <Vwrr6.154522$Z2.1938909@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  B "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in2 message news:009F8F2C.E25962F4@SendSpamHere.ORG... >...( > File DCL-MINUTE-OF-THE-CENTURY.COM is: >r$ > $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUT > .ENTRY START,0 > $CMEXEC_S ROUTIN=ZAP > RETD > .ENTRY ZAP,04 > MOVAB G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1 ; get address of the PPD8 > MOVL PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1 ; and the adr of CLI own storage; > CLRW PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1) ; zero current DCL process level$ > MOVL #1,R0 > RETs > .END START4 > $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STB
 > $ RUN $TMP$e > $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.*o > $ EXAMINE/WORD ADR > $ SETS$ > $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUT > .ENTRY START,0 > $CMEXEC_S ROUTIN=SET > RET: > .ENTRY SET,04 > MOVAB G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1 ; get address of the PPD8 > MOVL PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1 ; and the adr of CLI own storage> > MOVW #1,PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1) ; save current DCL process level > MOVL #1,R0 > RET  > .END START4 > $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STB
 > $ RUN $TMP$a > $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.*S >t  @ A minor change; to get this to work add "$DECK" after each MACRO4 command and add "$EOD" after each ".END START" line.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:29:08 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) " Subject: Re: DCL minute of the day0 Message-ID: <009F8F41.A9E0B182@SendSpamHere.ORG>  d In article <Vwrr6.154522$Z2.1938909@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:C >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote ini3 >message news:009F8F2C.E25962F4@SendSpamHere.ORG...2 >>...e) >> File DCL-MINUTE-OF-THE-CENTURY.COM is:s >>% >> $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUTr >> .ENTRY START,0u >> $CMEXEC_S ROUTIN=ZAP  >> RET >> .ENTRY ZAP,0c5 >> MOVAB G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1 ; get address of the PPD(9 >> MOVL PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1 ; and the adr of CLI own storage?< >> CLRW PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1) ; zero current DCL process level
 >> MOVL #1,R0- >> RET
 >> .END START-5 >> $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STB  >> $ RUN $TMP$ >> $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.* >> $ EXAMINE/WORD ADR  >> $ SET% >> $ MACRO/OBJECT=$TMP$.OBJ SYS$INPUTs >> .ENTRY START,0  >> $CMEXEC_S ROUTIN=SETe >> RET >> .ENTRY SET,0t5 >> MOVAB G^CTL$AG_CLIDATA,R1 ; get address of the PPDu9 >> MOVL PPD$L_PRC(R1),R1 ; and the adr of CLI own storage-? >> MOVW #1,PRC_W_PROCLEVEL(R1) ; save current DCL process level 
 >> MOVL #1,R0  >> RET
 >> .END START 5 >> $ LINK/SYSEXE $TMP$,SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:DCLDEF.STBu >> $ RUN $TMP$ >> $ DELETEE $TMP$.*.* >> >DA >A minor change; to get this to work add "$DECK" after each MACRO"5 >command and add "$EOD" after each ".END START" line.0 >1   Works just fine without too. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            fO city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:49:10 +0100 % From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> 0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later. Message-ID: <98kjdl$qjb$1@info.service.rug.nl>  @ "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message =& news:983dhi$2pr2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...F > Of course, another interesting question is, What language is the DECF > Ada compiler written in??  I know what language the real C compilers > are written in.  >=20  F If I remember correctly the first VAX Ada compiler was written in PLI.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:12:59 -0500c- From: John Reagan <reagan@hiyall.zko.dec.com>e0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later2 Message-ID: <3AAE00BB.3AAD0133@hiyall.zko.dec.com>   Fred Zwarts wrote: >  > H > If I remember correctly the first VAX Ada compiler was written in PLI.  @ You remember incorrectly.  Its in BLISS (and perhaps some Ada). H However, VAX Ada does use the VCG and parts of that are indeed in PLI so we can both be right. :-)i   -- l John ReaganI Compaq Pascal Project Leader   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 11:10:00 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oB Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <46iyQKoGk80R@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  Y In article <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:: > . > However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway.  2 I've never seen a UNIX that could go that far.  8)  B Assuming you meant 1970, it's also in the C RTL, C++ RTL, and Java> environment, whether you're on UNIX or not (yeah, I know, sameF heritage).  But the Java classes actually can handle earlier than 1970 as well as later than 2038.g  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationn= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingn   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 18:03:15 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS   Educational     Progo3 Message-ID: <98lnd3$pp6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>e  , In article <3AAE5EA9.311BD545@infopuls.com>,, 	Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Brian Wheeler wrote: >> n, >> In article <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>,: >>         Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: >> > >> > >> > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:t >> >1 >> >> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:a >> >>1K >> >> > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in T >> >> > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.@ >> >> > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code? >> >>dN >> >> The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited toP >> >> 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculationsM >> >> of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000 R >> >> years). However, all other time-related system services were also restrictedS >> >> to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeoN >> >> format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change? >> >> actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it.  >> >>O >> >>         Jana >> >1 >> > However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway.s >> > >> e >> <sarcasm>G >>         Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as ah >> base for delta time!c
 >> </sarcasm>Y >> b6 >> Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid? >>  O >> Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is pointless.  If-M >> Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS, what's the harm? M >> How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower its quality?    > 0 > This depends where it is implemented and what.g > If it's in the kernel then it makes things more complicated and will reduce quality in many respects.  > If the UNIX API requires functionality which is in contradiction to VMS system services the view of the system might be inconsistent.   M Granted, but since nobody knows how its going to be implemented, then there'sUL no way one can argue that adding unix apis will bring the quality of the VMS kernel down.   >  >> IfhM >> it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on VMS.  AddingeJ >> interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only strengthen it.  DidJ >> adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did the TCP/IP. >> libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality? > e > Libraries and tools are not part of the kernel. I wonder what your experience in OS development is.s  I Again, we don't know how the Unix API would be added to VMS, so it may be0G a tools/libraries issue and not touch the kernel at all.  Ok, that is a.' bit unlikely, but still, a possibility.0  N I was arguing from the point that there seems to be an overriding feeling that= anything related to unix is unclean and must not be near VMS.      > M >> There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If compaq wants to Q >> expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a good implementation0L >> of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being chosen.  OnceL >> developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more likely to startM >> writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared to now where ' >> a port is nearly a complete rewrite.0 > G > Is it that difficult to understand that we don't need another UNIX???   E That's fine...except that unless VMS conforms to something other thanBJ itself, vendors are not going to bother porting software to it because itsF not important (or: profitable) to justify a complete rewrite to make a VMS application.    z > Think about Apple. Would Steve Jobs argue that Apple should drop their superior API, UI and so on for UNIX or Windoze??   K Have you seen Mac OS X?  It is _BSD_ with Apple specific APIs built on top.0G It is another unix.  You can run unix apps and mac apps...so if someone-F want to run an open source database it doesn't take months to make it " compile (let alone work correctly)     >Who would like to have another Windoze instead of a Mac? There are other much more efficient and technically much better solutions to the "VMS problem" (how some of this NG would phrase the lack of a few desktop and a few enterprise apps).    I What is that solution?  Compaq (and Digital's) Marketing always seemed tooH be focused on preaching to the choir, but that doesn't help.  OutrageousF costs for OS licenses doesn't help.  No entry-level-priced machines to! seed the market isn't helping....a   BrianH   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 16:08:45 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     ProgrD3 Message-ID: <98lgmd$p4j$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>   ) In article <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>,h0 	Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: >  >  > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > . >> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: >>H >> > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted inQ >> > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.A= >> > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code?- >>K >> The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited torM >> 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculations3J >> of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000O >> years). However, all other time-related system services were also restrictednP >> to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeK >> format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this changeo< >> actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it. >> >>         Jan > . > However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway. >   	 <sarcasm>.= 	Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as a1 base for delta time!
 </sarcasm>  3 Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid?d  L Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is pointless.  IfJ Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS, what's the harm?L How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower its quality?  IfJ it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on VMS.  AddingG interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only strengthen it.  DidSG adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did the TCP/IP1+ libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality?t  K There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If compaq wants to #N expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a good implementationJ of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being chosen.  Once I developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more likely to start6J writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared to now where$ a port is nearly a complete rewrite.  
 Brian Wheeler- bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:22:57 -0600.+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>iY Subject: RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     ProgreL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD545C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----: > From: bdwheele@indiana.edu [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu]     > <sarcasm> ? > 	Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as a  > base for delta time! > </sarcasm>  5 > Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid?i   Good question.  I think so."  @ > Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is  > pointless.  If  J Yeah, VMS people should pick on somebody who has a chance of proving their! system is better.  NSK, maybe. :)S  < > Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS,  > what's the harm?  L I believe the argument is that it's completely impossible to write good codeG in C, so adding any more of it to VMS would weaken the OS.  Nobody willt4 state it that way, but that's what it boils down to.  > > How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower  > its quality?  If@ > it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on  > VMS.  Adding6 > interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only  > strengthen it.  Didn? > adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did u  $ You might get some "yes"-es on that.   > the TCP/IP- > libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality?s  = > There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If   > compaq wants to = > expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a A > good implementation0> > of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being  > chosen.  Once   K Also consider that even windows has tried to implement the Unix API. "Shhh!o  We think we're POSIX compliant."  < > developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more  > likely to start9@ > writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared  > to now where& > a port is nearly a complete rewrite.  H Even if not, they're relatively likely to write code the same way the doC now, and if that will work on VMS, then at least you don't have thea non-existent software problem.   Regards,   Chrisc  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerr Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");n '    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 18:09:54 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  Educational     Progr 3 Message-ID: <98lnpi$pp6$2@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>   L In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD545C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,. 	Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: >> -----Original Message----- ; >> From: bdwheele@indiana.edu [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu]E >  >  >> <sarcasm>@ >> 	Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as a >> base for delta time!C
 >> </sarcasm>1 > 6 >> Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid? >  > Good question.  I think so.P > A >> Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is R >> pointless.  If  > L > Yeah, VMS people should pick on somebody who has a chance of proving their# > system is better.  NSK, maybe. :)s > = >> Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS, q >> what's the harm?  > N > I believe the argument is that it's completely impossible to write good codeI > in C, so adding any more of it to VMS would weaken the OS.  Nobody will'6 > state it that way, but that's what it boils down to.  F Yeah, that's the sentiment I've been seeing, and its the same one thatF says that Perl is evil because people can write ugly programs with it.  G People:  C is a tool, not a religion.  It is a language...and like realiB languages you can write good pieces and utter trash...that doesn't vindicate or condemn it.   > ? >> How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower t >> its quality?  IfvA >> it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on r >> VMS.  Adding97 >> interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only s >> strengthen it.  Did@ >> adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did  > & > You might get some "yes"-es on that.   :)     > 
 >> the TCP/IPS. >> libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality? > > >> There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If  >> compaq wants to P> >> expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a  >> good implementation? >> of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being I >> chosen.  Once $ > M > Also consider that even windows has tried to implement the Unix API. "Shhh!D" > We think we're POSIX compliant." > = >> developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more   >> likely to startA >> writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared R >> to now whered' >> a port is nearly a complete rewrite.C > J > Even if not, they're relatively likely to write code the same way the doE > now, and if that will work on VMS, then at least you don't have the   > non-existent software problem.   Bingo!   Briani   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 15:29:10 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educational     PrograjH Message-ID: <y4k85tu4i1.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:n  F > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in N > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.: > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code?  I The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited to RJ 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculationsG of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000dL years). However, all other time-related system services were also restrictedM to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeSH format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change9 actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it.Y   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:10:41 +0000>) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> V Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram), Message-ID: <3AADE411.49932EFC@infopuls.com>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > - > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:_ > K > > I wrote this because I suspect like some other posters that introducinggJ > > something like UNIX compatibility will reduce the quality of VMS if it2 > > is implemented in the kernel and not as layer. > I > Why should that be a problem? THere is a defined interface with definedXF > semantics - otherwise, interoperability and portability is a uselessJ > exercise. Given that, the quality of implementation underneath the hood,8 > or veneer defined by the API, is an orthogonal matter. > N > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in relaxationA > of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.l > 
 >         Jane  @ There are two problems if UNIX is implemented in the VMS kernel:6 1.Incompatibility with the requirements of the VMS APIW 2.Complexity in the kernel i.e. the problem of introducing bugs that are harder to find    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:11:37 +0000s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>-V Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram), Message-ID: <3AADE449.406C8946@infopuls.com>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > - > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:t > K > > I wrote this because I suspect like some other posters that introducingnJ > > something like UNIX compatibility will reduce the quality of VMS if it2 > > is implemented in the kernel and not as layer. > I > Why should that be a problem? THere is a defined interface with definedqF > semantics - otherwise, interoperability and portability is a uselessJ > exercise. Given that, the quality of implementation underneath the hood,8 > or veneer defined by the API, is an orthogonal matter. > N > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in relaxationA > of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.  > 
 >         JanN  8 What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:12:59 +0000,  From: steven.reece@quintiles.comV Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram)H Message-ID: <OFF8A3AE9E.52B70B17-ON80256A0E.00637600@qedi.quintiles.com>   Brian Wheeler commented: >>>-I Again, we don't know how the Unix API would be added to VMS, so it may beiG a tools/libraries issue and not touch the kernel at all.  Ok, that is ai' bit unlikely, but still, a possibility.   I I was arguing from the point that there seems to be an overriding feelinga that= anything related to unix is unclean and must not be near VMS.e <<<uK I think it is unlikely, given that part of the effort was (I thought) goinglF in to incorporating Unix-like calls to the file system and other areasH _into_ the kernel so that they are not just interpreted, translated intoI VMS-like calls and processed by the kernel in a "VMS-mode".  This removes8A one layer (maybe more) from the processing and hopefully providesi4 performance benefits when compared to other options.  , Later in  the same message Brian commented :I >>>What is that solution?  Compaq (and Digital's) Marketing always seemed  toH be focused on preaching to the choir, but that doesn't help.  OutrageousF costs for OS licenses doesn't help.  No entry-level-priced machines to$ seed the market isn't helping....<<<  J But is "preaching to the choir" all bad?  We've had at least one person inK recent days commenting on how his site is now going very much away from VMSfE and it's a thread that has been running for some time in comp.os.vms. C Preaching to the choir may not be everything, but marketing to yours@ installed base may help to stop the attrition which is positive.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:59:49 -0800d! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comeY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) EdaD Message-ID: <OF09C3AB29.DFEC57D4-ON88256A0E.0062BCBA@foundation.com>  1 19970? I don't think Unix will last that long....l   Shaned          A Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> on 03/13/2001 06:37:58 AM>  ) Please respond to tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uks   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms cc:U  C Subject:  Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSi/       Educational Program) Educational Program)a         Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  - > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:s >aG > > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted in F > > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system	 services. < > > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code? >cJ > The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited to? > 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful forl calculationsI > of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000 C > years). However, all other time-related system services were alsos
 restrictedJ > to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeJ > format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change; > actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it.o > 
 >         Jan   , However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway.     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:12:02 -0800t! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.combY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) EdwD Message-ID: <OF6C22F87B.E71B41C8-ON88256A0E.006371E1@foundation.com>  H There's little point speculating on how VMS engineering may be doing theF COE stuff, but we do know their culture of backwards compatability andG extremely high quality. We've also been told that "this time it's beingnC done right", I think I remember who said it but I'd rather not riskr misattributing it.  I Frankly, if anyone can add the interfaces and features withut screwing upfK what's good about VMS, my money's on VMS engineering. I'm inclined to trustr= them, providing the pointy haired ones don't tie their hands.o   Shanen          = Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 03/13/2001 09:53:45 AMo   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comu cc:e  C Subject:  Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSo/       Educational Program) Educational Program)I     Brian Wheeler wrote: >c+ > In article <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>,u9 >         Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:u > >o > >o > > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >t0 > >> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >>J > >> > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted inI > >> > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system"	 services.o? > >> > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code?r > >>J > >> The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited toB > >> 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculationsF > >> of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000mF > >> years). However, all other time-related system services were also
 restrictedG > >> to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used theR
 delta timeF > >> format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change> > >> actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it. > >> > >>         Jan > >m0 > > However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway. > >  >  > <sarcasm>rF >         Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as a > base for delta time! > </sarcasm> > 5 > Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid?f >rJ > Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is pointless. IfF > Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS, what's the harm?eJ > How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower its quality?  . This depends where it is implemented and what.K If it's in the kernel then it makes things more complicated and will reducev quality in many respects.sG If the UNIX API requires functionality which is in contradiction to VMSo= system services the view of the system might be inconsistent.u   > IfD > it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on VMS. AddingI > interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only strengthen it.  DidNI > adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did the TCP/IPl- > libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality?d  B Libraries and tools are not part of the kernel. I wonder what your  experience in OS development is.  I > There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If compaq wants  toA > expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a goodn implementationK > of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being chosen.  Once.K > developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more likely to startiF > writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared to now wherei& > a port is nearly a complete rewrite.  E Is it that difficult to understand that we don't need another UNIX???eF Think about Apple. Would Steve Jobs argue that Apple should drop theirG superior API, UI and so on for UNIX or Windoze?? Who would like to have.I another Windoze instead of a Mac? There are other much more efficient and K technically much better solutions to the "VMS problem" (how some of this NGwB would phrase the lack of a few desktop and a few enterprise apps).   > Brian Wheeler. > bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:37:58 +00001- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>tY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducational     Programo) Message-ID: <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>1   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  - > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes:- >-G > > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted inaP > > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.< > > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code? >lJ > The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited toL > 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculationsI > of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000tN > years). However, all other time-related system services were also restrictedO > to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeiJ > format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change; > actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it.o > 
 >         Jano  , However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway.     --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukn  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of  MedAS or the BBC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:53:45 +0000r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>sY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducational     Program , Message-ID: <3AAE5EA9.311BD545@infopuls.com>   Brian Wheeler wrote: > + > In article <3AAE30C5.20D69B88@bbc.co.uk>, 9 >         Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:  > >p > >t > > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >w0 > >> Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > >>J > >> > > BTW, in at least one case the use of Unixy C code has resulted inS > >> > > relaxation of a not-so-useful restriction in a set of VMS system services.t? > >> > What was this relaxation? Didn't it break existing code?e > >>M > >> The output format of $ASCTIM for delta times is defined to be limited to O > >> 10000 days minus a tick; the binary format itself, useful for calculationsPL > >> of all sorts, is of course not so restricted (the limit is around 32000Q > >> years). However, all other time-related system services were also restricted-R > >> to that 10000 day limit. This broke when the audit server used the delta timeM > >> format to compute a time_t - 10000 days after 1-JAN-1970. So this change > > >> actually made existing code work, instead of breaking it. > >> > >>         Jan > >10 > > However, 1-JAN-19970 is a unix thing anyway. > >s >  > <sarcasm>iF >         Yeah, nobody but a unix loser would ever use 1-JAN-1970 as a > base for delta time! > </sarcasm> > 5 > Isn't this whole topic getting a little bit stupid?o > N > Its been a constant Unix vs VMS war which, as we all know, is pointless.  IfL > Compaq decides to add more unix interfaces on top of VMS, what's the harm?L > How does adding an interface dumb down the system, or lower its quality?    . This depends where it is implemented and what.e If it's in the kernel then it makes things more complicated and will reduce quality in many respects.C If the UNIX API requires functionality which is in contradiction to VMS system services the view of the system might be inconsistent.i   > IfL > it is buggy, its not unix's fault...but the implementation on VMS.  AddingI > interfaces to an OS doesn't weaken it...it can only strengthen it.  Did I > adding a C compiler to VMS lower the quality of the OS?  Did the TCP/IPa- > libaries from Tru64 unix lower the quality?g  c Libraries and tools are not part of the kernel. I wonder what your experience in OS development is.a  L > There are two major APIs out there:  Unix and Windows.  If compaq wants toP > expand VMS's marketshare, it is going to have to provide a good implementationK > of one of those two...and I don't see the Windows API being chosen.  OncetK > developers see VMS as "just another target", they're more likely to start L > writing pieces of code which take advantage of VMS...compared to now where& > a port is nearly a complete rewrite.  E Is it that difficult to understand that we don't need another UNIX???ugThink about Apple. Would Steve Jobs argue that Apple should drop their superior API, UI and so on for UNIX or Windoze?? Who would like to have another Windoze instead of a Mac? There are other much more efficient and technically much better solutions to the "VMS problem" (how some of this NG would phrase the lack of a few desktop and a few enterprise apps).    > Brian Wheelert > bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:17:27 -0600>* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>- Subject: RE: Help with VMS alpha installation - Message-ID: <0033000018525212000002L022*@MHS>i  H =0AIf you're in the Raleigh/Durham/Peoples' Republic of Chapel Hill are= a,? I'd be glad to let you borrow an external CD-ROM drive, Robert.t   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET-' > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:18 AM 8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ > Subject: Help with VMS alpha installation  >h >I > Hello friends, >O; > I'm in the process of putting a fresh installation of VMSa > alpha 7.1-2 onto6 > a DEC 3000-300 system.  This system has no CD drive. >m7 > The system is already configured as a satellite in ani > existing cluster, soF > I have access to all the cluster resources, including MSCP-served CD	 > drives.  >h6 > With the system booted as a satellite, I ran the VMS > installation as follows: >f8 > @disk$alpha0712:[vms$common.sysexe]axpvms$pcsi_install >sH > ... as suggested in the installation manual, except I specified the C= Do > drive instead of SYS$SYSTEM. >i? > This installation worked fine, but I realized part way thoughm > that all the3 > source files were taken from the running system'sh > SYS$SYSDEVICE, not the: > CD.  (The disk was busy, the CD was not.)  Examining the > installation COM? > file confirms that it uses SYS$SYSDEVICE as the source.  If It
 > booted from-H > the CD, it would be the source, but I booted from the running system.=   >hH > I ended up with VMS 7.1-2 installed on the new disk, and nothing else= :l >n > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com3 >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:14:57 -0500<2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)- Subject: Re: Help with VMS alpha installationnL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011214580001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  : In article <0033000018525212000002L022*@MHS>, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:  J > =0AIf you're in the Raleigh/Durham/Peoples' Republic of Chapel Hill are= > a,A > I'd be glad to let you borrow an external CD-ROM drive, Robert.l  7 Thanks.  People's Republic of Long Island, NY actually.i  J I can get an external CD drive from closer than NC.  I just have to removeF it from one system, find the right cables, and hook it up.  I probablyD should have done this from the start, but "installing from a running system" sounded easier. Not!  C At this point, folks have suggested 2 or 3 right ways to attack the  problem, so I should be ok.i   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:14:15 +0000 - From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>s< Subject: Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long)) Message-ID: <3AAE0F17.467FA496@bbc.co.uk>    Robert Deininger wrote:9  L >  4.  I can scrounge a CD drive for the DEC 3000-300, but it may be a pain.B > Is there a proper way to boot the installation CD remotely?  TheK > installation guide says an infoserver can be used, and we have one in thecI > basement, but I've never configured it.  Can I use some sort of clustere > satellite boot from the CD?p  M Robert, if you have an infoserver you can install VMS over the net from that.r  --b6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:36:07 GMTa8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long)0 Message-ID: <rfqr6.58$G_1.3420@news.cpqcorp.net>   In article <rdeininger-1303010137450001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:0 >Hello friends,u >iK >I'm in the process of putting a fresh installation of VMS alpha 7.1-2 onto 5 >a DEC 3000-300 system.  This system has no CD drive.r  F Installation of OpenVMS Alpha on a system that cannot be booted from a= CD-ROM is not supported -- as you have found out.  However...   B If you have TWO disks on your system, boot it into the cluster andC then BACKUP/IMAGE the OpenVMS Alpha operating system CD-ROM to one yD of the disks.  Then boot that disk and install OpenVMS on the other.  G OR... Install OpenVMS ALpha on one of the other systems in the cluster. I Then backup/image that system disk to the real target system and boot it.p  ; Or... devise your own variation on one of the above themes.e  B If this is more than a on-time "experiment", you would probably beB well advised to install a CD or an extra disk on the Alpha system.   -- iK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAlH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:43:53 -0500t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)< Subject: Re: Help with VMS alpha installation (kind of long)L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011143530001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  0 In article <rfqr6.58$G_1.3420@news.cpqcorp.net>,' hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net wrote:a   > In articleA <rdeininger-1303010137450001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>,-4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > >Hello friends,e > >eM > >I'm in the process of putting a fresh installation of VMS alpha 7.1-2 ontol7 > >a DEC 3000-300 system.  This system has no CD drive.. > H > Installation of OpenVMS Alpha on a system that cannot be booted from a? > CD-ROM is not supported -- as you have found out.  However...0 > D > If you have TWO disks on your system, boot it into the cluster andE > then BACKUP/IMAGE the OpenVMS Alpha operating system CD-ROM to one  F > of the disks.  Then boot that disk and install OpenVMS on the other.  J Yes, this looks like the way to go.  We have extra disks.  This looks like4 the proper use of "install VMS from running system".  I > OR... Install OpenVMS ALpha on one of the other systems in the cluster.eK > Then backup/image that system disk to the real target system and boot it.i  H Ok.  This would have been my next try, though putting the spare disks onI an existing system would have meant some down time, so I was avoiding it.m  = > Or... devise your own variation on one of the above themes.e  < Well, the last variation I devised was less than harmonious.   > D > If this is more than a on-time "experiment", you would probably beD > well advised to install a CD or an extra disk on the Alpha system.  G It's a real-work system that will go off and start it's own cluster.  IeI just didn't want to cold-boot the whole configuration, when I have a nice F cluster set up that can be replicated and tweeked.  Especially with no local CD-drive.f   Thanks for the pointers.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:43:23 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e8 Subject: Re: In-memory layout of PACKED ARRAY OF BOOLEAN, Message-ID: <3AADEBBB.A42F4325@infopuls.com>   John Reagan wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:: > >D > > Thank *you*. >  > You're welcome.R >  > >S > > A specific question about code generation on Alpha depending on the front-end. As you pointed out the language has some influence on the possibility to supply information to the code generation.> > With C it is possible to declare a procedure having a variable number of parameters. On some architectures I know of the consequence was to let the caller remove the pushed parameters. This was called the C calling convention whereas with Pascal the number of parameters of a procedure was always fixed, hence known to the compiler and the code for popping the parameters off the stack was located in the callee (the called procedure) which resulted in smaller programs on average.0r > > Is is possible to tell GEM how to treat the parameter pushing/popping wrt the location where it should happen?S > > Simpler question: where is the parameter popping done in Pascal and where in C?  > I > Larry mentioned the [LIST] attribute which is Compaq Pascal's extensionyD > to provide variable length argument lists.  Its almost "..." in C. > F > In general, during a the execution of a routine, there is no need toH > "pop" the parameters.  The first six appear in R16-R21 (well, floatingE > passed by immediate will be found in the parallel floating register F > F16-F21) with the remainder on the stack.  The called routine simplyH > accesses the parameters as needed.  However, in some cases, we have toG > "home" the arguments.  For example, if you took the address of one of H > the arguments and then stepped through the argument list via pointers,@ > the compiler will make a copy of all the arguments in a single7 > contiguous block, but I wouldn't call that "popping".  > I > As for adjusting the stack for the passed in parameters...  That is the C > job for the calling routine.  The called routine doesn't do that.  > G > All of this is specified in the calling standard (see 3.7.5.2 for the  > exit sequence).  >  > --
 > John Reagan9 > Compaq Pascal Project Leader  Thanks. The last sentences were exactly the answer I was looking for. If this is fixed by the calling standard it doesn't allow the old Pascal way of letting the called routine adjusting  the stack pointer which to my memory results in a little bit smaller code on average.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:10:30 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010210300001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>  G In article <98j75j$bf6$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:I    B > Nope, as has been stated here on numerous occaisions by numerousD > people, it is totally unusable for that unless you want to be veryB > liberal with the interpretation of the agreement you make.  SomeE > of us believe it means what it says and are not willing to risk it..@ > If I show it to our University Lawyer, she will take the most = > conserevative interpretation for obvious liability reasons.d >  > |> e: > |> 1. College registers in program and gets access code. > 8 > There is no where I saw for the "college" to register.# > Registrations are to individuals.m  
 From the FAQ: %    http://www.openvmsedu.com/faq.htmlo  J "An administrator at the school requests an access code over the web. OnceJ a school is registered, then anyone at the school can use that access code% to get license PAKs emailed to them."r >  > |> n@ > |> 2. Each student in the class uses the code to get licences. > ? > Each student would have to agree to the terms of the license.tA > I would not be allowed to require this nor could it be enforced. > at my level.  E Yes, but if the students violate the terms, it't there liability, not I yours.  You don't police them to keep them from copying m$ word, but theyr' might be doing it under your very nose.h  C > |> 3. Instructor load's all the students' licences on the system.w > D > I believe that this is expressly forbidden as you need to have oneB > license (and one user) at a time.  It's the way and others have C > interpreted it and it is realtively safe it is the way our lawyert3 > would also interpret it. (remember, conservative)M   From the license terms:R)    http://www.openvmsedu.com/t-and-c.html-  H "However, the Software may be copied and used on multiple computers thatC are under your control in a classroom environment, including use bysC multiple students who have agreed to these License Terms solely for- instructional purposes."  F I haven't tried this, so I don't know if the licences in question will- actually load multiple copies on one machine.S  I Yes, it's very screwed up.  I'm just a little skeptical that it's TOTALLYt screwed up.m   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:12:40 -0500,2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303010212400001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <98j7i2$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu wrote:    > > >2. Each student in the class uses the code to get licences. > K > The students shun your course because you are obviously insane.  Then therL > college fires your crazy butt for even considering setting up a class thatK > requires the students to obtain an operating system license just so that  8 > they can use it on a machine owned by the university.   J Apply the same standard to other software.  Don't any of the students haveG to use software that requires them to read (skip) legal boilerplate and J click the "I agree" button when they install it?  Do they shun the courses! that make them use this software?    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comD   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 15:56:59 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98lg0b$k7t@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   In article <rdeininger-1303010212400001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:vK >In article <98j7i2$b19@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu> >wrote:e >t > ? >> >2. Each student in the class uses the code to get licences.  >> 0L >> The students shun your course because you are obviously insane.  Then theM >> college fires your crazy butt for even considering setting up a class thatyL >> requires the students to obtain an operating system license just so that 9 >> they can use it on a machine owned by the university. v >uK >Apply the same standard to other software.  Don't any of the students have1H >to use software that requires them to read (skip) legal boilerplate and1 >click the "I agree" button when they install it?e  K No.  I do not let users install software on the PCs.  Doing otherwise is a  ) pretty good formula for screwing up a PC.N   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu'? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech aJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 16:06:19 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)c" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98lghr$1ioj$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <3AAD8757.EBBE0B89@earthlink.net>,h:  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes: |> uM |> > Sorry, I don't run the data center.  My VMS machines are as stable as mysO |> > Unix systems.  The data center VMS machines are run by people with as muchwN |> > VMS experience as I have Unix.  They don't confide in me why they have to |> > reboot periodically.  |>  K |> Possibly part of a pre-defined plan - to ensure that the system *CAN* besK |> rebooted, and has not been rendered unbootable by a corrupted boot blockt= |> or other problem. Commendable and recommendable, where note |> inappropriate, IMO.  E And yet, if I say that I reboot my Unix servers once a week (I don't,cA the annual reboot is coming up in a month when they shut down theeD power campus wide!) we hear about unreliable systems that won't stay up.e   |> w9 |> > Or why they have to make the machine unavailable fortN |> > 12 hours or more for backups (which is no differnt than being down as you |> > can't use it.)u |> tC |> Because it's the only way to do a truly "clean" backup, or fullyz' |> defragment the disks, even with DFO.e  B But other VMS admins must not agree as 100% uptime is considered aE requirement.  Not meaning to sound confrontational, but can't you seep the double standard here??       bill   -- pJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   3   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 16:34:42 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)g" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98li72$1k40$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <rdeininger-1303010159480001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:IJ |> In article <98j1kb$90v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote: |> h |> >  G |> > In a perfect world, maybe, but not in this one.  There are no freeoL |> > educational VMS licenses that are usable in an educational environment. |>  K |> For classroom use, the edu program _appears_ to be usable, though otherst |> are wary of the legalese.  H The university won't risk the hassle and I won't risk my job.  When (if)H Compaq decides to legally clarify this situation, that would be one lessI roadblock.  But they have chosen to remain silent up to this point.  ThatsG tells most of us that they meant exactly what they said in the originalv license.   |> S |> .P |> > I can buy a brand new P3 with a warranty and everything for ~$700.  I can'tJ |> > imagine getting a functional Alpha capable of running VMS for that.   |> tI |> You can _easily_ get a functional alpha workstation with a monitor foriH |> $250 to $300, complete.  It won't be a recent model.  It won't have a( |> warranty, but will be well broken in.  J Do you honestly think that the beancounters see it that way??  You can buyH old junk or you can buy new equipment.  One has a warranty and the otherH can't be repaired for less than full replacement cost.  This isn't goingM into my basement, it's going into what constitutes the offices of a business.R     |> n |> ) |> > And oneR |> > box does not make a lab.  And if the lab is full of PeeCees, why would anyoneP |> > using it bother to log into a remote Alpha when all the tools they need are! |> > right there on the desktop??r |>  4 |> I thought the point was to learn something new...  J And how precisely does having an Alpha with no tools offer a better chanceM of doing that than a PC with Win2000 with all the available common packages?? I Everything the student does is learning, but they need to tools to do it.eG What would you have them writting their thesis with?? LSE in a DECTerm?    |>  M |> > Nobody is going to opt for a character cell user interface while sittingaF |> > in front of a Windowed GUI.  Another reason not to use the Alpha. |>  K |> DECwindows isn't character cell.  It's not as flashy as the newer stuff,s9 |> but you can mickey-clicky until your finger falls off.1  G See above.  What DECWindows program are they going to use to type their K thesis??  How about UML tools??  Is there an equivalent to Visio?? RationalAL Rose??  Is there even an equivalent to Netscape??  Work needs to be done andE done in a timely fashion.  A lot gets covered each semester.  WithoutpK reasonable productivity tools, the boxes would merely occupy valuable spaceyJ and never see any use.  getting VMS back into academia is not as simple as@ buying some used  Alphas and setting them up in a lab somewhere.   |> oK |> I hope these students have some willingness to learn new things, off then |> beaten path.   G The students learn what they are taught.  Everything they learn is new.CF But a decision has to be made as to what is valuable to learn and whatG is not.  Right now, there is no percieved value in teaching or learningoI VMS.  Those with a vested interest in VMS are the only ones with a reason-K to want this to change.  Our graduates all leave here to either gred schoolpJ or very lucrative positions in the computing world.  And they do this with- no expossure to VMS.  Who's problem is this??p  rD |>              If they won't venture beyond a Wintel GUI, the whole' |> adventure is dead before it begins. m  C Windows is a tool.  It gets the job done.  Give them an alternative B that also gets the job done and they would probably be willing to C give it an equal chance.  But, right now, they are not equally ableM to do the tasks needed.c  oF |>                                     If that's the case, cost of VMSM |> doesn't matter -- they've excluded it without trying.  I hope I never haved# |> to hire such broad-minded folks.   K First, the students don't decide what they use.  They use what is provided.lH (Well maybe they decide to a small extent by either coming here or not.)J There is no percieved value to using VMS right now.  There is no incentiveL for people on this side of the fence to cahnge that.  How about on your side of the fence??  I You hire them every day.  I would bet that less than 10% of CS grads havedI any experience with VMS at all and I would bet the number is closer to 1% , that have any significant experince with it.   |> c |>  O |> > Good, so then when this same discussion comes around again in 6 months you M |> > too will be able to see how as good an idea as everyone agrees it is, it-% |> > never seems to go anywhere.  :-(, |> aM |> Since I'm not on a university campus myself, I can't do anything directly.j  E Sure you can. You can try to convince Compaq that serious support foreE education is important and worth their attention.  You can try to getcD enough businesses who share this vision together to work on possibleE solutions.  If Compaq won't take the initiative those who rely on the.E continued existence of VMS may have to.  One thing is certain, peoplewE like me don't occupy high enough positions in academia to do anythingeD from this side.  A total lack of VMS in our labs does not affect the3 bottom line, so there is no incentive to change it.p   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:57:22 -0500e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011157220001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <98lghr$1ioj$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:  ; > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.net> writes:o > |> e; > |> > Or why they have to make the machine unavailable fortP > |> > 12 hours or more for backups (which is no differnt than being down as you > |> > can't use it.)n > |>  E > |> Because it's the only way to do a truly "clean" backup, or fullyh) > |> defragment the disks, even with DFO.o > D > But other VMS admins must not agree as 100% uptime is considered aG > requirement.  Not meaning to sound confrontational, but can't you seel > the double standard here??   e  J Requirements vary by site, obviously.  Some require 100% uptime, and thoseF sites will adopt strategies that allow faster backups.  I know this isE possible in VMS, and I suppose it is in many unixes as well.  David'siG standard + someone else's standard doesn't make a "double standard", ite makes two different standards.  G BTW, I disagree with David about defragmenting.  Off-line defragging isuE required to defrag the index file, and perhaps any files that you canoI never close in normal operations.  But this should be a one-time cure foruI a historically mismanaged disk.  If this is an ongoing problem, it pointsnH to a management gap.  A site where uptime is important shouldn't operate	 this way.    -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 09:27:26 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)c" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <oSMr$aLEY+l4@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  M In article <rdeininger-1303010210300001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>,  8     rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > J > "However, the Software may be copied and used on multiple computers thatE > are under your control in a classroom environment, including use by E > multiple students who have agreed to these License Terms solely for  > instructional purposes." > H > I haven't tried this, so I don't know if the licences in question will/ > actually load multiple copies on one machine.  >   F    I signed up and downloaded a set of licenses. They all appear to beI 0 units, which would mean unlimited use - so it appears the "single user"l& restrictions are legal, not technical.  E    The VMS base license is a type "A", units 0. I'm not clear if thisRC permits unlimited users or if one still needs the OPENVMS-USERS pakeD (which isn't included in these licenses). I believe it's the latter.@ It's been suggested one could use the OPENVMS-USERS pak from theC CSLG here ( but then the system(s) would have to be included in the 8 CSLG license "headcount", so they're no longer "free" ).  K > Yes, it's very screwed up.  I'm just a little skeptical that it's TOTALLYc
 > screwed up.a >   D     Technically I can't fault the system, it's quick and easy to getB signed up and download licenses. It's the convoluted and confusingC legalese of the terms and conditions which still makes me doubt thee& programs usefulness in the real world.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:55:29 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011255290001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <98li72$1k40$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu wrote:  N > In article <rdeininger-1303010159480001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>,7 >  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:1  aJ > The university won't risk the hassle and I won't risk my job.  When (if)J > Compaq decides to legally clarify this situation, that would be one lessK > roadblock.  But they have chosen to remain silent up to this point.  That.I > tells most of us that they meant exactly what they said in the originaln
 > license.  J About the only other suggestion I have is to ask your in-house legal folksD to put the questions to Compaq on your behalf.  That might provoke aH response, or maybe not.  But I suspect you don't care about it enough to push it.  I Do you take the linux GPL over to you legal department and ask them to okv what you are doing with linux?    yJ > |> > I can buy a brand new P3 with a warranty and everything for ~$700.  I can't L > |> > imagine getting a functional Alpha capable of running VMS for that.   > |> dK > |> You can _easily_ get a functional alpha workstation with a monitor fordJ > |> $250 to $300, complete.  It won't be a recent model.  It won't have a* > |> warranty, but will be well broken in. > L > Do you honestly think that the beancounters see it that way??  You can buyJ > old junk or you can buy new equipment.  One has a warranty and the otherJ > can't be repaired for less than full replacement cost.  This isn't goingO > into my basement, it's going into what constitutes the offices of a business.   G Ok, you have no discretion on purchases, even when you will support theoG equipment.  It's pretty pointless to offer suggestions to you.  I guess I you should ask your bean-counters to post _their_ objections.  PresumablycJ they have no use for VMS either, since they've not heard of it.  Will they' listen to your judgement on that topic?)   > |> > And oneG > |> > box does not make a lab.  And if the lab is full of PeeCees, whys would anyoneI > |> > using it bother to log into a remote Alpha when all the tools theyc need are# > |> > right there on the desktop??d > |> -6 > |> I thought the point was to learn something new... > L > And how precisely does having an Alpha with no tools offer a better chanceO > of doing that than a PC with Win2000 with all the available common packages??nK > Everything the student does is learning, but they need to tools to do it.eI > What would you have them writting their thesis with?? LSE in a DECTerm?i  I No, I would use LaTeX and vi in a DECterm, but maybe I'm peculiar.  There J are a number of other options...  "Alpha with no tools" is unsupportable. D You would think folks haven't been doing real work on VMS these past) 20-odd years.  Have we all been dreaming?u  J How did we get to this point in the thread?  I thought you had expressed aF least a passing interest in using VMS in the classroom.  I've tried toI offer suggestions in that direction.  You keep putting up new objections.h  H Presumably you knew what tools are available on VMS a few days ago, whenF you expressed interest.  If lack of tools was a show-stopper then, whyH were you interested?  Why did you imply that cost was the show-stopper? G Why do you care about the cost of VMS, when you seem to exclude it from ! every activity for other reasons?y  I > See above.  What DECWindows program are they going to use to type theiraM > thesis??  How about UML tools??  Is there an equivalent to Visio?? RationallN > Rose??  Is there even an equivalent to Netscape??  Work needs to be done andG > done in a timely fashion.  A lot gets covered each semester.  WithoutrM > reasonable productivity tools, the boxes would merely occupy valuable spacerL > and never see any use.  getting VMS back into academia is not as simple asB > buying some used  Alphas and setting them up in a lab somewhere.  G Weren't we talking about student porting projects, with assistance from@F faculty?  Pretty pointless to discuss it; if you want all the softwareB before you start, there's nothing left to port.  I didn't advocateG replacing your beloved billy-boxes, but I think you could likely fit in>F some exposure to non-herd-follower stuff like VMS.  I guess you reallyF don't want to do that, and will find some reason to avoid it no matter/ what.  Or maybe you're just in an arguin' mood.   K > You hire them every day.  I would bet that less than 10% of CS grads haveyK > any experience with VMS at all and I would bet the number is closer to 1%y. > that have any significant experince with it.  E I'm not referring to hiring VMS experience.  I was thinking about thetI possiblity of hiring folks who can think, who don't need to be spoon fed,hG who are willing to work with non-faddish tools when appropriate.  And IN  don't hire anyone at this point.  E I wonder if too much reliance on the tool-of-the-moment will hurt thedE students in the long run.  The tools will be gone in a few years; the*H concepts and mode of thinking about a problem will still be useful.  I'mJ saying this as a criticism of your CS program, since I don't know anythingF about it.  I've seen students from other places who seems to have this	 handicap.0  D My electronics professor complained that when he was in school, theyD taught him everything about vacuum tubes, at the expense of teachingC general electronics concepts.  He promised not to teach us the goryr6 details of the then-current generation of transistors.  I For example, a student who finds Rational Rose useful ought to be able toUI get some mileage out of the VMS software development tools.  If he can't, B I think he's being mis-educated.  So I don't think the lack of theJ identical tool with identical features is a valid complaint.  Teaching theB appropriate use of a category of tool is pretty platform-neurtral;? teaching a particular tool to the exclusion of others is risky.t  I Are you turning out students who are helpless without all these tools?  I.E hope not, and I doubt it is the case.  Maybe your words went a littlet overboard above?   G > Sure you can. You can try to convince Compaq that serious support forhG > education is important and worth their attention.  You can try to gethF > enough businesses who share this vision together to work on possibleG > solutions.  If Compaq won't take the initiative those who rely on theuG > continued existence of VMS may have to.  One thing is certain, peoplelG > like me don't occupy high enough positions in academia to do anything F > from this side.  A total lack of VMS in our labs does not affect the5 > bottom line, so there is no incentive to change it.a  G I don't have a direct line to Compaq.  I'm much lower on the totem pole(G than you are, and have no budget for anything, not just VMS. I look for > constructive ways to promote VMS, but I rarely see any nearby.   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 18:07:09 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a" Subject: Re: Low cost workstations, Message-ID: <98lnkd$1mb8$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <rdeininger-1303010212400001@user-2ive7ps.dialup.mindspring.com>,5  rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:r |> I |> IM |> Apply the same standard to other software.  Don't any of the students have>J |> to use software that requires them to read (skip) legal boilerplate andM |> click the "I agree" button when they install it?  Do they shun the courses.$ |> that make them use this software?  : No.  the students don't install any software on University= owned computers. (At least their not supposed to!)  No coursen9 makes a student install anything other than offering themf; freeware (like GNAT or Grasp) for their home/dorm computer.y> But that is merely a convenience.  All the commercial softwareB is bought by the University, licensed by the University, installed3 by the University and maintained by the University.i  ? We would have to have published the need for this license if iti? was required by the course at some point in the past.  It would>B probably have resulted in students not taking the course and maybe even not coming to the school.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:14:39 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Low cost workstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011314390001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  F In article <oSMr$aLEY+l4@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:  G >    The VMS base license is a type "A", units 0. I'm not clear if thishE > permits unlimited users or if one still needs the OPENVMS-USERS pakrF > (which isn't included in these licenses). I believe it's the latter.B > It's been suggested one could use the OPENVMS-USERS pak from theE > CSLG here ( but then the system(s) would have to be included in thei: > CSLG license "headcount", so they're no longer "free" ).  H I'm 2 or 3 layers away from folks who deal with CSLG, so I may have thisI wrong. There's supposedly a clause that lets you use 5 (or 10, I've hearddH both) workstation-class systems and count them as one unit on the CSLG. F So a 10-unit CSLG would work for 50 (or 100) workstations systems.  Is
 this real?  M > > Yes, it's very screwed up.  I'm just a little skeptical that it's TOTALLY  > > screwed up.n > >  > F >     Technically I can't fault the system, it's quick and easy to getD > signed up and download licenses. It's the convoluted and confusingE > legalese of the terms and conditions which still makes me doubt ther( > programs usefulness in the real world.   -- . Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comm   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:38:35 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>hH Subject: Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?H Message-ID: <y4hf0xokkk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:  G > It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially a technologye6 > company - and then drive all the technologists away.  E I had always thought Compaq had bought DEC for its service division.     	Jan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 12:48:55 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrH Subject: Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?, Message-ID: <98l9m1$jo8$18@bob.news.rcn.net>  , In article <98jjj5$io7@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,6    mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) wrote:E >In article <334patocn2cjq9l842uu83kl0kg4kfko1p@4ax.com>, daytripper c$ <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> writes: >aA >Can somebody please verify the details related in this story? In I >particular, the level of attrition at Marlboro and the hollowing out of e thewK >small/midrange machine engineering pool.  This  makes future alpha systems J >development appear to be even more of an iffy proposition than it already >was.  >b >>G >>Well....Remember they pre-sold a 256-processor box to the Feds - got e mucho C >>funding bucks for the deal - but by the time they actually built h	 somethingtD >>they could ship, the architecture could only get to 32 processors.< >>"Ooops! Sorry 'bout that - can you use a cluster instead?" >>I >>The last three years have been pretty weird for Marlboro. The first 18   monthsG >>they were battered by The Big Lie out of Houston - that "the Digital   merger" H >>was dragging down the corporate bottom line. Every time the rolled-up  numberssH >>lurched south, corporate hacks told every media outlet that their coreE >>business (selling shitty peecees) was just fine - all of the money f problems$ >>were due to the pit in Marlboro... >>F >>Well, you can work an engineer to death - as long as he thinks he's 	 respectedwJ >>for the effort. The folks at MRO clearly weren't. And the result - man,  theoI >>attrition was awesome, as a *huge* percentage of the talent discovered t ThehJ >>Outside World - some for the first time in 20-something years - and the  notion( >>of stock that actually appreciated ;-) >sF >It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially a technology5 >company - and then drive all the technologists away.  >n >>G >>Meanwhile, the Oberfuerher is taken out, Mike C steps in, and as his c first(L >>significant action, unravels the books in public. Whoa Nellie - what have  weG >>here? "Houston, we have a BIG problem!" The core peecee business was   tanking,% >>big time, and no bottom in sight...- >>E >>Meanwhile the midrange Alphabits and Tandems were actually turning   seriousrK >>profits (into the 9 digit range) and in fact were holding Q's head above g the % >>sea of "industry standard" red ink.n >> >>Gotta love the irony ;-) >>3 >>As for Marlboro: well, some things never change: . >>J >>- the volume server segment that *carried* Alpha for the last two years  isJ >>kaput - ALL of the engineers bailed - so the dual and quad bidness will  beK >>based on reselling API hardware (assuming *that* effort ever bears fruit u -i? >>which is questionable - lots o' luck on chipset development)." >cE >This is the part that's really scary.  The local experience with APItH >machinery has been pretty dismal.  (These weren't my machines but I've  beenJ >observing their "progress" at close hand.)  Quality has been bad (systemsJ >that won't run at rated speed, systems that won't run with graphics cardsG >that they supposedly supported) and the price was only ever marginally H >lower than that of real Compaq kit.  And the API site doesn't indicate  thatI >they can run VMS or Tru64, although I'm pretty sure that the UP2000 can,iH >but not sure at what level of support that is.  (Ie, some of the NT 164F >systems will run VMS too, but that doesn't mean that anybody supportsK >that.)  Nor has API ever built anything with >2 processors, and it's a bigt# >step in complexity up from 2 CPUs.  >t >>L >>- Wildfire (aka Aquarius-II with $2000 blowers) *finally* starts shipping  - I >>three years late and still on a wing and a prayer. Will it ever recoup c theeG >>development costs - especially with the world-wide economy taking an - extended >>breather?  >>J >>- And now Marvel - yet another Platform For All Segments (No! No! We've  *seen*K >>that movie!) - is stumbling along in the pipeline. Another technological i tourL >>de force - in an era of cheap hardware. The honchos will tell you they'll  beJ >>able to sell these from Slates to Crates. Good luck making any money at  either >>end... >> >pI >The outcome for both of the above products will depend more on marketinguA >than on technology.  Which, unfortunately, is not a good thing, s considering + >who it is that needs to do the marketing. e >h  > I see you all are still carrying on the Bell tradition:  "When in trouble, blame Marlboro".   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.f   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 12:46:14 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnH Subject: Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?, Message-ID: <98l9gv$jo8$17@bob.news.rcn.net>  H In article <y4hf0xokkk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,K    Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:e5 >mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:e >SH >> It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially a technology7 >> company - and then drive all the technologists away.e >iF >I had always thought Compaq had bought DEC for its service division.   ? They did.  Everything that could be sold in the other areas wasq before Compaq bought it.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:39:17 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>H Subject: Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?; Message-ID: <Farr6.1346$mH4.720101@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>w  L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y4hf0xokkk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...6 > mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: >0I > > It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially a technologyt8 > > company - and then drive all the technologists away. >sF > I had always thought Compaq had bought DEC for its service division. >   J So did the trade press and some of the Wall Street beancounters. ObviouslyE Services was one of the factors in the plan to purchase equation, butaL certainly not the only factor. The enterprise systems and storage franchisesI were no less important in this regard, and thus far both have done betters than has the Services business.m   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2001 00:19:25 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>H Subject: Re: Marlboro men, was:  Re: - OpenVMS ever to be on Intel chip?- Message-ID: <87lmq9fxpu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:    > In articleC > <y4hf0xokkk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, JanfF > Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  7 > >mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes:c  ? > >> It's just plain nuts to spend $9B on what is essentially atD > >> technology company - and then drive all the technologists away.  = > >I had always thought Compaq had bought DEC for its service  > >division.  A > They did.  Everything that could be sold in the other areas wast > before Compaq bought it.  B As opposed to the service div, wich they trashed after the sale...   -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.t@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:17:11 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)9 Subject: Re: Open a file, open a another - fails silentlyh0 Message-ID: <HZpr6.57$G_1.3420@news.cpqcorp.net>  \ In article <3AAD4683.FC0C0186@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Charlie Hammond wrote: G >> The problem this often causes me is that if a sequentailly read fileoH >> is already open, the next read starts at the current postition in theE >> file, not at the beginning.  Not surprisingly, this often produceseF >> unacceptably different results -- and no small amount of confusion. >dK >That is why I like to put in a ON ERROR THEN GOTO MYCLOSE and ON CONTROL_Ye >THEN GOTO MYCLOSE > M >where MYCLOSE will close all files. This way, when you rerrun the procedure,e >it restarts at the top.  5 Yes, I do similar things too.  Often even ON WARNING!'  % BUT --- There are _two_ isues here...   E     (1) The CLOSE/NOLOG or CLOSE/ERROR=<label_on_next_line> techniquet8     protects THIS execution of THIS command procedure.       C     (2)The error routine that [conditionally] closes all files thatiF     might be open protects the NEXT procedure (or interactive) OPEN of
     the file.t  A I recommend doing both, because you cannot assume that other codee will do either.o   --  K     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAaH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:36:08 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AADEA08.95DAF6A8@infopuls.com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > K > While I see where you're coming from, I wouldn't make this such a blankettG > statement. I'd wager there's many useful features in Unix that aren'teJ > dangerous, and if implemented with the quality we've come to expect from' > VMS engineering would be very useful.  > L > I for one am looking forward to fork(). I know you won't like it, coz it'sL > C, and that's against your religion, but it would make it feasable to portM > a lot more apps over to VMS and that's a Good Thing. For example, I believebL > Mozilla wouldn't exist for VMS if the VMSE guys hadn't worked out a way to > fork.u >  > Shane  > ? > Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> on 03/10/2001 01:47:58 PMt >  > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comb > cc:e > + > Subject:  Re: OpenVMS Educational Programr >  > Alan Greig wrote:l > >h? > > On 8 Mar 2001 14:59:32 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billw > > Gunshannon) wrote: > > K > > >Sadly, while this stuff gets talked about here every couple of months,oK > > >and everybody agrees that something needs to be done, nothing ever is.s > >cJ > > I would agree that this has been the case. Development wise though VMSI > > is moving forward again. The DII COE work if done well should give us - > > the best of both worlds - VMS *and* Unix.t > >m- > > What we still need is marketing and apps.T > >o > > > 	 > > >billa > >y > > -- > > Alan > I > The best of both worlds is VMS. Any single element of UNIX put into VMS  > reduces its quality.   Quality is dependent on time and complexity i.e. effort and skilfulness. Having UNIX on VMS raises complexity and hence imposes more difficulty in achieving quality.e   Why do we want another UNIX?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:28:43 +0000c) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AADE84B.C5B9BCF5@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3AAAAA8D.A60900B3@infopuls.com>,. >  Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:m > |> >@ > |> > Ummm.  Nothing is mandatory in Unix.  If a user finds theD > |> > short names (which really do have a reason and a logic behindA > |> > them.  Well, most of them anyway.) offensive he is free toaC > |> > change any of them.  Aliases are simple to set up.  And eventE > |> > complete shells are easy to make.  I have seen Shells providedoB > |> > by various Unix vendors that imitated the MSDOS COMMAND.COMB > |> > interface and Tandy did one for their version of Xenix thatC > |> > mimiced TRSDOS-II.   I personally wrote a Shell that mimiceduB > |> > The UCSD Pascal menu interface.  One of Unix's strengths is > |> > infinite adaptability.n > |>L > |> The important difference is that with VMS you can rely on the standard. > I > What standard??  Most people I know don't consider a proprietary way ofgN > doing something as a standard.  There is always only one way to do womething > when there is no competition.t   Standard on the platform which makes life a lot easier. If there were only VMS something like Java or the Oracle Java installer wouldn't be needed.   C > |> With UNIX you aren't sure about the shell you will have to usee > J > Shell is a user selectable option.  It's what the "chsh" command is for.K > All Unix machines I have ever seen offer at least 2 to choose from.  Some0L > offer many more.  I would expect that most Unix sys admins would, like me,J > consider adding other shells if their users wanted them. (within reason,
 > of course.)i   I know, I know. But what if the shell you are accustomed to isn't offered and the sysadmins like at the Swiss Exchange have a policy not offer the bash?  Q > |>                                                                and if *your*tP > |> aliases can be set up automatically (what if you have to type them in everyQ > |> time you login because you don't have the right to change anything permament B > |> of youer account on a certain machine at a customer's site?). > P > The designation of aliases is done in your .login file in your home directory.L > If you are not even allowed to manipulate something as basic as this, yourO > account is virtually useless anyway.  Either the sys admin is an idiot or youhN > need to pick your customers from a more realistic list.  Can you imagine not= > having the necessary permissions to modify your LOGIN.COM??s   Been there, done that, even on VMS with accounts which I wasn't allowed to change the LOGIN.COM. I was talking about the legal right to change something e.g. on a bank's machine.  Q > |> Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at least two differentk8 > |> sets of scripts for two shells. Major step forward! > H > Actually, I would guess that what they provide are two scripts for twoG > different families of shells, which means they actually cover all but-+ > maybe the most obscure of private shells.:   And this is exactly what I was talking about: the necessity for superflous work and the risk of having bugs or an old version in one of these scripts and not in the other a.s.o..  J > |> Congratulations BTW for beeing acquainted with the UCSD Pascal systemG > |> which was by far one of the best development systems at that time.' > J > I worked with it a lot back in the early 80's.  It's why I laugh at Java) > so much.  Old technology warmed over...e   Right.   > |> >D > |> > I openly admit that I am a novice VMS Admin.  Been at it lessC > |> > than a year.  But the point is most of the people here don'toB > |> > know Unix any better than I know VMS.  And that makes theirB > |> > observations about as meaningful (or meaningless, depending# > |> > on your point of view) mine.s > |>G > |> I'm not sure if this is true. I do UNIX administration since 1996.l > F > And you still didn't know that the user could change his own shell??
 > (see above)o   I do, I do, see above.   > |>< > |> > The Unix haters here are so blinded by their religion> > |> > that they are missing the whole point and have led this; > |> > to deteriorate into little more than ahouting match.o > |>I > |> The flaws of UNIX are no invention of VMS people/advocates. They area- > |> *inherent*, they are 'architectured' in.k > ? > The "flaws" as you call them are only flaws to you.  They areoB > design decisions to unix people.  Unix files are just streams of= > bytes because that is the way Unix wants them.  Not a flaw.gB > Different is not flawed, just different.  You may not understand> > the rationale behind the differences, you may not like them,) > but that still doesn't make them flaws.o  vNo, these flaws are partially lack of services, missing concepts and standards or simply poorly thought through "design decisions" based on the UNIX "philosophy" to offer only half of a solution letting the rest be solved by the users. Unfortunately you never defend the technical examples of brokeness that I gave many times. Repeating what you again did isn't an argument.   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:32:45 +0000>) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>h( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AADE93D.FBF4E2EE@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] > A > > The important difference is that with VMS you can rely on thes@ > > standard. With UNIX you aren't sure about the shell you willA > > have to use and if *your* aliases can be set up automaticallyh: > > (what if you have to type them in every time you loginA > > because you don't have the right to change anything permament A > > of youer account on a certain machine at a customer's site?).y > L > Your message was perfectly reasonable up until this point.  I have to ask,M > though -- what if you don't have the right to change anything permanent?  IiJ > would say at that point the system in question is grossly misconfigured. > < > > Look at the Oracle installation on UNIX. They provide at= > > least two different sets of scripts for two shells. Majort > > step forward!s > L > Generally you can, on Unix, depend on the bourne shell.  The problem comesK > when people want to do things in their shell scripts that bourne won't doMJ > (or are just too stuck on something else to use bourne).  If you want toN > complain about the limited capability of the bourne language, that's another3 > thing, and you won't hear an argument from me. :)o > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrisy > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developert > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");eB > 'I should have emphasised that little "your account". I've seen > UNIX environments at Swiss banks where you weren't allowed to > change any of the startup scripts (.bashrc, .profile etc.) of < the root account even if they gave you the root password to  install e.g. Oracle.  > Why is it that Oracle provides two sets of scripts? Why don't  they rely on the Bourne shell?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:12:40 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational ProgramH Message-ID: <OFDC20BFA7.8BB41A6A-ON80256A0E.003C5C62@qedi.quintiles.com>  E This is getting to be something of a flame war come religious war.  I < didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition and all that..........  I Complexity of code is something that is almost part and parcel of presentfK product offerings.  This is because people are expecting more functions and K more displays and in the case of some environments cruddy little paperclipsmJ that come up when you least expect/need/want them and flying bits of paperC that take up CPU time when you should actually be copying the file.s Grrrrr!t  C I would expect that stuff like cluster transition capabilities, SCSsI connections over switched LANs, memory channel and other interconnects is K pretty complex to get right, as are a fair number of other parts of the VMStI operating system (not just the kernel).  Would you say that VMS is low oniH quality?  No.  Would you say that these bells and whistles should not be  added in (along with APMP)?  No.  ? What you're getting with the work that is being carried out areuK capabilities on VMS to present Unix-like environment features.  Or, as Fred F Kleinsorge (not speaking for Compaq or OpenVMS or the US DoD) put it :  C >>>So what COE provides is a common look & feel for the applicationaK environment, which tends to drill down all the way to the UNIX command linehI interfaces.  You also have some "standards" - like POSIX and JAVA - whichaB if people writing new segments adhere to, would allow source level compatability.<<<i  ) then later in the same message he wrote :c  K >>>This does not "replace" anything that VMS currently does, or even weakentJ it. All the capabilities are incremental, or supplemental.  But as always,F poor UNIX code will work poorly, and good UNIX code will work well.  II expect that when someone wants the code to "mesh" into a VMS environment,hJ they may have work to do beyond a simple port - or they can choose to live" with a UNIX fish in a VMS pond.<<<   Christof Brass wrote:rK >>>Quality is dependent on time and complexity i.e. effort and skilfulness.uI Having UNIX on VMS raises complexity and hence imposes more difficulty in  achieving quality.   Why do we want another UNIX?<<<.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:57:58 GMTc/ From: "Johan Schoofs" <jschoofs@compuserve.com>>% Subject: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility.; Message-ID: <qksr6.12800$ou.891398@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>@   Hi all,u  H When replacing an existing cluster of VAXes with an Alpha based cluster,F would it be possible to copy the queue and user databases from the VAXI system disk to the Alpha system disk or do you have to rebuild these fromt3 scratch? The VAXes are currently running OVMS V6.x.    Thanks for you help!   Johan    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:18:45 GMTC1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>d) Subject: Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility-2 Message-ID: <3AAE5701.D1BD9F76@clarityconnect.com>  H Yes you can copy the SYSUAF and RIGHTSLIST and copying the queue managerF files can also be done but it is very easy to mess it up.  Do you haveF some many queues and queued jobs that it really will be easier to copy9 the queue manager files instead of initializing new ones?s   Johan Schoofs wrote: > 	 > Hi all,k > J > When replacing an existing cluster of VAXes with an Alpha based cluster,H > would it be possible to copy the queue and user databases from the VAXK > system disk to the Alpha system disk or do you have to rebuild these froml5 > scratch? The VAXes are currently running OVMS V6.x.s >  > Thanks for you help! >  > Johanm   -- eD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:25:34 -0600i* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>) Subject: RE: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibilityl- Message-ID: <0033000018558915000002L052*@MHS>:  < =0ASYSUAF.DAT and RIGHTSLIST.DAT should copy over just fine.  9 I'll defer to someone who's actually done it with respect.7 to queue manager databases; I never have and I've nevern read about it being done.h   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETt( > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:59 AM8 > To: Webb, William W; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET' > Subject: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibilityn >  > 	 > Hi all,a >t; > When replacing an existing cluster of VAXes with an Alphab > based cluster,H > would it be possible to copy the queue and user databases from the VA= Xt8 > system disk to the Alpha system disk or do you have to > rebuild these from5 > scratch? The VAXes are currently running OVMS V6.x.i >  > Thanks for you help! >1 > Johan  >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:05:43 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)) Subject: Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibility.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1303011305430001@user-2ivebn3.dialup.mindspring.com>  B In article <qksr6.12800$ou.891398@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>, "Johan) Schoofs" <jschoofs@compuserve.com> wrote:h  	 > Hi all,  > J > When replacing an existing cluster of VAXes with an Alpha based cluster,H > would it be possible to copy the queue and user databases from the VAXK > system disk to the Alpha system disk or do you have to rebuild these fromo5 > scratch? The VAXes are currently running OVMS V6.x.n  D If you add the new alphas into the existing cluster, you can migrateI queues, users, etc. at your leisure.  But your VAX VMS may be too old fortE supported compatiblitly with the minimum required alpha version.  YouME might have to upgrade the vaxes first.  It might still be worthwhile,l depending on your situation.  I You may also be able to just pick up the appropriate files and plunk themnE down on the new cluster.  But sometimes formats change during version.J upgrades.  You might have to do some conversions partly by hand.  Read theI release notes for the intervening versions to see if such concerns apply.e  D Logical names for these "environment" files are typically defined inJ SYLOGICALS.COM. (With a few extra bits required for the queue manager, forH example.)  I think there are some useful comments in this file on recentH versions of VMS. (7.2 and higher?)  That's a good place to start lookingJ for the stuff you likely want to move to the new cluster to make it behave much like the old one.   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coms   ------------------------------   Date: 13 MAR 2001 18:38:17 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>B) Subject: Re: OVMS VAX/Alpha compatibilitye2 Message-ID: <13MAR01.18381723@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  0 "Johan Schoofs" <jschoofs@compuserve.com> wrote:	 > Hi all,  >   J > When replacing an existing cluster of VAXes with an Alpha based cluster,H > would it be possible to copy the queue and user databases from the VAXK > system disk to the Alpha system disk or do you have to rebuild these fromn5 > scratch? The VAXes are currently running OVMS V6.x.o  M I've copied the user database (sysuaf, rightslist, netproxy, net$proxy, etc.)sF successfully.  That was VAX/VMS 5.5-2 -> AXP/VMS 6.2.  And I've sharedI those files between VAX/VMS 6.2 and AXP/VMS 7.1-2.  So those should be noo problem.  G I would expect the queue database to work also - at least as far as thenF queues and forms themselves go.  Depending on your configuration, it'sI likely that all the device names will change which means that none of thed5 existing queued jobs will run.  In any case, I'd do a ) SHOW QUEUE/ALL /FULL/OUT=<file> *     andsH SHOW QUEUE/FORM/FULL/OUT=<file> *     before starting this.  I also haveE a .COM which will create a 2nd .COM to recreate the existing databaseaE which I can share if you want.  (The 2nd .COM requires some editing.)o   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVoH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:30:47 +0200 (MET)p1 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.exchange.de>l* Subject: privs, name tables, documentation3 Message-ID: <01K15E3283KC9N53P5@sysdev.exchange.de>   ( HELP CREATE/NAME_TABLE/PARENT_TABLE says  F          Requires either create (C) access to the parent table and wr= itenE          (W) access to the system directory  or the SYSNAM privilege.t  0 I assume the "either" implies that this means=20  F          Requires either (create (C) access to the parent table and w= riteE          (W) access to the system directory) or the SYSNAM privilege.9   and notl  F          Requires either create (C) access to the parent table and (w= riteE          (W) access to the system directory or the SYSNAM privilege).n  F Either way, with create access to the parent table and write access t= o=20F the system directory, it should be possible to create a name table.  = I=207 have found that SYSNAM isn't sufficient, but SYSPRV is.r  F Is this a bug in the documentation, or in the implementation (or both= )?  B In my case, the parent table is the new LNM$SYSCLUSTER.  Is there= =20>2 anything special about this table in this respect?  E (The idea is to have a logical name table for an individual group or=  =20 E user which is visible cluster-wide, and LNM$SYSCLUSTER as the parent=  =20T table fits the bill.)e  F As I am still ironing out problems with my InfoVAX subscription (hope=  to=20F move back to NNTP access around the middle of April), please let me k= now=20E if you see this, even if you don't have an answer my questions above.      --=20hF Phillip Helbig              Email ........... helbphi@sysdev.exchange= .deeF Deutsche B=F6rse Systems AG   Email ... Phillip.Helbig@Deutsche-Boers= e.com F Xetra/Eurex Operations      Tel. ...................... +49 69 2101 4= 921nF 60485 Frankfurt am Main     Fax ....................... +49 69 2101 3= 411e  F My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer and, no, I don't= =20d have any stock tips for you.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:11:04 GMTr, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>. Subject: Re: privs, name tables, documentation& Message-ID: <3AAE1C48.C959E121@gmx.ch>  
 cu see me :-)i   Phillip Helbig wrote:h >i ../..h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:56:49 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.come. Subject: Re: privs, name tables, documentationD Message-ID: <OF49CE84C4.E89211CB-ON88256A0E.006279AC@foundation.com>   cu Jimmy! <<thud>>  D (British joke - if it doesn't make sense it's not worth explaining.)   Shanee          @ Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> on 03/13/2001 05:11:04 AM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:h  / Subject:  Re: privs, name tables, documentatione    
 cu see me :-)t   Phillip Helbig wrote:e >l ../..o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:28:24 +0000s  From: steven.reece@quintiles.com. Subject: Re: privs, name tables, documentationH Message-ID: <OF43FEADF5.0EA614B5-ON80256A0E.0064F0B2@qedi.quintiles.com>  4 I have this wonderful image of our computer room....J The Turbolasers looking at the Sun racks and then launching off at them asF in Shane's message.  Static discharges everywhere, but the AlphaServerH 4100s and the AlphaServer 8400s still running and wondering what all theK fuss is about whilst the Sun boxes are scattered on the floor with ones and : zeroes circling around them in a dazed manner......  :-))) Steve.   Shane wrote /quoted :f >>>cu Jimmy! <<thud>>s  D (British joke - if it doesn't make sense it's not worth explaining.)   Shaneh  D >Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi at gmx.ch> on 03/13/2001 05:11:04 AM cu see me :-)    < <<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:35:39 +0000e8 From: David J. Dachtera <donotreply@interbulletin.bogus> Subject: TCPware SMTP Time Zonem1 Message-ID: <3AAE4C5B.4FD6AB9B@interbulletin.com>   O O.K. I'm not finding this in the doc.; so, I hope someone here can help. (Also w* posted to vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.tcpware.)  N My TCPware SMTP out-going mail is being sent with the time zone in the headers6 as GMT instead of the value shown in TCPWARE_TIMEZONE:   $ sh log TCPWARE_TIMEZONEh4    "TCPWARE_TIMEZONE" = "-060000" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)         = "CST"s $ mc tcpware:netcu a NETCU> show versM TCPware(R) for OpenVMS V5.4-3 Copyright (c) 1999 Process Software Corporation    (On OpenVMS-VAX V6.2)   ) Anyone have any ideas on how to fix this?l   TIA    -- David J. Dachtera, dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b  / _______________________________________________w; Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.coml   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:35:26 GMTo, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: test (please ignore)d& Message-ID: <3AADDBAF.350F8F29@gmx.ch>   test   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 14:39:14 GMT% From: afeldman@elsewhere.gfigroup.comeT Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS* Message-ID: <98lbei$1b9$1@news.netmar.com>  < In article <3AACD50E.3DCE2D8B@jpmorgan.com>, Andrew G Scott % <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> writes:oH >I am using "diff /parallel /page <file1> <file2>" to compare two files.H >The two files are essentially the same, the only differences being that7 >one _should_ only have additional lines of code in it.r > H >The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new codeG >in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content that'H >are not different. That said, if you looked across the two files at theH >same sort of line numbers, the files would be "different" but the pointH >is that if diff simply looked ahead to see if there was a match then itG >would find one even if it meant the match was displaced by a number of- >lines.- >-A >I tried to replicate this using two short files which would haves0 >explained it better but I failed but here goes. >n >file 1    file 2- >  >a        a4 >b        1. >c        bt >d        cr >e        2  >f        g 
 >g       d
 >h       e
 >        f
 >        g
 >        hH >Now, I'd expect diff to report the new section in file 2 but it reportsG >that lines "g" and "h" in file 1 differ from lines "d" and "e" in file G >2. Yes, strictly speaking they are different but not if you look aheada7 >and look for matches. The Unix diff command does this.e >sD >I see VMS diff has other qualifiers that I can use to set number ofB >matching lines etc. but it could take me ages to figure them out. >a >Can anyone help?a >a >Regards
 >Andrew Scott    Using the defaults, I got:   IDS03$ difp 1.1 2.2/width=40' --------------------------------------- ' File DISK$DATA1:[  |  File DISK$DATA1:[i' --------- 2 ----------------- 2 -------  b                  |  1n c                  |  b                     |  cs                    |  2s                    |  gd' ---------------------------------------e  o& Number of difference sections found: 1% Number of difference records found: 5r  e  DIFFERENCES /IGNORE=()/WIDTH=40-     /PARALLEL-     DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN]1.1;2-     DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN]2.2;1o  J So I don't see how you got your claimed results. Can you show us the exact command and results?  	 Anyway...nK Check out the /match and /window qualifiers. By adjusting their values, youe tailor the way DIFF works.      O  -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----.M   http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups I    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other postsyL made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abuse@newsone.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:39:14 -0500t0 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty.NOSPAM@sas.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS   cm12 Message-ID: <yyKuOlDi1UvaJaVJ0pW+2UYQxIXh@4ax.com>  B Try the /MATCH qualifier.  It assumes the files don't match unless; the specified number of lines are the same.  The default is 	 /MATCH=3.h  2 On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:54:22 +0000, Andrew G Scott$ <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> wrote:  H >I am using "diff /parallel /page <file1> <file2>" to compare two files.H >The two files are essentially the same, the only differences being that7 >one _should_ only have additional lines of code in it.  >iH >The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new codeG >in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content thatlH >are not different. That said, if you looked across the two files at theH >same sort of line numbers, the files would be "different" but the pointH >is that if diff simply looked ahead to see if there was a match then itG >would find one even if it meant the match was displaced by a number oft >lines.e > A >I tried to replicate this using two short files which would havea0 >explained it better but I failed but here goes. >l >file 1    file 2. >  >a        ae >b        1e >c        b  >d        c  >e        2a >f        gM
 >g       d
 >h       e
 >        f
 >        g
 >        h >iH >Now, I'd expect diff to report the new section in file 2 but it reportsG >that lines "g" and "h" in file 1 differ from lines "d" and "e" in filemG >2. Yes, strictly speaking they are different but not if you look aheade7 >and look for matches. The Unix diff command does this.J > D >I see VMS diff has other qualifiers that I can use to set number ofB >matching lines etc. but it could take me ages to figure them out. >c >Can anyone help?t >e >Regards
 >Andrew Scottc >e   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 07:30:21 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)oY Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd t5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-KCdxYmOgdk2f@localhost>v  - On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:54:22, Andrew G Scott h$ <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> wrote:  I > I am using "diff /parallel /page <file1> <file2>" to compare two files.pI > The two files are essentially the same, the only differences being thata8 > one _should_ only have additional lines of code in it. > I > The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new codeuH > in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content thatI > are not different. That said, if you looked across the two files at the9I > same sort of line numbers, the files would be "different" but the pointuI > is that if diff simply looked ahead to see if there was a match then iteH > would find one even if it meant the match was displaced by a number of > lines. > B > I tried to replicate this using two short files which would have1 > explained it better but I failed but here goes.- >  > file 1    file 2 >  > a        a > b        1 > c        b > d        c > e        2 > f        g > g       dj > h       e  >         fp >         ge >         hA > I > Now, I'd expect diff to report the new section in file 2 but it reportsTH > that lines "g" and "h" in file 1 differ from lines "d" and "e" in fileH > 2. Yes, strictly speaking they are different but not if you look ahead8 > and look for matches. The Unix diff command does this. > E > I see VMS diff has other qualifiers that I can use to set number of C > matching lines etc. but it could take me ages to figure them out.e >  > Can anyone help? > 	 > Regardsq > Andrew Scott >  >    $ diff /mat=10 a b  B That works for me most of the time unless the files are radically 
 different.   You might try :-  1 $ diff /para /ignor=(trail,blank,space,exact) a b    or a  & $ diff /para /ig=(tr,bl,sp,ex,comment)   if you've re-commented ork  ( $ diff /para /ig=(tr,bl,sp,ex,comm,CASE)  F if you have a mix of upper and lowercase chars. (requires VMS 6.2 as a minimum, IIRC)   $ diff /para /comm=";" a b   to diff .MAP files   if a was a file from   $ LIB /LIS /FU  
 you can even E   $ diff /para /comm="r" a b  E the "r" means that all chars after the 'r' in "Inserted" is ignored. 08 Very useful if you use idents in your source code to do  config/Tracability.   F In short DIFF is very powerful command. Beats any other dif or FC I'veC tried to use. I seem to recall that I have one winge every now and e/ again but I can't remember it at the minute :-)r   -- o Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:19:58 +0000b4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd u8 Message-ID: <fksrat0quf52hr0k7qk6f47kh53gnoa4a9@4ax.com>  D On 13 Mar 2001 07:30:21 GMT, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote:  G >In short DIFF is very powerful command. Beats any other dif or FC I'vecD >tried to use. I seem to recall that I have one winge every now and / >again but I can't remember it at the minute :--  D A difference list without the header and trailer cruft would be realD nice ;-)  (When you want a list of the lines in A.A which are not in B.B, using /SEPARATE).  D Is there still that bug where you could trip it into an infinite CPU  loop with careless use of /MAX ?   	Johnb -- J
 John Laird   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 15:48:34 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)Y Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get the VMS cmd t, Message-ID: <98lfgi$k7t@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  a In article <3AACD50E.3DCE2D8B@jpmorgan.com>, Andrew G Scott <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com> writes:w >pH >The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new codeG >in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content that  >are not different.   G Not so fast.  You have to look very carfefully to be sure that two textsI files on VMS aren't actually different.  In particular the record formatstK of the file may very, or there may be NULLs or other nonprinting characters.@ on the ends of the lines, or spaces in one and tabs in the otherH (especially if you've used NEDIT with the wrong settings!).  If you DUMPG the relevent areas you should spot these things easily enough, but TYPEe won't show you.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edut? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:40:14 +0000 2 From: Andrew G Scott <andrew.g.scott@jpmorgan.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to get theVMS cmd tl, Message-ID: <3AAE3F5E.56E61B62@jpmorgan.com>   To all who replied.s  C I have no idea why but whilst testing out the various suggestions IrC received, I found that I could not reproduce the results I obtainedh
 yesterday.  2 So, in essence, diff DOES do what I want it to do.  9 Thanks for helping even if help wasn't actually required.a     Andrew Scott     Andrew G Scott wrote:t  I > I am using "diff /parallel /page <file1> <file2>" to compare two files.qI > The two files are essentially the same, the only differences being thatk8 > one _should_ only have additional lines of code in it. >aI > The problem is that, whilst the above command does show me the new coderH > in the modified file, it also reports huge tracts of code/content thatI > are not different. That said, if you looked across the two files at theXI > same sort of line numbers, the files would be "different" but the pointdI > is that if diff simply looked ahead to see if there was a match then it H > would find one even if it meant the match was displaced by a number of > lines. >eB > I tried to replicate this using two short files which would have1 > explained it better but I failed but here goes.  >  > file 1    file 2 >/ > a        a > b        1 > c        b > d        c > e        2 > f        g > g       dr > h       ex >         fs >         ga >         hu >nI > Now, I'd expect diff to report the new section in file 2 but it reportseH > that lines "g" and "h" in file 1 differ from lines "d" and "e" in fileH > 2. Yes, strictly speaking they are different but not if you look ahead8 > and look for matches. The Unix diff command does this. >rE > I see VMS diff has other qualifiers that I can use to set number oftC > matching lines etc. but it could take me ages to figure them out.. >  > Can anyone help? >B	 > RegardsA > Andrew Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:44:32 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aurY Subject: Re: VMS "diff" command differs from Unix "diff" command. How to getthe VMS cmd t 5 Message-ID: <01K15RLM4WYA00420A@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>   - Andrew Scott wrote: (and I've snipped it all)i  M Off hand, Andrew, I have no easy solution.  I'm afraid I'm just "using" your  M thread.  I generally have to keep re-reading the /ignore keywords and hope I  
 strike lucky.e  Q Yes, I find diff useful for text files of e.g., source code.  But often with the aR same problem as Andrew.  I usually turn on all the ignore whitespace keyword, but ; move a small section of code and whoopee, Andrew's problem.   Q The VMS diff and DTM diff are hopeless for large files of just numbers.  I adapt  K an algorithm and am flooded with diffs.  The last d.p. changes in **some** tP fields. This is one area that I have seen the Microshaft colour coding as being 5 invaluable.  I shall now say penance for saying that.h  O In these days of DECwindows debuggers and diffs, can our VMS engineers give us bP one of the few advantages I have ever seen in the Gates world -- colour coding,  or highlighting?   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,o
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiat   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,r; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam..   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:00:19 GMT.  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>D Subject: Re: VMS 7.2 install requires MACRO32 for standalone BACKUP?8 Message-ID: <32hpat05t78md7bb4p68abuo94fpim5in9@4ax.com>  B On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:58:25 -0000, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) wrote:n  9 >danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook) wrote ine$ ><slrn9ag264.3ld.danco@pebble.org>:  >u4 >>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:07:05 -0000, Warren Spencer! >><wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote:a >>J >>> As I understand it, Macro32 is a layered product, not a core component* >>> of OpenVMS, and therefore is optional. >>H >>Macro-32 is a core component.  Macro-64 is the layered product (and is% >>now on the OpenVMS freeware cdrom).s >> >>- Dane >'/ >uhmmm, why is it optional in the install then?i >M  F "Optional" has always been an unfortunate word usage, imho.  I've beenF to sites that didn't install these under V4.x and was dismayed to find> that lots of useful things didn't exist (like, e.g., MONITOR).  B I've always told people to just install (almost) everything in theD OpenVMS kit because they may find they really need them later (e.g.,E DECwindows/Motif - some products won't install/work without that, but.7 lots of folks didn't install this on non-workstations).u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:39:04 +0100f+ From: Richard Levitte <levitte@openssl.org>c6 Subject: [ANNOUNCEMENT] OpenSSL 0.9.6a Beta 1 released/ Message-ID: <20010313183904.A12786@openssl.org>a  B The first beta release of OpenSSL 0.9.6a is now available from the6 OpenSSL FTP site <URL: ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/>.  C OpenSSL 0.9.6a is a bug-fix release of version 0.9.6, and currentlyuD contains 41 changes.  Among others, this release should build on allH Windows platforms, which 0.9.6 failed to do.  Just as for version 0.9.6,H this one comes in two variants, one containing the now well-known ENGINE. code and one that doesn't.  The tar files are:   	openssl-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gz# 	openssl-engine-0.9.6a-beta1.tar.gze  A The release of the second beta of OpenSSL 0.9.6a is scheduled for D Monday 2001-03-19.  To make sure that it will work correctly, pleaseC test this version (especially on less common platforms), and reporte+ any problems to <openssl-bugs@openssl.org>.i   --  + Richard Levitte         levitte@openssl.orgh8 OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/? Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/T   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2001 07:30:16 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)r( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-DLkg6oBJuLyE@localhost>i  = On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:43:05, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian i Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:    ..  H > >or something of that ilk. The allocation size of 18 blocks intrigues  > >me tho'._ > >_ > >Cheers - Dave.e > ' > 18?  It's probably just a BIG disk.    > M > Disk AX200$DKB600:, device type SEAGATE ST19171N, is online, mounted, file-i >   :n >   :iQ >     Total blocks            17783112    Sectors per track                   168g >   :  >   : Q >     Cluster size                  18    Transaction count                     1e >   :e >   :u >  >  > Or...R >  > O > Disk VS3100$DKB100:, device type SEAGATE SX910800N, is online, mounted, file-9 >   :b >   :sQ >     Total blocks            17755614    Sectors per track                   133e >   :t >   :gQ >     Cluster size                  17    Transaction count                     1  >   :  >   :o >  > M > When disks get up into the 9+GB range, the cluster allocation sizes can getvN > to be rather large and certainly not ideal for lots and lots of little 1 and > 2 block files. >   B I suppose it computes. Once upon a time 3 blocks got allocated on E 1/2Gb disks. The disk is now 4,5 or more times bigger so the initial   size gets bigger too :-)   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:58:51 +0010k% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aue( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day5 Message-ID: <01K15S4CHZO2009QNW@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>t   Dave,e  C >I suppose it computes. Once upon a time 3 blocks got allocated on tF >1/2Gb disks. The disk is now 4,5 or more times bigger so the initial  >size gets bigger too :-)t  ( It's not a linear computation seemingly.  Q I have a .4Gb disk which takes 3 as a cluster size, a 2GB which takes 5 and 9GBs rQ which take 18.  The only lineararity that I know is 9 -> 18Gb is (default) 18 -> i 36 cluster size.  ? [Damn, I wish I had the docs to remember where the formula is.]u   Regards, Paddy   Paddy O'Brien, Transmission Development,c
 TransGrid, PO Box A1000, Sydney South,  NSW 2000, Australiaa   Tel:   +61 2 9284-3063 Fax:   +61 2 9284-3050& Email: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au  M Either "\'" or "\s" (to escape the apostrophe) seems to work for most people,s; but that little whizz-bang apostrophe gives me little spam.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:19:57 +0000 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>( Subject: Re: [fun] DCL minute of the day8 Message-ID: <h3sratcf27bipstjrfp3drbhtmcdq3qnht@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:58:51 +0010, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aue wrote:  D >>I suppose it computes. Once upon a time 3 blocks got allocated on G >>1/2Gb disks. The disk is now 4,5 or more times bigger so the initial K >>size gets bigger too :-) >d) >It's not a linear computation seemingly.C >yR >I have a .4Gb disk which takes 3 as a cluster size, a 2GB which takes 5 and 9GBs R >which take 18.  The only lineararity that I know is 9 -> 18Gb is (default) 18 ->  >36 cluster size.a >w@ >[Damn, I wish I had the docs to remember where the formula is.]  C You could have forced your 400Mb disk to a cluster size of 1 - 3 is F simply the default minimum.  The formula is in HELP INIT /CLUSTER, andG basically states you can only (pre-7.2) have at most 255*4096 clusters.w@ So, divide your disk size in blocks by that value, and round up.  F Or, figure 2 blocks per Gb of disk.  Your 2Gb disk must be *just* over the limit for 4-block clusters.r     	John  -- "
 John Laird   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:49:43 GMT>, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>6 Subject: Re: [INFO] ES40 EV67 is faster than its clock& Message-ID: <3AAE0938.1C3118C5@gmx.ch>  % Thank you very much. I do appreciate.    D.   Rob Young wrote: > h http://groups.google.com/groups?q=random+group:comp.os.vms&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=1&seld=923218280&ic=1 >f   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:28:21 +0100d! From: "Luc BEDU" <bedu@promod.fr>e0 Subject: Re: [Q] tape allocated and process gone6 Message-ID: <98kpaj$ige$1@news.entreprises.cegetel.fr>  * Thanks for all. i'll work on this subject.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.144 ************************