1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 19 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 156       Contents:< Boch Emulator - was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements?@ Re: DECnet V on a hobbyist system vs replacing it with DECnet IVP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)N RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educati	onalProgram) Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven! ! FTP Performance: UCX vs. Multinet < Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMSP Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toP Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toP Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toP Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toP Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS andMarketing go tog IPP: Internet Printing Protocol # Re: IPP: Internet Printing Protocol # Re: IPP: Internet Printing Protocol / Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet? / Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet? < Re: Looking for Installation & Operations Guide for VAX 3100 Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.2  Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.2 ! Re: Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.2 ! Re: Obtaining 7.2-1 and TCPIP 5.1 " Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts" Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts/ Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage / Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program B Re: OpenVMS Educational Program: Looking a Gift Horse in the MouthB Re: OpenVMS Educational Program: Looking a Gift Horse in the Mouth oracle question  Re: oracle question  Re: oracle question  Re: oracle question # Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions M Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions (was: Re: The Chris and Bill show. Act II   Re: Possible security hole in...* Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE SSU software Re: SSU software Re: SSU software THE EMC Chronicles) Trade Alpha software distribution for VAX  Re: uVax3100 m10 & VMS5.2  Re: uVax3100 m10 & VMS5.2 : VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)> Re: VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)/ Re: What databases are still available on vms ? . Re: [BUG] RPC code output example wrong in doc! Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing ! Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing ! Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 09:30:23 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) E Subject: Boch Emulator - was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? 3 Message-ID: <VGsXPMk3T1WR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   , In article <3AB2BE29.7F6D8A67@infopuls.com>,- Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.company> asks:  > 7 > Yup, it is, someway. Could you tell me what BOCHS is?   L BOCHS is an Opensource SHAREWARE x86 emulator that runs on various operating systems, primarily UN*X types.  J It should show up in a search for "Intel" and "Emulator".  The last time I> checked, the web page was not available, but the FTP site was.  G IIRC: To get the license terms and conditions, you must unpack the kit.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:19:27 +0000   From: steven.reece@quintiles.comI Subject: Re: DECnet V on a hobbyist system vs replacing it with DECnet IV H Message-ID: <OF7A36B84D.C7B6E5B9-ON80256A14.00385347@qedi.quintiles.com>  G I think Robert made all the same comments that I would.  Maybe it's not 1 just me that likes DECnet-Plus after all?!!!! :-) I The only item that may be important for Christof is that DECNETT_REGISTER I will only go into the menu-driven interface if it knows what the terminal K type is.  If you just get a prompt from DECNET_REGISTER then you need to do E a set terminal/inquire or explicitly set up the device type yourself.    Steve.  9 Robert Deininger (rdeninger at mindspring dot com) wrote:  >>>$ MCR DECNET_REGISTERC This is the way to add node/address information.  It's an SMG-style # menu-driven application by default.  <trim> <<<    ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 14:15:25 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgram 3 Message-ID: <99549t$c43$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>   , In article <3AB2B51B.DFBACEBB@infopuls.com>,, 	Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: > Brian Wheeler wrote: >>  / >> In article <3AB16B4A.2B1C5602@infopuls.com>, 6 >>         Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> writes: >>  	 >> [snip] 	 >> [snip] U >> >> What function should we used the decommissioned VMS machine for?  Great, stable K >> >> OS...but without software, what's the point of keeping it plugged in?  >> > >> > Good point but not helpful because as you already pointed out: VMS is more expensive anyway and with steadily increasing power of once weak machines you don't need the more expensive machines now where they have been necessary before.  >>  > >> So where is VMS the right tool and unix not the right tool? > S > Where you want to a stable and easy to administer environment with good VMS apps.   M Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not.  What VMS apps?     > y>> > UNIX is crap from its (missing) architecture a.s.o.. I don't repeat it. It will be crap even if it runs forever. If you only put a DB on it, if you don't have any administration to do on this host, if you don't need any VMSish features like clustering and it's unreavaled power to efficiently manage and provide resources to a lot of users there is really no need for VMS.  >>  K >> So then, unix isn't crap if it does the job.  That's what its all about.  > ? > I don't think so. I'm also interested what is under the hood.    Fair enough.   > R >> Speaking of clusters, unix isn't as far behind as you'd like to believe.  ThereP >> are free (though admittedly somewhat young) High Availabilty, Load Balancing,M >> and Single-Image clustering solutions for Linux today...not to mention the ) >> ones that are from commercial vendors.  > K > The architecture is still the same and the other "features" I criticised.  > [>> > What most people posting to this topic don't understand is that competing with UNIX using quickshot ported UNIX apps is a deadend. Unwillingly you proved what I tried to explain because with that very same example the apps availability wasn't the reason. Instead it was basically what I said: having an app which makes no use of VMS features.  >>  P >> VMS is a dead end no matter what, unless by some miracle it becomes the rightQ >> tool for more jobs.  Otherwise its a niche player, and like every niche player N >> before it, the niche will disappear.  Then what?  Then your much hated UnixM >> is the only player left...serving the niche market which was once VMS's as $ >> well as a bunch of other markets. >  > Sad enough, but not a technical point. If the world doesn't want one of the best OSs and the by far better OS than UNIX the world doesn't deserve it. It's that simple. Every community has the leaders it deserves. >  >> >> >> > - Writing SW for a niche is the stupidest thing you can do. SW should be sold to as many customers as possible because copying SW is almost free. >> >> >>T >> >> >> YEP, WRITING SOFTWARE FOR NICHE MARKETS IS STUPID, WHICH IS WHY VMS IS VERYQ >> >> >> NEARLY DEAD.  If the COE initiative allows 'commodity' unix source to be F >> >> >> compiled on VMS then VMS is that much less of a niche player. >> >> >  >> >> > Idiot. *IDIOT*.  >> >> - >> >> Is this because I don't agree with you?  >> >>> > No, because you obviously don't think before you write down an argument. Besides that you don't take into account what is related with the COE stuff you exhange the roles of the Q and the SW shops. The COE stuff is the SW which the Q writes and which is aimed for a niche market. Read Fred Kleinsorges very much telling post about this subject. This initiative will help in putting VMS in even more a niche. >>  L >> Ah, but the tools needed to make COE feasable to maintain (the unix apis)M >> benefit all SW vendors who want to port their software to VMS.  Its not so 4 >> much about COE as it is about the infrastructure. >  > Let's see when and if it's available to the SW vendors. I'm not sure if I understood Fred Kleinsorge correctly. It seems that for some time the UNIX API won't in the core VMS.   < Agreed.  Then we can argue about if its a good or bad thing.   > a >> >> > VMS is not dead. VMS is artificially made to a niche OS by several other idiots like you.  >> >> T >> >> Like ME?  I think not.  VMS has been artificially made into a niche OS becauseR >> >> many proponents (such as yourself) believe with all your heart that anythingP >> >> not VMS is evil and that it must be crap.  VMS is niche because it doesn't* >> >> implement common standards.  Period. >> >+>> > You are a good example of denying history. Firstly: there are other ideas/OSs worth to look at - surely *not* UNIX; that's what I stated. Secondly: the standards argument is stupid because there are several examples in history that having your own solution is not a problem. Ever heard Windoze?  >>  G >> Yeah, and apparently unlike you, I'm not ignorant on how it became a N >> standard.  It was forcefully bundled with mass market OEM machines.  MS wasP >> weilding monopoly power in the DOS market to force windows onto users whetherO >> they wanted it or not.  When enough installs were out there, *ONLY THEN* was P >> it a successful platform to write to.  VMS is very different in this respect:G >> realistically one vendor for hardware, very small market share, etc.  >  > While this paragraph is also what I think is the truth it sadly enough isn't related to my argument and doesn't help you in defending your position. Rember - we were talking about the word "proprietary".   K Yes.  You were arguing that proprietary doesn't matter if you've got market & share.  VMS doesn't have market share.     > ? >> >> >Study history! Stay away from VMS, you don't deserve it!  >> >> L >> >> Why don't I deserve it?  Is it because I see the value in other tools?T >> >> I have studied history.  I've been using VMS for years...longer than I've beenT >> >> using unix...however I use unix for nearly all of my tasks now.  Why?  Because# >> >> that's where the software is.  >> >4 >> > Point well taken. But not VMS' technical fault. >>    >> Very true.  We agree on this. >>   >> > >> >> > Use UNIX! Use UNIX SW. >> >>  >> >> I do, and so do you. >> > >> > Unfortunately I have to.  >> > >> >> Q >> >> [[off topic:  please wrap your lines at 75 chars, these long lines are very ' >> >>   annoying, not to mention rude]]  >> >>> > [[off topic also: you are the fourth person complaining about my long lines. I decided not to put in artifical line breaks because this should be the task of the rendering engine (like with HTML). Robert Deininger used to post these long lines also and then I thought through and came to the conclusion that I would adjust my news reader to put in these line breakes. Would you like to adjust your reader the same way?]]  >>  Q >> If more than one person is complaining, then maybe its not everyone else.  Not - >> everyone uses Netscape to view their news.  > x > Okay. But what is the best configuration to avoid artificial line breaks leaving sometimes only a few words on a line?   Beats me, I use emacs.   >  >> >> >> > - Offering bad ways like UNIX shells to accomplish tasks is a safe method to kill the productivity of VMS. Today we know how things are solved properly. Tomorrow we will never know. >> >> >>S >> >> >> Get off it.  UNIX != "bad ways", no matter how many times you keep telling U >> >> >> yourself that.  Its different.  That's all.  VMS has one bad side to it:  no U >> >> >> matter how well designed it is, it is PROPRIETARY.  Unix, as a whole is not, V >> >> >> which gives it a huge advantage in my book over VMS.  With unix I can move to< >> >> >> another vendor if there are quality or cost issues. >> >> > R >> >> > You don't understand a clue. This proprietary argument has long disproved. >> >> R >> >> Disproved?  How?  VMS is proprietary.  This is a fact.  When you have sourceN >> >> code on VMS is cannot be compiled anywhere else without massive changes.N >> >> Properly written unix apps (and there are quite a few) can be recompiledN >> >> with little or no change from one unix to another.  This is also a fact.) >> >> How can this possibly be disproved?  >> >>> > This can't. Proprietary is a word to denote undocumented (API wise) or niche products. This isn't a technical argument. And as another poster pointed out VMS was one of the first OSs beeing certified by the Open Group (or something similar). There are several standards even open standards that are severely broken. Your proprietary argument isn't worth anything. Do you understand this? Do we agree?  >>  K >> We agree, but only to an extent.  VMS is proprietary in that there is no L >> independant (i.e. not controlled by compaq) which says "this is VMS".  ItJ >> is available from only one vendor, and is not compatible with any other? >> system at the source level (except for very trivial things).  > > Agreed. But I stay to what I wrote: this isn't a technical argument. And it's per se not even an economical argument as we can see with Micro$oft and to some extend with Apple which uses its beeing different (read proprietary) to certain degree as marketing.  J MS forced marketshare to create a de-facto standard.  VMS doesn't have theL marketshare to do this.  Apple had obvious benefits over DOS, which negated N its proprietary disadvantage.  VMS may have advantages over Unix, but they're ; not "obvious", so its proprietary nature is a disadvantage.   6 Its not a simple black and white issue, as we've seen.     > \ >> > BTW I don't buy your recompilation argument because there are too many counterexamples. >>  L >> Show me some, then.  I put the clause "well written" in there on purpose.L >> Anyone can write a program which will only compile on a certain platform.L >> There are several methods of writing programs which will run on more thanL >> one unix without the need to rework it substantially.  Autoconf is one of >> these methods.  > > This is true but there are many quirks necessary to have a large app compile on different UNIX flavours. Even well designed and well implemented C apps (oxymoron, I know) need substantial maintenance to be portable in that sense. Have you ever read these C header files with these endless #ifdefs and #defines coping with the small but tedious (and from my point of view unecessary) differences? I can only say: ugly!   7 Ugly, perhaps.  But C isn't the only language for apps.      >  >> >> > UNIX and Windoze are another form of beeing proprietary with UNIX having the disadvantage of never beeing the same if you change the vendor. >> >> M >> >> Are they as great as when you move from VMS to anything else?  Not even P >> >> close.  The difference between unixes is trivial at best for the end user,8 >> >> and only require a bit of effort for the sysadmin. >> > >> > Yes - the differences between the UNIXes are much smaller than between VMS and UNIX. What a surprise! VMS isn't UNIX? Why isn't UNIX implementing the Windoze API. There is the vast majority of apps!  >>  N >> The WINE project is implementing the windows api on unix. Corel has used itN >> to port several applications to linux via a recompile.  Also, products such* >> as WindU has been doing this for years. > > I know WINE and WABI - good approaches but there is something wrong. Both never took off. It's similar to the FX32! although the FX32! was even much better. It seems to me very interesting that the emulation approach isn't very popular at the moment. Instead the trend is towards using universal library APIs like Qt and providing apps on all major platforms (no, not including VMS).p+ > Have you good experiences with WINE apps?n  M Yes.  They're not perfect, but they're not awful, either.  WINE also compilesSM to native libraries, so when you write a win api app, you can recompile it oneE any platform that WINE supports...so its not just an emulation issue.v     > />> > The differences for using the UNIX commands are painful (for the end user - what is an end user of an OS anyway?) - especially for two widely used commands: "find" and "ps". Compare the option on Linux and Solaris. Are these the same commands? One might find it doubtful if you look at the options.e >>  M >> Ok, lets look at ps first.  Common usage is either 'ps' or 'ps -ef'.  Lets & >> compare the output of 'ps' first... >> M >> SOLARIS:o >>    PID TTY      TIME CMDr >>  17092 pts/1    0:01 bash  >>  17100 pts/1    2:08 emacs-20 >> r	 >> Linux:o >>   PID TTY          TIME CMD >>  6369 pts/0    00:00:00 bashn >>  6382 pts/0    00:00:00 ps  >> oP >> I don't see any real difference (except the commands being run are different) >> n >> ok, "ps -ef"n >> SOLARIS: 5 >>      UID   PID  PPID  C    STIME TTY      TIME CMDr7 >>     root     0     0  0   Jan 24 ?        0:24 sched = >>     root     1     0  0   Jan 24 ?        0:04 /etc/init -u9 >>     root     2     0  0   Jan 24 ?        0:21 pageouto: >>     root     3     0  0   Jan 24 ?       132:15 fsflushI >>     root   261     1  0   Jan 24 ?        0:00 /usr/lib/saf/sac -t 300e@ >>     root   199     1  0   Jan 24 ?        0:00 /usr/lib/utmpd >> [you get the idea]p >> S	 >> Linux: 6 >> UID        PID  PPID  C STIME TTY          TIME CMD; >> root         1     0  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:06 init [5] < >> root         2     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:10 [kflushd]< >> root         3     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:01:11 [kupdate]: >> root         4     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:00 [kpiod]; >> root         5     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:12 [kswapd]e@ >> root         6     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:00 [mdrecoveryd]: >> bin        337     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:00 portmap: >> root       352     1  0 Mar01 ?        00:00:00 [lockd] >> [etc] >> .N >> Ok, there are some differences:  time is listed differently, and linux usesM >> '[]' to denote a swapped out process.  These are not critical differences.  > E > I don't fight for these small differences. This example is for you.s > But I'm not sure if your statistics is correct. I use ps -aux on Linux which doesn't work on the Solaris version I'm using (2.6). I studied the man page for ps on Solaris and found that the option set is *very* different from the Linux one.  E Its a BSD vs SYSV issue.  Linux allows either set of options, but the-N 'default' solaris one allows only one set.  If you put /usr/ucb (The BSD styleD utils) in the head of your path, ps -aux works just fine on solaris.     > K >> Sure, they have different 'exotic' features, but lets face it, the basic- >> functionality is the same.a > a > This is true. But I think this isn't very helpful as most people need additional functionality.s > H >> For find, there are more differences, but the basic usage is the same9 >> regardless of platform:  find <dir> -name "<filename>"o > "> Honestly the basic functionality isn't very helpful. Especially the combination with grep is often needed. How can you case insensitively search on Solaris? Linux: find <dir> -iname '<filename>'. What about the time window -mmin <time1> -mmax <time2>? How is this accomplished on Solaris?E > Honestly the quotation needed to make find work with grep is silly.  > And why do I have to use this -exec option at all. Why can't I use pipeing the list of file names found by "find" into grep???   You can: 	find / | grep -i filename should work just fine.     > M >> This works the same on all unixes I've dealt with.  Again, its an issue oflL >> 'exotic' features...sort of like when you use VMS 5.5 and bitch about not >> having 'PIPE'.  > ! > Sorry? Do you really mean that?e   :)  Sort of.     > Q >> >> > If 60% of market were owned by VMS nobody would talk about proprietarity.  >> >> Q >> >> Ah, but it is not at 60%.  I doubt even 10%.  It is proprietary, regardless  >> >> of market size.n >> > >> > You again missed the point. Windoze is also proprietary as is UNIX. What makes you claim that UNIX isn't proprietary? What makes you think that this is an advantage? >>  J >> If I had the itch, I could implement a unix of my own.  It is very nearN >> impossible to make a windows clone.  It is only slightly less impossible toM >> make a VMS clone.  Unix is a class of operating systems, not a single one.a > | > I don't agree besides the last statement which is awfully true and reveals at the same time the whole UNIX business pitty. > What makes you think that it's anything harder to make Windoze clone than a UNIX clone? And isn't VMS certified as "open"? What does this mean? Doesn't it mean that the interfaces are well documented, stable and published?  N Take a quick peek at the wine archives and see how often the documentation forL windows is wrong, incomplete, or misleading.  Windows defines itself as Open1 as well...these days 'open' doesn't mean a thing.y     > A >> >> > Read the UNIX-Haters Handbook! Leave VMS alone! Use UNIX!a >> >>nS >> >> Ah, the source of your misguidance.  Maybe this quote from the "Anti-Forward"n) >> >> will shed some light on this issue: P >> >>         Dennis Ritchie writes "You claim to seek progress, but you succeed! >> >>         mainly in whining."nQ >> >> I have read it.  Its crap.  It bitches and moans about everything, yet manymO >> >> of its complaints are "fixed" in most unixes.  In addition, if one wanted L >> >> to, it would be easy to write a "VMS-Hater's Handbook".  But its not aP >> >> matter of hating anything:  its about choosing the right tool for the job.A >> >> VMS is rapidly becoming less and less often the right tool.  >> > Beause you made it so?n >> > >> > If you really have read it (not only the Anti-Forward) then you would know that it's not about hating for the sake of hating. >> eQ >> Indeed, its about complaining.  "Waaa!  It doesn't do what I thought it should'P >> so its broken!" (or:  "Waa!  There's another way to do this, so its broken!")@ >> Don't get me wrong, there are some valid criticisms, but manyR >> of them are toolset issues.  Want a standard user experience across all unixes?P >> Install the GNU tools everywhere...magically most of the complaints addressed >> are solved. >>  >> > It clearly shows what sucks and why. And I read it only last year after my painful experiences with UNIX and I found it very true (nothing about the fixes you mentioned generaly). Would you like to go through the book together with me and check what has been fixed? Has the shell command interpretation concept been fixed? No! Have the command and parameter irregularities been fixed?rV >> > No! Has the 'every file is an unstructured stream of bytes' model been fixed? No! >> iJ >> Please explain to me why a file as stream of bytes is broken.  It was a= >> design (yes DESIGN) decision, and not subject to "fixing".a > > We went throught that already. BTW design as no-design is simply to genious. What is design if you don't do anything? Okay if this was intentionally it could be called design. But from history you would know: it simply wasn't. Nothing with UNIX was design. >  >>  F >> > Please name the three most important things that have been fixed. >>  Q >> Its been years since I read it.  Why don't you point out the three biggest andsP >> I'll discuss them.  Mostly its about the userspace tools.  GNU tools fix most* >> of the issues (where there are issues). > 6 > I mentioned several in the post you are replying to. >  >> >> >> > I'm too tired to continue this list. Every educated engineer will understand that this is a major attempt to kill VMS.. >> >> >>V >> >> >> If by "educated" you mean "anything but pure VMS is evil and we don't need toP >> >> >> be interoperable with anyone but ourselves", then I guess you're right. >> >> >u >> >> > Silly. >> >> N >> >> Yes, your attitude is silly.  You have yet to show that adding unix apisO >> >> kills VMS.  If they started removing VMS apis, then yes, I could see youroI >> >> point.  But as it stands, they're adding to, and not removing from.n >> >* >> > Do you know Occam's Razor? See below! >> eO >> Yes, I do.  In this case, the "simpler" solution is to add a new API and not % >> remove valid APIs from the kernel.  > U > But it is even simpler and better (as I pointed out several times) not to add them.  >  >> >> >> > My hope and wish: the good VMS engineers stay with the normal version. The COE version will be so crappy and full of bugs that it will never be usable. >> >> >>W >> >> >> This is an interesting statement.  So, anything Unixy is so inheritly unstableiQ >> >> >> that just by implementing it brings the whole OS down?  You're on crack. U >> >> >> If they do a shit-awful job of bringing unix services to vms, then its theira# >> >> >> own damned fault.  Period.e >> >> >l>> >> > Stupid. As explained several times: introducing unecessary complexity, superflous or redundant functions and ways to accomplish tasks which are in contradiction to the desing principles of VMS is a safe way to ruin it all. This has nothing to do with implementation quality. >> >+ >> >> I'll thank you not to call me stupid.  >> >, >> > Please take your time before you write. >> hP >> Believe it or not, I do think quite a bit about what you write...though oftenM >> its so full of insults (to me, unix users, world in general) that its hard  >> to see past them. > > Don't take it personal. You aren't UNIX. If I criticise UNIX it's because it sucks and I've lost too much time in believing its simplistic anti-philosophy. If I insult you than because you do so to me in constantly avoiding arguing to the point. I offered to agree on practical testing - no reaction. Do you know any board of engineers, independant from UNIX and VMS, to which we could presented our arguments?  N Ok, fair enough.  I've been abusive, and I'll stop it.  It seemed the only way. to reply to your opinions of anything non-VMS.       > 2 >> >> It has everything to do with implementation!D >> > I wrote "implementation quality" not implementation in general. >> >R >> >>                                              If the UNIX api is added to VMSS >> >> via a set of libraries, then it is no more redundant or more complex than any  >> >> other RTL! >> >} >> > I wrote this before. But we don't know yet. So it's far too early to applause and we should know how it is accomplished.n >> W. >> EXACTLY.  Its also far to early to condemn. >  > Not sure. If time and effort is spent on this the wrong way its now time to point to this risk. And I reacted on the applauses. If nobody would have said an enthusiastic word about this I may have stayed quietly.  M Ok, fair enough, but its far too easy for those applauses to turn into throwng fruit if they do a shitty job.     > R >> >>             If something in the kernel has to change, then it is an issue ofR >> >> the kernel not being flexible enough to accomplish the task at hand.  If theS >> >> task at hand was for anything non-unix-api related, you'd probably be all forp >> >> a change in the kernel.h >> >>> > The problem with the implementation in the kernel is that I expect a few UNIX calls to interfere with VMS calls. If you want to access the same resource with the UNIX API from within one program and with the VMS API from within another program. I expect problems that the semantics of these accesses are different and exclude each other. Which results in a severe implementation design problem.  >>  L >> Do you know this for a fact?  We don't know what they're going to do, andK >> assuming they're competent (which I do), they'll make the right choices.v >  > Agreed, if there is a way out. Sometimes you end up in unsolvable problems. This is more likely if the concepts you try to mix are more or less against each other.e  L No arguments there.  If they compromise, I suspect they'll compromise on the side of VMS.   > S >> >> >> Attitudes like this is why VMS is dead.  Its a wonder that TCP/IP was ever O >> >> >> added to VMS with attitudes like this....DECNet is the pure networkingm9 >> >> >> protocol!  LAT is the way to true enlightenment!t >> >> > >> >> > Do you like democracy?? You know, the kind of organising a state in which the people who have money buy the people who simulate decision processes (politicians) or a dumb majority can decide if one plus one is three or four? Is TCP/IP better because the majority is using it?t >> >> J >> >> Is VMS better because nobody is using it?   Quality is not inversely >> >> proportional to usage. >> > >> > Argh - yes, but no point!! Did I say or imply this? Did you say that DECnet should have to be replaced by TCP/IP because this is the (majority) standard? >> sJ >> You implied that things chosen by the majority are corrupt and or lower >> quality.S >  > No - instead I implied that majority decisions don't warrant quality. And I admit I normally expect that the majority is wrong (Hollywood movies, Windoze, Macdonalds, cars). But basically I prefer analysis - not marketing arguments. >   J Same here...just because the overall trend does tend to show that the more= quantity is the lower quality, there's no direct correlation.>  R >> >> >> WAIT A MINUTE!  If VMS is so great, and unix so bad, why is it that I spy# >> >> >> this line in your headers:i >> >> >>@ >> >> >> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i586) >> >> >>Q >> >> >> Huh.  Looks like you're just a troll...or a hypocrite.  Not only are youn? >> >> >> using a unix to do your mail, you're doing it on a PC.  >> >> >>
 >> >> >> Ugh.e >> >> >> Brian >> >> >f >> >> > As I stated several months ago: I'm in a process of moving back to VMS because I'm tired of the wrong promises of UNIX land. UNIX is crap. Believe me! I have 7 years first hand experience mostly with Solaris and Linux, but some others also. >> >>iP >> >> Which promises are those?  Why did you switch from VMS in the first place? >> > >> > Because I changed my working place. I first used CDC and DEC. Then Apple, then PC, then Mac, then PC, then Solaris, Linux, Solaris. My private SW is running on Linux and/or VMS. >> >S >> >> In the 7 years did you attempt to learn why Unix does things the way it does,eT >> >> or did you just sit and complain about how "its no VMS"?  I'm serious, I wouldM >> >> like to know.  I (and many others) made a transition from VMS or PCs or L >> >> whatever to Unix without the obvious hatred you seem to be displaying. >> >%>> > I'm an intested type of person. I learned UNIX with great enthusiasm. The promises were it is elegant, simple and reliable. When using the PC I constantly thought about VMS. With UNIX it was different. Only after the mentioned 7 years and reading the mentioned book I became a UNIX hater.u >> sF >> That's odd, because I find unix far simpler to understand than VMS. > .> As I pointed out: people are different. But besides that the design criticism is beyound liking or disliking. In fact this is an explanation why UNIX sucks so much. What is difficult with VMS to understand? What about the CLI? Do you like shells better than DCL? Do you think man is better than HELP?  O No, Help is truly wonderful, but it doesn't allow me to search it for keywords,fM but man does.  There are pros and cons to each (though, universally, GNU info 
 sucks).     E The kernel structure of Unix is easier to understand, at least on theI conceptual level.W     > c >> >> > I also publicly offered to put money into a fund to get a full VMS Opera port. No response.n >> >> >rY >> >> > Do you know on what platform Navigator has been developed? Could it be UNIX crap?u >> >> > Navigator is crap. I use it to avoid Micro$oft although some people say the IE is the better browser. If there is a decent VMS browser available I'll switch to that.u >> >>FO >> >> So, we come back to the core of the problem:  lack of available software.rQ >> >> Whether something was built on unix doesn't make it crap, anymore than unix 9 >> >> as a whole is crap.  Why don't you write a browser?r >> >K >> > Good question. Because I have *other* things to do. Do you understand?  >> rM >> Of course I do.  However, others have other things to do, and supporting ai( >> small-user-base OS isn't one of them. >  > Not a technical point.  O True, its not.  But it is a valid point:  people aren't going to write softwareeK for a platform (regardless of its quality) if there aren't very many people  there to use it.   > : >> >> > Do you think that your contribution has any value? >> >>.P >> >> Yes, in fact I do.   You know, at first I thought you were just a mindlessK >> >> anti-unix troll.  But then I came to a startling realization:  you'rerO >> >> just close minded.  Computers are just tools.  You pick the one that doessP >> >> the job the best *FOR YOU*.  If VMS does the job for you (which apparentlyL >> >> it doesn't, as you're using a unix browser) then that's great.  VMS isL >> >> lacking in several areas for me (and others), which is why I think theS >> >> COE initiative is a good thing.  I think VMS is a great operating system, andrQ >> >> I'd hate to see it go away.  But, that doesn't mean that I think everything O >> >> else sucks.  There is room in computing for more than one OS...right toolrU >> >> for the job.  VMS is no longer the right tool for many applications, and addingnA >> >> unix APIs would be a step towards making it the right tool.  >> >>> > Think about the business case. I'm sure it isn't there. The initiative will bring some UNIX apps but they will run unsatisfying and have a lot of bugs which will show up only on VMS. In the mid-term there will no more usable SW on VMS than without this COE initiative, maybe even fewer because the genuine VMS apps might have been changed to the more portable API and will then mainly be supported on UNIXes. Did you ever consider this effect? >>  J >> Yes, I did.  But I don't think it changes anything.  Answer this: is noK >> software better than (possibly) buggy software?  VMS isn't going to have:M >> any new VMS-only software regardless of the COE initiative.  At least with>K >> it, there's the possibility that more people would be exposed to VMS andOP >> possibly incorporate some of VMS's strong points into their software.  Hiding9 >> VMS in the corner isn't going to bring new developers.d > > If the COE initiative were the only way to get more VMS apps then VMS is doomed. I doubt that. I expect a few companies developing "best on VMS" software (slogan: yes, it runs on UNIX but better on VMS) and I expect new VMS customers. But I'm not sure. Compaq can kill all.   N I'm not seeing it, which is why I feel that COE may be the only way for VMS to get new users.   > k >> > UNIX isn't the right tool even if it is sometimes the only tool because it lets too much to wish left.i >>  G >> I disagree.  Any tool is the right tool, compared to no tool at all.t >  > Maybe you are right. But having buggy UNIX crap apps on VMS only looks like having tools. And these buggy apps can even destroy VMS reputation (no, not the reputation of not having any apps around). >   F No arguments there.  But since they're optional, and the user will be N installing them, its their call.  But, you're right, it leads to the "anythingO via telnet sucks"-syndrome that windows users have because they've got a shittyn default telnet client.    R >> >> I suppose we should just agree to disagree:  I think adding Unix APIs to VMSR >> >> would be a good thing, and you think it'd be a bad thing.  I suppose there'sK >> >> no further need for discussing this, since neither of us are going to  >> >> convince the other.  >> >>a >> >> Briann >> >>> > Probably. But I don't see why you think VMS is great and shouldn't vanish if you even like the few most ugly thinks of UNIX like the shell and the API and the simplistic approach (e.g. files as structureless streams of byte).  Why are you here in this NG? >> SN >> Its not impossible to see the beauty in two different methods.  Its easy toL >> see advantages to both methods, and disadvantages.  But it all boils down+ >> to the right tool (as I've said before).> >> h >> Brian >  > These general statements don't tell me much. What are the points which attract you to VMS after you mostly switched to UNIX and wrt the fact that your experience is that VMS is harder to understand than UNIX?  O I like the VMS command line, though its probably because of nostalgia.  I wroteoJ quite a bit of DCL.  Its a quality OS, that in itself makes it attractive.   Briann   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 10:28:02 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramh3 Message-ID: <R+Zt7DPvAkxI@eisner.encompasserve.org>k  ` In article <99549t$c43$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes: > O > Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not.m > What VMS apps?  G Ever try to find out what printer a queue on HP-UX is driving when it'sd not working?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupNE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 08:34:22 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)mY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)t3 Message-ID: <iwvD2TqaaQKY@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  I In article <3ab3fa4a@monitor.lanset.com>, j1234@sfsu.redirect.edu writes:f0 > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: > M >>> In the present example (ps on unix, show system on VMS) I know there is auM >>> good API in VMS.  I'm ignorant about unix.  If there is is NOT a standardlN >>> (across many unixes) API to retrieve detailed process information, then itK >>> is a technical deficiency of unix compared to VMS, for the reasons I've 
 >>> outlined.r > @ >> There is no such standard API.  Maybe with COE we'll get one. > H >  opendir(3), defined by SVID 3, POSIX (no document given), and BSD 4.3/ >  according to the documentation on my system.D  G What in the world has opendir() got to do with the data returned by ps?e  F If you peruse the source for top, monitor, and some of the other toolsG which return data similar to ps you'll find major differences for everys UNIX that's supported.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 08:34:49 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)i3 Message-ID: <Qkbos8Tutbpr@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  I In article <3ab3fe58@monitor.lanset.com>, j1234@sfsu.redirect.edu writes:f  > j1234@sfsu.redirect.edu wrote: > I >>  opendir(3), defined by SVID 3, POSIX (no document given), and BSD 4.3u4 > oops, somehow substituted 'p' with 'l'.  nevermind >    OK, ignore last question.h  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group'E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:43:30 -0500h2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS    EducationalProgram)dL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1903011143300001@user-2ive7gk.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <Qkbos8Tutbpr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  K > In article <3ab3fe58@monitor.lanset.com>, j1234@sfsu.redirect.edu writes:>" > > j1234@sfsu.redirect.edu wrote: > > K > >>  opendir(3), defined by SVID 3, POSIX (no document given), and BSD 4.3 6 > > oops, somehow substituted 'p' with 'l'.  nevermind > >  >  > OK, ignore last question.    Sorry for being thick, but...n  < What does changing 'p' to 'l' have to do with ps or opendir?  G Yes, unix is just as clear to a non-expert as is VMS.  (If you have then secret decoder ring, that is.)   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:27:59 -0600e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>hW Subject: RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Educati	onalProgram)eL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5491@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]   > Christopher Smith wrote:  F > > Softwindows, WABI, Wine, BOCHS, .... you tell me -- why isn't Unix! > > implementing the windows API?    > > Seems to me that it is.>  7 > Yup, it is, someway. Could you tell me what BOCHS is?a  K BOCHS is kind of a different approach -- it's a "DOS emulator" ... actuallyhJ more of a "wintel" emulator.  I've heard tales of it booting OS/2, windowsJ 95, and linux, and actually running to an extent, though I'm not sure what extent.k  . > I repeat here what I posted already - sorry:? > I know WINE and WABI - good approaches but there is somethingt@ > wrong. Both never took off. It's similar to the FX32! althoughA > the FX32! was even much better. It seems to me very interesting ? > that the emulation approach isn't very popular at the moment.I@ > Instead the trend is towards using universal library APIs likeA > Qt and providing apps on all major platforms (no, not including  > VMS).u  L Well, it's not necessarily a bad approach to provide standard interfaces.  II think that a mixture of the two would be even better.  On the other hand,i@ that's what Java is all about in a way, and it's way too slow :)  / > Have you had good experiences with WINE apps?I  I Well, in a way -- I've gotten several apps to run under wine as stably asoH they run under windows. :)  There's a lot missing in wine at this point, though, for windows 95 and up.  K The problem really is that I don't care to emulate an "office productivity" I type app.  So the word processing packages, and everything else that mosth1 people want wine to work with are useless for me.   G What I'd really like wine to do is drive hardware like digital cameras,SD parallel port scanners, etc, that I won't touch right now because it requires the use of windows.  L My most recent try with wine was a complete failure, actually.  I was tryingH to get wine to run apple's "newton backup utility" for windows so that I. could back my newton up -- didn't work at all.  H On the other hand, I've (just to prove it can be done) run programs likeL corel draw, which are very serious applications in their own right, and work
 just fine.  H Bringing the topic back around -- a VMS equivalent would be interesting.   Regards,   Chrish  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");b 'l   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 16:22:48 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>  Subject: Free The OpenVMS Seven!+ Message-ID: <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>   " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  ,                          Free The OpenVMS 7!-                         =====================h  A     [Or at least reduce the cost from the current King's Ransom.]   I As COV members have been pointing out since the beginning of time (if not H for longer), the bottom rungs on the VMS systems ladder are missing. YouJ don't need to be a rocket scientist to notice that no startup business canI get an affordable VMS system. If they could, they would be struggling  to K find entry-level staff (i.e. recent graduates) to administer the system forg them.t  I I nominate the following strategic targets for an entry level VMS system:    (a) Web Ready.  B * Capable of running a small general-purpose website for the small4   business with a Cable or xDSL Internet connection.A * Ready to handle staff and business email (say, not more than 15t   accounts).D * Acting as a small web-proxy and configurable filter to ensure best   use of limited net bandwidth.h   (b) Business Ready.   5 * Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses).n5 * Built-in patch retrieval and installation software.e7 * Simple (e.g. Pathworks v5) file serving capabilities. % * Automated backup software included.s9 * Low-cost basic training in simple administrative tasks.p   (c) Developer Ready.   * Give away (gasp!) DECC.n< * Perl and other web-friendly tools bundled with the system.B * Simple ring-bound manual(s) covering care, maintenance, and good2   security policies (Just like the good old days).  H Given the above system, I think any aspiring e-businessman would jump atB the chance to run the same OS as his favourite Wall Street Casino.  I Now, once you've built this lovely imaginary system, give the first 1,000rD away to major edjuyacashunal e-stablishments. (Don't forget the fullK licenses *and* software kits this time!) That should help to get the peopleuH who're going to run these systems trained. Plus it will aid in getting a- whole new batch of affordable apps developed.b  2 And if these newly developed apps are a bit rough?  G Fine! It'll keep Hoff and the rest of us busy topping up the retirement. funds.     Any other suggestions?     Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----i Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQEE7Af/Ss7vUingmcNaJqUGhdRZS6Fv+ZIG0VnI@ hMz3HKhXEto/0QZCVknzXy02D+amMj9glH26Hylo76Gn439LSSFSRWkKNcl8t8pa@ kCvcm0iW6lJzRuV3sy991zXYUemLvWhqxaheew9qjHSQ44aUJYeBS93Z26gXZzCi@ 2j0a5yc16G7L4BJlrjZUXpqwyPXuo8eYH/p8v8x8NjhX8WkcS3UBJcFBcRZLF+E3@ 6/r4dWKwrEDh5d7VSx3PTuFTYAi6zxL21pk1Io0U/CTHZ/sVIfmjmYH1L4b83wuE8 WAmR31UuHnJhOOJgxIkiJVNzgNMv35VjDr+PAJkGYF3bsXhjMcJI9A== =axj4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----u   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 17:12:07 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!, Message-ID: <995el7$ehg@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  b In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: >(b) Business Ready. >d6 >* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses).                ^^^^     D I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200 Billion USF dollars. For that much you could outright buy Compaq and Oracle, everyK Alpha ever made, a small country of support personnel, a nuclear powerplanteI and a spare (no single point of failure...), your own television network, K and, through campaign contributions,  de facto control of the Senate, House 1 and every other legislative body in the country. k  " What number did you really mean???   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edue? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech u   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:26:15 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010319122529.01977da0@24.8.96.48>  0 At 05:12 PM 3/19/2001 +0000, David Mathog wrote:8 >In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cypher , ><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: > >(b) Business Ready. > >u8 > >* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses). >                ^^^^t >nE >I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200 Billion USp	 >dollars.e  8 That looks like 2^11, not 2*10^11. 2^11 is only $1024...     					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------C2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunkl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:30:39 -0500e From: William_Bochnik@acml.com$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!> Message-ID: <OF72950DA4.CF626CD5-ON85256A14.00602855@acml.com>   try 2048        Z                                                                                           Z                     Dan Sugalski                                                          Z                     <dan@sidhe.or                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com               Z                     g>                           cc:                                      Z                                          Subject:     Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!         Z                     03/19/2001                                                            Z                     12:26 PM                                                              Z                                                                                           Z                                                                                                 0 At 05:12 PM 3/19/2001 +0000, David Mathog wrote:7 >In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cypherv, ><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: > >(b) Business Ready. > >i8 > >* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses). >                ^^^^e > : >I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200
 Billion US	 >dollars.   8 That looks like 2^11, not 2*10^11. 2^11 is only $1024...                              Dan  6 --------------------------------------"it's like this" ------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and eveni;                                       teddy bears get drunkf          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,:@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyt# all copies of the original message.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:42:47 -0500w" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org>$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010319124216.0229cbe8@24.8.96.48>  < At 12:30 PM 3/19/2001 -0500, William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:  	 >try 2048"  E Ah, it's within an order of magnitude. That's close enough, right? :)d  1 >At 05:12 PM 3/19/2001 +0000, David Mathog wrote: 9 > >In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cyphera. > ><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: > > >(b) Business Ready. > > >i: > > >* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses). > >                ^^^^i > > < > >I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200 >Billion US  > >dollars.o >r9 >That looks like 2^11, not 2*10^11. 2^11 is only $1024...l >  >i >                          Dan >e7 >--------------------------------------"it's like this"  >-------------------3 >Dan Sugalski                          even samuraio@ >dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even= >                                       teddy bears get drunkd >e >a >i >w >sG >______________________________________________________________________  >u; >The information contained in this transmission may containA= >privileged and confidential information and is intended onlya= >for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not thes= >intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible fore@ >delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,A >dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication ? >is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,hB >please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy$ >all copies of the original message.     					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------n2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even ;                                       teddy bears get drunkW   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 18:12:48 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!5 Message-ID: <20010319181248.3516.qmail@nym.alias.net>c  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  C On 19 Mar 2001, mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) wrote:r7 >In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cypher0, ><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: >>(b) Business Ready.j >>7 >>* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses).S >               ^^^^   >eE >I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200 Billion UStG >dollars. For that much you could outright buy Compaq and Oracle, everyiL >Alpha ever made, a small country of support personnel, a nuclear powerplantJ >and a spare (no single point of failure...), your own television network,L >and, through campaign contributions,  de facto control of the Senate, House2 >and every other legislative body in the country.  > # >What number did you really mean???  >p
 >David MathogG >mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu? >Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Calteche   Tut tut David!   No Billion in there at all.-  + 2^11 = 2048 = Two thousand and forty eight.5  I USD is the ISO code for United States Dollars, nothing fancier than that.      Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQHHMQf/Tmu8CxYU2MNSwSaWgscF2aD2mpBUMWhu@ YHS+a9+fbMsLIyFHPV1GHvNoHcmuoSd9QBe4UJN1mdu8ZWFHcsbDz+xJI6Teq7QP@ nozK+b7R8b1o+kJk04nOWm++QUgaoq2tm0PqaocINvB5EZ9SVoBZ1iwOFfOFJ6Iw@ 1k2nPUXSPY+OY4bAPzwnXX+N5r7i0WjbUMbknhyd1JyZMbd2NNrPGJ3rF5Q2oUmV@ suuGCJkWQeprh0wie5cOL5OQdz8LzP2YT2k0VavOL35Y4DCiR6Rny2Ar+E5SMrae8 oo4HjNZb0IFVqBjY/CAjcXFPz022Vz5+Vm412FLKvsFAvZ/vTAhjjA== =UuYbi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 18:20:19 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!5 Message-ID: <20010319182019.5968.qmail@nym.alias.net>o  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  8 On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> wrote:1 >At 05:12 PM 3/19/2001 +0000, David Mathog wrote:s9 >>In article <FreeThe.OpenVMS_7@nowhere.nil>, Doc.Cypher f- >><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:p >> >(b) Business Ready.r >> >9 >> >* Cost around 2^11 USD (**INCLUDING** User Licenses).- >>                ^^^^ >>F >>I sure hope that would include user licenses - that's 200 Billion US
 >>dollars. > 9 >That looks like 2^11, not 2*10^11. 2^11 is only $1024...u   And another one!   2^11 = 2048!  K We really *do* need a proper OpenVMS Educational programme around here! <g>e   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----m Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQE7DggAs+arVdEX15l7NueZIg6vG51hd0py4Unh@ K1kW7GlXuklsAieE9foQmE5CCjJbOlIF78/qn2wRINxdsxoIZEFAdbCCZosC8xyx@ 8YiUqbYioWxXk9diaaPtSyz7WACG+ERLqsGB99z2o6P1dlP/7s3KSQOSm6TB3o2S@ 1GjOHn3BGn2FdJzivIft1E+i5+0oRAeqSqBTABNJntyJ0qz7lLOVttKqd4RGCaTU@ YM6b4FYKIesy86OcefYMVe+xiv+/M+ZyxNe2ocKtcQvfZhaIY5DMWUxYm8/+PhgG8 EMD/1xlNlpxIscfT9pmxZUimISTCjc8u/ZbxGV4/lMZ+7Q/pRc6uVQ== =MzWb  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----K   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:58:13 GMT-/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> * Subject: FTP Performance: UCX vs. Multinet) Message-ID: <3AB5F455.1F0A8F72@uiowa.edu>t  B I have found a disturbing difference in FTP transfer rates between a F pair of nodes I manage in Japan back to our local site here in the US.E Both VAXen in Japan are VAXStation 3100/GPX boxes sitting on the same  LANc< in the same room.  The end node in the US is my AlphaServer.  H     The problem is that the old VAX moves files back to the US more thanF 3 times faster than the new VAX (sent to allow us to eventually retire3 the old VAX)!  That is:  17,755 B/s vs. 75,702 B/s!t  *     Here are the two VAX nodes summarized:  '         Old                         New13     -------------------         ------------------- 3     VAXStation 3100/GPX         VAXStation 3100/GPX )     20 MB RAM                   32 MB RAMh,     VMS v5.3                    OpenVMS v6.2.     Multinet v3.0 rev A         UCX v4.2 ECO 4,                                 MGFTP v2.6-2  H     Both nodes are doing FTP transfers of the same two ZIP files back to the same VMS server in Iowa:           Iowa Node-     ---------------------i     AlphaSever 2100 4/266-     1 GB RAM     OpenVMS v6.2     UCX v4.1 ECO 100     MGFTP v2.6-5  D     Is this just the performance difference between Multinet and UCXE (even though Multinet is very old and UCX other very new!)?  Is thereDE some tuning I could do to the UCX system to help things?  If so, what C kind of UCX or SYSGEN parameters would you recommend investigating?p  ?     Here are the data from some transfer tests I made recently:n  3   FTP Transfer rates from Japan VAXen to Iowa Alpham  6 Node  Day of  Time of     Size    Transfer Time   Rate8        Week   Day[CST]   [Bytes]    [min:sec]    [B/sec]8 ----  ------  --------   -------  -------------  -------7 OLD     M     10:48am    1807815    00:23.83      75863e7 OLD     M     10:50am    2237815    00:29.44      76013a7 OLD     M     10:51am    1807815    00:24.13      74920t7 OLD     M     10:52am    2237815    00:29.54      75755r7 OLD     M     11:15am    1807815    00:23.80      75959   7 NEW     M     10:30am    1807883    01:44.78      17254h7 NEW     M     10:32am    2237883    02:04.31      18002e7 NEW     M     10:40am    1807883    01:42.43      17649 7 NEW     M     10:40am    2237883    02:06.28      17721s7 NEW     M     11:27am    1807883    01:39.36      18195i7 NEW     M     11:29am    2237883    02:06.38      17707M     Thanks for any suggestions!y Rick -- oH Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:48:23 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> E Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMSi8 Message-ID: <pbvbbt0r9k0jukah35npncmsaabril0gd3@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:05:32 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n wrote:   >a  I >Oh, dear:  I hope this isn't the same publication that was running NT on < >Alpha ads for a month or more after the product was axed...  = Yes it is one of them. The other being Computing. This week'sn9 Computing carries a Compaq Armada with Windows 2000 ad inlC approximately the same slot. So far Compaq have not  dropped eitherr product yet.   >w >- billr >e >> >> > --p7 >> > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001n >> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  >> >H >> > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named >after >> them. >> >> >> >> >n   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:13:51 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-Y Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go to>8 Message-ID: <nusbbtoshkoogertkpsv53m0rdn5qgbg0v@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:01:21 -0000, "LJEB" <LJEB@somewhere.out.there>  wrote:  I >Just opened the new ComputerWeekly (15th March), and found an advert for : >Alpha & OpenVMS, not only that it is a WHOLE PAGE advert!  D Just to confirm you're not hallucinating I see it as well on Page 15F of Computer Weekly.  Just scanned through Computing for 15th March and> similar style ads appear there but for Windows. I also get theE impression that there may be a graphic missing as the other ads don't,B have such a large amount of blank red space as the VMS ad. There's8 also no "Alpha-Powered" logo to match the "Intel Inside"C The (c) notice tells us that Proliant is a trademark of Compaq (the F word Proliant does not appear in the ad) but does not say that OpenVMS is a trademark.   F Minor nit-picks aside I cannot recall how many years it has been sinceA an ad for VMS last appeared in Computer Weekly. Anything appearedg outside of the UK?   Good work someone!     -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:50:24 GMTa= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)hY Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toi0 Message-ID: <009F93E2.7B9C7B56@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <nusbbtoshkoogertkpsv53m0rdn5qgbg0v@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: {...snip...}G >Minor nit-picks aside I cannot recall how many years it has been sinceoB >an ad for VMS last appeared in Computer Weekly. Anything appeared >outside of the UK?o  E Not likely.  The US market is too freakin' stupid to buy anything butnE Redmond refuse.  I don't even know of any trade rag that isn't wholeyeD PeeCee.  The local "Barnes and Micro$oft" doesn't seem to carry any.  E Maybe you folks in the UK could collect these Computer Weekly rags inf1 a recycle effort and air drop them across the US?i   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMu             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.y   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 17:12:38 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>Y Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toB6 Message-ID: <20010319171238.30262.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  C On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger,H VAXman-) wrote:X   <snip>  F >Not likely.  The US market is too freakin' stupid to buy anything butF >Redmond refuse.  I don't even know of any trade rag that isn't wholeyE >PeeCee.  The local "Barnes and Micro$oft" doesn't seem to carry any.- >uF >Maybe you folks in the UK could collect these Computer Weekly rags in2 >a recycle effort and air drop them across the US?  B Can you perhaps persuade the USAF to photocopy the advert and drop& thousands over Silicon Valley for you?   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE------ Version: N/A  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQH9xQf6A2mrhbcXoo0Nxw2fHDg/dC3V1/qKmVS7@ //CXhR68bzb7l7DhaDz0h2404+tPBxRsSTXr6rMS8U7YT6Es2DQEbEeMWZpFe5qS@ lKqz4jVDvM7cxNl693tCdeMtupJLjJr9hYcP4jSMDQ8EAnt7s0ATxmoA+q4V8IwC@ qwqi7DPNRS+wkBhlji5y9Z7UtS0BfQFnHykUBVlpLaSdykBifgcq3dlx8pm5EahE@ bQ6KnQztJFVs+nw6xsfiOEsbeYMSv+e6DfGvpsaYFvON7NL8zZGMdiToAOCUSMZW8 VcEzbM2RK9KNqthw5aS0LeaYD5S/YVW6sa754Lj1ep0pKwQ+OYp3Tg== =Pm5u, -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 17:12:45 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>Y Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS and Marketing go toe6 Message-ID: <20010319171245.26442.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  C On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger,a VAXman-) wrote:j   <snip>  F >Not likely.  The US market is too freakin' stupid to buy anything butF >Redmond refuse.  I don't even know of any trade rag that isn't wholeyE >PeeCee.  The local "Barnes and Micro$oft" doesn't seem to carry any.a >@F >Maybe you folks in the UK could collect these Computer Weekly rags in2 >a recycle effort and air drop them across the US?  B Can you perhaps persuade the USAF to photocopy the advert and drop& thousands over Silicon Valley for you?   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  Version: N/A  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQH9xQf6A2mrhbcXoo0Nxw2fHDg/dC3V1/qKmVS7@ //CXhR68bzb7l7DhaDz0h2404+tPBxRsSTXr6rMS8U7YT6Es2DQEbEeMWZpFe5qS@ lKqz4jVDvM7cxNl693tCdeMtupJLjJr9hYcP4jSMDQ8EAnt7s0ATxmoA+q4V8IwC@ qwqi7DPNRS+wkBhlji5y9Z7UtS0BfQFnHykUBVlpLaSdykBifgcq3dlx8pm5EahE@ bQ6KnQztJFVs+nw6xsfiOEsbeYMSv+e6DfGvpsaYFvON7NL8zZGMdiToAOCUSMZW8 VcEzbM2RK9KNqthw5aS0LeaYD5S/YVW6sa754Lj1ep0pKwQ+OYp3Tg== =Pm5u  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----O   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:24:58 -0500 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> Y Subject: Re: I seem to be in a different reality today, one where VMS andMarketing go tog + Message-ID: <3AB616BA.9D9837CA@hsc.vcu.edu>    sey. I make misteakes two..e   ;-)    hee hee.   "John Gemignani, Jr." wrote: > + > nothernlight.com has a serach engine too?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:55:25 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brO( Subject: IPP: Internet Printing ProtocolL Message-ID: <OF41A707C1.7CE60BFB-ON03256A14.00576496@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  I Any idea if OpenVMS or any of the related printer softwares  will support  the MS + HP  technology ???   Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:11:46 -0700 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> , Subject: Re: IPP: Internet Printing ProtocolA Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010319091058.028c7de8@ntbsod.psccos.com>S  H IPP is currently either in field test or about to go into field test for- the Mulitnet product, with TCPware to follow.2  A At 08:55 AM 3/19/2001, fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:IJ >Any idea if OpenVMS or any of the related printer softwares  will support >the MS + HP >technology ???o >* >Regards >s >FC    ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+iI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |eI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |hI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:15:39 -0500m0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>, Subject: Re: IPP: Internet Printing ProtocolK Message-ID: <paul.r.anderson-21D77C.13153919032001@gazette.loc1.tandem.com>d   In article dA <OF41A707C1.7CE60BFB-ON03256A14.00576496@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,e+  fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:t  C > Any idea if OpenVMS or any of the related printer softwares will r$ > support the MS + HP technology ???  : DCPS has no IPP support today, but may have in the future.  I Now I'll ask you a question:  What do you want IPP to do for you on your D OpenVMS system?0   Paul   -- b,    Paul Anderson, OpenVMS Engineering (DCPS),    Compaq Computer Corporation, Littleton MA   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 10:02:24 GMT1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>g8 Subject: Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet?2 Message-ID: <01c0b05c$2eb04e40$ae09a8c0@rlhkikker>  : Netscape Fast Track Server 3.01 for OpenVMS supports LDAP.   -Kari-  8 Warren Spencer <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in article& <tb4uokng7h4e23@news.supernews.com>... > Hello All, > K > It looks like we can't wait for OpenVMS 7.3 to get an LDAP client.  Have 1B > any of you ported a current *or* older version of it to OpenVMS? >  > ws >  > -- -3 > << Marriage is Grand.  Divorce is Fifty Grand. >>  >  > Warren Spencer > Senior Software Engineer > The Associated Press > A > ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements **  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:51:16 +0000_0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>8 Subject: Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet?* Message-ID: <3AB5D694.731058C3@uk.sun.com>   Anamika Anamika wrote: > 5 > Netscape 4.* is a LDAP client (I hope also on VMS).o >  > -A >  > Warren Spencer wrote:l >  > > Hello All, > > L > > It looks like we can't wait for OpenVMS 7.3 to get an LDAP client.  HaveD > > any of you ported a current *or* older version of it to OpenVMS? > >p  + I suspect the question refers to being ablet* to authenticate against an LDAP directory  at the OS level.   Regardsa Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architect	   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:40:17 GMT-8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)E Subject: Re: Looking for Installation & Operations Guide for VAX 3100 1 Message-ID: <RDqt6.133$eE2.6574@news.cpqcorp.net>   M In article <rdeininger-1803012358040001@user-2ivebij.dialup.mindspring.com>, m4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: ..I >look at the Installation and Upgrade Manual.  The on-line version is at:i; >   http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ssb71/6487/6487p.htm0% >(also linked from the VMS home page)d >tJ >This manual is pretty complete.  The exact steps depend on what media youF >have, and whether you want to try to salvate what's left on your sick >disk. ..  H Assuming you have the media (CD-ROM or TK50) this is the place to start.G The guide should have come with the media.  If you don't have the mediaa you will need to get it.   -- gK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAtH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:03:32 +0530t2 From: Abhijit Kulkarni <Abhijit_Kulkarni@infy.com>& Subject: Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.2N Message-ID: <C7F2D7449C26D411A4B6009027989AC002FEFBB3@punmsg03.ad.infosys.com>   Hi, A         We want to migrate our application (backend is sybase anduI application is in Dec-C)from vax/vms 6.2 to 7.2. I want to know are theret any tools available for this.o: Also what are the problems which we face while porting theH application to the new system?(may be due to archtecture difference like 32-bit and 64 bit)K Also do we have Sybase for 7.2 . The documentation for Sybase says that the5 requirement is Open Vms 6.2SJ Also will you be able to give me idea about the efforts required for this.  + Any pointers to the above are most welcome.  Thanks and regards,X Abhijit+   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:16:58 -0500-2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>& Subject: Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.27 Message-ID: <200103191117_MC2-C943-EACF@compuserve.com>   ( Message text written by Abhijit Kulkarni >Hi,A         We want to migrate our application (backend is sybase andDJ application is in Dec-C)from vax/vms 6.2 to 7.2. I want to know are there=   any tools available for this..: Also what are the problems which we face while porting theH application to the new system?(may be due to archtecture difference like 32-bit and 64 bit)J Also do we have Sybase for 7.2 . The documentation for Sybase says that t= he requirement is Open Vms 6.20J Also will you be able to give me idea about the efforts required for this= .$  + Any pointers to the above are most welcome.  Thanks and regards,  Abhijit<  D Why do you think 32-bit and 64-bit might present a problem?  Are you porting from VAX to Alpha?  J If you are simply upgrading VMS from V6.2 to V7.2 there should not be any=  H application changes required.  You should be aware, however, that SybaseJ has dropped support for VMS and that the last supported release of VMS is=  J V7.0!   I'm told that some people are running Sybase under VMS 7.1 with n= o5J problems and that the same people have even successfully tested VMS  V7.2=   but Sybase does not support it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:09:59 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)* Subject: Re: Migrating from vms 6.2 to 7.21 Message-ID: <H3rt6.135$eE2.6966@news.cpqcorp.net>f   In article <C7F2D7449C26D411A4B6009027989AC002FEFBB3@punmsg03.ad.infosys.com>, Abhijit Kulkarni <Abhijit_Kulkarni@infy.com> writes: B :        We want to migrate our application (backend is sybase andJ :application is in Dec-C)from vax/vms 6.2 to 7.2. I want to know are there :any tools available for this.  I   For OpenVMS VAX V6.2 to OpenVMS VAX V7.2, ensure the installed versions H   are supported and upgrade as needed off you go -- little or no effort,   in most cases.  ; :Also what are the problems which we face while porting the I :application to the new system?(may be due to archtecture difference like  :32-bit and 64 bit)P  I   For OpenVMS VAX V6.2 to OpenVMS VAX V7.2 or to OpenVMS Alpha V7.2, you  D   DO NOT need to consider anything specific to the 64-bit addressingE   capabilities of OpenVMS Alpha V7.2.  That evaluation step typically G   comes later, once you have your code moved over and running, and oncehH   you understand what your code is doing and particularly where you can C   specifically modify your application to take advantage of 64-bit CH   addressing.  In default operations, OpenVMS Alpha 32-bit programs are C   compatible with OpenVMS VAX 32-bit addressing operations and such D   programs will also continue to operate correctly on OpenVMS Alpha 3   releases (V7 and later) with 64-bit capabilities.S  L :Also do we have Sybase for 7.2 . The documentation for Sybase says that the :requirement is Open Vms 6.2  G   Ask Sybase.  Sybase is, AFAIK, getting out of most OS markets.  (ThisaG   prerequisite product may well be among your most difficult problems.)[  K :Also will you be able to give me idea about the efforts required for this.   H   Somewhere between a recompilation and a relink to a huge and expensiveH   and involved effort.  If the prerequisite tools are available, most ofE   these efforts are well along toward the simple and quick end of the0D   range.  If the prerequisite tools are not available and/or if the H   applications are deeply tied into the VAX architecture and/or into theK   OpenVMS VAX kernel, things can be a little more involved.  (Most Macro32 1G   code ports easily, for instance.  Kernel-mode Macro32 or Macro32 that.A   traverses the call stack can be rather more difficult to port.)8  , :Any pointers to the above are most welcome.  B   Please read the available documentation.  Please ensure that theD   prerequisite products are available, and (if possible) please lookF   at using an OpenVMS cluster configuration and at compatible versionsB   of the prerequisite products.  Please also look at the numerous G   discussions of this topic here in comp.os.vms and at the OpenVMS Ask 7   The Wizard website.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:05:26 +0000v% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o* Subject: Re: Obtaining 7.2-1 and TCPIP 5.18 Message-ID: <0kpbbtgb1h8cpei739flb8vkli04uueok7@4ax.com>  1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 04:20:30 GMT, "Zane H. Healy"r# <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:t  K >Out of curiosity, is there an affordable way for a Hobbyist to get OpenVMSoI >7.2-1 or TCPIP 5.1 for the Alpha?  The current Hobbyist kit is about twoe  1 You could order the 7.3 EFT2 kit. 5.1 is on that.n  G >years old, and is starting to be a little long in the tooth.  The only K >option I see is the "OpenVMS Alpha Software Layered Products and Operating>A >System Library Package", but at $1258, that's not affordable :^(  >,M >Basically I *really* need TCPIP 5.1 for the Anti-Spam features, however, I'dR< >also like to also have the benefit of the patches in 7.2-1. >aI >It would be nice if OpenVMS had a Hobbyist Kit like Tru64 does.  You can ; >even upgrade from V5 Hobbyist to V5.1 Hobbyist with Tru64!t >e >			Zane >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:26:00 GMT&1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> + Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Expertss2 Message-ID: <3AB61761.6E47DC04@clarityconnect.com>   What do those PEA0 errors say?   BrianNFO wrote:  > O > I had a problem with something tonight and I can't figure this one out.  I amaP > replacing a 6320 with a 6620.  The 6320 has a CIBCA, and the 6620 has a CIXCD. > P > When I booted the 6620 off the 6320's system disk, my plan was to do licenses,J > system params, etc.  Shortly after the system joins the cluster, I startG > getting "port has closed virtual circuit" to the other nodes.  Up andaQ > down...every few minutes.  When the system finally came up, it was logging PEA0  > errors constantly. > P > I pulled a CIXCD out of another good system, thinking I might have a bad boardQ > or a rev level issue, but the problem remained.  Someone at Compaq said "reboot Q > your cluster."  I sceptically did, and still the same problem.  So for now, I'mIK > back on the old system.  Any thoughts??  Oh, and if I'm missing something - > blatently obvious, be gentle.  Thanks much.> >  > Briane   -- tD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:46:06 -0000 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts , Message-ID: <99563k$11qo@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  < "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message, news:3AB61761.6E47DC04@clarityconnect.com...  > What do those PEA0 errors say?  ; Hang on, shouldn't they be PAA errors if it's a CI problem?c: My knowledge of CI is almost zero but surely it should be:< "I have an NICI cluster with a network configuarion problem"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:03:33 -0500r. From: "Kenneth Randell" <kenr@datametrics.com>+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Expertse* Message-ID: <99571i$10$1@bob.news.rcn.net>  C My memory may be fuzzy on this, but do you have the correct clustery	 password?>  L It seems to me that if you had the wrong password, when said system tried to join/ the cluster, you would log lots of PEA0 errors.i  ? Might be worth checking the error log; it should tell you this.t   Ken Randello  , BrianNFO <briannfo@aol.com> wrote in message4 news:20010319001029.02156.00001048@ng-cg1.aol.com...L > I had a problem with something tonight and I can't figure this one out.  I amI > replacing a 6320 with a 6620.  The 6320 has a CIBCA, and the 6620 has ae CIXCD. > F > When I booted the 6620 off the 6320's system disk, my plan was to do	 licenses,cJ > system params, etc.  Shortly after the system joins the cluster, I startG > getting "port has closed virtual circuit" to the other nodes.  Up and7L > down...every few minutes.  When the system finally came up, it was logging PEA0 > errors constantly. >qJ > I pulled a CIXCD out of another good system, thinking I might have a bad boardFI > or a rev level issue, but the problem remained.  Someone at Compaq said0 "rebootVH > your cluster."  I sceptically did, and still the same problem.  So for now, I'mK > back on the old system.  Any thoughts??  Oh, and if I'm missing somethingh- > blatently obvious, be gentle.  Thanks much.  >b > Brianf   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 15:26:25 GMT! From: briannfo@aol.com (BrianNFO)l+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts-: Message-ID: <20010319102625.03099.00002491@ng-mi1.aol.com>   >What do those PEA0 errors say?s >>   Here's an error log entry...   NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VAX4$PEA0:  &        PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT  -        LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X) '        LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 000000000404(X)s  .        REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DA(X)(        REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000434(X)          UCB$B_ERTCNT          32t<                                        50. RETRIES REMAINING        UCB$B_ERTMAX          32a<                                        50. RETRIES ALLOWABLE        UCB$W_ERRCNT        001D9;                                        29. ERRORS THIS UNIT8        PPD$B_PORT            00U7                                        REMOTE NODE # 0.Y        PPD$B_STATUS          00w        PPD$B_OPC             00U5                                        UNKNOWN OPCODEY        PPD$B_FLAGS           00U   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:55:55 GMT-1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>-+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts02 Message-ID: <3AB62C73.D8075AF8@clarityconnect.com>  H Hopefully all the entries look like this, if not take the following with that additional knowledge.  / Have you installed the VAXDRIV03_062 patch kit?wG Are there any errors on the network card in this system?  I'd wager thegG network  will be the source of the problem.  $ ANA/SYS - SHOW LAN/COUNTe and look for errors.F The CI does not appear to play any role in this since PEA0 is the LAVC" driver for the network interfaces.   BrianNFO wrote:6 > ! > >What do those PEA0 errors say?s > >b >  > Here's an error log entry... >   > NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VAX4$PEA0: > ( >        PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT > / >        LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X)o) >        LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 000000000404(X)' > 0 >        REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DA(X)* >        REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000434(X) > ! >        UCB$B_ERTCNT          32m> >                                        50. RETRIES REMAINING! >        UCB$B_ERTMAX          32t> >                                        50. RETRIES ALLOWABLE! >        UCB$W_ERRCNT        001DA= >                                        29. ERRORS THIS UNITl! >        PPD$B_PORT            00 9 >                                        REMOTE NODE # 0.-! >        PPD$B_STATUS          00-! >        PPD$B_OPC             00 7 >                                        UNKNOWN OPCODE ! >        PPD$B_FLAGS           00    -- hD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 16:09:53 GMT! From: briannfo@aol.com (BrianNFO)0+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts.: Message-ID: <20010319110953.02978.00002634@ng-mi1.aol.com>  D >My memory may be fuzzy on this, but do you have the correct cluster
 >password?  L Yes, I think I've had issue with this in the past, but since I'm booting offN the same system disk as the previous system, my assumption is that the clusterM password should be correct.  My (also fuzzy) memory doesn't recall where that?+ cluster password is defined/stored, though.h   Briane   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:23:18 GMTy1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>P+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster ExpertsC2 Message-ID: <3AB632DD.C6D64897@clarityconnect.com>  D SYS$SYSTEM:CLUSTER_AUTHORIZE.DAT stores the cluster group number andF password.  This file is read ONLY at boot time and if the group and/orH password is changed it is only changed in the file and not in the memoryF location within every member of the cluster.  Therefore it is possibleG to boot a cluster, change the item(s) and then not have a problem for a4G few years if you don't reboot a system ;*)  If you have this particulariH problem you will get lots of PEA0 errors but they will clearly be marked as an incorrect password error.    BrianNFO wrote:  > F > >My memory may be fuzzy on this, but do you have the correct cluster > >password? > N > Yes, I think I've had issue with this in the past, but since I'm booting offP > the same system disk as the previous system, my assumption is that the clusterO > password should be correct.  My (also fuzzy) memory doesn't recall where thato- > cluster password is defined/stored, though.  >  > Brian    -- -D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:33:37 -0500 7 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com>u8 Subject: Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage2 Message-ID: <bgm2OuVqs96FFwEIAqD1VDk3amOQ@4ax.com>  @     For VMS, I would avoid the IBM Shark.  It's really an ESCON A controller with a munged FibreChannel interface.  It's great for n6 IBM mainframes, not necessarily the rest of the world.  8     As others have observed, EMC has the premier storageC solution right now.  The company philosophy is that they assist youd9 "cradle-to-grave", so don't be suprised at how much theirm= equipment costs, because it includes a good deal of technical  support and all maintenance.  D     Although it's a risk, you might even consider looking at the MTI FibreChannel offering.  B On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:13:05 GMT, "Mike Gray" <me@home.com> wrote:   >Hi, >mH >I am wondering what experiences you may have with Open VMS & EnterpriseK >Storage (such as IBM Shark or EMC Symmetrix)? Can anyone offer any advice.v >h >Mii >C   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:37:44 -0500 2 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <DRAGON@compuserve.com>8 Subject: Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage7 Message-ID: <200103191038_MC2-C943-E853@compuserve.com>n  & Message text written by Paul RepacholiC >> It's a matter of budget and management style.  Were I a manager,eB > with my ass on the line, to say nothing of the whole business, ID > might prefer EMC.  On the other hand, there's that 50% premium you > pay. . . .  D I wonder how you are SURE EMC will respond on time? He is paying 50%C of someones budget ( not his I suspect ) for the fiction that it isn 'their problem'.  C If it was the biz and your arse on the line, and no excuses, if EMCsD screw or are late, *you* are out or pay the cost, would you feel the same?w  C Also to get good results, his answer requires the EMC peole to havee$ very good knowledge of cluster IO. =     <e  J         **I** am not at all sure that EMC will respond on time!  It wasn'= tfJ my decision and I have never seen a copy of our contract with EMC.  To be=  H fair, we have had the EMC box for about eighteen months now and have hadB one disk drive, one power supply and a cable replaced on differentJ occasions without any downtime whatever.  Since all the disks were/are RA= IDG 1 or RAID "S", losing one disk drive is no problem.  Controllers, powero- supplies, etc, are dual (at least) redundant.o  J OTOH, our parent company, whose managers made the EMC choice, have had an=  J EMC technician pull the wrong circuit board from a production disk farm a= ndJ hose an Oracle database to the point where it took the DBA team a week to=  I repair all the damage.  I wonder where that technician works now. . . . =o    J Our Storageworks RAIDArray 450 has been running since I've been there (tw= o C and a half years now) with no failures of controllers, disks, powera supplies, etc.  J  I don't know that Compaq will show up in four hours if we have a problem=  J even though our contract is 24x7 with four hour response.  If they do sho= waJ up, I don't know that they will have or be able to get the parts they nee= doJ in four hours (their record, and before them, Digital's record, has never=   been good in this regard).  J Since I've been there we have had only one Storageworks disk (out of abou= taJ 50) fail to the point of unusability (I was busy recovering from a triple=  J bypass at the time). It was not part of a RAID set.   My boss took a spar= etD from a box in my office, replaced the failing disk and restored fromJ backup.  There have been a couple of other instances wherein a disk logge= d-1 enough errors that I had it replaced proactively.   H You pay your money and take your choice.  I'd still choose Storageworks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:52:08 +0000c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>E( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program8 Message-ID: <d5lbbt03eb17ifssjlo0c3nanrr4if9lab@4ax.com>  E On 10 Mar 2001 01:52:34 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>D wrote:  4 >bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >aF >> They know that the INTERNET was built on Unix and runs primarily onD >> Unix (what do you think is inside most of those router boxes that% >> make the Internet function, VMS??)  >eE >Bill a few points of correction. If there was 'a system' the net waspC >built on, it would be Tops-10, TOPS-20 and Multics. And now, it is B >IOS inside most router boxes, and it was Fuzzball on an 11. Well,' >in the NSF part of the not so old net.T  A Not too long ago I recall a BBC documentary on the history of theiF Internet. Expecting the usual Unix nonsense I was pleasantly surprisedF to see footage of an old teletype printing out "BBN Tenex..." followed. by the familiar Tenex/TOPS-20 login sequence.   C As for IOS its command interface is just a ripoff of Tenex/TOPS-20.n> Sometime around the late 80s I recall an April 1st spoof Cisco> technical release claiming that IOS was actually TOPS-20. Many believed it.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:08:07 +0000 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program* Message-ID: <3AB612C7.EB5251F8@uk.sun.com>   Christof Brass wrote:2 > W > Great! I'm on the right way. Having Andrew as opponent is as safe as sleeping in bed.p >   3 Your bed must be a very very scary place. And don't 3 get out in the dark the monster inder the bed will r get you.  9 Strangely you are only on the right track if your secret i$ agenda is the extinction of OpenVMS.  5 Even stranger I disagree with you, not because I cares2 about the survival of OpenVMS but because you are  wrong. i  7 You have been quite happy to trash COE without offering 4 any suggestions as to how you would get major ISV's 7 to support OpenVMS. Its terribly negative and probably A6 rather dispiriting to people like Fred who appears to ! be involved with the COE process.i  7 So how would you get major ISV's to support OpenVMS ???   8 And don't say OpenVMS is great and UNIX is crap becasue : even if it was true it isn't going to get ISV's to support	 OpenVMS. l   > Brian Wheeler wrote: > > R > > I concur!  I *KNEW* there was a reason why I didn't put you in my killfile! :) > >g	 > > Brian  > >e. > > In article <3AB202BC.D82E2174@uk.sun.com>,> > >         andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: > > > Christof Brass wrote:e > > >>H > > >> It has been written that these COE amendments would for a certainO > > >> period (I assume at least 5 to 10 years) not be available to the public.iO > > >> So your argument wouldn't fit. But my fear also wouldn't be appropriate.-M > > >> But my point is that technically this is something very risky and donenO > > >> the wrong way will kill VMS technically. Why would one use VMS with UNIX-M > > >> apps instead of using UNIX? And putting engineering effort in that COEiK > > >> niche market project will reduce the engineering power spent for theb > > >> public version. > > >> Insane, isn't it? > > >>T > > >> I'm sure that even the COE UNIX API would already be there this wouldn't helpP > > >> VMS. Instead it might well kill VMS also from the marketing point of viewP > > >> because the real VMS apps will vanish and there will no apps remain usingQ > > >> the real power of VMS. And there will be a lot of apps spoiling VMS by not 0 > > >> using its features like structured files. > > >lE > > > Ahh so you are afraid that change will kill OpenVMS. Do nothing D > > > and it will survive change it to make it compete with UNIX and > > > it will die. > > >pC > > > The underlying feeling I get when I read you posts is despitee> > > > all the architectural posturing that you are afraid that@ > > > OpenVMS skinned to look like UNIX would not be competitive> > > > with UNIX itself. I get the impression that you think it@ > > > should remain safely hidden in its slowly declining niche. > > >rD > > > But lets just address the software issue, the OpenVMS software= > > > catalogue is declining, every week people post articlesyE > > > complaining that such and such a vendor has decided to do their ? > > > next release of SW on NT or UNIX rather than OpenVMS. TheoA > > > fact is that commercial apps that use RMS are declining andC > > > have been for some time. > > >nC > > > How long do you want to wait and how few apps that really usen> > > > RMS do you need to get to before you reluctantly concede> > > > defeat and clutch at a UNIX or Win32 set of API's to get > > > more SW onto OpenVMS.  > > >e; > > > Your posts also seem to contain an enormous degree ofg@ > > > pessimism about the ability of Compaqs OpenVMS engineering< > > > group to do a reliable implimentation of the COE API's > > > on OpenVMS.  > > >bC > > > I would not rely on them to post accurate security advisoriescA > > > about OpenVMS but I have no reason to suspect their abilitykA > > > when it comes to writing code. They also have access to thenB > > > Tru64 code base which no doubt they will plunder judiciously) > > > to help them in the implimentation.u > > >r; > > > So far in this discussion all you have done is posted < > > > negative responses with very hand wavey suggestions as< > > > to how OpenVMS is going to boost its software support. > > >-= > > > Perhaps instead of attacking other peoples constructivedB > > > suggestions you could make some alternative but constructive? > > > suggestions yourself instead of indulging in a boring andJ$ > > > tendacious architectural rant. > > >s
 > > > Regards1 > > > Andrew Harrisonn > > > Enterprise IT Architect0   --   Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architectr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:37:43 +0000h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program* Message-ID: <3AB619B7.B2273EA4@uk.sun.com>   Christof Brass wrote:h >  > andrew harrison wrote: > >u > > Christof Brass wrote:l > > >xG > > > It has been written that these COE amendments would for a certainzN > > > period (I assume at least 5 to 10 years) not be available to the public.N > > > So your argument wouldn't fit. But my fear also wouldn't be appropriate.L > > > But my point is that technically this is something very risky and doneN > > > the wrong way will kill VMS technically. Why would one use VMS with UNIXL > > > apps instead of using UNIX? And putting engineering effort in that COEJ > > > niche market project will reduce the engineering power spent for the > > > public version.0 > > > Insane, isn't it?a > > >6S > > > I'm sure that even the COE UNIX API would already be there this wouldn't helpwO > > > VMS. Instead it might well kill VMS also from the marketing point of viewlO > > > because the real VMS apps will vanish and there will no apps remain usingUP > > > the real power of VMS. And there will be a lot of apps spoiling VMS by not/ > > > using its features like structured files.C > >oC > > Ahh so you are afraid that change will kill OpenVMS. Do nothingaB > > and it will survive change it to make it compete with UNIX and > > it will die. > Y > I really can't believe it! Nobody in this group wrote that nothing has to be changed!!! Z > I really don't get it. What is the meaning of this stupid overture??? Are you braindead? >   3 Well you have, you are in effect advocating that no-7 major changes are made to OpenVMS, you also havn't madec6 any other suggestions other than vague handwavey stuff7 like lower cost machines and Java support all of which o( you could have got from one of MY posts.  B > > The underlying feeling I get when I read your posts is despite< > > all the architectural posturing that you are afraid that> > > OpenVMS skinned to look like UNIX would not be competitive< > > with UNIX itself. I get the impression that you think it> > > should remain safely hidden in its slowly declining niche. > B > Obviously you didn't read my posts or you didn't understand it. @ > Numerous times I stated that niche is the worst thing you can B > aim for SW! Your post clearly shows that you should look around @ > if there is something like brain available for you instead of " > using your "underlying feeling".  7 Sadly I have read your posts and despite the very long D lines I did understand them. P  < The problem is that the course you are advocating guarantees: that OpenVMS will remain a niche OS. You claim not to want5 OpenVMS to be a niche OS but on the other hand argue 58 vehemently a course of action which will guarantee this.  & That is why I say underlying feeling.  > B > > But lets just address the software issue, the OpenVMS software; > > catalogue is declining, every week people post articleshC > > complaining that such and such a vendor has decided to do theirp= > > next release of SW on NT or UNIX rather than OpenVMS. Thes? > > fact is that commercial apps that use RMS are declining and  > > have been for some time. > N > I never said the evolution of mankind is an advance in understanding/reason. > A > > How long do you want to wait and how few apps that really use < > > RMS do you need to get to before you reluctantly concede< > > defeat and clutch at a UNIX or Win32 set of API's to get > > more SW onto OpenVMS.C >  > You obviously didn't read/understand my posts. Having UNIX on VMS isn't a solution. If you are that cute show the business case in which this would make sense!   8 Actually I can give you one really good example of where9 not having the POSIX API's (if you like COE 0.8) has lost.* Compaq revenue and that example is Oracle.  ; Oracle 8i was very very late on OpenVMS causing a number ofS9 OpenVMS/Oracle projects to switch to UNIX/Oracle (in some 9 cases I know of Solaris/Oracle). One reason why it was so 7 late was because Compaq dropped POSIX support making it ; harder for Oracle to port 8i from Solaris (its development 0 platform) to OpenVMS.   6 This is only one example all be it a very significant  example. >   9 > > Your posts also seem to contain an enormous degree of > > > pessimism about the ability of Compaqs OpenVMS engineering: > > group to do a reliable implimentation of the COE API's > > on OpenVMS.9 > ? > Unfortunately not. I even think they might be the only group -F > in OS development who could accomplish the impossible: to implement @ > the broken UNIX crap API *together* with the VMS API that the @ > outcome is still reliable (as opposed to UNIX). This would be > > the first reliable UNIX implementation. Alas this won't help( > because the UNIX apps are crap anyway.  = I am intrigued, what in your opinion is broken about the UNIX 9 API's. Are they all crap, be specific ???? Some examples t- perhaps would be good rather than general BS.)  ; Are all UNIX apps crap ? I am sure all those UNIX ISV's out/< there that Compaq are trying to get to port to OpenVMS will / be happy to know that their products are crap. r    @ > The worst thing about these brilliant people in the VMS group A > is that they probably will succeed and we have the shitty UNIX >? > in VMS whithout chance to escape from it. Will I use Windoze bD > than to avoid UNIX shit? Will I have to write my own OS? I really B > don't know. If I expect VMS engineering to fail I wouldn't have  > said anything.  B Firstly why would OpenVMS engineering implimenting a bunch of UNIXC API's stop you from using OpenVMS API's and OpenVMS utilities. This B won't happen, you will get UNIX API and utilities co-existing with? OpenVMS API's and utilities, if you don't want to use the UNIX c= interface you won't have to anymore than you have to use CDE w instead of a CLI now.y   > A > > I would not rely on them to post accurate security advisories ? > > about OpenVMS but I have no reason to suspect their abilitye? > > when it comes to writing code. They also have access to them@ > > Tru64 code base which no doubt they will plunder judiciously' > > to help them in the implimentation.e > H > Obviously the VMS engineering group (as mentioned before wrt graphics E > drivers) will have to re-write the code and chances are that Tru64 -I > will get the corrected source back. This will then the second reliable 	 > UNIX implementation.  > Unlikely, COE on OpenVMS will be a bunch of API's and utilites> layered on top of the OpenVMS kernel. I doubt that there will < be much OpenVMS->Tru64 and Tru64->OpenVMS interchange at the< kernel level. Libs, utilities etc yes. This also measn that ; implimenting COE on OpenVMS is unlikely to have any impact t on OpenVMS itself. > 9 > > So far in this discussion all you have done is postedc: > > negative responses with very hand waved suggestions as: > > to how OpenVMS is going to boost its software support. > ) > Sorry? Please be more specific on that.a >   ; Tell us how you will ensure that the decline in the number  7 of apps in the OpenVMS SW porfolio is reversed ? I havei8 read remarkably little in your postings to suggest that 5 you have given it any serious thought, what you have n8 suggested could have been borrowed from one of my posts.     Regards  Andrew Harrisonk Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:07:28 GMTM4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program: Message-ID: <Qgpt6.463$587.138746@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in messagem$ news:3AB612C7.EB5251F8@uk.sun.com... > Christof Brass wrote:S > >eH > > Great! I'm on the right way. Having Andrew as opponent is as safe as sleeping in bed. > >o > 5 > Your bed must be a very very scary place. And don'tI4 > get out in the dark the monster inder the bed will
 > get you. >b: > Strangely you are only on the right track if your secret& > agenda is the extinction of OpenVMS. >d7 > Even stranger I disagree with you, not because I careg3 > about the survival of OpenVMS but because you aree > wrong. > 9 > You have been quite happy to trash COE without offering 5 > any suggestions as to how you would get major ISV's,8 > to support OpenVMS. Its terribly negative and probably7 > rather dispiriting to people like Fred who appears to # > be involved with the COE process.f >u  L What's more, a lot of the commentary in this forum is tailor-made collateral5 for the Sun (and IBM and HP, et al) sales force. Doh.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:47:44 -0600o+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> ( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD5492@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]    > > Unrivaled real time capabilities with good price/performance< > ratio. And a lot of engineers who estimated this clean OS.  F It seems that Compaq need to look into that price/performance ratio :)6 That's the only thing that I believe has changed much.  > > > That's an interesting point, and I see why you're worried  > about the type ofh> > > users it will attract -- after all, there's a slim chance  > that if they'rec@ > > all unix people, compaq would be tempted to make VMS itself  > more unix-like.s* > > (Correct me if this isn't the problem)  9 > We don't need the masses to destroy the quality of VMS.   B But we need them to acknowledge the quality of VMS. :) (see below)  ? > > they won't care if it's VMS underneath.  So I really don't t > think of the > > above as a danger at all.c  ? > I'm not only talking about the users; it's the developers whot > ensure app quality.'  H Well, actually, it's the developers who _should_ ensure app quality, butK generally don't these days.  The ones who don't ensure the quality of theiraI apps, of course, are the same ones (an overwhelming majority) who proudly H display acronyms like MCSE (an abbreviation for "I paid bill to get evenF more wrong information") on their resume -- who use tools that are theJ equivalent of a wood-chipper without enough oil to build applications thatG _should be_ the equivalent of a tree.  The quality of software directly-E reflects the quality of the brainwashed masses who believe that usingeD "visual basic" makes you a programmer.  And what can we do about it?  H Yes, if VMS adopts standards closer to the mass, some idiots, goofballs,K etc, will bleed in and start writing trash that happens to run on VMS.  TheeF other side of the coin, though, is that it will give the odd (1 in howL many?) good programmer the ability to make sure that their software will runK on VMS, which they can't justify at this point because it's a niche system,eJ and not profitable. :/  Do you really believe that most people running VMSB would run bad software on it?  You'd just have to be more careful.  = > > Then there's no fundamental argument here, really -- the , > only question is	 > > this:o > > ) > > How can VMS expand its software base?u  ( > VMS can't, software developers can :-)  H Exactly my point. :)  What do you think though -- it's not as if you canL make VMS more accessible to software developers who know what they're doing,' and not to the idiots who don't, is it?s   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developere Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");P '0   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Mar 2001 16:10:02 GMT2 From: mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog)K Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program: Looking a Gift Horse in the Moutho, Message-ID: <995b0q$beu@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  t In article <Mkys6.13506$mH4.3165922@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:G >I fail to understand all the complaining about the OpenVMS Educationaln0 >Program. If I understand the Program correctly,  P Here is a strict analogy:  Microsoft offers a free W2K distribution with licenseJ but the license agreement stipulates that only cats may use it.  There areB roughly as many cats yowling for W2K as there are college studentsI clamoring for OpenVMS.  In both instances there are real people who couldtK benefit from the program but cannot do so because of the license agreement.n   > it works like this:i >iK >1) Educational Institution goes to Web site and signs up to participate in 
 >the Program.u   this part is ok    >rK >2) Compaq provides the Educational Institution with a Registration Number.v this part is ok    this part is oke   >'M >3) Educational Institution makes Registration Number available to interestedW
 >students.	  ^^^^^^^^y  I This is where the fantasy begins - there are no such students. What there<C are are a few remaining people who actually use VMS for work withinoI academic institutions - but none of these can use this type of license toaI do any real work because the license agreement forbids that type of use.    J One cannot get to "4" and beyond because the hypotethetical user base doesN not exist, and the real user base cannot utilize the licenses.  End of story.    > J >4) Students go to Web site, provide the Institution-specific Registration >Number, and ask for PAKs. >cI >5) Compaq emails the PAKs (in a DCL file) to Students, Students load theAJ >PAKs on their systems, and gain access to VMS base license and a bunch of >layered products.  G Right and wrong.  They can load the licenses, but they cannot load the  G software - no source for this is provided.  Certainly they will not be  I purchasing the condist, so they have to be sufficiently on their toes to eJ figure out a place to borrow same (less and less available in academia as K the real acadamic program, the ESL/CSLG are driving everyone off of VMS) orbI they have to find the hobbyist CD.  There is no link from anywhere on theu6 academic site to an affordable software distribution.   G There's also no help finding machines to run this on.  We know where tomD find these machines - would they?  There are no helpful hints on theG educational web site.  Most likely any student hobbyist using these newrK licenses will be doing so on a system retrieved from a dumpster after being G shut down by an ex-CSLG user who has since migrated to another vendor. rJ (Before anybody asks which dumpster my DS10 is going into - it is going to+ run Linux after I stop running VMS on it.) d   > 1 >6) Students have to renew the PAKs every August.a >u! >So what seems to be the problem?o >a  J None of the current academic users can utilize it for anything worthwhile,J or at least, not do so legally.  The hypothetical "educational market" forJ OpenVMS does not exist.  There is, or rather, was, an academic market, but* it is not served by this license program.      Regards,   David Mathog mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu ? Manager, sequence analysis facility, biology division, Caltech tJ **************************************************************************J *                                RIP VMS                                 *J **************************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 08:44:06 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)cK Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program: Looking a Gift Horse in the Mouthc, Message-ID: <X7PqRrVaaWGp@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  - In article <995b0q$beu@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, 68     mathog@seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu (David Mathog) writes: > K > This is where the fantasy begins - there are no such students. What thereoE > are are a few remaining people who actually use VMS for work within K > academic institutions - but none of these can use this type of license topK > do any real work because the license agreement forbids that type of use.   > L > One cannot get to "4" and beyond because the hypotethetical user base doesP > not exist, and the real user base cannot utilize the licenses.  End of story.  > M    Even more to the point, if such students do exist they've no doubt alreadycF availed themselves of the hobbyist program which has been in place forF several years. I don't see that this edu programs gives them any valueI beyone what hobbyist offers. In fact it's somewhat worse in that they arerN dependant on the institution to register first and give them the authorizationJ code - with the hobbyist program they'd have to join Emcompass ( or one ofJ the remaining DECUS chapters ), but that's something they can organize all
 on their own.e   > I > Right and wrong.  They can load the licenses, but they cannot load the 'I > software - no source for this is provided.  Certainly they will not be tK > purchasing the condist, so they have to be sufficiently on their toes to kL > figure out a place to borrow same (less and less available in academia as M > the real acadamic program, the ESL/CSLG are driving everyone off of VMS) ortK > they have to find the hobbyist CD.  There is no link from anywhere on the 8 > academic site to an affordable software distribution.  >   J     That brings up an interesting point. I've always been told that CompaqL considers it a license violation to loan or give away a copy of CONDIST thatF one has purchased. As there is no language in the terms of edu programF which overrides this it would appear the institution is not allowed toE loan the media to an employee or student who has signed up for one ofaF these licenses. As David points out though, there doesn't appear to beH a cost-effective way for a student to get a copy of the actual software.  7 > There's also no help finding machines to run this on.n  E    Well they need only find one machine, the program allows a studentgD to run the software on only a single machine ( which makes it ratherC odd that they include a VMSCLUSTER license ). Perhaps students withMH multiple machines are supposed to request multiple sets of licenses, butG that seems like a rather odd requirement - if they're allowed more thanl' one why not just have the T&C's say so.h   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:02:33 -0600 (CST)c From: rmegee@tqtx.comu Subject: oracle question2 Message-ID: <200103191702.LAA26759@exwin.tqtx.com>  0 When running sqlplus I can issue a host command   and it performs as advertised.    &     sql> host write sys$output "test"   * In an oracle forms trigger script the same( command has a slightly different syntax.  %     host('write sys$output "test"') ;   2 Neither of these forms work in a pl/sql statement  from the sqlplus command linee     declaren	     beginn
       commandy     end;       1 my intent is to place a trigger on a table updatea  
 Any ideas?   sqlplus:  Release 3.3.2.0.1e Oracle8i: Release 8.1.6.0.0  vms:      V7.1-1H1   thanks,    Robert Megee -- rP ================================================================================1                                 -----------------y1                                 |  elf Destruct |h1                                 -----------------eK    Never thinking that part of the button's label might have been worn off,cJ    he thought that getting rid of those pesky elves would be a good thing.%    Moments later the ship exploded... P ================================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:23:07 -0500 " From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: Re: oracle question: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010319122109.022e4620@24.8.96.48>  3 At 11:02 AM 3/19/2001 -0600, rmegee@tqtx.com wrote:t2 >Neither of these forms work in a pl/sql statement >from the sqlplus command line
 >     declare  >     beginO >       commando
 >     end;  J PL/SQL's generally executed on the server, not the client. (Well, some of J it at least) That means you generally can't do host commands in triggers. L Instead you're better off having a server program hanging around waiting on L messages from an Oracle pipe, and have the trigger spit a message into that " pipe when it needs something done.  K Besides, even if you could do host commands from triggers, do you *really* (F want everything running with the privs attached to the Oracle account?   					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"------------------- 2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and even.;                                       teddy bears get drunke   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:21:19 -0600 (CST)o From: rmegee@tqtx.comt Subject: Re: oracle question2 Message-ID: <200103191821.MAA26919@exwin.tqtx.com>  5 > At 11:02 AM 3/19/2001 -0600, rmegee@tqtx.com wrote:l4 > >Neither of these forms work in a pl/sql statement  > >from the sqlplus command line > >     declareh
 > >     begins > >       command  > >     end; > L > PL/SQL's generally executed on the server, not the client. (Well, some of L > it at least) That means you generally can't do host commands in triggers. N > Instead you're better off having a server program hanging around waiting on N > messages from an Oracle pipe, and have the trigger spit a message into that $ > pipe when it needs something done. > M > Besides, even if you could do host commands from triggers, do you *really* wH > want everything running with the privs attached to the Oracle account? > G That's kinda what I've concluded.  I'll have to watch for an output in e> and table populated by the trigger.   Thanks for the response.   Robert   -- eP ================================================================================1                                 -----------------t1                                 |  elf Destruct |M1                                 -----------------tK    Never thinking that part of the button's label might have been worn off,oJ    he thought that getting rid of those pesky elves would be a good thing.%    Moments later the ship exploded...cP ================================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:47:56 -0500r" From: Dan Sugalski <dan@sidhe.org> Subject: Re: oracle question: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010319134521.022dfdc8@24.8.96.48>  3 At 12:21 PM 3/19/2001 -0600, rmegee@tqtx.com wrote:l7 > > At 11:02 AM 3/19/2001 -0600, rmegee@tqtx.com wrote:i6 > > >Neither of these forms work in a pl/sql statement" > > >from the sqlplus command line > > >     declarew > > >     begin  > > >       command4 > > >     end; > >rM > > PL/SQL's generally executed on the server, not the client. (Well, some of.M > > it at least) That means you generally can't do host commands in triggers.tE > > Instead you're better off having a server program hanging around u > waiting onK > > messages from an Oracle pipe, and have the trigger spit a message into m > that& > > pipe when it needs something done. > >oN > > Besides, even if you could do host commands from triggers, do you *really*J > > want everything running with the privs attached to the Oracle account? > >sG >That's kinda what I've concluded.  I'll have to watch for an output in?? >and table populated by the trigger.   Thanks for the response.s  J You don't need to go polling any table. Wasteful. Instead, take a look at L the docs for the pipe package (dbms.pipe IIRC, which I might not--it's been J a while). It provides a reasonably nice, blocking communications channel. L Your server process can just do a loop reading from the pipe. When the pipe 8 is empty, the read will block and take up no CPU cycles.     					Dan  I --------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------------c2 Dan Sugalski                          even samurai? dan@sidhe.org                         have teddy bears and evena;                                       teddy bears get drunk2   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:38:53 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman), Subject: Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions1 Message-ID: <xCqt6.132$eE2.6856@news.cpqcorp.net>t  \ In article <87bsr19mbr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:5 :hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:M :>J :>   This has been dealt with already: write access implies delete in COE. :> l9 :>   The requirements for the UID/GID stuff was fun, too.b : C :What about things like removing the group access of a file you ownoD :remove your access, according to POSUX? It is this sort of semantic' :clash that I see being the real worry.   E   These mappings are what makes porting code around and particularly uC   makes implementing standards compliance such "fun".  But you knew 	   that...   D   The POSIX security rules are implemented in the OpenVMS kernel forB   V7.2-6C1.  Yes, these rules are slightly different from those ofE   native OpenVMS environments, and this is something that we are wellPF   aware of for the documentation and particularly for the discussions +   of object access and privilege "leakage".   F   This and related issues of application compatibility -- the securityG   rules are just one part of application compatibility -- are the core eH   reasons why the integration of the DII COE work in V7.2-6C1 back into H   the OpenVMS mainline releases will be a non-trivial project, and will H   not occur for at least several releases.  (AFAIK, this re-integration H   work is currently planned, and currently planned for release sometime     (well?) after OpenVMS V7.3-1.)  E :Oh well, if it screws over SEVMS really well, they might think about ( :changing it! Rather you than me Hoff...  E   POSIX was not part of the SEVMS TCB (nor was multi-platform DECnet,fH   TCP/IP nor other various and familiar packages), and the DII COE work -   will likely not be part of the SEVMS TCB.  h  I   Folks seriously interested in the higher classes of NCSC security have 'L   largely decided upon the use of system-high, which means that multi-level J   security such as SEVMS is not a particular consideration as it once was,K   and not a particular overlap for many of these implementations -- AFAIK,  I   the baseline DII COE standards do not include any multi-level security r'   capabilities nor any associated APIs.b  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 08:37:39 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oV Subject: Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions (was: Re: The Chris and Bill show. Act II3 Message-ID: <wJpk+LD2tWeF@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  e In article <rbxs6.94$eE2.2703@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:e > J >   (Pardon my cringe.)  I have no doubt access to the device driver will H >   be available, I just don't know if it will be officially documented.  D Interesting.  Of course, I also wanted C RTL access to keyed indexedH files and didn't get that (just to the same level of support Fortran has in it's I/O statements).  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationd= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:45:06 -0000r! From: "ph0bos" <ph0bos@shady.org>L) Subject: Re: Possible security hole in...e@ Message-ID: <GImt6.224891$Dd3.3474200@monolith.news.easynet.net>  @ "John E. Malmberg" <malmberg@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:fW0TC5LF$p6Z@eisner.encompasserve.org...:K > In article <Kgqs6.217157$Dd3.3158379@monolith.news.easynet.net>, "ph0bos"  <ph0bos@shady.org> writes: > > E > >     The stated security disclosure policy in this newsgroup's FAQCG > >     prevents me from presenting anything to convince you otherwise.  > G >   The policy that you are mentioning also politely requests that such . >   security holes be sent directly to Compaq. >c: >   It is not clear from your posts if you have done that.  $     I will submit details this week.   >aC > >     If I have time I might knock up some proof-of-concept code.rC > >     Otherwise, you'll have to wait until compaq have had a lookr' > >     and the bugtraq posts come out.e >oH >   If you do not presently have the code, then how can you be confident- >   that you have actually found such a hole?t  J     By proof of concept code, I mean example vulnerable programs, in order notr0     to give away the location of the real holes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:46:22 +00003$ From: Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk3 Subject: Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE^/ Message-ID: <00256A14.005129EE.00@quegw01.btyp>e   cc:n bcc:L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza  * Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE    N I've had permission from the guy who mail this to me [Craig Humphreys] to passP this on as I can't, unfortunately, take the second interview because my wife hasK changed her mind [is that grounds for divorce? ;^D ] so if anyone out therei* would fancy this, get in touch with Craig.  L By the way, having been there before, Singapore is a terrific environment to work in.   Steve Spires  L   ---------------------- Forwarded by Steve Spires/YellowPages on 19/03/2001$ 02:43 PM ---------------------------    C Steve Spires <stevespires@compuserve.com> on 19/03/2001 09:18:13 AM   # To:        Steve Spires/YellowPagesn cc:oN From:      Steve Spires <stevespires@compuserve.com>, 19 March 2001, 9:18 a.m.  * Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE            / -------------Forwarded Message-----------------w  ? From:     "Craig Humphreys", INTERNET:craig@eurotechnique.co.ukr) To:  , INTERNET:craig@eurotechnique.co.ukf   Date:     08/03/01 10:50  / RE:  Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPOREe    E Please pardon the intrusion, I am currently seeking resources for the K following Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE - Permanent / Salariedm PositionF If interested please call me for further info (PS I will not be in the# office tomorrow - Friday 9th March)   7 *** Family Relocation package for 2 year commitment ***   D To support Business Critical Services customers e.g. banks,telecoms,% including proactive/reactive services   
 Essential:@ Min 5 yrs (ideal>10) OpenVMS systems management V6.2 to V7.2-1H1< * VAX & Alphas from AS1000 thru to GS140 or better GS160/3209 *managing large OpenVMS clusters in business critical envp *DECnet Phase IV & DECnet/OSIr *TCP/IP Digital UCXn  
 Desirable: *Crashdump analysis,  *internals programming/knowledge *X25 SNA *Digital Unix/Compaq TRU64  K ***** PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE NOW MOVED TO LONDON - NEW DETAILS BELOW *********t  
 Kind Regards,d   Craig Humphreyso Managing Director,  F EuroTechnique Consulting - Specialists in IT Recruitment & ConsultancyC 61 The London Fruit & Wool Exchange, Old Spitalfields Fruit Market,*  Brushfield Street, London E1 6EX  Direct Line: +44 (0)20 7422 0909  Switchboard: +44 (0)20 7422 0900 Mobile: +44 (0)7970 212909 Fax: +44 (0)20 7247 9154  Email: craig@eurotechnique.co.uk  Website: www.eurotechnique.co.uk  K This Email and any attachments should be read only by those persons to whomMH they are addressed. The information or views expressed in this Email areI those of the individual sender and not Euro-Technique (Computer Services)tD Ltd. (EuroTechnique Consulting). EuroTechnique Consulting accepts noI responsibility for any loss or damage incurred through use of this Email.eK Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification,aE distribution and/or publication of this email is strictly prohibited.s            H ----------------------- Internet Header --------------------------------! Sender: craig@eurotechnique.co.ukn@ Received: from btclick.com (mta02.btfusion.com [62.172.195.247])M      by sphmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) with ESMTP id FAA26262;f)      Thu, 8 Mar 2001 05:50:33 -0500 (EST) 6 Received: from WinProxy.anywhere ([213.123.184.24]) byC           btclick.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05) with SMTP ide6           G9VKS702.1DP; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:50:31 +0000P Received: from 172.20.1.103 by 172.20.1.202 (WinProxy); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:52:58 +0000e3 From: "Craig Humphreys" <craig@eurotechnique.co.uk>  To: <craig@eurotechnique.co.uk>t3 Subject: Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE($ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:51:52 -00005 Message-ID: <001401c0a7bd$c90b4370$670114ac@etws0003>e MIME-Version: 1.0i Content-Type: text/plain;a      charset="iso-8859-1"n Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bito X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal < X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal8 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200         [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beL confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has beenP addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce, distribute or use this transmission.  L Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee is notH intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received thisF transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.  
 Thank you.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:47:19 -0800e" From: Jeff Stern <jastern@uci.edu> Subject: SSU softwares& Message-ID: <3AB62A07.AE4747B@uci.edu>  @ does anyone have a copy of the old SSU (Session Support Utility) softwareA in source that DEC used to release for its VT-series terminals on = vax/vms so the terminals could manage more than one shell pero< connection/wire?  .. or know where i could get such a beast?  A SSU used to run on vms but i want to recompile it for linux (withe Compaq's3 permission), but Compaq themselves cannot find it..s   -- k Jeff Stern <jastern@uci.edu>! Social Science Computing Servicesh  University of California, Irvine Irvine, CA 92697-5100-   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 11:28:33 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)2 Subject: Re: SSU softwaret3 Message-ID: <XuCOvAY2BAXY@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  & In article <3AB62A07.AE4747B@uci.edu>,* Jeff Stern <jastern@uci.education> writes:B > does anyone have a copy of the old SSU (Session Support Utility)L > software in source that DEC used to release for its VT-series terminals on? > vax/vms so the terminals could manage more than one shell pere> > connection/wire?  .. or know where i could get such a beast? >tC > SSU used to run on vms but i want to recompile it for linux (with: > Compaq's permission),c  D The source would probably not do you much good.  It is unlikely thatA you will find at that level of programming that the VMS source is= anything usable on LINUX.   G What you are looking for is the escape sequence that when sent from the G VTxxx terminal to the host when the "Switch Session" key is pressed and < that the terminal will also respond to by switching screens.  H Unfortunately I do not have a VT340 or it's manual handy to give you the= exact escape sequences, finding them should not be difficult.=  M Except for those escape sequences, there is a module in LINUX that implements- what you want.  J And I am only guessing that the present LINUX code does not know about the escape sequences, it might.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only6   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:02:53 -0500i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: SSU software L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1903011202530001@user-2ive7gk.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <3AB62A07.AE4747B@uci.edu>, Jeff Stern <jastern@uci.edu> wrote:  B > does anyone have a copy of the old SSU (Session Support Utility)
 > softwareC > in source that DEC used to release for its VT-series terminals onn? > vax/vms so the terminals could manage more than one shell pere> > connection/wire?  .. or know where i could get such a beast? > C > SSU used to run on vms but i want to recompile it for linux (withi
 > Compaq's5 > permission), but Compaq themselves cannot find it..-  F It still runs on VMS.  It's been on recent software distribution kits,E though I haven't looked at very recent ones.  I didn't know they ever  distributed the source.a  F It seems to depend on some low-level VMS functionality (the FTA device1 driver...).  Is is feasible to port SSU to linux?   I I'm having trouble believing Compaq really lost the source.  Maybe you'veuE asked the wrong person?  Many semi-concious brain-stems are answering2E phones at Compaq these days.  It's part of the strategy to drive away  eager customers.  J Hopefully someone from VMS engineering will see your post and say that SSU has been re-discovered.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:45:49 GMTl5 From: Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org>e Subject: THE EMC Chroniclesr/ Message-ID: <3AB5C73B.17022465@childrenshc.org>   E My place of employ has decided to dive into the EMC pool. (Of course,eG with EMC salesman over her two or three times a week, smoozing with thea1 powers that be, there was considerable pressure.)h  E Anyway, I've been keeping a diary of sorts of our experience with thenG hardware, and gettting it to work on our Alphas. I thought I'd share it 
 with you all.e  F Please pardon any errors, grammatical, formatting, spelling. More than1 anything, I wanted to get my thoughts into words.=     THE EMC Chronicles.   9 EMC Symmetrics and OpenVMS connection history and issues.     A The goal is to have the primary, or source site be our production-	 site... AND secondary, or target, site would be used for development work, under normalF conditions that is. In the event of a disaster, development work would cease,6 and production would continue at the development site.  F As part of this high availability project it was so decided that EMC'sC Symmetrics be a part of that solution. It was decided that the SRDF H functionality would give us replication to a secondary site for critical data.0  D So the quest began as to how to make Symmetrics and VMS play happily	 together.o   First: SCSI.  E After researching versions and revision levels of hardware, software,m	 firmware, A etc, two of the latest differential SCSI adapters were purchased.l
 (KZPBA-CB); Differential was chosen for the physical distance required.L  C There was also a need for high availability, and no single point of. failureaE (NSPOF). The initial configuration we arrived at was as followed. Two  SCSI? adapters, feeding into the EMC. Once inside EMC, the disks were  "presented" to both SCSI ports.  H As a result of this configuration, each device was seen by the operating systemE twice. For example, SCSI ID 0, would have been seen as DKA0, *AND* asa
 DBK0. ThisC presented a problem. The device could only be mounted at one point.t HenceoA available/visible through one SCSI bus. While the device would bel	 availabletG through the second bus, the second path would not be actively used, norh wouldnG any kind of load sharing, or automatic fail-over be available. This did  not meet) the need for high availability, or NSPOF.R  A As an alternative configuration, if the devices were not hardwaren shadowedH within the Symmetrics, then presented to their separate controllers, the hostG would then see truly separate devices on the respective SCSI buses, butC toA achieve NSPOF, host-based shadowing would have to be implemented.    Second attempt: Fibre Channela  E This configuration holds the promise of high availability, NPSOF, and 	 multipath  load balancing.s  @ The configuration is as follows. Two ES40s. Each with two CIPCAs
 connecting to-F StorageWorks storage subsystems. (This is for system disk, and clusterC communication.) Two Fibre Channel adapters (KGPSA-CA). Two Ethernets adapters (DE500).  F Each Fibre channel adapter is connected into each of two Fibre Channel switchesG forming the traditional "Boxed X" redundant configuration. In turn, twox EMC.H ports, presenting the same disks are connected to the switches, one port to eachwD switch. Thus, NSPOF requirements are met. Any single element failure	 would nott bring down the fibre fabric.  = After assuring all ECOs were applied to OpenVMS, hardware wasr configured.c  H The first thing observed was the device number naming. In traditional CI basedeG storage, the unit number can be dictated to anything the System Managert soC decides. This unit number translates directly into the "$1$DUAnnnn"u deviceA number as seen by the operating System. This allows for a logicaln organizationG of various devices... for whatever reason the System Manager wants. Fora example,H the System Manager may wish to group all non-essential data disks in the "100"mE range, while all critical data disks are in the "200, and 300" range.p Ande? Special disks may be in the 1000 range. Whatever the reason fori organizing, theu  unit number can be manually set.  H EMC Symmetrics does not allow for this flexibility. The unit number is a directH hexidecimal to decimal translation of the target and LUN of the physical device.rH This cannot be overridden. If multiple Symmetrics are connected into the fabric,rA there is an offset, for the each Symmetrics platform, that can bef configured.mE This offset can be set, for example to 1000, then devices within that 
 SymmetricsF would have the device number presented added to the offset. This would	 allow the ? same target/LUN device to co-exist on the same OpenVMS system.   Secondly, as theC system grows and expands, and additional disks are added, the diskso
 could fallH anywhere in the hardware range. After the initial configuration of disks isC done, and all Disks are initialized/mounted in an organized fashioni
 additional& disks could disrupt that organization.  G The next feature... Symmetrics allows for different types of disks: 1.)o Disksf@ can be "one-offs" meaning there is no replication, no mirroring, nothing, indB essence, a JBOD. 2.) Symmetrics allows for multiple volumes ganged	 (striped)sC together in a "meta-volume". 3.) Disks can be locally mirrored. 4.)- Disks can be? replicated through SRDF mechanisms. Or a combination of locally.F mirrored/remotely replicated is possible. Other than size, there is no	 method to-D tell one type of disk from another from the "$" prompt. To help ease thisF problem, EMC provides some software that inquires of the hardware it'sF disposition. The size of a given disk can be determined easily enough, but notr the underlying function.  E This can be annoying. Once the initial configuration is complete, ande all isE set.... everything is well. But then a locally striped disk is added,x then aG couple replicated, then a JBOD. Soon your disk mapping is confusing and @ convoluted and disorganized. This is price one has to pay to use Symmetrics. Onei( can live with it... but it isn't pretty.   Second issue....  . Disk size/free blocks giving incorrect data...  G As of this writing, (February 5th,2001) this is unresolved... And it is  unknownmG whether this is a Symmetrics issue, an OpenVMS issue, a hardware issue,- orC what.... Planning and forethought determined that 28 disks would be  necessary toD migrate the production storage to the symmetrics. During the initial testing,F all 28 disks were intialized. Of these disks, 17 disks were to contain the = database. These disks were all initialized with the identicals "INITIALIZE"G command. (number of headers, cluster size, etc.) After these disks were4 mounted,F naturally, the number of free blocks shown from a "show device dg" wasH identical. At this point, a command procedure was used to populate these disks.E The number of files restored to each disk was very few. But the files@
 were quiteD large. After the restoration was complete, the number of free blocks remainedG the same as reported before the restore. Directory commands were issuedi on theE various disks, and files and size results came back accurate. But yetc the free@ blocks indicated did not change. Once the disks in question were dismounted andH remounted, freeblocks were correct. Some disks were dismounted/remounted4 interactively. Other were remounted after a reeboot.  H All fibre channel disks were reporting incorrect data. Because of the 17F database disks being so similar, the anomaly was quickly apparent. The anomalyaG has yet to be reproduced. Multiple efforts were made on single disks tou noF avail. One theory is that... somehow some information was being cached whilesC "show dev dg" was accessing uncached, and as such yet-to-be-flushed  data,-B returning the older, now incorrect values. One theory was that the
 driver was insG an inconsisteant state during the restoration... Dismount/Remount reset  this? state.... Compaq and EMC are working on resolving this. Neither: organization has seen anything similar.     February 22, 2001;  G Compaq has come to the conclusion that the I/O table was confused do tor theeE large amount of mounts/dismounts etc. being done at the time of these G restores... Or..  the mount/dismounting being done caused the freeblock  numberstG to report incorrectly. I've asked that Compaq write me a letter to this  effect.u  H The next issue came up as a result of actually trying to accomplish some work> with the EMC disks. One the source site, EMC disks are mounted read/write. SomeD of these disks are replicated to the target site. There, another VMS system seesvC these disks, and can mount them read-only. So far, so good. Keep ino	 mind, theeE computers at the source site, and the computers at the target site dou NOT knowD about one another. Are not part of a common cluster, etc. This is by
 design. OnH the source side, this is our production system, on the target side, this is ourE development system that also doubles as our disaster production site.i  B Our DBAs (Database Administrators) want to log DB changes to these
 replicatedC disks, then at the remote site read the changes and reproduce theseo
 changes toC a copy of the database there. The database files themselves are not/
 replicatedD through EMC's SRDF process. Only the disks with the log files. This,E theoretically reduces the amount of data being pushed across the SRDFo link.g@ Anyway, while copying files to a replicated disk, the replicated 'target' wasF showing some odd behavior. Files were not present, etc. "no such file" errorsF after source files were deleted, etc. After a dismount/mount, the file andfE directory information was reconciled. I called CSC and was told, as IlD suspected, that this wasn't supported. And it makes sense. I believe that theC disk's directory information was cached, and the cache wasn't beingo updated. IfSG a node has a volume mounted read-only, and as-far-as-it-knows, no otherL node isEE accessing that volume, then no changes can be made to that volume, soi	 why would,C the computer even need to go out to that disk and refresh directorytF information. CSC agreed. CSC suggested mounting the disk "/nocache" to see ifF this would solve the problem. In a way this has done as we wished. Any accessF to the disk in question, by the target host, goes to the disk, and not throughaD any cache. This is good that changes are seen right away.... The bad news isaE that by doing a show device, the freeblocks does not change with filee creationF and deletion. So.. while accessing files seems to be OK.... One cannot trustrF the freeblock information about such a disk. What other aspects of the target' copy have yet to arise, I don't know...n     February 27, 2001r  H We've just discovered a new wrinkle in our database reproduction theory.  G To recap, the database at the source site will be writing archive filest to aG disk. That disk, through EMC will be recplicated at the target site. At  thenG target site, another database is going to read those archive files, ando. reproduce those changes to the database there.  F We've found out that the database at the target site wants to open the archiveEH files read-write.... One can't do that on a read-only disk. One solution toD this dilemna is to have break the replication, mount the target copyE read-write, do the archiving, dismount the disk, and re-establish the8 replication.....  A Yyeeeuchk! This keeps getting more complicated every time we turn8
 around....F This unsynch-mount-dismount-resynch series is supposed to happen every halfC hour.... I really don't like yet another layer of complication.....I  E On top of this... there's the issue of having production data readily$	 available0@ on our development systems.... Granted it's a copy of production data.... ButH we split the cluster into two clusters to separate development away fromF production. Why? To help garauntee the integrity of production data... With the@ current database reproduction theory being persued, I don't feel comfortable2? with the integrity of the production data on the target system.t  
 March 2, 2001t  E We've solved the issue with the database archive files.... It's kindas kludgey,H but I've seen/heard of uglier. The solution is as follows. There will be a D disk, mounted on the target site.. The Oracle reproduction operation	 will copynE files from the read-only disk to this temporary disk, then read/writew openD them... and apply them to the reproduction database..... Apparently,	 this is atH temporary solution... because at some point in the near future Oracle 8i will+ be installed and this won't be necessary...r  E I met with EMC people yesterday... We were working on the "scripting"B (dernEG unixoids... everything's a script.) First off they sent out people that  onlyC had experience with Windows NT.... I guess at EMC whenever somebodyr reads orF hears "VMS" they go brain-dead or something and figure that people who canwE simultaneously walk and chew bubble gum are intellectually capable ofv	 answeringn$ any VMS questions that come to mind.  F Anyway, we're working on this script... We managed to break a BCV set, andn< resynch it.... And we did a fail-over and a fail-back... So, technically, things seem to be possible...5  A There are a few new gothca's.... A BCV is a "Business Continuance- Volume". TheF idea behind a BCV is to break it off, so a host can play with the data on theE BCV without impacting the data on the source... Once you're done withA the BCV,H resynch with the production... and away you go...  Kinda like breaking aE shadow-set and remerging it.... To answer your skeptism... yes... the  onlyH sure-fire way of assuring data-integrity would be to flush any cache you maymE have before doing the break... and yes, as any good VMS administratorc	 will tellcA you, the only way to do that is to dismount the disk, and remount  without thetE member you want to independently manipulate. Nothing has changed withc EMC. EMC calls this a "dirty break."f  B Once the BCV is broken off, the host can now access that volume...
 here's theE gotcha.... That BCV is an entirely new and different physical device.o	 Again, asxD any good VMS administrator will tell you, you can't have two volumes mountedtF (sytem wide) with the same label. This may or may not be an issue with what? each site is trying to do... But it's something to be aware of.q  G About manipulating EMC devices. All of this can be done through the DCLe prompt.tC There are "device groups" and you can "split" and "failover" devicem groups.sC Within device groups are your different devices. That includes youre standardE devices, your replicated devices (Either "R1s" or "R2s") and your BCV- devices.H Once you group them together... Which I admit is kinda handy.... you can SplitnG your BCV off for all the devices in a given group. OR you can fail-overn a-D group. etc. This, again, can be handy. One command splitting all the disks inE the group, instead of one-by-one splitting. Though I didn't try it...e It'sF supposed to be possible to specify one device within a group. I asked. "Is itE possible for a device to be in more than one device group, the answers wasdF 'no'." I'm actually glad the answer is no. It's important to group the devicest@ according to function of use, and what you plan to do with them.  " There is one more issue, so far...  D On a device group - by device group basis you can have SRDF running. Your? application/system/host/node can have one or more device groupst
 associated to D it. When you're running the application at the primary site, data is
 replicatedC to the secondary site. Cool, that's what high-availability/disaster  recovery isl
 all about.  E But it's become apparent that there may be reasons (other than a sitee	 disaster)uE to transition operations from source to target (primary to secondary)r for anC extended period amount of time.... When you've "failed-over" to the 	 secondarymH site.... for that application... the replication is no longer going back to theC primary site... What happens if there's a disaster at the secondarys site?o  E The EMC people believe this isn't an issue and that there is indeed aM way ofG turning the replication around the other way... How involved that is...n I don'teF know.... I don't know if this is something I can manipulate, or if the EMCd" configuration needs to be changed.  F That brings up another point I hadn't found out before. If there truly is aG disaster at the primary site, and the EMC fails, is destroyed, or for a  million F other reasons is unusable... And you go to the secondary site with theF expectation the "boot up and go". Wrong... EMC has to be notified, and theyG have to go into the configuration of the target site and "amputate" thetF connection. This adds one more player to the disaster recovery "game."  
 March 7, 2001S  F EMC people are due here again today to continue the training necessary for ourt site. We have more questions:N  D 1. As I spoke of before, can a "role-reversal" be done? Can the SRDF link beoB "flip-flopped". At the source site there are "R1" disks. These are
 replicatedE to the target site's "R2" disks. During a fail-over. The SRDF link is  turnedH off, and R2 are usable. BUT the R1s are nolonger touched. In any way! So it istG my hopes that the SRDF can be "role-reversed" so what where the R2s cano be SRDFcE replicated back to what were the R1s. When a "fail-back" is executed.e The R2scG are remerged back with the R1s. Then they both return to their originale roles.  C 2. Our DBAs have come across a Database issue. Something to do with  controlfE files, etc... Now we have to add a step on our target site's Recoveryc steps...G We have to split off the BCVs and try to bring the Database on-line. Ifb thingsA go well, then we bring the BCVs back into the fold. Otherwise, wen dismount theH R2s, restore from the BCVs, split them apart again, remount the R2s, and tryt@ something else, etc. Until we're happy with the condition of the Database onrE the target site... So I have to find out about that... I need to finde out the @ steps for either restoring, or re-establishing the R2-BCV pairs.  ? 3. When defining all these device groups, I'm thinking that I'm  kinda-sortaiF building a configuration file on my local host.... Then when I do moreC query-like operations, it looks at this configuration file and doesoE manipulations and then responds to me with a combination of what's ini the H config file, and what the status of the hardware is... Maybe another way toE think of it would be like a "logical translation matrix." When I tellm thecB Symmetrics to split a device group. It goes through the matrix and figures outsC the hardware I'm talking about, and does the operation. When I do a,
 query on aG device group, again it goes through the matrix, down into the hardware,a getsH the information, then back up through the martix to present the results. I'm B curious as to content of this file. Where is it located? How is itE written/read? Can I read it? I can't think of a reason I'd want to...h	 but maybey3 some-one may have a need. Hmmm... things to ponder.n  A I've learned that it is very important to group your EMC disks byb
 function, andt= disposition. That'll make your device group manipulation moren straight-forwardH later. As I said earlier there are different kinds of devices. There are localeF disks. These are called M1s. Basically, this behaves just like a JBOD. ThereeG are Replicated disks; R1s. These are replicated. The R1s are the sourcee disk.fD They are matched with the target replicants, R2s at the target site.	 There arerH BCVs. These Business Continuance Volumes can be attached and de-attached to anyD M1, R1, or R2. Within a Symmetric of course. Then finally, there areF meta-volumes. These are striped versions of the M1s, R1s, and R2s. and then ofnG course BCVs can be "paired" with them as well. As you build your devicei= groupings, think of the purposes of these disks. Will they beh replicated? WillE they be locally mirrored? Will the local mirror need to be split fromn thedE source? Etc. Etc. These technical goals can be accomplished. But takeh	 your time B planning this all out... THEN, only then, purchase the hardware...         -- o Lyndon F. Bartelsu VMS Systems Administratorl Childrens Hospitals and Clinics  lyndon.bartels#childrenshc.org 651-855-2504 (work)e 651-855-2570 (fax)   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:28:27 GMTc, From: "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com>2 Subject: Trade Alpha software distribution for VAX; Message-ID: <LXmt6.88469$Fz.18408423@typhoon.austin.rr.com>   m I've got an extra copy of the distribution kit for 7.2-1 that I'd like to trade for a 7+ copy of the VAX set.p   -- d6 Jay E. Morris, Epsilon 3 Productions, Web site hosting) http:\\www.epsilon3.com  e3p@epsilon3.ocmS   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:32:17 +0000s3 From: greg elkin <cmkrnl@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk>a" Subject: Re: uVax3100 m10 & VMS5.28 Message-ID: <nf9cbt45udc0fpgjk35rli72kmhpb70v13@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:02:04 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoffo Hoffman) wrote:hH >  Please get it on order now, and move to something (far) more current I >  than V5.2.  Also read and heed the system disk size limit information hJ >  that is included in the FAQ.  In particular, you will want to (try to) D >  acquire an RZ26 series disk or other similarly-sized system disk.  A I've got my OpenVMS hobbyist CD now, installed OpenVMS 7.2 onto ac! Connor 200Mb SCSI disk on DKB300.m  ? Just stuck now with finding the PAKs to enter for the installedtA products - where should the PAKs be - on the CD, an email, web or  what?h   ta greg   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:35:08 +0000.3 From: greg elkin <cmkrnl@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk>o" Subject: Re: uVax3100 m10 & VMS5.28 Message-ID: <j8dcbt0qqvf7vj1466r4mtr471722uie9k@4ax.com>  $ Ah, there they are, on the web site!( http://www.montagar.com/htbin/ohp_hobreg   :-)    greg   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:57:31 -0800s0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>C Subject: VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)t, Message-ID: <3AB1E38B.328CE67B@Mvb.Saic.Com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > L > Turn it around, Christof. Why don't people use VMS, if Unix sucks so much?M > Because that's where the apps run. If you make those same apps available on J > VMS then VMS becomes a viable option in many areas where it is currentlyL > not viable now. You try selling a manager VMS for a web server that serves$ > out Real Networks streaming media: >dL > Manager: I want to provide streaming Real Networks media to our customers.- > Techie: Can I interest you in a VMS system?"/ > Manager: Does Real Networks server run on it?)- > Techie: Well, no, but it's really robust...tL > Manager looks at Techie as if he's grown a second head, and makes a mental4 > note to surf Dice.com looking for a new techie....  B And then we have the problem where people think that VMS cannot doH something when, in fact, it can.  Case in point, my VMS-based web serverE serves out Real Networks streaming media (and Quicktime streaming andDC Media Player streaming).  I am puzzled over why you would think VMSs couldn't do this?c  
 Mark Berrymane Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Mar 2001 11:00:21 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>G Subject: Re: VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program) 6 Message-ID: <20010319110021.26416.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  F On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> wrote:# >Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote:a   <snip>  M >> Manager: I want to provide streaming Real Networks media to our customers. . >> Techie: Can I interest you in a VMS system?0 >> Manager: Does Real Networks server run on it?. >> Techie: Well, no, but it's really robust...M >> Manager looks at Techie as if he's grown a second head, and makes a mental.5 >> note to surf Dice.com looking for a new techie....C >eC >And then we have the problem where people think that VMS cannot do I >something when, in fact, it can.  Case in point, my VMS-based web servertF >serves out Real Networks streaming media (and Quicktime streaming andD >Media Player streaming).  I am puzzled over why you would think VMS >couldn't do this? >u >Mark Berryman >Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Comr  D Oh well, I guess that's a case of back to Dice.com to look for a new
 techie. ;)     Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----a Version: N/A  @ iQEVAwUBOrU98sriC3SGiziTAQEDKwf+Igs9fBjjLoJkbRTlLNM5yhd6nNTUQCFL@ 9P9PJjiJgaaONLl5kxlp7//VNoMCXreBMRwynV6cWmwrY3oAI9TqOqjNeX7xF/2D@ DZ+i/hGRWGNDz+9PnguQsXq66rwXANvtqIGWWS4B+ba0Pzk4EXvcuR9FUvz1MmxU@ UHX3awDqdRzIZJgTEJSxEypPVQRPAxEyY7qxZ3QU7N0IeWj83ZZL6Rkv/tLFL38t@ mr5jck+r3WDNiZkIOj1FjJ6nRHrcDABLAOFPemX9qZDABPtn0RomzirVXl7HcI2r8 z0JE6Rx7i0C/95DGscvXXdqXrkFAgHXuEMkCDECNndJGcU5f5JZHyg== =MR9Qh -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----r   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:04:54 GMT 3 From: robert.removethis@mimer.se (Robert Sundstrm)p8 Subject: Re: What databases are still available on vms ?, Message-ID: <99578b$4b9$1@dagobert.mimer.se>   Hello.L Since 8.2 (released on VMS in December 2000), Mimer SQL is freely available > for development purposes and a maximum of 10 concurrent users.  F The download is available at http://www.mimer.com/download . Also see L http://developer.mimer.com for more information on the product and database  programming in general.n  5 "Peter Ljungberg" <peter.p.ljungberg@telia.se> wrote:s >h >Not Free:  Mimerv >See: www.mimer.se >Mimer 7 process based >Mimer 8 pthread based# >and even older Mimer 5 for VAX/VMSi1 >I think Mimer4 for VAX/VMS is free, I'm not sure  >/P.Lj >lJ >"Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr> wrote in message) >news:966jbq$m0d$1@reader1.imaginet.fr...i >> Hi all !y >>4 >> What datadabases are still available on OpenVMS ? >> Any freeware ?s   -l) Robert Sundstrm, Mimer RDBMS Developmentw4 Upright Database Technology AB, http://www.mimer.comB Mimer is the standardized RBMS with optimistic concurrency control   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:53:08 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n7 Subject: Re: [BUG] RPC code output example wrong in docy8 Message-ID: <mhsbbt8gbqu9136upf8olmncgshbc82a66@4ax.com>  9 On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:29:27 -0500, "John Gemignani, Jr."g <john@ossc.DELETE.net> wrote:t   >How did I miss that?w >.K >Documentation eventually burns into your eyes like an old VT terminal, andaF >you eventually can't see the mistakes no matter how obvious they are.  B There are one or two words I spell wrongly religiously. I know theB correct spelling but that is not what I type. However when I proofE read back it appears to be correct. I've even been known to over-ride  spell-checkers   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:33:37 GMTt, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>* Subject: Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing& Message-ID: <3AB5B63B.8C7A9F06@gmx.ch>   Martin Vorlaender wrote: >  > $ DEFINE DFU$NOSMG 1 > $ MCR DFUn > DFU> dir/alias sys$sysdevice:v   ISLKP1_dmo> mc dfu+ %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image DFU O -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found $1$DGA1:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DFU.EXE;n
 OpenVMS 7.2-1m   cu Didier   :-)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:03:33 +0100t, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>* Subject: Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing* Message-ID: <994sjl$9bh$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  ! Install DFU from the freeware CD.e  	 Bart Zorns  9 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in messageo  news:3AB5B63B.8C7A9F06@gmx.ch... > Martin Vorlaender wrote: > >s > > $ DEFINE DFU$NOSMG 1
 > > $ MCR DFUv! > > DFU> dir/alias sys$sysdevice:s >. > ISLKP1_dmo> mc dfu- > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image DFUr' > -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not foundt) $1$DGA1:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DFU.EXE;t > OpenVMS 7.2-1o >r > cu > Didier >i > :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:21:54 +0100l2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: [Q] skip [vms$common] parsing; Message-ID: <3ab63222.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>d  - Didier Morandi (Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch) wrote:s > Martin Vorlaender wrote: > >  > > $ DEFINE DFU$NOSMG 1
 > > $ MCR DFU.! > > DFU> dir/alias sys$sysdevice:  >l > ISLKP1_dmo> mc dfu- > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image DFUaQ > -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found $1$DGA1:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]DFU.EXE;, > OpenVMS 7.2-1p  ) I'd say you have an incomplete system :-)e  6 The Disk and File Utility (DFU) is an invaluable tool.   cu,s   Martin -- eJ One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deuJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.156 ************************ectually capable ofv	 answeringn$ any VMS questions that come to mind.  F Anyway, we're working on this script... We managed to break a BCV set, andn< resynch it.... And we did a fail-over an2M'6EbE`68N@[k6j5h&ZY,K!9r30Braf$YDF@I)3r1e99DV,#UZe,'j'ei'Nd"94 @p#V`fIQmp)aXjlUk6C"Gpr[E&cCr',pbKZE(jSpGkY[(j1h-HjZq6l*icRlQTc!c5 @V$[AaQ6U@el2jNfbk,T&2D$k5SVRDr,hqCdhrV[1D#mH6jqaeSrrqI"T6U8ke$-# 6 @L%*Zr2m(mcChKr0fHB$qGSBp"URT9a&lFYQC0Kmr%LVq-fkX)pk&&A6Xp4hmdC4[
5 0 58066.06542^^6721 0 151 L<< Can anyone suggest an alternative to Pagemaker - Ijust need a simple page2 Glayout program for a newsletter. Pagemaker is so expensive for a single3 project. >>4 ***************       I