1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 21 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 159       Contents:P Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was P Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (wF Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?F Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?F Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?F Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?$ Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systems$ Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systems Changing DECwindows colors Re: Changing DECwindows colors RE: Changing DECwindows colors Re: Changing DECwindows colors RE: Changing DECwindows colors Re: Datatrieve - DTR1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 
 DocSet Wanted  Re: DocSet Wanted ' Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!  Good News for VMS  Re: Good News for VMS : HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks...> Re: HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks...> Re: HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks.../ Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet?  Re: LICENSE PURGE ?  Re: LICENSE PURGE ? ' Re: login failure when sysuaf is locked ' Re: login failure when sysuaf is locked  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  RE: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program  Re: RMS Alpha COBOL and RMS-STS . Re: Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE Re: system logicals  sytem logicals Re: sytem logicals Re: sytem logicals Re: TCP/IP 5.0A ECO Appears  Re: THE EMC Chronicles> Re: VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 19:00:18 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>Y Subject: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was  6 Message-ID: <20010320190018.21941.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  A On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  >> -----Original Message----- ; >> From: bdwheele@indiana.edu [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu]  > F >[I will only comment on the beginning of this incredibly long message >-Chris]  0 I won't, I'll comment on the entire damn thread.  A >> care to point to these analysis?  I submit to you that 80% of   >> all statistics  >> on usenet are made up.  >  >Yep.  Or more.    Actually, no . . .    1         According to the latest official figures, 6         43.6% of all statistics are totally worthless.     >> <sarcasm>; >> Oh, and nobody has ever written a bad app for VMS, they   >> always stick to >> unix for that! 
 >> </sarcasm>  > L >Well, it could be argued the VMS's design makes it more difficult (assumingB >you're after a _functional_ app) to write poor code in some ways.  I I've been following this "VMS is the best thing since Alan Turing's time"  argument for too long now.  K If COE is the lifeline that might help bring VMS out of relative obscurity, H fine. End of Discussion. Please! [Even Andrew seems to agree with that!]  K Does it mean VMS will become UN*Xified? No, never. It will remain different K from UN*X (that is, not better in all circumstances). this should be simple G and obvious. Security through obscurity might suit some, but it doesn't  wash for serious usage.   A VMS has *no* job security if it remains hidden in obscure places.   G Please, please, remember that it isn't about survival of the fittest in E terms of elegance or robustness. Numerical superiority has a habit of 1 winning when you are fighting a war of attrition.   H Anyway, the options and issues discussed in this thread simply look likeJ nonsense. I've still got my sharp engineer's pencil - and that solves moreF problems than *any* sort of computer. We are discussing tools, and theK black vs. white arguments promoted herein look like comparing square wheels K with triangular ones. They're all round, but some come with pneumatic tyres 5 (unlike Weeniedoze which doesn't survive bumpy apps).      Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOraPcsriC3SGiziTAQH2ZQf+Jr8mwZLdtmpkNG9Go6mvnzbFj6A4ipL+@ 8EbvRsW8QmLrSnHjP4e3gw3/GMJ+XWnzRIwIkcXTc6k1pttCKR23qz86ZO6GHajl@ fPxW/1q2vWUJbUSwI7aq5qZblDoPqcRoN6QiPwoXR/S+1guyUpJMbhGh0mCXNGH5@ 5igPLLGBwkpBMpo5CTp14iOmDMpYn0D6PWo932hLlXXAhANd7gGYhlv8Xxu+/wGz@ Wocb7GNqvNkxd8SVgXGMhuqtHeiWw0Fr16X1S/EmV/vnBggOvO8ruybks3xyAvbJ8 kme9OQDr9oFjtUjBVLcqxy6gTbUDsaUvPiXxKYkvGjmYFLL6o6c+lA== =oSeb  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:30:28 -0800 ! From: Don Sykes <don@alphase.com> Y Subject: Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (w + Message-ID: <3AB7CBF4.4A1122FC@alphase.com>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------799061859A961D9362620EBB) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>F I agree with your argument - I think. The best doesn't always win. VMSJ is the best kept secret in the industry; so what is this COE I keep seeingJ ? I seemed to have lost the beginning of this thread. Is it a new standard$ to replace the old POSIX interface ?I <br>I've done VMS to Unix &amp; Unix to VMS ports and from my perspective G it's mostly the file specification differences that cause problems. The G C RTL has gotten better and where there are differences a jacket can be J made to alleviate those differences. Of course DCL vs x-schells are a hugeK problem, but if file syntax's were compatible it would help a lot. My point H here is that if porting from Unix could be easy, VMS would start looking' a lot better to a lot of non-VMS folks.  <br>Don  <p>"Doc.Cypher" wrote:8 <blockquote TYPE=CITE>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----G <p>On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Christopher Smith &lt;csmith@amdocs.com> wrote: ! <br>>> -----Original Message----- i <br>>> From: bdwheele@indiana.edu [<a href="mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu">mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu</a>]  <br>> J <br>>[I will only comment on the beginning of this incredibly long message <br>>-Chris]3 <p>I won't, I'll comment on the entire damn thread. H <p>>> care to point to these analysis?&nbsp; I submit to you that 80% of <br>>> all statistics  <br>>> on usenet are made up.  <br>>  <br>>Yep.&nbsp; Or more. <p>Actually, no . . . N <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; According to the latest official figures,F <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 43.6% of all statistics are totally worthless. <p>>> &lt;sarcasm>> <br>>> Oh, and nobody has ever written a bad app for VMS, they <br>>> always stick to <br>>> unix for that!  <br>>> &lt;/sarcasm> <br>> F <br>>Well, it could be argued the VMS's design makes it more difficult	 (assuming F <br>>you're after a _functional_ app) to write poor code in some ways.F <p>I've been following this "VMS is the best thing since Alan Turing's time"  <br>argument for too long now.N <p>If COE is the lifeline that might help bring VMS out of relative obscurity,L <br>fine. End of Discussion. Please! [Even Andrew seems to agree with that!]N <p>Does it mean VMS will become UN*Xified? No, never. It will remain differentH <br>from UN*X (that is, not better in all circumstances). this should be simpleK <br>and obvious. Security through obscurity might suit some, but it doesn't  <br>wash for serious usage. D <p>VMS has *no* job security if it remains hidden in obscure places.G <p>Please, please, remember that it isn't about survival of the fittest  inF <br>terms of elegance or robustness. Numerical superiority has a habit of5 <br>winning when you are fighting a war of attrition. F <p>Anyway, the options and issues discussed in this thread simply look likeI <br>nonsense. I've still got my sharp engineer's pencil - and that solves  moreF <br>problems than *any* sort of computer. We are discussing tools, and the H <br>black vs. white arguments promoted herein look like comparing square wheelsI <br>with triangular ones. They're all round, but some come with pneumatic  tyres 9 <br>(unlike Weeniedoze which doesn't survive bumpy apps).  <p>Doc.   <p>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- <br>Version: 2.6.2C <p>iQEVAwUBOraPcsriC3SGiziTAQH2ZQf+Jr8mwZLdtmpkNG9Go6mvnzbFj6A4ipL+ D <br>8EbvRsW8QmLrSnHjP4e3gw3/GMJ+XWnzRIwIkcXTc6k1pttCKR23qz86ZO6GHajlD <br>fPxW/1q2vWUJbUSwI7aq5qZblDoPqcRoN6QiPwoXR/S+1guyUpJMbhGh0mCXNGH5D <br>5igPLLGBwkpBMpo5CTp14iOmDMpYn0D6PWo932hLlXXAhANd7gGYhlv8Xxu+/wGzD <br>Wocb7GNqvNkxd8SVgXGMhuqtHeiWw0Fr16X1S/EmV/vnBggOvO8ruybks3xyAvbJ< <br>kme9OQDr9oFjtUjBVLcqxy6gTbUDsaUvPiXxKYkvGjmYFLL6o6c+lA==	 <br>=oSeb , <br>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----</blockquote> </html>   & --------------799061859A961D9362620EBB- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;   name="don.vcf"  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ' Content-Description: Card for Don Sykes   Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="don.vcf"    begin:vcard  n:Sykes;Don $ tel;cell:Available to customers only tel;fax:415-485-6895 tel;work:415-457-8532  x-mozilla-html:TRUE  org:Alpha Software Express, LLC 8 adr:;;1380 Lincoln Ave - Suite 5;San Rafael;CA;94901;USA version:2.1  email;internet:don@alphase.com! title:Principal Software Engineer ^ note;quoted-printable:Website:  http://alphase.com=0D=0AResume: http://alphase.com/DonsCV.html x-mozilla-cpt:;5904  fn:Don Sykes	 end:vcard   ( --------------799061859A961D9362620EBB--   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 02:25:13 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>O Subject: Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from? - Message-ID: <877l1k47sm.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   5 gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes:    > In articleD > <Pine.LNX.4.21.0103200918170.24113-100000@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net>,< > Daniel Seagraves <dseagrav@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net> writes:  @ > >I'm used to UNIXes, sorry...  Anyway, I have a VAXserver 3100F > >(unknown model, but it's unable to boot from a CD-ROM), a few disks9 > >for it (210 meg each), and an OpenVMS hobbyist CD-ROM. 8                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^C > You should be able to boot from CD-ROM unless your CD-ROM doesn't E > support 512 byte blocks. Some CD-ROMs need a jumper sat in order to  > use 512 byte blocks.  2 Is the Hobby CD bootable? Never seen one myself...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:02:44 +0000 + From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> O Subject: Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from? ' Message-ID: <3AB7D384.1B1996DE@iee.org>    Paul Repacholi wrote: 4 > Is the Hobby CD bootable? Never seen one myself...  5 I'm not sure whether you mean "are there any bootable 5 OpenVMS CDs"; if that is what you mean then yes there  are.    . Alpha does not (or did not when last I looked)/ support booting from tape, so initial bootstrap & has to be over the network or from CD.  * The most recent OpenVMS VAX CDs (from V7.2- onwards certainly, possibly further back too) . are also bootable ... try booting root [SYS1].   Antonio      --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:53:58 +0100 + From: Arne Bergseth <Arne.Bergseth@dnv.com> O Subject: Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from? ' Message-ID: <3AB817C6.41AA89AA@dnv.com>    Paul Repacholi wrote:    > 4 > Is the Hobby CD bootable? Never seen one myself... >   5 Yes, the Hobby CD is bootable, both on VAX and Alpha, ; the requirement is that the CD reader must support 512 byte J blocks in order to function as a boot device, as explained in the previous	 articles.   E On a VAX 3100 it should be possible to get a list of devices from the  console by:  >>> SHOW DEVICE   0 On the VAX CD the default root directory [SYS0.] contains  Standalone Backup. >>> BOOT   /0   bootdevice  , On the VAX CD the root directory 1   [SYS1.]0 contains a minimum VMS system which is bootable." >>> BOOT  /10000000     bootdevice: This minimum VMS system on VAX is able to do DCL commands,  C It is the .B save set that contain the initial operating system eg.  VMS072.BG and it must be unpacked by BACKUP into the disk which is to become  the  new system disk.7 See also  http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/install.html   
 Arne Bergseth    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 12:30:46 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>O Subject: Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from? - Message-ID: <87elvreoax.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes:    > Paul Repacholi wrote: 6 > > Is the Hobby CD bootable? Never seen one myself... > 7 > I'm not sure whether you mean "are there any bootable 7 > OpenVMS CDs"; if that is what you mean then yes there  > are.    G No, I know that CDs are, or can be bootable, I'm wondering if the Hobby  kits ARE bootable.  < Can't imagine they are ot, but, it would be nice to be sure.     --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 17:15:44 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - Subject: Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systems 3 Message-ID: <CdoM3BITun17@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <7bsebt4bj3ppeevp68rforlc99h4taqpqk@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > H > I see COE as a good idea but the major catalyst to stimulate VMS salesF > would be a port of SAP R3. SAP running on top of RDB would blow awayD > the competition if done properly. And just maybe the COE work will" > make a SAP port that bit easier,  G Somehow I don't think RDB's API is one that's likely to show up in COE.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 12:37:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systems - Message-ID: <87ae6fenzo.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e  I > Somehow I don't think RDB's API is one that's likely to show up in COE.N  J Pity really. The interfaces are SQL, and Relational Binary Interface, RBI.I RBI was sent to ANSI as a standard proposal yonks ago, but went no where.f   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:36:16 -0800 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> # Subject: Changing DECwindows colorsr9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELFCDAA.tom@kednos.com>   I Am running 6.2 and when I try to changie the colors from the options pulleK down it seems to work, but says that it will only take effect withnew apps.lE So launching emacs verifies that it does, but a new decwindow doesn'tEG change.  I close the session log back in and nothing has changed.  ThisM shouldn't be so difficult.   What is the trick?   TIAE   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:01:37 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)' Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorse1 Message-ID: <BbSt6.182$eE2.9929@news.cpqcorp.net>u  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELFCDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:w :Am running 6.2 ...a  H   OpenVMS VAX or OpenVMS Alpha V6.2?  (If it were a VAX, that would tell/   me I don't need to discuss DECwindows CDE.)  u  J   Which version of DECwindows is in use?  (If a sufficiently old version, H   that too would tell me that I can assume DECwindows Motif, unless this,   is the very old DECwindows XUI interface.)  C :and when I try to changie the colors from the options pull down...X     Um, which options pulldown?d  J :...it seems to work, but says that it will only take effect withnew apps.F :So launching emacs verifies that it does, but a new decwindow doesn't
 :change.    B   A "new DECwindow"?  Do you mean new DECterm?  If so, the DECtermE   controller process itself has already logged in long ago, and would?B   need to be restarted.  Most X Windows utilities also have color <   capabilities via entries in the DECwindows resource files.  J :I close the session log back in and nothing has changed.  This shouldn't  :be so difficult.  :P :What is the trick?C  C   If DECwindows CDE, you must log all the way out and back in, thisO1   to save the settings and to restart everything.J  C   If DECwindows Motif, you must save the settings via the menu, andoE   (to change the settings in everything running) log out and back in.a  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:44:49 -0800 ! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>a' Subject: RE: Changing DECwindows colors 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELHCDAA.tom@kednos.com>d  J It is DECterm on Alpha 6.2.  It looks the same as was on Ultrix.  Not sure tell what version it is,K but I do note that I have a license for DW-MOTIF, which may or may not mean>K anything.  Anyway based on your response I guess I would have to select Decl! sindows-Motif -- final answer.  I2  H The Options I was referring to was the pull down on the Session Manager, which has a number of entriesrE such as window colors, Save Session manager and so on.  So I hit SaveFG Session Manger after making the changes, logged out and back in.  Nada.l same as before.b   > -----Original Message-----; > From: Hoff Hoffman [mailto:hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam]n' > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:02 PMl > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0) > Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorse >d >p? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELFCDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomd! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:  > :Am running 6.2 ...s >iJ >   OpenVMS VAX or OpenVMS Alpha V6.2?  (If it were a VAX, that would tell/ >   me I don't need to discuss DECwindows CDE.)  > K >   Which version of DECwindows is in use?  (If a sufficiently old version,eJ >   that too would tell me that I can assume DECwindows Motif, unless this. >   is the very old DECwindows XUI interface.) >nE > :and when I try to changie the colors from the options pull down...t >l >   Um, which options pulldown?e >aL > :...it seems to work, but says that it will only take effect withnew apps.H > :So launching emacs verifies that it does, but a new decwindow doesn't
 > :change. > D >   A "new DECwindow"?  Do you mean new DECterm?  If so, the DECtermG >   controller process itself has already logged in long ago, and wouldgC >   need to be restarted.  Most X Windows utilities also have color > >   capabilities via entries in the DECwindows resource files. >sK > :I close the session log back in and nothing has changed.  This shouldn't  > :be so difficult.r > :s > :What is the trick?o >yE >   If DECwindows CDE, you must log all the way out and back in, this 3 >   to save the settings and to restart everything.a >iE >   If DECwindows Motif, you must save the settings via the menu, andnG >   (to change the settings in everything running) log out and back in.n >o2 >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> > -----------------------------e5 >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --  www.openvms.compaq.com*  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------NL    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:51:16 -0500C2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com>' Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorsk8 Message-ID: <_MTt6.80444$lj4.2180847@news6.giganews.com>  / I always look at the date of the dec*.dat filesy. this will indicate if the save session worked.' $dir/date=mod/since=today sys$login:*.*P* I also notced that the save-session exists  in the decterm window menu also. Bill  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELHCDAA.tom@kednos.com...gL > It is DECterm on Alpha 6.2.  It looks the same as was on Ultrix.  Not sure > tell what version it is,H > but I do note that I have a license for DW-MOTIF, which may or may not meanI > anything.  Anyway based on your response I guess I would have to selectl Deci# > sindows-Motif -- final answer.  I/ >>J > The Options I was referring to was the pull down on the Session Manager, > which has a number of entriestG > such as window colors, Save Session manager and so on.  So I hit SavehI > Session Manger after making the changes, logged out and back in.  Nada.i > same as before.e >n > > -----Original Message-----= > > From: Hoff Hoffman [mailto:hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam]i) > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:02 PM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com + > > Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorst > >e > > A > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELFCDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomb# > > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:t > > :Am running 6.2 ...n > >eL > >   OpenVMS VAX or OpenVMS Alpha V6.2?  (If it were a VAX, that would tell1 > >   me I don't need to discuss DECwindows CDE.)o > >hD > >   Which version of DECwindows is in use?  (If a sufficiently old version,L > >   that too would tell me that I can assume DECwindows Motif, unless this0 > >   is the very old DECwindows XUI interface.) > > G > > :and when I try to changie the colors from the options pull down...  > > ! > >   Um, which options pulldown?b > >iH > > :...it seems to work, but says that it will only take effect withnew apps. J > > :So launching emacs verifies that it does, but a new decwindow doesn't > > :change. > > F > >   A "new DECwindow"?  Do you mean new DECterm?  If so, the DECtermI > >   controller process itself has already logged in long ago, and would&E > >   need to be restarted.  Most X Windows utilities also have color;@ > >   capabilities via entries in the DECwindows resource files. > >tC > > :I close the session log back in and nothing has changed.  Thisb	 shouldn'tV > > :be so difficult.  > > :o > > :What is the trick?  > >>G > >   If DECwindows CDE, you must log all the way out and back in, thisk5 > >   to save the settings and to restart everything.f > >oG > >   If DECwindows Motif, you must save the settings via the menu, andVI > >   (to change the settings in everything running) log out and back in.  > > 4 > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h>! > > ----------------------------- 7 > >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --t > www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal% > opinion ---------------------------s1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering  hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:12:05 -0800u! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>y' Subject: RE: Changing DECwindows colors 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICELKCDAA.tom@kednos.com>   D Already checked that, and DECW$TERMINAL-DEFAULT.DAT does not change.C Funny thing is I can change the screen background, changing windowsi background worksH for emacs but not for a new window.  Hitting Save Session Manger doesn't save these new settings & so that lgging in and out doesn't help   Tome     > -----Original Message-----9 > From: William Hymen [mailto:t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com] ' > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 5:51 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com>) > Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorst >m >o1 > I always look at the date of the dec*.dat filesw0 > this will indicate if the save session worked.) > $dir/date=mod/since=today sys$login:*.*2, > I also notced that the save-session exists" > in the decterm window menu also. > Bill >n0 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message5 > news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELHCDAA.tom@kednos.com...p< > > It is DECterm on Alpha 6.2.  It looks the same as was on > Ultrix.  Not surez > > tell what version it is,J > > but I do note that I have a license for DW-MOTIF, which may or may not > meanK > > anything.  Anyway based on your response I guess I would have to select  > Dec % > > sindows-Motif -- final answer.  IE > >oL > > The Options I was referring to was the pull down on the Session Manager,! > > which has a number of entriestI > > such as window colors, Save Session manager and so on.  So I hit SavevK > > Session Manger after making the changes, logged out and back in.  Nada.; > > same as before.; > >4  > > > -----Original Message-----? > > > From: Hoff Hoffman [mailto:hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam]e+ > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 4:02 PMi > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com:- > > > Subject: Re: Changing DECwindows colorsa > > >s > > >tC > > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELFCDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Toml% > > > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:  > > > :Am running 6.2 ...6 > > >2C > > >   OpenVMS VAX or OpenVMS Alpha V6.2?  (If it were a VAX, that3 > would tell3 > > >   me I don't need to discuss DECwindows CDE.)C > > >"F > > >   Which version of DECwindows is in use?  (If a sufficiently old
 > version,B > > >   that too would tell me that I can assume DECwindows Motif,
 > unless this 2 > > >   is the very old DECwindows XUI interface.) > > >aI > > > :and when I try to changie the colors from the options pull down...> > > >:# > > >   Um, which options pulldown?A > > >IJ > > > :...it seems to work, but says that it will only take effect withnew > apps.fL > > > :So launching emacs verifies that it does, but a new decwindow doesn't > > > :change. > > > H > > >   A "new DECwindow"?  Do you mean new DECterm?  If so, the DECtermK > > >   controller process itself has already logged in long ago, and wouldaG > > >   need to be restarted.  Most X Windows utilities also have color B > > >   capabilities via entries in the DECwindows resource files. > > >CE > > > :I close the session log back in and nothing has changed.  This  > shouldn't  > > > :be so difficult.  > > > :  > > > :What is the trick?  > > >-I > > >   If DECwindows CDE, you must log all the way out and back in, this27 > > >   to save the settings and to restart everything.r > > >eI > > >   If DECwindows Motif, you must save the settings via the menu, andbK > > >   (to change the settings in everything running) log out and back in.e > > >s6 > > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h># > > > -----------------------------a9 > > >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --e > > www.openvms.compaq.com. > >  --------------------------- pure personal' > > opinion --------------------------- 3 > >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineeringc > hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com > >a >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:52:01 -0800o( From: "calchas" <calchas982@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Datatrieve - DTR 0 Message-ID: <piQt6.1831$_W2.2405@news.indigo.ie>  : "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message# news:3AB70C3F.35C4@ix.netcom.com...  > calchas wrote: > >oF > > Does anyone know of a book (still in print) or an online source of% > > information regarding DataTrieve.c > >w > > Thanks in advanceH > > Calchasb > = > Of the three or four books about DATATRIEVE, all are out ofb= > print.  There was some online documentation about two yearsu= > ago, but the Digital/Compaq lawyers put an end to that.  Asi2 > Hoff noted, the documentation is hardcopy or CD. >X7 > There are some articles and references of interest at  > 7 >    http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/8958/a >  > Joe H. Gallagher, Ph. D.& > Former SIG Chair & Newsletter Editor+ > DATATRIEVE/4GL SIG of DECUS\\\\\Encompasso! > dtrwiz at ix dot netcom dot comV$ > See "The DATATRIEVE Programmer" at4 > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/8958/  G Thanks both. This will give a place to try from, our COMPAQ was no reali/ help, hopefully we can get somewhere from here.s   again many thanksU   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:23:27 +0000/ From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>l: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !) Message-ID: <3AB7920F.F405FE74@Omond.net>a   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  - [... huge snip of the usual boring stuff ...]v  G > ??  What technical examples??  Name some specific "missing services",pD > "missing concepts" and uncomplied with "standards".  But remember,F > not implementing DECNET is not a Unix idea.  It is a proprietary DECD > protocol and even without any assitance from the only one with the+ > actual definition it is still being done.   > You hit one of my pet peeves, and my peeves didn't like it :-)  > DECnet is not and never has been a "proprietary DEC protocol".? It is the very definition of the complete opposite.  The DECnetR? protocol definitions have *always* been free for anyone to make9B whatever use of them they desired.  There were several third-partyB implementations of DECnet on other platforms (I recall at least on Sun and Macintosh).e  ( Shame on you for spreading yet-more-FUD.  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:50:22 +0000w% From: "Matt London" <news@knm.yi.org>u Subject: DocSet Wanted< Message-ID: <20010320.215022.296864819.19226@coffeepot.matt>   Hi,aF   I'm looking for a docset for VMS 5.3/5.4 or somesuch (if possible) -F Reading the docs for 7.2 online only goes so far - plus I like to have things in paper form  D   I'm in the Manchester, UK area, and would be happy to collect fromC somone who's a reasonable distatnce away, or arrange for a courier.o  H   I don't know if anyone'll be able to help or not - but I have a coupleH of MicroVAXen here (3100 and 3300), with 5.4 and 5.3 respectivly - and IG don't have any docs other than a few upgrades that've been made and thew
 license PAKs.e  E I'm relativly new to VAXen - picked up the 3100 in december - and I'd H like to learn VMS (they'll both run netbsd, which I'm at home with - but. I just feel they should run VMS - being vaxen)  , Anyway - I'm going to stop driveling now :&)   --Matt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:35:14 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: DocSet Wanted' Message-ID: <3AB82172.C11A7758@fsi.net>l   Matt London wrote: >  > Hi,lH >   I'm looking for a docset for VMS 5.3/5.4 or somesuch (if possible) -H > Reading the docs for 7.2 online only goes so far - plus I like to have > things in paper form > F >   I'm in the Manchester, UK area, and would be happy to collect fromE > somone who's a reasonable distatnce away, or arrange for a courier.l > J >   I don't know if anyone'll be able to help or not - but I have a coupleJ > of MicroVAXen here (3100 and 3300), with 5.4 and 5.3 respectivly - and II > don't have any docs other than a few upgrades that've been made and thes > license PAKs.i > G > I'm relativly new to VAXen - picked up the 3100 in december - and I'deJ > like to learn VMS (they'll both run netbsd, which I'm at home with - but0 > I just feel they should run VMS - being vaxen)   Try the links at:   / http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/document.htmla  G You may need to click them more than once. The server tends to swap out-E the relevant processes (I guess), so the first name inquiry fails andr the next succeeds.  F I'll probably check with Mark Levy to see how he's doing on disk spaceF on the server - I can probably copy them to the djesys.com directories and change the links.m  E These are mostly V6.1 and V6.2 doc.'s d/l'ed (as PostScript) from the & old ASAP site and distilled to .PDFs.    -- w David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:35:27 +0100 . From: Roger@natron.demon.co.uk (Roger Barnett)0 Subject: Re: Drop C/C++ better sooner than later- Message-ID: <684348839wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>l  R In article: <B6D28AE1.13154%Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au>  Mark Garrett 0 <Mark.Garrett@wedontwantyourspam.com.au> writes: > E > Since this thread has drifted off topic, I'll keep with that trend.aM >     Of all the languages that VMS had available the one I never ever got totL > see  (except in help) was CORAL-66. What is this language and does it have  > any compilers available today?    I Coral-66 was the official UK Defence language in the late 60s and 1970s.  M Compilers were available on a range of mini-computers (remember the Ferranti nI Argus ?) as were cross-development products to SBCs for embedded targets.-  J The main supplier of Coral products was a company called Systems DesignersO which went through various transformations until it became EDS UK around 1990. -H DEC and SD both provided compilers for PDP/RSX, but by the time VMS cameN out DEC basically left the field to SD - in the late 1980s SD and DEC jointly N developed XD Ada, and the same part of SD later took on DecSet support (after  the EDS takeover).  O The best thing that I can say about Coral as a language is that it was so good oL that ICI (the chemical company as was) decided to design & develop their ownM programming language, RTL/2, rather than use Coral for their refinery controlA	 systems.      O I don't know whether there are any Coral products still available, or from who. : For RTL/2, on the other hand, I may be able to help you...   -- o
 Roger Barnettc" Natron Software Ltd, York, England   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 02:22:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalProgran- Message-ID: <87bsqw47wu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  - Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:X  D > > MSDOS did _NOT_ have a monopoly at the beginning either.  CPM-86D > > was a viable alternative, and was readily available (though more> > > expensive).  It only wasn't as popular because of bundling' > > agreements, which is shady at best.r  B > CP/M-86 was (IS!) a much better system.  History repeats itself.E > Perhaps that's the stance we should take -- we're all very close toyF > the VMS problems, but we can learn from what DR did wrong with CP/M,0 > what Commodore did wrong with Amiga, etc, etc.  E The only thing wrong with CPM or MPM was it did not have I*B*M acrosstE it. From about 6 months before the release of the 'IBM Micro' on, thesD sales of S-100 and other micros dropped like a rock. Even people whoE considered the PC a pile of junk went the IBM way. And because it had F the kiss of godness ( that's not a spelling error ) on the front, evenD the priests of the temples of blue blessed it, unlike their reaction# to the 'toys' that outperformed it.a  B IBM DOS ans MS DOS started with a mind share and market clout thatF near no one even attempted to beat. Neither did anyone consider DOS to> be anything other than a huge step into the 60s in capability.   -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.v@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 12:16:31 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)uY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograV, Message-ID: <wOiCr1MJQPum@malvm1.mala.bc.ca>  . In article <87bsqw47wu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, 1    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:p  C >> CP/M-86 was (IS!) a much better system.  History repeats itself.-F >> Perhaps that's the stance we should take -- we're all very close toG >> the VMS problems, but we can learn from what DR did wrong with CP/M, 1 >> what Commodore did wrong with Amiga, etc, etc.. > G > The only thing wrong with CPM or MPM was it did not have I*B*M acrossi > it.a  =     If the commonly reported story is true, IBM wanted to usel> CP/M-86 for the PC, but DR wouldn't talk to them. So they went? to Gates, who didn't even own the rights to DOS at the time. He > reportedly put them off for a day or two, made a quick deal to6 bag the rights to DOS and then made the deal with IBM.  <   (all of the above from a PBS series from a few years ago).   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 16:57:12 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)vY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalProgra 3 Message-ID: <wFwzVL1RVj1$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <997mrs$l5e$2@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:B >> This *is* a UNIX issue exactly because you could even give such6 >> an answer. You should had never thought about that! > L > No.  It is an HP-UX issue.  If the poster had asked about unix in general N > instead of HP-UX specifically, then, yes, it would have been a Unix questionK > (or, more specifically, an lpd question).  But he asked about HP-UX whichN& > uses its own printing system, HPDPS. >   D You do miss the point.  UNIX was sold to the masses as all being the same.r  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences CorporationD= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouphE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 00:08:50 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)oY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalPrograt, Message-ID: <998rei$2091$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <wFwzVL1RVj1$@eisner.encompasserve.org>,w0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: |> C |> wG |> You do miss the point.  UNIX was sold to the masses as all being thes |> same.  ? When was unix ever sold to the masses??  And who ever said theyd> were all the same??  The (massive) differences between BSD and? SYSV were obvious from the beginning.  Today, except where somee? companies choose to keep it proprietary, there is less and less'= difference and abstraction is doing a very good job of hiding A even these differences.  Most well packaged programs can be builti? on just about anything by starting with the "configure" command ! at the root of their source tree.u   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   O   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 12:28:08 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS      EducationalProgra - Message-ID: <87itl3eofb.fsf@prep.synonet.com>u  3 nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) writes:e  0 > In article <87bsqw47wu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, 3 >    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:s > E > >> CP/M-86 was (IS!) a much better system.  History repeats itself.gH > >> Perhaps that's the stance we should take -- we're all very close toI > >> the VMS problems, but we can learn from what DR did wrong with CP/M, 3 > >> what Commodore did wrong with Amiga, etc, etc.i > > I > > The only thing wrong with CPM or MPM was it did not have I*B*M acrossl > > it.  > ? >     If the commonly reported story is true, IBM wanted to use @ > CP/M-86 for the PC, but DR wouldn't talk to them. So they wentA > to Gates, who didn't even own the rights to DOS at the time. Hea@ > reportedly put them off for a day or two, made a quick deal to8 > bag the rights to DOS and then made the deal with IBM.  A Matter of record. Billyboy sold it too IBM two days before he had 	 anything.L   -- << Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.2@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:59:51 -0500 7 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramt2 Message-ID: <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>  A On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)  wrote:   <BIG, BIG, SNIP>   >e0 >Fair enough...besides, I enjoy a challenge :)   > J >Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure on8 >vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over? >o >Brian  $ You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*.  E Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done innD a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines,B probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is theE key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks overp
 the years.  > ODS-5 makes it a little more challenging, because the possible= directory depth exceeds the maximum command level depth.  Thei= command procedure would become iterative with some additionalh? code to simulate a stack for keeping track of where you are at.s   David R. Beattyt   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 20:56:38 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramk3 Message-ID: <998g66$of9$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>p  2 In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>,: 	David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:C > On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)  > wrote: >  > <BIG, BIG, SNIP> >  >>1 >>Fair enough...besides, I enjoy a challenge :)  e >>K >>Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure one9 >>vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?c >> >>Briani > & > You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*.   Yep, I did.    > G > Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done in F > a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines,D > probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is theG > key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks over  > the years. > @ > ODS-5 makes it a little more challenging, because the possible? > directory depth exceeds the maximum command level depth.  The-? > command procedure would become iterative with some additionaltA > code to simulate a stack for keeping track of where you are at.- >  > David R. Beattyn >   E I may see if I can hunt one up.  I just wanted to make sure I wasn't   missing something obvious!   Briana   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 21:54:36 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)lY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgram., Message-ID: <998jis$1sss$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3AB62A8A.4233172D@Mvb.Saic.Com>,3  Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:y |> Brian Wheeler wrote:  |> > . |> > . |> > .R |> > Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not. |> a
 |> Case 1: |> tH |> I just received a report on one of my VMS systems of an unrecoverableH |> error on a disk block.  Information from the report gave me the driveJ |> and block number in question, the application that generated the error,# |> and the file with the bad block.e |>  K |> A short time ago I discovered in the syslog of a Solaris system a reportiC |> of 3 bad blocks.  Device and block numbers were given.  NO otherlF |> information available.  Contacted Sun support, it turns out SolarisK |> provides no mechanism for telling which file is using a given block, noroI |> is it capable of being configured to tell me which application or file  |> triggers a bad block report.a |> eG |> How do I find out which file(s) have bad data in them so they can be-
 |> corrected?-  A Never had to do it, but I am pretty sure ther eis a way to do it.nE I would expect that most administrators don't learn how to do obscuretC tasks till the time comes when they actually have to, regardless of  the OS.    |> g
 |> Case 2: |> aH |> An application, as part of its normal operations has put about 10,000J |> files in a small directory tree.  I now need to clean out about half ofH |> them.  All permutations using wildcards fail (the string generated by1 |> the shell is too long and the command aborts).i |>   |> How do I remove these files?u  A Insufficient data provided.  How about giveing me the command yousC would use on VMS.  You claim that "All permutations using wildcardsnB fail".  If you can't use wildcards in VMS, how do you specify themC without explicitly listing all the files, which unix can do just as  well.r  > Provide an accurate description of a real-world case and I can probably answer this one.n   |>  
 |> Case 3: |> rI |> A Solaris system I administer started giving very poor performance.  IsE |> tracked it down to one user whose program was taking all available-
 |> memory.  F Big deal.  I saw this on a Univac Mainframe 20 years ago.  The correctG answer is to smack the programmer inthe head and tell him to stop being8G stupid, but you probably want a technical solution rather than a social5 one.   |> hH |> How did I find this out (or, perhaps a better question, how would you |> find this out)?  C One of the first things I do when I detect a performance problem isyD run "top".  Now, before you say this isn't "standard" unix (whateverB that is) "top is just a program that formats kernel data in a moreE user friendly way.  All the same information is available from commonaE utilities.  It would immediately show who the hog is and what programe he was running.d   |> h! |> What can I do to prevent this?   : Pretty much the same way you would on VMS. Process Limits.   |> r
 |> Case 4: |> tH |> One user has an application he is working on that needs to be able to |> open a privileged TCP port. |> gJ |> How do I give him the ability to do so without giving him access to the |> entire system?1  E Again, too vague to answer.  While developing I would guess you stickjB him on a development machine where he can't do any harm.  Once theA application is ready for production, it is easy to start a singleSF process with the priveledges necessary to do this. (Hint: news servers& do it all the time to access port 119)  D But, considering that there is no TCPIP stack that is a part of VMS,0 it seems that this is impossible under VMS.  :-)   |> i2 |> These are simple cases, which I hit regularly.   D And like most examples of this sort, they are inadequately describedC to actually determine the proper solution.  Defining the problem isd" the first step in problem solving.  fI |>                                                I do not, in any sense,lD |> imply that they are unsolvable on Unix.  I'm simply looking for aE |> demonstration of how they are as easy to solve as they are on VMS.u  E Considering that for a VMS outsider, like myself, they are impossible/D to solve, you have merely strengthened my argument that it sin't theC makeup of the OS that determines the ease of tasks, it is the levels of familiarity with it.t  C Different isn't better or worse.  Different isn't easier or harder.h Different is just different.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 22:10:28 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)oY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramt, Message-ID: <998kgk$1sss$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <87u24o4arv.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,a/  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:o |>I |> I have said it before, and I will say it again. Unix is still possibleoH |> the system for developing how to solve a problem, or finding out if a? |> usefull sollution is possible or practicle. It is a very badDG |> environment to develop a solid code base that can be ported to otherG |> platforms.   C Are you saying it is trivial to port from VMS to any other system??aC Surely you jest!!  What other system in the world has LIB$FIND_FILEw or LIB$DAY or LIB$GETSYI??  E It doesn't matter which system your on.  Either you use a minimal seteG of common calls or you write non-portable programs.  One decides wether C or not they are interested in performance, elegance or portability.f% You can't have all three in any case..  D Some programmers go to a lot of effort isolating these machine or OSB dependancies.  Some do not.  It all depends on the target goals ofD the program.  Considering how few people have actually heard of VMS,B much less actually used it, is it any surprise that portability to. VMS is so low on the table of considerations??   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 17:01:49 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalPrograme3 Message-ID: <rdVbgh6N9lYe@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  l In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:C > On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)a > wrote: >  > <BIG, BIG, SNIP> >  >>1 >>Fair enough...besides, I enjoy a challenge :)  i >>K >>Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure onR9 >>vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?. >>  $ 1) set prot [top...]*.*;*/owner=rewdD 2) delete [top...]*.*;*,;,;,;,;,;,;,;	! may need more depth on ODS-5 3) set prot top.dir. 4) delete top.dir;  . Was it really that bad?  I do it all the time.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyings   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 22:31:32 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)gY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalPrograme, Message-ID: <998lo4$1sss$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <9987av$n5a$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,e-  bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:  |> a |> > Case 2: |> >  J |> > An application, as part of its normal operations has put about 10,000L |> > files in a small directory tree.  I now need to clean out about half ofJ |> > them.  All permutations using wildcards fail (the string generated by3 |> > the shell is too long and the command aborts).e |> > t! |> > How do I remove these files?a |> nN |> Using bash (though I'm other shells have very similar functionality), I did
 |> a test: |>   |> $ ls | wc -ln7 |>   10002              <-- # of files in the directorym	 |> $ ls * ( |> bash: /bin/ls: Argument list too long |> $ for n in *; do rm $n; doner |> $ ls | wc -la
 |>       0  E I read this as a case where he did not want to just delete everything B in the directory.  If that were the case, it is trivial to do in a shell independant manner.m
  $ ls | wc -lO5    10002              <-- # of files in the directoryu   $ find . -type f -exec rm {} \;
  $ ls | wc -lf    0  D One of the strengths of the software tools concept (on which much ofG unix is based) is that there is usually more than one way to accomplishr2 a task and a well stocked toolbox is a good thing.   bill   -- >J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 00:01:30 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)eY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalPrograma, Message-ID: <998r0q$2091$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>,:  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:D |> On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)	 |> wrote:b |> lM |> >Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure ond; |> >vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?r |> >	 |> >Briant |> <' |> You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*.d |> eH |> Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done inG |> a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines,tE |> probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is the H |> key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks over
 |> the years.U  G And a 50-100 line "small (recursive) command procedure" is simpler thanu  2      "find . -type f -exec rm -f {} \; ; rm -rf *"  
 in what way??s   bill   -- NJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 22:05:34 -0500/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramc* Message-ID: <9995pu$p39$1@lisa.gemair.com>  H I generally agree that VMS is easier to administer than the Unix systemsG with which I'm familiar.  But, I have a few suggestions for cases 2 andl@ 3.  Maybe I'm not understanding your problems correctly, though.  , In article <3AB62A8A.4233172D@Mvb.Saic.Com>,2 Mark Berryman  <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> wrote: >Brian Wheeler wrote:o >> . >> . >> .P >> Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not. >m >Case 1: >gF >I just received a report on one of my VMS systems of an unrecoverableF >error on a disk block.  Information from the report gave me the driveH >and block number in question, the application that generated the error,! >and the file with the bad block.  >rI >A short time ago I discovered in the syslog of a Solaris system a reportiA >of 3 bad blocks.  Device and block numbers were given.  NO othereD >information available.  Contacted Sun support, it turns out SolarisI >provides no mechanism for telling which file is using a given block, nor G >is it capable of being configured to tell me which application or file  >triggers a bad block report.8 > E >How do I find out which file(s) have bad data in them so they can be  >corrected?  >m  
 This is ugly.e   >Case 2: >tF >An application, as part of its normal operations has put about 10,000H >files in a small directory tree.  I now need to clean out about half ofF >them.  All permutations using wildcards fail (the string generated by/ >the shell is too long and the command aborts).s >. >How do I remove these files?> >r  : Check out xargs.  This will handle this kind of situation.   >Case 3: >SG >A Solaris system I administer started giving very poor performance.  I C >tracked it down to one user whose program was taking all availablew >memory. > F >How did I find this out (or, perhaps a better question, how would you >find this out)? >i >What can I do to prevent this?M >    ulimit?   F Doesn't ps give you the information you need to identify the processesE that are hogging memory?  I know that the 'top' utility, which I finda( on most Unix systems can be useful here.   >Case 4: >nF >One user has an application he is working on that needs to be able to >open a privileged TCP port. >tH >How do I give him the ability to do so without giving him access to the >entire system?- >1  C Hmmm... That's a good one.  I don't know of an easy way to do this.   E Generally, I would give such a user a development system where he can D have root privs to develop his application and then make it a setuidE program on a production system, but this is not entirely satisfactory  for a number of reasons.  H >These are simple cases, which I hit regularly.  I do not, in any sense,B >imply that they are unsolvable on Unix.  I'm simply looking for aC >demonstration of how they are as easy to solve as they are on VMS.> >  >Mark Berryman >Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Comg   -Jordan Hendersonu jordan@greenapple.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:08:41 -0500E2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgrameL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2103010008410001@user-2ive6pq.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <998g66$of9$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) wrote:  4 > In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>,C >         David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes: E > > On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)  >lM > >>Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure ont; > >>vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?- > >>	 > >>Brian- > > ( > > You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*. > 
 > Yep, I did.a >  > > I > > Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done inuH > > a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines,F > > probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is theI > > key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks overe > > the years. > > B > > ODS-5 makes it a little more challenging, because the possibleA > > directory depth exceeds the maximum command level depth.  TheeA > > command procedure would become iterative with some additionalaC > > code to simulate a stack for keeping track of where you are at.r > >  > > David R. Beatty; > >  > G > I may see if I can hunt one up.  I just wanted to make sure I wasn't c > missing something obvious!  E Is a script allowed?  Put the delete command in a loop, exit when thee9 status says nothing was deleted.  Invoke the script once.   D DFU will probably do it in one line.  I really should look into that utility RSN.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:33:20 -0500-  From: Ben Sego <bsego@clark.net>Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro ) Message-ID: <3AB7CCA0.E3D34D38@clark.net>a   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  / > In article <87bsqw47wu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,o3 >    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:- >-E > >> CP/M-86 was (IS!) a much better system.  History repeats itself.BH > >> Perhaps that's the stance we should take -- we're all very close toI > >> the VMS problems, but we can learn from what DR did wrong with CP/M,.3 > >> what Commodore did wrong with Amiga, etc, etc.  > > I > > The only thing wrong with CPM or MPM was it did not have I*B*M across> > > it.> > ? >     If the commonly reported story is true, IBM wanted to usen@ > CP/M-86 for the PC, but DR wouldn't talk to them. So they wentA > to Gates, who didn't even own the rights to DOS at the time. Heo@ > reportedly put them off for a day or two, made a quick deal to8 > bag the rights to DOS and then made the deal with IBM. > > >   (all of the above from a PBS series from a few years ago).  K You forgot the part where it all happened because his mother served on someaC charity board with an IBM exec; she got the initial meeting set up.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:35:19 +0000o) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>aY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Prol, Message-ID: <3AB7F747.EF6DA4C0@infopuls.com>   Brian Wheeler wrote: > . > In article <3AB62A8A.4233172D@mvb.saic.com>,< >         Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: > > Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> . > >> . > >> .R > >> Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not. > >v > > Case 1:e > > I > > I just received a report on one of my VMS systems of an unrecoverablemI > > error on a disk block.  Information from the report gave me the drivenK > > and block number in question, the application that generated the error,s$ > > and the file with the bad block. > >lL > > A short time ago I discovered in the syslog of a Solaris system a reportD > > of 3 bad blocks.  Device and block numbers were given.  NO otherG > > information available.  Contacted Sun support, it turns out SolarisaL > > provides no mechanism for telling which file is using a given block, norJ > > is it capable of being configured to tell me which application or file  > > triggers a bad block report. > > H > > How do I find out which file(s) have bad data in them so they can be > > corrected? > >i > K > Under linux (using ext2) its possible (and quite easy) using debugfs, andw- > assuming the bad block in question is 5323:r >  > # debugfs /dev/hda1 6 > debugfs 1.18, 11-Nov-1999 for EXT2 FS 0.5b, 95/08/09 > debugfs:  icheck 5323e > Block   Inode number > 5323    30 > debugfs:  ncheck 30b > Inode   Pathname > 30      /vmlinux-2.2.17-14
 > debugfs: > H > So its not a Unix issue, per se, but a Solaris specific issue.  Though> > there's no technical reason why it can't be done on Solaris.  1 Which application triggered the bad block report?   
 [BIG SNIP]  K > Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure onr9 > vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?a >  > Briana  8 I don't know of any simple command. But I have a command= procedure (a few lines DCL) which does this automatically but < since I have DFU I've never used it anymore. Honestly it's a= little bit strange but on VMS I don't do this often, on Linuxe much more often.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:38:08 +0000.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProW, Message-ID: <3AB7F7F0.DFC7B6D2@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:   [SNIP]  G > I read this as a case where he did not want to just delete everything D > in the directory.  If that were the case, it is trivial to do in a > shell independant manner.l >  $ ls | wc -le7 >    10002              <-- # of files in the directoryt" >  $ find . -type f -exec rm {} \; >  $ ls | wc -lo >    0 > F > One of the strengths of the software tools concept (on which much ofI > unix is based) is that there is usually more than one way to accomplisha4 > a task and a well stocked toolbox is a good thing. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  : But why the hell isn't it possible to simply pipe the find result into rm?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:48:32 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>tY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro', Message-ID: <3AB7FA60.91E16F48@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3AB62A8A.4233172D@Mvb.Saic.Com>,5 >  Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:  > |> Brian Wheeler wrote:d > |> > . > |> > . > |> > .T > |> > Unix is as easy to administer.  You have not shown any cases where it is not. > |> > |> Case 1: > |>J > |> I just received a report on one of my VMS systems of an unrecoverableJ > |> error on a disk block.  Information from the report gave me the driveL > |> and block number in question, the application that generated the error,% > |> and the file with the bad block.  > |>M > |> A short time ago I discovered in the syslog of a Solaris system a report E > |> of 3 bad blocks.  Device and block numbers were given.  NO othergH > |> information available.  Contacted Sun support, it turns out SolarisM > |> provides no mechanism for telling which file is using a given block, norsK > |> is it capable of being configured to tell me which application or filel! > |> triggers a bad block report.e > |>I > |> How do I find out which file(s) have bad data in them so they can beB > |> corrected?I > C > Never had to do it, but I am pretty sure there is a way to do it.eG > I would expect that most administrators don't learn how to do obscureeE > tasks till the time comes when they actually have to, regardless off	 > the OS.   = This isn't the point: how easy is it to find out and to learnf= it? We all know that UNIX seems at least to work, so there is - pretty obviously to administer UNIX machines.g   > |> > |> Case 2: > |>J > |> An application, as part of its normal operations has put about 10,000L > |> files in a small directory tree.  I now need to clean out about half ofJ > |> them.  All permutations using wildcards fail (the string generated by3 > |> the shell is too long and the command aborts).o > |>! > |> How do I remove these files?  > C > Insufficient data provided.  How about giveing me the command you.E > would use on VMS.  You claim that "All permutations using wildcards-D > fail".  If you can't use wildcards in VMS, how do you specify themE > without explicitly listing all the files, which unix can do just asa > well.g  : It seems that you didn't even understand the problem. "All@ permutations using wildcards fail" means that these combinations: delivered to much filenames and let overflow the parameter@ passing mechanism of the shell. With VMS you would only need one< wildcard pattern which matches all the files that were to be deleted.  @ > Provide an accurate description of a real-world case and I can > probably answer this one.i   Seems that this was one.   > |> > |> Case 3: > |>K > |> A Solaris system I administer started giving very poor performance.  IdG > |> tracked it down to one user whose program was taking all availabler > |> memory. > H > Big deal.  I saw this on a Univac Mainframe 20 years ago.  The correctJ > answer is to smack the programmer in the head and tell him to stop beingI > stupid, but you probably want a technical solution rather than a social  > one. >  > |>J > |> How did I find this out (or, perhaps a better question, how would you > |> find this out)? > E > One of the first things I do when I detect a performance problem is F > run "top".  Now, before you say this isn't "standard" unix (whateverD > that is) "top is just a program that formats kernel data in a moreG > user friendly way.  All the same information is available from common G > utilities.  It would immediately show who the hog is and what program, > he was running.m  8 To gather this info from the proc filesystem which isn't3 standard also is much more complicated than on VMS.    [SNIP]   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 19:22:54 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!6 Message-ID: <20010320192254.10387.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  I On 20 Mar 2001, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> was kind enough ton respond seriously to:a8 >Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writing:  E >> * Capable of running a small general-purpose website for the small 5 >> business with a Cable or xDSL Internet connection.t >n* >WASD, Apache, OSU, Netscape Purvoyor(?).     Yup, personal favourite is WASD.  D >> * Ready to handle staff and business email (say, not more than 15
 >> accounts).h >oC >Most of it is out of the box ( given TCP/IP with an SMTP mailer )..8 >Adding All-in-fun for those whose tastses run that way.  I I know, sad isn't it - all out the box, but only affordable to hobbyists.sJ Any hobbyist starting up in business would have to go to UN*X to run their	 business.T   >> (b) Business Ready. >. >What does this mean?    Ready to sucker 'em ;)  M >Ah, licences... I would like to see: VMS, all go to unlimited, just like the8? >original, and include full DECnet, IP, X, and full clustering.U   Again, I agree wholeheartedly.  C <snip, on second thoughts no - sorry folks it all needs emphasised>G  8 >> * Built-in patch retrieval and installation software. >>
 >It is there.y >s: >> * Simple (e.g. Pathworks v5) file serving capabilities. > G >Good idea. Not everyone needs the full fruit of PW. Means you are into>' >tracking the bogware changes though...* > ( >> * Automated backup software included. >sH >Hum, this is a problem. I consider 8mm or DLT a minium. DAT is just notJ >a real media for backup, though DDS3 or DDS4 may be better or good enough6 >from what I hear. But I'm somewhat anal about this ;)  H DAT would be good enough for most startup (or just expanding) businessesD though. They could even include a set of 5 tapes with the manual and* instructions on how to run a backup cycle.    < >> * Low-cost basic training in simple administrative tasks. >m4 >Have to have them available. See the edu threads... >t >> (c) Developer Ready.  >> g >> * Give away (gasp!) DECC. >yD >Well, it is the best of the worst... Just be sure to include BLISS,G >Pascal, Fortran, and ( shock horror ) Cobol. And perhaps as a low cost0 >option, DTR, Forms et al. >e? >> * Perl and other web-friendly tools bundled with the system.U > > >What is a 'web friendly' tool? One that only works sometimes?   LOL!  K Actually, I class Perl as "web friendly" because it is so widely known, andaH there are so many scripts available. From (limited) experience it can be fairly reliable too.  E >> * Simple ring-bound manual(s) covering care, maintenance, and goodc5 >>   security policies (Just like the good old days).a >BC >A new user manual is needed for this. As are some well thought out.< >install followup procedures to get the systems on the road.  G Precisely, and I can imagine VMS Engineering are the perfect people two H write that set of books. I'm sure they could come up with some power-ful
 stuff. <g>    C >> Given the above system, I think any aspiring e-businessman would E >> jump at the chance to run the same OS as his favourite Wall Streett
 >> Casino. >vD >The bigest problem the e-bustnessman faces is small capital, and atB >best a tight cash flow. Finding several $K, up front can drop youH >right out of the deal. You have to be in the lease/rental/pay-as-you-goH >to get going. HP and IBM know this well. In fact it is near pure IBM of >old.g  K Agreed. However, I'm trying to being radical enough to suggest there *is* a J new market. One like that which someone visionary in IBM spotted when theyI released the PC. This new system might be a little pricey bought new, but I with the failure rate of new businesses they'd soon be circulating in theeE second-hand market for a little less. Not to mention that if annuallygJ renewed licenses were issued "The Q" would get their money there too. (Not too pricey on renewal please!)    L >> Now, once you've built this lovely imaginary system, give the first 1,000G >> away to major edjuyacashunal e-stablishments. (Don't forget the fulloN >> licenses *and* software kits this time!) That should help to get the peopleK >> who're going to run these systems trained. Plus it will aid in getting ao0 >> whole new batch of affordable apps developed. >oI >Ah, these 'imaginary' systems have been around near forever... It is theo >price that kills them.   G Again, you're spot on. However, it has always been bits and pieces of anH whole. Since "The Q" might be listening I felt putting the whole package together would be a good idea.   <snip>  = >To get this going, you need two types of app. First, generaleG >accounting and that cruft. Alas, every place has their own set of lawsm' >about this. One size will NOT fit all.o  H I actually assume this is more likely to be the second system a businessH buys. First system would be for the accountancy (presumably PC - running< whatever). That should *never* be connected to the Internet.  B >Second are the fair number of area specific apps to deal with theE >specific business. With out these, you have the bottle with no beer.,  6 Lucky it wasn't the other way round - that's messy. ;)    G >Oh, and I think you HAVE to have a transition path FROM bills bogware.S$ >Go see what Sun are up to for that.  # Actually, I'd rather ask Andrew. ;)o     Thanks again Paul.       Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----2 Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOraPcsriC3SGiziTAQGzgwf/XQLeYIQAdfvZW2dYSgrAdzV7aaGb65wZ@ Bp0bzUY8tZoy/eWdDMHL+zMyJ3W5c20q15B0hFb1h9aVC5eCVYIHc42UNWnaMRTO@ vVN4x3YBPbfEbQAuznP72j6vLo4xk8g6AGkY//zVyK9EwtYf8+O+qozMqFa+Fike@ Iidd6njIdI/bCXG9l/bysqRiLDnnrlCauaIU27F07vQ0wDhKRXrMBUxPXyoaig4R@ a9GWaEipiKJ3inkPj/YM90V4E9HmW1gifupN7QJrLv5ZHS8G0QOJCpJ8r8axIWC18 /zTrwR9qsuoD3ecNXvcMJN7/PBy8VWXuKlMngNaNCOMF05MC75HR5A== =i/CC  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:35:15 +0100n2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)$ Subject: Re: Free The OpenVMS Seven!; Message-ID: <3ab7bf03.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>.  - Paul Repacholi (prep@prep.synonet.com) wrote: 8 > Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:F > > * Capable of running a small general-purpose website for the small6 > > business with a Cable or xDSL Internet connection. >u+ > WASD, Apache, OSU, Netscape Purvoyor(?). e  ) Netscape's webserver is called FastTrack. 8 Purveyor is a product of Process Software, but it's EOL.  @ > > * Perl and other web-friendly tools bundled with the system. >t? > What is a 'web friendly' tool? One that only works sometimes?x  G Actually, VMSperl is quite useful. I also use it for system admin taskse& when DCL string handling gets tedious.   cu,t   Martin -- aJ One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:57:44 -0500o2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com> Subject: Good News for VMS8 Message-ID: <0TTt6.80478$lj4.2181922@news6.giganews.com>   I heard on the news today that# the entire German Government dumpedl! NT/2000 for security issues. Lets " hope they buy vms; instead of unix( with 20 security apps laid on top of it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:40:02 -08007! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com  Subject: Re: Good News for VMSD Message-ID: <OF717414AF.BE82A9C5-ON88256A16.000E6A2C@foundation.com>  K Check out the two articles on the subject on www.theregister.co.uk. I thinkeH you've heard a slightly exaggerated version of an article in Der SpiegelK (sp?). The register says the German government deny the exact story, but in < such a way that they may well be thinking along those lines.   Shanea          D William Hymen <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com> on 03/20/2001 05:57:44 PM  < Please respond to William Hymen <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com>   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt cc:    Subject:  Good News for VMSm     I heard on the news today that# the entire German Government dumped ! NT/2000 for security issues. Letsd" hope they buy vms; instead of unix( with 20 security apps laid on top of it.   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 14:31:24 EST1 From: byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer)xC Subject: HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks...-1 Message-ID: <rtuxA0b+xqtD@cartman.ourservers.net>m   Help...B  O I need the pin-outs for the RJ12 serial console cable for a RA7000 StorageWorksR box.   Any help would be appreciated.   --    @  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Robert Alan Byer | byer@mail.ourservers.net | ICQ #65926579 |@  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Send an E-mail request to obtain a copy of my PGP key.      |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+@  | "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by |@  |  cans of cola the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire   |@  |  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine    |@  |  alone I set my mind in motion."                            |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:53:48 GMT + From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> G Subject: Re: HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks...o+ Message-ID: <3AB7D9D0.D481086D@ins-msi.com>n  D IIRC, the RJ12 jack is wired the same as an MMJ. So looking into the socket:     1 - DTR  2 - TX data  3 - TX gnd   4 - RX gndn  5 - RX data  6 - DSR   HTH,  
 Jeff Campbell  n8wxs@arrl.net   Robert Alan Byer wrote:i > 	 > Help...) > Q > I need the pin-outs for the RJ12 serial console cable for a RA7000 StorageWorksn > box. >   > Any help would be appreciated. >  > -- > B >  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+B >  | Robert Alan Byer | byer@mail.ourservers.net | ICQ #65926579 |B >  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+B >  | Send an E-mail request to obtain a copy of my PGP key.      |B >  +-------------------------------------------------------------+B >  | "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by |B >  |  cans of cola the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire   |B >  |  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine    |B >  |  alone I set my mind in motion."                            |B >  +-------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 17:53:26 EST1 From: byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer) G Subject: Re: HELP:  Pin-Outs For RJ12 Console On RA7000 StorageWorks...01 Message-ID: <X$Wj6LkLQmJn@cartman.ourservers.net>o   >cF > IIRC, the RJ12 jack is wired the same as an MMJ. So looking into the	 > socket:P > 
 >  1 - DTR >  2 - TX data
 >  3 - TX gndf
 >  4 - RX gndi >  5 - RX data
 >  6 - DSR >  > HTH, >  > Jeff Campbellr > n8wxs@arrl.net >j   Thank you very much!!! :}t  d -- o  @  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Robert Alan Byer | byer@mail.ourservers.net | ICQ #65926579 |@  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Send an E-mail request to obtain a copy of my PGP key.      |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+@  | "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by |@  |  cans of cola the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire   |@  |  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine    |@  |  alone I set my mind in motion."                            |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:57:17 GMT  From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com 8 Subject: Re: LDAP Client - Anyone Ported to OpenVMS Yet?8 Message-ID: <bfkfbtg9u3dbgc4si7j2s5dnf3suib2udt@4ax.com>  B On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:44:04 -0000, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) wrote:P   >Hello All,>J >It looks like we can't wait for OpenVMS 7.3 to get an LDAP client.  Have A >any of you ported a current *or* older version of it to OpenVMS?k >wsy  B perhaps not the answer you're looking for,  but maybe Perl-LDAP ?  ie. #   http://perl-ldap.sourceforge.net/d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:50:26 -0500:# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: LICENSE PURGE ?* Message-ID: <3AB7C292.A9DC0D7@hsc.vcu.edu>  ! I followed Mr. Robert Deininger'st   kindly given com files, and when I tried to do the license delete/disabled * step, (or however it's spelled), lmf whined about being greater than a 64K command..  I had about oh, 3,000 old licenses clogging up my db.  we simply edited the disable_licenses.com filev+ into a delete_licenses.com, and nuked them.C  s my license db did NOT shrink...  should I copy them over to a new file to reduce the file size, or just leave it.  o  ; many thanks, my console is no longer incessantly beeping...l   j.   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: > K > Since the VMS hobbyist program is there (many thanks for that !!), I havehJ > a bunch of licenses loaded which starts to terminate now. And I start to7 > feel tired of deleting yet another expired license...  > A > Is there a LMF command to delete all expired licenses at once ?m >  > --> > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651= > Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888a> > <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netJ > A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:29:28 GMTf2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: LICENSE PURGE ?1 Message-ID: <YYPt6.179$eE2.9683@news.cpqcorp.net>   P In article <3AB7C292.A9DC0D7@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> writes:K :my license db did NOT shrink...  should I copy them over to a new file to g* :reduce the file size, or just leave it.    K   The RMS indexed file storage allocation does not normally shrink without l   outside assistance.o  H   Having a larger-than-required indexed file containing deleted records H   is not (usually) of any particular consequence.  (Salient exceptions: F   severely oversized files when disk space is correspondingly severelyI   constrained, large numbers of deleted records and other cruft built up h8   within an indexed file when frequently accessed, etc.)  H   You would need to CONVERT/RECLAIM or similar conversion, and not COPY,I   to remove the deleted records and to reorganize the internal structurese   of an RMS indexed file.t  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 17:09:10 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 0 Subject: Re: login failure when sysuaf is locked3 Message-ID: <TPUUXVBqwPkW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   B In article <009F94DF.45B970BD.1@decus.de>, manser@decus.de writes:   > L > I know that during this a lot of batch jobs runs which do multiple submits >  > My question is:s > ; > Is the sysuaf exclusively locked during multiple logins ?l >  > reguards Nazim Manseri >   C The sysuaf is not, but the individual record may be.  If the job ishB doing multiple submits the locking mechanism should simply prevent9 collision (each batch job start wants to update the last c noninteractive login field).  C I had my account "lock up" when a first login hung due to a networkrE error.  I could not log in via that username (hung after the passwordnD prompt, I believe).  After consulting with Compaq support the system1 manager tracked down and killed my first process.d  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationu= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group.E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying2   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:00:25 +0100p, From: Nazim MANSER <Nazim.Manser@socgen.com>0 Subject: Re: login failure when sysuaf is lockedT Message-ID: <01BD03AB82759042*/c=FR/admd=ATLAS/prmd=SG/o=INFI/s=MANSER/g=NAZIM/@MHS>  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:09:34 -0500h+ From: Rob Young <young_r@ENCOMPASSERVE.ORG>a0 Subject: Re: login failure when sysuaf is locked     >>>n     Rob young writes      3 >>No.  Are you sure you are pointing to sysuaf?  IfoM >>        sys$system:sysuaf.dat, is there you should be good to go.  However,sD >>        maybe you are picking up a bad sysaf logical.  Add this to >>        your run:s >>$ >>        $ show logical/full sysuaf >>% >>                                Robi    ! we have a cluster common sysuaf ,W   VAX7> mc sysman   SYSMAN> set env/node=(vax6,vax7)+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment: #         Individual nodes: VAX6,VAX7a<         Username MANSER       will be used on nonlocal nodes  ,& SYSMAN> do show log /all /full sysuaf 0 %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node VAX6@    "SYSUAF" [exec] = "SYS$CLUSTER:SYSUAF.DAT" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)0 %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node VAX7@    "SYSUAF" [exec] = "SYS$CLUSTER:SYSUAF.DAT" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)    * SYSMAN> do show log /full sys$cluster /all0 %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node VAX6D    "SYS$CLUSTER" [exec] = "DSA4:[CLUSTER_COMMON]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)0 %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node VAX7D    "SYS$CLUSTER" [exec] = "DSA4:[CLUSTER_COMMON]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)   Manser.tI *************************************************************************r  D Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sontF confidentiels et etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires.< Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisee est interdite. 8 Tout message electronique est susceptible d'alteration.  La SOCIETE GENERALE et ses filiales declinent toute responsabilite au titre de ce message s'il a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.t   				********  E This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential anda# intended solely for the addressees..5 Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. t) E-mails are susceptible to alteration.   y Neither SOCIETE GENERALE nor any of its subsidiaries or affiliates shall be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. r  I *************************************************************************a   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 17:12:03 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program3 Message-ID: <9YdJ0RSZwmu5@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <3AB7721A.BCDEB31C@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:E   >Not only that but Javap8 > was developed by those UNIX people who in your opinion/ > couldn't develop an API to save their lives. v  @ He's right on that.  Way too much UNIX assumption in Java's fileC handling, even the File class is wrong.  And of course all non-UNIX>9 OS have different (not portable) ways of dealing with it.s  D Most of the OS specific code I've had to write in my Java apps dealsC with vendor supplied variations on mapping real file names to File.s  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationb= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupiE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingP   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:37:05 +0000u) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>r( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AB7DB91.80843ACE@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Brass Christof [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] > 1 > > > It seems that Compaq need to look into thate > > price/performance ratio :)< > > > That's the only thing that I believe has changed much. > C > > As an hobbyist I don't see this except for the HW side. You maypD > > be right but this isn't a technical issue and can't be solved by+ > > technical initiatives like UNIX on VMS.a > N > It's simply one more "piece of the puzzle," so to speak.  I would argue that> > this perhaps even the most important thing for compaq to do.  : I don't argue about that except that I insist this isn't a= technical issue. If this is against VMS and in favour of UNIXo crap - be it so!  K > > > reflects the quality of the brainwashed masses who believe that usingeJ > > > "visual basic" makes you a programmer.  And what can we do about it? > > J > > Congratulations! I fully agree and have had contact to people behavingI > > like complete morons while bragging with their Micro$oft certificateshE > > and unable to install a simple LAN with a Cisco router having twobA > > different types of WAN connections (one leased line, one dial 
 > > up line).oJ > > VB isn't that bad - the problem is that the GUI builder tools only letI > > you do one area of the jobs properly (the GUI part). If more logic isO > > needed you are on your own.  > N > Well, visual basic is bad for a few reasons.  First off, it's limiting whereM > it shouldn't be in boxing you into a gui designer, which, while ok for someNN > things, doesn't have the flexibility that may be needed.  Next it allows youL > to be liberal where it shouldn't, in syntax. :)  ... and finally, the onlyK > target it will build for is windows, which is its worst quality.  This iseM > ignoring the fact that it's owned by microsoft who might get bored of it at3M > any time and change or pull the plug on it completely. (I'm not saying thisB3 > will happen, but I like "standardized" languages)S  = Technically I think the syntax is far better than C/C++, PERL 9 and UNIX shell crap. I didn't know about the syntax to bea? liberal. I have the background of strong typed PLs and I surelyD@ never went to the limit of VB syntax. But let's drop the case. I= didn't like it very much but I didn't find it crap. I used itd@ only for a Web project and didn't know even that it would run on2 Windows (only). It surely isn't the silver bullet.  P > > > and not profitable. :/  Do you really believe that most people running VMSH > > > would run bad software on it?  You'd just have to be more careful. > G > > Agreed. But it seems that your own analysis to which I fully agreed F > > leads to the consequences that I mentioned. Given the low ratio ofG > > good SW and the problems of writing VMS/UNIX SW which will be stilltE > > there the business image of VMS will change and it will lose verytJ > > soon its image of beeing bulletproof - though the qsUcas are at fault.C > > I don't continue, but again, honestly, I think we can derive myeG > > conclusions from your analysis. The only difference might be in thea> > > probability: you see a very small chance to gain something > > good I don't.- > L > Well, as I said we really don't have a fundamental argument. :)  It's justM > the way you put it -- the analysis is the same, but the probability of each6 > outcome is different.g   Great!  N > > > Exactly my point. :)  What do you think though -- it's not as if you canR > > > make VMS more accessible to software developers who know what they're doing,- > > > and not to the idiots who don't, is it?- > G > > If I understand your last sentence correctly then you are saying wehH > > can't make VMS easier accessible and by the same time select betweenK > > the good and bad programmers. If you meant this I would it put a littlejJ > > bit more against the UNIX on VMS initiative: this way it's very likely@ > > that the careless UNIX crap app programmers will jump on the > > bandwaggon.t > K > That's exactly what I meant.  As the saying goes, when you make somethingh+ > that any idiot can use, every idiot will.   < Good point, but I wanted to imply that there would have been@ other means that were more directed to high quality programmers.= Again: look at Apple and how you became a certified Macintosh ; programmer (I was one for several years and *that* is not ad@ useless certificate because then you didn't get it by scoring in? an (ev. multiple choice) exam; you got it after the responsible-> country committee looked at what you've written). There aren't' crap app programmers around with MacOS.r  N > How would you go about making it easy for good programmers to get their workM > targeted to VMS, then, including that it must cost next to no time for themoM > to start out? (that's an unfair requirement, but It's there because I don'tuL > believe that companies will want their people to port to VMS -- it will beJ > up to individuals to take it up as a personal project in the beginning.)  = Very good point. Simple solution. Mentioned already. Look for- Ireland.  M > I really am curious about how this could be accomplished, since I can think-M > of ways to attract "programmers," but no way to attract only certain types.e  ( Piece of cake - see above - think about.  L > I suppose you could always implement Macintosh compatibility libraries for > DEC Pascal ;)   > If you think of having Macintosh API on VMS you're close, very close, hot! ? Do you know that NeXTSTEP runtime was once available for VMS (I-? don't know if it still is, but I doubt it because the last time05 I checked the supported platforms VMS wasn't listed).i  
 > Regards, >  > Chris  > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developerg > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  > 't   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:58:01 -0600 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>x( Subject: RE: OpenVMS Educational ProgramL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54B0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]   > Christopher Smith wrote:  @ > > It's simply one more "piece of the puzzle," so to speak.  I  > would argue that@ > > this perhaps even the most important thing for compaq to do. > < > I don't argue about that except that I insist this isn't a? > technical issue. If this is against VMS and in favour of UNIX- > crap - be it so!  L No -- unfortunately we can't only look at technical arguments.  If we could,4 VMS would have the marketshare it deserves already.     = > > Well, visual basic is bad for a few reasons.  First off,   > it's limiting where    [snip]  ? > Technically I think the syntax is far better than C/C++, PERL-; > and UNIX shell crap. I didn't know about the syntax to be-A > liberal. I have the background of strong typed PLs and I surelyrB > never went to the limit of VB syntax. But let's drop the case. I? > didn't like it very much but I didn't find it crap. I used ittB > only for a Web project and didn't know even that it would run on4 > Windows (only). It surely isn't the silver bullet.  E Nope, but I freely admit that some of my problem with visual basic is6K personal opinion.  I don't like it, but if people want to use it, that's upe to them.  ? > > That's exactly what I meant.  As the saying goes, when you - > make something- > > that any idiot can use, every idiot will.I  > > Good point, but I wanted to imply that there would have beenB > other means that were more directed to high quality programmers.? > Again: look at Apple and how you became a certified Macintosh-= > programmer (I was one for several years and *that* is not aoB > useless certificate because then you didn't get it by scoring inA > an (ev. multiple choice) exam; you got it after the responsiblef@ > country committee looked at what you've written). There aren't) > crap app programmers around with MacOS.-  D That's great for a certification program -- now how do we get peopleK interested in becoming "certified?" :)  It's unfortunate that I missed your:I mentioning of these other ways to attract good programmers.  I'll have tog# dig those posts out sometime later.F  3 > > I suppose you could always implement Macintosh ( > compatibility libraries forl > > DEC Pascal ;)   @ > If you think of having Macintosh API on VMS you're close, very
 > close, hot!dA > Do you know that NeXTSTEP runtime was once available for VMS (IoA > don't know if it still is, but I doubt it because the last timet7 > I checked the supported platforms VMS wasn't listed).-  E No, I had no idea. -- It was an "openstep" implementation, I presume?wK You're right, that's a very good idea.  Did it work for VAX, or Alpha only?s   Regards,   Chrisw  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerg Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");d 'o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:09:27 +0000c) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>a( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AB7F137.4BA0A33D@infopuls.com>  	 It's sad..   andrew harrison wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:f > >i& > > Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > > >sI > > > That's a reasonable idea, but it does destroy the Alpha performance P > > > advantage to a large degree. If you stack up a Java program on VMS againstK > > > a natively compiled program of similar quality on another platform of O > > > similar computing power, the Java program will lose. Porting the nativelya0 > > > compiled program will give better results. > > ? > > The trick is to use native Java. There is a simple but very D > > efficient way to do that without breaking the rules of SUNs JavaD > > game. This will offer the by far fastest Java implementation and8 > > bundled with the power of Alpha drive the other Java > > implementations to death.- > > % > > Isn't that a real killer app? :-)  > >  > 9 > But before that you need a native java compiler and youN9 > still need a Java environment since you have to be ablet7 > to provide the same facilites that are offered in thew1 > standard Java classes shipped with JDK 1.2/1.3.T    What is this supposed to mean???< Native Java == a native Java compiler, what the hell are you thinking when reading my posts?e? Of course do we need a Java environment so to speak. Ever heardn= about class libraries? A substantial part of these Java class + libraries are anyway implemented in C crap.a  4 > The really weird thing about your idea is that you2 > are happy to trash COE but are entirely happy to6 > propose porting an environment almost as complicated5 > as the COE API's to OpenVMS. Not only that but Javaw8 > was developed by those UNIX people who in your opinion. > couldn't develop an API to save their lives.  ? To make it short: you obviously have a clue what you're talkingr about.; 1.Changes to the VMS kernel and genuine behaviour are *very > different* from having a computing environment on top which is@ only hosted. We already have a JVM on VMS whithout any change to@ the OS. Do you think when you write? BTW this has been discussed! already in c.o.v. to much detail.f> 2.What is "Java was developed by those UNIX people who in your@ opinion couldn't develop an API to save their lives" supposed to< mean??? UNIX is very old. SUN didn't employ any of these old UNIX implentors.> - the Java language suffers from several severe design flaws -? not only my opinion: examples are in the Jolt awarded best bookw4 of the year (1999 IIRC): Component Software - Beyond Object-Oriented Programming.; - the Java class library suffers from several severe designl- flaws - not only my opinion: examples are ...r? - the implementation quality of most JVMs (if not all) severelyo= sucks - not only my opinion: do you have any Java experience?m< - SUN is awfully late on their HotJava/JIT technique and the; results so far aren't worth to be mentioned and in fact get ; rarely mentioned - this isn't an opionion - this is a fact.e3 - SUN's Java browser severely sucks - ever used it?(< - SUN canceled several promising core Java projects like the JavaOS and the Java-in-Silicon.   ; I can continue because every mentioned point reminds in two-2 additional points. So I decided to give you a try.  	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architect   	 It's sad.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:18:43 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AB7F363.A3D93802@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] >  > > Christopher Smith wrote: > A > > > It's simply one more "piece of the puzzle," so to speak.  I0 > > would argue thatB > > > this perhaps even the most important thing for compaq to do. > >k> > > I don't argue about that except that I insist this isn't aA > > technical issue. If this is against VMS and in favour of UNIX  > > crap - be it so! > N > No -- unfortunately we can't only look at technical arguments.  If we could,5 > VMS would have the marketshare it deserves already.c  ; I do. If you go back you will notice that all my concern is  technically based.  > > > > Well, visual basic is bad for a few reasons.  First off, > > it's limiting wheret >  > [snip] > A > > Technically I think the syntax is far better than C/C++, PERL = > > and UNIX shell crap. I didn't know about the syntax to beaC > > liberal. I have the background of strong typed PLs and I surely D > > never went to the limit of VB syntax. But let's drop the case. IA > > didn't like it very much but I didn't find it crap. I used itYD > > only for a Web project and didn't know even that it would run on6 > > Windows (only). It surely isn't the silver bullet. > H > Nope, but I freely admit that some of my problems with visual basic isM > personal opinion.  I don't like it, but if people want to use it, that's up 
 > to them.   Case closed.  O > > > That's exactly what I meant.  As the saying goes, when you make something*/ > > > that any idiot can use, every idiot will.p > @ > > Good point, but I wanted to imply that there would have beenD > > other means that were more directed to high quality programmers.A > > Again: look at Apple and how you became a certified Macintosh ? > > programmer (I was one for several years and *that* is not aeD > > useless certificate because then you didn't get it by scoring inC > > an (ev. multiple choice) exam; you got it after the responsiblemB > > country committee looked at what you've written). There aren't+ > > crap app programmers around with MacOS.n > F > That's great for a certification program -- now how do we get peopleM > interested in becoming "certified?" :)  It's unfortunate that I missed yourtK > mentioning of these other ways to attract good programmers.  I'll have to*% > dig those posts out sometime later.*  : I don't remember if I titulated you "idiot" but honestly I> personally think you are very reasonable and I'll send you the@ material directly although I have to collect it. BTW your direct? email account seems sometimes to have communication problems. Is. sent two emails directly to you which bounced.  P > > > I suppose you could always implement Macintosh compatibility libraries for > > > DEC Pascal ;)l > B > > If you think of having Macintosh API on VMS you're close, very > > close, hot!mC > > Do you know that NeXTSTEP runtime was once available for VMS (I C > > don't know if it still is, but I doubt it because the last timeg9 > > I checked the supported platforms VMS wasn't listed).e > G > No, I had no idea. -- It was an "openstep" implementation, I presume?n  5 Right, they had chosen this name for the environment.-  M > You're right, that's a very good idea.  Did it work for VAX, or Alpha only?e  ? AFAIR it was Alpha only - sorry to say this. I'm pretty sure iti was at least on Alpha. > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrisr > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer- > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");: > 'V   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:10:52 +0000i) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> ( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AB7F18C.8D6E2546@infopuls.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > _ > In article <3AB7721A.BCDEB31C@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:m >  > >Not only that but Javad: > > was developed by those UNIX people who in your opinion0 > > couldn't develop an API to save their lives. > B > He's right on that.  Way too much UNIX assumption in Java's fileE > handling, even the File class is wrong.  And of course all non-UNIXs; > OS have different (not portable) ways of dealing with it.  > F > Most of the OS specific code I've had to write in my Java apps dealsE > with vendor supplied variations on mapping real file names to File.  > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation?? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupoG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingo   :-))  : If I understand you correctly you are using Andrew's point  against him and Java. Well done!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:14:38 -0000 , From: "Richard Maher" <Tier3@btinternet.com>( Subject: Re: RMS Alpha COBOL and RMS-STS1 Message-ID: <998a6c$8c0$1@uranium.btinternet.com>g   Thanks very much!u  K Curiously enough I was testing a relative file at the time so block i/o mayf have come into play.  K I, like many others, really value your opinion on all things I/O especiallyN/ RMS! So if I can push it for one more question:   K Which whould you say was more expensive / had greater impact on transaction: throughput?n  E a)  Disk i/o to handle the creation update and deletion of additional  journal file info   (                                       or  ; b) Doing a $declare_rm / $forget_rm for *every* transactionl   Regards Richard Maherl  H <hein@eps.zko.dec.c*m> wrote in message news:20MAR200100583936@miasys...E > In article <995m5t$ahk$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>, "Richard Maher"n  <Tier3@btinternet.com> writes... > >Hi, > >aL > >I understand that the address of the rms-sts fields can no longer be used to  > >access rabs/fabs in DEC COBOL >e > K >     The RABs/FABs are part of the .OBJ on VAX.  On Alpha, the RTL createsiJ >     RABs/FABs as needed.  This is why the DCOB$ routine calls are needed onD >     Alpha to return the address information known only to the RTL. > H >     The user should heed Appendix E of the DEC COBOL Reference Manual.D >     This Appendix describes two functions DCOB$RMS_CURRENT_FAB andD >     DCOB$RMS_CURRENT_RAB which return the addresses of the RMS FAB >     and RAB for a file.m >iF > >Also, am I wrong in thinking the rms-sts, stv fields *aren't* being updated F > >for every error? (IE: I'm in my "declaratives" yet the rms-sts says# > >rms$_normal) Can anyone explain?a >o >eF >     RMS special registers are specific to DEC COBOL and VAX COBOL onL >     OpenVMS.  In addition, there are differences in the implementations ofJ >     RMS special registers between the 2 architectures as detailed in the3 >     DEC COBOL User Manual Compatibility Appendix.  > B >     There have been some rtl updates to handle RMS-STS problems.5 >     Please check your cobol and cobol rtl versions.a > C >     DEC COBOL will sometimes emulate RMS record IO (SYS$GET) with E >     block IO (SYS$READ) for performance reasons. Perhaps STS is notu >     handled exactly the same.b >t >o > hth, > Hein.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:05:50 -0500 2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com>7 Subject: Re: Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPOREb8 Message-ID: <E_Tt6.80516$lj4.2183917@news6.giganews.com>  2 I really get a kick out of these ads. Is there anyD job out there for someone less than a " Senior System Administrator"+ Do "seniors" just ripen and fall off trees?p  8 Give me a break, spend a few bucks on training on a less2 senior guy; you will get your money back 100 times in dedication.   Bill  1 <Steve.Spires@yellowpages.co.uk> wrote in messaget) news:00256A14.005129EE.00@quegw01.btyp...v > cc:  > bcc:H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazad >w, > Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE >  > K > I've had permission from the guy who mail this to me [Craig Humphreys] toy passI > this on as I can't, unfortunately, take the second interview because myh wife hasG > changed her mind [is that grounds for divorce? ;^D ] so if anyone outp thereo, > would fancy this, get in touch with Craig. >oK > By the way, having been there before, Singapore is a terrific environmentM to
 > work in. >t > Steve Spires >xC >   ---------------------- Forwarded by Steve Spires/YellowPages on,
 19/03/2001& > 02:43 PM --------------------------- >i >wE > Steve Spires <stevespires@compuserve.com> on 19/03/2001 09:18:13 AM  >t% > To:        Steve Spires/YellowPagesb > cc:gK > From:      Steve Spires <stevespires@compuserve.com>, 19 March 2001, 9:18. a.m. >e, > Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE >h >  >c >  >  >n1 > -------------Forwarded Message-----------------t >tA > From:     "Craig Humphreys", INTERNET:craig@eurotechnique.co.uku+ > To:  , INTERNET:craig@eurotechnique.co.ukM >n > Date:     08/03/01 10:50 >r1 > RE:  Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPOREo >A >oG > Please pardon the intrusion, I am currently seeking resources for the D > following Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPORE - Permanent / Salaried
 > PositionH > If interested please call me for further info (PS I will not be in the% > office tomorrow - Friday 9th March), >r9 > *** Family Relocation package for 2 year commitment ***  >'F > To support Business Critical Services customers e.g. banks,telecoms,' > including proactive/reactive servicesa >  > Essential:B > Min 5 yrs (ideal>10) OpenVMS systems management V6.2 to V7.2-1H1> > * VAX & Alphas from AS1000 thru to GS140 or better GS160/320; > *managing large OpenVMS clusters in business critical env- > *DECnet Phase IV & DECnet/OSIh > *TCP/IP Digital UCXa >i > Desirable: > *Crashdump analysisr" > *internals programming/knowledge
 > *X25 SNA > *Digital Unix/Compaq TRU64 > C > ***** PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE NOW MOVED TO LONDON - NEW DETAILS BELOW 	 *********  >  > Kind Regards,  >t > Craig Humphreyss > Managing Directorh >aH > EuroTechnique Consulting - Specialists in IT Recruitment & ConsultancyE > 61 The London Fruit & Wool Exchange, Old Spitalfields Fruit Market,w" > Brushfield Street, London E1 6EX" > Direct Line: +44 (0)20 7422 0909" > Switchboard: +44 (0)20 7422 0900 > Mobile: +44 (0)7970 212909 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7247 9154" > Email: craig@eurotechnique.co.uk" > Website: www.eurotechnique.co.uk >NH > This Email and any attachments should be read only by those persons to whomJ > they are addressed. The information or views expressed in this Email areK > those of the individual sender and not Euro-Technique (Computer Services)dF > Ltd. (EuroTechnique Consulting). EuroTechnique Consulting accepts noK > responsibility for any loss or damage incurred through use of this Email.e? > Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure,6
 modification,iG > distribution and/or publication of this email is strictly prohibited.  >  >h >s >a >y >aJ > ----------------------- Internet Header --------------------------------# > Sender: craig@eurotechnique.co.uk B > Received: from btclick.com (mta02.btfusion.com [62.172.195.247])E >      by sphmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) with ESMTP idl	 FAA26262;e+ >      Thu, 8 Mar 2001 05:50:33 -0500 (EST) 8 > Received: from WinProxy.anywhere ([213.123.184.24]) byE >           btclick.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05) with SMTP id 8 >           G9VKS702.1DP; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:50:31 +0000I > Received: from 172.20.1.103 by 172.20.1.202 (WinProxy); Thu, 8 Mar 2001  10:52:58 > +0000e5 > From: "Craig Humphreys" <craig@eurotechnique.co.uk>i! > To: <craig@eurotechnique.co.uk>p5 > Subject: Senior OpenVMS systems manager - SINGAPOREu& > Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:51:52 -00007 > Message-ID: <001401c0a7bd$c90b4370$670114ac@etws0003>t > MIME-Version: 1.0u > Content-Type: text/plain;u >      charset="iso-8859-1"e! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitr > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > X-MSMail-Priority: Normali> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) > Importance: Normal: > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 >i >i >b >I > [Information] -- PostMaster:F > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beI > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has  beenD > addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,
 distribute ori > use this transmission. >gJ > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee is nothJ > intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received thisH > transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. >a > Thank you. >e >S   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:20:46 +0100s+ From: Arne Bergseth <Arne.Bergseth@dnv.com>f Subject: Re: system logicals' Message-ID: <3AB801EE.C5FDD4C2@dnv.com>    Tom Linden wrote:l  L > Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I am looking for a document that > would listJ > the system logicals that are universal to all VMS installations, e.g. is
 > SYS$LIBRARYyJ > a universal and unambiguous logical in all versions of VMS from say 5.5? >l > TIAr > Tome   Yes,C From VMS version 1.6 on VAX (the first version I used) and probablyrF before then, the SYS$LIBRARY logical name has existed, and has had the0 same purpose and usage on all VMS installations.K The translation has changed from a single directory into a search list, but M the usage has been the same, and I am not afraid that it will go away as longa as VMS exists. Same with   SYS$SYSTEM            SYS$MANAGER            SYS$HELPe            SYS$TESTi            SYS$UPDATEe and       SYS$INPUT             SYS$OUTPUTl            SYS$ERROR            SYS$LOGIN            .... @ Some of the documentation about logical names is in the manuals:* Open VMS User's Manual chapter 13,     and1 Open VMS Programming Concepts Manual,  chapter 12e& There is a table with explanations in:N http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/72final/6489/6489pro_031.html#log_nam_def_st   Also:  Open VMS Master IndexiH which contain references to where the different logicals are documented.  
 Arne Bergsethh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:45:42 -0800n! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>t Subject: sytem logicals 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAELECDAA.tom@kednos.com>U  J Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I am looking for a document that
 would listH the system logicals that are universal to all VMS installations, e.g. is SYS$LIBRARYkH a universal and unambiguous logical in all versions of VMS from say 5.5?   TIAn Tomo   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:55:10 GMTa2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: sytem logicals 1 Message-ID: <y5St6.181$eE2.9929@news.cpqcorp.net>e  ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAELECDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:oK :Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I am looking for a document thatpM :would list the system logicals that are universal to all VMS installations, n  H   You clearly have some particular problem in mind here -- what are you >   up to?  What particular problem(s) are you looking to solve?  L :e.g. is SYS$LIBRARY a universal and unambiguous logical in all versions of  :VMS from say 5.5?  F   There are various logical names that are established by the OpenVMS D   system kernel (eg: topsys), logical names that are created by the G   OpenVMS startup (eg: sys$startup), logical names that get created in fF   a detached process by LOGINOUT (with /AUTHORIZE) (eg: sys$scratch), G   logical names that get created and/or munged by users and by various k"   layered products (eg: sys$node).  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:54:33 -0500j2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com> Subject: Re: sytem logicals>8 Message-ID: <2QTt6.80462$lj4.2182571@news6.giganews.com>  ' If you have the authorization to do so,a* search through sylogon for "define/system"; or just do a brute force search using disk:[000000...]*.com  define,sys/match=and Bill  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAELECDAA.tom@kednos.com... L > Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I am looking for a document that > would listJ > the system logicals that are universal to all VMS installations, e.g. is
 > SYS$LIBRARY J > a universal and unambiguous logical in all versions of VMS from say 5.5? >s > TIAy > Tom  >    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Mar 2001 19:28:32 GMT/ From: Hans.Bachner@altavista.net (Hans Bachner)e$ Subject: Re: TCP/IP 5.0A ECO Appears( Message-ID: <998egq.ac.1@hans.myfqdn.de>  + Peter LANGSTOEGER (eplan@kapsch.net) wrote:,  G >In article <VA.0000014a.14081d45@sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> 	 >writes: hH >>In article <ZR_M5.11$iB4.10761@news.enterprise.net>, NewsReader wrote: <snip>I >>> I contacted Compaq after downloading the patch & not able to install.IG >>> They said the PCSI kit wasn't available! (that was a week after thenI >>> TCP/IP ECO was released). Now what is the point of releasing a kit wer: >>> can't install? To tease us perhaps... I'm waiting too. >>> I >>I've been waiting too, albeit I'm only running a hobbyist system, so ita >>isn't urgent for me. >>C >>I did start exploring the TCPIP kit with a view to doing a manualeA >>extraction, but thought it better to wait for the official fix.e >vI >The target date (1-nov-2000) for the VAX PCSI ECO kit passed by, and I'mdC >still not able to install the ECO 1 for TCPIP V5.0A on my VAXes...r  L The long awaited VMS72_PCSI ECO for OpenVMS VAX is now officially available G (I'm sure your local support organisations have provided a provisional lJ version of this kit earlier). The kit does not show up on the patches web L site yet, but should soon be available there. Until then, your local Compaq " support can provide the final kit.   Hope this helps. -- o: ---------------- speaking only for myself ----------------: Hans Bachner               E-Mail: Hans.Bachner@compaq.com Compaq Computer Austria)) Compaq Global Services - Software Supporte   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 02:56:32 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: THE EMC Chronicleso- Message-ID: <871yrs46cf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  7 Lyndon Bartels <lyndon.bartels@childrenshc.org> writes:   ? > My place of employ has decided to dive into the EMC pool. (Of ? > course, with EMC salesman over her two or three times a week,eE > smoozing with the powers that be, there was considerable pressure.)t  C > Anyway, I've been keeping a diary of sorts of our experience withfD > the hardware, and gettting it to work on our Alphas. I thought I'd > share it with you all.  H Glad you did. I ahve been wondering about this whole 'great new' storage thing.   > THE EMC Chronicles.h  ; > EMC Symmetrics and OpenVMS connection history and issues.l  C > The goal is to have the primary, or source site be our productionoD > site... A secondary, or target, site would be used for developmentD > work, under normal conditions that is. In the event of a disaster,D > development work would cease, and production would continue at the > development site.l  ( Seems a common, straight forward idea...   <chomp>i   > Second attempt: Fibre Channelm > C > This configuration holds the promise of high availability, NPSOF," > and multipath load balancing.!  B > The configuration is as follows. Two ES40s. Each with two CIPCAsD > connecting to StorageWorks storage subsystems. (This is for system> > disk, and cluster communication.) Two Fibre Channel adapters, > (KGPSA-CA). Two Ethernet adapters (DE500).  @ > Each Fibre channel adapter is connected into each of two Fibre> > Channel switches forming the traditional "Boxed X" redundantF > configuration. In turn, two EMC ports, presenting the same disks areA > connected to the switches, one port to each switch. Thus, NSPOFoB > requirements are met. Any single element failure would not bring > down the fibre fabric.  ? > After assuring all ECOs were applied to OpenVMS, hardware wasw
 > configured.   = So all of the 'saga' is on the EMC side? The CI stuff was OK?a     > Second issue.... > 0 > Disk size/free blocks giving incorrect data...   Gark...-   <more chomp>  E > The next issue came up as a result of actually trying to accomplish B > some work with the EMC disks. One the source site, EMC disks areF > mounted read/write. Some of these disks are replicated to the targetF > site. There, another VMS system sees these disks, and can mount them@ > read-only. So far, so good. Keep in mind, the computers at theE > source site, and the computers at the target site do NOT know about4@ > one another. Are not part of a common cluster, etc. This is byC > design. On the source side, this is our production system, on thetF > target side, this is our development system that also doubles as our > disaster production site.   D > Our DBAs (Database Administrators) want to log DB changes to these@ > replicated disks, then at the remote site read the changes and> > reproduce these changes to a copy of the database there. TheA > database files themselves are not replicated through EMC's SRDFiA > process. Only the disks with the log files. This, theoreticallyo? > reduces the amount of data being pushed across the SRDF link.)B > Anyway, while copying files to a replicated disk, the replicatedA > 'target' was showing some odd behavior. Files were not present,M= > etc. "no such file" errors after source files were deleted,bE > etc. After a dismount/mount, the file and directory information wasHB > reconciled. I called CSC and was told, as I suspected, that thisA > wasn't supported. And it makes sense. I believe that the disk's > > directory information was cached, and the cache wasn't being8 > updated. If a node has a volume mounted read-only, andE > as-far-as-it-knows, no other node is accessing that volume, then nooD > changes can be made to that volume, so why would the computer evenD > need to go out to that disk and refresh directory information. CSCC > agreed. CSC suggested mounting the disk "/nocache" to see if thisiC > would solve the problem. In a way this has done as we wished. AnyiA > access to the disk in question, by the target host, goes to thebE > disk, and not through any cache. This is good that changes are seenhA > right away.... The bad news is that by doing a show device, the 3 > freeblocks does not change with file creation andAD > deletion. So.. while accessing files seems to be OK.... One cannot? > trust the freeblock information about such a disk. What otherh? > aspects of the target copy have yet to arise, I don't know...b  = Your DBAs seem to be a bit short on files systems, and VMS ina> particular. This is just not supported, it is real "will fail"< stuff. It was tried in former times over and over again withE dual-ported disks. It *WILL* end in disaster for the disks. Some how,eC one day, the 'that shold not happen' in your procedure will happen. A That's also the day you are going to NEED the logs. Murphies gold, plated promise on that one!    > February 27, 2001t  J > We've just discovered a new wrinkle in our database reproduction theory. > C > To recap, the database at the source site will be writing archivelD > files to a disk. That disk, through EMC will be recplicated at theD > target site. At the target site, another database is going to readB > those archive files, and reproduce those changes to the database > there.  D > We've found out that the database at the target site wants to openC > the archive files read-write.... One can't do that on a read-only2F > disk. One solution to this dilemna is to have break the replication,B > mount the target copy read-write, do the archiving, dismount the- > disk, and re-establish the replication.....   C > Yyeeeuchk! This keeps getting more complicated every time we turnrD > around....  This unsynch-mount-dismount-resynch series is supposedE > to happen every half hour.... I really don't like yet another layer  > of complication.....  ? > On top of this... there's the issue of having production data F > readily available on our development systems.... Granted it's a copyF > of production data.... But we split the cluster into two clusters toC > separate development away from production. Why? To help garauntee-@ > the integrity of production data...  With the current databaseF > reproduction theory being persued, I don't feel comfortable with the8 > integrity of the production data on the target system.  A The number of potential points of failure or confusion is gettings down-right scary!A   > March 2, 2001   A > We've solved the issue with the database archive files.... It'srB > kinda kludgey, but I've seen/heard of uglier. The solution is asA > follows. There will be a disk, mounted on the target site.. The1B > Oracle reproduction operation will copy files from the read-onlyE > disk to this temporary disk, then read/write open them... and applyh> > them to the reproduction database..... Apparently, this is a@ > temporary solution... because at some point in the near future< > Oracle 8i will be installed and this won't be necessary...  @ You hope, and add the hope that 'some one' does not pick anotherG database. ( Remember to shoot any DB salek before he smoozes the boss!)b  ; > I met with EMC people yesterday... We were working on the F > "scripting" (dern unixoids... everything's a script.) First off theyF > sent out people that only had experience with Windows NT.... I guessE > at EMC whenever somebody reads or hears "VMS" they go brain-dead or B > something and figure that people who can simultaneously walk andA > chew bubble gum are intellectually capable of answering any VMSA > questions that come to mind.  $ That answers one question about EMC.   <chomp BCV stuff>A  $ > But it's something to be aware of.   Another gotcha?u  rE > 2. Our DBAs have come across a Database issue. Something to do withsF > control files, etc... Now we have to add a step on our target site'sC > Recovery steps...  We have to split off the BCVs and try to bring F > the Database on-line. If things go well, then we bring the BCVs backA > into the fold. Otherwise, we dismount the R2s, restore from thecB > BCVs, split them apart again, remount the R2s, and try somethingD > else, etc. Until we're happy with the condition of the Database onB > the target site... So I have to find out about that... I need toA > find out the steps for either restoring, or re-establishing thei > R2-BCV pairs.v  F This seems to be a new definition of high availability!! How long doesA all these gymnastics go on for? How much does it cost, or in thiso4 case, how many patients lives are at increased risk?  ,F Considering that many split sites running CI over fibre would not evenC blink an eye at what you are trying, and expect it to be a straight-. forward job, this seems a huge step backwards.  F Would FC and HSGs be any better? Would a GB speed optical CI follow on? be the answer? ( with the HS?80s and CIP?As as well of course )    -- b< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.v@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Mar 2001 19:42:56 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>G Subject: Re: VMS-based webservers (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)r6 Message-ID: <20010320194256.31861.qmail@nym.alias.net>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  ; On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:s6 >On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:26:49 -0600, Christopher Smith ><csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:y >  >tM >>I don't know how "efficient" it would be, but you certainly could draw that-N >>conclusion.  I'm afraid nobody at compaq (maybe sue. :) wants to market VMS,N >>though. (If somebody can disprove this, by the way, then that would be nice. >MD >Well someone in the UK managed to get out an VMS ad in a mainstreamF >computer industry publication just last week. Must be about the firstG >time in ten years. And just a few minutes ago I picked up the phone to C >be asked if I wished to take part in a Compaq survey of VMS users.i. >Never happened before that I can ever recall.    ; Anybody else gets called, please follow these instructions:t  % (a) Place handkerchief over receiver.d (b) Insist on full anonymity.t  + Result: They're bound to listen to you. <g>i     Doc.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----l Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBOraPcsriC3SGiziTAQEVfAgAo35HQSHotggPad6MJA11pvB2HS0Ec3iq@ uHUIat5/tsTJAm3e3ETev9ZOPMnR5RNPp+ZJNiFHFWjs/zEVc3pd1YzeUq0AGZ+d@ j8pyMtoxY4dWzoyld1HzhYycr9M0/LGYgg5BG/2njVg8xEh/VwfH8ldCkX+0mMjk@ 7/Jcv+MUZ0SBnBSXbepFZce1lfkEsUyO26rBJyuFklL0wLrfA9tWh+hfBxoUFuRN@ J7JT7HS2fn7OENd1hmQJTnXr4LBtY8o5xztlwys/LyJdpRZvKvZotiXBTRMU6uur8 Fmzb7OCs2FmVKfhZT7/ZWpr3Cp+9aUTv1kKxz1NpGfbQVHT2M/VmHA== =BIXva -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----y   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.159 ************************