1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 22 Mar 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 161       Contents:. A new question regarding COE and/or Unix & VMS Re: BASIC side effect  Re: BASIC side effect P Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (wP Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (wP Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (wC Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with...) ! Can this be done through lexicals F Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?$ Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systems changing IPs on Multinet Re: COE implementation details Re: COE implementation details Re: COE implementation details1 RE: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 RE: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 1 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all ! 0 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ? Not at all !0 Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ? Not at all !9 Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgram? Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  ...) M Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) P Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) PrP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProP Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMSEducationalProgram) ProgO Re: Eunice and DII COE (was: Re: A new question regarding COE and/or Unix & VMS  Re: Good News for VMS  Re: HELP on License Requestor 5 HELP!!! Strange Problem With OpenVMS Porting Library. 9 Re: HELP!!! Strange Problem With OpenVMS Porting Library. # Re: Info on low level driver access # Re: Info on low level driver access " Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts/ Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage  Re: OpenVMS Educational Program 8 Pointless VMS v. UNIX arguments (was: almost everything)# Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions # Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions 7 RE: STARLETSD and SDL/NOPARSE (was: RE: sytem logicals) 7 RE: STARLETSD and SDL/NOPARSE (was: RE: sytem logicals)  Re: Support of old systems Re: Support of old systems Re: TCP/IP 5.0A ECO Appears < Re: The art of flaming (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)# Uaf Show/rights status bug (v7.2-1) P RE: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was	Re:OpenVMS EducP Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EduP Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EduP Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EduP Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMS EducP Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMS Educ0 Re: [change topic] First VMS cluster in Europe ? Re: [DCL] minute of the day  Re: [DCL] minute of the day  Re: [DCL] minute of the day  Re: [DCL] minute of the day  Re: [DCL] minute of the day  [Q] Need Help on Backup Script" Re: [Q] Need Help on Backup Script" Re: [Q] Need Help on Backup Script  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 21:11:46 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 7 Subject: A new question regarding COE and/or Unix & VMS + Message-ID: <99b5ei$1fu$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>   = Is there any reason why something akin to Eunice could not be @ used to meet the requirements of COE while leaving VMS untouched@ underneath??  Was there anything important that was missing from@ Eunice?? (I only used it a few times and even that was ages ago,= although I do still have a tape labeled Eunice hanging in the  tape locker!!)  ? The biggest shortcoming I remember was speed, but I would think = that with the speed of porcessors today, that would not be as > serious a shortcoming. (It wasn't really that slow compared to+ VMS, given the hardware it was running on.)   ( Hmmm. Could you do a fork under Eunice??   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:15:18 -0500 & From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: BASIC side effect8 Message-ID: <C%6u6.10620$7g.212052@wagner.videotron.net>  ! I've been doing this all my life. 9 Seriously, this is very valid code, and I use that a lot. L It sometimes get the code more easy to read, when you have long, complicated, IF statements. You can split the conditions. Not a good example below:  MALE = SEX="M" YOUNG = AGE<20G IF MALE AND YOUNG THEN PRINT "Your are not a women! And you are young!"    --   Syltrem   http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  G "cstranslations" <cstranslations@email.msn.com> a crit dans le message $ news: etFZm9hsAHA.291@cpmsnbbsa09...K > I was working on some code written in BASIC and decided to give something  a G > try (not expecting the compiler to acctually accept it).  Interesting  enoughC > BASIC didn't complain. Below is a small sample where the compiler 	 generates H > code matching a C style side effect (OpenVMS 7.1-1H2 and 7.2-1, Alpha, BASIC $ > 1.3 and 1.4). I'm still surprised. > % > Just thought I'd pass this along...  >  > Joe  >  > option type = explicit >  > declare string   SearchStr > declare integer  result  >  > set no prompt  >  > input "_string: "; SearchStr > * > result = (seg$(SearchStr, 1, 3) = "ABC") > if (result) then( >    print "The 1st 3 letters are 'ABC'" > else> >    print "The string does not start with (upper case) 'ABC'" > end if > print  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:10:03 GMT 5 From: danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook)  Subject: Re: BASIC side effect- Message-ID: <slrn9bi6g3.s1n.danco@pebble.org>   2 On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:56:00 -0700, cstranslations% <cstranslations@email.msn.com> wrote:   N > If they would add a pointer/derefence mechanism that would be rather useful." > But then that'll never happen...  + If they did that, I could stop coding in C! + (well, at least for pure OpenVMS only code)    - Dan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:47:56 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (w , Message-ID: <3AB94BBC.89E04A1E@infopuls.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  > 4 > On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:20:20 +0000, Christof Brass > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:  > B > >The UNIXification of VMS already started. That's why we have to* > >express our concerns and fight against. > G > No we don't as nothing will be done to break backwards compatibility. C > Where new changes are required to the operation of underlying VMS G > features to support COE you will be able to turn these features on or F > off. For example $ SET VOLUME/ENABLE=ACCESS_DATES is required beforeD > VMS starts retaining read dates.  $ SET VOLUME/ENABLE=HARDLINKS toG > enable unix style hard links  $ SET VOLUME/CASE_LOOKUP=SENSITIVE etc.  > / > This from the new features manual for 7.2-6C1  >  > >  > -- > Alan  = If this is really true then the damage could be less than the - potential gain. Thanks for pointing that out! % Two questions and one concern remain: 9 Will this switch facility make the kernel slower and more . complicated, less reliable, harder to develop?? What about that directory modification date change problem when . a directory needs more or less blocks on disk?; What about write permission to the directory implies delete ' permission on a file in that directory?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:47:07 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (w ' Message-ID: <3AB975BB.EB5C96D9@fsi.net>    Christof Brass wrote: = > What about write permission to the directory implies delete ) > permission on a file in that directory?   H Don't you also need (W)rite access to the file before you can delete it?  F I don't have a Linux or FreeBSD box running right now, or I'd check itH out myself. There is a Tru64 system I could get to from here, but I onlyG know the root password there and don't know how to shed root privileges  long enough to test that.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:26:17 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIXElements? (w , Message-ID: <3AB97EE9.87FABD75@infopuls.com>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote: ? > > What about write permission to the directory implies delete + > > permission on a file in that directory?  > J > Don't you also need (W)rite access to the file before you can delete it? > H > I don't have a Linux or FreeBSD box running right now, or I'd check itJ > out myself. There is a Tru64 system I could get to from here, but I onlyI > know the root password there and don't know how to shed root privileges  > long enough to test that.  >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > < > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > H > This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings > is to be expected. > B > Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression. > H > However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are > strongly discouraged.   ? This doesn't matter because VMS requires delete permission. But > to save you some time: it is possible to delete a file without? having write permission on that file. Reason, simple but stupid & (KISS): only the directory is changed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:44:38 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> L Subject: Re: Boring the pants off the COV (was RE: Dumbing Down VMS with...), Message-ID: <3AB94AF6.5B6ADF40@infopuls.com>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:  > $ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > A > On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:  >  > <snip> > N > >> I've been following this "VMS is the best thing since Alan Turing's time" > >> argument for too long now.  > >  > >Misunderstanding. > H > Really? You do seem to be in favour of VMS in an almost fanatical way.   Technical, *technical*!   P > >> If COE is the lifeline that might help bring VMS out of relative obscurity,M > >> fine. End of Discussion. Please! [Even Andrew seems to agree with that!]  > > , > >With this method it wouldn't VMS anymore. > L > No, it would be VMS plus. Plus a modicum of standardization. Plus a commonM > API which UN*X will also have. Essentially, plus something pretty sensible. L > It *will* permitting easy porting of applications. Underlying the solution > from "The Q" would be VMS.  ? To my knowledge they're changing VMS to its worse. Your view is  an ideal, not reality.   [SNIP]  B > >The UNIXification of VMS already started. That's why we have to* > >express our concerns and fight against. > J > VMS cannot become "just another UN*X". VMS will not become "just anotherI > UN*X". And, I'd agree with you when you say VMS should not become "just D > another UN*X", but you're being rabid about this. Look upon COE asM > expecting UN*X to raise their standards (or at least find some) rather than  > VMS lowering its standard.  ; See above. And there even more problems to come. VMS should  evolve in its natural own way.   [SNIP]   > >We don't need another UNIX. > 7 > You do - you obviously don't like the one you've got.    I'm fine with VMS.  M > >> Anyway, the options and issues discussed in this thread simply look like O > >> nonsense. I've still got my sharp engineer's pencil - and that solves more K > >> problems than *any* sort of computer. We are discussing tools, and the P > >> black vs. white arguments promoted herein look like comparing square wheelsP > >> with triangular ones. They're all round, but some come with pneumatic tyres: > >> (unlike Weeniedoze which doesn't survive bumpy apps). > > ? > >We need different tools. We don't need to change one tool to C > >another. From your abstract point of view this should make sense 
 > >to you. > H > COE isn't about tools. It is about toolmaking. Consider it in the sameI > manner as universal adoption of the Metric System. You might prefer the G > old, but you're as likely to win fighting progress as King Canute was  > trying to command the tides.  < AFAIK the "UNIX on VMS" initiative will lower the quality of? VMS. We don't need that. If you put a layer on VMS which can be ( removed or not installed - fine with me.   > Doc. >  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  > Version: 2.6.2 > B > iQEVAwUBOrfg8sriC3SGiziTAQHn8Qf/c1qnOG403ru61tiJNPofVDFvbWWvZrX5B > rI0QxN7icRK1dl+75YdaSlrXJzoWcjrUjMf7pajqR4h6aJ2a/2eoht/UV3Geor0AB > HUuDAhbOTyV5TkSE4u59N8gwQSxGj2SIAbbphk8CJLi9RZFBRJWwQyy7PhPt/F+rB > drTaNvL5/QJlKfJqUam45b+nl7oxgcXQNRgP5g9VGmNw8EMoonynT5ZI9/SaaFPCB > a/ee1f0jHxPC+UjWe74Ii2PgpGLX37odfC/Y11Muuij7CCpUir+RgDz8EP6qGONJ: > Kok9drooNCQD5a1iejXpKkWDaCXAAGZvI8HAMjYy3sEN+PKeDV4CjA== > =Y6gR  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:06:13 GMT 2 From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@nospam.hotmail.com>* Subject: Can this be done through lexicals4 Message-ID: <985219422.703330@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>   All,K I have what may be an easy question, but I cannot find the answer. Any helpE always welcome.S   1.J If I insert a DAT tape (DDSII/DDSIII) into a drive, is there a function orK parameter i can read, either directly or via a DCL COM routine, where I cane get the tape capacity?L I know I can look on the tape, but I would like to try to generate a routine8 that does something like this when you put your tape in:" "You have just loaded a xxGB tape"   2.L Can the same be done for a DAT tape drive? This would be to determine if theH drive was compatible with a tape. EG "Drive capacity is 4GB maximum tape capacity is 4GB"  H I'm sure there must be a function to read somewhere or some way of doing this, but I'm stuck.  K The requirement has come from a customer that tried to use a 12GB tape in ayH 4GB drive, I would like to put something in place (a warning maybe) that% will alert him when it happens again.   J Using: Alpha 255/VMS 7.1 (can't remember the tape model number off the top of my head - sorry)o   Thanks in advance    Andy Proctor   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:51:47 -0600t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>tO Subject: Re: Can VMS "root" from a device other than the one it is booted from?r' Message-ID: <3AB93E93.87E036F5@fsi.net>n   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > / > "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes:  >  > > Paul Repacholi wrote:o8 > > > Is the Hobby CD bootable? Never seen one myself... > >o9 > > I'm not sure whether you mean "are there any bootable 9 > > OpenVMS CDs"; if that is what you mean then yes there  > > are. > I > No, I know that CDs are, or can be bootable, I'm wondering if the Hobbyo > kits ARE bootable. > > > Can't imagine they are ot, but, it would be nice to be sure.  ' Yes - the hobbyist kits *ARE* bootable!t   Good news, eh?   --   David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:28:05 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>n- Subject: Re: Catalyst for growth? ERP systemse, Message-ID: <3AB94715.F8F7A20A@infopuls.com>   Alan Greig wrote:t > 4 > On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:03:09 +0000, Christof Brass > <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:E   [SNIP]  H > Are you talking about mysap (the relatively new web access screens) orE > the older halfway solutions via weblinks to custom written code? If F > mysap then it may be a waste of computing power but it is selling by- > the bucket-load (just like crap I suppose).t > B > >SAP could do two things together - instead of merely porting to> > >VMS: they could implement a proper Web access layer on VMS.   [SNIP]  F > It is true that Bill Gates stated this and I asked about this at SAPC > UK a couple of months ago. SAP still only recommend Microsoft SQL B > Server in low end configurations despite what Bill might have us	 > believet >  > >the year before.  >  > -- > Alan  < I was talking about mySAP. This is a complete crap system in@ that it parses the output of the classical terminal programs and> converts them to HTML. Could you imagine how sick someone must be to invent this shit?(   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:43:42 -0800e! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>g! Subject: changing IPs on Multinet 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEOHCDAA.tom@kednos.com>   K Am running Multinet 3.3 on 6.2 Alpha, and had to change our IPs.  I did thee obvious things 1.  Edited hosts.localC 2.  ran MULTINET CONFIG/MENU  to change the gateway and DNS entries  3.  did HOST_TABLE COMPILEG 3.  rebooted (couldn't figure out how to shutdown or restart MULTINET )     D When running MULTINET CHECK  I get a warning that there is a version mismatchh on NETWORK_DATABASEr which is probably OK  L when I try to telnet to one of our other machines it says trying... with the old IP?O   What have I missed?s   Tom    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:15:55 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)O' Subject: Re: COE implementation detailsp, Message-ID: <99aulb$301p$8@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <87k85j80m5.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com>,/  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:w* |> Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |> RB |> > $ SET VOLUME/ENABLE=HARDLINKS to enable unix style hard links |> OH |> But VMS already has 'hard links'. No ref counts, but it does have the9 |> links.  So what is the change if you enable hardlinks?s   I stand corrected!!E   bill   -- :J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ]   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:55:23 -0500u- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>e' Subject: Re: COE implementation detailsu4 Message-ID: <aH7u6.163357$Z2.2017743@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagei* news:87k85j80m5.fsf_-_@prep.synonet.com...) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:1 >rA > > $ SET VOLUME/ENABLE=HARDLINKS to enable unix style hard linksn > C > But VMS already has 'hard links'. No ref counts, but it does have  thee8 > links.  So what is the change if you enable hardlinks?  C Going back to the "OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.2-6C1 - New Features andE Release Notes" documenthF (http://www.openvms.compaq.com/solutions/government/coe/AA-RNALA-TE.PDE F) it explains; (and this also answers a question that was asked hereh. before about disk quotas when using hardlinks)  7 -------------------------------------------------------rC With the introduction of hard link support in OpenVMS Alpha Versiona 7.2-6C1,F OpenVMS now supports three kinds of links: primary links, aliases, and hard links.  F OpenVMS Alpha supports files with 0 or more links. The first link to a file is C referred to as the ''primary link,'' and is distinguished by havings
 the directoryoC ID and name of the link stored in the file header. Additional linksn will be eitherA aliases or hard links, depending on an attribute of the volume ond which the file? resides. All links on a volume must represent files on the same5 volume.   A The essential difference between hard links and aliases is in thee effect of a delete? operation. What is usually referred to as deleting a file is ina essence deleting aC link to that file. A file is actually deleted when the primary linkt and all hardE links to the file are deleted. If a file has a primary link and aliass links, deletingn= the primary link deletes the file, leaving the alias entries.  Attempting to access aC file through an alias link to a deleted file results in a ''no sucht
 file'' error.n  F An important related consideration is disk quota. On OpenVMS, the size of eacheE file is charged to the file owner's disk quota. If other users createo hard links to aIE file, they are not charged disk quota. The owner may delete any links  to the filea> in directories he can access, while hard links in other user's directories may causeeF the file to be retained; the owner will continue to be charged for its quota.. ----------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Mar 2001 05:22:52 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: COE implementation details - Message-ID: <87hf0m7r6b.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  / "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:   B > ------------------------------------------------------- With theE > introduction of hard link support in OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.2-6C1, D > OpenVMS now supports three kinds of links: primary links, aliases, > and hard links.   5 > OpenVMS Alpha supports files with 0 or more links. e  B I am going to throw in a request here. VMS has the idea of a 'lostB file' that lives on, and *may* not be an error. Rare and perverse,C yes, but not an error in ODS-2. Since COE looks like it is going tol? give us a file reference count, can the ref count of 2^N-1 mean ' that we know it's lost, leave it alone?t  F > The first link to a file is referred to as the ''primary link,'' andB > is distinguished by having the directory ID and name of the linkD > stored in the file header. Additional links will be either aliasesE > or hard links, depending on an attribute of the volume on which theMF > file resides. All links on a volume must represent files on the same	 > volume.g  C > The essential difference between hard links and aliases is in theb> > effect of a delete operation. What is usually referred to asD > deleting a file is in essence deleting a link to that file. A fileE > is actually deleted when the primary link and all hard links to thecA > file are deleted. If a file has a primary link and alias links,f? > deleting the primary link deletes the file, leaving the aliasuB > entries.  Attempting to access a file through an alias link to a3 > deleted file results in a ''no such file'' error.r  E Well, this tells us what we have now, as long as no one does anythingnD interesting :) What they don't say is what happens if you have 'hardF links' and delete an entry, or, if you think about it, what happens if you delete an alias.  < This is looking just like what I asked for in 82 at DECUS...  C > An important related consideration is disk quota. On OpenVMS, thelA > size of each file is charged to the file owner's disk quota. IfaD > other users create hard links to a file, they are not charged diskE > quota. The owner may delete any links to the file in directories hetD > can access, while hard links in other user's directories may causeD > the file to be retained; the owner will continue to be charged for > its quota.  # I'll reserve this space for Bill ;)a   -- y< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 18:48:38 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e: Subject: RE: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !, Message-ID: <99at26$301p$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54B7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,.  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes: |> > -----Original Message----- 5 |> > From: Robert de Boer [mailto:r.e.deboer@kpn.com]. |>  C |> > An interesting fact that "several third-party implementations w |> > of DECnet onoC |> > other platforms" have exist or even are existing, but are you   |> > sure aboute |> > that fact?l |>  I |> There is at least one independent implementation for linux.  One couldaG |> assume that if they can get the documentation, so can somebody else.d  C Phase IV.  Prior to Phase IV there is no free implementation of any D DECNET protocol package.  If anyone knows otherwise, I would love to7 hear about it.  I have some machines that could use it.I  E Oh yeah, and DECNET isn't even free from Compaq, is it??  I am fairly F certain it is a separately licensed and priced layered product and has# has been since at least the PDP-11.t   bill       -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   f   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 18:45:41 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !, Message-ID: <99assl$301p$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  H In article <y4k85j88ip.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J  Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |> rB |> > I'll admit I could have been wrong.  I just remembered seeingF |> > somewhere that the reason it took so long to get even rudimentaryG |> > DECNET into Linux was becuase DECNET was un-published, proprietaryoH |> > DEC property and had to be "clean room" reverse engineered.  I knowH |> > that I have never seen any DECNET code or specs published anywhere. |> yH |> All of DECnet-IV's specifications were easily available from DEC at aJ |> very reasonable price - so reasonable that the place I used to work forP |> (a university institute running a 780 to service ~100 users intially) bought ' |> them without a really pressing need.w  I I said I found Phase IV mentioned on the Web.  I could find no mention ofCH anything earlier being publicly available.  Doesn't mean it wasn't, just, means it wasn't as available as TCPIP specs.   |> uJ |> > |>                                     There were several third-partyJ |> > |> implementations of DECnet on other platforms (I recall at least on |> > |> Sun and Macintosh).  |> > IH |> > I remmember the Sun one, but I thought that was a licensed product. |> >> |> Sure, somebody did the work, so they wanted money for it...  A There are lot's of things available for Unix including networking C packages that are free.  Sun gives TCPIP for free with all of theiroC systems.  DECNET is a separate product that costs additional money.e   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 18:51:25 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !, Message-ID: <99at7d$301p$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <21MAR01.16595763@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>,.  Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> writes: |>   |> According to the VMS faq: |> oE |>   DOC9.   Where is documentation on the DECnet Phase IV protocols?eA |>   ------------------------------------------------------------a |>  8 |>   Specifications for DECnet Phase IV can be found at: |> vD |>       http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECnet/PhaseIV/index.html |> ,4 |> Of course, gatekeeper.dec.com doesn't respond :-(  J Again, this is Phase IV.  I said that I knew Phase IV was freely availableH and Linux is working on a free implementation (well, as free as anythingL with the Gnu Public Virus can be). Show me one place with the spec or a free- implementation of DECNET prior to Phase IV.  o   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 18:54:00 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !, Message-ID: <99atc8$301p$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <87zoef9krh.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, /  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  |>   |> uC |> BTW, the only 'cost' to doing you own DECnet was that you had tonA |> acknoledge that it was the DECnet orotocols, deleloped by DEC.-  B And yet, no one did free implementation until Linux and Phase IV!!   bill   -- 1J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:07:41 GMTC2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman): Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !/ Message-ID: <1_6u6.15$fB6.370@news.cpqcorp.net>   ` In article <99assl$301p$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:J :I said I found Phase IV mentioned on the Web.  I could find no mention ofI :anything earlier being publicly available.  Doesn't mean it wasn't, juste- :means it wasn't as available as TCPIP specs.   J   The predecessor of DECnet Phase IV was DECnet Phase III, and that dates F   back to (as it was then known) VAX/VMS V3.4, which shipped in 1983. F   (I do not know off-hand what was available for DECnet documentation    from seventeen years ago.)  B :There are lot's of things available for Unix including networkingD :packages that are free.  Sun gives TCPIP for free with all of theirD :systems.  DECNET is a separate product that costs additional money.  D   Interesting.  Most every OpenVMS systems ships with a DECnet and aB   TCP/IP Services license -- mostly via the NET-APP-SUP license...  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:16:36 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman): Subject: RE: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !/ Message-ID: <o67u6.17$fB6.370@news.cpqcorp.net>5  ` In article <99at26$301p$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:D :Phase IV.  Prior to Phase IV there is no free implementation of anyE :DECNET protocol package.  If anyone knows otherwise, I would love toa8 :hear about it.  I have some machines that could use it.  I   One of the central reasons for DECnet Phase IV was its area routing andeI   node addressing capabilities, and its ability to support Ethernet.  ThebE   DECnet Phase I implementation dates back to 1976, Phase II to 1978,bI   Phase III to 1980, Phase IV to 1982, and Phase V was announced in 1987./  J   DECnet Phase IV is cross-compatible with DECnet Phase III, and a DECnet 6   Phase III node can communicate with a Phase IV node.  F :Oh yeah, and DECNET isn't even free from Compaq, is it??  I am fairlyG :certain it is a separately licensed and priced layered product and hase$ :has been since at least the PDP-11.  D   DECnet is certainly available separately, and it is also normally I   included with the purchase of the base OpenVMS system license included a   with a new system.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:31:52 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !3 Message-ID: <Ap5ufxkuaXfC@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ` In article <99af7k$2pl0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  J > Given this, if it were in fact freely avaialble, why would it have takenI > more than a decade for the first non-commercial DECNET for unix to showr/ > up and that still in a very incomplete form??t  , Some people like to get paid for their work.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying1   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:36:04 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>n: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !) Message-ID: <3AB902A3.BCA024A1@gtech.com>s   Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > A quick search of the web showed numerous comments that the Spec forE > DECNET Phase IV is publicly available.  I see no mention in any docdD > found about previous versions.  Is it possible that DEC was not as# > generous with previous versions??t  G I think the most likely reason that no pre Phase IV specs are availablenG on the web is the fact that Phase IV replaced Phase III 10 years before  the web was invented !  G There are not much point in putting Phase III specs on the web, becausetF nobody (except maybe networking historians) would be interested in it.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:38:59 +0100f= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> : Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !) Message-ID: <3AB90353.177E74C6@gtech.com>e   Bill Gunshannon wrote:? > I'll admit I could have been wrong.  I just remembered seeingeC > somewhere that the reason it took so long to get even rudimentarysD > DECNET into Linux was becuase DECNET was un-published, proprietaryE > DEC property and had to be "clean room" reverse engineered.  I know E > that I have never seen any DECNET code or specs published anywhere.|  B Anyone sligthly familiar with WWW and VMS/DECnet should be able to* find the Phase IV specs on WWW in minutes.  ' (if someone has not found them then tryr< http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECnet/PhaseIV/index.html)  A I am sure the Linux/DECnet people were able to find. But the Unix G world is traditional IP centric and maybe the interest for Linux/DECnet81 was not sufficient to supporta rapid development.i  i Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:42:31 +0100r" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !' Message-ID: <99b0ce$o1$1@news.IAEhv.nl>a  K We still use DECnet on AIX (unix for IBM's RS/6000) and have used DECnet onEA a unix implementation for the Motorola systems sold by Honeywell.s* At home I have DECnet for linux installed.  $ All examples implement phase IV BTW.  
 Hans Vlems  - Christopher Smith heeft geschreven in berichtkC <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54B7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>...t >> -----Original Message-----p3 >> From: Robert de Boer [mailto:r.e.deboer@kpn.com]  >p@ >> An interesting fact that "several third-party implementations >> of DECnet onh@ >> other platforms" have exist or even are existing, but are you
 >> sure about 
 >> that fact?y >nG >There is at least one independent implementation for linux.  One couldlE >assume that if they can get the documentation, so can somebody else.e >r	 >Regards,, >p >Chris >n" >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, ILn >o >/usr/bin/perl -e 's@ >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' >  >k   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:52:17 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman): Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !/ Message-ID: <RD7u6.20$fB6.386@news.cpqcorp.net>r  ` In article <99atc8$301p$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  C :And yet, no one did free implementation until Linux and Phase IV!!a  I   Linux well post-dates Phase III, making Phase IV the obvious target fori3   any source code development -- free or otherwise.V  G   Educational and hobbyist sites can potentially provide pools of laboroH   suitable for free implementations, but this development model does notK   necessarily interest commercial "producer" entities.  Both non-commercialsH   and commercial consumer "entities" clearly and obviously often have anI   interest in acquiring access to freely-available source code.  But that-G   a portable DECnet was not freely available likely involves commercial G   interests of the organizations offering DECnet implementations.  (Ki,.F   for instance, has been porting a DECnet stack around for many years,   and selling the results.)t  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:43:19 +0100f= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>a: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !) Message-ID: <3AB90457.F9D0A62A@gtech.com>r   Bill Gunshannon wrote:N > In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54B7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,0 >  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:! > |> > -----Original Message-----t7 > |> > From: Robert de Boer [mailto:r.e.deboer@kpn.com]e > |>D > |> > An interesting fact that "several third-party implementations > |> > of DECnet onhD > |> > other platforms" have exist or even are existing, but are you > |> > sure about  > |> > that fact?  > |>K > |> There is at least one independent implementation for linux.  One could I > |> assume that if they can get the documentation, so can somebody else.s > E > Phase IV.  Prior to Phase IV there is no free implementation of anypF > DECNET protocol package.  If anyone knows otherwise, I would love to9 > hear about it.  I have some machines that could use it.l   ????  C Phase IV replaced Phase III something almost 20 years ago (18 yearsl	 accordingn to the specs on WWW).e  6 What systems do you have that needs DECnet phase III ?   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 15:46:27 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)d: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !3 Message-ID: <Y74g23baJxLC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <KC5u6.163323$Z2.2016886@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:: > "Dave Greenwood" <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in message. > news:21MAR01.16595763@feda01.fed.ornl.gov... >>...o >> According to the VMS faq: >>E >>   DOC9.   Where is documentation on the DECnet Phase IV protocols?tA >>   ------------------------------------------------------------u >>8 >>   Specifications for DECnet Phase IV can be found at: >>D >>       http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECnet/PhaseIV/index.html >>4 >> Of course, gatekeeper.dec.com doesn't respond :-( >>  I Both http://gatekeeper.dec.com and ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com responds from 6 Encompasserve.  That seems to indicate they are alive.   -John- WB8TYW@QSL.NETWORK Personal Opinion Only-   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 21:00:57 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)C: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !+ Message-ID: <99b4q9$1fu$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>B  / In article <RD7u6.20$fB6.386@news.cpqcorp.net>,.5  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:e |> > |> -L |>   Linux well post-dates Phase III, making Phase IV the obvious target for6 |>   any source code development -- free or otherwise.  B So I learned something else.  I thought Phase IV was more current.A Does this mean that what is built into Ultrix-11 and Ultrix-32 istA in fact Phase IV??  What about in things like RSTS??  If it's allo? Phase IV, then I assume it is going to be easier than I thoughtm1 to link different machines together using DECNET.r   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 21:13:23 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !+ Message-ID: <99b5hj$1fu$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>   ) In article <3AB90457.F9D0A62A@gtech.com>,.@  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: |> d9 |> What systems do you have that needs DECnet phase III ?   ? Apparently, none.  I thought Phase IV refered to something muchB newer than that.   bill   -- CJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:58:06 GMTd2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman): Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !/ Message-ID: <Ot9u6.26$fB6.752@news.cpqcorp.net>e  _ In article <99b4q9$1fu$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:e0 :In article <RD7u6.20$fB6.386@news.cpqcorp.net>,6 : hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: :|>  :|> M :|>   Linux well post-dates Phase III, making Phase IV the obvious target for 7 :|>   any source code development -- free or otherwise.r :yC :So I learned something else.  I thought Phase IV was more current.tB :Does this mean that what is built into Ultrix-11 and Ultrix-32 isB :in fact Phase IV??  What about in things like RSTS??  If it's all@ :Phase IV, then I assume it is going to be easier than I thought2 :to link different machines together using DECNET.  D   A DECnet Phase III node is fully compatible with a DECnet Phase IVC   node, and any DECnet Phase IV implementation is required (by the  F   architecture) to successfully connect and communicate with a DECnet C   Phase III node.  Phase V has similar requirements with Phase IV, hB   though Phase V and Phase III nodes would very likely require an 2   intermediate Phase IV system for communications.  A   Both DECnet Phase IV and Phase V were available for VAX ULTRIX. A   (VAX ULTRIX was also known as ULTRIX-32, and the PDP-11 version E   was often known as ULTRIX-11 after the release of the VAX version.)h  D   Donno off-hand which DECnet phase was available with DECnet/ULTRIXE   for ULTRIX-11, that platform was retired back circa 1987 -- AFAIK,  F   BSD2.10 and similar incorporated at least some of the old ULTRIX-11    code base.  E   AFAIK, RSTS had at least DECnet Phase IV available -- most anythingcF   that was active and seeing DECnet development after 1982 would tend "   to have DECnet Phase IV support.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:36:38 GMTe5 From: danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook)c: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !- Message-ID: <slrn9bibie.s1n.danco@pebble.org>   O On 21 Mar 2001 21:00:57 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:P  C >So I learned something else.  I thought Phase IV was more current.nB >Does this mean that what is built into Ultrix-11 and Ultrix-32 isB >in fact Phase IV??  What about in things like RSTS??  If it's all@ >Phase IV, then I assume it is going to be easier than I thought2 >to link different machines together using DECNET.  C Phase IV is ancient.  It's definately in current versions of RSTS/E @ and even older versions of RSTS/E.  I'm probably wrong about the? exact version, but didn't Phase IV first get into RSTS/E in theoA RSTS/E V7.x (early '80s) time frame?  RSTS/E is at something likec? version 10.x now, isn't it?  Our last RSTS/E machine (an 11/84)pB has basically been turned off for the last decade.  It's going out the door any moment now...   - Dan    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:39:51 GMT 5 From: danco@cx48228-c.escnd1.sdca.home.com (Dan Cook)s: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !- Message-ID: <slrn9bibog.s1n.danco@pebble.org>.  B On Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:43:19 +0100, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:n  D >Phase IV replaced Phase III something almost 20 years ago (18 years  >according to the specs on WWW). >07 >What systems do you have that needs DECnet phase III ?f  ! He "needs" it to spread FUD.  :-(p   - Danr   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Mar 2001 06:01:14 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !- Message-ID: <878zly7ped.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:c  C > There are lot's of things available for Unix including networkingaE > packages that are free.  Sun gives TCPIP for free with all of their E > systems.  DECNET is a separate product that costs additional money..  < How much did BSD or IP cost in 80 Bill? For non edu sites...   Don't forget Ma'Bell BTW...o   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda..@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:56:33 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>E: Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ?  Not at all !, Message-ID: <3AB95BD1.29076B9F@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > + > In article <3AB90457.F9D0A62A@gtech.com>, B >  Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes: > |>; > |> What systems do you have that needs DECnet phase III ?f > A > Apparently, none.  I thought Phase IV refered to something much2 > newer than that. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  ? You'll get a reward for the most uninformed but honest sysadminy posting to this NG.c   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:30:56 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ? Not at all !t3 Message-ID: <AjW7ZQ+vLfns@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  k In article <OF557991DC.5F6460DB-ON80256A16.004FC0C0@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:  > B > It's probably more the case that nobody publishes it because theG > documentation and standards are long and go down to great detail.  IP G > documentation on the other hand is perhaps not quite so detailed.....E  6 Which is why its soooooo easy to write to the FTP RFP.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationa= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupuE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:03:54 -0500-  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet a proprietary protocol ? Not at all !-5 Message-ID: <1010321174604.3712A-100000@Ives.egh.com>-  & On 21 Mar 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  1 > In article <RD7u6.20$fB6.386@news.cpqcorp.net>,m7 >  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:4 > |> - > |> rN > |>   Linux well post-dates Phase III, making Phase IV the obvious target for8 > |>   any source code development -- free or otherwise. > D > So I learned something else.  I thought Phase IV was more current.C > Does this mean that what is built into Ultrix-11 and Ultrix-32 is C > in fact Phase IV??  What about in things like RSTS??  If it's all A > Phase IV, then I assume it is going to be easier than I thoughta3 > to link different machines together using DECNET.o >  > bill  D Don't know about Ultrix, but RSTS/E is definitely Phase IV, at leastD as of RSTS/E V9.6.  I'm not sure when they upgraded.  Ph IV requiresB more memory than Ph III, at least if you are a router, so that mayC be an issue for small memory systems.  Certainly isn't an issue for.B any system capable of running Linux.  Ph III can talk to Ph IV, soB having a Ph III end-node in a Ph IV network is no problem.  (SinceD Ph V can speak Ph IV protocols, maybe it can also work with a Ph III3 end-node, but I have never heard of it being done.)c  ? DECnet/E (RSTS/E Decnet) is a layered product, and shipped withn? a set of DECnet protocol documentation, as well as the DECnet/E 1 specific docs.  I have at least 2 sets somewhere.b   -- v John Santos. Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 20:26:36 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)aB Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS+ Message-ID: <99b2ps$1fu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>n  & In article <3AB8D402.ABD2255@uml.edu>,.  Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> writes: |> Christopher Smith wrote:  |> > - |> >& |> > rm -f `find . -name foo\* -print` |> > :J |> Pardon my getting off into Unix-ism's; I find my experience as detailed/ |> below to be useful (like VMS; dislike Unix).o |> aK |> I tried the command above on my Unix box (saying to myself, Why didn't I  |> think of that?).v  9 My first question would be, "Why did you think of this??"e  aJ |>                  I replaced -f  with -i purposely to stop as soon as itG |> found the first file.  I experimented by first performing just the  a |> find . -name foo\ -printIK |> so I would know what I should be finding (was also trying to shorten the|< |> find command a little bit by leaving off some arguments).  > Shortening the command is not of much use if you leave off the) parameters that make it do what you want.k   |> eE |> This seemed to work as expected when I was far down in a directorypJ |> tree.  The find command rapidly found what I wanted, and worked OK when* |> I embedded it inside the rm -i command.  F Interesting terminology.  I've never "embeded" one command in another.   |> -; |> But if I use it in a way like I would in real practice,    # But you didn't, more on this later.C  I |>                                                         sitting at thehG |> head of a file system, and looking for a huge bunch of ancient fileseK |> which I want to delete, the command performs badly in 2 ways.  First, itlI |> runs through the find command for the entire disk, before it tries thea
 |> first rm; a  @ Which is exactly what you told it to do, so what's the problem??  ( |>            this takes a lot of time.   E Depending on the size of the tree being searched, this could be true.   iF |>                                      Secondly, if it finds too manyG |> files of the desired name, it fails entirely, with the error messageoH |> "arg list too long".  (I think the magic number is 1000, and I do not, |> know how to change that default on Unix.)  I No magic number, I just tested it on FreeBSD and Linux and the limit mustnJ be higher than 3028.  But that is beside the fact.  It didn't work because you did it wrong.    The example I gave before:#    find . -type f -exec rm -i {} \;J! will do what you are looking for."   Your command above said::    Make a list of every file in the tree below this point.     Then+        Pass that list to the rm -i command.u  9 My command says starting at my current point in the tree,s"   find a file and pass it to rm -i$     repeat until all files are gone.  @ That's the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong.     bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:06:25 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)tY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgram", Message-ID: <99au3h$301p$7@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <87wv9j816o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, /  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:e6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |> oG |> > Maybe you didn't, but the general gist of the thread here has been H |> > that everything is sipler on VMS as compared to Unix.  I can remove@ |> > the tree with two commands.  No 50-100 line shell script is |> > necessary.- |>  H |> In ANY case? Even if it had hard linked cycles built in to it? If youJ |> start within one of those cycles? I think you will be in for a suprise. |> Or several perhaps...  B And here we go changing the rules in the middle of the game again.D So, how does VMS handle hard links??  Oh wait, VMS doesn't even have them (yet).o   bill   -- FJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:29:00 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)iY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalPrograme3 Message-ID: <LnUYrFRN3iu9@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  ` In article <99akc8$2s5g$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > D > Maybe you didn't, but the general gist of the thread here has beenE > that everything is sipler on VMS as compared to Unix.  I can removesH > the tree with two commands.  No 50-100 line shell script is necessary.  H OK, so on VMS it's a little harder to shoot yourself in the foot.  Isn't that the point?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouppE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:31:18 -0600j+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> Y Subject: RE: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramZL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54BF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]  @ > |> In ANY case? Even if it had hard linked cycles built in to  > it? If you> > |> start within one of those cycles? I think you will be in  > for a suprise. > |> Or several perhaps...  D > And here we go changing the rules in the middle of the game again.F > So, how does VMS handle hard links??  Oh wait, VMS doesn't even have
 > them (yet).d  B Well, actually, I think that last I heard there was an interestingH side-issue of ODS-2 design that allows more than one directory entry perK file.  It was simply that you required third-party software (perhaps DFU, I ' don't remember) to do anything with it.1   Regards,   ChrisT  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerl Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");o 'e   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:44:00 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)>Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalPrograma3 Message-ID: <MOHG9fHouhvb@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  ` In article <99au3h$301p$7@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > D > And here we go changing the rules in the middle of the game again.F > So, how does VMS handle hard links??  Oh wait, VMS doesn't even have
 > them (yet).u  C VMS has ahd aliaes for years.  In most respectcs equivalent to hardeG links.  And the issue at hand is handled very well, because they're notv7 exactly hard links (don't share all the same problems).t  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation-= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupuE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying?   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:28:01 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)sY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS     EducationalProgramh3 Message-ID: <sY5VbK7DjIc9@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ` In article <99ak3c$2s5g$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > J > And this differs on VMS from Unix in what way??  Surely you don't expectK > a program that manipulates hardware on an IBM390 to be easily portable tot > some other system either??  A    Why not?  At least if every UNIX implements ioctl, fstat, and a@    major and minor device numebrs why should they all have to be+    so completely different on a tape drive?r  E > Sounds like a VMS problem to me.  Why did they choose a proprietaryqF > and expensive API when there were cheaper and even free alternatives > available??     E You're throwing HP-UX, IRIX, AIX, ULTRIX, and all those other UNIX in B the boat with VMS.  They all did X11 windows with the Motif windowD manager, only Sun was the late comer.  In the days of "open systems"< hype why should we go with the one vendor who was different?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation3= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingg   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:51:16 -0600I% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>eH Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS  ...)' Message-ID: <3AB976B4.9251FC6E@isd.net>o   Bob Koehler wrote: > j > In article <009F9582.7EE9DFDC.3@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>, Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes: > >n# > > Oh, bravo, that's the inelegant  >   > Define "elegant".  I dare you. > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationo? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupeG >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying/     Elegant:  Written by me ;-)t   -- s Keith Brown  kbrown780@isd.net,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:06:25 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>DV Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram), Message-ID: <3AB925E1.1C7BA213@infopuls.com>   Brian Wheeler wrote: > 8 > In article <20010319235152.C2459@mozart.infopuls.com>,5 >         Brass Christof <brass@infopuls.com> writes:VF > > On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 09:27:59AM -0600, Christopher Smith wrote:! > >> > -----Original Message------7 > >> > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]  > >> > >> > Christopher Smith wrote:- > >>K > >> > > Softwindows, WABI, Wine, BOCHS, .... you tell me -- why isn't Unix-& > >> > > implementing the windows API? > >>  > >> > > Seems to me that it is. > >>< > >> > Yup, it is, someway. Could you tell me what BOCHS is? > >>P > >> BOCHS is kind of a different approach -- it's a "DOS emulator" ... actuallyO > >> more of a "wintel" emulator.  I've heard tales of it booting OS/2, windowshO > >> 95, and linux, and actually running to an extent, though I'm not sure what  > >> extent. > >?  > > Then it's similar to VMware. > O > No.  VMware lets the CPU run most of the instructions natively, just trappinguL > those which are required to maintain the virtual machine.  Bochs is a fullH > emulator for the x86, more inline with VICE (an emulator for the C64).   Yup. Learned that in between.V  1 > > Can I conlude that it's less than satisfying?0 >  > You might...or might not.t   I do.c  , > > WINE requires some sort of Windows also. > J > No, it does not.  It is a reimplementation of windows.  Original windowsH > code is only required if you're emulating a windows binary....and only, > then if the WINE libraries are incomplete.  @ Yup. Learned that in between. What do you mean with "emulating a? windows binary"? Are talking about a genuine M$ tool that comes9 with Windoze like the CLI?   > > AFAIK from a sound PR event1J > > organised by SUN to promote Solaris/386 you even have to buy a WindowsH > > licence - though I'm not sure about this because this was about 1990I > > or even earlier. One of the best technical PR events I ever met. OnlyhM > > a few SUN people but highly qualified, sound answers, very good concepts.- > > Alas UNIX crap ... > , > WABI required a windows license, not Wine.  ; Okay then - as far as I understood the concept is the same:l@ offering the Windoze API on the host platform. Maybe the licence5 requirement comes from a contract between SUN and M$.    > Brianr   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 19:03:41 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)lY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pru, Message-ID: <99atud$301p$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>  H In article <y4snk7rp10.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J  Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:6 |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: |>  H |> > Does DCL do multiword commands??  "SHOW" is the command on VMS and + |> > everything that follows are options.    |> 0I |> Nope. Just shows how much you know about the workings of DCL's command: |> parsing.   > Are you saying that [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXE is not the SHOW command??   $ help show    SHOW  D      Displays information about the current status of a process, the&      system, or devices in the system.        Formati          SHOW  optiony     E Looks like help thinks everything after the VERB "SHOW" is an option.t    % |>           Do a VERB SHOW sometime.    $ verb showaF %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling  \VERB\s $     And what was it supposed to do??   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Mar 2001 14:45:37 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)eY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Prg3 Message-ID: <baV2O6gEZ0KK@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  ` In article <99atud$301p$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > @ > Are you saying that [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXE is not the SHOW command??  F True.  SHOW CLUSTER, SHOW SYMBOL, and many other SHOW commands are not in SHOW.EXE.  
 > $ verb show.H > %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling	 >  \VERB\- > $  > " > And what was it supposed to do?? >   F Show that you don't understand VMS, yet you keep claiming UNIX is it's equivalent.f  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation-= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupSE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyinga   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:57:33 -0500a7 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com>fY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr-2 Message-ID: <wAa5OoIKuGunzUf69a4scLMlmFwQ@4ax.com>  < On 21 Mar 2001 19:03:41 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  I >In article <y4snk7rp10.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,uK > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes: 7 >|> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:f >|> I >|> > Does DCL do multiword commands??  "SHOW" is the command on VMS and  , >|> > everything that follows are options.   >|> J >|> Nope. Just shows how much you know about the workings of DCL's command
 >|> parsing. S >E? >Are you saying that [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXE is not the SHOW command??m >  >$ help show >e >SHOWy >aE >     Displays information about the current status of a process, then' >     system, or devices in the system.e >  >     Format >h >       SHOW  option >   F >Looks like help thinks everything after the VERB "SHOW" is an option. >n >e& >|>           Do a VERB SHOW sometime. >w >$ verb showG >%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spellingD > \VERB\ >$ e > ! >And what was it supposed to do??f >C >billt  A If you look on the Freeware CD, there is a VERB utility that willa5 allow you to see the Command Language Definition of a = command.  I would post the output for SHOW here, but it's 859- lines long!-   David R. Beatty0   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 20:57:07 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)wY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Pr5+ Message-ID: <99b4j3$1fu$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>.  2 In article <wAa5OoIKuGunzUf69a4scLMlmFwQ@4ax.com>,:  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:? |> On 21 Mar 2001 19:03:41 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Billd |> Gunshannon) wrote:  |> |> >$ verb showiJ |> >%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling |> > \VERB\  |> >$  |> >$ |> >And what was it supposed to do?? |> d# |> If you look on the Freeware CD,    A So it's not a part of VMS??  And I thought this was all about all>A VMS systems having the same commands because of "standards".  :-)   E |>                                  there is a VERB utility that willd8 |> allow you to see the Command Language Definition of a@ |> command.  I would post the output for SHOW here, but it's 859 |> lines long!  A No need, someone else already explained that SHOW is not an image B (although I do have a SHOW.EXE) and is actually linked to numerous images and commands.   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:39:01 -0500   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS EducationalProgram) Prn5 Message-ID: <1010321184529.3712C-100000@Ives.egh.com>s  & On 21 Mar 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  8 > In article <1010321054351.21646A-100000@Ives.egh.com>,% >  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:, > |> t > |> pG > |> Actually, I think this is not really a shell problem as much as itsJ > |> is a shell vocabulary problem.  The shell doesn't force "show system"" > |> to be "ps" (process status?)  > / > The shell doesn't force anything.  Does DCL??i  0 That was my point.  I was defending Unix shells.  C DCL does define the commands as well as the structure.  "Directory" D as the command for listing file names is part of the DCL definition,> as is "copy" for copying files and "delete" for removing them.B Because the commands are part of the DCL definition, orthogonality7 and consistency of qualifiers ("switches") is enforced.e  > Of course, you can extend the command set (see "set command"),8 and define symbols as synonyms for any command you want.= (i.e. ls == "directory/size/date/owner" and then you can typem ls to get your listings.)t  H > |>                              or "directory" to be "ls" (list files? > |> then why isn't it "lf"  > G > For the same reson it isn't "dir". "ls" was thet name the originators 
 > decided on.o  # so it was arbitrary and capricious.-  & > |>                        or "lst"?) > C > Other than the reason given above, and considering the reason foriC > the terse command set in the first place, the extra letter has nod > advantage.  ? That's why I define "dj" (John's directory) to be the directoryG command I use most often...f   > |> lK > |> (I'm not sure, but I think that having multiword commands, like "show eC > |> system", would be difficult to implement in most Unix shells, . > E > Does DCL do multiword commands??  "SHOW" is the command on VMS and eD > everything that follows are options.  Why would you expect Unix toC > be any different??  How hard would it be to implement under DCL??t  ? Yes.  Command processing and dispatching is done by DCL.  It isc@ perfectly possible (and in fact is the case) that different SHOW< commands are processed by different utilities.  For example,A SHOW ACCOUNTING, SHOW QUEUE, SHOW PROCESS and many others are all H handled by different programs, and some SHOW commands (SHOW WORKING_SET,@ SHOW SYMBOL, SHOW DEFAULT) are handled internally by DCL (like aD Unix shell built-in function)  The command definition language (CLD)A defines the syntax and tells DCL which image to invoke to executeG? the command.  There doesn't need to be (and isn't) a monolithicv? "show.exe" image to execute them all, or even to parse them anddA dispatch to appropriate routines.  It is extensible.  You can add B new show commands or new qualifiers or syntax to existing commands1 e.g. SHOW QUEUE without touching SHOW ACCOUNTING.@   > O > |>                                                                since they sO > |> seem to treat the first token as either a built-in command or the name of rK > |> a program to execute.  Unless all the "show" commands were executed bys > |> a single program, etc.) > 3 > You mean like they are on VMS??  [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXEe  A As I just said, this is not true.  SHOW.EXE only executes some ofn the simpler SHOW commands.   > |> wJ > |> You could, if you were twisted enough, re-write all the VMS utilitiesF > |> and their .CLD files to use an equally arcane set of commands and > |> qualifiers.   > G > You could, if you were twisted enough, re-write all the Unix commands H > to use an equally verbose set of commands and qualifiers.  As a matterG > of fact, many of the more recent incantations do use more verbose andeH > human readable options.  And re-writting the commands themselves wouldI > be trivial.  "mv /bin/ls /bin/directory" fixes that one and a judiciousmK > use of links (ie. "ln directory dir", etc) gives you abbreviated commandsuH > as well.  Not that I would reccommend this approach, but it does show * > how easily customizable Unix actuall is.  E ... and then none of your scripts or customary commands would work on.A any other Unix system in the world, until you had renamed all then? programs on it to match your private standard.  Breaking every kE other shell script on those systems in the process.  Surely it makes  E more sense to define aliases in a login file that you can cart aroundoB with you.  Just stick them in .login (or is it .bashrc or .profileD or ...?)  (And make sure you get the syntax right for whatever shell> you are using, and export your environment variables using the appropriate method.)  F > |>              It's just that from day one, command consistency wasI > |> a design goal of DCL, but the unix shells had no design goals.  Theyt > |> just grew, randomly.l > < > Absurd, but then, most of the drivel against unix here is.F > First, the commands (ie. ls, ps, rm, ln, mv, etc.) are not a part ofA > the shell int he first place any more than SHOW is part of DCL.o  ( As I said (but you're wrong about SHOW).  D > Second, the design goals of Unix were clearly known (and have beenC > written about in numerous papers of the era) by the implementors.c  D The design goals were spelled out, including such things as the pipeC model (so output of one program could be used as input to another),lH the one module-one function idea, etc.  As far as I can tell, most unix J utilities meet these goals fairly well.  However, not much if any thought E was given to the actual choice of commands or to command consistency,dE or any usabilty issues except typing as few characters as possible.  h  @ DCL, designed 8 years later, did pay attention to human factors.  G > Third, they accomplished exactly what they were looking to do and dideI > this with far greater success than even they had originally envisioned.u  E Maybe so.  That doesn't mean there aren't gaping holes in the design.?  F > There is a good reason behind the terse command set and the numerousE > small utilities that make up Unix.  One of them is not specifically H > necessary any more, but has remained because the users are comfortableG > with it and it works.  But in line with the concept behind the second@H > part the system is totally customizable to meet the needs of the user.G > The machine should bend to the users needs, not the other way around.e  G I was just reading the man page for ls on my DEC Unix (V4.0d) system...e  A ls has about 25 switches to control the listing format, but thereU@ isn't a set of individual controls for the various items listed.F For example, you can't just list names, modification dates, and sizes.@ With "-l", you also get owner, group and protection code.  ThereA are lots of minor variations that look like what someone 30 yearsvE ago prefered to the default info, and it got built into the canonicalAB "ls" program.  For example, -g is the same as -l except it removesB the owner.  Since there are about 10 possible items, it would onlyB take about 10 switches to control them all individually.  Then youA could define aliases for the combinations you used most often... -   > |> -H > |> DCL is far from perfect (the quote-quote-quote-quote-quote syndrom,G > |> lack of sophisticated control structures, etc.) but most of us VMSr+ > |> users are used to its idiosyncracies.   >  > As is equally true for Unix.  B Well, I was hoping this thread would lead to a reasoned discussionB of the strengths and weaknesses of DCL vs. the sundry Unix shells,A suggestions for improvements, and methods to make life easier forD= those of us that have to live with both.  Instead it has justa@ generated another knee-jerk "there is only one way and those are the Unix ways" response.  F > |>                                       I'm sure "cat" and "ls" areE > |> second nature to anyone who has been forced to use Unix for more- > |> than a few months.  > @ > I have never seen anyone hold a gun to someone's head and make@ > them use Unix.  Most of the people I have known become totally  & Naw, I can always quit my job instead.  B > comfortable with Unix in a very short time.  let's look at where@ > I work now.  When i arrived, there was no Unix.  0, Zip. Nada.B > The first Unix box on campus was a DECStation on my desk, chosenC > because i was brought in here to network the campus and there are > > not a lot of networking tools for IBM 3270's or DEC VT100's.B > (A 4331 and a VAX were the Administrative and Academic computers > at that time.) > B > The IBM was the first to go and Administrative work was moved toE > a second VAX.  So, VMS was firmly entrenched and Unix was virtuallytB > non-existant.  The first Unix boxes in general use were 5 SUN3'sE > in the CS Department.  Shortly thereafter, the CS Department bought A > ~40 Sparcs.  Hmmm.  Why would people stop using VMS in favor ofyC > something as hard to use as Unix??  2 years later I joined the CSS  / Maybe the decision was economic, not technical?m  B > Department.  Within a year, the CS Department was independant in@ > it's use of the network. we had our own Email server, our own @ > WebServer, our own dial-up access for professors at home, etc.A > The rest of th campus still relied on a purely text based emailgC > system on the VAX (actually, it may have become an Alpha by then,wA > but it was VMS just the same.)  They had only text based dialupaA > access where we had support for subnets in the professors homesv5 > (this before the idea of an ISP was even known!!)  6 > And so on, and so on.a> > Nobody had any problem adapting.  Everyone changed willingly> > becuase they had the option not to as the VMS machine stayed> > there. (Actually, everyone didn't.  Two Professors still use > the VMS box for their mail.) > ? > And the rest of the campus??  They too have all but abandonedi@ > VMS.  The box is there, but use has dropped tot he point where> > I was told I will need to take it over shortly or it will beA > shut down completely. (We do still need it for COBOL and ORACLEA@ > for classes, however, the Prof who teaches databses is alreadyA > talking about dropping Oracle and using Postgres, which we havet@ > running on a Unix box within the department.  That leaves onlyB > COBOL.  hardly justification for continuing to run the machine.) >  >  > |> O- > |> The DCL commands are all English words, O > E > We've been through this already.  While english words are possible,oC > few experienced VMS people actually type out the whole word, thussE > choosing to use terms nearly as terse and obscure as those on Unix.a  D Except in scripts (command files), of course, where you should never abbreviate anything.  G > |>                                          whereas the Unix commands-( > |> usually look like random strings.   > B > Only to those who have not taken the time to learn the jargon ofB > their business.  How many people can understand what two doctorsF > talking shop to each other are saying??  Or two electrical engineers > discussing a circuit??  @ Jargon is not a virtue.  It is a necessity.  More jargon than is necessary is counterproductive.>  E > |>                                    Clearly, the DCL commands are A > |> easier for people who know English, but is it any benefit toe6 > |> use non-random strings for non-English speakers?  > A > As I have pointed out, it is trivial to make the Unix commands iA > English-like, or for that matter, German-like, or Spanish-like,d( > (within the limits of character sets).   -- m John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:13:42 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>tY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Proo) Message-ID: <3AB90B76.796774C0@gtech.com>\   Bill Gunshannon wrote:4 > In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>,< >  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:F > |> On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) > |> wrote:aO > |> >Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure on-= > |> >vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?0 > |>) > |> You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*.  > |>J > |> Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done inI > |> a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines,eG > |> probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is thenJ > |> key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks over > |> the years.S > I > And a 50-100 line "small (recursive) command procedure" is simpler than  > 4 >      "find . -type f -exec rm -f {} \; ; rm -rf *" >  > in what way??   + This thread has gone completely off track !i  H 1. The COM-file to delete a directrory tree is not 50-100 lines but 5-10 lines 6    (depending on how compact ones DCL coding style is)  F 2. I sincerely hope that noone has claimed that VMS DCL commands to doB    something in general are shorter (characters or lines) than the similaraF    tasks in a Unix shell. Such cases exist but usually it is the otherB    way around. The VMS DCL commands will typical be easier to readD    and understand than the Unix shell equivalent though. That is theA    whole point. You can easily determine if you prefer VMS DCL orsH    a Unix shell by deciding whether you like "DIRECTORY/SIZE/DATE/OWNER"    or "ls -l" most.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:59:35 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Prob, Message-ID: <3AB94067.F84FAF42@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 4 > In article <wAa5OoIKuGunzUf69a4scLMlmFwQ@4ax.com>,< >  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:A > |> On 21 Mar 2001 19:03:41 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bille > |> Gunshannon) wrote:d > |> > |> >$ verb showeL > |> >%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
 > |> > \VERB\a > |> >$i > |> >& > |> >And what was it supposed to do?? > |>$ > |> If you look on the Freeware CD, > C > So it's not a part of VMS??  And I thought this was all about allkC > VMS systems having the same commands because of "standards".  :-)  > G > |>                                  there is a VERB utility that wille: > |> allow you to see the Command Language Definition of aB > |> command.  I would post the output for SHOW here, but it's 859 > |> lines long! > C > No need, someone else already explained that SHOW is not an imagedD > (although I do have a SHOW.EXE) and is actually linked to numerous > images and commands. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  1 Sorry for shooting a dead horse (so to speak) ...a> As I said: sometimes people who don't understand the tools are: the reason why a tool isn't used properly and therefore is
 abolished.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:01:29 +0000,) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro , Message-ID: <3AB940D9.49D8D588@infopuls.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <99atud$301p$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > B > > Are you saying that [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXE is not the SHOW command?? > H > True.  SHOW CLUSTER, SHOW SYMBOL, and many other SHOW commands are not > in SHOW.EXE. >  > > $ verb showsJ > > %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling > >  \VERB\  > > $o > > $ > > And what was it supposed to do?? > >t > H > Show that you don't understand VMS, yet you keep claiming UNIX is it's
 > equivalent.i > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------A > Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationy? > NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group-G >                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replyingS  6 Please Bob, stop it. I already insulted Bill enough. I< personally think he is not the type of person who is able to9 change his mind because of reason. This isn't meant as ana insult!i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:12:16 +0000c) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>,Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro , Message-ID: <3AB94360.871B10C9@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > In article <0nbGN2dCuQfC@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s2 >  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e > |> In article <998rei$2091$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: : > |> > In article <wFwzVL1RVj1$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > |> >- > |> > When was unix ever sold to the masses?  > |>J > |> 1990's open system hype seen in almost every computer publication you > |> could get your hands on.i > L > What "computer publication" was targeted at the masses??  Even advertisingH > rags like Datamation and Byte are not intended for the general public.M > Oh, I guess there's Computer Shopper.  I wonder how much "open system hype"l > they ran?? > D > The masses didn't learn about Unix till Linux came around and most& > of them still don't know about Unix. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  > Don't twist history (and presence). There is a long history of: telling the companies "UNIX is open" (whatever that means)> implying a company could easily switch from one UNIX vendor to" another which in fact didn't work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:14:29 +0000s) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>nY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro , Message-ID: <3AB943E5.8EA78183@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 4 > In article <G7W3OjMzxo7TfaW0cHyNnUquOgut@4ax.com>,< >  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes:F > |> On 20 Mar 2001 18:25:35 GMT, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) > |> wrote:x > |>O > |> >Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to delete a directory structure ond= > |> >vms without having to run "DELETE *.*;*" over and over?H > |> > > |> >BrianL > |>) > |> You probably mean DELETE [...]*.*;*.e > |>J > |> Depends on how you define easy.  It's not trivial, but can be done inI > |> a fairly small (recursive) command procedure -- less than 100 lines, G > |> probably closer to 50 lines.  The F$SEARCH lexical function is thelJ > |> key here.  I've sure that utility has been written by many folks over > |> the years.d > I > And a 50-100 line "small (recursive) command procedure" is simpler thanO > 4 >      "find . -type f -exec rm -f {} \; ; rm -rf *" >  > in what way??  >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  & Why "find .-type f -exec rm -f {} \;"? Why not only "rm -rf *"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:18:14 +0000>) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>wY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pron, Message-ID: <3AB944C6.1B6075E9@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 4 > In article <5qq4Oo39s8ztBrGLJE=jNAHzuWQz@4ax.com>,< >  David Beatty <David.Beatty@sasSPAMITUPTHEZZZ.com> writes: > |>F > |> I never said it was easier nor simpler.  It's just not diffucult. > |> > |> > |> >M > |> >And a 50-100 line "small (recursive) command procedure" is simpler than" > |> >8 > |> >     "find . -type f -exec rm -f {} \; ; rm -rf *" > |> > > |> >in what way??i > D > Maybe you didn't, but the general gist of the thread here has beenE > that everything is sipler on VMS as compared to Unix.  I can removehH > the tree with two commands.  No 50-100 line shell script is necessary. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   Damed you are fucking right!!n@ UNIX is one of the system where you can blow out a whole disk in? a few seconds whithout beeing asked or having a simple catch tor= prevent this (and no way to recover besides a recent backup). ; Like vi where you can loose a couple of hours work with thew wrong keystroke.@ Great improvement. Did you ever think of how useful your example? might be? Is this your daily task whiping out a whole directoryl tree?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:20:58 +0000t) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>aY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pro , Message-ID: <3AB9456A.5F5E7B8A@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > / > In article <87wv9j816o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,s1 >  Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:s8 > |> bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > |>I > |> > Maybe you didn't, but the general gist of the thread here has beenrJ > |> > that everything is sipler on VMS as compared to Unix.  I can removeB > |> > the tree with two commands.  No 50-100 line shell script is > |> > necessary.n > |>J > |> In ANY case? Even if it had hard linked cycles built in to it? If youL > |> start within one of those cycles? I think you will be in for a suprise. > |> Or several perhaps... > D > And here we go changing the rules in the middle of the game again.F > So, how does VMS handle hard links??  Oh wait, VMS doesn't even have
 > them (yet).a >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  < This is typical UNIX philosophy: offer something handy which8 isn't thought through completely. In 80% it may work (or> sometimes not as expected) but in 20% there isn't any feasible	 solution.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:35:40 +0000.) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>hY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Proe, Message-ID: <3AB956EB.8158F3A7@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > N > In article <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54B5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>,0 >  Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> writes:! > |> > -----Original Message-----o7 > |> > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com]r > |>A > |> > But why the hell isn't it possible to simply pipe the find  > |> > result into rm? > |>M > |> It is possible to do, depending on your shell, of course, something likeu
 > |> this: > |>& > |> rm -f `find . -name foo\* -print` > |>2 > |> This will have the desired affect, I believe. > I > A more important question is why would you want to make "find" generateuI > output to pipe into "rm" when "find" is already capable of calling "rm" B > directly with the filenames as a parameter in the proper place??  6 Because this would allow using pipe as a general mean.< Unfortunately UNIX again breaks its own rules it pretends to live up to.n  M > |>                                                The simple answer for the.J > |> reason that you can't pipe things into rm is that rm doesn't read itsP > |> standard input looking for that kind of thing. :)  Why doesn't it?  I don'tQ > |> know.  Could be because they waited until they were about to fill a disk up, ) > |> and threw it together in a hurry. :)  > B > Right, and my VAXStation has no sound support because all of the > DEC engineers were deaf. :-) > H > Lots of Unix commands don't take parameter information from the stdin.6 > Usually because it makes no sense to do it that way.  ? Sorry? Where is the "UNIX is simple and the programs a small toi? be used like mosaic pieces" metaphore? Why do I have to learn ae@ different way to combine find and rm instead of using the highly applaused UNIX pipe system?f  A > Question: Can you pipe a list of filenames into DELETE on VMS??   @ It's not necessary because delete offers the necessary selection' criteria. VMS works fine without pipes.i   > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:36:39 +0000x) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Pron, Message-ID: <3AB95727.370BB82F@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----4 > > From: Christof Brass [mailto:brass@infopuls.com] > C > > Point 3 is completely wrong. BTW have you ever tried to compile C > > Maxwell, the text processor? Do that and come back and tell us!S@ > > And there is one additional thing wrong with point 3: beeing@ > > compatible with UNIX isn't a point in favour of Linux at all> > > because the Linux developers and users give a shit on thatD > > because they never ever think a second about UNIX which in their> > > opions is a crap, old, shitty and very expensive OS, which> > > exists in many incompatible flavours. Why would they care? > N > That's not the impression I get from most linux users -- which ones have youJ > been talking to? :)  I've even managed to get several very adamant linux; > fans interested in -- or at least appreciative of -- VMS.t > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrise > # > Christopher Smith, Perl DeveloperA > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");r > 'h  " Look into the Linux documentation.$ Listen to what Linux Thorvalds says.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:25:12 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>nY Subject: Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMSEducationalProgram) Prog , Message-ID: <3AB95478.8DA3FB9B@infopuls.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:h > @ > In article <OF81D50DDB.B612A269-ON85256A16.00546A54@acml.com>,$ >  <William_Bochnik@acml.com> wrote: > >eD > >I think the problem was, with the shell expansion and such of theD > >filenames, they ended up with an rm command that was too long forA > >the shell to handle, which is the source of the problem in thee > >first place.e > >o > H > I seem to be the only one pointing out that xargs is perfect for this. > < > It also allows you to have scripts that generate groups of > parameters to execute. >  > man xargs    [SNIP]  @ Yes, this will do the trick. But not a very elegant solution and@ sometimes not feasible if e.g. you need a result calculated over@ the whole range of files because the repeatedly executed program wouldn't save its state.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:01:54 GMTu2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)X Subject: Re: Eunice and DII COE (was: Re: A new question regarding COE and/or Unix & VMS/ Message-ID: <mx9u6.27$fB6.752@news.cpqcorp.net>h  _ In article <99b5ei$1fu$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes::> :Is there any reason why something akin to Eunice could not beA :used to meet the requirements of COE while leaving VMS untoucheds :underneath?  "   Yes, there are numerous reasons.  ; :Was there anything important that was missing from Eunice?t  E   Yes, there are many features that are missing from both Eunice and t;   from the version of POSIX that once shipped with OpenVMS.5  ) :Hmmm. Could you do a fork under Eunice??   B   A true full-context fork is not feasible without the help of theB   kernel, as it involves very specific requirements of the virtual   memory management system.>  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:42:54 -0600l% From: Keith Brown <kbrown780@isd.net>l Subject: Re: Good News for VMS' Message-ID: <3AB974BE.BEC02C26@isd.net>    William Hymen wrote: >   > I heard on the news today that% > the entire German Government dumpedo# > NT/2000 for security issues. Lets $ > hope they buy vms; instead of unix* > with 20 security apps laid on top of it.    G I saw a version of this news article that claimed the German governmentaH was concerned about backdoors into NT which the NSA had access to. ThereH was mention that they would not consider any OS sold by a US corporationG because of similar concerns.  It seemed they were leaning toward Linux.e- I'm not sure how accurate this may be though.w   -- i Keith Browna kbrown780@isd.neto   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:14:13 -0500R: From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccusker@Compaq.remove_me.com>& Subject: Re: HELP on License Requestor/ Message-ID: <UBau6.28$fB6.802@news.cpqcorp.net>r  A "Dominic Olivastro" <DOlivastro@ChiResearch.com> wrote in message  news:T94u6.16$3i3.301@client...mL > I keep posting questions about PW and Win 2K but no one answers.  Is there a 	 > strike?c ><  8 Nope, just busy getting the next release out the door...  J > I am having trouble getting  the license requestor to find licenses from myF > Windows 2000 client.  has anyone gotten this working?  Is there some trick.H > When I start the PC, I get the usual box from Lan Manager saying it isJ > searching for the license server.  This goes on for some time and then I get>- > a message saying the license was not found.o >' > My Setup:o > Windows 2000 > PW Client 7.2l >b   OK  	 > VAX VMSt > PW Server v5.0F  >m  I This could be a big part of the problem.  Support for Win2K clients isn't H available in this release.  So who knows if it'll work or not.  I don't.  F Can this client connect using server based licensing?  I'd verify that first,K just to be sure you've connectivity at the protocol level (I assume you areSD using TCP/IP? DECnet doesn't work on Win2K), and also at the NETBIOSG level.  Assuming all that is working, I suspect a NETMON trace would belI the next step to see what these guys are saying to each other.  You mighti nees0 to call the CSC to help you interpret the trace.   >n --
 Brad McCuskero# OpenVMS Advanced Server Engineeringn Compaq Computer Corporationd   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 23:53:50 EST1 From: byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer)e> Subject: HELP!!! Strange Problem With OpenVMS Porting Library.1 Message-ID: <EMzcBnuUi8Qv@cartman.ourservers.net>-   This is driving me nuts..:  G I'm working on updating the port of CVS v1.11 for OpenVMS utilizing thei? OpenVMS Porting Library so that Unix style file/directory namesmG (like config.h.in) are handled properly and I have one strange problem.:  = I've installed the porting library no problem.  I'm compilingeI wiht it properly (included the VMS_JACKETS.H file in all the modules) andX I'm linking properly.H  C The problem is, when I go to test it, if I'm logged into the SYSTEMOB account, everything works and it handles Unix file/directory names	 properly.r   But...  H If I'm in NON-SYSTEM account, it dosnen't handle the Unix file/directoryF names properly and I get errors on the file names.  Even if I run fromE an account that has ALL the privs (like a copy of the system account)- it won't work properly.-  L I don't have the VMS_JACKETS.EXE installed so I don't think that's a problemF and on a whim I installed it and got the same thing.  I have a logicalH VMS_JACKETS defined to point to the VMS_JACKETS.EXE shared library since= I have the porting library installed in a seperate directory.e  H I even linked with the non-shared library VMS_JACKETS.OLB and it did theB exact same thing so I don't think it's something specific with the shared library.-  E I ZIP'd up my sources etc and sent them to someone else and they haveiK had it work for them no problem without having to be in the SYSTEM account.mG So that tells me I MUST be doing something wrong somewhere or somethingB& I'm just missing in the release notes.  J I did define the logical VMS_FILENAME_CONTROLS just like the release notes' said and that didn't make a difference.   J It's really driving me nuts trying to figure this out and would appreciate any help with this.   J The system is an AlpaStation 500/333 with OpenVMS v7.2 with all the latest" public patches and DEC C v6.0-001.   -- >  @  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Robert Alan Byer | byer@mail.ourservers.net | ICQ #65926579 |@  +------------------+--------------------------+---------------+@  | Send an E-mail request to obtain a copy of my PGP key.      |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+@  | "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.  It is by |@  |  cans of cola the thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire   |@  |  shakes, the shakes become a warning.  It is by caffeine    |@  |  alone I set my mind in motion."                            |@  +-------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:49:25 -0500.2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)B Subject: Re: HELP!!! Strange Problem With OpenVMS Porting Library.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2203010149250001@user-2ive73l.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <EMzcBnuUi8Qv@cartman.ourservers.net>, byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer) wrote:s   > This is driving me nuts..n    J > If I'm in NON-SYSTEM account, it dosnen't handle the Unix file/directoryH > names properly and I get errors on the file names.  Even if I run fromG > an account that has ALL the privs (like a copy of the system account)x > it won't work properly.v  - You've got to post the actual error messages.   5 Also, see what HELP/MESSAGE says about your messages.e   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comt   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:57:04 GMTa2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman), Subject: Re: Info on low level driver access/ Message-ID: <4Q6u6.14$fB6.370@news.cpqcorp.net>e  \ In article <87g0g77zur.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:G :I want to get the interupt from the on chip console port. It is listedAD :in the ARM, but I can not find any info on how to be sure that some; :other code, like a kernel debugger, has already set it up.n  G   Oh, a chance to use one of my favorite questions: what are you up to?   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Mar 2001 05:05:38 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: Info on low level driver access- Message-ID: <87pufa7rz1.fsf@prep.synonet.com>w  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  > > In article <87g0g77zur.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi! > <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:   B > :I want to get the interupt from the on chip console port. It isC > listed :in the ARM, but I can not find any info on how to be sureIC > that some :other code, like a kernel debugger, has already set it> > up.   E >   Oh, a chance to use one of my favorite questions: what are you ups >   to?a   Oh, you asked...  G I want to get NTP on VMS to be the BEST. And to do it for zero dollars.?G Well, zero if you have a GPS/atomic clock lying around doing nothing :)e  F On each second, you get a TTL pulse. I want to drop that onto the chipB console and get the interupt, save the current clock, and possiblyF cycle counter and system state, togle the transmit line, then hand offI the a driver at lower IPL to hand the data out to the code. This can theneF do the NTP calcs at the systems leasure, but sould be capable of a few5 nSec acurracy relative to the reference clock pulses.   E So, how do I steal the console interupt in PAL mode? No, I don't want 8 to wait for the PAL code to hand it up the kernel level.   You did ask...   -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:53:18 GMT-( From: Mark Sterk <void@strong.sjello.nl>+ Subject: Re: One For the CI Cluster Experts@0 Message-ID: <3AB930C5.F733E259@strong.sjello.nl>   BrianNFO wrote:s > ! > >What do those PEA0 errors say?e > >- >  > Here's an error log entry... >   > NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VAX4$PEA0: > ( >        PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT > / >        LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X)>) >        LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 000000000404(X)) > 0 >        REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DA(X)* >        REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000434(X) > ! >        UCB$B_ERTCNT          32m> >                                        50. RETRIES REMAINING! >        UCB$B_ERTMAX          32 > >                                        50. RETRIES ALLOWABLE! >        UCB$W_ERRCNT        001D = >                                        29. ERRORS THIS UNITo! >        PPD$B_PORT            00p9 >                                        REMOTE NODE # 0. ! >        PPD$B_STATUS          00V! >        PPD$B_OPC             00S7 >                                        UNKNOWN OPCODE ! >        PPD$B_FLAGS           00c         -- kH Maybe a stupid suggestion but if you have a unterminated DSSI bus you'll get similar messages..    
 Greetings,
 Mark Sterk    F If you want to mail me non-spam messages, don't send it into the void,# send it to: mailto:strong@sjello.nlm   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:21:50 +0100r& From: Andreas Fassl <afassl@progis.de>8 Subject: Re: Open VMS Experience with Enterprise Storage) Message-ID: <3AB9378E.14A24C1E@progis.de>5  3 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. & --------------3AF7BE33FD557B8AFABD2539* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit8   Mike,p  M 2 years ago I was responsible head of VMS (team of 6 specialists). One of our4M jobs was the migration from "old-fashioned" host-based shadowed CI-storage tow EMC-SCSI-Storage.-  N Problem 1: EMC-SCSI has a major performance leak due to the lack of fast path,$ only available with V 7.2 and higherN Problem 2: SCSI-3 is implemented with several interpretations of the standard.M Setting up a SCSI-cluster will show several problems. For example booting one I node will cause lots of IO-error messages on the other node being up. Ande SCSI-polling is hell with EMC.L Problem 3: NEVER trust EMC with their "you don't need to know anything aboutF our boxes - we just deliver performance". This is bullsh**. It is veryK important to have as much information about the storage layout as possible. K Example: Most EMC boxes are configured with 36 GB disks. Most configurationkF are build with smaller partitions. They will show up as something likeM $1$dkaxxx. If you don't take intensive care about the location of every slicen6 in the box, you'll suffer serious performance impacts.  N If set up properly, EMC will be quite fast. But a configuration with HSGs willH outperform them. I recall values for a RDB unload/load with about 70.000C records/s! (Dual 8400 SCSI-Cluster with an EMC-3700 box inbetween).   C SRDF-mirroring will steal performance in the box, same goes for BCVe operations. F Having a closer look to host-based shadowing, You'll get more VMS-only advantages with Shadow sets.  K My recommandation goes to StorageWorks, especially because it is tuned verygN close to VMS. Another news thread shows a perfect example for typical problems occuring with EMC and VMS. - Something doesn't work& - VMS-engineering starts investigating& - EMC-engineering starts investigating< - Both return with "Must be a problem with -> other company"0 - Emergency meeting ... next investigation phase - Repeat  G Another thing I really hate with EMC is the unbelievable unprofessionaleK dial-up modem just lying on the floor beneath a $$$$$-expensive box. If thenN storage box is unhappy, it dials out, some time later the EMC technician rings# at the door and replaces something.s   regardse   Andreas-   Regards-   Andreas-   Mike Gray schrieb:   > Hi,: >3I > I am wondering what experiences you may have with Open VMS & EnterpriseDL > Storage (such as IBM Shark or EMC Symmetrix)? Can anyone offer any advice. >  > Mi  & --------------3AF7BE33FD557B8AFABD2539- Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;-  name="afassl.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit]3 Content-Description: Visitenkarte fr Andreas Fasslv  Content-Disposition: attachment;  filename="afassl.vcf"   begin:vcard  n:Fass;Andreas tel;cell:++49 177 470 6710 tel;fax:++49 241 470 6729t tel;home:++49 221 5101516w tel;work:++49 177 470 6710 x-mozilla-html:TRUE  url:http://www.progis.de org:proGIS Software & Beratung- adr:;;Weiern 171;Aachen;NRW;52078;Deutschlandd version:2.1h email;internet:afassl@progis.dep title:Dipl.-Ing. fn:Andreas Fass,	 end:vcard   ( --------------3AF7BE33FD557B8AFABD2539--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:13:04 +0000 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>:( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Educational Program, Message-ID: <3AB951A0.F7279ACC@infopuls.com>   andrew harrison wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:i   [SNIP]  ? > > Boring. I and others suggested several viable solutions not > > > having the mentioned and analysed risks. Unfortunately youD > > didn't get them or you didn't understand them. Bad luck for you.A > > Don't use other people for supporting your Anti-VMS attitude.-D > > And another point: you didn't put in any valuable argument. Your > > post is an empty suit. > ? > Really so what were they ? perhaps a recap would be helpfull.g  ? Yes, it probably would, but I'm tired of doing it. You can findH< it all in my posts of the last three weeks. Some others also? contributed at least as good ideas as mine or even better ones. , But: no COE needed, no "UNIX on VMS" needed.  ? > But in this case the only person showing an Anti-VMS attitudec< > is you, you may not think so. But do you really think that8 > repeating sections of the UNIX haters handbook, an old9 > and even at the time not very accurate set of anti UNIXs* > opinion's is going to advance your case.  > Unfortunately we had this discussion these days in this NG and@ it came out that age of a fact doesn't necessarily invalidate it= and the problems mentioned in that book are still there. UNIXy4 hasn't changed that much - it wouldn't be UNIX then.  H > All you are doing is providing all the ammunition that any UNIX admin/C > ISV/advocate would need if they wanted to make a case that people ? > who use OpenVMS are either criminally uniformed or just plainE? > bizzare. With your kind of views you will get people stickingnB > red tape and "Danger OpenVMS do not enter" signs up around their > AlphaServers.5  ? What would you like to tell us? Boring. Is this technical talk?t@ How could you expect that I talk with you about technical issues) if you reveal such a dull point of view??h  J > This is hardly helpfull to OpenVMS nor is it advancing your case either.  : Thanks that you're stating this. This gives a bit of hope.  = > > > So how would you get major ISV's to support OpenVMS ???u > >a > > See above! > / > No you havn't answered the question, put your ( > points into short lines and send them.  
 See above!  = > > > And don't say OpenVMS is great and UNIX is crap becasuel@ > > > even if it was true it isn't going to get ISV's to support > > > OpenVMS. > >>A > > VMS is really great and UNIX is almost as crappy as Windoze --? > > unfortunately in several respects its much more crappy than-D > > Windoze (I'm sorry to state this) - the most important advantage? > > is that because its simplicity you can survive whereas with   > > Windoze you sometimes can't. > >z > 7 > Christof you havn't answered the question. Why do you 6 > think UNIX is crap? repeating add-nauseum that it is1 > without providing any coeherant examples is notD  > going to win you the argument.  @ We have been through all this. Read the few threads I posted to.  A > > You obviously didn't get is: COE and UNIX on VMS won't do the 
 > > trick! > : > Why ? you havn't articulated any response to this except: > what appears to be a gut fear that it will somehow break
 > OpenVMS.  @ We have been through all this. Read the few threads I posted to.  7 > Do you think that the X-Files are documentary's ?????a  $ It's all there. It's all in this NG.  	 > Regardsn > Andrew Harrisonh > Enterprise IT Architectx   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:51:58 -0600 (CST)8 From: sms@antinode.orgA Subject: Pointless VMS v. UNIX arguments (was: almost everything)m) Message-ID: <01032119515792@antinode.org>o  ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>e  C > > Question: Can you pipe a list of filenames into DELETE on VMS??a > B > It's not necessary because delete offers the necessary selection) > criteria. VMS works fine without pipes.a  @    Just as, for this task, UNIX does.  People expecting VMS-likeD wildcard handling will never find it on a UNIX system.  Serious UNIXF users have discovered "find", which can serve a similar file selection purpose.  F    Sweet Jesus, can you guys start another news group for this kind of3 senseless, pointless argument?  Thank you, so much.a  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home) C    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work) G    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work) 9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work).   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Mar 2001 02:20:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions- Message-ID: <87bsqv7zm8.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  F I wonder if COE will include the requirement that people with system X3 have to be able to read the bloody files from it...a  E Yet another pile of unreadable, incompatable crud. Perhaps we can askeE Compaq for a comiment to provide a COE compilant viewer and web site.    -- -< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:45:15 +0000r) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> , Subject: Re: POSIX Streams, File Permissions, Message-ID: <3AB9592B.2ECA46B9@infopuls.com>   Peter Weaver wrote:e > 8 > "Christof Brass" <brass@infopuls.com> wrote in message( > news:3AB88107.E3AB1BB8@infopuls.com... > >...> > > Can we have a VMS which is free of UNIX API in the kernel?; > > Can we have a VMS which behaves as before wrt directoryX1 > > modification date and delete file permission?g > E > Christof, I've only been glancing at the other thread(s) so I don't E > know if you have actually read the "OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.2-6C1 - * > New Features and Release Notes" documentH > (http://www.openvms.compaq.com/solutions/government/coe/AA-RNALA-TE.PD$ > F) but in it there is the section; > ( > -------------------------------------- > 3.3.1 Additional File Times D > Access dates reflect the last time a file was accessed. To support > POSIX-compliantwH > file timestamps on ODS-5 disks, OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.2-6C1 includes > threeo > new file attributes: > . ATR$C_ACCDATEy > . ATR$C_ATTDATEp > . ATR$C_MODDATEaH > ATR$C_ACCDATE (corresponds to POSIX st_atime) reflects the last time aB > file was accessed. ATR$C_ATTDATE (corresponds to POSIX st_ctime)
 > reflects< > the last time a file attribute was modified. ATR$C_MODDATE > (corresponds to H > POSIX st_mtime) reflects the last time data was modified. Since access > dateseG > must be written out to disk, there is a performance impact when theseg
 > new fileB > attributes are used. The system manager can use the SET VOLUME /	 > [ENABLElA > /DISABLE]=ACCESS_DATES command to enable or disable access datei	 > support . > and the frequency for changing access dates.) > ---------------------------------------  > F > So if you never do a $ SET VOLUME /ENABLE=ACCESS_DATES then you will& > not have to worry about these dates. > + > Also if you never issue the command $ SET-G > PROCESS/CASE_LOOKUP=SENSITIVE then you don't have to worry about casem7 > sensitive files. If you never issue the command $ SET-B > VOLUME/ENABLE=HARDLINK then you don't have to worry about havingG > hardlinks on your disks. Most of the GID stuff looks like it is using-C > the standard SYSUAF ADD/ID, GRANT/ID etc so I don't think that is  > going to affect your systems.| > H > Basically I don't think any of the work the VMS group is doing for COEA > is going to make any major changes to VMS unless you enable it.   < If this is really true I would be very happy. BTW I read the> other thread and the section from the manual you posted there.? And I like to have the possibility of case sensitive file namesr< but the change is only half way. It only remembers the first> writing wrt case. It doesn't allow to have two files named "a"= and "A". I would have liked another option to make it as some. other OSs wrt case.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:52:09 -0800B! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>e@ Subject: RE: STARLETSD and SDL/NOPARSE (was: RE: sytem logicals)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENMCDAA.tom@kednos.com>n  I Well not completely.  I wanted to ship a kit that would build the libs atk the target siteyL as you have previously suggested, so this kit would need to know how to find
 this file.H Hence, the question as to whether SYS$LIBRARY was a universally accepted
 logical.  QEDd  D This may be obvious to those proficient in VMS, which I can't claim.   Tom    > -----Original Message-----; > From: Hoff Hoffman [mailto:hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam]l* > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 10:41 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B > Subject: Re: STARLETSD and SDL/NOPARSE (was: RE: sytem logicals) >e >y? > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEMECDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tomc! > Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes: B > :Thanks for the response, what I was looking to determine was if> > :SYS$LIBRARY:STARLETSD.TLB existed on all later VMS systems. > Consensus seems = > :so.  Curiosity caused me to ask the more general question.- >-H >   STARLETSD is completely unrelated to discussions of system logicals. >iC >   I will assume this is related to the use of SDL/NOPARSE for the-
 > creation@ >   of SDL-based definition files for a particular language.  If
 > so, the useoA >   of SDL/NOPARSE and STARLETSD mechanism has been used for many- > years withinC >   many language kits.  SDL/NOPARSE was somewhat more difficult top > use prior.I >   to the availability of SDL itself on the Freeware, but it was clearly.E >   possible for those languages that had the necessary SDL backends.w >e2 >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> > -----------------------------n5 >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --m > www.openvms.compaq.com4 >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion > ---------------------------s1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineeringy > hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:35:50 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)@ Subject: RE: STARLETSD and SDL/NOPARSE (was: RE: sytem logicals)/ Message-ID: <Gg8u6.24$fB6.585@news.cpqcorp.net>   ] In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIENMCDAA.tom@kednos.com>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> writes:e :tJ :Well not completely.  I wanted to ship a kit that would build the libs atJ :the target site as you have previously suggested, so this kit would need  :to know how to find this file.eI :Hence, the question as to whether SYS$LIBRARY was a universally acceptedS :logical.  QED  B   The availability of a SYS$LIBRARY directory is a common feature C   across all OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha systems systems.  (Well, B   the contents of that directory might be missing in a few obscure2   and disk-space-challenged cases of tailoring.)    C   Pull apart one of the existing Compaq language installation kits  B   that use this technique -- I'd probably look first at the Pascal=   kit -- and extract and examine the KITINSTAL.COM procedure.   5     $ BACKUP/SELECT=SDLPASCAL.EXE PASCALnnn.C/SAVE []</     $ DEFINE SDLPASCAL SYS$DISK:[]SDLPASCAL.EXECE     $ LIBR/EXTR=STARLETFL SYS$LIBRARY:STARLETSD.TLB/OUT=STARLETSD.SDI :     $ SDL/NOPARSE/LANG=lang[/NOHEADER][/VMS] STARLETSD.SDI  :   You can also acquire SDL and SDLNPARSE off the Freeware.  H   Some languages use an onmibus definition file for the conversion, and I   some "chunk up" the contents of the STARLETSD.TLB file into individual 4   files for the conversion.T   	--D  H   It is often useful to include general details of the question, as the H   problem you seek to solve may best involve an approach different than H   the specific approach under consideration.  In this case, you asked a J   very general and open-ended question on the existence of logical names, F   and a question that is in practice rather difficult to answer.  The F   specific question -- the general availability of SYS$LIBRARY for useI   with STARLETSD -- is a far easier and simpler question to answer.  And OG   in the case of the STARLETSD SDL definitions, a very specific answer DH   to the question is (obviously) feasible.  No offense is intended, BTW.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Mar 2001 05:33:52 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com># Subject: Re: Support of old systemsh- Message-ID: <87d7ba7qnz.fsf@prep.synonet.com>B  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  = >   The instruction sequences and generated codepaths are fareE >   different and are far more involved than was the VAX XPA support.e   >   In other words, TANSTAAFL.  H I hope that TC functioning at least continues for some time..., however.  F How many people have looked at the HUGE changes in Alpha/VMS that haveE happened in the last few versions? And I don't mean the Galaxy stuff,n" I mean in the 'vanilla' code base.  I VMS engineering have almost ripped out the entire foundation and replacedoI it with a much, much better one, and no one seems to have noticed. P2 andCI the unlimited ( almost ) VA took a huge amount of work, and NOTHING BROKEnI at the normal user level! And, for that matter, very few changes in innerh mode utility code.  A If they had preanounced they where going to do it, I think we alltC would have had a good giggle... I consider the that in the last fewkF years VMS engineering have pulled off a near mirricle in system design and software engineering.d  / And I suspect this is only the first chapter...o   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.u@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:40:57 -0500o  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com># Subject: Re: Support of old systems 5 Message-ID: <1010321182132.3712B-100000@Ives.egh.com>g  ( On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Hoff Hoffman wrote:  F >   Why?  At what cost?  Support for older hardware can and does placeH >   constraints on new work and new development, in addition to the veryH >   obvious detractions involving testing and engineering support costs.J >   Case in point: CD-ROM media on VAX.  Without this, we are required to M >   maintain a gazillion tape bootstraps and a parallel tape-based bootstrap nL >   environment and a tape-based installation.  Were OpenVMS able to switch D >   over to CD-ROM distributions, there could have made a number of N >   improvements made to the OpenVMS VAX installation and upgrade environment.G >   And OpenVMS VAX would have just one system bootstrap environment...s  B I would love to have a CD-ROM on my VAX 4000-200 at work and on myB VAX 3600 at home...  At work I have a HSD05 on the DSSI bus with aA single RZ29 in a BA356 (as well as a pair of RF disks on the sameM< DSSI bus.)  Can I put an RRD4x in the top slot of the BA356,> which seems to be a raw 5 1/2 SCSI slot purposely designed for= CD-ROMS?  Or an external CD-ROM drive?  (I have an RRD42 in a:= desk-top box I can play with.)  Will I be able to boot my VAXo from it?  B What about my 3600 at home?  (Hobbyist system).  No SCSI, No DSSI.@ Has anyone ever written a PC emulator of an Infoserver?  (I have? two PC's with CD-ROM's on the same ethernet.  Actually, one hast. a CD-ROM drive and one has a DVD and a CD-RW.) Would an Infoserver emulator be1$ a) possible, technically or legally?6 b) not an insane amount of work as a hobbyist project?; c) useful enough to the hobbyist community (those with old,D;    CD-less VAXes, mostly, I would think) to be worth doing?h< d) isn't the infoserver actually a microVAX of some variety?A    could the infoserver software run under a MV emulator on a PC?  e) is there a better approach?  ; (Last time I looked, QBUS SCSI controllers are about $1000.I: No way for a hobbyist, or even for a business that is only: keeping a VAX around to support the last few customers who" still haven't migrated to Alphas.)  ? How much would DEC/Compaq have saved in support, documentation,e9 product development, etc. costs, if they had made CD-ROMsn; the only way to install software years ago and provided all 9 existing customers with a cheap (or free?) CD-ROM drive &p8 controller.  Producing TK50 and 9-track tapes has got to9 cost a fortune.  (Of course, they charge for support, andp# so maybe they make a profit on it.)h   -- o John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:58:02 -0000l1 From: "NewsReader" <NewsReader@NotOnYourLife.Com>o$ Subject: Re: TCP/IP 5.0A ECO Appears2 Message-ID: <rI7u6.10$%c1.694@news.enterprise.net>  D I got the PCSI kit DSN copied to me about 5 weeks ago & both patches
 installed.F Our quarterly VMS Alpha kit arrived this week & TCP/IP 5.1 is on it...  < "Hans Bachner" <Hans.Bachner@altavista.net> wrote in message" news:998egq.ac.1@hans.myfqdn.de...- > Peter LANGSTOEGER (eplan@kapsch.net) wrote:  >rI > >In article <VA.0000014a.14081d45@sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> 
 > >writes:J > >>In article <ZR_M5.11$iB4.10761@news.enterprise.net>, NewsReader wrote: > <snip>K > >>> I contacted Compaq after downloading the patch & not able to install.nI > >>> They said the PCSI kit wasn't available! (that was a week after thepK > >>> TCP/IP ECO was released). Now what is the point of releasing a kit wee< > >>> can't install? To tease us perhaps... I'm waiting too. > >>>iK > >>I've been waiting too, albeit I'm only running a hobbyist system, so it  > >>isn't urgent for me. > >>E > >>I did start exploring the TCPIP kit with a view to doing a manualvC > >>extraction, but thought it better to wait for the official fix.e > >iK > >The target date (1-nov-2000) for the VAX PCSI ECO kit passed by, and I'm E > >still not able to install the ECO 1 for TCPIP V5.0A on my VAXes...u > C > The long awaited VMS72_PCSI ECO for OpenVMS VAX is now officiallyo	 availablenH > (I'm sure your local support organisations have provided a provisionalK > version of this kit earlier). The kit does not show up on the patches web F > site yet, but should soon be available there. Until then, your local Compaq$ > support can provide the final kit. >  > Hope this helps. > --< > ---------------- speaking only for myself ----------------< > Hans Bachner               E-Mail: Hans.Bachner@compaq.com > Compaq Computer Austriaf+ > Compaq Global Services - Software Support    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:20:12 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>oE Subject: Re: The art of flaming (was Re: OpenVMS Educational Program)h, Message-ID: <3AB9534B.1365C317@infopuls.com>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:n > $ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > A > On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> wrote:  > >It's sad. > > > I know, but you need more practice flaming people Christoff. > M > Unfortunately, Google's butchery of the deja archives makes showing you theeL > spanking I gave Tony Szopa a little difficult. Just watch out for mentions> > of my character (Lord Running Clam) on the following page... > m > http://groups.google.com/groups?num=25&hl=en&lr=&group=sci.crypt&safe=off&th=21e9c8e27f8e6d97&start=75&ic=1g > J > Yes, that eventually led to M$ being called "The Biggest Humbug you ever > done saw". > M > N.B. I said M$, not Sun or any other Un*X producer. I may not be incredibly K > fond of an OS where they practice command set security through obscurity,y > but it beats M$ anyday.  >  > Doc. >  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----s > Version: 2.6.2 > B > iQEVAwUBOrfg8sriC3SGiziTAQFn+wf/RN0xlDFXdLxe5U+eNf3r2rTZNG/OJABzB > Wdw8tjLp41Hy958HAxKV51eGrxh2EcuHHxaTNHBn8iZTrS4J38tHTJ17ECRTx7JtB > RC2GXhvSAdPReMnFBBCvtTRtk8sfaIWqTc4vJ9nju1u0Z1gJfELjZSTwFpWj7FF/B > CLX+QxEE0UaYpEWs8Fkg5Z1DWtuSF1aPm0/w+c8XM5I/q/vWr+MSgLxfGslZ+FUnB > wLnVdKHeiw+Vv4u2wymWasUODMMziT9vsjfSfcgMQMfncW8nkT2Vz2e0174wHc2A: > zXetIXPpv94HJTH+PI01twYDutXF0Gw3bYyVAo8HqpO2WRr5zbFI1g== > =OobL  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----e  5 I've looked into that thread about M$'s products copy-9 protection. Yes it is an exchange of "no arguments". But,1: needless to say, I contributed a lot of arguments already.9 Andrew simply didn't read them. And my arguments were not-: directed against him because he didn't participate in that thread.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:03:28 GMTg, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com>, Subject: Uaf Show/rights status bug (v7.2-1)5 Message-ID: <4p3u6.31124$1f.161798@quark.idirect.com>o  0 Just a heads-up for anyone converting to V7.2-1.  8 It seems that the "show/rights" portion of the authorize) utility for OpenVMS version 7.2-1 (Alpha) 7 returns a bad status.   This can lead to broken command ) files &etc. for user authorization tasks.    Version 7.2-1... $ uaf:=$authorize  $ uaf show/rights system= Identifier                         Value           Attributes -   NET$MANAGE                       %X91F50002--   NET$DIAGNOSE                     %X91F50004r $ sh sym $status   $STATUS == "%X10000000"    Version 7.1... $  uaf show/rights system = Identifier                         Value           Attributeso-   NET$MANAGE                       %X91F50002m $ sh sym $status   $STATUS == "%X00000001"i   I'm logging a call to DEQ now. Scott    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:35:36 -0600e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>iY Subject: RE: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was	Re:OpenVMS EductL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0BDD54C2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----D > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]  F > Fair enough, I learned something about VMS today.  But, just for the= > sake of completeness, there is no reason why a single Unix l > command couldsF > not call multiple images depending on what it wants to do.  Could be? > there already are.  One of the nice things and disadvantages   > to abstraction > is you just don't know.u  H I believe that a c compiler is a good example of this.  Called this way:  H cc -c -o hose hose.c (For those of you who don't know it, hose is a real command)  J You will get an object file, which actually involves not only the compilerH application, but also the assembler.  On the other hand called this way:  & cc -o hose stdhose.o hosemain.o -linet  I The linker will get called straight-away, and the compiler doesn't do toor much.m  G It's not exactly the same, but is one example of a program which called = several different images depending on what you tell it to do.a   Regards,   Chrisl  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");S 'V   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 20:33:11 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)mY Subject: Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Edus+ Message-ID: <99b367$1fu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>   4 In article <rX5u6.163329$Z2.2017043@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,0  "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:7 |> Trying to avoid this thread as much as possible but;S |>  A |> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messageo) |> news:99aj5s$2rjg$1@info.cs.uofs.edu... ; |> > In article <1010321054351.21646A-100000@Ives.egh.com>, ( |> >  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes: |> >... B |> > |> a program to execute.  Unless all the "show" commands were |> executed by |> > |> a single program, etc.)s |> >6 |> > You mean like they are on VMS??  [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXE |> l= |> SHOW INTRUSION uses the image CIA, SHOW ACL uses the imageeE |> SETSHOSECUR, SHOW CPU uses the image SMPUTIL. There are other SHOW I |> commands that invoke other images. None of these commands use the SHOWr	 |> image.  |> -  D Fair enough, I learned something about VMS today.  But, just for theH sake of completeness, there is no reason why a single Unix command couldD not call multiple images depending on what it wants to do.  Could beK there already are.  One of the nice things and disadvantages to abstraction  is you just don't know.s   |> > |> >... I |> > First, the commands (ie. ls, ps, rm, ln, mv, etc.) are not a part of.D |> > the shell int he first place any more than SHOW is part of DCL. |>  B |> SHOW DEFAULT is a CLIROUTINE, the same as SHOW PROTECTION, SHOWG |> SYMBOL, SHOW TRANSLATION and others. These commands do not invoke anHD |> image. That is why you can control-Y out of an image, issue these@ |> commands and then CONTINUE your image again. I learnt that onF |> 13-NOV-1984 on VMS 3.7 but the story is much too long to post here. |> I  E So it looks like Unix and VMS have even more similarites. Some thingsmD are built into the shell and somethings are done by external images.   bill   -- SJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 21 Mar 2001 20:57:32 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)Y Subject: Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Eduf3 Message-ID: <99b4js$2b6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>L  + In article <99b367$1fu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, 4 	bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 > In article <rX5u6.163329$Z2.2017043@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,2 >  "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:8 >|> Trying to avoid this thread as much as possible but; >|> B >|> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message* >|> news:99aj5s$2rjg$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...< >|> > In article <1010321054351.21646A-100000@Ives.egh.com>,) >|> >  John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:  >|> >...C >|> > |> a program to execute.  Unless all the "show" commands were- >|> executed by,  >|> > |> a single program, etc.) >|> >@7 >|> > You mean like they are on VMS??  [SYSEXE]SHOW.EXET >|> > >|> SHOW INTRUSION uses the image CIA, SHOW ACL uses the imageF >|> SETSHOSECUR, SHOW CPU uses the image SMPUTIL. There are other SHOWJ >|> commands that invoke other images. None of these commands use the SHOW
 >|> image. >|>  > F > Fair enough, I learned something about VMS today.  But, just for theJ > sake of completeness, there is no reason why a single Unix command couldF > not call multiple images depending on what it wants to do.  Could beM > there already are.  One of the nice things and disadvantages to abstractiont > is you just don't know.V  B Just as an example, mkfs and fsck are usually wrappers to call the/ appropriate mkfs_<whatever_filesystem> program.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:38:18 -0500x* From: "Andy Stoffel" <acs@fcgnetworks.net>Y Subject: Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re: OpenVMS Edud8 Message-ID: <rb9u6.83639$lj4.2275032@news6.giganews.com>  7 "Brian Wheeler" <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote in messageC- news:99b4js$2b6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu...T- > In article <99b367$1fu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>,.5 > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:L  H > > Fair enough, I learned something about VMS today.  But, just for theL > > sake of completeness, there is no reason why a single Unix command couldH > > not call multiple images depending on what it wants to do.  Could beC > > there already are.  One of the nice things and disadvantages toe abstraction  > > is you just don't know.r >eD > Just as an example, mkfs and fsck are usually wrappers to call the1 > appropriate mkfs_<whatever_filesystem> program.a  > My Unix-memories are a bit rusty but aren't there also several: Unix (or did I see this on a Linux system a few years ago)7 programs where the behavior of the program depends upono- the name given it ? ex and vi spring to mind.r   -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:08:43 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMS Educd, Message-ID: <3AB9428B.A90A5BC4@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 6 > In article <rX5u6.163329$Z2.2017043@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, [SNIP]  G > So it looks like Unix and VMS have even more similarites. Some thingsiF > are built into the shell and somethings are done by external images. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   Yes they both execute programs. @ Unfortunately you used the word option for the second word after8 "SHOW". In my opinion this reveals another point of weak? understanding: there is a genuine difference between parameterso< and qualifiers in VMS whereas the difference in UNIX is only> folklore. Do you know what happens if files with certain names< like "-f" are in a directory and you use a wildcard which is? expanded the way that such a file is included in the list whicha= will then be passed onto the command you're going to execute?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:10:04 +0000n) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> Y Subject: Re: VERB SHOW (was Re: Dumbing Down VMS with UNIX Elements? (was Re:OpenVMS Educi, Message-ID: <3AB942DC.87704F63@infopuls.com>   Andy Stoffel wrote:i > 9 > "Brian Wheeler" <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote in message / > news:99b4js$2b6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu...i/ > > In article <99b367$1fu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, 7 > > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i > J > > > Fair enough, I learned something about VMS today.  But, just for theN > > > sake of completeness, there is no reason why a single Unix command couldJ > > > not call multiple images depending on what it wants to do.  Could beE > > > there already are.  One of the nice things and disadvantages to 
 > abstractiona > > > is you just don't know.o > >nF > > Just as an example, mkfs and fsck are usually wrappers to call the3 > > appropriate mkfs_<whatever_filesystem> program.1 > @ > My Unix-memories are a bit rusty but aren't there also several< > Unix (or did I see this on a Linux system a few years ago)9 > programs where the behavior of the program depends upon / > the name given it ? ex and vi spring to mind.p >  > -Andy-  ; Yup. sendmail can be invoked using different names and willu behave completely different.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:31:25 GMTn! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com>e9 Subject: Re: [change topic] First VMS cluster in Europe ?s& Message-ID: <DCKZZBAKbSu6EwgZ@gol.com>  C In article <15FEB01.18313367@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, Carl Karcherm( <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> writes9 >In a previous article, steven.reece@quintiles.com wrote:e >CJ >->We had a cluster of two 780's plus HSC50 up and running in January '84.B >->That was at the EMBL (European Molecular Biology Laboratory) inG >->Heidelberg.  I was system manager.  IIRC that predated the launch of  >->the 750.h >AL >I worked on a 750 that was delivered (in the US) in spring '82 with VMS V2.  H I recall we added HSC50s to our single 780 in '84 or '85 in order to addH more storage.  Prior to that we'd been using SI disks but had run out ofE slots.  Digital told us around that time that we had the biggest diskeA capacity on single VAX world-wide (we were in the UK).  We hostedoF databases for on-line searching at magnificent dial-up speeds of 300 -	 1200 bps.-   Regards    Ians --  
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:56:15 -0500a# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>t$ Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day+ Message-ID: <3AB8F94F.20B46052@hsc.vcu.edu>)  $ ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ............  # i share your pain, and memories!!!!t   j.   Paul Sture wrote:  > > > In article <3AB77B89.3594AFBA@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew wrote:' > > From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>c > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms ( > > Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day) > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:21 -0500u4 > > To: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > >  > > I remember on a pdp-11, losing a whole years worth of FORTRAN code...  Right in front of my micromanaging women's libber boss... > > (Now, there are people who are reasonable, and those who are UNreasonable..)  I acted normal, went home, then sneaked back and` > > edited all the compiler listings into source...  whew... and they never found out, either... > >t0 > > If it happens to you once, you REMEMBER!!!!! > >oN > Back in PDP days, we lost most of week's development once, the morning of anR > Open Day when I was supposed to give a demo of our latest shiny new application. > H > We plied our audience with specially imported _strong_ beer before theO > presentation, and I waffled quite extensively around login screens and menus,uR > hiding the fact that it was mostly broken behind the scenes. We got away with it > :-)C > O > Paper listings came to our aid, except for the junior programmer who had just N > finished his first large program, and thrown his listings away to celebrate,I > thinking he'd grab new ones on the Monday. He was _not_ a happy chap...r > ___  > Paul Sture
 > SwitzerlandR   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:22:29 -0800 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comt$ Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the dayD Message-ID: <OFF9902288.FF5FA435-ON88256A16.0069EE55@foundation.com>  J A few friends of mine were once doing a group project at University. PhaseH one was to write the proposal, which they did. Phase two was to documentI the design, which they did. Then they came to implementation - oops - the @ tools they documented in the design couldn't do the job. At all.  J They wrote a little BASIC program to fake the screens, and access the 5.25F floppy at the right moments, for just one sequence of operations. TheyG showed this "demonstration" to the lecturer as the deliverable of phaseeK three, and got an 80%+ mark. The lecturer never knew that if he'd asked for I one keypress variation from their planned demonstration, they'd have beeno% up the famous creek without a paddle.i   Shanee          7 Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> on 03/21/2001 10:56:15 AM    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como cc:a  % Subject:  Re: [DCL] minute of the dayo    $ ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ............  # i share your pain, and memories!!!!-   j.   Paul Sture wrote:r >s> > In article <3AB77B89.3594AFBA@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew wrote:' > > From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>t > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmss( > > Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day) > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:21 -050004 > > To: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > >jI > > I remember on a pdp-11, losing a whole years worth of FORTRAN code...-9 Right in front of my micromanaging women's libber boss...n@ > > (Now, there are people who are reasonable, and those who areA UNreasonable..)  I acted normal, went home, then sneaked back and K > > edited all the compiler listings into source...  whew... and they nevern found out, either... > > 0 > > If it happens to you once, you REMEMBER!!!!! > >gK > Back in PDP days, we lost most of week's development once, the morning ofc anE > Open Day when I was supposed to give a demo of our latest shiny newe application. >5H > We plied our audience with specially imported _strong_ beer before theH > presentation, and I waffled quite extensively around login screens and menus,J > hiding the fact that it was mostly broken behind the scenes. We got away with ite > :-)  >oJ > Paper listings came to our aid, except for the junior programmer who had justC > finished his first large program, and thrown his listings away to 
 celebrate,I > thinking he'd grab new ones on the Monday. He was _not_ a happy chap...z > ___8 > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlandx   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:06:31 -05001& From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca>$ Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day8 Message-ID: <7w9u6.11259$7g.216549@wagner.videotron.net>  @ I once had a program to write in school. The language was Basic, interpreted.  L I had a bug in it, but did not want to fix it because it was too long and itK was due for the next day. So I added a GOTO and a few lines that cleaned uptI the error condition. The last line of the program was a DELETE nnn TO nnnlI which deleted the lines in the program (plus itself). Because the teachereK wanted us to do a LIST and give it to him in proof that the program we just 7 ran in front of him really corresponded to the listing.i     --   Syltrem.  http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  ; <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> a crit dans le message news:e9 OFF9902288.FF5FA435-ON88256A16.0069EE55@foundation.com.... > L > A few friends of mine were once doing a group project at University. PhaseJ > one was to write the proposal, which they did. Phase two was to documentK > the design, which they did. Then they came to implementation - oops - the$B > tools they documented in the design couldn't do the job. At all. > L > They wrote a little BASIC program to fake the screens, and access the 5.25H > floppy at the right moments, for just one sequence of operations. TheyI > showed this "demonstration" to the lecturer as the deliverable of phaserI > three, and got an 80%+ mark. The lecturer never knew that if he'd asked  for K > one keypress variation from their planned demonstration, they'd have beenn' > up the famous creek without a paddle.- >- > Shane- >- >  >a >  >,9 > Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> on 03/21/2001 10:56:15 AMt >m > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComH > cc:  > ' > Subject:  Re: [DCL] minute of the day	 >O >V& > ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ............ >0% > i share your pain, and memories!!!!o >  > j. >O > Paul Sture wrote:  > >m@ > > In article <3AB77B89.3594AFBA@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew wrote:) > > > From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>S > > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsa* > > > Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day+ > > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:21 -0500m6 > > > To: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > > >hK > > > I remember on a pdp-11, losing a whole years worth of FORTRAN code...n; > Right in front of my micromanaging women's libber boss...sB > > > (Now, there are people who are reasonable, and those who areC > UNreasonable..)  I acted normal, went home, then sneaked back andiG > > > edited all the compiler listings into source...  whew... and theyl never, > found out, either... > > >e2 > > > If it happens to you once, you REMEMBER!!!!! > > >iJ > > Back in PDP days, we lost most of week's development once, the morning of > anG > > Open Day when I was supposed to give a demo of our latest shiny neww > application. > > J > > We plied our audience with specially imported _strong_ beer before theJ > > presentation, and I waffled quite extensively around login screens and > menus,L > > hiding the fact that it was mostly broken behind the scenes. We got away	 > with it- > > :-)- > > L > > Paper listings came to our aid, except for the junior programmer who had > justE > > finished his first large program, and thrown his listings away to  > celebrate,K > > thinking he'd grab new ones on the Monday. He was _not_ a happy chap...Z > > ___@ > > Paul Sture > > Switzerland  >t >w >e >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:08:53 -0500 & From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca>$ Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day8 Message-ID: <ly9u6.11265$7g.216756@wagner.videotron.net>   Oops pressed wrong key.I   Anyway, I had my 100% as usual.JJ Ah! These were great times! We can't fool arounf like this anymore in real life!"   --   Syltrem>  http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  > "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message news:- 7w9u6.11259$7g.216549@wagner.videotron.net...eB > I once had a program to write in school. The language was Basic, > interpreted. >aK > I had a bug in it, but did not want to fix it because it was too long andu itJ > was due for the next day. So I added a GOTO and a few lines that cleaned upK > the error condition. The last line of the program was a DELETE nnn TO nnnxK > which deleted the lines in the program (plus itself). Because the teacheroH > wanted us to do a LIST and give it to him in proof that the program we just9 > ran in front of him really corresponded to the listing.t >h >o > -- >e	 > Syltremm" > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem >>= > <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> a crit dans le message news:.; > OFF9902288.FF5FA435-ON88256A16.0069EE55@foundation.com...T > >NH > > A few friends of mine were once doing a group project at University. Phase L > > one was to write the proposal, which they did. Phase two was to documentI > > the design, which they did. Then they came to implementation - oops -  the.D > > tools they documented in the design couldn't do the job. At all. > >iI > > They wrote a little BASIC program to fake the screens, and access thel 5.25J > > floppy at the right moments, for just one sequence of operations. TheyK > > showed this "demonstration" to the lecturer as the deliverable of phase K > > three, and got an 80%+ mark. The lecturer never knew that if he'd askedc > for H > > one keypress variation from their planned demonstration, they'd have been) > > up the famous creek without a paddle.T > >m	 > > Shanei > >a > >( > >  > >e > >u; > > Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> on 03/21/2001 10:56:15 AMe > >( > > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > > cc:b > >l) > > Subject:  Re: [DCL] minute of the day3 > >u > >f( > > ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ............ > >i' > > i share your pain, and memories!!!!u > >3 > > j. > >@ > > Paul Sture wrote:e > > >vB > > > In article <3AB77B89.3594AFBA@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew wrote:+ > > > > From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>u > > > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmse, > > > > Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day- > > > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:21 -050048 > > > > To: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > > > > E > > > > I remember on a pdp-11, losing a whole years worth of FORTRANw code...s= > > Right in front of my micromanaging women's libber boss... D > > > > (Now, there are people who are reasonable, and those who areE > > UNreasonable..)  I acted normal, went home, then sneaked back andOI > > > > edited all the compiler listings into source...  whew... and theyt > nevere > > found out, either... > > > >d4 > > > > If it happens to you once, you REMEMBER!!!!! > > > >sL > > > Back in PDP days, we lost most of week's development once, the morning > of > > anI > > > Open Day when I was supposed to give a demo of our latest shiny newi > > application. > > > L > > > We plied our audience with specially imported _strong_ beer before theL > > > presentation, and I waffled quite extensively around login screens and
 > > menus,I > > > hiding the fact that it was mostly broken behind the scenes. We got- away > > with it 	 > > > :-)2 > > >0J > > > Paper listings came to our aid, except for the junior programmer who had  > > justG > > > finished his first large program, and thrown his listings away toD > > celebrate,E > > > thinking he'd grab new ones on the Monday. He was _not_ a happy> chap... 	 > > > ___e > > > Paul Sture > > > Switzerlande > >T > >n > >c > >9 >7 >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:44:26 -0800s! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comm$ Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the dayD Message-ID: <OF911E1E1F.F3A8F021-ON88256A16.007CE6B6@foundation.com>  " Unless you work for Microsoft.....   Shanen          8 Syltrem <syltrem@videotron.ca> on 03/21/2001 02:08:53 PM   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt cc:t  % Subject:  Re: [DCL] minute of the dayn     Oops pressed wrong key.e   Anyway, I had my 100% as usual.sH Ah! These were great times! We can't fool arounf like this anymore in r= ealo life!e   --   Syltrema  http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem  @ "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca> a =E9crit dans le message news:- 7w9u6.11259$7g.216549@wagner.videotron.net...aB > I once had a program to write in school. The language was Basic, > interpreted. > H > I had a bug in it, but did not want to fix it because it was too long=  and itH > was due for the next day. So I added a GOTO and a few lines that clea= nede upH > the error condition. The last line of the program was a DELETE nnn TO=  nnnH > which deleted the lines in the program (plus itself). Because the tea= cherH > wanted us to do a LIST and give it to him in proof that the program w= en just9 > ran in front of him really corresponded to the listing.i >  >  > -- >i	 > Syltremo" > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem >s? > <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> a =E9crit dans le message news:o; > OFF9902288.FF5FA435-ON88256A16.0069EE55@foundation.com...c > >nH > > A few friends of mine were once doing a group project at University= .t PhaseaC > > one was to write the proposal, which they did. Phase two was tor documentH > > the design, which they did. Then they came to implementation - oops=  - the D > > tools they documented in the design couldn't do the job. At all. > >eH > > They wrote a little BASIC program to fake the screens, and access t= he 5.25H > > floppy at the right moments, for just one sequence of operations. T= heyaH > > showed this "demonstration" to the lecturer as the deliverable of p= haseH > > three, and got an 80%+ mark. The lecturer never knew that if he'd a= sked > for1H > > one keypress variation from their planned demonstration, they'd hav= eR been) > > up the famous creek without a paddle.t > >a	 > > ShaneS > >i > >s > >D > >B > >.; > > Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> on 03/21/2001 10:56:15 AMW > >r > > To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > > cc:  > >s) > > Subject:  Re: [DCL] minute of the day  > >n > >c( > > ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ............ > >t' > > i share your pain, and memories!!!!t > >  > > j. > >r > > Paul Sture wrote:t > > >oB > > > In article <3AB77B89.3594AFBA@hsc.vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew wrote:+ > > > > From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>  > > > > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsp, > > > > Subject: Re: [DCL] minute of the day- > > > > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:47:21 -0500d8 > > > > To: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > > > > E > > > > I remember on a pdp-11, losing a whole years worth of FORTRANl code... = > > Right in front of my micromanaging women's libber boss...-D > > > > (Now, there are people who are reasonable, and those who areE > > UNreasonable..)  I acted normal, went home, then sneaked back andhH > > > > edited all the compiler listings into source...  whew... and th= ey > never  > > found out, either... > > > >i4 > > > > If it happens to you once, you REMEMBER!!!!! > > > >rD > > > Back in PDP days, we lost most of week's development once, the morning  > of > > anH > > > Open Day when I was supposed to give a demo of our latest shiny n= ew > > application. > > >bH > > > We plied our audience with specially imported _strong_ beer befor= er thecH > > > presentation, and I waffled quite extensively around login screen= sn ande
 > > menus,H > > > hiding the fact that it was mostly broken behind the scenes. We g= ot away > > with ita	 > > > :-)e > > >EH > > > Paper listings came to our aid, except for the junior programmer = who  had  > > justH > > > finished his first large program, and thrown his listings away to=   > > celebrate,E > > > thinking he'd grab new ones on the Monday. He was _not_ a happy  chap...5	 > > > ___o > > > Paul Sture > > > Switzerland' > >n > >g > >i > >u >a >u           =t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:24:24 -0500y# From: "Ram Rajadhyaksha" <dev@null> ' Subject: [Q] Need Help on Backup Scriptn Message-ID: <3ab96263$1@news>-  J I am attempting to make a backup script that will backup 3 volumes. When II commit it to batch (SUBMIT MYBACKUPSCRIPT.COM), it always fails after theiE second volume for some reason. The first time was probably because itsL encounted an open file and I had the ON ERROR set to branch. Other times the- job simply terminates and I have no idea why..  B Here's my script (drive names changed to protect the innocent :-):  * $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Starting Full Backup." $ SHOW TIMEu $ ALLOCATE MKAxxx: $ INIT MKAxxx: MYLABEL $ DEALLOCATE MKAxxx: $ !d $ ! Mount Tape $ !  $ MOUNT/FOR MKAxxx:0I $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA1:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA1.SAVbI $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA2:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA2.SAVnI $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA3:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA3.SAVo $ DISMOUNT/UNLOAD MKAxxx:w@ $ SHOW TIME$OUTPUT "Full Backup Script Done. Check log to verify completeness." $ EXIT  I And the script terminates after the BACKUP command finishes on disk 2 at:.  1 BACKUP-S-COPIED, COPIED DKA2:[000000]VOLSET.SYS;1!  7 Disk 2 happens to be the live OpenVMS system disk, btw.l     Second question:  J After this thing fails, the machine prints out the WHOLE log to the systemK printer. When you backup 100000 files, this is not an environmentally happybF thing. Is there a way to turn that damn feature off and have it simply" record everything to a log file???   Thanks.t   -- Ram Rajadhyaksha DLZ CorporationW www.dlzcorp.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:58:43 -0500a  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>+ Subject: Re: [Q] Need Help on Backup Script 5 Message-ID: <1010321214202.3712B-100000@Ives.egh.com>e  , On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Ram Rajadhyaksha wrote:  L > I am attempting to make a backup script that will backup 3 volumes. When IK > commit it to batch (SUBMIT MYBACKUPSCRIPT.COM), it always fails after theCG > second volume for some reason. The first time was probably because it5N > encounted an open file and I had the ON ERROR set to branch. Other times the/ > job simply terminates and I have no idea why.i > D > Here's my script (drive names changed to protect the innocent :-): > , > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Starting Full Backup."
 > $ SHOW TIMEn > $ ALLOCATE MKAxxx: > $ INIT MKAxxx: MYLABEL > $ DEALLOCATE MKAxxx:B Why deallocate it?  Someone could sneak in and grab it before your mount. > $ !s > $ ! Mount Tape > $ !o > $ MOUNT/FOR MKAxxx:dK > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA1:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA1.SAV K > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA2:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA2.SAVaK > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA3:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA3.SAV ; You can make all these backups much more efficient by usingv7 /block=large_number and if your tape drive supports it,S /media_format=compaction.  > $ DISMOUNT/UNLOAD MKAxxx: B > $ SHOW TIME$OUTPUT "Full Backup Script Done. Check log to verify > completeness." > $ EXIT > K > And the script terminates after the BACKUP command finishes on disk 2 at:  > 3 > BACKUP-S-COPIED, COPIED DKA2:[000000]VOLSET.SYS;1  > 9 > Disk 2 happens to be the live OpenVMS system disk, btw.e  ? Aha!  You are probably getting file access conflict errors.  Ifi< you want to backup the system disk online (or any other disk> with files open for write access on them), you need to specify= /ignore=interlock on the input disk.  BACKUP will do its beste: to back the files up, but there are no guarantees.  If you< were to also use /verify, you would probably get differences; between the input files and the backup copies, because theyn  were modified during the backup.  > Consider using /IMAGE, which is much more useful for restoring9 a full disk, and will prevent saving aliased files twice.o  > Also consider using /RECORD, so you can do incremental backups between the full backups.   7 This is all covered in the VMS system manager's manual._   > Second question: > L > After this thing fails, the machine prints out the WHOLE log to the systemM > printer. When you backup 100000 files, this is not an environmentally happyeH > thing. Is there a way to turn that damn feature off and have it simply$ > record everything to a log file???  < It would do the same thing if it succeeded, because you told it to.  Possible cures:w  D 1) use SUBMIT/NOPRINT.  This leaves the (huge) log on disk.  You can examine it when needed.-  A 2) Use /journal instead of /log.  This makes a journal file, thatr@ can be examined when needed.  The journal file is compressed, soB takes up less space than the log file.  Use backup/journal/list to& convert the journal file to text form.  @ 3) redirect sys$output to another log file.  (Haven't tried this> with backup, so I don't know if it works, but it does for most
 programs.)  	 > Thanks.d   You're welcome.i   > -- > Ram Rajadhyaksha > DLZ Corporationl > www.dlzcorp.comg   --   John SantosT Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:31:43 -0600n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i+ Subject: Re: [Q] Need Help on Backup Script-' Message-ID: <3AB9721F.96D038DF@fsi.net>l   Ram Rajadhyaksha wrote:t > L > I am attempting to make a backup script that will backup 3 volumes. When IK > commit it to batch (SUBMIT MYBACKUPSCRIPT.COM), it always fails after thecG > second volume for some reason. The first time was probably because itPN > encounted an open file and I had the ON ERROR set to branch. Other times the/ > job simply terminates and I have no idea why.n > D > Here's my script (drive names changed to protect the innocent :-): > , > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Starting Full Backup."
 > $ SHOW TIME  > $ ALLOCATE MKAxxx: > $ INIT MKAxxx: MYLABEL > $ DEALLOCATE MKAxxx: > $ !t > $ ! Mount Tape > $ !s > $ MOUNT/FOR MKAxxx:sK > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA1:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA1.SAV K > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA2:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA2.SAVeK > $ BACKUP/NOREWIND/LOG/LABEL=MYLABEL DKA3:[000000...]*.*;* MKAxxx:DKA3.SAV  > $ DISMOUNT/UNLOAD MKAxxx:vB > $ SHOW TIME$OUTPUT "Full Backup Script Done. Check log to verify > completeness." > $ EXIT > K > And the script terminates after the BACKUP command finishes on disk 2 at:  > 3 > BACKUP-S-COPIED, COPIED DKA2:[000000]VOLSET.SYS;1a > 9 > Disk 2 happens to be the live OpenVMS system disk, btw.c  E Something is happening there - this process isn't just dying. There's G gotta be a reason. Try putting SET PROCESS/DUMP before the first BACKUP G command and see if leaves a dump. It would help to see a segment of thed* log file (Try TYPE/TAIL on V6.2 or later).  G You really don't want BACKUP/LOG, do you? BACKUP/LIST=filespec might be 9 more useful, and the log would certainly be much smaller!   w > Second question: > L > After this thing fails, the machine prints out the WHOLE log to the systemM > printer. When you backup 100000 files, this is not an environmentally happy H > thing. Is there a way to turn that damn feature off and have it simply$ > record everything to a log file???  ' Sure - there's a couple ways, at least:o  * 1. Use SUBMIT/NOPRINT to kick off the job.  G 2. In the DCL procedure, put something like "DEFINE SYS$PRINT DUMMY" orwG something that causes SYS$PRINT to be meaningless when the system tries  to print the log.e   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsx http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.161 ************************