1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 02 May 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 244       Contents:1 (Fwd) Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects 5 Re: (Fwd) Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects  ANN: Analog v5.0 Available& Anyone got any Volker-Craig Terminals? auto-reboot on VAX 6630  Re: Capellas Knows VMS Re: Capellas Knows VMS Re: DCL "library"  Re: DCL "library"  Re: DCL "library"   Re: Decserver 100,PS0801ENG.SYS?* DECwindows XFS (X font server) Motif 1.2-5 DFU tool Vs. DFO! Re: Easy Multinet ftp question...  Re: KVM Switch Re: KVM Switch Re: LPD/LPR printers on VMS  Re: mozilla .81  Need help with a 3100/76/ RE: OpenVMS article - please explain last line! & OT: New W2K/IIS5 serious security hole" SAMBA BUG: OpenVMS NOT VULNERABLE.+ TCPIP V5.0a eco2 vs. V5.1 for remote system / Re: TCPIP V5.0a eco2 vs. V5.1 for remote system 1 Re: Test!  Please post a response if you see this P The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos of oP Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos P Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos P Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos 	 TIN 1.4.4 ' VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects + Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects + Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects  Re: VLCs5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100% 5 Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%  Re: [OT] Religion  Re: [OT] Religion   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:41:12 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>: Subject: (Fwd) Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects. Message-ID: <3AEF2D78.19711.10CF492@localhost>  F > If the Console was not logged in at the time, any attempt to type isH > greeted with a bleep. If logged in, nothing although a ^C generated an > *INTERRUPT* on the screen.  E When you log into the console, do a SET PROC/PRIOR=31 .  The symptom  C is characteristic of a high-priority process hogging all the CPU.   C When the system "hangs", you should still be operational.  At that  E point, find and SET PROC/SUSPEND/ID=xxxx the process, and everything   should return to normal.     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:09:45 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com> > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects( Message-ID: <3AEF9699.F5E12D24@mmaz.com>   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote:  H > > If the Console was not logged in at the time, any attempt to type isJ > > greeted with a bleep. If logged in, nothing although a ^C generated an > > *INTERRUPT* on the screen.  J This is also very symptomatic of the SPTE problems discussed earlier whereG by having too few resources, NOSLOT and system hanging occured with 7.2  running on VAX systems.     9 > When you log into the console, do a SET PROC/PRIOR=31 .   L This will do you no good unless you are already logged in and with the aboveI mentioned SPTE problem, it didn't matter what your priority was, you were  subject to hanging...    Regards,   Barry    --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  " Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:01:29 GMT/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> # Subject: ANN: Analog v5.0 Available ) Message-ID: <3AEEEBE9.6C0830E2@uiowa.edu>   
 Greetings!  H     I am pleased to announce the availability of Stephen Turner's Analog v5.0.   =            "The most popular logfile analyser in the world !"   G     This is the official public release of the recent beta (v4.9x) that  I D had mentioned and made available on my web server in the past month.  E     I have an OpenVMS specific kit and binaries available from my web  server:   6         http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/analog/  ' or you can start at Analog's home page:            http://www.analog.cx/   >     The OpenVMS kit includes all the graphics libraries and is
 configuredH to use JPEG instead of PNG, it you want to.  This is important for thoseF that want to view the HTML output with the OpenVMS Netscape v3.03 that' does not support in-line PNG images. :)   E     If there are any problems with the OpenVMS aspects, please let me " know and I will see what I can do.   Enjoy!
 Rick Dyson --H Richard L. Dyson                                    rick-dyson@uiowa.eduH  _   _      _____                http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/H | | | |    |_   _|   Systems Analyst                     O: 319/335-1879H | | | | of   | |     The University of Iowa            FAX: 319/335-17536 | \_/ |     _| |_    Department of Physics & Astronomy-  \___/     |_____|   Iowa City, IA 52242-1479    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 04:06:44 GMT ! From: Beyonder <beyonder@vrx.net> / Subject: Anyone got any Volker-Craig Terminals? 8 Message-ID: <lluuet82n4f5u36im25k05lds9bh6j2efd@4ax.com>  % Any for sale, lease, trade, whatever?    B.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:31:31 -07000 From: Jack Ziegler <ziegler@it-ue450.sonoma.edu>  Subject: auto-reboot on VAX 6630L Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.02A.10105011218070.13003-100000@it-ue450.sonoma.edu>   Hello,  E I'm having a problem with auto-reboot on a VAX 6630.  When the system H crashes, or I use sys$sytem:shutdown with auto-reboot, I get an "UnknownJ boot device" error, when the reboot is attempted.  However, if I just typeE "B" at the console prompt, the system boots fine, so the default boot  command is correct.   8 E-mail or post.  Thank you for any help you can provide.  ! Jack Ziegler                    | > Information Technology          | internet: ziegler@sonoma.edu9 Sonoma State University         | phone   : (707)664-3098 9 Rohnert Park, CA 94928          | FAX     : (707)664-2505    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:20:55 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Capellas Knows VMS L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0105012220550001@user-2iveb4f.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <rxIXeI88bm$z@eisner.encompasserve.org>, : Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > In articleA <rdeininger-3004012111360001@user-2ive6ih.dialup.mindspring.com>, 4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:J > > In article <tzjH6.6022$e85.2469624@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C.   J > > With some extra tutoring after school, I think he'll be up to speed in > > another few quarters.  > L > And how good are _you_ at extraneous speeches before securities analysts ?  = Terrible, I'm sure. (Checks job description.)  But that's ok.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 22:25:18 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Capellas Knows VMS L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0105012225180001@user-2iveb4f.dialup.mindspring.com>  F In article <hEpH6.6213$e85.2710547@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C.+ Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:     M > Considering the audience to whom he was speaking, I'd say MC exhibited more K > than enough comprehension. Herewith the financial analyst's question, and  > MC's response.J > ANALYST: And then secondly, the question I have for Michael, the messageN > today is that you've been willing to take some tough decisions. A year and aL > half ago you consolidated your platforms, eliminated NT and Alpha and UnixJ > on Intel. Can you tell us at this stage whether there is any incrementalK > change in your commitment to the various platforms, whether it's True 64, - > Alpha, VMS, Himalaya, et cetera? Thank you.   F Yes, it seems better in this context.  The question was pretty vague. G MC's answer was probably about right.  I didn't realize it wasn't a VMS C question, and he did pretty well to bring in as much VMS as he did.    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:21:17 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: DCL "library"- Message-ID: <x8DH6.1$lP5.68@news.cpqcorp.net>   Y In article <3AEEC8D8.D83AF58D@bbc.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:  ..C :Is there some hackery with @ or otherwise I can do to force DCL to I :interpret code in a procedure library file spearate from the application  :code.  E   Ayup, you can use a combination of SET SYMBOL/SCOPE and @ for this. D   You do have to be careful with symbol scope, to prevent clobberingD   global symbols.  You will become quite aware of the meaning of DCL6   "procedure levels" if you choose this approach, too.   A   VMSINSTAL uses this technique for calling itself, and it's also    covered in the DCL book.  D   Other approaches available include DCL DECnet task-to-task, use ofF   subprocesses or PIPEs, and similar -- all of which provide you with C   a context that cannot clobber the symbols of the calling context. E   These are covered in the Ask The Wizard area (topic 159, 798, etc)  B   and in the DCL book.  (PIPE also features in the FAQ, as you mayD   end up learning about ampersand substitution and the phases of DCL2   symbol substitution if this approach is chosen.)    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 1 MAY 2001 17:55:14 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) Subject: Re: DCL "library"5 Message-ID: <1MAY01.17551465@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   E While you can't CALL outside of a DCL procedure file you can simulate F it by defining a symbol that will execute a subroutine contained in an7 external file. E.g in your DCL "application" procedure:   , $ Call_Util := @sys$manager:Utility_routines $ ... 2 $ Call_util Get_Directory_File 'P1' Directory_File $ ...   F Then in sys$manager:Utility_routines.com (requires 132 columns to view
 comments):  ] $ v = 'f$verify(F$Trn("V_Utility_Routines") + 0)'				! Turn off verification and save setting O $! General purpose DCL utility subroutines. Called by other DCL procedures, not  $! intended to run alone.  $!# $!  P1		Name of routine entry point * $!  P2-P8	Passed to routine called by P1.  $!4 $! Restriction: Routines in this file may not use P8 $ L $ Set Symbol/Scope=(NOLOCAL)							! Hide all symbols outside this procedure> $ DCL$_USCALL = %X382d8								! Status code for %DCL-W-USCALLB $ On Warning Then GoTo Error_Handler						! Trap warnings or worseC $ Call 'P1' "''P2'" "''P3'" "''P4'" "''P5'" "''P6'" "''P7'" "''P8'" M $ Exit $status + 0 * F$verify(V)						! Exit and restore verification setting  $  $Error_Handler:  $ Status = $status $ If Status .eq. DCL$_USCALLl $  Then Write sys$output "%UTLRTN-E-NORTN, Routine ''P1' is not present in SYS$MANAGER:UTILITY_ROUTINES.COM"} $  Else Write sys$output "%UTLRTN-E-ERROR, Call ''P1' ''P2' ''P3' ''P4' ''P5' ''P6' ''P7' ''P8' failed with status ''Status'"  $ EndIf 
 $ Exit Status  $ P $! =============================================================================E $! 	GET_DIRECTORY_FILE	|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| P $! =============================================================================L $! Routine to return the name of the directory file of a specified directory1 $! even if the directory does not actually exist. K $!  P1 = Directory specification (Anything you can specify to SET DEFAULT). 2 $!  P2 = Name of global symbol to return result in $  $Get_Directory_file: Subroutine < $ RMS_DEFAULT = F$ENV("DEFAULT")						! Save old RMS defaultY $ P1 = P1 - F$Element(1,"]",P1)	- "..."						! Remove any file spec or directory wildcard \ $ On Warning Then Pipe/NoSymbols/NoLogicals Status = $Status ; -		! On warnings, save statusm   SET DEFAULT 'RMS_DEFAULT' ; Exit Status .or. %x10000002			!  restore default, cvt to error and exit quietly 3 $ SET DEF 'P1'									! Set default to project dir D $ 'P2' == F$PARSE("[-]")-".;" -							! Get name of upper directory,b   + (((F$PARSE(F$Env("DEFAULT"),,,"directory")-"]") -				! Append directory of where we are less ]q   - (F$PARSE("[-]",,,"DIRECTORY")-"]")) - "." - "[") + ".DIR"			! Remove the first level, period, [ then add .DIR  $ SET DEFAULT 'RMS_DEFAULT'  $ Exit $Status $EndSUbroutine   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 16:43:18 +0100 - From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>  Subject: Re: DCL "library"1 Message-ID: <3AEED996.58A3F93D@BlueBubble.UK.Com>    Tim Llewellyn wrote: > C > I'm pretty sure this isn't possible but I'm asking anyway in case 	 > someone  > knows how. > G > I'm implementing a simple DCL menu package at present. I'd like to be J > able to keep the callable routines in a "library" separate from the main# > application code that calls them.  > J > The only way I can think to do this is have an extra step where the menu > J > package is appended to the application code and then executed. This will > work but is just a bit messy.  > D > Is there some hackery with @ or otherwise I can do to force DCL toJ > interpret code in a procedure library file spearate from the application > code.   C Tim, I'm really digging this out from a far, distant universe in my  head. ( I think what you need is something like:  ) 	//JOBLIB DD DSN=TIM.LIBRARY.JCL,DISP=SHR  	//STEP1  EXEC PROC=MYPROC 	//FOR005 DD SYSIN=* 	//FOR006 DD SYSPRINT=A            P.s. ;-)  E I can think of one possible solution to yer real query, namely having B a general-purpose little procedure that is capable of executing anC arbitrary member from a text library.  Should be pretty easy to put F something together quite quickly. Heck, for nostalgia's sake you couldE even have it look in a procedure library defined by the logical names $ (in order) PROCLIB, and then JOBLIB.  C (by the way, probably only the real oldies will understand this :-)   	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 01:12:03 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>) Subject: Re: Decserver 100,PS0801ENG.SYS? / Message-ID: <1010502010834.11356A@Ives.egh.com>   ( On Tue, 1 May 2001, Brian Tillman wrote:   > >Get it at > > + > >ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/DecServer/  > K > Of course, that's not the most recent one that was released.  That one is L > BL37.  The newest one that was released was BL37B, which can be found on aC > very early CONDIST (prior to 1994; I don't any that old on hand).   G My DS200's have BL40, but I don't know where it came from.  (AKA V3.3A)    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:27:27 +0930 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> 3 Subject: DECwindows XFS (X font server) Motif 1.2-5 / Message-ID: <3AEF85A7.DE387812@wasd.vsm.com.au>   - I am a little tired of ports that don't work.   G Anyone having problems with the above?  Ours seems to work most of some A of the time if on even socket numbers during the early morning or  afternights.  @ I took this up with CSC some months ago without satisfaction.  I: shouldn't have to be spending my time chasing such trivial functionality.  E My image is identified as V1.0 link date/time 21-JUN-2000 11:59:54.58sG (it is something CSC supplied me with, not the original from 1.2-5).  Io3 couldn't see any ECOs for 1.2-5 on the Compaq page l:   http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtml   Other info ...  7   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1 :   on a AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz 4MB running OpenVMS V7.2-1   Anyone have a better XFS?.  ) As always, thanks for your consideration.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:54:48 +0300) From: "Iris Green" <iris.green@intel.com>i Subject: DFU tool Vs. DFOi* Message-ID: <9co59s$a5g@news.or.intel.com>   Hi all,:  F What is the difference between the DFU shareware, and the DFO Utility? ----------------------------- G I have installed the DFU on an Alpha machine, and I want to try the DFOFJ utility as well. The reason I need this utils is disk fragmentation. WhileH using the "perfect disk" tool we faced problems, so we are looking for a  different tool for this purpose.@ I would be happy to hear about user experience with those tools.     Thanks in advance-  
 Iris Green Intel IL   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:41:50 -0500 C From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>N* Subject: Re: Easy Multinet ftp question...I Message-ID: <craig.berry-E196DA.23414901052001@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>g  ) In article <3AEE27F8.90B0F725@wi.rr.com>, &  Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote:   > C > When I try to run this com, the Multinet ftp client chokes on thed6 > single-ticks around the filename in the get command.  F copy/ftp should work, as others have suggested.  I think you can also H just do the whole thing as a one-line ftp command, thus allowing DCL to  do symbol substitution:g  @ $ ftp/noprompt/user='userid'/password='password' ftp.acme.com - %    get "download/y013.dat" 'filename'E $ exit   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 03:07:37 GMT0) From: "Rob Brown" <robbrown@shaw.wave.ca>  Subject: Re: KVM SwitchRD Message-ID: <01c0d2b5$1bb16ce0$5a8f4f18@cs918188-a.ed.shawcable.net>  / john nixon <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in articlea5 <gFxH6.154128$o9.20894500@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>...@H > Is anyone familiar with this?   It allows you to connect the Keyboard, VideoDF > and Mouse from several host systems to one side of the switch, and a singleK > keyboard, video terminal and mouse to the other.  You then manage several H > host systems from one console monitor.   Does this work for VMS (Alpha VMSh+ > 7.2-1 if that makes a difference) systemst  J Is there any chance of finding one that would allow an old DEC 3000-400 to share KVM with a modern PC?o   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 21:41:40 -0500D9 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)r Subject: Re: KVM Switch-3 Message-ID: <kS3GHeu4BK5h@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  g In article <gFxH6.154128$o9.20894500@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:qN > Is anyone familiar with this?   It allows you to connect the Keyboard, VideoM > and Mouse from several host systems to one side of the switch, and a singlejK > keyboard, video terminal and mouse to the other.  You then manage several9L > host systems from one console monitor.   Does this work for VMS (Alpha VMS+ > 7.2-1 if that makes a difference) systemsp  2 The DECUServe discussion from two years ago is at:  K     http://eisner.decus.org/DECUServe/DECnotes/HARDWARE_HELP/2236/SDIR.HTML    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:12:47 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>i$ Subject: Re: LPD/LPR printers on VMS' Message-ID: <3AEF18BF.8C56ED66@srv.net>s   Thanks. That worked well.    Matt Muggeridge wrote: > N > You don't mention which TCP/IP product you use, but I expect they all behaveC > similarly in this regard... the syntax is likely to be different.  > D > For TCP/IP Services, you can add hosts to the local database with: > J >     TCPIP SET HOST "myhost.mydomain.com"/alias="myhost"/address=10.0.0.1 > $ > To remove the host use SET NOHOST.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 18:54:14 GMT"# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.eduN Subject: Re: mozilla .81+ Message-ID: <9cn0om$lcl$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>   W In article <3AEE8720.E8C2639B@theblakes.com>, Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> writes:0u >Double check the file/directory protections. I've seen cases before where lack of access to one of the MozIlla filesrC >causes this sort of a problem (though to be honest, not recently).w >sq >The other thing to check is quotas. Look for differences between the privileged and non-privileged accounts. See \ >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/mozilla_relnotes.html#param for details.  + Thanks I'll have another look to make sure.p   Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:48:44 -0500  From: MikeWJ <mjenkins@jcn.net>i! Subject: Need help with a 3100/76e8 Message-ID: <at3vet0pmhuphdn7ur4reul039m0p6d6gh@4ax.com>  G  I have a MicroVAX 3100/76.  I know that it has two scsi channels; thenh0  "internal" or scsia, and the external or scsib.  N On the scsia side, I have 3 RZ24's.  I would really like to upgrade these to a> disk of the same physical size, but offering larger capacity.   I On the scsib side, I have (4) RZ57's and (2) RZ56's (in 3 SZ12's) and (1)e' TLZ07L-DA.  And an internal TK50 drive.-  9% One of the RZ56's is the system disk.f  wI What I'd like to do is to replace the RZ56's and RZ57's with RZ59's.  All&) are SCSI.  I think the RZ59's would fit.    5I Is it possible to add more drives to the scsia? Internally or attached to6M another SZ12?  What I'm really after is the ability to have 2 TLZ07L-DA's fora5 backups and duplication of tapes for offsite storage.b  L I have 28 MB of memory and as soon as I find a 16MB "card", I'll swap it out$ with one of the existing 12MB cards.  0G The 3100/76 is replacing a VAXcluster of (2) 4600's, (1) 3100/76, & (1)cK 4000/vlc.  Current management would like ALL of the vax's to disappear (the1M current platform of choice in Windows NT/2000) and the data transferred to annM Oracle database on a Compaq ML330.  Most of this is already completed, but werO still have need of the Coda/Ingres/Misc databases on the VAX side of the house.v   : The equipment is completely owned and has full licenses.    e4 Any ideas that you can give are greatly appreciated.    Mike Jenkins VAX Systems Managera   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 20:13:06 -0500 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>S8 Subject: RE: OpenVMS article - please explain last line!R Message-ID: <DC4745D1A85CA04180C83CDC706A9D180D95A8@cthexc02.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,   J >>> Its just a pity you didn't bother reading your own white papers beforeI contributing to this thread it would have saved you and your supporters a03 load of wasted time not to mention embarassment.<<<c  B ok, lets do this again some time .. you said, I said, you said ..    oh, never mind ..    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant4 Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Services. Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]u Sent: May 1, 2001 11:41 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS article - please explain last line!     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > 	 > Andrew,l > I > The point I made was valid ie. the raw numbers of the systems posted on  theeK > external web site are newer versions of HW (EV68 833Mhz) than the systems J > that were used (EV67 677Mhz) in the posted streams results at that time. > L > Now, I was going to state that only when the new numbers are posted, wouldJ > you have a valid point, but I just checked and the new ES40 EV68 numbers are7. > now posted and do not show much improvement. >rG > So, I agree with you. I will raise this as something that needs to be G > revisited. However, all I can do is point this out to the appropriater CompaqH > folks and the decision will be up to them as to what action they take. > I > >>> And you are entitled to call Sun on that and raise doubts about thee/ > number, until we publish a STREAMS result.<<<r > I > In the meantime, to make sure we both play by the same rules... While I  haveG > no doubt they are coming soon, can you give us an idea as to when thelD > advertised 9.2Gb streams numbers will be available for the new Sun	 3800/4800 
 > servers? >   4 No idea and as I said you are welcome to call us on  this claim.   3 Its just a pity you didn't bother reading your own b2 white papers before contributing to this thread it2 would have saved you and your supporters a load of( wasted time not to mention embarassment.   Regardsr
 > Regards, >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > Compaq Canada Inc. > Professional Serviceso > Voice: 613-592-4660s > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----9 > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]l > Sent: April 30, 2001 8:05 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc: > Subject: Re: OpenVMS article - please explain last line! >  > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >l
 > > Andrew ..  > >p > > Sensitive these days eh ?o > >  > > :-)b > >o > > Hey, I agreed with you ! > >s > > Heres my statement:aG > > "Anyway, I do agree with you that the we should have a more currentl	 > streamsiJ > > number available that correlates closer to currently available systems and ! > > will see what I can find out.h > > , > > Thank you for kindly pointing this out." > >e > 0 > Come on Kerry you knew it was there, you could. > not have been stupid enough to only read the+ > first 3 paragraphs of the white paper youu > used as reference. > ) > And as you can see from the white papern& > your own technical peoples advice is& > to ignore RAW numbers and instead to! > go for STREAMS numbers instead.f > $ > On that basis your own white paper# > says that your claim of 5.2 GB isa% > BS, get used to it or get the whitet) > papers authors to withdraw the article.- >  > v-G > > Again, even if a new EV68 number does not reflect the raw bandwidth  numberA > > that is on the web site (and yes I agree with you that is not- necessarily- > a-* > > good thing), what about the Sun site ? > >- > < > What about Sun's site. We are discussing your BS not Sun's. > so why are you trying to change the subject. > < > What is at issue is your claims of falsehood and wrongness$ > not anything that Sun has claimed. > I > > Can you let us know where the 9.6Gb streams numbers are for these newo- > > servers that are posted on the Sun site ?uC > > http://www.sun.com/servers/midrange/comparison.html (System buse	 bandwidthi > > 9.6Gb sustained) > >  > ; > And you are entitled to call Sun on that and raise doubts:6 > about the number, until we publish a STREAMS result. > 8 > The problem is you have published a STREAMS result for4 > the ES40 and on that basis there is no support for3 > you claim of 5.2 GB/s since the STREAMS number is	0 > almost exactly 50% of your claimed RAW number. > B > > As far as I could see, the only ones posted are older servers:L > > Machine ID                      ncpus    COPY    SCALE      ADD    TRIADL > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------L > > Sun_UE_6000_assembly              16   2551.0   2449.9   2434.6   2434.9 > >d > 4 > Great example because it only serves to illustrate5 > the difference between Compaq marketing BS and whatn/ > Sun says about the capability of our systems.' > 3 > http://www.sun.com/960416/wp/wp.ultra.server.html  > 6 > Details the performance of the E6000 backplane, read6 > the claimed performance of the backplane. We claimed4 > 2.5 GB/s and thats almost exactly what the STREAMS > result is. > 4 > You are claiming 5.2 GB/s despite a STREAMS result. > of half this and a white paper from your own4 > techical people arguing that RAW bandwidth numbers	 > are BS.  > 0 > How much longer are you going to go on digging
 > for ???? > 	 > regards= > Andrew Harrison= > Enterprise IT Architect=   -- = Andrew HarrisonE Enterprise IT Architect|   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 15:37:21 -0700=! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com=/ Subject: OT: New W2K/IIS5 serious security holeyD Message-ID: <OF95D5DB93.92F3CCB2-ON88256A3F.007BBB80@foundation.com>  K We may beat up on Solaris because of Andrew, but frankly there's much worse H things out there. Apparently there is a newly found vulnerability in W2KD when used with IIS 5 that lets anybody into your server at a commandF prompt, "simply by sending a single string of carefully crafted text".7 They're describing it as the worst hole found in years.   * http://www.msnbc.com/news/567192.asp?cp1=1  = There is a patch already, if you think your company needs it.S   Shane.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 16:59:42 -0500E3 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)P+ Subject: SAMBA BUG: OpenVMS NOT VULNERABLE.o3 Message-ID: <Sn3q2hJW4m2u@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  7 Recently SAMBA 2.2.0 and SAMBA 2.0.8 for UNIX platformse6 were released to fix a security hole where a malicious# local user could corrupt disk data.l  4 This exploit can not be reproduced on any version of Samba running on OpenVMS.u  1 OpenVMS permissions do not allow a non-privileged06 local user from issuing the closest equivalent command to begin the exploit.j   -JohnD wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion OnlyD   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 19:48:37 GMTi+ From: rjordan@mars.mcs.net (Richard Jordan) 4 Subject: TCPIP V5.0a eco2 vs. V5.1 for remote system5 Message-ID: <pqEH6.11600$JN5.285127@news.goodnet.com>e  F I have a new DS10 running OpenVMS V7.2-1 being set up for installationB at a remote site.  It will likely run what I put on it for quite aG while (years) before anything is upgraded again, barring a catastrophico bug showing up.c  D I have the choice of running TCPIP V5.1, the current/new release, orD V5.0a eco 2.  I've run base 5.0a and 5.0a eco 1 with no trouble, butE don't have 5.1 anywhere yet.  If anyone here has experience with bothiB releases (5.0a eco 2 and V5.1) I'd appreciate your opinion on the C relative reliability and stability of the two releases.  I have to  3 decide which to go with in the next couple of days.   A TCPIP usage is failry basic; telnet for terminal logins, FTP for  C transfer to peecee clients, and _maybe_ tftp to downline load firm-eB ware updates for some netboxes at the remote site.  No DNS, almostD certainly no SMTP (pending their decision... this is not an internet conected site).    Thanks!    Rich Jordanq rjordan@mcs.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:15:55 -0700d- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> 8 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.0a eco2 vs. V5.1 for remote system, Message-ID: <3AEF89FB.F89F7E28@peoplepc.com>   Richard Jordan wrote:- > H > I have a new DS10 running OpenVMS V7.2-1 being set up for installationD > at a remote site.  It will likely run what I put on it for quite aI > while (years) before anything is upgraded again, barring a catastrophica > bug showing up.i > F > I have the choice of running TCPIP V5.1, the current/new release, orF > V5.0a eco 2.  I've run base 5.0a and 5.0a eco 1 with no trouble, but  > don't have 5.1 anywhere yet.      C We've got V5.1 installed on one test system today and will start toI	 "roll it tG in" on the rest of our cluster in about a week.  Personally, I would goe with   V5.1..  
 Jack Patteeuwn   ------------------------------   Date: 01 May 2001 20:51:32 GMT From: "Laughingbear" <kg@vm.st>e: Subject: Re: Test!  Please post a response if you see this0 Message-ID: <9cn7kk$cfl@dispatch.concentric.net>   Chris;  D I think you have the Severity field of this msg wrong. It should be:  % %POST-I-WRONGNG, wrong news group....o  K This is hardly a -F-atal or -S-evere error.  ;)   (even a -W-arning seems a  bit out of place...)   Peace to you and yours;e   Kim Laughingbear   --H What exactly is so 'Open' about 'OpenVMS'?   Linux users want to know... --    ? "Chris Doran" <donotreply@interbulletin.bogus> wrote in messaget* news:3AEDCA16.1CD5C04@interbulletin.com...4 > Thomas G Wirt <twirt@kittles.com> wrote in article# > <3AEDB295.1761608E@kittles.com> :rK > >I have had recent trouble getting my postings from my server to the rest/K > >of the net.  Someone please let me know if they can see this.  Sorry forp > >the inconvenience.O > >S > >Thomas Wirt > B > %POST-F-WRONGNG, wrong newsgroup, should have used alt.test etc. >h1 > (unless you have a problem with a specific NG).n >e- > Chris (chris_doran.n.o.s.p.a.m@my-deja.com)a1 > _______________________________________________e= > Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com- >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:52:56 -0500n- From: John Wisniewski <wisniewski@vmsone.com>-Y Subject: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos of oh* Message-ID: <3AEF1418.41EFE43D@vmsone.com>   http://www.dfwcug.org/  . If you were there... Stroll down memory lane..  H If you weren't there... Lots of great OpenVMS  engineering presentationsA to catch up on and some Pictures for your Screen Saver so you canh pretend that your were!G  B And a shout out to Bob Gezelter... Bob.. If you don't send us yourD homepage URL(s) we can't link your photos to them (as we  promised). We hope that thatN; USB camera you won at DFWDAYS has found some use already;-)a   Be seeing you,   John Wisniewskim 44th level Adept of the DFWCUG wisniewski@vmsone.comi   Please note:  G The DFWCUG committee for overseeing other committees have censored some > of our more sensitive photographs for security reasons.  HAL's
 construction,eH The Bunker of Doom's interior, drinking incredibly large cups of coffee,B and studying for the FCC's HAM RADIO test have been removed in the interest of the C public good.  Do not ask for private   viewings, you will be turneds down...p   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 20:47:08 GMT-= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)rY Subject: Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos b0 Message-ID: <009FB5E6.D2CDC870@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <3AEF1418.41EFE43D@vmsone.com>, John Wisniewski <wisniewski@vmsone.com> writes: >http://www.dfwcug.org/i >r/ >If you were there... Stroll down memory lane..r > I >If you weren't there... Lots of great OpenVMS  engineering presentationsdB >to catch up on and some Pictures for your Screen Saver so you can >pretend that your were!  L How is it that you boys in the DFWCUG can pull together your event's sessionL materials in a matter of days and get them published on the web and the CETSL national event -- now 6 months and counting prior -- can't get their event's. sessions together and distributed as promised?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM:             O city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 02:23:42 GMTt$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>Y Subject: Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos e) Message-ID: <3AEF7014.E8AE1157@wi.rr.com>a   John:   I Thank you for posting the presentations.  Lots of good info.  It's almosto like being there.o  
 -Scott :^)   John Wisniewski wrote:   > http://www.dfwcug.org/ >n0 > If you were there... Stroll down memory lane.. >rJ > If you weren't there... Lots of great OpenVMS  engineering presentationsC > to catch up on and some Pictures for your Screen Saver so you cana > pretend that your were!m >eD > And a shout out to Bob Gezelter... Bob.. If you don't send us yourF > homepage URL(s) we can't link your photos to them (as we  promised). > We hope that that = > USB camera you won at DFWDAYS has found some use already;-)t >e > Be seeing you, >a > John Wisniewski.  > 44th level Adept of the DFWCUG > wisniewski@vmsone.comS >i > Please note: >sI > The DFWCUG committee for overseeing other committees have censored someo@ > of our more sensitive photographs for security reasons.  HAL's > construction,-J > The Bunker of Doom's interior, drinking incredibly large cups of coffee,D > and studying for the FCC's HAM RADIO test have been removed in the > interest of theeE > public good.  Do not ask for private   viewings, you will be turnedn	 > down...c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:37:11 -0500 - From: John Wisniewski <wisniewski@vmsone.com>lY Subject: Re: The DFWCUG's DFWDAYS 2001 Presentations are online (as well as a few photos h* Message-ID: <3AEF9D07.43F79CA7@vmsone.com>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:   >  >oN > How is it that you boys in the DFWCUG can pull together your event's sessionN > materials in a matter of days and get them published on the web and the CETSN > national event -- now 6 months and counting prior -- can't get their event's0 > sessions together and distributed as promised? >w  N Now now...    We're much much smaller and an all volunteer organization... andL are dealing with much fewer sessions then CETS will host..   And our WEBsite does run on VMS;-)  ]  I'm just sorry I didn't have the time to convert the PPT files to PDF files so they could beo viewedS on a VMS machine too.  (The single conversions were taking over 30 minutes for eachv/ presentation and adding 1.5Mbytes to t hem ...)e  Q Also I would point out that not all of our Volunteers and Leadership  are male...f  S Hey DFWCUG members.. You just hosted a Great Event in Dallas, Posted  presentationsCN and JPGs to the WEB, Got the T1 working again and got your May Newsletter out!   Where are you going next?h  C Why, We're going to Disney Land, eh no, We're going to CETS 2001;-)L   Hope to see you there!   John Wisniewskip 44th level Adept of the DFWCUG wisniewski@vmsone.coma http://www.dfwcug.org/   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 01:18:02 GMT12 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: TIN 1.4.42 Message-ID: <efJH6.25$7O2.943@typhoon.aracnet.com>  I Has anyone gotten Tin 1.4.4 off of the Freeware V5.0 CD-ROM working?  I'md@ guessing I'm doing something wrong.  I'm trying to run it on an I AlphaStation 200 4/233 running OpenVMS V7.2 and TCPIP V5.0.  Actaully I'msJ suspecting that this might be the problem as I've not yet tried rebuilding Tin from the sources.n   Here is what happens:t   $ tingI tin 1.4.4 release 20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") [Unknown] (c) Copyright- 1991-9# 9 Iain Lea & Tod McQuillin & other.aI Aracnet Internet's news server -- Powered by Typhoon [Z] (Typhoon v1.2.2)c# Reading groups from active file...-i Checking for new groups...! Reading global attributes file...A Reading attributes file... Reading newsgroups file.../u; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtualo address=6D2E6D2E6D2E& 6D2C, PC=6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2C, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000005e1                         Name   = 000000000000000Cd1                                  0000000000010000 1                                  6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2C61                                  6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2Ci1                                  000000000000001B        Register dump:J     R0  = 0000000000000000  R1  = 0000000000000001  R2  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2EJ     R3  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2E  R4  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2E  R5  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2EJ     R6  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2E  R7  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2E  R8  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2EJ     R9  = 2E746C612E006D2E  R10 = 2E746C612E746C61  R11 = 2E746C612E746C61J     R12 = 2E746C612E746C61  R13 = 2E746C612E746C61  R14 = 2E746C612E746C61J     R15 = 000000007B013990  R16 = 00000000002FF53C  R17 = 0000000000000000J     R18 = 0000000000448080  R19 = 0000000000000000  R20 = 0000000000000000J     R21 = 0000000000000000  R22 = 000000007AED5658  R23 = 0000000000000001J     R24 = 0000000000000040  R25 = 0000000000000003  R26 = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2EJ     R27 = FFFFFFFF80CB5440  R28 = 000000007BEFC018  R29 = 2E746C612E746C61J     SP  = 000000007AED5A20  PC  = 6D2E6D2E6D2E6D2C  PS  = 200000000000001B $   F  ACCVIO,  access violation executing program 'string' request for node           'string'     Facility:     AMDS, DECamds   G   Explanation:  A Data Analyzer request for data from the Data Providert couldbJ                 not be serviced due to inaccessibility of data on the Data                 Provider node.  G   User Action:  Contact a Compaq support representative, indicating the0 system:                 environment at the time of the corruption.      F Doing a 'tcpdump' of traffic going through my firewall shows that it'sD definitly trying to talk to the newserver, and that the newserver is
 answering up.   + Anyone have any ideas what I'm doing wrong?n   			Zanen   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:53:10 GMTp) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) 0 Subject: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects0 Message-ID: <3aef48ad.68733583@news.wcc.govt.nz>  	 Hi Chaps,   C Config is a MV3100-90 running VMS 7.2, TCP 5.1, all Level 1 Patches C plus a few others. Clustered with a small Alpha on 7.2-1, TCP 5.1 &S@ similar status of Patches. VAX has the only vote and serves data! (including UAF etc) to the Alpha.s" Config has been running for yonks!A Most VAX Disks internal with one on a BA, that's the System Disk.t  D A few days ago the VAX just stopped and has repeated this four times now. reboot cures it.u: It's not crashed, doesn't get to >>>, doesn't memory dump. No hardware errors logged.4 Nothing in Operator.Log, Memory Page files are fine.A It seems to be random and, last night, was when it was doing veryr little.u  D If the Console was not logged in at the time, any attempt to type isF greeted with a bleep. If logged in, nothing although a ^C generated an *INTERRUPT* on the screen.  B We run DECAMDS but the node just disappears from that. So, I can't "FIX" anything via DECAMDS.s  D We have MVTIMEOUT set to 3600 on the Alpha, interestingly the servedA disks seem to go into Mount Verify Timeout straight away? Haven'ts@ fully confirmed this behaviour as yet. Generally the Alpha needs rebooting as well.  # The only odd message I've seen was:r> arp, Illegal IRP address used by Hardware Address 00-80-64-15!  > Alas, it was to the Alpha Screen and got shortened. I've sinceC re-enabled the Operator.Log on the Alpha to try and see if anythingSB else turns up there. No idea where the Hardware  comes from and itD doesn't seem to match any known H/W Addresses. Checked the Interface8 configs but they seem okay and haven't changed recently.  F Most recent product on the System is ECP, but it did "stop" when I had the collection disabled.  7 So, anyone any clues, 'cause I am running out of ideas.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 20:35:35 -0400S- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r4 Subject: Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects, Message-ID: <3AEF5640.D2C65E3D@videotron.ca>   Rob Buxton wrote:t< > It's not crashed, doesn't get to >>>, doesn't memory dump. > No hardware errors logged.  J When it gets to that state, what happens if you try to SET HOST to the VAX node ?  G When I had problems with process creation,  it would report back on theCN working machine the reason the session couldn't be created on the target node.  J on the working node, are you able to SHOW SYS/NODE=vaxnode ?  I have foundN that this command works "deep" inside the machine even when the machine appear dead on the surface.  J Is it possible that your system disk gets filled ? VMS will freeze in suchO circumstances to ensure that no unlawful activity happens without being logged.   % > The only odd message I've seen was:c@ > arp, Illegal IRP address used by Hardware Address 00-80-64-15!  $ That is generated by TCPIP services.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 03:08:38 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)p4 Subject: Re: VAX Just Stops - Not the Usual Suspects0 Message-ID: <3aef788e.80990227@news.wcc.govt.nz>  , On Tue, 01 May 2001 20:35:35 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n   >Rob Buxton wrote:= >> It's not crashed, doesn't get to >>>, doesn't memory dump.- >> No hardware errors logged.  >,K >When it gets to that state, what happens if you try to SET HOST to the VAX: >node ?I  . Set Hosts just timeout as do telnet requests.  >2H >When I had problems with process creation,  it would report back on theO >working machine the reason the session couldn't be created on the target node.e >i: Don't think I'm getting to the point of process creation.   K >on the working node, are you able to SHOW SYS/NODE=vaxnode ?  I have foundnO >that this command works "deep" inside the machine even when the machine appearo >dead on the surface./ >w? Nope, The cluster is effectively hung. The remaining node staysyE visible to DECAMDS but because the majority of the disks are now in a-B mount verify state and because logins on the second node cannot be5 actioned I can't do anything from the second machine.   K >Is it possible that your system disk gets filled ? VMS will freeze in suchtP >circumstances to ensure that no unlawful activity happens without being logged. >oF Nope, I rebuilt the System Disk when we went to 7.2. It's got loads ofE space. It would have to be something that created a 3GB File and then  released it on reboot!    & >> The only odd message I've seen was:A >> arp, Illegal IRP address used by Hardware Address 00-80-64-15!  >h% >That is generated by TCPIP services.n  A I've just replaced the System Console. It's an oldish VDU but I'm:B clutching at straws a bit.... maybe it was freezing and preventing
 requests ? See how that goes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:39:10 -0500e From: MikeWJ <mjenkins@jcn.net>1 Subject: Re: VLCsn8 Message-ID: <tm3veto8g24v0hdidpiusimutu8bp3u20h@4ax.com>  9 Or you can attach an SZ12 box (SCSI) with bigger drives. e  B I did that as I had 2 RZ57's in an SZ12.  Hooked them up, and made6 one of them the boot drive.  Worked great for 4 years.    , "Barry Treahy, Jr." <treahy@mmaz.com> wrote:   >John Laird wrote: >a3 >> That said, they are very handy portable devices.i >bH >Unless you expect to be carrying the VLC around, why mess with internalO >drives, this does have an external SCSI port and with that you have a lot moreh >options...n >e >Barry   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 18:32:35 GMTl# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.educ> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%+ Message-ID: <9cmvg3$kg9$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>   5 [posted and emailed, if you wish reply just by email]   / Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:  >Bob Koehler wrote:@7 >> Mihali Felipe <mihali@hess.geology.yale.edu> writes:0  3 >> > There can be no meaningful talk about absolutee >> > morality without God.  C I would argue that since our understanding of God is imperfect our .A ability to determine the details of absolute morality is likewisewC imperfect, however, if YHWH, as generally concieved of by ChristianmA theologians exists then an absolute morality of some kind exists.    >> BULL.  J >Agreed. Did these people ever learn that Cartesianism is just a paradigm?  E How does one determine and/or talk about an absolute morality without  an absolute source/reference?.  E I am not a philosophy major and based on your posts over the years I  E consider you (Tim and Bob) to be at least fairly bright* so the aboveI# question is asked in all sincerity.c  D *that is merely a conservative estimate, not an attempt to damn with
 faint praise.-   respectfully yours,- Robert Morphis   ------------------------------    Date: 01 May 2001 13:12:51 -0500& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org>> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%, Message-ID: <m3k8413plo.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  4 On 7 Iyar 5761, system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:  F > You want offensive sigs?  Go read Matt Giwer's.  If it is five lines= > or less I vote for ignoring it unless it is relevant to they
 > discussion.a  
 Hear, hear...  -- e" Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily ***i5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***  -- 8th of Iyar, 5761k --H "Parentheses?  What parentheses? I haven't noticed any parentheses sinceF my first month of Lisp programming.  I like to ask people who complainH about parentheses in Lisp if they are bothered by all the spaces between words in a newspaper..."     -- Kenny Tilton <tilt@liii.com>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:09:59 -0700a! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com > Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%D Message-ID: <OF312546DE.720ABC47-ON88256A3F.006E857A@foundation.com>  F All it requires is a premise, or group of premises that you hold to beI true, from which you can derive a set of values. Exactly the same conceptmF as the religious view, it would appear though that there are religiousJ people who cannot concieve of such a thing without needlessly tacking on a god or two.d   Shane/          7 system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu on 05/01/2001 11:32:35 AMt  / Please respond to system@niuhep.physics.niu.edut   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:r  ? Subject:  Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%n    5 [posted and emailed, if you wish reply just by email]   / Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes:t >Bob Koehler wrote:.7 >> Mihali Felipe <mihali@hess.geology.yale.edu> writes:o  3 >> > There can be no meaningful talk about absolutei >> > morality without God.  B I would argue that since our understanding of God is imperfect ourA ability to determine the details of absolute morality is likewiserC imperfect, however, if YHWH, as generally concieved of by Christian A theologians exists then an absolute morality of some kind exists.f   >> BULL.  J >Agreed. Did these people ever learn that Cartesianism is just a paradigm?  E How does one determine and/or talk about an absolute morality withouto an absolute source/reference?-  D I am not a philosophy major and based on your posts over the years IE consider you (Tim and Bob) to be at least fairly bright* so the aboveD# question is asked in all sincerity.   D *that is merely a conservative estimate, not an attempt to damn with
 faint praise.<   respectfully yours,e Robert Morphis   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 20:50:51 GMTr# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edue> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%+ Message-ID: <9cn7jb$nef$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>   - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:n& >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:0 >> young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:( >>>system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:  y8 >>>	[] regarding the view of Scriptural inerrancy, which- >>>	part of the Bible do you disagree with?  n  gD >> I take Genesis chapters 1 through 11 to be God's truth translated8 >> by the cultural milieu of the priests who wrote them.  . >	That runs counter to what Scripture teaches.   I disagree.e  ; http://www.physics.niu.edu/~morphis/evolution/metaphor.html-  C >> When Jesus sends the Apostles out into the countryside the three C >> synoptics give different instructions.  It is a trivial example,1  >> but argues against dictation. > C >	We could tear up a lot of time digging for inaccuracies.  Doesn't # >	mean what was written isn't true.i  G There are three descriptions of what all the evidence indicates are the H same relatively mundane, non-metaphorical event.  They all disagree with@ each other.  Perhaps God wants us to look for and emphasize the G commonalities, or perhaps, just perhaps, he didn't dictate those versesi word for word.  F >> There are also other issues involved, e.g. just because it is truthF >> does not mean we understand it (even if we do correctly understand 7 >> the individual words, which is not always the case).e  L >    But you can't overlook the ministry of the Holy Spirit in understanding >    what Scripture teaches...  ' Out of curiousity, are you a Calvinist?F  A I am not and IMHO, with some scriptural support, the Holy Spirit c? generally provides gentle guidence, it does not usually providef fully formed exegesis.  : http://www.physics.niu.edu/~morphis/evolution/disprove.txt# discusses this to a certain extent.n   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 20:59:37 GMT # From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu > Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%+ Message-ID: <9cn83p$nef$2@husk.cso.niu.edu>-  0 "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:7 >Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in messageT  G >> Scripture can't be understood nor accepted without the Spirit of GodhA >> being involved.  I would encourage you to read and re-read thee >> first 10 chapters of John.   K >Please explain to us this theoretical "Spirit of God" that is required for  >us to make a logical decision.   2 You aren't being asked to make a logical decision.   []H >And why do I need the "Spirit of God" to accept or understand what some >human monk wrote millenia ago?i  ; With the possible exception of Revelation none of the booksl> of the New Testiment were written by anyone resembling a monk.. I am less familiar with the Hebrew scriptures.   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 21:12:49 GMTF# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.edua> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%+ Message-ID: <9cn8sh$nef$3@husk.cso.niu.edu>M  / Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com> writes:  >Rob Young wrote:n  H >> The word inspiration literally means "God-breathed" in the Greek. AndF >> because Scripture is breathed out by God, it is true and inerrant. $ >> Consider the following syllogism: >>0 >>      Major Premise: God is true (Romans 3:4). >>H >>      Minor Premise: God breathed out the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16). >>D >>      Conclusion: Therefore, the Scriptures are true (John 17:17). >vL >Major fallacy: the translation of a contemporary word in one language basedK >upon it's roots in a foreign language not used in the creation of the text.0 >in question as the basis of a logical argument.   <sigh> o  I I guess its not as if I've never jumped in with both feet when I was both  sure of myself and wrong.m  D The New Testiment, which is where all of Rob's references came from, was written in Greek..  D The bracketed numbers below are a side effect of copying off of lynx" with the link numbering activated.      2 Timothy 3     n    3:16i>           [50]All [51]Scripture is [52]inspired by [53]God and<           [54]profitable for [55]teaching, for reproof , for@           [56]correction, for [57]training in [58]righteousness;  9 The transliterated original language word for "inspired" f1 is "Theopneustos".  Theo (e.g. theology) => God, l, pneustos (e.g. pneumatic tires) => breathed.  &    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon  /     Strong's Number:   2315  [42]Browse Lexicono    Original Word Word OriginG    qeovpneusto from ([43]2316) and a presumed derivative of ([44]4154) %    Transliterated Word [45]TDNT Entryu    Theopneustos 6:453,876 $    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech-    theh-op'-nyoo-stos  [46][LINK]   Adjective0     Definition     1. inspired by God*          a. the contents of the scriptures  /     Strong's Number:   2316  [42]Browse Lexicon     Original Word Word OriginI    qeov of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ([43]3588)) the0    supreme DivinityE%    Transliterated Word [44]TDNT Entry     Theos 3:65,3225$    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech(    theh'-os  [45][LINK]   Noun Masculine     Definition@     1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities     2. the Godhead, trinity1;          a. God the Father, the first person in the trinity 4          b. Christ, the second person of the trinity8          c. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity&     3. spoken of the only and true God'          a. refers to the things of GodD6          b. his counsels, interests, things due to himG     4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him4        in any wayB.          a. God's representative or viceregent*               1. of magistrates and judges    /     Strong's Number:   4154  [42]Browse Lexiconu    Original Word Word Origin    pnevw a root word%    Transliterated Word [43]TDNT Entry     Pneo 6:452,876 $    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech    pneh'-o  [44][LINK]   Verb      Definition     1. to breathe, to blow          a. of the winda   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 21:16:30 GMTq# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.eduh> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%+ Message-ID: <9cn93e$nef$4@husk.cso.niu.edu>i  # Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: 8 >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu on 05/01/2001 11:32:35 AM  G >>How does one determine and/or talk about an absolute morality without  >>an absolute source/reference?-  G >All it requires is a premise, or group of premises that you hold to bev3 >true, from which you can derive a set of values.[]    Shane, c@ your definition of "absolute" appears to be completely different
 from mine.   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:27:13 -0700t! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.comS> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%D Message-ID: <OF85CC4735.5F64C6A9-ON88256A3F.0075AAA7@foundation.com>  J If you hold one thing absolutely true, in the way of a christian believingI god to exist, it is possible to derive further absolute truths from that.b@ The original premise does not have to be the existance of a god.   Shane           7 system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu on 05/01/2001 02:16:30 PMl  / Please respond to system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu,   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi cc:u  ? Subject:  Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%p    # Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes: 8 >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu on 05/01/2001 11:32:35 AM  G >>How does one determine and/or talk about an absolute morality without  >>an absolute source/reference?e  G >All it requires is a premise, or group of premises that you hold to bee3 >true, from which you can derive a set of values.[]e   Shane,@ your definition of "absolute" appears to be completely different
 from mine.   Robert Morphis   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:41:05 -04002 From: Mihali Felipe <mihali@hess.geology.yale.edu>> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%M Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10105011738420.24820-100000@rock.geology.yale.edu>w  H Sorry to change the (exciting) topic but are any of you members of ASA?    http://asa.calvin.edu/    2 On 1 May 2001 system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:"( > >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:2 > >> young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:* > >>>system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:     - Mihali 	a@ +-------------------------------------+------------------------+@ | Mihali Felipe                       | mihali.felipe@yale.edu |@ | Yale University                     | OFFC (203)432-9808     |@ | Department of Geology and Geophysics| FAX  (203)432-3134     |@ | Box 208109                          |                        |@ | New Haven, CT  06520-8109           |                        |@ +-------------------------------------+------------------------+   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:52:14 -04002 From: Mihali Felipe <mihali@hess.geology.yale.edu>> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%M Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10105011742421.24820-100000@rock.geology.yale.edu>o  2 On 1 May 2001 system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:% > Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes:l: > >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu on 05/01/2001 11:32:35 AM > I > >>How does one determine and/or talk about an absolute morality without8! > >>an absolute source/reference?P > I > >All it requires is a premise, or group of premises that you hold to be35 > >true, from which you can derive a set of values.[]j > I > Shane, your definition of "absolute" appears to be completely different7 > from mine.  E He seems to use "absolute morality" to mean "moral firm convictions",d0 which is obviously an entirely different thing.      - Mihali 	n@ +-------------------------------------+------------------------+@ | Mihali Felipe                       | mihali.felipe@yale.edu |@ | Yale University                     | OFFC (203)432-9808     |@ | Department of Geology and Geophysics| FAX  (203)432-3134     |@ | Box 208109                          |                        |@ | New Haven, CT  06520-8109           |                        |@ +-------------------------------------+------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 04:01:19 GMTw. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%< Message-ID: <jELH6.47926$U4.11540138@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  0 <system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote in message% news:9cn8sh$nef$3@husk.cso.niu.edu...  :t@ >           [50]All [51]Scripture is [52]inspired by [53]God and> >           [54]profitable for [55]teaching, for reproof , forB >           [56]correction, for [57]training in [58]righteousness;  H Ah, excellent.  So, where is the proof that "scripture" was written by aE god?  I've only seen books written by women and men, inspired by manyeL things.  I would propose that your writings are inspired by your belief in a* god, but that does not prove there is one.   Seeking simple proof,b Aarona --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/- "It's the marketing, stupid!" (Terry Shannon)w   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 04:17:32 GMT-. From: "Alphaman" <alphaman64@nixspam-home.com>> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%< Message-ID: <wTLH6.47962$U4.11553422@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  H <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message news:OF85CC4735.5F64C6A9-L > If you hold one thing absolutely true, in the way of a christian believingK > god to exist, it is possible to derive further absolute truths from that.rB > The original premise does not have to be the existance of a god.   Shane,  J Aren't you narrowing your perspective excessively?  Christians are a smallI percentage of the religions on this planet (~30% last time I checked).  IeK agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think the conversation shouldaI be directed at just one sect, even if Christians seem to be the ones most:J likely to try to force their beliefs on others (i.e., "convert heathens").K Christians specifically believe that a man named Jesus Christ was the childaH of a god; there are many other religions that believe in god(s) and holdI those personal beliefs to be the foundation of their religions' "absolutee truths".  ? I just don't want to come across as picking on Christians only.o   Aaron  --> Aaron Sakovich  http://members.home.net/sakovich/alphaman.html> Make April 15 just another day:        http://www.fairtax.org/   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 19:23:45 -0500i+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)k> Subject: Re: [OT] RE: 80% is Good Enough for M$. Now it's 100%3 Message-ID: <uooxolXTSgjP@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  Q In article <9cn7jb$nef$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>, system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes:n/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:y   > M >>    But you can't overlook the ministry of the Holy Spirit in understanding* >>    what Scripture teaches...  > ) > Out of curiousity, are you a Calvinist?a >   6 	Getting technical on us now... but the answer is yes!  C > I am not and IMHO, with some scriptural support, the Holy Spirit  A > generally provides gentle guidence, it does not usually providem > fully formed exegesis.  ; 	Yes.  Didn't intend to convey that.  Thought the Scriptual4! 	references supported themselves.I  < > http://www.physics.niu.edu/~morphis/evolution/disprove.txt% > discusses this to a certain extent.   
 	Interesting.    				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 01 May 2001 13:11:30 -0500& From: Charles Sebold <sebold@lcms.org> Subject: Re: [OT] Religion, Message-ID: <m3oftd3pnx.fsf@sebold.lcms.org>  ! On 8 Iyar 5761, Alan Greig wrote:   F > Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. IC > have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share thatnF > knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defendB > the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that: > Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.  > H > I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other specific( > Biblical laws and how to follow them.   ( I know I shouldn't get into this, but...  G The majority of laws and possible infractions you quote here apply only3/ to people who fit most or all of the following:a   a.) Descendants of Israels  b.) Living in the land of Israel: c.) With a functioning Sanhedrin (judicial body of elders), d.) With a functioning Temple and priesthood  & (D) has not been possible since 70 CE.  C Either the context, or the actual text, for most of them determinestF whether they apply; the original author of that list conveniently leftH out both the intended audience and the surrounding text.  Even the BibleC does not claim that every commandment applies to every person everygH time; only people ignorant of the Torah say that (and their detractors).A Jews believe that, to Gentiles, generally only what they call thebH "Noachide" (referring to children of Noah) commandments apply, which areF roughly the main person-to-person subset of the Ten Commandments + "noC idolatry" + "don't eat the flesh of a living animal" (which usuallyiG translates, "no cruelty to animals, no blood-drinking").  Notably, thiskA is pretty much the subset that James and the Apostles adopted forh= Gentiles who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, in Acts 15.k  F Sorry to add to the noise; I just can't let this oft-repeated list get by without comment.r  H (Disclaimer:  I'm not Jewish (and I only work for the Lutheran Church, I@ am not a Lutheran), but I have spent the last few years studying rabbinic/Talmudic literature.) -- a" Charles Sebold, Systems Specialist$ LCMS - Office of Information Systems5 *** Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily ***r5 *** those of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod ***h -- 8th of Iyar, 5761p --G The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the Devil's own satanic  herd!1  2  -- Lord Edmund Blackadder, "Blackadder II: Money"   ------------------------------   Date: 1 May 2001 19:03:53 GMTs# From: system@niuhep.physics.niu.eduu Subject: Re: [OT] Religion+ Message-ID: <9cn1ap$lcl$2@husk.cso.niu.edu>i  ` In article <inuset8ksuhovdu69dp06cemaskdq33iah@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:E >On 30 Apr 2001 13:08:18 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h >wrote:t >  >  >>; >>	You can quickly de-volve to a bizarre belief system witht- >>	under-pinnings in anti-Christian teaching:h >u0 >Bizarre belief system? How about the following:  C I first saw the following as a slam against Dr. Laura, what followsw; is a slightly editted version of an earlier response by me.e  A I have little use for Laura Schlessinger but the people who wrotenH these comments cite the wrong verses and demonstrate a lack of knowledge2 of Biblical Scholarship, Judaism and Christianity.  E Many of the laws in the Torah strictly apply to the Jews, though some'B of them apply to sojourners within the nation of the Jews.  If youC choose to live in an explicitly theocratic state, then yes, you areh3 subject to those laws, including the death penalty.u  C From a Christian perspective (which is not Dr. Laura's perspective,pA I don't know how she handles slavery and stoning for breaking theaF Sabbath) at least some of the regulations of the Law are a recognitionC of the Jews' (and our own) hard-heartedness and attempt to regulatevA and minimize the damage done.  As per Jesus' teaching on divorce.o  D Out of 7 attempts in the Dear Dr. Laura Letter to attack Judaism andF the Torah there were at least 3 outright errors compared to two pointsJ that are genuinely  disturbing to modern Christians and Jews : the idea ofJ women as chattel and the  imposition of the death penalty for breaking theI Sabbath and one idea  that is at least somewhat disturbing: that only thet+ physically perfect  may approach the altar.-  , You don't make a sacrifice in your backyard,, You don't have sex with just any woman meet,D The death penalty is not to be carried out on individual initiative.  E >Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. IxB >have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share thatE >knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defendhA >the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that 9 >Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.    F If anybody wants to get into a serious discussion about what the Bible: says or doesn't say about homosexuality, drop me a line at morphis@physics.niu.edu   G >I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other specifice' >Biblical laws and how to follow them. h  G >   When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates aeI >   pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours.eH >   They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with	 >   this?0  A No Temple, no sacrifice.  If you were a Samaritan you would go to[E a mountain top which would solve the odor problem.  In any case *you*e@ wouldn't do a sacrifice, a priest would, and they wouldn't do it in your backyard.g  B Out of curiousity, what do they do when other neighbors have BBQs?  D >   I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in >   Exodus 21:7. []n  F As it allows for, not suggests.  This is an extention of the idea thatI a father determines his daughter's husband.  I'm not defending it, simplyi explaining it.  H >   I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in herJ >   period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how@ >   do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.  E You are only supposed to have sex with your wife, if you can't figureo it out you are a sad case.  E >   Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that areoH >   around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but# >   not Canadians. Can you clarify?c  F Since neither sell slaves and since kidnapping is forbidden it doesn't apply to either.  C The Rabbis consider this to apply only to the specific nations that B surrounded Israel at the time the Torah was written and applied toH them because of their sinfulness.  Those nations are no longer existant.  I >   I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2fG >   clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated tom >   kill him myself?  B No.  To apply the death penalty requires witnesses and a judgement1 made at the Temple.  No Temple, no death penalty.r  B >   A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an >   abomination (Lev. 10:10),d  H Lev 11 not Lev 10, and not shellfish but "whatever is in the seas and inH the rivers that does not have fins and scales" which includes but is not restricted to shellfish.  # >   it is a lesser abomination than 6 >   homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?  * FWIW, the Hebrew words used are different.  E Given that Lev. 18 and 20 probably describe homosexuality involved intE religious practices I would say that *that* homosexuality is probablye8 viewed with far greater abhorance than eating shellfish.  J >   Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have aI >   defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does B >   my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?  G Seeing as the Temple no longer exists the point is moot.  But no, thereyG is no wiggle room, only the physically perfect may approach the holy ofsB holies.  So you and I can't be Temple Priests or Air Force Pilots.  G >   I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident E >   you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is  >   eternal and unchanging.u  B It is eternal, whether we understand it (which you clearly do not)F or whether all parts of it still apply or were passed on perfectly are different questions.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.244 ************************