1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 30 May 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 297       Contents:, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, RE: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun, Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  RE: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations O Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive O Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive O Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive O Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive O Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive P Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive ! Apache WebServer - How do I query % Re: Apache WebServer - How do I query 8 Back to me whinning about CA (Was Re: disk benchmarking) Re: Batch jobs Re: Batch jobs Re: can't take a WIS, can you?. Re: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systems. Re: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systems Re: Debugging memory leaks. # DECEvent, WEBESs - what's going on? > Re: Decnet Phase IV - Circuit EWA-1, Line synchronization lost Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking  Re: disk benchmarking 7 Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations ; Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations ; Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations ; Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations ; Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations $ Re: HSDSA Scrip in a Batch Procedure$ RE: HSDSA Scrip in a Batch Procedure hszterm software Re: hszterm software Re: hszterm software hz70 throughput  Re: IRCD for VMS Re: IRCD for VMS Re: IRCD for VMS# O.T.  (but interesting) SUNW vs CPQ 2 OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offer6 Re: OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offer6 Re: OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offer. Re: OpenVMS locked up - How do I find out why?. Re: OpenVMS locked up - How do I find out why?5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 RE: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS 5 RE: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS ! Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS ! Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS ! Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS D Re: Presentation Collateral From VMS Technical Update Days in London Re: Rambus loses another one Re: Rambus loses another one Re: Rambus loses another one Re: Rambus loses another one Re: The future of VMS  VAX 8650 boot failure . Re: Very odd:  Init/erase is controller-based? vms Emulation on NT  Re: vms Emulation on NT  Re: VMS Home Automation : Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations): Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations) Re: VMS password cracking # VMS price increases, rumor or fact? & Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware question& Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware question& Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware question& Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware question Writing a MAIL script  Re: Writing a MAIL script + Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS / Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:29:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B13EA86.EB00B200@videotron.ca>   andrew harrison wrote: > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely.  K Why not ? Sun would be able to cannabalise Compaq's microsoft alliances and M operations and focus on *real* enterprise solutions. It would be a major kick M in the ass to Bill Gates since Compaq would then become a rival to Microsoft.   H Sun would gain access to Alpha which it could market (and use on its ownI systems) and show a clear lead in technology over those that are based on $ Intel's delayed 64 bit architecture.  J Compaq has now shown that they lack the vision and energy to leverage whatM they got from Digital. It is time to have someone else pick up the pieces and  make the most of it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:15:11 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun ' Message-ID: <3B13F53F.4C55D9C9@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > andrew harrison wrote:  > > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely. > M > Why not ? Sun would be able to cannabalise Compaq's microsoft alliances and O > operations and focus on *real* enterprise solutions. It would be a major kick O > in the ass to Bill Gates since Compaq would then become a rival to Microsoft.  > J > Sun would gain access to Alpha which it could market (and use on its ownK > systems) and show a clear lead in technology over those that are based on & > Intel's delayed 64 bit architecture. > L > Compaq has now shown that they lack the vision and energy to leverage whatO > they got from Digital. It is time to have someone else pick up the pieces and  > make the most of it.  D I beg the OVMS Faithful to forgive me for such heresy, but I believeH that if things came to such a pass, then it would be best for Sun to buyG OVMS and the Alpha product line and let the remains of Compaq (fail to)  succeed on its own (de)merit.   C OVMS needs an owner who is not beholden to the ruler of The Redmond F Empire, nor to the Empire itself. It's owners should look him straightA in the eye and not flinch when announcing a challenge to BGware's 
 dominance.  G Yes, certain benefits have been gained by playing ball with the Redmomd D bullies. Of late, however, their monopolistic tactics have become soF intolerable that even the Justice Department has seen fit to intervene% (much too little and years too late).   G UN*X (esp. Solaris) and Linux have done very well without BG, thank you F very much. It's well past the time when VMS should give BG the air andD "play nice" where the Redmondites issue their edict, "Our way or the
 highway!".   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:22:15 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun < Message-ID: <HFSQ6.7340$QP6.4632513@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>   It was written...   " > > > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely. > > K > > Why not ? Sun would be able to cannabalise Compaq's microsoft alliances  and L > > operations and focus on *real* enterprise solutions. It would be a major kickF > > in the ass to Bill Gates since Compaq would then become a rival to
 Microsoft. > > L > > Sun would gain access to Alpha which it could market (and use on its ownJ > > systems) and show a clear lead in technology over those that are based on( > > Intel's delayed 64 bit architecture.  J Truth be told, Digital ported Solaris to Alpha back in the mid-90s just toK prove it could be done. And there were 1995 backchannel discussions between E the two vendors re: Digital adopting--and enhancing--Solaris, and Sun  adopting Alpha.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:37:39 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> 5 Subject: RE: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EB5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  F > I beg the OVMS Faithful to forgive me for such heresy, but I believe@ > that if things came to such a pass, then it would be best for  > Sun to buy@ > OVMS and the Alpha product line and let the remains of Compaq  > (fail to)  > succeed on its own (de)merit.   J Not wanting to be a prophet of doom here, I will say that if that happens,L I'd be happy to see Tandem break off along with VMS/Alpha.  I wonder whetherJ Compaq, being as they are, a peesee company, can handle them.  I certainly= still have my share of problems with the way they handle VMS.   K On the other hand, maybe someday they'll have a moment of enlightenment and H start selling Alpha/Tandem boxes for the same miniscule profit that they sell peesees... ;)   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:21:48 -0300 ) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun L Message-ID: <OFE0CA4AB9.4E15050D-ON03256A5B.006A1D15@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>   People  J I believe Sun will not buy Compaq or HP will not buy Compaq .... should be easier for IBM to buy Compaq but ....    J May be will  happen with Compaq what happened between Cabletron and DNPG - SPLIT ! ! !   K I imagine a Compaq (Intel + iPaq) and a High Performance Group  with Alphas 
 and Tandem in  another Company .....      Regards    FC        B "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> em 29/05/2001 16:15:11  = Favor responder a "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>              Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       5 Assunto: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun      JF Mezei wrote:  >  > andrew harrison wrote:  > > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely. > I > Why not ? Sun would be able to cannabalise Compaq's microsoft alliances  and J > operations and focus on *real* enterprise solutions. It would be a major kickD > in the ass to Bill Gates since Compaq would then become a rival to
 Microsoft. > J > Sun would gain access to Alpha which it could market (and use on its ownK > systems) and show a clear lead in technology over those that are based on & > Intel's delayed 64 bit architecture. > G > Compaq has now shown that they lack the vision and energy to leverage  whatK > they got from Digital. It is time to have someone else pick up the pieces  and  > make the most of it.  D I beg the OVMS Faithful to forgive me for such heresy, but I believeH that if things came to such a pass, then it would be best for Sun to buyG OVMS and the Alpha product line and let the remains of Compaq (fail to)  succeed on its own (de)merit.   C OVMS needs an owner who is not beholden to the ruler of The Redmond F Empire, nor to the Empire itself. It's owners should look him straightA in the eye and not flinch when announcing a challenge to BGware's 
 dominance.  G Yes, certain benefits have been gained by playing ball with the Redmomd D bullies. Of late, however, their monopolistic tactics have become soF intolerable that even the Justice Department has seen fit to intervene% (much too little and years too late).   G UN*X (esp. Solaris) and Linux have done very well without BG, thank you F very much. It's well past the time when VMS should give BG the air andD "play nice" where the Redmondites issue their edict, "Our way or the
 highway!".   -- David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:16:03 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B141193.5CFC3A74@infopuls.com>   andrew harrison wrote: >  > Christof Brass wrote:  > >  > > Alan Greig wrote:  > > 
 > > [SNIP] > > K > > > By the way, I haven't got mine yet due to a cock-up somewhere but the F > > > photo on the front of the VMS 7.3 carton and manuals shows a guyC > > > looking at monitors all with the Sun logo... There has been a I > > > suggestion to keep this out of c.o.v. but I really don't see how it K > > > can be covered up forever so I'll do the dirty - whoever's fault this K > > > was. I know DII COE is effectively Sloaris compatibility but I didn't / > > > realize it stretched as far as the logos!  > > >  > > > --
 > > > Alan > > A > > I knew that SUN had plans of a major change but that they are B > > preparing for beeing taken over by Compaq is much more I couldC > > think of. And that Compaq is already that far to reveal this is  > > more than a surprise. ;-)  > : > Since Sun's market cap is currently 2.4 x that of Compaq6 > the idea of Compaq buying Sun is probably out of the > question.  >  > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely. > 1 > The Sun Logos on an OpenVMS package, probably a  > cock-up on Compaqs part. > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architect    Sorry, this was ironic.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:22:52 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> 5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sun , Message-ID: <3B14132C.C49602F1@infopuls.com>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  >  > It was written...  > $ > > > > Sun buying Compaq, unlikely. > > > M > > > Why not ? Sun would be able to cannabalise Compaq's microsoft alliances  > and N > > > operations and focus on *real* enterprise solutions. It would be a major > kickH > > > in the ass to Bill Gates since Compaq would then become a rival to > Microsoft. > > > N > > > Sun would gain access to Alpha which it could market (and use on its ownL > > > systems) and show a clear lead in technology over those that are based > on* > > > Intel's delayed 64 bit architecture. > L > Truth be told, Digital ported Solaris to Alpha back in the mid-90s just toM > prove it could be done. And there were 1995 backchannel discussions between G > the two vendors re: Digital adopting--and enhancing--Solaris, and Sun  > adopting Alpha.   ? This really makes sense. The UltraSPARC is ultra slow and ultra < expensive. I don't know if there is a chip around with lower performance/price ratio.  > The stupidest thing happened is the waste of engineering power? and time to ruin VMS with UNIX ... i.e. DII COE whic is Sloaris ? compatibility bug for fub like Hoff Hoffman very precicely said % at the Zurich Technical Update event.   ? Normally you don't need to run UNIX apps on VMS. You simply buy > a Tru64 or a Sloaris/Alpha box. If you really want to run both< on the same box you should use something like Galaxy. To put= engineering power in that kind of HW development is more thano appropriate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:25:21 +0200-) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>q5 Subject: Re: "Talk Baq" to Compaq - or perhaps to Sunh, Message-ID: <3B1413C1.5F381744@infopuls.com>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] > H > > I beg the OVMS Faithful to forgive me for such heresy, but I believeA > > that if things came to such a pass, then it would be best forn > > Sun to buyA > > OVMS and the Alpha product line and let the remains of Compaqb
 > > (fail to)i! > > succeed on its own (de)merit.n > L > Not wanting to be a prophet of doom here, I will say that if that happens,N > I'd be happy to see Tandem break off along with VMS/Alpha.  I wonder whetherL > Compaq, being as they are, a peesee company, can handle them.  I certainly? > still have my share of problems with the way they handle VMS.A > M > On the other hand, maybe someday they'll have a moment of enlightenment andlJ > start selling Alpha/Tandem boxes for the same miniscule profit that they > sell peesees... ;) > 
 > Regards, >  > Chrise > # > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >  > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");t > 'w  @ At least they got one very important thing right: consolidation,? i.e. bring NSK on Alpha. What I like to see is a complete ranger9 of Alpha processors that we can have cheap and low energyp consuming chips for laptops.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:59:33 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS WorkstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2905011359340001@user-2ive760.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <3B13BDB0.BC7CDD5D@bbc.co.uk>, tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk wrote:   > Robert Deininger wrote:   J > > Have you seen the "LabView" products (from National Instruments IIRC)?K > > They lean heavily on these graphical knobs and sliders and stuff.  It'snF > > fairly expensive, slower than cold molasses, and truely bizzare toA > > program.  It runs on windoze, Macs, and a few unixes I think.  > >  > G > aw, don't remind me please. It doesn;t sound like the product has gotV
 any better > since the mid-90's.n5 > Give me a MicroVAX and a CAMAC interface anyday :-)t    E You're right.  The fellows who program this stuff in our group almosthG always end up needing a separate peecee for each labview program.  Theys5 are resource hogs, and they don't play well together.   G We wouldn't even need a microvax.  Most of the hardware is available ingI PCI.  But there aren't any off-the-shelf device drivers in most cases.  AnJ little alphastation could replace a dozen peecees running labview, and not even break a sweat.O   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:04:08 +0100h- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>.( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations) Message-ID: <3B13E498.DA937ABD@bbc.co.uk>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:    >s >eJ > Still, the current mechanism appears to be a strong deterrent to ad hoc,& > grassroots apps development efforts.  ) This statement I do agree with. Terry :-)h   --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk   A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofe MedAS or the BBC.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:13:31 -0700e! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com ( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS WorkstationsD Message-ID: <OF33DF0B50.9A70E062-ON88256A5B.0063F32B@foundation.com>  K Then perhaps a one-time-only conversion fee. Really, it seems a bad idea to J me to stop something being sold commercially if the author first worked onI it under the hobbyist licence. If I start writing a tool for myself, then)E realise it's marketable, I'd like some way to legally sell it. Compaqo< should want me to, too. They need more apps on the platform.   Shaneo          J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) on 05/25/2001 05:45:00 PM  E Please respond to Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)M   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  cc:a  ) Subject:  Re: Affordable VMS Workstationsr    D In article <OFCB6410E7.70069AAA-ON88256A57.006D2EA1@foundation.com>,# Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes:d >eH > Now here's a hell of an idea. How about Compaq putting a clause in theF > hobbyist licence that if somebody wants to sell something they wrote under.1 > hobbyist, they have to pay royalties to Compaq?-  E Royalty accounting is a painful and expensive process (the accounting0C and the lawyering, not the royalties themselves).  It ties down thek vendor's licensing policies.   ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 18:07:14 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)o( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations, Message-ID: <9f0ogi$1chg$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3B13D167.12EF4127@bbc.co.uk>, 0  Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk> writes: |>   |>   |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:o |>  , |> > In article <3B13C516.D029B887@fsi.net>,9 |> >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:e |> > |> Tim Llewellyn wrote:	 |> > |> >dT |> > |> > I personally favour the following approach. Develop version 1 on hobbyiest |> > |> > licencesU |> > |> > if thats all you have. Release it as freeware. Hold back a few features. Ife |> > |> > sufficientW |> > |> > interest is generated then get on CSA program and develop commercial product.  |> > |>  |> > |> THREE CHEERS FOR TIM!!!  |> > |>: |> > |> Excellent idea!!!  |> >I |> > Except for the fact that if your original intent was the development L |> > of a potentially commercial product you are in violation of the licenseI |> > agreement for the Hobbyist program.   I have no doubt that if peoplerJ |> > start using the hobbyist program for this kind of activity it will go
 |> > away. |> > |> tJ |> Really? Is the potential commerciality enough to void hobbiest licence?N |> OK, them maybe CSA is the way to go. However, as has been pointed out, thisV |> is cheap for organizations but not so for individuals trying to make some cash from5 |> VMS because all the decent VMS jobs are drying up.h  9 I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, however......  F The question was not about potential commerciality.  The statement wasE release Version 1.0 as crippleware and then if there is interest sellbG the real thing.  That sounds like commercial intent from the very start 0 to me.  And I would bet to most lawyers as well.  B Considering that the same restrictions do not exist in the case ofA Unix software, where do you think all the development is going tomC take place??  Mere observation of the current state of the industry  should bear this out.c   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 18:11:50 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations, Message-ID: <9f0op6$1chg$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  L In article <OF83591113.9C13DCC4-ON03256A5B.005C4547@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,,  fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:
 |> Depends |> oK |> If he begins to sale $$$ this product he can buy a DS10 with OpenVMS andd |> all the layred products.*  B Probably not.  The first thing that the lawyers would do is get anA injunction preventing the sale of the product as well as tying upaD any of the money you have already collected.  Leaving you to try andD defend your actions from your own personal finances.  Everybody hereE using the Hobbyist program with a enough spare scratch to take on any"" corporate lawyer raise your hand!!   bill   -- qJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:20:04 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations< Message-ID: <oLRQ6.7318$QP6.4624634@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  . <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message> news:OF33DF0B50.9A70E062-ON88256A5B.0063F32B@foundation.com... >eJ > Then perhaps a one-time-only conversion fee. Really, it seems a bad idea toL > me to stop something being sold commercially if the author first worked onK > it under the hobbyist licence. If I start writing a tool for myself, then-G > realise it's marketable, I'd like some way to legally sell it. Compaq > > should want me to, too. They need more apps on the platform. >m  I But of course! Somehow I suspect that if an enterprising hobbyist were tosH develop an app, then obtain CSA status, and then release the app, CompaqG wouldn't ask many questions as to the parentage of the app in question!n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:54:50 -0500b1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations' Message-ID: <3B13F07A.AFD51970@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:i > 0 > <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message@ > news:OF33DF0B50.9A70E062-ON88256A5B.0063F32B@foundation.com... > >eL > > Then perhaps a one-time-only conversion fee. Really, it seems a bad idea > toN > > me to stop something being sold commercially if the author first worked onM > > it under the hobbyist licence. If I start writing a tool for myself, thendI > > realise it's marketable, I'd like some way to legally sell it. Compaqb@ > > should want me to, too. They need more apps on the platform. > >a > K > But of course! Somehow I suspect that if an enterprising hobbyist were touJ > develop an app, then obtain CSA status, and then release the app, CompaqI > wouldn't ask many questions as to the parentage of the app in question!1  H ...which is, perhaps, at least part of how OVMShobby came into existanceG (I dunno - just speculating). The V1.0 of the OVMSedu license, I think,2F illustrated that legal expertise within Compaq maybe somewhat lacking.. The current discussion seems to bear that out.  G It is possible, if however improbable, that the intent of OVMShobby, athD least in part, was to let the freeware writers have a go in the hopeF that such app.'s would "grow up" to become commercial products. To sayF that the result may have fallen short of the intent is perhaps an echo2 of some things that happened with V1.0 of OVMSedu.  , Dunno - just my 6th sense tingling, I guess.   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.    ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 18:51:23 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations, Message-ID: <9f0r3b$1dt2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  < In article <oLRQ6.7318$QP6.4624634@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,7  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:y |> fL |> But of course! Somehow I suspect that if an enterprising hobbyist were toK |> develop an app, then obtain CSA status, and then release the app, CompaqtJ |> wouldn't ask many questions as to the parentage of the app in question!  D But this sounds like the debate we had here not so long ago over theC supposed educational program.  While this sounds nice, who would be C fool enough to risk it??  If your wrong, somebody gets taken to therD cleaners. And being as Compaq already has a room full of lawyers, itG would cost them nothing to make an example out of the first poor suckerbC to try it. (Well, actually it would cost them a lot, but not in anyO1 tangible way that their managers would ever see.)c   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:06:03 -0400t  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: RE: Affordable VMS Workstations6 Message-ID: <1010529155923.53601C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  - On Tue, 29 May 2001, Christopher Smith wrote:    > > -----Original Message-----6 > > From: Bill Pedersen [mailto:pedersen@ccsscorp.com] > B > > Incorporation is not the issue here.  It is, can you show you  > > have an idea= > > which is interesting.  The folks at CSA want to help get d > > product out there.A > > The licenses are annual so they do not have a big exposure.  r > > But they dosB > > allow those interested in trying to get a new product out the  > > door.  Theyg' > > don't dome inspect your "office"...  > M > But corporations are likely to have the money to shell out for the license. L > An individual is not likely to have as much, all other things being equal, > which they seldom are. > N > I don't have any question about whether the CSA people want to help get appsN > out there for VMS.  My question is, are they prevented by Compaq policy from? > doing so until you've paid <XXXX.XX> for the year's licenses?c >   E TOOOOO many X's.  Last time I saw the price, it was $110 to join CSA,kE and $5xx for the license subscription, which includes the current VMSe@ O/S and Doc CD's, the current LP & DOC condist CD's, and any newD releases during the next year (at least 3 quarterly LP updates) plus4 this year we got both external V7.3 Field test kits.  @ I think the prices have gone up slightly, but I'm sure it's lessB than $750/year.  This is about the same ball park as the Microsoft Developer's stuff.  F Plus you get specialize support, porting help, access to demo systems, and a discount on hardware.   C And they don't send the CSA police around to check on your offices.a    
 > Regards, >  > Chris    -- a John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 20:15:42 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>m( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations. Message-ID: <3b1403af@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  G Well the annual subscription to the OpenVMS Alpha SDK is about $700.00.o  J Now, I have seen people say this is unreasonable.  It this is unreasonableK as an investment in your development in a product, and you have access to anB wide variety of development tools and applications to support thatK development by using this I am perplexed with your plan of development.  It L is sorely underfunded if you expect to succeed in the overall development of# product and business to support it.    --
 Bill Pedersen  CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learningo
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  8 "Christopher Smith" <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in messageF news:3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF0D9D1EAD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com... > > -----Original Message-----6 > > From: Bill Pedersen [mailto:pedersen@ccsscorp.com] > A > > Incorporation is not the issue here.  It is, can you show youh > > have an idea< > > which is interesting.  The folks at CSA want to help get > > product out there.? > > The licenses are annual so they do not have a big exposure.h > > But they dohA > > allow those interested in trying to get a new product out thee > > door.  They ' > > don't dome inspect your "office"...H > D > But corporations are likely to have the money to shell out for the license.L > An individual is not likely to have as much, all other things being equal, > which they seldom are. >tI > I don't have any question about whether the CSA people want to help get  appsI > out there for VMS.  My question is, are they prevented by Compaq policy- from? > doing so until you've paid <XXXX.XX> for the year's licenses?  >m
 > Regards, >s > Chrisn >u# > Christopher Smith, Perl DeveloperC > Amdocs - Champaign, IL >e > /usr/bin/perl -e 'A > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");i > 'e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:04:45 +0200 ) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com>o( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations, Message-ID: <3B140EED.CCF5D408@infopuls.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > N > In article <OF83591113.9C13DCC4-ON03256A5B.005C4547@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,. >  fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes: > |> Depends > |>M > |> If he begins to sale $$$ this product he can buy a DS10 with OpenVMS andb > |> all the layred products.  > D > Probably not.  The first thing that the lawyers would do is get anC > injunction preventing the sale of the product as well as tying uptF > any of the money you have already collected.  Leaving you to try andF > defend your actions from your own personal finances.  Everybody hereG > using the Hobbyist program with a enough spare scratch to take on any $ > corporate lawyer raise your hand!! >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  @ Sorry, but what you're stating here might be correct for the USA: - for the rest of the world it is simply completely wrong.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:00:42 -0700o! From: Shane.F.Smith@healthnet.comA( Subject: Re: Affordable VMS WorkstationsD Message-ID: <OF50DE3BCA.EED6092E-ON88256A5B.00734C12@foundation.com>  G But if you're wrong, I'd almost certainly lose the lawsuit and possiblyo6 large amounts of money. It wouldn't be worth the risk.   Shanes          H "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> on 05/29/2001 11:20:04 AM  @ Please respond to "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como cc:   ) Subject:  Re: Affordable VMS Workstations       . <Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com> wrote in message> news:OF33DF0B50.9A70E062-ON88256A5B.0063F32B@foundation.com... > J > Then perhaps a one-time-only conversion fee. Really, it seems a bad idea toI > me to stop something being sold commercially if the author first workede onK > it under the hobbyist licence. If I start writing a tool for myself, thengG > realise it's marketable, I'd like some way to legally sell it. Compaqx> > should want me to, too. They need more apps on the platform. >y  I But of course! Somehow I suspect that if an enterprising hobbyist were toeH develop an app, then obtain CSA status, and then release the app, CompaqG wouldn't ask many questions as to the parentage of the app in question!-   ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 19:47:06 GMT% From: strpic@bofhlet.net (Vid Strpic):X Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive1 Message-ID: <slrn9h7v5q.jbj.strpic@lorien.elf.hr>c  / Terry C. Shannon said unto us in comp.sys.dec : E > From Dell's announcement of its innovative, enhanced, breakthrough,hM > pushing-the-envelope, advanced leadership functionality IA64 workstation...A > H > Starting at $7,999(a), the Dell Precision Workstation 730 comes with aN > single Intel Itanium processor at 733 MHz, 1 GB SDRAM, Matrox Millenium G450L > graphics card, 18 GB(b) SCSI hard disk drive, and a one-year next-businessL > day onsite service(c). The Dell Precision Workstation 730 is available for- > order today from Dell's direct sales teams.s > + > $8K for an entry-level workstation? Ouch!f  + What OS they plan to run on it?  VMS?    :)c   -- o8  Vid Strpic, IRC:*@Martin, strpic@bofhlet.net, /bin/zsh.5     (I don't speak for my employer, just for myself.)n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:50:00 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>X Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive= Message-ID: <YXTQ6.11043$zl5.3848566@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>n  2 "Vid Strpic" <strpic@bofhlet.net> wrote in message+ news:slrn9h7v5q.jbj.strpic@lorien.elf.hr...n1 > Terry C. Shannon said unto us in comp.sys.dec ::G > > From Dell's announcement of its innovative, enhanced, breakthrough,N@ > > pushing-the-envelope, advanced leadership functionality IA64 workstation... > >eJ > > Starting at $7,999(a), the Dell Precision Workstation 730 comes with aK > > single Intel Itanium processor at 733 MHz, 1 GB SDRAM, Matrox Milleniumt G450@ > > graphics card, 18 GB(b) SCSI hard disk drive, and a one-year
 next-businessvJ > > day onsite service(c). The Dell Precision Workstation 730 is available for / > > order today from Dell's direct sales teams.- > >-- > > $8K for an entry-level workstation? Ouch!0 >4- > What OS they plan to run on it?  VMS?    :)s   Touche!u  J Also, note the memory in this configuration... one would surmise that DellK would want to keep its entry-level price as low as possible, all the betterwE to upsell. The 1GB memory makes we wonder if Itanium is a memory hog.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:12:31 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)X Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More CompetitiveL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2905012012310001@user-2ivea2f.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <slrn9h7v5q.jbj.strpic@lorien.elf.hr>, strpic@bofhlet.net (Vid  Strpic) wrote:  J > > Starting at $7,999(a), the Dell Precision Workstation 730 comes with aP > > single Intel Itanium processor at 733 MHz, 1 GB SDRAM, Matrox Millenium G450N > > graphics card, 18 GB(b) SCSI hard disk drive, and a one-year next-businessN > > day onsite service(c). The Dell Precision Workstation 730 is available for/ > > order today from Dell's direct sales teams.   C Is this thing actually obtainium now?  Or is it just orderium, withv# deliverium some time in the future?t   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:38:48 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>X Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive= Message-ID: <siXQ6.11137$zl5.3956982@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>a  E > Is this thing actually obtainium now?  Or is it just orderium, withc% > deliverium some time in the future?s  C Seems to be a Daze of Future Passed sorta thing. If you want actuali unobtainium, Bailey Has It Now.i  , http://www.claytonbailey.com/unobtainium.htm   ------------------------------   Date: 30 May 01 01:52:58 GMT- From: jason@azure.dstc.edu.au (jason andrade),X Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive) Message-ID: <jason.991187578@dstc.edu.au>a  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  K >Also, note the memory in this configuration... one would surmise that Dell L >would want to keep its entry-level price as low as possible, all the betterF >to upsell. The 1GB memory makes we wonder if Itanium is a memory hog.  H turn back the clock several years.  we bought all our DEC 3000/400s withH 32M of ram.  we very quickly had to upgrade to 64M because "the alpha isF an absolute memory hog with its 64bit stuff, compared to our sparc20s, hp 7xx, intel 486, etc".  G i don't doubt the itanium will need more memory than x86, but i suspectpI the 1G is based more on the sales pitch than any technical consideration.   F marketing have probably realised that trying to pitch the leading edgeE at least to their technical customers makes them look stupid to offeroI the system with 128M of memory.  as it stands, it looks like a reasonablycL rounded out system if you (for whatever reason) decided you had to have one.   -jason   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:39:30 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Affordable VMS Workstations... All of a Sudden Alpha Looks More Competitive .' Message-ID: <3B145D62.3F268DC5@fsi.net>    Robert Deininger wrote:i > K > In article <slrn9h7v5q.jbj.strpic@lorien.elf.hr>, strpic@bofhlet.net (Vid> > Strpic) wrote: > L > > > Starting at $7,999(a), the Dell Precision Workstation 730 comes with aR > > > single Intel Itanium processor at 733 MHz, 1 GB SDRAM, Matrox Millenium G450P > > > graphics card, 18 GB(b) SCSI hard disk drive, and a one-year next-businessP > > > day onsite service(c). The Dell Precision Workstation 730 is available for1 > > > order today from Dell's direct sales teams.e > E > Is this thing actually obtainium now?  Or is it just orderium, withr% > deliverium some time in the future?   ( Actually, I think it's more like Itanic.   --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:56:49 GMTa) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)f* Subject: Apache WebServer - How do I query1 Message-ID: <3b141195.177203264@news.wcc.govt.nz>i   Hi All,a  . Just installed the Apache WebServer under VMS.E Cool, it all works, and after copying some of our documentation I canh see it all.o  A What I want to do is be able to serve the VMS Docs CD Internally.e  ) So, what does the href command look like?   C I'm not quite sure how I'm going to be able to call a device that'sr+ external to the Apache directory Structure.s  @ The CD will be mounted on zippy$dka400:, so I need to be able toF traverse back up from the Apache Server root directory and back to the CD.u tried various things:s: href = "../zippy$dka400:/000000/index.html      through to href = "zippy$dka400/index.htmln	 etc. etc.a  / Clues or pointers to documentation appreciated.s   Many Thanks in Advance,p   Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:04:55 GMTe& From: "Yi Jiang" <yjiang3487@home.com>. Subject: Re: Apache WebServer - How do I query9 Message-ID: <rWVQ6.6326$W02.72610@news1.rdc2.on.home.com>a  H We tried the similiar thing but it did not work. But if you transfer the$ docs to the hard disk, it will work.        6 "Rob Buxton" <rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz> wrote in message+ news:3b141195.177203264@news.wcc.govt.nz...d	 > Hi All,t >e0 > Just installed the Apache WebServer under VMS.G > Cool, it all works, and after copying some of our documentation I cana
 > see it all.  >0C > What I want to do is be able to serve the VMS Docs CD Internally.  >i+ > So, what does the href command look like?d >yE > I'm not quite sure how I'm going to be able to call a device that'st- > external to the Apache directory Structure.O >VB > The CD will be mounted on zippy$dka400:, so I need to be able toH > traverse back up from the Apache Server root directory and back to the > CD.e > tried various things:d< > href = "../zippy$dka400:/000000/index.html      through to! > href = "zippy$dka400/index.html  > etc. etc.y >01 > Clues or pointers to documentation appreciated.l >u > Many Thanks in Advance,f >a > Rob. >k   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:24:13 -0400.- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>eA Subject: Back to me whinning about CA (Was Re: disk benchmarking)o4 Message-ID: <2ISQ6.242440$Z2.2723404@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message,% news:3B13F526.53F5CB69@bigfoot.com...w >...? > By the way, did you ever solve your Global Section Descriptor  problem? Ifu > so, what was it? >...  E Not solved yet. I fired it back to the WEBES people. I already have a C list of 16 problems with the product, so I'm giving up until I hears back from them.n  D But, as they told me during our phone conference, DECEvent is a deadE product, we have to get use to CA if we want to look at the error logr( even if the product is complete garbage.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 12:54:05 -0700' From: c_goudy@hotmail.com (Chris Goudy)G Subject: Re: Batch jobsm= Message-ID: <48f4addd.0105291154.54b3a4f8@posting.google.com>u   Do you get a log from the job?  O If not, you might want to have your job start spitting all of it's output into l$ a log so you can pinpoint the error.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:49:58 +1000n/ From: "Phil Howell" <phowell@snowyhydro.com.au>M Subject: Re: Batch jobsD2 Message-ID: <irXQ6.2578$Yr1.111582@ozemail.com.au>  ? "Thomas nilsen" <Thomas.Nilsen@kverneland.com> wrote in messages1 news:ptMQ6.2889$vu4.285176@news3.oke.nextra.no...cJ > I'm having problems getting a backup script to run proberly from a batch > queue. > L > The backup job will first copy a few directories from one disk to another,+ > and then kick off the actual tape backup.a >aK > But sometimes the script will run fine and complete as expected, and thenn> > the next day it will just stop halfway through the copy job. > L > I've been using an account with system admin priviliges, as well as trying0 > the system account, both with the same result. >i. > Why would such a job stop halfway through??? >t	 > Thanks,  > Thomas Nilsenh >s> are you trying to copy sysuaf and/or rightslist by any chance?E first check the log of the batch job (if you had /log in your submit)rH then check the completion status using accounting ($acc/type=batch/full)D if you replace the copy with backup/log/ignore=(interlock) it shouldC eliminate any file locking problems (and give you a warning messagec if there are any files locked) Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:48:16 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)r' Subject: Re: can't take a WIS, can you?b3 Message-ID: <8IMFYaQIVIHi@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  p In article <009FC880.7C34514B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:K > I use WIS to submit service requests and communicate problems/issues with M > Compaq.  For over a day now, I cannot seem to access any of my present ser-oL > vice requests.  One I submitted is marked as "Solution Found" but I cannotK > access the request.  The browser just sits there and sits there "Waiting - > for reply..."- > K > If there are Compaq folks reading this newsgroup, can you please give them5 > folks responsible for WIS a nudge and wake them up?D >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM 
 >            0Q > city, n., 1. a place where trees are cut down and streets are named after them.s  F I had a problem with WIS late last week.  All the database selections D in the Technical Search area disappeared (except for the base ones, E which don't get you much).  I logged a call with CSC and they called  ? back later in the day and said "Ooops, it should be fixed now".l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:02:20 +0100 , From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c*m>7 Subject: Re: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systemsh3 Message-ID: <9f0v5l$jbh$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>3   Hi,8  * So why are you blaming Compaq and not EDS?  F Maybe Compaq could take this ancillary function (making money) back on board.  G Can anyone guess at the size of the check that Compaq gives EDS *every*y year.    Regards Richard Maher.  > > "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com> em 28/05/2001 19:48:54 >c9 > Favor responder a "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>v >  >  >o >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml >  >s >n5 > Assunto: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systemso >  >e > All, >'F > Maybe someone from COMPAQ who follows this group can assist? (I have talkedJ > with Kerry Main on this subject before, but I am of the opinion it needs > further action)tE > I currently am responsible for our customer base worldwide customere
 > support,E > and in this position one of the things I do is place contracts withy various H > COMPAQ service organisations around the world, for many types of AlphaI > workstation. For eg. US alone is approx $50k per annum. Not the biggest  youtH > may say, but worldwide it ends up a lot of money. Why then are certainJ > COMPAQ countries singularly incapable of performing the most basic salesI > functions for service contracts? I make things easier by only requiring0 NBD J > 9x5 hardware only cover. I sometimes approach the COMPAQ service centres> > directly (eg Austria - excellent service/Germany - ExcellentJ > Service/France - has been poor but now improving slightly) and sometimes > useeI > 3rd party providers to effect my requirements.(for the US) However whennJ > there is a delay or problem, it always traces back to the sales/contract@ > admin dept of the relevant COMPAQ country. For example, the US organisationJ > takes approx 3 weeks to get me a quotation, then once I issue a purchaseJ > order (normally same day) it can be 4 further weeks to get the contract, orJ > even confirmation that the order is being processed! NOT GOOD SERVICE. IF > have the same (to a lesser extent) with Canada (Kerry, sorry but the	 > problemaL > still exists), Australia, Holland to shame but a few. (I can go on) I feelF > that maybe I am not alone and I should bring this problem to generalL > attention. If COMPAQ want to keep customers then they should damn well getK > the staff able to process quotations and orders within a reasonable time.s > AsL > I'm in the UK, I would expect to wait 4 days for a quote from the US, as aI > maximum. Am I being unfair? After all I have money I want to spend with-D > COMPAQ and keep using Alpha's and OpenVMS. The inability of COMPAQJ > sales/contract admin is driving me away from the fine products! If there isK > someone here who can at least bypass organisations like "Global Bid", andIK > bring this to the attention of more senior COMPAQ staff, please feel freet > to@ > pass this on. The situation is starting to become intolerable. >s >n > Andy Proctor% > (reply address is personal address)s@ > Work:(remove the obvious) Andy.Proctor@deleteme.spirentcom.com >V >M >S >. >o >c >  >u >c >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:44:51 GMTt+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>67 Subject: Re: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systemst4 Message-ID: <991172384.324975@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>  L The blame in my opinion lies with COMPAQ. If they employ EDS (Do they in theL US for example?) then it is for them to ensure that EDS do the job properly,K as they are clearly not. If the worldwide contracting services are with EDS K then the top guys at COMPAQ should hold back one of these big cheques untilcC the service provided by EDS is brought to an acceptable level. IMHOe   Andy Proctor  7 "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c*m> wrote in messagel- news:9f0v5l$jbh$1@neptunium.btinternet.com...t > Hi,i >u, > So why are you blaming Compaq and not EDS? >eH > Maybe Compaq could take this ancillary function (making money) back on > board. >aI > Can anyone guess at the size of the check that Compaq gives EDS *every*g > year.r >7 > Regards Richard Maher. >c@ > > "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com> em 28/05/2001 19:48:54 > >o; > > Favor responder a "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>n > >- > >o > >d > >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComA > >r > >i > >A7 > > Assunto: COMPAQ Service Contracts for Alpha Systemst > >3 > >e > > All, > >gH > > Maybe someone from COMPAQ who follows this group can assist? (I have > talkedL > > with Kerry Main on this subject before, but I am of the opinion it needs > > further action)lG > > I currently am responsible for our customer base worldwide customeri > > support,G > > and in this position one of the things I do is place contracts witha	 > various J > > COMPAQ service organisations around the world, for many types of AlphaK > > workstation. For eg. US alone is approx $50k per annum. Not the biggest- > you-J > > may say, but worldwide it ends up a lot of money. Why then are certainL > > COMPAQ countries singularly incapable of performing the most basic salesK > > functions for service contracts? I make things easier by only requiring6 > NBDnL > > 9x5 hardware only cover. I sometimes approach the COMPAQ service centres@ > > directly (eg Austria - excellent service/Germany - ExcellentL > > Service/France - has been poor but now improving slightly) and sometimes > > userK > > 3rd party providers to effect my requirements.(for the US) However when4L > > there is a delay or problem, it always traces back to the sales/contractB > > admin dept of the relevant COMPAQ country. For example, the US > organisationL > > takes approx 3 weeks to get me a quotation, then once I issue a purchaseL > > order (normally same day) it can be 4 further weeks to get the contract, > orL > > even confirmation that the order is being processed! NOT GOOD SERVICE. IH > > have the same (to a lesser extent) with Canada (Kerry, sorry but the > > problem I > > still exists), Australia, Holland to shame but a few. (I can go on) Io feelH > > that maybe I am not alone and I should bring this problem to generalJ > > attention. If COMPAQ want to keep customers then they should damn well get G > > the staff able to process quotations and orders within a reasonable1 time.3 > > AsL > > I'm in the UK, I would expect to wait 4 days for a quote from the US, as a K > > maximum. Am I being unfair? After all I have money I want to spend witheF > > COMPAQ and keep using Alpha's and OpenVMS. The inability of COMPAQL > > sales/contract admin is driving me away from the fine products! If there > isI > > someone here who can at least bypass organisations like "Global Bid",a and H > > bring this to the attention of more senior COMPAQ staff, please feel free > > toB > > pass this on. The situation is starting to become intolerable. > >  > >n > > Andy Proctor' > > (reply address is personal address)lB > > Work:(remove the obvious) Andy.Proctor@deleteme.spirentcom.com > >n > >u > >o > >i > >w > >  > >  > >o > >u > >t >  >i   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 17:00:09 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: Debugging memory leaks.3 Message-ID: <diuLLCtkgewp@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  j In article <c3661f42.0105290915.90eb96b@posting.google.com>, rxp2158@ix.netcom.com (ronald piazza) writes:_ > "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<9f09np$v7e@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>...d; >> "ronald piazza" <rxp2158@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message : >> news:c3661f42.0105290533.291f8ded@posting.google.com... >> n2 >> >     Are there any tools such as purify and/or5 >> > electric fence for finding memory leaks targeted-4 >> > for applications of VMS (AlphaServer) hardware? >> c7 >> The debugger. Take a look at the chapter on the heapk >> analyser. > 3 > I have heard of the heap analyzer.  I am not veryj4 > experienced with it.  Is this the only tools we as3 > VMS developers have to troubleshoot memory leaks?e  A For normal VMS programs, I have never known a need not covered byn@ the heap analyzer.  Why should there be another program for what& is done so well by the heap analyzer ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:46:18 GMTe) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)r, Subject: DECEvent, WEBESs - what's going on?1 Message-ID: <3b14421b.189625426@news.wcc.govt.nz>   
 G'day all,  A Various News items have stated the demise of DECevent, many whileh discussing WEBES.   * So, much ignorance here, what is going on.F We're running DECEvent 3.3, it's particularly flaky on the VAXes and IE have to keep replacing one of the KNL files with the Factory version.t   Has DECEvent come to an end?  
 What's WEBES?o  " Pointers to info much appreciated.   Rob.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:57:50 -0500 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>.G Subject: Re: Decnet Phase IV - Circuit EWA-1, Line synchronization lost:3 Message-ID: <3B13FF3E.A0B8481D@applied-synergy.com>m   Todd Nelson wrote: >  > Hello All, > L > I have a Compaq DS10 Alphaserver running VMS 7.2-1, Decnet Phase IV, TCPIP > v5.0a. > 4 > I keep getting the following sequence of events... >  >                 NCP>J >                 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  29-MAY-2001 11:21:52.19  %%%%%%%%%%%5 >                 Message from user DECNET on MYALPHAi? >                 DECnet event 4.7, circuit down, circuit fault,C >                 From node 1.13 (MYALPHA), 29-MAY-2001 11:21:52.18d: >                 Circuit EWA-1, Line synchronization lost >  >                 NCP>J >                 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  29-MAY-2001 11:21:52.19  %%%%%%%%%%%5 >                 Message from user DECNET on MYALPHAs/ >                 DECnet event 4.10, circuit upiC >                 From node 1.13 (MYALPHA), 29-MAY-2001 11:21:52.18a >                 Circuit EWA-1s    7 I have seen this on an improperly terminated Ethernet. e  G Check your termination carefully.  If possible, disconnect your machineOH from the Ethernet, terminate just your machine, and see if the errors go6 away.  (You can do this while the machine is running.)  . If this fixes the problem, check your network.  
 Good luck!  G ------------------------------------------------------------------------$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com e   Fax: 817-237-3074e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:06:46 -0400i- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>  Subject: Re: disk benchmarking4 Message-ID: <qzRQ6.242417$Z2.2722761@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messagel% news:3B13D3DD.817E9EC7@bigfoot.com...l >...F > the HSG doesn't really do this well.  By the way, aren't those HSG's fast? OhD > yeah, and if you use the SWCC software, DON'T. It causes errors on you disk > units. >...  E What errors are you talking about here? What do you use to manage theb> devices? We have been looking at the various tools that CompaqE supports for the HSZ70's, HSG80's and Fibre Channel switches and find ' that it is getting way too complicated.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:21:11 -0400-( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B13E897.1C79032C@bigfoot.com>S  I I don't have the versions right in front of me, but if you're running thecF SWCC (storage console) latest version for the HSGs it generates deviceC errors on the disk units. Do you run SWCC for your HSG's?  The SWCC<H version for HSZ's work fine with no errors.  The devices are created andD managed at the HSG console command line - the best way to do it.  IfH you're not familiar with doing it on the command line of the controller,G what do you do, attach a serial line to  laptop to manager it from SWCC I there?  Knowing how to do it manually gives you a better understanding of : how the thing works, and (arguably) give you more control.   HM   Peter Weaver wrote:   7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messaget' > news:3B13D3DD.817E9EC7@bigfoot.com...  > >...H > > the HSG doesn't really do this well.  By the way, aren't those HSG's
 > fast? OhF > > yeah, and if you use the SWCC software, DON'T. It causes errors on
 > you disk
 > > units. > >... >xG > What errors are you talking about here? What do you use to manage thed@ > devices? We have been looking at the various tools that CompaqG > supports for the HSZ70's, HSG80's and Fibre Channel switches and findr) > that it is getting way too complicated.:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:27:43 -0400S( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B13EA1F.7ED90103@bigfoot.com>b  H I jus realized, that you may not have defined the command console lun atG all, and are in fact doing it serially. Is that correct? If so, you caniF use a PC on your LAN with the correct software loaded to manage it (at1 least with the HSZ's that don't generate errors).a   HM   Peter Weaver wrote:y  7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messager' > news:3B13D3DD.817E9EC7@bigfoot.com...t > >...H > > the HSG doesn't really do this well.  By the way, aren't those HSG's
 > fast? OhF > > yeah, and if you use the SWCC software, DON'T. It causes errors on
 > you disk
 > > units. > >... >jG > What errors are you talking about here? What do you use to manage theo@ > devices? We have been looking at the various tools that CompaqG > supports for the HSZ70's, HSG80's and Fibre Channel switches and find ) > that it is getting way too complicated.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:33:17 -0400o- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>s Subject: Re: disk benchmarking4 Message-ID: <iYRQ6.242422$Z2.2722681@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messagen% news:3B13E897.1C79032C@bigfoot.com...o? > I don't have the versions right in front of me, but if you'reu running the A > SWCC (storage console) latest version for the HSGs it generatese deviceE > errors on the disk units. Do you run SWCC for your HSG's?  The SWCCt  % Ah, we don't have the latest version.a  F > version for HSZ's work fine with no errors.  The devices are created and F > managed at the HSG console command line - the best way to do it.  If> > you're not familiar with doing it on the command line of the controller,jD > what do you do, attach a serial line to  laptop to manager it from SWCC: > there?  Knowing how to do it manually gives you a better understanding of< > how the thing works, and (arguably) give you more control.  D Agreed, most serious work we do from a VT220 that is attached to theF controller. One HSZ70 is about 600 KM away so I have a terminal serverE attached that I can telnet into. But we do have SWCC on a few PC's soy+ we can take a quick look from time to time.-  B We are debating on giving SWCC to the help desk people so they canE have a look at the display as part of their regular shift, but we are- still divided on it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:54:17 -0400s( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B13F059.379A8F39@bigfoot.com>p  H Giving  Help Desk people the potential to reconfigure arrays at any timeD (albeit accidentally) would make me lose much more sleep than my notJ seeing a disk in a failedset for a week.  At least I can count on the oddsG of a second disk not going out in the same unit as being as safe as notCG getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in the logpC for this kind of activity ( Being a purist, I never thought that itM( should, but that's a separate argument).   HM   Peter Weaver wrote:   7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message ' > news:3B13E897.1C79032C@bigfoot.com...aA > > I don't have the versions right in front of me, but if you're 
 > running thelC > > SWCC (storage console) latest version for the HSGs it generates  > deviceG > > errors on the disk units. Do you run SWCC for your HSG's?  The SWCCa >"' > Ah, we don't have the latest version.- >-H > > version for HSZ's work fine with no errors.  The devices are created > andhH > > managed at the HSG console command line - the best way to do it.  If@ > > you're not familiar with doing it on the command line of the
 > controller,yF > > what do you do, attach a serial line to  laptop to manager it from > SWCC< > > there?  Knowing how to do it manually gives you a better > understanding of> > > how the thing works, and (arguably) give you more control. > F > Agreed, most serious work we do from a VT220 that is attached to theH > controller. One HSZ70 is about 600 KM away so I have a terminal serverG > attached that I can telnet into. But we do have SWCC on a few PC's sot- > we can take a quick look from time to time.b >oD > We are debating on giving SWCC to the help desk people so they canG > have a look at the display as part of their regular shift, but we ares > still divided on it.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:56:43 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: disk benchmarking3 Message-ID: <el+Lvp8tKs7o@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <ZxOQ6.342618$o9.53389883@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:s   re: disk benchmarking.  D There is a product on the freeware CD that is ideal for what you are' attempting to do. It is called TESTDEV.h  2 I have used these hacked up DCLs to drive testing.   $! $! Single Stream activityu $! $! @test_io dsa230: 8 1 117110 $! @test_io dsa230: 16 1 213990P  $! @test_io dsa230: 128 1 431980 $! $! Four Stream activityG $!  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 8    181833  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 8   399422  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 16   440993  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 16  692922  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 32   771988  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 32  441093  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 64   107439  $! @test_io dsa230: 128 4 112966 $! $!  G What you see above, the comments actually trailed reality.  I was doingtK 8 and 16 streams and popping in 128 streams (but 16 saturated the subsystemy it appears).     $! $! $!      p1 = device, $!      p2 = Block size  $!      p3 = Streams $!      p4 = seedO $! $       if p4 .eqs. "" $       then# $               write sys$output ""t, $               write sys$output "P1 = DISK"2 $               write sys$output "P2 = Block size"= $               write sys$output "P3 = Number of I/O Streams"n, $               write sys$output "P4 = Seed"# $               write sys$output ""  $               exit
 $       endifs $       wait 00:00:10a< $       define/job sys_tools DVLP$DISK:[YOUNGR.WORK.TESTDEV]3 $       set default DVLP$DISK:[YOUNGR.WORK.TESTDEV]  $       set command testdeve $       testdev 'p1' /io=4000 -O         /block='p2'     -          /stream='p3'    -o         /cover=random='p4' -&         /seek=(from=100000,to=2600000)   Regarding sequential.e  F The HSG80 performs sequential read ahead caching (or pre-fetch) so I'mK not sure how that will be effect your measurements.  A trick I learned from B a Master is you can turn-off Read-Ahead or Read caching by settingG MAXIMUM_CACHE_TRANSFER to 1.  Also, if you have write caching turned on(C and MAXIMUM_CACHE_TRANSFER set to 1, it acknowledges the write and   immediately flushes it to disk.-@ The 10 second wait gave me enough time to sit at DCL and fire upE monitor disk or whatnot.  I submitted it to batch and as you can see vF was exercising a range of blocks from 100000 to 2600000 or 2.5 million, blocks.  Also, I was doing 4000 i/o per run.   More after a bit. . .    				Robt   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 15:01:25 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)I Subject: Re: disk benchmarking3 Message-ID: <BCdqcuRtR5nT@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  g In article <ZxOQ6.342618$o9.53389883@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:I  . Of course.. fast and careful often collide :-)   $! $! Single Stream activitye $! $! @test_io dsa230: 8 1 117110 $! @test_io dsa230: 16 1 213990e  $! @test_io dsa230: 128 1 431980 $! $! Four Stream activity  $!  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 8    181833  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 8   399422  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 16   440993  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 16  692922  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 32   771988  $ @test_io dsa230: 16 32  441093  $ @test_io dsa230: 8 64   107439  $! @test_io dsa230: 128 4 112966 $! $!  G What you see above, the comments actually trailed reality.  I was doingiK 8 and 16 streams and popping in 128 streams (but 16 saturated the subsystemt it appears).    A 	Make that:  a 64 block I/O sucked as bad as 128 block.  Not "128p? 	streams" as seen in the above paragraph.  blocks, not streams.c   				Robu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:05:14 -0400s- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>e Subject: Re: disk benchmarking4 Message-ID: <cqSQ6.242435$Z2.2723172@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message % news:3B13F059.379A8F39@bigfoot.com... E > Giving  Help Desk people the potential to reconfigure arrays at any- timeF > (albeit accidentally) would make me lose much more sleep than my not   Exactly.  C > seeing a disk in a failedset for a week.  At least I can count ons the oddsE > of a second disk not going out in the same unit as being as safe as  not E > getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in then log    Got one once, Ace - 5, Hearts.  E > getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in thew logoE > for this kind of activity ( Being a purist, I never thought that itc* > should, but that's a separate argument).  B But if you have an ES40 attached to the HSG80 then you have to useD Compaq Analyze, DECEvent is no longer supported on the new boxes. CAD makes DSN 2.2 look like a great product. Any errors in the error logD are useless. (sorry, scratch that paragraph, I'm not supposed to say9 bad things about CA until I'm finished my review of 4.0.)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:14:46 -0400e( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B13F526.53F5CB69@bigfoot.com>a  H I did not know that (haven't yet seen an ES40 - I thought it was a model
 of Lexus).I By the way, did you ever solve your Global Section Descriptor problem? Ifn so, what was it?   HM     Peter Weaver wrote:t  7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message3' > news:3B13F059.379A8F39@bigfoot.com...cG > > Giving  Help Desk people the potential to reconfigure arrays at any  > timeH > > (albeit accidentally) would make me lose much more sleep than my not >'
 > Exactly. >TE > > seeing a disk in a failedset for a week.  At least I can count onm
 > the oddsG > > of a second disk not going out in the same unit as being as safe ast > notkG > > getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in theM > logf >p  > Got one once, Ace - 5, Hearts. >iG > > getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in then > logtG > > for this kind of activity ( Being a purist, I never thought that its, > > should, but that's a separate argument). >uD > But if you have an ES40 attached to the HSG80 then you have to useF > Compaq Analyze, DECEvent is no longer supported on the new boxes. CAF > makes DSN 2.2 look like a great product. Any errors in the error logF > are useless. (sorry, scratch that paragraph, I'm not supposed to say; > bad things about CA until I'm finished my review of 4.0.)1   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 16:54:06 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n Subject: Re: disk benchmarking3 Message-ID: <Ogp98b9yHA6u@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <gZMQ6.342595$o9.53288398@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:f   > * > This way, I could have some control overL > the amount of cached IOs.  (100 random  IOs within a 150 block region willI > likely  do a lot of cacheing,  100 IOs over a million block region will  > probably not cache much).y >   @ 	100 I/O of 4K (2K) each over 150 blocks isn't random, i.e. they5 	would repeat often enough to be cached somewhere :-)e   				Robm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:26:58 -0400e2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking* Message-ID: <3B141422.CC2893FF@oracle.com>   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: 	. 	. 	. r > Also make sure to set yourM > cluster size accordingly on the disk unit that handles the large sequential. > I/O. @  6 	why?  what difference would the cluster size make?  I> could see where an extreemly sophisticed person might, in some> cases, be able to get a file on disk to line up *exactly* with> the start of a chunk, I don't see how I/O size would effect or be effected by cluster size.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:16:20 GMTs& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking? Message-ID: <UcVQ6.338720$fs3.55086936@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>   L I was just trying to express a concept; that if you run an IO test against aL small region, you will experience cacheing, but if you run a few IOs againstG a huge region, odds are there will be no effective cacheing.  I guess Ia didn't express it very well.  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Ogp98b9yHA6u@eisner.encompasserve.org... F > In article <gZMQ6.342595$o9.53288398@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john" nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes: >  > >s, > > This way, I could have some control overI > > the amount of cached IOs.  (100 random  IOs within a 150 block regionm willK > > likely  do a lot of cacheing,  100 IOs over a million block region willn > > probably not cache much).  > >  > A > 100 I/O of 4K (2K) each over 150 blocks isn't random, i.e. they26 > would repeat often enough to be cached somewhere :-) >T > RobL >s >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:11:40 GMTd$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking) Message-ID: <3B142D1B.24AB0325@wi.rr.com>l  E Isn't there a password in SWCC that makes the app "read only" when ite$ comes to making changes on the HSGs?B You could give the Help Desk the ability to look but not touch....  I As far as managing the HSGs, connecting to the serial console port is thee best.kH But I'm going to pick up a StorageWorks Management Appliance in the nextC few months.  It has a web-based way to manage HSGs.  I think Compaq 0 finally got the hint that SWCC sucks doggie-doo.   -Scott   Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:  J > Giving  Help Desk people the potential to reconfigure arrays at any timeF > (albeit accidentally) would make me lose much more sleep than my notL > seeing a disk in a failedset for a week.  At least I can count on the oddsI > of a second disk not going out in the same unit as being as safe as notgI > getting a straight flush in poker.  Besides, VMS logs errors in the lognE > for this kind of activity ( Being a purist, I never thought that it'* > should, but that's a separate argument). >. > HM >e > Peter Weaver wrote:b > 9 > > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message ) > > news:3B13E897.1C79032C@bigfoot.com...uC > > > I don't have the versions right in front of me, but if you're  > > running thegE > > > SWCC (storage console) latest version for the HSGs it generates2
 > > deviceI > > > errors on the disk units. Do you run SWCC for your HSG's?  The SWCC  > >m) > > Ah, we don't have the latest version.o > >mJ > > > version for HSZ's work fine with no errors.  The devices are created > > andCJ > > > managed at the HSG console command line - the best way to do it.  IfB > > > you're not familiar with doing it on the command line of the > > controller,fH > > > what do you do, attach a serial line to  laptop to manager it from > > SWCC> > > > there?  Knowing how to do it manually gives you a better > > understanding of@ > > > how the thing works, and (arguably) give you more control. > > H > > Agreed, most serious work we do from a VT220 that is attached to theJ > > controller. One HSZ70 is about 600 KM away so I have a terminal serverI > > attached that I can telnet into. But we do have SWCC on a few PC's soo/ > > we can take a quick look from time to time.7 > >oF > > We are debating on giving SWCC to the help desk people so they canI > > have a look at the display as part of their regular shift, but we aree > > still divided on it.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 19:26:01 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: disk benchmarking3 Message-ID: <Nfb8AybxSMp6@eisner.encompasserve.org>Z  h In article <UcVQ6.338720$fs3.55086936@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:N > I was just trying to express a concept; that if you run an IO test against aN > small region, you will experience cacheing, but if you run a few IOs againstI > a huge region, odds are there will be no effective cacheing.  I guess I  > didn't express it very well.  > 	That is what I figured, hence the smiley.  But for the kids IB 	had to stick that out there.  Back to the MAXIMUM_CACHE_TRANSFER	= 	size again..... Read I/O hits the cache so a subsequent read @ 	will be there.  If your I/O is *truly* random on  a DB, you mayB 	wish to set that size to 1 to prevent the random I/O from kickingA 	out what might be hit in cache... or so I have been told (and itG 	is per unit).   				Robn 	f   > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:Ogp98b9yHA6u@eisner.encompasserve.org...aG >> In article <gZMQ6.342595$o9.53288398@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john $ > nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes: >> >> >- >> > This way, I could have some control over J >> > the amount of cached IOs.  (100 random  IOs within a 150 block region > willL >> > likely  do a lot of cacheing,  100 IOs over a million block region will >> > probably not cache much). >> > >>B >> 100 I/O of 4K (2K) each over 150 blocks isn't random, i.e. they7 >> would repeat often enough to be cached somewhere :-)n >> >> Rob >> >> >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:39:37 -0500r, From: "Glenn C. Everhart" <Everhart@GCE.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking' Message-ID: <3B13FAF9.4687262E@GCE.com>s  8 Check out www.pricewatch.com and you'll find single SCSI? volumes of over 180GB on sale, quantity one, for under $2K (notn including shipping :-) ).c  ; I understood from some IDE document I saw recently that IDEe= has a limit around 128 GB, though it may have been one of thee; many PC design limits that can be gotten around. Looks likea< the 1TB VMS disk limit will be reached sooner than we think.   Rob Young wrote: > i > In article <LAOQ6.342620$o9.53391727@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:gO > > Good question.  I am only testing raid0 to get a feel for scalability.  AllnN > > production units will incorporate mirroring.  Raid5 will only be used if IJ > > am seriously surprised and impressed with the performance gains of theP > > HSG80.  My big question is how many mirrorsets to stripe.  200GB disks are a< > > bit too large to manage and I try to avoid partitioning. > >b > M >         What do you mean "200 GB disks" , have you cobbled together a bunch B >         of 36 GByte disks and your RAID5s are a bit largish :-)? > I >         Are you working with 36 GByte drives?  Any volume shadowing?  I , >         highly recommend volume shadowing. > I >         As an aside, I've noticed a trend a while back.  If you ask me,sJ >         73 GByte disks are way too large too.  I've had long discussionsL >         about "what happens when drives get to be 200 GBytes, 500 GBytes?" > N >         What happens when that RAID5 of 4 - 500 GByte drives takes 2 days toL >         restore (5 days?), etc. etc.  That probably won't happen, so where- >         is this headed/used (large drives)?e > - >                                         Robf > < > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:3mhsTO9iA0Dm@eisner.encompasserve.org... I > >> In article <gZMQ6.342595$o9.53288398@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "johno& > > nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes: > >>N > >> > what is best for my applications.  (raid 0,  Raid0+1,  raid 5,   number > > ofK > >> > stripe members etc...).  Some of my applications need large IO size,  > >>A > >> Quick question before spending much time here... why are youl? > >> looking at RAID0?  Are you shadowing your RAID0 members oriD > >> just playing around?  (RAID0 is good for scratch as the MTBF is3 > >> much lower than other RAID levels, etc. etc.).  > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > >d > >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:12:51 -0400d( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B144913.F684640D@bigfoot.com>o  L Your obviously confusing what VMS does with what the array does.  VMS has noN knowledge of the underlying structure of the disk.  If you have an applicationN that does LARGE writes, let's say, then a small cluster size will force VMS toP allocate multiple small clusters (and not necessarily at the same time - this isJ costly, not to mention posssibly fragmentary).  Applications that do largeL sequential writes are better off getting the allocation over with, thereforeO saving time.  Additionally, as it relates to chunk size, let's say your clustergN size is 64(32K)  blocks, but your chunk size in 128K.  Multiple clusters maybeM allocated on a single volume because it fits within the chunk on that volume.oO This would be great if you needed high I/O operation rate for many simultaneousTJ operations, but in the large sequential write case, you want as many disksN handling the request as possible. So, if you were to set the chunk size to sayL 512 blocks (256K) and set the chunk size to 128K (or even smaller), it wouldP force more than one disk in the stripe to participate in the allocation of space: for the single VMS request of allocating a single cluster.   HM   norm lastovica wrote:    > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: >         ._ >         .6 >         .! > > Also make sure to set yourO > > cluster size accordingly on the disk unit that handles the large sequentialt > > I/O. >r? >         why?  what difference would the cluster size make?  I @ > could see where an extreemly sophisticed person might, in some@ > cases, be able to get a file on disk to line up *exactly* with@ > the start of a chunk, I don't see how I/O size would effect or > be effected by cluster size.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:16:56 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking* Message-ID: <3B144A08.CA6AE14@bigfoot.com>  5 Correction, that should be CLUSTER SIZE of 512 blocks    HM Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:  N > Your obviously confusing what VMS does with what the array does.  VMS has noP > knowledge of the underlying structure of the disk.  If you have an applicationP > that does LARGE writes, let's say, then a small cluster size will force VMS toR > allocate multiple small clusters (and not necessarily at the same time - this isL > costly, not to mention posssibly fragmentary).  Applications that do largeN > sequential writes are better off getting the allocation over with, thereforeQ > saving time.  Additionally, as it relates to chunk size, let's say your cluster P > size is 64(32K)  blocks, but your chunk size in 128K.  Multiple clusters maybeO > allocated on a single volume because it fits within the chunk on that volume.nQ > This would be great if you needed high I/O operation rate for many simultaneousuL > operations, but in the large sequential write case, you want as many disksP > handling the request as possible. So, if you were to set the chunk size to sayN > 512 blocks (256K) and set the chunk size to 128K (or even smaller), it wouldR > force more than one disk in the stripe to participate in the allocation of space< > for the single VMS request of allocating a single cluster. >r > HM >  > norm lastovica wrote:8 >. > > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:
 > >         .n
 > >         .f
 > >         .s  > > > Also make sure to set yourQ > > > cluster size accordingly on the disk unit that handles the large sequential1
 > > > I/O. > > A > >         why?  what difference would the cluster size make?  I B > > could see where an extreemly sophisticed person might, in someB > > cases, be able to get a file on disk to line up *exactly* withB > > the start of a chunk, I don't see how I/O size would effect or  > > be effected by cluster size.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:10:33 -0400s' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: disk benchmarking( Message-ID: <9f1o72$og3$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in messagea% news:3B144913.F684640D@bigfoot.com...kB > Your obviously confusing what VMS does with what the array does.  F The likelihood that Norm is the one who's confused here seems minimal.  9 To the best of my (dim) recollection, VMS allocates spacesJ contiguous-best-try by default, which means that a single write operation,H at least up to some rather large size, will cause at most one allocationL operation to occur (unless the volume is so fragmented that contiguous space9 sufficient to satisfy the write does not exist anywhere).i  H As for using small RAID chunks to obtain parallel transfers from as manyH disks as possible, returns diminish rapidly:  it takes only 3 - 5 ms. toH transfer 128 KB from a contemporary disk, which means that is the *most*I time an operation can save even if an infinite number of disks contributenH tiny pieces.  However, the more disks you involve, the better the chanceG that one of their heads will be really poorly positioned to satisfy thetG request, which creates an off-setting overhead potentially considerablyrJ greater than the time you could save.  And the one thing that's guaranteedJ is that the single request *will* involve *all* the disks it spans - whichG means that in any system with a mix of access patterns and sizes, using K small chunks (anything under 256 KB - and it's often easy to justify over 1n< MB) tends to produce decidedly sub-optimal disk utilization.   - bill     VMS has noD > knowledge of the underlying structure of the disk.  If you have an applicationuI > that does LARGE writes, let's say, then a small cluster size will force  VMS toJ > allocate multiple small clusters (and not necessarily at the same time - this iseL > costly, not to mention posssibly fragmentary).  Applications that do largeD > sequential writes are better off getting the allocation over with,	 therefore>I > saving time.  Additionally, as it relates to chunk size, let's say youre clustereJ > size is 64(32K)  blocks, but your chunk size in 128K.  Multiple clusters maybe G > allocated on a single volume because it fits within the chunk on thate volume.sD > This would be great if you needed high I/O operation rate for many simultaneousL > operations, but in the large sequential write case, you want as many disksL > handling the request as possible. So, if you were to set the chunk size to say H > 512 blocks (256K) and set the chunk size to 128K (or even smaller), it wouldlL > force more than one disk in the stripe to participate in the allocation of spaceh< > for the single VMS request of allocating a single cluster. >  > HM >y > norm lastovica wrote:t >h > > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote:
 > >         .a
 > >         .i
 > >         .p  > > > Also make sure to set yourF > > > cluster size accordingly on the disk unit that handles the large
 sequential
 > > > I/O. > > A > >         why?  what difference would the cluster size make?  I B > > could see where an extreemly sophisticed person might, in someB > > cases, be able to get a file on disk to line up *exactly* withB > > the start of a chunk, I don't see how I/O size would effect or  > > be effected by cluster size. >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:32:58 -0400@( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: disk benchmarking+ Message-ID: <3B1469EA.536EE9F3@bigfoot.com>i  O It is entirley possible that you did not read through the entire thread leadingoJ up to the discussion, so let me reiterate: We were originally defining ourP domain to a single disk unit being optimized for LARGE sequential writes, so theJ "mix of access patterns and sizes" that do refer to does not exist for theP purposes of the discussion.  Second, since there is a sufficient amount of cacheO (usually designated to BOTH writeback, and read) VMS receives notice of its I/O O write request completion in the hundreds of microseconds range (if not less) inaO most cases, not the "3 to 5 milliseconds" as you indicated.  This lets the RAID H controller take the I/O request and spread it (per its cache degradationO algorithm) at its leisure to as many disks as it can (still being restricted byiP chunk size of each physical disk).  Also, VMS is not CLAIRVOYANT! An applicationN writing beyond the initial allocation on an RMS file only allocates the amountH given by the RMS extend size (which I beleive has a default of 5 on mostN sysytems, so it will allocate a least one cluster or group of clusters only upP to the size of the write request).  Any subsequent writes allocate an additionalN extent.  This is not the same as a copy operation where, VMS has the benfit ofL knowing (without calling a psychic mind you) what the output size will be in5 advance, and allocate on a contiguous-best-try basis.r   HM   Bill Todd wrote:  7 > "Hamlyn Mootoo" <univms@bigfoot.com> wrote in message ' > news:3B144913.F684640D@bigfoot.com...pD > > Your obviously confusing what VMS does with what the array does. >sH > The likelihood that Norm is the one who's confused here seems minimal. > ; > To the best of my (dim) recollection, VMS allocates spaceyL > contiguous-best-try by default, which means that a single write operation,J > at least up to some rather large size, will cause at most one allocationN > operation to occur (unless the volume is so fragmented that contiguous space; > sufficient to satisfy the write does not exist anywhere).  >,J > As for using small RAID chunks to obtain parallel transfers from as manyJ > disks as possible, returns diminish rapidly:  it takes only 3 - 5 ms. toJ > transfer 128 KB from a contemporary disk, which means that is the *most*K > time an operation can save even if an infinite number of disks contributetJ > tiny pieces.  However, the more disks you involve, the better the chanceI > that one of their heads will be really poorly positioned to satisfy thetI > request, which creates an off-setting overhead potentially considerably L > greater than the time you could save.  And the one thing that's guaranteedL > is that the single request *will* involve *all* the disks it spans - whichI > means that in any system with a mix of access patterns and sizes, usingeM > small chunks (anything under 256 KB - and it's often easy to justify over 1c> > MB) tends to produce decidedly sub-optimal disk utilization. >  > - bill >a >   VMS has noF > > knowledge of the underlying structure of the disk.  If you have an
 > application K > > that does LARGE writes, let's say, then a small cluster size will forcea > VMS toL > > allocate multiple small clusters (and not necessarily at the same time -	 > this is.N > > costly, not to mention posssibly fragmentary).  Applications that do largeF > > sequential writes are better off getting the allocation over with, > thereforeCK > > saving time.  Additionally, as it relates to chunk size, let's say your 	 > cluster L > > size is 64(32K)  blocks, but your chunk size in 128K.  Multiple clusters > maybe I > > allocated on a single volume because it fits within the chunk on thats	 > volume.cF > > This would be great if you needed high I/O operation rate for many > simultaneousN > > operations, but in the large sequential write case, you want as many disksN > > handling the request as possible. So, if you were to set the chunk size to > say J > > 512 blocks (256K) and set the chunk size to 128K (or even smaller), it > wouldnN > > force more than one disk in the stripe to participate in the allocation of > space > > > for the single VMS request of allocating a single cluster. > >e > > HM > >l > > norm lastovica wrote:K > >y > > > Hamlyn Mootoo wrote: > > >         .a > > >         .t > > >         . " > > > > Also make sure to set yourH > > > > cluster size accordingly on the disk unit that handles the large > sequential > > > > I/O. > > >yC > > >         why?  what difference would the cluster size make?  IbD > > > could see where an extreemly sophisticed person might, in someD > > > cases, be able to get a file on disk to line up *exactly* withD > > > the start of a chunk, I don't see how I/O size would effect or" > > > be effected by cluster size. > >e   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 17:56:32 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)e@ Subject: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations3 Message-ID: <TzqxQJIoZcIH@eisner.encompasserve.org>I  , In article <9f0j5h$1aat$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.education  (Bill Gunshannon) writes:) > In article <3B13C516.D029B887@fsi.net>,e6 >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > |> Tim Llewellyn wrote:M > |> >G > |> > I personally favour the following approach. Develop version 1 on H > |> > hobbyiest licences if thats all you have. Release it as freeware.I > |> > Hold back a few features. If sufficient interest is generated then 9 > |> > get on CSA program and develop commercial product.  > |> > |> THREE CHEERS FOR TIM!!! > |> > |> Excellent idea!!! >gF > Except for the fact that if your original intent was the developmentI > of a potentially commercial product you are in violation of the licenseiF > agreement for the Hobbyist program.   I have no doubt that if peopleG > start using the hobbyist program for this kind of activity it will goi > away.l  $ From the Compaq Hobby License Terms:  8 "Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR NON-COMMERCIAL= USES (e.g., home use).  As such, you may not use the LicensedaL Computer for any business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applications, for resale, to do business accounting, etc."  L Unlike the Gnu Public License (GPL), there is no requirement that a hobbyist; releases the sources to their software that they give away.d  H Nor is there any language about requiring any specific license terms forJ software developed on a system licensed by the hobby agreement except that the software can not be sold.n  F There is nothing to stop someone in the CSA program from using the CSAM resources to support freeware, public domain, or GNU Public licensed softwarehM and charging for it.  The GPL requires that the sources be made available foriH reasonable media fee, and that the receiver can further redistribute it.    F I am not a lawyer, nor do I represent Compaq in this, but I do not seeI anything in the specific text of the Compaq Hobby License Aggreement thatoN precludes software that was originally developed under the Hobby License beingD converted to software developed and supported under the CSA program.  E I also do not see anything that prohibits a hobbyist from selling thehJ experience and knowledge that they gained using a hobby licensed system on2 a client's commercially licensed system for money.  B Or using that experience and knowledge to get a better paying job.   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network personal opinion only    ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 19:15:18 -05009 From: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)mD Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations3 Message-ID: <FWIvwKdZZK4g@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  i In article <TzqxQJIoZcIH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:   G > I also do not see anything that prohibits a hobbyist from selling therL > experience and knowledge that they gained using a hobby licensed system on4 > a client's commercially licensed system for money. > D > Or using that experience and knowledge to get a better paying job.  H As I recall, one of the original justifications for the Hobbyist programK was to encourage the development of VMS skills so people would be available@ to be hired.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:33:36 -0400a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)D Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS WorkstationsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2905012033380001@user-2ivea2f.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <FWIvwKdZZK4g@eisner.encompasserve.org>,r: Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  5 > In article <TzqxQJIoZcIH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c5 malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:> > I > > I also do not see anything that prohibits a hobbyist from selling the N > > experience and knowledge that they gained using a hobby licensed system on6 > > a client's commercially licensed system for money. > > F > > Or using that experience and knowledge to get a better paying job. > J > As I recall, one of the original justifications for the Hobbyist programM > was to encourage the development of VMS skills so people would be availableo > to be hired.  J If that was the justification, it was a huge success.  It seems impossible9 to get a job, so I guess there is a glut of VMS talent...s   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:32:47 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>iD Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations' Message-ID: <3B145BCF.46990A80@fsi.net>i   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > k > In article <TzqxQJIoZcIH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:  > I > > I also do not see anything that prohibits a hobbyist from selling thetN > > experience and knowledge that they gained using a hobby licensed system on6 > > a client's commercially licensed system for money. > >cF > > Or using that experience and knowledge to get a better paying job. > J > As I recall, one of the original justifications for the Hobbyist programM > was to encourage the development of VMS skills so people would be available  > to be hired.  % But, the program only went half-way. c  E Originally, Pat J. proposed this when many VAXes were about to becomerE landfill fodder. The original selling point was two-fold: 1, keep theoG VAXes out of the landfills (recycling centers, etc.) and 2, provide for > hobbyist use of OpenVMS for learning and personal/professionalH development. In its first phase, no provision was ever made - other thanF the expected "glut" of retired VAxes - for hardware priced within easy& reach of the average working hobbyist.  E Even today, affordable OpenVMS-capable hardware remains as elusive as.H affordable end-user licensing for OpenVMS, with the exception that older4 Alphas are now somewhat common on the auction sites.  H For the continued success and ultimate fruition of the hobbyist program,@ as well as for the ultimate survival of both OpenVMS and OpenVMSF professionals, Affordable OpenVMS is, always has been, and always will be an absolute must.   -- l David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:38:01 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>lD Subject: Re: Hobbyist Licenses - was Re: Affordable VMS Workstations' Message-ID: <3B145D09.7673B33A@fsi.net>a   Robert Deininger wrote:  > 5 > In article <FWIvwKdZZK4g@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h< > Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > 7 > > In article <TzqxQJIoZcIH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 7 > malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg) writes:n > >lK > > > I also do not see anything that prohibits a hobbyist from selling the P > > > experience and knowledge that they gained using a hobby licensed system on8 > > > a client's commercially licensed system for money. > > >lH > > > Or using that experience and knowledge to get a better paying job. > > L > > As I recall, one of the original justifications for the Hobbyist programO > > was to encourage the development of VMS skills so people would be available  > > to be hired. > L > If that was the justification, it was a huge success.  It seems impossible; > to get a job, so I guess there is a glut of VMS talent...2  E Well, that is rather a two-edged sword: OVMS jobs are as rare as OVMSsG talent, except that the two factors have about reached a balance point.oF The "arm of the balance" continues to move, however, and OVMS jobs areE becoming more and more scarce, while the supply of OVMS professionalsd remains more or less constant.  F Hence, our quandry. A fair few people are vying for a shrinking number> of OVMS jobs. The number OVMS job seekers is growing while theE opportunites for them to become/remain employed are evaporating at anh alarming rate.  C About the only skills that carry any weight at all anymore are DBMS 6 (example: Oracle) and UI (example: Cognos/Powerhouse).   -- h David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:20:04 GMT,$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>- Subject: Re: HSDSA Scrip in a Batch Procedurem) Message-ID: <3B142F13.AB443FBF@wi.rr.com>   B Since when is it *okay* to post binary attachments to comp.os.vms?  A Also, thanks for shipping a virus to everyone who reads the list.r   -Scott   "Kent, Philip JW1811" wrote:   > > Hello... > > N > > Would anybody have an example of a batch procedure running the HSDSA-SCRIPL > > in order to obtain information from a set of controllers?  I usually runJ > > this interactively, but would like to automate this procedure in batch > job. > >e > > Thanks in advance! > >o > > Art  > B > Here are the HSJ command files I used and the HSDSA executables. >eL > I was using HSDSA-SCRIPT version 1.16 for both Alpha and VAX computers.  I- > got it from the Storage Works support team.f >tI > The attached command files have some limited documentation inside them.s > K > GET_HSJ_DEVICES.COM should extract the HSJ node names from a show clusterbK > and then use the above executable to querry the A side of the HSJs to getlN > information on what and where the disks and tapes were.  Then it would cleanJ > up the information and create a excel like spreadsheet for each slot and > each set of controllers. > J > GET_HSJ_DEVICES.SAVE was an earlier version, in case you are interested. >yD > HSJPAD.COM was used to find a process that was set host to the HSJN > controller and preventing my access.  This could be modified to take control > of the HSJ controller. >nG > Phil Kent (kent@acom.mil, philip.kent@compaq.com, philkent@erols.com)s >l >l >eL >   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >              Name: hs.zip G >    hs.zip    Type: Zip Compressed Data (application/x-zip-compressed)i >          Encoding: base64n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:58:27 -0500e0 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>- Subject: RE: HSDSA Scrip in a Batch ProcedureiC Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHOEALEGAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>   1 Thank you!.. we'll take a look at these as well..i   Artd     -----Original Message-----6 From: Kent, Philip JW1811 [mailto:kent@jwfc.jfcom.mil]$ Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:46 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com@- Subject: RE: HSDSA Scrip in a Batch Proceduree    
 > Hello... >.L > Would anybody have an example of a batch procedure running the HSDSA-SCRIPJ > in order to obtain information from a set of controllers?  I usually runH > this interactively, but would like to automate this procedure in batch job. >E > Thanks in advance! >e > Arto  @ Here are the HSJ command files I used and the HSDSA executables.  J I was using HSDSA-SCRIPT version 1.16 for both Alpha and VAX computers.  I+ got it from the Storage Works support team.a  G The attached command files have some limited documentation inside them.u  I GET_HSJ_DEVICES.COM should extract the HSJ node names from a show clusteriI and then use the above executable to querry the A side of the HSJs to get L information on what and where the disks and tapes were.  Then it would cleanH up the information and create a excel like spreadsheet for each slot and each set of controllers.  H GET_HSJ_DEVICES.SAVE was an earlier version, in case you are interested.  B HSJPAD.COM was used to find a process that was set host to the HSJL controller and preventing my access.  This could be modified to take control of the HSJ controller.  E Phil Kent (kent@acom.mil, philip.kent@compaq.com, philkent@erols.com)w   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:54:17 -0500t% From: "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com>n Subject: hszterm softwarec% Message-ID: <7nRQ6.15$z34.875@client>   ? Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the HSZTERM software    -- Steve Smith  Manager Technical Services Information Technology Law Bulletin Publishing Co.D
 (312)644-7067p ssmith@LBPC.coms http://www.lawbulletin.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:09:34 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: hszterm softwaren> Message-ID: <yBRQ6.344114$o9.53563185@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  J It is available from DSN, but I just found an article that says HSZTERM isH not officially sanctioned and can cause server crashes and can interfereH with production applications.  They now (the article was dated Oct 2000)G recommend purchasing SANworks command scripter.  I am a little confusedaL though.  The article says it is a standalone product, but then it goes on to* say that SWCC must be installed to use it.  0 "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com> wrote in message news:7nRQ6.15$z34.875@client... A > Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the HSZTERM softwaree >. > --
 > Steve Smithi > Manager Technical Services > Information Technology > Law Bulletin Publishing Co.  > (312)644-7067i > ssmith@LBPC.com, > http://www.lawbulletin.com >r >d >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:06:25 -0300e) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.brg Subject: Re: hszterm software L Message-ID: <OF6412D1EA.0A81D70F-ON03256A5B.0063617A@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  ; Is there a HSZTERM for Solaris ? I think there is / was ... 8 I will migrate our StorageWorks from the Alphaservers to a Sun Ultra.     Regardsl        6 "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com> em 29/05/2001 14:54:17  1 Favor responder a "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com>h             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come       Assunto: hszterm software     ? Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the HSZTERM software    -- Steve Smithe Manager Technical Services Information Technology Law Bulletin Publishing Co.a
 (312)644-7067l ssmith@LBPC.coml http://www.lawbulletin.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:17:09 -0500t% From: "steve smith" <ssmith@lbpc.com>u Subject: hz70 throughput& Message-ID: <qlUQ6.25$z34.1414@client>  H     Does anyone know what the thru-put rating on an hsz70 controller is.L Storageworks people said 25MB across a pair, however, I've already seen 2600 kb/s for about 30 secondse   -- Steve Smithi Manager Technical Services Information Technology Law Bulletin Publishing Co.t
 (312)644-7067t ssmith@LBPC.com  http://www.lawbulletin.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:46:49 -07005! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com( Subject: Re: IRCD for VMSlD Message-ID: <OFA65A368B.D34AFF28-ON88256A5B.006706D6@foundation.com>  F I've had good results using Posix threads, and find them a little more flexible than ASTs.    Shanel          E Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@k9.healthnet.com on 05/28/2001  11:17:15 AM   8 Please respond to Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>   Sent by:  prep@k9.healthnet.comh     To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come cc:e   Subject:  Re: IRCD for VMS    / "Edward Brocklesby" <ejb@leguin.org.uk> writes:e  = >     1) I can't seem to use pipe() to implement interprocesspB > communications very well on VMS.  I think I should be looking atA > Mailboxs, but Compaq's documentation (including MACRO32 example 2 > code) is a little over my head.  (relevant code:, > [ircd-hybrid-7.src]s_serv.c fork_server().  F I think you  may, in the longer run, reconsider this. VMS does not runG well with lots of processes being spawned off. Plus Mailbox IO, is, ah,oD less than stellar. Better to work towards an AST driven system, with everything in one process.  E A good example of this is the WASD httpd, http://wasd.vsm.com.au/wasd:  : BTW, it has the best interface to the help libs I've seen.  9 >     2) Is there a way to set a process name? similar too& > run/process_name=, but using an RTL.  2 Lib$spawn has the process name as one of its args.   --< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H Spam-To: uce@ftc.gov,enforcement@sec.gov,sness@fcc.gov,hfurchtg@fcc.gov,"   mpowell@fcc.gov,gtristan@fcc.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:02:17 -0500g/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>b Subject: Re: IRCD for VMSs3 Message-ID: <3B140049.66C7AFE5@applied-synergy.com>    Edward Brocklesby wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3B119806.39730AEF@fsi.net...o > > WeK > > would need to know the exact details of your build environment (OpenVMSwK > > version, VAX or Alpha, programming language and compiler version, etc.)nK > > before would be able to duplicate your success in building the program,  > > much less implementing it. > H > Ok, well, I'll say as much as I can.  I'm testing it on an OpenVMS 7.2 > systemE > running on an AlphaStation 500, DEC C V6.0-001, MultiNet V4.3(119).y. > I'm using MMK to build it (unknown version). > 9 > A couple of things I'm currently having problems with -   g  L >     2) Is there a way to set a process name? similar to run/process_name=, > but using an RTL.h  A It's not clear if you want to set the process name for a separateiC process you are creating of if you want to set your current processe name.u  F If creating a new process, LIB$SPAWN and SYS$CREPRC have arguments for the process name.i  > To set you current process, use the SYS$SETPRN system service.    I >     3) Simple DCL questions, is there a way to delete everything from a 	 > certainoM > line (specified by location of a string) of a file until the end? Somethingn > likeC > sed -e '/string/,$d' on Unix. Or else, can I "include" files in at
 > descrip.mms 7 > file? (The point of this is to implement mmk depend).   F Yes you can include files in descrip.mms.  Use the .INCLUDE directive.  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com a   Fax: 817-237-3074    ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 17:01:26 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook)s Subject: Re: IRCD for VMSz! Message-ID: <vj08VgXitFEN@wvnvms>>  p In article <009FCB30.FA431F3B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:O > In article <L2igsBQYrvgC@wvnvms>, cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) writes:sJ >>There will always be some grump who makes an arrogantly snotty complaintM >>when your package fails to build with some unsupported version.  I actually,G >>had grump complain in a very put downish manner when Mosaic failed tou > L > Who was that?   Since John chose to refer to me as a "grump", I would have+ > to assume you chose the word with malice.2  H I apologize for the way that was worded.  If I recall correctly, the oneE time we interacted about Mosaic, you were very professional about it.s  D I should have stayed out of this discussion, but it hit a sore spot.E People tend to forget that the maintainers of freeware are volunteerseD who donate a lot (in some cases a great deal) of time and effort.  IF know of few things which will take the wind out of a volunteer's sailsJ faster than negative criticism (even if that criticism was unintentional).     George Cook    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:49:21 GMTe& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com>, Subject: O.T.  (but interesting) SUNW vs CPQ> Message-ID: <RaSQ6.344429$o9.53593334@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  K I thought this was an interesting chart.  Many of our VMS applications have I been ported to SUN Solaris over the past few years.  Sun Sales reps neverlI failed to point out the decline of DEC stock value.  That was supposed to # have some significance at the time.o  J http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW&d=c&k=c1&c=cpq&a=v&p=s&t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:05:59 -050000 From: arturo saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>; Subject: OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offer:C Message-ID: <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHOEPIEFAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>i   Hi all..  E Would anybody know what the Compaq link is to order the OpenVMS & WNT J Integration for Dummies?  I remember seeing a link for a free copy of this: book, but I can not for the life of me find it anywhere...   Thanks..   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:41:35 -0500l+ From: "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com>.? Subject: Re: OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offerr2 Message-ID: <QXSQ6.807$fi2.20508@news.cpqcorp.net>  / http://www.openvms.compaq.com/dummies_book.htmle   --	 Mike Kierl Compaq Professional Services Cincinnati, OH, USA  michael.kier@compaq.come  = "arturo saavedra" <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in messages= news:MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHOEPIEFAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com...i
 > Hi all.. >oG > Would anybody know what the Compaq link is to order the OpenVMS & WNTtL > Integration for Dummies?  I remember seeing a link for a free copy of this< > book, but I can not for the life of me find it anywhere... >a
 > Thanks.. >t   ------------------------------   Date: 29 May 2001 19:56:50 GMT- From: "Bill Pedersen" <pedersen@ccsscorp.com>y? Subject: Re: OpenVMS & WNT Integration for Dummies - Free Offers. Message-ID: <3b13ff44@kerberos.linuxpuppy.net>  H Go to either the OpenVMS homepage or their portal.  There is a link from there.  !     http://www.openvms.compaq.com        --
 Bill Pedersent CCSS Corporation CCSS Interactive Learningm
 www.VMS.St 831-336-2708 ================  = "arturo saavedra" <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote in messagei= news:MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHOEPIEFAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com...y
 > Hi all.. >wG > Would anybody know what the Compaq link is to order the OpenVMS & WNTrL > Integration for Dummies?  I remember seeing a link for a free copy of this< > book, but I can not for the life of me find it anywhere... > 
 > Thanks.. >r   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 15:06:24 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS locked up - How do I find out why?a3 Message-ID: <Ctb6LR+q8ibY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <slrn9h7jtl.i2d.seibel_r@localhost.localdomain>, seibel_r@localhost.localdomain (Rich Seibel) writes:: > We are not VMS experts, so a simple answer is preferred. > M > Our OpenVMS system locked up.  It was unresponsive to open windows on othersL > machines and did not respond to its console.  The led numbers on the frontB > showed FF.  The box responded to a power cycle and came up fine. > J > The question is, where/how do I determine what might have happened?  How > do I view the system log?n  H The answer was probably in memory, until you turned the power off.  NextE time please consult the VMS installation manual where you should findgH directions on how to force a system crash.  Details depend on what model VAX or Alpha you're running on.i  C "The system log" which might have information could be the hardwaret; error log, the accounting log, or the security audit trail..  D The simple answer is to read the System Manager's manual and use the. directions on how to read each of these files.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporatione= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupiE                                 | please remove ".aspm" when replying,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:28:36 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) 7 Subject: Re: OpenVMS locked up - How do I find out why?M1 Message-ID: <3b143de2.188544763@news.wcc.govt.nz>r   Rich,b  C As Bob as pointed out, the fact you've powered off and rebooted theh( machine will mean you've lost some info.  A Another place to look, try searching sys$manager:operator.log foru pagefile and/or swapfile.t  C If these pass a certain threshold of fullness, warning messages are  logged to Operator.log.sC If there are warning messages you will need to increase the size ofr your Page and/or Swap files.   Rob.  F On Tue, 29 May 2001 16:34:58 GMT, seibel_r@localhost.localdomain (Rich Seibel) wrote:  9 >We are not VMS experts, so a simple answer is preferred.r >sL >Our OpenVMS system locked up.  It was unresponsive to open windows on otherK >machines and did not respond to its console.  The led numbers on the frontuA >showed FF.  The box responded to a power cycle and came up fine.. >4I >The question is, where/how do I determine what might have happened?  Howo >do I view the system log? >s >Rich Seibel >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:04:27 +0100   From: steven.reece@quintiles.com> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMSH Message-ID: <OF0EECF682.BD68F521-ON80256A5B.00631BD3@qedi.quintiles.com>  H Oracle seem to break things on a regular basis just for the fun of it or2 under the illusion that it will add functionality.I My main criticism with it is that even when it goes wrong they claim thateK they are right and that it's Compaq's fault because there's something wronge with the operating system. Steve.   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >>>tE I've noticed a dramatic difference between the speed of Oracle Export A on VMS in version 7.3.2 vs 8.1.7. The 8.1.7 export is a whole lot C slower, exporting the same tables (from an 8.1.7 server) takes over G twice as long using the 8.1.7 export as it does using the 7.3.2 export.e <<<e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:56:30 -0300f) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br.> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMSL Message-ID: <OF029B1ADD.FAB93432-ON03256A5B.00627384@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  C Buy a faster disk and controller... this probably solves the slowlyi export.... :-)   Regardst   FC        B nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) em 29/05/2001 14:35:47  = Favor responder a nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)-             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-      : Assunto: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS      G   I've noticed a dramatic difference between the speed of Oracle Export-A on VMS in version 7.3.2 vs 8.1.7. The 8.1.7 export is a whole lot C slower, exporting the same tables (from an 8.1.7 server) takes overSG twice as long using the 8.1.7 export as it does using the 7.3.2 export.u  I   The difference seems to be in the way the two versions write the export I file. With 7.3.2 the file is created as a fixed record of 4096 bytes, buteG under 8.1.7 it's created as Stream/LF. It appears that the 7.3.2 exportbG is buffering stuff internally to fill the fixed length records, but the.A 8.1.7 export is writing stuff much more often - incurring greatert	 overhead.R  @   I suppose that on Unix, with it's "cache writes as long as youB can" approach the increased overhead isn't so bad, but on VMS it'sE a real pain. You'd think that if the older version did it right thereeI was no reason to break it in the new version. Is there any way to restoreSF the old behaviour or this just a "creeping Unixism" we'll have to live with?r   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 13:05:33 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)O> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS, Message-ID: <6luaZL8Q5aK5@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  M In article <OF029B1ADD.FAB93432-ON03256A5B.00627384@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>, T.    fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:E > Buy a faster disk and controller... this probably solves the slowly  > export.... :-) > A     Actually I worked around it by putting the export destinationwA on a disk on an HSZ20, and turning on writeback cacheing for thata? disk - lets you do several hundred IOs/sec to the disk ( if the 9 controller fails I can always just do the export again ).k  D    Still seems a kludgy solution to work around bad code, especially; when the older version of the program did it the right way.       :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:48:48 +0200 + From: "Fred A G" <nospam@allowed.localhost>f> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS7 Message-ID: <DTTQ6.24700$TD2.278545@news1.bredband.com>o  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:ePfDmTnEmYFx@malvm5.mala.bc.ca... >uB >   I've noticed a dramatic difference between the speed of Oracle ExportC > on VMS in version 7.3.2 vs 8.1.7. The 8.1.7 export is a whole lotoE > slower, exporting the same tables (from an 8.1.7 server) takes overiA > twice as long using the 8.1.7 export as it does using the 7.3.2e export.h >a  B when it takes that much longer, you are sure that no character set conversion is taking place?n  D >   The difference seems to be in the way the two versions write the exportG > file. With 7.3.2 the file is created as a fixed record of 4096 bytes,S butuB > under 8.1.7 it's created as Stream/LF. It appears that the 7.3.2 exportE > is buffering stuff internally to fill the fixed length records, butt thepC > 8.1.7 export is writing stuff much more often - incurring greateri > overhead.  >n  8 Did you MONITOR the two sessions for io and other stats?  ! Submitted a TAR with the problem?p   Regardsu /Fad   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:06:59 +02001+ From: "Fred A G" <nospam@allowed.localhost>t> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS7 Message-ID: <J8UQ6.24708$TD2.278975@news1.bredband.com>b  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message& news:6luaZL8Q5aK5@malvm5.mala.bc.ca... > In articleA <OF029B1ADD.FAB93432-ON03256A5B.00627384@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>,c0 >    fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br writes:G > > Buy a faster disk and controller... this probably solves the slowly  > > export.... :-) > >rC >     Actually I worked around it by putting the export destinationrC > on a disk on an HSZ20, and turning on writeback cacheing for thatoA > disk - lets you do several hundred IOs/sec to the disk ( if thel; > controller fails I can always just do the export again ).- >   G For how long? The write caching "delays" real operations, not much helpmH for a couple of hours long export? (or does your storage systems have oo+ amount of cache mem and fail-less UPS? ;-))n  C Anyway, as you said, not much of a solution. Why can't Q and O workh@ together on things like this instead (referring a bit to Steve's message)...   F >    Still seems a kludgy solution to work around bad code, especially= > when the older version of the program did it the right way.n >m >    :-)   Regards- /Fad   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:35:21 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)-> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS, Message-ID: <+nNFOFokSygz@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  8 In article <DTTQ6.24700$TD2.278545@news1.bredband.com>, 1     "Fred A G" <nospam@allowed.localhost> writes:e > D > when it takes that much longer, you are sure that no character set > conversion is taking place?e > 3     I'm sure, it's just the standard character set.i   > : > Did you MONITOR the two sessions for io and other stats? > B     Yes. IO seems to be the big difference - lots more disk IOs in 8.1.7e  # > Submitted a TAR with the problem?  >   F    Tried to, but metalink says my license isn't valid. I've got OracleD looking into it and will submit a TAR once that is straightened out.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:47:07 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)M> Subject: Re: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS, Message-ID: <toZuWlFkMtdG@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  8 In article <J8UQ6.24708$TD2.278975@news1.bredband.com>, 0    "Fred A G" <nospam@allowed.localhost> writes: > I > For how long? The write caching "delays" real operations, not much helphJ > for a couple of hours long export? (or does your storage systems have oo- > amount of cache mem and fail-less UPS? ;-)). > B     Actually it seems to help a lot. I think the situation is thatD EXPORT is updating each block multiple times sequentially ( eg worstF case scenario is that it's writing a byte at at time to the file ) andE so what's happening is that the block is getting updated in the cachelE before it ever hits the disk rather than having to wait for each diskt write to complete.  E     In any case - using the writeback cache on the controller makes a,D 3GB export run about twice as fast ( the controller only has 16MB ofE cache ), so it's certainly a lot more than just the initial "fill thep cache" effect.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:08:15 -0500i+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com>A> Subject: RE: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMSR Message-ID: <DC4745D1A85CA04180C83CDC706A9D180D964A@cthexc02.americas.cpqcorp.net>  C A few misc notes ..assuming VMS V7.2-1 .. the following may help ..o  0 Ensure the following VMS patches are installed:  - VMS721_SYS-V0800 (or later)l - VMS721_ACRTL-V0200 (or later) , - TCPIP V5.0A eco 2 (or TCPIP V5.1 eco 1) -   G Above VMS patches must be installed before the following Oracle patch -n  K Ensure the Oracle patch that addresses bug report 1416910 in the Oracle BUGv database is installed.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Compaq Canada Inc. Professional Servicess Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----B From: nothome@spammers.are.scum [mailto:nothome@spammers.are.scum] Sent: May 29, 2001 1:36 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms: Subject: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS      G   I've noticed a dramatic difference between the speed of Oracle ExportaA on VMS in version 7.3.2 vs 8.1.7. The 8.1.7 export is a whole lotcD slower, exporting the same tables (from an 8.1.7 server) takes over G twice as long using the 8.1.7 export as it does using the 7.3.2 export..  I   The difference seems to be in the way the two versions write the export I file. With 7.3.2 the file is created as a fixed record of 4096 bytes, but-G under 8.1.7 it's created as Stream/LF. It appears that the 7.3.2 export,G is buffering stuff internally to fill the fixed length records, but theaA 8.1.7 export is writing stuff much more often - incurring greater-	 overhead.   @   I suppose that on Unix, with it's "cache writes as long as youB can" approach the increased overhead isn't so bad, but on VMS it'sE a real pain. You'd think that if the older version did it right thereeI was no reason to break it in the new version. Is there any way to restorewL the old behaviour or this just a "creeping Unixism" we'll have to live with?   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 21:11:54 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)a> Subject: RE: Oracle Export 8.1.7 much slower than 7.3.2 on VMS, Message-ID: <NCxozsBvF1LL@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>   In article <DC4745D1A85CA04180C83CDC706A9D180D964A@cthexc02.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com> writes:E > A few misc notes ..assuming VMS V7.2-1 .. the following may help ..M > 2 > Ensure the following VMS patches are installed:  > - VMS721_SYS-V0800 (or later)o    SYS-V0900  ! > - VMS721_ACRTL-V0200 (or later)h    CHECK  . > - TCPIP V5.0A eco 2 (or TCPIP V5.1 eco 1) -     CHECK (5.1 eco 1) > I > Above VMS patches must be installed before the following Oracle patch -  > M > Ensure the Oracle patch that addresses bug report 1416910 in the Oracle BUGw > database is installed.  J   I can't find any reference to this bug number in the Metallink database.@ Can you give me some info on what it addresses? Does it apply to> Oracle 8.1.7? ( I can't see any patches that apply to 8.1.7 )    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:51:59 -0300y) From: fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br * Subject: Re: Performance Monitoring on VMSL Message-ID: <OFFD8A3F53.05706264-ON03256A5B.00620BD1@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br>  I They bought Datametrics's ViewPoint and "refurbished" it in SightLine - Io believe.7 I searched for OpenVMS too and didnt find anything.....-   Regards- FC        > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> em 29/05/2001 14:47:35  9 Favor responder a "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>f             Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComD      * Assunto: Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS    1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagep7 news:5a85bce2.0105290844.3087dd5d@posting.google.com...u >...B > I've been playing with (or "test-driving") Fortel's Sightline on4 > our main VMS system to monitor system performance. >...  B The graphs look great, but how on earth did you find out that thisC runs on VMS? I tried looking at www.fortel.com for a while before I&F gave up and went to AltaVista. A search on "+HOST:FORTEL" returned 110F pages, "+HOST:FORTEL +VMS" and "+HOST:FORTEL +OPENVMS" both returned 0E pages. I'm all for anything that will give me performance information E that does not involve CA, but how do we find these products when theyo1 don't include the magic words on their web sites?E   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:13:13 GMTa$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>* Subject: Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS) Message-ID: <3B142D78.70241993@wi.rr.com>s  K Contact the company directly.  I'm sure they'd sell you a copy of Sightline 
 regardless of- where you are.   -Scott  * fabio_compaq@ep-bc.petrobras.com.br wrote:  L > The product sounds great, but I am not sure if there are resellers in .BR. >-	 > Regardss >e > FC > G > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> em 29/05/2001 13:46:45r >eB > Favor responder a "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> >a >       Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt >C, > Assunto: Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS >M3 > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in messaged9 > news:5a85bce2.0105290844.3087dd5d@posting.google.com...J > > All: > >OD > > I've been playing with (or "test-driving") Fortel's Sightline on6 > > our main VMS system to monitor system performance. > >nK > > Feel free to take a look at the graphs I've created.  This is live datao > > from our system. > >iL > > Check out the number of I/Os per second on our new fibre-channel drives.	 > > Wow!!e > >MG > > I'm still working out the pricing on the Sightline product with ouruD > > local sales rep.  I want to purchase the product and continue to& > > use it to monitor this VMS system. > >aH > > I must also add that the tech support has been outstanding during my > > test-drive period. > >i1 > > The Sightline web pages for my system are at:i > > http://sightline.is.mcw.eduy > >l >e3 > Good luck! Fortel needs all the help it can get!!  >aL > FREMONT, CA - May 16, 2001 - FORTEL Inc. (Nasdaq: FRTL) received notice onM > May 15, 2001 from The Nasdaq Stock Market, Inc., effective with the open ofiJ > business on May 16, 2001, that The Nasdaq Stock Market had determined to > de-list FORTEL common stockw   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:18:25 GMT $ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>* Subject: Re: Performance Monitoring on VMS) Message-ID: <3B142EAF.AF865FDB@wi.rr.com>t  E Many moons ago, Compaq (or was it Digital then?) used to give out theh Datametrics Viewpoint clientJ software on a CD with new AlphaServer systems.  There used to be a link to DatametricseF on the Compaq (or Digital) web site under some sort of "Tools for VMS" section.  9 Datametrics is now Fortel and Viewpoint is now Sightline.-  D So I knew about this software from a few years ago.  I test-drove it before the big name change.A  J Also, IDX has chosen this product as their tool for performance monitoring on client's systems.   -Scott   Peter Weaver wrote:   3 > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message19 > news:5a85bce2.0105290844.3087dd5d@posting.google.com...  > >...D > > I've been playing with (or "test-driving") Fortel's Sightline on6 > > our main VMS system to monitor system performance. > >... >tD > The graphs look great, but how on earth did you find out that thisE > runs on VMS? I tried looking at www.fortel.com for a while before IeH > gave up and went to AltaVista. A search on "+HOST:FORTEL" returned 110H > pages, "+HOST:FORTEL +VMS" and "+HOST:FORTEL +OPENVMS" both returned 0G > pages. I'm all for anything that will give me performance information G > that does not involve CA, but how do we find these products when theyl3 > don't include the magic words on their web sites?    ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:41:31 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)hM Subject: Re: Presentation Collateral From VMS Technical Update Days in Londonu3 Message-ID: <dJpa9GcFDUIF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <%1uQ6.9343$zl5.3219753@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:o > H > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message/ > news:kh$FfBS0gAsL@eisner.encompasserve.org...lF >> In article <fr64ht00n9n2lvmmfje3othb5j6ee6a58i@4ax.com>, Alan Greig > <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > I >> > Assuming the Star Office port is completed we should be able to readgF >> > straightforward Powerpoint presentations such as these under VMS. >>M >> Assuming David Dachtera is chosen president of Compaq, their presentationsa. >> will not start out in a VMS-hostile format. >>2 >> I am not sure which of these is more likely :-) >> > L > From what I hear, it's gonna be "step aside, Michael... CEO Dave is here."H > StarOrifice on VMS has gone nil heard. T'was to have been an external,M > free-time "midnight" project; apparently the nights are short and free time7 > is in even shorter supply.  L I still have a few shares of stock, and I'll vote for Dave. That would solveG his current under employment problem. Any one know how to stage a proxy  fight?  K Any one know of a company that actually nominates enough candidates for the D officers / directors / whatever for there to be anything more than aE communist style election? Or is capitalism the ultimate dictatorship?l   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 14:19:11 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)5% Subject: Re: Rambus loses another oneh3 Message-ID: <5snm9A28QgAS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <OF124B9C5F.C7ED09DC-ON80256A5B.00594EBE@qedi.quintiles.com>, steven.reece@quintiles.com writes:a >  > 8 > It depends whether the market is saturated or not..... > Saturated market* > = no more customers for increased volume > = no more salesa > = no way prices will drop. >   = 	I disagree.  When PCs aren't moving, inventory builds up and F 	OEMs are forced to dump them causing a flood of product on the marketC 	and prices drop.  I wouldn't know how memory can be immune to thati 	same cycle.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:19:53 -0700r! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.como% Subject: Re: Rambus loses another one.D Message-ID: <OF94F89EA0.7ED3939A-ON88256A5B.00645326@foundation.com>  G      ""If Rambus goes bust does RDRAM get cheaper?"  Concensus seems toy<      be yes as their royalty slice diminishes or goes away."  E I hope so, but there is an alternative scenario. If Rambus goes bust, F wouldn't the liquidators sell off the assets? Isn't their intellectualJ property a sellable asset? If so (and remember, I'm not a lawyer so I haveH no idea), Intel could buy it, and charge royalties. You /know/ AMD would( have an interesting time licensing it...   Shanem          ? young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) on 05/25/2001 09:09:29 PM   7 Please respond to young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)<   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0 cc:8  & Subject:  Re: Rambus loses another one    D In article <OF286501FE.35C2C4DB-ON88256A57.0082DFF0@foundation.com>,# Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com writes:xF > After their recent defeat (and indeed conviction for fraud) in their courttA > case against Infineon in the USA, Rambus just lost another one:t >aI >              Italian court finds Micron did not infringe Rambus patentsl9 >              http://www.ebns.com/story/OEG20010524S0043i >sH > Unlike the American case, the patents were upheld in this instance but theiI > judge ruled that Micron hadn't infringed on them. In the Infineon case,- the-H > judge is still considering whether to rule the patents unenforcable or not.+ > There's some other cases outstanding too.m > J > Since EV7 (or is it 8?) has integrated Rambus controllers, I wonder whatC > this means for Alpha? I know these disputed patents are for SDRAMaJ > technology, but Rambus does seem to be depending on these royalties, andH > the court cases aren't cheap. If Rambus go bust, does that mean RambusF > memory gets cheaper? After all, Rambus the company don't manufactureG > anything, they licence the technology to others to do that for a fee.. >x  <      EV7 and EV8 both with integrated Rambus mem controller.  F      "If Rambus goes bust does RDRAM get cheaper?"  Concensus seems toE      be yes as their royalty slice diminishes or goes away.  A felloww@      in one forum pointed out "how else are you going to get theE      bandwidth into the CPU?  Nothing else can do it."  Sure you can..B      Just add 5000 pins to your package.  Bandwidth per pin is theA      gating factor and I leave it as an exercise to search Googlet@      for "Spink" and "Rambus" about two years back.  He won that#      debate hands down (bandwidth).r  6      Intel is solidly behind RDRAM.  No need to worry:  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/24050108.htm-    G This all leads The Inquirer to the somewhat ineluctable conclusion thata despitecJ hopes for Brookdale, Brookdale M and the rest, Intel is still very much on the-D side of Rambus Ink. And, as we reported a few days back, it is still	 hell-benta: on promoting RDRAM RIMMs as the memory platform of choice.  H And, by the way, if you think that this is some weird conclusion, we can onlyK point to conversations we had with Intel's Pat "Chip" Gelsinger at the lastt IDFsI we attended, where he said that RDRAM is more scaleable than DDR, despite  cost and other issues.e    B      Ah heck.. here (again for about the 3rd time) is the relevantA      bandwidth stuff for Rambus and one of the best arguments fors<      RDRAM that you will see in a public forum (My opinion):    . From: Aaron Spink (spink@kraftwerk.pa.dec.com), Subject: Re: Fuel on the Rambus v. DDR fire. Newsgroups: comp.archl Date: 1999/11/15        ! dennydb@aol.com (DennyDB) writes:s    B > 1) higher price....probably always >1.3x due to extra circuits + royalities + > packaging + cooling.  B Well, the high end DDR which is still being promised for some day,F will have to have the extra circuits, packaging, and cooling.  This is" just life with high speed signals.    9 > 2) higher power due to PLL and 800Mhz on-chip circuits.   @ DLL not PLL.  Basically anything with high speed signalling will require a DLL.  G > 4) lower B/W per memory controller pin...although 800Mhz is fast, thec same pinsI > could run >2Ghz point-to-point between the memory controller and bufferv chips.+ > driving DDR. This is the server solution.n >1F No it isn't.  Understand that you actually have to package things intoD systems.  Yes, you could run at 2 Ghz, then drop down to really wideC DDR.  Now you've introduced yet another clock domain crossing whichnA will require sync time.  You need a lot of extra chips, each withiF there own pins, and which will probably have to be custom designed for your implementation.  E And on top of all this, you added more latency.  This latency will belI greater than any latency difference between DDR and DR, real or imagined.s    A > These issues will keep D-RDRAM out of servers and workstations.- >-  D On the contrary, I see the BRIGHTEST future for DR in the server andE workstation markets.  There is already one announnce design that will.B be using Rambus, and I have the upmost confidence in the designers
 designing it.D  E There are rumors that several more(aka all) are planning to use DR inw future systems.   F The issue with DDR is that to extract the same amount of bandwidth you$ have to use 2-4x the number of pins.     Aaron Spinks not speaking for Compaqo   ---                        Rob.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:31:36 -0700X! From: Shane.F.Smith@HEALTHNET.COMe% Subject: Re: Rambus loses another oneeD Message-ID: <OFBABC8AE2.00CF04C1-ON88256A5B.0070B624@foundation.com>  / Cynicism does not necessarily imply inaccuracy.i   Shaneh          4 steven.reece@quintiles.com on 05/29/2001 06:17:44 AM  , Please respond to steven.reece@quintiles.com   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn cc:c  & Subject:  Re: Rambus loses another one        ! Right Answer : Yes, it should do. H Real Answer : no it won't because the companies making the Rambus memoryE will just stash the extra cash away rather than passing on their cost  reductions to their customers.   Or am I just cynical?P Steve.   Shane asked: >>> H Since EV7 (or is it 8?) has integrated Rambus controllers, I wonder whatA this means for Alpha? I know these disputed patents are for SDRAMnH technology, but Rambus does seem to be depending on these royalties, andF the court cases aren't cheap. If Rambus go bust, does that mean RambusD memory gets cheaper? After all, Rambus the company don't manufactureE anything, they licence the technology to others to do that for a fee.  <<<    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:34:17 +0200l) From: Christof Brass <brass@infopuls.com> % Subject: Re: Rambus loses another oneq, Message-ID: <3B1415D9.7B4DC6FB@infopuls.com>  " Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com wrote: > I >      ""If Rambus goes bust does RDRAM get cheaper?"  Concensus seems toe> >      be yes as their royalty slice diminishes or goes away." > G > I hope so, but there is an alternative scenario. If Rambus goes bust,wH > wouldn't the liquidators sell off the assets? Isn't their intellectualL > property a sellable asset? If so (and remember, I'm not a lawyer so I haveJ > no idea), Intel could buy it, and charge royalties. You /know/ AMD would* > have an interesting time licensing it... >  > Shanee  @ This is exactly what will happen and there are some cases in the= short history of Sillicon Valley where this happened. I don't = remember the name but there was a case with a startup companyt? selling network processor schemata/plans to other companies whof built them.i  < One important question is what the licence agreements state.= Some of them are obviously already signed and these contractse> normally continue to last even if one of the business partners
 goes bust.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:07:47 GMTp From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..comr Subject: Re: The future of VMS8 Message-ID: <q7v7htoh1gjsrutf1b7kd9d549lq1na0h3@4ax.com>  < On 29 May 2001 14:04:41 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  @ >In an attempt to aid in the continuing existence of VMS, I have? >decided to try and take positive action.  However, I will needu >a bit of information first. >c >Background:; >   We have a required course for all of our seniors called : >   "Senior projects". :-)  I am considering proposing the; >   porting of one (or maybe two) of the currently popular w, >   X toolkits to VMS as potential projects. >. >Questions:n >a; >   Which toolkit(s) would the VMS community here most likel  >   to see ported??  GTK??  QT?? >o: >   I currently have available for student use a couple of; >   VAX 4000's and VMS 7.1.  If the porting effort is takenK> >   using this base will it be merely a matter of re-compiling3 >   to make it work on Alpha or newer VMS versions?  >c9 >   Would people here object to students involved in thisa9 >   project bringing questions here when they get stuck??s: >   It is unlikely that any student accepting one of these1 >   projects will have any VMS experience at all.e >18 >   For those who may have already ported something from7 >   the Unix environment to VMS, is it likely that this:8 >   project could be accomplished by one or two students >   in a single semester?? t >n; >Any information will be greatly appreciated.  The students1; >are int he process of selecting projects for the Fall now.n= >If I am to get this going I need to get a project written upf >and posted quickly. >f >billt  7 if X toolkits look to be too hairy/too long a project, e or hard to test:  5 the most common initial stumbling block in a vms port<3 of some unix tool, is often  the autoconf/configurei) steps, ie getting a usable build script. t  n& Maybe look at a VMS port of autoconf ?  1 perhaps not doable without a working unix shell; 8 GNU bash might work for this, . but, iirc, it assumes/uses v7.3 rtl libraries.   other thoughts:   9   mySQL  (Dan O'Rielly, process.com had started on this?).  " or, perhaps one of the DBM api's  7 (My recollection is that autoconf was a stumbling blocko  here also)o  5 SleepyCat (berkeley) had done a VMS port of at least i> one of the DBM api's.  at least according to their web site.     ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 15:54:49 -0500 From: gleason@encompasserve.orgf Subject: VAX 8650 boot failure3 Message-ID: <xb1n4GeAr1TN@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  D   I have a VAX 8650, that refuses to boot - fails with "UNKNOWN MACHG CHK" when I try. One theory being bruted about here is that the battery @ back up is dead, and this is preventing the boot from succeding.  A   While I'm skeptical about that theory, I'd like to eliminate it C from consideration here. I recall dimly that there is a jumper thatoE can be placed on the backplane that disables use of the battery back tG up circuitry, yet allows normal operation - anyone remember the detailss of this trick?     Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultantsr lgleason@houston.rr.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:25:51 GMTa$ From: Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com>7 Subject: Re: Very odd:  Init/erase is controller-based?n) Message-ID: <3B14306D.723FF500@wi.rr.com>.   Jumping Jiminy!!  N The HSGs really kick the HSJs when it comes to raw read and write performance.   Thanks for the URL.h  
 -Scott :^)  B > I believe Table 1 of the below shows the write limits of various > fibre channel components:l >e > http://www.compaq.com/sups7 > ort/techpubs/installation_guides/ek-sma34-an-a01.html  >iC > Note: I believe many of the maximum configuration restrictions inl( > the application note have been lifted.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:44:22 +0200 5 From: "Rainer Faulstich" <Rainer.Faulstich@surf24.de>  Subject: vms Emulation on NT( Message-ID: <3b14176b@news.bodensee.com>   Hi,u  J is there any Open VMS Emulation for AXP available that runs under Windowns5 NT ? Is there any SAMBA for VMS under AXP available ?g  
 Thanks Rainery   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:28:19 GMTR4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: vms Emulation on NT= Message-ID: <7oVQ6.11065$zl5.3883971@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>i  L > is there any Open VMS Emulation for AXP available that runs under Windowns7 > NT ? Is there any SAMBA for VMS under AXP available ?- >-  2 closest thing I can think of is www.charon-vax.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:39:50 GMTs& From: thompson_n.o.s.p.a.m@athenet.net  Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation3 Message-ID: <qjXQ6.176$eK3.92841@typhoon.kc.rr.com>i  D My VS3000/m76 tracks the temperature of an outdoor hot tub and sendsB alarms via a combination of perl and DCL scripts. This conserves aI considerable amount of energy in Northern climate winter.  But it doesn't 0 do anything for the disadvantaged or endangered.  0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:G : Actually, no - BSR X10 toys are exactly what I'm *NOT* talking about.t  B : I'm doing about doing something, in an automated way, that mightI : actually conserve energy, assist the physically disadvantaged or save ag : life or two.   : -- 9 : David J. Dachtera. : dba DJE Systems. : http://www.djesys.com/  < : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board:! : http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c  H : This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings : is to be expected.  B : Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  H : However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are : strongly discouraged.S   -- L   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:30:19 -0700 ! From: Shane.F.Smith@HEALTHNET.COMeC Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)'D Message-ID: <OF18D5304C.50FE83CC-ON88256A5B.0065345D@foundation.com>  G Sounds like you want an X10 controller for VMS. I believe there are X10pI units for all those things except maybe the thermostat. There again, justMF because I haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A VMS portI would probably be possible, there are controllers that plug into a serialnG port, and the low level specs seem to be available for writing softwarey against them on a PC.e  F X10 uses a radio signal to send a message to a central control device,F which relays it through your home's wiring to the appropriate numberedB device to turn it on or off. I've got my place wired with it.  See www.x10.com.   Shane           J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) on 05/27/2001 06:43:17 AM  E Please respond to Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)    To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> cc:   @ Subject:  VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)    ; In article <3B100CB3.C8E45BF6@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"a <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a  . > I can see developing *TRUE* home automation. >.D > No, I'm not just talking about turning lights on and off by remoteI > control, or making coffee before you get up (a timer will suffice here) F > or cranking up the heat/cooling before you arise or return home fromJ > work (an automatic thermostat will suffice here, within limits), either. > J > I'm talking about sounding an alarm or automatically taking action under > certain circumstances:  A There is a starting point (VMS-based) provided by John Covert at:l  B      http://eisner.decus.org/DECUServe/DECnotes/VMS/3064/SDIR.HTML   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:32:12 -0700o! From: Shane.F.Smith@Healthnet.com:C Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)mD Message-ID: <OF10EF8A9F.6D8F0D11-ON88256A5B.0065C2DC@foundation.com>  H ...Remind me to check the link before posting, next time. Apparently X100 is exactly what the referenced posting is about.   Shane           J Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) on 05/27/2001 06:43:17 AM  E Please respond to Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen)u   To:   Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comp cc:   @ Subject:  VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)    ; In article <3B100CB3.C8E45BF6@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"o <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:-  . > I can see developing *TRUE* home automation. >hD > No, I'm not just talking about turning lights on and off by remoteI > control, or making coffee before you get up (a timer will suffice here)"F > or cranking up the heat/cooling before you arise or return home fromJ > work (an automatic thermostat will suffice here, within limits), either. >eJ > I'm talking about sounding an alarm or automatically taking action under > certain circumstances:  A There is a starting point (VMS-based) provided by John Covert at:   B      http://eisner.decus.org/DECUServe/DECnotes/VMS/3064/SDIR.HTML   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:03:03 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>uC Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)e' Message-ID: <3B13F267.44802CA8@fsi.net>b  " Shane.F.Smith@HEALTHNET.COM wrote: > I > Sounds like you want an X10 controller for VMS. I believe there are X10oK > units for all those things except maybe the thermostat. There again, justfH > because I haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A VMS portK > would probably be possible, there are controllers that plug into a serialcI > port, and the low level specs seem to be available for writing softwarew > against them on a PC.5  E Actually, no - BSR X10 toys are exactly what I'm *NOT* talking about.   @ I'm doing about doing something, in an automated way, that mightG actually conserve energy, assist the physically disadvantaged or save a  life or two.   -- f David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f  F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.d   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 17:00:54 -05003 From: malmberg@encompasserve.org (John E. Malmberg)hC Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)R3 Message-ID: <DnVB6aKQe4pz@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  ' In article <3B13F267.44802CA8@fsi.net>,y3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: ( > Shane.F.Smith@HEALTHNET.COMPANY wrote: >>J >> Sounds like you want an X10 controller for VMS. I believe there are X10L >> units for all those things except maybe the thermostat. There again, justI >> because I haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A VMS porteL >> would probably be possible, there are controllers that plug into a serialJ >> port, and the low level specs seem to be available for writing software >> against them on a PC. >TG > Actually, no - BSR X10 toys are exactly what I'm *NOT* talking about.  > B > I'm doing about doing something, in an automated way, that mightI > actually conserve energy, assist the physically disadvantaged or save ae > life or two.  F Any aparatus that directly controls an energy source like a heating orE cooling system must pass regulatory tests.  The X-10 devices for thisc purpose have done so.h  H Of course putting a small X-10 controlled heater underneath a thermostatM does not strike me as a good method, but as I understand it things are better  now.  + The cost obstacles for home automation are:   J 1. Network infrastructure.  Unless you have expensive custom wiring, or an4    expensive wireless network, X-10 is what is left.  H 2. Regulatory passed devices that will operate the motors needed to openL    or close windows / blinds, that also have the required network interface.I    Have you priced these?  Not cheap.  Of course in many homes the is not &    a power outlet close enough to use.  I 3. Sensors that can detect when the environment has changed.  The sensorseI    are actually cheap, until you need to connect them to either a network,J    or dedicated wire.  This part can actually double as a security system.  H 4. Incandesant light controllers are low cost, but ones that can dim canH    not be used with flourescent lights.  Flourescent controllers are not	    cheap.o  G    Energy efficient light bulbs may not work well with dimmers that are     not designed just for them.  I The computational power needed to supervise all of this is actually quitenH small.  Not nearly worth the effort of more than an imbedded controller.H A low cost industrial Programmable Logic Controller would be a good fix.  H If you look at most of the commercial systems, any PC is only being used8 as a gui front end to the dedicated imbedded controller.  K Imbedded controllers of this type are now being designed with built in httpr servers for their GUI.  G Simple mechanical timers and thermostats are right now provide a better H return on investment than any computer controlled system for home energy8 control, if you need to put this into an existing house.  F For a new house, paying attention to energy efficient designs and HVAC( systems will also have the best payback.    N In the case of systems to assist the disabled, multiple autonomous controllersG are still preferred instead of a central system.  These have to surviveoK either a power failure, or a network failure.  I would expect these to haveR7 even stricter regulatory overview than home automation.e     -Johnx Personal Opinion Only. wb8tyw@qsl.network   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:44:13 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>3C Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)e, Message-ID: <3B14344B.D4BCFCC4@videotron.ca>  " Shane.F.Smith@HEALTHNET.COM wrote:I > Sounds like you want an X10 controller for VMS. I believe there are X10tK > units for all those things except maybe the thermostat. There again, justnH > because I haven't seen them, doesn't mean they don't exist. A VMS port > would probably be possible,   H Been there done that back in 1989. Haven't looked at the source for thatL program, but I do use it everyday. I never bothered with a GUI since it is a7 lot faster to just say "X10 OPEN C 2"  at the $ prompt.m  I This was in the early days of VMS programming, but I had to do individualsJ QIO's for each character sent to the unit because a single QIO to the unitL (works at 600 baud) seemed to fast. (probably would have needed to have more stop bits).p  H You learn that some locations in home won't work at all, some doN't workF reliably and some work reliably. The transmitter in the unit is not as2 powerful as what is inside the manual controllers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:53:11 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>0C Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)o, Message-ID: <3B143664.93A0C7E8@videotron.ca>   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:mJ > 4. Incandesant light controllers are low cost, but ones that can dim canJ >    not be used with flourescent lights.  Flourescent controllers are not >    cheap.y  K Solid state transformers for halogen lights wreak havok on X10 because theywL generate a lot of RF that hides the X10 signals nearby. You can forget aboutK controlling such devices. Halogens that run off the line (110v) are fine as 3 are the older halogens that used real transformers.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:13:53 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>sC Subject: Re: VMS Home Automation (was: Affordable VMS Workstations)d' Message-ID: <3B146571.7E958E91@fsi.net>a   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:n > [snip]- > The cost obstacles for home automation are:p > L > 1. Network infrastructure.  Unless you have expensive custom wiring, or an6 >    expensive wireless network, X-10 is what is left.  H Well, not really. Done right, simple "telephone wire" (commonly known asG "class 2 wiring" or "low voltage wire") should be usable to connect the10 individual sensors to the computer interface(s).  jJ > 2. Regulatory passed devices that will operate the motors needed to openN >    or close windows / blinds, that also have the required network interface.K >    Have you priced these?  Not cheap.  Of course in many homes the is nota( >    a power outlet close enough to use.  H That wheel has already been invented. X10 is little more than a toy, butB its what we've got. Let's stick to monitoring and warnings/alarms.  oK > 3. Sensors that can detect when the environment has changed.  The sensorseK >    are actually cheap, until you need to connect them to either a network.L >    or dedicated wire.  This part can actually double as a security system.  G Maybe, once the product matures and has gained a modicum of acceptance.e  rJ > 4. Incandesant light controllers are low cost, but ones that can dim canJ >    not be used with flourescent lights.  Flourescent controllers are not >    cheap.t  H Again, let's not re-invent those wheels. We'll live with X10 toys, until something better comes along.   jI >    Energy efficient light bulbs may not work well with dimmers that are   >    not designed just for them.  H ??? Not sure what that might mean, unless "Energy efficient light bulbs"A is used to deliberately obscure the line between incandescent and E flourescent lights. Here again, we'll leave the dimming task (DIMMIT,o DAMNIT!) to the X10 toys.n    > [snip]I > Simple mechanical timers and thermostats are right now provide a betteriJ > return on investment than any computer controlled system for home energy: > control, if you need to put this into an existing house.  F ...but do not provide the flexibility of being sensitive to changes inB the outdoor environment, so that the cooling can activated when anE outdoor air temperature rise is followed by an indoor air temperature,H rise. Nor do such things provide for warnings or alarms when things suchH as furnace filters, air conditioning coils, etc. have accumulated, shall( we say, too much "deferred maintenance".  sH > For a new house, paying attention to energy efficient designs and HVAC* > systems will also have the best payback.  H Energy efficient designs, oddly enough, are part of what makes this typeE of system all that much more important: the "tighter" a house is, theaE greater the danger from CO due to flue blockage, or even use of a gas D stove. Some new homes here in sub'n Chgo. are prohibited to have gasE stoves because they were built to be so air-tight. One developer even-H uses dual hot water tanks to provide both hot potable water and heat forE the house (Bigelow Homes) - NO BOILER! ...and guarantees no more than F $200/yr in heating costs (well, that's shot to heck now with the price of heating fuels!).t  F This problem is exacerbated by some efforts to reduce indoor pollutionF using electrostatic air cleaners. There is currently, to my knowledge,H no such thing as an "ozono-ostat" to limit the EAC and prevent excessiveA levels of ozone indoors. The system proposed should be capable ofeF limiting the operation of an EAC to keep the indoor ozone level within predetermined limits.t  rP > In the case of systems to assist the disabled, multiple autonomous controllersI > are still preferred instead of a central system.  These have to survive M > either a power failure, or a network failure.  I would expect these to havey9 > even stricter regulatory overview than home automation.a  C The idea here is to provide assistance (voice actuated?) for when aeG "physically challenged" person is alone, for whatever reason, and needsnE assistance. Rather depends on the assist, device, etc. Even so, theseaB autonomous systems can be monitored and their "health" tracked for warning/alarm purposes.   A Still, I appreciate what you're saying. Eventually, some level of-8 regulation will need to be dealt with. This is a given.   E Regulations are there to protect, not to serve as obstacles. I prefervF rather than view regulations as obstacles, to instead incorporate such$ contingencies into my business plan.   -- a David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  : Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page and Message Board: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   F This *IS* an OpenVMS-related newsgroup. So, a certain bias in postings is to be expected.  @ Feel free to exercise your rights of free speech and expression.  F However, attacks against individual posters, or groups of posters, are strongly discouraged.I   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:10:24 +0200 : From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>" Subject: Re: VMS password cracking- Message-ID: <3B1480C0.F4C29867@volkswagen.de>t  Z We use the PWCHECK.EXE from the VMS installkits to check for weak passwords. The syntax is like* 	test check 'usnam' /guess /exclude=('ex')  t_ with test:==$dir:pwcheck.exe and EX being a list of passwords to check for. The program createso? a symbol VMS$SECURE as WEAK if the password is considered weak.y   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:r > 4 > In article <01c0e85a$f6211dc0$120ba8c0@rlhkikker>,5 > "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen#radiolinja.fi> writes:I > > Hi,t > >gM > > Our computer security people asked me if there exists a program, that can J > > check if people are using  as passwords the words that are listed in a< > > file. That is if I have a file that includes for example > >  > > password > > 12345678
 > > etc... > >rL > > the program checks from SYSUAF.DAT how many users are using listed (bad): > > passwords and makes some kind of statistics out of it. > L > What you are describing is a brute force password checker.  It is probably" > possible to port one to OpenVMS. > F > There are also third party system security products that may provide > that functionality.L > F > OpenVMS does a one way encryption of a password.  There is no way toG > recover the original password to do a test.  To test all possible bada' > passwords is very resource intensive.- > G > Since the simplest thing is not to allow the bad password at all, whyo > bother with a program. > " > > I think this can be done usingG > > $GETUAI etc ,but if someone already has this kind of program I'd bea
 > > grateful.e > >e+ > > OS. 7.2-1H1 Alpha and we have DEC C 6.0  > L > OpenVMS since about V5.3 checks a dictionary of such common words and will' > not allow them to be set by the user.b > E > This dictionary can be extended by the system administrator, and is . > documented in the Guide for System Security. > K > Once you add your list of forbidden passwords to the list, after the last M > current password expires, your statistics should be very easy to calculate.  >  > -Johni > Personal Opinion Onlyn > wb8tyw@qsl.network   -- /  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardse   Karl Rohwedder               KC iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig eA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/54348430E  E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de r+          karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.dea DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:15:30 -0500c% From: "Rich Jordan" <rjordan@mcs.net>u, Subject: VMS price increases, rumor or fact?3 Message-ID: <ms_Q6.3762$j02.82902@news.goodnet.com>t  K My boss tells me  he heard that VMS is getting a 15% across the board price I hike on licenses.  He gets all the admin and pricing info, I get the techcI stuff, so I don't know what he got that says that, from Compaq or another L source, or what specific products or licenses are supposedly being affected. Is this in fact the case?-   Rich Jordan, rjordan@mcs.net2   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:59:22 +0100a+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>s/ Subject: Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware questionf' Message-ID: <3B13E37A.BC717027@iee.org>h   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: >  > dgordon@compaq.com writes: > G > > The InfoServer 150 would have provided  a challenge since it had nod > > floating point.yE > > The InfoServer 1000 was a VAX in the chip sense only.  There's noi! > > chance it would ever run VMS.l > J > So in both cases, additional money was spent to artificially segment the	 > market.e   Maybe. Maybe not.   . DECnis was built using culled SOC chips. These1 were chips which worked except for floating point 7 and not as much of the cache had to work. DECnis needed'9 no FP and knew how to turn on just the working bit of thee0 cache (there was a minimum size of working cache4 guaranteed). This obviously allowed chips that would5 have been useless for a general purpose OS to be usedn (hence perhaps saving money).i  : So building an infoserver and NOT putting a CVAX FPU on it5 (but still using the basic VS3100 design) sounds likee? a sensible way of getting to market quickly *and* saving money.v  5 Later on, once they knew what the market was and whatD= features and performance were needed, maybe it was worthwhile-8 designing a special box with just the necessary bits and5 pieces to do the job. The fact that such a box cannot:7 possibly ever run VMS would not necessarily be an issue  one way or the other.    It sounds like management'st7 must-not-run-vms edict was met simply by making a minor 4 change to the boot ROM. The fact that later hardware= was fundamentally incompatible with VMS was just a by-productj8 of the design - i.e. they did not waste money making the= box work that way. At least some - perhaps all - LPS printerso5 had some sort of VAX chip running VAXeln inside them; 3 booting OpenVMS on any of those may not be possiblew
 either :-)  2 Of course, this does not mean that insanely stupid8 decisions were not made (I don't know - I was not there)- but there seems to be little evidence for it.c   Antonioe   -- r   ---------------i- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:09:37 +0100i- From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk>o/ Subject: Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware questionS) Message-ID: <3B13E5E1.4D302620@bbc.co.uk>i   "antonio.carlini" wrote:   > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > >s > > dgordon@compaq.com writes: > >eI > > > The InfoServer 150 would have provided  a challenge since it had no, > > > floating point.gG > > > The InfoServer 1000 was a VAX in the chip sense only.  There's no0# > > > chance it would ever run VMS.o > > L > > So in both cases, additional money was spent to artificially segment the > > market.D >D > Maybe. Maybe not.c >a0 > DECnis was built using culled SOC chips. These3 > were chips which worked except for floating pointr9 > and not as much of the cache had to work. DECnis neededu; > no FP and knew how to turn on just the working bit of thea2 > cache (there was a minimum size of working cache6 > guaranteed). This obviously allowed chips that would7 > have been useless for a general purpose OS to be usedw > (hence perhaps saving money)  > Bad example, what about all those Futurebus development costs?= Surely savings in the CPU cost were minimal compared to this?t   >n >P< > So building an infoserver and NOT putting a CVAX FPU on it7 > (but still using the basic VS3100 design) sounds like,A > a sensible way of getting to market quickly *and* saving money.t >e   agreed.    --6 Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project0 MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.A Email tim.llewellyn@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.ukr  A I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those ofr MedAS or the BBC.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:56:37 GMTd From: dgordon@compaq.com/ Subject: Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware question * Message-ID: <3b140b4d.4638331@news.mv.net>  . On 29 May 2001 17:20:59 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:   >dgordon@compaq.com writes:t >mF >> The InfoServer 150 would have provided  a challenge since it had no >> floating point.D >> The InfoServer 1000 was a VAX in the chip sense only.  There's no  >> chance it would ever run VMS. > I >So in both cases, additional money was spent to artificially segment thee	 >market. s >e  A Nope.  Removal of the floating point bits and changes to make theeB InfoServer 150 use a standard rather than a custom cab (as the 100F required) were done to reduce the cost of the hardware.  The 150 had a* faster (and cheaper) network chip as well.  @ The InfoServer 1000 was implemented in the same form factor as a@ CD-ROM drive.  Everything that wasn't strictly necessary for theD InfoServer was left out.  In effect, it was a CVAX chip and a custom@ gate array for all the other necessary binding bits for the CPU,C memory and network daughter card (designed that way because we werer: originally going to offer AUI, ThinWire and UTP variants.)   --Doug   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:59:51 GMTo From: dgordon@compaq.com/ Subject: Re: VXT2000 hardware/firmware questions* Message-ID: <3b140d51.5155088@news.mv.net>  @ On 24 May 2001 18:44:14 +0200, holitska_a@ludens.elte.hu (Holi - Holitska Andrs) wrote:e  G >Do you still know anyone of the VXT group? Are there any chances, thatmF >they are reading this newsgroup regularry? Can you point me into some/ >direction, where to search, for further clues?n  B AFAIK everyone I worked directly with when the groups were sharing development space is gone.    --Douge   ------------------------------    Date: 29 May 2001 13:57:09 -0700' From: c_goudy@hotmail.com (Chris Goudy)i Subject: Writing a MAIL script= Message-ID: <48f4addd.0105291257.439596df@posting.google.com>a   Hello, e  O I am hoping to write a Mail script that emails a user's Windows NT/Lotus Email  C box whenever a user emails a VMS account from a VAX/ALPHA terminal.0  J What my problem is, is that I would like to capture whatever a user types.  E so they run their email like normal and the whole time I'm capturing 4 everything they type..  O Then after the mail is sent, I read what they typed and send out a copy of the e email to the NT account.  ; Anyone know how to capture this? I can't think of anything.i   Any help would be great    Thanks,,   Chris Goudyh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:41:00 -0400n' From: Jim Becker <jbecker@ui.urban.org>e" Subject: Re: Writing a MAIL script, Message-ID: <3B146BCC.F9925CD2@ui.urban.org>  > If I understand the need correctly, why not set up forwarding?  9 Example: MAIL> set forward/user=juser juser@somewhere.comh  A Henceforth, whatever is sent to the VMS account juser goes to thes indicated destination.   Chris Goudy wrote: >  > Hello, > P > I am hoping to write a Mail script that emails a user's Windows NT/Lotus EmailE > box whenever a user emails a VMS account from a VAX/ALPHA terminal.k > L > What my problem is, is that I would like to capture whatever a user types. > F > so they run their email like normal and the whole time I'm capturing > everything they type.  > P > Then after the mail is sent, I read what they typed and send out a copy of the > email to the NT account. > = > Anyone know how to capture this? I can't think of anything.o >  > Any help would be greatn > 	 > Thanks,w > 
 > Chris Goudyt   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/)s' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/) . ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:39:08 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>4 Subject: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS< Message-ID: <wVSQ6.7343$QP6.4633240@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  , Windows users pay extra for hacker insurance By Erich Luening Staff Writer, CNET News.coma May 29, 2001, 11:50 a.m. PTu  < http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6077282.html?tag=prntfr   -- Terry C. Shannon Consultant and Publisher Shannon Knows Compaq  email: terryshannon@mediaone.net$ Web (info on SKC):  www.acersoft.com   ------------------------------   Date: 30 May 2001 01:52:24 GMT- From: Joe Heimann <heimann@nog.ecs.umass.edu>a8 Subject: Re: Yet Another Reason Why Windoze .ne. OpenVMS, Message-ID: <9f1joo$q2a$1@odo.ecs.umass.edu>  3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:1. > Windows users pay extra for hacker insurance > By Erich Luening > Staff Writer, CNET News.come > May 29, 2001, 11:50 a.m. PT   > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6077282.html?tag=prntfr  % Similar story was also on Yahoo news:   0     http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010529/tc/3     insurer_considers_microsoft_nt_high-risk_1.htmlh   (URL wrapped to two lines)   Joe Heimannt   heimann@ecs.umass.eduw   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.297 ************************