1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 09 Nov 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 624       Contents:% Re: Alpha to Itanium Technical Update @ Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC BusinessD Re: Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC BusinessD Re: Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC Business, Re: Another missed opportunity for Alpha/VMS6 CLIUTL 2.0 ECO prevents showing username on SHOW ENTRY: Re: CLIUTL 2.0 ECO prevents showing username on SHOW ENTRY Re: Compaq guarantees? Re: Compaq guarantees? Re: Compaq guarantees? Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble  Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble  Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble  Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble  Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble $ Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking$ Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking$ Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking$ Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking- Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking (Memory) - re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking (Memory)  Re: Comparison of defragmenters  Re: Comparison of defragmenters  Re: Comparison of defragmenters  Re: DECUS in many names ! Re: DHCP client software for VMS?  Re: Disk DefragmentersD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthD Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMS Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMS Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMS Filesystem (disk) size?  filk humour ) Re: Global Sections for IPC - performance 2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!2 Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger! Re: HP/Compaq merger Re: HP/Compaq merger Re: HP/Compaq merger Re: HP/Compaq mergerP Re: I WILL QUIT USING VMS WHEN THE MILITARY DOES - IN 2015 OR MAYBE LONGER! LONG@ Re: Is TCP/IP really needed to install WEBES and Compaq Analyze? LIB$xxx  Re: LIB$xxx  Re: LIB$xxx  RE: LIB$xxx  RE: LIB$xxx 
 MMS & ODS5 Re: MMS & ODS5 Re: MMS & ODS5* Need help, was: Re: Rob's British Champion Re: OT - HP's MPE-IX Re: OT - HP's MPE-IXE Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking E Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking E Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking E Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking  Test -- Ignore# Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP # Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP # Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP # Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP  Undocumented FMS driver calls " Verify contents of the floppy disk& Re: Verify contents of the floppy disk& Re: Verify contents of the floppy disk/ Re: VMS upgrade and SCSI disk firmware question / Re: VMS upgrade and SCSI disk firmware question ! Re: VMS721_Mount96-v0300 Question  Re: welcome.txt  Re: welcome.txt - Re: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS - Re: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS - RE: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS * What do you think of the HP/Compaq merger?. Re: What do you think of the HP/Compaq merger? Re: [Help]Serial QIO Code   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:25:28 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> . Subject: Re: Alpha to Itanium Technical Update$ Message-ID: <3bec117e$1@news.si.com>  L >Gaitan D'Antoni will be presenting a valuable to our ISV's and customers on >the following dates:   3 A valuable what?  There seems to be a missing word.  --  A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 07:43:19 GMT ) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) I Subject: Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC Business ' Message-ID: <9sg1en$cgq$2@joe.rice.edu>  Keywords: hp,drop,pcs   =     http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/061243.htm D     Analysts suggest HP could benefit by dropping out of PC business  F    "SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - If Hewlett-Packard Co. wants to clinch aH     controversial deal to buy Compaq Computer Corp., analysts say it mayG     have to jettison the business that the combined companies aspire to !     dominate: personal computers.   G     The future of the personal computer business, and HP's stake in it, H     is at the heart of the disagreement between HP Chief Executive CarlyC     Fiorina and disgruntled investors, including key members of the '     Hewlett-Packard founders' families.   D     Calling off the controversial merger will not shove the genie ofG     ``reinvention'' back into the bottle for the 62-year-old technology I     stalwart, and Fiorina's ouster would not settle the problems that led F     HP to bring in an outsider to shake up the the firm two years ago,     analysts said.  G     ``This is not a referendum on the merger,'' said Lehman analyst Dan F      Niles. ``It is a referendum on Carly and her vision. It is also a5      referendum on should HP be in the PC business.''   J      Bear Stearns analyst Andrew Neff, who called for the merger before itJ      was announced and has been cool to the idea since, has suggested thatI      if HP doesn't build up by buying Compaq it should slim down to focus J      on printing. That means one thing: ''Get out of the PC business,'' he      wrote in a recent note.  H      Personal computers, a low-profit-margin segment which would make upG      a quarter to a third of the roughly $90 billion in revenues of the J      combined firm -- which would become the leading PC maker in the world*      -- has been a main focus of the deal.      .      .      .J      ``From a short-term perspective, one could argue that Hewlett-PackardE      as a printer company could be worth around $20 per share,'' Bear K      Stearns's Neff said. ``From a longer-term perspective, Hewlett-Packard C      would have focus and vision and the potential to re-emerge as        a leader.''..."  6 The article doesn't mention "unix", "VMS" or "server".   --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:25:26 -0500 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> M Subject: Re: Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC Business 2 Message-ID: <HdnrO=4npwlHTSL10GO3shztEfS3@4ax.com>  6 My response to the people finally figuring this out is "No shit, sherlock!"   David R. Beatty   F On 9 Nov 2001 07:43:19 GMT, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) wrote:  > >    http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/061243.htmE >    Analysts suggest HP could benefit by dropping out of PC business  > G >   "SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - If Hewlett-Packard Co. wants to clinch a I >    controversial deal to buy Compaq Computer Corp., analysts say it may H >    have to jettison the business that the combined companies aspire to" >    dominate: personal computers. > H >    The future of the personal computer business, and HP's stake in it,I >    is at the heart of the disagreement between HP Chief Executive Carly D >    Fiorina and disgruntled investors, including key members of the( >    Hewlett-Packard founders' families. > E >    Calling off the controversial merger will not shove the genie of H >    ``reinvention'' back into the bottle for the 62-year-old technologyJ >    stalwart, and Fiorina's ouster would not settle the problems that ledG >    HP to bring in an outsider to shake up the the firm two years ago,  >    analysts said.  > H >    ``This is not a referendum on the merger,'' said Lehman analyst DanG >     Niles. ``It is a referendum on Carly and her vision. It is also a 6 >     referendum on should HP be in the PC business.'' > K >     Bear Stearns analyst Andrew Neff, who called for the merger before it K >     was announced and has been cool to the idea since, has suggested that J >     if HP doesn't build up by buying Compaq it should slim down to focusK >     on printing. That means one thing: ''Get out of the PC business,'' he  >     wrote in a recent note.  > I >     Personal computers, a low-profit-margin segment which would make up H >     a quarter to a third of the roughly $90 billion in revenues of theK >     combined firm -- which would become the leading PC maker in the world + >     -- has been a main focus of the deal.  >     .  >     .  >     . K >     ``From a short-term perspective, one could argue that Hewlett-Packard F >     as a printer company could be worth around $20 per share,'' BearL >     Stearns's Neff said. ``From a longer-term perspective, Hewlett-PackardD >     would have focus and vision and the potential to re-emerge as  >     a leader.''..."  > 7 >The article doesn't mention "unix", "VMS" or "server".  >  >--Jerry Leslie    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:39:37 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) M Subject: Re: Analysts Suggest HP Could Benefit By Dropping Out Of PC Business 3 Message-ID: <1RrUpEt4+1wq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   S In article <9sg1en$cgq$2@joe.rice.edu>, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) writes:   H >    "SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - If Hewlett-Packard Co. wants to clinch aJ >     controversial deal to buy Compaq Computer Corp., analysts say it mayI >     have to jettison the business that the combined companies aspire to # >     dominate: personal computers.      	Like this is rocket science.    	Breaking News:   > 		"Industry analysts have determined that the ACME corporationC 	would be much better off if they shed their Spizzy Widget division 6 	that lost them another $150 million again this year."   	Sheesh.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Nov 2001 12:16:33 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 5 Subject: Re: Another missed opportunity for Alpha/VMS H Message-ID: <y47kt0b3e6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   L > Also, what is involved in producing a hardened version of a CPU ? Just theA > casing of the chip, or is it also inside at the silicon level ?   K Apart from what Bob mentioned, you have to be resistant to a process called M latch-up. You can easier design the chip such that it isn't susceptible to it M (very costly and difficult), or you do what Clementine (IIRC) did: you have a N simple circuit observing the processor's power draw, and when that contines toH rise over a certain time, you reset it. AFAIK, this worked well, using a3 standard, off-the-shelf processor (probably MIPS).     	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:14:00 +0100. From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@aster.si>? Subject: CLIUTL 2.0 ECO prevents showing username on SHOW ENTRY 0 Message-ID: <6JPG7.1069$x52.31216@news.siol.net>   Hi,   C After instaling VMS721_CLIUTL V2.0 on VMS 7.2-1 I can no longer see G usernames in SHOW QUE/ALL and SHOW ENTRY regardless of my privileges. I - always get "no privilege" on username column.    best, Gorazd     --4 ----------------------------------------------------
 Gorazd Kikelj  OpenVMS system support Aster d.o.o. e-mail: gorazd.kikelj@aster.si www:  www.aster.si   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:36:28 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com>C Subject: Re: CLIUTL 2.0 ECO prevents showing username on SHOW ENTRY > Message-ID: <wZQG7.46558$zK1.12386440@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  K Now that makes two queue mangaer problems reported with this patch.   I had L them pospone that patch last week while I tried to get more information.  WeJ are heavily dependent on the queue manager system for our applications.  IJ am going to postpone this patch again till I can  find out more aobut thisB problem.  Does it happen for everyone?   Is anyone researching it?  9 "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@aster.si> wrote in message * news:6JPG7.1069$x52.31216@news.siol.net... > Hi,  > E > After instaling VMS721_CLIUTL V2.0 on VMS 7.2-1 I can no longer see I > usernames in SHOW QUE/ALL and SHOW ENTRY regardless of my privileges. I / > always get "no privilege" on username column.  >  > best, Gorazd >  >  > --6 > ---------------------------------------------------- > Gorazd Kikelj  > OpenVMS system support > Aster d.o.o.  > e-mail: gorazd.kikelj@aster.si > www:  www.aster.si >  >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:41:52 GMT 3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)  Subject: Re: Compaq guarantees? , Message-ID: <9sg4sg$pat@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  , In article <9sebbm$1q1k$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>,- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: - >In article <3BEA9C36.6F00C631@videotron.ca>, 1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  >|> E >|> The board may oust the CEO, but who can oust the board en-masse ?  >  >The stockholders, I thought.   G   Most of them are large mutual funds or retirement systems.  It's much G easier just to give up on the jerks and sell your stock and find better H places for your money.  It's too bad if you think the products are great but the management are idiots.   -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:56:05 GMT 3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)  Subject: Re: Compaq guarantees? , Message-ID: <9sg5n5$pgu@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  , In article <3BEB5EC3.3050908@tsoft-inc.com>,* David Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > E >And why should he waste his money?  If I had a portion of that 'few  C >hundred million' I'd much rather buy a tropical island, install a  I >runway, and have the option of laying in the sun, or in the shade under   >the wing of my jet.  :-)   L    Now, how can we convince Bill Gates to do that and leave the world alone?   -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 17:03:16 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Compaq guarantees? * Message-ID: <9sh28k$sb$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  A In article <7iBG7.62541$7x1.5399089@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, -  "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  |>O |> Not entirely clear.  If the deal doesn't not specify limitations on Compaq's J |> option to resurrect Alpha, then they only put the gun (solidly) to bothM |> feet, and with inspired prosthetic surgery *could* walk again if they were O |> so inclined:  while most of the EV8 engineers have gone to Intel, the design M |> may have been far enough along to be completed by the EV7 engineers Compaq L |> has left (plus any of those encouraged to leave who became convinced thatE |> this time EV8 was for real and found Itanic less to their liking).   F Well, unless The Emancipation Proclamation was revoked sometime when I0 wasn't looking, what's wrong with this scenario:   Merger falls thru.N   Comnpaq's new managment decides to revive Alpha and VMS as core technolgies.L   Compaq advertises for Processor Engineers to work on new Alpha processors.G   Former Alpha Engineers leave Intel and take jobs with the new Compaq.   J I do not believe ther is any kind of agreement between those two companiesJ that could bind the employees or restrict in any way their ability to earn	 a living.    |>  D |> That still may leave compilers in question, but if EV8 is largelyN |> compiler-invisible (as long as no one starts trying to use SMT fine-grainedE |> on single logical threads) that might not be an immediate problem.    See the scenario above!!	   |> 2M |> Resurrecting EV8 and succeeding with it would also be a suitable manner insO |> which to emphasize the utter incompetence (and/or personal greed in defianceHF |> of their fiduciary obligations) of the unprincipled, lying bastardsL |> currently at the helm, and about the closest legal alternative to tarring= |> and feathering them and riding them out of town on a rail.E  
 Agreed, 100%.2   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:12:41 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>p( Subject: Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble8 Message-ID: <2ranutsui3pag6rj3osklhnk9be5n9vpum@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:09:37 GMT, Peter Hern <Peter.Hern@Compute.com>r wrote:   >From:R >http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&s=AO_r3lRY0Q29tcGFx >m  \ >The company has $3.94 billion in cash and equivalents, a server business that analysts said] >is worth more than $8 a share on its own and a brand name that's well regarded by consumers.r/ >Hewlett-Packard backing off wouldn't end that.   C So analysts are now coming to the view that it is mainly the ex-DECoA and Tandem bits of the company which are worth saving. Even going E further than that and saying the company would actually *increase* inoE current value if it got out of the PC market. Maybe just maybe thingsg are looking up.n     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:17:08 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n( Subject: Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble8 Message-ID: <21bnutsrgj66vae78vie7t88p9ndsui3je@4ax.com>  F On Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:51:11 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >tJ >> While investors say Fiorina may lose her job if the purchase dies, they >said 47-year-oldaL >> Capellas has the skill to help Compaq survive alone. Capellas, who became >CEO in July 1999,8 >> has built a reputation as a savvy operations manager. >>M >> ``He's tried to turn around a huge battleship,'' Ahlsten said. ``I hope her >survives because 7 >> he knows better than anyone what needs to be done.''P >mG >Doesn't do much good if he knows but chooses to do the exact opposite, * >though - as has heretofore been the rule. > L >Off with his head!  Marcello for CEO!  Time for the profit-pooch to wag the0 >dragging tail rather than the other way 'round.  D If Compaq were to truly re-focus on the Enterprise I can think of no: better initial choice. Have Ken Olsen on the podium at the@ announcement along with Bell and Supnick etc. Guaranteed to grab/ attention and really flag a change in strategy.n   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 13:12:44 -0000o= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> ( Subject: Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble6 Message-ID: <20011109131244.25630.qmail@gacracker.org>  ; On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: F >On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:09:37 GMT, Peter Hern <Peter.Hern@Compute.com> >wrote:e >y >>From: K >>http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&s=AO_r3lRY0n
 >>Q29tcGFx >> >eJ >>The company has $3.94 billion in cash and equivalents, a server business >>that analysts saidG >>is worth more than $8 a share on its own and a brand name that's wellb >>regarded by consumers.0 >>Hewlett-Packard backing off wouldn't end that.  > I wonder which brand name the anal-ists were referring to? :-}  D >So analysts are now coming to the view that it is mainly the ex-DECB >and Tandem bits of the company which are worth saving. Even goingF >further than that and saying the company would actually *increase* inF >current value if it got out of the PC market. Maybe just maybe things >are looking up.  % That wasn't quite how I read it . . .>    G     "It will have to adopt the Dell model" of direct sales, said Niles.     I I assume that means in relation to Wintel boxes. So I assume the analystsdK still quickly skip over the real profit-making parts of the company because ' of its history. Just like Q management.      Doc. -- v6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net"   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 07:57:55 -0600-- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)3( Subject: Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble3 Message-ID: <5tX8EL1lzgN1@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ` In article <2ranutsui3pag6rj3osklhnk9be5n9vpum@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:G > On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:09:37 GMT, Peter Hern <Peter.Hern@Compute.com>l > wrote: >  >>From:eS >>http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&s=AO_r3lRY0Q29tcGFxa >> > ] >>The company has $3.94 billion in cash and equivalents, a server business that analysts said ^ >>is worth more than $8 a share on its own and a brand name that's well regarded by consumers.0 >>Hewlett-Packard backing off wouldn't end that. > E > So analysts are now coming to the view that it is mainly the ex-DEC C > and Tandem bits of the company which are worth saving. Even goingrG > further than that and saying the company would actually *increase* in G > current value if it got out of the PC market. Maybe just maybe things  > are looking up.   8 From what I have seen here, that would be _one_ analyst.  & Not counting Terry Shannon, of course.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 16:46:48 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ( Subject: Re: Compaq/HP merger in trouble* Message-ID: <9sh19o$sb$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <21bnutsrgj66vae78vie7t88p9ndsui3je@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: |>G |> If Compaq were to truly re-focus on the Enterprise I can think of noe= |> better initial choice. Have Ken Olsen on the podium at theaC |> announcement along with Bell and Supnick etc. Guaranteed to grabp2 |> attention and really flag a change in strategy. |>  ? Yes, but their all engineers.  How long would it be before they @ were pushed aside by the next wave of marketeers??  I do have toB admit the presentation given by the three of them would be a sight to see.n   billD (Hmmmm....  could you envision the announcement of the 128-processor 2.4Ghz PDP-11.  :-)    -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:14:42 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> - Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking 8 Message-ID: <e37nut0n5obsa23mqro56se6us946fput6@4ax.com>  < On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 23:58:30 GMT, dittman@dittman.net wrote:   > O >What I find interesting is a company that is supposed to know what is going onP> >recommends that Compaq/HP kill their most profitable product.  D And they not only agree on that point they then go on to say that itE is normal in the computer industry to sacrifice your profitable breadN@ and butter products in favour of low margin Windows systems. TheC analyst's view appears to be that current industry policy is insane F and as HP/Compaq are among the pack leaders they should be the leadersF in insanely destroying their own products and customer loyalty to themC by using the loyal customer revenue to explicitly piss them off andi% drive them towards inferior products.e   >aO >:> As to the root question, I recommend that concerned VMS users look up theirT% >:> counterparts who own HP 3000's.  n >,L >: Are HP 3000 users based on a dead chip and with a migration to IA64 too ? > I >Late last year I had to work with some HP3000/MPE systems.  HP was stillbJ >actively updating the OS.  The newer HP3000 systems (from what I was told& >by an HP employee) use a PA-RISC CPU.  A HP continues to keep MPE just about up to date enough for currentaF needs but it has had  less work done on it than VMS. HP's plans are toE support MPE on the IA64 but via the IA64's hardware assisted softwareh& emulation of the PA-RISC architecture. -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:08:09 -0800D( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kickinge= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090908.41e096af@posting.google.com>r  s "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<dwiG7.49095$7x1.4546371@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...h8 > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:P2vdnt59e7mS@eisner.encompasserve.org...i9 > > In article <3BE99AA6.9BE22DD0@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei'( > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > J > The problem is, transitioning to another platform also has major upsidesK > that simply migrating to VMS on Itanic does not.  At least it does unlessoH > the ISV is planning on using his/her product as a cash cow in the sameI > manner that Compaq uses VMS, in which case the ability to bleed captive J > customers on a product that may not have any wider audience anyway could
 > make sense.r > N > For any other ISV (that doesn't already offer its product on other platformsN > and thus have even less reason to bother migrating the VMS version), portingN > to a vastly more popular platform may well make a great deal more sense thanF > expending the effort to accommodate the portion of the shrinking VMS- > population that may wish to move to Itanic.0 >  > - bill  K if you call blue screens and spending 80% of my time patching security bugsP5 a major upside, your above comment makes no sense ...-   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:10:17 -0800q( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kickingu= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090910.594d5b4f@posting.google.com>e  f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<JZYOV6xOdt3Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>...b > In article <4pikutscos6r1b0n7u8u94qt5uqf56sucj@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:G > > On 7 Nov 2001 15:34:56 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 
 > > wrote: > > q > >>In article <ZkhG7.90118$U7.7305726@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:i > >>> L > >>> If you want to throw capability aside (though I suspect most customersK > >>> aren't that stupid), there's still the small problem that last time IiP > >>> checked you couldn't buy *any* Itanic platform for anything near the price > >>> of a DS10. > >>>  > >>@ > >>	Ummmm.. how about if you want 16 GBytes of memory, have you > >>	made that comparison? > >  > > Rob, > > H > > Could you explain the physical difference between Alphaserver memoryG > > and Itanium memory and what justifies Compaq's factor of 5-10 pricey	 > > hike?b > >  > C > 	No.. and having been down that path numerous times.... it is one E > 	of the few profit centers for large system sales for most vendors.oC > 	You can do similar comparison on other large Unix boxes... theireA > 	prices may not be as out of line but are certainly higher thant > 	"Wintel" kit. > H > 	A few years ago I put together a sizable Alpha configuration $$$ and E > 	wanted very badly to go 3rd party on memory as it would have saved9C > 	a ton of money.  Things worked out.  I still would have liked tosB > 	go 3rd party as the $ savings were still substantial but I alsoH > 	realize that Digital took a beating on the sale.  My goal is to save D > 	the client (employer/whatever) money.  I also realize Compaq and G > 	others are in the business of making money on hardware sales.  There"D > 	is a tension there.  I don't want to be rude with sales folks but; > 	I also want to be a good steward and spend money wisely.p > B > 	Which if you think about it . . . VMS on Itanium knocks one legB > 	out of the argument to knife VMS.  I forsee a day when there isD > 	a bid ... a very large bid... perhaps governent... perhaps not...E > 	but it is a VMS + Itanium kit versus Solaris and Sparc kit... whenDD > 	the smoke clears the all powerful BeanCounters have the final sayD > 	and the VMS bid wins as it is $3-4 million cheaper.  This ItaniumD > 	thing won't be a bad thing.... trust me.  Yes, it may be an AlphaF > 	thing at first until Intel gets those switches on chip and the good. > 	Doctor Emer delivers the SMT special sauce. > 	 > 				Robt  H correct, as long as intel massages alpha design for vms into the itanic!   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:11:40 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090911.6addaa0a@posting.google.com>/  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<e37nut0n5obsa23mqro56se6us946fput6@4ax.com>... > > On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 23:58:30 GMT, dittman@dittman.net wrote: >  > >-Q > >What I find interesting is a company that is supposed to know what is going ono@ > >recommends that Compaq/HP kill their most profitable product. > F > And they not only agree on that point they then go on to say that itG > is normal in the computer industry to sacrifice your profitable breadsB > and butter products in favour of low margin Windows systems. TheE > analyst's view appears to be that current industry policy is insaneIH > and as HP/Compaq are among the pack leaders they should be the leadersH > in insanely destroying their own products and customer loyalty to themE > by using the loyal customer revenue to explicitly piss them off andt' > drive them towards inferior products.m >  > >mQ > >:> As to the root question, I recommend that concerned VMS users look up theirt' > >:> counterparts who own HP 3000's.  d >  oN > >: Are HP 3000 users based on a dead chip and with a migration to IA64 too ? > > K > >Late last year I had to work with some HP3000/MPE systems.  HP was still0L > >actively updating the OS.  The newer HP3000 systems (from what I was told( > >by an HP employee) use a PA-RISC CPU. > C > HP continues to keep MPE just about up to date enough for currentcH > needs but it has had  less work done on it than VMS. HP's plans are toG > support MPE on the IA64 but via the IA64's hardware assisted software ( > emulation of the PA-RISC architecture.  B but a port would be better, as emulation kills 40-50% of your cpu!   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:17:42 +0100 (MET)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>6 Subject: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking (Memory)6 Message-ID: <200111090717.IAA11948@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Alan Greig wrotes:   >>>BC Memory chips for the Alpha and Itanium server are probably the same8E DIMS anyway!  Official Compaq Alpha memory is overpriced to an almostrE criminal degree. High quality new third party Alpha memory can be had : for a *tenth* of current Compaq prices if you shop around. <<<a  D Is that your experience? Our experience is, that the memory of AlphaE servers is very different to them of industry standard. E.g. The DS20cI and ES40 memory are 200 pin DIMM, AFAIK the industry standard (PC memory)nF is 172pin. Also the memory between two Alpha servers are incompatible.H DS20 memory works only in the DS20 and the ES40 memory only in the ES40.H Could it be a beautiful day, if this memory would be compatible. I couldH install ES40 1GB DIMMS in the DS20 and could get as many memory for that as I want (16GB).w   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:08:55 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>n6 Subject: re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking (Memory)7 Message-ID: <00A04C97.62AD0D22.23@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>r   > Alan Greig wrotes: >  > >>>kE > Memory chips for the Alpha and Itanium server are probably the samerG > DIMS anyway!  Official Compaq Alpha memory is overpriced to an almostrG > criminal degree. High quality new third party Alpha memory can be hada< > for a *tenth* of current Compaq prices if you shop around. > <<<i > F > Is that your experience? Our experience is, that the memory of AlphaG > servers is very different to them of industry standard. E.g. The DS20nK > and ES40 memory are 200 pin DIMM, AFAIK the industry standard (PC memory) H > is 172pin. Also the memory between two Alpha servers are incompatible.J > DS20 memory works only in the DS20 and the ES40 memory only in the ES40.J > Could it be a beautiful day, if this memory would be compatible. I couldJ > install ES40 1GB DIMMS in the DS20 and could get as many memory for that > as I want (16GB).  >  > Regards Rudolf Wingert >   H Can't vouch for the ES's above, but there are companies such as Daratam : and Camintonn that make compatible memory modules for just@ about anything that doesn't use industry-standard DIMMs. My pastL experience is that these cost 2-3 times more than industry-standard [SD]IMMs= and 2-3 times less than the system manufacturer's own memory.i  I You're also assuming that the DS20 has the necessary addressing lines andpM controller logic to handle more than its current maximum. This may or may notnO be true. For example, many old PCs have a stated max of 384MB (3 x 128Mb DIMM).gG If you plug in 256Mb DIMM, you may find that it doesn't work at all, or.C that two of them give you 512Mb and a third makes it stop working. aJ (I'd not recommend such DIY experimentation on an ES ... "stop working" is potentially permanent).H   	Yours,a
 		Nigel Arnotw- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   g  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:28:24 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: Comparison of defragmenters= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090828.77078eb6@posting.google.com>   W Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<3BE9661D.650C07@127.0.0.1>... I > I've missed the original poster of this question seems ours news server $ > is short of space for articles :-( > 8 > Someone asked about DFO vs. PerfectDisk vs. Diskeeper. >  > I have not used DFO. > F > I traded up from an _early_ version of Diskeeper to Perfectdisk, for > this main reason:i > A > Perfectdisk has a defragmenting methodology which helps prevent E > fragmentation. Firstly old files (not often accessed) end up at theaC > edges of the disk (most head movement, less likely to be accessed H > 'regularly', or deleted leaving a 'hole'), more often accesed file areI > placed centre and slight off centre (less head movement, more likely tohJ > be deleted, but 'holes' closer together), a volatile area where recentlyE > created and perhaps soon to be deleted files (holes) will be, and aeI > reasonably consolidated lump of free space, the volatile and free areas  > being more or less central.c > G > For this reason, I find you can run Perfectdisk less often (therefore  > less CPU). > F > This is just my opinion which may or may not help you to a decision!  G i have used perfectdisk for many years, as a matter of fact, i know the-I man who wrote the rabbit code that perfectdisk is based on, bill davy ...-L we used his original defragmentor for rsts/e when i started 16 years ago ...F there is no better defragmentor for vms out there than perfectdisk ...M for caching use perfectcache, for auto rms reorganization use perfectfile ...9B for tuning use perfecttune ... all great products to make vms fly!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:14:54 +0000Y( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>( Subject: Re: Comparison of defragmenters) Message-ID: <3BEC0F0E.D92905E3@127.0.0.1>w   Bob Ceculski wrote:rI > i have used perfectdisk for many years, as a matter of fact, i know thelK > man who wrote the rabbit code that perfectdisk is based on, bill davy ...nN > we used his original defragmentor for rsts/e when i started 16 years ago ...  G It was a session in the UK given by Bill that convinced us to try PD asi he explained its principles.  H > there is no better defragmentor for vms out there than perfectdisk ...O > for caching use perfectcache, for auto rms reorganization use perfectfile ...sD > for tuning use perfecttune ... all great products to make vms fly!  B Well I'd be inclined to say a BACKUP/RESTORE because you'll end upF cleaning the INDEXF.SYS, but I think it depends on the situation, someG techniques may suit others better because many environments have uniqueuE conditions, and that applies for all the products you mention. I haveeF seen systems where the additional overhead is in fact a straw breakingE the camels back, or simply upsets a delicate balance. It will be more > than once that I've found my 'generic' policies do not suit anE environment, and the advice in the VMS Performance Manual is so true.E (When to stop or not fiddle!).  F I wrote my own dynamic tuner in Robomon, but I had a set of conditionsF that wasn't suited to other automatic tuners' methodology. VMS was VMS and behaved impeccably!c --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comm   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 17:27:51 +0000 (UTC); From: hibbits@Encompasserve.org (Jim Hibbits - RAXCO, Inc.)s( Subject: Re: Comparison of defragmenters/ Message-ID: <9sh3mn$d3q$2@grandcanyon.binc.net>o   >rJ >But, LBNs near the edge of a logical disk may not correlate with physicalK >blocks near the edges of the platters.  It is also quite conceivable that eI >a fragmented file places the data on the physical platters in such a wayg$ >as to limit/minimize head movement.  E But _usually_ the LBNs map to PBNs.  If things get re-vectored, then,i oh well, we tried.  J This really dusts up the issue of placing files, though.  The "other guys"F would have you believe that these performance "issues" are the reasonsG that we do it, but, as usual, that's not the _real_ issue we are tryingnH to deal with.  We "they" didn't come up with it, and did not participateK in the discussions.  Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.A  H We figure that with a strategy (pick one?), at least we can re-apply theE strategy on subsequent passes.  The goal is to minimize the number ofeF files we have to move on these subsequent passes to save I/O bandwidthE and CPU time.  In other words, if it ain't broke, we don't try to fixn it.t   > J >FYI, I'm not knocking PerfectDisk, I'm just checking to see if you under-* >stand what it claims it is doing for you.  K _We_ don't make these claims, other than as potential side-effect benefits.sH Again, the "other guys", use this to try to shoot holes in the placement! operation.  They're simply wrong.    Jim Hibbitsi Raxco Software, Inc.4 Providers of PerfectDisk and other performance stuff
 I support it.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 19:07:08 +0010 ' From: <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au>n  Subject: Re: DECUS in many names5 Message-ID: <01KAIEJGK0IA0007YO@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>0   Dave Froble wrote:   [snips]<  & >*International Individual Member-$135  J That's probably over $300 au to me, having lost track of the money market @ betwixt .au and .us.  I find it disheartening enough .au to .uk.  H >Real strategic!  Watch the membership drop with this one.  So much for J >the free hobbyist license.  While you're kilking Alpha and VMS, might as $ >well take out the users group also. >oE >I'd consider dues for a VMS organization.  (Guess I'm still an easy tG >mark.)  But $90 out of my pocket to rub sholders with windoz and ipaq m >users?  HA!  L If those denizens wanted the benefit of my shoulders, they should pay me -- , I've got VMS shoulders.  I can cluster mine.  O Change that to "VMS *user* organis(z)ation".  To a fellow .au inhabitant, what r do you feel Jeremy?u   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 07:26:35 -0800f) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)q* Subject: Re: DHCP client software for VMS?= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0111090726.2590cfdd@posting.google.com>:  a Beyonder <beyonder@vrx.net> wrote in message news:<ks53utg5sdft7of3s95ivg12ges6htdrul@4ax.com>... F > is there any way or software for VMS to set it up so it can get it's > IP address via DHCP ?0 >   D Not sure I saw all of this thread, however I'm using the DHCP client
 here at home:e   $ tcpip show ver  7   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1r7   on a Digital AlphaPC 164 500 MHz running OpenVMS V7.3t  C Works well with the Australian Telstra BigPond cable modem interneteG service. Last year that would have been BigPong, however this year theyeC have been excellent - except for that $260 monthly bill a couple of)% months ago that I won't go into here.   C I did give bonus points to the heldesk operator at one point "Yes Ir? know about VMS,  I didn't know VMS would work with our service"w  H I had a bit of a problem with the lease time. I would be "dropped" afterG six hours, rendering my connection "dead" and needing a TCP/IP Servicess restart.  I Setting the "lease_desired" to a very small time in CLIENT.PCY solved theaF problem. I don't know why - don't ask me - ask Telstra - I'm only intoE DHCP at a consumer level - unless I need to troubleshoot it (grumble,t2 Telstra, grumble, Window(tm) PC Culture, grumble).   <WEIRD>(ethernet and UPS)pH BTW, it is cool to wire your house for twisted pair ethernet in a numberI of rooms and claim you have a "central riser with a hub and cable modem".a <P>yK That would be until someone gives you a UPS. Your *favorite* OpenVMS box iso9 in a room, some 20 metres of cable away (think about it).h
 <ENDWEIRD>   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 17:15:06 +0000 (UTC); From: hibbits@Encompasserve.org (Jim Hibbits - RAXCO, Inc.)  Subject: Re: Disk Defragmenterst/ Message-ID: <9sh2uq$d3q$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>t  D >PerfectDisk seems to be more secretive about what it has been doingG >(although I may have just not discovered the right qualifiers yet). ItoA >prints a summary every half hour of how many files it has moved.-  G Such extensive logging is available via the undocumented, but supportedlB qualifiers /LOG=TEST/TEST.  More information than you really want.   >They1= >seemed obsessed with the disk optimisation (rather than just.G >defragmentation) and doing everything in a single pass (I really can'toC >see how doing things in one pass is any better than using 2 or 3).a  * Multiple passes = more I/O + more CPU time  ? >Yesterday I set up a test disk (using a command file I created G >fragmented files of various sizes), and ran PerfectDisk. It ran for 18a? >hours, and the disk was more fragmented when it finished! This E >included there being a large number of multi-header files which wereo >not there when it started.d  G Ah yes.  There is a qualifier, /MULTI which instructs PD to consolidatelE multi-header files.  It was once the default, but was changed severalDE versions ago.  The latest version has /MULTI restored as the default.oB If you are a current, supported customer, you can obtain the newer code from your vendor.   >Martin Hunt >Systems Administrator >Independent Newspapers Limitedw >Wellington  >New Zealand   Jim Hibbitsy Raxco Software, Inc.= Source of PerfectDisk and other OpenVMS performance products.i I support 'em.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 04:20:21 -0600u- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)bM Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widtha3 Message-ID: <8qJH7KZzilgZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  [ In article <3BEB5E1B.49778517@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   I > When a <DEL> is received and the cursor is already at column 1, somehowa- > you must accomplish *ALL* of the following:w   <snip the details>  I > What if it's a *REALLY* long line and wraps to a total of three displayo > lines? What then?    That was a nice summary.  G > My advice would be to get the VMS source listings, find the code thatnE > needs a fix, write and test the fix, and donate the code to OpenVMSd/ > engineering to see if they will implement it.o  > If the fix works for all cases, I think they will be grateful.8 If it was easy, they probably would have done it by now.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:22:40 +0100 (MET).9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>+M Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width ; Message-ID: <01KAI0DSHQPC90UTW5@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>w  F > Well, o.k. Understand what you're asking for here. In VMS terms, ...  F As I've pointed out before, the NEWSRDR program, which has a very VMS B look and feel (similar to VMS MAIL---which of course also has the F edit-long-lines problem), has no problem in this area, so it can't be  THAT difficult.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:33:16 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>cM Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width13 Message-ID: <8RRG7.1439$RL6.46765@news.cpqcorp.net><  > The problem is that DCL relies on the terminal driver for thisE functionality, and nobody has wanted to try and tackle the multi-lineiI editing problem in the terminal driver.  If DCL were doing it all itself, # then the task would be far simpler.   G BTW - in a DECterm, you can handle lines as wide as 256 characters (thehJ widest width set term/width supports).  Set your terminal width to 256, goK into OPTIONS->DISPLAY and enable horizontal synch and the horizontal scrollo bar.   _Fred    Phillip Helbig wrote in message 2 <01KAI0DSHQPC90UTW5@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...G >> Well, o.k. Understand what you're asking for here. In VMS terms, ...o > F >As I've pointed out before, the NEWSRDR program, which has a very VMSB >look and feel (similar to VMS MAIL---which of course also has theF >edit-long-lines problem), has no problem in this area, so it can't be >THAT difficult.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:48:49 +0100 (MET)p9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>sM Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width ; Message-ID: <01KAI7I99BEG90UTW5@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a   Fred wrote:g  ! > Phillip Helbig wrote in messager4 > <01KAI0DSHQPC90UTW5@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...J > > > Well, o.k. Understand what you're asking for here. In VMS terms, ... > > H > >As I've pointed out before, the NEWSRDR program, which has a very VMSD > >look and feel (similar to VMS MAIL---which of course also has theH > >edit-long-lines problem), has no problem in this area, so it can't be > >THAT difficult. > @ > The problem is that DCL relies on the terminal driver for thisG > functionality, and nobody has wanted to try and tackle the multi-lineuK > editing problem in the terminal driver.  If DCL were doing it all itself,1% > then the task would be far simpler., > I > BTW - in a DECterm, you can handle lines as wide as 256 characters (therL > widest width set term/width supports).  Set your terminal width to 256, goM > into OPTIONS->DISPLAY and enable horizontal synch and the horizontal scrollb > bar.  A How many lines of code (in what language) is the terminal driver?s  > Is it a bug or feature that DCL relies on the terminal driver?  F Was there a reason not to have this in the terminal driver, or was it  just an oversight?  G I guess I could fire up NEWSRDR and get into the habit of typing SPAWN   before each command.  :-)r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 11:14:05 -05004/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)uM Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal widthh- Message-ID: <$eSLL6FpzQjR@cuebid.zko.dec.com>s  ; Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:-
 > Fred wrote:  >>  A >> The problem is that DCL relies on the terminal driver for this.H >> functionality, and nobody has wanted to try and tackle the multi-lineL >> editing problem in the terminal driver.  If DCL were doing it all itself,& >> then the task would be far simpler. >> dC > How many lines of code (in what language) is the terminal driver?a@ > Is it a bug or feature that DCL relies on the terminal driver?H > Was there a reason not to have this in the terminal driver, or was it  > just an oversight?  ?   TTDRIVER is built from a few modules written in Macro-32.  IteJ was a design decision that the command-line editing is done in the driver.? This decision was made, of course, back in the early 80's, whenM3 command-line editing came about in VAX/VMS (V4.0?).i  C The goal of the VAX-to-Alpha port was bug-for-bug compatibility; itmG is likely this will be the goal of the Alpha-to-Itanium port.  In otherlH words, while VMS Engineering agrees that the command-line editing scheme= should be re-worked, it is unlikely to get done, except as a o4 midnight (unfunded) project before the Itanium port.     --    M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:41:52 -0500o5 From: Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom>iM Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width / Message-ID: <3BEC0750.6C1952B6@compaq.com.doom>   C > How many lines of code (in what language) is the terminal driver?  >p  K     The bulk of the line editing code is in the module ttycharo.mar but notnO all of it.  I just look it is on the order of 4600 lines of some of the ugliestgF macro code you are going to find.  All of this logic happens at DEVICE IPL in kernel mode.g  I     While you are at it you need to make it work for VAX, Alpha, and withIJ an eye toward the future IPF.  Also you have to make sure that it does notF break Asian versions of VMS and their multi-byte support.  For fun andB extra bonus points you had better not break any funky undocumentedK quirks in the driver that users depend upon, or for that matter third partyn intercept drivers rely on.  H     Yup easy, if it were easy and simple with low system impact it wouldJ have been done a long time ago.  All you need is a simple editor.  To keepH the code reasonable and the performance acceptable a real minimal editor@ was added  into the terminal driver.  It was minimal on purpose.   >o@ > Is it a bug or feature that DCL relies on the terminal driver?  G     When it was done it was considered a feature.  Put it at the lowesteF level make it work at as low a cost as practical and everybody gets itI for free.  Put it anyplace else and now you can end up with many versionso of the code.   >sG > Was there a reason not to have this in the terminal driver, or was itm > just an oversight?  G     One reason was given above. Remember that VMS is record oriented so M things like DCL don't see any data until a terminator for the record is seen.yN Unix is just the opposite it is character oriented just like most editors.  So yourJ want to edit a command line fork off an editor let it edit the command and8 when it is done pipe it back to the shell for execution.  L     Different models and when the editing stuff was put into the O.S. it wasK placed the the most logical place for the most users to get it at the leastp cost.h  H     Lots have changed since then not the least of which is the resourcesC VMS has to do things.  Back when the editing was done there was onecH person who did nothing but terminal driver work.  Plus there were two orK three folks around who really knew the design of the code.  Now there is noaK developer that takes care of it full time.  If something breaks somone will ! hunt the problem down and fix it.f     Forrest Kenney OpenVMSp   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:08:45 +0100 (CET): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>M Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width-J Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0111091801140.13141-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  ) On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Phillip Helbig wrote:, [...] @ >+Is it a bug or feature that DCL relies on the terminal driver?    Feature. Definitely.e;  Have you anytime work thru WAN with really slow/overloadeds8 connection ? If yes - then you must know the differrence; between character oriented and record oriented "line edit". <  In the first you wait (b.ex. 2 seconds) for *any* character; sent, for the second all editing is done *liocally*[1], youn2 must "wait to see what happens" only line-by-line.5 [1] - suposing the terminal or local computer is ableI  doing "line edit". 8  *Today* the feature may not be a primary requirement :)  H >+Was there a reason not to have this in the terminal driver, or was it  >+just an oversight?    Full screen editing ??u;  Probably none of VT-series can edit "multiline", then hereo7 was no reason to control the feature in driver... IMHO.     Regards - Gotfryd   --  E =====================================================================nF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MES. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:38:48 -0800g' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> M Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width-+ Message-ID: <3BEC22B8.5B6215AF@caltech.edu>2   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > @ > The problem is that DCL relies on the terminal driver for thisG > functionality, and nobody has wanted to try and tackle the multi-lineiK > editing problem in the terminal driver.  If DCL were doing it all itself,w% > then the task would be far simpler.   F So send something zinging past the terminal driver so that DCL (or anyG program it chooses to invoke) can do it all. If  DCL would let you callzC up an editor and run what comes out of it then the problem would bet3 solved.  Effectively it would be the equivalent of:l  B $ edit commands.com  ! no line length problem if you use the right editorH $ @commands          ! DCL in general should accept longer command lines# too, but that's just a buffer thing  $ del commands.com;  ! clean uph  E All that's needed is a trigger to let DCL do this. Once you're in theuB editor an EXIT runs the line or lines in the editor buffer, a QUIT' (empty or no output file) does nothing.)  G You can pretty much do this now by wrapping the 3 lines above in a .com H and defining a command to run it.  Except that up arrow or recall # is a@ pain.  The recall case should be the easiest of all to fix, just add something like:y   $ recall/edit 10   The up arrow case is harder.  # $ (up/down arrow one or many times)n $ some very long command which wraps  and is therefore a pain in the butt  @ Now what?  You can't get up to the front of the line to put, for instance "ec" (edit command)B there - that's what started this whole thread.  You can pull a few# tricks to search through the recallvD buffer to find the number, but that's awkward. In this one case someF other workaround is required. The up/down arrows go through recall (orF are in some way linked to it) so all that's really needed is one otherE key that will pass through the terminal driver and into DCL.  For thel sake of argument, let that be ^E (edit) then you could do:5  # $ (up/down arrow one or many times)  $ ^E  % and this turns into the equivalent of    $ recall/edit 1d   and you're all set.h   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:41:47 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>f Subject: Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMSm8 Message-ID: <739nutc2cbdbjhsqfg0rss4fqnn0jnfsae@4ax.com>  @ On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:23:39 -0800, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  F >I use emacs 20.7.1 under W2K and I would have thought that that would- >have been a more difficult port than to VMS.u  C Not if it's built using cygwin (or even MS Posix) libraries. cygwin F gives you effectively a linux environment under Windows. Don't know if W2K EMACS uses it though.r     -- Alan   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:52:43 +0000 (UTC)9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>e Subject: Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMSn- Message-ID: <9sgg2b$o5k$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>u  M In comp.os.vms Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- <system@sendspamhere.org> wrote: 6 : In article <87zo5xxvma.fsf@leclerc.livingtorah.org>,* :	Charles Sebold <csebold@ezl.com> writes:, :>On 21 Cheshvan 5762, Stefan Monnier wrote: :>D :>> Has anybody worked on the VMS port of Emacs to get a more recentH :>> version than 19.28 working ?  Would anybody be interested in porting :>> Emacs-21 to VMS ?m  G : If it wasn't completely psycho-written shit code, you'd see a workingi : copy by now.G : It's not C that's the problem per se.  Can you say autoconfig?  BuiltsF : on C preprocessor dependancies that are little more than really uglyG : unix hackery.  Everytime I rekindle my effort on this project, littledD : time is lost before my blood boils.  Targets are built in the sameF : locations as the sources and, if a build fails, it can never be pro-F : perly restarted (and this is 19.28).  Also, It might have been nice G : if the Stallman crowd had merged the VMS mods of 19.28 into the laterhE : versions but, since VMS is not a unix, it might have tainted their l : precious unixy shit code.o  ' So you have not gotten 20.x to compile?t  @ I have compiled it (eventually), but got problems with the dump.G (Borrowing makefiles and other stuff from the most recent 19.28 on VMS.d  I think... it was some time ago)  
 -Roar Thronsl   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 17:22:17 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e Subject: Re: Emacs-2[01] on VMSh* Message-ID: <9sh3c9$sb$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <739nutc2cbdbjhsqfg0rss4fqnn0jnfsae@4ax.com>,(  Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:C |> On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:23:39 -0800, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>@	 |> wrote:. |> nI |> >I use emacs 20.7.1 under W2K and I would have thought that that wouldg0 |> >have been a more difficult port than to VMS. |> uF |> Not if it's built using cygwin (or even MS Posix) libraries. cygwinI |> gives you effectively a linux environment under Windows. Don't know if  |> W2K EMACS uses it though. |>  I And this brings up another (likely hair-brained) idea I have been kickingwE around lately.  Does anyone here remember "The Software Tools VirtualnI Operating System"?  What is the likelyhood that something like this couldeJ be revived and expanded as a way (at least temporarily) to get some of the. needed user level applications to run on VMS??  G When you look at the overall picture, the idea never flew in it's firstnI iteration for the same reason the P-machine concept withered on the vine. G The additional layer took too many resources and resulted in extremely fF slow (in most cases) execution.  Today, we have people happily runningG Virtual Machines (ala teh P-machine) and even entire hardware emulatorsI3 that run at many times the speed of the original.  s  C Is there anyone interested in discussing this??  Does anyone have ayF copy of any of the original work?? (There was a VAX VMS port running.)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:19:34 -0800o) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)i  Subject: Filesystem (disk) size?= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0111090819.69a5a255@posting.google.com>c   Hi,r  ? This might have been covered, however with the increase in diskeD size almost monthly (180GB units now!) it is a topic that constantly needs looked at.  C I'm playing with a HSZ22 (RA3000) config at work I want to put intog production, ie:e  E Device                  Device           Error    Volume         FreeeE $1$DKB1:       (TEACH)  Mounted              0    TEST      530707221v  H How would you go (have gone) about the initialization, cluster size etc?  F Just interested - this is probably an "experience" thing rather than aC RTFM thing. I tend to favour a large "chunk" of storage rather thansI smaller chunks (I know - longer to restore when totally cactus) - howeverd
 this is RAID.   B I'm wanting to make my system (ODS-2) disk around 16Gb on the same	 RA3000...   F $1$DKB0:       (TEACH)  Mounted              0  TEST1         33553773  J More information? - average .EDU users creating what ever files .EDU type K "average users" create. ($1$DKB1) will also be ODS-5 with a lot of Advancedh Server access through PCs.    G Cluster considerations - three other nodes - would like to SCSI clustersI one with disk intensive work, others ethernet with minimal disk intensive  work (one my workstation).  < Backups (are/will be) done to a TL891 Library (Single TZ89).  $ I am doing the right or wrong thing?   Many thanks.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 18:38:18 +0100 (MET)j9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t Subject: filk humour; Message-ID: <01KAIDEPI19C90UTW5@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   C After taking a look at http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/ something nD overcame me and I produced the verses below.  (Since I got a lot of E positive feedback from parodying Carl Lydick's signature a few years  6 ago, maybe I should have become a comedian after all.)  I ------------------------8<-----------------------------------------------r   Carly went down to Compaq   $ Tune: The Devil Went Down to Georgia (Charlie Daniels Band)       Carly went down to Compaq " She was looking for an OS to steal* She was in a behind because she was behind" And she was willing to make a deal   She came up on this guy Curly # Writing some memos to the employeest "Price, performance, quality:r How can I get rid of these?"   "I bet you didn't know itI But I'm a CEO too  I'll bet my profits from Linux% That I'm better at business than you"o   Mike said "My name's Curly And it might be a sin- But why should you be my enemy When you can be my friend?"r    
 Middle eight:<   Curly boot up your PCo And write those memos fine 180 days of bullshit Lay it all on the line   If you win you get zeroD To the power of ten@ But if you loseo Then Carly takes you ing     Chorus:    First we sold off what we couldD No matter if it was good  Then we killed off what was left" Who gives a damn if customers wept   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Nov 2001 12:00:35 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>-2 Subject: Re: Global Sections for IPC - performanceH Message-ID: <y4adxwb44s.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  , mark@*NO*SPAM*.co.uk (Mark Williams) writes:  ' > >Or did you mean to say SEC$M_PFNMAP?bD > I do use SEC$M_PAGFIL.  Would the other flag be better?  What real > difference does it make?  M They are totally different. PAGFIL says the section should use a page file as H backing store (isntead of a normal user file). PFNMAP says it should mapN directly to a set of physical pages - this is used, for instance, by SDA to beM able to "look" at kernel and other processes's memory with very low overhead.    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:38:18 GMTi3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)i; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!r, Message-ID: <9sg4lq$p9i@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  6 In article <20011108145149.29172.qmail@gacracker.org>,? Doc.Cypher  <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:-# >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----0 > # >All caps *is* defined as shouting.o >r  
    Uh huh....R   >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.2t >rA >iQEVAwUBO+m88sriC3SGiziTAQGNngf+Mee95vjxF2WauFtsdmXPSC3SlA2Vl9wNlA >+k5GgyMgr8JbzHPtWN9S2mgllPyel09ZfYVZfyumNHYrcLULyVvH9N6AcLlmBRYhoA >VKwDajzo12e5VYKi44AZC8PRPifo8VhP5fb3eQjpNVqS2xFSybthytfq7uBOkekXrA >nTTzGNM4/DWPx1fUGrtWQnQaVUBhefnkVTG9C++/O76z63Ud9B2jMMBALFhpBwlClA >vtJF9sNFxC/E7gbWCcGPzGnfGEXthg5VZKet15Z7XgPIYJ+P1L6czvfGe6J+mESuL9 >hcdvVinyQX9QTzx/FuXlihM8UTqqB9zJQxKPkFK4sA3fO7GhSWDDXA==i >=F6jb >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----  @   Could you keep the Begin/End PGP signature shouting down then?   -- Vance Haemmerleh vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 13:05:45 -0000 = From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>i; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!d6 Message-ID: <20011109130545.25541.qmail@gacracker.org>  C On 9 Nov 2001, vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) wrote:m7 >In article <20011108145149.29172.qmail@gacracker.org>,p@ >Doc.Cypher  <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:$ >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>$ >>All caps *is* defined as shouting. >> >  >   Uh huh....  : I was quoting the RFC, sorry if it offended your eyeballs.  A >  Could you keep the Begin/End PGP signature shouting down then?m  F Force of habit, and needed in other newsgroups where I participate. IfG there's a lot of people object I'll try to remember to leave it off for0 c.o.v.     Doc. -- 06 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.neti   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:33:06 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!u, Message-ID: <3BEBDB0E.E545A483@videotron.ca>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:oH > Force of habit, and needed in other newsgroups where I participate. IfI > there's a lot of people object I'll try to remember to leave it off forr > c.o.v.  B yEs PlEaSe, ThAt PgP sIgNaTuRe MaKeS mY eYeS gO fUnNy  :-) ;-) :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 14:01:46 -0000e= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> ; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger! 6 Message-ID: <20011109140146.26687.qmail@gacracker.org>  C On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  >"Doc.Cypher" wrote:I >> Force of habit, and needed in other newsgroups where I participate. IfeJ >> there's a lot of people object I'll try to remember to leave it off for	 >> c.o.v.a >iC >yEs PlEaSe, ThAt PgP sIgNaTuRe MaKeS mY eYeS gO fUnNy  :-) ;-) :-)   K JF, you should try writing to Q management like that. First thing the style?# made me think of was a RanSoM nOtE.d    8     PaY VmS MaRkeTinG FifTy MiLliON aNd wE qUit BitChiN'    & (The RFC did say use mixed case . . .)     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netr   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:37:48 -0800g( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!a= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090837.4c25c47e@posting.google.com>h  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<JdV9cfefXbPo@eisner.encompasserve.org>...N > In article <9se5ld$2fr$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:l > > In article <d7791aa1.0111080609.2e4eeaec@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: >   J > >>IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT, ITS OK BY ME ... I PREFER CAPS BUT SINCE OTHERJ > >>BRAIN DEAD PEOPLE COMPARE IT TO SHOUTING, I WILL TRY TO GO WITH THE PC1 > >>CROWD, BUT NEVER WILL I DUMP VMS FOR WINDOZE!o > > C > > Please just "talk" normally. Don't SHOUT and don't whisper.  :)  > J > Bob Ceculski is apparently quite new at this computer keyboard stuff, asI > he has not figured out the difference between "shift" and "shift lock".o  G look, which way do you want it?  i quit the caps and now you want them!-E i don't use the shift key ... it's caps lock or no caps lock ... justd" remember, real vms users use caps!   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 10:33:07 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)0; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!o3 Message-ID: <BrQEpDyniakV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <JdV9cfefXbPo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:r > J > Bob Ceculski is apparently quite new at this computer keyboard stuff, asI > he has not figured out the difference between "shift" and "shift lock".   C    Or he has an old ADM-3 where caps-lock is a dip switch under the     label plate on the keyboard.i   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:58:59 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!n= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090858.5a2e75c3@posting.google.com>a  { Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<20011108145149.29172.qmail@gacracker.org>...d$ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > : > On 8 Nov 2001, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote: >  > <snip> > I > >IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT, ITS OK BY ME ... I PREFER CAPS BUT SINCE OTHEREI > >BRAIN DEAD PEOPLE COMPARE IT TO SHOUTING, I WILL TRY TO GO WITH THE PCS0 > >CROWD, BUT NEVER WILL I DUMP VMS FOR WINDOZE! > $ > All caps *is* defined as shouting. > 7 > - From RFC 1855 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt)- >  > > >   - Use mixed case.  UPPER CASE LOOKS AS IF YOU'RE SHOUTING. >  > L > All we've seen from you is either all upper, or all lower. This just makesM > it look as if you can't use the shift key on your keyboard. Look at the RFCoJ > document, the style it is in is what the Internet Engineering Task ForceK > recommends. (The only "PC" about the posting style we'd like you to adopti* > is that it is "Politically Correct". ;-) > J > In addition, you could look for a news server to use rather than google.H > Google usually lags up to 6 hours behind a conventional newsfeed. ThisK > means that you can easily post something that is already under discussiond > in the newsgroup.e >  >  > Doc.  M this board is for vms users ... i am one ... and i have been very vocal about I the superioirity of vms both here and in trades like information week ...   5 http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20010701S0001c  N and the boston globe ... sounds like you want to silence the pro vms crowd ... who do you work for, ibm!a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 19:39:40 +0100i( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>; Subject: Re: Hewlett family votes "NO" on HP-Compaq merger!c- Message-ID: <VA.000004b2.44b8ba60@bluewin.ch>a  Q In article <d7791aa1.0111090837.4c25c47e@posting.google.com>, Bob Ceculski wrote:nj > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<JdV9cfefXbPo@eisner.encompasserve.org>...P > > In article <9se5ld$2fr$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:n > > > In article <d7791aa1.0111080609.2e4eeaec@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: > >  tL > > >>IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT, ITS OK BY ME ... I PREFER CAPS BUT SINCE OTHERL > > >>BRAIN DEAD PEOPLE COMPARE IT TO SHOUTING, I WILL TRY TO GO WITH THE PC3 > > >>CROWD, BUT NEVER WILL I DUMP VMS FOR WINDOZE!s > > > E > > > Please just "talk" normally. Don't SHOUT and don't whisper.  :)  > > L > > Bob Ceculski is apparently quite new at this computer keyboard stuff, asK > > he has not figured out the difference between "shift" and "shift lock".  > I > look, which way do you want it?  i quit the caps and now you want them!sG > i don't use the shift key ... it's caps lock or no caps lock ... just $ > remember, real vms users use caps! > < We are simply asking you use capitals in their proper place. Just like this.o  G In the same fashion as the OpenVMS manuals and online HELP are written.1  6 Learn to use the shift key as it was intended. Please.  . And while I'm on the subject of your postings:  B a) Please don't quote entire articles from online magazines at us.@ The URL and subject are normally sufficient. The Google time lag? Doc mentioned means those of us interested have likely read ther articles already.a  C b) If you find a product you feel we would appreciate you only needeE to mention it once; not repeatedly. We also need hard facts, not justn! a "Bob says it's great" to go on.h   ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:20:32 +0000=% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: HP/Compaq merger]8 Message-ID: <sbbnut4a58bgkmd9a5mip9hodauj03h1o0@4ax.com>  A On 8 Nov 2001 13:42:40 -0800, amalloy@techtarget.com (Amy) wrote:r  : >We have a poll going on the HP/Compaq merger on our site,C >searchHP.com, and 50% (103 votes) of the respondents say that they6D >think the deal is finished and so is Carly Fiorina, in light of theG >Hewlett and Packard heirs' disapproval of the merger. As Compaq users,bE >I'm curious if you agree with this. If you are interested in sharingcD >your opinion, you can do so at http://searchhp.techtarget.com/poll.  D You'd be better asking in comp.os.vms which has far more posters andE readers than comp.unix.tru64. So I've cross-posted it for you. If you * want to know our opinions just read c.o.v. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:02:28 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a Subject: Re: HP/Compaq mergerv, Message-ID: <3BEBB7B5.5067B557@videotron.ca>  L You know, I am not sure I really care about the merger. What I would like toL see is Winkler given the boot and Compaq told that it should drop its wintelS focus and leverage their VMS/Tru64/Alpha/Tandem businesses, including workstations.   N Perhaps there is better chance of that happening if Compaq is dropped and toldJ to reorganise by itself to survive. That might be a big enough slap in theK face and vote of non-confidence to instill REAL change. But I am not really-I convinced this would happen. It is more likely that the slap inb the facelB would tell Compaq to ficx its PC business to compete against Dell.  L I am still wondering if the PC business will eventually come to be dominated0 by Asians with US companies not able to compete.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 05:52:39 -0800>" From: amalloy@techtarget.com (Amy) Subject: Re: HP/Compaq mergerh= Message-ID: <dfbaf67b.0111090552.156240d5@posting.google.com>n  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<sbbnut4a58bgkmd9a5mip9hodauj03h1o0@4ax.com>...cC > On 8 Nov 2001 13:42:40 -0800, amalloy@techtarget.com (Amy) wrote:S > < > >We have a poll going on the HP/Compaq merger on our site,E > >searchHP.com, and 50% (103 votes) of the respondents say that theymF > >think the deal is finished and so is Carly Fiorina, in light of theI > >Hewlett and Packard heirs' disapproval of the merger. As Compaq users,lG > >I'm curious if you agree with this. If you are interested in sharinguF > >your opinion, you can do so at http://searchhp.techtarget.com/poll. > F > You'd be better asking in comp.os.vms which has far more posters andG > readers than comp.unix.tru64. So I've cross-posted it for you. If you , > want to know our opinions just read c.o.v.  P Thanks for doing that. I really appreciate it. I'll go read c.o.v. also. Thanks!   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:31:01 -0800h( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: HP/Compaq mergern= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090831.66e0e2cc@posting.google.com>A  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3BEBB7B5.5067B557@videotron.ca>...hN > You know, I am not sure I really care about the merger. What I would like toN > see is Winkler given the boot and Compaq told that it should drop its wintelU > focus and leverage their VMS/Tru64/Alpha/Tandem businesses, including workstations.  > P > Perhaps there is better chance of that happening if Compaq is dropped and toldL > to reorganise by itself to survive. That might be a big enough slap in theM > face and vote of non-confidence to instill REAL change. But I am not reallyBK > convinced this would happen. It is more likely that the slap inb the faceiD > would tell Compaq to ficx its PC business to compete against Dell. > N > I am still wondering if the PC business will eventually come to be dominated2 > by Asians with US companies not able to compete.   rich marcellas for ceo!o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:44:38 +0000s4 From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@baesystems.com>Y Subject: Re: I WILL QUIT USING VMS WHEN THE MILITARY DOES - IN 2015 OR MAYBE LONGER! LONG(- Message-ID: <3BEBDDC6.324ED12@baesystems.com>    Paul Repacholi wrote:  > ) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:a > C > > Exactly! In fact why not forward it to Capellas and Winkler for 2 > > comment? That's a serious question by the way. > B > `Cause you would then have to explain VMS to them. In words of 2
 > letters. >    Try -i   VMS = Very Many Saleso  0 The DoD say they have to support VMS until 2015.5 Do they wish to make more money by selling VMS for PCS6 or do they wish to send lots of cheques to Bill Gates? -- i7 _______________________________________________________ + Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UK  andrew.swallow@baesystems.come   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:36:03 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> I Subject: Re: Is TCP/IP really needed to install WEBES and Compaq Analyze?u2 Message-ID: <3CTG7.54208$Z2.830104@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  8 "Dale Dellutri" <ddellutr@enteract.com> wrote in message% news:9seu3v$aoq$1@bob.news.rcn.net...  >...E > Can you give me some details on why you think it's [Compaq Analyze]r garbage? >...  J I'm sure that more than a few people saw this question and said "No! Don't8 ask him that! He'll go off into one of his rants again."   $ SET RAND/MODE=CA  K I no longer have CA installed on any running system here, so all of this isaI from previous comp.os.vms postings and from e-mail exchanges with Compaq. I You may want to use www.deja.com (now known as Google Groups) to see what F others have said about CA. Sylvain Robitaille in particular has postedK several notes on problems using CA on TRU64, and we exchanged several notestK comparing the problems between the two platforms. If you really search deja E enough you will find one of the original programmers who worked on CAeK stating "I neither like nor am particularly good at writing algorithm-basedn0 classes," which he had to do for Compaq Analyze.  L The last version I tried was V4, (it was the current shipping version, not a0 beta) I do not know what the current version is.    L 1. It is a resource hog that is capable of bringing an ES40 to its knees CPUF wise. CA was great for demonstrating how a Galaxy can be configured toI migrate a CPU to the node that needed it most, but when we ran CA on both-K Galaxy nodes at the same time the CPU kept switching back and forth. CompaqrK tells me that this is not an issue since V4, I never got far enough into V4o to see for myself.  G 2. It makes no use of standard VMS techniques. This means that a syntaxAJ error on the command line that should be caught by the CLI takes 6 secondsF to process and spawns at least one sub-process. If you have accountingF turned on for sub-processes you will see that the process fails with a
 INCHAN error.d  	 $ ca/zerri@    Error During Command Parsing: Unrecognized CA command '/zerr' $ show symbol $statusy      $STATUS == "%X1000013A"- $ write sys$output "''f$message("%X1000013A")t(    %SYSTEM-E-IVCHAN, invalid I/O channel  L I do not know about you, but when I see IVCHAN in an accounting record, I goF looking for the programmer to tell him that his application is broken.  L Notice that the error format of FACILITY-SEVERITY-IDENTIFICATION-TEXT is not used by CA.9  F 3. After installing V4 I booted the system, I then used the ACCOUNTINGK utility to check on what the processes did during the boot. I noticed three-J entries that had "File Not Found" as the exit status. I never did find out what caused these errors.-  I 4. The RCM logs had "%DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity andGH spelling" errors in them, I never bothered to find out what caused this.  C 5. I had an unresolved problem with seeing sub-processes dying witheB "%SYSTEM-I-GSDFULL, global section descriptor table is full" in my accounting records.h  L 6. My first experience with CA V1 had me waste a lot of time trying to trackJ down an non-existing TRU64 node on the network. For some reason CA decidedH to read through the example database and presented me with an error fromJ node "sabl28," I spent a long time trying to track down this node before IK found out that this was an example error. Look for "sabl28" in deja for the-L details. Compaq tells me that this bug is fixed, but they could not offer me any proof about it.r  I 7. If you look at the various .COM files that get installed, you will seevL that some (most?? I do not recall how many now) had the template information still there. i.e.r   $! Facility:
 $! {~tbs~} $! $! Abstract:
 $! {~tbs~} $!
 $! Author:
 $! {~tbs~}  L There was one .COM that I found that was nothing but a template, i.e. it hadG places to put standard comments, but it did nothing. This tells me thataK there was no code review before this shipped, so I do not know what else is  hiding in the code.e  F 8. ... I had more, but I stopped looking at it when some senior peopleJ started viewing my comments on CA as more reasons to get rid of VMS. Now IL have to convince them that VMS itself is still a stable, quality product, it@ is just CA (and DSN V2... and MIME...) that are severely broken.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:50:49 GMTM From: nospammer <no@spammer.dk>a Subject: LIB$xxx$ Message-ID: <1103_1005303049@pcw190>   Folks,   A foolish question.5   Since we have LIB$FIND_FILE and LIB$DELETE_FILE and LIB$RENAME_FILE, I would like to know why there is no LIB$COPY_FILE ?  Since it is clear that the LIB$ routines \ intentionally provide access to basic file operations, it seems incomplete without the COPY.   Is there an explanation ?-  . I never thought about this before I needed it.   cheers philip   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:00:43 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: LIB$xxx, Message-ID: <3BEBD37A.20E54CCB@videotron.ca>   nospammer wrote:} > Since we have LIB$FIND_FILE and LIB$DELETE_FILE and LIB$RENAME_FILE, I would like to know why there is no LIB$COPY_FILE ?  >  L You could use  LIB$CONV$PASS_FILES( input_file, output_file) (fdl, exception file and flags omitted)A 			LIB$CONV$CONVERT();  U CONVERT can take 2 arguments, the first one is the address of an array of 5 longwordss 	number of statisticse 	number of files 	number of records 	number of exception recorsdsl 	number of valid records  F (the above is actually a variable length array since you could sepcify multiple input files)p  C This is documented in the Systems Routines /Utility routines manual 2 (the one that has the ACL, cli, conv etc routines)  : By the way, are any of these rotines available from HELP ?   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:07:18 -0600m- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)4 Subject: Re: LIB$xxx3 Message-ID: <TynSiSlhTgo3@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  F In article <1103_1005303049@pcw190>, nospammer <no@spammer.dk> writes:   > Since we have LIB$FIND_FILE and LIB$DELETE_FILE and LIB$RENAME_FILE, I would like to know why there is no LIB$COPY_FILE ?  Since it is clear that the LIB$ routines ^ > intentionally provide access to basic file operations, it seems incomplete without the COPY.  A FIND, RENAME and DELETE are basic file system operations directly " supported as a single call by RMS.  @ DCL Copy is a complex application program, as can be verified by0 anyone who has tried to write their own version.  ? DEQ could move it into the RTL, but the priority for doing thatf= seems low since most people just call the Convert library for  such purposes.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:19:25 -0500- From: "Rebecca Snyder" <rsnyder@atlasdie.com>. Subject: RE: LIB$xxx? Message-ID: <MPBBIEGNHCKJGNKPHFAPIEPOCMAA.rsnyder@atlasdie.com>    Philip,:  2 When we've had to copy files with in our programs,: we use LIB$DO_COMMAND ( command ) or LIB$SPAWN( command ).  > We just create a string that says "$ copy file1.txt file2.txt"= and pass it to the routine. It works very well for us becausep< we don't allow our users the $ prompt, so everything they do has to be done via a program.u   Rebecca Snyder Atlas Companies, Inc.r mailto:rsnyder@atlasdie.com    -----Original Message-----& From: nospammer [mailto:no@spammer.dk]' Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 5:51 AMa To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- Subject: LIB$xxx     Folks,   A foolish question.5  L Since we have LIB$FIND_FILE and LIB$DELETE_FILE and LIB$RENAME_FILE, I wouldH like to know why there is no LIB$COPY_FILE ?  Since it is clear that the
 LIB$ routineseJ intentionally provide access to basic file operations, it seems incomplete without the COPY.0   Is there an explanation ?.  . I never thought about this before I needed it.   cheers philip   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:03:44 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: RE: LIB$xxx0 Message-ID: <00A04C9F.0B66A234@SendSpamHere.ORG>  o In article <MPBBIEGNHCKJGNKPHFAPIEPOCMAA.rsnyder@atlasdie.com>, "Rebecca Snyder" <rsnyder@atlasdie.com> writes:5 >Philip, >.3 >When we've had to copy files with in our programs,a; >we use LIB$DO_COMMAND ( command ) or LIB$SPAWN( command ).e  G LIB$DO_COMMAND will not execute a command until the image is rundown.  lD The LIB$SPAWN would seem the better alternative should the program's< subsequent function(s) require the file to have been copied.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             tJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:27:52 +0100m- From: Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>t Subject: MMS & ODS5 3 Message-ID: <3BEBF5F8.38017391@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>.   Hi all,v  G  I just noticed that MMS fails on a ODS5 disk when the file is in loweri case:r  
 polka-jj) dir   B Directory $DISK5:[JOUKJ.PUBLIC.MESAGL.MESA_20011109.Mesa.src.TEST]  	 accum.c;2.   Total of 1 file. polka-jj) mms "accum.obj"oB %MMS-F-GWKNOPRN, There are no known sources for the current target	 ACCUM.OBJr  C Is there any way around or will there be soon a verion off MMS that> supports ODS5?                  Jouk"   ------------------------------   Date: 09 Nov 2001 15:07:53 GMT' From: "Jim Strehlow" <jims@data911.com>5 Subject: Re: MMS & ODS5 0 Message-ID: <9sgrg9$nrg@dispatch.concentric.net>  F The documentation within OpenVMS Guide to Extended File SpecificationsL http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6536/6536pro_001.html#hfs_managin g_ch   2.1.4 No Support for ODS-5C OpenVMS utilities and commands that do not support the ODS-5 volumecI structure cannot handle extended file names. These utilities and commandsEK should be used carefully on ODS-5 volumes because Compaq cannot ensure thatII they will function successfully even when they only encounter traditionalE file specifications.  - Jim Strehlow, Data911 OpenVMS Systems Manageri Alameda, CA     : "Jouk Jansen" <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message- news:3BEBF5F8.38017391@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl...e	 > Hi all,  >wI >  I just noticed that MMS fails on a ODS5 disk when the file is in loweri > case:s >d > polka-jj) dirm > D > Directory $DISK5:[JOUKJ.PUBLIC.MESAGL.MESA_20011109.Mesa.src.TEST] >  > accum.c;2e >v > Total of 1 file. > polka-jj) mms "accum.obj"uD > %MMS-F-GWKNOPRN, There are no known sources for the current target > ACCUM.OBJO >VE > Is there any way around or will there be soon a verion off MMS thata > supports ODS5? >e >                Joukn   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:19:40 -0600e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)j Subject: Re: MMS & ODS5n3 Message-ID: <A34Mkgp$aipf@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  c In article <3BEBF5F8.38017391@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>, Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> writes:p  I >  I just noticed that MMS fails on a ODS5 disk when the file is in lower  > case:t  E I think there are many other aspects of ODS-5 syntax that baffle MMS.n   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 17:15:12 GMT01 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 3 Subject: Need help, was: Re: Rob's British Champion5* Message-ID: <9sh2v0$sb$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  6 In article <tEBG7.17968$xS6.28911@www.newsranger.com>,J  Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> writes: |> aJ |> Rob, I would like to point out that at the last count, there were aboutG |> 60 million of us, and that we are not all clones of Andrew Harrison.s  J I'll assume you mean total Brits here and not British members of c.o.v :-) but anyway....  B Are any of our British members familiar with "Telecom Gold Mail"??D Is it still an existing service and if so, is there any interconnectD with INTERNET Email??  I am trying to locate an old friend I haven'tD seen in more than a decade and that is the email address on his last business card.  5 I know chances are slim, but it's worth a try anyway.0   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Nov 2001 11:42:39 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: OT - HP's MPE-IXiH Message-ID: <y4d72sb4yo.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:f  D > I seem to recall (from Usenet) that VMS Fortran has the ability to > read big-endian data.m  C All DEC^H^H^HCompaq^H^H^H^H^H^HIntel Fortran compilers can do this.C  2 > I presume the only reason it is Fortran-specific0 > is that those are the customers who wanted it.  J It is Fortran-specific because that is a language that uses typed records B for its I/O. Without these, it can't be done. C/C++ needn't apply.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:00:08 -06001- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)G Subject: Re: OT - HP's MPE-IX 3 Message-ID: <aIuMtIeFfuOf@eisner.encompasserve.org>a   In article <y4d72sb4yo.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:t > E >> I seem to recall (from Usenet) that VMS Fortran has the ability to  >> read big-endian data. > E > All DEC^H^H^HCompaq^H^H^H^H^H^HIntel Fortran compilers can do this.o > 3 >> I presume the only reason it is Fortran-specificn1 >> is that those are the customers who wanted it.h > L > It is Fortran-specific because that is a language that uses typed records D > for its I/O. Without these, it can't be done. C/C++ needn't apply.  / Shame on you for only considering C and C++ :-)u  I Ada, Cobol, Pascal and PL/I (in alphabetical order) all handle record IO.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:17:29 +00000( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>N Subject: Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking) Message-ID: <3BEBAD39.FF4DCBF1@127.0.0.1><   JF Mezei wrote:e >  > Simon Clubley wrote:; > > PS: Andrew seems to have been silent for a long time...t > O > Compaq is no longer a threat to Sun sales. With Compaq shooting itself in theeO > foot in a very visible way, Sun no longer needs to bother ponting to Compaq'sV > silly decisions.  D Don't worry it won't last for long, Sun has found a cul-de-sac whichD they'll hit the top of when the Itanium VMS systems start to deliver4 performance, and IBM start to peddle their Power5's.   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comm   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 07:56:27 -0600h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)cN Subject: Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking3 Message-ID: <PBOpDZf60OH0@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  T In article <3BEBAD39.FF4DCBF1@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:  F > Don't worry it won't last for long, Sun has found a cul-de-sac whichF > they'll hit the top of when the Itanium VMS systems start to deliver6 > performance, and IBM start to peddle their Power5's.  I Lagging performance has never seemed to be a barrier to Sun market share.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:40:10 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>oN Subject: Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking3 Message-ID: <CXRG7.1440$RL6.46794@news.cpqcorp.net>   L Hmmm.  Now that you mention it.  Andrew hasn't been heard from here in quite a while.  ( Not to look a gift horse in the mouth...      " Simon Clubley wrote in message ...) >On 7 Nov 2001 14:13:42 -0600, in article_: ><T2FM9+edvTNK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Rob Young wrote: >>; >> Ah.... excellent tactic not unlike our British Champion.- >> >-H >Rob, I would like to point out that at the last count, there were aboutE >60 million of us, and that we are not all clones of Andrew Harrison.d > I >Have you considered using "Sun Champion" instead of "British Champion" ?1 >n >Simon.  >l8 >PS: Andrew seems to have been silent for a long time... >e >--oA >Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPhL >In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered aF >truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 09:08:36 -0600n+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eN Subject: Re: Rob's British Champion, was: Re: Compaq: VMS is alive and kicking3 Message-ID: <8F4HwPjuvCdD@eisner.encompasserve.org>(  c In article <PBOpDZf60OH0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:aV > In article <3BEBAD39.FF4DCBF1@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > G >> Don't worry it won't last for long, Sun has found a cul-de-sac which G >> they'll hit the top of when the Itanium VMS systems start to delivert7 >> performance, and IBM start to peddle their Power5's.  > K > Lagging performance has never seemed to be a barrier to Sun market share.r    @ 	But it really is catching up to them.  Since Oracle charges per> 	cpu prices, servers such as IBM's new Regatta are cleaning up= 	as Regatta not only handily outperforms most (all?) but does > 	it with less than half the CPUs.  IBM sales job is quite easy= 	up against large Sun boxes.  Power4 is a monster.  Hope they & 	are quite busy at the Marvel Mansion.   				Robh   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:40:45 -0500i) From: Paul T. Karch <pkarch@stargate.net>V Subject: Test -- Ignore 8 Message-ID: <qn8outokmqevodk3m62bni2a7niao3j494@4ax.com>   This is a test+ There are two kinds of people in the world. / Those who believe there are two kinds of people  and those who don't.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:33:36 +0100h From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, Subject: Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP' Message-ID: <3BEB94E0.89A26970@home.nl>   W Yes, that would be very nice indeed. But there are a few problems. This is not simply a0@ file transfer, this would require a kind of RMS on both sides !.  V Why hasn't somebody thought of that yet ? Well they have, it is called OSI, also knownS to us as Decnet-Plus. You can even run it over IP !! And provided both sides of theIU connection use OSI, you can access files on both sides and all OS differences will bee% translated to each other (FTAM etc.).G  X The problem is that is is difficult to build, so everybody likes stoneage protocols like FTP.  V In case you haven't noticed, the computer industry is re-inventing the wheel time over again ........   Regards,   Dirk   JF Mezei wrote:e   > Just a suggestion: > H > Currently, one can use transparent DECnet for a program to access dataM > residing on another decnet node, with that data being a file or a stream ofLS > data supplied by some server program. To the application this is all transparent.  >eO > so, a program can open a file such as BIKE"clinton cigar"::"0=TWIST" and thengV > read records as they are being fed by the TWIST.COM residing in Clinton's directory. >eN > It would be *really neat* if RMS were modified to support sumilar operations > with TCPIP connections.o >I > for instance:tL > TCPIP::server.whitehouse.gov:23  would establish a tcpip connection to the< > named host and port number and one could read/write to it. > O > The nice advantage of using RMS is that RMS would have the smarts to assembleyL > records on your behalf (eg: take raw packets and assemble until a new line > character is received).i >rO > Right now, everyone needs to re-invent the wheel, writing his own routines totL > buffer incoming packets and feed newline terminated records to the calling< > application. And that sounds like the perfect job for RMS. > = > Another feature that would be nice would be support for FTPo > eg:oM > FTP"clinton cigar"::ftp.whitehouse.gov/oval_office/documents/missing_w.keyslL > would automatically open an FTP session that would either get (if open forE > read) the file, or write records to a file there if open for write.l >sL > Heck, why not also support HTTP requests and feed the response data to the* > application as if it were a local file ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:48:23 +0000@% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-, Subject: Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP8 Message-ID: <nb9nutss22loigj41tua3p2ed5prapansr@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:36:09 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n   > K >If the idea has merit, then perhaps a valued customer can bring this up too: >Compaq since they would have access to official channels.  B I put the question directly to Hoff at last year's DECUS "meet theE wizard" in London (not the later technical update sessions where Hoff D was also present). The reply was along the lines of "it is very muchD something I'd like to see"  But I believe he then said that it would@ involve quite a few changes to DCL and RMS code that hadn't been: touched for years and they would have to tread cautiously.  ' I hope I've got that about right. Hoff?N  M >And if Compaq staff do not have the ability to see some good suggestions and E >raise them themselves in their committees, then it is Compaq's loss.s   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:51:08 +0000m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c, Subject: Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP8 Message-ID: <qk9nutk4601iefvplkson8mht1g70fcbku@4ax.com>  C On Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:33:36 +0100, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote:s  X >Yes, that would be very nice indeed. But there are a few problems. This is not simply aA >file transfer, this would require a kind of RMS on both sides !.- >-W >Why hasn't somebody thought of that yet ? Well they have, it is called OSI, also knownlT >to us as Decnet-Plus. You can even run it over IP !! And provided both sides of theV >connection use OSI, you can access files on both sides and all OS differences will be& >translated to each other (FTAM etc.). >EY >The problem is that is is difficult to build, so everybody likes stoneage protocols like  >FTP.u >eW >In case you haven't noticed, the computer industry is re-inventing the wheel time overt >again ........   D Never mind full OSI. Maybe Compaq should just release DECNET over IP@ for Windows etc and promote it as *the* network file/application system.   ! Somehow I can't see it happening!d  	 >Regards,i >w >Dirko >  >JF Mezei wrote: >n >> Just a suggestion:o >>I >> Currently, one can use transparent DECnet for a program to access data N >> residing on another decnet node, with that data being a file or a stream ofT >> data supplied by some server program. To the application this is all transparent. >>P >> so, a program can open a file such as BIKE"clinton cigar"::"0=TWIST" and thenW >> read records as they are being fed by the TWIST.COM residing in Clinton's directory.A >>O >> It would be *really neat* if RMS were modified to support sumilar operations  >> with TCPIP connections. >> >> for instance:M >> TCPIP::server.whitehouse.gov:23  would establish a tcpip connection to theb= >> named host and port number and one could read/write to it.r >>P >> The nice advantage of using RMS is that RMS would have the smarts to assembleM >> records on your behalf (eg: take raw packets and assemble until a new line. >> character is received). >>P >> Right now, everyone needs to re-invent the wheel, writing his own routines toM >> buffer incoming packets and feed newline terminated records to the callingt= >> application. And that sounds like the perfect job for RMS.s >>> >> Another feature that would be nice would be support for FTP >> eg:N >> FTP"clinton cigar"::ftp.whitehouse.gov/oval_office/documents/missing_w.keysM >> would automatically open an FTP session that would either get (if open forMF >> read) the file, or write records to a file there if open for write. >>M >> Heck, why not also support HTTP requests and feed the response data to theP+ >> application as if it were a local file ?o   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:40:55 GMTo? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)a, Subject: Re: Transparent RMS access to TCPIP. Message-ID: <3bebc866.780281@news.demon.co.uk>  C I'm not Hoff (obviously), but I do remember working in the parts ofeD RMS that would be involved.  What's been described is actually quite@ doable.  The parts of RMS that would need to be touched are nameF parsing, sequential organization support (where the current switch outD to DAP support is housed), and new ftp and http sections.  Of these,+ only the naming portion is at all involved.e  > Do note that this would almost certainly have to be limited toD sequential only access, but that would suffice for a large number of uses.O  D On the DCL front, I'd have thought that the ODS-5 support would haveC covered most everything except the handling of forward slashes '/'.oE Even if not, DCL uses RMS file parsing services to work out what is a.< valid file name anyway.  I really don't see that being a big impediment.m  C I know I've been here before on other topics, but this really looksrE like a small number of man months of work.  I'm having trouble seeing ' what the technical concerns would be...    Jim.      C On Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:48:23 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>3 wrote:  - >On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 18:36:09 -0500, JF MezeiR& ><jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: >p >>L >>If the idea has merit, then perhaps a valued customer can bring this up to; >>Compaq since they would have access to official channels./ >6C >I put the question directly to Hoff at last year's DECUS "meet the F >wizard" in London (not the later technical update sessions where HoffE >was also present). The reply was along the lines of "it is very muchdE >something I'd like to see"  But I believe he then said that it would A >involve quite a few changes to DCL and RMS code that hadn't beent; >touched for years and they would have to tread cautiously.  >t( >I hope I've got that about right. Hoff? > N >>And if Compaq staff do not have the ability to see some good suggestions andF >>raise them themselves in their committees, then it is Compaq's loss. >s >--n >Alanl   Jim Johnson  Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)S   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:07:47 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>,& Subject: Undocumented FMS driver calls, Message-ID: <3BEBF138.746AA952@videotron.ca>  D has anyone gotten around to getting or writing documentation for the undocumented FMS driver calls ?-  L There are quite a few routines that return information about a form (such as FDV$RETFORM_INFO )  M I know that there is much access to the form and individual field informationsJ because ALL-IN-1 makes extensive use  of these undocumented functions (forN instance, you can get field position on the screen (column, line), and this is1 something which are not documented in the manual.   G Is there a way to find out how many arguments  a routine in a shareable- library expects ?-  G Is there a cookbook on how to reverse engineer a routine in a shareableB library ?  n  P Is the only way to run the VAX disassembler and try to figure out what it does ?  M I am looking at the feasability writing software that might convert FMS formsnH to something newer and weaning myself from ALLIN1 (which I use to access# indexed files mapped to FMS forms.)h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:08:10 +0900& From: "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net>+ Subject: Verify contents of the floppy disko+ Message-ID: <9sfuoq$2jf$1@news2.kornet.net>.  J I was able to mount the DOS floppy disk on an Apha machine running VMS 7.2J using the /foreign option.  The I was able to copy a file from an Alpha to this floppy.G But I can't verify what's on the floppy.  It kept saying something likedC "Device is mounted as foreign".  I don't know what's all that mean?c Here is what I did"   $mount/foreign dva0: test floppy   $copy myfile;1 floppy 
   $dir floppy-E This is where it gave me an error.  Does any one know how to do this?  Thanks   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 07:33:27 GMTe) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)i/ Subject: Re: Verify contents of the floppy diska' Message-ID: <9sg0s7$cgq$1@joe.rice.edu>   % David Lee (phongle@kornet.net) wrote:.L : I was able to mount the DOS floppy disk on an Apha machine running VMS 7.2L : using the /foreign option.  The I was able to copy a file from an Alpha to : this floppy.  $ "/foreign" does NOT mean DOS format.  I : But I can't verify what's on the floppy.  It kept saying something like^E : "Device is mounted as foreign".  I don't know what's all that mean?m : Here is what I did$ :   $mount/foreign dva0: test floppy :   $copy myfile;1 floppyi :   $dir floppyaG : This is where it gave me an error.  Does any one know how to do this?/ : Thanks  " See the OpenVMS FAQ, available at:  7   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html    and in the section titled:  <   UTIL2.  How do I access a MS-DOS floppy disk from OpenVMS?  $ check out MadGoat PCX, available at:  )   ftp://ftp.madgoat.com/madgoat/mgpcx.zip7  B You will need to install Madgoat PCX, to be able to read/write DOS compatible floppies.   --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:16:36 +0100 (CET): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>/ Subject: Re: Verify contents of the floppy disk^J Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0111091812330.13141-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  $ On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, David Lee wrote:  L >+I was able to mount the DOS floppy disk on an Apha machine running VMS 7.2L >+using the /foreign option.  The I was able to copy a file from an Alpha to >+this floppy.  .  As Jerry said - /FOREIGN doesn't mean "FAT" !1  It means: "treat whole drive as one flat file" !a:  Then regardless what was before on the floppy - after the( copy you have file saved block-by-block./  Regardless the mentioned in Jerrys post point:w@ - yes, you *can* copy it under DOS/Windows using some "diskcopy"< utilities (b.ex. DISKEDIT from NortonUtility) (of course one+  problem is with unknow size of the file !)   * >+But I can't verify what's on the floppy.  & $ DUMP DVA0: ! and read the contens ;)    Regards - Gotfryd   -- hE =====================================================================yF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEr. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:43:23 +0100a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>8 Subject: Re: VMS upgrade and SCSI disk firmware question' Message-ID: <3BEB972B.5E089B2D@home.nl>   D Don't know what the latest firmware number is, but AFAIK only CompaqM technicians can get firmware for SCSI disks. The firmware is not downloadableH0 to my knowledge, nor is a firmware load utility.   Regards,   Dirk  
 Joe wrote:  I > OK, cleaning up an inherited DEC 3000 running VMS 7.2-1, I noticed that J > there were several RZ26L disks on the system.  The release notes for VMSH > 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3 all seem to indicate that there is a minimum firmwareG > version recommended for these drives (0568 or 442D).  Which is newer?k >sK > I've got some with 440C, 442D, and some RZ28M's with 0568, 0616 and 4001.5 > 7 > Do higher version numbers imply more recent releases?u >cJ > The release notes explain how to get from 440C to 442D on the RZ26L, butJ > I don't see mention of updating the RZ28M's ... is this possible, is the( > firmware (image?) available somewhere? > C > Are there limitations on other digital/compaq SCSI disks' minimum 2 > firmware versions for different versions of VMS? >3: > Any help or additional information would be appreciated. > --> > joe schneider,   university of washington,  seattle, wa, usa6 > (To reply, please remove ".NoSpam" from my addresss)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:27:28 +0000e- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>H8 Subject: Re: VMS upgrade and SCSI disk firmware question1 Message-ID: <3BEBAF90.4A2EAEE5@BlueBubble.UK.Com>    Dirk Munk wrote:  F > Don't know what the latest firmware number is, but AFAIK only CompaqO > technicians can get firmware for SCSI disks. The firmware is not downloadableI2 > to my knowledge, nor is a firmware load utility.  F The firmware load utility is to be found in Sys$Etc:RZtools_Alpha.Exe.B The 442 firmware update for the RZ26L is also in Sys$Etc (at least in the system I'm looking at).  # Barbie: dire/dat/wid=fil=30 sys$etc   ) Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.UNSUPPORTED]d  F MKSET.EXE;1                          5/8       28-MAY-1999 23:43:39.42F MKSET.TXT;1                         11/12      22-NOV-1996 17:02:10.00F RF35_T392F_DEC_ALPHA.EXE;1         601/604      9-AUG-1993 11:29:07.00F RF36_V427P_DEC_ALPHA.EXE;1         604/604     16-MAR-1994 13:06:19.00F RF73_T392F_DEC_ALPHA.EXE;1         601/604      9-AUG-1993 11:45:37.00F RF74_V427P_DEC_ALPHA.EXE;1         604/604     16-MAR-1994 13:08:20.00F RF_VERS.EXE;1                       31/32      28-MAY-1999 23:31:42.46F RZ26L_442D_DEC.FUP;1               512/512     28-MAY-1999 18:20:27.30F RZ28P4_442C_DEC.FUP;1              512/512     28-MAY-1999 18:20:22.38F RZ28_442D_DEC2104.FUP;1            512/512     28-MAY-1999 18:20:32.68F RZTOOLS_ALPHA.EXE;1                153/156     28-MAY-1999 18:20:18.12F SCSI_INFO.EXE;1                     35/36      28-MAY-1999 23:43:30.10F SCSI_MODE.EXE;1                     99/100     28-MAY-1999 23:43:35.49  $ Total of 13 files, 4280/4296 blocks.  	 Roy Omonda Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Nov 2001 12:29:06 +0100G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>r* Subject: Re: VMS721_Mount96-v0300 QuestionH Message-ID: <y44ro4b2t9.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:n  F > PSDC has had a history of crashing systems when it restarts/starts.   L Then, given the role this product plays for a production system, the peddlerI of such wrotten goods should be keel-hauled and then forced to pay tripleiL damages for his sins. Such behaviour is completely unconscionable. "...has a history...", my foot!O   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:39:28 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: welcome.txt> Message-ID: <QMSG7.46619$zK1.12493931@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  L Thanks for the suggestions, but I woke up and realized the best solution was easy.o  J Part of the problem was that I couldn't fit both the security warning, andI the system specific informational message on the screen without scrolling L past some important information.   The easy solution was to put the security@ warning in  SYS$ANNOUNCE and the system informational message in9 SYS$WELCOME.  The security folks like this better anyway.   1 "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messagei8 news:QewG7.42800$zK1.10987738@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...K > I need to put a long message in welcome.txt and I need it to pause in thehH > middle (darn security people) to give the user time to read it. (press$ > return to continue sort of thing). >iL > Since this is just a text file and not a command procedure (even though it- > get invoked with an @),   how do I do this?d >t > Openvms VAX 7.1e > Openvms Alpha 7.2-1o >a >p >  >b >a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 12:07:42 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: welcome.txt$ Message-ID: <3bec0d55$1@news.si.com>  J >I need to put a long message in welcome.txt and I need it to pause in theG >middle (darn security people) to give the user time to read it. (presse# >return to continue sort of thing).   : Encompasserve does something similar.  Check it out there. eisner.encompasserve.org --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comtA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventr< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:22:21 -0800a( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0111090822.20db5fe6@posting.google.com>   i "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<ArAG7.151970$YL3.45338401@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>...MK > We, as users of OpenVMS, have to make our voices heard by the only peoplehK > who can help us - specifically the Boards of Directors of both Compaq andhD > HP, and other shareholders who will ultimately vote on the merger. >  > M > a)  write EACH member of both Boards of Directors personally and state thatsH > should OpenVMS be de-emphasized/de-supported, all my company's furtherI > computing purchases will definitely not be made from Compaq/HP. We willt- > endure the migration to IBM or Sun instead.R > M > b) Buy one share each of Compaq and HP stock in order to be able to standup.M > at the shareholder meetings which must take place to ratify the merger, andeH > again re-iterate that the merged company will forever lose my business- > should OpenVMS be terminated/de-emphasized.  > K > Further to this, it is in our best interests to make major pension funds,0N > who are the largest owners of stock in both Compaq and HP, aware that we areH > prepared to vote with our wallets on this matter. These are not stupidJ > people - many of the world's stock exchanges still run on OpenVMS, as doL > major portfolio management/accounting systems. The demise of Open VMS willN > affect them too, in tangible ways in their day-to-day business. And in theirI > fiduciary roles, they have to be made aware of the impact the demise ofsM > OpenVMS can have on the operations of the companies they buy securities of.tM > Yes, this is a bit of 'social engineering', but the more voices, and votes, N > we have denouncing any attempts to send OpenVMS into the shadows, the better > off we will collectively be.  M i have already sent numerous postings and emails to both carly and compaq ...n0 i have also encouraged others to do the same ...J i have also emailed paul allen hoping this merger will fail and asking him  to buy compaq or vms or both ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:31:15 -0500 0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>6 Subject: Re: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS; Message-ID: <091120011131152514%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>p  A In article <d7791aa1.0111090822.20db5fe6@posting.google.com>, Bob % Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:t  L > i have also emailed paul allen hoping this merger will fail and asking him" > to buy compaq or vms or both ...  ) Then I'd be working for my cable company.h   Paul   -- o  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS EngineeringC   Compaq Computer Corporationo   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:58:29 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>6 Subject: RE: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS- Message-ID: <0033000041120254000002L042*@MHS>    =0AMy first thought wase  F "Your print job will complete at some time between 8 and 5 on Tuesday,+ but we can't promise you an exact time...."e   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETr* > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:49 AMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET8 > Subject: RE: What Compaq & HP should be told about VMS >l >tC > In article <d7791aa1.0111090822.20db5fe6@posting.google.com>, Bob ' > Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:l >e? > > i have also emailed paul allen hoping this merger will failo > and asking him$ > > to buy compaq or vms or both ... >l+ > Then I'd be working for my cable company.( >o > Paul >> > -- >  Paul Anderson >   OpenVMS Engineering  >   Compaq Computer Corporationw >=   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 05:49:17 -0800a" From: amalloy@techtarget.com (Amy)3 Subject: What do you think of the HP/Compaq merger? = Message-ID: <dfbaf67b.0111090549.23927379@posting.google.com>e  D I'm the site editor for searchHP.com. We provide news, expert adviceD and technical information to HP users, but we are independent of HP.C SearchHP members have expressed a lot of concerns about the merger,h@ wondering what it will mean to their technology investments. I'dC really like to know what Compaq users think about the merger, and InD know that searchHP members would like to know too. If you would likeF to share your opinion, please post it in our HP/Compaq merger forum atg http://searchhp.discussions.techtarget.com/WebX?230@186.1HfhaObfbsZ^0@.ee8474f!viewtype=&skip=&expand=.  We'd love to hear from you.h Thanks,s
 Amy Malloy   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 08:03:46 -0600h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h7 Subject: Re: What do you think of the HP/Compaq merger? 3 Message-ID: <ZwpWD0MZ3TJo@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  b In article <dfbaf67b.0111090549.23927379@posting.google.com>, amalloy@techtarget.com (Amy) writes:F > I'm the site editor for searchHP.com. We provide news, expert adviceF > and technical information to HP users, but we are independent of HP.E > SearchHP members have expressed a lot of concerns about the merger,0B > wondering what it will mean to their technology investments. I'dE > really like to know what Compaq users think about the merger, and I F > know that searchHP members would like to know too. If you would likeH > to share your opinion, please post it in our HP/Compaq merger forum ati > http://searchhp.discussions.techtarget.com/WebX?230@186.1HfhaObfbsZ^0@.ee8474f!viewtype=&skip=&expand=.e > We'd love to hear from you.o  9 I think constituencies are not that readiliy transported.i= People who use newsgroups heavily prefer that medium, and aren9 unlikely to adopt some less-efficient web-based interfacen in large numbers.n   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Nov 2001 00:29:27 -0800 5 From: Hiroyuki_Tanaka4@excite.co.jp (Hiroyuki Tanaka)n" Subject: Re: [Help]Serial QIO Code< Message-ID: <68cfa44d.0111090029.5fe326e@posting.google.com>   Thanks echo was the cause.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.624 ************************