1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 17 Nov 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 639       Contents:% 4x8MB simms for AXP3000/300 available 5 Re: Anyone know of 100 MB NIC supported under VMS 7.1  Re: Clustering Textbook  Re: Clustering Textbook  RE: Clustering Textbook  Re: Clustering Textbook  Re: DEQ bonuses... Re: DEQ bonuses... Re: DEQ bonuses...D Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width' Free to a good home in UK Microvax 3400  FTP server for patches1 Re: I used to write code, but that's all over now ' Re: Is it a DEC C problem, or is it me? ( Re: Itanium flunking Compaq server tests% mc ncp tell bla sh exec (DEcnet-Plus) ) Re: mc ncp tell bla sh exec (DEcnet-Plus) P Re: OpenVMS Consortium NOW!!!! was (Re: usage of new products on vms axp) axp)ax Re: P/OS anyone?! Re: SCSI Questions for Alpha 2100 E Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org E Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org E Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org E Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org E Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org 0 Virtual Terminals and suppressing error messages4 Re: Virtual Terminals and suppressing error messages; Re: VMS is superior, but noone knows!  Stunning reading ... ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; RE: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! ; Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! % Re: Welcome To Microsoft's IT Academy - Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time? - Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time? - Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time? - Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time? - Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:00:40 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> . Subject: 4x8MB simms for AXP3000/300 available9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEHCDJAA.tom@kednos.com>   G Doing a little house cleaning and found these, if anybody is interested  send priv mail Tom    ------------------------------   Date: 17 Nov 2001 00:59:30 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) > Subject: Re: Anyone know of 100 MB NIC supported under VMS 7.1, Message-ID: <9t4cpi$cnv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  , In article <3BF358CA.4030501@tsoft-inc.com>,* David Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > I >The DE500 works as far back as 6.2 I believe.  I'd have to read the SPD  J >again to be sure.  It's a PCI card.  What type of system are you wanting - >to upgrade?  That's the first consideration.   I   That's true.  I had one running on a DPW 600au on 6.2.  It needed a LAN  ECO though.    ---  Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:19:06 -0500 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>   Subject: Re: Clustering Textbook( Message-ID: <3BF574AE.F10EA99C@ohio.edu>  Y By the way, Greg Pfister, author of "In Search of Clusters" does hang out on comp.arch if 3 you want to contact him, just lurk there for a bit.   #                                 RDP    --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:18:02 -0500 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>   Subject: Re: Clustering Textbook( Message-ID: <3BF5746F.3C9D9EBB@ohio.edu>  X I have read the second edition of "In Search of Clusters" and found it quite even-handedY and convincing.  There were perhaps a few subtleties of VMSclusters that had slipped past * him, but fundamentally it was quite sound.  V I especially enjoyed the story of the IBM helicopter -- I think it was for the Navy --Y the value of the avionics far exceeded that of the "self-mobile cabinetry" it was mounted / in, so it had an IBM part number for the whole.   #                                 RDP     & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  X > In article <3BF428B6.9B62F0A5@yahoo.com>, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > >  > >Bill Todd wrote:  > > : > >> James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote in message( > >> news:3BF3DD82.ED509647@yahoo.com.... > >> > This might be what you are looking for: > >> >< > >> > http://www.aplawrence.com/Books/searchofclusters.html > >> >Q > >> > I haven't read it, but I understand it concludes that the "shared nothing"  > >> > model/ > >> > is to be preferred.  (Not the VMS model)  > >>M > >> In later conversations with the author I think I managed to convince him M > >> differently.  IIRC, one driving force behind his conclusion had been the N > >> need for disaster-tolerance coupled with the immaturity of Fibre Channel,I > >> which meant that remote shared storage was less feasible than remote  > >> mirroring servers.  > >> > >> - bill  > > F > >Fascinating, did his changed views make it into the second edition? > >  > >Jim > >  > >  > E > Probably not.  Lord Gates would be displeased with him if he didn't ; > proselytize the virtues of the shared-nothing NT cluster.  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > K >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery K >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:37:30 -0500 ; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>   Subject: RE: Clustering TextbookK Message-ID: <D46FE9B132FB9B44AEC242A96E4AB75004BC5A4D@rlghncst625.usps.gov>   ; I have in my desk drawer a real IBM Field Service penlight.   H It's gray, has an IBM part number and the appropriate disposal warnings.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----0 From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ' Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:21 PM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET  Subject: RE: Clustering Textbook    L I have read the second edition of "In Search of Clusters" and found it quiteC even-handed and convincing.  There were perhaps a few subtleties of  VMSclusters @ that had slipped past him, but fundamentally it was quite sound.  J I especially enjoyed the story of the IBM helicopter -- I think it was for the G Navy -- the value of the avionics far exceeded that of the "self-mobile I cabinetry" it was mounted in, so it had an IBM part number for the whole.   #                                 RDP     & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  : > In article <3BF428B6.9B62F0A5@yahoo.com>, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com>  writes: > >  > >  > >Bill Todd wrote:  > > : > >> James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote in message( > >> news:3BF3DD82.ED509647@yahoo.com.... > >> > This might be what you are looking for: > >> >< > >> > http://www.aplawrence.com/Books/searchofclusters.html > >> >H > >> > I haven't read it, but I understand it concludes that the "shared nothing" > >> > model / > >> > is to be preferred.  (Not the VMS model)  > >>I > >> In later conversations with the author I think I managed to convince  him I > >> differently.  IIRC, one driving force behind his conclusion had been  the E > >> need for disaster-tolerance coupled with the immaturity of Fibre  Channel,I > >> which meant that remote shared storage was less feasible than remote  > >> mirroring servers.  > >> > >> - bill  > > F > >Fascinating, did his changed views make it into the second edition? > >  > >Jim > >  > >  > E > Probably not.  Lord Gates would be displeased with him if he didn't ; > proselytize the virtues of the shared-nothing NT cluster.  > --4 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >K >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery K >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:07:36 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Clustering Textbook, Message-ID: <3BF5D478.6000807@tsoft-inc.com>  L > I especially enjoyed the story of the IBM helicopter -- I think it was for > the I > Navy -- the value of the avionics far exceeded that of the "self-mobile K > cabinetry" it was mounted in, so it had an IBM part number for the whole.   B Typical.  Surely you don't think the cost of the airframes is the ? largest expenditure in modern military aircraft.  Take all the  < electronics out of an F-15 and it's not nearly as expensive.  F Now operations, that's another story.  I couldn't afford to start the  first engine.  :-(   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Nov 2001 22:09:28 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)  Subject: Re: DEQ bonuses... ' Message-ID: <9t42qo$che$1@joe.rice.edu>   = Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC) (John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com) wrote:  : In the news... : 8 : Executive Bonuses Included in the Hewlett-Compaq Deal  : > : Senior executives of Hewlett-Packard and Compaq will receive: : bonuses totaling more than $55 million if the companies'8 : merger succeeds and they stay on until September 2003.K : http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/16/technology/16HEWL.html?todaysheadlines    =     http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/076072.htm C     HP, Compaq CEOs reject $22 million in potential merger bonuses       (11/15/2001)  G    "SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Facing a potential shareholder revolt against G     the proposed marriage of their companies, Hewlett Packard Co. chief J     executive Carly Fiorina and Compaq Computer Corp. CEO Michael CapellasI     withdrew from a bonus program that would have paid them $22.4 million      for completing the merger.  J     Fiorina would have received $8 million, or two times her annual salaryH     and target bonus, upon completion of the deal, according to a mergerJ     prospectus filed Thursday with the Securities and Exchange Commission.I     Capellas would have been paid $14.4 million -- three times his annual      compensation package.   I     The documents didn't explain why the CEOs turned down the offers from G     their respective boards of directors. Both CEOs wanted to avoid the G     appearance of potential conflicts of interest, according to company      officials..."    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:27:23 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: DEQ bonuses... , Message-ID: <3BF5D91B.1060409@tsoft-inc.com>  $ Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:  s > In article <20011116163410.12290.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:  >  >>So, as you see...  >>$ >>"IT IS NOT A TECHNOLOGICAL MERGER" >> >>% >>It is just another mafia agreement.  >>4 >>Families Fiorina+Capellas (both italian surnames). >>	 >>Regards  >> >>FC=20  >> > L > Too bad Micro$oft has already locked up the garbage business or they'd be  > a shoe in. ;)   F Upon subsequent readings it isn't really all that much, but the first  reading had me ROTFLMAO.  :-)    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:24:55 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: DEQ bonuses... , Message-ID: <3BF5D887.1090109@tsoft-inc.com>   Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC) wrote:    > In the news... > 8 > Executive Bonuses Included in the Hewlett-Compaq Deal  > > > Senior executives of Hewlett-Packard and Compaq will receive: > bonuses totaling more than $55 million if the companies'8 > merger succeeds and they stay on until September 2003.  H And, these are the same people who we're hoping will put the customer's G best interests first?  Me thinks that we'll be getting the part of the  0 gold mine that's left after all the gold's gone.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:08:02 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> M Subject: Re: Editing DCL command lines longer than the current terminal width * Message-ID: <3BF5AA62.539F585A@virgin.net>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:   > I F > >Sometimes DEC targeted layered products at TOPS-10 and assumed that9 > >not supporting the additional TOPS-20 features was ok.  > B > Nope.  That's not how it happened.  Language development stopped$ > targeting TOPS-10 in the late 70s. >   L The compilers were fixed to generate native TOPS-20 monitor calls and handleI TOPS-20 file specs etc but it didn't extend all the way to providing easy  access to JSYS UUOs.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:19:26 -0000   From: "Rhys" <rhysl@rhysl.co.uk>0 Subject: Free to a good home in UK Microvax 3400. Message-ID: <9t43d9$ppa$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>   Hello,  H If anyone wants to come and pick up a Microvax 3400 from South Wales, UKE they are welcome to it. As far as I know it works, the display counts K through and ends up on 3 which I have been told is a healthy system waiting L to boot the OS. It has two disks in it, one is showing fault on the display,F but this could be to do with it not having an OS installed. There is aL console (which I think works) and keyboard with it, but I don't have the MMJD cable from the box to the console. There is also a TK70 drive in it.  L It would have to be picked up as I guess the shipping would be too expensive (its big and heavy).   Cheers   Rhys   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Nov 2001 15:01:45 -0800$ From: ewilts@mediaone.net (Ed wilts) Subject: FTP server for patches = Message-ID: <e12df3dd.0111161501.2188142d@posting.google.com>   B I saw an earlier thread on Compaq's ftp server being broken, but I< haven't seen anyone complain that they're not Y2K compliant.  A Sigh, Compaq's running a broken FTP server that can't handle MDTM F commands properly and returns years like 19100.  Trivial to duplicate,C but boy have I been having a hard time convincing anybody at Compaq " that their server should be fixed.  @ What's even amazing is that the fix for this was incorporated in Digital Unix 4.0D (so saysh http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/docs/base_doc/DOCUMENTATION/V40F_HTML/SUPPDOCS/Y2KPAPER.HTM#y2k-patches)$ which was released in December 1997!  D It sucks to pull down patches using a good FTP compliant and have it4 screw up all the dates because the server is busted.  C Talk about making a company look bad when they can't even get their E customer-accessed systems up to a rev that fixes problems encountered ; 23 months ago and fixed in their own product 4 years ago...   B I'll quit grumbling now, but perhaps one of you good VMS people at8 Compaq can tell the Unix folks how to manage systems :-)  	    .../Ed  mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:12:54 +0100M, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>: Subject: Re: I used to write code, but that's all over now& Message-ID: <3BF58156.6472A31A@gmx.ch>   Sue Skonetski wrote: > / > I used to write code, but that's all over nown >  > -- by the Coding Stonesd >  ../..    You've got a new position, Sue?h   D. -- sG   --------------------------------------------------------------------- E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlhE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670p/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.o  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:18:16 -0800e6 From: "Howard Taylor" <Howard.Taylor@pacificcoast.net>0 Subject: Re: Is it a DEC C problem, or is it me?  Message-ID: <3bf57981$1@nubby2.>   Hi;p  J We have a posix threads application that got an access violation in threadL code after we moved from OpenVMS 7.1 to OpenVMS 7.2-1. It was not clear whatG was causing the access violation, and it worked fine in debug mode. Our E worakround was to recompile using the "/debug/nooptimize" qualifiers.   
 Howard Taylor    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:43:23 GMTI  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>1 Subject: Re: Itanium flunking Compaq server tests + Message-ID: <3BF59694.B6635C04@prodigy.net>1   Rob Young wrote: >  <snip>  ButcF >         apparently it isn't that big a deal to Dell/HP/IBM.  PerhapsC >         their customers use the machines in such a way they would ( >         never be at "risk."  Unlikely. > % >                                 Robi  J They probably just say it's a Windows problem and everybody believes them.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:24:30 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>. Subject: mc ncp tell bla sh exec (DEcnet-Plus)& Message-ID: <3BF5840E.34602E07@gmx.ch>  	 Hi there,c	 I'm back.c  E If I do a "mc ncp tell bla sh exec" from VMS 7.2-1 / DEcnet-Plus to aJ+ Phase IV system, I get my answer (via NML).h  H If I do the same on myself or another DECnet-Plus system, I get an errorG message "could not connect to listener". I installed the network objectrE NML on my system, same behaviour. Then I had the idea (thank you Hoff B (again)) to have a look at the net$server.log and I found that theL listener was CML and that there was an "unsupported CMIP something" message.  I Did someone succeed to "mc ncp tell bla sh exec" to a DEcnet-Plus system? A (BLA is the Swiss-German for FRED (UK) FOOBAR (US) or TOTO (Fr)).I   Thanks,t   D. -- sG   --------------------------------------------------------------------- E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.html E Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670-/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.   I Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS Expertise:H On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:34:33 +0000m% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>s2 Subject: Re: mc ncp tell bla sh exec (DEcnet-Plus)' Message-ID: <3BF58669.F5133396@iee.org>=   Didier Morandi wrote:=J > If I do the same on myself or another DECnet-Plus system, I get an errorI > message "could not connect to listener". I installed the network objectcG > NML on my system, same behaviour. Then I had the idea (thank you Hoff   & The reasons for having an NCP emulator& at all was to allow existing products  which depended on NCP behavioure  (to perform simple configuration$ of objects and the like) to continue  to ship without having to change over to Phase V immediately.  - The emulator never did much more than that - i+ if you look at the information in SHOW EXECM$ it comes from all over the place (in Phase V terms).y  * So since the NCP emulator does not do what+ you want locally, it is not too surprising w  that it will not do it remotely.  ' On top of that, it is quite perverse tom+ try and manage a remote Phase V system froma$ a Phase V system but insist on using a Phase IV tool :-)    Antonio    --     ---------------r- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org9   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:16:48 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS Consortium NOW!!!! was (Re: usage of new products on vms axp) axp)ax>& Message-ID: <3BF58240.1A60A19B@gmx.ch>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  ../..n > # > Should begin at www.openvms.org !>   or http://www.vmsinstal.com ?    D. -- iG   ---------------------------------------------------------------------fE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmleE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670e/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.   I Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseeH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:24:47 GMT ' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>c Subject: Re: P/OS anyone? 0 Message-ID: <3BF5A01F.522FD1E6@bellatlantic.net>   bob,2 there was a set of pro docs on ftp.update.uu.se...8 that had the diag codes and stuff if I recall correctly.? Yeah, I think you are correct on the suggestion to reseat, and )> check cables BUT if you are running an old RD51 or 52, they do" seem to fail after 10 or 15 years.  = If you need diag codes, give me a shout and I will see what I  can dig  out on a snowy day!!= bob=   Bob Koehler wrote: > K >    My recently aquired Pro 350 won't boot.  It comes to a graphics screen D >    showing a highlighted floppy with a question mark under it, andM >    highlights the first two CTi boards (hard drive and floppy controllers).-J >    The numeric diagnostic codes seem to match the hard drive controller. > G >    I asume this means there's no OS on the hard drive (P/OS 3.2 or sooH >    could boot from the hard drive IIRC).  Anybody know where I can get: >    a copy of P/OS?  I'd rather mess with that than UNIX. > I >    I found a note on Eisner that P/OS 3.2 was in the DECUS library, butr; >    friends tell me the library is not workable right now.X > H >    I tried reseating everything and swapping in a different (but still >    empty) floppy drive., > B >    Kudos to the fellow who did the mechanical design of the CTI.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:56:38 GMT " From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>* Subject: Re: SCSI Questions for Alpha 21009 Message-ID: <Xns915B83AB63C32falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>i  0 GSV00001 <GSV00001@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu> wrote in news:4975627@MVB.SAIC.COM: h  H > I have a VAX system that has an external scsi dual 8mm tape drive box.F > The box has the 50 pin centronics connectors.  I also have been told@ > that this system is going to be retired way much sooner than IE > expected. Like next week!  Computer services wants to make room forF > more Sun systems!  > H > I need to connect this drive box to an Alpha 2100 system.  My concernsG > are with the 2100's scsi card.  I have no idea what kind it is except:G > that it has an external HD50 connector.  The devices I currently have H > on this system: DKA0, DKA100, DKA200, DKA300, DKA600, DVA0 and MKA500.8 > Four disk drives, one tape drive and one floppy drive. > E > Will this scsi card support more devices?  If not, can I remove the.E > internal tape drive (TZK11) and still be able to use the other tapeoH > drives?  I don't use MKA500 so it's no problem in removing it.  I haveE > a 50HD-50CN cable and I should be able to use the terminator that'stD > already on the drive box.  The 2100 is using VMS 7.1 which is also > on the VAX system. > G > Will this work or do I need to do something else?  I have very little>G > expericence in working with scsi devices so I need all the help I canc > get.  TIA,   L Probably it will work.  However, if by "dual" you mean "two drives with two J SCSI ID's", you will need to disconnect one drive.  The obvious candidate K being MKA500.  You are currently using 0,1,2,3,5,6, 7.  (7 being the host.)MJ My old 2100 5/250 had a wide SCSI-2 controller built in.  If yours is the K same that won't help much because the 8mm drives will be narrow and unable   to use the 8-15 ID's.   K If the 8mm drives are really old, i.e. 8200's, they won't work on SCSI-2.  dH Come to think of it, if you're running VMS 7.1 on the VAX they can't be 9 8200's, because VMS 6.? and later doesn't support 8200's.k  L The other thing to worry about is cable length.  Keep the external cable to E the tape drives as short as possible.  Strictly speaking, you're not eM supposed to mix external and internal connections.  However, I got away with .J it when I had a 2100.  Cable too long results in mildly erratic behaviour M through to complete failure.  SCSI-2 max length is 3 m (SCSI-1 max is 6 m).  eA Internal Storageworks backplane counts for longer than you think.i  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca m@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roadp1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadat http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:44:19 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>N Subject: Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org, Message-ID: <3BF5CF03.8030009@tsoft-inc.com>   Trent Worthington wrote:  H > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 07:26:21 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >  > 5 >>David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message(( >>news:3BF477A2.3060203@tsoft-inc.com... >> >>.... >> >>& >>>This is getting enormously amusing. >>>p, >>Try not to get the drool on your keyboard. >> > G > Not everyone has the problems you experience in every-day life, Bill.oG > Consider spending your weeks allowance on the purchase of a drool-cupp4 > if it helps your situation with a sloppy keyboard.    I Actually, I kind of liked that remark.  My only problem with it was that tD I really don't want any problems with the LK411 I use.  They're not H exactly common these days since the peecee revolution and quest for the D lowest cost everything has new keyboards well on their way to being 5 equated with TTYs.  Oh, that's another thread, sorry.      >>>q: >>>Let's see, an entity can be "an expression of approval,K >>>support,solidarity of intent, even of pre-attack encouragement", but notmI >>>be guilty.  So, why is Terry Nichols in jail?  Placed there by a courta
 >>>of law. >>> - >>Because he *helped*.  There's a difference.r >> > F > Bin Laden planned, and had his merry band of fuckheads carry out hisH > reprehensible mission. Why are you such a bin Laden/Taliban apologist? >  > B >>>And an entity can have "intent to engage in similar post-attackE >>>activity", but should be left alone until it actually does attack?d >>>dN >>A different question which is irrelevant to the issue (the one we're talking< >>about - duh) of whether he's guilty for the attack itself.    E Only if you still want to drag him into a court of law.  Me, I'm for  I shoot on sight.  No, I'll take that back.  Much too quick.  I'll have to DH think of something very slow.  The head of a terrorist network deserves G no less, regardless of any particular action.  I'm sure there are many bF things that have fallen out of his actions that make him deserving of C such.  Why should we waste any time trying to sort things out.  My hH feeling, Bin Laden out of action will make this a better world.  Reason  enough.     D > Already answered, yet you conveniently don't wish to face the fact) > that he admitted he was behind attacks.h >  >  > > >>This isn't rocket science, folks:  it's elementary analysis. >> > & > Indeed. He admitted his involvement. >  >  >> Try to doN >>better next time, if you can manage to think at some level above your balls.    7 Hmmmm...................   ...........    .............v  E You know, while I've gotten to an age where I normally think at some  E level other than my balls, my memories seem to indicate that there's 0I nothing inherently wrong with that level.  What's the problem, it wasn't   so good for you?  E However, at all levels, I'm convinced that terrorists are everyone's e< enemies, and we should eradicate all of them, at all levels.      H > There there, no need to cry. You've just met someone much smarter thanF > you - again. If you want to associate with people at your level, whyC > not try the patients at the severe head injury unit at your local  > hospital?' >  >   I Please try to be a bit less personal in your attacks.  Bill's actually a tE fairly bright and thoughtful guy.  He does suffer from living in New .F England, where someone must have done something quite bad a long time H ago, and all the locals are still having trouble getting over the guilt E trip, and always feel that they're to blame for all the world's woes.R   Dave   -- ,4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:59:54 -0500C( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>N Subject: Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org, Message-ID: <3BF5D2AA.2090800@tsoft-inc.com>   Brian Tillman wrote:  D  >> If the USA continues to refuse to reveal its evidence because itD  >> is so secret/national security, then that evidence is moot since<  >> it won't be presented in a court of law and without hard  >> evidence, they will have to-  >>-  > set  >  >> Bin Laden free.r  >>   >@  > If he gets tried, it will be in a military court where secretA  > evidence can be presented and yet not made know to the generale
  > public.  D Another brilliant idea, (I'm just full of them).  Let the Israilies D kidnap him from us.  I'm sure that they will know how to handle the 5 founder and head of an international terrorist group.I  E Ok, try to convince me that the founder and head of an international dD terrorist group even deserves the courtesy of a trial.  Show me the ; trial that condemned all the victums on September 11, 2001.w   Dave   -- r4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:16:57 -05005( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>N Subject: Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org, Message-ID: <3BF5D6A9.9050005@tsoft-inc.com>   Doc.Cypher wrote:v  B > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Trent Worthington <fuckoff@none.nul> wrote: > H >>On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:19:00 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> >>wrote: >> >>[...]l >> >>K >>>Knuckle-draggers don't consider such differences significant, of course.h >>>iH >>Bill, perhaps you should stick to something you know, like how to makeH >>bongs out of tennis ball cans, or angel dust out of dutch cleanser, orB >>how to lurk in stair wells to catch a few up-skirt-beaver-shots.H >>In the mean time, pull that ring finger out of your ass, sniff it, and7 >>type out something else for the audience to laugh at.  >> > K > Here Troll, have some peanuts 0o0 0o0 0o0 I hope you're allergic to them.. >  >  > Doc. >   I Please learn just a bit of elegance.  You're just helping Bill's (wrong) m
 arguments.   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:27:10 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>N Subject: Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org? Message-ID: <OymJ7.13903$2w.685071@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>s  3 David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagei& news:3BF5CF03.8030009@tsoft-inc.com...   ...m  D > >>>And an entity can have "intent to engage in similar post-attackG > >>>activity", but should be left alone until it actually does attack?o > >>>2H > >>A different question which is irrelevant to the issue (the one we're talking0> > >>about - duh) of whether he's guilty for the attack itself. >  >nF > Only if you still want to drag him into a court of law.  Me, I'm forJ > shoot on sight.  No, I'll take that back.  Much too quick.  I'll have toI > think of something very slow.  The head of a terrorist network deserves H > no less, regardless of any particular action.  I'm sure there are manyG > things that have fallen out of his actions that make him deserving of D > such.  Why should we waste any time trying to sort things out.  MyI > feeling, Bin Laden out of action will make this a better world.  Reason 	 > enough.    Try to listen this time, Dave.  L The subject under discussion here is *not* what Bin Laden may *deserve*, butK the very specific question of whether the material cited as an admission of L guilt for the Sept. 11th attack indeed constitutes an admission of guilt forE the Sept. 11th attack when carefully parsed (independent of any other4B evidence that may exist, or any other things he may be guilty of).  L Please keep re-reading the above sentence (which is just an expansion of theK same observation you responded to above without understanding it) until thevC distinction between what's being said and what you thought you were I responding to is clear to you.  Then reflect on how many other points youA= may have misunderstood in your excessive zeal for 'some ass'.i   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 06:59:16 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>N Subject: Re: Special IPF-Inside Issue of Shannon Knows Compaq at www.tru64.org+ Message-ID: <3BF60B53.CE34B074@cumulus.com>    Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > GreyCloud wrote: >  > >iI > > It isn't what is advanced but more politically damaging that makes itt > > highly classified. > J > you mean, it might contradict the constitutional rights of USA citizens? > Something like that? >    You can surmise that... yes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:08:01 -0700t) From: "DigiDemon" <digidemon@hotmail.com>e9 Subject: Virtual Terminals and suppressing error messagesr9 Message-ID: <20011116.140757.1987231011.4015@hotmail.com>    Hey all!    I Just 2 quick questions...anyway to enable virutal terminals with OpenVMS? H  Also, I was wondering if there's a way to suppress error messages...forA example during a copy operation...any way to kill these?  Thanks!i   Jameso   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:01:55 +0100y2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)= Subject: Re: Virtual Terminals and suppressing error messagest; Message-ID: <3bf5fd53.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>h  ( DigiDemon (digidemon@hotmail.com) wrote:2 > anyway to enable virutal terminals with OpenVMS?  G See the System Manager's Manual at www.openvms.comapq.com/doc/ (look inh# the index for "virtual terminals").k  J >  Also, I was wondering if there's a way to suppress error messages...forC > example during a copy operation...any way to kill these?  Thanks!   %  $ savemsg = F$ENVIRONMENT("MESSAGE")s@  $ SET MESSAGE /NoFACILITY /NoSEVERITY /NoIDENTIFICATION /NoTEXT  $ ON ERROR THEN GOTO erra  ...  $err:3  $ SET MESSAGE 'savemsg'  ! restore original format    cu,w   Martin --  G So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmere4 for all the books...       | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ ;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.dev   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Nov 2001 15:33:39 -0800' From: jbecker@ui.urban.org (Jim Becker) D Subject: Re: VMS is superior, but noone knows!  Stunning reading ...= Message-ID: <c113b52c.0111161533.67f1deb8@posting.google.com>   i "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<9t1bs1$ol5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...v [snip]K > My experience of those with MCSEs is that they are inflexible. They can't  > think out of the MCSE box... > = > It's been fun sometimes watching MCSEs (I have no formal NTvF > qualiications whatsoever) do something that you know from experienceJ > (the best teacher!) won't work, after you've told them it won't work and > they insist that it will...s  ? Speaking as both an MCSE holder and a longtime VMS kinda guy...   E My experience with many MCSEs is that they tend to have the followingy	 problems:y? - They've learned only the Microsoft textbook answers, suitable > primarily for normal conditions or textbook environments. TheyB illustrate the important difference between knowing the answer and understanding the answer.aC - In some cases, all they've really demonstrated is successful exam-B preparation, as opposed to successful acquisition of knowledge and skills.iD - They mostly came to NT from "below" (desktop environments) insteadB of from "above" (data center environments). As a result, many dataF center ideas and expectations are alien to them. Even some NT featuresF are alien enough where they fail to grasp how to use them effectively.E - In some cases, having an MCSE has given them an over-inflated sensee" of their own level of achievement.  oG > Of course, no disrespect intended to those of you with MCSEs that canlF > think 'out of the box' - probably because you used to work on a nice
 > flexible  > operating system like VMS ;-)  [snip]  F Thanks for not painting ALL MCSEs with the same brush. I've found thatB VMS people tend to have little difficulty learning NT concepts (asF observed when giving OJT and during the "Windows NT for OpenVMS SystemF Managers" seminar I used to give at CETS/DECUS). OTOH, I've found thatE people without a data center background often have trouble picking upm" on NT's non-desktop-like features.  D And I'm not anti-certification. There are self-styled NT experts whoD scoff at certification, but I find that they sometimes have big gapsB or even errors in their NT knowledge. At least if someone has beenA through certification, you know they've been exposed to a certaine range of knowledge.e    --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/),' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/)g. ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Nov 2001 13:15:26 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!3 Message-ID: <vfZTQMR1l64w@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  V In article <3BF5608B.3020302@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: > Bob Ceculski wrote:tG >> If IBM bought Compaq they could use either alpha or power or a combo0> >> to run VMS and rule the high end ... linux is not high end! >> > > I > The problem would be with compilers.  We don't have a Power target for eC > GEM and with most of the compiler folks heading off to Intel, it eH > wouldn't likely happen.  So unless IBM has a BLISS and MACRO compiler + > lying around that generates Power code...   B But IBM must have a compiler backend for Power already, and people: who maintain it.  Yes, it would take work, and cost money.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:05:55 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!, Message-ID: <3BF5719F.7243AB87@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > But IBM must have a compiler backend for Power already, and people< > who maintain it.  Yes, it would take work, and cost money.  M One advantage for IBM though would the the intangible benefit of knowing thateE neither HP nor Compaq would have the ability to elevate themselves to J "enterprise" level anymore. This would ensure that IBM remains the king ofJ enterprise computing with only Sun as competitor. HP would be relegated to selling wintel crap.  J On the other hand, with the statements made by HP and Compaq, IBM need notK lift a finger to ensure that HP and Compaq kill their own enterprise stuff .G relegating themselves to wintel stuff while IBM and Sun will battle for- enterprise computing.i   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Nov 2001 21:16:26 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)5D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!, Message-ID: <9t3vna$3085$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ) In article <3BF5608B.3020302@compaq.com>,c-  John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:  |> Bob Ceculski wrote:I |> > If IBM bought Compaq they could use either alpha or power or a combow@ |> > to run VMS and rule the high end ... linux is not high end! |> > t |>  J |> The problem would be with compilers.  We don't have a Power target for D |> GEM and with most of the compiler folks heading off to Intel, it I |> wouldn't likely happen.  So unless IBM has a BLISS and MACRO compiler v, |> lying around that generates Power code... |>  ? And you think perhaps IBM has no compiler talent of their own??s  C I may be wrong, but I think IBM getting what's left of Compaq would B be a good thing.  A lot better than what is likely to happen to it if the HP merger goes through.   bill   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:41:15 -0800a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>nD Subject: RE: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEHGDJAA.tom@kednos.com>i  H I haven't really followed this thread, but I don't believe that Power PCG architecture supports backwards addressing (also know as little Endian) I but more importantly is there some substance to this subject matter or isI it mere subjunctive ramblings.   Tomh   > -----Original Message-----: > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]) > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:16 PMr > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComvF > Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end! >n >s+ > In article <3BF5608B.3020302@compaq.com>,C/ >  John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:i > |> Bob Ceculski wrote:K > |> > If IBM bought Compaq they could use either alpha or power or a combo B > |> > to run VMS and rule the high end ... linux is not high end! > |> > > |>K > |> The problem would be with compilers.  We don't have a Power target forDE > |> GEM and with most of the compiler folks heading off to Intel, itzJ > |> wouldn't likely happen.  So unless IBM has a BLISS and MACRO compiler. > |> lying around that generates Power code... > |> >rA > And you think perhaps IBM has no compiler talent of their own??e >aE > I may be wrong, but I think IBM getting what's left of Compaq would-D > be a good thing.  A lot better than what is likely to happen to it  > if the HP merger goes through. >u > bill >m > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:36:01 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!, Message-ID: <3BF5DB21.8010402@tsoft-inc.com>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:t  - > At 10:42 AM 11/16/2001, Bob Ceculski wrote:h > G >> If IBM bought Compaq they could use either alpha or power or a combol> >> to run VMS and rule the high end ... linux is not high end! >  > + > ..and pigs could be taught to fly <grin>.a > H > Do you REALLY think they would give up their flagship midrange system 	 > (OS400)tB > in favor of VMS?  Remember, IBM originally marketed that as the  > "VAX-Killer".  > M > IBM buying CPQ would be about the worst scenario from VMS's standpoint thati > could occur.  D There's been some conjecture that IBM knows how to promote multiple H operating systems, letting the customer decide what they want, and then G make money servicing the customer.  I'd think that if IBM acquired VMS OF in order to offer it to customers, that that's what they'd do.  After D all, the current VMS customer base is still a significant amount of C services revenue.  That is a business IBM knows.  But, this is all   hope/conjecture.  C Do you have any specific information that would indicate otherwise?D  I If it wouldn't be for the enterprise assets, why would IBM be interested sI in Compaq?  Surely they've learned their lesson about low end PCs by now.a   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:44:11 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!* Message-ID: <3BF5DD0B.10001@tsoft-inc.com>   John Eisenschmidt wrote:  G  > Alpha is already gone. IBM won't be doing anything with that - whichT'  >  is fine, Power is a great platform.e  > That's not a given.  It would depend upon the perdeived futureF capabilities of Alpha.  Note that IBM had their own architechures, andE still adder another, POWER.  Multiple CPUs don't seem to bother them.t  G  > As for a VMS port to Power - you're more likely to see a discount oniA  >  IBM services to migrate to one of their other offerings. They ?  > already have two non-Unix OSes, why would they want a third?a  I One answer, to make even more money.  They're making as much as they can  I on what they have.  Having another money maker would be a good thing for m IBM.  E And they'd be no more successful with the 'M' word that anyone else.  E There will definitely be a shoot the messenger mentality when anyone tH tells VMS users that they must move on.  IBM doesn't need Compaq to woo > VMS users, and having Compaq would actually be a disadvantage.   Dave   -- g4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:17:52 GMTB* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>D Subject: Re: VMS on IBM power chip would make IBM No. 1 in high end!: Message-ID: <4qmJ7.8027$4m.652146@news2.aus1.giganews.com>  , Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEHGDJAA.tom@kednos.com...tJ > I haven't really followed this thread, but I don't believe that Power PCI > architecture supports backwards addressing (also know as little Endian)   L I'm reasonably sure that NT ran little-endian on PPC back when NT on PPC was
 a product.  K > but more importantly is there some substance to this subject matter or ise  > it mere subjunctive ramblings.  I IIRC the original posting said it was a Yahoo investor group rumor, and I G certainly haven't seen anything solider since.  But in the $7 - $10 per.K share range Compaq might start looking tempting to just about *anyone* in a C good position to capitalize on its assets (tangible and otherwise).o   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:12:13 -08005* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>. Subject: Re: Welcome To Microsoft's IT Academy? Message-ID: <SZhJ7.180819$Lg.8701990@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com>   6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:9t03g4$ime$1@joe.rice.edu...r5 > Microsoft understands how to breed loyal minions...- >-I And how many VMS old-timers used a PDP or VAX in college?  I used a PDP-8dJ for a short while, tho it was mostly CDC 6000s (kinda doesn't say much forJ "infiltrate the school" strategy).  Looking at the local community collegeK course catalog the classes are now MS and Autocad HowTos instead of conceptCL courses (seems Linear Programming is a lost art).  Thirty years ago I took aJ 360 BAL programming course at the same community college (and never used aJ 360/370 again).  It was as much a concepts of machine language as a codingG class.  I guess that's a master's or Ph.D (in archaeology?) level class 	 nowadays.   H MS has the right idea and I hope their program is a success.  Perhaps itG will grow into real classes on the internals and concepts behind NT forM advanced students.    Jack Peacock    ------------------------------   Date: 16 Nov 2001 19:13:43 GMT* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)6 Subject: Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?) Message-ID: <9t3oh7$vvv$1@hecate.umd.edu>o  W In article <3bf53b97$1@baja.bluevine.net>, "Marc Chametzky" <marc@bluevine.net> writes:dK >> and did a SUBMIT/CPUTIME=0:0:5 .  It indeed stopped (without sending anyo >mail K >> message, btw, but that's another story), after about *12* seconds of cpu  >time! >e. >Take a look at the EXTRACPU system parameter.  N Thanks, Marc, that's the answer.  My EXTRACPU is set to 10000 (10 secs), which0 explains it exactly (with a little wiggle room).  L Now, I have another question, closely related.  First, my purpose.  I have aL batch job that may possibly go into an infinite loop once in a blue moon andK the condition not be detected.  We're thinking of using a cpu time limit totM control this.  We want to know if this ever happens, though, so we'd like thes> job to detect when it exceeds the cpu limit and send an email.  M I just did another short test.  I ran a Fortran program that has a deliberatecC infinite loop.  The program is run from with LOOP.COM, shown below:-   $ set output=0:0:1% $ set proc/priv=(noall,tmpmbx,netmbx)m $ on warning then goto email
 $ run loop $ exit 1 $email:a* $ mail/noself/subj="loop" sys$input system
 infinite loopE $ exit 1  O This kills the user program after ~5 secs then sends me an email, as it should.wN My original test procedure, however, without any user program, does not do so.  L Theory: DCL is running in super mode, so when the cputime is exceeded, it isM given 10 more secsc in super mode.  It has its own super error handler, which-O dismisses or ignores the CPUTIME error condition.  The branch to label email isdE never taken, it uses up the rest of the EXTRACPU time (10 secs), thenr terminates.e  N Does anyone know if there is a way to catch the cputime being exceeded by DCL?I Most of my procedure's work (see above purpose) is done at DCL, and if myIO send-email-when-cputime-exceeded code is to be at alleffective it has to caatcha< when DCL exceeds the limit, not just when user code does so.   Thanks for the ideas.-   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edu:   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:33:02 +0100 (MET)99 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a6 Subject: Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?; Message-ID: <01KAS98C7N8U90YLDV@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>c  H > Does anyone know if there is a way to catch the cputime being exceededI > by DCL? Most of my procedure's work (see above purpose) is done at DCL, J > and if my send-email-when-cputime-exceeded code is to be at alleffectiveF > it has to caatch when DCL exceeds the limit, not just when user code > does so. o  D You might want to put in a bit more effort for a (potentially) much I larger reward:  Run a "watchdog" batch job which reports on and possibly  F takes action on other batch jobs.  You can easily get information you H might like to monitor about other processes, could flag which processes H to watch, what properties of them should be watched, what action should  be taken when etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Nov 2001 14:02:07 -0800' From: jbecker@ui.urban.org (Jim Becker)k6 Subject: Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?= Message-ID: <c113b52c.0111161402.43242ae9@posting.google.com>o  [ bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) wrote in message news:<9t1d7l$c5u$1@hecate.umd.edu>...sO > I was demonstrating to a user the effect of SUBMIT/CPUTIME.  I wrote a simplet > command procedure: > ( > $ set proc/priv=(nopriv,tmpmbx,netmbx) > $ on error then goto email > $loop:
 > $ goto loopn	 > $email:v, > $ mail/noself/subj="loop" sys$input system > infinite loopx
 > $ exit 1 > O > and did a SUBMIT/CPUTIME=0:0:5 .  It indeed stopped (without sending any mailsP > message, btw, but that's another story), after about *12* seconds of cpu time!M > I tried it again, and this time it terminated after 15 seconds cpu time.  I Q > checked the accounting records, which is how I know.  (The log file didn't haverB > any logout info at the bottom, but again, that's another issue.) > N > Does anyone have an idea why a process would continue for a whole lot longer > than the specified cputime?r  E Keep in mind that reaching the CPU time limit doesn't really mean thesF process ends at that moment. It really means it's time for the process" to wrap things up (exit handlers).  . Take a look at the following SYSGEN parameter:   EXTRACPU  E      EXTRACPU sets the time, in units of 10 milliseconds, allotted to C      each of a process's exit handlers (for each access mode) afterfA      the process times out (that is, reaches its CPU time limit).i  /      EXTRACPU is a DYNAMIC attribute parameter.   < The default value is 1000. In units of 10 milliseconds (i.e.A centiseconds), that's an 10 extra CPU seconds per access mode fort wrapping things up.l   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/)n' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/).. ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 22:46:42 GMT * From: "Marc Chametzky" <marc@bluevine.net>6 Subject: Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?* Message-ID: <3bf59651$1@baja.bluevine.net>  K > Theory: DCL is running in super mode, so when the cputime is exceeded, it' is$ > given 10 more secsc in super mode.  K Actually, I think the issue may be that you're not running an image at all.vK You're really "running" DCL.EXE, but that's not an image loaded into P0 andn' I don't think you can $FORCEX DCL.. :-)   L So, the $FORCEX gets completely lost. You then go to EXTRACPU time, and when7 that's up, you get a $DELPRC and the process goes away..   --Marc   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:17:18 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)6 Subject: Re: Why doesn't CPUTIME stop process in time?= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0111162017.6be1ec11@posting.google.com>g  [ bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) wrote in message news:<9t1d7l$c5u$1@hecate.umd.edu>...mO > I was demonstrating to a user the effect of SUBMIT/CPUTIME.  I wrote a simple> > command procedure: > ( > $ set proc/priv=(nopriv,tmpmbx,netmbx) > $ on error then goto email > $loop:
 > $ goto loopt	 > $email: , > $ mail/noself/subj="loop" sys$input system > infinite loop 
 > $ exit 1 > O > and did a SUBMIT/CPUTIME=0:0:5 .  It indeed stopped (without sending any maillP > message, btw, but that's another story), after about *12* seconds of cpu time!M > I tried it again, and this time it terminated after 15 seconds cpu time.  IrQ > checked the accounting records, which is how I know.  (The log file didn't have B > any logout info at the bottom, but again, that's another issue.) > N > Does anyone have an idea why a process would continue for a whole lot longer > than the specified cputime?g  E WARNING! This is only a guess (you asked for an idea, not necessarilyr the correct answer (!) ):   A I think it's because you are not running an image (other than theeC command interpreter). I would surmise that what's hapenning is thathF upon expiration of the CPU limit, the system tries to kill the job viaD a delete_process AST routine in user mode, then supervisor mode, andC then executive mode. I believe there is a 5 second interval betweencD each mode. And perhaps your job doesn't die until the executive mode AST is delivered.n  A I tried your script (I had to change nopriv to noall) and it tooknD about 15 CPU-seconds to run. I tried it again with a 60-second limitB and it ran for 70 seconds. That is consistent with the two extra 5! second invervals mentioned above.i  . I tried another script containing the command   %     $ DIRECTORY SYS$SYSDEVICE:[*...] l  # and it finished with the following:c  < XDPS$DPSCLIENTSHR.EXE;2                 XDPS$DPSLIBSHR.EXE;2; XDPS$MASTERDPSVM.DAT;1                  XFDEF.FOR;1        B
 XNL$SHR.EXE;2c* %SYSTEM-F-EXCPUTIM, CPU time limit expired8   SYSTEM       job terminated at 17-NOV-2001 00:38:32.94  C   Accounting information: F   Buffered I/O count:             694         Peak working set size:     516nF   Direct I/O count:               695         Peak page file size:      3156aF   Page faults:                    597         Mounted volumes:             0tA   Charged CPU time:           0 00:00:05.12   Elapsed time:     0  00:00:13.58p  D Apparently, when an image is running (well, this image at least), it) appears to be killed very nearly on time.i  F When you first got 12 CPU-seconds, I suspect that the machine was busyD and the cpu clock ticked "slower" for your process than the "elapsed clock".t  F I am basing this in part on problems I had in 1996 with VMS 5.4-1 when> I ran a batch job (called RUN_JOBS.COM) containing SYNCHRONIZE? commands to control the flow of other batch jobs. (See log file F below.) I had a SET NOON at the beginning because I wanted the jobs to> run seperately but not dependent upon successful completion ofF previous jobs. I was very surprised when I killed the control job onlyF to find that it continued on for another 5 seconds and thereby startedD the next job! Fortunately it was only a test. This has been fixed in> VMS 6.2. The release notes for VMS 6.2 (Subsubsection 4.1.1.1)B describe the sequence of different mode delete_process commands asC described above. So, I think that's what might be happening. Here's  the RUN_JOBS example:b   Example log file:-   $!+ RUN_JOBS.COM  0- $! $   SET NOON $! $   SET ENTRY/RELEASE 177s $   SYNCHRONIZE/ENTRY=177 - %JBC-F-JOBABORT, job aborted during executionS $! $   SET ENTRY/RELEASE 94 $   SYNCHRONIZE/ENTRY=94  $ (I aborted RUN_JOBS, not entry 177.)  F Since the purpose of the cpu time limit is to prevent users from usingE way too much CPU time, I don't find the occasional extra grace periodhF of 5 to 10 CPU-seconds to be a problem. I certainly wouldn't write any& code that depended upon the CPU limit.  D At the time of my RUN_JOBS post, others said that first a SYS$FORCEXE is issued, followed by a SYS$DELPRC system service. So I thought thataD there was a 5 second interval between the two. But much later I readC the VMS 6.2 Release Notes explanation, so perhaps that's similar toc the CPU time limit scenario.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmant afeldman&gfigroup.com    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.639 ************************