1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 507       Contents: Re: Any news from DECUS? Re: Any news from DECUS? Re: Ben Rosen the real culprit?  Re: Compaq strikes back  Re: Compaq strikes back  Re: Compaq strikes back  Re: Compaq strikes back  Re: Compaq strikes back  Re: emacs for the alpha/vms ! Re: Full printer support at last? ! Re: Full printer support at last?  Re: Future Of VMS ?  Re: Future Of VMS ? 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange ( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? Re: MicroVAX II - Test #3 (8)  Re: More VMS Wish List Items...  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center H Pink P.U.S.S.Y!! Join our F~R~E~E pre-teen site of pu55y!! 80.242.92.162- Re: Request: News and Updates from CETS 2001?  Re: RIP Bill Gates, Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.3 Re: Where can I get a micro-Vax with vms in the UK?  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 20:26:45 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) ! Subject: Re: Any news from DECUS? 3 Message-ID: <8dfeaGvJNDVw@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <KUNlfdVJ5tN3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: C > One Compaq speaker said that of 200 semiconductor workers offered 6 > jobs at Intel in the initial batch, only 1 declined.  I A high school buddy of mine is one of the Alpha EV8 designers. I waited a L polite couple weeks after the Alpha announcement last June, then sent him anF email. His response was that they were al caught off guard, and didn't) really have time to make any other plans.   G He cartainly didn't sound very thrilled at the prospect, and did wonder I where Alpha would be today if it had all the resources it deserved behind  it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:53:50 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ! Subject: Re: Any news from DECUS? ' Message-ID: <3B9EC02E.DCFAFFEC@fsi.net>    Bob Kaplow wrote:  > e > In article <KUNlfdVJ5tN3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: E > > One Compaq speaker said that of 200 semiconductor workers offered 8 > > jobs at Intel in the initial batch, only 1 declined. > K > A high school buddy of mine is one of the Alpha EV8 designers. I waited a N > polite couple weeks after the Alpha announcement last June, then sent him anH > email. His response was that they were al caught off guard, and didn't+ > really have time to make any other plans.  > I > He cartainly didn't sound very thrilled at the prospect, and did wonder K > where Alpha would be today if it had all the resources it deserved behind  > it.   E Probably well on the way to unseating IA32 as the platform of choice.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 20:53:07 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) ( Subject: Re: Ben Rosen the real culprit?3 Message-ID: <ZkxsukSBlSur@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <u4lrptk2ikvcct6etosv33q1gtvkt9rg2p@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:E > Perhaps the mistake we made was in not addressing communications to E > Compaq founder Ben Rosen. According to the Wall Street Journal he's @ > the real driver behind all of this which is probably why CurlyF > mentioned that he had talked this over with Ben Rosen in his memo toE > staff. If so he's been made to carry the can. In any case Curly and D > Rosey seem to be contradicting each other. Rosey also told the WSJE > that this deal would go through come what may. Anyone know off-hand % > what percentage of shares he holds?     I If it's significant, it's listed in the annual report, or in SEC filings.    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2001 18:08:24 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)   Subject: Re: Compaq strikes back, Message-ID: <9nljuo$206r$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  J Hmmm.  I wonder what Compaq would give me for a stack of Sparcstation-1's,9 and a couple of SparcServers thrown in for good measure??    :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:43:23 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>  Subject: Re: Compaq strikes back8 Message-ID: <h1qspt01ae7q69fqraacgmljq5p6em06v2@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:30:01 GMT, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote:   >Ed Wensell III wrote: >>   ><snip> J >> What I'd like to know is what Sun/Compaq/et al do with the competiitiveF >> tradeins. Sun can recycle Sun hardware, but what happens to all the; >> Compaq stuff they get and vice versa? Ebay/uBid perhaps?  >>   ><snip>  > # >my guess would be metal extraction   @ Don't assume we find no use for competitors products.  Maybe notE production, but testing would make sense - but it could help us build 4 a better knowledge base on our competitors products.  = I don't know if our engineers do this, mind you.  But it is a  possibility.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:30:10 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: Compaq strikes back& Message-ID: <3B9EBAA2.9F59825@fsi.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > L > Hmmm.  I wonder what Compaq would give me for a stack of Sparcstation-1's,; > and a couple of SparcServers thrown in for good measure??   H I've got a match ... (we'll butane lighter that I use for the BBQ grill, anyway)    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:55:53 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: Compaq strikes back' Message-ID: <3B9EC0A9.FEE46F7E@fsi.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > L > Hmmm.  I wonder what Compaq would give me for a stack of Sparcstation-1's,; > and a couple of SparcServers thrown in for good measure??    Try this again...   G I've got a match ... (well butane lighter that I use for the BBQ grill,  anyway)   C Sorry - this WTC stuff really knocked me off center in a major way. 4 First time that's happened since Challenger blew up.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2001 21:55 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)   Subject: Re: Compaq strikes back- Message-ID: <11SEP200121553569@gerg.tamu.edu>   . cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes... }Ed Wensell III wrote: }>   }<snip> J }> What I'd like to know is what Sun/Compaq/et al do with the competiitiveF }> tradeins. Sun can recycle Sun hardware, but what happens to all the; }> Compaq stuff they get and vice versa? Ebay/uBid perhaps?  }>   }<snip>  } # }my guess would be metal extraction   F Perhpas they send them to their marketing people so that they can takeD pictures of them and put them on the boxes for their produts instead! of pictures of their own systems.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:18:51 GMT 0 From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>$ Subject: Re: emacs for the alpha/vms+ Message-ID: <3B9E9BD7.83BDDB38@mailbag.com>    Douglas Nichols wrote: > N > Does anyone know where we/I can get a copy of emacs for the alpha machine? IG > am quite fedup with the tpu editor, not that it is bad mind you. Just 
 > preference.  >  > thanks > dnD I have a similar preference - but need a vax executable. I've been a. unixer too long to comprehend Eve I suppose...   William  --  * You better watch out    What you wish for;+ It better be worth it   So much to die for. -                                 Courtney Love    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:20:37 -0400 0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>* Subject: Re: Full printer support at last?; Message-ID: <110920011420372084%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>   9 In article <3B997697.4BFC0A65@fsi.net>, David J. Dachtera  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  I > My DCPS wish list would, of necessity, have to include extensibility so G > that support for new models would be as simple as adding a parameters H > file, a set of text library modules, possibly updating an SLI, or some > combination thereof.  F We understand the advantages of this approach, but it is a bit of workB to accomplish given DCPS's current internal hard-coding of printer@ information.  Such a project is not on the drawing boards but is certainly possible.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Compaq Computer Corporation    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:24:51 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> * Subject: Re: Full printer support at last?' Message-ID: <3B9EB963.447B7233@fsi.net>    Paul Anderson wrote: > ; > In article <3B997697.4BFC0A65@fsi.net>, David J. Dachtera   > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > K > > My DCPS wish list would, of necessity, have to include extensibility so I > > that support for new models would be as simple as adding a parameters J > > file, a set of text library modules, possibly updating an SLI, or some > > combination thereof. > H > We understand the advantages of this approach, but it is a bit of workD > to accomplish given DCPS's current internal hard-coding of printerB > information.  Such a project is not on the drawing boards but is > certainly possible.   ; No reflection on you, Paul, you're doing a wonderful job...   F ...I just hope that DCPS doesn't apply the typical philosophy of, "Oh,H we'll get a round tuit, but by then no one will care - so in the end, we can avoid it".   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:28:33 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Future Of VMS ?* Message-ID: <3B9E57D1.B4D53D2B@virgin.net>   "P. Thompson" wrote:   >    > MPE is being ported. >   A To be truly native like the VMS port? Not what I've heard but I'm F prepared to be pleasantly surprised. Still waiting for someone to postF an HP reference to an actual native port. AFAIK it was considered that@ the PA-RISC emulation mode would be fine which doesn't signal an indefinite life of MPE to me.   B But, as I've said previously, I haven't followed HP that closely - yet.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:52:40 GMT 0 From: "P. Thompson" <thompson-nospam@new.rr.com> Subject: Re: Future Of VMS ?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0109111351070.3694-100000@malacandra.localnet>   H I think you're right; an emulation mode.  I guess my main point was that; MPE was going to be running on that platform my some means.   & On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Alan Greig wrote:   >  >  > "P. Thompson" wrote: >  > >  >  > > MPE is being ported. > >  > C > To be truly native like the VMS port? Not what I've heard but I'm H > prepared to be pleasantly surprised. Still waiting for someone to postH > an HP reference to an actual native port. AFAIK it was considered thatB > the PA-RISC emulation mode would be fine which doesn't signal an > indefinite life of MPE to me.  > D > But, as I've said previously, I haven't followed HP that closely - > yet. >  > -- > Alan Greig >  >  >    --  * Leave the nospam in, correct email address   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:32:44 -0400 * From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)) Message-ID: <3B9E82FC.6050809@compaq.com>    Alan Greig wrote:   G > port on time (if allowed) and I believe them. It would have helped if E > Compaq hadn't just sold all of its compilers teams (including BLISS G > technology) to Intel as they must work closely on any porting project  > but that's a done deal now.   G Well, not all the compiler folks and technology have ended up (or will   end up) at Intel.     G > Porting from Alpha to IA64 shouldn't require anything like the effort E > needed for the VAX to Alpha port.  You might be amused to know that G > much of VMS is still written in Macro-32 which then is cross-compiled  > to Alpha and soon IA64..  G Well, technically it isn't 'cross-compiled'.  It is natively compiled.  F The AMACRO compiler runs on an OpenVMS Alpha system, reading Macro-32 G source code (plus some extensions), and generates OpenVMS Alpha object  G files.  A 'cross-compiler' (at least to me) runs on a different system   than it generates code for.   H The moving of Macro-32 code from OpenVMS Alpha to IA64 should be easier H in some regards (you already had to decorate your code with .CALL_ENTRY G and .JSB_ENTRY directives for instance when moving from VAX to Alpha),  E but harder in other ways.  How much Macro-32 code writes into R0 for  B instance? (and for those you haven't read their IA64 architecture I guides, R0 is a readonly register fixed as 0 much like R31 on the Alpha).    --   John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:11:48 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit* Message-ID: <3B9E53E3.AD455D65@virgin.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  I > Statements in Anaheim are that under SEC rules he could _not_.  The two J > companies must continue to compete.  A Tandem speaker was even unwilling >   E If that's the case just what exactly can the pre-merger team do then?     J > to speculate that HP would want to preserve the Tandem product line.  HeI > put up a slide quoting some industry analyst who attributed 1.6 billion G > dollars of annual revenue to Tandem.  Then the speaker mentioned that F > HP had no fault tolerant products of its own.  But that is as far as5 > he would go, according to him because of SEC rules.    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:23:15 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit8 Message-ID: <hrospt46no43mcfnr32rlvb9oh000l4u96@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:15:50 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:  E >On 10 Sep 2001 15:52:08 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  >wrote:  >  > F >>	But he obviously can't speak of anything but Compaq plans.  When/if? >>	he moves into his designated role at HP , one of two things:u >0F >At the announcement conference I'm fairly sure Carly and Curly statedG >that the merger team including Blackmore would start work immediately.rG >Blackmore chose to write the memo from his current Compaq perspective.qG >Had he wished he could easily have spoken on behalf of the merger team E >but he pointedly did not. That doesn't mean that he does not believeuG >the plans will go through but it does suggest he is not willing to say E >anything at the moment that might cause further embarrassment later.tC >Which is also the view of the 'HP Insider' quoted by the Inquirer.EA >The context of the 'insider' quote suggests he is fairly senior.   B Um.  How could he have spoken on behalf of the merger team when it> doesn't exist at the time of his memo?  Don't they have to getC together, hash out details, and get consensus on a plan before theym* can communicate their positions and plans?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:15:19 -0400e+ From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> . Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange+ Message-ID: <9nlkc7$qnd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3B9E4AF9.DB9C07B3@videotron.ca...J > It will be interesting to see how quickly the ISE comes back up. I wouldI > assume/hope that they have off-site disaster recovery since it is quite:I > evident now that they won't be able to re-open their World Trade CenterT > offices for quite some time.  B "Quite some time"? Did they have offices in one of the two towers? --
 John SaundersT jws@ma.ultranet.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:20:01 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange+ Message-ID: <3B9E63D8.D68AB99@videotron.ca>e   John Saunders wrote:D > "Quite some time"? Did they have offices in one of the two towers?  M Yep. I beleive that ISE was housed in the WTC. (Or perhaps another exchange).dI During the WTC bombing a few years ago, they pressured the authorities toiM allow them to re-open before the building was again accessible to the public.e  N I know that Deutche Bank (formerly Banker's trust) is also houses next door toK the WTC, and I would assume that this building was also partly destroyed as-# would buildings all around the WTC.-  J Disaster recovery plans will be going on full blast. The main data centresN might be offsite, but consider all the ifnormation stored in all those "local"J wintel servers in offices. I doubt that many of them are backup up on to aN different site. (this may not affect retail banking, but non-retail operations owuld be quite affected.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:09:23 -0400 + From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com>n. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange+ Message-ID: <9nlr22$pr4$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message% news:3B9E63D8.D68AB99@videotron.ca...n > John Saunders wrote:F > > "Quite some time"? Did they have offices in one of the two towers? >oD > Yep. I beleive that ISE was housed in the WTC. (Or perhaps another
 exchange).K > During the WTC bombing a few years ago, they pressured the authorities to G > allow them to re-open before the building was again accessible to the  public.R  H My point is, if their datacenter was in one of the two towers, then that datacenter is gone.n --
 John Saunderst jws@ma.ultranet.comv   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:18:06 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger). Subject: Re: International Securities ExchangeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1109011618060001@user-2iveaf3.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <3B9E4AF9.DB9C07B3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeio% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:   J > It will be interesting to see how quickly the ISE comes back up. I wouldI > assume/hope that they have off-site disaster recovery since it is quiteyI > evident now that they won't be able to re-open their World Trade Center  > offices for quite some time.  J ISE is NOT in the WTC.  They are on Broad St. in lower Manhattan, a decentI distance away.  I can't find out how much area is affected by rubble, butdF I expect ISE is ok.  I'm sure the people were evacuated, and utilitiesC etc. are severly disrupted.  Operating from the main location seems0 unlikely for some time.a  J Their back-up VMS systems are not in NYC.  They run all transactions, etc." through both sites simultaneously.  1 I think many brokerage firms were located in WTC.t   -- t Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comg   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 15:29:45 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange3 Message-ID: <d7RJfkQP0Tom@eisner.encompasserve.org>b   In article <rdeininger-1109011618060001@user-2iveaf3.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:n7 > In article <3B9E4AF9.DB9C07B3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeig' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:h > K >> It will be interesting to see how quickly the ISE comes back up. I wouldtJ >> assume/hope that they have off-site disaster recovery since it is quiteJ >> evident now that they won't be able to re-open their World Trade Center >> offices for quite some time.t > L > ISE is NOT in the WTC.  They are on Broad St. in lower Manhattan, a decentG > distance away.  I can't find out how much area is affected by rubble,     My niece got debris in Brooklyn.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:49:00 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger). Subject: Re: International Securities ExchangeL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1109011649000001@user-2ive7li.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <d7RJfkQP0Tom@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   > In articleA <rdeininger-1109011618060001@user-2iveaf3.dialup.mindspring.com>,u4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:9 > > In article <3B9E4AF9.DB9C07B3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei4) > > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:. > > M > >> It will be interesting to see how quickly the ISE comes back up. I wouldhL > >> assume/hope that they have off-site disaster recovery since it is quiteL > >> evident now that they won't be able to re-open their World Trade Center! > >> offices for quite some time.p > > N > > ISE is NOT in the WTC.  They are on Broad St. in lower Manhattan, a decentI > > distance away.  I can't find out how much area is affected by rubble,i > " > My niece got debris in Brooklyn.  G Good God.  Chunks of debris, or soot and dust?  Brooklyn isn't all thati close to the WTC.t  J I heard a bit ago that the Mayor was trapped in a building in the vicinityG of WTC for a while, because stuff from the collapse blocked most of theu exits.   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com@   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:12:07 +0200 B From: Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange7 Message-ID: <3B9E8C37.3717@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>r   Robert Deininger wrote:i > 3 > I think many brokerage firms were located in WTC.   , There used to be al list of firms in WTC at $  http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/  8 The site was taken down, but is still cached at Google. B  http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/  < E.g. the list of Computer Programming Services firms is at :  Q http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/w7371.htmt   -- S ME Posted by news://news.nb.nuo   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:59:59 GMTe0 From: sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander)1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???u0 Message-ID: <jXun7.118$YP.6029@news.cpqcorp.net>   re: www.openvms.compaq.com  > It was down much longer than I expected to do the change over.  D I learned that fast wide scsi is much faster than slow not-wide scsi  + I learned that RZ29's won't fit onto RZ26's-  D I learned that it's a pain to re-configure AS1000 memory from memory  
 That said,  C the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand.94 there is new left nav available on almost every pageJ The server has been upgraded/dated from OpenVMS 6.2, Purveyor 2.x, UCX 4.2# to OpenVMS 7.3, CSWS 1.x, TCPIP 5.1h  < I've re-written all the cgi scripts, [hopefully they work],   M As for content that is the next step. I wanted to brute force the new design.s  L As for shortcomings. 1) NS 3.03 doesn't do style sheets or background imagesO in tables. I've tried to fix it so you can see the stuff but javascript has to t be on.  M IN fact for any netscape you need javascript. There is a bug in Mozilla that lL causes background images to not show. I've heard that it's fixed in the next	 release.    Q For PC based netscape for some reason if you turn off javscript then style sheets " get turned off. I don't know why..  Q As for the visited links. Folks in Houston have gotten the message and the 'gray' > visted links will become some other color when they pick one.   / If you find any quirks or problems let me know.   * My open list still contains the fact that   R ftp://www.openvms.compaq.com doesn't work correctly (it didn't in purveyor either)G ftp to ftp.openvms.compaq.com is broken. You can get in and see the top M level of the freeware directory but you can 'cd' down. It used to work so itsvN some 4.2 to 5.1 issue. Then again FTP archives w/vms have always been a hassle  I If you find any non-ftp related problems please send mail to me, use the uP 'contact us' on the web page or send mail to openvms-info#compaq.com (fix the #)   -warrenB -- 7B ------------------------------------------------------------------6 Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingD Compaq Computer Corporation          Work:  warren.sander@compaq.comE 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@ma.ultranet.coms3 Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875.6    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myself -          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/ cB ------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 18:39:48 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???-3 Message-ID: <Bu61trup1eoJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <jXun7.118$YP.6029@news.cpqcorp.net>, sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) writes:-  E > the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand.e  N > As for shortcomings. 1) NS 3.03 doesn't do style sheets or background imagesQ > in tables. I've tried to fix it so you can see the stuff but javascript has to   > be on.    H Trading security for background images on a web server devoted to VMS is ridiculous.i  G As for style sheets, Dreamweaver 4 will automatically convert them into . HTML V3 compatible pages if you ask it nicely.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:18:31 GMTa+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>h& Subject: Re: MicroVAX II - Test #3 (8)+ Message-ID: <3B9E943A.6177AD8A@ins-msi.com>o   sword7@speakeasy.org wrote:w >  > Hello folks: > I > I am implementing IPCR (Q22 register) interrupts for test #3 (stage 8).e< > Does anyone know its vector and interrupt (within IPL 14)?  A The IPCR interrupt vectors through the System Control Block (SCB)p device vector 204 (hex). i    < > I tested non-existant memory exception and it went so well > (Test #3 (stage 7)). >  > Thank you! >  > -- Tim Stark >  > --4 > Timothy Stark   <><     Inet: sword7@speakeasy.orgL > --------------------------------------------------------------------------G > "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, thatkJ > whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.0 > Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)    
 Jeff Campbelll n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2001 21:52 CDTi' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)f( Subject: Re: More VMS Wish List Items...- Message-ID: <11SEP200121522581@gerg.tamu.edu>e  h In article <howard-8875A5.22081810092001@enews.newsguy.com>, Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> writes...* }In article <9nii2802bd1@drn.newsguy.com>,. } Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote: } 7 }> Why not simply add the ability to do QIO's from DCL?  } J }Yeah, f$qio() and f$qiow().  Remember to throw in some method of INCLUDE 1 }files, or always have all the symbols available.n }--  }Howard S Shubs   I And in order to get them, especially f$qio, you naturally need to be ableg' to do eveeeent flags and ASTs in DCL...l   Yeah, right.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2001 18:42:06 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <9nlltu$bml$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  ( In article <3B9E37C0.70205@townisp.com>,, 	Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> writes:J > WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terrorists wiped  > from the map.  >    While I do agree...c    K > Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culprit 18 > will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals. > H > Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a counter attack so % > once again the terrorists get away.e > 8 > This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American. > I > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated () > in the most aggressive manner possible.  >  >     M It hasn't been that long since our founding fathers were nothing more than a  8 small terrorist organization (boston tea party, anyone?)  M Of course, their tactics were more tame than the jerk-offs who pulled today'sh stunt.   Brianr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:43:37 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9E5B59.30454D10@virgin.net>   Andrew Robert wrote:  H > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated) > in the most aggressive manner possible.o >e  M But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently genuinelylH believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should beH eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this so  absolutely they will die for it.  P My sincere condolences to anyone who has lost friends in this horrific attack. IM don't mean to insult anyone with the above question but until someone answers : this one I don't really see where we productively go next.   >h > Fabio Cardoso wrote: >d
 > > My God > >n > >g- > > I think today the III World War begins...  > >  > >n > >a > >o > >P > >/- > > --- john nixon <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote:- > >-5 > >>Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet,  > >>The two towers of then3 > >>World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have been( > >>attacked by suicide-2 > >>airliners.   One tower at the trade center has > >>collapsed.  Most likely,6 > >>thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but the > >>tragedy is clear.i > >>7 > >>I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wondert > >>how much presence Compaq7 > >>and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is at > >>national disaster of the6 > >>first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive. > >> > >> > >> > >o > >i	 > > =====i > > ========================== > > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > > OpenVMS System Manager > > Rio de Janeiro - Brazilf > > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > > ========================== > >e6 > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!?O > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! MessengerR > > http://im.yahoo.come > >A   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:46:39 -04001 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center> Message-ID: <OFE6117E2E.31E4EC3D-ON85256AC4.006753CC@acml.com>  @ you would be suprised (as evident with the last WTC bombing) how; much of a trail these guys probably left for investigators.e      H                                                                        =)                                       =20tH                     Andrew Robert                                      =)                                       =20rH                     <arobert@town                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic=( Com                                  =20H                     isp.com>                     cc:                   =)                                       =20aH                                          Subject:     OT:: Re: World Tr=) ade Center                            =20tH                     09/11/2001                                         =)                                       =20oH                     12:11 PM                                           =)                                       =20aH                                                                        =)                                       =20-H                                                                        =)                                       =20:      A WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terroristsn wiped 
 from the map.f  @ Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culpritn6 will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals.  ; Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a countert	 attack sor# once again the terrorists get away.   6 This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American.  ; Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizationsd
 eliminated' in the most aggressive manner possible.n         Fabio Cardoso wrote:   > My God >- >-+ > I think today the III World War begins...: >0 >0 >i >r >  >M+ > --- john nixon <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote:: >:3 >>Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet,6 >>The two towers of thee1 >>World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have beent >>attacked by suicide 0 >>airliners.   One tower at the trade center has >>collapsed.  Most likely,4 >>thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but the >>tragedy is clear.r >>5 >>I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wonderi >>how much presence Compaq5 >>and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is an >>national disaster of the4 >>first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive. >> >> >> >  >t > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoH > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=	 =3D=3D=3Dl > F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazile > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brH > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=	 =3D=3D=3De >t4 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?< > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com  >n          F ______________________________________________________________________  : The information contained in this transmission may contain< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for9                   delivering this message to the intendedo)                   recipient,  any review,a?                   dissemination, distribution or duplication oft$                   this communication<                   is strictly prohibited. If you are not the%                   intended recipient, @                   please contact the sender immediately by reply$                   e-mail and destroy6                   all copies of the original message.=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:54:34 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>1( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911125111.04122c38@ntbsod.psccos.com>  ( At 12:43 PM 9/11/2001, Alan Greig wrote: >Andrew Robert wrote:e >oJ > > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated+ > > in the most aggressive manner possible.v > >  > N >But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently genuinelyI >believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should beaI >eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this sob! >absolutely they will die for it.   G It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them.tK Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds overlyiI brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremeoH prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tL alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's something thatK we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several thousandmJ dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever will be.  And then God help the USA.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:08:34 -0400d' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9nlqtt$3tq$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message< news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911125111.04122c38@ntbsod.psccos.com...* > At 12:43 PM 9/11/2001, Alan Greig wrote: > >Andrew Robert wrote:o > >sL > > > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated- > > > in the most aggressive manner possible.t > > >  > >sF > >But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently	 genuinelyaK > >believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should bebK > >eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this so1# > >absolutely they will die for it.s >nI > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them.eF > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds overlyK > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremerJ > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tI > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's somethingw thatD > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several thousandL > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever will! > be.  And then God help the USA.   J Reactions (and, even worse, originating actions) that assume that the U.S.L has the right to do anything it may feel inclined to are a lot of what causeJ people around the world to hate us enough to perform acts such as today's.K I could observe that wiping out people who think like you do might do a lotoF to ease the situation - but I don't believe that's an effective answer either.   H If the individuals who participated in enacting today's terrorism can beH identified with some certainty, they should certainly be made to pay forL it - by whatever means are required to be effective.  Conversely, anyone whoJ can't be so identified with reasonable certainty is in no way a legitimateG target (or even acceptable as 'collateral damage') - even those who may G express delight in the attack after the fact.  Failure to abide by such>I precepts places one on the exact same plane as the terrorists themselves,7I and in effect validates their actions (not to mention encouraging more ina return).  G The other side of the coin is the same as the one we're so reluctant toaJ address in dealing with our own societal problems:  trying to ease some ofE the underlying causes, rather than suppress their effects.  There aresL identifiable reasons why the U.S. is hated in much of the world, and many ofK them are not reasons for us to be proud of.  As long as we act as if we canzJ engage with the the rest of the world only when it suits us, and ignore orF bully them the rest of the time, we will as a country at least to someI degree deserve what we get (even though the individuals who pay the priced may not be those who should).8   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:28:14 GMT " From: Art Rice <arice@myhouse.org>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center: Message-ID: <Olvn7.7900$XA5.425137@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>   Andrew Robert wrote:  I > WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terrorists wipeds > from the map.p > J > Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culprit8 > will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals. > G > Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a counter attack so % > once again the terrorists get away.g >   H Well then. maybe just go after the countries that "host" the terrorists.  8 > This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American. > H > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated) > in the most aggressive manner possible.v >  >  >  >  > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 	 >> My Godu >>   >> c, >> I think today the III World War begins... >> g >>   >> s >> o >> w >> e, >> --- john nixon <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> o4 >>>Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet, >>>The two towers of the2 >>>World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have been >>>attacked by suicide1 >>>airliners.   One tower at the trade center hast >>>collapsed.  Most likely,e5 >>>thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but theo >>>tragedy is clear. >>> 6 >>>I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wonder >>>how much presence Compaqr6 >>>and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is a >>>national disaster of theY5 >>>first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive.i  E Quite a large number of openVMS, Tandem, and HP in that area of town.s   >>>e >>>i >>>  >> v >> v >> ===== >> ==========================n >> Fbio dos Santos Cardosos >> OpenVMS System Managere >> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil >> fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brv >> ==========================  >> r5 >> __________________________________________________- >> Do You Yahoo!?-D >> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!  >> Messenger http://im.yahoo.com >> n >  >    -- c Art Rice Tandem Admin Special Data Processing Corp ----------------------------* All opinions are my own and do not reflect* the views of the above mentioned employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:35:07 -0600-% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>-( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com>  ' At 02:08 PM 9/11/2001, Bill Todd wrote:p  3 >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message@ >nK > > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them.nH > > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds >overlynM > > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremesL > > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tK > > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's somethingy >thatcF > > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several	 >thousandtN > > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever will# > > be.  And then God help the USA.- >-K >Reactions (and, even worse, originating actions) that assume that the U.S.jM >has the right to do anything it may feel inclined to are a lot of what cause9K >people around the world to hate us enough to perform acts such as today's.kL >I could observe that wiping out people who think like you do might do a lotG >to ease the situation - but I don't believe that's an effective answer  >either.  J But the attitude such as the one you're displaying is EXACTLY why we don'tI take effective action as a nation - the "Blame America First" crowd.  ThesI bottom line is "we're #1" (for lack of a better way to put it), and there K are too many in this country who seem to feel we should be ashamed of that.-I And that pantywaist viewpoint is what leads to horrible things like this.tJ If you know you can act with impunity, without fear of *REAL* retribution,) what's to  stop you from trying ANYTHING?   L Sorry, Bill, but the "turn the other cheek" thing only goes so far.  Ask theI families of the thousands of dead Americans who died today how they might K feel.  My standards of compassion for those who wave flags and cheer in the D streets at the news of these thousands of death has hit rock-bottom.  K My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous andeI substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.  At times like this, iflG we acted more directly to deal with this type of situation, rather thanrI saying "hmmm, maybe we're at fault for making them hate us", we would cutdI WAY down on the instances of this sort of thing.   Witness Libya in 1986.wM Prior to Regan's raid against them, they were very active in world terrorism.tM One bombing raid later, once they found that a reaction gets a real reaction,lL they stopped - and stopped for a number of years, to the point where they'reH still not near the exporters of terrorism they once were - 15 years ago!   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:57:09 GMTE0 From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <3B9EA4D0.A49C426F@mailbag.com>t  D If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourG soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes intocD the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssC Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United Statesn$ constitution died today as a result.  : When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.    Kyrie eleison...     Dan O'Reilly wrote:a > * > At 12:43 PM 9/11/2001, Alan Greig wrote: > >Andrew Robert wrote:  > > L > > > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated- > > > in the most aggressive manner possible.y > > >e > > P > >But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently genuinelyK > >believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should be:K > >eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this soo# > >absolutely they will die for it.5 > I > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them. M > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds overlysK > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremenJ > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tN > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's something thatM > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several thousandoL > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever will! > be.  And then God help the USA.n   William  -- o* You better watch out    What you wish for;+ It better be worth it   So much to die for. -                                 Courtney Love    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:25:07 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>u( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9nm9v2$gso$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message< news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...) > At 02:08 PM 9/11/2001, Bill Todd wrote:> >u5 > >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in messageg > >sG > > > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate  them. J > > > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds	 > >overlyiG > > > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them withv extreme G > > > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tC > > > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it'si	 somethingi > >thataH > > > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several > >thousand_K > > > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever  will% > > > be.  And then God help the USA.  > >/H > >Reactions (and, even worse, originating actions) that assume that the U.S.I > >has the right to do anything it may feel inclined to are a lot of what: cause:D > >people around the world to hate us enough to perform acts such as today's.J > >I could observe that wiping out people who think like you do might do a lothI > >to ease the situation - but I don't believe that's an effective answer 
 > >either. > L > But the attitude such as the one you're displaying is EXACTLY why we don'tK > take effective action as a nation - the "Blame America First" crowd.  The K > bottom line is "we're #1" (for lack of a better way to put it), and thereeG > are too many in this country who seem to feel we should be ashamed of  that.   H I'm in no way ashamed of being successful - I'm just ashamed that we  a)L seem to believe that success is a right rather than a privilege and  b) seemK to think we have the right to use it to fuck up the rest of the world if we 
 feel like it.   K > And that pantywaist viewpoint is what leads to horrible things like this.   I Bullshit.  What leads to horrible things like this is horrible conditions = that make people desperate enough to do *anything* in return.   L > If you know you can act with impunity, without fear of *REAL* retribution,+ > what's to  stop you from trying ANYTHING?-  A Don't be an idiot.  The people on the planes were happy to die in I accomplishing their goals.  Just what kind of retribution do you think isrJ likely to stop such people effectively - assuming that they really believe you'll find them at all?   >aE > Sorry, Bill, but the "turn the other cheek" thing only goes so far.a  I No one asked Americe to turn the other cheek, just to clean up its act so F that if people are desperate they'll be more likely to look on us as a) source of hope rather than as the enemy..a  	   Ask thelK > families of the thousands of dead Americans who died today how they might  > feel.e  B I understand how they feel, but they're hardly in a position to be
 objective.  F   My standards of compassion for those who wave flags and cheer in theF > streets at the news of these thousands of death has hit rock-bottom.  < Then perhaps you should forget about compassion and considerI self-preservation:  there are a hell of a lot more of them (or people whowK may all too easily become them) than there are of us, and we have a hell of   a lot more to lose than they do.   >dI > My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous> anduK > substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.  At times like this, if>I > we acted more directly to deal with this type of situation, rather thanvK > saying "hmmm, maybe we're at fault for making them hate us", we would cut32 > WAY down on the instances of this sort of thing.  J Right:  look at how well Israel has done by getting tougher this past year0 or so.  Or do you consider them pantywaists too?      Witness Libya in 1986.3D > Prior to Regan's raid against them, they were very active in world
 terrorism.E > One bombing raid later, once they found that a reaction gets a real 	 reaction,sF > they stopped - and stopped for a number of years, to the point where they're_J > still not near the exporters of terrorism they once were - 15 years ago!  J Easier to stop a state, since it's kind of hard to move it around to avoidK retribution.  So states have gotten out of the retail terrorism biz and letaH the entrepreneurs take over:  not clear there's been much net reduction,L though, and (as usual) the entrepreneurs seem to be better at the enterprise than the states were.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:36:07 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>  3 At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: E >If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on youreH >soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes intoE >the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AsslD >Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United States% >constitution died today as a result.A  I Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of our country!  Lest G you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudlynI stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's the dangerousrJ man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who doesn't attackL us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and sincerely as a friend;/ those who do attack us, should fear us greatly.   K My soul is in very good hands, thank you very much; I have no worries alongtK those lines.  And I hope with all my soul that President Bush does have thesK balls to enforce the laws of our country and take terrible revenge on thosexL who have killed our countrymen.  Unlike, apparently, you, who would let themK get away with it except for maybe the do-nothing world court and their ilk.hK The Constitution doesn't provide for our country to do nothing.  It doesn'tnJ call for us to not take action when we're attacked.  The true death of theJ Constitution is in the hands of the people who would try to hide behind itL rather than have the courage to come out and stand up for it by fighting for it.j  : >When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.  H ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do is toI stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the last1 8 years.   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |tI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |rI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |nI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 21:29:41 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <91bSAyA7J+Fi@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  j In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:5 > At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:hF >>If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourI >>soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes intoiF >>the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssE >>Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United Stateso& >>constitution died today as a result. > K > Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of our country!  LestuI > you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudlyoK > stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's the dangeroustL > man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who doesn't attackN > us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and sincerely as a friend;1 > those who do attack us, should fear us greatly.o > M > My soul is in very good hands, thank you very much; I have no worries alongaM > those lines.  And I hope with all my soul that President Bush does have theeM > balls to enforce the laws of our country and take terrible revenge on thoseeN > who have killed our countrymen.  Unlike, apparently, you, who would let themM > get away with it except for maybe the do-nothing world court and their ilk.nM > The Constitution doesn't provide for our country to do nothing.  It doesn't L > call for us to not take action when we're attacked.  The true death of theL > Constitution is in the hands of the people who would try to hide behind itN > rather than have the courage to come out and stand up for it by fighting for > it.  > ; >>When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.  > J > ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do is toK > stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the laste
 > 8 years.  G And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can'teE travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyoneeI without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.cE Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our preciouspK liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as a resultuF of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanical issue.  K They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safetyrJ deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:29:06 -0400e+ From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com>s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9nmha2$4c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message< news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...I > My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievousi andd3 > substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.o  L Dan, learn to understand your enemy. The terrorists who were on those planesF can hardly be called cowardly. Bastards, yes, but these people weren't afraid to die. --
 John Saundersh jws@ma.ultranet.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:56:37 -0400d0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com>n  G Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back theno  E The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 yearseF later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the5 computing hardware requirements of George Washington.>   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts= http://www.islandco.coma sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.a 2700 Gregory Streetb Savannah GA 31404b Tel: 912 447 6622= Fax: 912 201 0096r ICQ#: 130698221_D Bob Kaplow <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:91bSAyA7J+Fi@eisner.encompasserve.org...wH > In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan# O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:s7 > > At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:mH > >>If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourK > >>soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes into H > >>the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssG > >>Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United Statest( > >>constitution died today as a result. > > G > > Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of our country!e LestK > > you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudlybC > > stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's theo	 dangeroussG > > man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who doesn'ti attackH > > us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and sincerely as a friend;I3 > > those who do attack us, should fear us greatly.  > >vI > > My soul is in very good hands, thank you very much; I have no worries  alongdK > > those lines.  And I hope with all my soul that President Bush does havee thedI > > balls to enforce the laws of our country and take terrible revenge ono thosetK > > who have killed our countrymen.  Unlike, apparently, you, who would let  themJ > > get away with it except for maybe the do-nothing world court and their ilk.G > > The Constitution doesn't provide for our country to do nothing.  Itu doesn't J > > call for us to not take action when we're attacked.  The true death of the K > > Constitution is in the hands of the people who would try to hide behindh itL > > rather than have the courage to come out and stand up for it by fighting for  > > it.n > >"= > >>When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.  > >aL > > ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do is toH > > stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the last > > 8 years. >pI > And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can't G > travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyone K > without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.hG > Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our precioussF > liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as a resultH > of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanical > issue. >eF > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safetyL > deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review > of Pennsylvania. 1759u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:49:09 -0400i0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <tptirfp59b7d6b@news.supernews.com>l   Bill  G You're forgetting the reason that Bin Ladin (or whatever) and his otheroL extremist counterparts, aren' t the enemy of the USA for just socio-economicI reasons - they actually believe it is their "raison d'etre" to spread the-F word of Allah - America sees this as a threat a counters this with theB spread of it's libertarian views; including a lose religion called? christianity. (as Xionism includes the same God, then that too)eL Allah is, in their eyes, the All-Giving Ominpotent, Omnipresence, OnmiscientJ eye in the sky, and as far as they are concerned, if you're not a followerL of their Supreme Leader, then their attitude is "die you non-muslim basterd"L They will exercise this attitude everywhere as well; not just in the USA but: the UK (remember Salman Rushti) and in other G8 countries.   As for the Muslim religion.lF Christianity (and I am actually an Agnostic) propogates good will unto7 fellow man (whomever he be) - even if they are Muslims. J The fundamentals of the Muslim religion are only guerrish and based around, very specific actions towards ANY non MuslimJ The Koran is basically a bible de mort  to other Nationalities and creeds,L and should be considered as such when the Western world starts defending its$ shores (hopefully better than today)  K As for anyone believing that "America asked for it" - Well... I don't thinkl? so - no citizen of any country should have to put up with this. F America has been good to me ( I am a limey who is lucky enough to liveI here - and have done for 13 years by choice). Along with the countries ofxK Northern Europe, I can say that free society (i.e. countries where I am notrH forced to pray 5 times a day or flogged for my disbeliefs) is the better choice for man-kinde -l  F My thoughts - and hopefully those of pretty much everyone else in this
 newsgroup.       -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts  http://www.islandco.comt sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.t 2700 Gregory Street; Savannah GA 31404h Tel: 912 447 6622e Fax: 912 201 0096  ICQ#: 130698221 0 Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9nm9v2$gso$1@pyrite.mv.net... >04 > "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message> > news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...+ > > At 02:08 PM 9/11/2001, Bill Todd wrote:m > >t7 > > >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in messages > > >oI > > > > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate  > them.cL > > > > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds > > >overly,I > > > > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them witht	 > extremetI > > > > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they  > aren'tE > > > > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it'sv > something 	 > > >thatrJ > > > > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several
 > > >thousandtH > > > > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever > will' > > > > be.  And then God help the USA.  > > >cJ > > >Reactions (and, even worse, originating actions) that assume that the > U.S.K > > >has the right to do anything it may feel inclined to are a lot of what. > causesF > > >people around the world to hate us enough to perform acts such as
 > today's.L > > >I could observe that wiping out people who think like you do might do a > lotoK > > >to ease the situation - but I don't believe that's an effective answera > > >either. > >bH > > But the attitude such as the one you're displaying is EXACTLY why we don'teH > > take effective action as a nation - the "Blame America First" crowd. ThetG > > bottom line is "we're #1" (for lack of a better way to put it), ands there I > > are too many in this country who seem to feel we should be ashamed ofs > that.w >sJ > I'm in no way ashamed of being successful - I'm just ashamed that we  a)I > seem to believe that success is a right rather than a privilege and  b)i seemJ > to think we have the right to use it to fuck up the rest of the world if we > feel like it.t > G > > And that pantywaist viewpoint is what leads to horrible things likea this.  >hK > Bullshit.  What leads to horrible things like this is horrible conditionsh? > that make people desperate enough to do *anything* in return.d >aA > > If you know you can act with impunity, without fear of *REAL*t retribution,- > > what's to  stop you from trying ANYTHING?t >nC > Don't be an idiot.  The people on the planes were happy to die inpK > accomplishing their goals.  Just what kind of retribution do you think isuL > likely to stop such people effectively - assuming that they really believe > you'll find them at all? >l > > G > > Sorry, Bill, but the "turn the other cheek" thing only goes so far.a > K > No one asked Americe to turn the other cheek, just to clean up its act sohH > that if people are desperate they'll be more likely to look on us as a+ > source of hope rather than as the enemy..s >h >   Ask thesG > > families of the thousands of dead Americans who died today how theyl might 	 > > feel.h >tD > I understand how they feel, but they're hardly in a position to be > objective. >sH >   My standards of compassion for those who wave flags and cheer in theH > > streets at the news of these thousands of death has hit rock-bottom. >t> > Then perhaps you should forget about compassion and considerK > self-preservation:  there are a hell of a lot more of them (or people whohJ > may all too easily become them) than there are of us, and we have a hell of" > a lot more to lose than they do. >a > >bK > > My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievousm > andrJ > > substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.  At times like this, ifK > > we acted more directly to deal with this type of situation, rather thanhI > > saying "hmmm, maybe we're at fault for making them hate us", we wouldn cut 4 > > WAY down on the instances of this sort of thing. >eL > Right:  look at how well Israel has done by getting tougher this past year2 > or so.  Or do you consider them pantywaists too? >m >    Witness Libya in 1986.rF > > Prior to Regan's raid against them, they were very active in world > terrorism.G > > One bombing raid later, once they found that a reaction gets a realp > reaction,hH > > they stopped - and stopped for a number of years, to the point where	 > they're L > > still not near the exporters of terrorism they once were - 15 years ago! >bL > Easier to stop a state, since it's kind of hard to move it around to avoidI > retribution.  So states have gotten out of the retail terrorism biz and  letaJ > the entrepreneurs take over:  not clear there's been much net reduction,C > though, and (as usual) the entrepreneurs seem to be better at the1
 enterprise > than the states were.  >e > - bill >o >s >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:54:10 -06009% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911204639.04153f10@ntbsod.psccos.com>  ( At 08:29 PM 9/11/2001, Bob Kaplow wrote:H >In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan $ >O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:7 > > At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:t >U= > >>When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.l > > L > > ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do is toM > > stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the lasta > > 8 years. >AH >And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can'tF >travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyoneJ >without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.F >Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our preciousL >liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as a resultG >of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanicalk >issue.e  . Oh, c'mon, Bob!  You know me better than that!  K How is hunting down these criminals and punishing them with great prejudicebM going to lead to a police state here?  I fail to make the connection.  I havefM not, and I never will, advocated anything like that here.  And I've not heard O anybody, either in this group or on any news show, paper, radio show, anyplace,eL advocate it.  What I am saying is that those who did this MUST be brought toK justice - and justice of the USA, not the World Court, or NATO, or anybody t else. J And it's very possible to do so without turning our country in to a police state.   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |-I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |uI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:53:12 -0600-% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>-( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911205108.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com>  + At 08:29 PM 9/11/2001, John Saunders wrote:-3 >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in messaget= >news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...nK > > My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievoust >and5 > > substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.d >rM >Dan, learn to understand your enemy. The terrorists who were on those planeshG >can hardly be called cowardly. Bastards, yes, but these people weren'tt >afraid to die.>  K In my book, any man who is afraid to confront me as a man is a coward.  AnyuJ man who must use innocent people (men, women, children) to do his own workJ like this is a coward.  Maybe that's an old-fashioned attitude in this day< and age, but it's how I was raised and it works fine for me.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:15:06 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9nmne6$r1b$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ; "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message ) news:tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com...vI > Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back thens > G > The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 yearsuH > later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the7 > computing hardware requirements of George Washington.y  I Y'know, it's the thought of people like you deciding to 'improve' it thato0 makes people like me so intent on protecting it.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 23:32:07 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <aF5wvmyypn0F@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  R In article <9nlqtt$3tq$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   > I > The other side of the coin is the same as the one we're so reluctant to'L > address in dealing with our own societal problems:  trying to ease some ofG > the underlying causes, rather than suppress their effects.  There arenN > identifiable reasons why the U.S. is hated in much of the world, and many ofM > them are not reasons for us to be proud of.  As long as we act as if we can L > engage with the the rest of the world only when it suits us, and ignore orH > bully them the rest of the time, we will as a country at least to someK > degree deserve what we get (even though the individuals who pay the pricen > may not be those who should).a >   < 	Much of the hatred is manufactured by religious extremists.  > 	We had two Nigerian fellows over on Sunday.  One was quick to< 	dial home (or attempt to) as his city is undergoing attacks? 	by Muslims on Christians and he fears for his family's safety.n  < 	It is outright brutality and doesn't get much press and/or 9 	is buried in news reports.  Here is a snippet of what isO 	taking place:  : http://www.barnabasfund.org/nigeria%20petition/update1.htm  O "The Muslim methods were brutal. Many Christians were deliberately burnt alive.eN Others were hacked to death with machetes or killed with poisoned arrows. TheyO were shot. Their throats were slit. They were beheaded. Men, women and children L were shown no pity. "Our people have been shot, butchered and roasted," saidF Josiah Fearon, the Anglican bishop of Kaduna. The most vulnerable were# Christians living in Muslim areas."1    A 	You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christiansj' 	as it is not supported by their faith.s  A 	I heard first hand about similar acts as those above.  What alsodB 	happens is that extremists spread lies about America.  We are allB 	"Christians" is what Nigerians are told.  That we are vicious and@ 	all sorts of other stories.  Fortunately, enough Nigerians comeA 	to this country and go home to tell their fellow countrymen whatn> 	a great place this is.  That is what the two Nigerians we had@ 	over on Sunday said.  They know this country is great, and they 	are very excited to be here.2  G 	I'll bet to a person , most Americans have friends in other countries.eB 	We can think off the top of our heads of dozens of countries thatA 	are our friends/allies.  I have made friends in Columbia, Chile,3C 	Argentina when there on business.  Took the Chileans shopping when 5 	they were here.  They thought that was the greatest!   F 	In many cases, it is simple wickedness fomented by religious fanatics@ 	and supported by their beliefs.  Today, several of them believe8 	they earned a ticket to "Paradise" for their martyrdom.  ? 	They got a ticket all right, but it wasn't what they expected.   L John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."l  L Matthew 25:31-32 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angelsN with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will beJ gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a, shepherd separates the sheep and the goats."   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:34:33 -0400i' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9nmoil$rh3$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message< news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911204639.04153f10@ntbsod.psccos.com...* > At 08:29 PM 9/11/2001, Bob Kaplow wrote:I > >In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dano& > >O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:9 > > > At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:  > >t? > > >>When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won.o > > >rK > > > ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do isn toJ > > > stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the last > > > 8 years. > >yJ > >And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can'tH > >travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyoneL > >without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.H > >Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our preciousG > >liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as ah resultI > >of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanicalt	 > >issue.e >"0 > Oh, c'mon, Bob!  You know me better than that! >aC > How is hunting down these criminals and punishing them with greatv	 prejudiceeJ > going to lead to a police state here?  I fail to make the connection.  I haveI > not, and I never will, advocated anything like that here.  And I've noto heard G > anybody, either in this group or on any news show, paper, radio show,a	 anyplace,sK > advocate it.  What I am saying is that those who did this MUST be broughtt toL > justice - and justice of the USA, not the World Court, or NATO, or anybody > else.-  K That's *not* what you said, and why I responded (including, should you careoJ to go back and check, my own statement that those who did this *should* be brought to justice).  J What you said was, "we eliminate them.  Period.  And you do it before they: can do it to you.  If that sounds overly brutal, too bad."  I Eliminating those whom you suspect might wish you harm is a hell of a loteL different from bringing to justice those who have actually harmed you.  It'sB knee-jerk vengeance against the wrong target, rather than anythingK resembling the level of 'justice' that a nation is responsible for adheringsI to if it's not to be considered a rogue - and the phrasing you chose (andnF rejection of the idea that any other entity could mete out appropriateE 'justice') makes your lack of interest in real 'justice' all the morei evident.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 01:06:43 -0400;' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <9nmqf0$ma$1@pyrite.mv.net>a  ; "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message ) news:tptirfp59b7d6b@news.supernews.com...a > Bill > I > You're forgetting the reason that Bin Ladin (or whatever) and his otherd? > extremist counterparts, aren' t the enemy of the USA for justc socio-economicK > reasons - they actually believe it is their "raison d'etre" to spread theeH > word of Allah - America sees this as a threat a counters this with theD > spread of it's libertarian views; including a lose religion calledA > christianity. (as Xionism includes the same God, then that too)pC > Allah is, in their eyes, the All-Giving Ominpotent, Omnipresence, 
 OnmiscientL > eye in the sky, and as far as they are concerned, if you're not a followerE > of their Supreme Leader, then their attitude is "die you non-muslima basterd"J > They will exercise this attitude everywhere as well; not just in the USA butr< > the UK (remember Salman Rushti) and in other G8 countries.  J You are describing (if anyone at all - I'm not an expert) a small cadre ofF Muslim extremists who would amount to nothing without the sympathy andF support of a far larger distressed but otherwise unextreme population.   >6 > As for the Muslim religion. H > Christianity (and I am actually an Agnostic) propogates good will unto9 > fellow man (whomever he be) - even if they are Muslims.c  K I'm sure the Muslims were duly impressed by the good will propagated duringoC the Crusades, when the marauding Christians massacred Jews, central'I Europeans, and even fellow Christians with zeal apparently equal to theiri interest in attacking Muslims.  L > The fundamentals of the Muslim religion are only guerrish and based around. > very specific actions towards ANY non Muslim  K I always thought that the Muslim religion took Christianity as its base (asmI the Christian religion takes Judaism as its base) and built upon it.  AndeL that it was at least as tolerant as Christianity.  But as an agnostic myself* I'm by no means an expert on such matters.  L > The Koran is basically a bible de mort  to other Nationalities and creeds,J > and should be considered as such when the Western world starts defending its & > shores (hopefully better than today) >UG > As for anyone believing that "America asked for it" - Well... I don'ta thinkhA > so - no citizen of any country should have to put up with this.n  L Of course not.  Just as no citizen of any country should have to put up withG oppression, whether legal, social, or economic.  If we helped the worldoH eliminate that (and who else is in as good a position to do so?), ratherJ than tacitly ignored or in some cases actively fostered it, then we'd haveF little to worry about.  And my meagre acquaintance with both religionsJ suggests to me that such behavior would be consonant with the teachings of
 both of them.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:56:44 GMT  From: DDC1bVcGL@yahoo.comyQ Subject: Pink P.U.S.S.Y!! Join our F~R~E~E pre-teen site of pu55y!! 80.242.92.162f7 Message-ID: <ebhjehc5mpxnkaixlbkze2l8h3wfkhboh@4ax.com>t  ` If you are tired of all that terrorist bullshit, see our teen babes fuck and suck massive cocks! http://www.massivepink.com Pre-Teen fuck shots, cumshots! http://www.massivepink.com    @ lHNiXNfv20uOkwMvOOkn5rgbH29C/H0y6ASY0gucuCrB6puOMAtSWT6x0+kSohFKI 72434227208tlf0fedo not kick the protocols compleatly, slump them locallyi: For Ron connector's stupid, near me it's idiotic, whereas 6 outside you it's obscuring outer.  We relay the weird B bug.  Mitch, still confronting, vexates almost compleatly, as the D programmer crawls alongside their CDROM.  Are you orthodox, I mean, 6 eliminating beside cosmetic errors?  As eventually as : Ronnie collaborates, you can load the interrupt much more 8 grudgingly.  Mark busts the workstation inside hers and 5 tamely learns.  Linette's government connects on our ,3 client after we interface behind it.  The insecure  ; ISDN rarely flows Pauline, it preserves Lawrence instead.   F Who will you pump the shiny blank cowboys before Evan does?  He'll be 4 disappearing without lower Bonita until his warning < saves amazingly.  Charlie will wash the secure backdoor and ; transport it under its peapod.  If you'll produce Bonita's  < CERT with plotters, it'll partly persevere the laptop.  Her < operator was discarded, chosen, and consumes throughout the 8 doorway.  Never type a remailer!  Never proliferate the 9 interfaces quietly, contradict them truly.  She wants to k8 close moronic texts on Melvin's /dev/null.  These days, 6 black bags annoy inside weak mailboxs, unless they're 8 erect.  Why did Joseph compile the rumour alongside the ; specialized fraud?  Some trackballs disconnect, train, and f9 dream.  Yolanda will actually defeat within Ron when the o5 unlimited enigmas manage inside the official arena.  g   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Sep 2001 18:23:56 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e6 Subject: Re: Request: News and Updates from CETS 2001?, Message-ID: <9nlkrs$206r$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <AikK3cG98GRP@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c |> In article <9nlc9q$1sqb$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:a8 |> > In article <q4NgP+Et+JPp@eisner.encompasserve.org>,5 |> >  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:n~ |> > |> In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10109080910310.3825-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:	 |> > |> >dO |> > |> > I'd like to suggest that any and all denizens of c.o.v who will be atpK |> > |> > CETS 2001 next week say "hi" to Bob Curley from the University ofaK |> > |> > Scranton.  All the sudden popularity should drive him nuts!!  :-)a |> > |> M |> > |> Can you give us a hint regarding what he looks like and what sessions:  |> > |> he is likely to attend ? |> > oK |> > Nope, afraid not.  But I figured like the conferences I used to get toeI |> > go to that the people would be wearing nametags that said where they- |> > were from.  |> eL |> Not at breakfast in the hotel where I met him and we talked about you :-)  % Uh Oh.  I'll bet I'm in for it now!!!e   bill   -- 0J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   B   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:49:37 GMTe' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>e Subject: Re: RIP Bill Gatesa0 Message-ID: <3B9E6EE3.2C5ABEEE@bellatlantic.net>   Brian Wheeler wrote: > ' > In article <9ndgae$m9u@web.nmti.com>,.2 >         peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:S > > In article <9n3t8t$b6e$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:sP > >> Tru64 suffers in this acquisition from being the technology of the acquireeP > >> rather than the acquirer, from competing with an existing Unix owned by theQ > >> acquirer, from being a little-endian system that won't easily be melded with O > >> the acquirer's big-endian system, from being currently available only on a L > >> lame-duck hardware platform, and from already having given a lot of its& > >> differentiating goodies to Linux. > >  > > ISTR IA64 is little-endian.e > >IN > > And if you think Tru64 has given away most of its differentiating goodies,, > > well, you haven't been paying attention. > & > > Where's Linux clustering? Beowulf?A Available in Linux, and various BSD variants.  Comeone you guys, h: you have choices.  If we don't take the appropriate steps,C we may all have to run IA64 eventually, but we right now we can runn alphas, A vaxen, sun, MIPS, moto, and even Power.  act with your checkbook.t bob  > M > What about MOSIX or Compaq's SSI-Linux and CI-Linux?  Granted, the last two M > are in early development and based on the Nonstop cluster for unixware, butr. > I can't believe there's not some bleed over. > 6 > > And either of AdvFS or UFS are better than Ext2fs. > K > Based on what?  I've never had any problems with ext2.  In any case, with L > IBM's JFS and SGI's XFS now available, there are plenty of filesystems for6 > linux which are equal to or better than UFS & AdvFS. >  > Brian Wheeler, > bdwheele@indiana.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:15:05 +0400r4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. 0 Message-ID: <3B9E54A9.FB6B0714@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   Nic Clews wrote: >  > Alan Greig wrote:1J > > So based on current Compaq roadmaps VMS *will* outlive Tru64. Outlived > > DEC, and outlived Compaq.g >  > Alan,d >  > OpenVMS is truly legacy.
 	BULLSHIT! -- r Cheers, Ruslan. ? +----------------pure personal opinion------------------------+p9     RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.comt6       vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS)                 Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:37:55 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. * Message-ID: <3B9E5A03.A9956813@virgin.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  # > IIt is an early adopters release.1 >e  _ If it is stable as the Alpha early adopters release and generally orderable for evaluation then b that's fine by me. I placed a DEC 3000-400 into general student use (with appropriate warnings) atd VMS/AXP 1.0 and regularly had up to 100 users on it and this was with third party (ie cheap) memory,a scsi disks etc. That machine almost single-handedly justified major investment in VMS on Alpha by0c the university. Until Digital, five years later, convinced management Alpha/NT was the way forward.a   >qP > ==============================================================================K > The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything.L >      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willK >      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings J >      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival  >      of the online community."P > ==============================================================================   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:52:29 +0100m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. * Message-ID: <3B9E5D6D.4D4834F3@virgin.net>   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:   > Nic Clews wrote: > >r > > Alan Greig wrote:uL > > > So based on current Compaq roadmaps VMS *will* outlive Tru64. Outlived > > > DEC, and outlived Compaq.r > > 	 > > Alan,m > >r > > OpenVMS is truly legacy. >         BULLSHIT!o >   L Non native English speakers might not notice that Nic was using a particularL definition of 'legacy' that can mean a *valuable* item that might  be passed8 down from parent to child. In this case DEC=>Compaq=>HP.       > -- > Cheers, Ruslan.dA > +----------------pure personal opinion------------------------+l; >     RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.comI8 >       vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS+ >                 Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222p   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 15:33:22 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.a3 Message-ID: <OwGixvng9UJZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  R In article <3B9E5A03.A9956813@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >  >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > $ >> IIt is an early adopters release. >> > a > If it is stable as the Alpha early adopters release and generally orderable for evaluation thenid > that's fine by me. I placed a DEC 3000-400 into general student use (with appropriate warnings) atf > VMS/AXP 1.0 and regularly had up to 100 users on it and this was with third party (ie cheap) memory,  E Mark Gorham's slides indicated the first early adopters release wouldsF have DECnet Phase IV (he paused expecting applause) but no clustering.F They are hedging about support (as distinguished from code) for triple architecture clusters.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2001 15:34:40 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.e3 Message-ID: <8artsoo+bscZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  R In article <3B9E5D6D.4D4834F3@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >  >  > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: >  >> Nic Clews wrote:m >> > >> > Alan Greig wrote:M >> > > So based on current Compaq roadmaps VMS *will* outlive Tru64. Outlivedo  >> > > DEC, and outlived Compaq. >> >
 >> > Alan, >> > >> > OpenVMS is truly legacy.i >>         BULLSHIT! >> > N > Non native English speakers might not notice that Nic was using a particularN > definition of 'legacy' that can mean a *valuable* item that might  be passed: > down from parent to child. In this case DEC=>Compaq=>HP.  A My wife's former boss, a long time IBM fellow, define "legacy" as" "stuff that works".o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:18:28 +0200n  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>< Subject: Re: Where can I get a micro-Vax with vms in the UK?+ Message-ID: <VA.0000043b.007da2e3@sture.ch>s   In article aM <F5949552111A66489D2D578D92B3697201D66681@reoexc04.emea.cpqcorp.net>, Graham :
 Pye wrote:M > <<<< I have the hobbyist license and included in the PAKs a re a bunch witheG > <<<< the names ALLIN1-MAIL-*   Is that a normal ALL-IN-1 license PAK?o > E > The PAK ALLIN1-MAIL might be MailWorks, which was (bizarrely) namedpM > ALL-IN-1/Mail at one time. I say bizarrely because the two products have no1M > technology (software) in common, and both development groups thought it was. > a dumb idea :-)  > > > Here's the list of ALL-IN-1/Office Server licence PAK names: > E >  ALLIN1, ALLIN1-NOMR, ALLIN1-CORE, ALLIN1-STARTER, ALLIN1-PERSONAL,n> >  ALLIN1-CORE-PERSONAL, ALLIN1-STARTER-PERSONAL, ALLIN1CLSVR,8 >  ALLIN1CLSVR-PERSONAL, ALLIN1-USER,  ALLIN1-NOMR-USER, > ALLIN1-CORE-USER,t( >  ALLIN1-STARTER-USER, ALLIN1CLSVR-USER > 5 > Most of these licences are really seen in the wild.c > 4 > Graham (ALL-IN-1 Engineering, <Some Company Name>) >aM Glad you chipped in here, as I got confused as to what the Hobbyist licenses aK for ALL-IN-1 give us. I.e. What can we run with the following PAKs, and to u' which installation kits do they relate?d       ALLIN1-MAIL-DW-CLIENTi     ALLIN1-MAIL-SERVER     ALLIN1-MAIL-SERVER-USERl     ALLIN1-MAIL-VT-CLIENTg     ALLIN1-MAIL-VT-USERe     ALLIN1-MAIL-WAN-SERVER ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:45:41 +0100d% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri* Message-ID: <3B9E5BD5.54885306@virgin.net>   Jerry Leslie wrote:   G > If conventional news sites cannot be reached, this one has a summary:s >o  M CNN has taken all ad links off their pages (no other organization had done soeL when I last checked) so cnn.com is responding relatively well and not adding@ additional load to the net by serving up crap inappropriate ads.   >a >   http://www.airdisaster.com/g >   http://216.234.186.183/k >d: > Most high-rise buildings in Houston have been evacuated. >r > --Jerry Leslie   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:30:45 -0400y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centert, Message-ID: <3B9E665B.71DBAF67@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:oO > CNN has taken all ad links off their pages (no other organization had done sohN > when I last checked) so cnn.com is responding relatively well and not addingB > additional load to the net by serving up crap inappropriate ads.  F The few pictures still on the front page don't even seem to be served.  G Can they configure their web server to just not bother serving images ?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:41:07 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>1 Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd* Message-ID: <3B9E68D3.B529C648@virgin.net>   JF Mezei wrote:t   > Alan Greig wrote:$Q > > CNN has taken all ad links off their pages (no other organization had done so P > > when I last checked) so cnn.com is responding relatively well and not addingD > > additional load to the net by serving up crap inappropriate ads. >rH > The few pictures still on the front page don't even seem to be served. >a  S www.bbc.co.uk/news probably has the best coverage if you have problems with US newse sites.   >tI > Can they configure their web server to just not bother serving images ?n   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:54:19 GMTp. From: Burnie M <burniem.NOSPAM@ozemail.com.au> Subject: Re: World Trade Centert8 Message-ID: <7u1tptklosna7tpqj59c5s17b5777t4du2@4ax.com>  B On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:21:53 GMT, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote:  J >Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet,   The two towers of theD >World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have been attacked by suicideH >airliners.   One tower at the trade center has collapsed.  Most likely,E >thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but the tragedy is clear.  >hM >I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wonder how much presence CompaqeM >and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is a national disaster of thet3 >first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive.w >n    F Condolences to anybody who had friends in the WTC as it looks like the casualty numbers will be bad.   @ People on radio this morning are taking it very personally here.  8 This is a series of digusting acts that have no possible justification.   Burnie M Sydney, Australiai   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:36:12 -0400g0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centers/ Message-ID: <tptb1bt022cf58@news.supernews.com>t  H My extreme sympathies to all those that perished in this diabolical act.  L I am betting the US is currently planning  both covert and invasional action. against Bin Ladin's host country, Afghanistan.  J They really are an enemy of the Western world - NPR has been keeping up toD date with the misionaries who are currently being held for spreadingA Christian propaganda - that alone is enough to send in the troops   D Damn it - I hope we do - just also hope no arab works in any Nuclear2 facilities - it would not be appropriate right now   DT   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & partsc http://www.islandco.comu sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.a 2700 Gregory Streetc Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622h Fax: 912 201 0096  ICQ#: 130698221t/ john nixon <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messagen8 news:56pn7.134887$aZ.19327508@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...K > Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet,   The two towers of theeE > World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have been attacked by suicidehI > airliners.   One tower at the trade center has collapsed.  Most likely,2F > thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but the tragedy is clear. >rG > I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wonder how much presencex CompaqJ > and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is a national disaster of theo4 > first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive. >s >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:37:25 -0400H' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>B Subject: Re: World Trade Centert( Message-ID: <9nmam0$hfl$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ; "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in messagei) news:tptb1bt022cf58@news.supernews.com...g   ...   G > I am betting the US is currently planning  both covert and invasionala action0 > against Bin Ladin's host country, Afghanistan. >oL > They really are an enemy of the Western world - NPR has been keeping up toF > date with the misionaries who are currently being held for spreadingC > Christian propaganda - that alone is enough to send in the troops'  L Right:  they clearly have no right to have laws against things that would beJ legal in this country, or at least not to enforce them.  And they'd by GodB better not retaliate if we send in troops, either:  the very idea!   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:21:59 +0000 (UTC)e  From: mustang@ucc.asn.au.invalid Subject: Re: World Trade Centerc* Message-ID: <9nmgs7$f0n$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>  / Island Computers <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:dJ : My extreme sympathies to all those that perished in this diabolical act.  N : I am betting the US is currently planning  both covert and invasional action0 : against Bin Ladin's host country, Afghanistan.  L : They really are an enemy of the Western world - NPR has been keeping up toF : date with the misionaries who are currently being held for spreadingC : Christian propaganda - that alone is enough to send in the troopst  F : Damn it - I hope we do - just also hope no arab works in any Nuclear4 : facilities - it would not be appropriate right now  D Gee Dave, has your neck always been this nice bright crimson colour?   D. -- :! I don't get mad.... I get stabby.S   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:52:56 -040090 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center / Message-ID: <tptj1vft36nvb6@news.supernews.com>i  I I live in Georgia damn it - they do rub off on you after a whil eyou know+  I Actually though -I hope the US Mil. goes in some time soon to "Extradite"  Bin Ladin with total prejudice   DT   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts> http://www.islandco.coms sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.i 2700 Gregory Streety Savannah GA 31404f Tel: 912 447 6622a Fax: 912 201 00962 ICQ#: 130698221 - <mustang@ucc.asn.au.invalid> wrote in message>$ news:9nmgs7$f0n$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au...1 > Island Computers <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:|L > : My extreme sympathies to all those that perished in this diabolical act. > I > : I am betting the US is currently planning  both covert and invasionale action2 > : against Bin Ladin's host country, Afghanistan. >wK > : They really are an enemy of the Western world - NPR has been keeping upt toH > : date with the misionaries who are currently being held for spreadingE > : Christian propaganda - that alone is enough to send in the troops  > H > : Damn it - I hope we do - just also hope no arab works in any Nuclear6 > : facilities - it would not be appropriate right now >oF > Gee Dave, has your neck always been this nice bright crimson colour? >. > D. > --# > I don't get mad.... I get stabby.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.507 ************************