1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 508       Contents: Re: Big black helicopters  Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?  DECW exit problem  Re: Device names1 Does anyone use AIT2 or LTO tape drives with VMS? ( How to avoid LINK-W-MULDEF in C programs, Re: How to avoid LINK-W-MULDEF in C programs Re: HP to buy Compaq!!! 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit % Re: International Securities Exchange % RE: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange % Re: International Securities Exchange - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history? - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history? E Re: Is there a VMS command to check if I have cache memory installed? E Re: Is there a VMS command to check if I have cache memory installed? ( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? LAT PRINTERS RE: LAT PRINTERS Re: LAT PRINTERS Re: LAT PRINTERS3 Looking for Classic Oracle/VMS version matrix again  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More Alpha rubbish in print  Re: More VMS Wish List Items...  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  RE: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center 1 Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime  Protected context  Re: Protected context  Re: Protected context . Re: solaris 7 compatible with vms  in printing
 Unzip program  Re: Unzip program , Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies., Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.3 RE: Where can I get a micro-Vax with vms in the UK?  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:26:40 GMT & From: James Cownie <jcownie@etnus.com>" Subject: Re: Big black helicopters) Message-ID: <3B9F626C.8326CA30@etnus.com>    TTK, Ciar wrote:  E >   This is a function of MS's licensing.  If the OEM's only paid for F > copies of Windows that they preloaded on computers, then unless theyF > sold *mostly* non-Windows systems they would end up paying more thanG > if they simply paid by the system.  Shipping the PC with Windows does F > not create a pressure to use it, though, nor does it prevent the OEMF > from preloading a boot manager which allows the user to select among( > multiple preloaded operating systems.   @ I believe that allowing an alternate boot manager and another OSI is explicitly prevented by the M$ license which OEMs have to sign if they B want to be able to distribute machines with Windows pre-installed.  5 See http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/21410.html  for instance, which says  E   "However Microsoft OEM contracts forbid a visible dual-boot option"    -- Jim      James Cownie	<jcownie@etnus.com> Etnus, LLC.     +44 117 9071438  http://www.etnus.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:17:21 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> $ Subject: Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?) Message-ID: <3B9F2820.1CB1CB25@gtech.com>    Didier Morandi wrote: # > jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil wrote: ? > > Does any one have any info about a port of cpio to OpenVMS?  > $ > W H A T   I S   CPIO ?????????????  7 A common Unix utility. A very old Unix utility I think.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:55:50 +0100 + From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com>  Subject: DECW exit problem& Message-ID: <3b9f7503$1@pull.gecm.com>   AlphaServer DS20E, 512MBC    (OpenVMS 7.3 + all patches, DECW 1.2-6 + DECW EURO patch, TCP/IP  Services 5.1 + latest patch)  G On the server (graphic) console, logins are fine but when I select EXIT A to end the session the desktop starts to run down but the DECterm G windows remain.  I can enter logoff commands to manually close them but B the DECW login screen does not reappear.  Any ideas where to look?   TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Group  Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:29:39 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>  Subject: Re: Device names ) Message-ID: <3B9F4723.3894FE45@gtech.com>    Dave Cole wrote:N > I have an Alpha that was delivered with the operating system already loaded,M > I am now doing some reconfiguring to incorporating it into our network.   I L > have changed the node and volume names, and the node address, but the if IK > use the command "show device do", it list the disks with the pre-deliverd K > names i.e.  name$device,  I would like to change the name part of this to ! > read the same as the node name.    I think it is SYSGEN SCSNODE !   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 12 SEP 2001 14:41:29 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> : Subject: Does anyone use AIT2 or LTO tape drives with VMS?2 Message-ID: <12SEP01.14412961@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  = I have a DS10 with VMS 7.2-1.  I need to increase it's backup > capacity and was planning on purchasing a DLT8000.  One vendor> is pushing AIT2 and/or LTO both of which have higher capacity.< I was wondering if anyone had experience with VMS and either technology?   = My sincerest condolences to all those who lost friends and/or  family yesterday.    Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:55:14 -0400 . From: "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca>1 Subject: How to avoid LINK-W-MULDEF in C programs 2 Message-ID: <0ALn7.25115$Z2.341163@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  ; We have applications that are based upon mutiple c modules.   J Each of these C module makes include to record structure files.  Each willL compile to an object in its own merits.  However some or all of the programsF share the same include files. Therefore when we link we get the linkerL warning LINK-W-MULDEF.  Is it possible to remove this warning without havingK to compile all modules everytime in one big make file.  We would still like H to compile individually then link in the end.  This helps correct singleF module problems in a big application without touching the big picture.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:28:11 +0100 & From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk>5 Subject: Re: How to avoid LINK-W-MULDEF in C programs - Message-ID: <3B9F9B2B.FD6DB4E4@aerosys.co.uk>    Jerry Alan Braga wrote:  > = > We have applications that are based upon mutiple c modules.  > L > Each of these C module makes include to record structure files.  Each willN > compile to an object in its own merits.  However some or all of the programsH > share the same include files. Therefore when we link we get the linkerN > warning LINK-W-MULDEF.  Is it possible to remove this warning without havingM > to compile all modules everytime in one big make file.  We would still like J > to compile individually then link in the end.  This helps correct singleH > module problems in a big application without touching the big picture.  P 1) It's bad practice to declare data in header files. Better to cut the data out into a separate file.   P 2) Limit the scope by declaring all module common r/w data static unless there'sL a good reason not to. r/o data tables etc can be safely left global, but put6 them in a separate source file, never in header files.   Chris    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:45:04 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  Subject: Re: HP to buy Compaq!!!- Message-ID: <87elpcn6gf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   , cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:   > John Vottero wrote: > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <afeldman@gfigroup.com> wrote in message   > > > HP-VMS anyone?   > > It's now called HoPenVMS.    > With the emphasis on HoPe ?   , Perhaps, like OpenVMS, the Hope is silent...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 08:55:39 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <y4zo805250.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  , John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:  J > The moving of Macro-32 code from OpenVMS Alpha to IA64 should be easier J > in some regards (you already had to decorate your code with .CALL_ENTRY I > and .JSB_ENTRY directives for instance when moving from VAX to Alpha),  G > but harder in other ways.  How much Macro-32 code writes into R0 for  D > instance? (and for those you haven't read their IA64 architecture K > guides, R0 is a readonly register fixed as 0 much like R31 on the Alpha).   M But the mapping from the Macro-32/VAX register set to the Alpha/IA64 register M set is a compiler convention anyway - it's just one of the fiddly details you N have to decide and get right when adapting the AMACRO compiler to IMACRO. IOW, JASMOP 8-).    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:58:54 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)8 Message-ID: <t7cuptkel1k53l5n928jr8jtoh3njrroot@4ax.com>  / On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:32:44 -0400, John Reagan  <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote:    > H >Well, technically it isn't 'cross-compiled'.  It is natively compiled.   B I was thinking of the porting process. I believe the initial AlphaA porting work was carried out on a VAX cross-compilng for Alpha. I F would guess the initial Itanium work involves cross-compiling on AlphaA with IA64 as the target. Agreed that the finished product running ; natively and producing native code is not a cross-compiler.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 12 Sep 01 08:06:18 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <3ftrptcknbs4imrdjlds860a8s5tr454f7@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: 9 >On Tue, 11 Sep 01 08:02:33 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >  >  >>F >>You are assuming that the writers (VMS) are still around.  Are they? > ; >Well obviously the oft mentioned Dave Cutler isn't there.    ? I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't - a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.   6 I'm asking about the doc writers, not the programmers.   > ...He's atD >Microsoft as are many other former DEC engineers. But enough of theF >remaining senior engineers (including a couple that go back to VMS V1C >I believe) have said  that they expect to be able to complete this F >port on time (if allowed) and I believe them. It would have helped ifD >Compaq hadn't just sold all of its compilers teams (including BLISSF >technology) to Intel as they must work closely on any porting project >but that's a done deal now.    > That's cute.  They gave away their seed corn.  How in the hell> do you do monitor development when the tools are controlled by another company!!!!!!   ; This further confirms my gut feel that Compaq knows nothing * about operating system development basics.   > F >Porting from Alpha to IA64 shouldn't require anything like the effortD >needed for the VAX to Alpha port.  You might be amused to know thatF >much of VMS is still written in Macro-32 which then is cross-compiled >to Alpha and soon IA64..   * <ahem>  JMF did quite a bit of Alpha work.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:27:59 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)( Message-ID: <9no2c4$37v$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net...: > In article <3ftrptcknbs4imrdjlds860a8s5tr454f7@4ax.com>,+ >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: ; > >On Tue, 11 Sep 01 08:02:33 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > >  > >  > >>H > >>You are assuming that the writers (VMS) are still around.  Are they? > > < > >Well obviously the oft mentioned Dave Cutler isn't there. > A > I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't / > a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.   % One out of three isn't all that good.   F Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significantJ portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing thatL release's successful creation (even though his management style could take a toll on others).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:50:11 +0200 , From: "Martin Nisshagen" <martin_xp@msn.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)4 Message-ID: <9no3r3$8t5h0$1@ID-69429.news.dfncis.de>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net...  A : I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't / : a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.   P Regardless how many times you repeat things for yourself it's quite obvious that= someone at AOL hasn't the slightest clue what he talks about.   
 Best regards,    m a r t i n | x p    -- Martin Nisshagen martin_xp@msn.com  http://communities.msn.com/wxp   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:24:24 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitH Message-ID: <y4iteo50t3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   K > > Statements in Anaheim are that under SEC rules he could _not_.  The two L > > companies must continue to compete.  A Tandem speaker was even unwillingG > If that's the case just what exactly can the pre-merger team do then?   M I suppose they can work internally, but they aren't allowed to interfere with < day-to-day operations or communicate their plans publically.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:01:24 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit8 Message-ID: <hgcupt8dvue7gihhk9nfvshc57bgl3m1nc@4ax.com>  . On 12 Sep 2001 09:24:24 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  ( >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >rL >> > Statements in Anaheim are that under SEC rules he could _not_.  The twoM >> > companies must continue to compete.  A Tandem speaker was even unwillingsH >> If that's the case just what exactly can the pre-merger team do then? >oN >I suppose they can work internally, but they aren't allowed to interfere with= >day-to-day operations or communicate their plans publically.i  ; I wonder what the case would be if you could prove that the C anti-competitive action of terminating Alpha was a pre-condition ofhC the HP offer. Certainly sounds as if US  rules might have made thisa5 problematical *after* the announcement. Smells to me.)   >	Jan    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:02:26 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit8 Message-ID: <9kcuptov0nop8lijd7ljiehlmqdf10rdch@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:23:15 GMT, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote:     C >Um.  How could he have spoken on behalf of the merger team when it ? >doesn't exist at the time of his memo?  Don't they have to getmD >together, hash out details, and get consensus on a plan before they+ >can communicate their positions and plans?t  = Didn't it? I thought Carly said it was effective immediately.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:14:33 GMTp  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit8 Message-ID: <n3rupt4r9d0bj1ue1132toto49q79dqurm@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:02:26 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:  D >On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:23:15 GMT, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote: >  > D >>Um.  How could he have spoken on behalf of the merger team when it@ >>doesn't exist at the time of his memo?  Don't they have to getE >>together, hash out details, and get consensus on a plan before theyu, >>can communicate their positions and plans? >s> >Didn't it? I thought Carly said it was effective immediately.  E That doesn't mean that they have actually met and decided anything ofhC importance.  Also, as others have mentioned, there may be SEC rules E that prevent a lot of activity/communication until the merger is OKd.N   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:11:10 GMTp. From: "Duane Sand" <duane.sand@mindspring.com>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit= Message-ID: <OGMn7.3198$L%5.2434841@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>y   > > > someone wrote:J > >> > Statements in Anaheim are that under SEC rules he could _not_.  The twotE > >> > companies must continue to compete.  A Tandem speaker was evenj	 unwillingt  * > >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:J > >> If that's the case just what exactly can the pre-merger team do then? > >  > Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:K > >I suppose they can work internally, but they aren't allowed to interfereg with? > >day-to-day operations or communicate their plans publically.   ' "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wroter= > I wonder what the case would be if you could prove that the E > anti-competitive action of terminating Alpha was a pre-condition ofcE > the HP offer. Certainly sounds as if US  rules might have made thist7 > problematical *after* the announcement. Smells to me.s   Alan,o< Your quotes from Winkler's January speech at Compaq's annual: meeting with stock analysts show that Winkler and Capellas: had already determined by January that NSK Himalaya's port7 to Alpha was to be ended and replaced by a port to IPF.r< (5 months before they bothered to tell anyone in the porting< team or any of its mgmt chain.)  That change in target would9 only make business sense if they had already decided theyg9 would not be funding at least 10 more years of Alpha chipt< development.  (2 years to complete & ship the NSK port, plus? at least 8 years to amortize NSK customers' migration efforts.)a= I.e. no more Alpha chips after EV9, if not earlier.   Winkler 9 apparently was confident enough about this decision being 9 a done deal that he (totally unnecessarily) mentioned then5 NSK aspect of it to analysts at that January meeting.g  = I think they expected back then to be announcing a broad deald; with Intel within a month or two.  This was 5 months beforea< Fiorina and Capellas began discussions of adding a rebranded: HP-UX IPF machine to Compaq's server product portfolio for; more complete coverage in the commercial datacenter market.   < The Intel deal took many more months to finalize than Compaq? initially expected.  At Intel lawyers' insistence, they decidedl< to go stealthy until the deal was fully detailed and signed.C Luckily, they were able to stuff most of the cat back into the bag. ? None of the analysts understood the import of Winkler's January ; NSK-->IPF statement.  You (Alan) understood it and reportedy< it on comp.os.vms, but this merely added a little fuel to an5 already noisy discussion of VMS futures. Folks in NSKl; development missed that statement entirely. It appears thate5 Shannon did not catch on or believe the implications.A: It appears that no large Alpha customers took notice then.  = The timeline is inconsistent with Fiorina forcing a reluctanth6 Compaq to jump off the Digital Alpha boat.  Compaq was= already eagerly jumping.  At most, Fiorina didn't try to push 6 Compaq back onto an Alpha-forever plan, and did invite7 a now ring-free Compaq to sit with HP at the big end of  the stately IPF boat.l  5 Winkler's gaffe in pre-announcing the NSK redirectionc; could now be a good thing, serving as public proof that thee7 eventual demise of Alpha was already certain before ther9 HP dalliance began, even if we all didn't believe it yet.a  *  ---  Duane Sand, not speaking for Compaq.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:18:22 +0100s0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange* Message-ID: <3B9F447E.E96F007A@uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:. >  > John Saunders wrote:F > > "Quite some time"? Did they have offices in one of the two towers? > O > Yep. I beleive that ISE was housed in the WTC. (Or perhaps another exchange).iK > During the WTC bombing a few years ago, they pressured the authorities tonO > allow them to re-open before the building was again accessible to the public.o > P > I know that Deutche Bank (formerly Banker's trust) is also houses next door toM > the WTC, and I would assume that this building was also partly destroyed asj% > would buildings all around the WTC.p > L > Disaster recovery plans will be going on full blast. The main data centresP > might be offsite, but consider all the ifnormation stored in all those "local"L > wintel servers in offices. I doubt that many of them are backup up on to aP > different site. (this may not affect retail banking, but non-retail operations > owuld be quite affected.    C Deutsche Bank also had offices in the tower along with a number of r other investment banks.   E As to DR, it may be usefull but if you have lost a large part of yourcF workforce then being able to get access to your data isn't necessarely the highest priority.g     Regards  Andrew Harrisoni Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:12:35 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t. Subject: RE: International Securities Exchange9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEJBDEAA.tom@kednos.com>d  ( I think Deutsche Bank owned the building   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]a- > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:18 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comw0 > Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange >  >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:  > >  > > John Saunders wrote:H > > > "Quite some time"? Did they have offices in one of the two towers? > > ? > > Yep. I beleive that ISE was housed in the WTC. (Or perhaps   > another exchange).? > > During the WTC bombing a few years ago, they pressured the p > authorities toC > > allow them to re-open before the building was again accessible T > to the public. > > ? > > I know that Deutche Bank (formerly Banker's trust) is also - > houses next door to C > > the WTC, and I would assume that this building was also partly u > destroyed as' > > would buildings all around the WTC.i > > B > > Disaster recovery plans will be going on full blast. The main  > data centresA > > might be offsite, but consider all the ifnormation stored in u > all those "local"iD > > wintel servers in offices. I doubt that many of them are backup  > up on to a= > > different site. (this may not affect retail banking, but u > non-retail operationsi > > owuld be quite affected. >  > E > Deutsche Bank also had offices in the tower along with a number of n > other investment banks.  > G > As to DR, it may be usefull but if you have lost a large part of yourcH > workforce then being able to get access to your data isn't necessarely > the highest priority.  >  > 
 > Regards  > Andrew Harrisony > Enterprise IT Architecta >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:40:07 -0600h( From: emanuel stiebler <emu@ecubics.com>. Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange+ Message-ID: <3B9F65B7.4E22D912@ecubics.com>o   Tom Linden wrote:o > * > I think Deutsche Bank owned the building > H AFAIRC, they tried to buy it. But they were not allowed to put a DB logo on it, so they gave up ;-)E   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:09:05 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) . Subject: Re: International Securities Exchange3 Message-ID: <0HgnKYjg83hT@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  ] In article <3B9F447E.E96F007A@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:a  Q >> I know that Deutche Bank (formerly Banker's trust) is also houses next door toTN >> the WTC, and I would assume that this building was also partly destroyed as& >> would buildings all around the WTC.  G I met a fellow from Deutche Bank here today who said that was the case.   E > Deutsche Bank also had offices in the tower along with a number of   > other investment banks.  > G > As to DR, it may be usefull but if you have lost a large part of your:H > workforce then being able to get access to your data isn't necessarely > the highest priority.T  F He has no office after the DECUS Symposium ends.  He did _not_ mentionH human casualties and TV news coverage has certainly shown lots of people evacuating.   D He _did_ say their disaster tolerant VMS Cluster kept running at the alternate site.T   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:40:02 +0200n= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>e6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?) Message-ID: <3B9F4992.D3A33715@gtech.com>a   Bill Todd wrote:H > The Inquirer has some new articles today which have been cited in someB > comp.os.vms discussion, but a major point hasn't surfaced there: > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/10090107.htmg > N > He said: "Following typical Compaq strategy ("Software is something partnersK > do.") the initial talks with HP were concerning Compaq licensing HP-UX asoL > their high-end UNIX for the Itanium platform, rather than continuing theirM > own port. Even if the acquisition falls through, these plans will continue.o  E I think nobody can imagine HP porting two high-end commercial Unix'es- to Itanium.-   It does not make sense.   ' HP-UX is already ported. Tru64 are not.m( HP bougth Compaq. Compaq did not nuy HP.   The conclusion is obvious.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:23:22 -0400c' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?( Message-ID: <9no5jv$adv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message # news:3B9F4992.D3A33715@gtech.com...h   ...t  G > I think nobody can imagine HP porting two high-end commercial Unix'ese
 > to Itanium.e >M > It does not make sense.m >g) > HP-UX is already ported. Tru64 are not. * > HP bougth Compaq. Compaq did not nuy HP. >i > The conclusion is obvious.  E Except that HP's statement that it would honor all the aspects of thehL arrangement Compaq made with Intel (which included the Tru64 port to Itanic) seemed to indicate otherwise.p   - bill   >t > Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:08:25 +0200M= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>aN Subject: Re: Is there a VMS command to check if I have cache memory installed?) Message-ID: <3B9F2608.15B8A295@gtech.com>    Dirk Munk wrote: > David Spencer wrote:K > > I have a PWS 600au running VMS 7.2-1. I've recently become aware of the K > > fact that I might be able to get better performance if I installed somenG > > cache memory. The problem is, I'm not sure if I _already_ have somen > > cache in there.f > > J > > The machine is in production at a remote location. I'm reluctant to goH > > there, shut it down and open the box just to check for it if there'sB > > some DCL command or somesuch that I could enter to just let me	 > > know.s > >sF > > Is there indeed any VMS command to display the status of any cache > > memory?S  K > Not that I know of. But AFAIK you can not run VMS on a PWS if there is no,H > cache memory installed. However you still have to find out how much is2 > installed, because there were 2 sizes available.   ????  8 Cache should be 100% transparent to OS and applications.  7 The only result of no cache should be poor performance.u   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:07:13 +0200-= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>-N Subject: Re: Is there a VMS command to check if I have cache memory installed?) Message-ID: <3B9F25C1.25122010@gtech.com>    Howard S Shubs wrote:-@ > In article <300820011839025360%spencer@spaamfree.recneps.com>,7 >  David Spencer <spencer@spaamfree.recneps.com> wrote::F > > Is there indeed any VMS command to display the status of any cache > > memory?a > 1 > I would think that SHOW MEMORY would do it, no?m  3 That can show about memory used as cache by the OS.o  4 It does not show if there are hardware cache for the RAM in the system.   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:45:46 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???eH Message-ID: <y4ae004zth.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  2 sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) writes:  / > IN fact for any netscape you need javascript.l  M I can never understand this infatuation with javascript for almost all pages,1I and certainly not for pages that are almost all information-only. I quiteeN agree with Larry on this issue. The only thing that is worse is the insistenceH on cookies where they serve no useful purpose (from my point of view, of	 course). d   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:09:12 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? 8 Message-ID: <765uptcecp8jbq0gfg9hlgatl6hd1n8fon@4ax.com>  D On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:59:59 GMT, sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) wrote:   >re: www.openvms.compaq.come >1? >It was down much longer than I expected to do the change over.n  C Why the hell isn't this system a cluster? It was when it first wentD> online. If Compaq can't provide the resources for a cluster toE demonstrate a web server which can stay up while rolling upgrades etcs9 are performed then I feel sicker than I already do today.a  D >the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand.  D What the hell for. Just so you can redesign it with the new HP brand@ in a few months? Don't Compaq have better things to spend scarceF resources on? Oh sorry I forgot. Fluff not substance is what Compaq is
 all about.  5 >there is new left nav available on almost every page K >The server has been upgraded/dated from OpenVMS 6.2, Purveyor 2.x, UCX 4.2A$ >to OpenVMS 7.3, CSWS 1.x, TCPIP 5.1  F Congrats on finally upgrading but.... server singular is wrong. It wasF a cluster once and should be again. Sorry Warren but I don't find such a long downtime acceptable.   E Compaq: So poor and so incompetent we can't even keep out own serverse online.   % VMS: Nothing stops it. Except Compaq.t   >t= >I've re-written all the cgi scripts, [hopefully they work], t >cN >As for content that is the next step. I wanted to brute force the new design. >kM >As for shortcomings. 1) NS 3.03 doesn't do style sheets or background imagesoP >in tables. I've tried to fix it so you can see the stuff but javascript has to  >be on.e >aN >IN fact for any netscape you need javascript. There is a bug in Mozilla that M >causes background images to not show. I've heard that it's fixed in the nexta
 >release.  >nR >For PC based netscape for some reason if you turn off javscript then style sheets# >get turned off. I don't know why..0 > R >As for the visited links. Folks in Houston have gotten the message and the 'gray'? >visted links will become some other color when they pick one. r >@0 >If you find any quirks or problems let me know. >j+ >My open list still contains the fact that l >eS >ftp://www.openvms.compaq.com doesn't work correctly (it didn't in purveyor either) H >ftp to ftp.openvms.compaq.com is broken. You can get in and see the topN >level of the freeware directory but you can 'cd' down. It used to work so itsO >some 4.2 to 5.1 issue. Then again FTP archives w/vms have always been a hassle- >-J >If you find any non-ftp related problems please send mail to me, use the Q >'contact us' on the web page or send mail to openvms-info#compaq.com (fix the #)  >s >-warren   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:13:16 +0010G% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.auO1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???o5 Message-ID: <01K89DU1ESUQ0052SH@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Jan,  3 >sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) writes:m >f0 >> IN fact for any netscape you need javascript. >oH >I can never understand this infatuation with javascript for almost all  pages,J >and certainly not for pages that are almost all information-only. I quiteE >agree with Larry on this issue. The only thing that is worse is the n >insistencemI >on cookies where they serve no useful purpose (from my point of view, ofe
 >course).   G From my Alpha box, I run with an old (28-FEB-1998) version of Netscape.-  J I can access most things that I want but do have to click on various Java F complaint boxes popping up.  I do not have Java installed on my Alpha.  N I avoid cookies (why do I need them?) by having an empty COOKIES.;1 file with  protection (R,R,,).   ( My life on the Internet is fairly happy.   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:56:58 -0400k; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>>1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? $ Message-ID: <3b9f69a6$1@news.si.com>  / >IN fact for any netscape you need javascript. o  < That's why I'm using Lynx, and it seems to work well enough. -- -A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comiA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comf= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventa< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 12:03:43 -05001 From: Graham Allan <allan@physics.umn.edu.nospam>t1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???l/ Message-ID: <w53vgiopci8.fsf@crail.spa.umn.edu>m  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r  F > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:59:59 GMT, sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren > Sander) wrote: > F > >the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand. > F > What the hell for. Just so you can redesign it with the new HP brandB > in a few months? Don't Compaq have better things to spend scarceH > resources on? Oh sorry I forgot. Fluff not substance is what Compaq is > all about.  A No point ranting at Warren... it was no doubt some kind of CompaqeE management edict. Probably goes the same for use of javascript et al.h   Graham -- cI -------------------------------------------------------------------------i Graham Allan9 School of Physics and Astronomy - University of MinnesotaiI -------------------------------------------------------------------------e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:31:07 -0400 0 From: "Virginia Flores" <virginiaflores@msn.com> Subject: LAT PRINTERSt5 Message-ID: <F69fIdwA7Ix8qZnlhae0000a1d4@hotmail.com>s  * <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <DIV>e <DIV>Hi all:</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>o<DIV>I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on schedule, I'm trying to get some extra work done.&nbsp; I am working on a VERY old VAX 4000 series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the client wants to re-configure for LAT.&nbsp; Since the last time I configured a LAT printer was 8 years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right direction would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>ih <DIV>I can get into the LAT console, and I can create a port.&nbsp; My memory fails me after that.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> @ <DIV>Thanks in advance and hope everyone is holding up OK,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>q <DIV>-Virginia Flores</DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></html>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:16:52 -0400 > From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com> Subject: RE: LAT PRINTERStM Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D01602376@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>e  - I think you will find all the info you need,  * without me trying to rehash in a post, if , you use a search engine like www.google.com 4 and search comp.os.vms with the terms "LAT printer".   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 BroadwayA Albany, NY  12204M USAw 518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.comi  ) I post personal opinion only, and all thef* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my) views in no way represent my employer(s).a+ One should also take note of the Electronics) Communications Privacy Act of 1986, whichi+ imposes civil and criminal liability on any ( person who intentionally intercepts "any( wire, oral or electronic communication."   -----Original Message-----5 From: Virginia Flores [mailto:virginiaflores@msn.com]l, Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:31 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como Subject: LAT PRINTERSm     Hi all:r  I I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on schedule, I'm"H trying to get some extra work done.  I am working on a VERY old VAX 4000D series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the client wants toK re-configure for LAT.  Since the last time I configured a LAT printer was 8dF years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right direction would be helpful.  L I can get into the LAT console, and I can create a port.  My memory fails me after that.o  5 Thanks in advance and hope everyone is holding up OK,r   -Virginia Flores      A Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:04:58 +0200eC From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Schelbaum?= <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>D Subject: Re: LAT PRINTERSDG Message-ID: <3b9f9504$0$23016$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>-  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C13BBD.D13A4840n Content-Type: text/plain;: 	charset="iso-8859-1"M+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablec    E   "Virginia Flores" <virginiaflores@msn.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag =r/ news:F69fIdwA7Ix8qZnlhae0000a1d4@hotmail.com...c	   Hi all:f  I   I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on schedule, =rI I'm trying to get some extra work done.  I am working on a VERY old VAX =oH 4000 series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the client wants =J to re-configure for LAT.  Since the last time I configured a LAT printer =E was 8 years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right direction =t would be helpful.d  G   I can get into the LAT console, and I can create a port.  My memory =o fails me after that.  7   Thanks in advance and hope everyone is holding up OK,n     -Virginia Flores    J -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----uC   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.coma       Hi!a  G   I gues that you already have mapped the LAT-port to the appropriate =aG server and port (set port ltaxx/application/node=3D(LAtT-Server-Name) =  /port=3D(port-name))    next connect to the LAT-server@   Make sure that the server and the port have the name you are =" referenceing in the above command.F   Set the port mode to "printer" or "queued" (ore something like that)@   Adjust speed, parity, flow control as required by your printerI   Don't forget to save your settings in the server permanent memory (if =- applicable)-  G   For a first test you should now be able to copy a plain textfile to =b LTAx:>  G   Back on DCL set the LT-Device "spooled" an init and start the queue =2 with /proc=3DLATSYM      That should do the trick!n     Good luck!  	   regardsl     Ren=E9 Schelbaum   Datakom Austria GesmbH  + ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C13BBD.D13A4840t Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"-+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablei  > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>7 <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =g charset=3Diso-8859-1">9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>s <STYLE></STYLE>  </HEAD>o <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>4 <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20C style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =b3 BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">e"   <DIV>"Virginia Flores" &lt;<A=20I   href=3D"mailto:virginiaflores@msn.com">virginiaflores@msn.com</A>&gt; =a
 schrieb im=20    Newsbeitrag <A=20s   = J href=3D"news:F69fIdwA7Ix8qZnlhae0000a1d4@hotmail.com">news:F69fIdwA7Ix8qZ=& nlhae0000a1d4@hotmail.com</A>...</DIV>   <DIV>    <DIV>t   <DIV>e   <DIV>Hi all:</DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>fD   <DIV>I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on = schedule, I'm=20H   trying to get some extra work done.&nbsp; I am working on a VERY old = VAX 4000=20eI   series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the client wants to=20-F   re-configure for LAT.&nbsp; Since the last time I configured a LAT = printer was=20I   8 years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right direction would =n be=20    helpful.</DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>5J   <DIV>I can get into the LAT console, and I can create a port.&nbsp; My =	 memory=20    fails me after that.</DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> B   <DIV>Thanks in advance and hope everyone is holding up OK,</DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> /   <DIV>-Virginia Flores</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>t   <DIV><BR clear=3Dall>s   <HR>1   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A=20lH   href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR></DIV>6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>3   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi!</FONT></DIV>h6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>H   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I gues that you already have mapped = the LAT-port=20n1   to the appropriate server and port (set port=20h/   ltaxx/application/node=3D(LAtT-Server-Name) =-! /port=3D(port-name))</FONT></DIV>e8   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>next connect to the = LAT-server</FONT></DIV>hF   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Make sure that the server and the = port have the=20C   name you are&nbsp;referenceing in the above command.</FONT></DIV>7I   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Set the port&nbsp;mode to "printer"=20hA   or&nbsp;"queued"</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(ore =n something like=20s   that)</FONT></DIV>J   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Adjust speed, parity, flow control as = required by=20   your printer</FONT></DIV>aJ   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don't forget to save your settings in =
 the server=20d/   permanent memory (if applicable)</FONT></DIV>h6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>G   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For a first test you should now be =5 able to copy a=20r&   plain textfile to LTAx:</FONT></DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>oB   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Back on DCL set the LT-Device = "spooled" an init=206   and start the queue with /proc=3DLATSYM</FONT></DIV>6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>7   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That should do the =a trick!</FONT></DIV>m6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>   <DIV> :   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good luck!</FONT></DIV><   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>7   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>regards</FONT></DIV>f6   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>@   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ren=E9 Schelbaum</FONT></DIV>5   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Datakom Austria=20y. GesmbH</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>  - ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C13BBD.D13A4840--y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:14:52 -0400c# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: LAT PRINTERS%+ Message-ID: <3B9F980C.6780A5D5@hsc.vcu.edu>n  + What version LAT and or VMS are you all at?e  C I have a complete setup for vms 5.5-2 and latmaster(?) (it's been a1
 while)....   Jimm   Virginia Flores wrote: > 	 > Hi all:j > G > I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on schedule,eE > I'm trying to get some extra work done.  I am working on a VERY olddF > VAX 4000 series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the clientH > wants to re-configure for LAT.  Since the last time I configured a LATC > printer was 8 years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right  > direction would be helpful.  > E > I can get into the LAT console, and I can create a port.  My memoryc > fails me after that. > 7 > Thanks in advance and hope everyone is holding up OK,s >  > -Virginia Flores > H > ----------------------------------------------------------------------C > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.comI   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:01:39 -0400n- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>s< Subject: Looking for Classic Oracle/VMS version matrix again2 Message-ID: <hVJn7.25101$Z2.340133@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  ' > From: Alan Greig (a.greig@virgin.net)lF > Subject: Re: Sort of off topic but: How do I find VMS information at > www.oracle.com > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmss6 > View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format > Date: 2001-05-17 07:53:07 PSTe >  >p4 > On Wed, 16 May 2001 14:06:26 -0400, "Peter Weaver"! > <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote:a > E > >Can anyone else who has been down this road before please tell me;a > >j3 > >     Starting from www.oracle.com how do I find;gF > >         1. The current version of Oracle Classic that runs on VMS?D > >         2. What versions of Oracle Classic are supported on VMS?> > >         3. The matrix of VMS versions vs. Oracle Versions?I > >         4. Anything about OPS on VMS (I found a lot of information ont OPSt( > >on NT, but nothing about OPS on VMS!)= > >         5. Anything about RDB (I know I can jump right toeG > >www.oracle.com/rdb, but how does someone get there who does not known that?) >kD > partner.oracle.com then click on "Learn about  platform technologyD > partnerships" then you can enter "Digital Alpha OpenVMS" (or VAX).E > All of the Oracle classic info you are looking for is there". Don'ttG > worry about your search engine problem as these pages are not indexedb > for some reason. >s >l7 > >Please Keep in mind that clicking on SEARCH gives meeJ > >"javascript:document.SearchForm.submit(); The page cannot be displayed" orL > >"use_query_html.submit_query_input: PROCEDURE DOESN'T EXIST" depending on( > >what page I hit the search button on. > >s > >nJ > >I know I have asked for this type of information before and I am alwaysK > >given the answers to the questions I am looking for, but please; someone I > >teach me how I can find the information myself so I do not need to askeH > >again. Everytime I need to find this information it is an exercise inL > >frustration trying to figure this stuff out. Questions sent via the "SendK > >your Comments" go unanswered (actually, come to think of it - a questiona IsI > >sent to a Compaq Webmaster through their "Contact Us" page has not yet  been > >answered after two days). > >e > >v > >p > >e > >  > >  >M > -- > Alan  J One of the people I work with was pulling his hair out this morning tryingJ to find out what version of Oracle is supported on VMS, i.e. do we upgrade% Oracle then VMS or VMS then Oracle...f  L I said, "no problem, I hit this before and have the instructions printed andL posted on my wall. Here you go." Thirty minutes later we are both frustrated8 and confused, can anyone point us to a web page on this?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:03:48 +0200/= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>r( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3B9F24F4.C0354BC9@gtech.com>t   andrew harrison wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > andrew harrison wrote: > > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > > andrew harrison wrote:C > > > > > According to the latest windows survey StarOffice now hasp? > > > > > 15% of the Office market ahead of Corel and Lotus butb > > > > > behind MS Office.- > > > >a > > > > URL please ? > > >r1 > > > It was a poll done by Windows 2000 magazine  > > >eJ > > > http://www.win2000mag.com/Poll/Index.cfm?QID=198&Action=PreviousPoll > > >:I > > > Obviously it is only based on their magazine/web readers responses.a > >.F > > 1284 readers of a magazine that (based on the headlines) is ratherC > > technical does not sound as a good indicator for how the officen > > application  > > market in general are. > >f > @ > As I said its only based on their readers responses, now where: > is the URL for the OpenVMS is the bestest OS based on an7 > online poll with rather less than 1284 responses ????o   Never seen one.y  G You may be reffering to a poll where system-administrators rated OS'es.   And VMS got outstanding ratings.  3 The only thing you can deduct from that is that VMSn system-administratorsaH are very happy with VMS. And you do need a poll to know that - just read% comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX for a few days !o  8 You introduced a questionable poll in a discussion about) marketshares for the total office market.n   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:41:59 +0100 0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3B9F5817.C233CBD@uk.sun.com>p   Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > =D   > andrew harrison wrote: > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > > > andrew harrison wrote: > > > > Arne Vajh=F8j wrote:  > > > > > andrew harrison wrote:E > > > > > > According to the latest windows survey StarOffice now hasmA > > > > > > 15% of the Office market ahead of Corel and Lotus but2 > > > > > > behind MS Office.d	 > > > > >i > > > > > URL please ? > > > >I3 > > > > It was a poll done by Windows 2000 magazineT > > > >oJ > > > > http://www.win2000mag.com/Poll/Index.cfm?QID=3D198&Action=3DPrevi= ousPollS > > > >2J > > > > Obviously it is only based on their magazine/web readers response= s. > > >pH > > > 1284 readers of a magazine that (based on the headlines) is ratherE > > > technical does not sound as a good indicator for how the office0 > > > applicationd > > > market in general are. > > >d > >rB > > As I said its only based on their readers responses, now where< > > is the URL for the OpenVMS is the bestest OS based on an9 > > online poll with rather less than 1284 responses ????  > =b   > Never seen one.  > =e  J > You may be reffering to a poll where system-administrators rated OS'es.=  " > And VMS got outstanding ratings. > =   5 > The only thing you can deduct from that is that VMSr > system-administratorsuJ > are very happy with VMS. And you do need a poll to know that - just rea= d-' > comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX for a few days !h > =l  : > You introduced a questionable poll in a discussion about+ > marketshares for the total office market.- > =-    0 Quite and I was sensible enough to say that it =  . was only based on the readers of the magazine.  . Perhaps you could explain why the StarOffice =  , poll is any different to the poll that VMS =  - systems administrators responded to. On the ='  - face of it the StarOffice poll is much easierI. to justify since it is quantative unlike the =  . systems admin poll which was mostly qualative.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  Enterprise IT Architectk   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:44:44 -0400 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>&( Subject: Re: More VMS Wish List Items...< Message-ID: <howard-612047.07443912092001@enews.newsguy.com>  - In article <11SEP200121522581@gerg.tamu.edu>,b)  carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:s  K > And in order to get them, especially f$qio, you naturally need to be able&) > to do eveeeent flags and ASTs in DCL...p  N Yup, and while yer at it, you'll need a number of other system services, such ( as f$assign()/f$dassgn(), f$waitfr() ... -- R Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:14:42 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <0l7uptkfe8j09seau13425vqi4lipq8635@4ax.com>  D On 11 Sep 2001 23:32:07 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  E [Warning. Extreme views about religion follow. Skip this if you might," be offended. You have been warned]   >I= >	Much of the hatred is manufactured by religious extremists.   D I see most (if not all) organized religion as a form of brain damageB imposed on impressionable young (or vulnerable) minds. Note I said> "organized religion'. Once that damage is imposed to cognitive@ functioning early on by imposing belief in illogical and unsoundD reasoning the adult mind can be convinced of anything. Undoing it isD close to impossible as the degree of damage is such that the victims> see nothing wrong with themselves and are convinced that it isD everyone else that is screwed up and to avoid the conflicting inputsB of rationality they must destroy the sources (ie people) trying to insert alternative views.l  ? The degree of brain damage varies but Christianity has not beennB immune. Catholics and Protestant violence, murder, bombings etc inC Northern Ireland (mostly financed by clueless US citizens remember) A demonstrate how brain damage and stupidity can bring even western A countries down if allowed to run unchecked. In this case with theaF great help of incredibly stupid British foreign policy for a very longD time. Have you ever heard the Reverend Ian Paisley (leader of the soA called Democratic Unionist Party (protestant) in Northern IrelandaF speak? Even in Scotland we have religious hatred between supporters of? the two main Glasgow football teams - Rangers (Prot) and Celtice0 (Cath). Almost unbelievable in this day and age.     >s; >http://www.barnabasfund.org/nigeria%20petition/update1.htm  >1P >"The Muslim methods were brutal. Many Christians were deliberately burnt alive.O >Others were hacked to death with machetes or killed with poisoned arrows. TheyeP >were shot. Their throats were slit. They were beheaded. Men, women and childrenM >were shown no pity. "Our people have been shot, butchered and roasted," saidsG >Josiah Fearon, the Anglican bishop of Kaduna. The most vulnerable were $ >Christians living in Muslim areas." >i >eB >	You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christians  E Never heard of the Crusades? No wonder you understand nothing. Or forc: that matter US fundamentalist attacks on abortion clinics.  ( >	as it is not supported by their faith.  B Attacks against Christians are not supported by The Koran (and yesA I've read it along with The Bible, Book of Mormon etc). The Koran A urges Muslims to respect "People of The Book" The Book being "The ? Bible" (from the Greek word for book). People of The Book being @ Christians and Jews. Much of the content of the Koran is closelyF related to the Bible. Hey and Jesus is in it so you might want to take a look.    >-B >	I heard first hand about similar acts as those above.  What alsoC >	happens is that extremists spread lies about America.  We are all C >	"Christians" is what Nigerians are told.  That we are vicious andhA >	all sorts of other stories.  Fortunately, enough Nigerians come3B >	to this country and go home to tell their fellow countrymen what? >	a great place this is.  That is what the two Nigerians we hadeA >	over on Sunday said.  They know this country is great, and they  >	are very excited to be here.  D Dear oh dear you sound like a copy of the Plain Truth or Watchtower.  M >John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father  >but by me." >eM >Matthew 25:31-32 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels O >with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be2K >gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as ae- >shepherd separates the sheep and the goats."   @ Yes I'm really looking forward to praising an insane God for all	 eternity.;  F There only ever was one Christian. And they crucified him. If anything you follow Paulianity.  F And let's not forget  Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Jews all share theE same God and kill each other in that God's name. A God who supposedlytE created us with the free-will to do this and then sits back like someE0 kind of sick psychopath watching the blood flow.  F Sorry Rob but you are being brainwashed into insanity and your logicalD reasoning is clearly suffering. Now do I need help or am I a tool of Satan?   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:29:36 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>&( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <r3aupt0obol0flosivutm8lq9kgv79r8p3@4ax.com>  6 On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:49:09 -0400, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:   >e@ >christianity. (as Xionism includes the same God, then that too)M >Allah is, in their eyes, the All-Giving Ominpotent, Omnipresence, Onmiscient   C Allah is the same God as Christians and Jews worship I'm afraid. To2? the Muslims we are the ones who have fallen from the true path.   K >eye in the sky, and as far as they are concerned, if you're not a followerLM >of their Supreme Leader, then their attitude is "die you non-muslim basterd"i  E Ok, I;'ll remember to take my AK47 with me next time I visit my localI: muslim run corner shop just in case he decides to kill me.  M >They will exercise this attitude everywhere as well; not just in the USA buta; >the UK (remember Salman Rushti) and in other G8 countries.D  C Remember The Reverend Ian Paisley? You're from the UK after all. HeDD claims all Catholics represent the anti-christ and the Pope is SatanF himself. Then there's the Jewish religious leader who recently claimed6 that it was the duty of all true Jews to kill Muslims.   >; >As for the Muslim religion.G >Christianity (and I am actually an Agnostic) propogates good will unto>8 >fellow man (whomever he be) - even if they are Muslims.  + So does the Koran if you bother to read it.   K >The fundamentals of the Muslim religion are only guerrish and based around(- >very specific actions towards ANY non MuslimT  	 Nonsense.D  K >The Koran is basically a bible de mort  to other Nationalities and creeds, M >and should be considered as such when the Western world starts defending itsv% >shores (hopefully better than today)i >iL >As for anyone believing that "America asked for it" - Well... I don't think@ >so - no citizen of any country should have to put up with this.G >America has been good to me ( I am a limey who is lucky enough to liveIJ >here - and have done for 13 years by choice). Along with the countries ofL >Northern Europe, I can say that free society (i.e. countries where I am notI >forced to pray 5 times a day or flogged for my disbeliefs) is the better  >choice for man-kind  D Christianity until a few hundred years ago (and still in many sects)F practiced this as well. Worse in fact. But "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition".    >- >lG >My thoughts - and hopefully those of pretty much everyone else in thisc >newsgroup.e  E Nowhere near mine. Stupidity like the above will never begin to solvehF the problem. Sorry David. From all my dealings with you previously you> have seemed a decent and honest individual but on this you are dangerously wrong. r     -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:52:22 +0000 (UTC)O' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9nnep6$r7f$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>=  j In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911125111.04122c38@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:) >At 12:43 PM 9/11/2001, Alan Greig wrote:> >>Andrew Robert wrote: >>K >> > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminatedH, >> > in the most aggressive manner possible. >> > >>O >>But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently genuinely J >>believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should beJ >>eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this so" >>absolutely they will die for it. >-H >It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them.L >Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds overlyJ >brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremeI >prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'taM >alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's something thatdL >we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several thousandK >dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever willa  >be.  And then God help the USA. >   K Which is exactly the reasoning behind these terrorists. They are seeking to H destroy the "rogue terrorist state" called the United States of America.  M Who is a "Rogue Terrorist state" / supporter of "plucky freedom fighters"  iso just a matter of perspective.-  L The solution is to solve the root causes eg get a peaceful resolution to theO situation in the Middle East rather than to attempt to "waste them with extremeaI prejudice" which will only lead to a new generation of "terrorist/freedome fighter" recruits. t      
 David Webb VMS and unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 07:09:40 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)0( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9nnfpk$bk4$1@lisa.gemair.com>  2 In article <9nlltu$bml$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,+ Brian Wheeler <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote:l) >In article <3B9E37C0.70205@townisp.com>,c- >	Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> writes:eK >> WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terrorists wiped o >> from the map. >> p >t >While I do agree... >. >eL >> Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culprit 9 >> will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals.  >> oI >> Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a counter attack so u& >> once again the terrorists get away. >> d9 >> This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American.t >> rJ >> Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated * >> in the most aggressive manner possible. >> . >> l >f >eN >It hasn't been that long since our founding fathers were nothing more than a 9 >small terrorist organization (boston tea party, anyone?)  >e  I Comparing the Boston Tea Party, at which nobody was injured IIRC, to what + happened yesterday in NY and DC is obscene.e  K Let's get this straight, the founding fathers performed symbolic acts, but EL did not further their aims by sheer terror and murder of innocents as these  suicide bombers have done.  N >Of course, their tactics were more tame than the jerk-offs who pulled today's >stunt.  >m  N Their tactics were not just tame by comparison, but of a completely different  nature.d   >Brian   -Jordan    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 07:15:37 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9nng4p$bv5$1@lisa.gemair.com>  O In article <9nm9v2$gso$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:p > 3 >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in messagee > L >> And that pantywaist viewpoint is what leads to horrible things like this. > J >Bullshit.  What leads to horrible things like this is horrible conditions> >that make people desperate enough to do *anything* in return. >e  E Or... It could be that we act fairly and responsibly in the world andu? have benefitted from it greatly and this has engendered hatred.e  F The very fact that your enemies somehow believe that killing innocentsF wholesale somehow represents justice would lead one to believe that we% in the US are on the right side here.5  C Of course, we don't always act responsibly.  Like, bombing SudanesebB aspirin factories to get the Monica Lewinsky testimony off of the D front pages was a pretty irresponsible act and can certainly be seen as engendering outrage.    >n >- billi >  >t >    -Jordanc   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:11:47 +0000 (UTC)f' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9nnftj$rjh$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>l  j In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:4 >At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:F >>If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourI >>soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes into F >>the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssE >>Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United Statesn& >>constitution died today as a result. >SJ >Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of our country!  LestH >you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudlyJ >stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's the dangerousK >man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who doesn't attack M >us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and sincerely as a friend;m0 >those who do attack us, should fear us greatly. >t  F Not true. Many countries who never attacked the US had corrupt regimesO maintained by the US, legitimately elected goverments toppled, had rebel armies  trained and financed by the US.d  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:21:39 +0000 (UTC)w' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb):( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9nngg3$rjh$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   b In article <tptirfp59b7d6b@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes: >Bill  >k >a >As for the Muslim religion.G >Christianity (and I am actually an Agnostic) propogates good will unto 8 >fellow man (whomever he be) - even if they are Muslims.K >The fundamentals of the Muslim religion are only guerrish and based aroundD- >very specific actions towards ANY non MuslimtK >The Koran is basically a bible de mort  to other Nationalities and creeds,4M >and should be considered as such when the Western world starts defending its % >shores (hopefully better than today)h >t  J I believe that Mohammed in the Koran calls christians and jews the "peopleA of the book" and had a great deal of respect for those religions. J The antipathy between christians and muslims (and for that matter jews) isN historical in nature (Crusades, founding of Israel etc) rather than having any basis in the Koran.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:33:21 +0100s0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9F4801.672076F3@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: > T > In article <9nlqtt$3tq$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >  > >lK > > The other side of the coin is the same as the one we're so reluctant to N > > address in dealing with our own societal problems:  trying to ease some ofI > > the underlying causes, rather than suppress their effects.  There aremP > > identifiable reasons why the U.S. is hated in much of the world, and many ofO > > them are not reasons for us to be proud of.  As long as we act as if we caniN > > engage with the the rest of the world only when it suits us, and ignore orJ > > bully them the rest of the time, we will as a country at least to someM > > degree deserve what we get (even though the individuals who pay the pricem! > > may not be those who should).4 > >0Q > "The Muslim methods were brutal. Many Christians were deliberately burnt alive.eP > Others were hacked to death with machetes or killed with poisoned arrows. TheyQ > were shot. Their throats were slit. They were beheaded. Men, women and children,N > were shown no pity. "Our people have been shot, butchered and roasted," saidH > Josiah Fearon, the Anglican bishop of Kaduna. The most vulnerable were% > Christians living in Muslim areas."  >     J >         You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christians0 >         as it is not supported by their faith. >   D Kosovo, Muslims massacred, raped, burn't alive by "Christion" serbs.
 Bosnia, Ditto.  E Possibly more relevant to this attack if it is Arab inspired, LebanonnD where christian militia backed by Israel, in turn backed by the US, F raped, multilated and killed the Palestinian inhabitants of 2 refugee  camps.  B Muslims do not have the monopoly on attrocity it is endemic. AfterA all we have had in the UK our own terrorist conflict between two l branches of the same religion.   regards  Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architectm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:54:27 +0100d0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9F5B03.49086FAD@uk.sun.com>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:n > * > At 12:43 PM 9/11/2001, Alan Greig wrote: > >Andrew Robert wrote:i > >eL > > > Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated- > > > in the most aggressive manner possible.a > > >e > > P > >But how do you deal with the problem that the terrorists apparently genuinelyK > >believe that the US is a (Satanic) "terrorist organization and should beyK > >eliminated in the most aggressive manner possible"? They believe this sod# > >absolutely they will die for it.o > I > It's simple: if we have the willpower and the means, we eliminate them. M > Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  If that sounds overlyeK > brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You waste them with extremerJ > prejudice and with any and all means you have available.  If they aren'tN > alive, they can't hurt you.  It's just that simple.  And it's something thatM > we've been loathe to do for "political reasons".  Well, if several thousandhL > dead American citizens aren't "political reason" enough, nothing ever will! > be.  And then God help the USA.   ? If Bin Ladin does turn out to be the instigator of this attack a> then one irony which should not be lost is that he learn't his? terrorist tactics in the Afgan revolt against the USSR. One of w0 the paymasters of the Afgan rebels were the CIA.  < If Saddam turns out to be the culprit then the US will also 9 be having to punish another of its earstwhile friends and ! recipients of US military "help".b  @ It may well turn out to be politically expedient to "eliminate",C extra judicially execute etc the culprits, but unless people learn t= the real lessons of this attrocity then any action by the US s9 will not reduce the risk of something like this happenings again.   Regardsb Andrew Harrisony Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:58:53 +0100p0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9F5C0D.AFA7E6C4@uk.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > = > "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in messagei+ > news:tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com...iK > > Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back thenr > >sI > > The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 yearsaJ > > later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the9 > > computing hardware requirements of George Washington.o > K > Y'know, it's the thought of people like you deciding to 'improve' it thato2 > makes people like me so intent on protecting it. >  > - bill    6 The US is a democracy governed by the rule of law. If 4 you venture outside the law to exact retribution on 3 who you think is the party that committed the crimed you risk a number of things.  - You diminish the democracy in which you live.e  : You stand the very real chance of exacting retribution on 8 the wrong people, last time it was only a food factory, 7 what happens if you flatten the whole of Kabul only to a find out later it was Saddam.r  8 You risk living in a country where extra judicial murder8 of innocent people becomes the norm as it did in Chile,  Argentina, Russia etc.   Regards  Andrew Harrison. Enterprise IT ArchitectI   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:03:54 +0100h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9F5D3A.44B3B801@uk.sun.com>   "D.Webb" wrote:  > l > In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:6 > >At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:H > >>If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourK > >>soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew those planes intonH > >>the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssG > >>Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United States2( > >>constitution died today as a result. > >eL > >Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of our country!  LestJ > >you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudlyL > >stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's the dangerousM > >man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who doesn't attack O > >us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and sincerely as a friend; 2 > >those who do attack us, should fear us greatly. > >  > H > Not true. Many countries who never attacked the US had corrupt regimesQ > maintained by the US, legitimately elected goverments toppled, had rebel armiese! > trained and financed by the US.w >   D There have also been some of the countries that have attacked the USH who were trained and financed by the US prior to the attack, Iraq being  an example.    Regardsl Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architectt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:40:44 -0700h# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>u( Subject: RE: OT:: Re: World Trade Center9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEJDDEAA.tom@kednos.com>u  E I note in todays Wall street journal which lists the occupants of the)	 buildingst7 that Sun (services) was on floors 25-26 in South Tower.a   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: andrew harrison [mailto:andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com]r- > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:04 AMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi* > Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center >n >r >s > "D.Webb" wrote:c > >e > > In article= > <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dant% > O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:l8 > > >At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:J > > >>If you truely believe that then may the Good Lord have mercy on yourA > > >>soul. To me you are as dangerous as the scum who flew thoseh
 > planes intodJ > > >>the towers. That way is the death of liberty. I expect that Dumb AssI > > >>Dubya will do that kind of shit and I expect that the United States * > > >>constitution died today as a result. > > >b? > > >Spoken like a true liberal weak link in the resolve of oury > country!  LestL > > >you think I would be offended or chastened by what you wrote, I proudly@ > > >stand by my feelings and my country.   And by the way: it's > the dangerousm@ > > >man who doesn't have to fear cowardly attacks.  Anybody who > doesn't attack: > > >us needn't fear us, and we'll embrace them openly and > sincerely as a friend;4 > > >those who do attack us, should fear us greatly. > > >b > > J > > Not true. Many countries who never attacked the US had corrupt regimesB > > maintained by the US, legitimately elected goverments toppled, > had rebel armies# > > trained and financed by the US.  > >  >tF > There have also been some of the countries that have attacked the USI > who were trained and financed by the US prior to the attack, Iraq beingo
 > an example.  >4	 > Regards0 > Andrew Harrisone > Enterprise IT Architect  >    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Sep 2001 13:46:30 GMT* From: bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <9nnovm$kr6$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>  * In article <9nnfpk$bk4$1@lisa.gemair.com>,2 	jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes:4 > In article <9nlltu$bml$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,- > Brian Wheeler <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote:-* >>In article <3B9E37C0.70205@townisp.com>,. >>	Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> writes:L >>> WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terrorists wiped  >>> from the map.e >>>  >> >>While I do agree...t >> >>M >>> Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culprit e: >>> will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals. >>> J >>> Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a counter attack so ' >>> once again the terrorists get away." >>> : >>> This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American. >>> K >>> Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated e+ >>> in the most aggressive manner possible.a >>>  >>>  >> >>O >>It hasn't been that long since our founding fathers were nothing more than a r: >>small terrorist organization (boston tea party, anyone?) >> > K > Comparing the Boston Tea Party, at which nobody was injured IIRC, to whatn- > happened yesterday in NY and DC is obscene.t > M > Let's get this straight, the founding fathers performed symbolic acts, but rN > did not further their aims by sheer terror and murder of innocents as these  > suicide bombers have done. > O >>Of course, their tactics were more tame than the jerk-offs who pulled today's. >>stunt. >> > P > Their tactics were not just tame by comparison, but of a completely different 	 > nature.. >   M I'm not disagreeing with the fact that yesterday's events were disgusting andn= obscene.  I'm just saying that the original poster's comment:   K >>> Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated I+ >>> in the most aggressive manner possible.    Is too far..   Briant   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:31:17 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <b9luptkjs1s38d9vlk6nbe4g9on1n96te6@4ax.com>  = On 12 Sep 2001 07:15:37 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordang Henderson) wrote:T    G >The very fact that your enemies somehow believe that killing innocentsIG >wholesale somehow represents justice would lead one to believe that wet& >in the US are on the right side here.  F What category do the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fall into? I'mA well aware of the tremendous losses imposed on US forces fightingy@ their way through the Japanese Islands and the reluctance of theE Japanese military to surrender so I am not saying the bomb should not @ have  been dropped but I also cannot define the occupants of theF cities as anything other than innocent civilians in the main. Same forF the occupants of Dresden, Germany where the number killed in one night> of fire-storm bombing exceeded that of the first atomic bombs.   > D >Of course, we don't always act responsibly.  Like, bombing SudaneseC >aspirin factories to get the Monica Lewinsky testimony off of the -E >front pages was a pretty irresponsible act and can certainly be seenm >as engendering outrage.  C Another case: Although I supported the action against Iraq just whymA exactly was Iraq given the impression the US would take no actionlA against it should it invade Kuwait? If you recall Iraq, extremelyo@ embarrassingly, produced the tapes of that particular diplomatic meeting.  > And I believe it is estimated that between 100,000 and 500,000E *conscripted* Iraqis were wiped out by allied bombing during the GulftF war. Despite their hatred of Saddam I doubt any Iraqi citizen who lostF a friend or relation in this action, will have much fondness for NATO.  F Then there were, for a long time, the relatively one-sided reports (orD lack of) of the Arab/Israeli conflict giving the US a skewed view ofA that conflict. Although the US networks have improved greatly the5C balance of the coverage in recent years to be fair. For a long timesE European screens were full of Israeli atrocities which barely made US = news bulletins unless you tuned to CNN International (not CNN F Domestic). CNN International attempts to provide balanced coverage and is a credit to US broadcasting.   C Keep in mind that it was Israeli policy to kill ten Arabs for everyxD Jew killed and that Israel is seen by Arab terrorists as a front forC the US although that's obviously not true. But it looks that way to11 those on the wrong end of Israeli tanks and guns.n  A And as for the bombing of the Serbian TV station killing the over B night duty make-up lady and broadcast technicians. Well that wouldF undoubtedly be a "war crime" in my opinion if the winning side did notC control the court. In fact I have a suspicion that even the currenteE court might convict if NATO leaders were put on trial for that crime.hC I supported the action against Serbia but that bombing sickened me. F The station might have been forced to broadcast propaganda but it alsoD allowed the BBC (one of the very few Western media outlets remainingE in Serbia during the conflict) to use its facilities to file reports.oB The BBC's John Simpson had just left hours previously. He had beenB warned himself and passed this on to the staff but they were underD orders not to leave. He past this info back to the BBC who passed it? to NATO who bombed it anyway. An undoubted war crime as I said.d  F Humans. Crazy fucked up animals who haven't yet learned not to shit inF their own cave. Once you realize that everything makes sense. It isn'tB "Original Sin" as the churches tell us it is "Original Stupidity",F "Original Gullibility" and "Original Ignorance" we should worry about.  @ And to end with the Bible: What part of "Thou shalt not kill" do people not understand?  D None of the above should be taken as support for the attacks againstC the US in case I need to make that clear. They were horrific crimeslF and the perpetrators should be caught and punished appropriately. I doC not support the death penalty except in the most extreme cases. Notb@ even for McVeigh. But this one probably fits the bill in even myE opinion. Only for the planners and organizers though. Not for the lowr level human 'robots' involved. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:04:53 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <uk2OC0Z8zAk$@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ] In article <3B9F4801.672076F3@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:o >  > Rob Young wrote:   > K >>         You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christiansa1 >>         as it is not supported by their faith.  >> g > F > Kosovo, Muslims massacred, raped, burn't alive by "Christion" serbs. > Bosnia, Dittoy > G > Possibly more relevant to this attack if it is Arab inspired, Lebanon F > where christian militia backed by Israel, in turn backed by the US, H > raped, multilated and killed the Palestinian inhabitants of 2 refugee  > camps. > D > Muslims do not have the monopoly on attrocity it is endemic. AfterC > all we have had in the UK our own terrorist conflict between two a  > branches of the same religion. >   = 	Note the context... "similar acts by Christians as it is note 	supported by their faith."c  C 	Such wickedness that you describe above runs contrary to Christiane* 	beliefs and a cursory reading shows that:   Matthew 7:21-23f  M "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,i< but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.J Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your C name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'nD Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you  evildoers!'"    D 	Very religious people are described there.  The people you describeC 	above may just be Christian in name only.  Many different passageso$ 	reveal what a Christian looks like:   John 14:21 w  K "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He whobO loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself toa him."h    A 	But what about us attacking the guilty parties?  We have gone to D 	war before as a nation with much fear and trepidation.  Such thingsC 	are not entered into lightly but sometimes are necessary to defend  	ourselves or our allies.u   				Robb   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:29:25 -0400c; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center$ Message-ID: <3b9f7142$1@news.si.com>  L >My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous andJ >substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.  At times like this, if; >we acted more directly to deal with this type of situatione  - Really?  Israel's situation proves otherwise.m -- -A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com0A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comO= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventu< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:31:05 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010912093009.0416ed78@ntbsod.psccos.com>  + At 08:29 AM 9/12/2001, Brian Tillman wrote:oN > >My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous andL > >substantial harm on my country and my countrymen.  At times like this, if= > >we acted more directly to deal with this type of situationd >A. >Really?  Israel's situation proves otherwise.  K Libya in 1986 proves otherwise to your contention.  But doing nothing otherhM than stamping our feet and wringing our hands is the worst possible response.f   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:49:12 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <sbfbnORgu0EM@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911204639.04153f10@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:* > At 08:29 PM 9/11/2001, Bob Kaplow wrote:I >>In article <5.1.0.14.2.20010911192555.04130ea0@ntbsod.psccos.com>, Dan l% >>O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:s8 >> > At 05:57 PM 9/11/2001, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: >>> >> >>When you use the enemy's tactics, then the enemy has won. >> >M >> > ..and they win even more when they know that all we're going to do is tolN >> > stamp our feet and wring our hands - which is all we've done for the last
 >> > 8 years.t >>I >>And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can'tnG >>travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyone K >>without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.-G >>Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our preciouswM >>liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as a result H >>of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanical >>issue. > 0 > Oh, c'mon, Bob!  You know me better than that! > M > How is hunting down these criminals and punishing them with great prejudicerO > going to lead to a police state here?  I fail to make the connection.  I haveeO > not, and I never will, advocated anything like that here.  And I've not hearddQ > anybody, either in this group or on any news show, paper, radio show, anyplace,nN > advocate it.  What I am saying is that those who did this MUST be brought toM > justice - and justice of the USA, not the World Court, or NATO, or anybody   > else.eL > And it's very possible to do so without turning our country in to a police > state.  1 I was adding to your comments, not opposing them.   L We've already got a situation where you can't get on an airplane without theH "paperz pleaze" routine. I fear this will be an excuse to take away even5 more of our personal freedoms away from our citizens.h  K I still remember exactly where I was the last time a news event shocked theaI nation like this: the Challenger explosion January 28, 1986. I was in thecH DEC Colorado Springs support center, sitting right next to Dan. I was in* shock for the rest of my visit to the CSC.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:49:49 -050031 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>.( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <9nnsmi$216$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  F Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction.i    -  Blaise Pascal>    L "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote inJ message news:y44rq8v6lp.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...4 > andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: >n@ > > Muslims do not have the monopoly on attrocity it is endemic. >bK > On no thing has Man expended more mental energy than on devising new ways2 of" > bringing his neighbour to death. >  > Jan    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:51:40 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <w4Ydoy0wzVdV@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  R In article <9nmne6$r1b$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:= > "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in messagey+ > news:tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com...oJ >> Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back then >>H >> The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 yearsI >> later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the 8 >> computing hardware requirements of George Washington. > K > Y'know, it's the thought of people like you deciding to 'improve' it thate2 > makes people like me so intent on protecting it.    L Here's another quote I found this morning that goes with Franklin's quote of 242 years ago:  I You [should] not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it willtK convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would dooI and the harm it would cause if improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson,t former President of the U.S.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:55:05 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <lhrQVQHwdRfn@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  a In article <aF5wvmyypn0F@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:aC > 	You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christians ) > 	as it is not supported by their faith.e  C Like in Northern Ireland? Or the street gangs in any major US city?e   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:04:07 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <BHJkp4G+GBPX@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <pnsuptccbjc22rr7n6gnvblr6ambsc2o6u@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:F > On 12 Sep 2001 09:04:53 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >  > O >>"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,f> >>but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. > H > But the Koran says similar and probably attributes that quote to JesusG > as well. Can't remember off hand. In any case the terrorists believedcH > that they were doing the will of God and were thus guaranteed to enter	 > heaven.  >   9 	Here is a good link that shows the Koran's view of Jesusu" 	and speaks directly to that text:  " http://www.thegrace.com/about.html  M Not everyone that is labeled as a Christian is a Christian. A person might be M pious, or religious, but not a real Christian; the Bible says: "Not every onenN that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but heF that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7 :21).G Unfortunately, most of those who are labeled as Christian, are not eveneN religious let alone real Christians. Moreover, in real Christianity, no nationH can be considered a Christian nation, because Christianity is a personalI relationship between God and the individual: "For many be called, but fewtN chosen. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is theH way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:O Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, ande6 few there be that find it." (Matthew 20:16; 7:13-14).     F > On Jesus the Koran differs from the Bible in that it claims that theF > biblical account of Jesus's execution/resurrection  was a Roman lie.  B 	I'm not so sure about that as the Koran talks about Jesus' return" 	to judge the living and the dead:  " http://www.thegrace.com/about.html    E Only Jesus Christ could give His followers high honors and assurances O concerning the day of Resurrection: "I will cause thee to die, and I will raise>K thee to Me, and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thyeO followers above the unbelievers till the resurrection Day," (House of Imran 55)r  D 	Talking about Christ bringing others to Himself on the Resurrection 	day... i.e. He is resurrected.a  E > Still I really should be careful citing the Koran without a copy in 2 > front of me as it is many years since I read it. > G > If all Christians read the Koran and all Muslims read the Bible maybea5 > that would be a start to  understanding each other.e >   A 	Not so.  There are truth claims in the Bible that are exclusive.wB 	It isn't "one big happy club" and Christ warns followers that you/ 	will be hated by your own family for His sake.    Matthew 10:21-22  > Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; E children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.eC All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the n end will be saved. n    B >>But what about us attacking the guilty parties?  We have gone toF >>	war before as a nation with much fear and trepidation.  Such thingsE >>	are not entered into lightly but sometimes are necessary to defend  >>	ourselves or our allies.s > E > And I'm sure that's exactly how the terrorist leaders justify their@H > actions. Or do you think they just wake up one morning thinking I want@ > to attack the US for no particular reason? In their minds theyH > attacked significant US infrastructure targets. They didn't crash into? > Disney after all. We, NATO, bomb enemy infrastructure targetsi > regardless of civilians. m >   D 	They attack for religious reasons.  Their own twisted view of their; 	teachings someone allow them to justify their viciousness.a  G > I'll also bet they also didn't expect the towers to fall. After all a F > huge bomb at base level left the infrastructure intact. Somewhere inG > the multiple hundreds of dead was probably what they were looking for H > - possibly equivalent to the number killed in a heavy NATO strike. NotH > that that excuses anything but the designers of these buildings have aH > lot to answer for as well. It seems that multiple floors collapsing atF > the impact levels onto the floors below cased a chain fracture rightG > down the 'indestructible' steel tubes around which the infrastructure B > was bolted on. That analysis from structural engineers somewhere< > amidst all the news coverage yesterday if I have it right. > B > Nobody (even the fire dept) expected these buildings to collapseG > completely and supposedly internal building stress indicators did nottF > indicate a fatal integrity problem immediately after the collisions.G > The same engineer said that if you wanted to bring the whole buildingaE > down with more  certainty they should have crashed much lower down. A > With an old style construction skyscraper high level hits would.B > probably not have brought it down. Even if the hit was by a 767. >(F > Bet nobody builds anything with that design unmodified again and, ifG > it turns out that this failure mode had been anticipated but ignored,a@ > then architects should face manslaughter charges for designingG > buildings containing 50,000 people with this type of known flaw. WheneA > you are playing with 50,000 lives you must take everything intotG > account. And if that's impossible then maybe we shouldn't build them.e >   A 	Early indications from what I understand is that it was designedl@ 	to sustain a plane crash.  But it obviously couldn't withstand C 	an hour of burning fuel that melted girders.  Hijacking West Coast.) 	bound flights ensured fully fueled jets.o   				Robs   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:20:47 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <0TRsbxsHG61l@malvm5.mala.bc.ca>  0 In article <tputg9p92snsab@news.supernews.com>, 2    "www.islandco.com" <sales@islandco.com> writes:  C > Ask a Muslim "Fundamentalist" if his God is the same as ours - Hee > undoubtedly will say "no"u > >    If by "fundamentalist" you mean "a person using religion to@ further his political ambitions" I'd probably agree, but I doubtA any serious Islamic scholar would argue that Allah and God aren't) the same entity.  C    Muslims do differ from Christians in that they don't ascribe anyiB divinity to Jesus, though he is respected as a prophet ( though of course inferior to Mohammed ).  K > I was lucky or unlucky enough to have had to take religious enducation in L > high school and was encouraged to read parts of the Koran (translation) asC > well as the old testament (which is no doubt written in parallel)i > E     I'm not sure what you mean by "in parallel". The Old Testament islE basically a Jewish work which predates the Christian era - the Koran IA was written in the middle ages - so the one predates the other by  thousands of years.o  D     I've read a translation of the Koran and it emphasises toleranceB for other faiths ( certainly more so than one would see in the oldF testament ). It also condones "holy war" against enemies of Islam, butF keep in mind this was written in the same era as Christians were going= on Crusades with the full support of their religious leaders.o  I     We need to focus on the evil of the people who commit terrorist acts,nE not on condeming a religion because the terrorist claims it justifiesn
 such acts.  I     We also need to remember that any military response against civiliansoA would be just as much a terrorist act as what happened yesterday.rJ Retaliation is certainly needed, but the targets must be chosen carefully.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:11:20 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y47kv4v6rb.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r  > > Only for the planners and organizers though. Not for the low  > level human 'robots' involved.  % The latter are already accounted for.k   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:14:42 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y44rq8v6lp.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  2 andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  ? > Muslims do not have the monopoly on attrocity it is endemic. h  L On no thing has Man expended more mental energy than on devising new ways of  bringing his neighbour to death.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:06:36 +0200i& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9F961C.46E38C5A@dplanet.ch>   Alan Greig wrote:e >t ... (snip) ... > G > I'll also bet they also didn't expect the towers to fall. After all anF > huge bomb at base level left the infrastructure intact. Somewhere inG > the multiple hundreds of dead was probably what they were looking foreH > - possibly equivalent to the number killed in a heavy NATO strike. NotH > that that excuses anything but the designers of these buildings have aH > lot to answer for as well. It seems that multiple floors collapsing atF > the impact levels onto the floors below cased a chain fracture rightG > down the 'indestructible' steel tubes around which the infrastructureeB > was bolted on. That analysis from structural engineers somewhere< > amidst all the news coverage yesterday if I have it right. > B > Nobody (even the fire dept) expected these buildings to collapseG > completely and supposedly internal building stress indicators did notTF > indicate a fatal integrity problem immediately after the collisions.G > The same engineer said that if you wanted to bring the whole building E > down with more  certainty they should have crashed much lower down.iA > With an old style construction skyscraper high level hits wouldwB > probably not have brought it down. Even if the hit was by a 767.  D I believe the problem was the 1500 degree temperatures caused by theA burning aviation fuel.  This softened the steel structures on the H relevant floors and when one floor collapsed it put huge stresses on theE softened steel of the next floor below, and that floor collapsing did H likewise to the next.  Eventually it reached a point where the weight ofH many floors caused the collapse of floors regardless of the state of the steel.  F The bomb in the basement car park did not result in temperatures beingB sustained at this level and hence did not bring the tower(s) down.  D I have no idea if the plans (or blueprints) of WTC were in the pubicD domain.  If they are/were, these drawings could easily have provided/ information which was useful to the terrorists.   F > Bet nobody builds anything with that design unmodified again and, ifG > it turns out that this failure mode had been anticipated but ignored, @ > then architects should face manslaughter charges for designingG > buildings containing 50,000 people with this type of known flaw. When A > you are playing with 50,000 lives you must take everything into9G > account. And if that's impossible then maybe we shouldn't build them.   A I don't believe it is possible to construct buildings which wouldiH withstand those kinds of temperatures short of making them huge concrete bunkers, at huge expense.R     John McLeans   >  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:45:55 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <kG9vm2+XFrTb@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  b In article <tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:I > Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back thena > G > The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 yearsnH > later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the7 > computing hardware requirements of George Washington.n  L So you'ld rather live in the secure police state that existed in the eastern$ block until a decade ago? No thanks.  J >> And they win when the USA is turned into a police state where you can'tH >> travel without "paperz pleaze". The police can stop and search anyoneL >> without cause. Or enter your house at 2am with guns drawn and no warrent.H >> Every time one of these terrorist incidents has occured, our preciousG >> liberties have been chipped away. They even tightened things up as ae > resultI >> of the 747 crash off Long Island, and that ended up being a mechanicaln	 >> issue.  >>G >> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporaryo > safetyM >> deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Reviewt >> of Pennsylvania. 1759   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:59:04 -0400 - From: "www.islandco.com" <sales@islandco.com>i( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <tputg9p92snsab@news.supernews.com>p   But Alan  E LIke you, I have had a lot of exposure to the Muslims and their faitho  K Granted - the history of Christianity has definitely some major blemishes -nJ Hey - the English are the ones who caused incredible death and destruction> during the crusades, but we learned that this was not the way.I BUT - unlike the current adaptation of Christianity,all forms encouragingEC peace,  the concept of Allah - maybe just interpreted by a few VERYnG dangerous individuals, is one that encourages voilence as a means to an-A end - or in real terms - the destruction of the enemies of Allah.z  A Ask a Muslim "Fundamentalist" if his God is the same as ours - Het undoubtedly will say "no"$  K AND Alan - I wouldn't call it Stupidity having these opinions - that is thelE great thing about an opinion - no one is necessarily right or wrong -> especially in this case.I I was lucky or unlucky enough to have had to take religious enducation inqJ high school and was encouraged to read parts of the Koran (translation) asA well as the old testament (which is no doubt written in parallel)   + Anyhow - I will beg to differ on this one -n  I And as for the Nagasaki and Hiroshima thing someone here mentioned - I do L not condone use of the Nuclear Bomb - but it sure did end that Japanese partK of the WWII Very quickly - (though I understand it was about to end anyhow).   DT            2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:0l7uptkfe8j09seau13425vqi4lipq8635@4ax.com...F > On 11 Sep 2001 23:32:07 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >lG > [Warning. Extreme views about religion follow. Skip this if you mighth$ > be offended. You have been warned] >b > >I? > > Much of the hatred is manufactured by religious extremists.T >UF > I see most (if not all) organized religion as a form of brain damageD > imposed on impressionable young (or vulnerable) minds. Note I said@ > "organized religion'. Once that damage is imposed to cognitiveB > functioning early on by imposing belief in illogical and unsoundF > reasoning the adult mind can be convinced of anything. Undoing it isF > close to impossible as the degree of damage is such that the victims@ > see nothing wrong with themselves and are convinced that it isF > everyone else that is screwed up and to avoid the conflicting inputsD > of rationality they must destroy the sources (ie people) trying to > insert alternative views.s >tA > The degree of brain damage varies but Christianity has not been D > immune. Catholics and Protestant violence, murder, bombings etc inE > Northern Ireland (mostly financed by clueless US citizens remember)gC > demonstrate how brain damage and stupidity can bring even westernyC > countries down if allowed to run unchecked. In this case with the H > great help of incredibly stupid British foreign policy for a very longF > time. Have you ever heard the Reverend Ian Paisley (leader of the soC > called Democratic Unionist Party (protestant) in Northern Ireland-H > speak? Even in Scotland we have religious hatred between supporters ofA > the two main Glasgow football teams - Rangers (Prot) and Celtics2 > (Cath). Almost unbelievable in this day and age. >a >c > >n= > >http://www.barnabasfund.org/nigeria%20petition/update1.htmv > >.K > >"The Muslim methods were brutal. Many Christians were deliberately burnt  alive.L > >Others were hacked to death with machetes or killed with poisoned arrows. TheyI > >were shot. Their throats were slit. They were beheaded. Men, women ande childrenJ > >were shown no pity. "Our people have been shot, butchered and roasted," saidI > >Josiah Fearon, the Anglican bishop of Kaduna. The most vulnerable were & > >Christians living in Muslim areas." > >a > > D > > You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christians >iG > Never heard of the Crusades? No wonder you understand nothing. Or foro< > that matter US fundamentalist attacks on abortion clinics. >C* > > as it is not supported by their faith. >uD > Attacks against Christians are not supported by The Koran (and yesC > I've read it along with The Bible, Book of Mormon etc). The KoraneC > urges Muslims to respect "People of The Book" The Book being "The1A > Bible" (from the Greek word for book). People of The Book beingnB > Christians and Jews. Much of the content of the Koran is closelyH > related to the Bible. Hey and Jesus is in it so you might want to take	 > a look.  >s > > D > > I heard first hand about similar acts as those above.  What alsoE > > happens is that extremists spread lies about America.  We are all E > > "Christians" is what Nigerians are told.  That we are vicious and C > > all sorts of other stories.  Fortunately, enough Nigerians comeiD > > to this country and go home to tell their fellow countrymen whatA > > a great place this is.  That is what the two Nigerians we hadaC > > over on Sunday said.  They know this country is great, and theyc  > > are very excited to be here. > F > Dear oh dear you sound like a copy of the Plain Truth or Watchtower. >gH > >John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father > >but by me." > >gH > >Matthew 25:31-32 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angelsI > >with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nationse will be.K > >gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as  au/ > >shepherd separates the sheep and the goats."g >hB > Yes I'm really looking forward to praising an insane God for all > eternity.  >lH > There only ever was one Christian. And they crucified him. If anything > you follow Paulianity. >dH > And let's not forget  Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Jews all share theG > same God and kill each other in that God's name. A God who supposedlyNG > created us with the free-will to do this and then sits back like some'2 > kind of sick psychopath watching the blood flow. >yH > Sorry Rob but you are being brainwashed into insanity and your logicalF > reasoning is clearly suffering. Now do I need help or am I a tool of > Satan? >  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:49:15 -0400b5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center0 Message-ID: <ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net>  B andrew harrison wrote in message <3B9F5C0D.AFA7E6C4@uk.sun.com>... >       : >You stand the very real chance of exacting retribution on8 >the wrong people, last time it was only a food factory,7 >what happens if you flatten the whole of Kabul only tot >find out later it was Saddam. >n    ; I'm tempted to say - kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.i  H I will say that the actions of the US have, at least in the past, led toJ much of what we are now reaping.  We let ourselves be guided by people whoJ would back the most horrible leaders, for the sake of "strategic balance".2 The middle east is a cesspool we helped to create.  K But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped to stop, I is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, thetL answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver him alive -G or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make Desert 4 Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:34:46 +0100I% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <lesuptk7jumoa9ic21nmd43hdq7do0s9uo@4ax.com>  . On 12 Sep 2001 16:11:20 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  ( >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >d? >> Only for the planners and organizers though. Not for the lowd! >> level human 'robots' involved.p >e& >The latter are already accounted for.  @ It worries me that a few more low level people will be found andF executed. According to their teachers they instantly then enter heaven0 dying in God's service. More will then queue up.   >	Janh   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:16:23 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>v( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <pnsuptccbjc22rr7n6gnvblr6ambsc2o6u@4ax.com>  D On 12 Sep 2001 09:04:53 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    N >"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,= >but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.f  F But the Koran says similar and probably attributes that quote to JesusE as well. Can't remember off hand. In any case the terrorists believed F that they were doing the will of God and were thus guaranteed to enter heaven.   D On Jesus the Koran differs from the Bible in that it claims that theD biblical account of Jesus's execution/resurrection  was a Roman lie.C Still I really should be careful citing the Koran without a copy in-0 front of me as it is many years since I read it.  E If all Christians read the Koran and all Muslims read the Bible maybe 3 that would be a start to  understanding each other.m  A >But what about us attacking the guilty parties?  We have gone towE >	war before as a nation with much fear and trepidation.  Such thingsnD >	are not entered into lightly but sometimes are necessary to defend >	ourselves or our allies.  C And I'm sure that's exactly how the terrorist leaders justify theiriF actions. Or do you think they just wake up one morning thinking I want> to attack the US for no particular reason? In their minds theyF attacked significant US infrastructure targets. They didn't crash into= Disney after all. We, NATO, bomb enemy infrastructure targetse regardless of civilians.    E I'll also bet they also didn't expect the towers to fall. After all aiD huge bomb at base level left the infrastructure intact. Somewhere inE the multiple hundreds of dead was probably what they were looking foraF - possibly equivalent to the number killed in a heavy NATO strike. NotF that that excuses anything but the designers of these buildings have aF lot to answer for as well. It seems that multiple floors collapsing atD the impact levels onto the floors below cased a chain fracture rightE down the 'indestructible' steel tubes around which the infrastructuret@ was bolted on. That analysis from structural engineers somewhere: amidst all the news coverage yesterday if I have it right.  @ Nobody (even the fire dept) expected these buildings to collapseE completely and supposedly internal building stress indicators did nothD indicate a fatal integrity problem immediately after the collisions.E The same engineer said that if you wanted to bring the whole buildingeC down with more  certainty they should have crashed much lower down. ? With an old style construction skyscraper high level hits wouldr@ probably not have brought it down. Even if the hit was by a 767.  D Bet nobody builds anything with that design unmodified again and, ifE it turns out that this failure mode had been anticipated but ignored,b> then architects should face manslaughter charges for designingE buildings containing 50,000 people with this type of known flaw. WhenG? you are playing with 50,000 lives you must take everything into E account. And if that's impossible then maybe we shouldn't build them.    -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:57:51 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)b( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9no0lv$142$1@lisa.gemair.com>  2 In article <9nnovm$kr6$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,+ Brian Wheeler <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote:h+ >In article <9nnfpk$bk4$1@lisa.gemair.com>, 3 >	jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) writes: 5 >> In article <9nlltu$bml$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,e. >> Brian Wheeler <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote:+ >>>In article <3B9E37C0.70205@townisp.com>,-/ >>>	Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> writes:3M >>>> WW III is a bit extreme but I wouldn't mind seeing the terrorists wiped r >>>> from the map. >>>> 9 >>>. >>>While I do agree... >>>G >>>wN >>>> Considering the magnitude of the attack, it is unlikely the true culprit ; >>>> will claim responsibility because they fear reprisals.i >>>> uK >>>> Without proof, the politicians will not authorize a counter attack so  ( >>>> once again the terrorists get away. >>>> o; >>>> This kind of thing makes me ashamed to be an American.x >>>> nL >>>> Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated , >>>> in the most aggressive manner possible. >>>>   >>>> l >>>  >>>tP >>>It hasn't been that long since our founding fathers were nothing more than a ; >>>small terrorist organization (boston tea party, anyone?)n >>>s >>  L >> Comparing the Boston Tea Party, at which nobody was injured IIRC, to what. >> happened yesterday in NY and DC is obscene. >> eN >> Let's get this straight, the founding fathers performed symbolic acts, but O >> did not further their aims by sheer terror and murder of innocents as these r >> suicide bombers have done.g >>  P >>>Of course, their tactics were more tame than the jerk-offs who pulled today's	 >>>stunt.  >>>c >> dQ >> Their tactics were not just tame by comparison, but of a completely different l
 >> nature. >> t >vN >I'm not disagreeing with the fact that yesterday's events were disgusting and> >obscene.  I'm just saying that the original poster's comment: >hL >>>> Personally, I would like to see all terrorist organizations eliminated , >>>> in the most aggressive manner possible. >e >Is too far. >o  O Agreed.  I just bristled at the comparison, by referring to both as terrorists,h9 with the US founding fathers and the WTC suicide bombers.a   >Brian   -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.com    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 12:17:36 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9no1r0$2tj$1@lisa.gemair.com>  8 In article <b9luptkjs1s38d9vlk6nbe4g9on1n96te6@4ax.com>,' Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:f> >On 12 Sep 2001 07:15:37 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan >Henderson) wrote: >n >dH >>The very fact that your enemies somehow believe that killing innocentsH >>wholesale somehow represents justice would lead one to believe that we' >>in the US are on the right side here.h >tG >What category do the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fall into? I'mkB >well aware of the tremendous losses imposed on US forces fightingA >their way through the Japanese Islands and the reluctance of therF >Japanese military to surrender so I am not saying the bomb should notA >have  been dropped but I also cannot define the occupants of theMG >cities as anything other than innocent civilians in the main. Same forSG >the occupants of Dresden, Germany where the number killed in one night ? >of fire-storm bombing exceeded that of the first atomic bombs.k >m  G I won't go into Dresden at all, just don't know what to say about that.n  E In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it could be argued, based on what American E troops encountered in Okinawa that this blow actually saved the liveshC of innocents in ending the war quickly.  There's also the argument  C that use of those weapons at that time prevented Russian occupationtG of Japan.  I shudder to think of the loss of innocent life under Stalin ' that the Japanese might have sufferred.a  D However, I'm far removed from all this historically, and don't know E whether these defenses are rationalizations or what.  I do think that>G we acted more morally when given the possibility of using these weapons>E than the other side would have acted toward us, which while this may nD also be a rationalization.  It was perhaps a blessing that they wereG first used in such a way so as to suddenly end a bitter conflict ratherpF than start a new war years later.  Perhaps this demonstration providedE some pause to those who might have otherwise been tempted to use theml in the following years.l  E As I said, I'm removed from all this and I don't know how to evaluatenH it.  I could be convinced that these acts were attrocious acts committedG against innocents, but that was then, this is now.  We need to address nE the attrocity at hand rather than being paralyzed by the mulling overr of potential past misdeeds.@   >>E >>Of course, we don't always act responsibly.  Like, bombing Sudanese D >>aspirin factories to get the Monica Lewinsky testimony off of the F >>front pages was a pretty irresponsible act and can certainly be seen >>as engendering outrage.a >dD >Another case: Although I supported the action against Iraq just whyB >exactly was Iraq given the impression the US would take no actionB >against it should it invade Kuwait? If you recall Iraq, extremelyA >embarrassingly, produced the tapes of that particular diplomaticn	 >meeting.n >o  = A misstep, for sure.  As I recall, that particular tape only AC indicated that the US didn't want to get involved and that Iraq andsB Kuwait should work this out in any way necessary.  I don't believeC the US actually thought, at that time, that Iraq was going to seizeo Kuwait.n  ? >And I believe it is estimated that between 100,000 and 500,000 F >*conscripted* Iraqis were wiped out by allied bombing during the GulfG >war. Despite their hatred of Saddam I doubt any Iraqi citizen who lost G >a friend or relation in this action, will have much fondness for NATO.   J Conscripts are combatants.  We can hardly sort them out, you know?  AnyoneI is uniform is not normally afforded the status of "innocent".  Certainly,r7 US conscripts have never been, in Vietnam or elsewhere.I   >yG >Then there were, for a long time, the relatively one-sided reports (or E >lack of) of the Arab/Israeli conflict giving the US a skewed view ofeB >that conflict. Although the US networks have improved greatly theD >balance of the coverage in recent years to be fair. For a long timeF >European screens were full of Israeli atrocities which barely made US> >news bulletins unless you tuned to CNN International (not CNNG >Domestic). CNN International attempts to provide balanced coverage andi  >is a credit to US broadcasting. >eD >Keep in mind that it was Israeli policy to kill ten Arabs for everyE >Jew killed and that Israel is seen by Arab terrorists as a front foruD >the US although that's obviously not true. But it looks that way to2 >those on the wrong end of Israeli tanks and guns. >iB >And as for the bombing of the Serbian TV station killing the overC >night duty make-up lady and broadcast technicians. Well that wouldhG >undoubtedly be a "war crime" in my opinion if the winning side did not D >control the court. In fact I have a suspicion that even the currentF >court might convict if NATO leaders were put on trial for that crime.D >I supported the action against Serbia but that bombing sickened me.G >The station might have been forced to broadcast propaganda but it also E >allowed the BBC (one of the very few Western media outlets remainingsF >in Serbia during the conflict) to use its facilities to file reports.C >The BBC's John Simpson had just left hours previously. He had beentC >warned himself and passed this on to the staff but they were undereE >orders not to leave. He past this info back to the BBC who passed ity@ >to NATO who bombed it anyway. An undoubted war crime as I said. > G >Humans. Crazy fucked up animals who haven't yet learned not to shit ineG >their own cave. Once you realize that everything makes sense. It isn'taC >"Original Sin" as the churches tell us it is "Original Stupidity",tG >"Original Gullibility" and "Original Ignorance" we should worry about.i > A >And to end with the Bible: What part of "Thou shalt not kill" dot >people not understand?   D I've heard that better translated as "Thou shalt not commit murder".A Military action perpetrated by Western Democracies have typicallye@ been self defense, although I'm not here to defend them all, of  course.n   >nE >None of the above should be taken as support for the attacks againstuD >the US in case I need to make that clear. They were horrific crimesG >and the perpetrators should be caught and punished appropriately. I douD >not support the death penalty except in the most extreme cases. NotA >even for McVeigh. But this one probably fits the bill in even my.F >opinion. Only for the planners and organizers though. Not for the low >level human 'robots' involved.   A I don't support the death penalty either.  I would be opposed to eA assassination missions.  However, the nature of our reprisals mayr@ be military and it is often difficult to execute military goals ! without elimiating the adversary.o   >--  >Alan    -Jordan Henderson  jordan@greenapple.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:08:56 -0400r' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>p( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9no4ou$940$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net...   ...i  = > I'm tempted to say - kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.   L Of course.  So am I.  That's what makes saying it (in a country that has the) capacity actually to do it) so dangerous.i   >aJ > I will say that the actions of the US have, at least in the past, led toL > much of what we are now reaping.  We let ourselves be guided by people whoL > would back the most horrible leaders, for the sake of "strategic balance".4 > The middle east is a cesspool we helped to create.  L People will point to the Cold War as justification for a lot of this.  Maybe* it really did justify at least some of it.  H But we've now had over a decade without that to try to put things right.G And instead we've heaved a collective sigh of relief and largely eithergL ignored such responsibilities or exploited our new, unfettered power.  (SameE applies domestically, of course:  the bottom half economically of ourPD population hasn't benefited much from the end of the Cold War or the. dramatic economic expansion that followed it.)  I There's been a shift from military exploitation to economic exploitation, I but we still look pretty ugly in the eyes of a significant portion of theg world, and not without reason.   > G > But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped toc stop,sK > is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, the F > answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver him alive -FI > or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make Desert 6 > Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.  I No answers of this nature are 'simple'.  And any action requires 'belief' L substantiated by evidence at least close to sufficient to convict in a court of law.,  K Assuming that such evidence surfaces, then whatever action is *required* tooL obtain the perpetrators is justifiable.  But running roughshod over anythingL or anyone who gets in our way is *not* justifiable:  we have the capacity toK circumvent many obstacles and to handle any remaining ones in a manner thatl* reflects our values rather than our anger.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:27:27 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y4iteo2ubk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:t  B > Nobody (even the fire dept) expected these buildings to collapseG > completely and supposedly internal building stress indicators did notTF > indicate a fatal integrity problem immediately after the collisions.G > The same engineer said that if you wanted to bring the whole buildingjE > down with more  certainty they should have crashed much lower down.d  E See an article on the BBC web site. Basically, a number of structural H engineers say they are surprised the towers held out that long. As notedF elsewhere, the fire weakened the steel structural supports in spite ofF their concrete cover, specifically put there in case of fire. Also, itI was commented that the high hits made it impossible for the NYFD to fight  the fires effectively.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Sep 2001 12:08:58 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.374515.killspam.015f (Wayne Sewell) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center. Message-ID: <4c7T8HzaYsNB@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  X In article <9nmha2$4c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> writes:4 > "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message> > news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...J >> My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous > and,4 >> substantial harm on my country and my countrymen. > N > Dan, learn to understand your enemy. The terrorists who were on those planesH > can hardly be called cowardly. Bastards, yes, but these people weren't > afraid to die.  K I'm not sure how much courage is involved here.  In their religious fervor,K@ these people believe that the more "infidels" they kill in theirF self-destruction, the greater their chances of making it to heaven, orM valhalla, or whatever they call it.  If they believed, as I do, that death ismC the end of everything, maybe they wouldn't be so hot to embrace it.l  ; Are we talking about courage or institutionalized insanity?s   --  O ===============================================================================wM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)sO ===============================================================================tH Randolph Duke (in Trading Places): "Mother always said you were greedy.". Mortimer Duke: "She meant it as a compliment!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:27:45 +0200t= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>h: Subject: Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime) Message-ID: <3B9F46B1.D687C7A3@gtech.com>    Barry Skidmore wrote: F > I have been looking for Dec C documentation on how to pass argumentsH > to main() at runtime, but have not had any luck.  Could someone pleaseA > point me in the right direction.  I am using Dec C (V6.0) undero > OpenVMS 7.2.   Try and look at the VMS FAQ !l   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:38:17 +0400r4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> Subject: Protected context0 Message-ID: <3B9F02D9.35650C00@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   Hi All! U 	I working on some kind of application which use an external modules (shared library)tR to implement some specific actions. A main process (server) called a routines withP some kind of context area. I'd like to protect this context area from changes by routines from external modules.   , 	Is there any tips an triks which I can use?   	TIA.n --   Cheers,tF +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker........................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222tE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222 F +http://www.levitte.org/~rlaishev/ .......... SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:58:48 +0200t= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>t Subject: Re: Protected context) Message-ID: <3B9F23C8.2EC32D61@gtech.com>t   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:^ >         I working on some kind of application which use an external modules (shared library)T > to implement some specific actions. A main process (server) called a routines withR > some kind of context area. I'd like to protect this context area from changes by! > routines from external modules.o > 5 >         Is there any tips an triks which I can use?@  	 One idea:w   - setup context area.   - call sys$setprt to change protection to UR   - call external routiner3   - call sys$setprt to change protection back to UWn   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:00:57 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o Subject: Re: Protected context3 Message-ID: <9DfNxvcX$3B0@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  i In article <3B9F23C8.2EC32D61@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:t > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:_ >>         I working on some kind of application which use an external modules (shared library)>U >> to implement some specific actions. A main process (server) called a routines withoS >> some kind of context area. I'd like to protect this context area from changes byt" >> routines from external modules. >> l6 >>         Is there any tips an triks which I can use? >  > One idea:h >   - setup context area0 >   - call sys$setprt to change protection to UR >   - call external routinen5 >   - call sys$setprt to change protection back to UWi  @ To be more secure than that you would have to use an inner mode.@ There are many ways to misprogram use of an inner mode such that2 the program works but is not actually more secure.  A Perhaps putting the untrusted code in a subprocess would be best.i  N ==============================================================================I The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anythingtJ      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willI      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningsyH      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival      of the online community."N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:25:52 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> 7 Subject: Re: solaris 7 compatible with vms  in printingr) Message-ID: <3B9F4640.7052F5C4@gtech.com>o   uche wrote:aE > does anyone know whether solaris 7 is compatible with vms as far ase8 > printing is concerned. Thanks for helping a newbie out  " Could you be a bit more specific ?   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:45:08 +0900s& From: "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net> Subject: Unzip program+ Message-ID: <9nnhc9$fli$1@news2.kornet.net>g  K I was able to download the VMSTAR zip file to my PC computer.  And since myaL OpenVMS Alpha is not connect to the internet at all.  Can I use Winzip on myH PC to unzip this file and transfer it over to my Alpha computer? or do IL need to have an unzip program specifically  running on VMS platform to unzip
 this file?   Thank you in advance   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:57:13 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Unzip program( Message-ID: <3B9F4D99.383091C@127.0.0.1>   David Lee wrote:M > I was able to download the VMSTAR zip file to my PC computer.  And since mynN > OpenVMS Alpha is not connect to the internet at all.  Can I use Winzip on myJ > PC to unzip this file and transfer it over to my Alpha computer? or do IN > need to have an unzip program specifically  running on VMS platform to unzip > this file?  D I would fully recommend using a native UNZIP / decompression on your? OpenVMS system. If the archive is built correctly, it will havehE preserved the file attributes and you will have no problems with thise& file and decompressing its components.  = I very often use OpenVMS ZIP and UNZIP to 'armour' a file forpG transportation between OpenVMS systems for this reason, over non-nativeh file transfer medium.c -- i( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:38:31 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.sH Message-ID: <y4d74w505k.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s  G > Mark Gorham's slides indicated the first early adopters release wouldaH > have DECnet Phase IV (he paused expecting applause) but no clustering.H > They are hedging about support (as distinguished from code) for triple > architecture clusters.  G Quite to the contrary - having triple-architecture clusters is good foro exposing the bugs.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:19:56 +0100n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. ) Message-ID: <3B9F1AAC.7120B809@127.0.0.1>t   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: >  > Nic Clews wrote:   > > OpenVMS is truly legacy. >         BULLSHIT!i  B I'm referring to the dictionary definition of the word. I had thisB argument internally regarding the use of the word. Please see your favourite dictionary.a  H OpenVMS will outlive HP, should they also fall. Again, it will be handed to a successor.   E HP will hopefully realise that if they want to make the most of 'thisnH little gem', they should treat it with the care and respect it deserves, my opinion of course.r   -- a( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:23:37 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au 5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.a5 Message-ID: <01K89E7ULPB60054KW@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>o   Nic,   >"Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:m >> t >> Nic Clews wrote:n >0 >> > OpenVMS is truly legacy.e >>         BULLSHIT! >mC >I'm referring to the dictionary definition of the word. I had thisyC >argument internally regarding the use of the word. Please see yourh >favourite dictionary.  K Fervently agree.  I believe someone fairly recently suggested that Digital o* (Palmer) had coined this derogatory usage.  M In some similar thread about a year or two ago, I mentioned that my org. has eN started to call things heritage, with a similarly intended derogatory usage.  3 Consider what heritage means on the world listings.v  M Meanings of words do change.  Usually over a hundred years or so.  Let's not vF try to get Merriam-Webster, the Oxford, Collins, Chambers, etc. to be  re-written overnight.    [snips of a couple of para.]   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:03:19 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.d3 Message-ID: <At0++oVz33V9@eisner.encompasserve.org>y   In article <y4d74w505k.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:r > H >> Mark Gorham's slides indicated the first early adopters release wouldI >> have DECnet Phase IV (he paused expecting applause) but no clustering.aI >> They are hedging about support (as distinguished from code) for triplei >> architecture clusters.  > I > Quite to the contrary - having triple-architecture clusters is good forl > exposing the bugs.  F I don't see houw your statement is "to the contrary" at all.  The factH that they decide not to support a configuration does not mean they won'tE use it internally.  They want to discover bugs internally, but not inl" supported external configurations.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:30:39 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>a5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. H Message-ID: <y4g09s2u68.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:i  K > > Quite to the contrary - having triple-architecture clusters is good fore > > exposing the bugs.H > I don't see houw your statement is "to the contrary" at all.  The factJ > that they decide not to support a configuration does not mean they won'tG > use it internally.  They want to discover bugs internally, but not inb$ > supported external configurations.  K Well OK - let's say half and half. Customer testing always has more breadtha$ and is more likely to find problems.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:09:48 +0100'+ From: "Pye, Graham" <Graham.Pye@compaq.com> < Subject: RE: Where can I get a micro-Vax with vms in the UK?P Message-ID: <F5949552111A66489D2D578D92B3697201D66688@reoexc04.emea.cpqcorp.net>  G <<< Glad you chipped in here, as I got confused as to what the Hobbyistu	 licenses oK <<< for ALL-IN-1 give us. I.e. What can we run with the following PAKs, and. to t+ <<< which installation kits do they relate?o <<<n <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-DW-CLIENT <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-SERVERe <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-SERVER-USER <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-VT-CLIENT <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-VT-USER <<<    ALLIN1-MAIL-WAN-SERVERo  H I'm pretty sure that all of the above licences are for DEC MailWorks forI OpenVMS (I think that's its proper name) usually known as MailWorks. Thisa- product was at one time called ALL-IN-1 Mail.d  J None of those licences will allow ALL-IN-1 (now known as Office Server) to work.5  
 Graham Pye   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:33:11 +0200t$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centern Message-ID: <3b9f39e8$1@hcwe67>m  . I hope, that 2 things happen at the same time:  B 1) Those responsible for this act can be hunted down and punished.J 2) USA starts thinking about, how it can cause so much hate in the islamic worlde1     may be there could something be changed, too.    regardsy   Jakob   7 "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragh8 news:56pn7.134887$aZ.19327508@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...K > Just in case you guys at DECUS haven't heard yet,   The two towers of thegE > World Trade Center, and  the Pentagon have been attacked by suicideeI > airliners.   One tower at the trade center has collapsed.  Most likely, F > thousands are dead.  News is very sketchy, but the tragedy is clear. >dG > I feel  bad even asking this question, but I wonder how much presencel CompaqJ > and/or HP might have in those buildings!  This is a national disaster of ther4 > first magnitude and the effects will be pervasive. >c >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:52:09 +0200f& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centero* Message-ID: <3B9F92B9.CA220D04@dplanet.ch>   Island Computers wrote:  > J > My extreme sympathies to all those that perished in this diabolical act.  : Agreed, but let me straighten out the rest of your posting   > N > I am betting the US is currently planning  both covert and invasional action0 > against Bin Ladin's host country, Afghanistan.  D The US would be extremely foolish to act without justification to do8 so.  This would make them no better than the terrorists.   > L > They really are an enemy of the Western world - NPR has been keeping up toF > date with the misionaries who are currently being held for spreadingC > Christian propaganda - that alone is enough to send in the troopse  H Those missionaries should have been well aware the possible consequences5 of their actions.  What they did was plainly foolish.e  G That said, with the expression of sympathy from the government of Iran, F I am surprised that the State Dept did not take the opportunity to ask: or the rlease of the missionaries as a sign of good faith.  tF > Damn it - I hope we do - just also hope no arab works in any Nuclear5 > facilities - it would not be appropriate right now.0  G What "arab" do you mean ?  The Saudia-Arabian national who assisted the F allied forces in the Gulf War ? Nationals of some other Middle-easternE country, many of whom have decided to flee from oppression at home ? nC Your generality is a slur on many arabs in many parts of the world.n    >  > DT >  > -- > David Turner    E CNN is still reporting that the group or network responsible for thisi@ has not been identified.  While Osama bin Laden is still a prime2 suspect, there appears to be no proof of any link.  H The problem is of course that US foreign policy towards the mid-east hasG angered many countries, in particular Palestine.  They see US policy asnF being strongly biased towards Israel, especially in the refusal of theD US to condemn Israel for some of its actions.  The recent walkout ofB Israel and the US from the conference on racism only adds to this.  E Suicide bombings are something that Paletine practices with dismaying H regularity in Israel and the evident joy of Palestine over the terroristF acts both point in that direction.  In the last few weeks we have seenD incidents - from Hezbollah I think - which showed that Yasser Arafat3 does not control some of the more extremist groups.t  F All this said, it is doubtful that Palestinians would have the abilityF to perform these acts without financial and logistic support.  PerhapsG this radical group requested assistance from the likes of bin Laden.  I E surmise that no-one is claiming responsibility because to do so wouldb9 incur the wrath of most of the world, especially the USA.l  H As for suggestions of this being a cowardly act, that's a difficult callH to make.  Most of us would regard a suicide mission as a very brave act,F but certain religions (or sects thereof) consider a suicide act in the7 name of their religion to actually be a glorious thing."  H I submit that the targets were carefully chosen to make a bold statementC that the USA is not immune to such acts.  I suspect that the fourthyG plane was not destined for Camp David but for either the White House orlF the Capitol building.  It is difficult to think of any buildings whichE are more identified with the USA than these five.  On this basis, the=F chances of other attacks seem rather remote because the point has been	 now made.        John McLeann   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:19:53 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center-( Message-ID: <9no5de$adh$1@pyrite.mv.net>  I "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> wrote in message news:3b9f39e8$1@hcwe67...:0 > I hope, that 2 things happen at the same time: >:D > 1) Those responsible for this act can be hunted down and punished.L > 2) USA starts thinking about, how it can cause so much hate in the islamic > worldo3 >     may be there could something be changed, too.  >r	 > regardsn >e > Jakob-  / Thank you for putting it so simply and so well.e   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.508 ************************