1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 13 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 509       Contents: Re: A higher-level perspective Re: Any news from DECUS? Colorado t3000 - Tape Drive  Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS? 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history? ( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( RE: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? Re: LAT PRINTERS Logging ftp visitors Re: Logging ftp visitors Re: MicroVAX II - Test #3 (8)  Re: More VMS Wish List Items... G Need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I need help!!!  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center # Pathworks, Advanced Server issue...  Re: Protected context  Rape me!D SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H RE: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies. Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:35:01 +0100 & From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk>' Subject: Re: A higher-level perspective , Message-ID: <3B9FB8E5.B4B368E@aerosys.co.uk>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > * > ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk> writes: > J > > You can't expect highly creative engineers and others to produce worldL > > beating product if they constantly live in a climate of fear about their	 > > jobs.  > O > Intel apparently can. Well, at least in the manufacturing arm of the company.  > See www.faceintel.org. > 
 >         Jan   N Have had a look and am shocked. If it's true, who could really respect or want0 to work for such a neo fascist organisation ?...       Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:04:08 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ! Subject: Re: Any news from DECUS? ' Message-ID: <3BA00608.2642FD17@fsi.net>    john nixon wrote:  > I > Any inspiring speeches?  Any confidence building announcements?  Is the  > Update.Daily up on the web? L > (I tried calling it CETS, but that was too hard for me to get used to, and7 > it is bound to change now anyway.  So, DECUS it is!).   D Strange - CETS (HPETS?) attendees left home in peace time. They willH return home - after some difficulty - at a time when the U.S. is at war.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:49:46 +1200 & From: A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj>$ Subject: Colorado t3000 - Tape Drive2 Message-ID: <01C13DC3.5FE8E4A0@PATRICK.FSC.COM.FJ>  [ I'm  looking for the driver (NT4) for the above device. Can anyone tell me where to get it?    AB   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:14:02 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> $ Subject: Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?' Message-ID: <3BA0085A.C9232884@fsi.net>    Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > Didier Morandi wrote: % > > jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil wrote: A > > > Does any one have any info about a port of cpio to OpenVMS?  > > & > > W H A T   I S   CPIO ????????????? > 9 > A common Unix utility. A very old Unix utility I think.   8 Seems to be compilation of (unsplit?), g(un)zip and tar.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 14:46:51 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)3 Message-ID: <x1EatnG4pF3N@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3B9E82FC.6050809@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: > Alan Greig wrote: $ >>  You might be amused to know thatH >> much of VMS is still written in Macro-32 which then is cross-compiled >> to Alpha and soon IA64..  > . > Well, technically it isn't 'cross-compiled'.  F Early in the port it was cross compiled (compiled on a VAX to generateD Alpha code).  Bet the engineers were so happy when the compilers ranC native.  Still wish I could get some VAX Ada code cross compiled on / Alpha (compiled on Alpha to generate VAX code).    > J > The moving of Macro-32 code from OpenVMS Alpha to IA64 should be easier J > in some regards (you already had to decorate your code with .CALL_ENTRY I > and .JSB_ENTRY directives for instance when moving from VAX to Alpha),  G > but harder in other ways.  How much Macro-32 code writes into R0 for  D > instance? (and for those you haven't read their IA64 architecture K > guides, R0 is a readonly register fixed as 0 much like R31 on the Alpha).  >   H    There's no rule that a Macro-32 compiler has to represent VAX R0 in aE    CPU register, and there's plenty of registers on IA-64 to do it in %    anyhow, just don't use IA-64's R0.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:32:20 GMT ) From: Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Message-ID: <3B9FB85C.B0647513@mediaone.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > L > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net...< > > In article <3ftrptcknbs4imrdjlds860a8s5tr454f7@4ax.com>,- > >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: = > > >On Tue, 11 Sep 01 08:02:33 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > > >  > > >  > > >>J > > >>You are assuming that the writers (VMS) are still around.  Are they? > > > > > > >Well obviously the oft mentioned Dave Cutler isn't there. > > C > > I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't 1 > > a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.  > ' > One out of three isn't all that good.  > H > Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significantL > portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing thatN > release's successful creation (even though his management style could take a > toll on others). >  > - bill  B Dave also personally wrote a lot of the SMP code for VMS, from his= office in ZSO; after Dick had said that VMS was ASMP forever. F I contend that the SMPization of VMS is the work of a real programmer. --   Cheers, Bob    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:20:48 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)3 Message-ID: <lqjI7JyV9DIh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <x1EatnG4pF3N@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: X > In article <3B9E82FC.6050809@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: >> Alan Greig wrote:% >>>  You might be amused to know that I >>> much of VMS is still written in Macro-32 which then is cross-compiled  >>> to Alpha and soon IA64.. >>  / >> Well, technically it isn't 'cross-compiled'.  > H > Early in the port it was cross compiled (compiled on a VAX to generateF > Alpha code).  Bet the engineers were so happy when the compilers ranE > native.  Still wish I could get some VAX Ada code cross compiled on 1 > Alpha (compiled on Alpha to generate VAX code).   ) Have you tried VESTing the VAX compiler ?   K >> The moving of Macro-32 code from OpenVMS Alpha to IA64 should be easier  K >> in some regards (you already had to decorate your code with .CALL_ENTRY  J >> and .JSB_ENTRY directives for instance when moving from VAX to Alpha), H >> but harder in other ways.  How much Macro-32 code writes into R0 for E >> instance? (and for those you haven't read their IA64 architecture  L >> guides, R0 is a readonly register fixed as 0 much like R31 on the Alpha). >>   > J >    There's no rule that a Macro-32 compiler has to represent VAX R0 in aG >    CPU register, and there's plenty of registers on IA-64 to do it in ' >    anyhow, just don't use IA-64's R0.   B Clair Grant said at his session today they would be doing this for IMACRO, C and Bliss.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 15:58:49 -07003 From: utlonghornsrule@yahoo.com (Newbie JrSysAdmin) 6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?= Message-ID: <2de05464.0109121458.57346e35@posting.google.com>   [ Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:<3B9F4992.D3A33715@gtech.com>...  > Bill Todd wrote:J > > The Inquirer has some new articles today which have been cited in someD > > comp.os.vms discussion, but a major point hasn't surfaced there: > > + > > http://www.theinquirer.net/10090107.htm  > > P > > He said: "Following typical Compaq strategy ("Software is something partnersM > > do.") the initial talks with HP were concerning Compaq licensing HP-UX as N > > their high-end UNIX for the Itanium platform, rather than continuing theirO > > own port. Even if the acquisition falls through, these plans will continue.  > G > I think nobody can imagine HP porting two high-end commercial Unix'es 
 > to Itanium.  >  > It does not make sense.  > ) > HP-UX is already ported. Tru64 are not. * > HP bougth Compaq. Compaq did not nuy HP. >  > The conclusion is obvious. >  > Arne    2 dangit, arne, don't use logic in a computer forum.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:08:27 -0700< From: alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com (Aaron Sakovich)1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? = Message-ID: <8af17fe1.0109121008.4d64a1b8@posting.google.com>   h sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) wrote in message news:<jXun7.118$YP.6029@news.cpqcorp.net>...E > the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand. 6 > there is new left nav available on almost every pageL > The server has been upgraded/dated from OpenVMS 6.2, Purveyor 2.x, UCX 4.2% > to OpenVMS 7.3, CSWS 1.x, TCPIP 5.1   D Congrats on the upgrade, but like the others, I'll echo the "too badB it's not a cluster" sentiment.  I also just now noticed that thereD really is some cool OpenVMS merchandise in the eStore, finally.  I'mC going to go get one of those collectible Compaq OpenVMS coffee mugs C before they become HP...  And do those pens only say "Compaq" or is % there an "OpenVMS" someplace on them?   F Personally, I like the new layout -- the different categories are very5 easy to follow, much better than the previous design.   F And personally, I like JavaScript and would MUCH rather see that being< used than the toy Flash crap that's on so many sites (Compaq
 included).  / Thanks for the update and your efforts, Warren.  Aaron    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:57:28 -0400 > From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>1 Subject: RE: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? M Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D01602378@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>    > -----Original Message------ > From: alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com 0 > [mailto:alphaman-nixspam@hsv.sungardtrust.com]- > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:08 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 1 > Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com down ???  > > > sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander) wrote in message . > news:<jXun7.118$YP.6029@news.cpqcorp.net>...G > > the new OpenVMS webserver is now in the new compaq corporate brand. 8 > > there is new left nav available on almost every page9 > > The server has been upgraded/dated from OpenVMS 6.2,   > Purveyor 2.x, UCX 4.2 ' > > to OpenVMS 7.3, CSWS 1.x, TCPIP 5.1  > F > Congrats on the upgrade, but like the others, I'll echo the "too badD > it's not a cluster" sentiment.  I also just now noticed that thereF > really is some cool OpenVMS merchandise in the eStore, finally.  I'mE > going to go get one of those collectible Compaq OpenVMS coffee mugs E > before they become HP...  And do those pens only say "Compaq" or is ' > there an "OpenVMS" someplace on them?   J Yes.  There is "Compaq OpenVMS" in smaller white letters (about font 10 or 12),  J while "COMPAQ" is in larger (font 14 or 18) in white letters.  The two are separated by a white line.   >  <snip>   :) jck
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadway  Albany, NY  12204  USA  518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com   ) I post personal opinion only, and all the * disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my) views in no way represent my employer(s). + One should also take note of the Electronic ) Communications Privacy Act of 1986, which + imposes civil and criminal liability on any ( person who intentionally intercepts "any( wire, oral or electronic communication."   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:16:22 GMT 0 From: sander@vmsbiz.enet.dec.com (Warren Sander)1 Subject: Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ??? 0 Message-ID: <GgQn7.153$YP.7450@news.cpqcorp.net>   re: why it's not a cluster ..   K It was as you stated when we first went up in 1995. It was for 2 years. For M that 2 years the second system was NEVER used. ie first OSU and then Purveyor O were rock solid and the only times the system went down were planned outages or = unplanned outages that would have effected the cluster also.    K I was expecting this to be a quick upgrade but it took longer than expected I and a cluster would have helped [split cluster, keep old running, upgrade I on other cpu, kill running system, put new os/version on net, bring other ' back into the cluster] live and learn.    M When I split the old cluster I had better use for the hardware (it became the K first Altavista search for the digital.com sites [I pushed for a search and M they said they didn't have the hw to do it so I gave them one of my systems,  ( they weren't happy I called the bluff],   L I'd like to cluster the system but I don't think it will happen. Not becauseO we don't have the resources/systems to do it but because it adds an extra layer L to the overall management of the server and server software. Since I'm usingL a 'cluster alias' to be www.openvms.compaq.com it would only be picked up byM one system anyway and would failover in the event of a crash. Now I've had a  N couple of crashes but the VMS, TCP and CSWS folks and I have managed to point L the finger mostly at me and my config/autogen/params/cgi-scripts etc. Those M problems have been solved and I expect the server will become as solid as the P old one. In fact one of the MAJOR pains of the old one is fixed so far which hadL to do with how the console was run and loosing sync in the commincations and* having to reboot to get OPA0 back online.    so yes I'd like a cluster.  Q As for javascript.. The folks that do most of the design work in houston are very Q IE oriented. You can't turn off Javascript etc in IE so they don't think about it M even though they are supposed to support both equally. The site looks nice on K IE with javascript and css and cookies and I can understand not having that K stuff turned on. I've tried to make the pages work with/without this stuff.   N Some of it's a pain. the 3.03 vs mozilla background image problem. I broke theP pages to make them work with 3.03 which broke the left nav for mozilla. There isM supposed to be a new version of mozilla that fixes the background image stuff  so that problem will go away.   Q As for the 'blue' links rather than the white/black links that's a local function M of the browser. If I override them in the <body> tag then somethings brake in M the style sheets. I'm still looking at that but I really don't want to recode  15,000 pages again.          -- SB ------------------------------------------------------------------6 Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingD Compaq Computer Corporation          Work:  warren.sander@compaq.comE 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@ma.ultranet.comu3 Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875u6    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myself -          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/  B ------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:45:54 +0128s4 From: "Brett I. Holcomb" <bholcomb@r777cableone.net> Subject: Re: LAT PRINTERSr/ Message-ID: <tpvpaipnaoks7b@corp.supernews.com>   F Check out sys$startup:lat$*.com.  You have to startup lat (I do it in J sys$startup_vms) with one file and the there is another com file that you 3 set up the ports in and is executed during startup.e   Virginia Flores wrote:  , > <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> > <DIV>T > <DIV>Hi all:</DIV> > <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>rL > <DIV>I am on a client site in Canada and since I cannot leave on schedule,J > I'm trying to get some extra work done.&nbsp; I am working on a VERY oldL > VAX 4000 series and I have an old dot matrix printer that the client wantsG > to re-configure for LAT.&nbsp; Since the last time I configured a LATpC > printer was 8 years ago, any assistance or a pointer in the right I > direction would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I can get intoeJ > the LAT console, and I can create a port.&nbsp; My memory fails me afterK > that.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance and hope everyone ise7 > holding up OK,</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>-VirginiarK > Flores</DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of- > MSN Explorer at <a > T href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></html>   -- r Brett I. Holcomb bholcomb@R777cableone.net 
 Microsoft MVPe
 AKA Grunt <><B Remove R777 to email   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:46:10 -0700e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r Subject: Logging ftp visitorsp9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEJODEAA.tom@kednos.com>n  ; Under 7.3 with tcpip5.1 is there a way to log anonymous ftpt" logins by say, recording their IP?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:54:55 GMT 1 From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@radiolinja.fi>h! Subject: Re: Logging ftp visitorsw2 Message-ID: <01c13c18$93dadb80$9b0ba8c0@rlhkikker>  J The log file of anonymous ftp (other ftp logs are in same directory) is by defaultm  0 SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$FTP]TCPIP$FTP_ANONYMOUS.LOG  I The info here includes the user name and FTP client for the session amongo
 other things. : The location of the log file can be rediredted by defining   TCPIP$FTP_ANONYMOUS_LOG    -Kari-  , Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote in article0 <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEJODEAA.tom@kednos.com>...= > Under 7.3 with tcpip5.1 is there a way to log anonymous ftp $ > logins by say, recording their IP? >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:16:33 -0000e From: sword7@speakeasy.org& Subject: Re: MicroVAX II - Test #3 (8)/ Message-ID: <tq05o1ii6nss65@corp.supernews.com>M  , Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> wrote:C > The IPCR interrupt vectors through the System Control Block (SCB)1 > device vector 204 (hex). e  F Ok, thank you for that.  I did that and finally got '>>>' prompt afterF all tests completed.  Whew.  When I entered 'b', I got '?40 NOSUCHDEV'F message with HALT instruction after it was counted down to 2.  PrimaryG bootstrap was completed, secondary bootstrap is being loaded (starting D step 2).  E Ok, I will work on disk interface right now.  Does anyone know about eF MSCP/TMSCP programming specs?  I have a copy of RXQD3/UDA50 specs and E DEQNA ethernet specs.  Does anyone have information about SCSI-based a' interface like RRD40 CD-ROM drive, etc?   
 Thank you!   -- Tim Stark   --  , Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.orgJ --------------------------------------------------------------------------F "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that H whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:18:02 -0500.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>p( Subject: Re: More VMS Wish List Items...' Message-ID: <3BA0094A.5FB62764@fsi.net>    I keep forgetting this one:c  
 F$TRNLNM()- - Add wildcard capability (like SHOW LOGICAL)l   -- g David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsk http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 14:18:19 -0700% From: scada@cyberunlimited.org (Jeff)mP Subject: Need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I need help!!!< Message-ID: <39ac55d0.0109121318.8cd7d8c@posting.google.com>  M I need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I don't know if it L has to support POSTSCRIPT, SIXEL and DDIF. If it just has to be a POSTSCRIPTK Printer, what Level of POSTSCRIPT do I need; 1, 2 or 3. I know that it will N have to support simple ASCII Control Codes because I have Text Files that needN to be printed. If anyone knows of a Printer that will support all of my needs, please Email me at:t   scada@cyberunlimited.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:03:55 -0400h' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9no801$cef$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J "Wayne Sewell" <wayne@tachysoft.xxx.374515.killspam.015f> wrote in message( news:4c7T8HzaYsNB@tachxxsoftxxconsult...< > In article <9nmha2$4c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> writes: 6 > > "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message@ > > news:5.1.0.14.2.20010911152443.040e7058@ntbsod.psccos.com...L > >> My bottom line is this: these cowardly bast**ds have inflicted grievous > > andk6 > >> substantial harm on my country and my countrymen. > >eI > > Dan, learn to understand your enemy. The terrorists who were on thosec planesJ > > can hardly be called cowardly. Bastards, yes, but these people weren't > > afraid to die. >e1 > I'm not sure how much courage is involved here.a  I No assertion was made that these people were courageous per se, only that E calling them cowardly (the mot de jour from several of our government  leaders) was hardly reasonable.l   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:43:54 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center) Message-ID: <01091212435466@antinode.org>   E    Am I confused, or is this supposed to be a VMS-related news group?   G    Now that we have resolved the questions of global warming, terroristsC attacks, and comparative religion, could we try harder to limit theo4 topics covered to the original purpose of the group?  H    When great events occur, it is natural to wish to discuss them, and IE encourage everyone reading this to discuss anything you wish, all younE wish, just somewhere else.  If you are venting here because you can'tgA find anyone in your neighborhood who is willing to listen to you,n' perhaps that should tell you something.@  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)rC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)lG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work) 9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)'   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:58:52 -0400e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>h( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center0 Message-ID: <PnNn7.138$YP.7842@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9no4ou$940$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >tA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagef+ >news:ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net...  >i >... >g> >> I'm tempted to say - kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. >aI >Of course.  So am I.  That's what makes saying it (in a country that hasb ther* >capacity actually to do it) so dangerous. >e    ' Dangerous?  Why?  Someone might listen?o  K Frankly, if we were to simply bomb the shit out of Libya, Iraq, Afganistan,fG and the Gaza Strip, while there would indeed be innocent casualties, itaL might also lead some of these countries to think twice before permitting the5 operation of such groups to ever again strike the US.y   Stuff "measured response".   >>K >> I will say that the actions of the US have, at least in the past, led to I >> much of what we are now reaping.  We let ourselves be guided by people- who C >> would back the most horrible leaders, for the sake of "strategic 	 balance".o5 >> The middle east is a cesspool we helped to create.2 >8F >People will point to the Cold War as justification for a lot of this. Maybe + >it really did justify at least some of it.  >     D We justified far too much in our zeal against the "godless commies".  I >But we've now had over a decade without that to try to put things right.aH >And instead we've heaved a collective sigh of relief and largely eitherF >ignored such responsibilities or exploited our new, unfettered power.  J I agree, and I disagree.  Having caused the collapse of the threat that weA justified our behavior, we indeed did not "go back" and admit ouraH culpability for wrongs committed in the name of fighting communism.  ButK please give me the example of how we have now "expoited our new, unfetteredi power".m  I What we have continued to do, in the middle east at least, is to continue L the same misguided "strategic" thinking of trying to prop up enemies againstF each other in some sembalance of balance.  Unfortunately, most of thisK centered around blind backing of all actions of Israel.  Saddam is still inS@ power because *we* still want him there (weak, but still there).  H No, we haven't exploited some "new power" but continue to play dangerous games.   >  (SameF >applies domestically, of course:  the bottom half economically of ourE >population hasn't benefited much from the end of the Cold War or the./ >dramatic economic expansion that followed it.)  >p    9 What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?s  J >There's been a shift from military exploitation to economic exploitation,J >but we still look pretty ugly in the eyes of a significant portion of the >world, and not without reason.h >h   Be a little more specific.   >>H >> But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped to >stop,L >> is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, theG >> answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver hims >alive -J >> or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make Desert7 >> Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.o >wJ >No answers of this nature are 'simple'.  And any action requires 'belief'G >substantiated by evidence at least close to sufficient to convict in a' court  >of law. >o  J Bullshit.  The actions should be considered an act of war, by a country orL countries, or by individual actors.  If we have credible evidence that it isH an individual in another country (as opposed to the country itself), andI that country does not hand him over, then the country should implictly be00 considered a part of the terrorist organization.  L >Assuming that such evidence surfaces, then whatever action is *required* toD >obtain the perpetrators is justifiable.  But running roughshod over anythingJ >or anyone who gets in our way is *not* justifiable:  we have the capacity toL >circumvent many obstacles and to handle any remaining ones in a manner that+ >reflects our values rather than our anger.t >.    " Again.  Stuff "measured" response.  A Of course, you have (by now) noticed the contradiction between mylL statements.  That is, we share blame for the conditions that may have led us@ to this point, yet our reaction to it should be swift and harsh.  L There is a time for introspection (later).  To try and understand the reasonG why so many of these people hate the U.S. - at least the actions of our  government.o  K There is a time for action (now).  Because you cannot let an action such as L this stand.  The reaction must be swift, harsh, and be clear that the PEOPLEK of the United States, not just it's sometimes misguided government will not  tolerate certain things.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:38:13 -0400C- From: "www.islandco.com" <sales@islandco.com>t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <tpvab5bolbms54@news.supernews.com>   
 Here Here!   DT  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:PnNn7.138$YP.7842@news.cpqcorp.net...< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9no4ou$940$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > >rC > >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagen- > >news:ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net...  > >  > >... > >a@ > >> I'm tempted to say - kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. > > K > >Of course.  So am I.  That's what makes saying it (in a country that hase > they, > >capacity actually to do it) so dangerous. > >- >- >-) > Dangerous?  Why?  Someone might listen?2 >6A > Frankly, if we were to simply bomb the shit out of Libya, Iraq,: Afganistan,pI > and the Gaza Strip, while there would indeed be innocent casualties, iteJ > might also lead some of these countries to think twice before permitting thep7 > operation of such groups to ever again strike the US.n >y > Stuff "measured response". >  > >>J > >> I will say that the actions of the US have, at least in the past, led toK > >> much of what we are now reaping.  We let ourselves be guided by people  > whoaE > >> would back the most horrible leaders, for the sake of "strategic  > balance".e7 > >> The middle east is a cesspool we helped to create.r > > H > >People will point to the Cold War as justification for a lot of this. > Maybet- > >it really did justify at least some of it.t > >o >c >tF > We justified far too much in our zeal against the "godless commies". >hK > >But we've now had over a decade without that to try to put things right. J > >And instead we've heaved a collective sigh of relief and largely eitherH > >ignored such responsibilities or exploited our new, unfettered power. > L > I agree, and I disagree.  Having caused the collapse of the threat that weC > justified our behavior, we indeed did not "go back" and admit our J > culpability for wrongs committed in the name of fighting communism.  ButB > please give me the example of how we have now "expoited our new,
 unfettered	 > power".f >cK > What we have continued to do, in the middle east at least, is to continue F > the same misguided "strategic" thinking of trying to prop up enemies againstiH > each other in some sembalance of balance.  Unfortunately, most of thisJ > centered around blind backing of all actions of Israel.  Saddam is still inB > power because *we* still want him there (weak, but still there). >oJ > No, we haven't exploited some "new power" but continue to play dangerous > games. >I
 > >  (SameH > >applies domestically, of course:  the bottom half economically of ourG > >population hasn't benefited much from the end of the Cold War or thes1 > >dramatic economic expansion that followed it.)s > >e >o >p; > What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?t >dL > >There's been a shift from military exploitation to economic exploitation,L > >but we still look pretty ugly in the eyes of a significant portion of the! > >world, and not without reason.g > >b >. > Be a little more specific. >w > >>J > >> But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped to > >stop,J > >> is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, the I > >> answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver himf
 > >alive -L > >> or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make Desert9 > >> Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.n > >nL > >No answers of this nature are 'simple'.  And any action requires 'belief'I > >substantiated by evidence at least close to sufficient to convict in a  > courtM
 > >of law. > >C >uL > Bullshit.  The actions should be considered an act of war, by a country orK > countries, or by individual actors.  If we have credible evidence that it  isJ > an individual in another country (as opposed to the country itself), andK > that country does not hand him over, then the country should implictly be-2 > considered a part of the terrorist organization. >-K > >Assuming that such evidence surfaces, then whatever action is *required*  toF > >obtain the perpetrators is justifiable.  But running roughshod over
 > anythingL > >or anyone who gets in our way is *not* justifiable:  we have the capacity > toI > >circumvent many obstacles and to handle any remaining ones in a mannero that- > >reflects our values rather than our anger.  > >g >a >p$ > Again.  Stuff "measured" response. >dC > Of course, you have (by now) noticed the contradiction between my K > statements.  That is, we share blame for the conditions that may have led  usB > to this point, yet our reaction to it should be swift and harsh. >rG > There is a time for introspection (later).  To try and understand ther reasonI > why so many of these people hate the U.S. - at least the actions of ouri
 > government.  >nJ > There is a time for action (now).  Because you cannot let an action such asG > this stand.  The reaction must be swift, harsh, and be clear that thes PEOPLEI > of the United States, not just it's sometimes misguided government willb notD > tolerate certain things. >h >  >r >e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:34:16 GMT/" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center9 Message-ID: <Xns911A7FE04ED9Ffalkarcabca@205.233.108.180>p  3 andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in # news:3B9F4801.672076F3@uk.sun.com:     >  > F > Kosovo, Muslims massacred, raped, burn't alive by "Christion" serbs. > Bosnia, Dittoe > G > Possibly more relevant to this attack if it is Arab inspired, Lebanon:F > where christian militia backed by Israel, in turn backed by the US, H > raped, multilated and killed the Palestinian inhabitants of 2 refugee  > camps. > D > Muslims do not have the monopoly on attrocity it is endemic. AfterC > all we have had in the UK our own terrorist conflict between two i  > branches of the same religion.  J An excellent example, particularly because it is very clear that religion J has nothing to do with the conflict at all.  The conflict is about groups G having/wanting political and economic power.  Religious affiliation is sJ merely the marker for which group an individual belongs to.  So it is for I most (all?) "religious" conflicts.  Same applies when the marker is skin _+ colour, language, earlobe length, whatever.   t@ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca i@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road 1                         Edmonton, Alberta, CanadaI http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4o  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:43:36 -0400t5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center0 Message-ID: <P1On7.142$YP.7456@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Yes, it's a VMS-related newsgroup, and a VMS-related community (with perhapsK the exception of Andrew, who has his own purposes for being here).  As withpG all "communities", when an event occurs that has a great impact on it's J members, it is normal for it to be discussed.  I predict it will have lessK responses than "I hate Compaq" or equally stupid threads (like the "parity"s thread in comp.os.arch).  K The thread is marked Off Topic (OT) just mark it as read, or add a new rule L to your filter to block any thread with "OT" in the subject.  Pretty easy to do.-      B sms@antinode.org wrote in message <01091212435466@antinode.org>...F >   Am I confused, or is this supposed to be a VMS-related news group? > H >   Now that we have resolved the questions of global warming, terroristD >attacks, and comparative religion, could we try harder to limit the5 >topics covered to the original purpose of the group?d > I >   When great events occur, it is natural to wish to discuss them, and I.F >encourage everyone reading this to discuss anything you wish, all youF >wish, just somewhere else.  If you are venting here because you can'tB >find anyone in your neighborhood who is willing to listen to you,( >perhaps that should tell you something. >/I >------------------------------------------------------------------------p >0D >   Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)D >   382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)H >   Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work): >   sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:25:11 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>R( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9nocoi$hth$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:PnNn7.138$YP.7842@news.cpqcorp.net...< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9no4ou$940$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > >-C > >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message - > >news:ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net...c > >: > >... > >l@ > >> I'm tempted to say - kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. > >lK > >Of course.  So am I.  That's what makes saying it (in a country that hasY > theh, > >capacity actually to do it) so dangerous. > >e >r >n) > Dangerous?  Why?  Someone might listen?   D Exactly.  Possibly people in this country who might actually be in aK position to act in such a manner, and certainly people elsewhere who reallyn# don't know whether we'll run amuck.v   >lA > Frankly, if we were to simply bomb the shit out of Libya, Iraq,y Afganistan, I > and the Gaza Strip, while there would indeed be innocent casualties, ithJ > might also lead some of these countries to think twice before permitting thew7 > operation of such groups to ever again strike the US.o  L Frankly, I'd start seriously considering participating in domestic terrorism% myself if we did something like that.w   >  > Stuff "measured response".  I 'Measured response' is in no way the issue here, appropriate execution of- the appropriate response is.   ...e  K > >But we've now had over a decade without that to try to put things right.lJ > >And instead we've heaved a collective sigh of relief and largely eitherH > >ignored such responsibilities or exploited our new, unfettered power. >vL > I agree, and I disagree.  Having caused the collapse of the threat that weC > justified our behavior, we indeed did not "go back" and admit our E > culpability for wrongs committed in the name of fighting communism.u  E I wasn't suggesting a major 'mea culpa' (which would not in any eventsK materially change the world if nothing else accompanied it) but rather thatiG we have not changed our approach to the world to one of cooperation andn( uplift rather than competitive strategy.     ButsB > please give me the example of how we have now "expoited our new,
 unfettered	 > power".   K We certainly don't pay attention to world opinion nearly as much as we usedhI to when we were competing for it (walking out of the recent conference on I racism is a good recent example of ignoring the rest of the world when we H find it inconvenient rather than committing to engagement with it).  ButK most of the exploitation has been economic, where again we don't worry much@J about how our actions affect the rest of the world as long as it returns a profit.Y  L We may well not be behaving any more badly than we used to, but my point wasL that we exploit our ability to *continue* irresponsible behavior (in a worldL that now allows us to profit more directly from it) instead of using our new* freedom of action to act more responsibly.   >aK > What we have continued to do, in the middle east at least, is to continue F > the same misguided "strategic" thinking of trying to prop up enemies againstnH > each other in some sembalance of balance.  Unfortunately, most of this9 > centered around blind backing of all actions of Israel.l  H On that we may agree.  I suspect the disintegration of the peace effortsI following Rabin's assassination (by a right-wing Israeli who accomplishedaE with that act exactly what he set out to) contributed in some ways tohG Monday's tragedy.  While I wouldn't say our backing since then has beenwL entirely blind, we certainly haven't exerted the pressure we should have (upJ to and including withdrawal of all support, if necessary) to get them back& on the track that Rabin was following.     Saddam is still inB > power because *we* still want him there (weak, but still there).  B Maybe.  I'd be more inclined to say he's still in power because weG miscalculated his level of domestic support, but there are complexitiesnC involving a balance in the region with Iran that I don't pretend toi understand.h   > J > No, we haven't exploited some "new power" but continue to play dangerous > games.  K As I explained above, the 'new power' I was referring to was our ability to 6 continue these dangerous games with fewer constraints.   >d
 > >  (SameH > >applies domestically, of course:  the bottom half economically of ourG > >population hasn't benefited much from the end of the Cold War or thee1 > >dramatic economic expansion that followed it.)a > >n >u >t; > What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?m  L It has to do with an attitude that might (largely economic, though of courseK backed militarily) makes right, rather than an attitude that with increasedl* blessings come increased responsibilities.   >sL > >There's been a shift from military exploitation to economic exploitation,L > >but we still look pretty ugly in the eyes of a significant portion of the! > >world, and not without reason.l > >  >r > Be a little more specific.  K You didn't do a bad job yourself above, and I've already added a bit to it.hK We're still the 800 pound gorilla who isn't all very careful about throwinghG his weight around - even though there's no one of anywhere nearly equalmL weight left to be a threat.  It *might* be enough just to stop doing so, butK I'd like to see active steps to try to make us a more positive influence inhJ the world (yes, we do take a few already, and if we were just more careful8 about the rest of our actions that might be sufficient).   >r > >>J > >> But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped to > >stop,J > >> is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, thebI > >> answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver him.
 > >alive -L > >> or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make Desert9 > >> Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.s > >sL > >No answers of this nature are 'simple'.  And any action requires 'belief'I > >substantiated by evidence at least close to sufficient to convict in aa > court 
 > >of law. > >b >eL > Bullshit.  The actions should be considered an act of war, by a country orK > countries, or by individual actors.  If we have credible evidence that iti isJ > an individual in another country (as opposed to the country itself), andK > that country does not hand him over, then the country should implictly bee2 > considered a part of the terrorist organization.  I Large gorilla pounds chest.  Small airplanes get worried, start shooting.h Large gorilla eventually loses.o  A There are ways to approach such problems (if they occur) short of G immediately treating a country that demands respect for its territorialo" integrity as an active accomplice.   >cK > >Assuming that such evidence surfaces, then whatever action is *required*e toF > >obtain the perpetrators is justifiable.  But running roughshod over
 > anythingL > >or anyone who gets in our way is *not* justifiable:  we have the capacity > toI > >circumvent many obstacles and to handle any remaining ones in a manner  that- > >reflects our values rather than our anger.) > >c >e >u$ > Again.  Stuff "measured" response.  K Again, you're confusing limiting the response with implementing the correctUD response in the correct manner.  That seems quite similar to the way> terrorists think - the major difference being that our countryL unquestionably has the ability to implement a response in the correct mannerI (and thus no excuse for not doing so), whereas terrorists have relatively5+ limited available mechanisms and resources.    > C > Of course, you have (by now) noticed the contradiction between my7K > statements.  That is, we share blame for the conditions that may have ledp usB > to this point, yet our reaction to it should be swift and harsh. >w, > There is a time for introspection (later).  E There's always time for introspection if you're not in the midst of amF battle.  We're not:  even if you call it a war, we're between battles.  "   To try and understand the reasonI > why so many of these people hate the U.S. - at least the actions of our 
 > government.? >o# > There is a time for action (now).i  E 100% wrong, if that action occurs as a knee-jerk response outside then7 reasonable expectations of the international community.s  *   Because you cannot let an action such asG > this stand.  The reaction must be swift, harsh, and be clear that theu PEOPLEI > of the United States, not just it's sometimes misguided government willI not  > tolerate certain things.  J No one has suggested that Monday's actions be tolerated.  But I (at least,G as one of the PEOPLE you're talking about) won't tolerate irresponsibleh  action by my government, either.  J So I'm a lot more concerned that the reaction be the correct one than thatJ it be swift.  But I do believe that the correct reaction should be, in the end, inexorable.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 14:35:39 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <G532hFqDlIVB@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  a In article <aF5wvmyypn0F@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:s  C > 	You will be very hard pressed to find similar acts by Christians.) > 	as it is not supported by their faith.t  F    I was going to stay out of this, but the Crusades are a similar actC    and the damned Nazis all thought they were Christian (you aren'ti     expected to agree with them).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:30:31 +0100h& From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <3B9FB7D7.7A69B21@aerosys.co.uk>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >    > $ > Again.  Stuff "measured" response. > C > Of course, you have (by now) noticed the contradiction between mysN > statements.  That is, we share blame for the conditions that may have led usB > to this point, yet our reaction to it should be swift and harsh. > N > There is a time for introspection (later).  To try and understand the reasonI > why so many of these people hate the U.S. - at least the actions of ourf
 > government.t > M > There is a time for action (now).  Because you cannot let an action such as N > this stand.  The reaction must be swift, harsh, and be clear that the PEOPLEM > of the United States, not just it's sometimes misguided government will not  > tolerate certain things.  M So what you are effectively saying is: "Lets go out and kill loads of people,gP irrespective of whether they are guilty or not" ?, or because we just don't like them or their belief system.    K Can't really believe you are serious. Civilised nations fought WWII to stopdK people with attitudes like that. If the so called civilised nations want to8J occupy the moral high ground, they can only do it by setting a much better	 example. i  O How much more "collateral damage" in the wars of ideology does there have to benD before people learn to sit down, talk and understand each other ?...   Chrisl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:57:29 -0700i' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>u( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <3B9FBE29.E7298C12@caltech.edu>o   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  ) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:n >dD > > Nobody (even the fire dept) expected these buildings to collapseI > > completely and supposedly internal building stress indicators did not H > > indicate a fatal integrity problem immediately after the collisions.I > > The same engineer said that if you wanted to bring the whole buildinghG > > down with more  certainty they should have crashed much lower down.  > G > See an article on the BBC web site. Basically, a number of structural J > engineers say they are surprised the towers held out that long. As notedH > elsewhere, the fire weakened the steel structural supports in spite ofH > their concrete cover, specifically put there in case of fire. Also, itK > was commented that the high hits made it impossible for the NYFD to fightr > the fires effectively.  L I give the folks who designed this building very high marks.  Each tower was able to absorbH an airliner collision without immediate failure.  How many buildings can make that claim?H The towers would probably have stood forever even after the crash if the collisions had notK also dumped thousands of gallons of burning jet fuel into the inside of theT building.  The steel pillarsF were wrapped in enough cement to withstand what the engineers expected might be a severe fire, andeJ ]they did stand up for a remarkably long time to the jet fuel .  ISo there  was enough time for thousands ofL people to walk down 70 or more floors and get out of the building before the	 collapse.r  K This suggests to me that skyscrapers should have water cooling pipes buriedw deep within the concreteL near the structural steel.  These would normally be empty (to avoid possible corrosion problems) but couldnL be filled when needed to keep the steel cool in case of a fire.  Connect theJ tubes in big loops running through radiators and you might even be able toL keep most of the fluid below boiling point, and dump the heat to the outsideJ of the building via convection.  As we saw yesterday, even if it only keptH the building up an extra  hour or so that could easily be the difference( between a full and a partial evacuation.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:08:36 -0400h5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center0 Message-ID: <DhPn7.147$YP.7788@news.cpqcorp.net>  ; ChrisQ wrote in message <3B9FB7D7.7A69B21@aerosys.co.uk>...  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:o >> >f >>% >> Again.  Stuff "measured" response.n >>D >> Of course, you have (by now) noticed the contradiction between myL >> statements.  That is, we share blame for the conditions that may have led usC >> to this point, yet our reaction to it should be swift and harsh.y >>H >> There is a time for introspection (later).  To try and understand the reasonJ >> why so many of these people hate the U.S. - at least the actions of our >> government. >>K >> There is a time for action (now).  Because you cannot let an action such3 asH >> this stand.  The reaction must be swift, harsh, and be clear that the PEOPLEJ >> of the United States, not just it's sometimes misguided government will not' >> tolerate certain things.d >VF >So what you are effectively saying is: "Lets go out and kill loads of people,oL >irrespective of whether they are guilty or not" ?, or because we just don't like >them or their belief system.i >s    I Who suggested I didn't agree with their belief system?  I said NOTHING of K the sort.  I'm suggesting that if you protect those who kill my friends and.E neighbors, you may share in the consequences.  I don't care if you'rea TeleTubbies.  G We killed "loads" of people in WWII who were "innocent".  Arguably MOST  people in a war are innocent.g  J Please dispute the fact that a certain number of well known countries playB the game of supporting, and harboring terrorists.  The responsibleH "terrorist" can come forward, spare any consequences to his host, and beJ dealt with.  Or we can demand that they be handed over, or that their hostL will then pay the consequences.  The consequences of being a party to an act of war.t  / Do less.  All you will get is more of the same.   L >Can't really believe you are serious. Civilised nations fought WWII to stopL >people with attitudes like that. If the so called civilised nations want toK >occupy the moral high ground, they can only do it by setting a much better-	 >example.- >-    - Horse pucky.  Comparing this to WWII is crap.p  J Nobody in *this* conflict has the high ground.  Nor will turning the other+ cheek get anything other than another slap.1  J >How much more "collateral damage" in the wars of ideology does there have to belE >before people learn to sit down, talk and understand each other ?...  >-    G Nor will the terrorism stop by having everyone appear on Oprah and holdB hands singing Kumbaya.  ? Bill Clinton spent much of his Presidency trying to "solve" theoK Israel/Palestinian problem.  So did Carter.  We (the US) spent considerablerJ time "talking" and trying to find common ground between two positions thatF appear to unresolvable.  But apparently there is no middle ground.  ToJ support one side means that you must oppose the other.  There is no way toI sit down with those who practice terrorism (on any side).  The only thingm5 you can do is hunt them down and kill them like dogs.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:44:48 +0100c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3B9FC93F.2D17EC75@virgin.net>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  G > See an article on the BBC web site. Basically, a number of structuralwJ > engineers say they are surprised the towers held out that long. As noted >w  H Easy for them to say that in hindsight but supposedly the building *was*K designed to withstand an aircraft hit. In that case not taking into accountlJ burning fuel made all their calculations useless. If all the engineers nowL are surprised that it stayed up that long then why didn't they point out the9 flaw in assuming a plane without fuel in the first place?i  J The collapse of floors onto the weakened, heated steel below obviously wasH the trigger for the partial collapse but the implication I took from theL early analysis I saw was that the steel tube design then ensured the partialD collapse turned into an immediate catastrophic failure of the entireJ structure. I wish I noted the engineer's name as, considering he seemed toK know the readings of building stress indicators after the collision, he maycH have even been a building employee who might not speak so freely now. HeJ could also have just been exaggerating his knowledge for effect. I have no way of knowing.i    H > elsewhere, the fire weakened the steel structural supports in spite ofH > their concrete cover, specifically put there in case of fire. Also, itK > was commented that the high hits made it impossible for the NYFD to fightr > the fires effectively. >n
 >         Janr   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:58:03 +0100r& From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center- Message-ID: <3B9FCC5B.5224DE5E@aerosys.co.uk>(   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  > The only thing7 > you can do is hunt them down and kill them like dogs.l  O I wouldn't argue with that, but let's make sure we get the guilty people, righttP ?. Just think, how would you feel if it was _your_ family who became "collateralM damage", as all those poor souls in NY have effectively become ?. I wonder ift4 you would still be beating the drum so loud then ?.   P Of course, it's easy to sit in your armchair and when you can just fire a cruiseP missile against civilians from 200 miles away, then see it on CNN in a sanitisedL fashion, without having to actually experience the horror of it. Eventually,L when enough bodies have been counted, all parties in a war must sit down andO compromise. It's getting to that stage in Northern Ireland finally (Through theoM efforts of men of good will) and it will happen in the Middle East one day aso well.n  N To be honest, shouldn't even be posting now. Everyone I know here in the UK isH still in a state of shock about the events of the past couple of days...   Chrisr   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Sep 2001 23:41:25 GMT# From: casinoop2@aol.com (CasinoOp2)t, Subject: Pathworks, Advanced Server issue...9 Message-ID: <20010912194125.28363.00000245@mb-md.aol.com>t  K There must be someone out there that can answer this question. On my Alpha  K OpenVMS system, Advanced Server process aborts. The following is in the loga file pwrk$lmsrv_vnc2.log...a  $ PPS_jdb_open: Could not read header!L 12-SEP-2001 10:25:35.02 00000237:007325C0 PPS Initialization failure: Cannot read job database!N PANIC: aborting from module AS$BLD_ROOT:[AS.UTIL.SRC]PPS_UTIL.C;1 at line 105! %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
     .........p    I Any idea what's going wrong here? I am at my wits end.  Any help would be  appreciated!      Clark Calkins, programmer    Schafer Corph    ccalkins@schaferLabs.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:23:10 +0400t4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> Subject: Re: Protected context0 Message-ID: <3B9FA80E.A176BE7F@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > k > In article <3B9F23C8.2EC32D61@gtech.com>, Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> writes:i > > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:a > >>         I working on some kind of application which use an external modules (shared library)tW > >> to implement some specific actions. A main process (server) called a routines with.U > >> some kind of context area. I'd like to protect this context area from changes by $ > >> routines from external modules. > >>8 > >>         Is there any tips an triks which I can use? > >n
 > > One idea:  > >   - setup context area2 > >   - call sys$setprt to change protection to UR > >   - call external routiner7 > >   - call sys$setprt to change protection back to UWa > B > To be more secure than that you would have to use an inner mode.B > There are many ways to misprogram use of an inner mode such that4 > the program works but is not actually more secure. > C > Perhaps putting the untrusted code in a subprocess would be best. A 	Agreed, but in my case it's multithreaded by DEC Threads server.t   --   Cheers, Ruslan.t? +----------------pure personal opinion------------------------+ 9     RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.como6       vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS)                 Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2001 01:44:28 GMTr' From: "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>t Subject: Rape me!t' Message-ID: <1ug8in$5up$4@64.229.82.98>e  A Young 30's loud-mouthed faggot with a shitty attitude and general A contempt for apathetic, Lexus-worshipping, Republican pretty boyseD seeks same or younger GWM for obnoxious fun times. I am a versatile,D uninhibited guy who loves fucking outside in the woods, in the dirt,> in the mud, in the yard, on the hood of your mother's car and,? sometimes, the occasional garbage bin. Oh yeah... I'm into loud(? noises while doing it. There's nothing like scaring the horses,a or the neighbors.h  = I'm not a '10' and am not seeking one. In fact I despise suchiB creatures unless you're married and there's a remote chance that ID can ruin your marriage.  General interests include church vandalism,A fucking and then 'outing' closeted members of the clergy, burningiE tires on the lawns of politicians,  nice long walks on the beach witheF a gun, late-night camp fires on the front steps of trendy night clubs,D fucking with cab drivers, making fun of hippies and playing "scratch the Mercedes."  F The possibility of a companion is not as interesting to me as the ideaE of a fuck-buddy who's into face-sitting, cock-slapping, butt-licking,aG ball-chewing, hair-pulling good times with a scratch or two to remembereC each other by. Sitting on someone's face is one of my favorite yoga B positions. All things sexual are negotiable. I live in the area ofB Chcago Illinois and would prefer not to travel much outside of theB general Chicago area. However, if you have red hair I'm willing toF travel to say, Prague. Twinks, gym bunnies and other Narcissistic bodyG nazis please don't bother responding to this ad as I will only laugh atoA you and make you feel even more inadequate. If this 'no bullshit'sG attitude of mine sounds interesting to you then I encourage you to dropd. me an email and we can discuss things further.   Adam H. Kerman ahk@chinet.com      6 Don't try to compile frantically while you're moaning 6 alongside a bright desktop.  Some ethernets confront, 8 disrupt, and proliferate.  Hey, robots transport around 6 unlimited data centers, unless they're opaque.  Where 9 Wayne's rough mouse kills, Pilar filters in wet, chaotic t4 backups.  Other insecure loud governments will wash C globally with printers.  We start the resilient Usenet.  It's very o3 major today, I'll question lovingly or Simone will  > distribute the UDPs.  These days, go preserve a ActiveX!  The 5 untouched package rarely insulates Grover, it smiles  = Patrice instead.  It disappeared, you pulled, yet Jeff never r5 wistfully dreamed in the module.  No lower engineers E5 place Austin, and they unbelievably kick Linda too.  i6 Almost no blank laptop or email, and she'll partially 4 contradict everybody.  Janet will eventually engulf = within Rob when the out of date advisors obscure outside the  6 robust database.  Almost no secret upper newbies will 5 quietly annoy the algorithms.  Hardly any worthwhile r5 pathetic frauds mercilessly corrupt as the new ISDNs  : vend.  I was crawling to restore you some of my discarded 3 ROMs.  One more slow PERLs are important and other -: cold functions are junk, but will Oscar defeat that?  Who 4 defiles rigidly, when Willy creates the huge rumour D around the frame relay?  My lazy tablet won't authenticate before I : connect it.  While interrupts wickedly exclude MPEGs, the 5 chatrooms often slump to the sharp enigmas.  She may l? persevere hard LANs for the abysmal overloaded doorway, whilst  E Alvin nearly examines them too.  To be extreme or surreptitious will h: propagate weak cryptographers to freely interface.  Let's 3 manage over the solid signals, but don't train the e3 stupid warnings.  He should happily push in filthy -6 violent FBIs.  Hey, Evan never disconnects until Zack 9 formats the powerful backup finally.  Al, still posting, o: spools almost biweekly, as the interface deletes at their ; IPaddr.  Try busting the web server's cosmetic archive and u5 Sheri will tolerate you!  They are substantiating on cC dry, beside bronze, with weird zipdisks.  Are you untamed, I mean, a6 twisting behind rogue opinions?  Nowadays, it dumps a 3 scanner too unclassified beside her secure arena.  .4 Toni!  You'll outwit clients.  Gawd, I'll relay the 8 keyhole.  Vincent wants to burst finitely, unless Kathy 9 opens protocols outside Gregory's Pascal.  Otherwise the e6 sattelite phone in Ronnie's webmaster might type some 7 idiotic texts.  Pamela loads the artichoke in hers and t4 weekly prioritizes.  Gilbert will recycle the stuck + rebel and learn it on its complaint desk.  i   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:05:02 -0500/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)nM Subject: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) - Message-ID: <$Em4oK6JFwrg@cuebid.zko.dec.com>f  + Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> writes:o > Bill Todd wrote: >> gI >> Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significanteM >> portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing thatgO >> release's successful creation (even though his management style could take ae >> toll on others).  >> n	 >> - billo > D > Dave also personally wrote a lot of the SMP code for VMS, from his? > office in ZSO; after Dick had said that VMS was ASMP forever.0H > I contend that the SMPization of VMS is the work of a real programmer.  C Perhaps, but in a very quick (3 minute) search of the listings frombF V5.0 in the [SYS] facility, Cutler's name does not show up in the editB history (yes, I'm aware that support was latent in V4.7, but thoseK listings aren't currently available).  At the time that SMP was being addedn< (1985 through 1988), I believe he was working with Prism.     @ Yes, the SMPization of VMS was the work of real programmers, but' Cutler (apparently) wasn't one of them.t   -- s  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:10:42 -0400w5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> Q Subject: Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)c0 Message-ID: <DjPn7.148$YP.7936@news.cpqcorp.net>  @ Rob Brooks wrote in message <$Em4oK6JFwrg@cuebid.zko.dec.com>..., >Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> writes: >> Bill Todd wrote:i >>> J >>> Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significantI >>> portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managings thatI >>> release's successful creation (even though his management style couldt take a >>> toll on others). >>>o
 >>> - bill >>E >> Dave also personally wrote a lot of the SMP code for VMS, from hisi@ >> office in ZSO; after Dick had said that VMS was ASMP forever.I >> I contend that the SMPization of VMS is the work of a real programmer.j >fD >Perhaps, but in a very quick (3 minute) search of the listings fromG >V5.0 in the [SYS] facility, Cutler's name does not show up in the edit C >history (yes, I'm aware that support was latent in V4.7, but thosebL >listings aren't currently available).  At the time that SMP was being added: >(1985 through 1988), I believe he was working with Prism. >nA >Yes, the SMPization of VMS was the work of real programmers, butC( >Cutler (apparently) wasn't one of them. >h    L Don't believe what the listings might imply.  From what I understand, it was Dave indeed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:42:38 -0700y# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>uQ Subject: RE: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)r9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEJODEAA.tom@kednos.com>h  L From 78 to sometime around 81 82 Dave worked on porting our PL/I compiler to the VAXFH wrote the VCG (of which GEM is the historical issue), but looking at the listingsJ you would think that it was all done by Heinen,  which of course isn't the case   > -----Original Message-----< > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]- > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:11 PMe > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComiI > Subject: Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (nos > surprise)e >d >sB > Rob Brooks wrote in message <$Em4oK6JFwrg@cuebid.zko.dec.com>.... > >Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> writes: > >> Bill Todd wrote:s > >>>eL > >>> Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significantK > >>> portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing  > thatK > >>> release's successful creation (even though his management style couldd > take a > >>> toll on others). > >>>t > >>> - bill > >>G > >> Dave also personally wrote a lot of the SMP code for VMS, from hissB > >> office in ZSO; after Dick had said that VMS was ASMP forever.K > >> I contend that the SMPization of VMS is the work of a real programmer.b > >eF > >Perhaps, but in a very quick (3 minute) search of the listings fromI > >V5.0 in the [SYS] facility, Cutler's name does not show up in the edit E > >history (yes, I'm aware that support was latent in V4.7, but thosegB > >listings aren't currently available).  At the time that SMP was
 > being added < > >(1985 through 1988), I believe he was working with Prism. > >MC > >Yes, the SMPization of VMS was the work of real programmers, buta* > >Cutler (apparently) wasn't one of them. > >  >e > ; > Don't believe what the listings might imply.  From what Io > understand, it was > Dave indeed. >e >s >  >  >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:59:56 GMT ) From: Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> Q Subject: Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)t, Message-ID: <3B9FCCE4.663D6DB6@mediaone.net>   Rob Brooks wrote:v > - > Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> writes:t > > Bill Todd wrote: > >>K > >> Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significantyO > >> portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing thatsQ > >> release's successful creation (even though his management style could take ai > >> toll on others).  > >> > >> - bill  > >eF > > Dave also personally wrote a lot of the SMP code for VMS, from hisA > > office in ZSO; after Dick had said that VMS was ASMP forever.uJ > > I contend that the SMPization of VMS is the work of a real programmer. > E > Perhaps, but in a very quick (3 minute) search of the listings fromeH > V5.0 in the [SYS] facility, Cutler's name does not show up in the editD > history (yes, I'm aware that support was latent in V4.7, but thoseM > listings aren't currently available).  At the time that SMP was being addedb; > (1985 through 1988), I believe he was working with Prism.n > B > Yes, the SMPization of VMS was the work of real programmers, but) > Cutler (apparently) wasn't one of them.y  E Dave was not part of the VMS group at that time, and probably did not D have direct access to check out the source code.  Dave had a listingB (hard copy, many feet high) in his ZSO office, and manually markedI up that listing (with, IIRC, a red pencil) with his proposed SMP changes.a  F I suspect he mailed the listing back to ZKO, but it would have been inH character to personally and loudly deposit the marked-up listing on some well-chosen ZKO desk.d --   Cheers, Bobe   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:03:38 -0400i* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>Q Subject: Re: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)g) Message-ID: <3B9FCDAA.7020508@compaq.com>    Tom Linden wrote:dN > From 78 to sometime around 81 82 Dave worked on porting our PL/I compiler to	 > the VAXoJ > wrote the VCG (of which GEM is the historical issue), but looking at the
 > listingsL > you would think that it was all done by Heinen,  which of course isn't the > case >   G Very little, if any, of the design or implementation of GEM comes from tH the VCG other than knowing what to avoid.  The many phases of the first H release of GEM had links back to many places.  The flow analyzer looked E similar to VAX Fortran's.  The code generator and register allocator mG looked much like that in VAX Pascal (neither VAX Fortran or VAX Pascal xI use the VCG).  Of course, GEM modified them to deal with generating RISC e code vs VAX.   -- n John Reagans' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadero   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:05:24 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>Y5 Subject: Re: VMS Itanium port speeded up. Tru64 dies.a' Message-ID: <3BA00654.211D491E@fsi.net>-   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > 1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e > M > > > Quite to the contrary - having triple-architecture clusters is good forE > > > exposing the bugs.J > > I don't see houw your statement is "to the contrary" at all.  The factL > > that they decide not to support a configuration does not mean they won'tI > > use it internally.  They want to discover bugs internally, but not iny& > > supported external configurations. > M > Well OK - let's say half and half. Customer testing always has more breadthl& > and is more likely to find problems.  D Most folks call it "general release' or something similar. I call it
 "gamma test".e   -- l David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:27:37 GMTm& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centera> Message-ID: <JbSn7.143819$aZ.21076771@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  3 "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messageb$ news:3B9F92B9.CA220D04@dplanet.ch...  J > The problem is of course that US foreign policy towards the mid-east hasI > angered many countries, in particular Palestine.  They see US policy as-H > being strongly biased towards Israel, especially in the refusal of theF > US to condemn Israel for some of its actions.  The recent walkout ofD > Israel and the US from the conference on racism only adds to this. >c  I I agree with a lot of what you said, however  in the above quote, you aresK taking one of those "Blame America First" attitudes that rile up so many ofdJ us "rednecks". The American policy that you say angers Palistinians (whichJ by the way, is not a country) is the policy that says we will not let themK kill all Isrealis and eliminate the state of Israel..  That is their statedoI goal, and unless we back off and let them do that, then they are going tonK hate us.  So what do we do?  Do we back off and let them kill the Isrealis?fL Or do we stand up for what is right?  Believe me, it would be to our benefitK to side with the Arabs and get their oil, but that would be wrong.  I don't.J have any great love for  Isreal either, but they have a right to live, and* we have a moral obligation to defend them.  K The Arabs have set the the rules.  You are either for them or against them.=G Since we are not for them they hate us and will try to kill us.  Do you / agree that we have the right to defend ourself?h   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:30:36 GMTi& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd> Message-ID: <weSn7.143821$aZ.21081155@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  I The U.S.A did not cause the hate in the Islamic world.  The hate has beennI there for a thousand years.   It is just wating to be unleashed on anyonexF that trys to prevent them from destroying Isreal. (of course I realizeL Isreal is only around 60 years old, but the hate of Jews has been there long before Isreal was established).   2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9no5de$adh$1@pyrite.mv.net... >eK > "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> wrote in message news:3b9f39e8$1@hcwe67...p2 > > I hope, that 2 things happen at the same time: > >tF > > 1) Those responsible for this act can be hunted down and punished.F > > 2) USA starts thinking about, how it can cause so much hate in the islamic-	 > > world 5 > >     may be there could something be changed, too.o > >  > > regardss > >-	 > > JakobI >r1 > Thank you for putting it so simply and so well.1 >2 > - bill >- >- >- >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:42:47 -0400<' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>s Subject: Re: World Trade Center8( Message-ID: <9novbu$749$1@pyrite.mv.net>  1 "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messagec8 news:weSn7.143821$aZ.21081155@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...K > The U.S.A did not cause the hate in the Islamic world.  The hate has been K > there for a thousand years.   It is just wating to be unleashed on anyone H > that trys to prevent them from destroying Isreal. (of course I realizeI > Isreal is only around 60 years old, but the hate of Jews has been therer long! > before Isreal was established).'  H My limited acquaintance with the history of the region strongly suggestsG that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.  But I'll let peoplea* better-educated in this area address that.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:51:41 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh( Message-ID: <9novsk$7mn$1@pyrite.mv.net>  1 "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message 8 news:JbSn7.143819$aZ.21076771@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...   ...f  = > The American policy that you say angers Palistinians (whichuL > by the way, is not a country) is the policy that says we will not let them6 > kill all Isrealis and eliminate the state of Israel.  K Pure and utter horse-shit.  The American policy that angers them is support.K for Israeli oppression in the occupied territories:  no, of course we don't L explicitly encourage oppression, but neither do we come out strongly against@ it, nor have we withdrawn our support for those who practice it.   .  That is their statedrK > goal, and unless we back off and let them do that, then they are going toyC > hate us.  So what do we do?  Do we back off and let them kill theu	 Isrealis?t  L It seems to have escaped your notice that something like three times as manyH Palestinians as Israelis have been getting killed.  In WWII such actionsB were termed 'reprisals', and were generally not viewed positively.  & > Or do we stand up for what is right?  L We certainly ought to be standing up for what is right, which is a return toI the peace process that was going along with great promise until Rabin wasfK assassinated by a right-wing Israeli and the country veered to the right as 0 a result (just what the assassin had hoped for).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:58:46 +0200e& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centera* Message-ID: <3BA03D05.7EF20CB2@dplanet.ch>   Bill Todd wrote: > 3 > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messaget: > news:JbSn7.143819$aZ.21076771@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com... >  > ...i > ? > > The American policy that you say angers Palistinians (whichlN > > by the way, is not a country) is the policy that says we will not let them8 > > kill all Isrealis and eliminate the state of Israel. > M > Pure and utter horse-shit.  The American policy that angers them is supportoM > for Israeli oppression in the occupied territories:  no, of course we don'tsN > explicitly encourage oppression, but neither do we come out strongly againstB > it, nor have we withdrawn our support for those who practice it. >  > .  That is their statedwM > > goal, and unless we back off and let them do that, then they are going to'E > > hate us.  So what do we do?  Do we back off and let them kill thee > Isrealis?  > N > It seems to have escaped your notice that something like three times as manyJ > Palestinians as Israelis have been getting killed.  In WWII such actionsD > were termed 'reprisals', and were generally not viewed positively. > ( > > Or do we stand up for what is right? > N > We certainly ought to be standing up for what is right, which is a return toK > the peace process that was going along with great promise until Rabin waslM > assassinated by a right-wing Israeli and the country veered to the right ase2 > a result (just what the assassin had hoped for). >  > - bill    C You can add to this the fact that the US has refused to support therG proposal for a UN Peace-keeping mission in Israel and more recently theiF US an Israel walked out of the conferrence on racism when a motion was9 raised condemming Israel's attitude towards Palestinians.s  G These actions by the US are not even-handed as any role to broker peace 
 should be.  H Unfortunately the Mid-east situation and others around the world all getE back to a larger issue of resorting to violence to solve problems andt> disputes rather than calm and rational discussion.  Sure theseD discussions are not easy but the alternative is far more unpleasant.     John   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.509 ************************ooks)nM Subject: SMP and Cutler (Was: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) - Message-ID: <$Em4oK6JFwrg@cuebid.zko.dec.com>f  + Bob Willard <bobwbsgs@mediaone.net> writes:o > Bill Todd wrote: >> gI >> Cutler wasn't a tech writer, of course, but he did write a significanteM >> portion of the VMS V1 kernel code and was a pivotal force in managing thatgO >> release's successful creation (even though his management style could take ae >> toll on others).  >> n	 >> - billo > D > Dave also pers