1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 14 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 512       Contents: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York CDRECORD & Plextor 12/10/32S! DECWindows won't start on console % Re: DECWindows won't start on console  DNPG and HP Network Products' RE: Government Securities Clearing Corp 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)  JNI on VMS - Link Problem  Re: JNI on VMS - Link Problem  Re: JNI on VMS - Link Problem  LAT PRINTER - THANKS TO ALL  memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channelG My OpenVMS web procedures, was Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???  New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # RE: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file # Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file  Re: OpenVMS + HP+ Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center   Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMS programming rms file system  re: programming rms file system , Re: Q-Bus device compatibility DRQ3B - DRQ11 Re: Rape me! Re: Rape me! Re: Rape me! Re: rcp adds linefeeds? C Re: Reading an application log file.... how does search/type do it? 0 Re: remove  DQA0 drivers (EIDE disks) from VMS ? Searching CDA$READ_ANAlYSIS.EXE 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) % Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache % Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache % Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache % Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache  Test' Tokyo: Selling/trading Motif X Terminal 9 Tokyo: Selling/trading VAX workstation (VMS, Ultrix, BSD) ) Re: usage create/term/window!!!!!!!!!!!!!  VAX 7000's End of Life Date ( Re: VAX 7800 Systems or CPUs needed ASAP  VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer$ Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer$ Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer$ Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center WTC and High Availabilty Re: WTC and High AvailabiltyI Re: [OpenVMS V7.2-1] SHOW USER/SUB sometimes doesn't show allsubprocesses   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:22:44 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>  Subject: Bank of New York + Message-ID: <3BA220C4.BFFD163E@caltech.edu>   E Last night the head of one of the Bond trading houses was on the news # and after he said that  his company E were now operating out if its backup site, he noted that things could E have been worse, citing the Bank of New York as having  lost both its G primary and secondary sites during the attack and was now operating out H of a third site.  Anyone know the details on this? Seems odd that anyoneG would put the secondary site within 100 miles of the primary.  Maybe he 7 was referring to office locations and not data centers?   E Seems like there must be an awful lot of companies right now spending ! $$$ building new secondary sites.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:27:30 -0400  From: William_Bochnik@acml.com Subject: Re: Bank of New York > Message-ID: <OFEEB729A1.52512FE1-ON85256AC7.0054C80B@acml.com>  J I'd be interested as well - my wife was unable to do any banking with themI since the incident - we were half jokingly commenting yesterday "Sure put I primaries in tower 1 and backups in tower 2 - they'd never both be out at ; the same time..." - seriously anyone have any info on this?       a                                                                                                   a                     David Mathog                                                                  a                     <mathog@calte                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                       a                     ch.edu>                      cc:                                              a                                          Subject:     Bank of New York                            a                     09/14/2001                                                                    a                     11:22 AM                                                                      a                                                                                                   a                                                                                                         E Last night the head of one of the Bond trading houses was on the news # and after he said that  his company E were now operating out if its backup site, he noted that things could E have been worse, citing the Bank of New York as having  lost both its G primary and secondary sites during the attack and was now operating out H of a third site.  Anyone know the details on this? Seems odd that anyoneG would put the secondary site within 100 miles of the primary.  Maybe he 7 was referring to office locations and not data centers?   E Seems like there must be an awful lot of companies right now spending ! $$$ building new secondary sites.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:19 -0400 4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq> Subject: Re: Bank of New York 4 Message-ID: <3BA22AFB.6070007@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   David Mathog wrote: G > Last night the head of one of the Bond trading houses was on the news % > and after he said that  his company G > were now operating out if its backup site, he noted that things could G > have been worse, citing the Bank of New York as having  lost both its E > primary and secondary sites during the attack and was now operating G > out of a third site.  Anyone know the details on this? Seems odd that F > anyone would put the secondary site within 100 miles of the primary.B > Maybe he was referring to office locations and not data centers?  > As they are running, it does appear that they had a good plan.  E You note that they had a third site.  Having a third or forth remote  F backup site allows the secondary site to be closer to the primary for G convenience.  Most computer center dissasters are much more locallized   than what happened here.  C Communication lines have proven to be the weakest link for typical  D problems.  Having separate paths for them may be more important thanC physical distance for the most common reasons a backup system would G be needed.  Electrical outages are next on the list, including someone  ) accidentally pressing the big red button.   A I would not be surprised if many companies did not have more than - three sites that can handle their processing.   G > Seems like there must be an awful lot of companies right now spending # > $$$ building new secondary sites.   D While it will likely get more focused.  I think that those companiesA that need this type of backup already have their alternate sites.   ; It is more likely that they are reviewing their procedures.   E In the end, it is people that make the dissaster plans work, not the  G technology.  And this is a tragedy that will effect all of us for some  
 time to come.   / The machines and the buildings can be replaced.    -John  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:58:00 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: Bank of New York @ Message-ID: <20010914165800.92426.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>  1 I believe nowadays it is better to install remote  sites 2 really remote: with NAFTA a company can install=206 secondary sites in Canada or Mexico. Mexican companies4 can install secondary sites in Canada because of the3 earthquakes for example. The companies are becoming / global and the telecommunications resources are  cheaper than 10 years ago....      Regards    FC=20 # --- William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:  >=206 > I'd be interested as well - my wife was unable to do > any banking with them , > since the incident - we were half jokingly  > commenting yesterday "Sure put6 > primaries in tower 1 and backups in tower 2 - they'd > never both be out at4 > the same time..." - seriously anyone have any info
 > on this? >=20 >=20 >=208 >                                                    =200 >                                            =208 >                     David Mathog                   =200 >                                            =206 >                     <mathog@calte                To:0 >  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                     =206 >                     ch.edu>                      cc:0 >                                            =208 >                                          Subject:  =200 >  Bank of New York                          =208 >                     09/14/2001                     =200 >                                            =208 >                     11:22 AM                       =200 >                                            =208 >                                                    =200 >                                            =208 >                                                    =200 >                                            =20 >=20 >=20 >=200 > Last night the head of one of the Bond trading > houses was on the news% > and after he said that  his company 5 > were now operating out if its backup site, he noted  > that things could 1 > have been worse, citing the Bank of New York as  > having  lost both its 3 > primary and secondary sites during the attack and  > was now operating out 4 > of a third site.  Anyone know the details on this? > Seems odd that anyone 6 > would put the secondary site within 100 miles of the > primary.  Maybe he0 > was referring to office locations and not data
 > centers? >=204 > Seems like there must be an awful lot of companies > right now spending# > $$$ building new secondary sites.  >=20
 > Regards, >=20 > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief information 7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:33:27 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>  Subject: Re: Bank of New York + Message-ID: <3BA23F67.E12427D1@caltech.edu>    John Malmberg wrote:   > F > While it will likely get more focused.  I think that those companiesC > that need this type of backup already have their alternate sites.  >   E They had alternate sites on Monday.  Today their alternatie sites are  their primary sites.H They either need a new primary or a new secondary, but either way, there are probably a lot5 of folks right now with all their eggs in one basket.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:00:51 +0100 - From: Martin Walker <Martin.Walker@csf.co.uk> % Subject: CDRECORD & Plextor 12/10/32S Q Message-ID: <0262A6086BFBD411959500508B69C5EA134858@london_exch.london.csf.co.uk>   J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13D2E.0B96D9B0  Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   H Have replaced my ageing Sony CDU926S CD writer with a new Plextor 12/10= /32   CD/RW device (model PX-W1210TSe)  H I've connected the Plextor to an Ultra-SCSI controller (KZPCA-CA) but g= et the error message as below...   / AS5050::> cdrecord -speed 12 dev=3D2,4,0 -dummy   disk$stage_disk:[000000]vda3.dsk? Cdrecord release 1.8a9 Copyright (C) 1995-1998 J=F6rg Schilling F $1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: Cannot set priority on this OS.: $1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: Fifo not supported. scsidev: '2,4,0' scsibus: 2 target: 4 lun: 0 ! Device type    : Removable CD-ROM  Version        : 2 Response Format: 2 Capabilities   : SYNC LINKED   Vendor_info    : 'PLEXTOR ' # Identifikation : 'CD-R   PX-W1210S'  Revision       : '1.03' & Device seems to be: Generic mmc CD-RW./ Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr).  Driver flags   : SWABAUDIOF Starting to write CD/DVD at speed 12 in dummy mode for single session.7 Last chance to quit, starting dummy write in 1 seconds. C Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 2562048/2562048 (1251 sectors). H $1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: i/o error. close track/session: = scsi send cmd: retryable error# CDB:  5B 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  status: 0x2 (CHECK CONDITION) B Sense Bytes: 70 00 09 00 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 80 01 00 00 00 00' Sense Key: 0x9 Vendor Unique, Segment 0 H Sense Code: 0x80 Qual 0x01 (invalid sense code 0x80) [No matching quali= fier]  Fru   0x0 Sense flags: Blk 0 (not valid)  & cmd finished after 0.001s timeout 480s
 AS5050::>   ) If I let it write, I get another coaster.   H If I try speed 2 (the same as I use on the Sony) I get the same result.=  8 Also, if I connect it to a KZPAA the result is the same.  H Looking back through past posts I see several readers of cov use Plexto= r % drives so though it was a "safe" bet.   H The drive is supposed to be burn-proof - is it (this version of) CDRECO= RDH which doesn't support it?  Is there a burn proof version of CDRECORD fo= r  VMS?  H I've tried setting the "BLOCK" jumper to both off and on with no change=  in  result.   H More info... VMS 7.3; AlphaStation 433au; this is the only device on th= e 	 SCSI bus.   H I note also that the Plextor will not mount "ordinary" VMS CDs wheras t= he Sony is fine...  $mount dkc400:/ov=3Did% %MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format     Any assistance much appreciated!      A This e-mail including any attachments is confidential and may be  F legally privileged. If you have received it in error please advise the@ sender immediately by return email and then delete it from your  system. B The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this F email is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the  help desk on (+44)(0)870 8704820' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13D2E.0B96D9B0  Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablen  1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">a <HTML> <HEAD>H <XETA HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8= 859-1">sH <XETA NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653= 12">/ <TITLE>CDRECORD &amp; Plextor 12/10/32S</TITLE>g </HEAD>e <BODY>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Have replaced my ageing Sony CDU926S CD writer with a==  new Plextor 12/10/32 CD/RW device (model PX-W1210TSe)</FONT>  </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've connected the Plextor to an Ultra-SCSI controlle=9 r (KZPCA-CA) but get the error message as below...</FONT>  </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>AS5050::&gt; cdrecord -speed 12 dev=3D2,4,0 -dummy di=% sk$stage_disk:[000000]vda3.dsk</FONT>hH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cdrecord release 1.8a9 Copyright (C) 1995-1998 J=F6r= g Schilling</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>$1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: Cannot set pr= iority on this OS.</FONT>nH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>$1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: Fifo not supp=
 orted.</FONT> * <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>scsidev: '2,4,0'</FONT>5 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>scsibus: 2 target: 4 lun: 0</FONT>uH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Device type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Removable CD-ROM</FO= NT>nH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : = 2</FONT>, <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Response Format: 2</FONT>A <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Capabilities&nbsp;&nbsp; : SYNC LINKED </FONT> D <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Vendor_info&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 'PLEXTOR '</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Identifikation : 'CD-R&nbsp;&nbsp; PX-W1210S'</FONT>=  H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Revision&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : '1.03= '</FONT>@ <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Device seems to be: Generic mmc CD-RW.</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr).</FON= T>> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Driver flags&nbsp;&nbsp; : SWABAUDIO</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Starting to write CD/DVD at speed 12 in dummy mode f= or single session.</FONT>eH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Last chance to quit, starting dummy write in 1 secon=
 ds.</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 2562048/2562048 = (1251 sectors).</FONT>H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>$1$dkd500:[decps]cdrecord_alpha.exe;2: i/o error. cl=# ose track/session: scsi send</FONT>T. <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cmd: retryable error</FONT>B <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>CDB:&nbsp; 5B 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00</FONT>7 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>status: 0x2 (CHECK CONDITION)</FONT>rH <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sense Bytes: 70 00 09 00 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 80 = 01 00 00 00 00</FONT> A <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sense Key: 0x9 Vendor Unique, Segment 0</FONT> H <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sense Code: 0x80 Qual 0x01 (invalid sense code 0x80)=#  [No matching qualifier] Fru</FONT>e# <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;0x0</FONT>V9 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sense flags: Blk 0 (not valid) </FONT>l@ <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cmd finished after 0.001s timeout 480s</FONT>' <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>AS5050::&gt; </FONT>e </P>  B <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If I let it write, I get another coaster.</FONT> </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If I try speed 2 (the same as I use on the Sony) I ge=H t the same result.&nbsp; Also, if I connect it to a KZPAA the result is=  the same.</FONT></P>a  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Looking back through past posts I see several readers=H  of cov use Plextor drives so though it was a &quot;safe&quot; bet.</FO= NT>e </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The drive is supposed to be burn-proof - is it (this =H version of) CDRECORD which doesn't support it?&nbsp; Is there a burn pr=+ oof version of CDRECORD for VMS?</FONT></P>o  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've tried setting the &quot;BLOCK&quot; jumper to bo=. th off and on with no change in result.</FONT> </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>More info... VMS 7.3; AlphaStation 433au; this is the=$  only device on the SCSI bus.</FONT> </P>  H <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I note also that the Plextor will not mount &quot;ord=5 inary&quot; VMS CDs wheras the Sony is fine...</FONT>c0 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>$mount dkc400:/ov=3Did</FONT>? <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>%MOUNT-F-FORMAT, invalid media format</FONT>  </P>  9 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Any assistance much appreciated!</FONT>N </P>   </BODY>- </HTML>2  H <HTML><BODY><P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial" size=3D2>This e-mai=H l including any attachments is confidential and may be <BR>legally priv=H ileged. If you have received it in error please advise the<BR>sender im=H mediately by return email and then delete it from your <BR>system. <BR>=H The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this <BR>e=H mail is strictly forbidden. If you need assistance please contact the<B=7 R>help desk on (+44)(0)870 8704820</FONT></BODY></HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13D2E.0B96D9B0--    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:21:48 GMTt3 From: Catherine McKinney <catmckinney@icehouse.net> * Subject: DECWindows won't start on console, Message-ID: <3BA0512B.C73EFFC8@icehouse.net>  H I recently upgraded an AS1200 from VMS 7.1-1H1 to 7.21. After applying a@ couple of system patches DECWindows would no longer start on theF console. I was getting error messages that my globalsections parameterE was too low so I ran autogen and upped the amount. The error messageseH stopped and it appears that the DECWindows server process is running butH the console just comes up in character mode. I don't know too much aboutE DECWindows (obviously) and would appreciate some help on this matter. 
 Specifically:   F 1.  How does the system know whether to run DECWindows on the console?7 2.  Is there a setting somewhere that I need to change?    Thanks!    Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:30:24 +0200 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>. Subject: Re: DECWindows won't start on consoleG Message-ID: <3ba1b15a$0$22320$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   F "Catherine McKinney" <catmckinney@icehouse.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag& news:3BA0512B.C73EFFC8@icehouse.net...J > I recently upgraded an AS1200 from VMS 7.1-1H1 to 7.21. After applying aB > couple of system patches DECWindows would no longer start on theH > console. I was getting error messages that my globalsections parameterG > was too low so I ran autogen and upped the amount. The error messages J > stopped and it appears that the DECWindows server process is running butJ > the console just comes up in character mode. I don't know too much aboutG > DECWindows (obviously) and would appreciate some help on this matter.  > Specifically:  >kH > 1.  How does the system know whether to run DECWindows on the console?9 > 2.  Is there a setting somewhere that I need to change?n >e	 > Thanks!e >l > Jimi >S   Hi!d  2 Is the SYSGEN-Parameter "WINDOW_SYSTEM" set to 1 ?   regardse   Ren Schelbaum   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:51:52 -0700 (PDT)m. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>% Subject: DNPG and HP Network Products @ Message-ID: <20010914125152.34913.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>  , What do you imagine about the future of DNPG+ being a concurrent of HP Network Products ?w4 I think it is possibile for us to have HP Networking- hardware in a few months running in Alpha anda Proliant/Netserver machines.     Regardse   FC=20o   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DiL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Da F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilc fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?u) Donate cash, emergency relief informationo7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/o   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:26:42 -0600 (MDT)o" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>0 Subject: RE: Government Securities Clearing CorpF Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0109140918090.6391-100000@athena.csdco.com>   Larry,   No mention of VMS nor Compaq.   J Comdisco (disaster-recovery centers) was the featured company with mention; of SunGard, EMC, Storage Networks, and Computer Associates.v  G If indeed Government Securities Clearing Corp does the back office workoJ for the government securities market, the first NYC market to reopen, thenG VMS should be given billing, at least in the minds of those responsible  for holding things together.  
 John Nebel  & On 13 Sep 2001, Larry Kilgallen wrote:  m > In article <Pine.OSF.4.21.0109130959030.4729-100000@athena.csdco.com>, John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:w > >  > > Tom, > > N > > I haven't got to the hard copy WSJ which is delivered across town.  LookedK > > at the on-line version.  Just search on "comdisco" if you have an ID one > > www.wsj.com. >  > Could someone paraphrase it ?h >    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 03:34:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)- Message-ID: <87elpasx4e.fsf@prep.synonet.com>d  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:-  E > "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  > wrote in messageD > news:y47kv3xcen.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...  1 > > Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> writes:>  C > > > You'd probably know better than I.  This doesn't explain muchrA > > > about what he did at DEC between '76 and '88 or '89 when hed > > > left.M   > > - VAXELN > > - PRISM   oC > And DEC's first PL/1 compiler, I think (the back-end of which wasm3 > then used for one or more other languages, IIRC).n  @ VAXC in fact. As doced in the 'Beauty and the Beast' appendix inB the book on the project. Later on, used by SCAN as well as several others.    -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:09:22 -0500 + From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>a< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109140705590.27923-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  % On 14 Sep 2001, Paul Repacholi wrote:   + > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  > G > > "Jan Vorbrueggen" <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  > > wrote in messageF > > news:y47kv3xcen.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de... > 3 > > > Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> writes:  > E > > > > You'd probably know better than I.  This doesn't explain much2C > > > > about what he did at DEC between '76 and '88 or '89 when he 
 > > > > left.  >  > > > - VAXELN
 > > > - PRISM  >   E > > And DEC's first PL/1 compiler, I think (the back-end of which was 5 > > then used for one or more other languages, IIRC).  > B > VAXC in fact. As doced in the 'Beauty and the Beast' appendix inD > the book on the project. Later on, used by SCAN as well as several	 > others.i  A That's funny.  I've heard it said by someone that worked with him F that shared libraries was a Cutler idea, but have always discounted itH since this person did not come from an academic computing background andE figured that if it seemed that way, it must have been borrowed from aoI source unknown to the person to whom I spoke.  But the more I hear he was " a compiler guy, the more I wonder.   -- a< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.c   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 09:57:59 GMT= From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Message-ID: <9nsu8a$mit$12@bob.news.rcn.net>  ) In article <3BA11F9D.9000904@compaq.com>,3.    John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:J, >> In article <3BA0B157.9000904@compaq.com>,1 >>    John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote:D >> D >=L >>>Well, I wouldn't say plenty.  We could pick R31 or R26 with little or no E >>>impact on existing code.  This morning I'm leaning to mapping the eL >>>VAX/Alpha R8 onto R26 and mapping the VAX/Alpha R0 onto R8.  I might use L >>>the real R31 for the VAX/Alpha R1.  The VAX/Alpha R26 maps onto BR0.  We H >>>just have to make sure that the BLISS/C compilers do the mapping for  >>>user-defined linkages.l >>>e >>  B >> How do you verify that?  I'm not asking for detail...perhaps an; >> overview.  You can't possibly do it by hand or a filcom.c >> l >dF >Verify what?  That the C and BLISS compilers play by the same rules?    Yes.  $ >I'll talk to those compiler teams.   # Then they have a comparison test?  a  % > .. Or are you talking about how to e >verify the mapping is correct?r  D Yes.  Both need to be done and then verifyed by you (I would think).C I was just wondering how you were going to give yourself, and thus,1& your project, a nice warm feeling ;-).  ; I spent years over, IIRC, five delopement cycles designing, :  implementing and testing double-checks and sanity checks.0 I had the luxury of one architecture and one OS.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:02:24 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com1< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Message-ID: <9nsugh$mit$13@bob.news.rcn.net>  G In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131300110.9914-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>, /    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: - >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:t >l> >> I was not a devotee.  And I also happened to own DEC stock. >:F >But surely you were not pleased at the decision to drop the pdp-10 to >focus on the VAX?  @ The VAX existed before the decicion to drop the -10 product line> occurred.  Having a fact-based opinion on bone-headed thinking= does not make me a devotee.  You need to learn about business, just a tad more.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:04:27 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Message-ID: <9nsukd$mit$14@bob.news.rcn.net>  * In article <3BA105E5.B5BE3B68@virgin.net>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:  >t >D >Alan Greig wrote: >m >> Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  >> >> > >> >
 >> > - VAXELNu >> > - PRISM >> > >>6 >> And PRISM without which there would have been no NT >> >t >I meant MICA obviously.  ; What was MICA?  I lost track of our cybercrud around DECnete
 Phase III.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:08:15 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com0< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise), Message-ID: <9nsurh$mit$15@bob.news.rcn.net>  ) In article <3BA11D7F.5040104@compaq.com>,k.    John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote: >Bill Todd wrote:  >  >> lJ >> And DEC's first PL/1 compiler, I think (the back-end of which was then  used* >> for one or more other languages, IIRC). >> e >i? >The VCG is/was used by VAX PL/1, VAX Ada, VAX C, and VAX SCAN.  >tI >By the way, don't be fooled into thinking that Cutler, et al. wrote the sE >VCG from scratch.  They didn't.  It was licensed from other company.i  = And what was Cutler's position.  Cost center manager, producto> mangager, architect?  The work he did would be dictated by his@ position in the heirarchy.  Look, managers had a function within< a development cycle, too; coding just wasn't part of the job+ description nor would there have been time.h   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:33:34 +0100l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)8 Message-ID: <q114qtoiknmuc9qneqqur8lfoi711v530a@4ax.com>  8 On Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:04:27 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:   >u >e< >What was MICA?  I lost track of our cybercrud around DECnet >Phase III.u  E The project to develop a portable kernel around which a new Super-VMS B would be built. Cutler took the source-code lock, stock and barrelC with him to Microsoft after the project was canceled and used it as C the basis of the NT kernel. PRISM was the parallel hardware project F canceled at the same time. When Alpha rose from the ashes of PRISM andD DEC started ported NT to Alpha they advertised the Alpha as "born toD run NT" because of this. When Compaq killed NT I asked them how thisD fitted in with the "born to run NT" claim. Less than two years later
 we found out.D  E Cutler laughed in DEC's face when they started porting NT to Alpha bytE saying something like "These idiots are now paying for something they/F once had free". He also began the porting work himself just to furtherC annoy DEC and by the time the sources reached DEC they found he had/B 'helped' the port by using the code names for various parts of theC MICA/PRISM projects all over the Alpha source tree and, worse, that2C the base code was updated versions of MICA. DEC Complained to GatesFD but did not talk any legal action. Documented in "Showstopper" - theE story of Windows NT. The book is almost as much a biography of Cutlerp as it s of NT.   >/BAHi >n( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:37:43 +0100>% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)8 Message-ID: <9q14qts9utjp027n8c2np5uv3ni41cjo4d@4ax.com>  8 On Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:08:15 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:    > >And what was Cutler's position.  Cost center manager, product? >mangager, architect?  The work he did would be dictated by his A >position in the heirarchy.  Look, managers had a function withinB= >a development cycle, too; coding just wasn't part of the job , >description nor would there have been time.  B According to Showstopper again even at MS Cutler was/is famous forE rewriting subordinates code.  They didn't complain too loudly as most 8 accepted he had proved their code was not up to scratch.  F Showstopper covers Cutler warts and all but the impression given is heE only gets away with his behaviour - first at DEC then at MS - because = he is such a brilliant coder.  I'm only quoting what it says.r >/ >/BAH: >6( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:19:03 -0400o* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)) Message-ID: <3BA211D7.5000700@compaq.com>I   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:E > I was just wondering how you were going to give yourself, and thus,0( > your project, a nice warm feeling ;-). >   @ Oh that feeling!  Nah, I'll just dump a cup of soup in my lap...     -- I John ReaganC' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderx   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:27:40 -0400O* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)) Message-ID: <3BA213DC.7020108@compaq.com>2   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:? > And what was Cutler's position.  Cost center manager, productF@ > mangager, architect?  The work he did would be dictated by hisB > position in the heirarchy.  Look, managers had a function within> > a development cycle, too; coding just wasn't part of the job- > description nor would there have been time.e  I I'm not sure.  I wasn't here then.  I would think architect/coder/4-star ; General/etc.  I I don't have a copy of Cutler's book on building the VCG ("Engineering a (F Compiler: VAX-11 Code Generation and Optimization" by Anklam, Cutler, D Heinen, and MacLaren.  Digital Press, 1982).  I do have an internal H documented titled "VCG interface: A compiler writer's guide".  However, / it doesn't give any history behind the project.O  E I don't want to give the impression they didn't do any work.  Indeed  @ they did, however, some/part of the code and/or algorithms were C licensed.  (I don't remember the name of the company.  If you look hH through the VAX SCAN sources that Digital sent to DECUS, you might find   the name in the source modules.)  > All this occurred just before I started in the summer of 1983.     -- i John Reaganp' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project LeaderT   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:27:56 -0500-+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>t< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)G Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141018570.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>n  , On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  I > In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131300110.9914-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,i1 >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: / > >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:0 > >T@ > >> I was not a devotee.  And I also happened to own DEC stock. > >-H > >But surely you were not pleased at the decision to drop the pdp-10 to > >focus on the VAX? > B > The VAX existed before the decicion to drop the -10 product line@ > occurred.  Having a fact-based opinion on bone-headed thinking? > does not make me a devotee.  You need to learn about businessm > just a tad more.  A That may be, but I fail to see an answer to the posed question inhA there.  I apologize if my attempts to evaluate the limits of yourp9 reliability as an historical source (and no source is allt- encompassing) have been in any way offensive.t  D Sometime, I would be most interested in hearing your tale of DEC andD projects in which you were involved in toto, as I'm sure it would beJ "Chock full 'o nuts," but doubt that I'll be able to convice you that is a2 good use of your time any time in the near future.  
 Respectfully,h PCM    -- n< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.s   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 12:40:35 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com2< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nt7p4$hap$3@bob.news.rcn.net>N  ) In article <3BA211D7.5000700@compaq.com>,e.    John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:iF >> I was just wondering how you were going to give yourself, and thus,) >> your project, a nice warm feeling ;-).h >>   >bA >Oh that feeling!  Nah, I'll just dump a cup of soup in my lap...a >n >T- ROTFLMAO!  <drum roll>  Is it alpha bit soup?a  4 <oh, pant...oh, groan>  I just could keep my fingers from typing that one.c   /BAH   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 12:46:41 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.comi< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nt84i$hap$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <9q14qts9utjp027n8c2np5uv3ni41cjo4d@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:s9 >On Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:08:15 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e >  >? >>And what was Cutler's position.  Cost center manager, product @ >>mangager, architect?  The work he did would be dictated by hisB >>position in the heirarchy.  Look, managers had a function within> >>a development cycle, too; coding just wasn't part of the job- >>description nor would there have been time.e >oC >According to Showstopper again even at MS Cutler was/is famous fore >rewriting subordinates code.  s   Some nights that happened.  , > ...They didn't complain too loudly as most9 >accepted he had proved their code was not up to scratch.=  < Not most.  Only the one who were afraid of him.  His was not> up to scratch by the time he lost practice by being a manager.   >@G >Showstopper covers Cutler warts and all but the impression given is heDF >only gets away with his behaviour - first at DEC then at MS - because> >he is such a brilliant coder.  I'm only quoting what it says.  < Who wrote it?  I knew and worked with a number of brilliant C coders.  They chose to stay in the coding half of the organization. = Those who were competenet tended to chose the management half@6 of the org.  I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.-   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 12:50:32 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nt8bo$hap$6@bob.news.rcn.net>s  G In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141018570.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,r/    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:s- >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e >iJ >> In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131300110.9914-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,2 >>    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:0 >> >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >A >> >> I was not a devotee.  And I also happened to own DEC stock.  >> >I >> >But surely you were not pleased at the decision to drop the pdp-10 toc >> >focus on the VAX?  >> eC >> The VAX existed before the decicion to drop the -10 product line A >> occurred.  Having a fact-based opinion on bone-headed thinking-@ >> does not make me a devotee.  You need to learn about business >> just a tad more.p >.B >That may be, but I fail to see an answer to the posed question in	 >there.  s   It was a leading question.  = > ..I apologize if my attempts to evaluate the limits of yourJ: >reliability as an historical source (and no source is all. >encompassing) have been in any way offensive. >aE >Sometime, I would be most interested in hearing your tale of DEC andnE >projects in which you were involved in toto, as I'm sure it would be K >"Chock full 'o nuts," but doubt that I'll be able to convice you that is a83 >good use of your time any time in the near future.   : You're reading the wrong newsgroup for that history.  I've< done several write-ups about specific instances.  Go Google.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:28:23 -0500 + From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>p< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)G Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141121420.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>   & On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Alan Greig wrote:  H > Showstopper covers Cutler warts and all but the impression given is heG > only gets away with his behaviour - first at DEC then at MS - because-? > he is such a brilliant coder.  I'm only quoting what it says.h  G That's one of the principal reasons I am badgering Mme. jmfbah, becauseoG among a few alpha-male greybeards I know, Cutler is the only guy I havetB ever heard mentioned with anything approaching hero-worship.  Such2 polarized opinions bears closer scrutiny, I think.  @ Another story is that if he finds code in a printer before it isI retrieved, the owner is/was likely to find it graded when they get there.h   -- .+ I liked HP, and at one time I liked Compaq,e7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 17:20:50 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)- Message-ID: <87wv32i0wd.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   , John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:   > Bill Todd wrote:  iE > > And DEC's first PL/1 compiler, I think (the back-end of which waso
 > > then usedL+ > > for one or more other languages, IIRC).t  s@ > The VCG is/was used by VAX PL/1, VAX Ada, VAX C, and VAX SCAN.  iE > By the way, don't be fooled into thinking that Cutler, et al. wrote A > the VCG from scratch.  They didn't.  It was licensed from otherr
 > company.  E ???? I thought the PL/I front end was from Honeywell, and the backendr% code generator was done from scratch.e   -- t< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.d@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT).. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)@ Message-ID: <20010914165952.13986.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>   VAX, PDP, PRIMS, Cutler ....  # You are so connected to the past...w   Forget all about these subjecstR1 . you should think in the future possibilities of & HP+Compaq and OpenVMS+Itanium ! ! !=20   Regards>   FC=20a0 --- Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:. > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >=20 > > In article >m< <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131300110.9914-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,3 > >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:g1 > > >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:o > > >g3 > > >> I was not a devotee.  And I also happened tos > own DEC stock. > > >i4 > > >But surely you were not pleased at the decision > to drop the pdp-10 toe > > >focus on the VAX? > >=203 > > The VAX existed before the decicion to drop theo > -10 product line- > > occurred.  Having a fact-based opinion ona > bone-headed thinking2 > > does not make me a devotee.  You need to learn > about business > > just a tad more. >=201 > That may be, but I fail to see an answer to thet > posed question in 4 > there.  I apologize if my attempts to evaluate the > limits of your4 > reliability as an historical source (and no source > is all/ > encompassing) have been in any way offensive.H >=206 > Sometime, I would be most interested in hearing your > tale of DEC and 5 > projects in which you were involved in toto, as I'mo > sure it would be6 > "Chock full 'o nuts," but doubt that I'll be able to > convice you that is an4 > good use of your time any time in the near future. >=20 > Respectfully,. > PCM> >=20 > --=20d6 > I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked	 > Compaq,v/ > but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq putd > together.n >=20 >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DrL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Ds  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?-) Donate cash, emergency relief informationM7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:05:35 +01002 From: peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock)< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)0 Message-ID: <oq3d5pg0tc.fsf@premise.demon.co.uk>   <jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes:>  6     jmfbahciv> I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.  F VMS engineering had an incredible "phallic" cult of the coder, which IE think came from Cutler.  At times, it was like being in a homo-erotict? cowboy movie.  He was really a kind of mythic creature, loosely-' based on an actually existing person.  r  
 Peter Hancock.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:31:22 +0200-$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch>" Subject: JNI on VMS - Link Problem Message-ID: <3ba1ea8c$1@hcwe67>a   Hello,  	 I'm using  GDC006>java -version java version "1.2.2-3"K Classic VM (build J2SDK.v.1.2.2-3:10/31/2000-08:52, native threads, jit_122o   on VMS AXP 7.2-1  8 I want to call java code from C, but cannot link because  ( GDC006>link TEST_LINK,[--.build]java/opt% %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:l( %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         JNI_CREATEJAVAVM> %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol JNI_CREATEJAVAVM referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000030r          in module TEST_LINK file2 KOBE_TMC_ONLINE_GATEWAY:[TEST.SOURCE]TEST_LINK.OBJ  	 Java.opt:h  = SYS$COMMON:[JAVA$122.JRE.LIB.ALPHA.CLASSIC]JAVA$JVM_SHR/shareo    I Jni_CreateJavaVM is the only JNI api function I cannot link to. What am ie doing wrong?   The C command is1 cc TEST_LINK.C /incl=SYS$COMMON:[JAVA.INCLUDE...]-   The little c-prog:     GDC006>type test_link.c  #include <jni.h>   int main ()  {j   /* Java VM reference */p JavaVM * pJvm;    ' /* Native method interface reference */q JNIEnv * pJNIEnv;.  5 /* JDK 1.2 VM initialization requirement reference */  JavaVMInitArgs vm_args;a jint vmflag;  B     vmflag = JNI_CreateJavaVM(&pJvm, (void **)&pJNIEnv, &vm_args); }v GDC006>r    
 any Ideas?   Jakob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:39:33 +0200n$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch>& Subject: Re: JNI on VMS - Link Problem Message-ID: <3ba1ec76$1@hcwe67>S   solved.a# need to compile with /names=(as_is)   5 "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitragd news:3ba1ea8c$1@hcwe67...A > Hello, >e > I'm usingp > GDC006>java -version > java version "1.2.2-3"E > Classic VM (build J2SDK.v.1.2.2-3:10/31/2000-08:52, native threads,  jit_122s >h > on VMS AXP 7.2-1 >f: > I want to call java code from C, but cannot link because >r* > GDC006>link TEST_LINK,[--.build]java/opt' > %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:g* > %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         JNI_CREATEJAVAVM@ > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol JNI_CREATEJAVAVM referenced+ >         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000030e" >         in module TEST_LINK file4 > KOBE_TMC_ONLINE_GATEWAY:[TEST.SOURCE]TEST_LINK.OBJ >e > Java.opt:  >e? > SYS$COMMON:[JAVA$122.JRE.LIB.ALPHA.CLASSIC]JAVA$JVM_SHR/shareE >o >aK > Jni_CreateJavaVM is the only JNI api function I cannot link to. What am i" > doing wrong? >n > The C command is3 > cc TEST_LINK.C /incl=SYS$COMMON:[JAVA.INCLUDE...]. >  > The little c-prog: >u >e > GDC006>type test_link.c- > #include <jni.h> >-
 > int main ()- > {a >  > /* Java VM reference */0 > JavaVM * pJvm; >g >.) > /* Native method interface reference */  > JNIEnv * pJNIEnv;a >o7 > /* JDK 1.2 VM initialization requirement reference */4 > JavaVMInitArgs vm_args;p > jint vmflag; >mD >     vmflag = JNI_CreateJavaVM(&pJvm, (void **)&pJNIEnv, &vm_args); > }a	 > GDC006>u >  >n > any Ideas? >  > Jakob  >d >w   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:56:33 GMT ' From: zeeb@java.zko.dec.com (Jeff Zeeb) & Subject: Re: JNI on VMS - Link Problem0 Message-ID: <RMpo7.227$YP.8768@news.cpqcorp.net>  F In article <3ba1ec76$1@hcwe67>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> writes:	 |>solved.n% |>need to compile with /names=(as_is)u |>  D You have only solved the undefined link error, and are still missingA some required compilation qualifiers.  You really should downloade, the JNI example from the FAQ on our website,, http://www.compaq.com/java/faq/faq_ovms.html/ You must compile with at least these qualifiers   /   /float=ieee /ieee=denorm /names=(short,as_is).  7 |>"Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitrag, |>news:3ba1ea8c$1@hcwe67... 
 |>> Hello, |>> 
 |>> I'm usingm |>> GDC006>java -version |>> java version "1.2.2-3"G |>> Classic VM (build J2SDK.v.1.2.2-3:10/31/2000-08:52, native threads,@	 |>jit_122t |>>  |>> on VMS AXP 7.2-1 |>>u< |>> I want to call java code from C, but cannot link because |>>r, |>> GDC006>link TEST_LINK,[--.build]java/opt) |>> %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol: , |>> %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         JNI_CREATEJAVAVMB |>> %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol JNI_CREATEJAVAVM referenced- |>>         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000030h$ |>>         in module TEST_LINK file6 |>> KOBE_TMC_ONLINE_GATEWAY:[TEST.SOURCE]TEST_LINK.OBJ |>>A   --	 Jeff Zeebp zeeb@zko.dec.com  N "Daddy, my crayon doesn't work.  It needs a new battery" - Matthew (age 2 1/2)4 while trying to use a white crayon with white paper.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:51:23 -0400 0 From: "Virginia Flores" <virginiaflores@msn.com>$ Subject: LAT PRINTER - THANKS TO ALL5 Message-ID: <F248JPGbFqTnrrXj7gC0000061e@hotmail.com>'  * <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <DIV>  <DIV>To all:</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>C<DIV>Thanks for all the advice, command procedures and tips I got.&nbsp; I really appreciate the support.&nbsp; Thanks as well to all those people who inquired whether I was going to be able to leave Canada on schedule.&nbsp; Looks like I'll be all set.</DIV>v <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>v <DIV>-Virginia</DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></html>(   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:11:33 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: memory channele> Message-ID: <9mno7.150841$aZ.23163380@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  @ We have just installed an ES40 with VMS 7.2-1, and installed theL UPDATE-V0300 ECO.  Most things so far are ok, but when during the install itK did not ask anything about memory channel.  (It did ask if we will be using:L the LAN  as a cluster interconnect, to which we responded YES).  When I do aK SHOW DEVICE   device MCA0 is UNAVAILABLE.  I don't know if I am having somehD sort of configuration or software problem, or am I having a hardware problem.  D I am having a real hard time concentrating on this at all, what withK everything that is happening.  I have been reading the thread about the WTCeK and I can see both sides of the debate (actually, there are several sides).eJ Each side has valid points.  I read about Companies in the WTC needing VAXF 7800 boards.  We will have 17 of these available as soon as we get ourJ Alphas installed and the applications migrated. (They are already promised- to a vendor, who now needs them for the WTC).   I I have also heard that several CPQ people have died.  One was a presentersF going to CETS that was in one of the planes that hit the WTC.  Several others were in the WTC.i  D Work seems the only way to take my mind off this.  But work seems soG irrelevant in comparison.  I have never been affected this way by worldlK events before.  Even when my classmates were in Vietnam and I was home withl a draft lottery number of 285.  ? But back to the memory channel.  Any advice on how to make MCA0t "available"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:45:55 +0200t5 From: "Philippe Bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr>e Subject: Re: memory channelo$ Message-ID: <3ba1fc0a@news.euriware>  > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> a crit dans le message news:3 9mno7.150841$aZ.23163380@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...oB > We have just installed an ES40 with VMS 7.2-1, and installed theK > UPDATE-V0300 ECO.  Most things so far are ok, but when during the installr itG > did not ask anything about memory channel.  (It did ask if we will bet usingyL > the LAN  as a cluster interconnect, to which we responded YES).  When I do atH > SHOW DEVICE   device MCA0 is UNAVAILABLE.  I don't know if I am having someF > sort of configuration or software problem, or am I having a hardware
 > problem. >eF > I am having a real hard time concentrating on this at all, what withI > everything that is happening.  I have been reading the thread about theH WTCwE > and I can see both sides of the debate (actually, there are several. sides).nL > Each side has valid points.  I read about Companies in the WTC needing VAXH > 7800 boards.  We will have 17 of these available as soon as we get ourL > Alphas installed and the applications migrated. (They are already promised/ > to a vendor, who now needs them for the WTC).  > K > I have also heard that several CPQ people have died.  One was a presenterfH > going to CETS that was in one of the planes that hit the WTC.  Several > others were in the WTC.l >hF > Work seems the only way to take my mind off this.  But work seems soI > irrelevant in comparison.  I have never been affected this way by worldtH > events before.  Even when my classmates were in Vietnam and I was home with  > a draft lottery number of 285. >=A > But back to the memory channel.  Any advice on how to make MCA0p > "available"? >t >   E     Having the same configuration, don't panic ,these devices are setrG /NOAVAILABLE (like template devices) try to look at PM devices and showv cluster add con ...h   Hope this help    Philippe Bocher  Philippe.bocher@euriware.fr   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:24:58 GMTi& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: memory channeli> Message-ID: <_qoo7.150961$aZ.23245042@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  J Thanks.  That helped.   SHO CLUSTER/CONT    ADD CIRC  shows MC is working.  @ "Philippe Bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr> wrote in message news:3ba1fc0a@news.euriware... >M@ > "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> a crit dans le message news:5 > 9mno7.150841$aZ.23163380@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com....D > > We have just installed an ES40 with VMS 7.2-1, and installed theE > > UPDATE-V0300 ECO.  Most things so far are ok, but when during the  install1 > itI > > did not ask anything about memory channel.  (It did ask if we will be1 > using0K > > the LAN  as a cluster interconnect, to which we responded YES).  When I  do > auJ > > SHOW DEVICE   device MCA0 is UNAVAILABLE.  I don't know if I am having > someH > > sort of configuration or software problem, or am I having a hardware > > problem. > >oH > > I am having a real hard time concentrating on this at all, what withK > > everything that is happening.  I have been reading the thread about the  > WTC G > > and I can see both sides of the debate (actually, there are severalr	 > sides).iJ > > Each side has valid points.  I read about Companies in the WTC needing VAXpJ > > 7800 boards.  We will have 17 of these available as soon as we get ourE > > Alphas installed and the applications migrated. (They are alreadys promised1 > > to a vendor, who now needs them for the WTC).n > >nC > > I have also heard that several CPQ people have died.  One was ag	 presenteroJ > > going to CETS that was in one of the planes that hit the WTC.  Several > > others were in the WTC." > >dH > > Work seems the only way to take my mind off this.  But work seems soK > > irrelevant in comparison.  I have never been affected this way by worldiJ > > events before.  Even when my classmates were in Vietnam and I was home > with" > > a draft lottery number of 285. > > C > > But back to the memory channel.  Any advice on how to make MCA0  > > "available"? > >e > >  >nG >     Having the same configuration, don't panic ,these devices are setrI > /NOAVAILABLE (like template devices) try to look at PM devices and showe > cluster add con ...2 >, > Hope this help >  >  Philippe Bocher >  Philippe.bocher@euriware.fr >s >n >v   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 09:35:54 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: memory channels3 Message-ID: <1SlB4sxtqaes@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  g In article <9mno7.150841$aZ.23163380@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:a  B > We have just installed an ES40 with VMS 7.2-1, and installed theN > UPDATE-V0300 ECO.  Most things so far are ok, but when during the install itM > did not ask anything about memory channel.  (It did ask if we will be usingdN > the LAN  as a cluster interconnect, to which we responded YES).  When I do aM > SHOW DEVICE   device MCA0 is UNAVAILABLE.  I don't know if I am having some-F > sort of configuration or software problem, or am I having a hardware
 > problem. >   ? 	As the other fellow mentioned... they always show unavailable.   	 	Do this:8   	$ show clust/cont  	Command > add circuits/type=all  : |-------------------+---------+--------------------------|: |  NODE  | SOFTWARE |  STATUS | RPORT | RP_TYP | CIR_STA |: |--------+----------+---------+-------+--------+---------|: | NODE1  | VMS V7.2 | MEMBER  |       | LAN    | OPEN    |: |        |          |         |     1 | MC     | OPEN    |: | NODE2  | VMS V7.2 | MEMBER  |     0 | MC     | OPEN    |: |        |          |         |       | LAN    | OPEN    |: +--------------------------------------------------------+   	Doing this:  3  Command >  add circuits/type=all, connections=open   H 	Will show who is talking through MC.  If the other node(s) isn't/aren'tA 	up yet... get 'em up.  But when booting, if you saw good console 4 	chatter, you should be good to go on the first one!   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:35 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>P Subject: My OpenVMS web procedures, was Re: Is www.openvms.compaq.com   down ???( Message-ID: <3BA233F3.C630666@127.0.0.1>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >  > > Nic Clews wrote:D > >I maintain nearly 300 HTML pages, and my block and bulk edits areK > >performed using the TECO SEARCH macro using the search/replace function,iI > >plus writing my own tools in DCL. Many other tasks are automated usingeG > >DCL including selective updates, live and copy verification and linkFG > >validation. I'd be happy to discuss my techniques for maintaining my. > >hobby site with you offline.0 > K > Actually, that would be on-topic for this group, and I'd be interested toOJ > hear about it.  (Link validation using DCL?  Have you figured out how to! > get a useful status from lynx?)w  G OK, I also need to clarify what my techniques do, and don't do and what D i'm trying to achieve. You've added an interesting dimension that isD beyond my programming capability, but if someone were to write say aD command line web browser which returned a testable VMS status to DCL! this can be completely automated.   D All this is based on my freeware submission for the V5 disks, in the directory [DEBUG_HTML]  F The growth of these procedures is surrounded by history, involving theB origins of the web pages, the change of the host (twice), and themF growing beyond the point of being manually manageable. I have not, andF will not succumb to an M$ platform based tool. The involvement of such1 is only in preliminary image work (scanning etc.)e  C As I use my home VMS system, and the pages also used to be on a VMSbA system. I hand coded HTML, starting in 1995, my RUNOFF experiencerD providing an acceptable mindset for writing the pages. My pages have? some detail of how they are maintained, it mentions VMS but notkB specifically. http://www.bolton.org.uk/maintained.html however theC updates are not daily, I can't afford the power bill of running theD cluster 24 hours now.D  A Firstly the problems I faced and the ways I've tackled them. MostMC importantly, typos. Secondly, repeated common manual tasks (such as G image references / inclusion). Thirdly, link verification, partly based3? on typos to internal files. Fourthly, making sure that adequateeE navigation exists between files. Fifthly, keeing my copy of the pagesl% perfectly in step with the live copy.o  E The DEBUG-HTML grew out of those requirements above, plus I use otheraB techniques that I'll describe here for which I have not issued the* command procedures (yet?). Details follow.  E The command procedures as a whole do the following. They open up eachoG file found in the directory. For HTML files, they are scanned for tags,kD and the presence or otherwise of these tags are written to an outputF file. For images, they are checked that they are referred to by one orD more HTML files. Additionally a relationship is built up between theH HTML files. The reason for this is to make sure that the HOME button (orF similar) is in all files, and that a general indexing file includes atF least one reference to all other files with counts. I should add it isF not foolproof. M$ tools typically create line length well in excess ofF 255 characters and cloud the HTML with superfluous code. My particular2 hate is "font on, font off". Same font. Bloatware.  F When it comes to link checking, it does not bother trying to parse theH difference between internal and external references, if the reference isF not found, it is listed in a separate output file. Therefore this willB contain all external links, and any local files not found. It alsoH performs case checking as the host webserver is a unix box, assuming all
 lowercase.< Another issue not (yet) addressed is subdirectories. Planned improvement, sometime.  C The other output files produced are a complete listing of all imageoE files, all HTML files, and lists of 'orphans' (it's common I scan andSE prepare image files and sometimes don't complete integration into the  site).  H All of these output files are HTML files themsleves (but called *.HTM toH differentiate), so the debug suites creates a clickable cross reference.B OK so it needs manual intervention to check the "links not locatedH locally" file, this is where a command line web retrieval software would: come in. Local errors are discovered by visual inspection.  D The full list of files created is reference by a file whose contents are:        Links to all images k      Load unused GIF links u      Load unused JPG links P'      Links to unused/ unreferred files  9      Links not found or located locally (online testing) E      Links to all HTML files i      Links to all files "      References within HTML files .      HTML not containing reference to file... *      HTML files not referenced by file...   @ The documentation supplied describes how parameters you feed the4 procedure affect the content of some of these files.  B OK so that describes the debugging content, it is available on theF Freeware V5 with the operating system update, on the Compaq website orF my homepage off http://www.python.demon.co.uk/pickup.html where latest; updates will be posted (some are planned but not imminent).m  F When doing some types of mass updates, I use the TECO SEARCH macro. It8 allow it to make changes to files, when invoked from the/ EDIT/TECO/COMMAND=SEARCH.TEC, at the "Output:",aA enter /CHA, and use a blank line to terminate the input after the  desired strings.  < A little description of the other procedures I have written.  A A command file compares a UNIX file listing generated by FTP's LS.H command, and uses F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES arguments EOF and FFB to compare theH exact size in bytes. It also check that matching filenames exist on eachE side, but there is a little inconsistency with special characters aretD used. It lists files that are missing or different size on either my> directory, or the host directory. (No differences, no output).  G A command file that creates header files (templates I guess) for images-G for inclusion into the main body of HTML files. Again it uses F$FILE tovE determine file sizes, but for the GIF files, it determines the heights; and width in pixels, I supply the ALT text and description.bG MOGRIFY part of IMAGEMAGICK is used on VMS to do the interlacing. XV toeF do the GIF image rendition from the large JPG, and the smooth function? takes care of most of the problems of going that way with image  conversion.Y  @ A command file that preverves file dates when 'mass updates' areG applied. For example, if in all files a link changes, I do not want the D actual date to change, so this is stored before the mass changes areC made, then the 'original' dates are put on the files using SETDATE. A (Freeware). I maintain the dates because I use them in the update  procedures (later), but 9 obviously in this case *all* files are FTP'd to the host.-  H Finally a suite that manages the uploading of new and changed files. FTPF is not particularly clever, and because my system on and off times areE random, I use a date marker file. The date marker file contains a VMS C format date and time and is PULLED from the live host from the last>F successful FTP operation. The FTP operation includes the PUSHING of anF updated (new date/time) file, which must be PULLED (last) to overwriteG the old date marker. This forms the reliable 'loop'. An UPDATED file is-G also created, this is where the file dates are used as mentioned above.d  @ The batch job that connects the system to my ISP invokes the FTPG programs, and there are also scripts that manage file deletion and tidy1B up as well as pushing new files where required, and triggering the updated files transfer.I  C I think that covers how it all works. It's grown mainly from bittercG experience and sore fingers. I've other miscellanuos files, for example/C files that extract text from mail messages, reading the headers andcA body, stripping the silly =20 etc. rubbish and including and auto  updating the guestbook.s  G In summary, I find OpenVMS an ideal partner in my hobby web publishing.e   -- b( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:32:34 -0400 ( From: "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu>( Subject: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file/ Message-ID: <tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com>-   OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alphae  I What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our's < has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk.   Thanks,  Tom Steuvert   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:37:32 -0400s. From: Curtis Williams <williamsca@process.com>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file+ Message-ID: <3BA1FA0C.4268915E@process.com>A   Thomas Steuver wrote:e >  > OpenVMS 7.2-1 AlphaE > K > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our's > > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk.   Try  $ set audit/server=new_log     --    $  Curtis Williams, Senior QA Engineer  Process Softwarer  959 Concord Streeti  Framingham, MA 01701g.  Phone: 508-879-6994 x308    Fax: 508-879-0042
  USPA D-21076a2  "Computer, you and I need to have a little talk."$    -- Miles O'Brien, Deep Space Nine   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:43:30 +0200e5 From: "Philippe Bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr>a, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file& Message-ID: <3ba1ed69$1@news.euriware>  @ "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> a crit dans le message news:$ tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com... > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alphah >hK > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our'st> > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk. > 	 > Thanks,e
 > Tom Steuver  >s >y help set audit/server (new_log)w   Philippe Bochere Philippe.bocher@euriware.frw   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:49:40 -0700 (PDT)c. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file@ Message-ID: <20010914124940.43744.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>   People here didnt learn yet./ The most important and powerful DCL command is:j   $ HELP   REgardsl   FC=20a1 --- Philippe Bocher <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr>3 wrote: >=206 > "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> a =E9crit dans le > message news:s& > tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com... > > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alphah > >r) > > What are the commands to create a newg% > SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our'sw3 > > has become so huge that it is taking almost thee > entire disk. > >n > > Thanks,e > > Tom SteuverW > >C > >e! > help set audit/server (new_log)k >=20 > Philippe Bocher  > Philippe.bocher@euriware.frw >=20 >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DdL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dw F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilu fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Da  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?e) Donate cash, emergency relief informations7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/d   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:51:47 +0200a2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL fileG Message-ID: <3ba1fcad$0$21466$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>h  9 "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitragr) news:tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com...h > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alpha  >sK > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our's > > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk. >t	 > Thanks,y
 > Tom Steuvera >c >n   Hi!    set audit/server=new_log   regards    Ren Schelbaum Datakom Austria GesmbH   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:02:02 +0200k5 From: "Philippe Bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr>t, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file& Message-ID: <3ba1f1c1$1@news.euriware>  G "Philippe Bocher" <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr> a crit dans le messagec! news: 3ba1ed69$1@news.euriware...n >iB > "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> a crit dans le message news:& > tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com... > > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alpha  > >nF > > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file? Our'sa@ > > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk. > >d > > Thanks,e > > Tom Steuver5 > >a > >6! > help set audit/server (new_log)  >e > Philippe Bocherd > Philippe.bocher@euriware.frs >l >t       HeyA,     Don't reply to me this was MY answer ;-)   Philippe Bochern  Philippe.bocher@euriware.fr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:17:09 +0100h* From: Andrew Robinson <arobinson@hspg.com>, Subject: RE: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL fileM Message-ID: <CDA4BAD1E10ED41181AC00508B6051D3C3E3AF@grumpy.internal.hspg.com>   K Although I agree that HELP is one of the most important commands available,eH experience is far more important. Help can be totally useless unless youK know roughly what you are looking for. I can remember searching through allbG of the accounting section when I had the same problem many moons ago. IhJ spent 2 hours finding that answer, when one simple question has saved many0 hours of frustrating and unproductive searching.   Regards  Andrew Robinsona   -----Original Message-----5 From: Fabio Cardoso [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]T Sent: 14 September 2001 13:50  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file     People here didnt learn yet./ The most important and powerful DCL command is:t   $ HELP   REgardsa   FC t <snip>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:34:29 +0200 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL fileG Message-ID: <3ba206af$0$60724$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   C "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag8A news:3ba1fcad$0$21466$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...  >e; > "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitragm+ > news:tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com...r > > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alphai > >mF > > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file? Our's @ > > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk. > >r > > Thanks,  > > Tom Steuver- > >- > >- >  > Hi!  >S > set audit/server=new_log >o	 > regardsp >e > Ren Schelbaum > Datakom Austria GesmbH >e >  >s   Hi!    Replying to my own post:  I If you want to do it on a regular basis in a batch-procedure, you have to, add the line$     assign/process OPA0: SYS$COMMAND before you do the set audit., Otherwise it wont work in a batch procedure!   regards    Ren   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:57:32 +0200m  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file+ Message-ID: <VA.0000044b.0f1422e4@sture.ch>o  H In article <3ba206af$0$60724$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>,  Ren Schelbaum wrote:gE > "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag C > news:3ba1fcad$0$21466$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...  > >h= > > "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag - > > news:tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com...- > > > OpenVMS 7.2-1 AlphaW > > >SH > > > What are the commands to create a new SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file? > Our's+B > > > has become so huge that it is taking almost the entire disk. > > > 
 > > > Thanks,  > > > Tom Steuver  > > >| > > >  > >  > > Hi!V > >. > > set audit/server=new_log > >  > > regards  > >  > > Ren Schelbaum > > Datakom Austria GesmbH > >- > >- > >- >  > Hi!- >  > Replying to my own post: > K > If you want to do it on a regular basis in a batch-procedure, you have tow > add the line& >     assign/process OPA0: SYS$COMMAND > before you do the set audit.. > Otherwise it wont work in a batch procedure! > H Not necessary. I think you have confused the SET AUDIT command with the 7 REPLY/LOG command, which _does_ require the assignment.  ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland2   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:25 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: OpenVMS + HPd@ Message-ID: <20010914130225.75400.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>  / Resending... It is time of OpenVMS discussions.     .  I think nobody tought in the possibilities of4  OpenVMS and HP products (laboratory/automation).=20 =20C4  For example, here at the company there are hundreds/  of VMS and OpenVMS machines running industrialn8  automation  softwares (refineries and oil rigs), and=200 a few  running  LIMS (laboratory software) for >' chemistry, including with HP equipment.  =20p =20r3  HP have a good reputation in the industrial and=20i6  scientific community. Imagine putting all together=204  again: OpenVMS + HP (or Agilent) products.... Or=203  OpenVMS should be put in Agilent hands ? Great,=20a5  thinking in the big business it could become. Ok, oks4  I forgot the finance people which runs OpenVMS -=201  probably the natural way to migrate them will bee  NSK.=20 =20i =20t4  You should consider this possibility and I think it0  is a good way to "impulse" OpenVMS inside HP... =20b/  Or have a few HP products builtin naturally inG	  OpenVMS.h =20w!  a) HP Printer/Plotter drivers=20d  b) HP Scanner drivers =20r5  For these above, I hope Process should wake up. They 4  can offer this integration easyly for all HP+Compaq3  platforms because they have the experience needed.  =20o3  c) OpenView for OpenVMS management. So, Heroix ande*  others should look ahead and think in the  possibility4  to integrate their products for OpenVMS management. =20 3  d) Performance tools: RAXCO  and the others shoulde4  offer their skills and products to the OpenVMS, MPE
  HPUX groups.  =20 3  e) Compaq have their own backup products like ABS,M  but7  HP have OmniBack... Who will win ? A backup company=20t5  should offer the possibility to create a new producth3  for consolidate the backups. I hope will not be=20   (s**t). =20r =20s4  f) HP Storage products like CDRW, DVD, Tapes etc ..*  should become easier for OpenVMS systems. =20s.  g) The HP adapters for OpenVMS Systems (Fibre+  channel, Lan Console, SCSI, Net adapters).p =20   h) What more ?=20 =20 2  Just thinking by myself. And I am thinking in the5  good possbilities for the future of OpenVMS and I aml5 not trying to become extremaly sad, like people  hereu in this newsgroup. :-))))v     Reg      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DsL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D. F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilo fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dt  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?r) Donate cash, emergency relief informationa7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:55 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK8 Message-ID: <eoacptgk02nictdo2o5a2akua21hidfdl1@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:52:17 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:  H >In case you've missed this, and if you like the series as much as I do,G >I know you'd be upset if you missed it, so tonight at 18:30 on Radio 4 G >is "Fit the First" and the series runs every Wednesday for the next 12  >weeks.   E Don't forget, if you are outside the UK, you should be able to get itl8 at  http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/live_feed.html 23:30 EDT  D >Bearing in mind it was written in 1978, I do think that it [HHGTTG]H >was amazingly prophetic that it said the 'computer program' (Earth) was >being run by 'a >load of white MICE'.h  C And the HHGTTG itself is a web application years too early. In 1978eB HHGTTG and TOPS-20 were  two of my favourite things. Not sure whatD that says but hey I was only 15 at the time :) Initially the programB was only carried on Radio 4 UK FM and not by the regional variantsC such as Radio 4 Scotland and I had some home concocted dipole stucka' high on the roof to pull in the signal.a -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:52:05 -0400d From: William_Bochnik@acml.com4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK> Message-ID: <OF7A2DD735.FEA38371-ON85256AC7.004C20ED@acml.com>  E any one know where a copy of the radio show on cd could be pruchased?F      a                                                                                                   a                     Alan Greig                                                                   Ra                     <a.greig@virg                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      ea                     in.net>                      cc:                                              a                                          Subject:     Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in   ia                     09/14/2001           UK                                                      fa                     07:06 AM                                                                     ba                                                                                                   a                                                                                                  a      F On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:52:17 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:  H >In case you've missed this, and if you like the series as much as I do,G >I know you'd be upset if you missed it, so tonight at 18:30 on Radio 4uG >is "Fit the First" and the series runs every Wednesday for the next 12  >weeks.   E Don't forget, if you are outside the UK, you should be able to get itt8 at  http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/live_feed.html 23:30 EDT  D >Bearing in mind it was written in 1978, I do think that it [HHGTTG]H >was amazingly prophetic that it said the 'computer program' (Earth) was >being run by 'a >load of white MICE'.f  C And the HHGTTG itself is a web application years too early. In 1978eB HHGTTG and TOPS-20 were  two of my favourite things. Not sure whatD that says but hey I was only 15 at the time :) Initially the programB was only carried on Radio 4 UK FM and not by the regional variantsC such as Radio 4 Scotland and I had some home concocted dipole stucke' high on the roof to pull in the signal.h -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:27 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK) Message-ID: <3BA233EB.CAB232ED@127.0.0.1>h   William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:s > G > any one know where a copy of the radio show on cd could be pruchased?F  F http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchkikers/ follow the link to the shop, it details some CDs  & Dunno if they will dispatch world wide  E (Q: why is full series of Monty Python available is US on DVD and not  UK?)  F I have the original 6 CD set in a black box, but missing the music notD cleared (Pink Floyd Shine On You Crazy Diamond) in Ep. 3 at about 17@ minutes in, possibly more. The number of my CD set is BBCCD 6001  
 Good luck. -- u( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:02:22 +0100 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <5ud3qtk230lfbauto1a9q3vulff2fqis3m@4ax.com>  C On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:07:54 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:   >TheM >architects got most of it right but screwed up somewhere with the fuel fire.   B Well, that's the nub of it, isn't it.  I don't think anyone reallyE believes a major fire 70 storeys up is going to be manageable, so thenG best plan would be for it to be containable while the occupants escape.hE Perhaps as you suggest they underestimated the scale and intensity ofiD the fire after such a strike.  Since it is rather difficult to model6 such an impact (fire less so), much will be guesswork.  F I understand a more traditional form of construction is for a strongerG core, with floors cantilevered off, and the outer skin little more thaneD weatherproofing.  While this may be ultimately stronger, you have toH wonder whether the impact would have caused several floors to fail, withC a possible house of cards effect propagating downwards.  A la Ronana Point.     	John  -- I
 John Laird Yezerski Roper Ltd   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:36:44 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <2uf3qtc2gasilhuise0c69r4cpl654e3k4@4ax.com>  7 On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:29:36 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"F <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:    G >Very true, but I'd tend to agree with John. The structure was designed B >to withstand the impact of a four-engine Boeing 707; however, the> >twin-jet 757 is rather larger, heavier and carries more fuel.  C Please point me at a reference for the above claims as they are not F substantiated by the Boeing web site. Particularly in relation to fuel capacity and weight,     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:50:11 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <glg3qt89t0hs13titpitini0hk24jpokh3@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:08:09 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert  Deininger) wrote:6   >eH >It seems that the evacuation went much better this time.  The estimatedB >number missing is slightly under 5000, and occupancy was close toG >50,000.   It's very likely that far more than 50% escaped, and in much?  D Nope. New York's mayor said the estimate for numbers in the tower atD the time of the first impact was between 10,000 and 20,000. A report> last night said the death toll may still be way above the 5000F reported New Yorkers missing. The UK is reporting 100 British citizensF or so confirmed missing and almost certainly dead but with this likely7 to rise to the 'mid-100s'. Direct UK government quotes..  C I thought I caught a reference to an underground shopping Mall lasttD night which is the first I'd heard but I was channel hopping and may5 have misheard. Anyone know if there was such a  mall?     I >less than 3 hours.  A significant number from above the fire floors made F >it down, so the stairways must have kept the fire out, at least for a  C Please point a reference to any verifiable story of people escapingUD from above the impact point. I have seen such reports but, on closer8 inspection, they turned out to have the towers confused.   >while.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:02:42 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <tnh3qt07fredd8vllmdnim4jl8trt4gpjt@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:56:37 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert@ Deininger) wrote:D    H >I hope and expect that taller buildings will go up to replace these.  IH >expect there will be a better approach to the problem of intense fires.  C I doubt insurance companies will allow it. Compare risks. Strike on E Pentagon. 25% max building damage and 200 max deaths. With the WTC it-B is as if a jetliner crashed on the Pentagon and the entire complexD collapsed in sympathy. Risk analysis will probably come into play in future.O  E But if we can build them in future  to withstand anything short of ane atomic bomb then do it.u   ><E >A few defeatists think we should give terrorists a say in our futurerK >architecture, but most folks don't seem to think so.  There will always be E >an abundance of easy (if less spectacular) targets, if evil wants toiF >exploit them.  I believe the best course is to remove or mitigate theI >evil, not to hunker down and hope the evil doesn't notice us next time.  G >If New York didn't have skyscrapers, the bastards would try to destroy1 >something else.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:17:47 +0100$0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA1E75B.1040F4A3@uk.sun.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:a > U > In article <3BA0EA96.9E85B8EF@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:t > >cK > > I see from CNN that a senior executive in Sun was among those killed ond > > Tuesday. > >E- > > My commiseration to you and your company.o > L > A friend of mine works for Sun here in the Chicago area. He said he lost aN > lot of friends Tuesday. Sun had 2 floors of the south tower, IIRC 23 and 24. > M > It's hard to say this, but if "only" 3700 people are missing, then over 90%s- > of the people in the two buildings escaped.o  < It took us a long time to account for all our staff but our ; information is that none of our NYC staff are missing. Thisn= information was published on cnet. We did however tragically gB lose an executive who was on one of the American Airlines flights.  ; The whole company has been profoundly affected by this and  = by the loss of life in our customers many of whome were also n	 friends.    ; We can only reflect on the fact that we were very lucky to n9 have managed to get our staff out of the WTC building and ; can only offer our sympathies to the families and collegues  of the people who did not.   Regardse Andrew Harrisona Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:59 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>:( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <klh3qtg2qtgplss2338mbvov38b1sleh72@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:11:35 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Roberto Deininger) wrote:w  D >In article <edg1qtsv9bri6sstrero7qlk4knq9id273@4ax.com>, Alan Greig ><a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: > G >> So why did NATO bomb Serbian rail bridges during scheduled passengertH >> train times and not in the middle of the night? Does that make NATO aA >> terrorist organization? My guess is that it was thought highlyeE >> unlikely a train would be on the bridge at any particular time buta >> that turned out to be wrong.i >aI >A mixture of incompetence and misfortune?  I don't believe NATO did thateJ >on purpose.  I also don't think they've been commanded with much skill inI >recent years.  Too many operations have been planned to look cool on thefG >evening news, rather than to accomplish a legitimate military purpose.d    On that we are 100 in agreement. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:57 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>H( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <17h3qtc4fu97fjlgsskbotjrvdk3h6tug4@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:00:08 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (RobertM Deininger) wrote:   4 >In article <EMieHvT4VUal@eisner.encompasserve.org>,/ >koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:- > K >>    Structural steel buildings are often designed to hold up a minimum ofcJ >>    2 hours in an intense fire, time for those who can to get out.  Both6 >>    towers stood up to the fires for over two hours. >@K >Almost exactly 1 hour for the South Tower.  An hour and 45 minutes for the"- >North Tower, according to a timeline I read.t > J >Time enough for at least some people to walk down from the 100th floor or >higher, and escape.  E People on floor 100 of the second tower to be hit made it out if theysC started down as soon as the first tower was hit ignoring the publictE address system which told them to stay put.  If everyone had tried to C evacuate at the same time the stairwells could not have handled the  rush.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:24:33 +0100r0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA1E8F1.148ECD1C@uk.sun.com>   John McLean wrote: > I > I see from CNN that a senior executive in Sun was among those killed on 
 > Tuesday. > + > My commiseration to you and your company.  > 
 > John McLeant >   @ Thank you, we have a lot of people in our City Financial office = who have been very badly hit by this terrible event. We have mA very close contacts with our NYC office and the customers in the e4 Finance district and many of them are still missing.  @ I am going with a number of people from the Sun office in londonC to the US embassy in London today to sign the book of condolencies 2 that they have opened there.   Regards  Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architecto   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:56:37 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>C( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <ier3qtcij2mccs0gbpeovpidesbju917h2@4ax.com>  E On 13 Sep 2001 22:01:41 -0400, Craig Prescott <cpp@lorien.ekkaia.net>n wrote:   >a >Alan Greig wrote: >>N >> Several structural engineers have pointed out that as well. But note again:E >> It was designed not to topple under a full speed aircraft hit. ThelO >> architects got most of it right but screwed up somewhere with the fuel fire.l >eD >Just a thought...  Does modern aviation kerosene burn significantlyF >hotter than the fuel of 30 or 35 years ago?  I don't know the answer,B >but it seems conceivable (performance-enhancing additives?).  ForB >safety reasons, I can also imagine the opposite is true.  Anybody >know?  E To the best of my knowledge there is no significant difference. AfteriE all later 707s through 767 all still fly (or did until recently)  anddE all use the same fuel today -  although engines perhaps upgraded. Can B you imagine what would happen if there were multiple different jetA fuel types for commercial aircraft and the wrong type was loaded?p  D I believe Concorde is an exception to this and there might be one orB two others (military etc). Concorde was granted its air worthinessA certificate back last week after modifications and BA will resumeeE passenger flight to New York next month. I think the first flight was D due to touch down at JFK sometime within the next two weeks carrying< BA staff just to refresh cabin crew procedures prior to full< commercial service. Current events may delay that of course.  E In this case the engineers didn't just give up and I don't suggest wef= immediately give up building huge towers but minds need to beo, concentrated as after the Concorde disaster. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 10:06:05 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <sUMyTiKSiR61@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  ] In article <3BA1E8F1.148ECD1C@uk.sun.com>, andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes:  >  > John McLean wrote: >> =J >> I see from CNN that a senior executive in Sun was among those killed on >> Tuesday.t >> r, >> My commiseration to you and your company. >> i >> John McLean >> . > B > Thank you, we have a lot of people in our City Financial office ? > who have been very badly hit by this terrible event. We have _C > very close contacts with our NYC office and the customers in the e6 > Finance district and many of them are still missing. > B > I am going with a number of people from the Sun office in londonE > to the US embassy in London today to sign the book of condolencies t > that they have opened there. >    	Andrew,  A 	I'm sure many of us share in you and your company's sorrow.  The ; 	enormity of the loss for many is still hard to comprehend.2  3 	We will pray for all the families touched by this.    				Robe   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Sep 2001 05:03 CDT,' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t) Subject: Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMSs- Message-ID: <14SEP200105035329@gerg.tamu.edu>   + David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes...o
 }krish wrote:tH }> We have developed a GUI for one of our product using Java. When i wasH }> testing this GUI on an OpenVMS ALPHA7.2-1 with JVM 1.3.0, i found theH }> performance to be abysmal.Every buttom click would take a few minutesI }> to respond and display the contents on the screen. I observed the samerH }> behaviour on all other JVM,like 1.2 flavours(our GUI required JVM 1.2E }> or more).But,the same GUI when run on a Windows machine, perform'so }> very efficiently. } D }Whenever things crawl on VMS that run quickly elsewhere it's almost }always the file systemnJ }and or RMS versus the cached filesystems/disk IO on pretty much all other }OSs.-E } Try installing DECram, and put all of your products files on there.  }Or  if you can get toI }VMS 7.3 there's disk read caching, which should speed things up too.  IfD }you can't do eitherB }play with the SET RMS settings and see if cranking them up helps. } 	 }Regards,p } 
 }David Mathog  }mathog@caltech.edu   " It isn't always the file system...  C There's also a good possibility that there are insufficient process C quotas. It doesn't matter how much memory you put in the box if you A aren't using it - like if your working set quota (or, even worse,.B extent) is only a megabyte or two. (The working set process quotasA on the DEFAULT account on a newly shipped V7.2-1 Alpha VMS system D is only a smidge under 2 megabytes - 4000 pagelets - for the workingA set quota and only 8 megabytes for the working set extent. Unless D this has been increased, or are set each time a new account is made. This is often "sub-optimal".)    --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:13:00 +0200 / From: "Jan Mnnich" <moennich@data-consult.com> $ Subject: programming rms file system/ Message-ID: <9nss5i$9na$06$1@news.t-online.com>   	 hi there,   J i have an ansi-c library for writing cgi programs called ecgi and compiledJ it under vms successfully. this library has a function for uploading files viamH http. when i upload a binary file (gif file for example) files over 32KBI have a LF terminator somewhere in the file allthough i've opened the fileh> with the parameters RFM=STM (stream) and no record terminators1 RAT=NONE. is there anything i didn't concidered ?c   1000thnx jan mnnichl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:49:44 +0200H5 From: "GWDVMS::MOELLER" <moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de>u( Subject: re: programming rms file system. Message-ID: <E15htLk-0004t5-00@gwdu42.gwdg.de>  1 Jan M=F6nnich <moennich@data-consult.com> writes:TL > i have an ansi-c library for writing cgi programs called ecgi and compile= d L > it under vms successfully. this library has a function for uploading file= sKL > via http. when i upload a binary file (gif file for example) files over 3= 2KBcL > have a LF terminator somewhere in the file allthough i've opened the file=  B > with the parameters RFM=3DSTM (stream) and no record terminators5 > RAT=3DNONE. is there anything i didn't concidered ?R  6 In my experience, the important option is "ctx=3Dstm",1 which completely bypasses RMS record handling forl (disk!) files.  ? With "ctx=3Dstm", parameters RFM, RAT, MRS can be chosen freelyh; so as to best reflect the file's structure, for the benefiti. of other programs eventually reading the file.  L Wolfgang J. Moeller, Tel. +49 551 201-1516/-1510, moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.= deL GWDG, D-37077 Goettingen, F.R.Germany     |    Disclaimer: No claim intende= d!L http://www.gwdg.de/~moeller/ ---- <moeller@gwdg.de> ---- <w.moeller@ieee.or= g>   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 08:54:58 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)C5 Subject: Re: Q-Bus device compatibility DRQ3B - DRQ11-3 Message-ID: <MYVdXiJeXe7r@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <20010913.22581861@waugh.met.co.nz>, Kevin Waugh <waugh@met.co.nz> writes: L > Can anyone tell me if a DRQ3B card from a MicroVAX 3000 will work in a=20= > * > MicroVAX II to replace a suspect DRQ11 ? >   E    I don't believe those two cards perform the same function, but I'md(    not all that familiar with the DRQ11.  J    If they are compatable, the DRQ3B will work on any Qbus (watch out for 3    the front rail if that's really a 3300 or 3400).h   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:08:11 GMTe& From: GreyCloud <drholland10@home.com> Subject: Re: Rape me!t( Message-ID: <3BA1BBD0.25EC1ABF@home.com>   Steve Martin wrote:f   > "Adam H. Kerman" wrote:t >i9 > > Don't try to compile frantically while you're moaning 9 > > alongside a bright desktop.  Some ethernets confront,i; > > disrupt, and proliferate.  Hey, robots transport arounda2 > > unlimited data centers, unless they're opaque. >n > (snip) > 7 > Anyone know what this garbage is all about? I've beenl8 > seeing it on many newsgroup postings in several groups! > lately... Hmmmm................n  + Sounds like the XP version of Clippy to me.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:24:55 GMT 2 From: see.sig@for.email.address (Peter B. Steiger) Subject: Re: Rape me! 6 Message-ID: <3ba210e2.286051@news.cheyne1.wy.home.com>  + After wild and crazy guy Steve Martin said:-E >>Somebody else suggested it has something to do with a virus. AFAIK,rJ >>that's not the case, although it's conceivable that a virus or worm that1 >>spreads via newsgroups would use the technique.,  9 On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:51:43 +0100, Mr Extraordinary sez:e$ >Would you mind elaborating on that? >fD >I presume you mean that it uses the technique to evade spam filters >the same as the spammers.  < Most self-appointed spam censors and/or commercial ISPs that: filter spam have strict rules about NOT censoring based on< content.  The idea is that they don't want some biased humanC making arbitrary decisions about what to kill and what not to kill.a  A For that reason, and because it's just plain more time-efficient,o8 automated spam filters don't kill messages based on any 9 particular words in the title or the body of the message.e< Instead, they look for excessive reposting of the same text.7 If I post my ad "Buy my porn video Debbie Does Clipper"d> 1000 times, the filters will pick up on the fact that the same6 person posted the same message 1000 times (I think the: scoring system used is called Breidbart Index or something9 like that) and my ad will get cancelled, deleted, and alle  kinds of mean nasty ugly things.  ; But if I write "Buy my porn video Debbie Does Clipper" and y= follow that with a couple of paragraphs of randomly-generatedK@ text that varies from one message to the next, it slips in under7 the BI radar by stastically appearing to be 1000 uniqueh	 messages.w   I hate it when that happens.     Peter B. Steiger Cheyenne, WY ----1 If you reply by email, send it to pbs at com dot m4 canada (or vice-versa).  All advertisements will be   returned to your postmaster, eh!   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:20:03 GMTo* From: "Rod Smith" <rodsmith@rodsbooks.com> Subject: Re: Rape me!e1 Message-ID: <3l4tn9.guo.ln@speaker.rodsbooks.com>o  < In article <tvd2qt8qiu1f1486lrijs4hhrh85pvarom@4ax.com>, "MrC Extraordinary" <blissful.confusion@btremovethisinternet.com> wrote:   H > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:20:02 GMT, "Rod Smith" <rodsmith@rodsbooks.com> > wrote: > > >>In article <3BA0A512.31804596@bellsouth.net>, "Steve Martin" >><ecprod@bellsouth.net> wrote:s > E >>Somebody else suggested it has something to do with a virus. AFAIK,bE >>that's not the case, although it's conceivable that a virus or wormr6 >>that spreads via newsgroups would use the technique. > % > Would you mind elaborating on that?s > E > I presume you mean that it uses the technique to evade spam filterst > the same as the spammers.e  D I was simply speculating that a virus or worm designed to spread viaG newsgroups might use this technique to evade spam filters. I know of no E such virus or worm, but of course that doesn't mean that such a thingh doesn't exist.   -- w! Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.comr http://www.rodsbooks.com1 Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configurationn   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:59:39 +0200a= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>u  Subject: Re: rcp adds linefeeds?5 Message-ID: <3BA1AADB.D0F3400E@contrastmediagroep.nl>i   Big Bird wrote:   E > Apparently, rcp adds a linefeed character after every record. I can H > find no mention of this `feature' in the documentation. How can I tell  > rcp to stop molesting my file?  " Fake the file to be stmlf already:  % $ set file/attr=(rfm:stmlf) your.filed $ rcp your.file host:your.file   Then on the remote host:  # $ set file/attr=(rfm:fix) your fileA   Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 07:54:20 -07001 From: charles_gilley@hotmail.com (Charles Gilley)lL Subject: Re: Reading an application log file.... how does search/type do it?= Message-ID: <a46e1a08.0109140654.4ad57543@posting.google.com>   v charles_gilley@hotmail.com (Charles Gilley) wrote in message news:<a46e1a08.0109131247.29a73923@posting.google.com>...F > Given an application log file that is open and being written to by aG > live application.  I can use type/cont to monitor updates.  Or, I can E > search the log file.  Now, I want to write an application that williH > access this log file (read only), but no matter what parameters I pass  > on the fopen, the fopen fails. > % > So, how does type and search do it?  > 	 > thanks,a >  > chgo  E Okay, found references in the FAQ (PROG19) and then on to the Wizard.f We'll see what happens.....    ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:54:39 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>9 Subject: Re: remove  DQA0 drivers (EIDE disks) from VMS ? J Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0109141644120.23922-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  * On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Alfons Grammer wrote:  L >+With current AXP21264 systems the IRQs 14, 15 are used for the EIDE disks, >+DQA0/1, DQB0/1.eN >+I have to use these irqs for an parallel I/O interface, as I did in the past+ >+with AXP21064 and AXP21164 based systems.o >+- >+I removed the EIDE device at SRM console byq# >+    >>> isacfg -rm -slot 0 -dev 6>N >+and expected, that then the DRQ driver would not be loaded by VMS ( v. 7.1-2L >+with patches/upgrades). However, the DQA/DQB devices are still there after >+reboot, with err count = 1.A >+K >+How can I remove the DQ devices permanently from VMS? I want to be shure,kN >+that I can't get any conflicts between DQ and the parallel interface driver.    Check:o0 1. - set in SYCONFIG.COM (included in template):  $ STARTUP$AUTOCONFIGURE_ALL == 0   2. - include the command:t( $ MCR SYSMAN IO AUTOCONFIGURE/EXCLUDE=DQ  ? BUT... not loading a driver does NOT *guarantee*, that the EIDE %  controller will not send interrupt !n  = Can anyone comment the "shared interrupt on PCI" possiblity ?1= (especially if DQdriver allow that, driver must be build with =  this feature [forward interrupt to another driver] - AFAIK).i    Regards - Gotfryd   -- OE =====================================================================tF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME). $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 04:32:06 -0700, From: vuillec@post.ch (Charles-Henri Vuille)( Subject: Searching CDA$READ_ANAlYSIS.EXE< Message-ID: <21149adb.0109140332.c44a6a3@posting.google.com>   Hello,  B I am searching the CDA Converter for reading DDIF file format on a@ AXP. On a VAX this file was : SYS$LIBRARY:CDA$READ_ANALYSIS.EXE.   Regardso   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 10:20:35 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nsvil$cp0$1@bob.news.rcn.net>r  H In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131041190.18653-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,/    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:a- >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:- >-K >> In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109130819090.16972-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>, 2 >>    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: >> >K >> >I'm not a fanatic Cutler-worshipper (or hater), but this belittling of   his F >> >role is a puzzler, and is easy to prove wrong, if you talk to the  people >> >who were actually there,   >> n> >> How do you think I know about what he did in the early 70s? >tK >I'm really not after causing anyone apoplexy or anything, but I don't meansD >"at DEC" in the early '70's. Did you work side-by-side, in a direct) >management role, or directly under him? a  7 Neither.  IF he had a tech job to be done he would haveb8 submitted it to my group.  The people who worked FOR him9 all submitted jobs to my group.  We provided a service tot< the people in his group who needed it.  You won't understand= the implications of the following but we also had our officesr< in the same building and drank from the same coffee machine.       > ... Did you work on the same8 >projects?  (I don't doubt you, just trying to clarify.)  A See above. We provided a technical service.  You won't understandrB because you're too young and not experienced in the ways computing was done back then.a >pE >> ..and if you keep engineering history separate from the history ofp >> Orifice Politics. >> a- >> Dammit.  I'm not talking about politics.  t >tB >If you're talking about anything in which more than 2 people were$ >involved, I'd assert that you are.   : No, I'm not.  I'm talking about how the work involving the: development of an operating system was done in those days.    % > Maybe that means one can't separatenI >the things I suggest at all, but I do feel that they are fairly confused K >here.  Of course, I do recognize that they were fairly confused then, too.r  = The reason you're confused is because you don't know how work : was done back then.  People didn't generally type in theirA programs on-line (there was no such thing in Cutler's area...only = the PDP-10 provided on-line computing service in those days).dB These people used coding sheets, submitted them to us to transformA into a specified flavor of bits, and went back to their office tot write more code on _paper_.    <snip>  > >> I haven't given my personal opinion nor have I described my >> personal dealings with him. > F >Did I mis-decipher attributions?  I thought it was you that described& >Cutler as "a manager that couldn't."  >c- >(BTW, I don't think he was a born manager --n  < He wasn't; that's why he couldn't.  But, AFAIK, he never got> himself back into the technical side of the biz..he might have when he moved to west coast.  ! > ... I think he would be happier G >if there were sufficient time for him to just do it himself.  Educatede >guess.)   No.  :     >0" >> In his case, he dropped bits.   >Y% >Parity error? <g>  What did he drop?d   20 of them.g   > G >> I had no problems with alpha males; I've had heated discussions with@B >> them but no anal retentive problems.  Cutler had other kinds of >> problems. >rK >I don't doubt it, we all do.  This probably isn't an appropriate place forkJ >you to reveal what you consider someone else's shortcomings, but it would. >seem less personal if there were more detail.  @ I'm not talking shortcomings, although that's difficult to avoid; in the case of Cutler.  I'm talking about work done w.r.t. e( how an operating system got developed.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:19:39 -0500f+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)G Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141032360.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>y  , On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  J > In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131041190.18653-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,1 >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:- > M > >I'm really not after causing anyone apoplexy or anything, but I don't meancF > >"at DEC" in the early '70's. Did you work side-by-side, in a direct+ > >management role, or directly under him? e > 9 > Neither.  IF he had a tech job to be done he would haveo: > submitted it to my group.  The people who worked FOR him; > all submitted jobs to my group.  We provided a service tor* > the people in his group who needed it.    * What service and what group, if I can ask.  H > You won't understand the implications of the following but we also hadA > our offices in the same building and drank from the same coffee,
 > machine.  H Um, that's not entirely fair.  I was there myself, though only on one orI two occasions, and I was probably only waist high.  I did witness (and be A mostly bored through) a couple of coffee machine chat sessions.  p  G BTW, we learned about caffeine withdrawal before my father learned thatpC setting a least upper bound on cups of coffee drunk from the coffeesI machine located immediately outside one's office would prevent having therH DT's late Saturday morning.  Sorry, don't recall which building -- could find out, but it was Parker St.m  @ Anyway, perhaps I'm only trying to understand what I heard then.  C > See above. We provided a technical service.  You won't understandtD > because you're too young and not experienced in the ways computing > was done back then.r  I I likely will understand, or at least with not much assistance.  What didkJ you do?  Was it like revision control?  Surely it was more than punch cardE or paper tape entry!  Perhaps something more akin to proof-reading?  r5 Keeping code honest, some sort of pre-test debugging?r  ' > > Maybe that means one can't separaterK > >the things I suggest at all, but I do feel that they are fairly confusedlM > >here.  Of course, I do recognize that they were fairly confused then, too.: > ? > The reason you're confused is because you don't know how workc > was done back then.  y  0 Please note, I didn't ever say *I* was confused.  F > People didn't generally type in their programs on-line (there was no@ > such thing in Cutler's area...only the PDP-10 provided on-lineD > computing service in those days). These people used coding sheets,H > submitted them to us to transform into a specified flavor of bits, and: > went back to their office to write more code on _paper_.  I Sorry, madam, but I indeed have experience in how programs were developed B on paper.  I can't say I wrote anything useful, (or user-ful), butJ programmed little things in Fortran, *AFTER* doing a flowchart (still haveC the stencil) and a coding sheet, used punch card machines (and made G mistakes and deliberately folded, spindled, and mutilated!), and had tom2 debug a deck of cards that I dropped and shuffled.  > > He wasn't; that's why he couldn't.  But, AFAIK, he never got@ > himself back into the technical side of the biz..he might have > when he moved to west coast.  J Um, they like to call him System Architect of NT, I believe.  He wrote theG spec, and code, I hear.  I don't blame him for leaving (much), since heiH probably saw that DEC wouldn't be developing any more big OS's and built4 himself a pretty cushy place to continue to do that.  # > > ... I think he would be happierxI > >if there were sufficient time for him to just do it himself.  Educated.
 > >guess.) >  > No.  a   Assertion?  Source?   $ > >> In his case, he dropped bits.   > > ' > >Parity error? <g>  What did he drop?h > 
 > 20 of them.l  G You can't blame Cutler for that.  The pdp-11 was in existence before heoG came to DEC from DuPont.  I think you're really mad at Gordon Bell!  So G this starts to sound, again, more like a resentment that makes sense.  m Perhaps something like o  E "The -10 never had the address space limitations of the -11, thus the I expenditure of time and money on a kludge of the -11, later known as VAX,:F was silly since there already existed a system that could do what they were trying to do."g  G But, as I understand it, the market for the -11 in lab and control appstH was bigger than the -10 ever was (that's not what the -10 was for).  YouI just would never sell a -10 to a guy who just needed a little box for his J lab, so the -11 *was* justified, at least at the beginning.  I mean, after1 all, that's the kind of stuff DEC was founded on.a  I I won't speak to what the -10's raison d'etre was, but perhaps you would?r  B > I'm not talking shortcomings, although that's difficult to avoid= > in the case of Cutler.  I'm talking about work done w.r.t. h* > how an operating system got developed.    F This may be more clear when you tell what group you were with and what service you provided.i   -- o< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:09:00 -0700c) From: Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>)B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)/ Message-ID: <3BA239AC.5F4F5219@beagle-ears.com>u   Phil Mendelsohn wrote:C > This may be more clear when you tell what group you were with and- > what service you provided.  E Having observed Barbara's participation on alt.folklore.computers andrA alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possibly later managing,nB a group origianlly called tape duplication services, later turningA into Software Distribution Center for 36-bit systems. And she had.D a close personal relationship with some or all of the senior TOPS-10/ developers, but was never a programmer herself.e  e, On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:H > > People didn't generally type in their programs on-line (there was noB > > such thing in Cutler's area...only the PDP-10 provided on-lineF > > computing service in those days). These people used coding sheets,J > > submitted them to us to transform into a specified flavor of bits, and< > > went back to their office to write more code on _paper_.  B We are talking early 1970's here. If this was how things were done: at DEC, then it would have been a technological backwater.  ? 1) Lots of PDP-11 software developemnt (including all hardware n>    diagnostics) was indeed done on TOPS-10, which had a cross-    assembler and linker system.rA 2) RSX-11D had a resonable Time-Sharing system running on PDP-11,i    as did RSTS-11.  C Either of these systems would have allowed online editing of sourcesA code, feeding into a version control system. Just because Barbaras@ ran "the data entry shop" used by lots of departments, including@ RSX, and she did not see such submissions, it does not mean that such work did not take place.i  > Most of the work I did from 1975 to 1980 was related to kernel= add-ons to RSX-11M: Device drivers and real-time applications ? industrial data acquisition, factory control, and data communi-r= cations. I was very impressed with RSX-11M, and I can confirmn= that the module headers in EVERY kernel module listed D.C. asm< the original author, and about 25% of later modifications in? the core modules also carried his initials. Barbara essentially-= claims that his name is there only because he was the managerM> for the group; I find that hard to believe. I am more inclined= to believe that he was an extremely gifted system programmer,n? and an obsessively detail oriented control freak. I can believeo> that he would not have been fun to work for, but the work that2 came out of that group was of the highest quality.  ? I can also believe that he was a key influence on the design of9? the VAX/VMS architecture, whcih was indeed a close co-design ofs hardware and software.  ? On the other hand, I have also observed VAX machines running ont< VMS and VAX machines running on 4.3BSD, and the BSD machinesC delivered much better user performance on the same iron horsepower.iA I am willing to believe that TOPS-10 was essentially as quick and A nimble as BSD. But this has to be tempered with the understanding ; that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code in the RMSdA (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no equivalent ink; Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the businessaA data processing that was the reason for the existence of VAX/VMS.o  < The PDP-11 market was fractured into about a dozen differentE operating systems, which made it hard for DEC to manage. Essentially,rA there were several product lines for hardware and each operating e> system was its own product line. This was good for customers, B because there were separate product lines each with their own DEC @ sales teams *and* VARs competing for the customer's business, soA all of them were very responsive. But it was bad for DEC, becauseiA the product lines would beat each other up. Management was deter-l? mined not to repeat that, so there was a religious adherence to = VMS as the one true system for the VAX. Only after 4.3BSD had A established a very strong foothold, did DEC create a UNIX product-A line: Originally called Ultrix, then Digital Unix, and now Tru-64h
 or some such.t  > DEC fumbled both the personal computer and workstation markets@ in inter-divisional squabbles. Just as Robin, Rainbow and PRO-11< could each have spawned a viable PC prodict line, so could a< workstation business have been built on either MicroVAX/Unix< or a cost-reduced DEC-10 architecture (Mars-like). It didn'tB happen, and it is riduculous for 32-bitters and 36-bitters to keepA shooting at each other while the current (or should I say recent)g? management is pissing away the 64-bit business. Which only goest> to show that it was not an issue of evil individualt, but of a2 dysfunctional senior corporate management culture. --  B / Lars Poulsen - http://www.beagle-ears.com - lars@beagle-ears.comB   125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:43:01 +02001( From: Matthias Koch <koch@weblab-edv.de>. Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache- Message-ID: <3BA241A5.3280F224@weblab-edv.de>    David Beatty wrote:N > B > What privileges does your command file try to set, and are those. > privileges authorized under the VAX account?    E The command file does not set any privileges. With the simple script:0   $ DIR USER:[WORK]  $ EXIT  G submitted via a PERL-script from Apache into VAX$BATCH I get the output 
 (logfile):    4 $ type APACHE$COMMON:[000000.SPECIFIC.DEUAXP]out.log  ; %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorizedh Directory USER:[WORK]w  9 2367N_00.DPF;1                70  13-SEP-2001 18:41:55.77)9 2367N_01.DPF;1                34  13-SEP-2001 18:41:56.38o9 2367N_14.DPF;1               140  13-SEP-2001 18:41:56.71i   Total of 3 files, 244 blocks.t8   APACHE$WWW   job terminated at 14-SEP-2001 17:26:47.90     Accounting information:iH   Buffered I/O count:              81         Peak working set size:     725UG   Direct I/O count:                11         Peak page file size:     O 42565   Page faults:                    966         Mountedu volumes:             0A   Charged CPU time:           0 00:00:01.32   Elapsed time:     0" 00:00:01.82u    9 The DIR command works, but I don't understand the messager %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV     Bye, Matthias   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:50:13 +0200-( From: Matthias Koch <koch@weblab-edv.de>. Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache- Message-ID: <3BA24355.3686418D@weblab-edv.de>O   Jim Agnew wrote: > G > in the job do a set verify, then do set proc/priv=all, then do a show= > process /full (or /all?)E > and compare what the process gets with the doccos for your thing...   G I solved the problem by granting APACHE$WWW SYSPRV. As the system is inuA a secure network, this should not be a problem. Funnyly still any4E command sumbitted to the batch queue results in a %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV,nH not all requested privileges authorized, but at least my application now works.   For example:  
 $ set veri $ set proc/priv=all- $ exit   results in:a  4 $ type APACHE$COMMON:[000000.SPECIFIC.DEUAXP]out.log  ; %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorizedp $ set proc/priv=all9; %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorized1 $ exit8   APACHE$WWW   job terminated at 14-SEP-2001 17:45:05.80     Accounting information: H   Buffered I/O count:              81         Peak working set size:     7480G   Direct I/O count:                20         Peak page file size:     m 41755   Page faults:                   1009         Mountedr volumes:             0A   Charged CPU time:           0 00:00:01.41   Elapsed time:     0t 00:00:02.79,     Thanks,t Matthias   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:01:06 +0200t2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>. Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from ApacheG Message-ID: <3ba2290c$0$25872$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   ; "Matthias Koch" <koch@weblab-edv.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag.' news:3BA241A5.3280F224@weblab-edv.de...d > David Beatty wrote:  > >oD > > What privileges does your command file try to set, and are those0 > > privileges authorized under the VAX account? >  >dG > The command file does not set any privileges. With the simple script:s >a > $ DIR USER:[WORK]e > $ EXIT >gI > submitted via a PERL-script from Apache into VAX$BATCH I get the outputa > (logfile): >I >n6 > $ type APACHE$COMMON:[000000.SPECIFIC.DEUAXP]out.log >v= > %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorizede > Directory USER:[WORK]e >d; > 2367N_00.DPF;1                70  13-SEP-2001 18:41:55.77 ; > 2367N_01.DPF;1                34  13-SEP-2001 18:41:56.38>; > 2367N_14.DPF;1               140  13-SEP-2001 18:41:56.71o >i > Total of 3 files, 244 blocks.o: >   APACHE$WWW   job terminated at 14-SEP-2001 17:26:47.90 >s >   Accounting information: F >   Buffered I/O count:              81         Peak working set size: > 725 D >   Direct I/O count:                11         Peak page file size: > 42567 >   Page faults:                    966         Mounteda > volumes:             0C >   Charged CPU time:           0 00:00:01.32   Elapsed time:     0 
 > 00:00:01.82r >o >s; > The DIR command works, but I don't understand the messageP > %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV >p >n > Bye,
 > Matthias   Hi!h  E Guess, the user under which apache is running, and whose login.com isnJ executed, whenever a batch process starts, duesnot have all the privileges$ required somewhere in his login.com.   Regardsa   Ren   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:23:00 -0400i- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>r. Subject: Re: Submitting Batch Jobs from Apache2 Message-ID: <Q9qo7.25862$Z2.359480@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Matthias Koch" <koch@weblab-edv.de> wrote in messagec' news:3BA24355.3686418D@weblab-edv.de...a >... > For example: >e > $ set veri > $ set proc/priv=all, > $ exit >v
 > results in:  >k6 > $ type APACHE$COMMON:[000000.SPECIFIC.DEUAXP]out.log > = > %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorized  > $ set proc/priv=alli= > %SYSTEM-NOTALLPRIV, not all requested privileges authorized: > $ exit  E You probably have a SET PROC/PRIV=something in SYS$SYLOGIN. The firstrE NOTALLPRIV error was before your three line .COM was even started. If 4 SYS$SYLOGIN is not defined as a logical then look atK SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGIN.COM.I do not have Apache running anywhere, but I do noti: think granting SYSPRV to APACHE$WWW is a good thing to do.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:52:31 +0400d* From: "Yuri Ermakov" <ermak@cbr.ryazan.su>
 Subject: Test / Message-ID: <9nsk2b$a90$1@vega.ineco.ryazan.su>o   Inginy this test message..   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:18:10 +0900e* From: X Terminal for sale <nospam@spam.no>0 Subject: Tokyo: Selling/trading Motif X Terminal/ Message-ID: <140920011718107041%nospam@spam.no>l   Hi,s  G I bought this X/Motif terminal about 5 or so years ago for 2000 USD andwA I only used it for a few weeks. Now, I am offering it for sale or0 trade.  E It's a DEC VS2000 with 16" monitor and I remember I had put in RAM toaC the maximum possible, but can't remember how much this was. It also E doubles as a VT 420 if not booted into X. It's ideal for use as a syso4 admin terminal and it's all still in original boxes.  F I was thinking about 30.000 yen. However, I am willing to trade it forG something I could use on my G4, like a used flat panel display (VGA) orh some USB/Firewire peripherals.  & The location is Tokyo, Shibuya, Ebisu.   -- l Please reply to: Benjamin , where the domain is: Tokyomail {_d_o_t_} Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:57:23 +0900a From: BK <bk_usenet@yahoo.com>B Subject: Tokyo: Selling/trading VAX workstation (VMS, Ultrix, BSD)4 Message-ID: <140920011657232216%bk_usenet@yahoo.com>   Hi.f  E I was using a Mac notebook for the office stuff and a VAX workstationo2 for the heavy stuff and experimental or fun stuff.  F Recently, I got myself a G4 with OSX/Darwin after Apple went Unix withG their latest OS and now I am a little short of space with the VAX and It decided to sell or trade it.  D This could be ideal for someone who would like to learn or play with> VMS or install Ultrix or FreeBSD and turn it into a server ...  > VAXstation 3100/38, 40 MB RAM, 2GB RZ29 plus 500 MB page disk.  ' 19 Inch colour monitor, keyboard, mouset  C OpenVMS 6.1 Japanese installed with full set of documentation, plusI= English VMS documentation plus a complete set of CDs with allY applications in all languages.  ? I was thinking about 30.000 yen, but I would accept a trade foroF something I could use on the G4, i.e. OSX server software (for which ID am prepared to pay something extra, original sw only) or RAM or some; USB/Firewire peripheral or a Rio MP3 player. Make an offer.e  " Location is Tokyo, Shibuya, Ebisu.  D PS: I also have a DECstation 5100 and a DEC Alpha 3000, but they areB located in Australia and I'd want more money for them, but you may6 contact me about those by email if you are interested.   --   Please reply to: Benjamini, where the domain is: Tokyomail {_d_o_t_} Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:12:29 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 2 Subject: Re: usage create/term/window!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 Message-ID: <J7po7.226$YP.8839@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 Works for me:r  # $cre/term/win=(X_POS=100,Y_POS=100)t   Maybe it's the square brackets?g   _Fred    upadhyaya wrote in message ... >Hi,; > I tried to create a decterm using the following commands. 3 >create/term/window=[X_POSITION-100,Y_POSITION-100] 3 >create/term/window=[X_POSITION=100,Y_POSITION=100]  >n >p, >Both of them failed. The error displayed isB >%DCL-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spelling >o >What is the correct usage?i >a >With regards,
 >Upadhyaya >a >m   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 08:26:27 -0700/ From: on_the_move4ever@yahoo.com (Rick Nickles)t$ Subject: VAX 7000's End of Life Date= Message-ID: <b2faac46.0109140726.24cbc7b1@posting.google.com>    Greetings!!e  D         I'm wanting to see if there is anyone who knows what the EndD of Life date for the VAX 7000's is going to be?  Do you know who the0 people who make this decision within Compaq are?   Thanks   Rick Nickles Stora Enso Oyj   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:25:48 GMT " From: Art Rice <arice@myhouse.org>1 Subject: Re: VAX 7800 Systems or CPUs needed ASAPi: Message-ID: <w2ko7.1774$XR2.795940@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>   Phil Mendelsohn wrote:  # > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Bob C wrote:  > > >> One of our customers lost a lot of VAXes in the WTC attack. > C > It goes without saying that loss of life is the greater loss (andhK > tragedy) but my wife and I find that it is easier to make new people thaneE > a new VAX.  Too bad, because the VAX is the one that's replaceable.e >   E Speaking of...  Time to batten down the hatches because of Gabrielle.r& Here's hoping it stays south of Tampa.   -- t Art Rice Tandem Admin Special Data Processing Corp ----------------------------* All opinions are my own and do not reflect* the views of the above mentioned employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 04:38:53 -0700& From: nick_s_downie@hotmail.com (Nick)) Subject: VMS scripts for a SAS ProgrammerY= Message-ID: <9c0952bd.0109140338.500a4f29@posting.google.com>l  ; Hi VMS users.. as a non-VMS techie I'm hoping you can help.e  D I'm running SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) under OpenVMS, whichD creates SAS .log files in the normal way. What I need is some way of@ performing a text search of the log file (which can sometimes beB 1000's lines long), and then summarising the results. eg you couldB search for 'ERROR' 'WARNING' 'Uninitialised variable' etc and then> spool a message to the screen eg 2 ERROR(S), 15 WARNING(S) etc  A I've done this before on Unix using grep, and wc - l etc inside a A c-shell script but have no idea how one would do the same on VMS.    All help much appreciated.   Nick   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:09:12 +0200a) From: "remy.younes" <remy.younes@free.fr> - Subject: Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmere8 Message-ID: <3ba1f3a3$0$6093$436235c4@news-test.free.fr>  G don't have much time or place to help you more, but try out help searchwI /match, /log and /stat, and have fun writing the little DCL script to putp all this together.   Regards,@ "Nick" <nick_s_downie@hotmail.com> a crit dans le message news:2 9c0952bd.0109140338.500a4f29@posting.google.com...= > Hi VMS users.. as a non-VMS techie I'm hoping you can help.6 >tF > I'm running SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) under OpenVMS, whichF > creates SAS .log files in the normal way. What I need is some way ofB > performing a text search of the log file (which can sometimes beD > 1000's lines long), and then summarising the results. eg you couldD > search for 'ERROR' 'WARNING' 'Uninitialised variable' etc and then@ > spool a message to the screen eg 2 ERROR(S), 15 WARNING(S) etc > C > I've done this before on Unix using grep, and wc - l etc inside atC > c-shell script but have no idea how one would do the same on VMS.g >r > All help much appreciated. >h > Nick   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:38:48 -0400t5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>e- Subject: Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer 2 Message-ID: <UfmhOz1F5iP8Qd3M9eRN7lMWlLbo@4ax.com>  6     The SEARCH command is what you are looking for and would look something like this:   7 $ SEARCH file-name "string-1","string-2",...,"string-n"f  4 where file-name is the file you are searching on and< the string arguements are the strings you are searching for.  ;     By default, the output will come to your screen and cani9 be redirected to a file via the /OUTPUT=another-file-name 
 qualifier.  ?     Also by default, a line in file-name will be matched by oneX9 or more occurrences of any string in your list and can bel" modified via the /MATCH qualifier.  3     HELP SEARCH from a VMS command prompt will giveR you additional options.n       Good luck!   David R. Beattyr  % P.S. ... and, yes, I do work for SAS.a  F On 14 Sep 2001 04:38:53 -0700, nick_s_downie@hotmail.com (Nick) wrote:  < >Hi VMS users.. as a non-VMS techie I'm hoping you can help. >rE >I'm running SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) under OpenVMS, whichbE >creates SAS .log files in the normal way. What I need is some way ofsA >performing a text search of the log file (which can sometimes bekC >1000's lines long), and then summarising the results. eg you couldeC >search for 'ERROR' 'WARNING' 'Uninitialised variable' etc and thena? >spool a message to the screen eg 2 ERROR(S), 15 WARNING(S) etc  >/B >I've done this before on Unix using grep, and wc - l etc inside aB >c-shell script but have no idea how one would do the same on VMS. >n >All help much appreciated.s >n >Nick    ------------------------------   Date: 14 SEP 2001 14:53:20 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>t- Subject: Re: VMS scripts for a SAS Programmer 2 Message-ID: <14SEP01.14532079@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  > In a previous article, nick_s_downie@hotmail.com (Nick) wrote:= > Hi VMS users.. as a non-VMS techie I'm hoping you can help.  >   F > I'm running SAS (Statistical Analysis Software) under OpenVMS, whichF > creates SAS .log files in the normal way. What I need is some way ofB > performing a text search of the log file (which can sometimes beD > 1000's lines long), and then summarising the results. eg you couldD > search for 'ERROR' 'WARNING' 'Uninitialised variable' etc and then@ > spool a message to the screen eg 2 ERROR(S), 15 WARNING(S) etc >  hC > I've done this before on Unix using grep, and wc - l etc inside a C > c-shell script but have no idea how one would do the same on VMS.e  D As others have said, SEARCH is similar to grep.  You didn't say whatE version of VMS you have, but if it's recent enough you could create atC DCL command procedure (script) with a series of commands like this:f  G $ pipe search sas.log error/stat/nooutput | search sys$pipe matched | - '   (read sys$pipe x ; write sys$output -l>     f$element(2," ",f$edit(x,"compress"))," error message(s)")  ? If you have an older VMS without the pipe command you can writeeA the output of the search to temporary files and then use the open1& and read commands to find the results.   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVxH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:13:08 -0400o' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centery( Message-ID: <9nsak3$9ps$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagenF news:rdeininger-1309012346340001@user-2ive6o7.dialup.mindspring.com...L > In article <9nro9o$i7r$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> > wrote:   ...5  J > I'm in a cranky mood, and probably sound hotter than I am.  I'm reactingF > harshly to what appears to be something like sympathy for the fiendsC > behind Tuesday's attack.  I realize that many people don't intendb0 > sympathy, but they _appear_ to be offering it.  G I think you need to pay more attention to the actual words than to yourt? instinctive reactions to what you seem to be reading into them.      Perhaps it's just an oldI > habit of bashing America, which is a favorite passtime for some.  Can'tm6 > folks see that it's a poor time for such sentiments?  L When people presume to speak for Americans (you even suggested so explicitlyK in a portion I snipped above) and say things that I strongly disagree with,FD it's *definitely* the appropriate time to express that disagreement.   ...   > > Some folks seem to looking for nice things to say about some( > really rotten people around the world.  J You really aren't paying attention to what the people you're debating with are saying.f  H NO ONE has said anything 'nice' about the terrorists - unless you defineK saying that they had reasons for what they did as 'saying nice things'.  DosK you truly believe that they *didn't* feel they had reasons, and that othersu" aren't upset for the same reasons?  $ > Some folks seem to think we should> > back down, in subtle ways.  (Let's not build tall buildings.  J That's a judgement call - very much like increased airport security.  It'sB only common sense to construct buildings so that they will surviveI anticipatable disasters.  I'd like to believe that the world will reach aoK point where the kind of disaster that happened Tuesday won't be one we have L to worry about, but it's clearly not there at the moment - and how to get itJ there is very much what a lot of the current discussion seems to be about.   > Let's noti9 > hit the terrorists, because then they'll hit us again.)V  L NO ONE has said anything about not hitting the terrorists, they've just saidH to do it responsibly (and try to start addressing some of the underlying, causes) to avoid creating *more* terrorists.   > Some folks seem toI > think we shouldn't take direct action against bad guys, just because we  > aren't perfect ourselves.e  E NO ONE has said, or implied, anything of the sort - at least not with J respect to those responsible for Tuesday's events.  If you're seeking someH kind of blanket approval for going after anyone else you might choose toG consider a 'bad guy', dream on:  *that* requires a lot more discussion.f   ...O  J > If I'm "beating my chest", it's only meant as a warning.  I don't expectJ > anyone to pay attention to ME beating my chest.  I'm just surprised thatJ > folks in some parts of the world act like we can be pushed and poked and > we'll never really hit back.  D And that's almost certainly exactly the same attitude a lot of those& responsible for Tuesday's events held.   >1K > > > It is also a mistake to think that Tuesday was enough damage to deter>I > > > America in the slightest.  It the grand scheme of things, it didn't5 even. > > > scratch our paint.  It just made us mad. > > ? > > By all appearences, it made a lot of people stupid as well.. >0I > I wish you wouldn't call people who disagree with you stupid.  It's noto polite.o  K I'm often not all that tactful after the second or third time people simplycG ignore the words they're responding to (at least if I think the subjectsF under discussion is at all important).  But I'll try anyway this time.   >L% > >   There are many things AmericanstC > > > might not understand about the rest of the world, but this isE	 somethingPJ > > > the world seems to forget about America.  A reminder is forthcoming. WhenE > > > the bad guys fight back, we'll fight harder.  We'll win.  We're0 bigger,5" > > > meaner, and more determined. > > J > > Why does such language remind me of Vietnam?  It wasn't true then, and seems7E > > even less likely to be true now.  And, should you have any doubt,e	 Americans-C > > like me will help ensure that, should this country move in thatc
 direction, > > just as we did then. >gK > I think I see what you meant, though a phrase or two seems to have gotten  lost.z > H > The present situation doesn't remind me of Vietnam.  Any similarity ofC > language is probably an accident.  It reminds me of Pearl Harbor.p  I It's understandable that this reminds you of Pearl Harbor (some poll saystH that 66% think it's more serious than Pearl Harbor and another 25% thinkA it's equally serious), but the resemblance is purely superficial.e  I In 1941, an enemy attacked which if successful (and there was a very realhK chance of that) could have eventually occupied America militarily, and that-L enemy succeeded in destroying a major portion of our own military ability toG prevent that from happening.  On Tuesday, an enemy attacked which couldsI never, by any stretch of the imagination, defeat us militarily, let aloneaK occupy us as a result, and destroyed perhaps 0.002% of our population and a-J somewhat comparable percentage of our infrastructure.  I in no way mean toI minimize what happened, but comparing it to Pearl Harbor in anything saveE shock value is preposterous.   > WeC > responded to that attack by attacking.  That's what I forsee now.   > We responded by attacking those who had attacked us, and theirJ formally-declared allies.  We did *not* start attacking countries (such as4 some in South America) who were sympathetic to them.   > WeH > didn't attack randomly then, and we shouldn't now.  We should fight to > win, and then stop fighting.  G Somehow 'not attacking randomly' doesn't reassure me that you're really E saying you're advocating limiting the immediate (and IMO justifiable)1F reaction to those with direct involvement in Tuesday's events.  If I'm* interpreting you incorrectly, I apologize.   >e0 > >   You might prefer a world where people like: > > > bin Laden could come out on top.  If so, tough luck. > >0J > > Nope:  we just want a world where there aren't enough people who feel, withK > > at least some basis, that they have a desperate score to settle with us  to2 > > fuel the activities of someone like bin Laden. >2J > Do you ever consider that they might be WRONG?  (Yes, I suspect you do.)  L It is possible both to feel that what happened Tuesday was WRONG and to feelJ that we ourselves bear some indirect portion of responsibility for it.  IfG you have trouble understanding that, think about it as the same kind of K shared responsibility that other militant groups not directly involved (but3J whom some seem to feel should be included in our response) may have had in1 creating a climate that encouraged such activity.e  G > If America has any blame for Tuesday, I think it is that we toleratedl+ > lesser attacks without a strong response.n >:F > What to do about all the other folks who don't like us is a separateG > question, I think.  They don't have to like us, and perhaps we shouldkK > change some of our policies.  But they mustn't attack us.  Is that in the1' > general vicinity of your own opinion?   0 No, it's not.  But I'll explain how it could be.  J When *we* don't like someone's policies, we don't do anything of the kind:L we use the major forces at our disposal (economic, multi-national, sometimesJ military) to try to change them - even though in most cases their policiesJ have little or no real impact on our country's operation.  In other words,K we're absolutely impossible to ignore - even when we're not actively trying L to affect someone, but just do so anyway because we're huge and most of them; are tiny and we don't even notice when they get stepped on.l  L Most of the people who *really* don't like us live in small, weak countries:L no economic power, not much in the way of a military, no powerful friends toK intercede for them (especially since the end of the Cold War eliminated theGI competition for their support).  Or, in the few cases where the countriesaB have major assets (typically oil, in this context), they're run byJ governments those people hate about as much as they hate us for supporting) them, or by governments that hate us too.   G Given that these people have nothing we want, and that we don't seem tobJ think we need to pay attention to people who have nothing we want, how canK they get our attention when they want us to change something?  The U.N. was-G once at least an option, but since the end of the Cold War we seem morerL willing just to walk away from it when it starts saying things that we don't
 want to hear.!  K So saying "They don't have to like us" sounds a lot like Marie Antoinette's K possibly apocryphal "Let them eat cake":  *we* can easily get away with not J liking *them* without much of a problem, but the reverse is just not true.  L If the only means they have to get our attention when they feel screwed as aJ result of our actions is to attack us, that's what they'll do - even if weF tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".  And the only way toK prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of them (that's called masstA genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, but it's hard to H differentiate it from what some people here seem to be advocating) or to= give them some other way to obtain an (*effective*) audience.f  G Put such a mechanism in place, and then I can agree with your statement'J above.  It still smacks a bit more of noblesse oblige than I'm comfortableJ with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of the hill for at least aL while the best we can do is reign as justly as possible (unless you'd preferC to hand the reins over to the U.N., which is the only other obviousm- responsible course of action I can think of).X   >   > > And your approach seems very( > > unlikely to be the way to get there. >gK > Well, I haven't specified any particular approach, except to not tolerate  > those who attack us. >o > What approach to you suggest?c   I just did above.h   >aH > > > Please excuse my excited tone, if I've misunderstood your meaning. I'mf > > > low on patience today. > >eI > > You indeed misunderstood Paul's meaning, and in a manner that meritede theeH > > response I gave it.  Hope you're more patient tomorrow:  if what you reallyJ > > want is punishment of those directly responsible for Tuesday's events,G > > there's no fundamental point of disagreement, and room for rational > > > discussion of what *other* reactions would be appropriate. > K > If by "other", you mean "in addition" then I agree with you.  If you meani > "instead of", then I don't.   K I meant 'in addition'':  I don't believe anyone would disagree that one way00 or another there's a great deal more work to do.   - bill   >I > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:15:23 -0400m' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r Subject: Re: World Trade Centere( Message-ID: <9nsao3$9q0$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:GrZwjt4fIzkZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...tL > In article <9ns27f$pp1$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:    ...f  I > > That's about the level of support the spurious Tonkin Gulf resolutioni had,L > > and how the protests against the Vietnam war began.  We'll be out in theI > > streets again if that happens again, and, eventually, we'll prevail -  again. > >  >mD > No, for a couple reasons.  First off, this effort has very serious> > U.S. public support.  Across party lines... and even for theB > most part, tree-hugging Libruls are surprisingly outraged (takes4 > quite a bit apparently but it eventually happens): >C >cL http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/4m/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/arti cles/A28252-2001Sep13.html >:E > Three in four said they would support going to war even if it meanta	 "innocent I > civilians in other countries might be hurt or killed." Seven in 10 saidi theyK > would support the United States taking aggressive military action even ifI the D > result was "a long war with large numbers of U.S. troops killed or	 injured."e  K Your words make me suspect that you aren't old enough to remember the levelhL of support Johnson had in 1964 after the supposed attack in the Tonkin Gulf: it was almost unanimous.   >1; > Second, wars are fought quite a bit differently than theyr: > were in 1964.  Kuwait/Iraq and the potentially much more/ > dangerous Yugoslavia campaign went like this:  >p- > 1)  Bomb like crazy and then bomb some more-9 > 2)  Roll in heavy ground troops with heavy air support.  >m? > (Of course, skip 2) above in Yugoslavia's case.. but they hadV2 > more than enough of number 1), so what the hey.) >5? > And this won't be much different.  The difference is that theuB > bombs can be dropped to within a few feet and have been improved# > quite a bit since 1990 even, ref:t  J No, it will be entirely different.  By and large, there will be nothing toF target, unless you go for genocide:  these aren't states and organizedJ military that we'll be attacking, but guerillas - just as in Vietnam.  AndJ the tactics you describe above are precisely those that failed in Vietnam.  L Occupying territory is worthless:  these people don't own any, and just moveD elsewhere.  And the people who'll actually wind up fighting for thatL territory are those who live there, not those you went in to defeat - who'llJ be off elsewhere figuring out how to retaliate on *our* soil, and God helpI us when they finally get hold of some weapon of mass destruction, which I K find it impossible to believe won't be provided to them by people as aghastaI at that kind of behavior as I am and in a better position to do somethingn	 about it.W  I The 'use a bigger hammer' approach isn't very effective if you can't findcE the nail.  We won't be able to, but they will.  Give them the kind of.K provocation you're talking about, and expect to start losing cities withoutdD knowing whom to blame:  they'll stop going for drama, as they did on. Tuesday, and start going for real body counts.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:57:09 +0100e0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center-* Message-ID: <3BA1E285.65812F6C@uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > >dC > > If lessons are not learnt and attitudes do not change, then the-? > > thousands of deaths on Tuesday could be completely in vain.l > >c > I >         The attitudes will change and it will cost us a lot of money tohN >         change them.  But weapons aren't cheap these days.  And as PresidentI >         Bush reminds us, it may take months or years.  One other thing, L >         American war planners learned a big lesson in Vietnam and are wellC >         aware of quagmire situations.  I anticipate 4-6 months ofcI >         cruise missiles, smart bombs and B-52s prior to the mopping up.  >   F No that will not work. In the Kosovo campaign Colin Powell said "we do deserts H we don't do mountains", in the high level bombing campaign that followed more oH smart weapons were used in the the  than have ever been used before. The net G effect however was a relatively low level of damage to the Serbian armyc and  Militia units.  E If Bin Ladin is really the culprit and if the Taliban do not hand himh overH voluntarely then the US and its alies will have to deploy ground troops : and we will have to accept that there will be casualities.   regardsx Andrew Harrisonr Enterprise IT Architectu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:56 +0100h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf8 Message-ID: <hvd3qt088rl41k32t3o9l5cpbp4kppkoug@4ax.com>  D On 13 Sep 2001 20:50:51 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    K >[When asked if he was actually referring to bin Laden, Powell said "yes."]r  ? No he didn't. I watched it live. You could read it that way butcD neither the question nor the response included the name "Bin Laden".E Of course that was the *implication*. Other government spokesmen thene made this clear as well.  , To my memory the question was something like  = Q: Would a particular high profile suspect be in Afghanistan?l A: Yes.m  F Or something similar to the above. Unless I missed further comment butF I doubt it as a later briefing specifically reminded us that Bin Laden; had not been mentioned by name in the question or response.e  F Powell also said something that might imply that Saddam was also a top suspect,   > F >Powell's statements indicated that should the U.S. conclude bin Laden> >orchestrated the attacks, the U.S. could strike Afghanistan.  > N >Those strikes would take the form of a sustained military campaign, Deputy of1 >Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said Thursday. o >tL >"It's going to unfold over time," Wolfowitz told reporters at the Pentagon.P >"One thing that is clear is you don't do it with just a single military strike, >no matter how dramatic."  >eN >When asked what targets U.S. military action might strike, Wolfowitz said "itM >will be a campaign, not a single action. And we're going to keep after thesea: >people and the people who support them until this stops." >t >p >>  J >> Then I hope you're more interested than Rob is in finding other ways to$ >> approach the underlying problems. >> t > D >	Hey... don't pick on me.  Pick up a newspaper or turn on the radioE >	or cruise a few web sites.  The time for talk has long since passedu >	or so it appears.e >m >				Rob   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 08:41:35 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l Subject: Re: World Trade Centero3 Message-ID: <jaR3aVaQRcZO@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  o In article <Wtn4p14Iega+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:   N > Last B-52s I saw were at the "boneyard" being smashed up as part of the SALTK > treaties. We've got much more modern methods of delivering our message tov > the perpetrators.f  F    Some older B-52s have been removed from service, but many remain in    active service today.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 09:49:19 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s Subject: Re: World Trade Center 3 Message-ID: <N9zKzrbRHCds@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  R In article <9nsao3$9q0$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >  > L > No, it will be entirely different.  By and large, there will be nothing toH > target, unless you go for genocide:  these aren't states and organizedL > military that we'll be attacking, but guerillas - just as in Vietnam.  AndL > the tactics you describe above are precisely those that failed in Vietnam. > N > Occupying territory is worthless:  these people don't own any, and just moveF > elsewhere.  And the people who'll actually wind up fighting for thatN > territory are those who live there, not those you went in to defeat - who'llL > be off elsewhere figuring out how to retaliate on *our* soil, and God helpK > us when they finally get hold of some weapon of mass destruction, which IiM > find it impossible to believe won't be provided to them by people as aghastTK > at that kind of behavior as I am and in a better position to do somethingr > about it.  > K > The 'use a bigger hammer' approach isn't very effective if you can't find G > the nail.  We won't be able to, but they will.  Give them the kind ofiM > provocation you're talking about, and expect to start losing cities without F > knowing whom to blame:  they'll stop going for drama, as they did on0 > Tuesday, and start going for real body counts. >   > 	Of course the difference is you have to keep them pinned down7 	for 6-12+ months, hammer all trade routes to and from.a  E 	In the course of the "Vietnam campaign" , we *apparently* came closerB 	to a complete surrender of the North.  What happened was CongressC 	decided that bombing through Christmas 1968 was "immoral", bombingb9 	was halted, the North recovered and the rest is history.   @ 	In Afghanistan, the Russians did/didn't have near the number ofE 	stand off weapons (cruise, guided bombs, carpet bombs) and "treated"eG 	it to a conventional approach, sending in tanks, troops and helicoptereF 	gunships.  When/if an action occurs irregardless of who it is, expectD 	many months of stand off launches and A10 and Apache harrassment of 	pack mule resupplies, etc.e  F 	You call it genocide?  What wonderful language.  Classic FondaVision. 	How about war?    				Roba   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 10:02:25 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)H Subject: Re: World Trade Centert3 Message-ID: <kOMKmUCfoLiK@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  ` In article <hvd3qt088rl41k32t3o9l5cpbp4kppkoug@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:F > On 13 Sep 2001 20:50:51 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >  > L >>[When asked if he was actually referring to bin Laden, Powell said "yes."] > A > No he didn't. I watched it live. You could read it that way but.F > neither the question nor the response included the name "Bin Laden".G > Of course that was the *implication*. Other government spokesmen thena > made this clear as well. >   : 	I cut and pasted that out of the article and in hindsightC 	made a mistake of square brackets.  But it was several lift quotesr. 	and thought that needed to somehow get there.  - 	But here is another view of that same thing:a  C http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28017-2001Sep13.htmlt  O "We are looking at those terrorist organizations that have the kind of capacitytO that would have been necessary to conduct the attack that we saw," Powell said. C "We haven't yet publicly identified the organization we believe was.M responsible. But when you look at the list of candidates, one resides in thatrG region." When asked by a reporter, Powell confirmed he meant bin Laden.gG          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^r   				Robm   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:22:56 +0000.  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade Center / Message-ID: <00256AC7.005A00D6.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    I Would you like to see the same policy that is active in the UK, where thehM government has assumed a stance of appeasement to terrorism in Ireland [until N this situation occurred and now Blair is giving us the spiel about facing downO terrorism] whereby hundreds of terrorists have been released carte blanche fromeO prisons [on both sides] and where one side has done nothing to meet its side ofnP the bargain, and in fact gives us a nudge with a bomb every now and again to tryM and extract something more for itself, which now we've started down that pathc& can only end up with a united Ireland?  M If America took the same path as we have, then you would end up with [eg] binf, Laden holding a position in your government.  L If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then theN underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is no more. Is that want you want?p   Steve Spires        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/14/2001 04:08:07 AM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) J From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 14 September 2001, 4:08 a.m.   Re: World Trade Center          ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageiF news:rdeininger-1309012242050001@user-2ive7ie.dialup.mindspring.com...   ..  K > If it was meant as a message, what range of possible answers do you thinko > they expected?  A When you're sufficiently upset (a phrase that is likely pitifullybG inadequate) at someone who refuses to listen, delivering a message that F can't be ignored may seem better than doing nothing, regardless of the
 consequences.i  J The main difference between what happened Tuesday and what have been dailyG occurrences off and on for decades in many parts of the world (NortherneK Ireland, Israel and the occupied territories, Chechnya and Moscow, parts of,H Africa that I'm not familiar with in any detail, and likely other placesK that I can't think of at the moment or never even heard about) is locality: E we're not used to terrorism on American soil, and seem to think we'reoI entitled to some kind of exemption from it rather than understanding thattL we're simply geographically separated from those who might wish us harm to aD degree that makes us a more difficult target.  The flip side of thatF situation, however, is that if someone decides to go to the trouble ofE hitting us, they're more likely to try to make that hit really count.n   >a0 > I'm just confused by your choice of euphemism.   It wasn't a euphemism.     Your language is usuallyH > rather precise.  If you think of Tuesday as an "avenue of expression",> > then you can likely describe _anything_ with the same words.  H You just about can - and we often do.  How many times have people talkedJ about 'sending a message' to people like Saddam or Milosevic by means that differ markedly from words?e  	   It justr3 > seems to me a misplaced phrase in this situation.v  I That's the problem with such messages:  the recipients (and others in theoH world) often don't take them in the way they were intended.  Exactly theL same problem exists with the kind of 'message' several people here have been advocating sending in return.t   > < > > > And yes, I'm complaining about Tuesday's perpetrators. > >iK > > Then I hope you're more interested than Rob is in finding other ways ton% > > approach the underlying problems.i >tD > There are various underlying problems.  Can we find better ways toI > interact with the rest of the world?  Without doubt.  Should we pretend K > that there are not good and bad forces in the world, and just let the badi, > ones do as they please?  I don't think so.  J You and others keep saying things like your last two sentences above as ifL someone, somewhere had been advocating such a course.  Could you please find5 a single such example to quote before doing it again?d   >oB > But whoever planned and supported Tuesday has no right to expectK > discussion or any say in international affairs.  The "underlying problem"sD > of the moment is to smash them, and hopefully as few bystanders as > possible.   F No, that's not the underlying problem at all:  it's just the immediateI objective.  And we need to do considerably more than 'hope' that we don't J smash bystanders:  we need to make every *reasonable* effort (and possiblyD just a bit more, to make sure other reasonable people perceive it as reasonable) not to do so.n   >rH > I suspect we agree on many points.  But I'm not willing to discuss andJ > seek some perfect solution to the world's problems, until more important > matters are taken care of.  F Exactly why is that?  Do you feel you have more important things to doL during the interval necessary to identify the culprits and move to deal withD them?  Or are you just afraid that if people think about such thingsE *before* action can be taken, they might start to incline more towarduJ justice - harsh and military though it may be - than toward blind revenge?  .   I think killing these bastards is important.H > They will keep destroying innocents as long as they draw breath.  TheyG > might have had some valid complaints on Monday.  They don't any more.   D The validity of the complaints hasn't changed, just the right of theL perpetrators to be heard.  But there are plenty of other people left to talk with.    > I > I'm not lumping everyone with a grudge against the U.S. together.  Just , > the ones who act against us with violence.  I Let's focus just on those responsible for Tuesday's events to start with,tK since there seems to be very little controversy about what should happen to8B them.  As soon as you move beyond that, further discussion becomesI necessary:  I can certainly imagine supporting an international effort tonF address terrorism world-wide, but only as long as that effort includedA significant efforts to deal with the causes of terrorism as well.h   - bill   >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:45:48 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r Subject: Re: World Trade Centere8 Message-ID: <c184qtg5l1hgklushv6ivkogcjotpdq6ht@4ax.com>  D On 14 Sep 2001 10:02:25 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    P >"We are looking at those terrorist organizations that have the kind of capacityP >that would have been necessary to conduct the attack that we saw," Powell said.D >"We haven't yet publicly identified the organization we believe wasN >responsible. But when you look at the list of candidates, one resides in thatH >region." When asked by a reporter, Powell confirmed he meant bin Laden.  D Yes, that was the exchange I saw but at no point did the reporter orD Powell actually say "Bin Laden" as I recall. At a later conference aA Whitehouse spokesman specifically pointed this out when told thataB Powell had confirmed Bin Laden by name as chief suspect. The clear? *implication* was that they meant Bin Laden but Powell was veryt@ careful not to actually say that explicitly. The Washington PostA reporter missed the subtle distinction that Powell was careful toy? make. Powell also hinted that they were looking very closely at  Saddam.e  B It would not entirely surprise me if the chief suspect actually isF Saddam with Bin Laden his patsy. The US/UK might actually be preparingA a massive strike against Iraq while allowing speculation to mount E about an attack on Afghanistan. Both the US and UK are moving massiveiC resources to the Gulf Region at the moment. The UK already has more D troops and ships on the way or already there than at the time of the> Gulf War. Supposedly as part of some strange almost unreportedB exercise. UK has 25,000 ground troops around 30 ships including an@ aircraft carrier (possibly two), helicopter carrier, massive RAFB support and cruise missile nuclear sub(s) and *multiple amphibiousD assault craft* in the region already or on the way. Saddam thinks heD got away with it then....*BANG*. Time will tell and I know I am just speculating here.- -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT)o. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: World Trade Center @ Message-ID: <20010914165414.61385.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>  1 I believe the USA Government should exonerate allh thosee4 people from CIA, NSA, etc .. which helped for a long/ time, the "terrorists" with training, money and  guns...n  / Including arresting the people which helped thec terrorists in the past.P   Regards    FC=20u0 --- Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote: > In article4 > <hvd3qt088rl41k32t3o9l5cpbp4kppkoug@4ax.com>, Alan$ > Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:" > > On 13 Sep 2001 20:50:51 -0500,' > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i
 > > wrote: > >=20 > >=203 > >>[When asked if he was actually referring to bin. > Laden, Powell said "yes."] > >=206 > > No he didn't. I watched it live. You could read it > that way but6 > > neither the question nor the response included the > name "Bin Laden". / > > Of course that was the *implication*. Otherw > government spokesmen thend > > made this clear as well. > >=20 >=204 > =09I cut and pasted that out of the article and in > hindsightt3 > =09made a mistake of square brackets.  But it wase > several lift quotesr2 > =09and thought that needed to somehow get there. >=201 > =09But here is another view of that same thing:p >=20 >rC http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28017-2001Sep13.html1 >=202 > "We are looking at those terrorist organizations  > that have the kind of capacity6 > that would have been necessary to conduct the attack > that we saw," Powell said.6 > "We haven't yet publicly identified the organization > we believe was/ > responsible. But when you look at the list ofy! > candidates, one resides in thatt5 > region." When asked by a reporter, Powell confirmeds > he meant bin Laden.n >        =20 >B> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > =09=09=09=09Robt >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dt F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?t) Donate cash, emergency relief informationw7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/b   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:51:37 -0700 (PDT)o. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: World Trade Centern@ Message-ID: <20010914165137.75118.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>   If you dont remember:i  3 "RAMBO" helped the "Talibans", when the Russians=20 $ were trying to exterminate them !=20     Regardsy   FC=20 0 --- Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:6 > In article <9nsao3$9q0$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" > <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:s > >=20 > >=205 > > No, it will be entirely different.  By and large,p > there will be nothing to5 > > target, unless you go for genocide:  these aren'tt > states and organized5 > > military that we'll be attacking, but guerillas -m > just as in Vietnam.  And6 > > the tactics you describe above are precisely those > that failed in Vietnam.. > >=203 > > Occupying territory is worthless:  these peoples > don't own any, and just move6 > > elsewhere.  And the people who'll actually wind up > fighting for thath5 > > territory are those who live there, not those youd > went in to defeat - who'll5 > > be off elsewhere figuring out how to retaliate ont > *our* soil, and God help3 > > us when they finally get hold of some weapon of  > mass destruction, which I56 > > find it impossible to believe won't be provided to > them by people as aghast4 > > at that kind of behavior as I am and in a better > position to do something
 > > about it.l > >=201 > > The 'use a bigger hammer' approach isn't veryn > effective if you can't find-5 > > the nail.  We won't be able to, but they will.=20: > Give them the kind ofn3 > > provocation you're talking about, and expect toe > start losing cities withoutH2 > > knowing whom to blame:  they'll stop going for > drama, as they did oni2 > > Tuesday, and start going for real body counts. > >=20 >=206 > =09Of course the difference is you have to keep them
 > pinned downn5 > =09for 6-12+ months, hammer all trade routes to andn > from.i >=201 > =09In the course of the "Vietnam campaign" , wen > *apparently* came closec0 > =09to a complete surrender of the North.  What > happened was Congressu4 > =09decided that bombing through Christmas 1968 was > "immoral", bombing4 > =09was halted, the North recovered and the rest is
 > history. >=206 > =09In Afghanistan, the Russians did/didn't have near > the number of'4 > =09stand off weapons (cruise, guided bombs, carpet > bombs) and "treated"5 > =09it to a conventional approach, sending in tanks,a > troops and helicopter 8 > =09gunships.  When/if an action occurs irregardless of > who it is, expect 2 > =09many months of stand off launches and A10 and > Apache harrassment of  > =09pack mule resupplies, etc.g >=207 > =09You call it genocide?  What wonderful language.=20  > Classic FondaVision. > =09How about war?. >=20 > =09=09=09=09Rob  >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DgL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dl F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilo fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dl  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?r) Donate cash, emergency relief informationh7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:07:43 +0200t& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr* Message-ID: <3BA2395F.9FCF8748@dplanet.ch>   Well stated Bill !  D I certainly don't endorse the methods of the terrorists but I submitF that they believe they held some justifiable reasons to be upset about US policies and actions.  D I also think that a purely military approach to the problem is not aE useful long-term solution.  It may in fact cause terrorists to becomeu# even more extreme in their methods.t  H What is desperately needed is a review of why US actions should engenderE this kind of anger and what steps the US should take to reduce this. :G Compromises both large and small might be very justified if they result2 in a more peaceful world.4  G The US is certainly not the only country whose actions upset others but E mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to change attitudes  everywhere.      John McLeanf        Bill Todd wrote: > A > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagevH > news:rdeininger-1309012346340001@user-2ive6o7.dialup.mindspring.com...N > > In article <9nro9o$i7r$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>
 > > wrote: >  > ...e > L > > I'm in a cranky mood, and probably sound hotter than I am.  I'm reactingH > > harshly to what appears to be something like sympathy for the fiendsE > > behind Tuesday's attack.  I realize that many people don't intend 2 > > sympathy, but they _appear_ to be offering it. > I > I think you need to pay more attention to the actual words than to yourtA > instinctive reactions to what you seem to be reading into them.w >  >   Perhaps it's just an oldK > > habit of bashing America, which is a favorite passtime for some.  Can't 8 > > folks see that it's a poor time for such sentiments? > N > When people presume to speak for Americans (you even suggested so explicitlyM > in a portion I snipped above) and say things that I strongly disagree with,^F > it's *definitely* the appropriate time to express that disagreement. >  > ...- > @ > > Some folks seem to looking for nice things to say about some* > > really rotten people around the world. > L > You really aren't paying attention to what the people you're debating with
 > are saying.s > J > NO ONE has said anything 'nice' about the terrorists - unless you defineM > saying that they had reasons for what they did as 'saying nice things'.  Do M > you truly believe that they *didn't* feel they had reasons, and that otherss$ > aren't upset for the same reasons? > & > > Some folks seem to think we should@ > > back down, in subtle ways.  (Let's not build tall buildings. > L > That's a judgement call - very much like increased airport security.  It'sD > only common sense to construct buildings so that they will surviveK > anticipatable disasters.  I'd like to believe that the world will reach aaM > point where the kind of disaster that happened Tuesday won't be one we havedN > to worry about, but it's clearly not there at the moment - and how to get itL > there is very much what a lot of the current discussion seems to be about. > 
 > > Let's notc; > > hit the terrorists, because then they'll hit us again.)  > N > NO ONE has said anything about not hitting the terrorists, they've just saidJ > to do it responsibly (and try to start addressing some of the underlying. > causes) to avoid creating *more* terrorists. >  > > Some folks seem toK > > think we shouldn't take direct action against bad guys, just because wei > > aren't perfect ourselves.e > G > NO ONE has said, or implied, anything of the sort - at least not with.L > respect to those responsible for Tuesday's events.  If you're seeking someJ > kind of blanket approval for going after anyone else you might choose toI > consider a 'bad guy', dream on:  *that* requires a lot more discussion.i >  > ...e > L > > If I'm "beating my chest", it's only meant as a warning.  I don't expectL > > anyone to pay attention to ME beating my chest.  I'm just surprised thatL > > folks in some parts of the world act like we can be pushed and poked and  > > we'll never really hit back. > F > And that's almost certainly exactly the same attitude a lot of those( > responsible for Tuesday's events held. >  > > M > > > > It is also a mistake to think that Tuesday was enough damage to detereK > > > > America in the slightest.  It the grand scheme of things, it didn'td > even0 > > > > scratch our paint.  It just made us mad. > > >tA > > > By all appearences, it made a lot of people stupid as well.s > > K > > I wish you wouldn't call people who disagree with you stupid.  It's noti	 > polite.w > M > I'm often not all that tactful after the second or third time people simplylI > ignore the words they're responding to (at least if I think the subjectyH > under discussion is at all important).  But I'll try anyway this time. >  > > ' > > >   There are many things AmericansaE > > > > might not understand about the rest of the world, but this is  > something L > > > > the world seems to forget about America.  A reminder is forthcoming. > WhenG > > > > the bad guys fight back, we'll fight harder.  We'll win.  We're 	 > bigger,e$ > > > > meaner, and more determined. > > > L > > > Why does such language remind me of Vietnam?  It wasn't true then, and > seemseG > > > even less likely to be true now.  And, should you have any doubt,y > AmericansdE > > > like me will help ensure that, should this country move in thatp > direction, > > > just as we did then. > >uM > > I think I see what you meant, though a phrase or two seems to have gotten  > lost.I > > J > > The present situation doesn't remind me of Vietnam.  Any similarity ofE > > language is probably an accident.  It reminds me of Pearl Harbor.  > K > It's understandable that this reminds you of Pearl Harbor (some poll says.J > that 66% think it's more serious than Pearl Harbor and another 25% thinkC > it's equally serious), but the resemblance is purely superficial.  > K > In 1941, an enemy attacked which if successful (and there was a very realeM > chance of that) could have eventually occupied America militarily, and thatgN > enemy succeeded in destroying a major portion of our own military ability toI > prevent that from happening.  On Tuesday, an enemy attacked which couldrK > never, by any stretch of the imagination, defeat us militarily, let alonemM > occupy us as a result, and destroyed perhaps 0.002% of our population and ayL > somewhat comparable percentage of our infrastructure.  I in no way mean toK > minimize what happened, but comparing it to Pearl Harbor in anything savee > shock value is preposterous. >  > > WeE > > responded to that attack by attacking.  That's what I forsee now.s > @ > We responded by attacking those who had attacked us, and theirL > formally-declared allies.  We did *not* start attacking countries (such as6 > some in South America) who were sympathetic to them. >  > > WeJ > > didn't attack randomly then, and we shouldn't now.  We should fight to  > > win, and then stop fighting. > I > Somehow 'not attacking randomly' doesn't reassure me that you're reallyeG > saying you're advocating limiting the immediate (and IMO justifiable)tH > reaction to those with direct involvement in Tuesday's events.  If I'm, > interpreting you incorrectly, I apologize. >  > >t2 > > >   You might prefer a world where people like< > > > > bin Laden could come out on top.  If so, tough luck. > > > L > > > Nope:  we just want a world where there aren't enough people who feel, > withM > > > at least some basis, that they have a desperate score to settle with us  > to4 > > > fuel the activities of someone like bin Laden. > >rL > > Do you ever consider that they might be WRONG?  (Yes, I suspect you do.) > N > It is possible both to feel that what happened Tuesday was WRONG and to feelL > that we ourselves bear some indirect portion of responsibility for it.  IfI > you have trouble understanding that, think about it as the same kind ofbM > shared responsibility that other militant groups not directly involved (buttL > whom some seem to feel should be included in our response) may have had in3 > creating a climate that encouraged such activity.m > I > > If America has any blame for Tuesday, I think it is that we toleratedo- > > lesser attacks without a strong response.r > > H > > What to do about all the other folks who don't like us is a separateI > > question, I think.  They don't have to like us, and perhaps we shouldaM > > change some of our policies.  But they mustn't attack us.  Is that in the ) > > general vicinity of your own opinion?r > 2 > No, it's not.  But I'll explain how it could be. > L > When *we* don't like someone's policies, we don't do anything of the kind:N > we use the major forces at our disposal (economic, multi-national, sometimesL > military) to try to change them - even though in most cases their policiesL > have little or no real impact on our country's operation.  In other words,M > we're absolutely impossible to ignore - even when we're not actively tryingLN > to affect someone, but just do so anyway because we're huge and most of them= > are tiny and we don't even notice when they get stepped on.b > N > Most of the people who *really* don't like us live in small, weak countries:N > no economic power, not much in the way of a military, no powerful friends toM > intercede for them (especially since the end of the Cold War eliminated theoK > competition for their support).  Or, in the few cases where the countriesdD > have major assets (typically oil, in this context), they're run byL > governments those people hate about as much as they hate us for supporting+ > them, or by governments that hate us too.o > I > Given that these people have nothing we want, and that we don't seem toeL > think we need to pay attention to people who have nothing we want, how canM > they get our attention when they want us to change something?  The U.N. wasyI > once at least an option, but since the end of the Cold War we seem moretN > willing just to walk away from it when it starts saying things that we don't > want to hear.R > M > So saying "They don't have to like us" sounds a lot like Marie Antoinette'sfM > possibly apocryphal "Let them eat cake":  *we* can easily get away with not.L > liking *them* without much of a problem, but the reverse is just not true. > N > If the only means they have to get our attention when they feel screwed as aL > result of our actions is to attack us, that's what they'll do - even if weH > tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".  And the only way toM > prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of them (that's called masstC > genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, but it's hard tooJ > differentiate it from what some people here seem to be advocating) or to? > give them some other way to obtain an (*effective*) audience.r > I > Put such a mechanism in place, and then I can agree with your statement@L > above.  It still smacks a bit more of noblesse oblige than I'm comfortableL > with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of the hill for at least aN > while the best we can do is reign as justly as possible (unless you'd preferE > to hand the reins over to the U.N., which is the only other obvious / > responsible course of action I can think of).r >  > >n" > > > And your approach seems very* > > > unlikely to be the way to get there. > > M > > Well, I haven't specified any particular approach, except to not toleratec > > those who attack us. > >r! > > What approach to you suggest?d >  > I just did above.c >  > >tJ > > > > Please excuse my excited tone, if I've misunderstood your meaning. > I'm. > > > > low on patience today. > > >fK > > > You indeed misunderstood Paul's meaning, and in a manner that merited2 > the0J > > > response I gave it.  Hope you're more patient tomorrow:  if what you > reallyL > > > want is punishment of those directly responsible for Tuesday's events,I > > > there's no fundamental point of disagreement, and room for rationali@ > > > discussion of what *other* reactions would be appropriate. > >oM > > If by "other", you mean "in addition" then I agree with you.  If you meanw > > "instead of", then I don't.d > M > I meant 'in addition'':  I don't believe anyone would disagree that one way^2 > or another there's a great deal more work to do. >  > - bill >  > >D > > -- > > Robert Deininger > > rdeininger@mindspring.com3   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:56:43 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>! Subject: WTC and High Availabilty=> Message-ID: <20010914125643.954.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>  , Should be interesting to account, at the end- of this tragedy, how the High Availability=20n/ Systems (OpenVMS, Solaris, etc..) helped in theg+ restart of the companies which were in WTC.-5 I really would like to know about it, and I think the 6 IT world will have conditions to improve the hardwares. and softwares after an analysis of the disater4 recovery procedures. Probably we will have new kinds4 of harwares, softwares, interconnection technologies! and policies of security systems.t   Regardse   FC=20    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dt F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief informationt7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:12:13 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>% Subject: Re: WTC and High AvailabiltyaJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0109141857480.24797-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  ) On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Fabio Cardoso wrote:u  . >+Should be interesting to account, at the end- >+of this tragedy, how the High Availability p1 >+Systems (OpenVMS, Solaris, etc..) helped in them- >+restart of the companies which were in WTC.m  :  Hm... the primary question may be: "how much of companies# locates the ComputerCentre in WTC".i8 IMHO there not so much reason to hire a large place with8  good air-conditioning (BIGGEST power that typical room)2  etc. in the centre rather on periphery of city...8   Althought yes, some companies may do that. Will anyone
  comment ?  7 >+I really would like to know about it, and I think thet8 >+IT world will have conditions to improve the hardwares0 >+and softwares after an analysis of the disater >+recovery procedures.  !  Buy OVMS and use shadowing ? -:)o  4 >+                   Probably we will have new kinds6 >+of harwares, softwares, interconnection technologies# >+and policies of security systems.n    Why NEW ??*9  Cluster with shadowed disks + trained with the switchingh< administrator(s) (including PROCEDURES for fast restart, not8 manual RUN SOMETHING, then @SOMETHING, then...) is able 6 to restart (manually) even a non-clustered application7 in some minutes... OK, at least minimal checking of the ; database may be required and "spare" shadowset[1] of courses? also :) (to have "momentarily" backup of the state after crash)a< [1] mirrorset on HS* is better - can be on all 3 sites... :)  	 >+Regardsn    Also - Gotfrydg -- sE =====================================================================AF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEd. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE ======================================================================   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:17:29 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>R Subject: Re: [OpenVMS V7.2-1] SHOW USER/SUB sometimes doesn't show allsubprocessesJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0109141709040.23922-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  ( On 13 Sep 2001, Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  5 >+I recently noted a problem on my VMScluster where ae >+' >+	$ SHOW USER/BATCH/FULL/INTER/NET/SUBy >+% >+didn't list all subprocesses. [...]- >+Am I alone ?    I am not sure :)   9  But have in my archive one other anomaly with SHOW USERSd> (little cut to fit in 80 chars and only first 2 lines listed):  7       OpenVMS User Processes at 19-AUG-2001 12:09:19.63l7     Total number of users = 2,  number of processes = 4t4  Username  Node   Process Name    PID       TerminalD            XXX    _VTA3238:       24AAC570  VTA3238: (disconnected) = GS         XXX    GS              24ABB51B  VTA3235: TNA3234:mD                                                  (Host: 10.0.XX.YYY)  5  The disconnected process was owned (also) by GS, but 5 was disconnected while hangs on MOUNT. Can't remembera# the OS version, probably VMS 7.2-1.e    Regards - Gotfryd -- iE =====================================================================mF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================d   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.512 ************************