1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 15 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 513       Contents: Re: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York Re: Bank of New York; Re: Big black helicopters (Yet another OffTopicXPostedRant)  Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Format SCSI disk on AS200 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)  Re: I hate Compaq  More Rumors in the wake...# Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK ( OT: WTC Scenario discussed last November Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center 1 Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime 1 Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)  Update licence in Deccampus  Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date # Re: VLC keyboard connector pinouts?  Re: VSXXX-JA headphones , Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use? Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: WTC and High Availabilty  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 03:04:53 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Bank of New York - Message-ID: <874rq5y4oa.fsf@prep.synonet.com>     William_Bochnik@acml.com writes:  B > I'd be interested as well - my wife was unable to do any bankingA > with them since the incident - we were half jokingly commenting C > yesterday "Sure put primaries in tower 1 and backups in tower 2 - B > they'd never both be out at the same time..." - seriously anyone > have any info on this?  = Not that much of a joke! When the WTC was bombed in the early < 90's, many picked up the phone to the contracted backup site vendor.   = "Sorry, you're the <mumblth> one to call in the last 20 min."   > Few bathered to check if OTHER companies from the WTC used the% services of the folks they engaged...     Yet another common mode failure!   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:53:08 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Bank of New York , Message-ID: <3BA2D099.ECB15DA2@videotron.ca>   William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote: L > I'd be interested as well - my wife was unable to do any banking with themK > since the incident - we were half jokingly commenting yesterday "Sure put K > primaries in tower 1 and backups in tower 2 - they'd never both be out at = > the same time..." - seriously anyone have any info on this?   K It isn't just those 2 towers that were destroyed. The wind generated by the H collapse, as well as the "earthquake" would have cause lots of damage to@ neighbouring buildings across the street all around the complex.  M World trade 7 collapsed fully, yet it was across the street from the WTC main G towers. What I find most amazing is that some street lights stayed up !   K Another thing to consider is that gas and power would have been cut ASAP in 4 the area to reduce the risk of fires and explosions.  N And then there is the issue of the dust/smoke and the fact that the whole area( is closed off (or was during last week).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:56:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Bank of New York , Message-ID: <3BA2D159.A4C78559@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 3 > I believe nowadays it is better to install remote  > sites 1 > really remote: with NAFTA a company can install & > secondary sites in Canada or Mexico.  M There are data privacy issues which would make the export of personal data to K your backup site in a different country problematic. Also consider that the H USA closed its borders and all flights were cancelled, so while the dataL centre in Canada might be able to come back up, you still have to provide anN office, telephones, terminals/PCs and telecom lines to your employees, and youZ can't move those employees that far when the transportation infrastructure is inoperative.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:36:09 +0100 0 From: "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>D Subject: Re: Big black helicopters (Yet another OffTopicXPostedRant)3 Message-ID: <9ntt94$lti$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>   + <politics2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message 4 news:3b9c4cae.595227667@news.jamison1.pa.home.com... *SNIP*H > welfare recipients (a.k.a. the royal family), the government of FranceG > has imposed hiring/firing criteria that's bringing the country to its   H Hmm, last growth reports I saw were : US in a negative growth situation,G the EEC nations all with slow but steady growth. In fact France were in  the top 3  France in the top 3.   C > knees, and nations that have implemented socialized medicine have G > people waiting in line for the simplest of services.  So I ask again, G > why would the U.S. want to model itself, even in the slightest, after G > other nations who are apparently incapable of properly taking care of 
 > themselves?   F Failing to control TB effectively suggests that America needs to learn something from someone.   E > propaganda such as corporations are always as evil, CEOs are always C > heartless, and every citizen is a victim of evil corporations and = > heartless CEOs, and is therefore unjustifiably downtrodden.   C One thing I noticed about the French is that they really don't view B work as the be-all and end-all of their lives. They are definatelyC onto something there, it's in direct contrast to the UK and the US, " and they seem much happier for it.  = Unfortunately for the US, they will be going back to good old 0 Reganomics for the forthcoming War on Terrorism. *SNIP*   Cheers,  Rupert   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700/ From: eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com)  Subject: Bomb The Mosques < Message-ID: <8a998c95.0109141259.414b8d3@posting.google.com>  E Osama claims he is fighting against the U.S. in part because he wants B to protect the sanctity of Islamic Holy sites and because the U.S.D supports Israel who is defiling Islamic Holy sites.  Because of this) he is a hero to many, much like Mohammed.   E I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day for 40 days F until Osama and his followers surrender.  If he is truly religious andF willing to die to protect the holy sites of Islam, he will surrender. D If not, he will be vilified by his own people.  We could make a list= of the 40 most holy sites and bomb them in ascending order of F holiness.  The people would know many days in advance which were to beE bombed and when.  Prior to the bombing we make it clear that if Osama E does not surrender in 40 days we will come in and get him anyway.  We D see from history that during the Jewish Wars, Rome eventually had to/ deal with radical Jewish sects in the same way.   ? Muslims worship together in their mosques the militant with the D sublime.  The militant may be getting financial support in part fromD the tithes of the sublime.  We must make the statement that the onlyB way to protect these sites, is for the militant to surrender.  TheC fact is that they will continue fighting until Kingdom come, unless E fighting results in the desecration of their holy sites.  Whatever we E do we must not make him a martyr.  It would be better to show his own E people that he is not a Holy man and cares nothing for the holy sites C of Islam so that his own people would be willing to die to take him F out.  This would be much more effective then sanctions or embargoes or! targeting military installations.   F Unfortunately, Americans don't have the stomach to take action in thisE way.  Although I have heard the President and the Congress state that F they would use whatever means necessary to bring these men to justice.D I seriously doubt that they would ever consider bombing the Mosques.   Just a thought,   	 Eusphoros     f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<N9zKzrbRHCds@eisner.encompasserve.org>...T > In article <9nsao3$9q0$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > >  > > N > > No, it will be entirely different.  By and large, there will be nothing toJ > > target, unless you go for genocide:  these aren't states and organizedN > > military that we'll be attacking, but guerillas - just as in Vietnam.  AndN > > the tactics you describe above are precisely those that failed in Vietnam. > > P > > Occupying territory is worthless:  these people don't own any, and just moveH > > elsewhere.  And the people who'll actually wind up fighting for thatP > > territory are those who live there, not those you went in to defeat - who'llN > > be off elsewhere figuring out how to retaliate on *our* soil, and God helpM > > us when they finally get hold of some weapon of mass destruction, which I O > > find it impossible to believe won't be provided to them by people as aghast M > > at that kind of behavior as I am and in a better position to do something 
 > > about it.  > > M > > The 'use a bigger hammer' approach isn't very effective if you can't find I > > the nail.  We won't be able to, but they will.  Give them the kind of O > > provocation you're talking about, and expect to start losing cities without H > > knowing whom to blame:  they'll stop going for drama, as they did on2 > > Tuesday, and start going for real body counts. > >  > @ > 	Of course the difference is you have to keep them pinned down9 > 	for 6-12+ months, hammer all trade routes to and from.  > G > 	In the course of the "Vietnam campaign" , we *apparently* came close D > 	to a complete surrender of the North.  What happened was CongressE > 	decided that bombing through Christmas 1968 was "immoral", bombing ; > 	was halted, the North recovered and the rest is history.  > B > 	In Afghanistan, the Russians did/didn't have near the number ofG > 	stand off weapons (cruise, guided bombs, carpet bombs) and "treated" I > 	it to a conventional approach, sending in tanks, troops and helicopter H > 	gunships.  When/if an action occurs irregardless of who it is, expectF > 	many months of stand off launches and A10 and Apache harrassment of > 	pack mule resupplies, etc.  > H > 	You call it genocide?  What wonderful language.  Classic FondaVision. > 	How about war?  > 	 > 				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:30:40 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques * Message-ID: <3BA2850F.9DD4BB1A@virgin.net>   "Eusphoros@yahoo.com" wrote:   > Just a thought,  >    Not a Cardassian by any chance?  --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:32:37 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques / Message-ID: <3BA2A053.ABBB2C68@cableinet.co.uk>   D "Eusphoros@yahoo.com" wrote a load of total drivel, to which I reply  N Don't you have a law against inciting racial hatred like we do here in the uk?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:03:11 GMT 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) & Subject: Re: Format SCSI disk on AS200& Message-ID: <GJor9B.DI0@world.std.com>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:   L >I have a SCSI disk that I need to low-level format on a AS200 4/233 running >VMS 7.3.  Can this be done?  I Do you really mean low-level format or "format" in the PC sense?  That is  just equivalent to $ INIT.  E If you really mean low level format (usually not done on a SCSI disk) F I guess you could whip up a small program that does IO$_FORMAT QIOs to	 the disk.    -Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:53:11 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)( Message-ID: <9ntjka$9pj$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nt84i$hap$5@bob.news.rcn.net...   ...   = > Who wrote it?  I knew and worked with a number of brilliant E > coders.  They chose to stay in the coding half of the organization. ? > Those who were competenet tended to chose the management half 6 > of the org.  I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.  F I have.  He wrote fast, he wrote tight, and he wrote well.   Any other
 questions?   - bill   >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:56:34 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)( Message-ID: <9ntjql$a1l$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message : news:20010914165952.13986.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com... VAX, PDP, PRIMS, Cutler ....  # You are so connected to the past...    Forget all about these subjecst 1 . you should think in the future possibilities of # HP+Compaq and OpenVMS+Itanium ! ! !   @ Perhaps that thought makes people prefer to talk about the past.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:59:12 -0500 + From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141455400.13962-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  ) On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Fabio Cardoso wrote:    > VAX, PDP, PRIMS, Cutler .... >=20% > You are so connected to the past...   0 He who forgets the pasta is doomed to reheat it.  ! > Forget all about these subjecst 3 > . you should think in the future possibilities of ( > HP+Compaq and OpenVMS+Itanium ! ! !=20  ; Obrigado, mas eu prefero pensar de os computadores real. :)    > FC=20 2 > --- Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:0 > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >=20 > > > In article > > > > <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131300110.9914-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,5 > > >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: 3 > > > >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > > > > 5 > > > >> I was not a devotee.  And I also happened to  > > own DEC stock. > > > > 6 > > > >But surely you were not pleased at the decision > > to drop the pdp-10 to  > > > >focus on the VAX? > > >=205 > > > The VAX existed before the decicion to drop the  > > -10 product line/ > > > occurred.  Having a fact-based opinion on  > > bone-headed thinking4 > > > does not make me a devotee.  You need to learn > > about business > > > just a tad more. > >=203 > > That may be, but I fail to see an answer to the  > > posed question in 6 > > there.  I apologize if my attempts to evaluate the > > limits of your6 > > reliability as an historical source (and no source
 > > is all1 > > encompassing) have been in any way offensive.  > >=208 > > Sometime, I would be most interested in hearing your > > tale of DEC and 7 > > projects in which you were involved in toto, as I'm  > > sure it would be8 > > "Chock full 'o nuts," but doubt that I'll be able to > > convice you that is a 6 > > good use of your time any time in the near future. > >=20 > > Respectfully,  > > PCM  > >=20	 > > --=20 8 > > I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked > > Compaq,51 > > but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put 
 > > together.  > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DkK > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=u =3D=3D > F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazili > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brK > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  =3D=3D >=204 > __________________________________________________/ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? + > Donate cash, emergency relief informationA9 > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/n >=20   --=20i+ I liked HP, and at one time I liked Compaq,i7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.u   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:55:26 +0000 (UTC)n7 From: dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert)d< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nuqge$mi4$1@sword.avalon.net>e  . "Martin Nisshagen" <martin_xp@msn.com> writes:  K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net...   B >: I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't0 >: a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.  Q >Regardless how many times you repeat things for yourself it's quite obvious thatP> >someone at AOL hasn't the slightest clue what he talks about.    E I don't know anything about Cutler, or particularly care, but someonetD posting from MSN telling someone he is clueless because he's posting from AOL is priceless...   --H Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net  " He who laughs last thinks slowest.   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:29:06 +0000 (UTC)l7 From: dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert)e Subject: Re: I hate Compaq+ Message-ID: <9nuov1$m4b$1@sword.avalon.net>t  0 "aaron spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net> writes:  H >process technology.  They may not do some of the exotic things that IBMK >does, but then again, they can't, they have too much volume to rely on SOI:C >wafers.  And where as AMD may only need a couple of Copper capableBM >deposition machines, Intel would need a lot more, so much more that it wouldhL >totally backlog all of the equipment manufactures if it wasn't planned well >in advance.    I If it is true that AMD is shipping around 25% of the x86 CPU market these J days, and Intel has the other 75% (the others are probably <1%) then IntelI only outships AMD 3 to 1, in the x86 market.  Your argument doesn't quite K work for me, though due to Intel's number of fabs, versus AMD's one megafabpG in Dresden doing all the copper and (next year) SOI makes it easier for' AMD to move quickly than Intel.h  H AMD's fab in Austin, which makes Durons, doesn't do copper, and won't beG producing any of the .13u parts at all (I think they are supposed to be G retooling it or converting it over to flash once the Duron has moved to  .13u early next year)1   --H Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net  " He who laughs last thinks slowest.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:16:23 -0500l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-# Subject: More Rumors in the wake...1' Message-ID: <3BA2C807.6CEF2A53@fsi.net>.  + This was received today from a co-worker...w   > Hey everyone..J > I hope my information here will prove to be totally wrong, but I thought > I'd share it . lJ > We got a phone from a very close a friend who works for the White House,K > telling us to stock on groceries by Saturdays and stay put on Sunday, andaK > that he simply cannot elaborate any more on the subject. Which translatese/ > on something might be taking place on Sunday.t >  > I hope he is wrong e  F Like many of us, I was born in peacetime to a veteran of WW-II and hisF wife. This is all as new to me as it is to many (if not all) of you. IH don't know what to expect. Still, we put gas in the Explorer tonight andD got some groceries so if there's a run on the station and the store,H we're all set for the first week or two. A much longer siege will see us among the rest of the masses...e  F Then again, next week may be as "normal" as a week can be in war-time. We'll see...   -- h David J. Dachtera/ dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:47:11 -0400t  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>, Subject: Re: New SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file4 Message-ID: <1010914193706.881A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Fabio Cardoso wrote:    > People here didnt learn yet.1 > The most important and powerful DCL command is:x >=20 > $ HELP >=20	 > REgardss >=20 > FC=20   8 Hi, Fabio, generally you are correct, HELP is the way to7 go, but this particular command is obscure.  I rememberS7 the first time I needed to do this, it was hard to findh9 the command.  I was looking around for HELP SET AUDIT/LOGp6 and similar commands and it took a while to look under HELP SET AUDIT/SERVER.  8 If you just look at help for set audit, it looks like it7 ought to be under SET AUDIT/JOURNAL, but that only letst9 you re-direct the log to a new location, not create a new 9 version of the existing log.  Not finding it there, theret9 are a dozen other "SET AUDIT" possibilities.  The general 7 help text (under HELP SET AUDIT) only mentions that SET.7 AUDIT/SERVER is used to set operational characteristicse< of the audit server process, without specifically mentioning8 the audit log file.  The info Tom Steuver needs is there in HELP, but it isn't obvious.  3 > --- Philippe Bocher <philippe.bocher@euriware.fr>y > wrote: > >=208 > > "Thomas Steuver" <steuver@nku.edu> a =E9crit dans le > > message news:a( > > tq3ua0lg6tfj01@corp.supernews.com... > > > OpenVMS 7.2-1 Alphao > > >a+ > > > What are the commands to create a newa' > > SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL file?  Our'sv5 > > > has become so huge that it is taking almost thee > > entire disk. > > >h
 > > > Thanks,. > > > Tom Steuverl > > >  > > >s# > > help set audit/server (new_log)  > >=20 > > Philippe Bocherr > > Philippe.bocher@euriware.frv > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DsK > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  =3D=3D > F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazili > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brK > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=n =3D=3D >=204 > __________________________________________________/ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? + > Donate cash, emergency relief informatione9 > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/i >=20 >=20   --=20n John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:21:50 GMT-! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> 4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK& Message-ID: <vpBijDA$3po7Ewj8@gol.com>  > In article <OF7A2DD735.FEA38371-ON85256AC7.004C20ED@acml.com>, William_Bochnik@acml.com writest > F >any one know where a copy of the radio show on cd could be pruchased? >m >H > b >                                                                                                 b >                    Alan Greig                                                                   b >                    <a.greig@virg                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      b >                    in.net>                      cc:                                             R >                                         Subject:     Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide  >on Radio 4 in    b >                    09/14/2001           UK                                                      b >                    07:06 AM                                                                     b >                                                                                                 b >                                                                                                  >  >  >iG >On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:52:17 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>l >wrote:m > I >>In case you've missed this, and if you like the series as much as I do,lH >>I know you'd be upset if you missed it, so tonight at 18:30 on Radio 4H >>is "Fit the First" and the series runs every Wednesday for the next 12 >>weeks. >rF >Don't forget, if you are outside the UK, you should be able to get it9 >at  http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/live_feed.html 23:30 EDTr >eE >>Bearing in mind it was written in 1978, I do think that it [HHGTTG]oI >>was amazingly prophetic that it said the 'computer program' (Earth) wasg >>being run by 'ai >>load of white MICE'. >nD >And the HHGTTG itself is a web application years too early. In 1978C >HHGTTG and TOPS-20 were  two of my favourite things. Not sure what E >that says but hey I was only 15 at the time :) Initially the program.C >was only carried on Radio 4 UK FM and not by the regional variants.D >such as Radio 4 Scotland and I had some home concocted dipole stuck( >high on the roof to pull in the signal. >--n >Alanm >s >e >g >. >     A You can buy the CDs from the BBC shop at http://www.bbc.co.uk.  AoH wonderful chance to hear, as often as you want, Ford Prefect explain how he chose his name.   -- o
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:01:09 +0100a From: nic <junk@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK) Message-ID: <3BA2A855.3EA67B55@127.0.0.1>t   Nic Clews wrote: >  > H > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchkikers/ follow the link to the shop, it > details some CDs   Bother.h  & http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/  ) Click the BBC Shop on the left hand side.e   --   Regards, Nic Clews (from home), nic at python dot demon dot co dot uk (play) nclews at csc dot com (work)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:07:04 GMTc2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UKA Message-ID: <YQxo7.19299$yJ1.1072613@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>n  ) Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:eG > (Q: why is full series of Monty Python available is US on DVD and not  > UK?)  I If it makes you feel any better compare how A&E is milking "The Prisoner"tH vs. how it's availble in the UK.  I couldn't believe it when I found outI that in order to do 17 episodes they're taking 10 DVD's (that's 5 sets ats about $35 a pop)!  o   			Zane    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:12 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o1 Subject: OT: WTC Scenario discussed last Novembere* Message-ID: <3BA29C64.5E502391@virgin.net>  B     There's a strange thread over on the Professional Pilots Rumor Network http://www.pprune.org/  6 First message in thread below. Follow ups interesting.       Member # 358472                     posted 13 September 2001 10:42  D                   This was posted on Airliners.net on 30th Nov 2000.  =                   http://www.airliners.net/discussions/generao l_aviation/read.main/336291/                         quote:  F                       When the two towers that make up the World Trade Center weret@                       built, they were designed to withstand the impact of the largest 9                       airliner of the day, the Boeing 707o Intercontinental. The EmpireB                       State Building survived a B-25 medium bomber crashing into it on0D                       very foggy day. It was during the weekend when most people-?                       weren't there, but still, 14 people died.:  B                       Anyone wanna bet that the World Trade Center could survive an%                       767-300 impact?1    D                   Could this have been posted by the perpetrators of this cowardly act?  A                   [ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: smiling  monkey ]     --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 02:22:43 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center- Message-ID: <87heu5y6mk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes::  ? > Very true, but I'd tend to agree with John. The structure waso? > designed to withstand the impact of a four-engine Boeing 707;dF > however, the twin-jet 757 is rather larger, heavier and carries moreF > fuel.  Withstanding the impact is one thing, surviving the resultant9 > fire and subsequent explosions is something else again.y  r> > I don't have numbers handy, but try to understand that theseD > aircraft carry many thousands of gallons of fuel in each wing. TheB > fuel, though burning, permeates the building, spreading the fireF > relentlessly. It just keeps pouring downward. The jet engines likely? > bored deep into the building before their momentum was spent,e6 > carrying the fire along behind in their damage path.  > Watch the second WTC impact carefully; you will notice that itA impacts with a large, 30 deg or so, angle of bank, but it is not, A as I see it, turning. It does mean that a *much* larger number ofi* floors are ripped open to spread the fire.  ? Earlier, there where reports that one of the alledged perps hadl; engineering or Arch degree, as well as the flight training.    -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 02:40:12 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center- Message-ID: <87d74ty5tf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   G > On 13 Sep 2001 22:01:41 -0400, Craig Prescott <cpp@lorien.ekkaia.net>t > wrote:    > >Alan Greig wrote:  D > >> Several structural engineers have pointed out that as well. ButA > >> note again: It was designed not to topple under a full speedhE > >> aircraft hit. The architects got most of it right but screwed upr" > >> somewhere with the fuel fire.  F > >Just a thought...  Does modern aviation kerosene burn significantly@ > >hotter than the fuel of 30 or 35 years ago?  I don't know the: > >answer, but it seems conceivable (performance-enhancingD > >additives?).  For safety reasons, I can also imagine the opposite > >is true.  Anybody qknow?i  C No. 'Back then', Jet B, or JP4 was the common (US) fuel for turbos. D Think of a mix of about equal parts Gasoline, kerosine and diesel..." Yeah, EVIL is the word, but cheep.  F Now the FAA has joined the rest of the world and banned wide cut fuelsB so good old Jet A is the go. AKA kerosine. Plus a few additives to8 stop static build up, iceing and a combustion inhibiter.  G > To the best of my knowledge there is no significant difference. AfterwG > all later 707s through 767 all still fly (or did until recently)  and G > all use the same fuel today -  although engines perhaps upgraded. CanhD > you imagine what would happen if there were multiple different jetC > fuel types for commercial aircraft and the wrong type was loaded?   F > I believe Concorde is an exception to this and there might be one orD > two others (military etc). Concorde was granted its air worthinessC > certificate back last week after modifications and BA will resumebG > passenger flight to New York next month. I think the first flight was F > due to touch down at JFK sometime within the next two weeks carrying> > BA staff just to refresh cabin crew procedures prior to full> > commercial service. Current events may delay that of course.  B Concorde uses Jet A, as far as I know. AC on carriers use JP5, for( fire protection, and the SR-71 used JP7.  G > In this case the engineers didn't just give up and I don't suggest weh? > immediately give up building huge towers but minds need to beo. > concentrated as after the Concorde disaster.   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:59:33 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1409011959340001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <glg3qt89t0hs13titpitini0hk24jpokh3@4ax.com>, Alan Greigo <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:n    tE > I thought I caught a reference to an underground shopping Mall last F > night which is the first I'd heard but I was channel hopping and may7 > have misheard. Anyone know if there was such a  mall?-  J Yes, there was a shopping area.  I don't know if "mall" is the right name, but let's call it that.   J The below-ground part of the towers was confusing to me when I was there. I (I came up out of the subway, so I was disoriented to start with.)  TheretJ seemed to be 2 or 3 levels with shops.  It wasn't easy to tell which towerI I was under at a given moment.  I can't hazard a guess about how well thet basements might have survived.  B I have heard media reports of firemen who have visited some of theH underground spaces.  They reported minor damage (broken glass, etc.) andI soot, but no fire damage.  It seems possible that a fair number of peopleuE are still alive down there.  Other reports have at least one group ofsJ people trapped, but using cell phones to communicate.  They are supposedlyJ uninjured and have some accessible water.  Unless this is another spurious rumor.  K > >less than 3 hours.  A significant number from above the fire floors madeeH > >it down, so the stairways must have kept the fire out, at least for a > E > Please point a reference to any verifiable story of people escapingvF > from above the impact point. I have seen such reports but, on closer: > inspection, they turned out to have the towers confused.  G I can't provide a reference, since most of the time I can't even get toy
 the internet.r  F I have friends who know several people were up there.  I think I couldJ point to 3 or 4 through people I know.  Within the same circle, one personG phoned from a high floor on the North Tower just after the plane crash,iH and he has NOT turned up safe.  That's a small sample, but I consider it: verifiable even though I don't know the people personally.  J I have not seen film of the first plane crash, though I've heard such does9 exist.  In general I've not sought to see these pictures.I  I I did see the film of the second plane crash.  It appears to me that onlypH the south-east corner was outwardly affected by the crash -- perhaps 25%J of the area of those floors.  I expect the building contained the fireballJ somewhat, and it was worse inside than it was outside.  Still, a good partJ of the north-west portion of the building should have been navigable untilE the fire spread.  I don't know how the floors were partitioned, and I J don't know where, or how many, the stairs were.  But the towers were largeC compared to the plane, giving people some time and space to escape.l   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:06:27 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1409012006280001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <17h3qtc4fu97fjlgsskbotjrvdk3h6tug4@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:e  G > People on floor 100 of the second tower to be hit made it out if theybE > started down as soon as the first tower was hit ignoring the publicbG > address system which told them to stay put.  If everyone had tried to,E > evacuate at the same time the stairwells could not have handled thel > rush.t  G Do you know that with any certainty?  I've not found any info about theiJ stairwells.  But I expect the designers would have worried about providing7 enough stairs before worrying about Boeing 707 impacts.h  I The single account of the stair situation I've heard said they were full,a6 but people were moving quickly and without much chaos.   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:26:35 -0500r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>/( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA2BC5B.A95E82E8@fsi.net>    Paul Repacholi wrote:g > [snip]@ > Watch the second WTC impact carefully; you will notice that itC > impacts with a large, 30 deg or so, angle of bank, but it is not,wC > as I see it, turning. It does mean that a *much* larger number ofw, > floors are ripped open to spread the fire. > A > Earlier, there where reports that one of the alledged perps hadP= > engineering or Arch degree, as well as the flight training.r  E Speaking from experience, I can understand how it is possible to rolloE without inducing a turn. No doubt, their intent was just as you say -nB inflict the greatest possible damage by applying such a technique.   --   David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:57:19 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA2C38F.485F1D5A@fsi.net>V   Alan Greig wrote:r > 9 > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:29:36 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"s  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > I > >Very true, but I'd tend to agree with John. The structure was designed D > >to withstand the impact of a four-engine Boeing 707; however, the@ > >twin-jet 757 is rather larger, heavier and carries more fuel. > E > Please point me at a reference for the above claims as they are not-H > substantiated by the Boeing web site. Particularly in relation to fuel > capacity and weight,   Boeing 707:a7 http://www.boeing.com/commercial/707family/product.htmle  B Take note of the maximum gross weight. Be prepared to compare thatD number to the 757, then understand that the lower number will have a> correspondingly lower empty weight as well. Although it is not@ documented on the Boeing site, I have old Flying magazines whichF indicate that the 707's cannot takeoff with both full payload and fullH fuel without being out of spec. (maximum takeoff weight exceeded, and/or balance too tail-heavy).   Boeing 757:=5 http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757-200/product.html_  E It is also interesting to note that while the 707 can carry more fuelSD (at the expense of payload), the 757 has a greater range capability.  F Let's try to not to descend into nit-picking on aircraft details. This is about an act of war.n   -- i David J. Dachtera8 dba DJE Systems9 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:00:56 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>5( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA2C468.1F8CEB13@fsi.net>y   Alan Greig wrote:y > G > On 13 Sep 2001 22:01:41 -0400, Craig Prescott <cpp@lorien.ekkaia.net>  > wrote: >  > >  > >Alan Greig wrote: > > P > >> Several structural engineers have pointed out that as well. But note again:G > >> It was designed not to topple under a full speed aircraft hit. The.Q > >> architects got most of it right but screwed up somewhere with the fuel fire.  > > F > >Just a thought...  Does modern aviation kerosene burn significantlyH > >hotter than the fuel of 30 or 35 years ago?  I don't know the answer,D > >but it seems conceivable (performance-enhancing additives?).  ForD > >safety reasons, I can also imagine the opposite is true.  Anybody > >know? > G > To the best of my knowledge there is no significant difference. After G > all later 707s through 767 all still fly (or did until recently)  and G > all use the same fuel today -  although engines perhaps upgraded. Can D > you imagine what would happen if there were multiple different jetC > fuel types for commercial aircraft and the wrong type was loaded?e  H I read a story recently where a twin-engine recip. was loaded with Jet-A1 and the resulting problems - never left the ramp.    -- m David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 23:16:49 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9nuh71$lu0$1@lisa.gemair.com>  * In article <3BA1E8F1.148ECD1C@uk.sun.com>,2 andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >t >John McLean wrote:e >> TJ >> I see from CNN that a senior executive in Sun was among those killed on >> Tuesday.m >> o, >> My commiseration to you and your company. >> w >> John McLean >> e > A >Thank you, we have a lot of people in our City Financial office b> >who have been very badly hit by this terrible event. We have B >very close contacts with our NYC office and the customers in the 5 >Finance district and many of them are still missing.  >   F I understand that a Compaq Services employee was on one of the planes * that was crashed into one of the towers.    F It may be of interest to some readers here to know that he was flying  to LA to attend CETS.   : I've heard that four other Compaq employees were attending? meetings with customers in the Towers on the day and are still 5 missing.  A >I am going with a number of people from the Sun office in london/D >to the US embassy in London today to sign the book of condolencies  >that they have opened there.c >/  B The outpouring of support from England and elsewhere is moving.  ID heard that they played "The Star Spangled Banner" at the changing of- the guard at Buckingham Palace the other day.-   >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   -Jordan HendersonH jordan@greenapple.comr   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Sep 2001 23:14:02 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.374515.killspam.015f (Wayne Sewell)n( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center. Message-ID: <ttzYZXWI0kWd@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  ` In article <glg3qt89t0hs13titpitini0hk24jpokh3@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   > E > I thought I caught a reference to an underground shopping Mall lastnF > night which is the first I'd heard but I was channel hopping and may7 > have misheard. Anyone know if there was such a  mall?- >   O Maybe they were talking about the Pentagon.  It has such a mall.  Or did.  I've<J only been to it once, and don't know where it is in relation to the impact( site or whether it sustained any damage.     -- rO ===============================================================================rM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxr: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O ===============================================================================nH Randolph Duke (in Trading Places): "Mother always said you were greedy.". Mortimer Duke: "She meant it as a compliment!"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:35:38 -0000m2 From: seibel_r@localhost.localdomain (Rich Seibel): Subject: Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime; Message-ID: <slrn9q4u19.fjp.seibel_r@localhost.localdomain>o  O On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:27:45 +0200, Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:  >Barry Skidmore wrote:G >> I have been looking for Dec C documentation on how to pass arguments I >> to main() at runtime, but have not had any luck.  Could someone pleasevB >> point me in the right direction.  I am using Dec C (V6.0) under >> OpenVMS 7.2.  >n >Try and look at the VMS FAQ ! >s >Arnel  & Make your C program a foreign command.  / For example, if your program is myutil.exe then-   myutil :== $myutil.exe   then you can execute ite   myutil arg1 arg2 arg38  B just as you want.  The args will be passed to the program in ARGV.       -- dD --------------------------------------------------------------------D Rich Seibel, Software Engineer                 (314)579-0066 ext 220D Object Computing, Inc.                           seibel_r@ociweb.comD Need ACE training?                      See http://www.theaceorb.comD --------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:29:49 +0100i From: nic <junk@127.0.0.1>: Subject: Re: Passing arguments to Dec C program at runtime) Message-ID: <3BA2A0FD.B45C84DC@127.0.0.1>l   Rich Seibel wrote: >   ( > Make your C program a foreign command. > 1 > For example, if your program is myutil.exe thene >   myutil :== $myutil.exe >  > then you can execute iti >   myutil arg1 arg2 arg3i > D > just as you want.  The args will be passed to the program in ARGV.  A Just a passing additional comment, the arguments will be passed /tD converted lowercase to your C program, to preserve case on the input$ arguments you'll need to use quotes. e.g.   myutil arg1 "ARG2" arg3o   -- r Regards, Nic Clews (from home), nic at python dot demon dot co dot uk (play) nclews at csc dot com (work)   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:15:24 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)@ Message-ID: <20010914181524.79936.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>  3 Why dont you write a book about the history of DEC,o PDP, VMS...    Or a Movie.,   Bruce Willys as Dave Cuttler...- Dani Aiello las  Ken Olsen ...  ! Kim Basinger as Carly Fiorina :-)o Cappelas as ... himself !=20     Regards:   FC=20l. --- Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote: > Phil Mendelsohn wrote:3 > > This may be more clear when you tell what group2 > you were with andP > > what service you provided. >=20, > Having observed Barbara's participation on > alt.folklore.computers and3 > alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possiblye > later managing,e6 > a group origianlly called tape duplication services, > later turningg. > into Software Distribution Center for 36-bit > systems. And she had3 > a close personal relationship with some or all oft > the senior TOPS-101 > developers, but was never a programmer herself.a > =20b. > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:4 > > > People didn't generally type in their programs > on-line (there was noe3 > > > such thing in Cutler's area...only the PDP-10w > provided on-line4 > > > computing service in those days). These people > used coding sheets,d. > > > submitted them to us to transform into a > specified flavor of bits, andf5 > > > went back to their office to write more code on 
 > _paper_. >=203 > We are talking early 1970's here. If this was how  > things were done1 > at DEC, then it would have been a technologicalr > backwater. >=203 > 1) Lots of PDP-11 software developemnt (includings > all hardware=20t3 >    diagnostics) was indeed done on TOPS-10, whicha > had a cross-! >    assembler and linker system.n0 > 2) RSX-11D had a resonable Time-Sharing system > running on PDP-11, >    as did RSTS-11. >=203 > Either of these systems would have allowed online  > editing of sourcea3 > code, feeding into a version control system. Just. > because Barbarae+ > ran "the data entry shop" used by lots of  > departments, including4 > RSX, and she did not see such submissions, it does > not mean thatt > such work did not take place.u >=206 > Most of the work I did from 1975 to 1980 was related > to kernel 2 > add-ons to RSX-11M: Device drivers and real-time > applications3 > industrial data acquisition, factory control, ande > data communi-a3 > cations. I was very impressed with RSX-11M, and It
 > can confirm-0 > that the module headers in EVERY kernel module > listed D.C. as- > the original author, and about 25% of laterl > modifications in5 > the core modules also carried his initials. Barbarae
 > essentially-3 > claims that his name is there only because he wase
 > the manager 2 > for the group; I find that hard to believe. I am > more inclined 3 > to believe that he was an extremely gifted system,
 > programmer,-5 > and an obsessively detail oriented control freak. Ih
 > can believes6 > that he would not have been fun to work for, but the > work that 4 > came out of that group was of the highest quality. >=203 > I can also believe that he was a key influence on  > the design ofs4 > the VAX/VMS architecture, whcih was indeed a close > co-design of > hardware and software. >=206 > On the other hand, I have also observed VAX machines > running on5 > VMS and VAX machines running on 4.3BSD, and the BSDr
 > machines4 > delivered much better user performance on the same > iron horsepower.6 > I am willing to believe that TOPS-10 was essentially > as quick and5 > nimble as BSD. But this has to be tempered with the  > understanding,5 > that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code int	 > the RMSa5 > (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no  > equivalent inw4 > Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the
 > business- > data processing that was the reason for ther > existence of VAX/VMS.m >=204 > The PDP-11 market was fractured into about a dozen > differents2 > operating systems, which made it hard for DEC to > manage. Essentially,3 > there were several product lines for hardware andb > each operating=20d4 > system was its own product line. This was good for > customers,=20o5 > because there were separate product lines each witht > their own DEC=205 > sales teams *and* VARs competing for the customer's  > business, so6 > all of them were very responsive. But it was bad for > DEC, because- > the product lines would beat each other up.g > Management was deter-e4 > mined not to repeat that, so there was a religious > adherence to4 > VMS as the one true system for the VAX. Only after > 4.3BSD had6 > established a very strong foothold, did DEC create a > UNIX product4 > line: Originally called Ultrix, then Digital Unix, > and now Tru-64 > or some such.u >=20, > DEC fumbled both the personal computer and > workstation marketst/ > in inter-divisional squabbles. Just as Robin,e > Rainbow and PRO-116 > could each have spawned a viable PC prodict line, so	 > could ah0 > workstation business have been built on either > MicroVAX/Unixt4 > or a cost-reduced DEC-10 architecture (Mars-like). > It didn't.1 > happen, and it is riduculous for 32-bitters andb > 36-bitters to keep5 > shooting at each other while the current (or should  > I say recent)r1 > management is pissing away the 64-bit business.l > Which only goes * > to show that it was not an issue of evil > individualt, but of a 4 > dysfunctional senior corporate management culture. > --=20l/ > / Lars Poulsen - http://www.beagle-ears.com -e > lars@beagle-ears.com4 >   125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277s     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DdL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dn F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazild fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dg  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief information,7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:35:46 -0400D' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>6B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)( Message-ID: <9ntm49$bst$1@pyrite.mv.net>  6 "Lars Poulsen" <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote in message) news:3BA239AC.5F4F5219@beagle-ears.com...e   ...a  6 > I was very impressed with RSX-11M, and I can confirm? > that the module headers in EVERY kernel module listed D.C. asd> > the original author, and about 25% of later modifications inA > the core modules also carried his initials. Barbara essentiallye? > claims that his name is there only because he was the manageri- > for the group; I find that hard to believe.h  ( You should:  it has no basis in reality.    I am more inclinedc? > to believe that he was an extremely gifted system programmer, 3 > and an obsessively detail oriented control freak.    Correct.    I can believe@ > that he would not have been fun to work for, but the work that4 > came out of that group was of the highest quality. > A > I can also believe that he was a key influence on the design of A > the VAX/VMS architecture, whcih was indeed a close co-design of  > hardware and software.   Correct.   >eA > On the other hand, I have also observed VAX machines running ono> > VMS and VAX machines running on 4.3BSD, and the BSD machinesE > delivered much better user performance on the same iron horsepower.eC > I am willing to believe that TOPS-10 was essentially as quick anddC > nimble as BSD. But this has to be tempered with the understandingr= > that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code in the RMSsC > (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no equivalent ina= > Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the businesspC > data processing that was the reason for the existence of VAX/VMS.l  J There was a native version of RMS (RMS-20) which would have allowed a moreH head-to-head comparison, at least for applications that used it.  As hasL been discussed at length in comp.os.vms, the principal performance advantageH a typical Unix file system has over VMS comes from its different caching@ strategies - strategies which are appropriate for a large-memoryF environment, as contrasted with those on VMS which were designed for a7 tight-memory environment where avoiding the overhead ofe= application-to-kernel-cache copy activity was also important.i   ...   @ > DEC fumbled both the personal computer and workstation markets  > in inter-divisional squabbles.  F Maybe.  But major problems included the developing 'industry-standard'J perception of the IBM-PC (making anything other than a pure clone a harderI sell) and DEC's inability to manufacture competing products at comparable  prices.t  E As far as the PRO was concerned, I don't recall any 'inter-divisional I squabbles' with the Rainbow or the Robin (in fact, there may have been ateH least a small amount of synergy due to some shared hardware components).L But there *was* concern in the traditional PDP-11 product lines that the PROE might cannibalize their higher-priced offerings if it made a completetH RSX-11M-Plus environment too easily accessible - and the result may have% measurably contributed to its demise.0   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:11:17 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>7B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)* Message-ID: <3BA28084.73167456@virgin.net>   Lars Poulsen wrote:    > = > that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code in the RMS C > (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no equivalent ino= > Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the business1 >:  G Just a minor correction. TOPS-20 did support RMS but not as complete anRG implementation as in VMS. Don't recall if TOPS-10 ever had RMS support.    >n   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 03:44:11 GMT . From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)8 Message-ID: <3hj5qt0lf39d8accn86hm5tfl9ecsf5tul@4ax.com>  F >Having observed Barbara's participation on alt.folklore.computers andB >alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possibly later managing,4 >a group origianlly called tape duplication services  D Sounds like a cranky old lady nursing bitter memories over her eight
 scotch....: alt.flame is probably a better place for Barbara's obscure ruminations.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:59:07 -0500e+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109142356280.26009-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  ( On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Israel Raj T wrote:  H > >Having observed Barbara's participation on alt.folklore.computers andD > >alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possibly later managing,6 > >a group origianlly called tape duplication services > F > Sounds like a cranky old lady nursing bitter memories over her eight > scotch....< > alt.flame is probably a better place for Barbara's obscure > ruminations.  ; If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.  					--Thumper's Dad.:  ? Besides that, she has good stories.  Don't stifle them, please.:   -- :< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:33:11 GMT . From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)8 Message-ID: <6vp5qtscj23m0vnq8qvngcdqfumie6bvgv@4ax.com>  3 On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:59:07 -0500, Phil Mendelsohni <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:< >If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. >					--Thumper's Dad.@ >Besides that, she has good stories.  Don't stifle them, please.  * Perhaps, but comp.arch is the wrong group." Some dec or vms group might be ok.   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:25:25 GMT# From: rifepe@langran.iem.csic.espame$ Subject: Update licence in Deccampus' Message-ID: <9nti2l$eoa$1@tejo.csic.es>o  M We are afiliate to deccampus, and the documentation say that a Update licenseeA for the Operating System is included, but seems imposible to findl the PAK asociated with it.' Anyone knows how to get my hands on it.t Thank you very muchn   Ricardo    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:21:41 +0100d+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> ( Subject: Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date' Message-ID: <3BA274E5.23F64574@iee.org>e   Rick Nickles wrote:gF >         I'm wanting to see if there is anyone who knows what the EndF > of Life date for the VAX 7000's is going to be?  Do you know who the2 > people who make this decision within Compaq are?  ' If you mean "When will be the last date:+ I can order one?" the answer is in the pastz- (by quite a way). The COMPAQ website seems tol+ have lost the info (or it's too well hiddena( for my cursory search to find the info).  ( There are no more NVAX chips left - they+ were all built into the last set of moduless" AFAIK. Once the remaining CPUs and& related cards in the COMPAQ stockrooms( are gone, there will be no replacements.  ( I've already seen requests from at least% two sources stating that the Pentagon ! are looking for 70+ VAX 7800s, sow  that's COMPAQ's spares gone too." If the request is genuine (and one& had a COMPAQ contact address attached)& then I expect that End Of Service Life is just around the corner!   Antonioa   -- o   ---------------(- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgt   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:25:16 GMTd# From: mats@plea.se (Mats Magnusson)s, Subject: Re: VLC keyboard connector pinouts? Message-ID: <3ba3480d@plea.se>  B  NVU> Does anyone know the pinouts for a VLC's keyboard connector?  " I assume VLC = Vaxstation 4000 VLC  I It uses the same keyboards as VT2xx-VT5xx, VT1000, vaxstation 3100, other, vaxstation 4000's e.t.c.  C Look at vt100.net (or was it .org or maybe .com) there are a lot ofs information there.  "  NVU>  Also, is it TTA0: or TTA1:?  6 Not sure, but i think the other one is the mouse port.  I The keyboard port has +12V, ground and rx+tx, so it should be farily easyr  to find out the pinout yourself.  B I think the mouse port has the same signals, maybe an extra +5V or9 something like that when there are pins available anyway.e  J I think i know what you are up to, make a nullmodem for the keyboard ports- ? I have been playing with the idea myself :)!   -- A* M.V.H. Mats Magnusson http://plea.se/~mats   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:33:27 GMTt# From: mats@plea.se (Mats Magnusson)   Subject: Re: VSXXX-JA headphones Message-ID: <3ba349f4@plea.se>  L  snp> I believe that VSXXX-JA headsets were designed for use with VaxStationM  snp> 4000s. They have what looks like but is a bit smaller than a phone jack1F  snp> for plugging into the VS.  Are these things of any use without a/  snp> vaxstation? or adaptable  for other uses?   K Well, I have tried the handset from an Ericsson office phone, and it worked-C ok in an vaxstation 4000, so the headset for a vaxstation 4000 will 1 probably work fine with an Ericsson office phone.2  G Try locating any phone with a 4/4 modular connector for the handset andgK replace the handset wire with the wire from your headset. Don't blame me if  everything blows up!   --  * M.V.H. Mats Magnusson http://plea.se/~mats   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:49:01 GMT # From: mats@plea.se (Mats Magnusson)a5 Subject: Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use?A Message-ID: <3ba34d99@plea.se>  L  PCD> But (of course there is a but, nothing is free :-) ) this VAX has onlyJ  PCD> 16MB RAM, so I have not installed DECwindows, and the VT420 is a bitM  PCD> limiting. The console is not recognized as a terminal. It is also sooootM  PCD> slow compared to the Alphas. I did notice in our junk room, though, two-K  PCD> VAX 4000-50 and a R400X (raid?) which could be cannibalized for theiriK  PCD> RAM. I have not been able to open any of those cases because they are:  PCD> piled high with junk.e  L  PCD> My question is: can I use memory from the VAX 4000-50 in the 4000 VLC?  H Vax 4000-60 and 4000-90 use 80-pin simms that is also used in vaxstation 3100/M76 and decsystem 5100.  A 4000VLC use 72-pin simms. I'm not sure if the 4000vlc use special + 72-pin-simms or can use any standard simms.   I I also have an VXT2000 x-terminal, and I'm sure that either the VXT or mytE 4000VLC has some standard "pc" 72-pin-simms now, but I actually don'tt remember which one of them :(o  J Also, if the 4000-50 works and has atleast as much ram as the 4000VLC thenI you shoud probably go for the 4000-50. I don't remember how fast that onea5 is, the 4000-60 is around 12 VUP and 4000VLC 7-8 VUP.s  >  PCD> How much do I need to get decent DECwindows performance?  H 16MB shold be enpugh. I have free physical memory still available when IC have decwindows + netscape 3 running, if my memory serves me right.a   -- r* M.V.H. Mats Magnusson http://plea.se/~mats   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT)n. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd@ Message-ID: <20010914181248.27765.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  6 There are Muslins and Muslins, as there are Christians and Christians...f3 In my personal opinion the problem with the radicalf0 muslins will not be solved by Western countries.0 It must be solved by a a joined group of Muslins- countris which dont accept the "bandit Musline
 Countris".2 There are Muslin countris like Malasya, Indonesia,2 Saudia Arabia, Egypt, - non fanatic - which should5 join - even military - to defeat the "opressor Muslim + movement" in each country. I think you dontt understand.X  2 There are only these radicals, because the "normal4 people" dont have culture or conditions to have real3 informations about us "The westerns"... so they areu7 manipulated by the religious , politics and militars=20./ and terrorists..... the normal muslins in these 5 "bandit countries" dont know the truth. The truth fors" them is told by these mujahedeens.     Regardse   FC=20         + --- John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:  >=20 > Well stated Bill ! >=20. > I certainly don't endorse the methods of the > terrorists but I submit 6 > that they believe they held some justifiable reasons > to be upset aboutm > US policies and actions. >=205 > I also think that a purely military approach to them > problem is not a2 > useful long-term solution.  It may in fact cause > terrorists to become% > even more extreme in their methods.m >=202 > What is desperately needed is a review of why US > actions should engender 6 > this kind of anger and what steps the US should take > to reduce this.=200 > Compromises both large and small might be very > justified if they result > in a more peaceful world.  >=200 > The US is certainly not the only country whose > actions upset others but6 > mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to > change attitudes
 > everywhere.  >=20 >=20
 > John McLean  >=20 >  =20 >=20 > Bill Todd wrote: > >=202 > > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> > wrote in message > >o >sF news:rdeininger-1309012346340001@user-2ive6o7.dialup.mindspring.com...4 > > > In article <9nro9o$i7r$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill > Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h > > > wrote: > >=20 > > ...  > >=205 > > > I'm in a cranky mood, and probably sound hotter  > than I am.  I'm reacting2 > > > harshly to what appears to be something like > sympathy for the fiendse3 > > > behind Tuesday's attack.  I realize that manye > people don't intendt4 > > > sympathy, but they _appear_ to be offering it. > >=201 > > I think you need to pay more attention to theS > actual words than to youre0 > > instinctive reactions to what you seem to be > reading into them. > >=20 > >   Perhaps it's just an old3 > > > habit of bashing America, which is a favoriten > passtime for some.  Can'th. > > > folks see that it's a poor time for such
 > sentiments?s > >=203 > > When people presume to speak for Americans (you  > even suggested so explicitly5 > > in a portion I snipped above) and say things that  > I strongly disagree with,a5 > > it's *definitely* the appropriate time to expressc > that disagreement. > >=20 > > ...s > >=203 > > > Some folks seem to looking for nice things to  > say about some, > > > really rotten people around the world. > >=202 > > You really aren't paying attention to what the > people you're debating with  > > are saying.o > >=20- > > NO ONE has said anything 'nice' about the   > terrorists - unless you define5 > > saying that they had reasons for what they did asc > 'saying nice things'.  Doi6 > > you truly believe that they *didn't* feel they had > reasons, and that others& > > aren't upset for the same reasons? > >=20( > > > Some folks seem to think we should2 > > > back down, in subtle ways.  (Let's not build > tall buildings.  > >=206 > > That's a judgement call - very much like increased > airport security.  It'se4 > > only common sense to construct buildings so that > they will survivei6 > > anticipatable disasters.  I'd like to believe that > the world will reach a2 > > point where the kind of disaster that happened > Tuesday won't be one we have5 > > to worry about, but it's clearly not there at theo > moment - and how to get it0 > > there is very much what a lot of the current > discussion seems to be about.  > >=20 > > > Let's not.5 > > > hit the terrorists, because then they'll hit ust	 > again.)a > >=202 > > NO ONE has said anything about not hitting the > terrorists, they've just saidD5 > > to do it responsibly (and try to start addressing3 > some of the underlying0 > > causes) to avoid creating *more* terrorists. > >=20 > > > Some folks seem to3 > > > think we shouldn't take direct action against3 > bad guys, just because we  > > > aren't perfect ourselves._ > >=205 > > NO ONE has said, or implied, anything of the sort  > - at least not withy6 > > respect to those responsible for Tuesday's events. >  If you're seeking some-3 > > kind of blanket approval for going after anyone1 > else you might choose to6 > > consider a 'bad guy', dream on:  *that* requires a > lot more discussion. > >=20 > > ...) > >=205 > > > If I'm "beating my chest", it's only meant as aa > warning.  I don't expect8 > > > anyone to pay attention to ME beating my chest.=20 > I'm just surprised thatd6 > > > folks in some parts of the world act like we can > be pushed and poked andl" > > > we'll never really hit back. > >=200 > > And that's almost certainly exactly the same > attitude a lot of thosea* > > responsible for Tuesday's events held. > >=20 > > >n4 > > > > > It is also a mistake to think that Tuesday > was enough damage to deter1 > > > > > America in the slightest.  It the grande > scheme of things, it didn'te > > even2 > > > > > scratch our paint.  It just made us mad. > > > >i3 > > > > By all appearences, it made a lot of peoplee > stupid as well.  > > >e2 > > > I wish you wouldn't call people who disagree > with you stupid.  It's not > > polite.  > >=206 > > I'm often not all that tactful after the second or > third time people simply4 > > ignore the words they're responding to (at least > if I think the subject4 > > under discussion is at all important).  But I'll > try anyway this time.  > >=20 > > >a) > > > >   There are many things Americansn4 > > > > > might not understand about the rest of the > world, but this is
 > > somethingt5 > > > > > the world seems to forget about America.  A  > reminder is forthcoming. > > When6 > > > > > the bad guys fight back, we'll fight harder. >  We'll win.  We're > > bigger,s& > > > > > meaner, and more determined. > > > > 7 > > > > Why does such language remind me of Vietnam?=20n > It wasn't true then, and	 > > seemse5 > > > > even less likely to be true now.  And, shouldl > you have any doubt,v
 > > AmericansR2 > > > > like me will help ensure that, should this > country move in that > > direction, > > > > just as we did then. > > >a6 > > > I think I see what you meant, though a phrase or > two seems to have gotten	 > > lost.e > > >o0 > > > The present situation doesn't remind me of > Vietnam.  Any similarity of 6 > > > language is probably an accident.  It reminds me > of Pearl Harbor. > >=206 > > It's understandable that this reminds you of Pearl > Harbor (some poll says6 > > that 66% think it's more serious than Pearl Harbor > and another 25% thinko1 > > it's equally serious), but the resemblance isv > purely superficial.a > >=202 > > In 1941, an enemy attacked which if successful > (and there was a very real2 > > chance of that) could have eventually occupied > America militarily, and that4 > > enemy succeeded in destroying a major portion of > our own military ability toc6 > > prevent that from happening.  On Tuesday, an enemy > attacked which could4 > > never, by any stretch of the imagination, defeat > us militarily, let alone0 > > occupy us as a result, and destroyed perhaps  > 0.002% of our population and a) > > somewhat comparable percentage of ourz& > infrastructure.  I in no way mean to5 > > minimize what happened, but comparing it to Pearle > Harbor in anything save   > > shock value is preposterous. > >=20 > > > We4 > > > responded to that attack by attacking.  That's > what I forsee now. > >=204 > > We responded by attacking those who had attacked > us, and theirs1 > > formally-declared allies.  We did *not* start8 > attacking countries (such as2 > > some in South America) who were sympathetic to > them.l > >=20 > > > We3 > > > didn't attack randomly then, and we shouldn't  > now.  We should fight to" > > > win, and then stop fighting. > >=205 > > Somehow 'not attacking randomly' doesn't reassured > me that you're reallyo3 > > saying you're advocating limiting the immediate  > (and IMO justifiable)o0 > > reaction to those with direct involvement in > Tuesday's events.  If I'm . > > interpreting you incorrectly, I apologize. > >=20 > > >c4 > > > >   You might prefer a world where people like2 > > > > > bin Laden could come out on top.  If so,
 > tough luck.u > > > >>6 > > > > Nope:  we just want a world where there aren't > enough people who feel,s > > with- > > > > at least some basis, that they have a,# > desperate score to settle with usl > > to6 > > > > fuel the activities of someone like bin Laden. > > >e7 > > > Do you ever consider that they might be WRONG?=20t > (Yes, I suspect you do.) > >=202 > > It is possible both to feel that what happened > Tuesday was WRONG and to feel 3 > > that we ourselves bear some indirect portion of: > responsibility for it.  If4 > > you have trouble understanding that, think about > it as the same kind of4 > > shared responsibility that other militant groups > not directly involved (but4 > > whom some seem to feel should be included in our > response) may have had ini5 > > creating a climate that encouraged such activity.p > >=206 > > > If America has any blame for Tuesday, I think it > is that we tolerated/ > > > lesser attacks without a strong response.  > > >m4 > > > What to do about all the other folks who don't > like us is a separaten5 > > > question, I think.  They don't have to like us,	 > and perhaps we shouldi4 > > > change some of our policies.  But they mustn't > attack us.  Is that in the+ > > > general vicinity of your own opinion?, > >=204 > > No, it's not.  But I'll explain how it could be. > >=205 > > When *we* don't like someone's policies, we don't1 > do anything of the kind:6 > > we use the major forces at our disposal (economic, > multi-national, sometimese4 > > military) to try to change them - even though in > most cases their policiesp2 > > have little or no real impact on our country's > operation.  In other words, 5 > > we're absolutely impossible to ignore - even when- > we're not actively trying,4 > > to affect someone, but just do so anyway because > we're huge and most of themr3 > > are tiny and we don't even notice when they get-
 > stepped on.- > >=206 > > Most of the people who *really* don't like us live > in small, weak countries:U/ > > no economic power, not much in the way of ao" > military, no powerful friends to3 > > intercede for them (especially since the end oft > the Cold War eliminated they3 > > competition for their support).  Or, in the fewA > cases where the countriesk- > > have major assets (typically oil, in thisy > context), they're run by2 > > governments those people hate about as much as > they hate us for supportingc- > > them, or by governments that hate us too.7 > >=205 > > Given that these people have nothing we want, ande > that we don't seem to 5 > > think we need to pay attention to people who havew > nothing we want, how can6 > > they get our attention when they want us to change > something?  The U.N. was5 > > once at least an option, but since the end of the  > Cold War we seem moree4 > > willing just to walk away from it when it starts > saying things that we don'ta > > want to hear.r > >=203 > > So saying "They don't have to like us" sounds ao > lot like Marie Antoinette'si6 > > possibly apocryphal "Let them eat cake":  *we* can > easily get away with not4 > > liking *them* without much of a problem, but the > reverse is just not true.p > >=204 > > If the only means they have to get our attention > when they feel screwed as a 6 > > result of our actions is to attack us, that's what > they'll do - even if wee8 > > tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".=20 > And the only way tot6 > > prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of > them (that's called mass4 > > genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, > but it's hard to4 > > differentiate it from what some people here seem > to be advocating) or tog) > > give them some other way to obtain ano > (*effective*) audience.a > >=201 > > Put such a mechanism in place, and then I canV > agree with your statement 2 > > above.  It still smacks a bit more of noblesse > oblige than I'm comfortable06 > > with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of > the hill for at least at2 > > while the best we can do is reign as justly as > possible (unless you'd preferA4 > > to hand the reins over to the U.N., which is the > only other obvious1 > > responsible course of action I can think of).h > >=20 > > >e$ > > > > And your approach seems very, > > > > unlikely to be the way to get there. > > >e. > > > Well, I haven't specified any particular" > approach, except to not tolerate > > > those who attack us. > > > # > > > What approach to you suggest?  > >=20 > > I just did above.e > >=20 > > > 0 > > > > > Please excuse my excited tone, if I've > misunderstood your meaning.- > > I'm   > > > > > low on patience today. > > > >p4 > > > > You indeed misunderstood Paul's meaning, and > in a manner that merited > > the 5 > > > > response I gave it.  Hope you're more patientf > tomorrow:  if what you
 > > really, > > > > want is punishment of those directly# > responsible for Tuesday's events,g5 > > > > there's no fundamental point of disagreement,s > and room for rationalb5 > > > > discussion of what *other* reactions would bef > appropriate. > > >p2 > > > If by "other", you mean "in addition" then I > agree with you.  If you mean! > > > "instead of", then I don't.E > >=203 > > I meant 'in addition'':  I don't believe anyoneo > would disagree that one way 4 > > or another there's a great deal more work to do. > >=20
 > > - bill > >=20 > > >t > > > -- > > > Robert Deininger > > > rdeininger@mindspring.com      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D-L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Ds F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazila fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3DM  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?g) Donate cash, emergency relief informationD7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/o   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Sep 2001 13:56:37 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o Subject: Re: World Trade Centerc3 Message-ID: <eP8FJYqe0EYv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <c184qtg5l1hgklushv6ivkogcjotpdq6ht@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:F > On 14 Sep 2001 10:02:25 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >  > Q >>"We are looking at those terrorist organizations that have the kind of capacityaQ >>that would have been necessary to conduct the attack that we saw," Powell said.eE >>"We haven't yet publicly identified the organization we believe wasbO >>responsible. But when you look at the list of candidates, one resides in thatsI >>region." When asked by a reporter, Powell confirmed he meant bin Laden.  > F > Yes, that was the exchange I saw but at no point did the reporter orF > Powell actually say "Bin Laden" as I recall. At a later conference aC > Whitehouse spokesman specifically pointed this out when told thatm; > Powell had confirmed Bin Laden by name as chief suspect. n  ! http://www.usatoday.com/hlead.htm   ! 09/14/2001 - Updated 02:22 PM ET p  .2 Senate approves using force, $40B in emergency aid  M WASHINGTON - Acting decisively and unanimously, the Senate on Friday approvedmO $40 billion in emergency aid to help the victims and hunt down the perpetratorse= of this week's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. r  rL The 96-0 Senate vote came just hours before President Bush, accompanied by aI contingent of New York lawmakers, is to visit the site of the World Tradee Center catastrophe.     s  M Secretary of State Colin Powell became the first Bush administration officialnI to confirm that Osama bin Laden, the fugitive financier of radical Muslimh2 terrorism, is suspected of sponsoring the attacks.   				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:05:05 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri( Message-ID: <9ntkaj$a2h$1@pyrite.mv.net>  - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagee) news:00256AC7.005A00D6.00@quegw01.btyp... H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazau >  > K > Would you like to see the same policy that is active in the UK, where the H > government has assumed a stance of appeasement to terrorism in Ireland [untilK > this situation occurred and now Blair is giving us the spiel about facing  downL > terrorism] whereby hundreds of terrorists have been released carte blanche fromI > prisons [on both sides] and where one side has done nothing to meet its  side of K > the bargain, and in fact gives us a nudge with a bomb every now and again  to tryJ > and extract something more for itself, which now we've started down that path( > can only end up with a united Ireland? > K > If America took the same path as we have, then you would end up with [eg]  bino. > Laden holding a position in your government. >eJ > If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then thehG > underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is not more. Is > that want you want?   K If you can still ask such questions after reading the post you quoted below0G (let alone many others in this thread), you're an idiot.  If you didn'tnL bother to read the post before responding to it, you're an idiot.  In eitherJ case, I don't really see the point in trying to carry on a discussion with you.  F Should you wish to try again with something sensible, I'll reconsider.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:37:48 GMTg& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf> Message-ID: <g0to7.151103$aZ.23599272@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  @ I agree with part of your assertion.  A strictly air war will beI inconclusive without followup ground action.  That ground action does notlG have to mean mega-deaths (for us), but we need to be prepared for that.   K However, I disagree with the comparison to Kosovo.  There was some militaryiK commander on television yesterday saying the difference would be in whethereJ we actually consider it a "state of war" or not.  In Kosov, he was saying,L they had lawyers picking the targets and refusing permission to hit specificD targets,  similar to the way targets were picked in Vietnam.  If theK military is allowed to direct the war,  the outcome may have no resemblancem> to Kosovo or Vietnam.  However, there are still no guarantees.  = "andrew harrison" <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote in messagee$ news:3BA1E285.65812F6C@uk.sun.com... >y > Rob Young wrote: >n > > >tE > > > If lessons are not learnt and attitudes do not change, then theOA > > > thousands of deaths on Tuesday could be completely in vain.e > > >  > >iK > >         The attitudes will change and it will cost us a lot of money to F > >         change them.  But weapons aren't cheap these days.  And as	 President K > >         Bush reminds us, it may take months or years.  One other thing,kI > >         American war planners learned a big lesson in Vietnam and ared wellE > >         aware of quagmire situations.  I anticipate 4-6 months ofpK > >         cruise missiles, smart bombs and B-52s prior to the mopping up.  > >w > H > No that will not work. In the Kosovo campaign Colin Powell said "we do	 > desertsaJ > we don't do mountains", in the high level bombing campaign that followed > moreJ > smart weapons were used in the the  than have ever been used before. The > net I > effect however was a relatively low level of damage to the Serbian armys > anda > Militia units. > G > If Bin Ladin is really the culprit and if the Taliban do not hand himi > overI > voluntarely then the US and its alies will have to deploy ground troopsy< > and we will have to accept that there will be casualities. >s	 > regardse > Andrew Harrison  > Enterprise IT Architectn >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:28:30 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s Subject: Re: World Trade Centerp* Message-ID: <3BA2848D.AF666F2D@virgin.net>   Rob Young wrote:  P > ISecretary of State Colin Powell became the first Bush administration officialK > to confirm that Osama bin Laden, the fugitive financier of radical Muslimg4 > terrorism, is suspected of sponsoring the attacks. >d  ] Yep I keep seeing these reports too but it wasn't in yesterday's conference at around 1pm EDT 
 yesterday.  b My memory is that he explicitly avoided naming Bin Laden despite reporters attempts to make him do` so. If he said "we suspect the prime suspect is Bin Laden" where is the tv soundbyte replay? Butb again he may have said so in a later conference I did not see. I can only speak for the one I did.  ] He also was asked about Iraq and replied along the lines of "Saddam is the world's number onesF terrorist". The press preferred to run with the Bin Laden implication.   > % >                                 Rob    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:36:43 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenterdL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1409011936440001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <9nsak3$9ps$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:     <much snipped>  N > If the only means they have to get our attention when they feel screwed as aL > result of our actions is to attack us, that's what they'll do - even if weH > tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".  And the only way toM > prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of them (that's called massrC > genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, but it's hard to J > differentiate it from what some people here seem to be advocating) or to? > give them some other way to obtain an (*effective*) audience.n > I > Put such a mechanism in place, and then I can agree with your statement 
 > above.    ? Fine. But your "such a mechanism" is too vague to comment upon.   J I also wonder what they would consider an effective audience.  In what wayJ have they shown a willingness to compromise?  If they won't, then the onlyD "effective" mechanism would be for us to accept their point of view.  D > It still smacks a bit more of noblesse oblige than I'm comfortableL > with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of the hill for at least a > while   ! Do you consider this a bad thing?   H > the best we can do is reign as justly as possible (unless you'd preferE > to hand the reins over to the U.N., which is the only other obviousb/ > responsible course of action I can think of).s  I No, I don't prefer the U.N., thank you.  They have at least as many goofy,) ideas per year as the U.S., usually more.i  " > > > And your approach seems very* > > > unlikely to be the way to get there. > >rM > > Well, I haven't specified any particular approach, except to not toleratey > > those who attack us. > > ! > > What approach to you suggest?  >  > I just did above.t   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:19:21 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s Subject: Re: World Trade Center ' Message-ID: <3BA2BAA9.97534849@fsi.net>e   john nixon wrote:n > B > I agree with part of your assertion.  A strictly air war will beK > inconclusive without followup ground action.  That ground action does notaI > have to mean mega-deaths (for us), but we need to be prepared for that.t  G My sister is active tracing our geneaology. She forwarded a post from anC person in Poland who is active on one of the related message boardsiE stating that even in Poland, the candle-light vigil is being embracedo enthusiastically.r  C The last time we faced mega-losses in a ground assault, we found anmG alternative. I was just asking my wife and daughter how long that leveleH of support for the U.S. would continue around the world if the "bad man") were to someday soon meet "little boy"...g   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:48:35 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centero( Message-ID: <9nuffh$2u3$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagehF news:rdeininger-1409011936440001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com...L > In article <9nsak3$9ps$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> > wrote: >l >  > <much snipped> > K > > If the only means they have to get our attention when they feel screwed  as aK > > result of our actions is to attack us, that's what they'll do - even ifN weJ > > tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".  And the only way toJ > > prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of them (that's called massE > > genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, but it's hard to L > > differentiate it from what some people here seem to be advocating) or toA > > give them some other way to obtain an (*effective*) audience.o > >dK > > Put such a mechanism in place, and then I can agree with your statement 
 > > above. >eA > Fine. But your "such a mechanism" is too vague to comment upon.m > L > I also wonder what they would consider an effective audience.  In what wayL > have they shown a willingness to compromise?  If they won't, then the onlyF > "effective" mechanism would be for us to accept their point of view.  J By 'effective' I meant a mechanism through which we could clearly hear andG would seriously consider their points of view, and would offer detailed D explanation of any points on which we differed so that they could be addressed specifically.o  K In other words, the guarantee of an on-going dialogue that would be carriedhI on in good faith and with the actual commitment to *trying* to reach somerJ level of agreement and at least better mutual understanding - both betweenJ governments, and between peoples (since governments don't always represent the latter).   >nF > > It still smacks a bit more of noblesse oblige than I'm comfortableL > > with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of the hill for at least ao	 > > whilee >o# > Do you consider this a bad thing?a  G If we don't handle the role responsibly, I consider it to be a very badiL thing indeed.  If we can learn to handle the role responsibly, it may be the& best solution available at the moment.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:59:05 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>t Subject: Re: World Trade Centere/ Message-ID: <3BA2C2A6.DA27758F@cableinet.co.uk>t   Bill Todd wrote:  A > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagehH > news:rdeininger-1409011936440001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com... >n% > > Do you consider this a bad thing?o >vI > If we don't handle the role responsibly, I consider it to be a very badsN > thing indeed.  If we can learn to handle the role responsibly, it may be the( > best solution available at the moment. >   O Bill, I really like the role you are playing here, sure, there needs to be some L retribution but the USA really needs to start showing that it is growing up,M and put some things on the table to show it means buisiness in world affairs.   < I actually hope Bush is smarter than he seems. For everyone.   regardsr   >, > - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:59:21 GMTg3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerk/ Message-ID: <3BA2C2B4.28438629@cableinet.co.uk>   ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:h   >s >"N > If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then theP > underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is no more. Is > that want you want?o  K Why not at least consider it? What were the REAL reasons for setting up thetN state of Israel anyway. Did the Romany's etc get a homeland after WWII? Was it- the USA's biggest mistake in the Middle East?    >V= > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/14/2001 04:08:07 AMi >o" > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- > cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)sL > From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 14 September 2001, 4:08 a.m.  A > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagehF news:rdeininger-1309012242050001@user-2ive7ie.dialup.mindspring.com...  M >  The main difference between what happened Tuesday and what have been dailycI > occurrences off and on for decades in many parts of the world (NortherneM > Ireland, Israel and the occupied territories, Chechnya and Moscow, parts of J > Africa that I'm not familiar with in any detail, and likely other placesM > that I can't think of at the moment or never even heard about) is locality:nG > we're not used to terrorism on American soil, and seem to think we'retK > entitled to some kind of exemption from it rather than understanding that N > we're simply geographically separated from those who might wish us harm to aF > degree that makes us a more difficult target.  The flip side of thatH > situation, however, is that if someone decides to go to the trouble ofG > hitting us, they're more likely to try to make that hit really count.   K I agree with your point Bill, but surely the country that exports glorified J street violence and gun culture mayhem to the rest of the world has to tryG and gather a bit more perspective on the issues involved here. How manynI Americans die in street crime in a year for example? How many cracked outrM gandlanders with terminal HIV or a hitman on their tail might wanna fly a jet D into the White House just as much as some loony arab? Especially now  someone has given them the idea?  K The thing that really shocks me is how apparently lax internal air securityaP was over there. I saw a senior recently retired BA captain interviewed on News24I who said he saw now logic in the decision the refuse non US carriers into3Q US airspace yesterday as everyone in the trade knew that the US internal securitya was the weak link.  P Last time I left Heathrow my girlfriend had a cooking knife in her hand luggage.T The routine security revealed it. It was deposited with security and returned at the  P end of the journey. On the return journey she again forgot to pack it in checked luggagecQ (I know, but it was a good holiday:-)) and was forced to bin it (shame, expensivel. knife, but thats the Spanish approach for ya).  S  On internal UK flights  everything gets screened, international in Europe has been 	 tight forrN as long as I remember,  and I was in serious euro-commuting mode during Desert Storm.P Lack of internal flight security diplays to the outsider a certain arrogance and ignorance ofS the real feelings that many people in the world feel against "the west" and the USAB in particular,M and of what is going on in the terrorism hot-spots, exemplified by  the  firmp responsible forfM security on the flights out of Logan having a large number of convictions fori security violationsrQ in the last few years.. Palestinians have been suicide bombing in Israel for someu
 time, I thinkeI I remember ETA incidents also. Are the CIA too busy ruining poor farmers'n livelihoodshS in the third world in the name of the war the USA has been fighting longer than any  other.K to actually do some decent risk analysis and mandate and implement securitye	 protocolsdN appropriate to deal with worst case terrorist scenarios? Were the incidents in	 Africa iniT 1998 dissmissed with a "can't happen here", in particular who those that should (and get paid to)/ know better. Seems that way, like you say Bill.r       >u >  > >p2 > > I'm just confused by your choice of euphemism. >i > It wasn't a euphemism. >e >   Your language is usuallyJ > > rather precise.  If you think of Tuesday as an "avenue of expression",@ > > then you can likely describe _anything_ with the same words. >cJ > You just about can - and we often do.  How many times have people talkedL > about 'sending a message' to people like Saddam or Milosevic by means that > differ markedly from words?v >m >   It justR5 > > seems to me a misplaced phrase in this situation.e >.K > That's the problem with such messages:  the recipients (and others in the6J > world) often don't take them in the way they were intended.  Exactly theN > same problem exists with the kind of 'message' several people here have been > advocating sending in return.  >o  A you guys could be discussing gang warfare or child physcology :-)    >l > >h> > > > > And yes, I'm complaining about Tuesday's perpetrators. > > > M > > > Then I hope you're more interested than Rob is in finding other ways toa' > > > approach the underlying problems.  > > F > > There are various underlying problems.  Can we find better ways toK > > interact with the rest of the world?  Without doubt.  Should we pretend M > > that there are not good and bad forces in the world, and just let the bade. > > ones do as they please?  I don't think so.  L yet, there are many ostriches out there, and in some cases it sure suits theI interests of the USA and others including the UK for it to stay that way.f     >  >tL > You and others keep saying things like your last two sentences above as ifN > someone, somewhere had been advocating such a course.  Could you please find7 > a single such example to quote before doing it again?  >o > >lD > > But whoever planned and supported Tuesday has no right to expectM > > discussion or any say in international affairs.  The "underlying problem" F > > of the moment is to smash them, and hopefully as few bystanders as
 > > possible.u >yH > No, that's not the underlying problem at all:  it's just the immediateK > objective.  And we need to do considerably more than 'hope' that we don'tmL > smash bystanders:  we need to make every *reasonable* effort (and possiblyF > just a bit more, to make sure other reasonable people perceive it as > reasonable) not to do so.i  J Hmmm, just what is the live use hit rate for those "smart weapons" anyway.> Not like 99.999 percent or anything really reliable like that.  O Yup, dead civilians could well get the USA nowhere but more internal terrorism, P and killing the wrong guys or going after all terrorists gung ho style as a beebR clip I saw painted as a scenario  could be interesting. Hey, how many yanks fundedS the IRA anyway. An interesting issue is the involvment of Russia as a NATO partner.c   >  >g > > J > > I suspect we agree on many points.  But I'm not willing to discuss andL > > seek some perfect solution to the world's problems, until more important > > matters are taken care of. >gH > Exactly why is that?  Do you feel you have more important things to doN > during the interval necessary to identify the culprits and move to deal withF > them?  Or are you just afraid that if people think about such thingsG > *before* action can be taken, they might start to incline more toward L > justice - harsh and military though it may be - than toward blind revenge?  H I have been impressed actually by the public output from the the US govtM I've seen in the UK in this respect, and the longer they hold off the better,h really.k   >  > 1 >  > I think killing these bastards is important.iJ > > They will keep destroying innocents as long as they draw breath.  TheyI > > might have had some valid complaints on Monday.  They don't any more.t  C Hmm, you wanna know why the Congo is in such a bad mess these days?mF Palestine? Most of South America? Now, that Mobutu, he really knew howP to fuck the west, just kept taking their money and stuffing it in his Swiss bankN accounts :-) Others too, of course. A basic understading of the phrase "doubleL standards" might be a suitable way to increase your understanding and extendS your perspective. Just keep breathing, deeply... Also consider the red meat contentr
 of your diet.    >t >UF > The validity of the complaints hasn't changed, just the right of theN > perpetrators to be heard.  But there are plenty of other people left to talk > with.e >  > >tK > > I'm not lumping everyone with a grudge against the U.S. together.  Just . > > the ones who act against us with violence. >jK > Let's focus just on those responsible for Tuesday's events to start with,oM > since there seems to be very little controversy about what should happen tonD > them.  As soon as you move beyond that, further discussion becomesK > necessary:  I can certainly imagine supporting an international effort tokH > address terrorism world-wide, but only as long as that effort includedC > significant efforts to deal with the causes of terrorism as well.p  M yep, and thats where recognition of the need reevaluate the tactics currentlyfL in use to starve such people of their income really looks to me like a majorK issue that will require many ostriches to become enlightened and might evenIL sort out the internal problems caused by criminializing and often physicallyM endangering a large portion of society and in the process feeding cash to ther real bad guys.  A Also, Islam is all over the world, and the Palestinians have some H justification in their feelings of violation in having their land taken.  N I have no sympathy with any use of violence for any purpose except strict selfO defence after all other avenues have been explored, in case you were wondering.e  F best regards, and depest sympathies to any suffereing in the aftermath  " Tim Llewellyn, posting without sig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:09:08 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>u Subject: Re: World Trade Center ( Message-ID: <9nuk6i$5l4$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message) news:3BA2C2B4.28438629@cableinet.co.uk...  >t > # > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:g >r > >s > >tL > > If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then the I > > underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is noe more. Is > > that want you want?a >c > Why not at least consider it?g  L The main reason is that once you start trying to undo history (especially inK a region with several thousand years of it well recorded) there's no end tov the process.  K Eliminating Israel is at one extreme of the range of possible solutions andhL hence likely not the best one in any event - aside from the fact that IsraelJ must be a central participant in any solution and clearly cannot entertainL this one.  Better to look at the solution range that both sides have alreadyB showed themselves willing to discuss:  verbal rather than physicalI engagement between Israel and the Palestinians, effective means of endingrK oppression in the occupied territories and eventually ending the occupationn itself, land for peace, etc.  I My personal belief is that Israel made a major error in backing away from K Rabin's approach to the peace process after his assassination, and that the I U.S. made a major error in continuing to support them in the face of thisnL policy change.  But I don't believe that means they've forfeited their rightH to exist as a nation, even if half a century ago mistakes were made whenK that nation was created.  And their neighbors have shown recent willingness D to accept their existence as long as it does not result in continuedL occupation of other territory (which leaves the major shared religious sitesL as the main remaining bone of contention, and if the rest can be solved thenC some compromise solution there seems very likely to be achievable).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:46:11 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: Re: WTC and High Availabiltyo, Message-ID: <3BA2CEF8.34F67885@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:. > Should be interesting to account, at the end, > of this tragedy, how the High Availability1 > Systems (OpenVMS, Solaris, etc..) helped in the-- > restart of the companies which were in WTC.n  N So far, on TV, all I have heard about was "we were able to restore our systems- from backups we do each night" type of stuff.e  H Consider that trading at the exchanges was halted/not started, so even aK company with a disaster tolerant machine that could have stayed up wouldn'tnL really have had any advantage since that advantage was useless as long as as everything was shutdown.  I Also, since trading had not begun, it is likely that the backups from theWN previous nights still provided the most "up to date" image of the corporation.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.513 ************************