1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 15 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 514       Contents: Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Format SCSI disk on AS200 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit  I am Adam H. Kerman your master # Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master " ISO Image of Freeware 4 or 5 CD's?, java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUS0 Re: java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUS0 Re: java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUS Re: memory channel# Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ? + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK  OT: WTC Uncle Sam  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)  Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:35:35 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques ' Message-ID: <3BA320E6.6CAE24BB@home.nl>    Very bad thought. f The problem is not Islam, but fundamentalist Islam. Just as fundamentalist Christianity has caused theg death of millions and destruction of cultures, any kind of fundamentalist religion views causes nothing f but trouble. Look at that idiot of a Jerry Fallwell claiming that feminists, homosexuals, or any othere group that doesn't fit into his narrow minded view caused God to be so angry that he let this happen. j These ideas or not so very far from what mr. Bin Laden is preaching. The problem with these people is thati they think they can be a kind of God by proxy. Since God or Allah doesn't speak to us directly, they feel g obliged to take over that job and call for the destruction of everything that doesn't comply with their  view of what is right or not.   ] And please be very aware that the memory of the crusaders is still used as an excuse by Islam g fundamentalists. Bombing mosques doesn't seem very helpfull and will only angry more moderate groups in  Islam.  i However an Israeli official did make an interesting suggestion. The people that do these suicide missions d think they will go to paradise when they are dead. He suggested to cover the bodies of these suicideg bombers in pigs blood. This way they will be unclean, and can not enter paradise. Sounds a bit strange, i but this way their fundamentalist believes are used as a weapon against themselves. And if it works .....      "Eusphoros@yahoo.com" wrote:  G > Osama claims he is fighting against the U.S. in part because he wants D > to protect the sanctity of Islamic Holy sites and because the U.S.F > supports Israel who is defiling Islamic Holy sites.  Because of this+ > he is a hero to many, much like Mohammed.  > G > I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day for 40 days H > until Osama and his followers surrender.  If he is truly religious andG > willing to die to protect the holy sites of Islam, he will surrender. F > If not, he will be vilified by his own people.  We could make a list? > of the 40 most holy sites and bomb them in ascending order of H > holiness.  The people would know many days in advance which were to beG > bombed and when.  Prior to the bombing we make it clear that if Osama G > does not surrender in 40 days we will come in and get him anyway.  We F > see from history that during the Jewish Wars, Rome eventually had to1 > deal with radical Jewish sects in the same way.  > A > Muslims worship together in their mosques the militant with the F > sublime.  The militant may be getting financial support in part fromF > the tithes of the sublime.  We must make the statement that the onlyD > way to protect these sites, is for the militant to surrender.  TheE > fact is that they will continue fighting until Kingdom come, unless G > fighting results in the desecration of their holy sites.  Whatever we G > do we must not make him a martyr.  It would be better to show his own G > people that he is not a Holy man and cares nothing for the holy sites E > of Islam so that his own people would be willing to die to take him H > out.  This would be much more effective then sanctions or embargoes or# > targeting military installations.  > H > Unfortunately, Americans don't have the stomach to take action in thisG > way.  Although I have heard the President and the Congress state that H > they would use whatever means necessary to bring these men to justice.F > I seriously doubt that they would ever consider bombing the Mosques. >  > Just a thought,  >  > Eusphoros  > h > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<N9zKzrbRHCds@eisner.encompasserve.org>...V > > In article <9nsao3$9q0$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > > >  > > > P > > > No, it will be entirely different.  By and large, there will be nothing toL > > > target, unless you go for genocide:  these aren't states and organizedP > > > military that we'll be attacking, but guerillas - just as in Vietnam.  AndP > > > the tactics you describe above are precisely those that failed in Vietnam. > > > R > > > Occupying territory is worthless:  these people don't own any, and just moveJ > > > elsewhere.  And the people who'll actually wind up fighting for thatR > > > territory are those who live there, not those you went in to defeat - who'llP > > > be off elsewhere figuring out how to retaliate on *our* soil, and God helpO > > > us when they finally get hold of some weapon of mass destruction, which I Q > > > find it impossible to believe won't be provided to them by people as aghast O > > > at that kind of behavior as I am and in a better position to do something  > > > about it.  > > > O > > > The 'use a bigger hammer' approach isn't very effective if you can't find K > > > the nail.  We won't be able to, but they will.  Give them the kind of Q > > > provocation you're talking about, and expect to start losing cities without J > > > knowing whom to blame:  they'll stop going for drama, as they did on4 > > > Tuesday, and start going for real body counts. > > >  > > G > >       Of course the difference is you have to keep them pinned down @ > >       for 6-12+ months, hammer all trade routes to and from. > > N > >       In the course of the "Vietnam campaign" , we *apparently* came closeK > >       to a complete surrender of the North.  What happened was Congress L > >       decided that bombing through Christmas 1968 was "immoral", bombingB > >       was halted, the North recovered and the rest is history. > > I > >       In Afghanistan, the Russians did/didn't have near the number of N > >       stand off weapons (cruise, guided bombs, carpet bombs) and "treated"P > >       it to a conventional approach, sending in tanks, troops and helicopterO > >       gunships.  When/if an action occurs irregardless of who it is, expect M > >       many months of stand off launches and A10 and Apache harrassment of $ > >       pack mule resupplies, etc. > > O > >       You call it genocide?  What wonderful language.  Classic FondaVision.  > >       How about war? > > % > >                               Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:20:35 GMT . From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques 8 Message-ID: <h4h6qt0q7a0cgagojomd3ed7eef6fcq8f2@4ax.com>  2 On 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700, eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote:  F >I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day for 40 days+ >until Osama and his followers surrender.     # 1. This is off topic in comp.os.vms   D 2. The Oklahama bombing ( until now the worst terrorist attack on US@ soil ) was done by a Christian. Your logic would suggest that we  should have bombed the Churches.  A 3. Attacking  innocents just radicalises moderates, creating more ! potential martyrs and terrorists.   / 3. Attacking  innocents strengthens terrorists.   F Osama's star was waning until the U.S incursions ( admittedly at SaudiC Arabia's request ) into Mecca. The anger this caused enabled him to C bring together a conference in Pakistan of " six hundred scholars " D from other terrorist organisations to form the International Islamic5 Front for the Jihad against Crusaders (sic) and Jews.   0 Bomb one single Mosque and you strengthen Osama.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:10:30 GMT * From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques + Message-ID: <3BA38A77.B7A226C3@prodigy.net>    Dirk Munk wrote: >  <snip> > k > However an Israeli official did make an interesting suggestion. The people that do these suicide missions f > think they will go to paradise when they are dead. He suggested to cover the bodies of these suicidei > bombers in pigs blood. This way they will be unclean, and can not enter paradise. Sounds a bit strange, k > but this way their fundamentalist believes are used as a weapon against themselves. And if it works .....  <snip>   Have they tried that in Israel?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:19:27 +0100  From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> & Subject: Re: Format SCSI disk on AS200) Message-ID: <3BA30F10.5C52A74A@Omond.net>    Michael Moroney wrote:  ) > Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:  > N > >I have a SCSI disk that I need to low-level format on a AS200 4/233 running > >VMS 7.3.  Can this be done? > K > Do you really mean low-level format or "format" in the PC sense?  That is  > just equivalent to $ INIT. > G > If you really mean low level format (usually not done on a SCSI disk) H > I guess you could whip up a small program that does IO$_FORMAT QIOs to > the disk.   % I already responded to Dan by e-mail.   - Whipping up a small program is not necessary.   " Look at Sys$Etc:RZTools_Alpha.Exe.  + E.g. you want to low-level format DKA300: ?    $ rzt:=$Sys$etc:RZTools_Alpha  $ rzt dka300:/format  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:15:18 +0200 3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)- Message-ID: <3BA31C26.D5E1F55A@hda.hydro.com>    Phil Mendelsohn wrote: > ( > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Alan Greig wrote: > J > > Showstopper covers Cutler warts and all but the impression given is heI > > only gets away with his behaviour - first at DEC then at MS - because A > > he is such a brilliant coder.  I'm only quoting what it says.  > I > That's one of the principal reasons I am badgering Mme. jmfbah, because I > among a few alpha-male greybeards I know, Cutler is the only guy I have D > ever heard mentioned with anything approaching hero-worship.  Such4 > polarized opinions bears closer scrutiny, I think.   Right.  C I've only met one programmer that seems worthy of hero-worship, and  that's John Carmack.  H I consider myself reasonably competent, but JC is in a totally differentE league, mostly due to his ability to do deep thinking about something " like 8 different problems at once.  B > Another story is that if he finds code in a printer before it isK > retrieved, the owner is/was likely to find it graded when they get there.   C What's wrong with that? I've never been able to read source without 9 reacting to any redundancy or inefficency I notice there.    Terje    --    - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>; Using self-discipline, see http://www.eiffel.com/discipline @ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:47:07 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nvav9$n71$4@bob.news.rcn.net>   0 In article <oq3d5pg0tc.fsf@premise.demon.co.uk>,6    peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) wrote: ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes: > 7 >    jmfbahciv> I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.  > G >VMS engineering had an incredible "phallic" cult of the coder, which I  >think came from Cutler.    > I don't know if it started with him, but NIH was definitely an9 art form in neck of the biz.  Like I've mentioned, he was 7 in the management track so the nuts and bolts of the OS < wasn't really within his control.  The VMS montior group had7 membership of 200 people.  No one person could oversee  9 that complete set of bits a group like that could output.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:49:23 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nvb3h$n71$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   + In article <9nuqge$mi4$1@sword.avalon.net>, ;    dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert) wrote: / >"Martin Nisshagen" <martin_xp@msn.com> writes:  > ' >><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message  % news:9nneua$gf4$2@bob.news.rcn.net...  > C >>: I'll say this one more time.  Cutler wasn't a writer; he wasn't 1 >>: a programmer; he was a manager that couldn't.  > F >>Regardless how many times you repeat things for yourself it's quite  obvious that? >>someone at AOL hasn't the slightest clue what he talks about.  >  > F >I don't know anything about Cutler, or particularly care, but someoneE >posting from MSN telling someone he is clueless because he's posting  >from AOL is priceless...  >   ROTFLMAO.  I missed that...darn.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:51:14 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nvb6v$n71$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   G In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141121420.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>, /    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: ' >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Alan Greig wrote:  > I >> Showstopper covers Cutler warts and all but the impression given is he H >> only gets away with his behaviour - first at DEC then at MS - because@ >> he is such a brilliant coder.  I'm only quoting what it says. > H >That's one of the principal reasons I am badgering Mme. jmfbah, becauseH >among a few alpha-male greybeards I know, Cutler is the only guy I have> >ever heard mentioned with anything approaching hero-worship.   = Then you've never had exposure to the PDP-10 side of the biz.   A >Another story is that if he finds code in a printer before it is J >retrieved, the owner is/was likely to find it graded when they get there.  , That was one of the useful things he did do.   /BAH   >   ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:52:52 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9nvba1$n71$7@bob.news.rcn.net>   ( In article <9ntjka$9pj$1@pyrite.mv.net>,+    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:  > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nt84i$hap$5@bob.news.rcn.net...  >  >....  > > >> Who wrote it?  I knew and worked with a number of brilliantF >> coders.  They chose to stay in the coding half of the organization.@ >> Those who were competenet tended to chose the management half7 >> of the org.  I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.e >oG >I have.  He wrote fast, he wrote tight, and he wrote well.   Any otherS >questions?0  < I know he was able to do that.  It seems to me I even saw it happen once or twice.      /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:12:41 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)( Message-ID: <9nvd0n$l7f$1@pyrite.mv.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:9nvav9$n71$4@bob.news.rcn.net...2 > In article <oq3d5pg0tc.fsf@premise.demon.co.uk>,8 >    peter@premise.demon.co.uk (Peter G. Hancock) wrote: > ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> writes: > >p9 > >    jmfbahciv> I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.i > >iI > >VMS engineering had an incredible "phallic" cult of the coder, which Il > >think came from Cutler. >p@ > I don't know if it started with him, but NIH was definitely an; > art form in neck of the biz.  Like I've mentioned, he wasp9 > in the management track so the nuts and bolts of the OS # > wasn't really within his control.a  L That's complete bullshit:  I wasn't part of the VMS V1 development group butL was very close to a lot of people who were, and it was absolutely clear thatI the nuts and bolts of VMS V1 were more under his control than under othereI single individual's - leaving aside the major amounts of its code that heR wrote himself.     The VMS montior group hade8 > membership of 200 people.  No one person could oversee; > that complete set of bits a group like that could output.   J That's probably correct, and I suspect that he mostly left things like theI file system to Andy and the initial native RMS code to Chris and Paulina.(L But the core of the kernel was absolutely under his thumb, every line of it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:29:48 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)( Message-ID: <9nve0p$m53$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9nvd0n$l7f$1@pyrite.mv.net...   ...e  L > That's probably correct, and I suspect that he mostly left things like theK > file system to Andy and the initial native RMS code to Chris and Paulina.sJ > But the core of the kernel was absolutely under his thumb, every line of it.   I Didn't mean to slight the late Ed Marison in the above, who was technicallK lead for both RMS-32 and RMS-11.  Until it shipped in January, 1977, almostfJ all his coding effort was directed toward getting RMS-11 out the door, andI after that the infamous TRAX version, but I suspect he got some code into.# the initial RMS-32 release as well.t   - bill   >e > - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:57:11 GMTh' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>n< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)0 Message-ID: <3BA35461.E3D3C541@bellatlantic.net>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > " <<SNIPPED portions to save space>> > = > Who wrote it?  I knew and worked with a number of brillianteE > coders.  They chose to stay in the coding half of the organization. ? > Those who were competenet tended to chose the management halfh6 > of the org.  I've never looked at Cutler's raw code.9 This is a very interesting and accurate observation barb,tA from my perspective it is exactly on the point.  I was a hardwarel? guy, but I worked with enough coders and hackers to come to the ; conclusion that we did have a goodly number of really trulyoA brilliant coders, and a goodly number of really competent coders,cA yeah and a couple of schlubs but they really did not stick aroundt long.e  @ Lars, Barb, the rest of the crew: how many of you ex deccies canC recall sitting in the coffee sessions and having folks come up withB< designs that turned into tools and products? Sitting in the C cafeteria, at a blackboard/whiteboard (when they came out)? Sitting0C in one of the bars having a hamburger and then running back to workl to crank out the code?  ? I saw this all the time. I saw hardware designs change when onen@ of the crew would say "if you did it this way I could save code ? on the ISR...." or " If you did it this way, my code could fit   into a one page driver."    @ There were some truly brilliant coders and there there were some? really competent coders who would have been superstars in just r about any other environment.  < I will leave my comments on this thread at that for the time being. bob    >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:53:00 -0500w+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>t< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109151150190.16128-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  , On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  I > In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141121420.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,r1 >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:t >rJ > >That's one of the principal reasons I am badgering Mme. jmfbah, becauseJ > >among a few alpha-male greybeards I know, Cutler is the only guy I have@ > >ever heard mentioned with anything approaching hero-worship.  > ? > Then you've never had exposure to the PDP-10 side of the biz.m  > I haven't.  Are you saying they had more heroes or sycophants?   -- e6 I liked HP before DEC, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:00:53 -0500t+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>l< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109151154090.16128-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  % On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Bill Todd wrote:r  L > That's probably correct, and I suspect that he mostly left things like theK > file system to Andy and the initial native RMS code to Chris and Paulina. N > But the core of the kernel was absolutely under his thumb, every line of it.  I That's the way -11M was.  If the code was kernel, he wrote it.  If it was G privileged, he read it.  This isn't a case of asserting that Cutler wasa$ the lone gunman on the grassy knoll.   -- a< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.h   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:30:22 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert) @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit+ Message-ID: <9nushu$msh$1@sword.avalon.net>l   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  G > dollars of annual revenue to Tandem.  Then the speaker mentioned that F > HP had no fault tolerant products of its own.  But that is as far as    I HP bought Stratus in the mid 90s, they sell fault tolerant products, justeI not under the "HP" name.  If they quit the market, that's news to me.  HPhF even put some lockstep hardware in PA-RISC (similar to what Compaq wasJ adding to the 21364) which it was assumed was for the Stratus line, though1 presumably it would be moved to IA-64 eventually.i   --H Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net  " He who laughs last thinks slowest.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:24:55 GMT ( From: jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier)@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit2 Message-ID: <XwJo7.673$O6.1601@grover.nit.gwu.edu>  + In article <9nushu$msh$1@sword.avalon.net>, 8 Douglas Siebert <dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net> wrote: >iJ >HP bought Stratus in the mid 90s, they sell fault tolerant products, justJ >not under the "HP" name.  If they quit the market, that's news to me.  HPG >even put some lockstep hardware in PA-RISC (similar to what Compaq was K >adding to the 21364) which it was assumed was for the Stratus line, thoughk2 >presumably it would be moved to IA-64 eventually.  I I don't think that this is quite accurate. On the other hand, everything  1 below relies on my notoriously unreliable memory.t  I Stratus is/was an independent corporation. It was purchased by Alcatel iniI 1999 or so. They only wanted a bit of the networking portion, and quicklya* spun out the computer division of Stratus.  D HP does, or did resell Stratus' fault tolerant boxes, which probablyJ explains the confusion. Stratus had moved from the i860 to the PA-RISC. ItJ sells their own HP-UX systems, along with their proprietary VOS (which hasH some similarities to Multics), FTX, a fault tolerant Unix (well, it usedB to sell them; I think FTX is now dead), and lately Windows NT/2000 systems.  G They've got some awfully neat technologies. I've admired them from afarpC for some time now. See www.stratus.com or comp.sys.stratus for moret information.   			Yours Truly,C 			Jeffrey Boulier -- d Community Source & Support   ------=>Prometheus<=------   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:54:21 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>o@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <usndoic9e.fsf@earthlink.net>b  * jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier) writes: > F > HP does, or did resell Stratus' fault tolerant boxes, which probablyL > explains the confusion. Stratus had moved from the i860 to the PA-RISC. ItL > sells their own HP-UX systems, along with their proprietary VOS (which hasJ > some similarities to Multics), FTX, a fault tolerant Unix (well, it usedD > to sell them; I think FTX is now dead), and lately Windows NT/2000
 > systems.  C wasn't HP also trying to sell sequoia ft in the early '90s. ibm was 8 marketing s/88 during this period ... a logo'ed stratus.     --  H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:53:19 GMTo' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>b@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit/ Message-ID: <3BA399CB.5EF898A@bellatlantic.net>y   Jeffrey Boulier wrote: > - > In article <9nushu$msh$1@sword.avalon.net>,f: > Douglas Siebert <dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net> wrote: > >-L > >HP bought Stratus in the mid 90s, they sell fault tolerant products, justL > >not under the "HP" name.  If they quit the market, that's news to me.  HPI > >even put some lockstep hardware in PA-RISC (similar to what Compaq wasyM > >adding to the 21364) which it was assumed was for the Stratus line, thoughl4 > >presumably it would be moved to IA-64 eventually. > J > I don't think that this is quite accurate. On the other hand, everything3 > below relies on my notoriously unreliable memory.y > K > Stratus is/was an independent corporation. It was purchased by Alcatel in K > 1999 or so. They only wanted a bit of the networking portion, and quickly , > spun out the computer division of Stratus. > F > HP does, or did resell Stratus' fault tolerant boxes, which probablyL > explains the confusion. Stratus had moved from the i860 to the PA-RISC. ItL > sells their own HP-UX systems, along with their proprietary VOS (which hasJ > some similarities to Multics), FTX, a fault tolerant Unix (well, it usedD > to sell them; I think FTX is now dead), and lately Windows NT/2000
 > systems.D What were Stratus's roots? I seem to recall a bunch of deccies goingD there, I seem to recall some apollo crew going there BUT I too might be suffering from CRS.  E The reason for the crospost continuation on this thread, imho, is thewE interesting bits in the stratus architecture.  Tandem, dec, IBM, iirca@ pyramid, and many others, have done interesting to me things to B attempt to achieve fault tolerant systems that really had the goal7 100% perceived availability and many nines reliability.n  > If we look at the soft failover things, like clustering (imho)D offerings, do they really achieve the perception of 100% availblity?C I don't see how this is possible with NT, yeah I have looked at theo= veritas product, but it does not quite seem to be at the samen? level of tandem or stratus or some of the others because of htedB way it handles nt shares.  Now, vms does do clustering differently@ than veritas, and seems to get close to or up to the perception. bob     I > They've got some awfully neat technologies. I've admired them from afareE > for some time now. See www.stratus.com or comp.sys.stratus for moree > information. > & >                         Yours Truly,) >                         Jeffrey Boulierr > -- > Community Source & Support > ------=>Prometheus<=------   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:07:52 GMTi. From: "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.chinet.com>( Subject: I am Adam H. Kerman your master- Message-ID: <5f9aec03.b6c5343b@yzagnyx.ac.cr>   F That's right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking,E brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I'm taking over all of Usenet! TherepD isn't a fucking thing you can do about it either! You're all a bunchF of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don'tF like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenetF history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your1 knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self!.  3 I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET!   ? My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time B forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    =    ***** This was posted with the express permission of ***** =    ********************************************************** =    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET **2=    **********************************************************e=    *********** We are simple servants of his will ***********e    E This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutelyxB NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the$ insignificant bugs that you all are!  C I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I,tB for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me!  ) THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN!r  7 ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET!t    = My moronic zipdisk won't eliminate before I collaborate it.  s@ Don't roll the subroutines generally, infect them happily.  The 7 desktops, networks, and protocols are all insecure and e9 shiny.  Who consumes compleatly, when Quincy formats the h6 blank BASIC throughout the IRC server?  Otherwise the 5 keyhole in Mikie's Blowfish might filter some strong d6 scanners.  Where did Chuck manage the computer in the < sly warning?  It's very solid today, I'll exclude neatly or 6 Russ will save the ideas.  She wants to prepare quiet 8 modems about Gavin's cybercafe.  Woodrow's backup washs 4 for our machine after we burst behind it.  He'll be 9 transporting around untamed Bob until his TCP/IP defeats o5 lovingly.  Where will you examine the worthwhile new S; connectors before Felix does?  Will you produce behind the e? store, if Evelyn daily propagates the advisor?  Kenny wants to n8 proliferate slowly, unless Dilbert contradicts buillons 5 outside John's telephone.  While black bags strongly p6 push firewalls, the artichokes often float within the 6 violent ROMs.  Tony quickly interfaces overloaded and > spools our vulnerable, odd inputs around a FTP server.  Until 8 Timothy insulates the tablets absolutely, Gilbert won't : contribute any messy zones.  They are busting without the 6 doorway now, won't locate investigators later.  I was @ creating Javas to upper Margaret, who's twisting throughout the ; enigma's database.  If you will obscure Tamara's satellite r4 about screens, it will badly dream the data haven.  6 Christopher doesn't distribute stupid laptops, do you 3 prioritize them?  They are inflating within inner, o6 to old, with resilient FORTRANs.  I was connecting to < crawl you some of my ugly texts.  He will post partially if  Ron's president isn't clear.     ------------------------------    Date: 16 Sep 2001 03:15:52 +1200/ From: Christian Garms <c.garms@paradise.net.nz>i, Subject: Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master, Message-ID: <m2zo7web87.fsf@tiger.wgnetz.de>  0 "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.chinet.com> writes:  % > X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.caf   [x] mail sent to his ISP.l  5 > I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET!,   *plonk*i   -- d regards,* 	Christian		mailto:c.garms@paradise.net.nz   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 08:35:02 -07000 From: wlewis@mailbag.com (William Barnett-Lewis)+ Subject: ISO Image of Freeware 4 or 5 CD's? = Message-ID: <63f0b8f5.0109150735.6d04e482@posting.google.com>l  F Is there anywhere that I could download an image file for these CDs? I? have a burner on a Unix box but not on my VAX. I've not had anyl success searching.   Thanks in advance,   William.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:18:09 -0700i& From: fredm3047@inwa.net (Fred Morris)5 Subject: java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUSv@ Message-ID: <fredm3047-1409012318090001@216-173-211-38.inwa.net>  G Since I was bored, I wrote a Java 1.1 applet to do slide shows, and forrJ reasons I cannot explain, I put together a slide show of the last DECUS in( Anaheim before DEC was bought by Compaq.  	 Got Java?e  2   http://m3047.inwa.net/slideshow/decus/index.html  H Don't pay any attention to the link, it just goes to another demo of the  applet.. at least at the moment.   --   Fred MorrisbN fredm3047@inwa.net <-- must put I-ACK on subject line to reply at this address   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Sep 2001 11:04:58 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)o9 Subject: Re: java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUS , Message-ID: <9nvckq$7kv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  @ In article <fredm3047-1409012318090001@216-173-211-38.inwa.net>,' Fred Morris <fredm3047@inwa.net> wrote:l >o
 >Got Java? >s3 >  http://m3047.inwa.net/slideshow/decus/index.html   ?   Great!  Brought back some memories.  It's even got my VAXbar. * Are the actual images available somewhere?   -- Vance Haemmerlef vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:46:43 GMTB& From: fredm3047@inwa.net (Fred Morris)9 Subject: Re: java applet slide show of the last DEC DECUSs@ Message-ID: <fredm3047-1509010743560001@216-173-211-38.inwa.net>  E In article <9nvckq$7kv@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, vance@alumni.caltech.edu  (Vance R. Haemmerle) wrote:I  B > In article <fredm3047-1409012318090001@216-173-211-38.inwa.net>,) > Fred Morris <fredm3047@inwa.net> wrote:P > >a > >Got Java? > >o5 > >  http://m3047.inwa.net/slideshow/decus/index.html  > A >   Great!  Brought back some memories.  It's even got my VAXbar. , > Are the actual images available somewhere?  F Ah. You noticed. ;-) The images are not embedded in the applet, but itH gets the URLS for them from a seKr3T location; I'm sure you could figureI it out with a packet sniffer though. Tell me which ones you want, and I'daB be happy to e-mail them to you; they might even be a little betterG resolution. Anybody who makes a wet bar out of a VAX 780 is a friend oft) mine! Way beyond a Mac Classic fish tank.e  B Check the message summary header for my unfiltered e-mail address.   --   Fred MorrisiN fredm3047@inwa.net <-- must put I-ACK on subject line to reply at this address   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:10:13 GMTa/ From: "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net>s Subject: Re: memory channeltF Message-ID: <VXLo7.7020$na5.1625389@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net>  E I hope your memory channel configuration includes a hub...  Direct MC 
 connection
 is a problem.x   Regards, Tomt  1 "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in messageo8 news:9mno7.150841$aZ.23163380@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...B > We have just installed an ES40 with VMS 7.2-1, and installed theK > UPDATE-V0300 ECO.  Most things so far are ok, but when during the installe itG > did not ask anything about memory channel.  (It did ask if we will bea usingoL > the LAN  as a cluster interconnect, to which we responded YES).  When I do awH > SHOW DEVICE   device MCA0 is UNAVAILABLE.  I don't know if I am having someF > sort of configuration or software problem, or am I having a hardware
 > problem. >aF > I am having a real hard time concentrating on this at all, what withI > everything that is happening.  I have been reading the thread about thel WTC E > and I can see both sides of the debate (actually, there are several  sides).iL > Each side has valid points.  I read about Companies in the WTC needing VAXH > 7800 boards.  We will have 17 of these available as soon as we get ourL > Alphas installed and the applications migrated. (They are already promised/ > to a vendor, who now needs them for the WTC).i > K > I have also heard that several CPQ people have died.  One was a presenter H > going to CETS that was in one of the planes that hit the WTC.  Several > others were in the WTC.0 >@F > Work seems the only way to take my mind off this.  But work seems soI > irrelevant in comparison.  I have never been affected this way by world>H > events before.  Even when my classmates were in Vietnam and I was home with  > a draft lottery number of 285. >mA > But back to the memory channel.  Any advice on how to make MCA0  > "available"? >p >c   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Sep 2001 11:18:18 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)a, Subject: Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ?, Message-ID: <9nvddq$7pa@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  ( In article <3ba0b5b6@news.kapsch.co.at>,+ Peter LANGSTOEGER <eplan@kapsch.net> wrote:e8 >AFAIK, I once read an COMPAQ 'official' statement about > ? >	"NETSCAPE V6 will - when finished - be available for OpenVMS"a >uE >because of the efforts of the MOZILLA/Seamonkey for OpenVMS project.1 >:E >Now, NETSCAPE V6.1 (Note: I don't count NETSCAPE V6.0 as a browser -:D >I call it bullshit) is out for some platforms, but not for OpenVMS.  >What now ? Am I too impatient ?  H   The Mozilla release notes used to say that.  That when Mozilla reachedK version 1.0, and a Netscape branded version existed, one would be availableeB for OpenVMS.  A few months later this changed to say that simply aH supported version of Mozilla 1.0 would eventually be available.  I guessH Netscape refused to supply their additions for OpenVMS and Compaq had to& settle for the freeware version.  See:  H http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/mozilla_relnotes.html  D >Or is the fact, that MOZILLA 0.9.3 mostly doesn't run at all on allF >my test systems (ok, I did a upgrade from 0.9.2 which ran way better;F >and I still need to do a fresh install of 0.9.3 and see if that makesD >a difference) and the fact, that MOZILLA still doesn't support JAVAF >on OpenVMS the great block on the road to NETSCAPE V6.x for OpenVMS ?  H   Yes I noticed a number of problems in 0.9.3 that weren't in 0.9.2 withI the missing background problem (which I reported to bugzilla and it seemsa) will be fixed in 0.9.4) just one of them.    -- Vance Haemmerleu vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:26:09 +0100e& From: "Daza" <blahblah@btinternet.com>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK3 Message-ID: <9nvka6$bvk$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>   + <William_Bochnik@acml.com> wrote in message 8 news:OF7A2DD735.FEA38371-ON85256AC7.004C20ED@acml.com... > G > any one know where a copy of the radio show on cd could be pruchased?a >tC You can get the Radio show on CD from www.bbcshop.com.  Look in the % Science Fiction section (of course!).e   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:35:24 GMTs* From: "Dirk Lockard" <r.d.lockard@att.net> Subject: OT: WTC Uncle SamH Message-ID: <0zKo7.20980$Uf1.1875222@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  ; The sentiment of many Americans is expressed in this poster, by Ron Chivari of Houston.  -    http://bluegenie.home.att.net/unclesam.htmq   Dirk Lockard   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:58:27 -0400r0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <tq6n5t16m99nf8@news.supernews.com>e   Bill  ? I wasn't saying that it is wrong just that it needs clarifying.vB I was trying to say is that it is not relevant to the current day.I There are now too many "scholars" intent on manipulating the constitution9I through their insane interpretations Interpretations on such a wide scopep don't work.mI - kinda like the extremist/fundamentalists of Islam- oh and Alan G - readtI "the Cow" at the beginning of the Koran and tell me who's wrong and who'si right.   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & partsw http://www.islandco.com  sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.  2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404s Tel: 912 447 6622T Fax: 912 201 0096  ICQ#: 130698221/0 Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9nmne6$r1b$1@pyrite.mv.net... >p= > "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in messager+ > news:tptj8nrhhb1j02@news.supernews.com...JK > > Great Bob - but they didn't have 767's raining terror on them back then- > >-I > > The US Constitution was a great document when written - but 200 years J > > later - it has as much relevance to modern day liberty as I do the the9 > > computing hardware requirements of George Washington.r >iK > Y'know, it's the thought of people like you deciding to 'improve' it that 2 > makes people like me so intent on protecting it. >  > - bill >c >u >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:18:14 -0400U2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1509011018150001@user-2ivec1v.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleA <rdeininger-1409011959340001@user-2ivea6b.dialup.mindspring.com>, 3 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote:   * > Other reports have at least one group ofL > people trapped, but using cell phones to communicate.  They are supposedlyL > uninjured and have some accessible water.  Unless this is another spurious > rumor.  < Unfortunately, this is now being called an intentional hoax.   -- ( Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com8   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:34:26 -0400h( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterK Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10109150859080.9309-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>   , On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Robert Deininger wrote:  E > In article <b9luptkjs1s38d9vlk6nbe4g9on1n96te6@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  > <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:  >  > J > > What category do the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fall into? I'mE > > well aware of the tremendous losses imposed on US forces fightinghD > > their way through the Japanese Islands and the reluctance of theI > > Japanese military to surrender so I am not saying the bomb should noteD > > have  been dropped but I also cannot define the occupants of theB > > cities as anything other than innocent civilians in the main.  > H > I agree, many civilians were unfortunately killed and injured.  That'sH > true in any war; it was just a bigger scale in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > I > There were also many military targets.  One in Nagasaki was the factorygJ > that made the special shallow-water torpedoes the Japanese used at PearlL > Harbor.  A trivial point against the background of the whole war, but also > fitting in a way.s    F This Hiroshima - Nagasaki garbage gets trotted out by everytime peopleI feel like attacking the US.  Especially by dis-loyal Americans who choosetF to live in and enjoy the freedoms provided by the many people who diedI providing it while not thinking they owe their predecesors or the countryc3 anything.  Let's put this to rest once and for all.e  H As for warnings.  At the time of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a state ofI war existed between the United States and Japan.  War, especially in thatnG era, involved bombing.  Do you think perhaps the Japanese people didn'tnI know this??  At the time the Japanese attacked and bombed Hawaii, we weretD supposedly at peace.  How much warning did they give the civilians??  L Now, back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Hiroshima was a military headquarters,I one apparently important enough that Tokyo dispatched a plane to check onrK the status of it shortly after the bomb was dropped and contact, which mustcI have been pretty steadily maintained up til then, was lost.  Sounds to me L like cowards using their civilian population for a shield.  As for Nagasaki,K leaflets were dropped all over Japan warning the people to leave the cities H that were prime targets for future bombings.  Do you think the people ofL Nagasaki didn't know what they were building in those Mitsubishi factories??D That leaves two possibilities.  Either their own government and armyI prevented them from leaving or the people thought building more torpedoessJ was more important than their lives.  In either case, you can not say thatH the United States did not warn them.  Something unheard of in warfare upG to that time.  American pilots put themselves at great risk to fly overaF ahead of time to drop warning leaflets.  I don't remember the Japanese! doing this to anyone they bombed.   J The United States was not the villian then and we are not the villian now.G And we will not be the villian when we flatten the people who did this.n  L As for me, because of my age it is unlikely that I would be reactivated, butI if I were, would report in a heartbeat.  I honestly wish they would!!  In L 1968 I took an oath to defend this country and I repeated that oath a numberI of times after that and I still take that oath very seriously.  There are*J things even I don't like about the US, but it is still the best country inL the world and it is the actions of the citizenry willing to even die for theF ideals of freedom that this country represents that have made it thus.   bill   -- *J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:47:08 -0400e( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterK Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10109151043410.9678-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>r  - On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:s   > J > I read a story recently where a twin-engine recip. was loaded with Jet-A3 > and the resulting problems - never left the ramp.   H I don't recollect any recently that made the press, but back in the daysH when I was interested in Army Aviation I remember reading of a number ofH crashes (civilian, not military) of small craft that were the result of K putting JP4 in things like Piper, Beach and Cessna's.  They usually crashedu. just off the end of the runway during takeoff.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:52:58 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>u( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA3795A.AC903811@virgin.net>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  
 > Boeing 707:c9 > http://www.boeing.com/commercial/707family/product.htmli >t >r  L You should be looking at the specs for the 707-320 (707 Intercontinental) asB it was that variant the tower was designed to withstand a hit from    G > It is also interesting to note that while the 707 can carry more fuel F > (at the expense of payload), the 757 has a greater range capability. >b  I I think you are looking at the specs for the original 707 rather than the./ 707-320. And there's a considerable difference.,   >oH > Let's try to not to descend into nit-picking on aircraft details. This > is about an act of war.n >i  M When all is said and done I will bet money on US lawyers not seeing this as ad& "nit picking detail". Unfortunately...   >- > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systemsm > http://www.djesys.com/ >r* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/7   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:55:39 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA379FA.BB03DAF7@virgin.net>   Wayne Sewell wrote:r   >n >aQ > Maybe they were talking about the Pentagon.  It has such a mall.  Or did.  I've L > only been to it once, and don't know where it is in relation to the impact* > site or whether it sustained any damage. >6 >b  _ It was definitely at the WTC , According to some email from people who passed through regularlyl/ there were around 100 shops under the WTC area.u   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 10:06:55 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com-B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nvj5d$p5u$1@bob.news.rcn.net>i  G In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141032360.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,-/    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:e- >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >sK >> In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109131041190.18653-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,i2 >>    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: >>J >> >I'm really not after causing anyone apoplexy or anything, but I don't  meanG >> >"at DEC" in the early '70's. Did you work side-by-side, in a direct., >> >management role, or directly under him?  >>  : >> Neither.  IF he had a tech job to be done he would have; >> submitted it to my group.  The people who worked FOR himr< >> all submitted jobs to my group.  We provided a service to+ >> the people in his group who needed it.  U > + >What service and what group, if I can ask.   B I thought I did say...Tape Prep..short for Tape Preparation Group.7 We lived right next door to Ken Olsen in Building 12-1.s     >tI >> You won't understand the implications of the following but we also hadmB >> our offices in the same building and drank from the same coffee >> machine.? > I >Um, that's not entirely fair.  I was there myself, though only on one or-J >two occasions, and I was probably only waist high.  I did witness (and beB >mostly bored through) a couple of coffee machine chat sessions.    9 Then you never say _my_ chat session [wry emoticon here]..   > H >BTW, we learned about caffeine withdrawal before my father learned thatD >setting a least upper bound on cups of coffee drunk from the coffeeJ >machine located immediately outside one's office would prevent having theI >DT's late Saturday morning.  Sorry, don't recall which building -- couldm  >find out, but it was Parker St.   Parker Street was later.   >AA >Anyway, perhaps I'm only trying to understand what I heard then.i >.D >> See above. We provided a technical service.  You won't understandE >> because you're too young and not experienced in the ways computing  >> was done back then. >lJ >I likely will understand, or at least with not much assistance.  What did( >you do?  Was it like revision control?    No.h  % >  Surely it was more than punch cardr >or paper tape entry!  Yes.0  Perhaps something more akin to proof-reading?    
 that, too.  6 >Keeping code honest, some sort of pre-test debugging?  = Just initial trail assemblies to ferret out the obvious typosa7 and bugs.  Those of us who knew more would seek out the 9 submitter of the job and ask about things we thought weree> errors...for instance, did you really want this branch to that0 label or did you mean to write this other label.  < We also did all of the on-line docs preparation.  Writing in9 those days was all done on paper.  It was one of my major : accomplishments to get all of DEC's docs into bits.  Until9 I started my campaign, most of the documentation was done ! on repro paper with a typewriter.-   <snip>  G >> People didn't generally type in their programs on-line (there was no A >> such thing in Cutler's area...only the PDP-10 provided on-line E >> computing service in those days). These people used coding sheets,oI >> submitted them to us to transform into a specified flavor of bits, andA; >> went back to their office to write more code on _paper_.g >tJ >Sorry, madam, but I indeed have experience in how programs were developed >on paper.    @ But you don't have it at DEC.  I'm trying to tell you how it was done back then.h   <snip>  $ >> > ... I think he would be happierJ >> >if there were sufficient time for him to just do it himself.  Educated >> >guess.)  >> a >> No.   >I >Assertion?  Source? n  > He wasn't happy when he was doing it himself.  He wasn't happyA having other people do work.  He also had a limited [what I call]n? anticipation imagination.  This limitation is OK as long as youe@ let others anticipation imagination prepare for future releases. >l% >> >> In his case, he dropped bits.  o >> >( >> >Parity error? <g>  What did he drop? >> e >> 20 of them. >t" >You can't blame Cutler for that.   . See above about the aniticipation imagination.  + > ... The pdp-11 was in existence before hevF >came to DEC from DuPont.  I think you're really mad at Gordon Bell!    	 Him, too.e   > ...SoaH >this starts to sound, again, more like a resentment that makes sense.   >Perhaps something like  >vF >"The -10 never had the address space limitations of the -11, thus theJ >expenditure of time and money on a kludge of the -11, later known as VAX,G >was silly since there already existed a system that could do what theys >were trying to do."  ? The PDP-11 was never a kludge.  It was a fine machine.  You're e? trying to analyze me with no basis so that my opinion of CutlerC can be dismissed as pure bias.   > H >But, as I understand it, the market for the -11 in lab and control appsI >was bigger than the -10 ever was (that's not what the -10 was for).  YouwJ >just would never sell a -10 to a guy who just needed a little box for hisK >lab, so the -11 *was* justified, at least at the beginning.  I mean, afterI2 >all, that's the kind of stuff DEC was founded on.  . We had markets for the whole range of systems.   >aJ >I won't speak to what the -10's raison d'etre was, but perhaps you would?    I have.  Go read that newsgroup.   >tC >> I'm not talking shortcomings, although that's difficult to avoida> >> in the case of Cutler.  I'm talking about work done w.r.t. + >> how an operating system got developed.  e >rG >This may be more clear when you tell what group you were with and whatz >service you provided.  A Over all the years I worked at DEC?  I don't understand what kindmD of information you are asking for (since I've already described some of it).i   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 10:12:04 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nvjf1$p5u$2@bob.news.rcn.net>t  * In article <3BA28084.73167456@virgin.net>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:a >i >b >Lars Poulsen wrote: >e >>> >> that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code in the RMSD >> (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no equivalent in> >> Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the business >> >uH >Just a minor correction. TOPS-20 did support RMS but not as complete anH >implementation as in VMS. Don't recall if TOPS-10 ever had RMS support.  @ It was shipped as an application (kinda like FORTRAN). I finally# got it bundled in on the CUSP tape.s   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail..   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 10:13:31 GMT- From: jmfbahciv@aol.com-B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nvjho$p5u$3@bob.news.rcn.net>m  8 In article <3hj5qt0lf39d8accn86hm5tfl9ecsf5tul@4ax.com>,2    Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote: >pG >>Having observed Barbara's participation on alt.folklore.computers and.C >>alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possibly later managing,-5 >>a group origianlly called tape duplication services  >lE >Sounds like a cranky old lady nursing bitter memories over her eightd >scotch....s; >alt.flame is probably a better place for Barbara's obscuren
 >ruminations.i  : Fine.  The fact that the lastest fiasco with Alpha and VMS4 is causing me deja vus should be completely ignored.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.g   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 10:14:52 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comoB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nvjk8$p5u$4@bob.news.rcn.net>g  H In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109142356280.26009-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,/    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:l) >On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Israel Raj T wrote:u >sI >> >Having observed Barbara's participation on alt.folklore.computers andaE >> >alt.sys.pdp10, I believe she was in, and possibly later managing,t7 >> >a group origianlly called tape duplication servicesI >>  G >> Sounds like a cranky old lady nursing bitter memories over her eight0
 >> scotch....s= >> alt.flame is probably a better place for Barbara's obscurer >> ruminations.t >-< >If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. >					--Thumper's Dad. >a@ >Besides that, she has good stories.  Don't stifle them, please. > = Nah.  I'll just yak in the other two good places where we can : argue about what is said rather than what they think is my psychosis.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 10:16:14 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com B Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9nvjmr$p5u$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <6vp5qtscj23m0vnq8qvngcdqfumie6bvgv@4ax.com>,2    Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:  + >Perhaps, but comp.arch is the wrong group.m  4 Sigh!  OK.  I'll snip the newsgroups.  My apologies.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:45:09 -0500a+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>tB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109151143530.16128-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  ( On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Israel Raj T wrote:  5 > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:59:07 -0500, Phil Mendelsohnl > <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:> > >If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. > >					--Thumper's Dad.B > >Besides that, she has good stories.  Don't stifle them, please. > , > Perhaps, but comp.arch is the wrong group.$ > Some dec or vms group might be ok.  9 The thread is crossposted to comp.arch, comp.sys.dec, ands$ comp.os.vms.  That's usenet for you.   -- a< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:56:28 +0200o From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>( Subject: Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date' Message-ID: <3BA317BC.214D62C9@home.nl>n  E Less than a year ago, it was still possible to order new VAX 7800 CPUuJ boards. I even made a cost calculation comparing upgrading an existing VAXH 76n0 configuration to a VAX78n0 configuration, with a software migration* to Alpha. The software migration won :-)).   "antonio.carlini" wrote:   > Rick Nickles wrote:eH > >         I'm wanting to see if there is anyone who knows what the EndH > > of Life date for the VAX 7000's is going to be?  Do you know who the4 > > people who make this decision within Compaq are? >t) > If you mean "When will be the last datee- > I can order one?" the answer is in the paste/ > (by quite a way). The COMPAQ website seems tod- > have lost the info (or it's too well hiddene* > for my cursory search to find the info). > * > There are no more NVAX chips left - they- > were all built into the last set of modules $ > AFAIK. Once the remaining CPUs and( > related cards in the COMPAQ stockrooms* > are gone, there will be no replacements. >r* > I've already seen requests from at least' > two sources stating that the Pentagonb# > are looking for 70+ VAX 7800s, so " > that's COMPAQ's spares gone too.$ > If the request is genuine (and one( > had a COMPAQ contact address attached)( > then I expect that End Of Service Life > is just around the corner! > 	 > Antonioe >o > -- >t > ---------------a/ > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgc   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Sep 2001 02:12 CDTu' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)l Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf- Message-ID: <15SEP200102123656@gerg.tamu.edu>p  2 Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes... }If you dont remember: } 4 }"RAMBO" helped the "Talibans", when the Russians=20% }were trying to exterminate them !=20s }  }  }Regards  & No he didn't. That was the Mujahadeen.  B The Russians pulled out of Afghanistan in 1989, and the governmentB that they had installed was overthrown in 1992. The Taliban didn'tB show up in Afghanistan until about 1995. It's leaders are actuallyB from Pakistan, where they were from a few religious schools (whichB doesn't mean they have a general education - some of the Taliban'sA leaders are actually illiterate, having learned the Koran orally,hD for example). These days they control most of Afghanistan - somthingC around 95%, all but part of the north end which is still controlledeB by opposition forces (who are the ones that attacked the area nearA Kabul about 16 hours after the WTC/Pentagon attack in retaliationdC for the nearly successful attempt on one of their military leader'soH lives not too long ago - the timing was almost certainly a coincidence).G Presumably some, or even most, of the Taliban used to be Mujahadeen, asnD were the opposition (and possibly still are - I don't know what theyJ call themselves; after the Mujahadeen took over they called the governmentG the Islamic Jihad, or something along those lines, so they may be using. that).  D Anyhow, Rambo could hardly have been helping people who weren't evenE in Afghanistan yet. At the time the movie (Rambo III) was written, itfG came out in 1988 according to the IMDB, nobody had heard of the Taliban + (if they even existed under that name yet).-   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:57:35 +0200b& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade CenterP* Message-ID: <3BA317FF.958E9FC3@dplanet.ch>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > John McLean wrote: > = > >  What is desperately needed is a review of why US actionsg > 5 > you mean like the creation of thge state of Israel.e    @ No I do not (at least not in the context of the WTC and Pentagon attacks!  @ Although now that you mention it, I would (as a matter a generalE interest) be interested to learn the reasoning behind the decision to D create that state and why it is locate where it is.  (I believe that' other locations were also considered.) u  B I mean why so many US foreign policies engender anger and what, ifF anything, can be done to alleviate this.  As I have said before, there: are many US policies which cause dissent around the world.  C Fortunately reactions like the WTC/Pentagon are very rare but if wenF don't look at the causes of the problem then we learn nothing, and are probably doomed to repeat it.     D I started out being very sympathetic to the USA but as the days passC their kneejerk reaction of reaching for a weapon and their stubbornh= refusal to even consider that their policies may somehow havei7 contributed are combining to rapidly erode my sympathy.n     John McLeanr   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:24:02 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: World Trade Center * Message-ID: <3BA37292.C8E5989F@virgin.net>   Tim Llewellyn wrote:   >7> > I actually hope Bush is smarter than he seems. For everyone. >t  N And, so far, he does seem to be handling things calmly and carefully under the circumstances.  R Noticed as well that when he was asked today if Bin Laden was the prime suspect heR replied "he is what we would call *a* prime suspect". The caption at the bottom ofS the screem immediately repeated "Bush says bin Laden *the* prime suspect". There is.S a very clear difference between the two and he, like Powell, was careful to make it Q despite what some networks report. CNN quoted him accurately however even if some- other agencies did not.   F Even his visit to the disaster site managed to mix 'Texan Cowboy' withO 'Presidential Authority' in a way that worked and I mean no disrespect by Texanr Cowboy.    Time will tell.e --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:11:08 +0100I% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh* Message-ID: <3BA37D9C.5E66A5D1@virgin.net>   Carl Perkins wrote:w  4 > Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes... > }If you dont remember: > }a6 > }"RAMBO" helped the "Talibans", when the Russians=20' > }were trying to exterminate them !=20- > }- > } 
 > }Regards >e( > No he didn't. That was the Mujahadeen. >   N You are letting labels cloud the issue. Why not check out the following links.M Don't let names become the issue here. Concentrate on the people behind them.1    C http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/binladen.section.htmle   and   = http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0498/9804047.htmln   Sample:0  L                Much has been said concerning the Taliban by friends and foesJ                alike, but with conflicting conclusions. The group has beenI                accused of being a political puppet, created by Pakistans L                security, military and religious establishments and sustainedK                financially and otherwise by Saudi Arabia and its allies. On  the J                other hand, the Taliban are praised as a group of religious heroesL                who sprang from within Afghanistans Pashtun ethnic majority.N                Supporters credit them with having replaced violence and social  E                chaos with peace and security in the areas under theirn                domination.  H                Even exhaustive research might not settle the argument toM                everyones satisfaction. A more constructive approach might be,D                to examine how these two diametrically opposing views<                complement rather than contradict each other.  I                As far as Afghanistan is concerned, the history of madarisnM                (religious schools) and taliban (religious students) is as old  as theK                arrival of Islam in that country. Both religious schools andu talibandM                existed long before the modern system of schools and educationo9                was introduced there almost a century ago.o  I Also try www.askjeeves.com and type in "who are the taliban" (without thea' quotes). Lot's of good references here.A       >,D > The Russians pulled out of Afghanistan in 1989, and the governmentD > that they had installed was overthrown in 1992. The Taliban didn'tD > show up in Afghanistan until about 1995. It's leaders are actuallyD > from Pakistan, where they were from a few religious schools (whichD > doesn't mean they have a general education - some of the Taliban'sC > leaders are actually illiterate, having learned the Koran orally,tF > for example). These days they control most of Afghanistan - somthingE > around 95%, all but part of the north end which is still controllediD > by opposition forces (who are the ones that attacked the area nearC > Kabul about 16 hours after the WTC/Pentagon attack in retaliationaE > for the nearly successful attempt on one of their military leader's J > lives not too long ago - the timing was almost certainly a coincidence).I > Presumably some, or even most, of the Taliban used to be Mujahadeen, aswF > were the opposition (and possibly still are - I don't know what theyL > call themselves; after the Mujahadeen took over they called the governmentI > the Islamic Jihad, or something along those lines, so they may be using  > that). >lF > Anyhow, Rambo could hardly have been helping people who weren't evenG > in Afghanistan yet. At the time the movie (Rambo III) was written, itsI > came out in 1988 according to the IMDB, nobody had heard of the Talibans- > (if they even existed under that name yet).w >   N Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. They just didn't control the country at the time. And Bin% Laden was active at the time as well.e  
 > --- Carl   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.514 ************************