1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 16 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 515       Contents: Re: Bomb The Mosques3 Disaster Information Resources and How You Can Help   Re: DNPG and HP Network Products3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit # Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master # Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master # Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master & Re: ISO Image of Freeware 4 or 5 CD's? Re: memory channel Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: programming rms file system 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) P Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to get y Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:07:19 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques ' Message-ID: <3BA3B4F7.8C70761D@home.nl>    cjt & trefoil wrote:   > Dirk Munk wrote: > >  > <snip> > > m > > However an Israeli official did make an interesting suggestion. The people that do these suicide missions h > > think they will go to paradise when they are dead. He suggested to cover the bodies of these suicidek > > bombers in pigs blood. This way they will be unclean, and can not enter paradise. Sounds a bit strange, m > > but this way their fundamentalist believes are used as a weapon against themselves. And if it works .....  > <snip> > ! > Have they tried that in Israel?   : Not to my knowledge, not no many pigs in Israel I suppose.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:07:12 -0400 Q From: "Independent Job Board Reps" <DisasterInfo@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com> < Subject: Disaster Information Resources and How You Can HelpA Message-ID: <6334200196152071262@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 % Content-Type: multipart/alternative;  3 	boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8"   ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 , Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"                      ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 + Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable    <html>   <head>K <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-=  1252">? <meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"Microsoft FrontPage 4=2E0"> @ <meta name=3D"ProgId" content=3D"FrontPage=2EEditor=2EDocument">? <title>Online Donations Help with a click of your mouse</title>  </head>    <body>   <dl>K   <dt><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://www=2Egeocities=2Ecom/onlinepictures= H 2001/online1=2Ejpg" width=3D"232" height=3D"129">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</dt>   <div align=3D"center">     <center>K     <dt><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"4">In place of our weekly newsletter =  we at 3       CollegeJobBoard=2Ecom&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></dt> 
     </center>    </div>   <div align=3D"center">     <center>K       <dt><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"4">have compiled the following info= 
 rmation=20.         to share with everyone you know=2E<br>K         Our prayers are with the victims and their families=2E </font></dt=  > 
     </center>    </div> </dl> 8 <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">	   <tbody>      <tr>6       <td vAlign=3D"top"><!--Network Header Blips//-->         <!--PlaceHolder //-->          <!--Placeholder-->         <!--F <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" width=3D"608"> <tr>K <td valign=3D"bottom" align=3D"left" nowrap rowspan=3D"2"><img src=3D"/i/d= K s/c/spacer=2Egif" height=3D"1" width=3D"8"><a href=3D"/" class=3DttL></a><=  br> K <img border=3D"0" src=3D"/i/ds/c/astvert=2Egif" width=3D"105" height=3D"5"=  ></td>K <td width=3D"60" rowspan=3D"2" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF"><img src=3D"/i/ds/c/sha= - rkfin=2Egif" height=3D"36" width=3D"60"></td> D <td colspan=3D"4" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF" valign=3D"top" align=3D"left">K <img border=3D"0" src=3D"/i/ds/c/astvert=2Egif" width=3D"100%" height=3D"5=  "></td>  </tr>  <tr>K <td width=3D"440" height=3D"31" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF" align=3D"right"><img s= K rc=3D"/i/ds/c/spacer=2Egif" height=3D"30" width=3D"120" border=3D"0"></td>=   K <td width=3D"10" height=3D"31" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF"><img src=3D"/i/ds/c/spa= * cer=2Egif" height=3D"1" width=3D"10"></td>K <td width=3D"120" height=3D"31" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF" align=3D"right"><img b= K order=3D"0" src=3D"/i/ds/c/spacer=2Egif" width=3D"120" height=3D"30"></td>=   K <td width=3D"5" height=3D"31" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF"><img src=3D"/i/ds/c/spac= ( er=2Egif" height=3D"1" width=3D"5"></td> </tr>  <tr>K <td colspan=3D"6" bgcolor=3D"#6600FF" height=3D"2" width=3D"1"><img src=3D= 5 "/i/ds/c/spacer=2Egif" height=3D"2" width=3D"1"></td>  </tr>  </table> --> *         <!--Network ToolBar Functions//-->+         <script language=3D"Javascript">=20  =09  <!--  =20" =09 function mOvr(src,clrOver){=204  =09=09if (!src=2Econtains(event=2EfromElement)){=20E  =09=09src=2Estyle=2Ecursor =3D 'hand'; src=2EbgColor =3D clrOver;=20   =09=09}=20   =09=09}=20    =09function mOut(src,clrIn){=202  =09=09if (!src=2Econtains(event=2EtoElement)){=20-  =09=09src=2Estyle=2Ecursor =3D 'default';=20 "  =09=09src=2EbgColor =3D clrIn;=20  =09=09}=20   =09=09}=20   =09function mClk(src){=205  =09=09if(event=2EsrcElement=2EtagName=3D=3D'TD'){=20 2  =09=09src=2Echildren=2Etags('A')[0]=2Eclick();=20  =09=09}=20   =09=09}=20 
  =09 //-->=20 
 =09 </script>           <!--Network ToolBar//-->L         <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" width=3D"608" bgColor=3D= "#003399" border=3D"0">            <tbody>              <tr>K               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"182" height=3D"188"><!--Blip 3 S=  tarts-->K                 <table height=3D"188" cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" =  width=3D"182" border=3D"0">                    <tbody>                      <tr>(                       <td colSpan=3D"3">0                         <p align=3D"center"><br>K                         <font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"white"><b>Online Don=  ations</b><br>K                         <font size=3D"1">How you can help=2E</font></font>=   K                         <p><b><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FF0000">=95</= , font><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FFFFFF">K                         </font></b><a class=3D"class9" href=3D"https://www= K =2Euwnyc=2Ecom/epledge/sept11=2Ecfm"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" fa=  ce=3D"Arial">United K                         Way September 11th Fund</font></a><font size=3D"2"= &  face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FFFFFF"><br>                         <br>K                         </font><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" color=3D= 
 "#FF0000">=95 M                         </font></b><a class=3D"class9" href=3D"http://www=2E= K redcross=2Eorg/donate/donate=2Ehtml"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" fa=  ce=3D"Arial">American K                         Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund</font></a><font fac= - e=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FFFFFF" size=3D"2"><br>                          <br>K                         </font><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D= 
 "#FF0000">=95 K                         </font></b><a class=3D"class9" href=3D"https://sec= K ure=2Esalvationarmy=2Eorg/salarmy=2Ensf/donation?openform&amp;projectid=3D= M C76126A33A45258E85256AC50073DEE4"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D=  "Arial">Salvation L                         Army Disaster Relief Effort</font></a><font size=3D=) "2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D"Arial"><br>                          <br>K                         </font><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" color=3D= F "#FF0000">=95</font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D"Arial">M                         </font></b><a class=3D"class9" href=3D"http://www=2E= K donationdepot=2Ecom/firefighter/charity_detail=2Easp?catagory=3DLineOfDuty= K &amp;charityID=3D115721&amp;nav=3DF"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" fa=  ce=3D"Arial">Firefighter, L                         EMS, and Rescue Relief Fund</font></a><font size=3D=) "2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D"Arial"><br>                          <br>K                         </font><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" color=3D= F "#FF0000">=95</font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D"Arial">K                         </font></b><a class=3D"class9" href=3D"https://ssl= L =2Echarityweb=2Enet/mercycorps/"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D=
 "Arial">Mercy >                         Corps Trauma Counseling</font></a></p>K                         <p><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FF= K 0000">=95</font></b><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF">&nbs=  p;L                         For more information on helping victims of the U=2E= S=2EK                         attacks, visit </font><a href=3D"http://www=2Ehelp= K ing=2Eorg" target=3D"new"><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF= K ">Helping=2Eorg</font></a><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF=  ">=2E</font></p>K                         <p><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FF= K 0000">=95</font></b><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF">&nbs=  p;K                         To donate to World Vision's American Families Assi=  stanceM                         Fund, </font><a href=3D"https://www=2Eworldvision=2E= K org/worldvision/sgappeal=2Ensf/sgacardamrelief2?OpenForm&amp;bannerid=3D10= I 6" target=3D"new"><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#FFFFFF">click K                         here</font></a><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2" col=  or=3D"#FFFFFF">=2EM                         Or call <b>1-888-511-6593</b>=2E</font><font face=3D= - "Arial" color=3D"white"><font size=3D"2"><br> *                         </font></font></p>                         </td>                      </tr>                    </tbody>                 </table>"                 <!--Blip 3 Ends-->               </td> K               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"280" bgColor=3D"#ffffff"><!--Bli= 
 p 4 Starts--> K                 <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" width=3D"280" b=  order=3D"0">                   <tbody>                      <tr>                      =20                 <td>&nbsp;</td> 7                       <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"256"> L                         <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" width=3D= "386" border=3D"0"> !                           <tbody>                               <tr>?                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"386"> K                                 <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0"=   width=3D"387" border=3D"0">)                                   <tbody> (                                     <tr>K                                       <td width=3D"385"><img height=3D"10"= K  src=3D"cid:191692001961520709211665513@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Eco=  m"></td>)                                     </tr> (                                     <tr>G                                       <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"385"> ,                                         <dl>@                                           <div align=3D"center">4                                             <center>K                                             <dt><font face=3D"Arial" color= # =3D"#ff0000" size=3D"5"><b>Disaster K                                               Information Resources&nbsp;<=  /b></font></dt> 5                                             </center> 0                                           </div>@                                           <div align=3D"center">4                                             <center>K                                             <dt><font face=3D"Arial" color=  =3D"#ff0000" size=3D"5"><b>andK                                               How You Can Help</b></font><=  /dt>5                                             </center> 0                                           </div>-                                         </dl> +                                       </td> )                                     </tr> (                                     <tr>K                                       <td width=3D"385"><img height=3D"2" = K src=3D"cid:157242001961520709371665529@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom=  "></td> )                                     </tr> (                                     <tr>8                                       <td width=3D"385">K                                         <p align=3D"center"><font face=3D"=  Arial" size=3D"3">FromK                                         looking for loved ones, donating b=  lood to providing tips andK                                         info to the FBI, here are resource=  s that>                                         may help=2E</font></p>+                                       </td> )                                     </tr> *                                   </tbody>(                                 </table>"                                =20L                         <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" width=3D= "402" border=3D"0"> $                           <tbody>=20!                           <tr>=20 K                             <td width=3D"400"><img height=3D"10" src=3D"ci= H d:114782001961520709371665538@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom"></td>                           </tr> !                           <tr>=20 @                             <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"400">=20%                               <dl>=20 K                                 <dt><font color=3D"#FF0000" face=3D"Arial"= 
 ><b>How=20>                                   you can help</b></font></dt>K                                 <dt><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"> To do=  nate blood,=20K                                   call the <b>Red Cross</b> at 1-800-GIVE-=  LIFE=20 K                                   or America's Blood Centers at 1-888-BLOO=  D-88=20 K                                   to schedule an appointment=2E To find yo=  ur local=20 K                                   American Red Cross, <a href=3D"http://ww= / w=2Eredcross=2Eorg/where/where=2Ehtml">click=20 :                                   here</a>=2E </font></dt>*                                 <dd> </dd>C                                 <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">=20 K                                 <dt>To <a href=3D"http://www=2Eredcross=2E= # org/donate/donate=2Ehtml">donate=20 K                                   money</a> to the Red Cross for assisting=   victims=20 K                                   of the attacks, call 1-800-HELP-NOW=2E</=  dt> /                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd> K                                 <dt>To donate to the <b>United Way </b>fun=  d to=20 K                                   help the victims of Tuesday's attacks an= 
 d their=204                                   families, call<br>K                                   (212) 251-4035 or <a href=3D"https://www= - =2Euwnyc=2Ecom/epledge/sept11=2Ecfm">click=20 2                                   here=2E</a></dt>/                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd> K                                 <dt>Find a wide range of information and p=  hone=20 K                                   numbers at <b><a href=3D"http://www=2Efi=0K rstgov=2Egov/featured/usgresponse=2Ehtml">FirstGov</a></b><a href=3D"http:=f< //www=2Efirstgov=2Egov/featured/usgresponse=2Ehtml">,</a>=20K                                   the official US government Web site=2E</=  dt>n,                                 </font></dl>K                               <p> <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"><font si=d> ze=3D"2"><b><a href=3D"http://www=2Emercycorps=2Eorg">Mercy=20K                                 Corps</a></b> <a href=3D"http://www=2Emerc=i ycorps=2Eorg">=20nK                                 </a> is providing trauma counseling and sc=h holarship=20L                                 funds for children who have lost parents=2E=
 </font>=20*                                 </font>=20K                               <dl> <font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#ff0000">=t =20h@                                 <dt><b> Find Loved Ones</b></dt>*                                 </font>=20K                                 <dt><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"><b>Imp=e ortant Numbers<br>K                                   </b>Hotline for families seeking informa=s tion=20 B                                   about victims and survivors:<br>C                                   <b>1-800-331-0075</b></font></dt>T)                                 <dd></dd>rC                                 <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">=20m9                                 <dt>American Airlines<br>n<                                   <b>1-800-245-0999</b></dt>/                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd>d7                                 <dt>United Airlines<br> <                                   <b>1-800-932-8555</b></dt>,                                 </font></dl>A                               <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">=20-K                               <p><b><a href=3D"http://www=2Egnyha=2Eorg/">=,
 Greater NY=20:K                                 Health Organization</a></b> is helping to = 	 locate=20 K                                 family members and accepting reports of mi=  ssing=20.                                 persons=2E<br>K                                 - status of family members: <b>212-560-273= 	 0</b><br>wK                                 - to report a missing person: <b>212-560-8=e 029</b></p> K                               <p><strong>The Pentagon</strong> has asked p=a ersonnel=20aK                                 to call the following numbers to be accoun=w ted=20(                                 for:<br>K                                 - Navy &amp; Marine Personnel: <b>877-663-=n 6772</b><br>I                                 - Army Personnel: <b>800-984-8523</b></p>0K                               <p>Family members of military personnel seek=E ing=20K                                 information should call&nbsp; <b>1-800-984=p -8523</b>=20K                                 (Army), <b>1-877-663-6772</b> (Navy and Ma=t rine=20iK                                 Corps=2E), <b>1-800-253-9276</b> (Air Forc=u	 e)=2E</p>e(                               </font>=20F                               <dl> <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">=20K                                 <dt><font color=3D"#000000">If you are in =t	 one of=205K                                   the attack areas and in need of assistan=n ce,=20K                                   contact FEMA at <b>1-800-426-9029</b></f=e	 ont></dt>D/                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd>aK                                 <dt> <font color=3D"#000000">The Justice D=d epartment=92s=20K                                   Office of Victims of Crime established a=   hotline=20 K                                   for families seeking information about v=c	 ictims=20/K                                   and survivors=2E The number is <b>1-800-=p 331-0075</b>=2E</font>=203%                                 </dt> /                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd>nK                                 <dt><font color=3D"#000000">Officials at t=  he Pentagon=20K                                   are asking Army personnel assigned to th="
 e Pentagon=20eK                                   on Sept=2E 11 (or families trying to loc=u ate their=20K                                   loved ones) to call <b>1-800-984-8523</b=  > or=20/K                                   <b>703-428-0002</b>=2E Navy and Marine p== ersonnel=20oK                                   assigned to the Pentagon should call <b>=  1-877-663-6772</b>=2E</font>=20 %                                 </dt>e/                                 <dd>&nbsp;</dd> K                                 <dt><font color=3D"#000000">Morgan Stanley=2
  has an=20K                                   emergency contact phone number=2E Employ=L
 ees and=20K                                   their families can call <b>1-888-883-439=" 1</b>=2E</font>=20%                                 </dt>F,                                 </font></dl>A                               <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">=20FK                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">Cantor Fitzgerald=g
  Inc=2E=20K                                 has an emergency contact phone number=2E E=  mployees=206K                                 and their families can call <b>203-662-360=t 0</b>=2E</font>=20K                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">Aon asks families=/
  of its=20K                                 1,100 employees who worked in World Trade = 	 Center=20#K                                 Tower 2 to call <b>1-866-256-4154</b>=2E</=d font>=20K                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">FirstGov has a co=i mprehensive=20K                                 list of U=2ES=2E government resources and == information=20K                                 at <a href=3D"http://www=2Efirstgov=2Egov/=hK featured/usgresponse=2Ehtml" target=3D"new">http://www=2Efirstgov=2Egov/fe=a' atured/usgresponse=2Ehtml</a></font>=20eK                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">Windows on the Wo=9 rld restaurant=20iK                                 is trying to locate its employees and give=g  information=20;K                                 to families; the number for Windows on the= 	  World=20tC                                 is <b>877-226-5170</b>=2E</font>=20tK                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">PictureTel and it=u
 s partners=20)K                                 are offering free videoconferencing for co=i mmunication=20K                                 with distant family members, or to aid in =  the=20K                                 business crisis planning process=2E A data="
 base of=20K                                 available facilities is available at <a hr=>K ef=3D"http://www=2Epicturetel=2Ecom/aboutus=2Easp?name=3Dabthh=2Exml" targ= ; et=3D"new">http://www=2Epicturetel=2Ecom/aboutus=2Easp?<br>=C                                 name=3Dabthh=2Exml</a>=2E</font>=20 K                               <p><font color=3D"#000000">Web sites are ava=D	 ilable=20 K                                 for people who still haven't been able to =e
 contact=20K                                 their family members: <a href=3D"http://ok= H ay=2Eprodigy=2Enet/" target=3D"new">http://okay=2Eprodigy=2Enet/</a>,=20K                                 <a href=3D"http://www=2Eviexpo=2Ecom/dmste=lK st/america=2Ehtml" target=3D"new">http://www=2Eviexpo=2Ecom/dmstest/americ=h a=2Ehtml</a>,=20K                                 <a href=3D"http://safe=2Emillennium=2Eberk=aM eley=2Eedu/find=2Ephp" target=3D"new">http://safe=2Emillennium=2Eberkeley=2E=> edu/find=2Ephp</a>,=20K                                 <a href=3D"http://www=2Ebostoncoop=2Enet:8= K 080/SeptEleven?PersonalStatus" target=3D"new">http://www=2Ebostoncoop=2Ene=0 t:8080/SeptEleven?<br><                                 PersonalStatus</a></font>=20K                               <p> American Airlines at 1-800-245-0999, or&= 	 nbsp;<br>aE                                 United Airlines at 1-800-932-8555<br>oK                                 &nbsp;If you believe you have a family mem=  ber=203                                 who was aboard:<br>aK                                 -- American Airlines Flight 11, a Boeing 7=/ 67 en=20K                                 route from Boston to Los Angeles with 81 p=E
 assengers,=20eI                                 nine flight attendants and two pilots<br>"K                                 -- American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 7=y 57 operating=20EK                                 from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles with=   58=20K                                 passengers, four flight attendants and two=D  pilots&nbsp;<br> K                                 -- United Flight 93, a Boeing 757 aircraft= 
 , departed=20 K                                 from Newark, NJ, at 8:01 a=2Em=2E local ti=/ me, bound=20K                                 for San Francisco, with 38 passengers onbo=D ard,=20sG                                 2 pilots and 5 flight attendants=2E<br> K                                 -- United Flight 175, a Boeing 767 aircraf=D t, departed=20K                                 from Boston at 7:58 a=2Em=2E local time, b=< ound for=203K                                 Los Angeles, with 56 passengers onboard, 2="
  pilots=20D                                 and 7 flight attendants=2E&nbsp;<br>$                                 <br>K                                 United also has established its internatio=  nal=20K                                 toll-free numbers for friends or family me=  mbers=20K                                 who want more information=2E Those numbers=3	  are:<br>zC                                 -- The Netherlands: 02-050-4051<br>e>                                 -- Germany: 06-96-698-5407<br>9                                 -- Italy: 02-482-9813<br>e;                                 -- Belgium: 02-713-3646<br>2B                                 -- France: 01-6-919-9659&nbsp;<br>$                                 <br>K                                 World Trade Center Company Information&nbs=o p;<br>@                                 -- AON: 1-866-256-4154&nbsp;<br>F                                 -- Bank of America: 1-877-441-3723<br>K                                 -- Cantor Fitzgerald and eSpeed: 1-866-326=f	 -3188<br>/C                                 -- Carr Futures: 1-800-755-7620<br>fB                                 -- Deutsche Bank: 410-895-2029<br>K                                 -- Electronics Trading Group: 917-859-7059=a  or=200                                 917-682-9827<br>K                                 -- Empire Blue Cross/Blue Shield: 1-866-76=D
 1-8265<br>K                                 -- Fiduciary Trust Co=2E International: 1-=> 800-632-2350,=200                                 ext=2E 22578<br>G                                 -- Fuji Bank: 1-888-537-FUJI (3854)<br>lK                                 -- Keefe Bruyette &amp; Woods: 1-800-223-3=" 810<br>lK                                 -- Kemper Insurance Co=2E: 1-800-622-9966<=3 br>cG                                 -- Lee Hecht Harrison: 201-782-3704<br>yK                                 -- Marsh &amp; McLennan (includes related =n
 businesses=20 K                                 of Mercer, Guy Carpenter, Seabury &amp; Sm=  ith=20K                                 and MMC Enterprise Risk): 212-345-6000<br>=   K                                 -- Maxcor Financial Group: 212-317-1000<br=  > E                                 -- Morgan Stanley: 1-888-883-4391<br> C                                 -- Pitney Bowes: 1-800-932-3631<br>=K                                 -- Thacher, Proffitt, &amp; Wood: 1- 800-6=  98-4567&nbsp;<br> K                                 -- Port Authority of New York and New Jers=c ey employees=209K                                 can call 973-565-5505, 5506 or 5507, but n= 	 ot for=20 :                                 transit information=2E<br>K                                 -- Red Cross WTC Victim Information: 212-6=  04-7285<br> K                                 -- N=2EY=2EC=2E Fire Department and EMT Em=a ployees: 718-999-2541<br> K                                 -- N=2EY=2EC=2E Police Department Employee=  s: 718-677-8238<br>a$                                 <br>K                                 -- The Pentagon has asked personnel to cal=o l the=20K                                 following number to be accounted for:&nbsp=e ;<br> 2                                 1-877-663-6772<br>K                                 To check on the status of loved ones who w=  orked=20K                                 at the Pentagon, please use the following => numbers:<br>8                                 Army: 1-800-984-8523<br>=                                 Air Force: 1-800-253-9276<br><D                                 Navy and Marines: 1-877-663-6772<br>$                                 <br>K                                 -- Justice Department: Families of victims=   may=20 K                                 Call the Office of Victims of Crime about =  services=20 K                                 for survivors and their rights: 1-800-331-=D 0075&nbsp;<br>$                                 <br>K                                 -- American Red Cross: 1-888-BLOOD88 (1-88=  8-256-6388)<br> K                                 In New York City, for more details on avai=t lable=20?                                 donor locations, call&nbsp;<br>nK                                 1-800-448-3543 (GIVE-LIFE), 1-800-933-2566=   or=20K                                 visit: <a href=3D"http://www=2Enybloodcent= . er=2Eorg">http://www=2Enybloodcenter=2Eorg<br>K                                 </a>-- Federal Employees: The Office of Pe=/
 rsonnel=20K                                 Management has asked employees to call<br>=r  K                                 202-606-1800 for updates on office closing=  s=2E<br>F                                 -- Locate Local Red Cross Chapters<br>K                                 -- America's Blood Centers: How to Donate<=  br> K                                 -- WebMD: Answering Your Questions About D= 
 onating=20)                                 Blood</p>:*                               </font></td>                           </tr>                            <tr>K                             <td width=3D"400"><b><font face=3D"Arial" colo="K r=3D"#FF0033" size=3D"2">Tips</font></b><font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"><b=  r>K                               The FBI has set up a Web site and hotline wh=  ere=20K                               people can report tips or other information =  about=20K                               the attacks: <a href=3D"http://www=2Eifccfbi= 2 =2Egov/" target=3D"new">www=2Eifccfbi=2Egov</a>=20)                               and <b><br> K                               1-866-483-5137</b>=2E Intelligence officials=   have=20K                               said they were especially eager to recover a=  ny video=20 K                               that tourists may have been shooting before =h and=20@                               during the attacks=2E </font></td>                           </tr> 0                           <tr valign=3D"top">=20K                             <td width=3D"400"><img height=3D"2" src=3D"cid=fF :293582001961520709531665716@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom"><br>(                               <i><b><br>K                               <font face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">Please do no= 
 t reply=20K                               to this email=2E If you wish to be removed f=>
 rom our=20K                               mailing list, please go to <a href=3D"http:/= K /removerequest=2Enetfirms=2Ecom" target=3D"_blank">http://removerequest=2E=t netfirms=2Ecom=2E=206                               </a></font></b></i> <br>"                               <br>K                               <font size=3D"2"><b><i><font face=3D"Arial, =" Helvetica, sans-serif">Any=20 K                               questions regarding this email or CollegeJob=d board=2Ecom=204                               shoud be sent to: <br>K                               <a href=3D"mailto:questions@independentjobbo==I ardreps=2Ezzn=2Ecom">questions@independentjobboardreps=2Ezzn=2Ecom</a>=20>;                               </font> </i></b></font> </td>s                           </tr> %                           </tbody>=20                           </table>#                               </td>t!                             </tr> "                           </tbody>                          </table>                        =20'                   <!--Blip 4 ends-->=20 :                   <p align=3D"center"><!--Blip 5 Starts-->                         </p>                       </td>n                      =20                 <td>&nbsp;</td>                      </tr>h                   </tbody>                 </table>               </td> C               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"146"><!--Blip 8 Starts--> $                 <p align=3D"center">%                 <!--Blip 10 Starts-->d                 </p>K                 <table cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0" width=3D"146" h=n eight=3D"117">                   <tbody>t                     <tr>K                       <td colSpan=3D"3" height=3D"1"><img height=3D"10" sr= K c=3D"cid:269622001961520709531665743@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom">=  </td>                      </tr>0                     <tr>                      =20K                 <td align=3D"left" rowSpan=3D"4" height=3D"179">&nbsp;</td=> >mF                       <td class=3D"class1" width=3D"115" height=3D"1">K                         <p align=3D"center"><b><font color=3D"#FFFFFF" fac= + e=3D"Arial" size=3D"3">Resources</font></b>                        </td><                      =20<                 <td rowSpan=3D"4" height=3D"179">&nbsp;</td>                     </tr>                      <tr>K                       <td colSpan=3D"2" height=3D"8"><img height=3D"6" src=aK =3D"cid:244642001961520709531665753@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom"><=  /td>                     </tr><                     <tr>7                       <td width=3D"115" height=3D"172">dL                         <table cellSpacing=3D"1" cellPadding=3D"1" width=3D= "115">!                           <tbody>t                              <tr>L                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"5"><font color=3D=  "#ff0033"><b>=B7</b></font></td>K                               <td width=3D"110"><a href=3D"http://www=2Ecn= K n=2Ecom/SPECIALS/2001/trade=2Ecenter/victims/main=2Ehtml"><font size=3D"2"=o%  face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#FFFFFF">CNN ?                                 List of Victims</font></a></td>m!                             </tr>                               <tr>L                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"5"><font color=3D=  "#ff0033"><b>=B7</b></font></td>K                               <td width=3D"110"><u><font color=3D"#FFFFFF"=u  size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">MSNK                                 </font><a class=3D"class14" href=3D"http:/=vK /go=2Emsn=2Ecom/ae/specials/2=2Easp?target=3Dhttp://www=2Emsnbc=2Ecom/news=-K /628019=2Easp?pne=3Dmsn"><font color=3D"#FFFFFF" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"=  >List >                                 of Victims</font></a></u></td>!                             </tr>f                              <tr>L                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"5"><font color=3D=  "#ff0033"><b>=B7</b></font></td>M                               <td width=3D"110"><a class=3D"class14" href=3D=DK "http://go=2Emsn=2Ecom/am/specials/2=2Easp?target=3Dhttp://womencentral=2E= L msn=2Ecom/parenting/articles/tragedy=2Easp"><font color=3D"#FFFFFF" size=3D= "2" face=3D"Arial">What A                                 to tell your kids</font></a></td> !                             </tr>s                              <tr>L                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"5"><font color=3D=  "#ff0033"><b>=B7</b></font></td>M                               <td width=3D"110"><a class=3D"class14" href=3D=>K "http://www=2Ecnn=2Ecom"><font color=3D"#FFFFFF" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"=i	 >Complete <                                 CNN coverage</font></a></td>!                             </tr>                               <tr>L                               <td vAlign=3D"top" width=3D"5"><font color=3D=  "#ff0033"><b>=B7</b></font></td>M                               <td width=3D"110"><a class=3D"class14" href=3D= K "http://specials=2Emsn=2Ecom/special/news=2Easp"><font color=3D"#FFFFFF" f= ! ace=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Completet<                                 MSN coverage</font></a></td>!                             </tr>                               <tr>5                               <td colSpan=3D"2"></td>n!                             </tr>2                              <tr>5                               <td colSpan=3D"2"></td>L!                             </tr>                               <tr>K                               <td colSpan=3D"2" valign=3D"middle" align=3D=t	 "center"> "                                =20K                         <p align=3D"center"><img height=3D"10" src=3D"cid:= K 57052001961520709531665802@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS=2Ezzn=2Ecom"><a href=3D==K "http://www=2Emyaffiliateprogram=2Ecom/u/cjb/t=2Easp?id=3D1174" target=3D"=EK _blank"><img src=3D"http://www=2Egeocities=2Ecom/onlinepictures2001/6-12-1= @ 25x125=2Egif" width=3D"125" height=3D"125" border=3D"0"></a></p>#                               </td> !                             </tr> "                           </tbody>                          </table>                       </td>                      </tr>b                   </tbody>                 </table>#                 <!--Blip 10 Ends-->0               </td>i             </tr>            </tbody>         </table>         <!--Footer 1 //-->4         <!--Network Footers Tems and Conditions//-->.         <!--Network Template Sidebar Cell//-->       </td>g	     </tr>h
   </tbody> </table>
 <p>&nbsp;</p>t   </body>e   </html>u  + ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--   ) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8n* Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64  Content-Description: spacer.gifgI Content-Id: <191692001961520709211665513@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>   < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 * Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64t Content-Description: spacer.gif I Content-Id: <157242001961520709371665529@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>   < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 * Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64  Content-Description: spacer.gifsI Content-Id: <114782001961520709371665538@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>?  < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 * Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64  Content-Description: spacer.gifsI Content-Id: <293582001961520709531665716@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>s  < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8h* Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64> Content-Description: spacer.gif I Content-Id: <269622001961520709531665743@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>=  < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8e* Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64t Content-Description: spacer.gif=I Content-Id: <244642001961520709531665753@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>t  < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==) ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C80* Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64o Content-Description: spacer.gif H Content-Id: <57052001961520709531665802@INDEPENDENTJOBBOARDREPS.zzn.com>  < R0lGODlhAQABAID/AP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==+ ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8--l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:56:32 +0200a" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>) Subject: Re: DNPG and HP Network Products ( Message-ID: <9o0mah$5r0$1@news.IAEhv.nl>  D DNPG is a separate company, it had never anything to do with Compaq.I Digital sold the network division to Cabletron one or two years before itrC got itself sold to Compaq. DNPG does have the right to use the name  DIGITAL for two years.A So DNPG and HP have been competing for some time now and the fact < that HP bought Compaq does not change that situation at all.  
 Hans Vlems    9 Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message : news:20010914125152.34913.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com..., What do you imagine about the future of DNPG+ being a concurrent of HP Network Products ?/4 I think it is possibile for us to have HP Networking- hardware in a few months running in Alpha ands Proliant/Netserver machines.     Regardsa   FC   =====e ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazile fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?e) Donate cash, emergency relief information 7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:01:05 -0700d) From: Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>=< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)/ Message-ID: <3BA3A571.89BB88BB@beagle-ears.com>   > [ I have replaced comp.arch with alt.folklore.computers in the=   newsgroups list, and encourage others to do the smae on the4!   other branches of this thread.]    bad bob wrote:B > Lars, Barb, the rest of the crew: how many of you ex deccies canE > recall sitting in the coffee sessions and having folks come up with2= > designs that turned into tools and products? Sitting in the;E > cafeteria, at a blackboard/whiteboard (when they came out)? Sitting E > in one of the bars having a hamburger and then running back to work  > to crank out the code?  C Bob, I was never at DEC. My work with RSX-11M was at A/S DATALOG FPeA in Copenhagen, Denmark from 1975 to 1980, then at ACC (Associated @ Computer Consultants, later Advanced Computer Communications) in? Santa Barbara, California. At ACC, the work slowly drifted from ? 11M to VMS and BSD Unix. The remarkable thing about RSX-11M and B VMS was that the code was good enough to ship to customers to work? with. The original coders knew that a couple of thousand people @ around the world would read their code, and they made sure that ? they would not be embarrased by such scrutiny. As a result, theCB code was in much better shape before shipping than most commercial@ code today; it also got the external review and feedback that we8 now associate with Linux and other open source projects.  ? As for the "we eat drink and sleep this stuff" attitude: I have = experienced that in several of the places that I have worked.2@ (In a 31 year career, I have only worked in 5 companies so far.)> Indeed at ACC, 5-8 people at the core of the engineering team > walked from the offices on Cota Street or Santa Barbara Street: to the restaurant district on State Street to eat together? every single day. I miss that. Those lunches were a big part ofe what made us a team.  A > I saw this all the time. I saw hardware designs change when one2A > of the crew would say "if you did it this way I could save codee@ > on the ISR...." or " If you did it this way, my code could fit > into a one page driver."  = VAX/VMS was like that all the way through. I can only imagine : what it must have felt like, for Cutler to go from DEC to 
 Microsoft.  hB > There were some truly brilliant coders and there there were some@ > really competent coders who would have been superstars in just > about any other environment.  : Would you believe that there are pockets of that, even in - Microsoft? But it is not THE company culture.6 -- 4B / Lars Poulsen - http://www.beagle-ears.com - lars@beagle-ears.comB   125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:25:25 GMT3' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>b< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)0 Message-ID: <3BA3CB7B.84F27B3B@bellatlantic.net>   Lars Poulsen wrote:u > @ > [ I have replaced comp.arch with alt.folklore.computers in the? >   newsgroups list, and encourage others to do the smae on theo# >   other branches of this thread.]r >  > bad bob wrote:D > > Lars, Barb, the rest of the crew: how many of you ex deccies canG > > recall sitting in the coffee sessions and having folks come up with ? > > designs that turned into tools and products? Sitting in the G > > cafeteria, at a blackboard/whiteboard (when they came out)? Sitting G > > in one of the bars having a hamburger and then running back to workm > > to crank out the code? > E > Bob, I was never at DEC. My work with RSX-11M was at A/S DATALOG FPmC > in Copenhagen, Denmark from 1975 to 1980, then at ACC (AssociatedrB > Computer Consultants, later Advanced Computer Communications) inA > Santa Barbara, California. At ACC, the work slowly drifted from A > 11M to VMS and BSD Unix. The remarkable thing about RSX-11M and D > VMS was that the code was good enough to ship to customers to workA > with. The original coders knew that a couple of thousand people A > around the world would read their code, and they made sure that5A > they would not be embarrased by such scrutiny. As a result, thepD > code was in much better shape before shipping than most commercialB > code today; it also got the external review and feedback that we: > now associate with Linux and other open source projects. Lars,hB I know wher ya worked, we worked together on a couple of projects.B There was this gentleman that you worked with who out weighed both@ of us, at least when we were in the columbia office.  Sorry Ron,1 I think I caught up now.  Back IF370 days I mean.s? That said, Yes, the team that worked on RSX, and imho RT, were D? rather good.  Some of them cut their teeth on PDP8 coding, and  ? knew the power of assembler...I know how much testing the code <? went thru, a lot of if was tested right in my lab on 1=2 in the A mill.  I got to work with a few folks and show them how a twistedD7 mind could misunderstand the installation instructions.f > A > As for the "we eat drink and sleep this stuff" attitude: I haveh? > experienced that in several of the places that I have worked. B > (In a 31 year career, I have only worked in 5 companies so far.)? > Indeed at ACC, 5-8 people at the core of the engineering teamp@ > walked from the offices on Cota Street or Santa Barbara Street< > to the restaurant district on State Street to eat togetherA > every single day. I miss that. Those lunches were a big part ofh > what made us a team.@ Exactly right imho, sure there were egos but really this was all; what we called hacking.  DECUS, Hacking, customer developede@ enhancements, features solicited from customers, features rolledB in and supported, customers being hired into to drive the product,D customers making sure the products solved real problems, a different$ culture than some places have today. > C > > I saw this all the time. I saw hardware designs change when one2C > > of the crew would say "if you did it this way I could save code B > > on the ISR...." or " If you did it this way, my code could fit > > into a one page driver." > ? > VAX/VMS was like that all the way through. I can only imagine0; > what it must have felt like, for Cutler to go from DEC to  > Microsoft.; I had left before that, the culture of dec had changed.  I /? actually like Gordon Bell when he first came back but our views ? did not always coincide or agree.  As Barb (BAH) said in one of>? her notes, the market was big enough for more than one product.=, Still is but I won't start that debate here. > D > > There were some truly brilliant coders and there there were someB > > really competent coders who would have been superstars in just  > > about any other environment. > ; > Would you believe that there are pockets of that, even inE/ > Microsoft? But it is not THE company culture.mB Yes, I do believe that.  Just as there are these pockets in intel,> amd, ibm, and other places.  I won't get all hokey and divergeD a thread on that subject.  Seems to me tho that some of the conceptsC of multics, tops, vms, and more are influencing some of the BSD and  Linux efforts.   bob, who used to work for GB.> > --D > / Lars Poulsen - http://www.beagle-ears.com - lars@beagle-ears.comD >   125 South Ontare Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 - +1-805-569-5277   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:33:06 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit( Message-ID: <9o06qf$9gp$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message) news:3BA399CB.5EF898A@bellatlantic.net...    ...   G > The reason for the crospost continuation on this thread, imho, is theaG > interesting bits in the stratus architecture.  Tandem, dec, IBM, iirc A > pyramid, and many others, have done interesting to me things totD > attempt to achieve fault tolerant systems that really had the goal9 > 100% perceived availability and many nines reliability.  >/@ > If we look at the soft failover things, like clustering (imho)F > offerings, do they really achieve the perception of 100% availblity?  K Yes, if a delay of from a few seconds to about a minute (depending on whose3E version of clustering you use) when a node fails can be considered tooH satisfy that definition (and that delay could be brought down to under a5 second without significant change to the technology).   H But they don't in general offer the same level of *reliability*, becauseH they don't guard against undetected hardware faults that allow a node toG continue running but produce incorrect results.  The Stratus and Tandem6F approaches, which compare the results generated by replicated hardwareJ before allowing them to become externally visible, do protect against such faults."   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:43:19 GMT=( From: jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier)@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit2 Message-ID: <bjNo7.677$O6.1621@grover.nit.gwu.edu>  / In article <3BA399CB.5EF898A@bellatlantic.net>, ) bad bob  <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote::E >What were Stratus's roots? I seem to recall a bunch of deccies going>E >there, I seem to recall some apollo crew going there BUT I too might  >be suffering from CRS.o  & www.multicians.org/Tom Van Vleck says:  F "Stratus's VOS operating system shows a strong Multics influence. Bob I Freiburghouse, former Multics languages manager, was one of the founders 7I of Stratus; many Multicians are still Stratus employees. (Stratus is now c called Stratus Technologies.)"  J I seem to remember some Pr1mates winding up at Stratus but I don't know if that was a major trend.E     		Yours Truly, 		Jeffrey Boulierh -- / Community Source & Support   ------=>Prometheus<=------   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:44:32 GMT ( From: jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier)@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit2 Message-ID: <kkNo7.678$O6.1482@grover.nit.gwu.edu>  ) In article <usndoic9e.fsf@earthlink.net>,=- Anne & Lynn Wheeler  <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: D >wasn't HP also trying to sell sequoia ft in the early '90s. ibm was9 >marketing s/88 during this period ... a logo'ed stratus.     H Forgot about the s/88. I've heard about them, but know next to nothing. # What operating system did they run?    			Yours Truly,  			Jeffrey Boulier -- / Community Source & Support   ------=>Prometheus<=------   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:31:17 GMTd+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <un13wi74r.fsf@earthlink.net>n  * jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier) writes: > J > Forgot about the s/88. I've heard about them, but know next to nothing. % > What operating system did they run?/  R it was a straight stratus system that had been logo'ed by ibm and called the s/88.  @ i believe there were some issues with stratus (& other) salesmenC competing with ibm salesman for the same customers with essentiallyeE the same machine ... and then whether it was a "stratus" machine that"? went in or a "s/88" machine that went in and which salesmen got  credit.    -- SH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:37:40 GMT/+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <uiteki6u4.fsf@earthlink.net>   ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:    > J > But they don't in general offer the same level of *reliability*, becauseJ > they don't guard against undetected hardware faults that allow a node toI > continue running but produce incorrect results.  The Stratus and TandemDH > approaches, which compare the results generated by replicated hardwareL > before allowing them to become externally visible, do protect against such	 > faults.i >s  F however, at the time we were doing ha/cmp and talking to the people atD 1-800 number system, stratus (& s/88) boxes still required scheduledD system downtime for system maint. ... and the 1-800 number system isA spec'ed at 5-nines availability (which stratus/s/88 couldn't meet < ... one system maint.  period exceeded several years allowed
 downtime).  D the status/s/88 approach was then to cluster (i.e. two) the machines> ...  but then there was essentially no measurable availabilityE difference between a stratus cluster & a ha/cmp cluster ... but there   was significant cost difference.  
 misc. ref:/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmpp   random refs:Q http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#20 Is Al Gore The Father of the Internet?^9^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs)O http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#56 Need explaination of PKI and Kerberos5d http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'   --F Anne & Lynn Wheeler  | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:07:24 GMTP' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>=@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit0 Message-ID: <3BA3C74A.6EA6D7AE@bellatlantic.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message+ > news:3BA399CB.5EF898A@bellatlantic.net...G >  > .../ > I > > The reason for the crospost continuation on this thread, imho, is the3I > > interesting bits in the stratus architecture.  Tandem, dec, IBM, iircdC > > pyramid, and many others, have done interesting to me things to1F > > attempt to achieve fault tolerant systems that really had the goal; > > 100% perceived availability and many nines reliability.t > >5B > > If we look at the soft failover things, like clustering (imho)H > > offerings, do they really achieve the perception of 100% availblity? > M > Yes, if a delay of from a few seconds to about a minute (depending on whoseBG > version of clustering you use) when a node fails can be considered to5J > satisfy that definition (and that delay could be brought down to under a7 > second without significant change to the technology).  > J > But they don't in general offer the same level of *reliability*, becauseJ > they don't guard against undetected hardware faults that allow a node toI > continue running but produce incorrect results.  The Stratus and TandemtH > approaches, which compare the results generated by replicated hardwareL > before allowing them to become externally visible, do protect against such	 > faults.w   Thanks Bill,B Exactly, That is what I recall of tandem - the hardware detection F capability - and that is something folks seem to have gotten away fromD since the apollow program.  Yeah, the shuttle stuff is good but the G approach to detecting or what is the right word, intuiting maybe, that aF something is wrong with the hw is a feature that seems to be gone fromD the new servers - Qs, Decs, Suns, and so on.  Might be time for thatG technology to come back or hopefully to evolve.  Telco, mabell, used tow! try to do stuff like that, but...c bobi >  > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:10:56 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>f@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit( Message-ID: <9o0n3f$j9d$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message* news:3BA3C74A.6EA6D7AE@bellatlantic.net...   ...b   > Thanks Bill,C > Exactly, That is what I recall of tandem - the hardware detectionaH > capability - and that is something folks seem to have gotten away fromE > since the apollow program.  Yeah, the shuttle stuff is good but theoH > approach to detecting or what is the right word, intuiting maybe, thatH > something is wrong with the hw is a feature that seems to be gone fromF > the new servers - Qs, Decs, Suns, and so on.  Might be time for thatI > technology to come back or hopefully to evolve.  Telco, mabell, used to-# > try to do stuff like that, but...1  J As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of *planned*H down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantD approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supportsF 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundantH systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with today's hardware.   G It wouldn't seem unreasonable, given the decreasing cost of hardware in G general and the increasing concern with the amount of power it uses, to?G consider developing systems that have sufficient internal *checking* to L ensure that they will be 'fail-stop' in nature (i.e., that any fault will beF noticed and result in stopping the system before it becomes externallyK visible).  This can be done with minimal additional circuitry compared with E what is required to replicate the entire system and check its outputs J (actually, you need at least three identical functioning systems, since ifK two didn't agree you wouldn't know which was wrong; one of Tandem's systemsMJ uses this approach, while Stratus's - and maybe another of Tandem's - usesI quad redundancy because implementing it is simpler).  Parity (or, better,uG ECC) memory is an example of this approach used in a single sub-system.d  K Clustering two such systems together would obtain the benefits of clusteredpI FT nodes using only 1/4 to 1/3 as much hardware (and, presumably, power).eD Given the assembly complexity of triple- and quad-redundant hardwareI designs, it would likely be considerably cheaper as well - as long as thee@ up-front design costs could be amortized over sufficient volume.   - bill   > boba > >l
 > > - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 01:14:15 GMTe' From: bad bob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>t@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit0 Message-ID: <3BA40126.8ABD7D7F@bellatlantic.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message, > news:3BA3C74A.6EA6D7AE@bellatlantic.net... >  > ...  >  > > Thanks Bill,E > > Exactly, That is what I recall of tandem - the hardware detectionoJ > > capability - and that is something folks seem to have gotten away fromG > > since the apollow program.  Yeah, the shuttle stuff is good but the J > > approach to detecting or what is the right word, intuiting maybe, thatJ > > something is wrong with the hw is a feature that seems to be gone fromH > > the new servers - Qs, Decs, Suns, and so on.  Might be time for thatK > > technology to come back or hopefully to evolve.  Telco, mabell, used to % > > try to do stuff like that, but...a > L > As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of *planned*J > down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantF > approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supportsH > 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundantJ > systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with > today's hardware.p > I > It wouldn't seem unreasonable, given the decreasing cost of hardware incI > general and the increasing concern with the amount of power it uses, to I > consider developing systems that have sufficient internal *checking* to N > ensure that they will be 'fail-stop' in nature (i.e., that any fault will beH > noticed and result in stopping the system before it becomes externallyM > visible).  This can be done with minimal additional circuitry compared with G > what is required to replicate the entire system and check its outputs L > (actually, you need at least three identical functioning systems, since ifM > two didn't agree you wouldn't know which was wrong; one of Tandem's systemsAL > uses this approach, while Stratus's - and maybe another of Tandem's - usesK > quad redundancy because implementing it is simpler).  Parity (or, better,oI > ECC) memory is an example of this approach used in a single sub-system.t > M > Clustering two such systems together would obtain the benefits of clusterednK > FT nodes using only 1/4 to 1/3 as much hardware (and, presumably, power).eF > Given the assembly complexity of triple- and quad-redundant hardwareK > designs, it would likely be considerably cheaper as well - as long as themB > up-front design costs could be amortized over sufficient volume.A All of your points are well stated, Yeah clustering provides the oE perception of availablity.  BUT if there is a need for an FT, such asfC tandem, what would be required to do this at the chip level?  The 3gH sysetm approach, as used in the shuttle, as used in an HSC cluster, and + so on, is a decent approach but has limits.    bob      >  > - bill >  > > bobo > > >  > > > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:53:18 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>w@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit( Message-ID: <9o144d$r53$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message* news:3BA40126.8ABD7D7F@bellatlantic.net...   ...f  B > All of your points are well stated, Yeah clustering provides theG > perception of availablity.  BUT if there is a need for an FT, such asIE > tandem, what would be required to do this at the chip level?  The 3dI > sysetm approach, as used in the shuttle, as used in an HSC cluster, and - > so on, is a decent approach but has limits.   L Triple-modular redundancy ('TMR' - the Tandem 'Integrity' platform approach,E which is operationally similar to the 'pair and spare' quad-redundant.J approach used by Stratus) really has little in common with VMS clustering, HSC or otherwise.C  E TMR guards against subtle and pernicious (as well as simple) hardwareuK failure by doing every operation in each of three separate motherboards (orvH equivalent), comparing the results, and voting out any single board thatG disagrees with the other two.  This gives absolutely non-stop operationtJ across hardware faults and board replacement (at least those on one of theJ boards; interconnect and storage topologies typically use other mechanismsG that may or may not be equally capable of tolerating Byzantine hardwareAH failures), but doesn't continue through any system upgrade that can't beG applied as a patch to the running system.  In most instances it is alsotK transparent to application code (i.e., any application gets fault-tolerance  'for free').  K ('Byzantine' failures technically involve components that deliberately lie, J but I'll use the term here to describe an otherwise-invisible failure thatF produces an incorrect result - since in this case they're equivalent.)  L VMS-style clustering (and at least to a first approximation other clusteringJ approaches, including fail-over styles) execute each operation in only oneG location.  They are thus susceptible to the kinds of Byzantine hardware?F failures that TMR guards against, but *can* provide continuous serviceI across a full-blown (non-patch) system upgrade as long as the software isaI set up to support such a 'rolling upgrade'.  Making a cluster applicationoI 'non-stop' requires explicit application code (e.g., with a client/server K application, the clients must be able to switch to a different cluster nodeuH if the one serving them fails, though use of transferrable address aliasG mechanisms can make this transparent, and the application must maintain-D enough distributed state for this to occur without loss of context).  L A cluster of (non-TMR) nodes thus tends to have higher *availability* than aJ single TMR node, because the cluster (except for the occasional few-secondD fail-over or VMS 'state transition') *never* stops, even for plannedI maintenance.  A single TMR node, however, has higher *reliability* than aaC cluster of (non-TMR) nodes, because it survives without error thosenK Byzantine hardware faults that would allow the cluster to produce incorrect  results.  J And the two approaches are complementary:  put them together (a cluster ofE TMR nodes) and you get even higher availability (the planned downtimeaL associated with a single TMR node can be avoided, and some multiple failures/ are tolerated), with TMR levels of reliability.e  J What I was suggesting was replacing the TMR approach with board-local (andD chip-local) checks that would provide equivalent guarantees that anyH hardware failure would be noticed immediately so that the board would beC shut down (a 'fail-stop' mechanism) before the failure could do anynK externally-visible damage.  This would require careful analysis of possibledD failures (as contrasted with using the brute-force TMR approach thatL determines failure implicitly by a voting process) to ensure that none couldK sneak through undetected - but in the process would reduce the three boardstG required for TMR (or paired dual boards for pair-and-spare) to a single B board with the detection circuitry on it.  The result (if actuallyH attainable) would be a system with the reliability of TMR but using onlyK 1/3rd or 1/4th the hardware - but with much less availability because there.H is no operational redundancy, just the assurance of fail-stop operation.J However, cluster such systems and you have a platform with the reliabilityL of TMR and the availability of clustering (which is not that much lower thanK the availability of clustered TMR nodes), but using only 1/3rd to 1/4th theV( hardware of a real cluster of TMR nodes.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:50:15 GMTa+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>r@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <un13vyeuj.fsf@earthlink.net>m  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:t   > N > Triple-modular redundancy ('TMR' - the Tandem 'Integrity' platform approach,G > which is operationally similar to the 'pair and spare' quad-redundant-L > approach used by Stratus) really has little in common with VMS clustering, > HSC or otherwise.   E I think that as early as the mid-80s there was something about 90-95+t@ percent of system outages had nothing at all to do with hardwareD failures ... aka non-FT hardware (except maybe in the PC market) was5 becoming significantly more robust (fault tolerant?).n  = issues were becoming things like scheduled downtime, softwareaE failures, operator mistakes, disaster&geographic survivability (termsu) we had coined when we were doing ha/cmp).s  
 misc. ref:/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp/   andn  A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availability on S/390-  J to repeat a quote from the above ... one of the large financial settlementK infrastructures credited the two primary things contributing to them havingr4 100 percent availability for the last six years were   1) ims hot standby 2) automated operation       -- gH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:12:46 GMTa+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>.@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <uitejydt4.fsf@earthlink.net>e  - Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:. >  > 1) ims hot standby > 2) automated operation >   F that should have been "automated operator" (contributing significantlyB to 100 percent availability for the previous six years) ... but in& general, implies automated operations.  @ from past threads ... & slightly related ... that batch paradigmC derived platforms and interactive/online paradigm derived platformsa2 tend to have some amount of different perspective.  D interactive/online paradigm derived platforms frequently assume that@ the computer/program/application is interacting with a human and1 involve implementations based on that assumption.u  C batch paradigm derived platforms tend to not assume that humans arel> involved and also tend to have evolved much more sophisticated< infrastructure for automagically dealing with exceptions and
 anomolies.  E I remember trying to deploy some production web-oriented platforms in F the '95/'96 time-frame and having to deal with little things like whenE space was exausted standard svid unix sort (i.e. interactive paradigmmE derived platform) just continued with output of (truncated) data thatnD it was able to process. there was no obvious programming paradigm toA automagically recognized and recover from filespace full sceneriosB (that is frequently part of many mainframe production operations).   ref:8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#27 Mainframes & Unix  # some disk engineering related refs:l. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk   random refs:w http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#197 Computing As She Really Is. Was: Re: Life-Advancing Work of Timothy Berners-Leeo: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#83 Ux's good points.@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME???J http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#43 Life as a programmer--1960, 1965?D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?   -- 0H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:48:57 GMT&. From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitH Message-ID: <ZaWo7.26499$KV3.2207504@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  4 "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message* news:3BA40126.8ABD7D7F@bellatlantic.net... >. > Bill Todd wrote: > > 8 > > "bad bob" <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message. > > news:3BA3C74A.6EA6D7AE@bellatlantic.net... > >  > > ...  > >h > > > Thanks Bill,G > > > Exactly, That is what I recall of tandem - the hardware detection L > > > capability - and that is something folks seem to have gotten away fromI > > > since the apollow program.  Yeah, the shuttle stuff is good but thelL > > > approach to detecting or what is the right word, intuiting maybe, thatL > > > something is wrong with the hw is a feature that seems to be gone fromJ > > > the new servers - Qs, Decs, Suns, and so on.  Might be time for thatJ > > > technology to come back or hopefully to evolve.  Telco, mabell, used to' > > > try to do stuff like that, but...r > >oD > > As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of	 *planned*aL > > down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantH > > approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supportsJ > > 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundantL > > systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with > > today's hardware.t > >pK > > It wouldn't seem unreasonable, given the decreasing cost of hardware ineK > > general and the increasing concern with the amount of power it uses, tosK > > consider developing systems that have sufficient internal *checking* toeH > > ensure that they will be 'fail-stop' in nature (i.e., that any fault will beiJ > > noticed and result in stopping the system before it becomes externallyJ > > visible).  This can be done with minimal additional circuitry compared withI > > what is required to replicate the entire system and check its outputssK > > (actually, you need at least three identical functioning systems, sinceh ifG > > two didn't agree you wouldn't know which was wrong; one of Tandem's. systems I > > uses this approach, while Stratus's - and maybe another of Tandem's -: usesE > > quad redundancy because implementing it is simpler).  Parity (or,l better,pK > > ECC) memory is an example of this approach used in a single sub-system.  > >bE > > Clustering two such systems together would obtain the benefits ofb	 clustered.E > > FT nodes using only 1/4 to 1/3 as much hardware (and, presumably,a power).eH > > Given the assembly complexity of triple- and quad-redundant hardwareI > > designs, it would likely be considerably cheaper as well - as long as  theoD > > up-front design costs could be amortized over sufficient volume.B > All of your points are well stated, Yeah clustering provides theG > perception of availablity.  BUT if there is a need for an FT, such ashE > tandem, what would be required to do this at the chip level?  The 3TI > sysetm approach, as used in the shuttle, as used in an HSC cluster, andt- > so on, is a decent approach but has limits.c >f  G IBM does something that seems to be almost exactly this in the Z seriesrK servers (previously S/390 and other names).  There have been some papers insE the various IBM journals describing the details.  And of course thesetK systems support clustering under the name of Parallel Sysplex, with lots ofo2 complex variations.  Of course, they aren't cheap!   --  -- Stephen Fuld   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:48:58 GMTo. From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitH Message-ID: <_aWo7.26500$KV3.2206987@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  8 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message# news:un13vyeuj.fsf@earthlink.net...d+ > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:u >d > >eF > > Triple-modular redundancy ('TMR' - the Tandem 'Integrity' platform	 approach,eI > > which is operationally similar to the 'pair and spare' quad-redundantwB > > approach used by Stratus) really has little in common with VMS clustering,  > > HSC or otherwise.n >'G > I think that as early as the mid-80s there was something about 90-95+rB > percent of system outages had nothing at all to do with hardwareF > failures ... aka non-FT hardware (except maybe in the PC market) was7 > becoming significantly more robust (fault tolerant?).a >u? > issues were becoming things like scheduled downtime, softwarexG > failures, operator mistakes, disaster&geographic survivability (termso+ > we had coined when we were doing ha/cmp).   K Jim Gray, when he was at Tandem, did a study on the causes of downtime.  HW C failure was way down the list.  I don't know if the paper is online,L anywhere, but I think I have a paper copy I can try to dig out if people are interested.l   --  -- Stephen Fuld   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:41:51 GMTi. From: "aaron spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net>@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitD Message-ID: <zYWo7.1142$Md5.127452@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9o0n3f$j9d$1@pyrite.mv.net...L > As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of *planned*J > down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantF > approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supportsH > 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundantJ > systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with > today's hardware.  >dL Actually this is incorrect.  While Stratus has some planned downtime issues, Tandem does not.  I Stratus uses Triple Modular Redundancy(TMR) which is basically 3 seperate J processing elements with a majority rules vote.  This gives you both fault2 detection and fault tolerance at a hardware level.  J Tandem on the other hand used Dual Modular Redundancy(DMR) which gives youI fault detection at a hardware level.  They then use a fault isolation andtK tolerance at a software level to acheive a fully fault tolerant system.  IneE effect at the lowest levels, Tandem Himalaya systems are an extremely L tightly integrated cluster of lockstep processor pairs.  On a tandem system,$ you can upgrade hardware on the fly.  F Clustering only gives you fault tolerance, but does not give you faultH detection.  You need additional hardware to get the detection is you areF going to just use detection.  In the current G series 390 systems thisF detection is handled by the cpu effectively having 2 seperate cores in	 lockstep.i  K Tandem has proven to be the #1 system as measures by total uptime(includingiI both planned and unplanned downtime).  Tandem is also extremely scalable,'J quite possible the most scalable system available today.  On the downside,I Tandem does put more responsibility on the software to do the appropriatetJ actions such at checkpointing the progress.  Tandem does however provide a. lot of software infrastructure to enable this.   Aaron Spinku( not speaking for Compaq/HP/Stratus/Intel   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:05:17 +0100-D From: Mr Extraordinary <blissful.confusion@btREMOVETHISinternet.com>, Subject: Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master8 Message-ID: <j497qtc7514ujrlhspm7sv35bbhtctsnoo@4ax.com>  . On 16 Sep 2001 03:15:52 +1200, Christian Garms  <c.garms@paradise.net.nz> wrote:  1 >"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.chinet.com> writes:m >h& >> X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca >  >[x] mail sent to his ISP. >,  % But there's no NNTP server at Chinet!C  E These posts have been injected through a server in Moscow, Sovam.com. + The first two server addresses are spoofed.i  B This is an attack against Adam H. Kerman and an attempt to disrupt Usenet (hipclone sporge).    Examine the received headers.R   Mr X.w   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:27:07 GMTy" From: ahlstromc@home.com (Linonut), Subject: Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master< Message-ID: <fYNo7.16745$xB1.4474395@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  L After takin' a swig o' grog, Christian Garms belched out this bit o' wisdom:  2 > "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.chinet.com> writes: > & >> X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca >  > [x] mail sent to his ISP., > 6 >> I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! > 	 > *plonk*e  4 Ummm, I think Adam H. Kerman will be angry with you.4 Especially since the real posting host isn't the one- associated with the one his ISP assigned him.    Chrisa   -- d: ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****: **********************************************************: ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET **: **********************************************************: *********** We are simple servants of his will ***********   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Sep 2001 16:22:00 +1200/ From: Christian Garms <c.garms@paradise.net.nz>a, Subject: Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master, Message-ID: <m2zo7v22af.fsf@tiger.wgnetz.de>  F Mr Extraordinary <blissful.confusion@btREMOVETHISinternet.com> writes:  G > These posts have been injected through a server in Moscow, Sovam.com.h- > The first two server addresses are spoofed.   = May be or may be not. I don't know. His ISP can check it out.   D > This is an attack against Adam H. Kerman and an attempt to disrupt > Usenet (hipclone sporge).t  C Doesn't matter, it can happen again, so that's why I killfiled him u temporarily.   -- e regards,* 	Christian		mailto:c.garms@paradise.net.nz   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:01:18 -0500-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t/ Subject: Re: ISO Image of Freeware 4 or 5 CD's?o' Message-ID: <3BA3A57E.E2887C13@fsi.net>y   William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > H > Is there anywhere that I could download an image file for these CDs? IA > have a burner on a Unix box but not on my VAX. I've not had anyp > success searching.  H Well, you won't find ISO images - primarly because they're ODS, not ISO;H however, you can get the files therein by FTP - though some file formats may present a challenge.  ( You can start finding URLs by reviewing:  / http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/r   -- e David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:43:49 +0200-, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl> Subject: Re: memory channel,; Message-ID: <3ba3afe6$0$65636$e4fe514c@newszilla.xs4all.nl>a  : "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net> wrote in message@ news:VXLo7.7020$na5.1625389@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net...G > I hope your memory channel configuration includes a hub...  Direct MCr > connection > is a problem.f >t
 > Regards, > Tomt  J Could you explain a little bit more? It's the first time that I have heard of it!  	 Bart Zorno   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:23:39 -0400p' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o068o$90p$1@pyrite.mv.net>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message E news:Pine.LNX.4.10.10109150859080.9309-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu...r   ...q  H > This Hiroshima - Nagasaki garbage gets trotted out by everytime people > feel like attacking the US.t  I Perhaps so.  But it also gets brought up by people legitimately concernedv about the issue.  .   Especially by dis-loyal Americans who chooseH > to live in and enjoy the freedoms provided by the many people who diedK > providing it while not thinking they owe their predecesors or the country  > anything.e  L And also by loyal Americans fully aware of what we owe them but, again, withH legitimate questions about this particular issue.  If you can't tell the: difference, that's your problem rather than anyone else's.  *   Let's put this to rest once and for all.  ? Most unlikely, unless you're interested in changing your views.l   >tJ > As for warnings.  At the time of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a state ofK > war existed between the United States and Japan.  War, especially in thateI > era, involved bombing.  Do you think perhaps the Japanese people didn'tmK > know this??  At the time the Japanese attacked and bombed Hawaii, we weredF > supposedly at peace.  How much warning did they give the civilians??  K How many civilian targets did they waste bombs on?  IIRC, they didn't 'bombeJ Hawaii', they bombed the warships in the harbor and the air facilities.  IJ wouldn't claim that the bombing was pinpoint-accurate and hit nothing of aK non-strategic nature, but I certainly don't recall any claims that they didM so intentionally.t  B Unless you have credible historical evidence to the contrary, yourL comparison above is a poor one:  no one is complaining about our own conductJ in bombing strategic targets, just questioning the use of mass-destruction@ as a legitimate tactic when other good options may have existed.   >u@ > Now, back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Hiroshima was a military
 headquarters,xK > one apparently important enough that Tokyo dispatched a plane to check onoH > the status of it shortly after the bomb was dropped and contact, which must= > have been pretty steadily maintained up til then, was lost.e  F Are you suggesting that they otherwise would just have yawned and kept reading the morning paper?     Sounds to me< > like cowards using their civilian population for a shield.  F Sounds to me like exactly the same reasoning we used in citing our ownL military/industrial installations:  put 'em where it made sense.  Or are youL suggesting that we had no tempting military and/or industrial targets in our own cities?)     As for Nagasaki,F > leaflets were dropped all over Japan warning the people to leave the cities. > that were prime targets for future bombings.  L All over Japan?  In the three days that separated the two bombings?  I don'tI recall hearing about that huge-scale leaflet-dropping mission during that E interval, but even if it took place evacuating many major cities in a K country the size of Japan in a day or so is not exactly practical (assuminglF that the next target date was specified in the first place:  was it?).     Do you think the people ofB > Nagasaki didn't know what they were building in those Mitsubishi factories??eF > That leaves two possibilities.  Either their own government and armyK > prevented them from leaving or the people thought building more torpedoes & > was more important than their lives.  I They clearly didn't have the time to think much at all - even had we beenaK specific about naming the target, which even you don't seem to be claiming.t  &   In either case, you can not say that& > the United States did not warn them.  G If we did not single out Nagasaki specifically, I can say exactly that.rB Especially given that the time they had to react was insufficient.  $   Something unheard of in warfare upI > to that time.  American pilots put themselves at great risk to fly overaH > ahead of time to drop warning leaflets.  I don't remember the Japanese# > doing this to anyone they bombed.   K I don't remember the Japanese fully-destroying any cities, and suspect theypJ would have considered it a waste of effort and materiel (but I'm not a war' historian, so feel free to educate me).i  I I'm ambivalent about the Hiroshima bombing:  while by some accounts Japan:G was on the verge of capitulating anyway, there's enough debate over thenH matter to make it possible that it was justifiable given the informationJ Truman had at the time.  But following three days later with another bomb,K while the Japanese leadership and people were still reeling from the first,i is much harder to justify.   >dL > The United States was not the villian then and we are not the villian now.I > And we will not be the villian when we flatten the people who did this.t  J We will if we do so in a manner that obliterates a lot of other people who had nothing to do with it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:52:15 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>"( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA3A35F.AE54B4A8@fsi.net>r   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > / > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:e >  > >dL > > I read a story recently where a twin-engine recip. was loaded with Jet-A5 > > and the resulting problems - never left the ramp.b > J > I don't recollect any recently that made the press, but back in the daysJ > when I was interested in Army Aviation I remember reading of a number ofI > crashes (civilian, not military) of small craft that were the result ofaM > putting JP4 in things like Piper, Beach and Cessna's.  They usually crashedo0 > just off the end of the runway during takeoff.  E I would think this depends how much gas is mixed with the lower-gradeeA jet fuel. If the gas level is low enough, the engines may sputtersH briefly on start attempt and then stop. If the gas level is high enough,H engines may run badly, or even pass run up RPM checks, then choke due toG various deposits in the fuel, induction and ignition systems during the 2 take-off roll or just after rotation or departure.   -- i David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:58:42 GMTa. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <rbc8qtkotbunuh1epmihfu4p39padaq89c@4ax.com>  F On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:34:26 -0400, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  G >This Hiroshima - Nagasaki garbage gets trotted out by everytime peopleoJ >feel like attacking the US.  Especially by dis-loyal Americans who chooseG >to live in and enjoy the freedoms provided by the many people who diedlJ >providing it while not thinking they owe their predecesors or the country >anything.    % A. This is off topic for comp.os.vms.t   B. Read Chomsky's article:, http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskybomb.html   He says ( among other things):F "The September 11 attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number ofB victims they do not reach the   level of many others, for example,C Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying ? half its pharmaceutical   supplies and probably killing tens ofmD thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiryE at the UN and no  one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worsel# cases, which  easily come to mind. u  8 ...the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those=  who hope to use force to control their domains. That is even E       putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger 8       -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse.   K >The United States was not the villian then and we are not the villian now.c    B The 3.5 million Vietnamese who died in what they call the AmericanC War, the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to American E sanctions depriving them of food and medications, the 17,000 civilianeA deaths during the invasion of Panama thousands of civilian deaths F during the bombing of an alleged VX factory in Sudan ( turned out thatD it was just a pharmaceuticals factory ), call you deluded at best, a liar at worst.  H >And we will not be the villian when we flatten the people who did this.   Ironic cheers.....' ( subdued sniggers and laughter follow)t  = Yeah, send in the Marines and flatten a few more innocents...wF That will send tens of thousands running to join Osama and others like him.....  B All you will do is  radicalise the moderates among the Muslims and' thus create more potential "martyrs".  w  @ Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to get you results.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:35:17 GMTy5 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <john@REMOVETHISossc.net>1( Subject: Re: programming rms file system? Message-ID: <9YOo7.225061$Lw3.14271211@news2.aus1.giganews.com>d  F The RFM, RAT and MRS are OUTPUTS from a $OPEN, so it is meaningless to
 specify them.s   -John   @ "GWDVMS::MOELLER" <moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de> wrote in message( news:E15htLk-0004t5-00@gwdu42.gwdg.de.../ Jan Mnnich <moennich@data-consult.com> writes:hL > i have an ansi-c library for writing cgi programs called ecgi and compiledL > it under vms successfully. this library has a function for uploading filesI > via http. when i upload a binary file (gif file for example) files over  32KBK > have a LF terminator somewhere in the file allthough i've opened the filem@ > with the parameters RFM=STM (stream) and no record terminators3 > RAT=NONE. is there anything i didn't concidered ?i  4 In my experience, the important option is "ctx=stm",1 which completely bypasses RMS record handling fora (disk!) files.  = With "ctx=stm", parameters RFM, RAT, MRS can be chosen freelya; so as to best reflect the file's structure, for the benefitd. of other programs eventually reading the file.  1 Wolfgang J. Moeller, Tel. +49 551 201-1516/-1510,  moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.denC GWDG, D-37077 Goettingen, F.R.Germany     |    Disclaimer: No claims	 intended!t8 http://www.gwdg.de/~moeller/ ---- <moeller@gwdg.de> ---- <w.moeller@ieee.org>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:08:19 -0500e+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>eB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109151207150.16128-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  , On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  I > In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141032360.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,m1 >    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:b > >rK > >Um, that's not entirely fair.  I was there myself, though only on one orsL > >two occasions, and I was probably only waist high.  I did witness (and beD > >mostly bored through) a couple of coffee machine chat sessions.   > ; > Then you never say _my_ chat session [wry emoticon here].t  . %PROPRIETY-W-INFOVRLOAD  Too much information.   > Parker Street was later.  I I will check -- maybe I have bad info.  Later than what?  I start to feareG a little time discrepancy here.  I know -11M was done *fast* -- about 9o@ months.  And it wasn't done until like late '73, maybe '74 (I'll* check.)  VMS didn't even start until then.  ? > Just initial trail assemblies to ferret out the obvious typos 9 > and bugs.  Those of us who knew more would seek out thel; > submitter of the job and ask about things we thought wereu@ > errors...for instance, did you really want this branch to that2 > label or did you mean to write this other label.  A OK.  I do have a pretty good idea, then.  I can also suppose (andf@ up-front, that's what it is) that Cutler might not have had muchC appreciation for your department, nor felt he needed your services.p  D > We also did all of the on-line docs preparation.  Writing in those > days was all done on paper.s  F It was better too (my opinion.)  Off-topic:  I just acquired a factoryI condition LA34.  You get the benefits of writing on an old Underwood, buthH editing later is easier on a VT.  Writing without a screen is different,4 but sitting in front of a dark monitor is just dumb.  F > It was one of my major accomplishments to get all of DEC's docs intoH > bits.  Until I started my campaign, most of the documentation was done# > on repro paper with a typewriter.   ( Kudos!  Really.  Job well done, I'd say.  B > But you don't have it at DEC.  I'm trying to tell you how it was > done back then.s   Fair enough.  @ > He wasn't happy when he was doing it himself.  He wasn't happy  > having other people do work.    ; To spin the old Lexus ad, perhaps "The resentful pursuit of' perfection" describes his M.O.?h  E > He also had a limited [what I call] anticipation imagination.  This E > limitation is OK as long as you let others anticipation imaginationd > prepare for future releases.  J Interesting -- can you clarify "anticipation imagination?"  Are you sayingI he liked the targets he hit to stay dead, as opposed to realizing that in F the future things might come up again and need to be done differently?  ' > >> >> In his case, he dropped bits.  3 > >> >* > >> >Parity error? <g>  What did he drop? > >> C > >> 20 of them. > >o$ > >You can't blame Cutler for that.  > 0 > See above about the aniticipation imagination.  I Doesn't help, since I'm asking for clarification.  Besides, I still don'tDI see how you're blaming a programmer for hardware.  Sure he had influence,nG but not over a platform that existed _before_ _he_ _worked_ _for_ _the_n
 _company_.  - > > ... The pdp-11 was in existence before hedH > >came to DEC from DuPont.  I think you're really mad at Gordon Bell!   >  > Him, too.*  = When did you start there?  Surely not in the Ben Gurley days?N  	 > > ...SoRJ > >this starts to sound, again, more like a resentment that makes sense.   > >Perhaps something like  > >aH > >"The -10 never had the address space limitations of the -11, thus theL > >expenditure of time and money on a kludge of the -11, later known as VAX,I > >was silly since there already existed a system that could do what they7 > >were trying to do." > A > The PDP-11 was never a kludge.  It was a fine machine.  You're iA > trying to analyze me with no basis so that my opinion of Cutler,  > can be dismissed as pure bias.  J OK.  I am not trying to analyze you, and I see how it looks that way.  AndD I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion of Cutler at all.  It differsF greatly from programmers who worked {with|for|in fear of} him that *I* have spoken with.h  H I'm not saying that you thought any particular thing.  I'm asking, was aG school of thought regarding the VAX, probably held by those involved in,I the -10, fairly stated in the above quoted passage?  By none of them?  Ifn5 it was, could it be possible that you also shared it?   J > >But, as I understand it, the market for the -11 in lab and control appsK > >was bigger than the -10 ever was (that's not what the -10 was for).  YouaL > >just would never sell a -10 to a guy who just needed a little box for hisM > >lab, so the -11 *was* justified, at least at the beginning.  I mean, afterS4 > >all, that's the kind of stuff DEC was founded on. > 0 > We had markets for the whole range of systems.  I But I'd like to know if VAX and -10 were (or thought they were) competingmB for the same markets.  I've heard DEC described as a little marketH beta-test:  if a product could survive internal competition, it would beE the strongest best-suited products that made it to the real market.  eG Maybe this is too close to talking directly about the rancorous siblingjD rivalry between the VAX and the -10, and will get booted.  Comments?  E > >> I'm not talking shortcomings, although that's difficult to avoids@ > >> in the case of Cutler.  I'm talking about work done w.r.t. - > >> how an operating system got developed.  n > >uI > >This may be more clear when you tell what group you were with and what  > >service you provided. > C > Over all the years I worked at DEC?  I don't understand what kindZF > of information you are asking for (since I've already described some	 > of it).r  H No, you cleared up the Tape Prep thing.  What I want to know is why yourH opinion of Cutler is negative, really.  (And that is as direct a requestI as you'll honor.)  If you had written your own OS, or wanted to write VMS0I but would do it differently than Cutler, that's one thing.  If you didn'teF want his job/project, but found the way he did his work troublesome inJ some way, that's another.  You've talked around that bush, maybe it's time> to ask "What'd he ever do to you?"  Or drop it.  Your call. :)   -- l< I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:54:18 GMTl. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to get yy8 Message-ID: <m2b8qtolukauoos2jvqq141dpjikjeomao@4ax.com>  F On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:34:26 -0400, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  G >This Hiroshima - Nagasaki garbage gets trotted out by everytime peopleaJ >feel like attacking the US.  Especially by dis-loyal Americans who chooseG >to live in and enjoy the freedoms provided by the many people who diedJJ >providing it while not thinking they owe their predecesors or the country >anything.    % A. This is off topic for comp.os.vms.u   B. Read Chomsky's article:, http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskybomb.html   He says ( among other things):F "The September 11 attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number ofB victims they do not reach the   level of many others, for example,C Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroyinge? half its pharmaceutical   supplies and probably killing tens ofhD thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiryE at the UN and no  one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worsei# cases, which  easily come to mind. g  8 ...the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those=  who hope to use force to control their domains. That is eveniE       putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will triggere8       -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse.   K >The United States was not the villian then and we are not the villian now.h    B The 3.5 million Vietnamese who died in what they call the AmericanC War, the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to AmericaneE sanctions depriving them of food and medications, the 17,000 civiliantA deaths during the invasion of Panama thousands of civilian deaths F during the bombing of an alleged VX factory in Sudan ( turned out thatD it was just a pharmaceuticals factory ), call you deluded at best, a liar at worst.  H >And we will not be the villian when we flatten the people who did this.   Ironic cheers.....' ( subdued sniggers and laughter follow)o  = Yeah, send in the Marines and flatten a few more innocents....F That will send tens of thousands running to join Osama and others like him.....  B All you will do is  radicalise the moderates among the Muslims and' thus create more potential "martyrs".     @ Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to get you results.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Sep 2001 01:29:42 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center - Message-ID: <87sndonz09.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  5 Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> writes:g  F > Bill, I really like the role you are playing here, sure, there needsB > to be some retribution but the USA really needs to start showingD > that it is growing up, and put some things on the table to show it# > means buisiness in world affairs.   c> > I actually hope Bush is smarter than he seems. For everyone.  B Be nice to see this all before the International Court of Justice.  7 But, I'm not going to piss into the wind on that score.t  4 BTW, the US is not alone in not recognising the ICJ.   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:50:35 GMTm+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centere+ Message-ID: <3BA3D3A5.628D7DA3@ins-msi.com>a   John McLean wrote: >  > Well stated Bill ! > F > I certainly don't endorse the methods of the terrorists but I submitH > that they believe they held some justifiable reasons to be upset about > US policies and actions. > F > I also think that a purely military approach to the problem is not a > useful long-term solution.  G Tell that to the Germans or the Japanese. Or for that matter any of theiB 'tribes' of western europe. The last 56 years has been the longestD period in recorded european history of peace. If we had had the willF at the time we could have disarmed Stalin along with rest. No occupied eastern block. No cold war.   + > It may in fact cause terrorists to becomeD% > even more extreme in their methods.t  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  J > What is desperately needed is a review of why US actions should engenderF > this kind of anger and what steps the US should take to reduce this.I > Compromises both large and small might be very justified if they result  > in a more peaceful world.n >   G This is totally inappropriate. We do not live to assuage other people's  anger.    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I > The US is certainly not the only country whose actions upset others butnG > mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to change attitudesi
 > everywhere.   E The attitude adjustment expected: do not attack the United States. Anw? overwhelming military response will descend upon you and yours.m   > 
 > John McLeanr >e  
 Jeff Campbelle n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:43:51 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerp( Message-ID: <9o0p17$k8f$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Jeff Campbell" <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> wrote in message% news:3BA3D3A5.628D7DA3@ins-msi.com...n > John McLean wrote:   ...   L > > What is desperately needed is a review of why US actions should engenderH > > this kind of anger and what steps the US should take to reduce this.K > > Compromises both large and small might be very justified if they resulta > > in a more peaceful world.: > >O > I > This is totally inappropriate. We do not live to assuage other people's. > anger.  B Anyone unwilling to review their own actions when they are clearlyK objectionable to others is stupid, megalomaniacal, or both.  Such a review,oH in consultation with those finding fault, is how one explains one's realC values (when the review validates that one's actions reflect them),e@ rectifies one's errors (when the review exposes them), and seeksI mutually-acceptable compromise in the gray areas (which are almost alwayst present to some degree).   > " > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>K > > The US is certainly not the only country whose actions upset others butjI > > mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to change attitudes  > > everywhere.o >xG > The attitude adjustment expected: do not attack the United States. AnnA > overwhelming military response will descend upon you and yours.m  K The problem with the responses being discussed (and apparently supported byUK some here) is that they are not confined to those who directly participated - in or knowingly facilitated Tuesday's attack.t  J We have no more right to cause such deaths than Tuesday's perpetrators had? to cause those on Tuesday.  Which leaves the following options:a  J 1.  We do so anyway, in which case we'll in some real sense *deserve* moreG attacks on our own population (and they'll quite likely escalate).  ThevH problem with the suggestion that we can somehow just kill *everyone* whoL might object to such an indiscriminate response is that for every uninvolvedK party you kill, the rest of their family and circle of friends is likely toe get rather upset.a  F 2.  We take reasonable care to limit our reaction to those with directK responsibility for Tuesday's attack but otherwise continue on as before, intH which case we won't deserve more attacks but can't really expect that noH more will occur (people won't be any *less* upset with us than they were before).  I 3.  We react with such reasonable care and also review the factors in oureL conduct (and in some cases perhaps merely in our lack of patient explanationI for it) that to at least some degree fueled Tuesday's tragedy.  That willoJ minimize the likelihood that enough people will despise us to generate theJ kind of coordinated attack that happened on Tuesday, help make the world aL somewhat better place as a whole, and help make us somewhat better people as well.    - bill   >, > >  > > John McLeans > >t >  > Jeff Campbellr > n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:31:44 -0400h' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>E Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf< Message-ID: <howard-F29383.19314415092001@enews.newsguy.com>  + In article <3BA3D3A5.628D7DA3@ins-msi.com>,0-  Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> wrote:c  I > Tell that to the Germans or the Japanese. Or for that matter any of thelD > 'tribes' of western europe. The last 56 years has been the longest/ > period in recorded european history of peace.u  3 You seem to have a VERY bizzare concept of "peace".  --   Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 20:10:43 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri3 Message-ID: <pduVZTvSidkP@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  S In article <3BA317FF.958E9FC3@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:n > F > I started out being very sympathetic to the USA but as the days passE > their kneejerk reaction of reaching for a weapon and their stubborn ? > refusal to even consider that their policies may somehow have79 > contributed are combining to rapidly erode my sympathy.  >   > 	Knee jerk?  Consider the facts that Bin Laden was responsible< 	for the WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and now> 	a very wicked act of ramming the WTC towers and the Pentagon.  < 	I would say that our patience has been more than exemplary. 	l' 	Consider some U.S. neutral situations..A 	China invanded Vietnam because of border excursions and that was2; 	quite a battle for a while.  WWI broke out due to a single1> 	assasination.  Iran and Iraq fought a multi-year war and whatB 	started that?  Iraq gassed Iranians in one of the more despicable 	acts in the 20th century...  * 	Folks whine and carry on about "talking".C 	The time for talking has long since passed and these folks want noh@ 	interaction with us at all , short of terrorizing us.  They are; 	certainly unapproachable and it really doesn't matter now.E   				RobL   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 20:29:47 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)? Subject: Re: World Trade Center 3 Message-ID: <8ywzfCWCdYGU@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  R In article <9o0p17$k8f$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >   L >> > The US is certainly not the only country whose actions upset others butJ >> > mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to change attitudes >> > everywhere. >>H >> The attitude adjustment expected: do not attack the United States. AnB >> overwhelming military response will descend upon you and yours. > M > The problem with the responses being discussed (and apparently supported by M > some here) is that they are not confined to those who directly participatedf/ > in or knowingly facilitated Tuesday's attack.c > L > We have no more right to cause such deaths than Tuesday's perpetrators hadA > to cause those on Tuesday.  Which leaves the following options:t >   > 	This sounds like some Far Left propaganda.  Consider that the? 	Senate voted 96-0 in favor of a measure that authorizes force.n> 	The House voted 420-1.  I thought there would be 2 or 3 mealy> 	mouthed house members , but apparently mental pressure caused? 	1 or two of them to bail out and cast their lot with the rest.s  C http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/WTC_dc010915.htmlr  M In a 420-1 vote late Friday, the House gave final congressional approval to a'K resolution authorizing President Bush to "use all necessary and appropriateaD force" against those involved in Tuesday's deadly terrorist attacks.O Rep. Barbara Lee, D-California, registered the lone dissenting vote, saying sheTC was reluctant to approve any force that could worsen the situation.s    L > 1.  We do so anyway, in which case we'll in some real sense *deserve* moreI > attacks on our own population (and they'll quite likely escalate).  TherJ > problem with the suggestion that we can somehow just kill *everyone* whoN > might object to such an indiscriminate response is that for every uninvolvedM > party you kill, the rest of their family and circle of friends is likely to  > get rather upset., >   = 	This is silly.  Earlier you equated this whole action to theoA 	Gulf of Tonkin resolution.  This is far removed from that.  Thish> 	was thousands of Americans killed on our soil.  Over twice as= 	many that died at Pearl Harbor.  In a war, you don't stop atl? 	nothing.  A boxing match is ended of your opponent is severely < 	injured and looks like he is headed that way.  This isn't a 	boxing match.  H > 2.  We take reasonable care to limit our reaction to those with directM > responsibility for Tuesday's attack but otherwise continue on as before, in J > which case we won't deserve more attacks but can't really expect that noJ > more will occur (people won't be any *less* upset with us than they were
 > before). >   < 	Do you actually expect that if we somehow *only* went after< 	Ben Laden (by the way, which will no doubt take months and ? 	tearing up vast terrain) , others will sign on as "that's okayw
 	with us?"  K > 3.  We react with such reasonable care and also review the factors in ouroN > conduct (and in some cases perhaps merely in our lack of patient explanationK > for it) that to at least some degree fueled Tuesday's tragedy.  That williL > minimize the likelihood that enough people will despise us to generate theL > kind of coordinated attack that happened on Tuesday, help make the world aN > somewhat better place as a whole, and help make us somewhat better people as > well.s >   D 	Oh okay.  What fueled the tragedy.  Does that include the original	G 	World Trade Center bombing?  The U.S.S Cole?  Do you think these talks  	should be held at the U.N.?   	Pleeze.   				Robt   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Sep 2001 21:48:34 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)t Subject: Re: World Trade Centern* Message-ID: <9o10di$adn$1@lisa.gemair.com>  O In article <9nuk6i$5l4$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:  >uA >"Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in messages* >news:3BA2C2B4.28438629@cableinet.co.uk... >> >>$ >> Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote: >> >> > >> >M >> > If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then  >theJ >> > underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is no	 >more. Isc >> > that want you want? >>  >> Why not at least consider it? >tM >The main reason is that once you start trying to undo history (especially in L >a region with several thousand years of it well recorded) there's no end to
 >the process.n > L >Eliminating Israel is at one extreme of the range of possible solutions andM >hence likely not the best one in any event - aside from the fact that IsraelaK >must be a central participant in any solution and clearly cannot entertaintM >this one.  Better to look at the solution range that both sides have alreadyyC >showed themselves willing to discuss:  verbal rather than physicalyJ >engagement between Israel and the Palestinians, effective means of endingL >oppression in the occupied territories and eventually ending the occupation >itself, land for peace, etc.  >aJ >My personal belief is that Israel made a major error in backing away fromL >Rabin's approach to the peace process after his assassination, and that theJ >U.S. made a major error in continuing to support them in the face of thisM >policy change.  But I don't believe that means they've forfeited their rightuI >to exist as a nation, even if half a century ago mistakes were made wheneL >that nation was created.  And their neighbors have shown recent willingnessE >to accept their existence as long as it does not result in continued M >occupation of other territory (which leaves the major shared religious sites-M >as the main remaining bone of contention, and if the rest can be solved thentD >some compromise solution there seems very likely to be achievable). >n  F All this talk about compromise solutions, land for peace, etc. ignoresI the reality that the current adversary wants none of this.  I could quotelI bin Laden if you like, but I'm sure you're familiar with the radical viewu: that nothing short of elimination of Israel is acceptable.  B Bin Laden and those who assassinated Rabin prefer that Israel backC away from the peace process as it in line with their goals.  I justhH don't know how you negotiate with the PLO as long as there's a very realD possibility that moderate leaders on both sides will continue to be E eliminated by the radical Islamic elements.  You just can't work with I the Palestinians as long as a large segment of their camp doesn't want tot work with you.  D In the face of this reality, is it really appropriate to review our G policies when the stated goal of the adversary is complete capitulationuF to their demands?  At what point must we back away from compromise and focus only on military options?y   >- bill  >  >  >    -Jordan HendersonN jordan@greenapple.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:49:52 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade CenterT( Message-ID: <9o1av0$49s$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message$ news:9o10di$adn$1@lisa.gemair.com...   ...U  H > All this talk about compromise solutions, land for peace, etc. ignores< > the reality that the current adversary wants none of this.  L It doesn't ignore it at all:  it's a parallel operation to remove the sourceG of a great deal of his support (and support for others like him).  I'vesL heard multiple purported middle-East experts voice the view that bin Laden'sD recruits come largely from young people who are upset about specificI problems like the situation in the occupied territories and the effect ofAI economic sanctions on the poorest people in Iraq (rather than on those inrD power whom they're supposedly targeting), rather than from religious extremists per se.  H Without such a base of support, it's not clear we'd need to be nearly asE concerned about what bin Laden and people like him want - though it'siK probably a good idea to be willing at least to talk with *anyone* who isn't  actively fighting us.d     I could quotecK > bin Laden if you like, but I'm sure you're familiar with the radical view-< > that nothing short of elimination of Israel is acceptable.  H The fact that this *used* to be the pan-Arab party line but early in theF peace process was renounced by not only the Arab states but by the PLOI proves that progress *is* possible.  Again, without the support of peoplerE with legitimate concerns that ought to be being discussed anyway, any K remaining extremists who want Israel eliminated will constitute far less ofo an actual threat.u   >sD > Bin Laden and those who assassinated Rabin prefer that Israel back= > away from the peace process as it in line with their goals.a  I Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli right-wing extremist.  While I agreesL that they share much in common with similarly rabid Islamic extremists, your@ next sentence suggests that you may have forgotten who did what.     I justJ > don't know how you negotiate with the PLO as long as there's a very realE > possibility that moderate leaders on both sides will continue to be.- > eliminated by the radical Islamic elements.h  L I suppose that is a possibility, but so far such assassination seems to be aI radical Israeli monopoly (though it would not greatly surprise me to findRD out that there had been unsuccessful attempts by radical Islamics on Arafat).     You just can't work withK > the Palestinians as long as a large segment of their camp doesn't want tou > work with you.  B That wasn't Rabin's experience at all:  in fact, that's why he wasK assassinated by an Israeli who didn't like the specific nature of the peace . agreement that seemed close to being attained.   >lE > In the face of this reality, is it really appropriate to review ourtI > policies when the stated goal of the adversary is complete capitulation  > to their demands?t  J A review has nothing to do with 'the adversary', since there appears to beG universal agreement that whoever was directly responsible for Tuesday'siB attack should be, when reliably identified, exterminated (the onlyI disagreement in this area centering on how acceptable it would be to wipe < out significant numbers of non-participants in the process).  L The purpose of a review is to try to find a way to avoid creating a bunch ofK *new* adversaries.  Thus even if the reality were anything like the picturen3 you presented above, a review would be appropriate.   5   At what point must we back away from compromise and>! > focus only on military options?   F At the point where we have exhausted other reasonable options - and we haven't even begun to do so.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:52:14 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>m Subject: Re: World Trade Centern( Message-ID: <9o1b3d$4a1$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:8ywzfCWCdYGU@eisner.encompasserve.org...0L > In article <9o0p17$k8f$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:-   ...0  L > > The problem with the responses being discussed (and apparently supported byB > > some here) is that they are not confined to those who directly participated1 > > in or knowingly facilitated Tuesday's attack.s > >lJ > > We have no more right to cause such deaths than Tuesday's perpetrators hadiC > > to cause those on Tuesday.  Which leaves the following options:h > >s >a, > This sounds like some Far Left propaganda.  L If it's 'Far Left propaganda' to say that indiscriminate killing on our partL is no more justifiable than the indiscriminate killing on Tuesday, so be it.K While I'm not much of a fan of killing at all, if I *had* to choose betweencI killing you or watching you cause the death of some uninvolved Afghan whosL you seem to believe has no right to live just because we happen to be mad, IF hope I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.  Whether that means I'llI actually resort to domestic terrorism myself if a lot of such Afghans (orrJ other uninvolved people) start getting killed without our having exhaustedI all other options first I don't know, but if I don't I'll sure as hell dot$ everything I legally can to stop it.   ...e  J > > 2.  We take reasonable care to limit our reaction to those with directL > > responsibility for Tuesday's attack but otherwise continue on as before, inL > > which case we won't deserve more attacks but can't really expect that noL > > more will occur (people won't be any *less* upset with us than they were > > before). > >w >l= > Do you actually expect that if we somehow *only* went afteru< > Ben Laden (by the way, which will no doubt take months and@ > tearing up vast terrain) , others will sign on as "that's okay > with us?"h  K If we only kill those reasonably provably responsible for Tuesday's attack, I we will  a) hold the moral high ground (which may mean nothing to you buttL means something to me and to many others around the world) and  b) certainlyH raise less active opposition than if we run amuck to the degree that you seem to favor.  A I have no problem with our going after people reasonably provablynF responsible for other terrorist acts, either:  what is unacceptable isB significant collateral damage, including that to people who may beI sympathetic to terrorists but have not knowingly aided them in their acts I and are not actively concealing individuals after reasonable notification # that we're after those individuals.e  I To pick a hypothetical but perhaps not unlikely scenario:  *If* bin LadenlH can be reasonably proved (via evidence sufficient to be accepted by someE reasonable portion of the international community) to have planned oroL financed Tuesday's attack, and *if* after reasonable attempts at negotiationJ we can't get the Taliban government to hand him over or give us permissionI to go in after him, then an actual invasion of Afghanistan would not seem J unethical (though it still might be really stupid:  there just has to be a@ more effective way to get him without major other loss of life).  L That means we do it by the book, not by running off half-cocked just becauseL we're powerful enough to be able to and think that in some way that gives usE the right to.  Try anything else, and we'll have the '60s back with a J vengeance:  don't think that external adversaries are the only ones you'll face.i   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:03:17 GMTd. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: World Trade Center"8 Message-ID: <dhc8qtkcnka7legt74usjhqh66vatenock@4ax.com>  C On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:24:02 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote: >Tim Llewellyn wrote:5? >> I actually hope Bush is smarter than he seems. For everyone.rO >And, so far, he does seem to be handling things calmly and carefully under thec >circumstances.9  + Dont worry, Bush is a consumate politician.h/ He knows that this issue is a sure vote winner.h, He will be going "jingo, jingo" all the way.6 After all, HE is not going to have to risk his life...* Your sons and daughters will do that .....   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.515 ************************