1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 16 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 516       Contents:3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit  Re: memory channel Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: programming rms file system P Re: Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to gP Re: Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to g Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:45:20 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com < Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)+ Message-ID: <9o2698$9ek$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   H In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109151150190.16128-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,/    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: - >On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > J >> In article <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109141121420.9654-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>,2 >>    Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote: >>K >> >That's one of the principal reasons I am badgering Mme. jmfbah, because K >> >among a few alpha-male greybeards I know, Cutler is the only guy I have A >> >ever heard mentioned with anything approaching hero-worship.   >>  @ >> Then you've never had exposure to the PDP-10 side of the biz. > ? >I haven't.  Are you saying they had more heroes or sycophants?   9 They had neither; they had real people doing real work.   @ Go find a customer who dealt with -10s.  The -20 side had a slew of exceptional people, too.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:32:00 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit( Message-ID: <9o1guf$78l$1@pyrite.mv.net>  9 "aaron spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:zYWo7.1142$Md5.127452@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > 4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9o0n3f$j9d$1@pyrite.mv.net...D > > As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of	 *planned* L > > down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantH > > approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supportsJ > > 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundantL > > systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with > > today's hardware.  > > F > Actually this is incorrect.  While Stratus has some planned downtime issues,  > Tandem does not. > K > Stratus uses Triple Modular Redundancy(TMR) which is basically 3 seperate L > processing elements with a majority rules vote.  This gives you both fault4 > detection and fault tolerance at a hardware level.  L Though it was many years ago, I'm reasonably sure that I remember Stratus asL using the 'pair and spare' approach.  Unfortunately, Jim Gray's 'TransactionK Processing' doesn't attribute it to anyone specifically, nor have any entry E for Stratus in the index:  is there any possibility that they changed  technology at some point?    > L > Tandem on the other hand used Dual Modular Redundancy(DMR) which gives youK > fault detection at a hardware level.  They then use a fault isolation and I > tolerance at a software level to acheive a fully fault tolerant system.  InG > effect at the lowest levels, Tandem Himalaya systems are an extremely F > tightly integrated cluster of lockstep processor pairs.  On a tandem system, & > you can upgrade hardware on the fly.  J On a Himalaya system, that's correct - and it does provide an intermediateJ example of clustered redundancy, but one that seemed unnecessarily complexF to get into given that a Tandem Integrity system (which was what I wasI talking about but didn't specify by name until the post following the one  you quote here) uses TMR.    > H > Clustering only gives you fault tolerance, but does not give you faultJ > detection.  You need additional hardware to get the detection is you are > going to just use detection.  G Indeed, which I mentioned in the post preceding the one you quote here.   *   In the current G series 390 systems thisH > detection is handled by the cpu effectively having 2 seperate cores in > lockstep.   I Sounds reminiscent of the AMD 29K.  But it would seem to require a lot of C additional redundancy surrounding the processor itself to equal the ) protection of the other approaches above.    > < > Tandem has proven to be the #1 system as measures by total uptime(including' > both planned and unplanned downtime).   K I'd be curious how it would compare with a cluster of FT nodes (e.g., ftVAX K or a Parallel Sysplex with FT hardware or a cluster of FT Sun nodes), since ' all of them should be very respectable.   $   Tandem is also extremely scalable,: > quite possible the most scalable system available today.  $ For partitionable workloads, anyway.     On the downside,K > Tandem does put more responsibility on the software to do the appropriate - > actions such at checkpointing the progress.   I That's why I avoided it in the discussion above:  it's truly elegant, but C somewhat more complex to deal with than the more common approaches.    - bill     Tandem does however provide a 0 > lot of software infrastructure to enable this. > 
 > Aaron Spink * > not speaking for Compaq/HP/Stratus/Intel >  >    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:56:38 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit+ Message-ID: <9o26uf$9ek$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   D In article <zYWo7.1142$Md5.127452@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,2    "aaron spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net> wrote: > 3 >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message # >news:9o0n3f$j9d$1@pyrite.mv.net... D >> As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of 	 *planned* K >> down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundant G >> approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supports I >> 'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundant K >> systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds with  >> today's hardware. >>F >Actually this is incorrect.  While Stratus has some planned downtime  issues,  >Tandem does not.  > J >Stratus uses Triple Modular Redundancy(TMR) which is basically 3 seperateK >processing elements with a majority rules vote.  This gives you both fault 3 >detection and fault tolerance at a hardware level.  > K >Tandem on the other hand used Dual Modular Redundancy(DMR) which gives you J >fault detection at a hardware level.  They then use a fault isolation andJ >tolerance at a software level to acheive a fully fault tolerant system.   InF >effect at the lowest levels, Tandem Himalaya systems are an extremelyF >tightly integrated cluster of lockstep processor pairs.  On a tandem  system, % >you can upgrade hardware on the fly.   < That's [configuration changing without service interruption]: what we were working towards with TOPS-10 SMP.  One of the7 bugaboos of the -10 monitor structure was having device : drivers and data hardcoded into the resident monitor.  To 9 put in a second controller (or a new controller) required > a reload of the monitor if it hadn't been built with expansion. in mind.  But we never got time to work on it.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:58:34 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit+ Message-ID: <9o2721$9ek$7@bob.news.rcn.net>   2 In article <bjNo7.677$O6.1621@grover.nit.gwu.edu>,,    jeffreyb@gwu.edu (Jeffrey Boulier) wrote: <snip>  K >I seem to remember some Pr1mates winding up at Stratus but I don't know if  >that was a major trend.  ) A few of those Pr1mates were DECcies :-).    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:44:42 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> @ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <uelp7xkjv.fsf@earthlink.net>   0 "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@worldnet.att.net> writes: > M > Jim Gray, when he was at Tandem, did a study on the causes of downtime.  HW E > failure was way down the list.  I don't know if the paper is online N > anywhere, but I think I have a paper copy I can try to dig out if people are
 > interested.    totally random refs:f http://www.hdcc.cs.cmu.edu/may01/schedule.html Second High Dependability Computing Consortium WorkshipA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#5 New IBM history book out A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#6 New IBM history book out A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#7 New IBM history book out 9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#31 Title Inflation    --  F Anne & Lynn Wheeler  | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:43:41 GMT / From: "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: memory channel D Message-ID: <h02p7.271$d44.397345@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net>  L We had many unexplained system crashes on our 2 node ES40 cluster, about oneE a month.  The crash dump analysis always seemed to indicate something J related to memory channel operations, but nothing solid.  The hardware wasK replaced, still problems.  It got to the point that management was ready to K throw Compaq out and find another hardware vendor.  Finally Compaq admitted H that there were other customers with similar configurations have similarL problems.  They purchased and installed a memory channel hub and we have not had a crash since last March.   I Although I have not checked, I would expect that "hubless" configurations I are no longer on the supported configuration list (at least for OpenVMS).    Regards, Tom   7 "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl> wrote in message 5 news:3ba3afe6$0$65636$e4fe514c@newszilla.xs4all.nl... < > "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net> wrote in messageB > news:VXLo7.7020$na5.1625389@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net...I > > I hope your memory channel configuration includes a hub...  Direct MC  > > connection > > is a problem.  > >  > > Regards, > > Tom  > L > Could you explain a little bit more? It's the first time that I have heard > of it! >  > Bart Zorn  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:22:06 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA4DFBE.D6C86E39@fsi.net>    Israel Raj T wrote:  > [snip]D > ... the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to American4 > sanctions depriving them of food and medications,    Corrections:   1. UN sanctions, not "American"   E 2. The sole blame for this lies with the recalcitrant despot dictator H who holds his own ambitions higher than the lives of those he is trusted
 to govern.  F Saddam knows how to lift the sanctions - but he never will. The deathsF and plight of his people weigh on his shoulders alone - no one else's.   Get *REAL* clear on that!    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:46:58 +0100 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>( Subject: Re: programming rms file system8 Message-ID: <4709qtk8qmn816un0947k0u51pic9jo4gb@4ax.com>  7 On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:35:17 GMT, "John Gemignani, Jr."   <john@REMOVETHISossc.net> wrote:  G >The RFM, RAT and MRS are OUTPUTS from a $OPEN, so it is meaningless to  >specify them.  E You can change the RFM field before each $GET if you choose, and this A will affect how that read works.  Can't see RAT and MRS being any F different to be honest.  However, if you are using a HLL, you may findH it has cached some pertinent information and may object to fiddling with the underlying RMS structures.  G I have used this technique to recover logical records from a file which E was transferred from tape to disk on a u**x machine and thus lost all G the record structure.  Not being especially C-savvy at the time (it may H offer better stream or undefined record support), I used Fortran to openH the file (fiddling the RFM field to VAR in the USEROPEN routine to matchD the OPEN keyword and then returning it to UDF later) and then calledC $GET with buffer sizes that I worked out as I read the fixed-length D internal file headers.  (SEGY data if anyone is interested.)  Worked
 just fine.     	John  --  
 John Laird Yezerski Roper Ltd   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:51:06 -0500  From: "Q" <wicawa@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to g + Message-ID: <9o1eo60oei@enews4.newsguy.com>   & human lives are human lives regardlessA politicians don't sacrifice anything personal, except a few votes G a real warrior will think long and hard about sacrifice lives and other  people's children G in the case of nukes - no one wins, the fallout will be felt everywhere E who wants to earn the wages to harvest oil in the midst of radiation?   J even me, unemployed and ineligible for the great American dole won't do itK I'll dig in the trash to feed my child first than waste the lives of others   ! Israel Raj T wrote in message ... G >On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:34:26 -0400, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>  >wrote:  > H >>This Hiroshima - Nagasaki garbage gets trotted out by everytime peopleK >>feel like attacking the US.  Especially by dis-loyal Americans who choose H >>to live in and enjoy the freedoms provided by the many people who diedK >>providing it while not thinking they owe their predecesors or the country  >>anything.  > & >A. This is off topic for comp.os.vms. >  >B. Read Chomsky's article: - >http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskybomb.html  >  >He says ( among other things): G >"The September 11 attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number of C >victims they do not reach the   level of many others, for example, D >Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying@ >half its pharmaceutical   supplies and probably killing tens ofE >thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry F >at the UN and no  one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worse# >cases, which  easily come to mind.  > 9 >...the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those > > who hope to use force to control their domains. That is evenF >      putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger8 >      -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse. > L >>The United States was not the villian then and we are not the villian now. >  > C >The 3.5 million Vietnamese who died in what they call the American D >War, the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to AmericanF >sanctions depriving them of food and medications, the 17,000 civilianB >deaths during the invasion of Panama thousands of civilian deathsG >during the bombing of an alleged VX factory in Sudan ( turned out that E >it was just a pharmaceuticals factory ), call you deluded at best, a  >liar at worst.  > I >>And we will not be the villian when we flatten the people who did this.  >  >Ironic cheers..... ( >( subdued sniggers and laughter follow) > > >Yeah, send in the Marines and flatten a few more innocents...G >That will send tens of thousands running to join Osama and others like 	 >him.....  > C >All you will do is  radicalise the moderates among the Muslims and & >thus create more potential "martyrs". > A >Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more  >likely to get you results.    ------------------------------   Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:50:15 GMT+ From: nenosed@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) Y Subject: Re: Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more likely to g ; Message-ID: <slrn9q98fk.3rt.nenosed@arthur.valhalla.net.au>a  C Israel Raj T wrote in <m2b8qtolukauoos2jvqq141dpjikjeomao@4ax.com>:e   ----snip----  B > Treating Arabs and Muslims with respect and humanity is far more > likely to get you results.  F Yes. It worked for Lawrence of Arabia. But who else has ever tried it?E Certainly not his masters at Whitehall, who broke the undertakings hen was given and gave.d   Nedy -- hJ To reply, cut out my nose        *   Democracy means "the people rule".  *J  and make the met a net.         *     Fight for the power of assent.    *   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:37:16 +0100w1 From: "Bagbourne" <the_bagbournes@btinternet.com>D Subject: Re: World Trade Center 3 Message-ID: <9o1rl6$rrf$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>w   ----- Original Message -----+ From: Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org>o Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsg* Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:51 PM Subject: Re: World Trade Center/    L > In article <9nr1v3$sp2$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:: >w > >lK > > Though I'm no fan of Dubya, he seems to be keeping his head a good deal:E > > better than you are - perhaps because he's surrounded by seasonedR) > > professionals (including his father).d >3@ > Yep.  Professionals like Rumsfield that state we will vanquish( > the enemy.  Vanquish means "wipe out."  I I don't think "off topic" is relevant here. We are a bunch of intelligenteL people with something in common discussing things. Try a mesage board in theG "outside world". They are full of obscene suggestions from rednecks whorL would happily (by remote control) send airliners into Arabian office blocks!   Anyway:h   What did Abraham Lincoln say?h  8 "When I turn an enemy into a friend, I destroy my enemy"  I Bomb the mosques, and 10,000 volunteers for suicide missions all over thetH world will be on their mobile phones being told how to blow up the local- power station/oil refinery/water works etc...n  J I am as angry as hell at the insane, fanatical, probably mentally unstableF (suicide is an expression of mental illness) zealots who did this, but@ lashing out at all and sundry will not advance any cause at all.  L IF it is possible to insert a strong enough force into Bin Laden's area, andC take on his army, and arrest him, then that is what should be done..  J Half of the people in the middle east don't know the full truth of what isH going on. They are at the mercy of their government's propaganda machineG with its "zionist imperialist etc etc etc ..." rantings. They are being-D whipped up just as much as the more fervent militarists in the west.  H They need to be able to understand that the western world is essentiallyG peaceful (for whatever reason - protecting business interests - discussiK elsewhere), and we need to understand that 99% of people in the middle eastaH are peaceful. If anything will help save the world it's global satellite communications.m  E Why cannot the US reign in Israel's agression? No, Palestine is not adK country, but it is a nation. Some change of rhetoric, some criticism of theuH heavy handedness of Israel's policies would do wonders in bringing aboutK more reason. I know that siucide bombers target Israeli civilians, and it'soI terrible, but the IRA did the same thing here for years. Entrenched viewsJF have to change. The established view of  Nelson Mandela changed from a, terrorist into an ambassasor for wold peace.  B We must not behave as extremists. We must be SEEN not to behave as extremists.L   Nigeln   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:55:21 +0100e1 From: "Bagbourne" <the_bagbournes@btinternet.com>o Subject: Re: World Trade Center72 Message-ID: <9o1sn3$vc$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>  = Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageiF news:rdeininger-1309012102510001@user-2ive7ie.dialup.mindspring.com...H > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validE > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it hasyJ > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aD > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > appropriate response.   K You need to think more carefully about your response, you might make thingsnH worse. This is not a war where the enemy will just say "OK, I surrender"G when you hit them hard, sign a peace treaty, and then get on with theirr! lives. They don't work like that.   F What USEFUL. I repeat ***USEFUL*** action do you want to take? BombingG mosques would create 10,000 new volunteers to do more of the same! DropTJ nuclear bombs on Afghanistan? They are already IN the stone age. It workedF on Japan because they had in infrastructure to destory. Afghanistan is; already a wasteland. 85% of people live outside the cities.-  J Bomb Pakistan, and you would push everyone in the region into your "eitherH with us or against us" stance. Then you'd have to bomb Iran, Iraq, SaudiH Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, and more. You couldJ probably off about half a billion people, but not all of "THEM". You wouldH then have to get rid of a lot of angry middle eastern people. Errm, oh IE know, big concentration camps.... oh that's been tried, and we didn't  approve of that!  L I'm just thining things through, and I am sure the leaders of the free worldF are thinking te same thoughts. I am glad hot heads like you are not in charge!g  F The attacks on the WTC were completely, totally wrong, and NOTHING canJ justify them, ***NOTHING***. Nobody in this forum is making JUSTIFICATIONSL for the actions, that is nobody is saying "the attack is right because x, y, z"  I There are CAUSES though for everything. Can you see the difference? Every J hapenning in the world is part of a chain of cause and effect. That is whyL people bring the complex issue of middle eastern politics into it. That DOESJ NOT make people your enemy! Splitting into factions is what the terrorists+ want. They will win if you think like that.o  G Military action IS needed to arrest Bin Laden. All his assets should bec$ confiscated and used as reparations.  J The allies set an example to the world at the end of WWII, when instead ofI just neck-shooting the nazi command chain on the battlefield, and buryingaL them, they brought them and their deeds to the light of justice at Nuremburg> where their crimes were heard and recorded by the whole world.   Nigeln   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:02:09 +0100a1 From: "Bagbourne" <the_bagbournes@btinternet.com>h Subject: Re: World Trade Centere1 Message-ID: <9o1t3r$79e$1@uranium.btinternet.com>    ----- Original Message -----2 From: Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vmst( Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:46 AM Subject: Re: World Trade Centert	 >If othertH > parties have similar complaints about the U.S., it needs to be crystal9 > clear that they must find a better way to deal with it.m  4 There is no way to influence the US if you are poor.  J Many, Many people all over the world have grievances about the US, and theG activities of US based multinational corporations. These people are notiK heard. What do they do? Phone up the whitehouse? NOBODY amd NOTHING changeseI US policy. NOTHING. Profit is all, and let the world, the people go hang.f  C Again, there is no JUSTIFICATION for terrorism, there are CAUSES ofw
 terrorism.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:46:12 +0100.& From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk> Subject: Re: World Trade Centern- Message-ID: <3BA4BB34.798EFA1C@aerosys.co.uk>i   Bill Todd wrote: >  > 7 >   At what point must we back away from compromise andl# > > focus only on military options?a > H > At the point where we have exhausted other reasonable options - and we > haven't even begun to do so. >  > - bill  P You're doing a fine job here Bill, far more eloquently than I could or have time for. Keep up the good work.   O The forces of darkness are always ready and waiting where men of good will failm to speak out and act.    Chrisr   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:19:33 -050061 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerl' Message-ID: <3BA4D115.DB730CB4@fsi.net>    Bill Todd wrote: > > > "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message& > news:9o10di$adn$1@lisa.gemair.com... > [SNIP]7 > > At what point must we back away from compromise andu# > > focus only on military options?  > H > At the point where we have exhausted other reasonable options - and we > haven't even begun to do so.  E Y'know, I am truly loath to interject any comments here. I'm just noweE starting to tweak myself back toward my "normal" center (as if I ever E had one) and my shock is turning to rage at a pace that frightens me. 7 However, I cannot let such a statement go unchallenged.-  E I do commend you, Bill, on your calm approach. However, the statement D you make begs the question: how many more WTC-like tragedies must weF endure while we attempt to "exhaust other reasonable options", and endH up back at the same decision (to attack or not to attack? to nuke or not
 to nuke?)?  A Another poster remarked about Japan's response to our bombings ofmC Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan surrendered because they saw an enemyg@ become something they could no longer fight: and enemy who couldD obliterate their nation and homeland in a matter of days - far worseC than Nazi Germany could have ever hoped in its drive to achieve itsr ends.   G Terrorists will not surrender, roll over and either "play nice" or die.oE The only effective weapon we have is rendered useless by their belief G that if we use it, we will send them exactly where they want to go (thenF "next life"), and thus they will continue motivating and even escalateG their motivation of the U.S. not only to continue a nuclear assault butn( even to escalate to a more global scale.  F "Terrorism abatement" is an oxymoron. Terrorism appeasement would openE floodgates of terror and destruction that could never be closed, ever E again. Destroying terrorists and those who harbor or train terroristsgE only generates more anti-U.S. sentiment among terrorist sympathizers,n thus "propagating the cycle".z  G All things considered, whatever the U.S. does, or even if it were to do & nothing, it's a lose-lose proposition.  H I would be curious to know what options you would see as "reasonable" in the face of such a challenge.    -- d David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.516 ************************