1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 17 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 518       Contents: re: aircraft fuels+ any configuration files need to be changed! / Re: any configuration files need to be changed!  Backup
 Re: Backup
 Re: Backup. RE: Backup (to a tape drive on another system) Re: Bank of New York/ Blowback (was Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center )  Re: Bomb The Mosques RE: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques BOOTP booting of VXT 2000? Re: BOOTP booting of VXT 2000?B Re: Bugcheck when installing OpenVMS 7.2 on Alphastation 200 4/233% Re: DECWindows won't start on console  DECWINDOWS XServer Re: DECWINDOWS XServer! Re: Digital Storage Works cabinet  Re: ed/edt corrupting files 3 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise) 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 7 Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit  Re: I hate Compaq  Javac on VMS Re: Javac on VMS Re: Javac on VMS Re: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: More VMS Wish List Items... + Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3 + Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3 + Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3 + Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3  OT : XWD on VMS  Re: OT : XWD on VMS  Re: OT : XWD on VMS  OT Re: World Trade Center + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK + Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK  OT: WTC and interventionism  OT: WTC and who may be to blame # Re: OT: WTC and who may be to blame  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: programming rms file system . Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills2 Re: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills2 RE: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills2 Re: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) 9 Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported) P VAX 4000-90 trouble after testing NETBSD CD with error ?? 000 8 sys 0512 in POST, Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use? Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq Re: WTC and High Availabilty  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 07:52:32 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: re: aircraft fuels 3 Message-ID: <iq7Gt97YtFgO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3BA3A35F.AE54B4A8@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   G > I would think this depends how much gas is mixed with the lower-grade  > jet fuel.   E    The presence of any jet fuel in an aircraft not designed for it is G    cause for that aircraft to be grounded until corrected.  Any running F    of the engine under these circumstances requires that the engine beC    torn down, inspected, and any resulting problems corrected.  Not F    an inexpensive proposition as one fuel supplier learned a few yearsG    ago when they paid for the engine overhuals on about 200 aircraft in ;    California after that supplier accidentally mixed fules.   F    The last time we had our Lycoming overhauled it cost about US $14K.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:11:09 +0530 $ From: "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com>4 Subject: any configuration files need to be changed!0 Message-ID: <KFip7.249$YP.9780@news.cpqcorp.net>   Hi ,: I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.1 I am facing a problem with the following command.   '   create/term/detach/wind=(x=100,y=100)   H I have tested this scenario on couple of VMS machines.  On one of them IL have been able to position the decterm at the specified coordinates. WhereasJ on  another machine I am not able to position the decterm at the specified coordinate. A (Note I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.)   J  Is there any configuration that needs to be done on the VMS side for this1 command to work properly on an X Window emulator?   F I strongly think that this problem is a configuration issue. Would you( please help us in resolving the problem?  
 With regards, 	 Upadhyaya    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:10:26 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 8 Subject: Re: any configuration files need to be changed!0 Message-ID: <Dvnp7.265$YP.9979@news.cpqcorp.net>  , Check the versions of Motif on the machines.   upadhyaya wrote in message ... >Hi , ; >I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine. 2 >I am facing a problem with the following command. > ( >  create/term/detach/wind=(x=100,y=100) > I >I have tested this scenario on couple of VMS machines.  On one of them I E >have been able to position the decterm at the specified coordinates.  Whereas K >on  another machine I am not able to position the decterm at the specified  >coordinate.B >(Note I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.) > K > Is there any configuration that needs to be done on the VMS side for this 2 >command to work properly on an X Window emulator? > G >I strongly think that this problem is a configuration issue. Would you ) >please help us in resolving the problem?  >  >With regards,
 >Upadhyaya >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:02:04 +0200 < From: "Hoogenboom, Martin" <M.Hoogenboom@groothandel.opg.nl> Subject: Backup = Message-ID: <E0D9C7CE092BD211872D00805F65C83B015F3850@UTNT10>    Hi,    I have a simple question: B Is it possible to backup a disk from one system, across a network,+ to a tape unit connecte to another system ? . If yes, how what needs to run on the systems ?  ; Both systems are standalone Alpha's running OpenVMS 7.2-1H1    TIA, Martin Hoogenboom    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:43:33 +0200 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> Subject: Re: Backup G Message-ID: <3ba60b5b$0$28674$6e365a64@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   A "Hoogenboom, Martin" <M.Hoogenboom@groothandel.opg.nl> schrieb im C Newsbeitrag news:E0D9C7CE092BD211872D00805F65C83B015F3850@UTNT10...  > Hi,  >  > I have a simple question: D > Is it possible to backup a disk from one system, across a network,- > to a tape unit connecte to another system ? 0 > If yes, how what needs to run on the systems ? > = > Both systems are standalone Alpha's running OpenVMS 7.2-1H1  >  > TIA, > Martin Hoogenboom    Hi!   I I have been using "remote device facility" (RDF, www.ttinet.com) for that 0 purpose. It's not cheap, but it does a good job.   Regards    Ren Schelbaum Datakom Austria GesmbH   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:40:01 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Backup ) Message-ID: <3BA61951.E07B5CBD@127.0.0.1>    "Hoogenboom, Martin" wrote:  >  > Hi,  >  > I have a simple question: D > Is it possible to backup a disk from one system, across a network,- > to a tape unit connecte to another system ? 0 > If yes, how what needs to run on the systems ?  H You MUST consider this very carefully. If you have a system disk failureG on your system without the tape drive, how will you restore that system  disk?   B Other considerations are what other effects of backing up over theG network there are, if you share the network with others, are they doing . the same, will you affect other network users?  5 It is possible but you need to carefully consider it.  --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:37:49 -0400 2 From: "Kent, Philip  JW1811" <kent@jwfc.jfcom.mil>7 Subject: RE: Backup (to a tape drive on another system) H Message-ID: <5B57189920E7D41190B500606D210686011A6B0C@mailsvr.jfcom.mil>  K There are several software packages that will allow you to do this.  I have J used Thruway by Software Partners.  You can find more info on this product at http://www.sp32.com/   K One can also do backups to a saveset on a spare disk on the system with the J tape drive, and then copy this saveset to the tape drive.  This is what we' are doing for our 30 MicroVAX 3100/96s.    -----Original Message-----A From: Hoogenboom, Martin [mailto:M.Hoogenboom@groothandel.opg.nl] ) Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 10:02 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: Backup      Hi,    I have a simple question: B Is it possible to backup a disk from one system, across a network,+ to a tape unit connecte to another system ? . If yes, how what needs to run on the systems ?  ; Both systems are standalone Alpha's running OpenVMS 7.2-1H1    TIA, Martin Hoogenboom    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:44:16 -0400  From: William_Bochnik@acml.com Subject: Re: Bank of New York > Message-ID: <OF3A4D3EB4.BB060A28-ON85256ACA.005659B8@acml.com>  H As of this morning, BONY and my wife's company are unable to verify thatB her direct depost went in last week, nor can she use any BONY cashF machines.  They have, however, notified her that any NYCE network cash. machine charges will be waived in the interim.        i                                                                                                           i                     John Malmberg                                                                         i                     <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.d                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                      i                     ec.compaq>                            cc:                                             i                                                   Subject:     Re: Bank of New York                       i                     09/14/2001 12:06 PM                                                                   i                                                                                                           i                                                                                                                  David Mathog wrote: G > Last night the head of one of the Bond trading houses was on the news % > and after he said that  his company G > were now operating out if its backup site, he noted that things could G > have been worse, citing the Bank of New York as having  lost both its E > primary and secondary sites during the attack and was now operating G > out of a third site.  Anyone know the details on this? Seems odd that F > anyone would put the secondary site within 100 miles of the primary.B > Maybe he was referring to office locations and not data centers?  > As they are running, it does appear that they had a good plan.  D You note that they had a third site.  Having a third or forth remoteE backup site allows the secondary site to be closer to the primary for F convenience.  Most computer center dissasters are much more locallized than what happened here.  B Communication lines have proven to be the weakest link for typicalD problems.  Having separate paths for them may be more important thanC physical distance for the most common reasons a backup system would F be needed.  Electrical outages are next on the list, including someone) accidentally pressing the big red button.   A I would not be surprised if many companies did not have more than - three sites that can handle their processing.   G > Seems like there must be an awful lot of companies right now spending # > $$$ building new secondary sites.   D While it will likely get more focused.  I think that those companiesA that need this type of backup already have their alternate sites.   ; It is more likely that they are reviewing their procedures.   D In the end, it is people that make the dissaster plans work, not theF technology.  And this is a tragedy that will effect all of us for some
 time to come.   / The machines and the buildings can be replaced.    -John  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:32:08 GMT . From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>8 Subject: Blowback (was Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center )8 Message-ID: <aqqbqtcrc94sralu41pqentrcjabbfccuj@4ax.com>  3 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:49:13 -0500, Phil Mendelsohn  <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> wrote:  D >That could get messy, when it is shown that the U.S. originally setJ >Hussein up in business in the first place, sometime around the deposition >of the Shah of Iran.   @ It is also well known that Osama was initially aided by the US .     From Jane's:  D "Osama bin Laden was one of many US beneficiaries in its war againstB Moscow. He spent years in the mid-1980s travelling widely to raiseB funds and recruit thousands of Muslim youths to fight the Soviets.  D In 1988, with US knowledge, Bin Laden created Al Qaeda (The Base): aF conglomerate of quasi-independent Islamic terrorist cells in countries& spread across at least 26 countries. "  H http://www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml  A Ironic, an American made monster now biting the hand that created  it....  $ The CIA refer to this as "blowback".   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:43:26 +0200 5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques + Message-ID: <3BA5C5BE.C29CB5D7@TeraPort.de>    Israel Raj T wrote:  > 4 > On 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700, eusphoros@yahoo.com > (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote: > H > >I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day for 40 days+ > >until Osama and his followers surrender.  >      > 2 > Bomb one single Mosque and you strengthen Osama.    G  and this is exactely what he (or whoever is behind last Tuesday) wants F - a united Islamic world in war against the west. I just say to Bush -+ be very careful in what you are doing next.    Martin --  B ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309 7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111 5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:55:38 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Bomb The Mosques - Message-ID: <0033000035412921000002L012*@MHS>   8 =0ABlaming all Muslims for what happened last Tuesday is; as idiotic as blaming all white folks for the Ku Klux Klan.   9 My neighbor across the street is from Iraq and is just as # horrified at what happened as I am.   > I told him to be careful, that there were a lot of folks whose2 anger was overriding their common sense out there.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET * > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:00 AMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET > Subject: RE: Bomb The Mosques  >  >  > Israel Raj T wrote:  > > 6 > > On 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700, eusphoros@yahoo.com  > > (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote: > > > > > >I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day
 > for 40 days - > > >until Osama and his followers surrender.  > >  >  >  > > 4 > > Bomb one single Mosque and you strengthen Osama. >o >h: >  and this is exactely what he (or whoever is behind last > Tuesday) wantsH > - a united Islamic world in war against the west. I just say to Bush = -l- > be very careful in what you are doing next.s >r > Martin > --D > ------------------------------------------------------------------D > Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de9 > TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309l9 > C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111e7 > http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759- >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:30:11 +0000e  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosquese/ Message-ID: <00256ACA.004FAD04.00@quegw01.btyp>6  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    5 Didn't stop anyone on Question Time last week though.e  M I'm not 100% sure whether that law has ever been used except where it is usednK against non-Caucasians in the UK, although in principle it is a 'good' law.aP Perhaps it would not be allowed in the US where it might contravene some part of' the Constitution regarding free speech?O   Steve Ss        G Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> on 09/15/2001 12:32:37 AMt    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)uL From:      Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>, 15 September 2001,            0:32 a.m.   Re: Bomb The Mosques            D "Eusphoros@yahoo.com" wrote a load of total drivel, to which I reply  N Don't you have a law against inciting racial hatred like we do here in the uk?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:25:58 +02001( From: "Joris Pragt" <pragtich@yahoo.com># Subject: BOOTP booting of VXT 2000?g0 Message-ID: <9o5bo1$kdk$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>  
 Hallo all,  H I have recently acquired a few VXT 2000 X-terminals, which are very niceL pieces of hardware, indeed. However, I have not been able to boot them. As IG do not have any VMS machines here, I would like to boot the things withiK BOOTP/TFTP. I have, however, been unsuccesful in my attempts. I have set up E bootp/tftp servers on both SGI IRIX and Windows 2000, but both do not  function properly.K I have studied ths server logs and sniffed the ethernet traffic, but do not L understand what is happening. The request for BOOTP information from the VXTJ is received, and a response is broadcast. However, after this the VXT doesH not seem to reply and continues trying other protocols as if nothing was6 received at all. No TFTP connection attempts are done.  J Has anybody had experience with this kind of problem? Has anybody actuallyJ got BOOTP/TFTP to work for the VXT2000 or is it actually not working? Am I4 making a mistake or is it just not supposed to work?   TIA for your help,   Joris Pragt    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:42:53 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> ' Subject: Re: BOOTP booting of VXT 2000?h/ Message-ID: <3BA635F7.B27A860E@cableinet.co.uk>n   Joris Pragt wrote: >  > Hallo all, > J > I have recently acquired a few VXT 2000 X-terminals, which are very niceN > pieces of hardware, indeed. However, I have not been able to boot them. As II > do not have any VMS machines here, I would like to boot the things withaM > BOOTP/TFTP. I have, however, been unsuccesful in my attempts. I have set uppG > bootp/tftp servers on both SGI IRIX and Windows 2000, but both do notf > function properly.M > I have studied ths server logs and sniffed the ethernet traffic, but do not N > understand what is happening. The request for BOOTP information from the VXTL > is received, and a response is broadcast. However, after this the VXT doesJ > not seem to reply and continues trying other protocols as if nothing was8 > received at all. No TFTP connection attempts are done. > L > Has anybody had experience with this kind of problem? Has anybody actuallyL > got BOOTP/TFTP to work for the VXT2000 or is it actually not working? Am I6 > making a mistake or is it just not supposed to work?  C just checking, but have you installed the VXT software on the bootp  host?o   regardss   >  > TIA for your help, > 
 > Joris Pragta   -- e Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  c  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of n! my employers or service provider.c   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 17:35:03 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>aK Subject: Re: Bugcheck when installing OpenVMS 7.2 on Alphastation 200 4/233 H Message-ID: <y4g09l6daw.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  I It's likely something in the hardware is broken, or you have an otherwiseo unsupported configuration.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:25:04 +0200-  From: Cor Mom <cor.mom@momss.nl>. Subject: Re: DECWindows won't start on console( Message-ID: <3BA5B360.13957CD3@momss.nl>  F Try to change the symbol DECW$SERVER_TRANSPORTS from "DECNET,LOCAL" toE "LOCAL,DECNET" in the file DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_STARTUP.COM. It helpedh me.m   Cheers,u   Cor Momt     Catherine McKinney wrote:e > J > I recently upgraded an AS1200 from VMS 7.1-1H1 to 7.21. After applying aB > couple of system patches DECWindows would no longer start on theH > console. I was getting error messages that my globalsections parameterG > was too low so I ran autogen and upped the amount. The error messagesaJ > stopped and it appears that the DECWindows server process is running butJ > the console just comes up in character mode. I don't know too much aboutG > DECWindows (obviously) and would appreciate some help on this matter.e > Specifically:d > H > 1.  How does the system know whether to run DECWindows on the console?9 > 2.  Is there a setting somewhere that I need to change?j > 	 > Thanks!t >  > Jimc   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:17:09 +0200 0 From: Thomas Hahnemann <Thomas.Hahnemann@s-t.de> Subject: DECWINDOWS XServer,& Message-ID: <3BA5CDA5.DC0078E1@s-t.de>  : I have an X application witch works for about a week with < millions of drawing operations. Then I get following error :  - Xlib: resource ID allocation space exhausted!9Y  X Error of failed request:  BadIDChoice (invalid resource ID chosen for this connection)B2   Major opcode of failed request:  55 (X_CreateGC),   Resource id in failed request:  0x10000000* Serial number of failed request:  181913363   Current serial number in output stream:  18191341o4 %XLIB-E-ERROREVENT, error event received from server/ %TRACE-E-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump followst9   image    module    routine             line      rel PCa ...     I I've counted the allocation of gc's in my application, all seems correct.n  = Is there any tool or switch of decw$server to get infos abouta  the allocation of X-ressources ?   Thanks in advance+        Thomas Hahnemann    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:13:17 -0400-5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>, Subject: Re: DECWINDOWS XServerm0 Message-ID: <iynp7.266$YP.9897@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Check your code again.  It sounds like you are repeatedly creating somethingG that needs a resource ID, this could be anything from a GC to a PIXMAP.lI Until we get to X11R6 (sometime next year) the R5 code does not handle IDo6 exhaustion very well, however - it sounds like you areI allocating/deallocating a lot of something, that you probably want to trye and re-use.i    ? Thomas Hahnemann wrote in message <3BA5CDA5.DC0078E1@s-t.de>...-: >I have an X application witch works for about a week with= >millions of drawing operations. Then I get following error :  >e. >Xlib: resource ID allocation space exhausted!I > X Error of failed request:  BadIDChoice (invalid resource ID chosen for1 this connection)3 >  Major opcode of failed request:  55 (X_CreateGC)m- >  Resource id in failed request:  0x10000000h+ >Serial number of failed request:  18191336 4 >  Current serial number in output stream:  181913415 >%XLIB-E-ERROREVENT, error event received from server 0 >%TRACE-E-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows: >  image    module    routine             line      rel PC >... >i > J >I've counted the allocation of gc's in my application, all seems correct. >v> >Is there any tool or switch of decw$server to get infos about! >the allocation of X-ressources ?o >T >Thanks in advance >e >     Thomas Hahnemann   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:13:57 -0400c! From: Mike <tmarshall04@snet.net> * Subject: Re: Digital Storage Works cabinet( Message-ID: <3BA61335.9AC6F0BD@snet.net>  P ok guys...here ya go ...this is the model and serial number of the storage worksO cabinet that i was trying to find info on. Digital Storage Works model SWXTL-BLo serial # 1055101595.   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Sep 2001 08:45:01 GMT- From: forkosh@panix2.panix.com (John Forkosh)p$ Subject: Re: ed/edt corrupting files) Message-ID: <9o4d6d$j30$1@news.panix.com>   ' ChrisQ (lightwork@aerosys.co.uk) wrote:  : John Forkosh wrote:s : > % : > John Santos (JOHN@egh.com) wrote:S; : > : Could this be a console terminal driver problem?  Seea : > : below:A : > Sounds about consistent with my additional tests (see below), < : > except that a Win-NT box running KEA emulator (as vt420)C : > worked completely okay when plugged into vs's mmj port as opa0.UC : > It's only the physical Wyse-285 that messes up when plugged in.n@ : > Is that observation consistent with terminal driver problem? : >   @ : Would think that it's unlikely to be a terminal driver problemD   if it works with an emulator, more likely to be Wyse firmware bug.C   I know this is obvious, but are you sure you have the Wyse set upnI   for X-on/X-off flow control, 2 wire data and no rts/cts flow control ?.e  6 Turns out to be a Wyse firmware bug, as you suggested.5 While I couldn't get a real VT, I did get a Wyse-185,W4 and that works perfectly.  So it's the Wyse-285 that= has some problem (whose exact nature is still unknown to me).p? Hope this arcane little piece of info helps somebody else, too.r' Thanks, everybody, for recommendations,y John (forkosh@panix.com)   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 09:36:18 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>l< Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)H Message-ID: <y4y9ne46bx.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   L > That's probably correct, and I suspect that he mostly left things like theK > file system to Andy and the initial native RMS code to Chris and Paulina.dN > But the core of the kernel was absolutely under his thumb, every line of it.  N I have the impression the MMG code was designed and written by one person withM a very individual coding style...it took the Alpha port to undo that monster.    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Sep 2001 16:35:29 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack)@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit+ Message-ID: <9o58oh$i2c$1@news.btv.ibm.com>r  O In article <9o0n3f$j9d$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:  >dK >As Lynn just pointed out, there can be an availability impact of *planned*PI >down-time required for system upgrades with the Stratus/Tandem redundantPE >approach that can be avoided by a clustering approach if it supports-G >'rolling upgrades'.  So clustering a pair of such internally-redundant5I >systems together is required to get the best of all possible worlds withr >today's hardware. >D >...L >Clustering two such systems together would obtain the benefits of clusteredJ >FT nodes using only 1/4 to 1/3 as much hardware (and, presumably, power).E >Given the assembly complexity of triple- and quad-redundant hardware J >designs, it would likely be considerably cheaper as well - as long as theA >up-front design costs could be amortized over sufficient volume.   F It might be interesting to bring up IBM's experimental FT/6000 system,I demonstrated at a "Power Academy" exhibit (for ISVs etc.) in January 1996 F (in San Francisco).  The computing core (processors and caches up to aH moderately large L3) was triplicated (>200% FT overhead) but main memoryG was striped (25% FT overhead), so that the cost overhead for full HW FTeI for *large* memory systems would be significantly less (perhaps only 30%)-G than fail-over clustering (~100%) -- with no fail-over delays, and full H no-downtime upgradeability.  Software reliability was ensured by having I a small hypervisor in control of the hardware; this hypervisor was itselfnI capable of modular no-downtime upgrading.  The operating system (AIX) waslG not considered FT (compared to the HW) -- but it had near-instantaneoussI checkpoint boot (3 seconds, with a goal of sub-second reboot capability).bK The idea was that a reliable application (say, a transaction manager) could K be written to exploit low-latency checkpointing to persistent FT memory, so H that it could restart in seconds from its last checkpoint after a rebootC (possibly triggered by a heartbeat or other performance monitor).  s  K The project was stopped, unfortunately.  I can imagine no-downtime softwarehM upgrades by building a new checkpoint boot image offline (for a new AIX), and L by maintaining a compatible application checkpoint structure when rolling in) a new version of the primary application.    The hardware was described in:  D  M. Abbott et al.  "Durable Memory RS/6000 System Design", Digest ofF  the 24th International Symposium on Fault-Tolerant Computing Systems,  pp 441-423, June 1994..   The software was described in:  G  F. Eskesen et al.  "Software Exploitation of a Fault-Tolerant ComputeraD  with a Large Memory", Digest of the 28th International Symposium on9  Fault-Tolerant Computing Systems, pp 336-345, June 1998.    Michel.M   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Sep 2001 16:50:50 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack)@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit+ Message-ID: <9o59la$od8$1@news.btv.ibm.com>I  O In article <9o144d$r53$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:i >a' >[nice comparison of TMR vs clustering]e  K >What I was suggesting was replacing the TMR approach with board-local (and E >chip-local) checks that would provide equivalent guarantees that anyeI >hardware failure would be noticed immediately so that the board would be D >shut down (a 'fail-stop' mechanism) before the failure could do any  >externally-visible damage.  ...  G This has basically been the approach used in IBM's S/390 (now z-series)DG mainframes.  Sometimes microcode can even recover transparently (moving J the last instruction checkpoint to a spare processor sharing the L2 cache,E possible because of the store-through L1); for more severe damage thenC operating system's machine-check handler gets involved in recovery. I There were several articles about this about 2 years ago in IBM's Journala of Research and Development.   Michel.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:00:33 GMTs+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>0@ Subject: Re: HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit) Message-ID: <ud74piwhl.fsf@earthlink.net>s  " hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) writes: > M > The project was stopped, unfortunately.  I can imagine no-downtime softwarepO > upgrades by building a new checkpoint boot image offline (for a new AIX), andsN > by maintaining a compatible application checkpoint structure when rolling in+ > a new version of the primary application.  >   E i once did something similar but at the application level for airlineeD res application ..  i.e. prebuilt a large part of the image AND alsoE did rolling cluster cut-over (one of the ten "impossible" things thateE was suppose to be addressed was existing several hour cut-over time).0   random refs:8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#29 Mainframes & Unix8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#31 Mainframes & UnixG http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)oM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#153 Uptime (was Re: Q: S/390 on PowerPC?)ny http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#61 64 bit X86 ugliness (Re: Williamette trace cache (Re: First view of Willamette)) ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE? D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IPD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#74 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?   -- -H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:21:36 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)e Subject: Re: I hate Compaq3 Message-ID: <EZKMwRIpBfxn@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  h In article <3b98c8a8$1$lllp186$mr2ice@nntp.mindspring.com>, yyyc186@illegaltospam.mindspring.com writes:6 > In <9n9qnp$f8b$1@nnrp2.phx.gblx.net>, on 09/06/2001 = >    at 11:50 PM, "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com> said:l > 2 >><yyyc186@illegaltospam.mindspring.com> wrote ...Q >>> >> And despite all of that they went with Intel...a company that is dead laste3 >>> >> in the world of chip fabrication technology.  >>>K@ >>> >Where would you say they stand in terms of chip fabrication >>> >infrastructure? >>> N >>> They don't have any infrastructure with respect to the new technologies inK >>> place at either IBM or AMD.  What they have is a large capacity to turn2 >>> out very dated chips.f > H >>Ah, it looks like it's anonymous clueless troll season again. [ Either5 >>that or 0.13 micron (drawn) copper processes becameb: >> "dated" without me noticing. And that seems unlikely. ] > H > No, just clueless pompous ass season again.  Eject your lead booty andL > check out the specs of AMD's new (<1year old) plant and the specs of IBM'sL > copper.  More importantly check out the successfull stamping percentages. E > Intel's copper process is turning out a lot of landfill fodder. >--X  D There _is_ one good thing about Intel's rejection rate, it increasesD solar cell production.  According to the company that installed the H solar cells on our house, the panels were made from Intel's fab rejects.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:25:07 +0200n$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> Subject: Javac on VMS  Message-ID: <3ba5dd95$1@hcwe67>f   Hello,   we are using   GDC006>java -version java version "1.2.2-3"L Classic VM (build J2SDK.v.1.2.2-3:10/31/2000-08:52, native threads, jit_122)   on VMS 7.2-1 AXP  L For some reason the java compiler seems to return a error status, even if it compiled succesfully:d  % GDC006>javac AbleitungInSIC_Bank.javao GDC006>sh sym $statust   $STATUS == "%X10000000"s  ) This disturbs the use inside an mms file.c3 Comping with -verbose shows now further informationi  
 any ideas?   Jakob Erberm   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 08:49:45 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o Subject: Re: Javac on VMSo3 Message-ID: <dErCaImxb2p3@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  F In article <3ba5dd95$1@hcwe67>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> writes: > ' > GDC006>javac AbleitungInSIC_Bank.java  > GDC006>sh sym $statusg >   $STATUS == "%X10000000"3 >   @    There are lots of problems using Java with MMS.  The above isB    probably due to the relationship between Java, C++, and C.  TheC    current standard for C states that returning 0 means the status n<    is good, 1 means the status is bad, and other numbers areC    implementation dependent.  An intentional error causes javac to ,    return %X10000001.   E    The 1 near the left is the inhibit message bit which tells DCL notwH    to print "%NONAME-W-NOMSG, Message number 00000000" after success, orE    "%SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completion" after error (that     would be confusing).   G    You'll probably have to tell MMS to ignore errors and use a rule foraE    java compilation that checks $status and acts on it according to C     conventions.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:06:45 +0200d$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> Subject: Re: Javac on VMS  Message-ID: <3ba61185$1@hcwe67>/   Hi Bob,k  H thanks a lot for your help. For the time beeing mms/ignore=error is good
 enough for mes   best regards   Jakobc    @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag- news:dErCaImxb2p3@eisner.encompasserve.org... H > In article <3ba5dd95$1@hcwe67>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> writes: > >p) > > GDC006>javac AbleitungInSIC_Bank.javaf > > GDC006>sh sym $status  > >   $STATUS == "%X10000000"- > >- >-B >    There are lots of problems using Java with MMS.  The above isD >    probably due to the relationship between Java, C++, and C.  TheD >    current standard for C states that returning 0 means the status> >    is good, 1 means the status is bad, and other numbers areD >    implementation dependent.  An intentional error causes javac to >    return %X10000001.o > G >    The 1 near the left is the inhibit message bit which tells DCL not0J >    to print "%NONAME-W-NOMSG, Message number 00000000" after success, orG >    "%SYSTEM-S-NORMAL, normal successful completion" after error (that  >    would be confusing).S >TI >    You'll probably have to tell MMS to ignore errors and use a rule forAG >    java compilation that checks $status and acts on it according to Cy >    conventions.e >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:24:21 -0400o  From: Kuff@Tessco.Com (Hal Kuff) Subject: Re: memory channelsO Message-ID: <40B15BAD6B3DDAE7.72C3AB2D7934B677.5950F798FFE36AE2@lp.airnews.net>   D Does the memory chanel II hub support more than one cluster per hub?      J In article <MOEAJKGGEIMGCCPEPJBHGEPGFIAA.arturo.saavedra@wcom.com>, arturo* saavedra <arturo.saavedra@wcom.com> wrote:  N > They are no longer supported.. we have tested a beta fix.. which did not fixI > the issue.. so we are hopeful that compaq is close to a new driver thatE > we'll try out shortly. >  >  >  > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Tom Simpson [mailto:simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net]* > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 8:44 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh > Subject: Re: memory channeln >  > N > We had many unexplained system crashes on our 2 node ES40 cluster, about oneG > a month.  The crash dump analysis always seemed to indicate something L > related to memory channel operations, but nothing solid.  The hardware wasM > replaced, still problems.  It got to the point that management was ready tosM > throw Compaq out and find another hardware vendor.  Finally Compaq admitted J > that there were other customers with similar configurations have similarN > problems.  They purchased and installed a memory channel hub and we have not > had a crash since last March.e > K > Although I have not checked, I would expect that "hubless" configurationsiK > are no longer on the supported configuration list (at least for OpenVMS).' > 
 > Regards, > Toml > 9 > "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl> wrote in messaget7 > news:3ba3afe6$0$65636$e4fe514c@newszilla.xs4all.nl...h> > > "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net> wrote in messageD > > news:VXLo7.7020$na5.1625389@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net...K > > > I hope your memory channel configuration includes a hub...  Direct MCe > > > connection > > > is a problem.r > > >  > > > Regards,	 > > > Tomt > >dN > > Could you explain a little bit more? It's the first time that I have heard
 > > of it! > >o
 > > Bart ZornM > >  > >  > >t   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:46:08 +0000 (UTC)e' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)o Subject: Re: memory channels+ Message-ID: <9o5ct0$gj3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   v In article <h02p7.271$d44.397345@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net>, "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net> writes:M >We had many unexplained system crashes on our 2 node ES40 cluster, about one F >a month.  The crash dump analysis always seemed to indicate somethingK >related to memory channel operations, but nothing solid.  The hardware was L >replaced, still problems.  It got to the point that management was ready toL >throw Compaq out and find another hardware vendor.  Finally Compaq admittedI >that there were other customers with similar configurations have similartM >problems.  They purchased and installed a memory channel hub and we have nota >had a crash since last March. > J >Although I have not checked, I would expect that "hubless" configurationsJ >are no longer on the supported configuration list (at least for OpenVMS). > 	 >Regards,s >Tom  M I am running a hubless memory channel configuration with two 2100s. Never hadh
 any problems.-  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 17:33:43 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o( Subject: Re: More VMS Wish List Items...H Message-ID: <y4iteh6dd4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  + martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) writes:.  D > Fix command line editing for long commands, so that the arrow keysH > work across multiple lines. This has been a problem ever since command2 > line recall and editing was introduced, in V4.0.  9 Emphatically yes! If almost every unix shell can do it...w   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:51:59 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>4 Subject: Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3' Message-ID: <3BA58F7F.539D0893@home.nl>a  L Support for the 7895 controller was mentioned on the roll-out schemes AFAIK. I do remember reading about it.0   Island Computers wrote:c  % > I was trying to figure this one outn > K > Was messing around with a VMS7.3 S ALpha DS20e on Friday, and thought foroJ > the hell of it I would take out the KZPCA Ultra2 Controller and plug the9 > disks into the onboard Ultra1 Adaptec (7895) controller  >w > Lo and behold it booted??? >e' > When did support for this happen ????o >f > -- > David Turner >a > We sell Alpha systems & parts  > http://www.islandco.comw > sales@islandco.com > Island Computers US Corp.r > 2700 Gregory Streete > Savannah GA 31404s > Tel: 912 447 6622t > Fax: 912 201 0096  > ICQ#: 130698221    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:22:11 GMTi1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>f4 Subject: Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.32 Message-ID: <3BA5F972.23A205F7@clarityconnect.com>  C The 7895 is only supported on the DS20E with a single internal tapei9 unit.  Don't call us when/if your 7895 based disk fails. aF VMS712_SCSI-V0200 (now superseded by VMS712_SCSI-V0300) introduced theA 7895 support.  It is expected that in the future the 7895 will be  replaced by a 7899.c   Dirk Munk wrote: > N > Support for the 7895 controller was mentioned on the roll-out schemes AFAIK.! > I do remember reading about it.h >  > Island Computers wrote:t > ' > > I was trying to figure this one outa > >eM > > Was messing around with a VMS7.3 S ALpha DS20e on Friday, and thought fordL > > the hell of it I would take out the KZPCA Ultra2 Controller and plug the; > > disks into the onboard Ultra1 Adaptec (7895) controller9 > >  > > Lo and behold it booted??? > >j) > > When did support for this happen ????( > >r > > -- > > David Turner > >$! > > We sell Alpha systems & partsc > > http://www.islandco.comt > > sales@islandco.com > > Island Computers US Corp.n > > 2700 Gregory Streetc > > Savannah GA 31404m > > Tel: 912 447 6622w > > Fax: 912 201 0096t > > ICQ#: 130698221S   -- TD Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:58:48 -0400h- From: "www.islandco.com" <sales@islandco.com>c4 Subject: Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3/ Message-ID: <tqbvs1lr2pgg7f@news.supernews.com>l  7 Maybe only the tape is supported by the disk works fineg  I Sounds like another way for Compaq to pad their prices - force someone tonB buy an unnecessary option - whoa - never heard of that before !!!!     DT    < "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message, news:3BA5F972.23A205F7@clarityconnect.com...E > The 7895 is only supported on the DS20E with a single internal taper: > unit.  Don't call us when/if your 7895 based disk fails.H > VMS712_SCSI-V0200 (now superseded by VMS712_SCSI-V0300) introduced theC > 7895 support.  It is expected that in the future the 7895 will beb > replaced by a 7899.e >p > Dirk Munk wrote: > >vI > > Support for the 7895 controller was mentioned on the roll-out schemesp AFAIK.# > > I do remember reading about it.e > >h > > Island Computers wrote:  > >o) > > > I was trying to figure this one outl > > >aK > > > Was messing around with a VMS7.3 S ALpha DS20e on Friday, and thoughto forrJ > > > the hell of it I would take out the KZPCA Ultra2 Controller and plug thes= > > > disks into the onboard Ultra1 Adaptec (7895) controllera > > >a  > > > Lo and behold it booted??? > > >i+ > > > When did support for this happen ????- > > >  > > > -- > > > David Turner > > >,# > > > We sell Alpha systems & partss > > > http://www.islandco.com  > > > sales@islandco.com > > > Island Computers US Corp.r > > > 2700 Gregory Streetr > > > Savannah GA 31404u > > > Tel: 912 447 6622- > > > Fax: 912 201 0096d > > > ICQ#: 130698221e >o > --F > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY/ > - jilly@clarityconnect.com - Brett Bodine fane- > - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com - since 1975 or soa- > - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:08:41 -0400y5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>24 Subject: Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.30 Message-ID: <Ztnp7.264$YP.9942@news.cpqcorp.net>  K No.  The initial code that was done for it was not a "complete" job.  Don'ty7 complain about performance, or any other problem on it.,    % www.islandco.com wrote in message ...-8 >Maybe only the tape is supported by the disk works fine >wJ >Sounds like another way for Compaq to pad their prices - force someone toC >buy an unnecessary option - whoa - never heard of that before !!!!e >o >d >DT1 >r >.= >"Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in messagem- >news:3BA5F972.23A205F7@clarityconnect.com...uF >> The 7895 is only supported on the DS20E with a single internal tape; >> unit.  Don't call us when/if your 7895 based disk fails.eI >> VMS712_SCSI-V0200 (now superseded by VMS712_SCSI-V0300) introduced the D >> 7895 support.  It is expected that in the future the 7895 will be >> replaced by a 7899. >> >> Dirk Munk wrote:s >> >J >> > Support for the 7895 controller was mentioned on the roll-out schemes >AFAIK.o$ >> > I do remember reading about it. >> > >> > Island Computers wrote: >> >* >> > > I was trying to figure this one out >> > >L >> > > Was messing around with a VMS7.3 S ALpha DS20e on Friday, and thought >forK >> > > the hell of it I would take out the KZPCA Ultra2 Controller and plugu >the> >> > > disks into the onboard Ultra1 Adaptec (7895) controller >> > >! >> > > Lo and behold it booted???- >> > >, >> > > When did support for this happen ???? >> > >	 >> > > --l >> > > David Turnerj >> > >$ >> > > We sell Alpha systems & parts >> > > http://www.islandco.com >> > > sales@islandco.com   >> > > Island Computers US Corp. >> > > 2700 Gregory Street >> > > Savannah GA 31404 >> > > Tel: 912 447 6622 >> > > Fax: 912 201 0096 >> > > ICQ#: 130698221 >> >> --fG >> Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NYc0 >> - jilly@clarityconnect.com - Brett Bodine fan. >> - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com - since 1975 or so. >> - http://www.jilly.baka.com               - >i >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:00:12 +0530i$ From: "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> Subject: OT : XWD on VMS0 Message-ID: <p0mp7.259$YP.9684@news.cpqcorp.net>   Hi,u  J I am trying to run xwd to capture the screen of VMS machine. I am not able/ to run it with different option. But it failed.mL I searched for help. But of no much use. Would you please help me in running5 this application? What are the options (only on VMS)?#  
 With regards,e	 Upadhyayao   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 08:55:19 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: OT : XWD on VMS3 Message-ID: <SyVNs0n8Vcuc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <p0mp7.259$YP.9684@news.cpqcorp.net>, "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes:o  L > I am trying to run xwd to capture the screen of VMS machine. I am not able1 > to run it with different option. But it failed. N > I searched for help. But of no much use. Would you please help me in running7 > this application? What are the options (only on VMS)?o  E    What makes you think xwd has any VMS specific options?  When I ask<    (mcr decw$utils:xwd -?)  	    I get:.  L    usage: NODE$DKA200:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.DECW.UTILS]XWD.EXE;1K    [-display host:dpy] [-debug] [-help] [{-root|-id <id>|-font <font>|-namet?    <name>}] [-nobdrs] [-out <file>] [-xy] [-add value] [-frame].  F    which is the same set of options I get on UNIX.  Generally you need5    to pipe xwd output into xpr and print the results.e   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 18:09:47 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)u Subject: Re: OT : XWD on VMS! Message-ID: <poWTtRk3SiTS@gaelic>B  1 In article <p0mp7.259$YP.9684@news.cpqcorp.net>, 2& "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes:  L > I am trying to run xwd to capture the screen of VMS machine. I am not able1 > to run it with different option. But it failed.eN > I searched for help. But of no much use. Would you please help me in running7 > this application? What are the options (only on VMS)?   L There is a better (IMHO) utility for screen capture, XWPICK.  Take a look at  # http://decwarch.free.fr/xutils.htmlf  
 Best Regards,e   Patrick  --O ===============================================================================eO pmoreau@cena.dgac.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)c4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================7   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:50:44 +0000s  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com" Subject: OT Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACA.00518E8C.00@quegw01.btyp>X  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    I Hmmm. Yes, I think I'm an idiot in as much as I've somehow replied to one-N message and attached another, which makes what I've said look a bit odd in the& context of what was included below it.  L Although let's hope that those who you wish to see engage in dialogue have a9 longer string than yourself when misunderstandings occur.   P And because I have lost both a brother and a cousin to terrorism in this countryM I feel I can ask the questions that I did. You may not agree, and I guess youv won't.   Steve Spires        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/14/2001 07:05:05 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)iJ From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 14 September 2001, 7:05 p.m.   Re: World Trade Center          - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagei) news:00256AC7.005A00D6.00@quegw01.btyp... H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza- >M > K > Would you like to see the same policy that is active in the UK, where the H > government has assumed a stance of appeasement to terrorism in Ireland [untilK > this situation occurred and now Blair is giving us the spiel about facings downL > terrorism] whereby hundreds of terrorists have been released carte blanche fromI > prisons [on both sides] and where one side has done nothing to meet its8 side of7K > the bargain, and in fact gives us a nudge with a bomb every now and againe to tryJ > and extract something more for itself, which now we've started down that path( > can only end up with a united Ireland? >aK > If America took the same path as we have, then you would end up with [eg]b binr. > Laden holding a position in your government. >AJ > If you believe that the reason for this is the existence of Israel, then the0G > underlying reasons for the attack won't take place until Israel is nob more. Is > that want you want?r  K If you can still ask such questions after reading the post you quoted belowtG (let alone many others in this thread), you're an idiot.  If you didn't,L bother to read the post before responding to it, you're an idiot.  In eitherJ case, I don't really see the point in trying to carry on a discussion with you.  F Should you wish to try again with something sensible, I'll reconsider.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:56:04 +0100p( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK( Message-ID: <3BA5BAA4.479B8D0@127.0.0.1>   Daza wrote:t  E > You can get the Radio show on CD from www.bbcshop.com.  Look in thee' > Science Fiction section (of course!).   A I found physical copies in the "Spoken word" sections of my localf Waterstones.  E at GBP 15.99 it is in a tri-fold cardboard case, and does state on it9F "previously released" so I would imagine it is identical to the copy I4 have. The packaging is maybe a little disappointing.  G However, if you can't find the BBC will ship worldwide for you, I thinka waterstones can, so:H http://www.waterstones.co.uk/ selected the AUDIO section, and I found itG on the second page on a match from a 'book' search on the word "hitch".r  A Alan also said in this thread you can listen to the radio 4 audios stream.  -- m( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:43:23 -0400m4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>4 Subject: Re: OT: Hitch Hikers Guide on Radio 4 in UK4 Message-ID: <3BA5EFEB.4070005@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Zane H. Healy wrote:+ > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:i > G >>(Q: why is full series of Monty Python available is US on DVD and nota >>UK?) >> > A > If it makes you feel any better compare how A&E is milking "ThelA > Prisoner"  vs. how it's availble in the UK.  I couldn't believec= > it when I found out that in order to do 17 episodes they'ret7 > taking 10 DVD's (that's 5 sets at about $35 a pop)!     I The Prisoner seems to be available in a two part DVD collection at every uG discount store that offers DVDs that I have been at for the last month s< in the U.S.  Prices seem in line with the other collections.   -JohnB Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:47:18 +0200h& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>$ Subject: OT: WTC and interventionism* Message-ID: <3BA62916.F7D40684@dplanet.ch>  H I was looking for another aricle on inteventionism today when I stumbled across this one at URL  % http://www.iraqwar.org/theirsours.htm   G Note in particular that comments by Pat Buchanan who was a presidential' candidate a few years back.h      & Some Blame Terror on Interventionism =     By George Gedda- Associated Press Writer : Thursday, Dec. 23, 1999; 1:23 a.m. EST   (WASHINGTON POST)  J WASHINGTON =96=96 Clinton administration officials need look no further t= han@A their own foreign policy in their search for explanations for thesC specter of possible end-of-the-millennium terrorist attacks againste. Americans, some foreign policy analysts say. =     =2E...  H Ivan Eland, a defense specialist at the libertarian Cato Institute, saysG the unprecedented concern among Americans about terrorism is the resultlE of the "profligate U.S. interference in the business of other nations  and groups." =    C "What does the average American get from U.S. meddling in far-flungyG corners of the world that do not remotely affect U.S. vital interests?"tD Eland asks. "A much lighter wallet and an increasing uneasiness whenH traveling abroad or even when participating in large public celebrations at home." =c    H Reform Party presidential candidate Pat Buchanan also subscribes to this view. =o    J "Have we not suffered enough terrorist atrocities =96 from the massacre o= fbG our Marines (1983 in Lebanon), to Pan Am 103 (1988), to the World TradesE Center (1993), to the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar (es Salaam, J 1998) =96 to awaken our elites to the reality that interventionism is the=  G incubator of terrorism?" Buchanan said in a speech last month. "Or will:G it take some cataclysmic act of violence on U.S. soil to finally awakenu0 our gamesmen to the costs of global hegemony?" =     =2E... etc.u       John McLeani  ? PS.  I had to look up the word hegemony.  It means unreasonable ; influence over others (people, organisations or countries).e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:41:57 +0200y& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>( Subject: OT: WTC and who may be to blame* Message-ID: <3BA627D5.A52DF559@dplanet.ch>  2 An article from The Times (of London) today at URL  9 http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001322468,00.html3     Bomb killer is prime suspect" BY DOMINIC KENNEDY AND ROGER BOYES    F THE terrorist warlord behind the kidnapping of Terry Waite has emergedB as one of those who could be involved in the attacks on America. =    C Once one of America's most-wanted men, Imad Mugniyeh is a fanaticalhG hijacking expert whose high-pitched voice struck dread into the Western E hostages in Lebanon. British intelligence agents have been ordered tob? investigate his contacts and movements, The Times has learnt. =     C President Bush is understood to have told Tony Blair last week thatwB elements in Iran are being investigated for their possible role. =    F Mugniyeh, who fled to Tehran from Lebanon to escape CIA, was describedF in US Justice Department documents last year as having developed closeH links to Osama bin Laden. The Senate heard in 1995 that Mugniyeh went to= Iran to organise bomb attacks in America to retaliate for theMC prosecution of a sheikh over the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing. =i    F One of the founders of the Hezbollah movement, he blew up the American> Embassy in Lebanon with a lorry-bomb in 1983. He then sent twoC lorry-bombs to destroy the American and French military barracks in F Beirut, killing nearly 300 people. He was named in US indictments over( the hijacking of a TWA flight in 1985. =    
 =85 etc. =      C Maybe the rush for bin Laden (who now seems convicted by a kangaroo  court) is a bit hasty.       John Mclean    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:48:54 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)u, Subject: Re: OT: WTC and who may be to blame3 Message-ID: <gxBjUdE3gzk2@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  S In article <3BA627D5.A52DF559@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:  > E > Maybe the rush for bin Laden (who now seems convicted by a kangaroou > court) is a bit hasty. >   @ 	Probably not.  He appears however to be at the top of the list  	though.   				Robe   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:22:40 GMT9* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <3BA596D9.BF30FC1B@prodigy.net>d  H We put most of these scumbags into business, bin Laden included.  Now we have to correct those mistakes.t   Phil Mendelsohn wrote: > + > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, John Saunders wrote:  > @ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > > news:3BA504C8.43BDC5D2@fsi.net... 2 > > > How can we back down now without encouragingL > > > others to commit crimes against humanity similar to those which caused5 > > > the sanctions to be imposed in the first place?  > > P > > Well, actually David, we could blame Iraq for funding the WTC attack, finishN > > the job of mopping it up and disposing of its current government, and then. > > we could drop the sanctions. Works for me. > E > That could get messy, when it is shown that the U.S. originally setrK > Hussein up in business in the first place, sometime around the deposition0 > of the Shah of Iran. >  > --> > I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,9 > but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:10:36 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o4b3e$f54$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA504C8.43BDC5D2@fsi.net...y > Bill Todd wrote: > > @ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > > news:3BA4DFBE.D6C86E39@fsi.net...d   ...   K > > > 2. The sole blame for this lies with the recalcitrant despot dictator F > > > who holds his own ambitions higher than the lives of those he is trusted  > > > to govern. > >lL > > Any credit or blame for the effects of the sanctions lies with those who > > impose them. >eI > By that logic, the victim is to blame for the punishment imposed in anyeI > crime where the perp.'s are prosecuted and convicted. Sorry - don't buy- > it.l  K That's because your logic is - well, not logic by any definition I know of.r& There are 4 distinct parties involved:  K 1.  Saddam, the perp.  Though he's the theoretical target of the sanctions, ' they aren't particularly bothering him.-  G 2.  Kuwait, the original victim that got us involved.  Nobody's blamingnI them, though they are the sole identifiable beneficiary of the sanctions,7+ since reparations come out of that process.r  K 3.  The U.N. (originally) and now the U.S. (as the main remaining proponent J of the sanctions).  They imposed what they thought at the time would be anE appropriate effective punishment, but it has turned out to be neithertK approproate nor effective.  The blame for continuing to impose them despiteeJ their ineffectiveness in accomplishing their purpose and the active damageH they are doing to innocent parties rests squarely on those continuing to? impose them (who, by the way aren't 'the victim' in any sense).t  C 4.  The Iraqi people primarily being hurt by the sanctions (not therH military, nor the primary non-military influences in the country).  MoreK victims - first of Saddam, and now of the U.S.-backed U.N. sanctions.  They7F have no more control over their government than they ever did:  it's a military dictatorship.   > G > In Iraq's case, Saddam alone is to blame for the imposition of the UN H > sanctions as well as their effects on his people, since he has neither* > abdicated nor capitulated to UN demands.  F That logic worked only early-on, when the possibility existed that theL sanctions would generate an uprising.  You may have forgotten that the earlyK supposition was that they would generate a *military* uprising, which couldtI have succeeded.  Unfortunately, the military decided to stick with SaddamdJ (possibly because the sanctions didn't affect the military all that much -J reflecting a miscalculation on our part, but an understandable one *had we! not stubbornly persisted in it*).m  H At that point the possibility of an uprising evaporated, and with it theF reason for the sanctions.  The responsibility for any damage caused byD continuing the sanctions *after* that point is ours:  we should haveJ reassessed the situation to find some other approach that would *at least*> have been  a) more effective *or*  b) less counter-productive.    The people can choose to riseF > up against him if they feel contrary to the way he does, but insteadH > have chosen to endure their leader's punishment and share it with him.  K What they have chosen to do is not commit suicide by throwing themselves up.F against a military establishment that remains strong and has more thanJ adequately demonstrated its readiness to massacre any citizens who presume to be difficult.  J To blame them for not doing what we did not do (get rid of Saddam) when weL had a far better opportunity than they have, and for not fighting suicidallyJ against a military force that we had a far easier opportunity to eliminate= and did not, is self-righteously hypocritical in the extreme.-  C > Therefore, one can only assume either or both of two things: theyPF > genuinely agree with him, or have been forced to submit to his will.  K Try door number two.  They don't have the *option* of disagreeing, at leastr not in any visible manner.   >i> > > We may have had good reasons originally for believing thatI > > imposing them would result in a change in Iraq's government.  We wereo provedC > > wrong long ago, and any reason for continuing them disappeared.  ><! > When did the reasons disappear?I  H When the chance that they would spark a military uprising disappeared atJ most a few years after Desert Storm ended, since Iraq has certainly seemed pretty stable since then.-  !  Has Saddam abdicated? Has SaddamuJ > capitulated to UN demands? If the answer to either is "no", then I wouldA > say that the "reason for continuing them" remains undiminished.   H The main reason for continuing them was to foment internal dissent and aI military coup against Saddam.  Unless I missed it, that didn't happen andjC has no obvious prospect of happening.  The reason for the sanctionstA disappeared when they weren't effective in causing that to occur.o   >o > > >eL > > > Saddam knows how to lift the sanctions - but he never will. The deathsL > > > and plight of his people weigh on his shoulders alone - no one else's. > >tI > > That makes about as much sense as saying that the blame for Tuesday'sh attackK > > falls on the shoulders of U.S. leaders for not being more responsive tot theX! > > demands of the outside world.c >cI > ...but it isn't that what you've been proposing? ...that we are somehow=G > to blame for not "being more responsive to the demands of the outsidee	 > world"?   ) No, that is not what I've been proposing.r  J People are responsible for their actions, period.  We are to blame for theJ negative effects of sanctions, because those sanctions are our actions, noI one else's.  Tuesday's terrorists are to blame for the deaths they caused L because they, no one else, caused them.  If we trample others in our pursuitB of those (or any other) terrorists because we failed to make everyF reasonable effort not to, we will be to blame because we, no one else,- killed those others in our unnecessary haste.-   > L > > We're not punishing Saddam, we're punishing most severely precisely thatG > > segment of the Iraqi people with the least ability to influence (or. change)  > > their leadership.  > @ > That is the fault of one man, and one man only. By refusing toG > capitulate, and by inciting his people against the UN, Saddam remainsnJ > defiant - and the sanctions remain. Cause -> effect. So simple, even *I*8 > can understand it! ...and that's pretty damned simple!  - No, it's just you who are simple.  And wrong.a   > F > The members of the UN are not now, never have been and never will beH > responsible for Saddam's incursions into Kuwait. The members of the UND > are not now, never have been and never will be responsible for theE > effects of sanctions imposed on Iraq as a result of such aggressionm; > against a neighbor country which posed no threat to Iraq.C  J The sanctions were originally instituted as an immediate, and appropriate,C U.N. reaction to the invasion.  After Iraq's defeat, sanctions weretJ continued to attempt to enforce compliance with the cease-fire resolutionsK (including weapons-inspection provisions and reparations to Kuwait), not as I punishment for the invasion, and the U.N. position was that they would bepK lifted when destruction of weapons of mass destruction had been verified by I the inspectors.  But the U.S. position was that they would continue untilnK Saddam was removed from power - and since they long ago proved insufficienthJ to cause that, any rationale that might have at least somewhat compensated@ for the damage they've done to the Iraqi population disappeared.   > G > I will remain intractable on those points, so best not to pursue themi
 > further.  L You can remain ignorant if you want to, but will continue to be corrected if. you try to propagate this ignorance to others.   >A< > > However much sense it may seemed to have made initially, > > it's clearly wrong now.n > I > Why is it "clearly wrong"? How can we back down now without encouraging H > others to commit crimes against humanity similar to those which caused1 > the sanctions to be imposed in the first place?   K 'How can we back down now' precisely captures the idiocy:  we don't want tooB admit we screwed up, despite its obviousness to most of the world.   >d: > Backing down would be both clearly and inarguably wrong.  L What's clearly and inarguably wrong is to continue to pursue a failed policyJ that does actual damage to others rather than admit our mistake and figure  out what we *ought* to be doing.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:10:36 -04000' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>.( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o4b6f$f5b$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA504C8.43BDC5D2@fsi.net...i > Bill Todd wrote: > > @ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > > news:3BA4DFBE.D6C86E39@fsi.net....   ...G  K > > > 2. The sole blame for this lies with the recalcitrant despot dictator F > > > who holds his own ambitions higher than the lives of those he is trusteds > > > to govern. > >iL > > Any credit or blame for the effects of the sanctions lies with those who > > impose them. >,I > By that logic, the victim is to blame for the punishment imposed in any I > crime where the perp.'s are prosecuted and convicted. Sorry - don't buyr > it.n  K That's because your logic is - well, not logic by any definition I know of. & There are 4 distinct parties involved:  K 1.  Saddam, the perp.  Though he's the theoretical target of the sanctions, ' they aren't particularly bothering him.   G 2.  Kuwait, the original victim that got us involved.  Nobody's blamingdI them, though they are the sole identifiable beneficiary of the sanctions, + since reparations come out of that process..  K 3.  The U.N. (originally) and now the U.S. (as the main remaining proponentVJ of the sanctions).  They imposed what they thought at the time would be anE appropriate effective punishment, but it has turned out to be neitheruK approproate nor effective.  The blame for continuing to impose them despitetJ their ineffectiveness in accomplishing their purpose and the active damageH they are doing to innocent parties rests squarely on those continuing to? impose them (who, by the way aren't 'the victim' in any sense).t  C 4.  The Iraqi people primarily being hurt by the sanctions (not thesH military, nor the primary non-military influences in the country).  MoreK victims - first of Saddam, and now of the U.S.-backed U.N. sanctions.  TheyCF have no more control over their government than they ever did:  it's a military dictatorship.   >oG > In Iraq's case, Saddam alone is to blame for the imposition of the UNwH > sanctions as well as their effects on his people, since he has neither* > abdicated nor capitulated to UN demands.  F That logic worked only early-on, when the possibility existed that theL sanctions would generate an uprising.  You may have forgotten that the earlyK supposition was that they would generate a *military* uprising, which couldeI have succeeded.  Unfortunately, the military decided to stick with SaddampJ (possibly because the sanctions didn't affect the military all that much -J reflecting a miscalculation on our part, but an understandable one *had we! not stubbornly persisted in it*).   H At that point the possibility of an uprising evaporated, and with it theF reason for the sanctions.  The responsibility for any damage caused byD continuing the sanctions *after* that point is ours:  we should haveJ reassessed the situation to find some other approach that would *at least*> have been  a) more effective *or*  b) less counter-productive.    The people can choose to riseF > up against him if they feel contrary to the way he does, but insteadH > have chosen to endure their leader's punishment and share it with him.  K What they have chosen to do is not commit suicide by throwing themselves upeF against a military establishment that remains strong and has more thanJ adequately demonstrated its readiness to massacre any citizens who presume to be difficult.  J To blame them for not doing what we did not do (get rid of Saddam) when weL had a far better opportunity than they have, and for not fighting suicidallyJ against a military force that we had a far easier opportunity to eliminate= and did not, is self-righteously hypocritical in the extreme.g  C > Therefore, one can only assume either or both of two things: theytF > genuinely agree with him, or have been forced to submit to his will.  K Try door number two.  They don't have the *option* of disagreeing, at least  not in any visible manner.   >0> > > We may have had good reasons originally for believing thatI > > imposing them would result in a change in Iraq's government.  We weret provedC > > wrong long ago, and any reason for continuing them disappeared.i >/! > When did the reasons disappear?k  H When the chance that they would spark a military uprising disappeared atJ most a few years after Desert Storm ended, since Iraq has certainly seemed pretty stable since then.e  !  Has Saddam abdicated? Has SaddamoJ > capitulated to UN demands? If the answer to either is "no", then I wouldA > say that the "reason for continuing them" remains undiminished.i  H The main reason for continuing them was to foment internal dissent and aI military coup against Saddam.  Unless I missed it, that didn't happen andnC has no obvious prospect of happening.  The reason for the sanctionseA disappeared when they weren't effective in causing that to occur.l   >  > > >fL > > > Saddam knows how to lift the sanctions - but he never will. The deathsL > > > and plight of his people weigh on his shoulders alone - no one else's. > >9I > > That makes about as much sense as saying that the blame for Tuesday'si attackK > > falls on the shoulders of U.S. leaders for not being more responsive to  the ! > > demands of the outside world.v >nI > ...but it isn't that what you've been proposing? ...that we are somehoweG > to blame for not "being more responsive to the demands of the outsidea	 > world"?   ) No, that is not what I've been proposing.e  J People are responsible for their actions, period.  We are to blame for theJ negative effects of sanctions, because those sanctions are our actions, noI one else's.  Tuesday's terrorists are to blame for the deaths they caused-L because they, no one else, caused them.  If we trample others in our pursuitB of those (or any other) terrorists because we failed to make everyF reasonable effort not to, we will be to blame because we, no one else,- killed those others in our unnecessary haste.h   >tL > > We're not punishing Saddam, we're punishing most severely precisely thatG > > segment of the Iraqi people with the least ability to influence (or  change)  > > their leadership.g > @ > That is the fault of one man, and one man only. By refusing toG > capitulate, and by inciting his people against the UN, Saddam remainsRJ > defiant - and the sanctions remain. Cause -> effect. So simple, even *I*8 > can understand it! ...and that's pretty damned simple!  - No, it's just you who are simple.  And wrong.s   > F > The members of the UN are not now, never have been and never will beH > responsible for Saddam's incursions into Kuwait. The members of the UND > are not now, never have been and never will be responsible for theE > effects of sanctions imposed on Iraq as a result of such aggressionl; > against a neighbor country which posed no threat to Iraq.n  J The sanctions were originally instituted as an immediate, and appropriate,C U.N. reaction to the invasion.  After Iraq's defeat, sanctions wereiJ continued to attempt to enforce compliance with the cease-fire resolutionsK (including weapons-inspection provisions and reparations to Kuwait), not asaI punishment for the invasion, and the U.N. position was that they would bedK lifted when destruction of weapons of mass destruction had been verified byaI the inspectors.  But the U.S. position was that they would continue until K Saddam was removed from power - and since they long ago proved insufficient:J to cause that, any rationale that might have at least somewhat compensated@ for the damage they've done to the Iraqi population disappeared.   >dG > I will remain intractable on those points, so best not to pursue themD
 > further.  L You can remain ignorant if you want to, but will continue to be corrected if. you try to propagate this ignorance to others.   >.< > > However much sense it may seemed to have made initially, > > it's clearly wrong now.  > I > Why is it "clearly wrong"? How can we back down now without encouraging H > others to commit crimes against humanity similar to those which caused1 > the sanctions to be imposed in the first place?   K 'How can we back down now' precisely captures the idiocy:  we don't want torB admit we screwed up, despite its obviousness to most of the world.   > : > Backing down would be both clearly and inarguably wrong.  L What's clearly and inarguably wrong is to continue to pursue a failed policyJ that does actual damage to others rather than admit our mistake and figure  out what we *ought* to be doing.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:34:31 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>c( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y4d74qw47s.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  D > Also, screening passengers is really a joke unless all the airport) > personnel are screened more rigorously.f  K When I heard the news, I was half expecting the FBI to find that the planessM had indeed been flown by their pilots, as "sleepers" of whatever organizationeM is behind this...that, of course, is extremely difficult (if not impossible) a to protect against.    	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:47:32 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>.( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y4adzuw3m3.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  . Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  A > Earlier, there where reports that one of the alledged perps hadt= > engineering or Arch degree, as well as the flight training.o  L An organisation able to put a plan such as Tuesday's into effect surely willN have access to enough technical expertise to design their attack in the "best"
 possible way.a   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:19:37 +0100o0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA5CE39.B80921D9@uk.sun.com>   Jordan Henderson wrote:t > , > In article <3BA1E8F1.148ECD1C@uk.sun.com>,4 > andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote:G > I understand that a Compaq Services employee was on one of the planesl* > that was crashed into one of the towers. > G > It may be of interest to some readers here to know that he was flyingo > to LA to attend CETS.f > < > I've heard that four other Compaq employees were attending@ > meetings with customers in the Towers on the day and are still
 > missing. >   6 I am sorry to hear this, I can only offer my sympathy 5 to their collegues and family a sentiment which I am  ! sure the rest of Sun would share.o  C > >I am going with a number of people from the Sun office in londontE > >to the US embassy in London today to sign the book of condolencies  > >that they have opened there.t > >e > D > The outpouring of support from England and elsewhere is moving.  IF > heard that they played "The Star Spangled Banner" at the changing of/ > the guard at Buckingham Palace the other day.w >   ? One of my collegues is an American, she worked in WTC and knew nA people who are missing from a number of companies in the buildingoB so we went to the US embassy on Friday to provide her with support" and to pay our respects ourselves.  A It was a better experience than I had expected, quiet, reflectivee? a lot of emotion and a wide spectrum of people queuing quietly r< to sign the books and leave their flowers arround the statue
 of Roosevelt.a  = There were two messages on the page of the book I signed, onea? a Muslim (I assume from the name) the other a Lord, it brought e- home the fact that this has touched everyone.r  : The notes on the cards with the flowers had a minority of 8 people whose sentiments fall into the bomb them into the6 stone age category, the majority were more reflective.   Regardsf Andrew Harrisons Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:27:54 +0100?/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> ( Subject: re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center7 Message-ID: <00A02305.0565A275.14@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>i   > Israel Raj T wrote: 
 > > [snip]F > > ... the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to American6 > > sanctions depriving them of food and medications,  >  > Corrections: > ! > 1. UN sanctions, not "American"n > G > 2. The sole blame for this lies with the recalcitrant despot dictator J > who holds his own ambitions higher than the lives of those he is trusted > to govern. > H > Saddam knows how to lift the sanctions - but he never will. The deathsH > and plight of his people weigh on his shoulders alone - no one else's. >  > Get *REAL* clear on that!l  K Get even more real clear. He doesn't even need to get the sanctions lifted.e  I There's absolutely nothing in the UN sanctions to stop him buying food orhG medicines. He deliberately starves and kills his own people so that hisn' propaganda machine can blame us for it.t   	Yours,t
 		Nigel Arnoto- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   o  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:03:21 +0000s  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACA.004D383D.00@quegw01.btyp>r  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P As I understand it, the sanctions don't include those items which would stem theP death of those who need, but that it suits the Iraqi government to allow this toK happen - have we forgotten so soon how many Iraqi's have been killed BY thea Iraqi government.   N Same goes for all those apparently starving and living in stone age conditionsO in Afghanistan - what happened to all the aid funding which has been sent to beUO distributed via the Taliban? Including the $30m handed over by the US in May ofpD this year - how much of that has found its way to those who need it?   Steve Ss        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/16/2001 06:16:26 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)iJ From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 16 September 2001, 6:16 p.m.   Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center           < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA4DFBE.D6C86E39@fsi.net...s > Israel Raj T wrote: 
 > > [snip]F > > ... the 0.5 million children who have died in Iraq due to American5 > > sanctions depriving them of food and medications,s >r > Corrections: >t! > 1. UN sanctions, not "American"   H American influence appears to be the only reason they're still in place.   >tG > 2. The sole blame for this lies with the recalcitrant despot dictatorsJ > who holds his own ambitions higher than the lives of those he is trusted > to govern.  H Any credit or blame for the effects of the sanctions lies with those whoH impose them.  We may have had good reasons originally for believing thatL imposing them would result in a change in Iraq's government.  We were proved? wrong long ago, and any reason for continuing them disappeared.i   >aH > Saddam knows how to lift the sanctions - but he never will. The deathsH > and plight of his people weigh on his shoulders alone - no one else's.  L That makes about as much sense as saying that the blame for Tuesday's attackK falls on the shoulders of U.S. leaders for not being more responsive to thee demands of the outside world.i  H We're not punishing Saddam, we're punishing most severely precisely thatK segment of the Iraqi people with the least ability to influence (or change)nK their leadership.  However much sense it may seemed to have made initially,c it's clearly wrong now.o   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 06:52:52 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White)a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center< Message-ID: <39779b25.0109170552.41c8a12@posting.google.com>  m "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<ICKn7.135$YP.7041@news.cpqcorp.net>...iM > But here we are.  The violence that "perhaps" we could have helped to stop, K > is now at our doorstep.  If we believe that Bin Ladin is the culprit, theeN > answer is simple - tell Kabul that they have 48 hours to deliver him alive -I > or preferably dead - or be prepared for something that will make DesertT6 > Storm look like a picnic.  The same goes for Saddam.   OK, sounds great.s  D First step. Establish a land base. You might have to fight a nuclear' equipped country (Pakistan) to do that.n  E AH, OK then nuke them to the stone age, and you would have to do thate; to 15 or so other countries. End of the world, free or not!r   It is not that simple.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 09:56:59 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)e( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <9o4vfb$ueq$1@lisa.gemair.com>  O In article <9o4b6f$f5b$1@pyrite.mv.net>, Bill Todd <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:n >k > [snip] >r >rK >The sanctions were originally instituted as an immediate, and appropriate,rD >U.N. reaction to the invasion.  After Iraq's defeat, sanctions wereK >continued to attempt to enforce compliance with the cease-fire resolutionsnL >(including weapons-inspection provisions and reparations to Kuwait), not asJ >punishment for the invasion, and the U.N. position was that they would beL >lifted when destruction of weapons of mass destruction had been verified byJ >the inspectors.  But the U.S. position was that they would continue untilL >Saddam was removed from power - and since they long ago proved insufficientK >to cause that, any rationale that might have at least somewhat compensatedlA >for the damage they've done to the Iraqi population disappeared.e >p  : What all this analysis omits is the real and valid role ofI the sanctions in depriving the terrorist networks of much needed funding.i  ; I'm of the opinion that the current terrorist adversary has ? unreasonable demands with which we cannot compromise.  Iraq has D demonstrated their willingness to flaunt the International community? in continuing to develop weapons of mass destruction (chemical,sC biological AND nuclear).  Saddam also funds international terrorismo@ with what oil money he can scrounge through back door deals with Jordan.o  @ I shudder to think of how the terrorists could be armed with the> tens of Billions that Iraq could doubtless contribute, not to = mention the weapons of mass destruction that Iraq could more u: easily develop themselves, should the sanctions be lifted.  @ In this scenario, I view the people of Iraq to be hostiges of a 6 monster who uses them as a public relations ploy while? plotting the death of tens of millions in Israel, Kuwait, SaudiaA Arabia and the US.  We are no more at fault for the privations ofeA the Iraqi people as we are for the death of civilians that SaddamaF forced to live right next to, sometimes on top of, important military  targets during the Gulf War.  C Make no mistake about our policy.  The sanctions could be lifted int@ short order would Saddam end his support of world terrorism and D open his society up to verification that weapons of mass distructionB were no longer being developed.  It is Saddam's intransigence that keeps the sanctions in place.   E You appeal to our policy makers to compromise with the valid concernsiD of middle class Arabs who support the terrorists (often unwitingly),B and then go on to suggest that we provide a bonanza of support as = part of the compromise.  Doesn't seem like good policy to me.q  F In fact, any talk of reviewing policy or compromise at this time seems8 to me to run the danger of encouraging future terrorism.   >o >- bill  >S >a >w   -Jordan Hendersont jordan@greenapple.comy   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:48:54 GMTh3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>,( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <3BA6277E.741FB572@cableinet.co.uk>e   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Phil Mendelsohn wrote: > >v- > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, John Saunders wrote:r > >eB > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message' > > > news:3BA504C8.43BDC5D2@fsi.net...h4 > > > > How can we back down now without encouragingN > > > > others to commit crimes against humanity similar to those which caused7 > > > > the sanctions to be imposed in the first place?d > > >rR > > > Well, actually David, we could blame Iraq for funding the WTC attack, finishP > > > the job of mopping it up and disposing of its current government, and then0 > > > we could drop the sanctions. Works for me. > >nG > > That could get messy, when it is shown that the U.S. originally set M > > Hussein up in business in the first place, sometime around the depositionn > > of the Shah of Iran. > F > At that time, world events was about as far from me as married life.' > Now, I'm in the thick of both of 'em.s > H > Knowing that now sort of explains his recalcitrant obstinance, but not > his cruelty.  G you did know that one of Britain's main export destinations for sheeps'o- brains before the BSE crisis was Iraq, David?   D It was scrapie in the sheep that got the cows, and possibly the rich arabs.   :-)h   regardsu --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:46:25 GMTe3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>'( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <3BA626E9.492A3428@cableinet.co.uk>e   cjt & trefoil wrote: > J > We put most of these scumbags into business, bin Laden included.  Now we! > have to correct those mistakes.  >   C it is interesting that the US used Saddam to destroy the democratics movement in Iraq in the 80's.   > Phil Mendelsohn wrote: > >a- > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, John Saunders wrote:o > >eB > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message' > > > news:3BA504C8.43BDC5D2@fsi.net...t4 > > > > How can we back down now without encouragingN > > > > others to commit crimes against humanity similar to those which caused7 > > > > the sanctions to be imposed in the first place?t > > >lR > > > Well, actually David, we could blame Iraq for funding the WTC attack, finishP > > > the job of mopping it up and disposing of its current government, and then0 > > > we could drop the sanctions. Works for me. > >tG > > That could get messy, when it is shown that the U.S. originally setiM > > Hussein up in business in the first place, sometime around the depositionh > > of the Shah of Iran. > >o > > --@ > > I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,; > > but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.l   -- a Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  e  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of s! my employers or service provider.t   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 04:35:51 -0700+ From: kor.rinkens@libertel.nl (Kor Rinkens) ( Subject: Re: programming rms file system= Message-ID: <6593af79.0109170335.53349bc1@posting.google.com>o  t John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<4709qtk8qmn816un0947k0u51pic9jo4gb@4ax.com>...9 > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:35:17 GMT, "John Gemignani, Jr."u" > <john@REMOVETHISossc.net> wrote: > I > >The RFM, RAT and MRS are OUTPUTS from a $OPEN, so it is meaningless to  > >specify them. > G > You can change the RFM field before each $GET if you choose, and thissC > will affect how that read works.  Can't see RAT and MRS being any H > different to be honest.  However, if you are using a HLL, you may findJ > it has cached some pertinent information and may object to fiddling with  > the underlying RMS structures. > I > I have used this technique to recover logical records from a file which G > was transferred from tape to disk on a u**x machine and thus lost alloI > the record structure.  Not being especially C-savvy at the time (it may J > offer better stream or undefined record support), I used Fortran to openJ > the file (fiddling the RFM field to VAR in the USEROPEN routine to matchF > the OPEN keyword and then returning it to UDF later) and then calledE > $GET with buffer sizes that I worked out as I read the fixed-length F > internal file headers.  (SEGY data if anyone is interested.)  Worked > just fine. >  >  > 	Johni   Hi o  @ Waht you can do is create an *.fdl file. Here you can put in theE describtion for the file hust as you want to (sequential, indexed ands so on)   for example you have a file   	 test.txt u then create an fdl file .t  6 $ ana/rms/file test.txt this creates an test.fdl file.   then start teh fdl editor-  4 $ edit/fdl test.fdl and change the file discription.  B after this you can convert your old test.txt for example test1.txt  ) $ convert/fdl=test.fdl test.txt test1.txtt  F Once the fdl is correct then only for new files you create (send over), is to run then convert/fdl=test.fdl command.   I hope this will help youn   Regards Kori   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:25:58 -0700o' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>l7 Subject: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skillsb+ Message-ID: <3BA61606.276ABF15@caltech.edu>h  G The inquirer reports that Compaq has had to go third party for an Alphau to IA64 binary translator.  See  *    http://www.theinquirer.net/16090103.htm  F It says a lot about the foresight and competence of Digipaq managementG that a company which was once the undisputed leader in this field, that @ once brought us VEST and FX!86,  can no longer muster the skillsE internally to translate from its currently supported processor to the C one it claims to be staking its future on.  Compaq has virtually no G technological jewels left to pawn, and they are doing an incredibly badn& job of holding onto skilled employees.  C The longer that Curly beats the Compaq drum the less it sounds like D music to my ears, and the more it sounds like a monkey banging on an empty tin can.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:31:48 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u; Subject: Re: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills11 Message-ID: <WHop7.271$YP.10027@news.cpqcorp.net>n  J It is a very well defined project, and we have a partner who is skilled inH the specific area.  It makes perfectly good sense to do this project, inI this way.  It does not say that we couldn't do it ourselves, it is just aL9 better use of our resources to have this done externally.       @ David Mathog wrote in message <3BA61606.276ABF15@caltech.edu>...H >The inquirer reports that Compaq has had to go third party for an Alpha >to IA64 binary  >translator.  Sees >d+ >   http://www.theinquirer.net/16090103.htms >fG >It says a lot about the foresight and competence of Digipaq managementoH >that a company which was once the undisputed leader in this field, thatA >once brought us VEST and FX!86,  can no longer muster the skillsuF >internally to translate from its currently supported processor to theD >one it claims to be staking its future on.  Compaq has virtually noH >technological jewels left to pawn, and they are doing an incredibly bad' >job of holding onto skilled employees.e >eD >The longer that Curly beats the Compaq drum the less it sounds likeE >music to my ears, and the more it sounds like a monkey banging on ano >empty tin can.l >.	 >Regards,a >t
 >David Mathogt >mathog@caltech.eduu >, >f >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:48:45 -0700s# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ; Subject: RE: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEPNDEAA.tom@kednos.com>f  ; So, who is the partner?  Will they synthesize a flow graph?t- Are they going to use any of your FX!32 code?e   Tomw   > -----Original Message-----< > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]* > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:32 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comw= > Subject: Re: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skills- >- > L > It is a very well defined project, and we have a partner who is skilled inJ > the specific area.  It makes perfectly good sense to do this project, inK > this way.  It does not say that we couldn't do it ourselves, it is just a ; > better use of our resources to have this done externally.m >c >  > B > David Mathog wrote in message <3BA61606.276ABF15@caltech.edu>...J > >The inquirer reports that Compaq has had to go third party for an Alpha > >to IA64 binaryl > >translator.  Seeo > > - > >   http://www.theinquirer.net/16090103.htme > >tI > >It says a lot about the foresight and competence of Digipaq managementoJ > >that a company which was once the undisputed leader in this field, thatC > >once brought us VEST and FX!86,  can no longer muster the skills H > >internally to translate from its currently supported processor to theF > >one it claims to be staking its future on.  Compaq has virtually noJ > >technological jewels left to pawn, and they are doing an incredibly bad) > >job of holding onto skilled employees.  > > F > >The longer that Curly beats the Compaq drum the less it sounds likeG > >music to my ears, and the more it sounds like a monkey banging on an- > >empty tin can.- > >  > >Regards,  > >0 > >David Mathogs > >mathog@caltech.edul > >p > >  > >c >R >O   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:46:06 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r; Subject: Re: Q goes 3rd party for binary translation skillst3 Message-ID: <SXiXe7cNJJuC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3BA61606.276ABF15@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:oI > The inquirer reports that Compaq has had to go third party for an Alphah > to IA64 binary > translator.  See > , >    http://www.theinquirer.net/16090103.htm > H > It says a lot about the foresight and competence of Digipaq management  J To me it says a lot about the "inside information" gotten by The Register.I The points in the story were all announced at last week's DECUS Symposium  in Anaheim.d  I > that a company which was once the undisputed leader in this field, that1B > once brought us VEST and FX!86,  can no longer muster the skillsG > internally to translate from its currently supported processor to theS, > one it claims to be staking its future on.  C Certainly keeping translator people on staff for the six years whenrE there was no translator work to be done would have been great for thee bottom line.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:04:21 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>mB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)8 Message-ID: <51fbqtk0hf4daad830b1jqqje2fo1cir6b@4ax.com>  C On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:55:14 GMT, smw@shell3.shore.net (Sam Weiner)e wrote:  H >In article <9nvjf1$p5u$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote: >t; >The version of RMS for TOPS-10 fell behind TOPS-20 towardsh= >the end.  Not sure when but by the time I got there in 1986.e: >I don't think there was ever good enough documentation to= >use from other than COBOL and later FORTRAN.  When the firstw8 >version of RMS-10 came out as part of COBOL, my pre DEC8 >employer tried to get interface information so we could8 >use RMS instead of trying to build our own indexed file >system and failed.i >h8 >Unlike VMS where RMS is used by most utilities and user: >programs, RMS on TOPS-* was not much used by the supplied4 >utilities or customer programs outside COBOL shops.  E I think it was supported by Basic Plus 2 on TOPS-20 as well. But onlya* later releases. My memory could be faulty.     >Sam# >Last of the RMS-10/-20 maintainersa   -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 17 Sep 01 09:02:09 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comlB Subject: Re: Somehow, D. Cutler (was Re: HP-UX will not be ported)+ Message-ID: <9o4o4j$cc4$4@bob.news.rcn.net>r  1 In article <Cuep7.1346$v6.195113@news.shore.net>,R+    smw@shell3.shore.net (Sam Weiner) wrote:3H >In article <9nvjf1$p5u$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:, >>In article <3BA28084.73167456@virgin.net>,+ >>   Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:u >>>e >>>Lars Poulsen wrote: >>>p@ >>>> that VMS provided - from day one - a lot of code in the RMSF >>>> (Record Management Subsystem) for which there is no equivalent in@ >>>> Unix or TOPS, and which haas immense value for the business >>>aJ >>>Just a minor correction. TOPS-20 did support RMS but not as complete anJ >>>implementation as in VMS. Don't recall if TOPS-10 ever had RMS support. >>B >>It was shipped as an application (kinda like FORTRAN). I finally% >>got it bundled in on the CUSP tape.K >e; >The version of RMS for TOPS-10 fell behind TOPS-20 towards = >the end.  Not sure when but by the time I got there in 1986.   9 Right.  That was a side effect of trying to have it as a a9 salable product.  The -10 customers weren't interested inm; paying a lot of money for RMS--that just wasn't the kind ofr< biz they were in.  If they needed an RMS-type of system, the bought a little machine.  < The usage of RMS on the -10 might have changed IF (note the A big if) DEC's marketing policy hadn't been to outprice ourselves.o    : >I don't think there was ever good enough documentation to. >use from other than COBOL and later FORTRAN.   8 Yea, well.  That was internal politiking w.r.t. funding. <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:24:46 +0200 ) From: Bernhard Wulf <WULF@DECUS.DECUS.DE>mY Subject: VAX 4000-90 trouble after testing NETBSD CD with error ?? 000 8 sys 0512 in POST * Message-ID: <3BA5A53E.38F3@DECUS.DECUS.DE>   Hello,  0 hope I'm right here, to ask some questions about; the NetBSD port and some hardware details to VAX 4000-90 ? p   What happend...d  4 There was a time, a happy 4000-90 running OpenVMS7.x9 doing the POST ( power on selftest ) without fatal ( ?? )r< or nonefatal ( ? ) errors, did an autostart like configured @ in BOOTDEV and started without any further trouble in OpenVMS...  = Then I tried out my freshly burned NETBSD CD-Rom on that VAX.pB The ISO image I used had the following name /description "VAX BOOT 1.5.1"D Everything worked fine, hardware detection, boot up to installation.. I stopped here without writing stuff to disks.  , After that, the VAX is a bit confused now...  = The POST will give an error like "?? 000 8 sys 0512" and the h5 autostart didn't work anymore ( the error is fatal ).h< Giving ">>> boot" will bring up VMS like before, no further  problems, errors or messages.mE The use of VMS will not delete the problem, I tried to do a set time,lB various set's on the bootprompt ( >>> ). Also I deleted the entire* NVRAM... no way to get rid of the message.  = By the way, this error is not mentioned in the 4000-90 docs ?s" The FRU part 000 is not assigned, @ The 8 / SYS test is used for "other system functions", a deeper 0 look will end up with a "system ROM test" which > "Checks the system ROMs one byte at a time to ensure that they= contain the correct manufacturing check data and the correct  
 checksum."7 The subcode of 512 is not assigned to a proper message.      I want my AUTOSTART back ;-)  ! What did NetBSD on that machine ?h  @ Are there any sources available to trace the process of hardware& detection and specific 4000-90 things.3 Are there adresses in memory NetBsd will write to ? = Highly interesting are regions in the area where NVRam, Flashd* or other memories with memory are located.  > I'm not the first one with this trouble, see on Google and use* the error shown above as searchargument...- But the problem seems not to be fixed by now.i  ? There seems something wrong with NetBSD and VAXStation 4000-90.t  . If you need further datails please contact me.   Have a nice day.  	 Bernhard.- wulf@decus(dot)decus(dot)de    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:46:28 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>5 Subject: Re: What RAM does a VAXstation 4000 VLC use?R) Message-ID: <3BA5E294.D03B3C2D@127.0.0.1>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > G > Hoff posted recently that generic 4MB 72-pin parity SIMMs should work  > fine.6  B Having some experience in this area I would like to add, there are@ differences. IME, you get 60ns and 70ns types, some of the later- (Alphaservers) need the 60ns (faster) memory.w  F Identifying the boards reliably at 'PC shows' where these are abundantB at reasonable prices is difficult, but the presence of '36 bit' isH helpful in indicating parity. Not all PC types understand what parity isE (no surprise there then), but explanation of what you want to achieves9 may allow you to trial and error what they have in stock.d  G However supported hardware (if fully working) will give you no trouble,s2 un-named and unqualified hardware may, or may not.   -- i( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:20:54 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh( Message-ID: <9o44lm$4tk$1@pyrite.mv.net>  4 "Doug W." <dashw459@aol.comeatspam> wrote in message3 news:20010916210406.18757.00001371@mb-ch.aol.com...o' > the_bagbournes@btinternet.com  wrote:D >dJ > << Why cannot the US reign in Israel's agression? No, Palestine is not aI > country, but it is a nation. Some change of rhetoric, some criticism ofa thesJ > heavy handedness of Israel's policies would do wonders in bringing about > more reason. >>  >-J > The US has influence in Israel, but not the ability to reign in behavior at > will.t  K That is correct.  However, the U.S. *does* have the ability to disassociategL itself from that behavior - and from Israel if that's the only way to do so.  E   One must have a better idea with a chance of success along with theaL > power and ability to generate support from different groups.   Not an easy > task.r  I The 'better idea with a chance of success' sure looked like the one Rabin:I was pursuing - with unprecedented success - up until he was assassinated.JK Not all that hard to figure out that continuing along that path was the wayDL to go, unless you were intent on taking advantage of that event to reverse a# policy your faction disagreed with.a  H   In the past the US has tried to promote peace in the Middle East.  TheJ > US does not have the power, influence or energy to solve every difficultH > problem.  This makes it a target when things go wrong.  Too often many partiestG > feel they have been mistreated by the US whether it acts or does not.f  F In this case, the U.S. acted - by continuing to support Israel when itJ turned its back on a process that was working and commitments it had made.J It is difficult to imagine how frustrating that turn-around must have been8 for the Palestinians and Arab states which had made veryB internally-difficult compromises to reach that point - and it justL under-scored the point that Israel was still absolutely in the driver's seat6 of the process (and our support helped keep it there).   >-K > Also, its difficult to encourage Israel to change its behavior when it isk > attacked by terrorists.s  J But an assassination carried out by one of its own encouraged it to changeJ its behavior radically.  And terrorist activity, which had been muted, hasE increased since then - and especially in the past year - as a result..  7   One finds onself questioning how  they would react if.( > confronted with similar circumstances.  G When a leader is assassinated for the express purpose of sabotaging his F successful peace process, I would expect his country to make damn wellK certain that this objective is not achieved.  Instead, at the next electionnI Israel rejected Shamir and elected a hard-liner who reversed the process.LD And then after flirting with a semi-moderate (Barak) elected an evenJ harder-liner.  Is it any wonder they see terrorism on the rise again?  TheL real wonder is that, from the way our own leaders are talking, we don't seem/ to have learned anything from their experience.   )   Unfortunately, the US is now confrontedcI > by these circumstances.  We shall see.  The only hopeful thing I see isr Bush'sG > linkage of terrorists and the governments that support them.  Withoutt supportEF > from a state there could be no large scale terrrorism.  Cetainly not privatee( > armies dedicated to inhumane insanity.  K We haven't *seen* any large-scale terrorism - yet.  Or private armies.  The F WTC attack probably involved at most hundreds of people, possibly onlyF dozens:  any more and it could hardly have escaped leaking in advance.@ Cost?  Likely under $1 million - easily within the financial andJ organizational capacity of a single only moderately-wealthy individual, orF even a few innocent middle-class families (e.g., one family reportedly@ thought it was financing its son's studies and flight training).  I There may have been governments involved in the WTC attack, or not.  They1 certainly weren't required.l   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:21:17 GMT(* From: cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh+ Message-ID: <3BA59685.F8C1890B@prodigy.net>-   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  <snip> > I > Terrorists will not surrender, roll over and either "play nice" or die.tG > The only effective weapon we have is rendered useless by their beliefeI > that if we use it, we will send them exactly where they want to go (thelH > "next life"), and thus they will continue motivating and even escalateI > their motivation of the U.S. not only to continue a nuclear assault buta* > even to escalate to a more global scale. <snip>  K Maybe not.  You don't see their leaders leading the wave to martyrdom.  AndmI there are reports of some of these people cavorting and drinking in nudieeH bars.  All of which makes me wonder whether they actually are interested in the next life as suggested.  J I submit it's about money and power, not religion.  Find the money and cutJ off its source, and make clear the power isn't achievable, and the war can be won.    ------------------------------   Date: 17 Sep 2001 06:25:37 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)a Subject: Re: World Trade Center-5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-TP3dkkxTtdtd@localhost>0  2 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:19:33, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   > Bill Todd wrote: > > @ > > "Jordan Henderson" <jordan@lisa.gemair.com> wrote in message( > > news:9o10di$adn$1@lisa.gemair.com...
 > > [SNIP]9 > > > At what point must we back away from compromise ando% > > > focus only on military options?y > > J > > At the point where we have exhausted other reasonable options - and we  > > haven't even begun to do so. > G > Y'know, I am truly loath to interject any comments here. I'm just nowuG > starting to tweak myself back toward my "normal" center (as if I everAG > had one) and my shock is turning to rage at a pace that frightens me.r9 > However, I cannot let such a statement go unchallenged.a > G > I do commend you, Bill, on your calm approach. However, the statementsF > you make begs the question: how many more WTC-like tragedies must weH > endure while we attempt to "exhaust other reasonable options", and endJ > up back at the same decision (to attack or not to attack? to nuke or not > to nuke?)?   DavidtE              you're going through  a process that most of the Brit's  F and some of the other Europeans in the forum have experienced over theF last 20/30 years or more. Whenever the IRA perpetrated some deed whichB took people to their deaths my, and I'm sure many other people's, D reaction was 'Kill the Bastards', 'Sink Ireland' or some other such F phrase. The same in  other countries where terrorism was carried out. B Germans did, Italians did, French did. Many Spanish still do, I'm ? sure. But after a while (usually a couple or hours for me) the PE emotional reaction subsides and common sense, logic or 'calmness and  @ the ability to think clearly' returns. Bill has got there a bit F quicker than many other Americans perhaps but he doesn't appear to be  alone, I'm glad to say.]  F I appreciate that the scale/death toll of this attack are different toF anything experienced in any country that I can think of and that makesF it harder to overcome the emotional reaction. But it needs to be done % before decisions on action are taken.p  C > Another poster remarked about Japan's response to our bombings ofyE > Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan surrendered because they saw an enemyeB > become something they could no longer fight: and enemy who couldF > obliterate their nation and homeland in a matter of days - far worseE > than Nazi Germany could have ever hoped in its drive to achieve itsr > ends.a  F ISTR that the one of the reasons the US used the bomb was to finish itD quickly to prevent Stalin  getting in and getting a peice of the SE B Asian pie. It was not just to save the lives of the GI's fighting F north from Okinawa, which is always used as a justification. I make noE judgement on that, I wasn't there. I do know a lot of men were being rC killed and there was a prospect of more. However, there were other  C options being explored and a major debate taking place between the dA various factions of the US government. That's the reason why the  D morality of the action is questioned both inside and outside of the F US. This was the the subject of a documentary on UK television just 4 
 weeks ago.  I > Terrorists will not surrender, roll over and either "play nice" or die.cG > The only effective weapon we have is rendered useless by their beliefeI > that if we use it, we will send them exactly where they want to go (therH > "next life"), and thus they will continue motivating and even escalateI > their motivation of the U.S. not only to continue a nuclear assault but@* > even to escalate to a more global scale. > H > "Terrorism abatement" is an oxymoron. Terrorism appeasement would openG > floodgates of terror and destruction that could never be closed, everiG > again. Destroying terrorists and those who harbor or train terroristspG > only generates more anti-U.S. sentiment among terrorist sympathizers,o > thus "propagating the cycle".  > I > All things considered, whatever the U.S. does, or even if it were to doA( > nothing, it's a lose-lose proposition. > J > I would be curious to know what options you would see as "reasonable" in > the face of such a challenge.  >   F To pick up on Nigel's capital letters, examine the CAUSES and start toE address them. Prosecute any perpetrators that can be caught. Win the rD hearts and minds of those who you wish to prevent doing you damage. D There is nothing new in this. Perhaps the scale might seem a little 
 overwhelming.-   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Sep 2001 06:25:38 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerq5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-IMJFzeqFROdr@localhost>p  2 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:20:34, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  C  > The IRA had never launched an assault on America using American o objects G > of everyday life as weapons of destruction (I purposely did *NOT* say F > "mass destruction", though Bush himself did), nor have they launchedI > such an assault on the UK. Car-bombs and other explosives are not foundsG > in "everyday life" unless one works in a profession where such thingsrH > are a tool of the trade (is terrorism a "trade"?), and even then, they8 > have little place outside of trade-related activities.  
 Careful DavidM+                                 Enniskillenm%                                 Omaghh*                                 Birmingham)                                 Guildfordo  F Just four names/acts that come to mind. Thank God the NI peace processE has achieved a lot even if it isn't yet complete. And these are just  F examples of the civilian targets blown up with weapons possibly fundedD by money donated by US citizens. How many of us are innocent of the  causes of terrorism?  F Notice the UK never attacked Eire (the odd getting lost at the border 
 excepted).   -- n Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:34:57 -0400o' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t Subject: Re: World Trade Center5( Message-ID: <9o490j$doo$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:SXQ0rE2XBoO9@eisner.encompasserve.org...d; > In article <3BA4FB82.3BA452@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"e <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >T > >> iswI > >> an obligation to civilization, and is therefore win for civilization  and2 > >> lose for them.  > >sI > > For how long? Until the next terrorist( group) arises? ...and then we H > > have to do the whole thing all over again, perhaps next time after aA > > strike on Chicago? ...Omaha? ...OK City (wouldn't *THAT* be an > > "whammy"!)? ...DFW? ...LA? > >24 > > Where will we be hit be next? Where does it end? > >t >e@ > This is a very tough call.  And probably unstoppable.  But theB > vicious circle that could result wasn't/isn't something we asked > for.  I It may not be something we asked for, but it's unquestionably a circle weh can choose to break.  7   We can pretty much be certain that 1-2 years from nowS? > terrorists *won't* be operating out of Afghanisitan (assumingt@ > no infrastructure at all is left).  That's a nasty conclusion.  G There *already* isn't any significant infrastructure in Afghanistan, atdE least none that bin Laden depends on.  Wiping out the pitiful TalibandK government, such as it is, won't make the area any more or less hospitable.-   >-D > The very large incentive would be not to have terrorists operatingG > with impunity out of your country.  That is why somewhat surprisinglygC > Saddam himself condemns this action.  The clear message of course3A > is that if a terrorist act occurs against this country, we wille > come hard against you.  K Terrorists were reportedly operating within the U.S. for years planning therH WTC attack.  We didn't have a clue - but I guess you're saying that it'sC still Florida's fault and we should bomb the hell out of it anyway?   J The trouble with such 'solutions' is that they're ridiculously simplistic.J The trouble with the U.S. leadership in this matter is that it seems to beL equally simple-minded - and at the same time too powerful just to pat on the& head and send out to play innocuously.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:37:40 -0400f' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>. Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri( Message-ID: <9o495o$dos$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:3BA4FB82.3BA452@fsi.net...n > Bill Todd wrote:   ...s   > The difficulty of... >SI > > Eradicating those who were knowingly involved in Tuesday's attack (ortL > > equally culpable for some other terrorist act resulting in loss of life) >hJ > ...is perhaps the greatest challenge we currently face, in that we wouldC > like to do it without the loss of innocent lives. I suspect - andtG > greatly fear - that what we want to do and what we ultimately must dot9 > will be found at very different points in the spectrum.u  I Exactly what reasons do you have for thinking that loss of innocent lives H will be required?  The main reason *I* worry about is that we just won'tE take the trouble to avoid it, and *that's* what would be inexcusable.r  H I suppose some state could actively defend proven terrorists and make usI wage real war on it (and its quite possibly innocent citizens), but othertJ than that (the responsibility for which could be laid at that state's feetE rather than our own, as long as we had reasonably broad international L agreement that extracting the terrorists was legitimate) we ought to be ableK to avoid any save truly accidental loss of innocent life - as long as we'rei willing to make the effort.-   >  > > isL > > an obligation to civilization, and is therefore win for civilization and > > lose for them. >d > For how long?-  L If we play our cards right, hopefully forever.  The options I listed weren'tK mutually-exclusive:  we can clean up the nest that was actually responsibleRL for Tuesday's slaughter, *and* do a much better intelligence job of trackingG anyone else who *might* be a threat, *and* try to start addressing root  causes.6  8  Until the next terrorist( group) arises? ...and then weF > have to do the whole thing all over again, perhaps next time after a? > strike on Chicago? ...Omaha? ...OK City (wouldn't *THAT* be an > "whammy"!)? ...DFW? ...LA?  L So what do you suggest:  killing the millions of people in Asia, Africa, theJ Middle East, and even in the Western Hemisphere who *might* constitute theJ next threat?  That's the kind of behavior that's pretty well guaranteed toK make whoever's left standing feel that *we* constitute a far greater threato, to the world than any terrorists ever would.  K This is not a threat that can be eliminated by killing it off, because that E process just creates more (and quite rightly so).  It's reasonable to J incarcerate or eliminate those who have actually performed terrorist acts,9 but to prevent future ones requires a different approach.d   >e2 > Where will we be hit be next? Where does it end?  H It ends when we address its causes, and not before.  Learn from Israel's	 mistakes.3   >-? > > We just have to be willing to go after terrorists in, e.g.,<L > > the IRA as avidly as we go after anyone else if we don't limit our focus to > > Tuesday's attack.m >hI > The IRA had never launched an assault on America using American objectspG > of everyday life as weapons of destruction (I purposely did *NOT* say F > "mass destruction", though Bush himself did), nor have they launchedI > such an assault on the UK. Car-bombs and other explosives are not foundoG > in "everyday life" unless one works in a profession where such things H > are a tool of the trade (is terrorism a "trade"?), and even then, they8 > have little place outside of trade-related activities.  J Oh, are we only going after terrorist threats to *America*?  My impressionL was that we were presenting this to those countries we hoped to work with us( as an assault on terrorism *everywhere*.  I And I trust you're aware that extremely effective car bombs (such as that F used in Oklahoma City, I believe) can be made from everyday items like fertilizer and gasoline (IIRC).i   >eK > > Running amuck and killing a whole lot of other people in the process ist anJ > > offense against civilization, and is therefore a lose for civilization and arK > > win for the terrorists (both philosophically and in providing them witht newe > > recruits). >iA > Then, I would need to ask again: what is an effective method ofh > deterrence of terrorism?  I Good intelligence coupled with elimination of most sources of recruits by I entering into serious dialogues about root causes and keeping talking, inu7 good faith, until some kind of resolution can be found.t  0  What could *ANY* country do to send the messageF > that terrorism will result in such terrible retribution that any whoF > dare commit such acts will doom to utter destruction the very peopleD > they seek to serve or avenge? Is this indeed the very message that! > terrorist are trying to convey?e  H This is indeed exactly the same kind of 'message' that terrorists try toL convey.  We can just keep 'sending such messages' back and forth until we'reH all righteously dead (as the Israelis have been doing lately), or try toI find some better approach.  And while potential terrorists may often feelhI that *they* have no other options when confronting a powerful nation thate? seems uninterested in listening to them seriously, we ourselvescG unquestionably have the ability to initiate some kind of dialogue if wei choose to try.   > I > Terrorists believe we will not nuke - and it is this weakness that theyd# > will exploit the most ruthlessly.e  L It's not a weakness:  if we used them, we'd deserve to be wiped off the faceH of the earth.  A country that irresponsible and powerful is like a rabid3 dog:  you just kill it before it kills anyone else.    ...k  F > > Trying to understand and start a dialogue about the root causes of	 terrorismlJ > > is both a win for civilization and a win for those who might otherwise feel > > driven to terrorism. >sC > ...but does it accomplish anything other than to encourage futureh > terrorism?  J Exactly what leads you to believe that talking with people encourages themK to become terrorists?  Please give specific examples.  My own experience is-H that talking honestly with people, with any real commitment to trying toH achieve mutual understanding, helps them see you as a human being ratherF than just as some kind of problem to be overcome by whatever means areH necessary.  That seems to have been the experience of the countries thatC have had some success in addressing terrorism (rather than 'sendingc" messages' back and forth) as well.   >yI > How you feel about the U.S. nuking any target is exactly how we need to E > make others feel about the terrorists that currently exist in theire? > midst or any future terrorists who may arise from among them.-  C You just don't get it:  terrorists have little trouble being almostjI completely invisible, so it *just doesn't matter* how non-terrorists feel8F about them.  It's how potential terrorists feel themselves that has toJ change to make the problem go away:  there'll probably always be a handfulH of whackos left, but as long as the density is sparse enough not to form> critical group masses they won't amount to anything important.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 01:12:06 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White)c Subject: Re: World Trade Center = Message-ID: <39779b25.0109170012.16c4271d@posting.google.com>   f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<SXQ0rE2XBoO9@eisner.encompasserve.org>...  A > 	This is a very tough call.  And probably unstoppable.  But theeC > 	vicious circle that could result wasn't/isn't something we asked.> > 	for.  We can pretty much be certain that 1-2 years from now@ > 	terrorists *won't* be operating out of Afghanisitan (assumingA > 	no infrastructure at all is left).  That's a nasty conclusion.-  F Rob, there isn't much infrastructure in Afghanistan anyway. 85% of theF population lives in the countryside (and more are moving out of citiesA right now). We can't be certain of *anything* in a situation likeJA that. Nuking Afghanistan would solve nothing. No military targets @ would be hit, not much infrastructure would be damaged, not manyD people would be killed, and millions of people would hate the US and its allies.t  @ You seem to think that you can stop terror with terror, and thatF terrorist groups just pop up randomly for absolutely no reason, just a passing impulse.  E > 	The very large incentive would be not to have terrorists operatingjH > 	with impunity out of your country.  That is why somewhat surprisinglyD > 	Saddam himself condemns this action.  The clear message of courseB > 	is that if a terrorist act occurs against this country, we will > 	come hard against you.g  @ Are you going to bomb Ireland, the UK, France, Germany, Holland,A Spain, Portugal, Italy, as well as thew WHOLE of the middle east?e  B There are radical islamists everywhere. OK I personally think theyE should be deported to their islamic paradise in Afghanistan, but lookt? how hard it is to make everyone pay the council tax, televisiony? license, get driving licences, pay road tax, drive within speede@ limits, get insured, turn up for court/probation, pay debts. TheE populace of our countries is NOT under control. The UK is a haven foro+ extreme islamists as is the rest of europe.n  F > 	The sad thing is that innocents will suffer.  That isn't comfortingE > 	and really presses home to me the whole matter of sin and darknesssD > 	in man's heart that causes him to do such things to each other inB > 	the light of eternity and the surety that Christ will return in > 	all His glory.a  > OH NO! You're one of THEM! You believe in totally unverifiableB mystical imaginary friends. With blind belief like that, you wouldE follow your leader into hell. The world is as we observe it. There isnB NO GOD. BILLIONS of people have devoted their lives to looking for@ some mystical power. Ancient civilizations stood for hundreds ofC years, each generation totally believing as much as you do in their < own invented creation myths, and national Gods. Now they areF forgotten, and we think them quaint and anthropologically interesting.E How is christianity different? You belive it because someone told yousA when you were young. No supernatural power has ever intervened oneA earth, WHY believe otherwise? What good does it do you or anyone?   D Time for pragmatism, for real-politik. Treat this as a crime againstD humanity, hunt down the ringleaders, and those who aided and abettedF him, but don't sacrifice the world! Remove the grass roots support forC insane people like Bin Laden and they would not be ABLE to operate.lD Killing lots of people INCREASES grass roots support for extremists.   Nigelf   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:39:08 +0200e5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>. Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri+ Message-ID: <3BA5C4BC.C3F330C9@TeraPort.de>p   Robert Deininger wrote:  > L > In article <9nrk7q$fju$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> > wrote: > 1 > > > You call Tuesday an "avenue of expression"?t > >bM > > Of course.  Do you in any way believe that it was not meant as a message?  > J > I dunno.  Maybe they were nuts enough to think in terms of actual damageK > inflicted.  As a signigicant hurt, a way to lessen our influence in theiri > part of the world. > K > If it was meant as a message, what range of possible answers do you thinkg > they expected? >   E  my suspicion/fear is that the people behind Tuesdays attac just hope D for gigantic US retaliation that will lead to the unification of theE whole islamic world against the western culture. Than they would haver6 the "holy war" they are longing for. Call me paranoid.   Martin -- nB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309w7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111n5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:04:31 +0010h% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aue Subject: Re: World Trade CenterC5 Message-ID: <01K8GF3AWW2A005AO8@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>a   Dave,   3 >On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:20:34, "David J. Dachtera"   ><djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:a > D > > The IRA had never launched an assault on America using American  objectslH >> of everyday life as weapons of destruction (I purposely did *NOT* sayG >> "mass destruction", though Bush himself did), nor have they launched J >> such an assault on the UK. Car-bombs and other explosives are not foundH >> in "everyday life" unless one works in a profession where such thingsI >> are a tool of the trade (is terrorism a "trade"?), and even then, theyr9 >> have little place outside of trade-related activities.n >f >Careful David, >                                Enniskillen& >                                Omagh+ >                                Birminghamb* >                                Guildford >"G >Just four names/acts that come to mind. Thank God the NI peace process F >has achieved a lot even if it isn't yet complete. And these are just G >examples of the civilian targets blown up with weapons possibly funded E <by money donated by US citizens. How many of us are innocent of the   >causes of terrorism?  > G >Notice the UK never attacked Eire (the odd getting lost at the border   >excepted).e  M You missed out the Old Bailey bombing, the attack in Hyde Park on (military)  M musicians and their horses, the Oxford Street Underground (London) bombing.  sJ The many car bombs on celebrated people -- the cancer doctor whose name I ; cannot bring to mind, Patrick Steptoe or something similar?i  3 I was intending this to be my only comment, but....t  F My heart goes out to the American people, particularly those who have M suffered a loss.  But I am just a common citizen who can feel for *people*.  oK From all that I have experienced/read in my life, I am no longer left with eN anger;  just a bewilderment as to how any person could treat others in such a  way as is done.c  M Our nations do not have that concern.  As has been mentioned here, it is our  N so-called "civilised nations" who have "created" and engendered terrorism and L "religious wars" in the first instance.  Patriotic fervour can be a synonym  for terrorism.  E I trust that any United States reprisals will not escalate us into a oN "Christain" versus "Muslim" war.  Christians and Muslims already have so many H internal conflicts.  In some parts of the world religions/races live in > harmony.  Fanatics from any persuasion are always the problem.  K Though this is probably not a good time to make this comment, I trust that  F the US nation's leaders will remember that the IRA (as Dave said) was C supported mainly from funds from US citizens -- and UK is a friend?i  N Murder, rape, terrorism all can be done in the name of religious mania.  They K have all been with us since the time of Neanderthal man.  The methods used   just get "bigger and better".t   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:08:28 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterhH Message-ID: <y44rq2w2n7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  4 > > Sigh... How many more WTCs do you want to spend?L > You seem to have things confused.  Hidden within your words there seems toA > be an assumption that Tuesday was the teeniest bit justified.  c  M No, this is an indication that such actions as you suggest will not solve thegM problem(s) at the root of terrorism, as Bill has been saying again and again.b  9 "Cutting of your nose to spite your face" seems to apply.   L > > It is this atitude that got NY to the state that Bosnia has lived in forL > > a decade, that Afganistan has been suffering for over a decade... and on
 > > it goes.  H > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validE > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it has J > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aD > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > appropriate response.  4   Have you ever raised a child?d   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:03:22 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CentergH Message-ID: <y47kuyw2vp.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   I > While old memories sometimes run deep, I suspect their main reasons for N > hatred are very recent:  Israel's reversal (after Rabin was assassinated) ofL > a peace process that appeared to be nearing the brink of a real resolutionH > (which must have been inconceivably frustrating after so many years ofK > effort), the past decade of unnecessary suffering in Iraq due to economice > sanctions   B And in these and similar cases, the could-be recruits of terroristD organizations can see no path to a better future, and indeed in someC cases the US of A as being a block in many of conceivable paths to iC such a better future. Once you are in this state of mind, any otherlI action seems just as good as doing nothing - even if that action involveso your own destruction.    	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:28:23 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center H Message-ID: <y41yl6w1q0.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> writes:f    H > > I also think that a purely military approach to the problem is not a > > useful long-term solution.I > Tell that to the Germans or the Japanese. Or for that matter any of thelD > 'tribes' of western europe. The last 56 years has been the longestF > period in recorded european history of peace. If we had had the willH > at the time we could have disarmed Stalin along with rest. No occupied > eastern block. No cold war.e  K Do you really think the era from, say, 1945 to 1990 was driven by "a purely?I military approach to the problem"? If so, your view of history is clearly  delusional.t   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:32:21 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>s Subject: Re: World Trade CentertH Message-ID: <y4y9neumyy.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:e  @ > 	Knee jerk?  Consider the facts that Bin Laden was responsible> > 	for the WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and now@ > 	a very wicked act of ramming the WTC towers and the Pentagon.  M Really? I mean, evidence that would even remotely stand up in a court of law?qN Or just allegations by some (likely US) government agency, citing sources thatM cannot be revealed due to national security concerns? AFAIK, he has not takenl responsibility for those acts.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:55:03 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center H Message-ID: <y4vgiiulx4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:   F > The long-range goal (help me if I'm reading into this but I honestlyJ > am seeing it pop up everywhere) is to stamp out terrorism as we know it.  M That would be delusional. It would be like attempting to stamp out infectiousrN diseases. Yeah, we likely managed to stamp out vaccinia (?), but that's a rare success among many defeats.l   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:34:05 +0200 5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>o Subject: Re: World Trade Center + Message-ID: <3BA5DFAD.A2F16E15@TeraPort.de>n   john nixon wrote:e > B > I agree with part of your assertion.  A strictly air war will beK > inconclusive without followup ground action.  That ground action does notII > have to mean mega-deaths (for us), but we need to be prepared for that.t > M > However, I disagree with the comparison to Kosovo.  There was some militaryiM > commander on television yesterday saying the difference would be in whethervL > we actually consider it a "state of war" or not.  In Kosov, he was saying,N > they had lawyers picking the targets and refusing permission to hit specificF > targets,  similar to the way targets were picked in Vietnam.  If theM > military is allowed to direct the war,  the outcome may have no resemblancei@ > to Kosovo or Vietnam.  However, there are still no guarantees. >   G   Reality check - what "targets" do you think there are in Afghanistan?b9 Kabul? Big deal... Lots of infrastructure you can hurt...t   Martin -- tB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309 7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111k5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:18:10 +0100h0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centern* Message-ID: <3BA5EA02.E8B490E9@uk.sun.com>   Martin Knoblauch wrote:e >  > john nixon wrote:c > >uD > > I agree with part of your assertion.  A strictly air war will beM > > inconclusive without followup ground action.  That ground action does notaK > > have to mean mega-deaths (for us), but we need to be prepared for that.: > >wO > > However, I disagree with the comparison to Kosovo.  There was some military O > > commander on television yesterday saying the difference would be in whethersN > > we actually consider it a "state of war" or not.  In Kosov, he was saying,P > > they had lawyers picking the targets and refusing permission to hit specificH > > targets,  similar to the way targets were picked in Vietnam.  If theO > > military is allowed to direct the war,  the outcome may have no resemblancehB > > to Kosovo or Vietnam.  However, there are still no guarantees. > >m > I >   Reality check - what "targets" do you think there are in Afghanistan?i; > Kabul? Big deal... Lots of infrastructure you can hurt...o >   7 As someone pointed out on the radio this morning, theree: isn't much point bombing the Taleban back to the stone age4 since they are only in the bronze age at the moment.   Regardsx Andrew Harrisono Enterprise IT Architectm   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:47:00 -0600 (MDT)h" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> Subject: Re: World Trade CentereG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0109170630260.14150-100000@athena.csdco.com>e   Jan,  J There are reputable US analysts who are wondering whether bin Laden is the> guilty party.  See http://www.stratfor.com/home/0109162100.htm  H Rob Young: I hope you will spend some time looking at the stratfor site.  E Nobody doubts that the US will take action.  Delaying now will ensure  that it is got right.t  L George Bush did say "smoke 'em out and get them running, then catch them".  = This may actually be the policy and probably a good one if myg$ understanding of Texan is correct.    
 John Nebel    & On 17 Sep 2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:  / > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:h > B > > 	Knee jerk?  Consider the facts that Bin Laden was responsible@ > > 	for the WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and nowB > > 	a very wicked act of ramming the WTC towers and the Pentagon. > O > Really? I mean, evidence that would even remotely stand up in a court of law?lP > Or just allegations by some (likely US) government agency, citing sources thatO > cannot be revealed due to national security concerns? AFAIK, he has not takenw  > responsibility for those acts. >  > 	Jan >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:31:38 -0400t5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>5 Subject: Re: World Trade Center 2 Message-ID: <XOulO2vPYQoztSgcn1e2ElifrBBZ@4ax.com>   <snip>   >tG >No but the US should start to behave like a good citizen of the globalwG >village and take steps to reduce the favouritism and arrogance in manyu >foreign and domestic policies.   <     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat all= foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Dor9 you really want to put those countries that oppress theirl8 citizens on an equal footing with those that allow their7 citizens more freedom?  Think about the implications of  that choice.  F >This is not simply a military thing either.  The Kyoto Agreement is aE >good example of where the USA effectively told the rest of the worldiG >that it didn't care what damage US polution did to the environment andaF >to global warming.  This is not the hallmark of a good citizen of the >global village.  @     The Kyoto protocol was effectively killed by the U.S. Senate@ three years ago, President Bush simply and rightly put the final nail in the coffin.   B     While the surface record has shown an increase in temperature,C satellite data, weather ballon data, and proxy data (tree rings andc@ ice thinkness) have not.  Why do you suppose that is and what do) you think the most likely explanation is?o  E >Just because the USA is the biggest kid on the block it doesn't meanr* >that it shoul dforget to act responsibly.  B     No arguement there.  Despite the U.S. mistakes, I think you'll< find this country acts more responsibly that many would have you believe.   David R. Beattyt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:15:41 +0100d0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: World Trade CenterT* Message-ID: <3BA5F77D.61DA7516@uk.sun.com>   Martin Knoblauch wrote:i >  > Robert Deininger wrote:w > > N > > In article <9nrk7q$fju$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>
 > > wrote: > >e3 > > > > You call Tuesday an "avenue of expression"?a > > >.O > > > Of course.  Do you in any way believe that it was not meant as a message?e > >aL > > I dunno.  Maybe they were nuts enough to think in terms of actual damageM > > inflicted.  As a signigicant hurt, a way to lessen our influence in theirn > > part of the world. > >rM > > If it was meant as a message, what range of possible answers do you thinkr > > they expected? > >n > G >  my suspicion/fear is that the people behind Tuesdays attac just hope F > for gigantic US retaliation that will lead to the unification of theG > whole islamic world against the western culture. Than they would haveb8 > the "holy war" they are longing for. Call me paranoid. >   > I suspect you are right. Bin Ladin if it was him knows that he= cannot hope to overthrow the US. But by humiliating the US sor> publically and then provoking the US into a badly thought out B response he could hope to weaken the moderate Islamic governments > like Egypt and unify the Islamic world behind an anti-western  banner.A  ; The military rulers of Pakistan have come out in support of E bringing Bin Ladin to justice. However their ability to stay in powero; would be severely compromised by precipitate action by the s> US that caused collateral damage to other Muslims for example ? in Afganistan and if they are forced out of power they will be sA replaced by more militant Islamic leaders with access to Nuclear i Weapons.  < If this happens then Bin Ladin will have suceeded beyond his wildest dreams.    Regardsm Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architecto   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:28 +0100i/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>a Subject: re: World Trade Centerf7 Message-ID: <00A02310.468B3C91.21@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>u   cheljuba@prodigy.net wrote:h >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >  > <snip> > > K > > Terrorists will not surrender, roll over and either "play nice" or die.-I > > The only effective weapon we have is rendered useless by their beliefaK > > that if we use it, we will send them exactly where they want to go (the J > > "next life"), and thus they will continue motivating and even escalateK > > their motivation of the U.S. not only to continue a nuclear assault but4, > > even to escalate to a more global scale. > <snip> > M > Maybe not.  You don't see their leaders leading the wave to martyrdom.  AndaK > there are reports of some of these people cavorting and drinking in nudienJ > bars.  All of which makes me wonder whether they actually are interested  > in the next life as suggested.  F Me too. On that basis we should be thinking assassins. A few bullets, F accurately delivered, will be a lot more use than bombs and missiles.    > L > I submit it's about money and power, not religion.  Find the money and cutL > off its source, and make clear the power isn't achievable, and the war can	 > be won.a >    This was my thought too.   A (far-fetched?) idea...  I What if every crime boss in the western world received a menacing visitor L carrying two lists. One, with a list of known terrorists and supporters. TheA other, a list of crime bosses. This person delivers the following H verbal message: that if people on the "A" list don't start dropping deadK in the immediate future, people on the "B" list certainly will. Furthermore.M anyone on that "B" list whose money is even suspected of coming from or goingoL to the wrong places gets himself on the "A" list. Ditto anyone whose illegalG drugs are found to be coming from or via the middle east. Ditto anyone ( uncooperative.  I Not that they'd need too much encouragement. I suspect at least one crimetN gang high-up or relative thereof has died in the WTC, just by law of averages.C They're no keener than you or I on being killed by terrorists. Add tH the effects of massively increased government inquiry into black marketsM and of cashflows and of massively increased security at airports and customs  N halls to the threat of extra-judicial action against organised crime high-ups,M and I think most will be very cooperative. (The rest end up on the losing end  of a turf war).   J Methinks you've just tapped into an army of assassins who work for whoeverL pays them and have the local knowledge and cover that our armed forces lack.  F Horribly cynical I know. But I've heard no better ideas. Truth is, I'mJ willing to accept sharing a world with drugs gangs. Terrorists like these 
 ones, not.   	Yours,g
 		Nigel Arnoth- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   y  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."p   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:38:50 +0100i0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center * Message-ID: <3BA5FCEA.92D2577A@uk.sun.com>   john nixon wrote:a > B > I agree with part of your assertion.  A strictly air war will beK > inconclusive without followup ground action.  That ground action does nothI > have to mean mega-deaths (for us), but we need to be prepared for that.s > M > However, I disagree with the comparison to Kosovo.  There was some militaryrM > commander on television yesterday saying the difference would be in whether.L > we actually consider it a "state of war" or not.  In Kosov, he was saying,N > they had lawyers picking the targets and refusing permission to hit specificF > targets,  similar to the way targets were picked in Vietnam.  If theM > military is allowed to direct the war,  the outcome may have no resemblancen@ > to Kosovo or Vietnam.  However, there are still no guarantees. >   ; Well it depends on the rules of engagement for any bombing e' campaign on Afganistan (if it happens).n  : In Kosovo there was a large population of Muslim Albanians7 that the bombing was designed to protect not kill, thist9 let to the allies having to be very cautious about targetr< selection and weather conditions. You don't want to bomb the! people you are trying to protect.n  : If the US bombs Afganistan then there may be similar rules5 put in place to minimise injuries to Afgan civilians.f  9 Even if the decision is made to ignore collateral damage  " the lessons of Kosovo still apply.  5 The Serbs did not retreat from Kosovo because of the  9 level of damage inflicted on their military. The standoffs> bombing campaign against their armour and troops was much less< sucessfull than the alies thought at the time, instead they > retreated because the alies were sucessfully destroying their 9 infrastructure. They withdrew in part because they had a -3 lot to lose, Serbia is not a 3rd world country and :1 its people and rulers did not want to become one.i  9 In Afganistan there is virtually no infrastructure worth e@ bombing, its a 3rd world country and the people have very little8 to lose. At the same time the terrain is very harsh and 7 the military targets have had plenty of time to dig in r or disperse.  9 Because of this it is difficult to see how a non-nuclear i: bombing campaign can be sucessfull without the deployment  of land troops.n  f regardse Andrew Harrisonh Enterprise IT Architecta   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 07:28:14 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White)e Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd= Message-ID: <39779b25.0109170628.1c6578a3@posting.google.com>n  ^ "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3BA4FB82.3BA452@fsi.net>...G > For how long? Until the next terrorist( group) arises? ...and then wesF > have to do the whole thing all over again, perhaps next time after a? > strike on Chicago? ...Omaha? ...OK City (wouldn't *THAT* be a- > "whammy"!)? ...DFW? ...LA?    C You're talking like the terrorists, like these things are an act ofeD God, popping up here and there, nobody's fault. DOH: there's anotherF one...... DOH: there's another one... DOH: there's another one. Remind* you of someone? Someone who doesn't learn?   > nor have they [IRA] launched > such an assault on the UK.  E The IRA have launched many attacks on the UK, and have killed severalG hundred people.a  D The present government has taken brave, and in some areas, unpopular+ steps to resolve the causes of the problem.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:14:14 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h Subject: Re: World Trade Centerc8 Message-ID: <3v0cqt44nmbgatsifpk58jjh28r63e7v64@4ax.com>  . On 17 Sep 2001 12:55:03 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:    N >That would be delusional. It would be like attempting to stamp out infectiousO >diseases. Yeah, we likely managed to stamp out vaccinia (?), but that's a rareu >success among many defeats.   But George Bush said:yC http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41157-2001Sep16.html@  E "This *crusade*, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while," hetF told reporters after his return to the White House. But, he vowed, "we% will rid the world of the evil-doers"k   www.dictionary.com crusade (kr-sd) n. aD often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by EuropeanD Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims. t+ A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.  B A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.   F [French croisade, and Spanish cruzada both ultimately from Latin crux, cruc-, cross.] -------------------u  D Delusional or not Rob's right on the mark with his interpretation of< Bush's plans. I doubt the UK will go along with a 'crusade'. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 19:30:06 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center - Message-ID: <877kuycawx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:p  @ > Terrorists were reportedly operating within the U.S. for yearsF > planning the WTC attack.  We didn't have a clue - but I guess you'reD > saying that it's still Florida's fault and we should bomb the hell > out of it anyway?u  B Yes, but am I the only one who finds it odd that so much eviedenceA turns up in a few hours? Only thing missing is a "Read Me" label. ? Mind, nuking Florida would improve the area in many opinions :)l  e -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:56:45 +0000s  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade Centers/ Message-ID: <00256ACA.00579B03.00@quegw01.btyp>w  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    
 Is it odd?  J We don't really know to much about the why's and wherefore's, but if theseN people were of the impression that whoever was behind this was going to do theL usual and say 'It was us and we did it because...' then why would they worryP about leaving too much of a trail, especially if they knew they would be dead in
 any event?   Steve Spires        @ Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> on 09/17/2001 11:30:06 AM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) P From:      Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, 17 September 2001, 11:30 a.m.   Re: World Trade Center        ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:e  @ > Terrorists were reportedly operating within the U.S. for yearsF > planning the WTC attack.  We didn't have a clue - but I guess you'reD > saying that it's still Florida's fault and we should bomb the hell > out of it anyway?   B Yes, but am I the only one who finds it odd that so much eviedenceA turns up in a few hours? Only thing missing is a "Read Me" label.e? Mind, nuking Florida would improve the area in many opinions :)o   --< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:30:29 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)b Subject: Re: World Trade Center * Message-ID: <9o54ul$7o4$1@lisa.gemair.com>  * In article <3BA5F77D.61DA7516@uk.sun.com>,2 andrew harrison  <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> wrote: >. >Martin Knoblauch wrote: >> a >> Robert Deininger wrote: >> >O >> > In article <9nrk7q$fju$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>c >> > wrote:e >> >4 >> > > > You call Tuesday an "avenue of expression"? >> > >P >> > > Of course.  Do you in any way believe that it was not meant as a message? >> >M >> > I dunno.  Maybe they were nuts enough to think in terms of actual damageuN >> > inflicted.  As a signigicant hurt, a way to lessen our influence in their >> > part of the world.  >> >N >> > If it was meant as a message, what range of possible answers do you think >> > they expected?t >> > >> aH >>  my suspicion/fear is that the people behind Tuesdays attac just hopeG >> for gigantic US retaliation that will lead to the unification of theiH >> whole islamic world against the western culture. Than they would have9 >> the "holy war" they are longing for. Call me paranoid.  >> s >y? >I suspect you are right. Bin Ladin if it was him knows that hed> >cannot hope to overthrow the US. But by humiliating the US so? >publically and then provoking the US into a badly thought out rC >response he could hope to weaken the moderate Islamic governments s? >like Egypt and unify the Islamic world behind an anti-western e >banner. > < >The military rulers of Pakistan have come out in support ofF >bringing Bin Ladin to justice. However their ability to stay in power< >would be severely compromised by precipitate action by the ? >US that caused collateral damage to other Muslims for example a@ >in Afganistan and if they are forced out of power they will be B >replaced by more militant Islamic leaders with access to Nuclear 	 >Weapons.o >1  = While it is true that military action based in Pakistan couldt> be more or less unpopular there, and could even lead to social9 and political upheaval, it's unlikely that a Taliban-like ) regime could come into power in Pakistan.o  ? Pakistan is perhaps the most westernized of all countries whereoD Islam is the dominant religion.  Religious extreme political partiesC typically poll <%3.  Pakistan is the first and only country ever tooB elect a woman as head of state, which is quite a stark contrast to2 the Taliban where women have no rights whatsoever.  C The current Pakistani regime derives a lot of their popular supportoB from their stand on Kashmir and their aid to rebels in that IndianD province.  Perhaps the west can help broker some kind of arrangementD with India that would be more agreeable to Islamics and particularlyF the people of Kashmir.  Of course, the US will aid Pakistan with theirD crushing International debt, which will go a long way to stabilizing	 Pakistan.   G I would expect that things like this could help to offset the influenceeC of Moslem extremists in Pakistan, but I guess we'll have to see how  it unfolds.   E In any case, I don't see Pakistan used as a base from which to launchtI a widespread occupation of Afghanistan.  Particularly since that it seems)H that ex-Soviet republics won't be participating, the Afghani forces willC have a lot of room in which to maneuver.  More likely is the use ofh> Pakistan as a base for intelligence and quick strike missions.  = >If this happens then Bin Ladin will have suceeded beyond hisn >wildest dreams.  E Agreed.  That's what's so frightening about the possibility of Saddami1 Hussein and his efforts to develop these weapons.a   >o >Regards >Andrew Harrison >Enterprise IT Architect   -Jordan Henderson. jordan@greenapple.comd   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:10:28 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf3 Message-ID: <0IBsni3OQIfa@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  S In article <3BA50129.BECA07AB@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:  >  >  > Rob Young wrote: >> iV >> In article <3BA317FF.958E9FC3@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes: >> >I >> > I started out being very sympathetic to the USA but as the days passyH >> > their kneejerk reaction of reaching for a weapon and their stubbornB >> > refusal to even consider that their policies may somehow have< >> > contributed are combining to rapidly erode my sympathy. >> > >>  H >>         Knee jerk?  Consider the facts that Bin Laden was responsibleF >>         for the WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and nowH >>         a very wicked act of ramming the WTC towers and the Pentagon. >> eF >>         I would say that our patience has been more than exemplary. > F > Firstly, it has not been *proven* that he had anything to do with it  @ 	give me a break.  The fellows on that flight were known members 	of his organization.k   > orC > that he didn't give one of his people $50 million to do somethingb* > against the USA but said "surprise me !" >   < 	So by supporting terror but by not being directly linked orA 	aware of the actual method they choose that excuses him somehow?s 	give me a break.    >> i1 >>         Consider some U.S. neutral situations.aK >>         China invanded Vietnam because of border excursions and that wasoE >>         quite a battle for a while.  WWI broke out due to a singleaH >>         assasination.  Iran and Iraq fought a multi-year war and whatL >>         started that?  Iraq gassed Iranians in one of the more despicable& >>         acts in the 20th century... > E > And one would hope that the USA is more mature and responsible thang > these countries. > E > For the record, the assination that started WW I was no more than aaI > flashpoint for a situation that was already perilously close.  Much theeJ > same as the US ship gathering Intelligence in the Gulf of Tonkin was the > flashpoint for Vietnam.r >   > 	Don't even go there.  Tonkin can't even be made a comparison.B 	That wasn't thousands of Americans dying on American soil.  CheckG 	your history books and see what happens when we are attacked directly.i   >> a4 >>         Folks whine and carry on about "talking".M >>         The time for talking has long since passed and these folks want no J >>         interaction with us at all , short of terrorizing us.  They areE >>         certainly unapproachable and it really doesn't matter now.a > > > Aren't you in the least bit interested in discovering why ?? > D 	No.  After each one of these acts (WTC bombing, U.S.S. Cole) little= 	on the reasons "why" have been forthcoming.  I don't expect b 	anything for this one either.  D > Unless the US bothers to discover Why it will be very difficult toH > anticipate future attacks and under current circumstances, I would sayF > that they will be fairly inevitable.  More to the point, the bar has > been raised for terrorism. >   B 	So?  Apparently the long range goal here is to wipe out terrorism 	world-wide.  G > Would sir like his next terorist attack to be biological or nuclear ?r  @ 	I don't prefer flavors.  But whoever does whatever they do they> 	will surely understand that we will be hard after them and it7 	will no doubt be far worse than anything they do here.t   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 23:07:15 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centers- Message-ID: <87bsk96el8.fsf@prep.synonet.com>l  I Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:(  D > That would be delusional. It would be like attempting to stamp outD > infectious diseases. Yeah, we likely managed to stamp out vaccinia4 > (?), but that's a rare success among many defeats.   I think you mean Smallpox.   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:17:01 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerl3 Message-ID: <ZyPc$l7g60aj@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  Q In article <3BA50E48.7C1F318@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r >   K > I don't think that's the plan. Unless Bush is bluffing with Oscar winningeK > acting then I believe what he says. This is all out, multi-year war. OnlynQ > question. What's next and how soon? Is that what America really wants? A chanceo8 > to replay Vietnam on a global scale. I hope I'm wrong.  A 	You had congress micro-managing the Vietnam conflict.  Again, if B 	it hadn't been for Congress halting bombing during Christmas 1968D 	North Vietnam was ready to buckle.  Revisionist history perhaps but1 	I believe that came out of the North's archives.i  H 	Guessing - it seems much of what will occur will be stand-off in natureE 	.  Operationally, much was learned during the Gulf War - apparently.    				Robo   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:29:56 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)r Subject: Re: World Trade CenterK3 Message-ID: <uo3JQHXODrlm@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  R In article <3BA5194C.E472EBEF@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >  > N >>         The sad thing is that innocents will suffer.  That isn't comfortingM >>         and really presses home to me the whole matter of sin and darknessgL >>         in man's heart that causes him to do such things to each other inJ >>         the light of eternity and the surety that Christ will return in >>         all His glory.s >> > H > So the only thing that allows you to override your humanity is a (not  > provable by definition)t  @ 	Whose humanity?  Tell us the humane thing to do.  Tell us aboutD 	the humane acts of Sept. 11th.  Inhumane would be more descriptive.  ' > belief that Christ will save us all? e  A 	Scripture doesn't teach that.  In fact, this is what it teaches:   K "Enter through the narrow gate.  For wide is the gate and broad is the roadeL that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gateA and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." u   Matthew 7:13,14   A 	The Christian has an eternal hope as we know from Scripture this  	world passes away:      2 Peter 3:10,13y  N The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt withL fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.  O Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earthh in which righteousness dwells.   Revelation 21:1   J And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first2 earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.    4 > Remind me - Who's "Holy War" are we fighting here?  ? 	According to our President and various members of Congress, ite= 	is a war against terrorism.  A long campaign or so they say.    				RobI   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:33:17 -0400/ From: jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson)e Subject: Re: World Trade Centere* Message-ID: <9o58kd$dmm$1@lisa.gemair.com>  3 In article <ZyPc$l7g60aj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e, Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:R >In article <3BA50E48.7C1F318@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >>   >nL >> I don't think that's the plan. Unless Bush is bluffing with Oscar winningL >> acting then I believe what he says. This is all out, multi-year war. OnlyR >> question. What's next and how soon? Is that what America really wants? A chance9 >> to replay Vietnam on a global scale. I hope I'm wrong.: >eB >	You had congress micro-managing the Vietnam conflict.  Again, ifC >	it hadn't been for Congress halting bombing during Christmas 1968 E >	North Vietnam was ready to buckle.  Revisionist history perhaps butl2 >	I believe that came out of the North's archives. >G  F Revisionist indeed.  The US did force North Vietnam to "buckle" under B bombing and the mining of HaiPhong (sp?) harbor, only for them to 0 "unbuckle" and take the South a few years later.  D I trust the word of Col. Hackworth, the most decorated soldier in USC military history, over today's armchair Generals.  There was simply6@ no way that the US was going to win that war over the long term.  I >	Guessing - it seems much of what will occur will be stand-off in naturesF >	.  Operationally, much was learned during the Gulf War - apparently. >, >				Rob >n   -Jordan Hendersonc jordan@greenapple.comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:35:03 GMTw3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>m Subject: Re: World Trade Centern/ Message-ID: <3BA6243F.55111B86@cableinet.co.uk>r   Martin Knoblauch wrote:o  eG >  my suspicion/fear is that the people behind Tuesdays attac just hope F > for gigantic US retaliation that will lead to the unification of theG > whole islamic world against the western culture. Than they would have 8 > the "holy war" they are longing for. Call me paranoid. >  > Martin  rG no, more a realist:-), Interesting article in the Independent suggestedaF that goading the US into military intevention in the middle east wouldF be one of the only ways to topple pro-western rule in Saudi etc, which is Bin LAden's stated goal.i  6 Is it true internal news in the USA is being censored?   regardss -- s Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  t  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of S! my employers or service provider.R   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:48:41 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm3 Message-ID: <mZU8LW7D0q3f@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  R In article <9o490j$doo$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   > 9 >   We can pretty much be certain that 1-2 years from nowd@ >> terrorists *won't* be operating out of Afghanisitan (assumingA >> no infrastructure at all is left).  That's a nasty conclusion.O > I > There *already* isn't any significant infrastructure in Afghanistan, ateG > least none that bin Laden depends on.  Wiping out the pitiful Taliban M > government, such as it is, won't make the area any more or less hospitable.a >   E 	There is an airport.  There is electricity.  There are trucks largero@ 	than 1 ton in size.  There are bridges.  There are fuel depots.) 	There is cell phone communications, etc..   >>E >> The very large incentive would be not to have terrorists operating     H >> with impunity out of your country.  That is why somewhat surprisinglyD >> Saddam himself condemns this action.  The clear message of courseB >> is that if a terrorist act occurs against this country, we will >> come hard against you.h > M > Terrorists were reportedly operating within the U.S. for years planning thewJ > WTC attack.  We didn't have a clue - but I guess you're saying that it'sE > still Florida's fault and we should bomb the hell out of it anyway?  >   ? 	No.  They had plenty of cash and it came from somewhere.  TheytA 	were/are organized.  This is not going to be easy at all I would/ 	be silly to suggest it is.   L > The trouble with such 'solutions' is that they're ridiculously simplistic.L > The trouble with the U.S. leadership in this matter is that it seems to beN > equally simple-minded - and at the same time too powerful just to pat on the( > head and send out to play innocuously.  7 	Yep.  And like Pearl Harbor, large amounts of AmericaneD 	blood were spilled on American soil and for the most part AmericansF 	don't take too kindly to that.  No going outside to play innocuously.  C 	And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Donald rB 	Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"5 	pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ ofRG 	our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from California1 	on the other side.    				Robn   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:51:35 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e Subject: Re: World Trade Center 3 Message-ID: <0cJioxHVYUGP@eisner.encompasserve.org>-   In article <y4y9neumyy.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:< > A >> 	Knee jerk?  Consider the facts that Bin Laden was responsiblec? >> 	for the WTC bombing, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole and noweA >> 	a very wicked act of ramming the WTC towers and the Pentagon.  > O > Really? I mean, evidence that would even remotely stand up in a court of law?eP > Or just allegations by some (likely US) government agency, citing sources thatO > cannot be revealed due to national security concerns? AFAIK, he has not takenn  > responsibility for those acts. >   H 	Or course he hasn't.  But members of his organization were responsible.   				Robe   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:53:18 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t Subject: Re: World Trade Centera3 Message-ID: <Q1vba+CN6Z+q@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <y4vgiiulx4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:a > G >> The long-range goal (help me if I'm reading into this but I honestlytK >> am seeing it pop up everywhere) is to stamp out terrorism as we know it.a > O > That would be delusional. It would be like attempting to stamp out infectiouswP > diseases. Yeah, we likely managed to stamp out vaccinia (?), but that's a rare > success among many defeats.e >   @ 	The incidents of terrorism are very low or non-existent in someD 	countries.  That probably won't be the case here.  But that doesn't 	mean it isn't a worthy goal.b   				Robt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:41:27 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r- Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaqr( Message-ID: <9o49cv$dp4$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagea8 news:5nep7.47894$bl4.10710678@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...L > Looks like the VMS Group has received funding for additional headcount forK > the IPF port. All major ISVs (but one) on board. Dunno who's still on the J > outs, but all in all things don't look too bad.  This info from a pal of. > Charlie Matco and Cedric Zool: Lloyd Bridges! >  (Deep Diver, August 16, 2001).a  I Given that some recent report said that 2/3 of them were involved in thataI effort, they might have difficulty just handling maintenance without someu additional people.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:40:33 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a- Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaqe3 Message-ID: <YR56i2M74Hdu@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  u In article <5nep7.47894$bl4.10710678@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:,L > Looks like the VMS Group has received funding for additional headcount forK > the IPF port. All major ISVs (but one) on board. Dunno who's still on thea1 > outs, but all in all things don't look too bad.l  H As of last week's DECUS symposium, Oracle had not committed to port Rdb.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT)h. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>- Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaqh@ Message-ID: <20010917171237.86295.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>  1 I dont know why Oracle still with RDB, because its  is a unique product for OpenVMS.+ It should return to HP/Compaq and become ane unbundled product for OpenVMS.    + There is no Ingres, Sybase, or Informix fori OpenVMS.=20d   So RDB is the great option.R  1 You (legacy database customers) should port their 5 databases to RDB. It is the most well suited database-" for OpenVMS. And only for OpenVMS.   Regards:   FC=20       2 --- Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote: > In article5 > <5nep7.47894$bl4.10710678@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,o0 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>	 > writes:n5 > > Looks like the VMS Group has received funding fort > additional headcount for4 > > the IPF port. All major ISVs (but one) on board. > Dunno who's still on the3 > > outs, but all in all things don't look too bad.  >=203 > As of last week's DECUS symposium, Oracle had notr > committed to port Rdb.     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DvL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazila fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D>  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?t) Donate cash, emergency relief informationr7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/n   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Sep 2001 10:59:01 -07001 From: keithparris_nospam@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) % Subject: Re: WTC and High Availabilty = Message-ID: <dba3451e.0109170959.7a9d56a8@posting.google.com>i  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3BA2CEF8.34F67885@videotron.ca>...tJ > Consider that trading at the exchanges was halted/not started, so even aM > company with a disaster tolerant machine that could have stayed up wouldn'taN > really have had any advantage since that advantage was useless as long as as > everything was shutdown.  D There seems to be an implicit assumption here that all businesses inE the WTC or area were related to exchanges.  Or that transactions onlye? occur during normal stock-trading hours, Eastern Daylight Time.n  K > Also, since trading had not begun, it is likely that the backups from thenP > previous nights still provided the most "up to date" image of the corporation.  E Having to restore from backups entails some level of risk in itself. h6 What if the backups were flawed, or a tape unreadable?C ------------------------------------------------------------------- C Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:sC Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.518 ************************