1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 18 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 520       Contents: Re: aircraft fuels
 RE: Backup% Re: Backup to a Host Based Shadow Set  Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques Re: Bomb The Mosques* Compaq meeting at World Trade Center 9/11? Re: Dear HP... Re: DEC 3000-600 won't power up  Decnet Copy problem  Re: Decnet Copy problem # Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...  Re: I hate Compaq ( Re: Impact of WTC on HP disolving Compaq( Re: Impact of WTC on HP disolving Compaq increase command line buffer LIB$SIM_TRAP Re: LIB$SIM_TRAP Re: LIB$SIM_TRAP Re: LIB$SIM_TRAP Re: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channel- Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents - Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents K Re: Need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I need help!!! # Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ? # Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ? + Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3  Re: OpenGL 1.2 on OpenVMS/Alpha  Re: OpenGL 1.2 on OpenVMS/Alpha  Re: OT : XWD on VMS / OT: Additional perspective on the "911 attacks"  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  RE: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re-direction of output Re: Re-direction of output Re: Re-direction of output Re: Re-direction of output Re: Re-direction of output SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? ! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? @ The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date 5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ? 5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center RE: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 07:56:27 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: aircraft fuels 3 Message-ID: <HhNcI9cqNehn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3BA6A6A7.8F62CAA0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   G > I would think that the fault for not discovering such a blunder until B > startup, run-up or the take-off roll would lie with the pilot inJ > command. If you've done a proper fuel sample during your pre-flight, theE > tell-tale odor (or possibly even color!) of the fuel should raise a ! > responsible pilot's suspicions.   E    True, but many pilots fail to recheck when they see a pump labeled C    100LL.  And it can be hard to tell.  If you mix 100LL with Jet-A E    you're supposed to get a clear liquid, but the blue color of 100LL      is so light it can be missed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:04:43 +0200 7 From: "Dijk, Jeroen van" <Jeroen.vanDijk@Getronics.com>  Subject: RE: Backup O Message-ID: <2795B75EF003D311801A00A0C906B511011C6750@cucexec.gbc.getronics.nl>    > "Hoogenboom, Martin" wrote:  > >  > > Hi,  > >  > > I have a simple question: F > > Is it possible to backup a disk from one system, across a network,/ > > to a tape unit connecte to another system ? 2 > > If yes, how what needs to run on the systems ? > > > You MUST consider this very carefully. If you have a system  > disk failure> > on your system without the tape drive, how will you restore 
 > that system  > disk?  > D > Other considerations are what other effects of backing up over the? > network there are, if you share the network with others, are   > they doing0 > the same, will you affect other network users? > 7 > It is possible but you need to carefully consider it.  > --  * > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com  >   V It's possible to restore a systemdisk if you have an image backup from the systemdisk.n The company I work for is specialed in case like this. We have spare hardware and ways to do it for this kind  of events.    \ For sure you are making you self very hard to restore if you make a backup on a remote node.                      ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 08:11:38 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) . Subject: Re: Backup to a Host Based Shadow Set= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0109180711.219af3e6@posting.google.com>   c Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> wrote in message news:<3B953764.4C0CDF8@pressenter.com>... J > I've been doing some disk timings. We put in a pair of HSG80s and beforeG > I put them into production, I've been doing some backups from various F > disk configurations to other disk configurations. One that I haven'tJ > done, and I'd like to try, is to backup to a host based shadow set. I've: > been doing "Backup/image/verify" of about 5 Gig of info. > H > I know that "normally" one would backup to one disk, then "shadow" the@ > disk with it's new shadow member.  But that's not what I want.  D What you're proposing is fine, and will likely result in lower totalB elapsed times than doing the backup first and then the shadow copyD later.  It also protects the backup data as it is written.  If I hadA to repack a disk in-place, I'd feel a lot safer doing what you're D doing: having a 2nd disk with the backup data on it before I started? clobbering the original copying the data back.  That way you're > protected against a failure of the disk with the backup on it.  - > I'd like to be able to see what the timings > > are when the computer's trying to do all the shadow stuff...  B You would normally have write-back caching enabled on the HSG80s. D Given that, the extra latency involved in Volume Shadowing having toA do two write operations in parallel (that both land in write-back A cache and thus complete 'immediately') is likely to be small, but E measurable.  The "extra" CPU time of cloning a write IRP and queueing A it to both units will be harder to measure, if that's what you're @ interested in -- probably 1-3% higher CPU time than writing to aE single disk, from what I've heard.  Another interesting test would be C to compare the speed going to a controller-based mirrorset compared  with the host-based shadowset.  C So please do perform the tests and report your findings here, so we A can all learn from the results.  Not everyone has the blessing of @ having the hardware to do such tests, so we all benefit from the sharing of those who do.C ------------------------------------------------------------------- C Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on: C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 00:11:43 -0700/ From: Eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com)  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques = Message-ID: <d54d5475.0109172311.40a7f4d9@posting.google.com>   D Your missing my point I think.  At the end of the 40 days of BombingD the Mosques we would go in and get Osama anyway.  We would bring himC and his followers back to the US and put them on trial.  They would F spend the rest of their lives in a US prison.  Assuming the US inmatesF didn't rip them limb from limb.  Then we would go back and provide theF resources to the countries to rebuild and reconsicrate their Mosques. ? WE WOULD LOOK LIKE FREAKIN HEROS.  Instead of looking like evil C villians for tracking down and killing like a dog the man that they # uphold as a Holy Man and a Prophet.   E Its really a no win situation.  But sometimes you got to take drastic C action taking a loss now to save bigger potential losses later.  My E suggesting is a way that no one has to die, only real estate would be  damaged.  
 God Bless,  	 Eusphoros        M Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:<3BA320E6.6CAE24BB@home.nl>...  > Very bad thought. h > The problem is not Islam, but fundamentalist Islam. Just as fundamentalist Christianity has caused thei > death of millions and destruction of cultures, any kind of fundamentalist religion views causes nothing h > but trouble. Look at that idiot of a Jerry Fallwell claiming that feminists, homosexuals, or any otherg > group that doesn't fit into his narrow minded view caused God to be so angry that he let this happen. l > These ideas or not so very far from what mr. Bin Laden is preaching. The problem with these people is thatk > they think they can be a kind of God by proxy. Since God or Allah doesn't speak to us directly, they feel i > obliged to take over that job and call for the destruction of everything that doesn't comply with their  > view of what is right or not.  > _ > And please be very aware that the memory of the crusaders is still used as an excuse by Islam i > fundamentalists. Bombing mosques doesn't seem very helpfull and will only angry more moderate groups in  > Islam. > k > However an Israeli official did make an interesting suggestion. The people that do these suicide missions f > think they will go to paradise when they are dead. He suggested to cover the bodies of these suicidei > bombers in pigs blood. This way they will be unclean, and can not enter paradise. Sounds a bit strange, k > but this way their fundamentalist believes are used as a weapon against themselves. And if it works .....  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:16:34 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques 8 Message-ID: <rpaeqtsbpelais7a2hdea81jlfp962d2g3@4ax.com>  2 On 18 Sep 2001 00:11:43 -0700, Eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote:  E >Your missing my point I think.  At the end of the 40 days of Bombing E >the Mosques we would go in and get Osama anyway.  We would bring him   C By the end of that 40 days the middle east would be in flames and I C suspect so would much of the US. Also it is a non starter as the UK > and France would almost certainly threaten the US with nuclear@ response if it carried this out. Be clear about the insanity you
 propose here.   D >and his followers back to the US and put them on trial.  They wouldG >spend the rest of their lives in a US prison.  Assuming the US inmates G >didn't rip them limb from limb.  Then we would go back and provide the G >resources to the countries to rebuild and reconsicrate their Mosques.  @ >WE WOULD LOOK LIKE FREAKIN HEROS.  Instead of looking like evilD >villians for tracking down and killing like a dog the man that they$ >uphold as a Holy Man and a Prophet. > F >Its really a no win situation.  But sometimes you got to take drasticD >action taking a loss now to save bigger potential losses later.  MyF >suggesting is a way that no one has to die, only real estate would be	 >damaged.   C You can bomb all the mosques without anyone dying and go in and get > Bin Laden with no casualties? Has the US developed teleporters  recently? Must have missed that.   >God Bless,   D More like Satan bless by the sound of it. Is someone making the Omen 2001 live on CNN?   C What the hell would you think if someone started bombing all the US 	 churches?    > 
 >Eusphoros >    >  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:53:13 +0200 < From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques ( Message-ID: <3BA735A9.A1459BB6@home.com>   Alan Greig wrote: E > What the hell would you think if someone started bombing all the US  > churches?    Or all US mosques...  	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 07:59:08 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques 3 Message-ID: <DYjKiuCYVyFx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <d54d5475.0109172311.40a7f4d9@posting.google.com>, Eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) writes: F > Your missing my point I think.  At the end of the 40 days of Bombing2 > the Mosques we would go in and get Osama anyway.  A    Sorry, there are three US Mosques within a mile of my home.  I ?    have many Muslim neighbors.  You bomb them and I shoot back.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:38:34 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques 2 Message-ID: <tz+nO=wdceeMf5kbI+HQuoU257bh@4ax.com>  4     Well put, Chip.  I have no doubt the majority of0 Muslims are peace-loving people that simply want9 to live their lives as they see fit.  Bombing the Mosques 0 would simply incite the rest of the Muslim world2 against us, and I would not blame them one bit for feeling that way.    David R. Beatty   0 On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:55:38 -0400, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:   > 6 >Blaming all Muslims for what happened last Tuesday is< >as idiotic as blaming all white folks for the Ku Klux Klan. > : >My neighbor across the street is from Iraq and is just as$ >horrified at what happened as I am. > ? >I told him to be careful, that there were a lot of folks whose 3 >anger was overriding their common sense out there.  >  >WWWebb  >  >> -----Original Message----- 2 >> From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ >> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:00 AM E >> To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET   >> Subject: RE: Bomb The Mosques >> >> >> Israel Raj T wrote: >> >7 >> > On 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700, eusphoros@yahoo.com ! >> > (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote:  >> >? >> > >I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per day  >> for 40 days. >> > >until Osama and his followers surrender. >> > >> >> >> >5 >> > Bomb one single Mosque and you strengthen Osama.  >> >>; >>  and this is exactely what he (or whoever is behind last  >> Tuesday) wants I >> - a united Islamic world in war against the west. I just say to Bush - . >> be very careful in what you are doing next. >>	 >> Martin  >> -- E >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ E >> Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de : >> TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309: >> C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-1118 >> http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759 >>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:18:12 GMT . From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques 8 Message-ID: <fsgeqtk9md94vnclui9r9bmh13od15her1@4ax.com>  2 On 18 Sep 2001 00:11:43 -0700, Eusphoros@yahoo.com (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote:  E >Your missing my point I think.  At the end of the 40 days of Bombing E >the Mosques we would go in and get Osama anyway.  We would bring him : >and his followers back to the US and put them on trial.  & >Then we would go back and provide theG >resources to the countries to rebuild and reconsicrate their Mosques.  # >WE WOULD LOOK LIKE FREAKIN HEROS.      No, you would look like corpses. 90 % would not care.F However, enough would care and be driven to action that the WTC affair# would look like a backyard bonfire.   " Two not totally irrelevant points:B 1. According to Janes , the largest  number of suicide bombers has? been from the Liberation Tamil Tigers Eelam and not from MiddleB Eastern groups:   D "The LTTE is fighting for an independent Tamil state in northeasternC Sri Lanka. As the quality of targets chosen by the LTTE is high, itTF has a sophisticated training programme that lasts for about a year. AsE well as training the bomber, the LTTE research unit tests the effectsb< of explosives on dogs and goats to ensure that the attack isA successful. The list of Sri Lankan VIPs killed in suicide attacksqF includes one president, one presidential candidate, the State Minister8 of Defence, the Navy Chief and various area commanders."  A They have sent out 168 suicide bombers who successfully deliveredlC their payloads.  Al Quaeda had sent out just 2 at the time that the  article had been written.   ' Now just imagine WTC multiplied by 168.m  B 2.   Here is a link to an interesting article on Jihad Akbar ( The7 Greater Jihad ) and Jihad Asghar ( The Lesser Jihad ).    C Mainstream Muslim opinion is that the greater and more praiseworthyMB Jihad" is the war  against the desires and "Shaitaan" whilst Jihad> Asghar is against the disbelievers on the battlefield. ie: TheC struggle against oneself is more praiseworthy than violent struggled against another.  A However, the article ( from a less representative , more  radical C group  and not at all mainstream as the author himself points out )T@ espouses the reverse view. Just imagine the consequences if this$ became the dominant mainstream view.     See: Greater and lesser Jihad9 Compiled by Abu Fadl - Translated by Br. Khalid Saifullaho- http://www.islam.org.au/articles/26/jihad.htmr     Appendix A:  From Janes:s# Suicide terrorism: a  global threatpP http://www.janes.com/security/regional_security/news/usscole/jir001020_1_n.shtml  + NUMBER OF SUICIDE ATTACKS BETWEEN 1980-2000   F The  Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka and in India 168r  @ Hizbullah and pro-Syrian groups in Lebanon, Kuwait and Argentina 52   Hamas in Israele 22  , The Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK) in Turkey 15  - The Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) in Israelr 8    Al Quaida in East Africa 2   + The Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) in Croatia  1   # The  Islamic Group (IG) in Pakistant 1   * Barbar Khalsa International (BKI) in India 1e  ) The  Armed Islamic Group (GIA) in Algeria  1    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400l# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>r Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosqueso* Message-ID: <3BA7517C.F896393@hsc.vcu.edu>  C same here...  we really need to go in with foot infantry or really,eH really smart weapons, and take the terrorists out.  it seems the TalibanA is the current Nazis in control of the Afgan people.  if we start % bombing only....  the jig may be up..    David Beatty wrote:  > 6 >     Well put, Chip.  I have no doubt the majority of2 > Muslims are peace-loving people that simply want; > to live their lives as they see fit.  Bombing the Mosquesr2 > would simply incite the rest of the Muslim world4 > against us, and I would not blame them one bit for > feeling that way.o >  > David R. Beatty- > 2 > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:55:38 -0400, WILLIAM WEBB  > <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote: >  > >58 > >Blaming all Muslims for what happened last Tuesday is> > >as idiotic as blaming all white folks for the Ku Klux Klan. > >e< > >My neighbor across the street is from Iraq and is just as& > >horrified at what happened as I am. > > A > >I told him to be careful, that there were a lot of folks whosei5 > >anger was overriding their common sense out there.t > > 	 > >WWWebb  > >n > >> -----Original Message-----a4 > >> From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET- > >> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:00 AM G > >> To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo" > >> Subject: RE: Bomb The Mosques > >> > >> > >> Israel Raj T wrote: > >> >9 > >> > On 14 Sep 2001 13:59:40 -0700, eusphoros@yahoo.coma# > >> > (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote:  > >> >A > >> > >I believe we should Bomb the Mosques.  One Mosque per daye > >> for 40 days0 > >> > >until Osama and his followers surrender. > >> > > >> > >> > >> >7 > >> > Bomb one single Mosque and you strengthen Osama.C > >> > >>= > >>  and this is exactely what he (or whoever is behind last  > >> Tuesday) wants K > >> - a united Islamic world in war against the west. I just say to Bush -e0 > >> be very careful in what you are doing next. > >> > >> Martins > >> -- G > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ G > >> Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.det< > >> TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309< > >> C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111: > >> http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759 > >>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:13:39 GMT 2 From: "H1Dunc" <duncwremovethis@nospamhotmail.com> Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques C Message-ID: <DwJp7.10474$Tv6.54543@news1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au>   H hypothetically if  someone wanted to creat a counter effect like the WTC bombingsJ -how would  some suicidal pilots flying bombs into the politicaly symbolicK center (MECCA)of the of the proponents of the WTC job effect the mindset ofe the politics of islam .d( Particularly if it was full of pilgrims.K Do you think there are non moslems out there crazy(devoted & heroic) enoughp to do this.8D How would it be if some ex marine with a few million dollars startedG training and indoctrinating some impreshionable young boys? could it be9 done?o  ; "Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in messagew2 news:fsgeqtk9md94vnclui9r9bmh13od15her1@4ax.com...4 > On 18 Sep 2001 00:11:43 -0700, Eusphoros@yahoo.com > (Eusphoros@yahoo.com) wrote: >uG > >Your missing my point I think.  At the end of the 40 days of BombingkG > >the Mosques we would go in and get Osama anyway.  We would bring him : > >and his followers back to the US and put them on trial.( > >Then we would go back and provide theH > >resources to the countries to rebuild and reconsicrate their Mosques.$ > >WE WOULD LOOK LIKE FREAKIN HEROS. > " > No, you would look like corpses. > 90 % would not care.H > However, enough would care and be driven to action that the WTC affair% > would look like a backyard bonfire.h >t$ > Two not totally irrelevant points:D > 1. According to Janes , the largest  number of suicide bombers hasA > been from the Liberation Tamil Tigers Eelam and not from Middlei > Eastern groups:d > F > "The LTTE is fighting for an independent Tamil state in northeasternE > Sri Lanka. As the quality of targets chosen by the LTTE is high, ituH > has a sophisticated training programme that lasts for about a year. AsG > well as training the bomber, the LTTE research unit tests the effectsv> > of explosives on dogs and goats to ensure that the attack isC > successful. The list of Sri Lankan VIPs killed in suicide attacksaH > includes one president, one presidential candidate, the State Minister: > of Defence, the Navy Chief and various area commanders." >xC > They have sent out 168 suicide bombers who successfully deliveredwE > their payloads.  Al Quaeda had sent out just 2 at the time that thea > article had been written.  >t) > Now just imagine WTC multiplied by 168.. >nD > 2.   Here is a link to an interesting article on Jihad Akbar ( The8 > Greater Jihad ) and Jihad Asghar ( The Lesser Jihad ). >eE > Mainstream Muslim opinion is that the greater and more praiseworthywD > Jihad" is the war  against the desires and "Shaitaan" whilst Jihad@ > Asghar is against the disbelievers on the battlefield. ie: TheE > struggle against oneself is more praiseworthy than violent struggle- > against another. > C > However, the article ( from a less representative , more  radical E > group  and not at all mainstream as the author himself points out ) B > espouses the reverse view. Just imagine the consequences if this& > became the dominant mainstream view. >o >m > See: > Greater and lesser Jihad; > Compiled by Abu Fadl - Translated by Br. Khalid Saifullah / > http://www.islam.org.au/articles/26/jihad.htm  >  >d
 > Appendix A: 
 > From Janes:w% > Suicide terrorism: a  global threatu >bL http://www.janes.com/security/regional_security/news/usscole/jir001020_1_n.s html >h- > NUMBER OF SUICIDE ATTACKS BETWEEN 1980-2000  > H > The  Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka and in India > 168e >eB > Hizbullah and pro-Syrian groups in Lebanon, Kuwait and Argentina > 52 >D > Hamas in IsraelH > 22 >s. > The Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK) in Turkey > 15 >d/ > The Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) in Israel  > 8y >n > Al Quaida in East Africa > 2n >i- > The Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) in Croatias > 1  >i% > The  Islamic Group (IG) in Pakistane > 1  >s, > Barbar Khalsa International (BKI) in India > 1  >d+ > The  Armed Islamic Group (GIA) in Algeriao > 1s   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 09:20:12 -0700) From: google@mccready.com (Gary McCready)b3 Subject: Compaq meeting at World Trade Center 9/11?n< Message-ID: <6e64ea70.0109180820.8ef5852@posting.google.com>  D I heard there was a Compaq meeting for customers re the HP merger onF 9/11/01 at the World Trade center; anyone know of anyone who attended, or was invited?w   --Gary McCreadye0 -My opinions have nothing to do with my employer   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 09:56:43 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)f Subject: Re: Dear HP...n= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0109180856.3a91ce9e@posting.google.com>i  p "ClaudeVMS" <claudevms@freevms.org> wrote in message news:<rlBm7.67209$c8.34354308@news1.denver1.co.home.com>...F > Let me check my Digital top seven list of really smart things to do: ...yB > 3. Not lowering the price of VMS and competing with 'nix vendors > head-to-head.h  E Digital actually did this circa 1993.  The same box sold with Unix ornA VMS was set at the exact same price.  The immediate result was annB increase in the number of VMS licenses and VMS systems sold, but aE decrease in VMS operating system sales revenues.  The Unix proponentsiE jumped on this and trumpeted "VMS sales are dropping!" and used it inuE their propoganda both inside and outside the company as an indicationTD that VMS was indeed dying, and that Unix was indeed destined to take over the world. C -------------------------------------------------------------------hC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:-C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O@   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Sep 01 12:16:58 GMT- From: jason@azure.dstc.edu.au (jason andrade)e( Subject: Re: DEC 3000-600 won't power up* Message-ID: <jason.1000815418@dstc.edu.au>  . Stephen Eickhoff <operagost@email.com> writes:  J >I have one of these babies that hasn't been turned on for at least three G >years. I don't even get any lights or fans when I flip the switch. Is  E >there some sort of power interlock I should be looking for? Failing  D >that, can anyone give me hints on swapping the power supply from a E >working 400 I have into this unit? I think the extra speed would be e
 >worth it.  G the power supplies do die - i've had to transplant a few between 3400s.e  E yes, the extra speed is noticeable - 133Mhz vs 175Mhz (30% faster..).i    C it's pretty simple to swap the power supplies - i haven't done thissD for a while, but i think there's one or more screws which hold it in@ place and a few things it plugs into (motherboard, devices etc).  : just document what was plugged into where and do the swap.     cheers,a   -jason   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:19:07 +0800t' From: "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>  Subject: Decnet Copy problem0 Message-ID: <9o7odq$lu91@imsp212.netvigator.com>  I When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns thes error "Network partner exist".  # I have check and try the following: ; 1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails.tJ 2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing logged.) 3. I have do the following NCL in node B:t     NCL> show node 03     - it will returns the tower set and successful.     NCL> show node B <    - it will fail with the error application not responding.I 4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both  group and world.  K I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything In can do?o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:58:04 GMTU3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem. Message-ID: <3BA76EE1.B672BB4@cableinet.co.uk>   Kenneth wrote: > K > When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns then  > error "Network partner exist". > % > I have check and try the following:o= > 1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails. L > 2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing logged.+ > 3. I have do the following NCL in node B:  >     NCL> show node 05 >     - it will returns the tower set and successful.y >    NCL> show node B > >    - it will fail with the error application not responding.K > 4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for bothe > group and world. > M > I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything I 	 > can do?p  @ CHeck the operator log and/or accounting log on node B for login failures that  may be related to this.    Can you "$set host B " from A?   that might get you started   regards    -- l Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of n! my employers or service provider.I   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:42:33 -0700w' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> , Subject: Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...+ Message-ID: <3BA76B69.A8A3B2E1@caltech.edu>m   Bill Todd wrote:  K > Still sounds as if Itanic's future is still up for grabs, rather than ther0 > shoo-in Compaq (and HP) would like to believe. >h  O Nah, it's all sewn up, and neither technical criteria nor  consumer choice haveFM anything to do with it.  When AMD  crushes the IA64 with Hammer  (surely what2H AMD intended by that name) Intel will buy AMD and discontinue all HammerO development..   If the FTC sees nothing anticompetitve about  Intel controlling>O ARM, PA-RISC, Alpha, and Pentium then surely they'll have no problem with Intel.N absorbing AMD as well.  Intel will point to the IBM , Transmeta, and Sun chipsK and say "look, there's still competition!"  It's pretty much the same logic>I that says Microsoft isn't a monopoly so long as Corel ships a few hundred  copies of Wordperfect office a year.o  M And just because I'm being sarcastic doesn't mean it won't play out this way.n   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu             >y > - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:06:30 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>l Subject: Re: I hate CompaqH Message-ID: <y4d74ox6rd.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:1  F > There _is_ one good thing about Intel's rejection rate, it increasesF > solar cell production.  According to the company that installed the J > solar cells on our house, the panels were made from Intel's fab rejects.  F Not the ones that have been through all processing steps and then failF testing, surely? Those are already doped all over the place, and have E oxide and metal layers in all the wrong pllaces. Quite apart that youMH only get seperate die, not a whole wafer (one hopes). And I can't quite > imagine that there are many rejected wafers before processing.   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:19:44 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)K1 Subject: Re: Impact of WTC on HP disolving Compaqe' Message-ID: <9o7akg$hei$1@joe.rice.edu>   . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote:J : With the drop in share prices and the continued drop of the Compaq shareL : prices, are there thresholds below which one can assume that HP will wake @ : up, smell the coffee and drop its plans to assimilate Compaq ? : . : Or is that now past the point of no return ? :t From:s  4    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7082776.html@    HP-Compaq: Breaking up is hard to do -  Tech News -  CNET.com  H   "...According to documents filed with the U.S. Securities and ExchangeC    Commission, either company could be forced to pay a $675 million G    breakup fee to the other if it is responsible for the failure of thel    multibillion-dollar deal.  I    Specifically, one of the companies would be liable to pay the other if G    its shareholders were to fail to approve the deal, if its board wereiC    to change or withdraw approval of the deal, or if one of the twohI    companies were to cause the deal to be delayed beyond May 30, 2002, or *    Aug. 30 under certain circumstances..."   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:43:35 +0000 (UTC)n' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) 1 Subject: Re: Impact of WTC on HP disolving Compaqo+ Message-ID: <9o7j27$958$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>t  S In article <9o7akg$hei$1@joe.rice.edu>, leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) writes:e/ >JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote:p >sI >  "...According to documents filed with the U.S. Securities and ExchangefD >   Commission, either company could be forced to pay a $675 millionH >   breakup fee to the other if it is responsible for the failure of the >   multibillion-dollar deal.h > J >   Specifically, one of the companies would be liable to pay the other ifH >   its shareholders were to fail to approve the deal, if its board wereD >   to change or withdraw approval of the deal, or if one of the twoJ >   companies were to cause the deal to be delayed beyond May 30, 2002, or+ >   Aug. 30 under certain circumstances..."R  G Is that legal !! Can the shareholders (who in theory own the companies)e' really be held to ransome in that way ?r  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:44:03 -0700) From: don.weber@mail.tamucc.edu (donmann) % Subject: increase command line buffers= Message-ID: <6cbf112a.0109180944.4e083ffb@posting.google.com>   D I am trying to call a procedure with two arguments.  The second is a@ string that I build but at times the string gets too big for the buffer size. Any ideas?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:50:09 -0400a- From: Michael Austin <firstdbasource@att.net>e Subject: LIB$SIM_TRAP7' Message-ID: <3BA734F1.A01A0875@att.net>e  F Does anyone have an equivelent Alpha routine for LIB$SIM_TRAP that canB be used in  a FORTRAN program?  If not, what would you use in it's place?           INTEGER*4n      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,b      +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT,      +    lib$sim_trap,w      +    stat,       +    indexI         EXTERNAL      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,       +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT,      +    lib$sim_trap     100     CONTINUE         mechargs(4) = .FALSE.o         handler = ss$_normal1         HANDLER = lib$sim_trap(sigargs, mechargs)m%         call sys$unwind(mechargs(3),)o? !!!     STAT = SYS$GETMSG ( %VAL(SIGARGS(2)), MSGLEN, ERRMSG,,)0  !!!     TYPE *, ERRMSG(1:MSGLEN)         CALL WAIT (5,2)          return     Michael Austin   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:50:01 -0400l, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> Subject: Re: LIB$SIM_TRAP 0 Message-ID: <gcIp7.354$mb6.27779@brie.direct.ca>  : "Michael Austin" <firstdbasource@att.net> wrote in message! news:3BA734F1.A01A0875@att.net... H > Does anyone have an equivelent Alpha routine for LIB$SIM_TRAP that canD > be used in  a FORTRAN program?  If not, what would you use in it's > place?  E Alpha systems do not have floating point faults - they are all traps,o= using the single condition code SS$_HPARITH.  It was only theuA VAX11/750 (I think) that used floating overflow/underflow/divide-2, by-zero faults - every other Vax used traps.  A So, you'll never need LIB$SIM_TRAP in a native mode Alpha image - C it can be removed.  If you're just handling the error to unwind theiI stack, you should be okay.  If you're trying to fix the error, you have am lot I more work to do - Alpha arithmetic exception traps are imprecise, requirec some special coding sequences.   Scott  >> >         INTEGER*4> >      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,w >      +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT, >      +    lib$sim_trap,y >      +    stat,u >      +    index  >         EXTERNAL >      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,- >      +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT, >      +    lib$sim_trap >M >i > 100     CONTINUE >         mechargs(4) = .FALSE.a >         handler = ss$_normal3 >         HANDLER = lib$sim_trap(sigargs, mechargs) ' >         call sys$unwind(mechargs(3),)7A > !!!     STAT = SYS$GETMSG ( %VAL(SIGARGS(2)), MSGLEN, ERRMSG,,) " > !!!     TYPE *, ERRMSG(1:MSGLEN) >         CALL WAIT (5,2)1 >         return >H >n > Michael Austin >o >m >m >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:14:39 -0400w+ From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>l Subject: Re: LIB$SIM_TRAPe8 Message-ID: <29leqtcktvs8e67bh3lmt3gmr57hv48v9h@4ax.com>  4 On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:50:01 -0400, "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> wrote:   >r; >"Michael Austin" <firstdbasource@att.net> wrote in messageo" >news:3BA734F1.A01A0875@att.net...I >> Does anyone have an equivelent Alpha routine for LIB$SIM_TRAP that candE >> be used in  a FORTRAN program?  If not, what would you use in it'sh	 >> place?i >dF >Alpha systems do not have floating point faults - they are all traps,> >using the single condition code SS$_HPARITH.  It was only theB >VAX11/750 (I think) that used floating overflow/underflow/divide-- >by-zero faults - every other Vax used traps.h  B You have it backwards.  Traps (where the instruction completes andB stores a result) was the initial implementation on the VAX-11/780.F All other models, and the 780 too after a microcode update, used fault> behavior, where the instruction's effects are "undone" and the2 exception PC is that of the erroneous instruction.  F Alpha behavior is more complicated.  A floating point exception occursC but the exception may not be delivered until one or more additionaltB instructions execute.  If you have told the compiler that you wantE "synchronous exception" behavior, it generates "wait" instructions soa> that it is possible to back up execution with the guarantee ofF restoring all registers.  You need to write a more elaborate exception handler to deal with this.  C There is no equivalent to LIB$SIM_TRAP on Alpha - most VAX programssF that used this did so in an attempt to store a predefined value as theF result of a floating exception.  I suggest that programs which do this@ be rewritten to test operands to make sure the exception doesn't happen in the first place.     Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporations
 Nashua, NH   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:46:37 GMTe3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>i Subject: Re: LIB$SIM_TRAPy/ Message-ID: <3BA76C31.4F8D45D0@cableinet.co.uk>h   Michael Austin wrote:b > H > Does anyone have an equivelent Alpha routine for LIB$SIM_TRAP that canD > be used in  a FORTRAN program?  If not, what would you use in it's > place? >    Michaele  9 presumably you have tried the programming concepts manuall  L http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/5841/5841pro_032.html#index_x_895L http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/5841/5841pro_032.html#index_x_915  E my initial reading is that its not required on Alpha because floatings
 point trap9 is not a hardware fault on Alpha and hence not an issue. e  / Now, where is that Alpha architecture manual...s   regards    >         INTEGER*4  >      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,  >      +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT, >      +    lib$sim_trap,a >      +    stat,  >      +    indexp >         EXTERNAL >      +    LIB$MATCH_COND,m >      +    LIB$FIXUP_FLT, >      +    lib$sim_trap >  > 100     CONTINUE >         mechargs(4) = .FALSE.h >         handler = ss$_normal3 >         HANDLER = lib$sim_trap(sigargs, mechargs)o' >         call sys$unwind(mechargs(3),)pA > !!!     STAT = SYS$GETMSG ( %VAL(SIGARGS(2)), MSGLEN, ERRMSG,,) " > !!!     TYPE *, ERRMSG(1:MSGLEN) >         CALL WAIT (5,2)e >         return >  > Michael Austin   --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:08:12 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: memory channel ) Message-ID: <3BA70EFC.321111A3@127.0.0.1>    Tom Simpson wrote: nG > I hope your memory channel configuration includes a hub...  Direct MC  > connection > is a problem.G  @ *May* be a problem. I too can report that we have a stable mixedH architecture cluster, the Alphas are in virtual hub mode and the systemsG are stable (c/w multiple interconnects). We're aware of the informationeD from Compaq but as our systems are stable, we're just monitoring the
 situation.   -- s( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comr   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:23:46 +0000 (UTC)r' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)o Subject: Re: memory channel + Message-ID: <9o77bi$5k7$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   g In article <qOrp7.161481$aZ.28738000@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:rH >I thought I was told that memory channel is not supported on the 2100s. >c   ANAL/SYSTEM8   SDA>CLUE CONFIG.   System Configuration:S ---------------------g System Information:wI System Type   AlphaServer 2100 5/300                    Primary CPU ID 00 K Cycle Time    3.4 nsec (291 MHz)                        Pagesize       8192  Byte   Memory Configuration:wD Cluster    PFN Start    PFN Count         Range (MByte)        UsageF  #00             0          256         0.0 MB -     2.0 MB    ConsoleE  #01           256       163575         2.0 MB -  1279.9 MB    SystemsF  #02        163831            9      1279.9 MB -  1280.0 MB    Console  # Per-CPU Slot Processor Information:oK CPU ID         00                        CPU State    rc,pa,pp,cv,pv,pmv,pln" CPU Type       EV5  Pass 4 (21164)G PAL Code       1.20-3                    Halt PC      00000000.20000000 G CPU Revision   ....                      Halt PS      00000000.00001F00-N Serial Number  ..........                Halt Code    "Bootstrap or Powerfail"J Console Vers   V5.3-6                    Halt Request "Default, No Action"  K CPU ID         01                        CPU State    rc,pa,pp,cv,pv,pmv,plT     Press RETURN for more. SDA>   System Configuration:R ---------------------o" CPU Type       EV5  Pass 4 (21164)G PAL Code       1.20-3                    Halt PC      00000000.00000000vG CPU Revision   ....                      Halt PS      00000000.00001F00aN Serial Number  ..........                Halt Code    "Bootstrap or Powerfail"J Console Vers   V5.3-6                    Halt Request "Default, No Action"  K CPU ID         02                        CPU State    rc,pa,pp,cv,pv,pmv,plo" CPU Type       EV5  Pass 4 (21164)G PAL Code       1.20-3                    Halt PC      00000000.00000000aG CPU Revision   ....                      Halt PS      00000000.00001F00sN Serial Number  ..........                Halt Code    "Bootstrap or Powerfail"J Console Vers   V5.3-6                    Halt Request "Default, No Action"       Press RETURN for more. SDA> Adapter Configuration: ----------------------F TR Adapter     ADP               Hose Bus   BusArrayEntry     Node CSR'   Vec/IRQ Port Slot Device Name / HW-Id-O -- ----------- ----------------- ---- ----------------------- ---- ------------m/ --------- ---- ---- ---------------------------7*  1 KA0905      FFFFFFFF.8109A6C0    0 CBUSO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109A918    0 FFFFFFFF.920k 6000              0 KA0902_CPUO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109A950    1 FFFFFFFF.920i 8000              1 KA0902_CPUO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109A988    2 FFFFFFFF.920i A000              2 KA0902_CPUO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109A9F8    4 FFFFFFFF.920- C000              4 KA0902_MEMO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AA30    5 FFFFFFFF.920x E000              5 KA0902_MEMO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AA68    6 FFFFFFFF.920  0000              6 KA0902_MEMO                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AAA0    7 FFFFFFFF.920l 2000              7 KA0902_MEM       Press RETURN for more.J SDA>TR Adapter     ADP               Hose Bus   BusArrayEntry     Node CSR'   Vec/IRQ Port Slot Device Name / HW-Id B -- ----------- ----------------- ---- ----------------------- ----
 -------------a/ --------- ---- ---- ---------------------------EB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AAD8    8
 FFFFFFFF.9208B 4000              8 KA0902_IIO)  2 PCI         FFFFFFFF.8109AB80    0 PCI B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AE18    0
 FFFFFFFF.9208  6000    8 EWA:    0 NI (Tulip)B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AE50    8
 FFFFFFFF.9208i# 8000    4 PKA:    1 NCR 53C810 SCSIfB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AE88   10
 FFFFFFFF.9208  A000    0         2 MERCURY B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AFA0   38
 FFFFFFFF.922El$ 4000   10 PKB:    7 FWD SCSI (KZPSA)B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109AFD8   40
 FFFFFFFF.922E " 6000   14         8 Memory Channel*  3 EISA        FFFFFFFF.8109B3C0    0 EISA         Press RETURN for more. SDA> Adapter Configuration: ----------------------F TR Adapter     ADP               Hose Bus   BusArrayEntry     Node CSR'   Vec/IRQ Port Slot Device Name / HW-IdgB -- ----------- ----------------- ---- ----------------------- ----
 ------------- / --------- ---- ---- --------------------------- B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109B618    0
 FFFFFFFF.9208v  C000    0         0 System BoardB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109B650    1
 FFFFFFFF.920AW% C000   10 GQA:    1 QVision (CPQ3011)(*  4 XBUS        FFFFFFFF.8109B9C0    0 XBUSB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109BC18    0
 FFFFFFFF.9208 % C000    0         0 EISA_SYSTEM_BOARD>B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109BC50    1
 FFFFFFFF.9208  C000    7 DVA:    1 FloppyB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109BC88    2
 FFFFFFFF.9208m0 C000    9 LRA:    2 Line Printer (parallel port)B                                             FFFFFFFF.8109BCC0    3
 FFFFFFFF.9208W' C000    8 TTA:    3 NS16450 Serial PortcB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109BCF8    4
 FFFFFFFF.9208a' C000    F TTB:    4 NS16450 Serial Port        Press RETURN for more. SDA> Adapter Configuration: ----------------------F TR Adapter     ADP               Hose Bus   BusArrayEntry     Node CSR'   Vec/IRQ Port Slot Device Name / HW-IdDB -- ----------- ----------------- ---- ----------------------- ----
 -------------v/ --------- ---- ---- ---------------------------g)  5 MEMCHAN     FFFFFFFF.8109BF00    0 PCIiB                                             FFFFFFFF.8109C198   40
 FFFFFFFF.922E " 6000   14 MCA:    8 Memory Channel SDA>        < Memory channel was installed on these systems in early 1998.      
 David Webb VMS and unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    5 >"D.Webb" <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messagei& >news:9o5ct0$gj3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...L >> In article <h02p7.271$d44.397345@typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net>, "Tom- >Simpson" <simpsont@xxx.mediaone.net> writes: L >> >We had many unexplained system crashes on our 2 node ES40 cluster, about >oneI >> >a month.  The crash dump analysis always seemed to indicate something J >> >related to memory channel operations, but nothing solid.  The hardware >wasL >> >replaced, still problems.  It got to the point that management was ready >tooF >> >throw Compaq out and find another hardware vendor.  Finally Compaq	 >admittednL >> >that there were other customers with similar configurations have similarL >> >problems.  They purchased and installed a memory channel hub and we have >not! >> >had a crash since last March.0 >> >M >> >Although I have not checked, I would expect that "hubless" configurations M >> >are no longer on the supported configuration list (at least for OpenVMS).i >> > >> >Regards, >> >Tome >>L >> I am running a hubless memory channel configuration with two 2100s. Never >had >> any problems. >>
 >> David Webbl >> VMS and Unix team leadero >> CCSS  >> Middlesex University  >> >> >> >r >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:06:20 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: memory channel 8 Message-ID: <ngaeqtcu6ctontcc5t2hnuljolnhoqa5lr@4ax.com>  / On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:59:26 +0100, Steve Reecea& <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> wrote:  C >Since the systems were installed it is safe to say that the memory2E >channel configuration has not given one day of trouble.  It has beeno >very reliable.7  E One presumes that the problems only show under certain conditions buteF it s true to say Compaq are aware there is a problem. Glad you escaped
 it though.   >eH >Memory channel has an inherent problem at the present time in which oneH >side goes to sleep at high load.  My understanding is that this problemE >will not be fixed as gigabit ethernet should provide equal or better . >performance with greater distance capability.   Yep. >y) >As ever, YMMV, as may your patch levels.a  D To the best of my knowledge the problem is not known to be addressed> by any available patch kits. Someone correct me if I am wrong.   >i -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:35:30 +01000% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m Subject: Re: memory channel 8 Message-ID: <rhfeqtkbnk5do7ed64kj9537ue9uq7lgnf@4ax.com>  B On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:03:50 GMT, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote:  H >I thought I was told that memory channel is not supported on the 2100s.  F The last printed copy of the SOC (Jan 1999) states that memory channel is supported on the 2100.e   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:04:18 -0600 ( From: emanuel stiebler <emu@ecubics.com>6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents+ Message-ID: <3BA75462.D1EC8D6C@ecubics.com>e   Hoff Hoffman wrote:- > g > In article <10tpptcssoume71id4h217hfvohj501lnr@4ax.com>, Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com> writes:j > ..1 > :What's critically missing at this juncture is:t > : @ > :- KA650/KA655 boot rom code, binary dump or preferably source > F >   FWIW, I've the Mayfair code, it is VMB and some bootstrap drivers.G >   (Copies of the Seahorse, Mayflower, and Mayfair ROM contents -- theUF >   source code for the ROMs for the KA610 (KD32), KA630, and KA650 --J >   all exist in the OpenVMS VAX source code control library here in ZKO.)  & But not everybody has access to it :-(   + > :- RQDX3 (MSCP) programming specifications > K >   Donno if that ever got released.  There was only a very limited releasewH >   and very limited availability of the MSCP specifications (before theH >   materials were withdrawn), and copies of the MSCP specifications are, >   rather hard to find outside the company.   That's right !   cheers   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 00:35:14 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents- Message-ID: <87heu0xxrx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  + > :- RQDX3 (MSCP) programming specificationh  cC >   Donno if that ever got released.  There was only a very limitedtD >   release and very limited availability of the MSCP specificationsA >   (before the materials were withdrawn), and copies of the MSCPw? >   specifications are rather hard to find outside the company.e  A I think only the UDA-50 port was released. I had the doc kit fromo@ when it was available, and there was no RQDX info in it. I doubtC it would have been released later after the withdrawing of the MSCPc info.s   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 06:36:10 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) T Subject: Re: Need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I need help!!!= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0109180536.2db0aa9d@posting.google.com>s  i scada@cyberunlimited.org (Jeff) wrote in message news:<39ac55d0.0109121318.8cd7d8c@posting.google.com>...NO > I need a printer for my Alpha Workstation running VMS 7.1. I don't know if it N > has to support POSTSCRIPT, SIXEL and DDIF. If it just has to be a POSTSCRIPTM > Printer, what Level of POSTSCRIPT do I need; 1, 2 or 3. I know that it williP > have to support simple ASCII Control Codes because I have Text Files that needP > to be printed. If anyone knows of a Printer that will support all of my needs,  > Interesting question. I've _just now_ gone and bought myself a8 Kyocera FS-1000+ laser printer for my AlphaPC164 at home (OpenVMS 7.3/DCPS 2.0)  n2 To use DECprint Supervisor (DCPS) you will need to; use a serial connection to your printer (unless you have a s> network "print server" type box that provides a bi-directional< parallel port. Your printer will also need a bi-directional ? parallel port in this case). In any case your printer will needs to support postscript.  : For me the Kyocera is a good choice since it is a low cost9 printer with low toner cost (simple/cheap toner box only m@ replacement). It also claims to do Line Printer, IBM Proprinter,? Diabo 630, Epson LQ-850 and PCL-6 for those interested, or with 9 other boxes that talk one of more of those. There is nicet. documentation located on the provided CDROM in< CD_DEV:[DOCUMENT.PROGMAN]INTRO.PDF that explains these modes8 in full as well as it's Prescribe 2e control language.    : A bit of a pain is that you cannot do the initial settings0 using the panel on the printer. SET HOST/DTE and< !R! FRPO P1, 9; EXIT; to kick the NVRAM into postscript mode? and !R! FRPO H1, 57; EXIT; to kick it up to 57600 baud (maximumh? available on the PC164 - acceptable for most work - printer cane> do 115200). Once in PS mode you can still change settings with< !R! <enter> at the prompt obtained by entering the customary "executive" postscript command.o  o? Assuming an Alpha system with a PC style 9 pin serial port, thes< cable is the usual 10 minute job with the soldering iron....  ( 9 Pin F                         25 Pin M$    1       Carrier Detect         20#    2       Receive Data           2 #    3       Transmit Data          3-&    4       Data Term. Ready       6, 8#    5       Ground                 7l$    6       Data Set Ready         20#    7       Request To Send        5D#    8       Clear To Send          4h%    9       Ring                  (NC)a  < I've only just installed this now, however DCPS seems happy,? displays the FS-1000+ model on the flag page and complex prints   from Mozilla come out correctly.  @ As this is my first couple of hours of ownership so I'm not sure. if there will be any pitfalls. So far so good.  	 Cost was:d  G FS-1000+PS FS-1000+PS Kyo. Printer inc PostScript AUST$996.60 (Inc GST)iG IB-10E     Serial Interface Card                  AUST$ 70.40 (Inc GST)e  @ For U.S residents divide AUST$ by half then subtract some amount= simply because your computer H/W costs less than in Australia.E (However, for some reason I think our Big Macs + fries cost less than  in US).   A As many here might know - I (kind of) go out of my way to use non C supported hardware - not everyone is comfortable doing this - YMMV.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:35:43 +0200 , From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de>, Subject: Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ?) Message-ID: <3BA7075F.4090207@iaf.fhg.de>u   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  9 > AFAIK, I once read an COMPAQ 'official' statement about  > @ > 	"NETSCAPE V6 will - when finished - be available for OpenVMS" > F > because of the efforts of the MOZILLA/Seamonkey for OpenVMS project. > F > Now, NETSCAPE V6.1 (Note: I don't count NETSCAPE V6.0 as a browser -E > I call it bullshit) is out for some platforms, but not for OpenVMS.e! > What now ? Am I too impatient ?     J I started with version M10 and did my first bug report on Wed, 27 Oct 1999E The schedule was to optimistic but nervertheless there is a progress.uQ I'm using M0.9.4 today and compared to M0.9.3 the opening of folders and of news pJ groups is faster but still the "Unread counter" has to learn how to count.   > E > Or is the fact, that MOZILLA 0.9.3 mostly doesn't run at all on allrG > my test systems (ok, I did a upgrade from 0.9.2 which ran way better;rG > and I still need to do a fresh install of 0.9.3 and see if that makestE > a difference) and the fact, that MOZILLA still doesn't support JAVAoG > on OpenVMS the great block on the road to NETSCAPE V6.x for OpenVMS ?4    + Did you report your problems into Bugzilla?.G Don't forget this is Opensource software which is based on your help!!!x     Regards, -- c  ; ***********************************************************x; *                                                         *m; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *E; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *-; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *1; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       * ; *  Germany                                                * ; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           * ; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           * ; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       * ; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  * ; *                                                         * ; ***********************************************************    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 05:59:06 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1, Subject: Re: NETSCAPE 6(.1)NEXT on OpenVMS ?3 Message-ID: <BZnGS3lYAo3R@eisner.encompasserve.org>H  X In article <3BA7075F.4090207@iaf.fhg.de>, Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de> writes:  - > Did you report your problems into Bugzilla? I > Don't forget this is Opensource software which is based on your help!!!   = I thought the original request was for a _supported_ browser,N3 not one built through contributions of the victims.-   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 08:11:15 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)04 Subject: Re: On Board Adaptec Controller boot VMS7.3< Message-ID: <55f85d77.0109180711.ed93d34@posting.google.com>  g "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message news:<tqa4t7rf4gar4a@news.supernews.com>...u% > I was trying to figure this one out  > K > Was messing around with a VMS7.3 S ALpha DS20e on Friday, and thought for4J > the hell of it I would take out the KZPCA Ultra2 Controller and plug the9 > disks into the onboard Ultra1 Adaptec (7895) controller  >  > Lo and behold it booted??? >   , Old news. I've already ranted on this topic.  3 The current challenge is to write a boot loader for 6 the AIC-7892 that may be loaded from a floppy and will4 run on the AlphaPC164. Extra points if you can stuff it into the the SRM NVRAM.  1 Initial thought is (now that I have an AARM) that 3 you could intercept the SRM HWRPB console callbacks-3 with a bit of code that could read from the Adaptec-2 controllers. Due to the decayed state of my brain / (and other tasks I've promised to complete) I'm 4 still dealing with the level fields in Alpha virtual4 addresses and waiting on (hard to get) documentation
 from Adaptec.   + http://www.adaptec.com/linux is not exactlyF/ as opensource as it thinks it is. The staff are ! however very prompt and helpfull.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:15:34 +0200 - From: Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> ( Subject: Re: OpenGL 1.2 on OpenVMS/Alpha3 Message-ID: <3BA710B6.70FD968D@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>    Petros Dafniotis wrote:  > G > I see that I only have GL 1.1 on my alpha XP1000. I am running v7.2-1 H > and I am certain that I have installed all patches (Graphics v4.00 forA > example).. I would like to use OpenGL 1.2 from Fortran 9X and C J > environments. What choices do I have there? Do I need to get/install theF > Mesa3D package from the FREEWARE50? Do I need to install the OpenVMS, > v7.3? BTW, is the latter better in OpenGL?G Only that support OpenGL1.1 for two powerstorm cards is now included in-3 the Base OS. For other cards you still need Open3D. D If you need OpenGL1.2 (or 1.3) you'll need Mesa. The latest releasesB (and how to access the development version by CVS) can be found at http://mesa3d.sourceforge.net/G This site contains newer versions than the freeware CD. They all should . compile out of the box (at least on my system)                    Jouk    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:44:07 -040095 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Re: OpenGL 1.2 on OpenVMS/Alpha1 Message-ID: <JkHp7.306$YP.10429@news.cpqcorp.net>E  H Like he says.  OpenGL 1.1 is what is shipping with the P300/350.  MesaGLJ will work, but no HW accel.  The next 3D card (due next year) will contain
 OpenGL 1.2      G Jouk Jansen wrote in message <3BA710B6.70FD968D@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>...a >Petros Dafniotis wrote: >>H >> I see that I only have GL 1.1 on my alpha XP1000. I am running v7.2-1I >> and I am certain that I have installed all patches (Graphics v4.00 for B >> example).. I would like to use OpenGL 1.2 from Fortran 9X and CK >> environments. What choices do I have there? Do I need to get/install the-G >> Mesa3D package from the FREEWARE50? Do I need to install the OpenVMS - >> v7.3? BTW, is the latter better in OpenGL? H >Only that support OpenGL1.1 for two powerstorm cards is now included in4 >the Base OS. For other cards you still need Open3D.E >If you need OpenGL1.2 (or 1.3) you'll need Mesa. The latest releasesFC >(and how to access the development version by CVS) can be found atF >http://mesa3d.sourceforge.net/ H >This site contains newer versions than the freeware CD. They all should/ >compile out of the box (at least on my system)  >0 >                 Jouk   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:09:50 +0530F$ From: "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> Subject: Re: OT : XWD on VMS1 Message-ID: <7_Bp7.293$YP.10435@news.cpqcorp.net>C  E I am sorry. there we two xwd files. One with .c and another with .exe + extension. So i got the problem. Thank you.8 I changed the command to   mcr xwd.exe -root   
 It works now.P  
 With regards, 	 Upadhyayam   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:49:37 -0400A5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> 8 Subject: OT: Additional perspective on the "911 attacks"2 Message-ID: <SEKnOxwHrgOCekVshjeOUv7ZSnR8@4ax.com>  <     For additional perspective on the "911 attacks", defense. issues and technology, and some Q&A, I suggest8 going to http://www.objectiveamerican.com/ and reviewing9 all of the articles produced by Mr. Ross since Wednesday,  09/12/2001.    David R. Beattyi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:36:48 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <4h8eqtgbkbs2bvjgt3psaae7sd3gutoqrv@4ax.com>  = On 17 Sep 2001 14:58:08 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordane Henderson) wrote:    >sO >We have that right as long as they insist on contributing funds to terrorists  O >and insist on creating weapons of mass destruction.  It's called self defense.e  A The US has contributed funds to terrorists such as Saddam and Bin 2 Laden. The US creates weapons of mass destruction.    G >I can only imagine the outrage, focussed on the US specifically, if weh: >were to undertake unilateral measures to do these things.  B I'm  not sure you will need to imagine it as I think that is where Bush is heading step by step.r   >s >T >"not much funding at all"?  >oM >Let's see, Bin Laden had an inheritence of $300 Million.  Saddam contributes>O >tens of millions.  Kudafy contributes millions.  Then, there are contributionsrL >coming from all over the Arab world, including sizeable contributions from B >many sympathizers in the Gulf States with considerable resources.  > If we are going to talk numbers could you also post the amount9 contributed by the US to Bin Laden prior to the Gulf War?>  H >I'm not opposed to a thorough review of our foreign policy, but it mustG >be done extremely discreetly with no obvious submission to the currentgE >terrorist demands if we are to avoid future terrorism.  Lifting the 2  A Agreed. You never "give in" to terrorists but you must review any D points they make that have widespread support among people who would( not support terrorist action themselves.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:44:21 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <lv8eqt46coas3i2sjpi3pvn54mbnlogu4d@4ax.com>  = On 17 Sep 2001 17:52:19 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordanr Henderson) wrote:t     >n8 >Sure.  I'm against it and I think it should be illegal. >nH >Of course, there's a practical element to the appropriate response, no?H >It's not like economic sanctions by the UK could possibly deprive thoseF >US citizens of their ability to supporting the IRA, is it?  It would D >more likely be more damaging to the UK economy to attempt to impose >sanctions on the US.e  E And there is the US double standards. If the rest of the world thinks C the US is in the wrong it can do nothing about it. Until eventuallyg@ you have created so much hatred of the US that the WTC occurred.@ Saddam/Bin Laden could not have carried this out without a largeC number of followers who completely and utterly hate you.  AmericanshE know the least about the outside world of any other western nation onpC earth.  You cause much hatred through ignorance rather than malice.h  F That's why so many Islamic protestors around the world carried bannersE saying "America. Please think why so many people hate you." The statecF of Israel acts in many ways like Nazi Germany as far as most Europeans3 are concerned never mind how the Palestinians feel.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:51:19 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <5g9eqtc5n3mi4cv949ggoi9fsefr496fbe@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:07:57 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  wrote:  H >Gee, I was sort of under the impression that there wasn't all that muchH >standing in the way of completing that development anyway, now that theJ >inspectors have been gone for years.  Isn't *that* more what we should be& >worrying about in this specific area?  E And some accounts say that Iraq had a nuclear bomb and even tested itvE *before* the Gulf War. Iraq executed a British journalist claiming helD was a spy for MI6. Credible evidence has been presented by some news= agencies that he was arrested in the immediate vicinity of an D underground nuclear test. A 'seismic event' was recorded that day in  that location deep under a lake.   >  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:11:51 +0000c  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACB.00487FBC.00@quegw01.btyp>s  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P As far as I am aware, it IS illegal now in the US for any of the Irish groups toM fund-raise, and has been for at least a couple of years. Perhaps someone over  there could confirm this?   N The other thing I would say is that a lot of this fundraising took the form ofJ 'Please donate some cash to help the Irish orphans caused by the terroristN activities in Ireland' or similar, with no overt mention of who the terroristsM might be, or where exactly the money might end up. Perhaps this is related to J other threads describing the sometime lack of knowledge of other countriesL issues among the 'rank and file' Americans, but you would have to ask one of those who gave money to know.W  P Of course, some of those who DID give money, knew full well for whom and what it
 was intended.b  N Having said that, plenty of fundraising [for both sides of the Irish conflict]L goes on in the UK itself. Ever been in a pub in Glasgow? Not all of them, of	 course...r   Steve S7        C jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson) on 09/17/2001 09:52:19 PMc    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)8M From:      jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordan Henderson), 17 September 2001, 9:52u            p.m.d   Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterP        / In article <3BA66B7B.E063DE9A@cableinet.co.uk>,I5 Tim Llewellyn  <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:  >3 >  >Jordan Henderson wrote: >> >p >>P >> We have that right as long as they insist on contributing funds to terroristsH >> and insist on creating weapons of mass destruction.  It's called self defense. >> >eG >ahem, you are aware that the IRA has been funded by US citizens in them >past, >yes?  >e  7 Sure.  I'm against it and I think it should be illegal.C  G Of course, there's a practical element to the appropriate response, no?aG It's not like economic sanctions by the UK could possibly deprive thoseaD US citizens of their ability to supporting the IRA, is it?  It wouldC more likely be more damaging to the UK economy to attempt to imposes sanctions on the US.     >--i >Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk >oC >Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those ofc" >my employers or service provider.   -Jordan Henderson, jordan@greenapple.com5   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 07:52:14 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <qo8kpF2ob9lK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <9o6g8u$eqk$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > L > Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feel theyL > have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any whoN > actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killing all ofM > them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it.   C    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern andeD    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in    South America.e  E    When we get done nuking all these places, that leaves China as ther    leading world power.   E    I for one am against the US nuking itself and all it's good allies26    for revenge against even a couple million bigots.    C    As even George W. Bush understands, this is not the kind of war n    we've seen in the past.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 07:53:55 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <QQkFDHvIjHWy@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  R In article <00256ACB.00487FBC.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes: > R > As far as I am aware, it IS illegal now in the US for any of the Irish groups toO > fund-raise, and has been for at least a couple of years. Perhaps someone over. > there could confirm this?9  F    It has been illegal for US citizens to contribute to the IRA for at    least a couple decades.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:21:59 -0400u* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>( Subject: RE: OT:: Re: World Trade Center- Message-ID: <0033000035557698000002L082*@MHS>m  2 =0AThat's not a good thing to post in a newsgroup. Especially *these* days.   See 18 USC 871.s  / The odds are fairly good that you'll be getting-0 a visit from some rather humor-impaired folk who wear sunglasses and earphones.  ( Tell them that comp.os.vms said 'hello'.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET:, > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:00 PMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* > Subject: RE: OT:: Re: World Trade Center >o >h> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3BA6B104.62EA1D2B@fsi.net...  >a > ...r > > > > Indeed. Perhaps it's time for all of us to shut up and let
 > God Be God,n> > > rather than expecting Him to live up (or down, as the case > may be) to > > our expectations.  >9? > Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seemg > to feel they; > have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminatea > terror.  Any who? > actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takesn > killing all of= > them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our  > own - so be it.o >I > - bill >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:06:12 -0400l' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>f( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o7k9q$4h7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  7 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messagei' news:0033000035557698000002L082*@MHS....  / That's not a good thing to post in a newsgroup.  Especially *these* days.   See 18 USC 871.   / The odds are fairly good that you'll be getting*0 a visit from some rather humor-impaired folk who wear sunglasses and earphones.    F There's a difference between a statement of belief and a threat.  It's called the First Amendment.s   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:48:21 GMTe. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <nkneqt0tenud4u710j6240lc01s6b0dpqb@4ax.com>  F On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:22:40 GMT, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote:  I >We put most of these scumbags into business, bin Laden included.  Now wew  >have to correct those mistakes.    3 Start by correcting the "scumbags" in the US first.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:34:27 +0100*% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <g5leqtk5jumfiuphdq4dqu8reb930atgr7@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:11:51 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:r  M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazai >f >dQ >As far as I am aware, it IS illegal now in the US for any of the Irish groups tosN >fund-raise, and has been for at least a couple of years. Perhaps someone over >there could confirm this?  A [Steve: this response as much for anyone else. I know you will be- familiar with what follows]   F It is illegal to contribute to *some* specified  Republican groups butE not others, The question is there a distinction between Sinn Fein and A the IRA? Answer : a very blurry one but we have to work with it. r  ; www.noraid.com still exists. Apparently among other things:a  F " The right to of one to Own  Property, Protect oneself (Right to bearA Arms), Freedom of Religion and  Speech.  Americans who believe in E these principles support Noraid and wish people everywhere these same E freedoms. The British Government has by force taken these Rights from C the Irish people.  A large portion of  Irish are still living undern> the British heel of oppression in Northern Ireland, thus their struggle for freedom."  E So we took away the God given right to bear arms apparently.  Strange C as the IRA is the most heavily armed private organisation in the UKoC and its refusal to even start to give them up is currently the mainlE stumbling block. I also must have missed us taking away rights to owntB property, freedom of religion and speech. Although Thatcher in herF nutcase years did try to ban certain things resulting in an episode ofD Star Trek TNG and Larry King Live that could not be broadcast in theF UK. A shameful act by a woman gone dotty and long since overturned but4 one that gave an enormous publicity coup to the IRA.  C Don't get me wrong. British policy did not help for a long time bute= there never was the black and white (actually green and blue)f? situation that idiots like NORAID and their supporters believe.A  C The IRA was the organization that murdered one of the twin brothers C who founded and edited the Guinness Book of Records so I guess they  are not interested in facts,    O >The other thing I would say is that a lot of this fundraising took the form of K >'Please donate some cash to help the Irish orphans caused by the terroristIO >activities in Ireland' or similar, with no overt mention of who the terroristsaN >might be, or where exactly the money might end up. Perhaps this is related toK >other threads describing the sometime lack of knowledge of other countriesrM >issues among the 'rank and file' Americans, but you would have to ask one of. >those who gave money to know.  D Yes, I'm sure the majority was raised by people who had no idea whatD the money was actually used for. Did they really believe the UK leftB orphans on the streets pennyless though. Answer yes unfortunately.  Q >Of course, some of those who DID give money, knew full well for whom and what it1 >was intended. >rO >Having said that, plenty of fundraising [for both sides of the Irish conflict]OM >goes on in the UK itself. Ever been in a pub in Glasgow? Not all of them, ofs
 >course...  D Glasgow is almost politically part of Northern Ireland than ScotlandB in some ways. Rangers/Celtic football teams do not exactly promote cross-cultural harmony.m   >e >Steve S >F -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:26:08 +0100v% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <4lpeqtso6botc65dgsgo83e28ibviuvdsa@4ax.com>  7 On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:27:16 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"v <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >r >DA >Does Pakistan have ballistic missile submarines? We have them...?  D Pakistan remains a Commonwealth country. We really don't want to getD to the stage of it asking for help from Britain against a US attack. This is just getting silly now.   eI >The world had hoped that Japan would have been the example for all time. G >That impression was blown to hell last Wednesday. I put it to you thaty  A Terrible as it was last Tuesday bore little relation to a nuclearcF attack. If you think it did I hope America does not have to experience the difference on her own soil.t  ? >it's time for a reminder - with perhaps a bit of relish so the ; >impression will last longer than 55 or so years this time.u  1 I leave the above two lines to stand against you.g  / >So prophecy says. Let it be as the Lord wills.m  B I leave the above line as well to stand without comment as none is needed.S   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:38:39 +0100w3 From: Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com>- Subject: Re-direction of output,3 Message-ID: <3BA75C6E.68808D31@unnecessary.csc.com>i   All,  D I have a problem reported whereby a command procedure submitted to aG batch queue running Mantis fails with an access violation - reason maskd@ 04. The very same command procedure run interactively 'with your fingers' runs correctly.  F I have, however, found that a simple SHOW LOG command entered into theF command procedure immediately prior to invoking the Mantis application. causes the batch job to complete successfully.  G Can anyone point me to whichever logical name (or whatever) needs to ben
 addressed.   VMS 6.2  Mantis 2.7 (I think)  ) The batch procedure states the following:o SYS$OUTPUT=_DSA205:  SYS$ERROR=_DSA205:	 TT=_NLA0:@  8 Please let me know if any other information is required.   Regards,   Ade    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:35:32 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org# Subject: Re: Re-direction of outputh3 Message-ID: <bN7+heoNnmao@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  i In article <3BA75C6E.68808D31@unnecessary.csc.com>, Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com> writes: F > I have a problem reported whereby a command procedure submitted to aI > batch queue running Mantis fails with an access violation - reason masktB > 04. The very same command procedure run interactively 'with your > fingers' runs correctly. > H > I have, however, found that a simple SHOW LOG command entered into theH > command procedure immediately prior to invoking the Mantis application0 > causes the batch job to complete successfully. > D One thing that SHOW LOG will do is to deassign any user mode logicalD names in your process logical name tables.  That is because SHOW LOGF is not a built-in DCL command but requires an image activation.  Image0 rundown will then clear out the user mode names.  C You might consider doing $ SHOW LOGICAL /FULL.  That would tell younC the access mode of all the logical names in your table (before they  go away at image rundown).  E You might also consider $ DEASSIGN /PROCESS /USER /ALL as a differente workaround.s  F Congratulations, by the way.  Few sites have SYLOGIN.COM and LOGIN.COMG that are streamlined enough so that no images are activated.  I suspect-D that this is a necessary condition for the behavior that you report.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:11:02 +0100i3 From: Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com>0# Subject: Re: Re-direction of output 3 Message-ID: <3BA77216.A2649855@unnecessary.csc.com>d  + The results of show log/full/all are below:    $ sho log /full/all sys$outputA    "SYS$OUTPUT" [super,confine] = "_DSA205:" [concealed,terminal]e (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)p $ sho log /full/all sys$erroriA    "SYS$ERROR" [exec] = "_DSA205:" [terminal] (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  $ sho log /full/all tt-    "TT" [exec] = "_NLA0:" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)      Aden   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:39:46 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org# Subject: Re: Re-direction of output 3 Message-ID: <KPmVmVHO3RoG@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  i In article <3BA77216.A2649855@unnecessary.csc.com>, Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com> writes:e- > The results of show log/full/all are below:l >   > $ sho log /full/all sys$outputC >    "SYS$OUTPUT" [super,confine] = "_DSA205:" [concealed,terminal]c > (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  > $ sho log /full/all sys$erroreC >    "SYS$ERROR" [exec] = "_DSA205:" [terminal] (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  > $ sho log /full/all tt  G In case you missed the post to which you just responded, $ SHOW LOGICALtE runs an image.  At image rundown, all user mode logical names in yourlB process table (and process directory) are deleted.  Using a series< of $ SHOW LOGICAL commands will, accordingly, never show you? user mode logical names in anything but the first such command.o  9 What does $ SHOW LOGICAL /FULL show?  Without parameters.    	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:05:38 +0100 3 From: Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com>o# Subject: Re: Re-direction of output 3 Message-ID: <3BA77EE2.AC31DB27@unnecessary.csc.com>t   John,o  2 Sorry, two halves of brain on different planets !!  D It shows that there are no user mode logicals defined but plenty for@ process and job etc. The values for SYS$OUTPUT etc are as statedC previously are seemingly taken from the process table (as you wouldeG expect). There is also a MANTIS_OUTPUT logical defined in the JOB tablef which is set to SYS$OUTPUT.t   Thanks,c   Ade    ------------------------------   Date: 18 Sep 2001 12:35:08 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) & Subject: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?' Message-ID: <9o7f1s$lnc$1@joe.rice.edu>: Keywords: suse,linux,alpha  )   http://www.theinquirer.net/18090105.htm0$   Linux on Alpha heads for the gulag   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:06:19 +0200e& From: "B.Eckstein" <B.Eckstein@cli.de>* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?% Message-ID: <3BA770FB.7000602@cli.de>a   Jerry Leslie wrote:   + >   http://www.theinquirer.net/18090105.htm & >   Linux on Alpha heads for the gulag  9 Stefan doesn't say "no more Alpha support". The conditionp5 is the flow of information about system-architecture.   , This looks ok for me. I can understand this.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:58:02 GMTr. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>I Subject: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )e8 Message-ID: <39reqtg29v53s2a6t3cv52bad9se56ftfi@4ax.com>  A On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>u wrote:D >same here...  we really need to go in with foot infantry or really,5 >really smart weapons, and take the terrorists out.  o  8 No, the US need to sit down and talk to other countries.D Perhaps then they will begin to understand why they are now the most hated country in the world.   E Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations in the world, around D 7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )C are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members disliked+ the US, there is something seriously wrong.E  # Terroism is a hydra headed monster.y! Cut off one head and 9 more grow.w; Remember when the Munich Olympics massacre was a big deal ?a< Remember the days when Abu Nidal was the big bad terrorist ?9 Terrorists seem to become worse by orders of magnitude...u   Read t http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm for a few free clues.e  F It has the Chomsky and the Fisk articles on line as well as some other excellent pieces.t   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 08:21:55 -0700/ From: on_the_move4ever@yahoo.com (Rick Nickles)s( Subject: Re: VAX 7000's End of Life Date= Message-ID: <b2faac46.0109180721.2110f34c@posting.google.com>p  E What has prompted this discussion is that I recently received noticeseE from Compaq saying that the 4705's were going to be End of Life (i.e.e@ no longer supported) as of July 31, 2002.  When we received thisC notice this drew a great deal of concern because we are running ourJC entire production operation off of a 2 node VAX 7730 cluster and we-F have THOUSANDS of custom written applications for our processes here. F Even though Compaq feels like a year is enough time, to try to migrateE to ANY platform (including Alpha) is still a massive effort involvingr> the work of a LOT of people, and it isn't an easy one at that.  F Since I received the notice, I've contacted about everyone I can thinkD of in the Compaq organization, and I have yet to hear from anyone toF can really help me.  Most everybody says that they don't know and they> leave it at that.  I finally contacted Howard Elias (SR. VP of= Business Critical Systems) and I'm thinking he'll contact thed  appropriate people on my behalf.  < There's still lots of room for concern at the current time.    THANKS   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 09:19:30 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) > Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0109180819.1f16c257@posting.google.com>   g vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) wrote in message news:<9neivk$qs3@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...-C >  When I bought up the problems with VMS moving to a processor not Q > able to do VAX-floats (F, D, G, H) people seemed to not have a problem with it. P > I heard that people wouldn't mind converting all their data files.  (Of courseM > then they couldn't be shared in a cluster with VAX and Alpha machines to beaL > used with programs there... unless all Alpha programs were compiled to use
 > IEEE).    C In the CETS2001 session on "Porting OpenVMS Applications to Itanium + Processor Family" there was a slide saying:U   "So, what's different?   * Floating-point data typesu5   - Itanium processor family supports IEEE float only D   - All compilers should be able to deal with F, D, G, S, T and X (S and T are native IEEE formats)%   - Document forthcoming with details3   - Tell us what you need"  ? So it appears programs (and files) which use VAX floating-pointsD formats will be supported on Itanium.  Presumably there will be someD level of adverse performance impact, but things should at least work without converting to IEEE.lC -------------------------------------------------------------------sC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on: C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/ON   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:21:58 -0500e+ From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu>o> Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109181217160.17428-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  # On 18 Sep 2001, Keith Parris wrote:t  E > In the CETS2001 session on "Porting OpenVMS Applications to Itanium - > Processor Family" there was a slide saying:a >  > "So, what's different? >  > * Floating-point data typesr7 >   - Itanium processor family supports IEEE float onlyrF >   - All compilers should be able to deal with F, D, G, S, T and X (S  > and T are native IEEE formats)' >   - Document forthcoming with detailss >   - Tell us what you need" > A > So it appears programs (and files) which use VAX floating-pointeF > formats will be supported on Itanium.  Presumably there will be someF > level of adverse performance impact, but things should at least work > without converting to IEEE.e  @ Is H_float an omission, or equivalent to S, T, or X?  Does "dealJ with" mean preserve precision, or "we know best how to round you into IEEE format, trust us" ?C   --  < I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.n   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:35:06 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>- Subject: Re: World Trade Center1H Message-ID: <y4adzsx5fp.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ( ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk> writes:  M > You're doing a fine job here Bill, far more eloquently than I could or have2# > time for. Keep up the good work. dM > The forces of darkness are always ready and waiting where men of good will l > fail to speak out and act. t   Whole-heartedly seconded.y   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:44:31 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>g Subject: Re: World Trade CenteroH Message-ID: <y47kuwx500.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:l  J > I would be curious to know what options you would see as "reasonable" in > the face of such a challenge.A  H Consider that terrorists, by motivation, structure and support, are veryH similar to Guerilla (or partisan, to use an older word) groups. MilitaryJ force against partisans and Guerillas as well as their supporters has beenK shown to be inffective for close to a century now (at least); force againstaM their supporters can be seen to be particularly ineffective and even counter-sJ productive. The only approach that has a chance is to remove that support.L This type of long-range thinking is exemplified in the Marshall plan, which F likely is an accident of US history - but I must say I'm very glad and  grateful that accident happened.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:54:13 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenteraH Message-ID: <y44rq0x4ju.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:n  E > 	And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Donald aD > 	Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"7 > 	pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ of I > 	our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from Californial > 	on the other side.h  L The lady from California is to be commended, because she is in the same boatM as all the others: they want/need re-election in a little over one, three, ortL five years time. Especially the first two categories talk as much to prop upM what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as their future voters' perception asd% they do to state their own opinions. t  N All in all, I do think public statements by those in power and command both inM the US and in Europe - and that includes the CEO of USA Inc. - have been muchtL more measured and thought-through than we had any expectation of before thisF event. Not that wrong tones and words have been used...but the overallK impression is quite positive. Let's hope they can stand up to pressure fromtA all sides and stay with their current stance in the coming weeks.i   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:02:10 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e Subject: Re: World Trade CentergH Message-ID: <y41yl4x46l.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:d  A > Then, I would need to ask again: what is an effective method ofb > deterrence of terrorism?  H There just isn't. It was a little better in the late middle ages (in theI farmers' wars in Germany, for instance), but even then it required a long L and determined battle by those in power to suppress (what they perceived as)I terrorism. With the increased vulnerability of our technical civilization K on the one hand and the increased resources available to everyday people onf  the other, there isn't a chance.  K The only effective methods are to remove their support groups, and to avoid < situations which allow extant groups to gather new recruits.  M > What could *ANY* country do to send the message that terrorism will result mL > in such terrible retribution that any who dare commit such acts will doom E > to utter destruction the very people they seek to serve or avenge?    M Terrorists are idealists and egocentric. They are not susceptible to any such N "messages", because such a message would appeal to their rational minds, whichM they have decoupled from their decision-making processes. The only way to get B rid of them is to avoid them coming into being in the first place.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:47:04 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <2v1eqt0icd3qfec5q9s73ik6jrt0v9r4iv@4ax.com>  = On 17 Sep 2001 11:30:29 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordanw Henderson) wrote:s   >n> >While it is true that military action based in Pakistan could? >be more or less unpopular there, and could even lead to social : >and political upheaval, it's unlikely that a Taliban-like* >regime could come into power in Pakistan. >i@ >Pakistan is perhaps the most westernized of all countries whereE >Islam is the dominant religion.  Religious extreme political partiesaD >typically poll <%3.  Pakistan is the first and only country ever toC >elect a woman as head of state, which is quite a stark contrast tod3 >the Taliban where women have no rights whatsoever.   ? You almost seem to be forgetting that Pakistan's democraticallyeF elected government was overthrown in a military coup a couple of yearsB ago. The elected president is currently in jail. The former femaleA head of state you refer to is now in exile in London and would beu arrested and jailed on return.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:36:11 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade CenterO8 Message-ID: <oj0eqt8uj5huvkdm1ml8u9fpt7ans3mmdf@4ax.com>  D On 17 Sep 2001 23:22:30 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    E >	Talking and educating?  Not happening.  OBL wants to kill Americans D >	plain and simple because we set foot on Muslim soil basically.  WeC >	don't occupy Muslim countries, we interact with them.  He doesn'tD  A That would carry far more weight if any of the middle-east MuslimrB countries we "interact" and "transact business" with were actuallyB democratic. If you can point me at the Gallup poll of Saudis whichE supports their government's policies I shall be happy to examine it.,m  > Reading the posts from MD-90  on www.,aiirliners.net (which doD actually look as if they may have been  the terrorists themselves) I= was reminded that the Sultan of Brunei has an entire fleet of E passenger airliners as private possessions. Nice if you can get it. ItD would also assume from that thread that the Sultan may be a target.. .iA >	accuse us of much more than transacting business... and here isS >	his edict: >nM >"We with Gods help call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to bepK >rewarded to comply with Gods order to kill the Americans and plunder theirt+ >money wherever and whenever they find it."e  E If he actually did order the WTC attack then why does someone who hasWC shown no fear of speaking his mind (however warped) deny it totally @ and utterly adding "the real culprit organized this for personalC reasons. I had nothing to do with it.." To me that suggests Saddam.c   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:06:44 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>N Subject: Re: World Trade Centern8 Message-ID: <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:07:13 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i wrote:    M >I'm still waiting to see whether it turns out that we shot down the plane inyJ >Pennsylvania, as Alan suggested there's some evidence we may have.  I sawK >one post on a message board about Army helicopter activity in the vicinitymM >of the plane at the time, but there was so much incorrect information flyings; >around that I'm not sure how much credence to place in it.   F I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenF at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not statedF that it actually happened. The plane crashed at 10:10am. AF-1 took offE at 9:50am. The FBI were asked  by journalists if they were ruling outTE a shoot-down. The response: "No". Some UK agencies have reported that > the task of this airliner was believed to be to land on top ofC Airforce One at Edwards Air  Base if possible. That's why it was sooA much later than the others, Wait until the president returns to aB" known spot at a known time then...  B The UK Sunday Times supported the shoot down scenario pointing outF phone calls, eyewitness accounts and the fact that "wreckage was foundA in two widely separated areas" The plane was on fire according to/F ground witnesses as it came down. Other possibility would be a bomb on board but that seems unlikely.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:09:05 +0100s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m Subject: Re: World Trade Centers8 Message-ID: <ml3eqt86v1pgll5v8vhg0dtjo451rcf35k@4ax.com>  / On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:33:31 GMT, Tim Llewellyne& <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:   >hG >plausible, but wasn't that the plane where the passengers fought back?   E It's the plane where that theory has been put about yes and, it might C be true, but there are a lot of inconsistencies with that scenario.t     -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:38:38 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CentertH Message-ID: <y4y9ncvnxd.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:v  G > I had the radio portion of my Walkman on most of Tuesday. I thought ITH > heard someone say that Islamic Jihad had taken "credit" for the atack.  : That has been quickly disclaimed by the group in question.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:50:36 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>n Subject: Re: World Trade CentereH Message-ID: <y4pu8ovndf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:-  I > >> The long-range goal (help me if I'm reading into this but I honestlyeM > >> am seeing it pop up everywhere) is to stamp out terrorism as we know it.0G > > That would be delusional. It would be like attempting to stamp out 1L > > infectious diseases. Yeah, we likely managed to stamp out vaccinia (?), 1 > > but that's a rare success among many defeats.fB > 	The incidents of terrorism are very low or non-existent in someF > 	countries.  That probably won't be the case here.  But that doesn't > 	mean it isn't a worthy goal.a  N A low rate of terrorism is achievable. The west has been doing pretty well forF about a decade now, in fact. "Stamp[ing] out terrorism" is delusional.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:42:43 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>r Subject: Re: World Trade CenternH Message-ID: <y4vgigvnqk.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:s  > >     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat all? > foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Don; > you really want to put those countries that oppress theiro: > citizens on an equal footing with those that allow their > citizens more freedom?    N You mean the US hasn't done so in the past? Like support for the Shah of Iran,I for Saddam, for all those middle-east despots, rulers in middle and SoutheJ America, aiding in overthrowing democratically elected governments, and so forth?   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:48:29 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>F Subject: Re: World Trade CenteroH Message-ID: <y4sndkvngy.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:y  J > 	Or course he hasn't.  But members of his organization were responsible.  	 <sarcasm>1M I do hope they carried their al-Qaeda membership card with them at all times,t  particularly during work hours. 
 </sarcasm>  N You are so much better informed than the US government, I wonder why you don't0 have an official position. Or maybe you do have?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:35:02 +0100p% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm8 Message-ID: <o14eqtoa4828170mh449p4i164befgtmdr@4ax.com>  D On 17 Sep 2001 11:10:28 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    A >	give me a break.  The fellows on that flight were known members  >	of his organization.  D Are you suggesting Bin Laden personally knows the 100,000 members ofC the organization he is supposed to have? Does he interview them all D personally? Does Saddam have a completely separate set of terrorists who never associate? y     > = >	So by supporting terror but by not being directly linked oreB >	aware of the actual method they choose that excuses him somehow? >	give me a break.  E That;'s what the CIA used to do with Bin Laden. Give him millions andND tell him to do something with it. It would be so ironic if CIA money+ was ultimately used to fund this operation.    >s > C >	So?  Apparently the long range goal here is to wipe out terrorismg
 >	world-wide..  @ I look forward to the support we receive from America as we fireD Tomahawk cruise missiles at NORAID offices (NORAID - US organizationC which funded the IRA for years not NORAD which is something totallyc? different) NORAID currently describes the British government as D terrorists. Perhaps the US should nuke London then? The situation inD Northern Ireland is complex but the fact the US allowed fund raisersF to finance massive terrorist bombing campaigns (including Canary WharfC - the UK's nearest equivalent to the WTC) just illustrates what the F rest of the world is trying to tell the US. You have a simplistic view? of world affairs. That is not acceptable for the only remainingr1 superpower. Especially if it wishes to go to war.r  H >> Would sir like his next terorist attack to be biological or nuclear ? >eA >	I don't prefer flavors.  But whoever does whatever they do they ? >	will surely understand that we will be hard after them and it 8 >	will no doubt be far worse than anything they do here.  E We've passed "turn the other cheek" and  "eye for an eye", What is ito now. "The head for an eye"?n   >				Rob   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:59:36 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>- Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm8 Message-ID: <6s5eqt8ieog7rbmtu2appktu48vqh8b0ra@4ax.com>  D On 17 Sep 2001 11:29:56 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    A >	Whose humanity?  Tell us the humane thing to do.  Tell us aboutmE >	the humane acts of Sept. 11th.  Inhumane would be more descriptive.e  C Inhumanity does not justify further inhumanity in response. I wouldn@ suggest we reign in Israel, send in UN peace-keeping troops into> Palestine and follow due course of  law to track down the realD organizers of this whom I continue to suspect are in Iraq as much asF Afghanistan. All out war may be required but not without hard facts inC the public domain. Punishing the innocent through incompetence is ae crime.  L >"Enter through the narrow gate.  For wide is the gate and broad is the roadM >that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gate(B >and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."   B So you get to heaven  and I go to hell. That's what you are saying here isn't it?   >iO >The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt withnM >fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.w  < That;'s what you want to happen isn't it? Fed up waiting for3 Armageddon you will finally try and bring it about.l  K >And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first-3 >earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.6 >2 > 5 >> Remind me - Who's "Holy War" are we fighting here?r >i@ >	According to our President and various members of Congress, it> >	is a war against terrorism.  A long campaign or so they say. . C The president used the word "crusade". Is this because he is stupid,F and did not realize the implications or was it intentional? Crusade is the English word for "Jihad".e     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:11:30 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <uo6eqt8luac8i7pv3lqkqnhelp5j33flov@4ax.com>  D On 17 Sep 2001 11:48:41 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:   >e >gF >	There is an airport.  There is electricity.  There are trucks largerA >	than 1 ton in size.  There are bridges.  There are fuel depots.c* >	There is cell phone communications, etc.  D Ah these will be the terrorist only power stations, trucks, bridges,D fuel depots and telephones. Yep, let's bomb them all as we head into winter.      >n@ >	No.  They had plenty of cash and it came from somewhere.  TheyB >	were/are organized.  This is not going to be easy at all I would >	be silly to suggest it is.  C WIth the money to setup the organization supplied by the CIA at onei@ time by multiple accounts (including US political sources). I amC puzzled by the sudden selling  of shares in insurance companies etcaE just before the blast and it will be interesting to see where the FBIa investigation leads.    D >	And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Donald C >	Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"26 >	pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ ofH >	our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from California >	on the other side.  F A natural reaction given the magnitude of the crime committed but evenF Bush said something like "We have the support of the people now but asF this progresses we will have to do things that cause our own people toD question our actions - and I understand that. But we will do what weA have to do and will  see this through". At least he is honest andrE actually almost sounded sincere with the "and  I understand that" butnC he may have been sending a message back to European leaders that heeE understands their concerns while he still wants them on board, He hasa< also added that the US will act on its own if necessary and,D ultimately, I think that will happen but for now Europe can moderate
 the response.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:23:54 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade CenterS8 Message-ID: <qf7eqtsovbu65ug2et3e1gmnl7kiab27mm@4ax.com>  7 On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:36:09 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"a <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >dI >I don't recall the IRA ever flying a commercial airliner into Buckingham I >Palace, running a train at full speed into Waterloo Station or driving aoH >lorry (loaded with explosives?) into Windsor Castle or the cathedral at >Winchester.  E How about blowing up a lorry load of explosives to try and bring downe@ Canary Wharf - our version of the WTC. How about blowing up LordD Mountbatten uncle of Prince Charles? How about setting a car-bomb inC the car-park of the Houses of Parliament. How about blowing up railwC and road bridges. How about killing the Royal Marine musicians. HowuB about blowing up main streets in Northern Ireland when packed withB people. How about exploding a car bomb outside the BBC newsroom inC central London How about drug running. Does all this sound like thep Taliban?  E All funded with money collected from NORAID n the US. Do you have thetF GPS coordinates please of their offices so we can target them? Did you@ notice that several of their representatives have recently  beenD arrested  in Columbia on terrorist and drug charges? Including theirF 'ambassador'  to Cuba (according to the Cuban government). Or does the US news not report such things?h  t -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:04:20 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr( Message-ID: <9o79kr$pfv$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:mZU8LW7D0q3f@eisner.encompasserve.org...r   ...a  C > And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, DonaldsC > Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"g6 > pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ ofH > our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from California > on the other side.  J Wow!  I was really starting to worry that I might have been wrong all thisH time after you pointed that out.  But, fortunately, The Register has now weighed in authoritatively:i  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21715.html  L I guess the explanation may be that, rather than being additive, in a crisisL the intelligence of a group of our fearless leaders may sometimes be limitedC to that of its least-competent members.  Especially if the group islF political and includes the Great Unwashed in its calculations (though,J somewhat surprisingly, in an NBC poll yesterday 81% of said Great UnwashedI stated that we should wait to act until we're certain who was involved intJ the WTC attack, at least suggesting that they think perhaps we should be aH bit reluctant to squash others in our righteous zeal - but of course ourK leadership brain-trust hadn't heard those poll results when the above votesi were taken).  L Really does remind one of the level of Congressional unanimity when the GulfG of Tonkin resolution was passed.  Dubya was kind of distracted by other-E activities during that period and may not remember very well how thatGF eventually played out, but I suspect his dad may be able to give him aK pointer or two - with the objectivity of someone who's not planning another0 run for office.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:39:53 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri8 Message-ID: <sfceqt029dr70gg4kvlm24ff7e0c1lra47@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 11:48:29 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:    O >You are so much better informed than the US government, I wonder why you don'ti1 >have an official position. Or maybe you do have?t  ) Careful. Rob might have to shoot you!  ;)oA A smiley. Who'd have thought it. Almost forgotten what they were,n     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:15:23 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerp2 Message-ID: <ajmnO7O40wvjODsO+7zET0yQwR7Z@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 11:42:43 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: >l? >>     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat all @ >> foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Do< >> you really want to put those countries that oppress their; >> citizens on an equal footing with those that allow theirh >> citizens more freedom?  i >(O >You mean the US hasn't done so in the past? Like support for the Shah of Iran,tJ >for Saddam, for all those middle-east despots, rulers in middle and SouthK >America, aiding in overthrowing democratically elected governments, and so  >forth?6 >  >	Jan   F     I wasn't implying that at all.  In most of the instances you cited  = above, initial support was from an anti-Communist perspectiven? and unfortunately not from a pro-freedom perspective.  I'm also = not saying that U.S. foreign policy has been perfect, either. ; However, U.S. foreign policy mistakes are far outweighed byt wins.s   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:32:52 +0200n< From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center ( Message-ID: <3BA73EF4.42B0DF4B@home.com>   David Beatty wrote: = > However, U.S. foreign policy mistakes are far outweighed byg > wins.9   Wins for who ? The US ?  	 Jan-Erik.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:22:55 +01000% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>I Subject: Re: World Trade Centere8 Message-ID: <6mceqt0kl84hmjob90dvgsfn01lv36fhoe@4ax.com>  0 On 18 Sep 2001 10:54:13 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen <O >All in all, I do think public statements by those in power and command both infN >the US and in Europe - and that includes the CEO of USA Inc. - have been much  F My feeling is that Bush is actually closely aligned to Rob's views butB is clever enough (or well enough advised) to try and be careful inF what he says. I had hoped otherwise but too many indications point theB other way. You can be sure battle simulations of various scenariosD will be running somewhere right now. It would be fascinating to knowF what nuclear options have been simulated or otherwise. Unfortunately IE have not been able to locate a URL with the Macromedia Flash and Javat: animations of these simulations for some strange reason...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:29:58 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Center 2 Message-ID: <Bj6nO4EF40+IGnSlxY=wZyAeg1Tg@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 10:54:13 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  . >young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: >-F >> 	And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Donald E >> 	Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"C8 >> 	pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ ofJ >> 	our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from California >> 	on the other side. >tM >The lady from California is to be commended, because she is in the same boatlN >as all the others: they want/need re-election in a little over one, three, orM >five years time. Especially the first two categories talk as much to prop up8N >what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as their future voters' perception as& >they do to state their own opinions.  >eO >All in all, I do think public statements by those in power and command both in>N >the US and in Europe - and that includes the CEO of USA Inc. - have been muchM >more measured and thought-through than we had any expectation of before thisyG >event. Not that wrong tones and words have been used...but the overalliL >impression is quite positive. Let's hope they can stand up to pressure fromB >all sides and stay with their current stance in the coming weeks. >  >	Jan        CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?n   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 08:07:11 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)d Subject: Re: World Trade Center 3 Message-ID: <qB3xf$uYaFBh@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  ` In article <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > H > I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenH > at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not stated > that it actually happened.  G    Cheney and others have made it quite clear that no actual shoot downoD    occurred.  No interceptors were able to reach any of the hijackedF    aircraft on time.  The order was given as much in anticipation that$    other aircraft could be involved.  F    The shootdown order did not remove the requirement to intercept and?    try to force aircraft to alter course.  It was made with theeH    knowledge that inoccent persons on board were likely to die no matter    what actions were taken.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:15:40 -0400n* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: World Trade Center - Message-ID: <0033000035556710000002L002*@MHS>-  2 =0AThe Marshall Plan resulted from the realization2 that the root cause of World War II were the harsh0 reparations included in the Treaty of Versailles1 which resulted in the severe economic instabilityr1 in the Weimar Republic, which further resulted inb* the rise, and acceptance of, Adolf Hitler.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETr+ > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:00 AMmD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET! > Subject: RE: World Trade Centere >  >o5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > < > > I would be curious to know what options you would see as > "reasonable" in5! > > the face of such a challenge.i >i8 > Consider that terrorists, by motivation, structure and > support, are veryp9 > similar to Guerilla (or partisan, to use an older word)u > groups. Military8 > force against partisans and Guerillas as well as their > supporters has beenn? > shown to be inffective for close to a century now (at least);d > force againstw= > their supporters can be seen to be particularly ineffectivev > and even counter-t> > productive. The only approach that has a chance is to remove > that support.h8 > This type of long-range thinking is exemplified in the > Marshall plan, whichH > likely is an accident of US history - but I must say I'm very glad an= d?" > grateful that accident happened. >e
 >      Jan >=   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 15:39:30 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o Subject: Re: World Trade CenterrH Message-ID: <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:m  G > 	You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewrB > 	with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.? > 	OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesoF > 	not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.  C So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.d  D There was a time when the old testament ("an eye for an eye") was anD improvement in human relations (blood feuds and all that). I tend toB think we have improved things somewhat in the past three millenia.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:54 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>w Subject: Re: World Trade Centert( Message-ID: <9o7jf1$48l$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:qB3xf$uYaFBh@eisner.encompasserve.org...eE > In article <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>, Alan Greigt <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > >"J > > I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenJ > > at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not stated > > that it actually happened. > I >    Cheney and others have made it quite clear that no actual shoot downeF >    occurred.  No interceptors were able to reach any of the hijacked >    aircraft on time.  K The only such statements I've heard referred specifically to the NYC and DCnL planes.  The timing certainly would have allowed shooting down the PA plane,I and I've heard no specific statements about it (nor has any evidence fromi4 its recovered flight recorder yet been made public).   ...p  H >    The shootdown order did not remove the requirement to intercept andA >    try to force aircraft to alter course.  It was made with theIJ >    knowledge that inoccent persons on board were likely to die no matter >    what actions were taken.P  G I'm curious about Alan's source for the information that the PA plane's @ pilot had announced they were going to land as instructed (by anH intercepting plane?) and that an explosion had occurred (possibly due to having been targeted).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 15:43:37 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>l Subject: Re: World Trade CenternH Message-ID: <y43d5klily.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:n  ! >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?f  I The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A'sh chief executive?   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 15:45:55 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CentereH Message-ID: <y4zo7sk3xo.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r  H > I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenH > at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not statedH > that it actually happened. The plane crashed at 10:10am. AF-1 took offG > at 9:50am. The FBI were asked  by journalists if they were ruling out # > a shoot-down. The response: "No".s  I If they manage to read out the flight data recorder, that will likely let4K the cat out of the bag - not that I believe that such an action can be kepta secret for very long.e   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:02:57 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centere8 Message-ID: <gvkeqtkihkrbupghi3aclu3tmtuaku05t9@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:15:23 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:o    > >above, initial support was from an anti-Communist perspective@ >and unfortunately not from a pro-freedom perspective.  I'm also> >not saying that U.S. foreign policy has been perfect, either.< >However, U.S. foreign policy mistakes are far outweighed by >wins.   Are they though? )   >m >David R. Beatty   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:02:55 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd8 Message-ID: <qjjeqtcinnni4dcchsgqakukfi6bvhcvq0@4ax.com>  F On 18 Sep 2001 08:07:11 -0500, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:    H >   Cheney and others have made it quite clear that no actual shoot downE >   occurred.  No interceptors were able to reach any of the hijackedu  E You could well be correct but the statements I have seen did not ruleiD out the possibility of a shoot down. Again I have seen press reportsB which very slightly altered his words to make it seem he denied itE totally (the press are good at that). The BBC now reports that one ofeC the hijackers wore a red bag on his belt said to contain a bomb andlE that the passengers were about to tackle him. A bomb would also matchyE eye-witness reports but that would point at even bigger problems witha airport security.w  E I'll go for a hunt again when I have time (In the middle of a big VMScE project we hope to get approval for). Maybe it has been categoricallytE ruled out but not on the interviews I have seen. He did say something-C about "too late" but,  in context , that could have referred to thel= passengers attempt to take control rather than the attempt toSB intercept. The last FBI press-conference I saw did not rule it out, either. despite reporters asking explicitly.  G >   aircraft on time.  The order was given as much in anticipation thaty% >   other aircraft could be involved.a  @ They knew other aircraft (including that one) were involved longD before it was shot down. That was the plane with the most cell callsD and airphone calls. Including from the attorney general's wife.  TheB plane also contacted ATC and requested an air corridor to New YorkC saying they were accepting the demands and returning to the airportHD according to other reports. Then we get even murkier but it seems itA switched its transponder back on and that showed the FMC had been F switched to JFK. Shortly after it veered off again and the transponderC was again switched off.  It then disappeared from the skies shortlyo after.   >CG >   The shootdown order did not remove the requirement to intercept andl@ >   try to force aircraft to alter course.  It was made with theI >   knowledge that inoccent persons on board were likely to die no mattera >   what actions were taken.  7 Yes and I agree with the decision as I said previously.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:42:22 -0400C+ From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com>o Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh+ Message-ID: <9o7mh0$2vs$1@bob.news.rcn.net>-  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9o6jka$gbs$1@pyrite.mv.net... <snip> > His recruits did allA > the damage, and there's evidence that at least some of them ledg life-stylesr! > that were decidedly un-ascetic.L  I I heard on CNN yesterday that their "un-ascetic" behavior may have been au smokescreen. --
 John Saundersn jws@ma.ultranet.comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:49:55 -0400 + From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com>r Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd+ Message-ID: <9o7mv5$525$1@bob.news.rcn.net>d  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:qjjeqtcinnni4dcchsgqakukfi6bvhcvq0@4ax.com...H > On 18 Sep 2001 08:07:11 -0500, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > wrote:   <snip>  - > That was the plane with the most cell calls A > and airphone calls. Including from the attorney general's wife.s  F Actually, that was Barbara Olsen, wife of Solicitor General Ted Olsen. --
 John Saunderss jws@ma.ultranet.come   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 09:50:16 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr3 Message-ID: <cIOcu1KdL5Ca@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <oj0eqt8uj5huvkdm1ml8u9fpt7ans3mmdf@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:F > On 17 Sep 2001 23:22:30 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >   B >>	accuse us of much more than transacting business... and here is
 >>	his edict:v >>N >>"We with Gods help call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to beL >>rewarded to comply with Gods order to kill the Americans and plunder their, >>money wherever and whenever they find it." > G > If he actually did order the WTC attack then why does someone who hastE > shown no fear of speaking his mind (however warped) deny it totallytB > and utterly adding "the real culprit organized this for personalE > reasons. I had nothing to do with it.." To me that suggests Saddam.0 >   ? 	He denies/denied the original WTC bombing.  However , at trialC? 	phone records were produced that linked him to the principals. C 	The prosecution lamented having to go there as that sent up a flagi< 	showing OBL we know/knew who he was/is talking too and they> 	lost the means to use that again in the future.  Now, -- everE 	the clever terrorist -- he communicates with encrypted cell phone(s)hA 	purchased in New York or so they say (and yes, no reference but g* 	man digging takes time, doesn't it?)  (1)  7 	So my point is... he very well could be lying - again.2   				Robr    < (1)  May have muddled this, feel free to clarify or correct!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:22:51 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>i Subject: Re: World Trade Centerc2 Message-ID: <alinO4gipuAD3RWtvqfaNrvaa4d4@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 15:43:37 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: >l" >>     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF? >eJ >The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's >chief executive?m >i >	JanY  >     George W. Bush is President of the United States, I simply0 don't appreciate the apparent backhanded insult.   David R. Beattyi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:47:24 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centera8 Message-ID: <chneqt0nc29avn5d3kok2clfckvo036vas@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 15:45:55 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  ( >Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: >aI >> I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenwI >> at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not stated I >> that it actually happened. The plane crashed at 10:10am. AF-1 took offeH >> at 9:50am. The FBI were asked  by journalists if they were ruling out$ >> a shoot-down. The response: "No". >yJ >If they manage to read out the flight data recorder, that will likely letL >the cat out of the bag - not that I believe that such an action can be kept >secret for very long.  A It is thought that the hijackers on most of the planes pulled thec) circuit-breakers on the flight recorders.c   >	Janm   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:24:21 +0200l5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center + Message-ID: <3BA76725.EBB6A62E@TeraPort.de>I   Alan Greig wrote:  >  > C > It is thought that the hijackers on most of the planes pulled thec+ > circuit-breakers on the flight recorders.a > 
 > >       Janh >   E  I am not an expert, but it is hard to believe that you could do thata from within a flying plane...a   Martin -- sB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309 7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111a5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:13:26 +0100i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c Subject: Re: World Trade Centern8 Message-ID: <0nneqt4ibsas7g6hnn98h6qrm845m8rc2t@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:54 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r wrote:    H >I'm curious about Alan's source for the information that the PA plane'sA >pilot had announced they were going to land as instructed (by annI >intercepting plane?) and that an explosion had occurred (possibly due toC >having been targeted).   D Reported by multiple UK news sources. Fairly sure both were reportedE in The Times or The Sunday Times amongst other things. Will search mylA printed copies when I get home as it is difficult to construct anb> online search that pins this down. Too many false hits on mostF keywords I try.  Ah here's one although I have seen better references.F Btw, I think I said Barbera Olson was on that plane but she was on the one that hit the Pentagon.  K http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/16/stiusausa01023.htmlu  C In the fields below, Michael Merringer was out on his mountain bikeEF when he heard the aircraft's engine surge. The landing gear was up and@ the plane was wobbling. What happened next remains unclear. SomeB reports say there was another plane in the sky; some say there wasB white smoke before an explosion; another said the plane was flying! upside down in its final moments.d  D Were the passengers fighting for their lives, grappling hand-to-hand? with the hijackers? Had a bomb gone off? Or, unbelievable as it E sounds, had a fighter plane shot down the rogue Boeing? The FBI laterK; did not reject the possibility, though other officials did.f  D Wreckage was found at two widely separated sites. Nobody can be sureF yet exactly what happened. Whatever the cause, seconds later the plane< ploughed into the ground and exploded, killing all on board.   ------  , Wil search for reports of the telepone calls >  >- billo >t >d   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:50:02 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t Subject: Re: World Trade Centero3 Message-ID: <8gpcepmSJXfF@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  R In article <9o79kr$pfv$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:mZU8LW7D0q3f@eisner.encompasserve.org...e >  > ...  > D >> And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, DonaldD >> Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"7 >> pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ ofWI >> our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from California0 >> on the other side.S > L > Wow!  I was really starting to worry that I might have been wrong all thisJ > time after you pointed that out.  But, fortunately, The Register has now > weighed in authoritatively:e >    	Nice sourcing.n   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:49:07 GMTH. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri8 Message-ID: <t6reqtgc33htr8618jib35qarautf3k6be@4ax.com>  . On 18 Sep 2001 15:43:37 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:" >>     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?J >The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's >chief executive?    No.o He is just the chief redneck.v   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:00:36 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i Subject: Re: World Trade Centern3 Message-ID: <IWNGEoUC4LJx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3BA76725.EBB6A62E@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes:c > G >  I am not an expert, but it is hard to believe that you could do thate > from within a flying plane...a  A    The pilot in command can do just about anything on an Americang@    aircaft, but I think the black boxes were designed with power(    failures in mind (internal battery?).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:40:23 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <hiqeqt40p4ni6h0lhj02pj4f64h7ljdpm1@4ax.com>  3 On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:49:55 -0400, "John Saunders"  <jws@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:  3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message.3 >news:qjjeqtcinnni4dcchsgqakukfi6bvhcvq0@4ax.com... I >> On 18 Sep 2001 08:07:11 -0500, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r	 >> wrote:a >e ><snip>a >r. >> That was the plane with the most cell callsB >> and airphone calls. Including from the attorney general's wife. >iG >Actually, that was Barbara Olsen, wife of Solicitor General Ted Olsen.m  > And it wasn't even that plane. Time I got some sleep tonight.  -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 11:07:55 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm3 Message-ID: <IxXmkzy$aT3F@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:g > H >> 	You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewC >> 	with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.g@ >> 	OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesG >> 	not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.h > E > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.  >   ; 	What are you even suggesting?   How many countries are we tH 	occupying today with troops forceably restraining the local population? 	dE 	Do you even think I or the vast majority of my fellow citizens wouldd. 	even support random indiscriminate killing ofA 	another people as a policy?   Trot out Vietnam.  We still recall B 	the "Mi Lai" (sp?) massacre.  I think you would at least agree weC 	value human life far more than the folks that bought those one-way 	 	tickets.t  E 	It's about justice.  Not revenge.  And our leader's sense of justiceo+ 	may not be appealing to you.  That's fine.t  F > There was a time when the old testament ("an eye for an eye") was anF > improvement in human relations (blood feuds and all that). I tend toD > think we have improved things somewhat in the past three millenia.  D 	So how do you explain WWI?  WWII?  The Holocaust?  Are you skipping@ 	the latter half of the 20th century?  How about Stalin killing = 	20 million of his own?  Far more vicious than much that took0? 	place in WWII.  It's all about wickedness and evil.  Somethinga# 	we can't "talk" or "educate" away.:   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:37:03 +0100h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <e8qeqt4v5c6ne8r96ft8a47ta48o8nb934@4ax.com>  D On 18 Sep 2001 09:50:16 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  @ >	He denies/denied the original WTC bombing.  However , at trial@ >	phone records were produced that linked him to the principals.  E Being "linked to the principals" does not equal "planned it". In factlC wasn't evidence also brought forward that suggested US IntelligencenD infiltrators had actually suggested the WTC bombing with the plan of/ arresting anyone who attempted to carry it out?f  D >	The prosecution lamented having to go there as that sent up a flag= >	showing OBL we know/knew who he was/is talking too and theye? >	lost the means to use that again in the future.  Now, -- everoF >	the clever terrorist -- he communicates with encrypted cell phone(s)B >	purchased in New York or so they say (and yes, no reference but + >	man digging takes time, doesn't it?)  (1)  >r8 >	So my point is... he very well could be lying - again.  F Or he could have been telling the truth both occasions. Innocent until proved guilty. No?   >				Rob >e >n= >(1)  May have muddled this, feel free to clarify or correct!    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:31:32 +0200w& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centere* Message-ID: <3BA776E4.4BD3CC9F@dplanet.ch>   Rob Young wrote: > T > In article <9o5nei$22q$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > >c< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:Mslpmt0kU088@eisner.encompasserve.org...-O > >> In article <9o5htm$sjd$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>. > > writes:n > >> >? > >> > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in messagea4 > >> > news:Q1vba+CN6Z+q@eisner.encompasserve.org...   ... snip ...   > H >   You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewC >   with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that. @ >   OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesB >   not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they >   are. > @ >   You prattle on about talk and education.  He views this as aD >   religious jihad and Allah is nearly mentioned in every sentence. > % >                                 Roba  H And you should catch up with more recent interviews with people who have  met bin Laden a number of times.  H The Australian television program Four Corners ran a report on bin Laden. this week.  The home page of the program is at http://abc.net.au/4corners/ .t  F In particular I draw you attention to the transcript of the program asH broadcast and the transcript of the full interview with Robert Fisk, theD Middle-eastern correspondent for the UK newspaper "The Independent".  H I won't try to summarise what Fisk said but I will say that it is one of7 the most intelligent comments that I have seen to date.e     John McLeanl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:45:28 +0200i& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centert* Message-ID: <3BA77A28.81EB68F3@dplanet.ch>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > / > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  > N > >       You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewI > >       with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.rF > >       OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesM > >       not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.t > E > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.h > F > There was a time when the old testament ("an eye for an eye") was anF > improvement in human relations (blood feuds and all that). I tend toD > think we have improved things somewhat in the past three millenia. > 
 >         Janr  G No Jan, a lot of people in the USA are still busy living out the cowboycF westerns of the 1950's.  (A reversion to childhood ideas ?)  They wantH to form a posse and hunt bin Laden down.  Wanted Dead or Alive.  If he'sA alive we'll try him and then hang him.  Maybe it really is just a1 lynch-mob that we are seeing.n  G Underlying it all is their infallible (or infantile) righteousness that E they couldn't have possibly done anything to make people angry.  Theyr< believe such an idea to be to preposterous to contemplate.    E There's a few sane voices but they are being drowned out by those whomC just want to shoot or bomb something somewhere and to hell with the  possible consequences.  E A web petition asking Bush to show restraint and think hard before heS) acts can be found in several languages at-! http://www.findefux.de/petition/.1  e   John McLean    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 23:48:35 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center<- Message-ID: <87y9ncxzxo.fsf@prep.synonet.com>q  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   - > Or does the US news not report such things?r  @ You jest? If it's not within the boarders of the continental US, it does not exist.  C Odd exception for presedential visits, and whatever the marines are  walking all over this week.O   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 00:01:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center - Message-ID: <87pu8oxzbr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:   E > 	And to describe George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Donald hD > 	Rumsfield , The Senate 96-0 and Congress 420-1 as "simple minded"7 > 	pretty much sums up things.  How about that, 520+ of I > 	our leadership on one side and Bill Todd and that lady from Californiah > 	on the other side.   6 No brainer win to the good lady, and Bill from here...     -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 23:57:05 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center - Message-ID: <87u1y0xzji.fsf@prep.synonet.com>w  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:   C > It is thought that the hijackers on most of the planes pulled thes+ > circuit-breakers on the flight recorders..  F Would not matter, the FDRs have a inbuild power supply. Power failures2 are one of the key items in interpreting the data.  C The CVR is another issue, many of them CAN be shut off or bypassed.m   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.@@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 19:15:02 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center H Message-ID: <y4zo7s8lpl.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  . Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:  E > The CVR is another issue, many of them CAN be shut off or bypassed..  & If only be smashing the microphones...   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:17:15 -040005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i Subject: Re: World Trade Centert1 Message-ID: <YkLp7.317$YP.10852@news.cpqcorp.net>   : Bill Todd wrote in message <9o6jka$gbs$1@pyrite.mv.net>...9 >"Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message . >news:9m3jtQP253z1@eisner.encompasserve.org... >a >... >hC >> You offer a solution of "talk" and "education" to convince folkse  >> that decide to be terrorists. >uK >Not exactly.  I suggest that we need to review policies that upset people,uJ >talk with them to help us understand their point of view and to help themH >understand that we aren't just going to ignore it, change such policiesL >where they are flat-out wrong or of no importance, improve the execution ofD >policies that are appropriate but may not be well-implemented, seekL >mutually-acceptable compromises in areas that reflect practical rather thanL >fundamental philosophical differences, and keep talking about any remainingJ >points of contention to ensure that not only do we understand their viewsB >but that they understand the reasoning behind ours - because suchL >conversations not only sometimes eventually *do* reach unexpected agreementH >but keep people engaged in a civilized manner rather than across battle >lines.l >g< >In other words, what we ought to have been doing all along. >-D >Will this help keep *some* people from deciding they must resort toC >terrorism?  Indubitably.  Will it keep *all* people from doing so?-2 >Indubitably not - but neither will anything else. >4 > snip >-    J After my initial reaction (and response) I decided to pretty much not evenL read this thread.  It is the type of discussion that becomes pointless.  OneJ side demonizing the other.  The use of scripture to justify ones position.K The apologist who believes that if we can all just sing Kumbaya all will belK well.  Bill is the worst of the offenders - a "Blame us", "do nothing", andfL bad mouth anyone who has a contrary opinion.  I fully expect Bill to write aK "you idiot" response to this... doesn't matter, I'll probably filter "World  Trade" later today.e   The sad truths:t  F We as a nation, are guilty of actions that may have led some people to "hate" the U.S.T  K Some of those actions were arguably wrong on our part.  That is, to advancewF some agenda, we ignored the probable side effects that it might cause.  H Some are not our fault, but we are blamed nonetheless, perhaps simply asE being percieved as a wealthy nation.  A poor nation resents a wealthyoH nation, and feels an entitlement to share in the wealth.  And as someoneJ will no doubt point out, we (especially in the past) had no compunction in) exploiting (plundering) weaker countries.o  K Some we are caught between a rock and a hard place.  Do we "abandon" IsraelgJ simply because to *some* people there cannot *be* a solution that includesF it's existance?  Bill Clinton spent a lot of time to try and bring theK parties together, including using our "clout" with Israel to coerce them toeK the table.  Did we get any credit for it?  No, in fact the radicals on both J sides were pissed because NEITHER want the other side to exist.   RememberH that until the radical forces on BOTH sides caused it's undoing, we wereA tetering on the brink of normal relations and peace in Palestine.d  L Will "talking" fix things?  Not likely.  Not even a formal apology will helpJ (an Iranian I was talking to before the return of the Ayatola) told me "WeH hate the U.S., and we will always hate you.  We want you to do the rightJ thing, but understand it will not change our hatred.".  Nor will money fixJ it.  Money might make some things better, but the RADICAL elements in play here do NOT want a compromise.  E So what do we do?  Bill is full of a brown substance in thinking thateG "making nice" will reduce terrorism, or the hatred for the U.S. by some"L people.  If we want to change our policies towards others, then we should beE doing so because its simply "the right thing to do".  But some of the I thorniest problems are in areas that HAVE NO OBVIOUS SOLUTION THAT WE CANoK IMPOSE - AND WHERE WE HAVE ONLY "SOME" INFLUENCE - like Palestine.  Frankly>K I believe that the current regime is Israel is dead wrong, and has set backoA the cause of peace 20 years.  Most people I know believe that theeI Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.  But at the same time, nobody I 3 know is suggesting that Israel must cease to exist.u  L We are left with a real problem.  In the long term, we need to try to attackK the sources of the problems.  For instance why we would leave a despot likeeL Saddam in place.  Or how to engineer a compromise with the moderate elementsK in Israel and Palestine - but which can't be undone by the radicals on both.H sides.  Or how to help alieve the poverty in a place like Afganistan andI Palestine - the terrorist attack will have a economic cost well over $100yK billion - a fraction of that in aid, might have perhaps made an attack like0& we just saw, "slightly" less probable.  J But in the short term, we need to make the price to be paid for the act soF high, that nobody is tempted to consider a follow up.  We know who theK suspects are in a host of terrorist acts - not just the latest.  We need tonI hunt them down, and kill them all.  Were I to have no morals, I would say7J that we should kill their entire families.  Nothing is a deterent like theF threat of having every living relative killed (as the Russians, or theH Mafia).  If a country harboring one of them will not cooperate, then allH options should be considered - from political/economic (which only has a> limited effect - see Cuba, Iraq, and Afganistan), to military.  K That may mean turning Kabul into a parking lot, should the Taliban not read2K the writing on the wall (and the Pakistanies are working overtime trying tonK convince them that the "needs of the whole outweigh the needs of the one").SG Yes, this will no doubt have what they euphamistically call "collateral  damage".  I That may mean finishing the job on Saddam, and normalizing relations withb% whoever the Iraqi's replace him with.8  I That may mean a formal apology to Iran, an attempt to normalize relationsp) and eliminate their support of terrorism.   K That may mean bringing more clout to bear of Israel to settle their problem 5 that is dragging the entire world into this quagmire.r  G That may mean sending aid to Palestine, but at the same time wiping outp Hammas.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.520 ************************