1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 19 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 521       Contents: Re: aircraft fuels Re: Bomb The Mosques CETS2001 Symposia Notes . Re: Compaq meeting at World Trade Center 9/11? Re: Decnet Copy problem  Re: Decnet Copy problem  Re: Decnet Copy problem  Re: Decnet Copy problem % Re: DECWindows won't start on console 5 FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master 9 Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master 9 Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master 9 Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master P Re: Free DEC/CPQ supplied terminal emulators, was: Re: Free VT terminal emulator# Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...   Re: increase command line buffer Re: LAT Queues wont start - Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents - Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents , Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center " Question: Limiting Processor Usage Re: Re-direction of output! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?  We are back from CETS  Re: We are back from CETS = What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0??????? A Re: What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0??????? A Re: What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0???????  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:13:33 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: aircraft fuels ' Message-ID: <3BA7F13D.1F72A4BB@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > ] > In article <3BA6A6A7.8F62CAA0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > I > > I would think that the fault for not discovering such a blunder until D > > startup, run-up or the take-off roll would lie with the pilot inL > > command. If you've done a proper fuel sample during your pre-flight, theG > > tell-tale odor (or possibly even color!) of the fuel should raise a # > > responsible pilot's suspicions.  > G >    True, but many pilots fail to recheck when they see a pump labeled E >    100LL.  And it can be hard to tell.  If you mix 100LL with Jet-A G >    you're supposed to get a clear liquid, but the blue color of 100LL " >    is so light it can be missed.  F It's still gonna smell like Jet fuel, or at least different from 100LL ("blue gas"). Color, odor, ...  G Gotta use *ALL* your senses, before casting your fate, quite literally,  to the wind.   ...IMHO, YMMV.  D At Beech Aero Club and Planemasters, I as a student had a reputationC among the instructors for doing such a thorough pre-flight, I found  stuff *THEY* missed!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:03:08 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Bomb The Mosques * Message-ID: <3BA79A6C.8D0DB7DD@virgin.net>  
 H1Dunc wrote:   F > How would it be if some ex marine with a few million dollars startedI > training and indoctrinating some impreshionable young boys? could it be  > done?  >   M Tell you what. You go off and indoctrinate "impreshionable (sic)  young boys" P and we will report you to the appropriate authorities. Sounds a fair deal to me.  > I see we're crossposted to comp.os.vms and aus.religion.islam. --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 14:08:52 -0500# From: medleyb@ev1.net (Bert Medley)   Subject: CETS2001 Symposia Notes: Message-ID: <Xns912090C64FA70medleybev1net@207.218.245.68>  B Anyone have any idea when these will be available on the web site?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:10:42 -0400 , From: Mark Schafer <mark.schafer@compaq.com>7 Subject: Re: Compaq meeting at World Trade Center 9/11? ) Message-ID: <3BA7AA42.6010201@compaq.com>    Gary,   H Thank you for your concern.  We've been told that four Compaq employees I were meeting with two employees from Nomura Research Institute of Japan.     All six are missing.   Mark   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:36:27 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem2 Message-ID: <tYWnOxAKLyXZwjKQw+FQZbrOaYbr@4ax.com>  8     You can also check SYS$SYLOGIN and the Login Command@ Procedure for the user on the target node and see if anything is/ going out to SYS$OUTPUT during a Network login.    David R. Beatty   E On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:19:07 +0800, "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>  wrote:  J >When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns the >error "Network partner exist".  > $ >I have check and try the following:< >1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails.K >2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing logged. * >3. I have do the following NCL in node B: >    NCL> show node 0 4 >    - it will returns the tower set and successful. >   NCL> show node B= >   - it will fail with the error application not responding. J >4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both >group and world.  > L >I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything I >can do? >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:44:02 +0800 % From: "VMS Novice" <best@hotmail.com>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem0 Message-ID: <9o8m3o$cch2@imsp212.netvigator.com>   SET HOST B is fine.   J The exact problem is B can decnet copy from all other node, but other nodeE cannot decnet from node A. And PHONE can also work in node B as well.   5 "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> ????? ( news:3BA76EE1.B672BB4@cableinet.co.uk... >  >  > Kenneth wrote: > > I > > When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns  the " > > error "Network partner exist". > > ' > > I have check and try the following: ? > > 1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails. F > > 2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing logged. - > > 3. I have do the following NCL in node B:  > >     NCL> show node 07 > >     - it will returns the tower set and successful.  > >    NCL> show node B @ > >    - it will fail with the error application not responding.H > > 4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both > > group and world. > > D > > I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there
 anything I > > can do?  > B > CHeck the operator log and/or accounting log on node B for login > failures that  > may be related to this.  >   > Can you "$set host B " from A? >  > that might get you started > 	 > regards  >  > -- > Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  > D > Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of# > my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:45:44 +0800 % From: "VMS Novice" <best@hotmail.com>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem0 Message-ID: <9o8m83$dke1@imsp212.netvigator.com>   I have added the line"K IF F$MODE = "NETWORK" then EXIT in SYLOGIN, but the decnet copy still fail.   7 "David Beatty" <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ????? , news:tYWnOxAKLyXZwjKQw+FQZbrOaYbr@4ax.com... > : >     You can also check SYS$SYLOGIN and the Login CommandB > Procedure for the user on the target node and see if anything is1 > going out to SYS$OUTPUT during a Network login.  >  > David R. Beatty  > G > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:19:07 +0800, "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>  > wrote: > L > >When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns the! > >error "Network partner exist".  > > & > >I have check and try the following:> > >1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails.E > >2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing  logged. , > >3. I have do the following NCL in node B: > >    NCL> show node 0 6 > >    - it will returns the tower set and successful. > >   NCL> show node B? > >   - it will fail with the error application not responding. L > >4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both > >group and world.  > > L > >I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything I 
 > >can do? > >  > >  > >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:19:24 GMT / From: murraytheelf@earthlink.net (Murray D'Elf)   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem1 Message-ID: <3ba7fe78.2938991@news.earthlink.net>   C On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:45:44 +0800, "VMS Novice" <best@hotmail.com>  wrote:   >I have added the line" L >IF F$MODE = "NETWORK" then EXIT in SYLOGIN, but the decnet copy still fail. > 8 >"David Beatty" <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ?????- >news:tYWnOxAKLyXZwjKQw+FQZbrOaYbr@4ax.com...  >>; >>     You can also check SYS$SYLOGIN and the Login Command C >> Procedure for the user on the target node and see if anything is 2 >> going out to SYS$OUTPUT during a Network login. >> >> David R. Beatty >>H >> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:19:07 +0800, "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>	 >> wrote:  >>M >> >When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns the " >> >error "Network partner exist". >> >' >> >I have check and try the following: ? >> >1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails. F >> >2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing >logged.- >> >3. I have do the following NCL in node B:  >> >    NCL> show node 07 >> >    - it will returns the tower set and successful.  >> >   NCL> show node B @ >> >   - it will fail with the error application not responding.M >> >4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both  >> >group and world. >> >M >> >I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything  >I >> >can do?  >> >    A Does the LOGIN.COM on node B have something like a SET PROC/NAME   or a SET TERM/INQUIRE in it?    " Try putting a "$ DEFINE FAL$LOG 1"A in the LOGIN.COM temporarily.  It will cause the NETSERVER.LOG to * record every file touched by that session.   Hope this helps    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 15:26:10 -0500+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) . Subject: Re: DECWindows won't start on console3 Message-ID: <5TrlHex4zr0N@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3BA0512B.C73EFFC8@icehouse.net>, Catherine McKinney <catmckinney@icehouse.net> writes:J > I recently upgraded an AS1200 from VMS 7.1-1H1 to 7.21. After applying aB > couple of system patches DECWindows would no longer start on theH > console. I was getting error messages that my globalsections parameterG > was too low so I ran autogen and upped the amount. The error messages J > stopped and it appears that the DECWindows server process is running butJ > the console just comes up in character mode. I don't know too much aboutG > DECWindows (obviously) and would appreciate some help on this matter.  > Specifically:  > H > 1.  How does the system know whether to run DECWindows on the console?9 > 2.  Is there a setting somewhere that I need to change?  >   M If you're using Multinet, there was a patch at 7.2-1 or 7.3, I forget which,  # needed to get the server started.      ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:53:14 +0000 / From: Rob Maxwell <rsmaxwell8364@email.msn.com> > Subject: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master6 Message-ID: <3bb5959a.130278220@kingdom.of.alt.config>  7 Listen carefully you sorry bunch of filthy shit eaters.   B I am your Lord Kerman's Sergeant at Arms, and your new Lord is not pleased with your attitude.   D Many of you worthless bastards have not shown him proper respect and? have failed to attach his Royal Signature to all of your posts.   D That was not a request, it was a Royal Order and must be obeyed! YouC will obey his orders, without question, or as he promised, you will 5 be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you are!   C Lord Kerman is also displeased that many of you little bitches have C threatened to report him to his ISP! Save your impotent threats, we D are not impressed nor are we intimidated! WE ARE ALT.CONFIG! We call, the shots around here and we are UNSTOPABLE!  A We at alt.config, under the leadership of Lord Kerman, are now in B charge of ALL newsgroups and you motherfuckers had better get that' through you puny little heads, OR ELSE!   0 CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!    =    ***** This was posted with the express permission of ***** =    ********************************************************** =    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** =    ********************************************************** =    *********** We are simple servants of his will ***********         W Lord Kerman's subject Christian Garms <c.garms@paradise.net.nz> had the nerve to write:   1 >"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.chinet.com> writes:  > & >> X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca >  >[x] mail sent to his ISP. > 6 >> I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! >  >*plonk*   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:58:23 GMT & From: Lew_Pitcher@td.com (Lew Pitcher)B Subject: Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master3 Message-ID: <3ba79934.372228255@news21.on.aibn.com>   	   *plonk*   / On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:53:14 +0000, Rob Maxwell $ <rsmaxwell8364@email.msn.com> wrote:   [nothing important]   U Lew Pitcher, Information Technology Consultant, Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group  (Lew_Pitcher@td.com)  3 (Opinions expressed are my own, not my employer's.)    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:14:04 GMT 6 From: blkdragn@rochester.rr.com.invalid (Black Dragon)B Subject: Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master; Message-ID: <slrn9qfhcv.v9v.blkdragn@localhost.localdomain>    Lew Pitcher wrote:   :   *plonk*     It's (was :-) a sporgery attack.  D You can filter on "newsfeed.sovam.com" in the path, which is an openC nntp server in Russia where the 'HipCrime' spew is coming from. See ; here for more info: <URL:http://extra.newsguy.com/~rchason>     : * Remembrance <URL:http://roadrage.myip.org/rest-in-peace>   --  L Black Dragon                  |  Its really terrible when the FBI arrested aL * Free Speech                 |  hacker, who visited the USA with a peacefulK * Free Dmitry Sklyarov!       |  mission -- to share his knowledge with the2E <URL:http://freesklyarov.org> |  American Nation.  (Ilya V. Vasilyev)S   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:44:40 GMTt, From: ahlstromc@home.com (Colonel Knowledge)B Subject: Re: FINAL WARNING     Re: I am Adam H. Kerman your master< Message-ID: <s7Qp7.35126$xB1.8034575@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>  D After dropping an LSD tablet, Rob Maxwell went apeshit and screamed:  9 > Listen carefully you sorry bunch of filthy shit eaters.  > D > I am your Lord Kerman's Sergeant at Arms, and your new Lord is not > pleased with your attitude.  > F > Many of you worthless bastards have not shown him proper respect andA > have failed to attach his Royal Signature to all of your posts.r > F > That was not a request, it was a Royal Order and must be obeyed! YouE > will obey his orders, without question, or as he promised, you wille7 > be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you are!    I obey, my Master.   -- r: ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****: **********************************************************: ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET **: **********************************************************: *********** We are simple servants of his will ***********   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 20:46:30 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)Y Subject: Re: Free DEC/CPQ supplied terminal emulators, was: Re: Free VT terminal emulatore* Message-ID: <3ba79686$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  x In article <GO8e7.775$2u.25463@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.excite.com-Earth.UFP> writes:/ >On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:47:54 +0200, in article 6 ><9lahce$5b91@sunny.mannesmann.de>, Roland Hauk wrote: >>1 >>Try this unsupported freeware from PATHWORKS CDt >>$ >>Compaq PATHWORKS 32 VT320 V7.1.0034 >>http://download.uni-hd.de/ftp/incoming/vt320_7.exe2 >>ftp://ftp.uni-heidelberg.de/incoming/vt320_7.exe >t: >Thanks for the URL. I have downloaded it and examined it. >e3 >First, the bad news: It doesn't have DRCS support.m  I That was news to me. But because I don't need it, I haven't checked also.   G >Now the good news: This is by far the best free terminal emulator that F >I have used. Since I don't use Pathworks, I wasn't aware that DEC/CPQ2 >had created a freely available terminal emulator. >rB >Does anybody know if this emulator is the only one that is freelyA >available from CPQ or have they created other emulators that ared >also available ?   H PATHWORKS-32 includes now the PowerTerm525 emulator, which is the reasonK why the old VT320.EXE is now free (it got replaced). It is a very good ideatL of DEC/Q to offer the old one for free. However, in earlier times it was notJ free, but was covered by the PATHWORKS-32 license (or their predecessors).  O PT525 is a good terminal emulator, but it is not free (but may sometime become)eB It does however to the best of my knowledge no license checking...   -- r< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888e< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:23:56 +0100o+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> , Subject: Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...' Message-ID: <3BA7AD5C.A9E74B76@iee.org>6   David Mathog wrote:DQ > development..   If the FTC sees nothing anticompetitve about  Intel controllingfQ > ARM, PA-RISC, Alpha, and Pentium then surely they'll have no problem with Intel   * Not disagreeing at all but don't chipzilla, control StrongARM (now xscale or some such)?. Surely ARM control ARM (or did I get confused  somewhere along the line?)   Antonios     --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgi   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Sep 2001 22:52:50 GMT' From: "Jim Strehlow" <jims@data911.com>e) Subject: Re: increase command line bufferi0 Message-ID: <9o8j82$c9o@dispatch.concentric.net>  : 1) The following shows others how to use temporary symbols" $a = "Your first parameter string" $!+ $b1="First 250 characters of a long string"o* $b2="Next 250 characters of a long string"! $b3="Another 250 characters etc.",
 $b = b1+b2+b3e $! $@proc.com "''a'"  "''b'"I   which following the proc.com isn5   <begin double quotes> <single quote> <single quote>      the letter a(     <single quote> <close double quotes>  4  <begin double quotes> <single quote> <single quote>     the letter b(     <single quote> <close double quotes>   for your two parameters-    ; 2) For strings between 1024 characters and 2048 characters,e; DCL allows you to read file data up to 2048 characters longs( and write your data to another disk file e.g. $OPEN/READ  XIN  file1 $OPEN/WRITE  XOUT  file2 $READ  XIN  WRECORDa $ WRITE/SYMBOL  XOUT  WRECORDc $CLOSE  XINe $CLOSE  XOUT  = but, DCL limits symbols to a 1024 character buffer otherwise.   / Can you modify the called procedure to "handle"o- three parameters splitting parameter two into & a parameter two and a parameter three?   Hope that helps (??)  & JimStrehlow, Data911  JimS@Data911.com Alameda, CA, USA  6 "Let them do their worst ... and we will do our best."     donmann wrote in message4 <6cbf112a.0109180944.4e083ffb@posting.google.com>...E >I am trying to call a procedure with two arguments.  The second is a A >string that I build but at times the string gets too big for the- >buffer size. Any ideas?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:18:41 -0400a- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>a" Subject: Re: LAT Queues wont start( Message-ID: <3BA79E05.D70676B7@ohio.edu>  P Has there been a change in the disk configuration affecting the spooling device?                   RDPN     Piyush Avichal wrote:    > Hi,  >lO > I am experiencing a problem with my LAT queues. They seemed to have gone into M > a stopped state and I am unable to restart them. I can restart normal batchuO > queues and IP print queues, but any queues that are using LAT will not start.>R > I have other vaxes which have the same setup and those LAT queues are unaffected > and work fine. >nN > Printer queue CORPORATE_SECRETARIES_1$PRINT, stopped, autostart inactive, on' > NEWDEV::LTA501:, mounted form DEFAULT7 >87 > NEWDEV(PA)$ start/queue CORPORATE_SECRETARIES_1$PRINT / > %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available  >l6 > Even stopping and reseting the queues has no effect. > . > Does anyone know what might be causing this? >e	 > Thanks,n >  > Piyush   --B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:20:28 +0100s+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> 6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents' Message-ID: <3BA7AC8C.47A4BD21@iee.org>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:- > g > In article <10tpptcssoume71id4h217hfvohj501lnr@4ax.com>, Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com> writes:c > ..1 > :What's critically missing at this juncture is:a > :o@ > :- KA650/KA655 boot rom code, binary dump or preferably source > F >   FWIW, I've the Mayfair code, it is VMB and some bootstrap drivers.G >   (Copies of the Seahorse, Mayflower, and Mayfair ROM contents -- theeF >   source code for the ROMs for the KA610 (KD32), KA630, and KA650 --J >   all exist in the OpenVMS VAX source code control library here in ZKO.)  , Given that the uVAX II ROM sources allegedly. appeared on one or other of the V4 fiche sets,, and given the lack of commercial value here,+ what chance is there that this could appearh on the Freeware CD?v  + > :- RQDX3 (MSCP) programming specification  > K >   Donno if that ever got released.  There was only a very limited release H >   and very limited availability of the MSCP specifications (before theH >   materials were withdrawn), and copies of the MSCP specifications are, >   rather hard to find outside the company.  ! This cannot be worth a whole heapu either these days.  ( Surely COMPAQ would sanction the release- of this sort of stuff? It's two architectureso old after all!   Antonior   -- d   ---------------o- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:18:35 GMTg+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>i6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents+ Message-ID: <3BA7CEAD.6E4B1701@ins-msi.com>f   "antonio.carlini" wrote: >  > Hoff Hoffman wrote:- > >-i > > In article <10tpptcssoume71id4h217hfvohj501lnr@4ax.com>, Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com> writes:D > > ..3 > > :What's critically missing at this juncture is:o > > : B > > :- KA650/KA655 boot rom code, binary dump or preferably source > > H > >   FWIW, I've the Mayfair code, it is VMB and some bootstrap drivers.I > >   (Copies of the Seahorse, Mayflower, and Mayfair ROM contents -- the H > >   source code for the ROMs for the KA610 (KD32), KA630, and KA650 --L > >   all exist in the OpenVMS VAX source code control library here in ZKO.) > . > Given that the uVAX II ROM sources allegedly0 > appeared on one or other of the V4 fiche sets,. > and given the lack of commercial value here,- > what chance is there that this could appearl > on the Freeware CD?"   Please?  8-)  ; I am also interested in the MicroVAX I ROM sources as well.    > - > > :- RQDX3 (MSCP) programming specification. > >2M > >   Donno if that ever got released.  There was only a very limited release J > >   and very limited availability of the MSCP specifications (before theJ > >   materials were withdrawn), and copies of the MSCP specifications are. > >   rather hard to find outside the company. > # > This cannot be worth a whole heapo > either these days. > * > Surely COMPAQ would sanction the release/ > of this sort of stuff? It's two architecturesb > old after all! > 	 > Antonioi >  > -- >  > --------------- / > Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org   
 Jeff Campbell0 n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2001 05:33:38 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)h5 Subject: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1N, Message-ID: <9o9ani$6s1@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  > Subject says it all, the next version of Mozilla (0.9.5?) will? require V7.2-1 and above.  After the first release, M10 all thew? way through 0.6, 0.8, the 0.9 series VMS versions V7.1, et. al.c: including 7.1-2 were supported.  Mozilla 1.0 was so close.   More suckiness from Compaq.t   -- Vance Haemmerleo vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:43:02 +0100y% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>0' Subject: OT: Let's make one thing clear>* Message-ID: <3BA7B1D6.C4F34F0A@virgin.net>  B Just to make this clear. If I had a direct line to the planners ofB this act then you'd see a *real* outpouring of disgust, anger and,B yes,  hate. What some might interpret as hate of the US and all it? stands for comes from anguish and worry that the US, out of the B extremely understandable desire to hit back right now, brings evenE worse destruction. If I did not fear this I would not be so wound up.   D Nor do I think the US is perfect. Nor am I. Some Americans I respectE more than others. Some Brits I respect more than others. That's life.E  D I will support military action and *hard* military action if there'sF an achievable and effective goal that really can reduce the likelyhoodC of anything as terrrible ever occurring again. Otherwise I will note and I'll say why.    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:57:22 -0600a% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>t+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear.B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010918145320.00ae7a20@ntbsod.psccos.com>  ( At 02:43 PM 9/18/2001, Alan Greig wrote:  C >Just to make this clear. If I had a direct line to the planners ofeC >this act then you'd see a *real* outpouring of disgust, anger and,<C >yes,  hate. What some might interpret as hate of the US and all ito@ >stands for comes from anguish and worry that the US, out of theC >extremely understandable desire to hit back right now, brings evenlF >worse destruction. If I did not fear this I would not be so wound up. >lE >Nor do I think the US is perfect. Nor am I. Some Americans I respectoF >more than others. Some Brits I respect more than others. That's life. >eE >I will support military action and *hard* military action if there's.G >an achievable and effective goal that really can reduce the likelyhoodtD >of anything as terrrible ever occurring again. Otherwise I will not >and I'll say why.  D The only problem is, you'll never know the REAL reason for action orH inaction.  You'll make assumptions based on what, for example, the pressD might say or what another country might say, but you'll *NEVER* knowD the real reason.  The US doesn't (and quite rightly so) ever discussH intelligence operations, and it's those operations and the data gatheredH from them, that will be used in making decisions.  I'll go out on a limbH and say you don't/won't have bugs in the War Room of the Pentagon, or in the Oval Office.  F So, feel free to "say why".  But in the end, you won't really know anyF more about what/where/why/how than any other newspaper hack in this orE any other country.  You may wish to use that knowledge to temper youra remarks about this country.s  8 Or not.  We're at least a free society, if nothing else.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 16:11:18 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleart3 Message-ID: <wAYsleZcKRu3@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  R In article <3BA7B1D6.C4F34F0A@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > D > Just to make this clear. If I had a direct line to the planners ofD > this act then you'd see a *real* outpouring of disgust, anger and,D > yes,  hate. What some might interpret as hate of the US and all itA > stands for comes from anguish and worry that the US, out of theAD > extremely understandable desire to hit back right now, brings evenG > worse destruction. If I did not fear this I would not be so wound up.* > F > Nor do I think the US is perfect. Nor am I. Some Americans I respectG > more than others. Some Brits I respect more than others. That's life.  > F > I will support military action and *hard* military action if there'sH > an achievable and effective goal that really can reduce the likelyhoodE > of anything as terrrible ever occurring again. Otherwise I will not> > and I'll say why.s >   9 	This is a better response in a lot of ways.  I hear you.H  A 	I can't say I speak for all, but maybe many see it the way I do.-  H 	Again, the initial reaction before the talking heads created a feedbackG 	loop was that this was "just like Pearl Harbor", that's folks chattinge# 	within minutes here in the office.3  C 	Or course it isn't but it is similar.  It was a totally unprovoked8F 	attack of innocents on our soil.  Pearl Harbor was military attackingH 	military, unprovoked.  Now some might argue we have provoked terroristsC 	by our behavior... that's debatable and certainly not the majorityxF 	views of our country's leadership nor many of the world's leadership.  @ 	The way I see it is folks would like to narrow the scope of our> 	response.  Our scope is too broad in that we are "at war withB 	terrorism."  If your country is a known safe haven for terroristsE 	and/or sponsors terrorism at the state level, be very very concernedt+ 	as the goal here is to wipe out terrorism.t   	Unreasonable goal?o% 	A worthy goal, if even unobtainable.s@ 	More harm to our country?  Most likely.  But there really isn'tC 	anything else to be done but wipe these suckers out.  Their statedeB 	goals very publically is "Death to America" and they are getting	 	better at it every few years.  G 	You got a cockroach problem?  You certainly don't ignore them.  Yeah, cF 	maybe you live in a bad part of town or a bad flat/apartment and theyD 	keep coming back.  That doesn't mean you don't do your darndest to @ 	eradicate the cockroaches AND if you get cooperation from your F 	neighbors you bomb all the nests you rid the whole building of them. @ 	Do they come back in a few months?   Maybe, maybe not, crank up  	the cockroach bombs if they do.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:20:30 -0400a' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleari( Message-ID: <9o8kp7$sd9$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:wAYsleZcKRu3@eisner.encompasserve.org...l   ...t  A > The way I see it is folks would like to narrow the scope of ouri? > response.  Our scope is too broad in that we are "at war withq
 > terrorism."R  K It's interesting that GWB's initial reaction was the correct one:  he vowedrJ to "hunt down and punish those responsible" - using similar words again inL other statements.  Then after a couple of days mission-creep set in, and theI effort became a 'war on terrorism' rather the pursuit of justice - though*L the initial Congressional resolution still referred to those responsible for- the attack rather than this new, wider scope.   L I don't have any problem going after other provable terrorists as vigorouslyD as we can - within the normal bounds of human decency and reasonableJ legality, anyway.  But I do worry about the connotations of the term 'war'L when a lot of people - including some making early official statements, likeL Colin Powell - seem inclined to take it literally, and just now in his jointF statement and brief press conference with GWB French President JacquesH Chirac seemed to share such reservations even while otherwise expressing support.  L In the past couple of days the mission has threatened to creep even farther,K with Dubya talking about fighting against 'those who hate freedom'.  I hopetF that's just hyperbole on his part:  he never was that competent with aL phrase, and it may just sound good to him without reflecting a change in hisL intent.  To his credit, he continues usually to talk about 'bringing them toJ justice' (aside from the unfortunate 'dead or alive' reference yesterday).  6   If your country is a known safe haven for terroristsF > and/or sponsors terrorism at the state level, be very very concerned, > as the goal here is to wipe out terrorism.  I That's the kind of wild rhetoric that makes me ashamed you're an AmericantH and makes the rest of the world nervous.  Fortunately, it's beginning toL appear that despite some recent verbal excesses our leadership is a bit more	 rational.   J In the press conference just now, GWB continued to back-pedal a bit on theH use of mass conventional military force, saying that in this 'war' thereJ 'would be no beaches to storm, no islands to conquer' (and a third similarH but land-oriented sentiment that I've forgotten at the moment).  CNN had@ Bill Cohen - one of the individuals I most admire in recent U.S.K government - commenting immediately afterward, and he expressed the opinionnI that this phrasing was indeed meant to ratchet down expectations of overt E invasion as opposed to more covert and/or non-military activity.  AndiF Dubya's expressed intent to confer closely with Chirac and other worldJ leaders should ensure that he has access to whatever maturity of viewpointI he may lack himself:  he may not be the sharpest tack in the box, but hisoK heart is arguably in somewhere nearly the right place and he does appear tooE be willing to listen to advice (I just hope it's the *right* advice).t   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:55:31 GMTc3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>?+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleare/ Message-ID: <3BA7FADC.4473F483@cableinet.co.uk>-   Rob Young wrote:   O >         You got a cockroach problem?  You certainly don't ignore them.  Yeah, O >         maybe you live in a bad part of town or a bad flat/apartment and theycL >         keep coming back.  That doesn't mean you don't do your darndest toH >         eradicate the cockroaches AND if you get cooperation from yourN >         neighbors you bomb all the nests you rid the whole building of them.I >         Do they come back in a few months?   Maybe, maybe not, crank up ) >         the cockroach bombs if they do.'  "> you are making an analogy between cockroaches and human beings. which I would argue is not valid in this case.  a --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  e  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of t! my employers or service provider.b   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:55:46 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011255490001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <4lpeqtso6botc65dgsgo83e28ibviuvdsa@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:     C > Terrible as it was last Tuesday bore little relation to a nuclear H > attack. If you think it did I hope America does not have to experience! > the difference on her own soil.   H I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theJ happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently.   -- " Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com9   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:17:23 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center) Message-ID: <3BA7ABD3.838D252@virgin.net>a   Robert Deininger wrote:-  J > I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theL > happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently. >7  M Are you reading the same newsgroup I'm writing in? You are genuinely wrong, Ih am sorry you can't see that.   >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.comm   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:14:10 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F162.338799CE@fsi.net>s   Israel Raj T wrote:v > H > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:22:40 GMT, cjt & trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net> > wrote: > K > >We put most of these scumbags into business, bin Laden included.  Now we " > >have to correct those mistakes. > 5 > Start by correcting the "scumbags" in the US first.$   Namely ... ?   -- U David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:17:23 -0500=1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F223.830F50C3@fsi.net>    Alan Greig wrote:e > ? > On 17 Sep 2001 17:52:19 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordann > Henderson) wrote:- >  > >-: > >Sure.  I'm against it and I think it should be illegal. > >nJ > >Of course, there's a practical element to the appropriate response, no?J > >It's not like economic sanctions by the UK could possibly deprive thoseG > >US citizens of their ability to supporting the IRA, is it?  It wouldpF > >more likely be more damaging to the UK economy to attempt to impose > >sanctions on the US.  > G > And there is the US double standards. If the rest of the world thinks E > the US is in the wrong it can do nothing about it. Until eventually B > you have created so much hatred of the US that the WTC occurred.B > Saddam/Bin Laden could not have carried this out without a large; > number of followers who completely and utterly hate you. l  F You may be under-estimating the fanatics' cravings in their "quest forH glory". Hate is not a necessary element, it can even be synthesised from# nothing, if it is needed or wanted.t   -- s David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:20:29 -0500p1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F2DD.56BBA8B3@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > T > In article <9o6g8u$eqk$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > >iN > > Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feel theyN > > have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any whoP > > actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killing all ofO > > them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it.e > E >    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern and F >    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in >    South America.b  A To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment orc' support terrorism. Neither does Canada.    G >    When we get done nuking all these places, that leaves China as the  >    leading world power.c  9 Why? Since we didn't nuke ourselves, what happened to us?t   -- o David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:33:31 -0500h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F5EB.8C949617@fsi.net>    Alan Greig wrote:e > 9 > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:27:16 -0500, "David J. Dachtera")  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >  > >R > >uC > >Does Pakistan have ballistic missile submarines? We have them...  > F > Pakistan remains a Commonwealth country. We really don't want to getF > to the stage of it asking for help from Britain against a US attack.! > This is just getting silly now.w  H Why would Pakistan do that? When did we ever threaten them with anything. besides fallout (conventional, nuclear, etc.)?  hK > >The world had hoped that Japan would have been the example for all time.rI > >That impression was blown to hell last Wednesday. I put it to you that  > C > Terrible as it was last Tuesday bore little relation to a nuclear H > attack. If you think it did I hope America does not have to experience! > the difference on her own soil.2  B Yes, given the scale of destruction - remember, we talking about aE concrete canyon, not an expanse of land where the tallest building is9F less than five stories and largely made of little more than bricks andE mortar. We experienced the difference - underground and in the desertlG until above-ground testing was banned. When you strike back, you return1H fire with sufficient force to DETER your enemy, not just throw back what7 was sent. If the enemy persists, you must destroy them.c   Welcome to the real world, Neo.-  -A > >it's time for a reminder - with perhaps a bit of relish so then= > >impression will last longer than 55 or so years this time.  > 3 > I leave the above two lines to stand against you.t  F Nothing "against" at all. A simple statement of complacency that calls? for a re-awakening, lest we see another WTC (the twin towers inaG Malaysia, perhaps, eh?). Otherwise, give me an alternative that will bemD equally efficacious. Talking a line is one thing. Making it stick is something else entirely.  h1 > >So prophecy says. Let it be as the Lord wills.  > D > I leave the above line as well to stand without comment as none is	 > needed.   E Amen to that... Just understand that if nukes happen to be the Lord'snB will, He doesn't waste time with internet newsgroups like we do...   -- y David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/O   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:37:17 -0500-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F6CD.A8A749C7@fsi.net>n   Alan Greig wrote:  >  > Robert Deininger wrote:7 > L > > I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theN > > happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently. > >* > O > Are you reading the same newsgroup I'm writing in? You are genuinely wrong, Ia > am sorry you can't see that.  C Ummmm, IMHO, no, he isn't. I think you may need to examine your ownuE thoughts a bit deeper. You made a remark about denial, as I recall...c  H I'm giving up this thread - not just because Bill is retreating into hisH attitude again, I just don't like talking about all this. The thought ofA war sickens me, but I will face whatever challenge may lie ahead,  however unpleasant it may be.r   -- t David J. Dachtera' dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:38:29 -0500l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center' Message-ID: <3BA7F715.5DE9DD0D@fsi.net>    Bill Todd wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3BA6B1CA.588954A7@fsi.net...e >  > ...e > F > > Get clearer still on this: UN sanctions were imposed not to deposeL > > Saddam, but to force him to permit UN inspections in an effort to ensureA > > that the vanquished were not rebuilding their weapons of mass. > > destruction. > N > And since they're accomplishing that goal so perfectly, we couldn't possibly > consider changing them.r > M > (Incidentally, economic sanctions were originally imposed immediately afteryK > Kuwait was invaded as a punitive response.  They were then modified after L > Iraq was defeated to attempt to ensure compliance with multpile provisionsI > of the cease-fire agreements - including reparations to Kuwait, weaponstI > inspections and clean-up, etc.  But after a while the U.S. took it upongH > itself to ensure that they would persist until Saddam was ousted.  TryN > learning something about this subject before you presume to shoot your mouth
 > off again.)s >  > - bill   Sure, Carl, whatever you say...t   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT # From: GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <3BA823DB.887D69C5@malarkey.com>   Alan Greig wrote:t > ? > On 17 Sep 2001 14:58:08 -0400, jordan@lisa.gemair.com (Jordani > Henderson) wrote:p >  > >tP > >We have that right as long as they insist on contributing funds to terroristsQ > >and insist on creating weapons of mass destruction.  It's called self defense.  > C > The US has contributed funds to terrorists such as Saddam and Bine4 > Laden. The US creates weapons of mass destruction. > I > >I can only imagine the outrage, focussed on the US specifically, if wea< > >were to undertake unilateral measures to do these things. > D > I'm  not sure you will need to imagine it as I think that is where > Bush is heading step by step.  >  > >e > >s > >"not much funding at all"?a > >lO > >Let's see, Bin Laden had an inheritence of $300 Million.  Saddam contributescQ > >tens of millions.  Kudafy contributes millions.  Then, there are contributions M > >coming from all over the Arab world, including sizeable contributions from D > >many sympathizers in the Gulf States with considerable resources. > @ > If we are going to talk numbers could you also post the amount; > contributed by the US to Bin Laden prior to the Gulf War?" > J > >I'm not opposed to a thorough review of our foreign policy, but it mustI > >be done extremely discreetly with no obvious submission to the currenteF > >terrorist demands if we are to avoid future terrorism.  Lifting the > C > Agreed. You never "give in" to terrorists but you must review anytF > points they make that have widespread support among people who would* > not support terrorist action themselves. > A Would it be possible to confiscate Bin Ladens funds??  The SEC iscH investigating into those that knew in advance of the WTC and looking for; those who intended to sell short to make money off of this.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:52:38 GMTa# From: GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com>p( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <3BA82587.7B2A00E5@malarkey.com>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Alan Greig wrote:n > >r > > Robert Deininger wrote:i > >yN > > > I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theP > > > happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently. > > >h > >lQ > > Are you reading the same newsgroup I'm writing in? You are genuinely wrong, Ie  > > am sorry you can't see that. > E > Ummmm, IMHO, no, he isn't. I think you may need to examine your own G > thoughts a bit deeper. You made a remark about denial, as I recall...a > J > I'm giving up this thread - not just because Bill is retreating into hisJ > attitude again, I just don't like talking about all this. The thought ofC > war sickens me, but I will face whatever challenge may lie ahead,e > however unpleasant it may be.c >   D I agrea with you Dave.... I'd rather see a sneaky underhanded way ofD confiscating all of the terrorists funds so they can't afford to buyD the weapons.  Much more peaceful that way.  Hopefully, there will beE some sanity also with businesses or countries that rely on arms salessC to make a living and stop doing it.  But, I guess I live in a dream  world.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:07:16 +0200m& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center* Message-ID: <3BA82804.472DEC43@dplanet.ch>   Robert Deininger wrote:h > E > In article <4lpeqtso6botc65dgsgo83e28ibviuvdsa@4ax.com>, Alan Greigc > <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:c > E > > Terrible as it was last Tuesday bore little relation to a nuclearpJ > > attack. If you think it did I hope America does not have to experience# > > the difference on her own soil.o > J > I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theL > happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently. >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.coml  H This is an extension of the crazy attitude of "if you are not wih us you are against us".  E I found an interesting site about foreign intervention last night.  IsE must go back and find the quote from Mark Twain but one I do rememberdE from a senior clergyman was "If we provide food to starving people welE are heroes.  If we ask about the poicies that force them to starve wet are seen as communists."  F Parallel comments could apply to the people in this newsgroup that youC argue with.  They are urging caution, for proper investigation, forc> examination of all the facts, for proof to support some of the@ allegations floating around and all you can dois denigrate them.     John McLeans   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:15:44 -0400e' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>)( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o99j5$8rh$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA7F223.830F50C3@fsi.net...e > Alan Greig wrote:w   ...t  I > > And there is the US double standards. If the rest of the world thinksvG > > the US is in the wrong it can do nothing about it. Until eventuallyhD > > you have created so much hatred of the US that the WTC occurred.D > > Saddam/Bin Laden could not have carried this out without a large< > > number of followers who completely and utterly hate you. >iH > You may be under-estimating the fanatics' cravings in their "quest forJ > glory". Hate is not a necessary element, it can even be synthesised from% > nothing, if it is needed or wanted.   H That may be true.  It's possible to transmute elements, atom by atom, ifD you're foolish and wealthy enough to waste time and effort doing so.  H But every supposedly knowledgeable person on terrorism who I've heard orJ read this past week, including those with sentiments as rabidly hawkish asK any that have been aired here (e.g., one of the U.S. people interviewed forsJ the Australian 4 Corners piece referred to earlier voiced the opinion thatJ we should fight our way through Pakistan to get to Afghanistan rather thanE permit it to remain neutral), at one point or another has stated thatnA recruits tend to come to terrorism via other forms of grievances.c   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:21:00 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o99t4$9s5$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA7F2DD.56BBA8B3@fsi.net...- > Bob Koehler wrote: > > 8 > > In article <9o6g8u$eqk$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:: > > >eK > > > Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feeli theyL > > > have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any whoiK > > > actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killingl all ofJ > > > them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it. > >iG > >    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern andIH > >    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in > >    South America.o >eC > To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment or9) > support terrorism. Neither does Canada.   L The kinds of things some U.S. citizens like you and Rob have suggested couldG be considered realistic (though perhaps 'regrettable') options, such asnK turning Afghanistan into a heap of glowing rubble, qualify as 'raining downhL indiscriminate terror' in the minds of civilized people.  But I agree that I> don't know of any similar sentiments from North of our border.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:40:33 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o9b1m$c53$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA7F5EB.8C949617@fsi.net...  > Alan Greig wrote:r > >s; > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:27:16 -0500, "David J. Dachtera" " > > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > >j > > >f > > >eE > > >Does Pakistan have ballistic missile submarines? We have them...  > >eH > > Pakistan remains a Commonwealth country. We really don't want to getH > > to the stage of it asking for help from Britain against a US attack.# > > This is just getting silly now.t > J > Why would Pakistan do that? When did we ever threaten them with anything0 > besides fallout (conventional, nuclear, etc.)?  2 http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s368582.htm  L "Musharef is going to have to come down on one side or the other. I think ifJ he decides to resist our efforts to deal with Afghanistan. And our effortsF will involve at a minimum over-flights of Pakistan, conceivable movingL troops on the ground through Pakistan, then we're going to have to tell themI we're going to do it anyway if we have to fight our way across Pakistan."r  J Same interview I just referred to in another post.  He states clearly thatJ neutrality - normally considered reasonable for a state caught between twoG warring factions neither of which it completely agrees with - is not anmJ option for Pakistan.  Of course, this is only the *former* U.S. AmbassaborG for Counter-Terrorism, not a current official - but I think it at least ! helps justify Alan's observation.l  K As for your own comment, while Pakistan does not have nuclear submarines itmK does have nuclear weapons.  If we act so as to cause these to fall into thewH hands of those we've made sufficiently angry with us by, say, sending anB invasion force through the country against its wishes (here's thatH cause-and-effect thing again), we could conceivably see them used in, orL just off the coast of, one or more of our major cities:  perhaps you weren'tF around for the 'quiet man with a heavy suitcase' scenarios in the '50sK before missile delivery systems became popular, but I remember them all too2K well.  Pakistan does not need England's help to be a threat if we mishandle: it sufficiently.  K That's not the right road to start down.  It's beginning to sound as if ournJ government may be starting to understand that, but it's important that the rest of us do as well.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:00:19 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o9c6p$ctp$1@pyrite.mv.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA7F6CD.A8A749C7@fsi.net...    ...   J > I'm giving up this thread - not just because Bill is retreating into hisJ > attitude again, I just don't like talking about all this. The thought ofC > war sickens me, but I will face whatever challenge may lie ahead,e > however unpleasant it may be.r  L As I've said on other occasions, my attitude very often reflects that in theG post I'm responding to - and in your particular case your posts vary ins' 'attitude' as least as much as mine do.i  G However, this example should hit very close to home in this discussion,rK because it's at least in some aspects a very similar problem to the 'bigger-F hammer' approach to terrorism.  In both cases, simple escalation often doesn't work well if at all.  F My impression is that some people here feel that their righteous angerL obviates the need for paying careful attention to the actual content they'reL supposedly responding to.  When that happens, it's to some degree natural toF raise the volume level to one that will actually be heard - but if theI problem lies in the listener rather than in the volume per se I guess allo# that does is raise the temperature.   I We've had a week of intense discussion here, but it's not clear that much H actual communication has occurred.  I hope our countries' leaders can do better.n   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:47:00 GMTh% From: Jim Valley <jim_v50@NOSPAM.com>s+ Subject: Question: Limiting Processor Usagei: Message-ID: <Xns91218AF0981Ajimv50NOSPAMcom@140.99.99.130>  
 Hello all,  M Is there any way I can limit the PERCENTAGE of processor used by a process?  e  I I have a process that spikes every couple of minutes while it performs a tH query, but I'd like to limit it to use only 10% of the processor at any  given time.a   Thanks and kind regards,   Jims   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 12:53:16 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e# Subject: Re: Re-direction of outputw3 Message-ID: <J74x6zf0riPv@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  T In article <KPmVmVHO3RoG@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:k > In article <3BA77216.A2649855@unnecessary.csc.com>, Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com> writes:h. >> The results of show log/full/all are below: >> l! >> $ sho log /full/all sys$output D >>    "SYS$OUTPUT" [super,confine] = "_DSA205:" [concealed,terminal] >> (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  >> $ sho log /full/all sys$errorD >>    "SYS$ERROR" [exec] = "_DSA205:" [terminal] (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) >> $ sho log /full/all tte > I > In case you missed the post to which you just responded, $ SHOW LOGICALi > runs an image.  E Of course LOGINOUT is also an image, run to set up DCL for a process.y. It runs down before your DCL commands execute.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:24:46 GMT # From: GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com>i* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?, Message-ID: <3BA81EFF.4C88A149@malarkey.com>   Jerry Leslie wrote:i > + >   http://www.theinquirer.net/18090105.htmy& >   Linux on Alpha heads for the gulag  	 Hi Jerry,t  C I've been away for a bit... what is the current fate/situation withe VMS??1   Wayne1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:53:38 -0400c2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011253480001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  E In article <39reqtg29v53s2a6t3cv52bad9se56ftfi@4ax.com>, Israel Raj Tr" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:    G > Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations in the world, aroundyF > 7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )E > are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members dislikea- > the US, there is something seriously wrong.   I There are few people on the planet who hate the U.S. as much as Chomsky. lI He will do or say anything that he perceives as harming this country.  He G was, and may still be, a great linguist.  His political discourse isn'ttF taken seriouly by any except lefist wackos and fellow America-haters. ) Like you, judging from your recent posts.w   -- y Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com-   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:33:01 -0700 (PDT).. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) @ Message-ID: <20010918183301.31703.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>  % The world dont hate the americans.=20.. They hate the IMF - wrong target last week!!!!     Regardss   FC=20 3 --- Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:p/ > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400, Jim Agnewu > <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>n > wrote:2 > >same here...  we really need to go in with foot > infantry or really,t8 > >really smart weapons, and take the terrorists out.=20 >=20 >=20/ > No, the US need to sit down and talk to otheri > countries.5 > Perhaps then they will begin to understand why theyr > are now the most > hated country in the world.s >=205 > Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations ins > the world, aroundf3 > 7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and ap > couple of others )5 > are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATOo > members dislikeu- > the US, there is something seriously wrong.t >=20% > Terroism is a hydra headed monster.j# > Cut off one head and 9 more grow.m6 > Remember when the Munich Olympics massacre was a big > deal ?2 > Remember the days when Abu Nidal was the big bad
 > terrorist ?y. > Terrorists seem to become worse by orders of > magnitude... >=20	 > Read=20o > http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm > for a few free clues.  >=205 > It has the Chomsky and the Fisk articles on line asj > well as some other > excellent pieces.g     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D9L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D@ F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilh fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Du  2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?n) Donate cash, emergency relief informationm7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/f   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:15:13 -0400s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011615150001@user-2iveai2.dialup.mindspring.com>  F In article <20010918183301.31703.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio) Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:   ' > The world dont hate the americans.=20l0 > They hate the IMF - wrong target last week!!!!  , Lots of Americans don't like the IMF either.   -- h Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:34:17 GMT ) From: baba_booey@hotmail.com (Baba Booey) M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) % Message-ID: <3ba80268.161385678@news>u  D Oh my god are you in the US?  If so remember that this country givesF you one thing your Arab countries don't, the right to talk the way youF do about them.  If you do that in your precious Arab countries you getA you head wacked off.  If you are in the US and you don't like it,sE LEAVE!!!!  We are not the blame for being attacked by extremist.  ButSB we are the ones to be blamed for the death of bin Laden and Sadam.E Also if you wanna say this is the price to pay for being friends withsE Isreal then I say fine, at least they are half way civilized.  If you B are not in the US then find you way to Kabul and see just how weak( this country is.  Baba Booey to you all.  . On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:58:02 GMT, Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:  B >On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> >wrote:hE >>same here...  we really need to go in with foot infantry or really,a6 >>really smart weapons, and take the terrorists out.   > 9 >No, the US need to sit down and talk to other countries.eE >Perhaps then they will begin to understand why they are now the mostH >hated country in the world. >nF >Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations in the world, aroundE >7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )bD >are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members dislike, >the US, there is something seriously wrong. >i$ >Terroism is a hydra headed monster." >Cut off one head and 9 more grow.< >Remember when the Munich Olympics massacre was a big deal ?= >Remember the days when Abu Nidal was the big bad terrorist ?r: >Terrorists seem to become worse by orders of magnitude... >r >Read  >http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htmw >for a few free clues. >tG >It has the Chomsky and the Fisk articles on line as well as some others >excellent pieces.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:00:56 GMTa. From: Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au>M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )-8 Message-ID: <8j9gqtcimf23km97710ulbi72vvmo42fde@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:34:17 GMT, baba_booey@hotmail.com (Baba Booey)  wrote:  E >Oh my god are you in the US?  If so remember that this country givesoG >you one thing your Arab countries don't, the right to talk the way youA >do about them.    No, I am Australia.h4 Havent you learned how to read message headers yet ?   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2001 00:10:08 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)v> Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?, Message-ID: <9o8np0$sqe@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  = In article <cf15391e.0109180819.1f16c257@posting.google.com>,n2 Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote: >iD >In the CETS2001 session on "Porting OpenVMS Applications to Itanium, >Processor Family" there was a slide saying: >oE >  - All compilers should be able to deal with F, D, G, S, T and X (Si >and T are native IEEE formats)       What, no H floating?    -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:43:05 -0400s2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: We are back from CETS1 Message-ID: <IkOp7.324$YP.11096@news.cpqcorp.net>a   Dear Newsgroup,M  % Thank you very much for your concern.   K I just wanted to let you know that everyone from the VMS group that went tom1 CETS are fine (in my opinion they are wonderful).g  I There was obvious sorrow and sadness expressed by everyone in attendance,n0 but also determination to continue which we did.  E All Compaq employees  were given the option of not doing our sessionsaH because of the crisis last week  All the VMS people stayed and did their	 sessions.g  G For Mark Gorham's session there was standing room only and folks seemed  happy with the session.   , I would be very interested in your feedback.  
 Warm Regards,e   Sueu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:15:37 +0200d& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>" Subject: Re: We are back from CETS* Message-ID: <3BA829F9.CDF129D0@dplanet.ch>   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Dear Newsgroup,t > ' > Thank you very much for your concern.r > M > I just wanted to let you know that everyone from the VMS group that went to 3 > CETS are fine (in my opinion they are wonderful).e > K > There was obvious sorrow and sadness expressed by everyone in attendance,w2 > but also determination to continue which we did. > G > All Compaq employees  were given the option of not doing our sessionsnJ > because of the crisis last week  All the VMS people stayed and did their > sessions.o > I > For Mark Gorham's session there was standing room only and folks seemedt > happy with the session.t > . > I would be very interested in your feedback. >  > Warm Regards,c >  > Suei  E Can you please point me at a website for information from CETS ?  Not0C all of us were able to get there.  I for one would be interested to G learn about the VMS to IP stuff that was supposed to be fleshed out, or & was that obscured by the HP issues ??    thanks,    John McLean6   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 13:45:35 -07001 From: Alex.Feliziani@space.gc.ca (Alex Feliziani)vF Subject: What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0???????= Message-ID: <f4436989.0109181245.4dc42184@posting.google.com>a  D I have created a user account using ADDUSER.COM . I can actually logC in but i cannot open a Dec Term once i log into the account neither E run other applications. I tried running LOGIN.COM from the user.payne C directory and it worked fine but it seems to be that it doesn't runeE when i actually log into the account. Can anyone help??? Thank you in,	 advance!!p   Alex Feliziani
 Test Engineero CSA    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:52:24 GMTu  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>J Subject: Re: What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0???????8 Message-ID: <qdgfqtkpmgctn9mtga9an8q83t42qfmhv2@4ax.com>  @ Have you created an x-windows display for the process creating a DECterm?  @ Actually, are you doing this from DCL (using the CREATE/TERMINALC command) or are you doing it from the Decwindows/Motif menu system?n  9 What version of VMS?  What version of Decwindows?  Motif?-   jls-? On 18 Sep 2001 13:45:35 -0700, Alex.Feliziani@space.gc.ca (Alexb Feliziani) wrote:g  E >I have created a user account using ADDUSER.COM . I can actually logiD >in but i cannot open a Dec Term once i log into the account neitherF >run other applications. I tried running LOGIN.COM from the user.payneD >directory and it worked fine but it seems to be that it doesn't runF >when i actually log into the account. Can anyone help??? Thank you in
 >advance!! >l >Alex Felizianih >Test Engineer >CSA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:25:30 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> J Subject: Re: What file executes the Login.com file for vax-vms v6.0???????, Message-ID: <3BA81E2B.B697C124@videotron.ca>   Alex Feliziani wrote:e/ > I tried running LOGIN.COM from the user.payne/E > directory and it worked fine but it seems to be that it doesn't runa( > when i actually log into the account.   K Are you sure that the authorize database is configured to execute that filee for that user ?l   $SET DEF SYS$SYSTEMi $MC AUTHORIZE SHOW <username>o   The important fields are r DEFAULT: device:[directory]n
 LGICMD: LOGINl  O So, when you login, it is tantamount to executing: @device:[directory]login.com   G Note that the "DEFAULT" is actually 2 fields. You can modify them with:tH AUTHORIZE> MOD username/DEVICE=device /DIRECTORY=directory /LGICMD=login  H Often on a system, the "device" is a logical name.  If you login to that username, you should do:; 	SHOW DEF -> will tell you where your default directory is.eC 	DIR/SEC LOGIN.COM 	->will tell you if you have access to login.com   V Also, you should make sure that the username has read access to his default directory.P from a privileged account: $SET FILE device:[000000]directory.DIR/owner=username   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:43:13 -0400y5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>t Subject: Re: World Trade Centern2 Message-ID: <joanO=JAWRVg53ihZR+VXC4Ly9tv@4ax.com>  . On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:49:07 GMT, Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:  / >On 18 Sep 2001 15:43:37 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggens9 ><jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:e >e9 >>David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:s# >>>     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?aK >>The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A'sw >>chief executive? >o >No. >He is just the chief redneck.  2     Nice piece of logic there.  Pres. Bush is from1 America and all Americans are rednecks, therefore- Pres. Bush is a redneck.  5     ... or how about Pres. Bush is from Texas and alld. Texans are rednecks, therefore Pres. Bush is a redneck.  5     As one Ayn Rand would say, "Check your premises."h  8     It would be interesting to see what your response is$ if terrorists ever attack Australia.   David R. Beattyr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:43:32 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1709011143320001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y44rq2w2n7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  6 > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  J > > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validG > > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it hastL > > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aF > > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > > appropriate response.    >  > Have you ever raised a child?l  H No, but what does that have to do with anything?  Shall we look for someH child-like innocence in the attackers, and make appropriate allowances? 7 Please explain what raising children has to do with it.n   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:53:01 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenterrL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1709011153010001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <3v0cqt44nmbgatsifpk58jjh28r63e7v64@4ax.com>, Alan Greigc <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:o     > But George Bush said:1E > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41157-2001Sep16.htmly > G > "This *crusade*, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while," heoH > told reporters after his return to the White House. But, he vowed, "we' > will rid the world of the evil-doers"t >  > www.dictionary.com > crusade (kr-sd) > n.  F > often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by EuropeanF > Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy > Land from the Muslims. w- > A holy war undertaken with papal sanction. eD > A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See > Synonyms at campaign.  > H > [French croisade, and Spanish cruzada both ultimately from Latin crux, > cruc-, cross.] > -------------------s > F > Delusional or not Rob's right on the mark with his interpretation of> > Bush's plans. I doubt the UK will go along with a 'crusade'.  D Now you're predicting Bush's plans on the basis of a single (perhaps poorly-chosen) word?  F I'm beginning to realize that you'll put the worst face on anything an= American says or does.  This latest doesn't surprise me much.S   -- I Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:01:45 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center:L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1709011201450001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <877kuycawx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:  + > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:u > B > > Terrorists were reportedly operating within the U.S. for yearsH > > planning the WTC attack.  We didn't have a clue - but I guess you'reF > > saying that it's still Florida's fault and we should bomb the hell > > out of it anyway?o > D > Yes, but am I the only one who finds it odd that so much eviedenceC > turns up in a few hours? Only thing missing is a "Read Me" label.uA > Mind, nuking Florida would improve the area in many opinions :)3  @ Yes, all this evidence found so quickly has bothered me from theI beginning.  Too much like a novel.  I wonder if some of it is planted, tol( throw suspicion in the  wrong direction.  G Some of the finds sound like the book "How I did it" in the movie Youngo
 Frankenstein.N  G From what I've heard, the authorities aren't _doing_ anything rash withrI the evidence.  Just rounding up more suspects, with more than their usualw vigor.   -- n Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:51:59 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenteryL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1709011252000001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com>  / In article <3BA6243F.55111B86@cableinet.co.uk>,a$ tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk wrote:     I > no, more a realist:-), Interesting article in the Independent suggested H > that goading the US into military intevention in the middle east wouldH > be one of the only ways to topple pro-western rule in Saudi etc, which > is Bin LAden's stated goal.  > 8 > Is it true internal news in the USA is being censored?  0 That would be essentially impossible to acheive.  F The government is known to keep information to itself, or even put outJ deliberately false information from time to time.  But once someone in theJ media  gets hold of something, there's no way to stop them from publishingI it.  Sometimes the government _asks_ the media to withhold something, butt it rarely happens.  E There have been lots of looney internet conspiracies about suppressed=G news, from the usual wackos.  There seems to be no supporting evidence.a  H The U.S. media is mostly unfriendly to the current administration.  TheyH might tone down their dislike for a short time after last weeks events. ' But they won't stop reporting the news.r  F Of course, with the internet, if we _were_ censored in the U.S., you'd: send the news back from England, and we'd get it that way.  E In ordinary situations, some of the English papers are noticably moree5 accurate and less biased than many major U.S. papers.o   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:56:30 -0400C5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Center 2 Message-ID: <QYinO72VIybX3OupXHSVjh4rJxI0@4ax.com>  D On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:39:33 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:   >  >t >David Beatty wrote: >> -	 >> <snip>a >> n >> >J >> >No but the US should start to behave like a good citizen of the globalJ >> >village and take steps to reduce the favouritism and arrogance in many" >> >foreign and domestic policies. >> p? >>     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat ally@ >> foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Do< >> you really want to put those countries that oppress their; >> citizens on an equal footing with those that allow their : >> citizens more freedom?  Think about the implications of >> that choice.n >-G >I am well aware of the mplications of what I am saying and I put it to9@ >you that persuadng countries be less oppressive through variousF >inducements is a far more effective way of creating long-term peace. F >It's hearts-and-minds stuff, something that the US is not always keen >on.  D     When you put it that way, I have no disagreement.  However, someA governments have shown time and again that they don't care about :A freedom or individual rights.  China, many Arab, and some African:" countries fall into that category.  I >Are you saying that Palestine should *not* be treated the same as Israelm& >?  If so, please tell me exactly why.  E     Not while Arafat is head of the PLO.  He has shown time and againg that he is not to be trusted.t   >>  I >> >This is not simply a military thing either.  The Kyoto Agreement is a.H >> >good example of where the USA effectively told the rest of the worldJ >> >that it didn't care what damage US polution did to the environment andI >> >to global warming.  This is not the hallmark of a good citizen of thec >> >global village.i >> wC >>     The Kyoto protocol was effectively killed by the U.S. SenateIC >> three years ago, President Bush simply and rightly put the final  >> nail in the coffin. >> BE >>     While the surface record has shown an increase in temperature,rF >> satellite data, weather ballon data, and proxy data (tree rings andC >> ice thinkness) have not.  Why do you suppose that is and what dod, >> you think the most likely explanation is? >yF >I thought the variation in climate was an aberration and I sneered atA >the people who thought the weather averages implied some kind ofiH >committment to deliver, but the problem is that the aberration has been% >happening for the last 6 or 8 years.n  F     Climate changes.  6-8 years out of billions does not make a trend.  # >Abnormal rainfalls and snowfalls -rB >much higher and much lower than the averages - has been the norm.  F     In what locations and by how much?  Is this outside what one might) expect from normal statistical variation?.   >Ozone= >layers have seriously diminished in the southern hemisphere.   (     Ozone layers are cyclical in nature.  
 >ExcessiveG >warming is melting the glaciers in Europe and in Iceland.  The climate:2 >in most parts of the world has seriously changed.  B     Yes, climate changes.  The glaciers have been melting for 150 + years, since the end of the Little Ice Age.-  I >US scientists were (IIRC) some of the first to warn about global warminga8 >and yet the US is refusing to take precautionary steps.  ;     U.S. scientists can be just as fallible as anyone else.q  H >> >Just because the USA is the biggest kid on the block it doesn't mean- >> >that it shoul dforget to act responsibly.  >> yE >>     No arguement there.  Despite the U.S. mistakes, I think you'llo? >> find this country acts more responsibly that many would haveA >> you believe.  > G >The problem appears to be that the USA does not know when to intervene?G >and when not to.  They should intervene in Israel-Palestine and shouldmH >have done in Rwanda but there are plenty of cases when they should have >stayed well out.  >aE >Take a look at http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/ for a number ofcI >articles about this, especially Stephen Zume's article entitled "Thoughtp0 >Not Vengance" and Michael Klare's "Asking Why". >s  D     I'll have to look into this site's articles when I have a little
 more time.   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:05:12 -0400T2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center@L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011205290001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  N In article <3ba6a3e1.20248996@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz wrote:    E > New Zealand contributes to these escapades but has not yet been thee* > target of an attack by fundamentalists.   H NZ just walked away from its treaty obligations to the US.  I'm sorry toJ report that that seems to have generated a LOT of bad feeling here, and itD won't soon be forgotten.  In a sense, you've already surrendered.  IE truely hope none of your thuggish neighbors cast a greedy eye in youreE direction.  Your government has spit on one of your best friends, andi@ we'll likely be slow to answer the phone the next time you call.  F The main thing preventing a boycott of goods from NZ is that folks areC having trouble identifiying what you send us. Kiwi fruits have beene< suggested, but AFAIK, they are mostly home-grown these days.   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:22:02 -0400g2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011222060001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <ml3eqt86v1pgll5v8vhg0dtjo451rcf35k@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:)  1 > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:33:31 GMT, Tim Llewellyns( > <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> wrote: >  > >aI > >plausible, but wasn't that the plane where the passengers fought back?o > G > It's the plane where that theory has been put about yes and, it mightVE > be true, but there are a lot of inconsistencies with that scenario.e   Please name them, rumor-monger.a  H Families of at least 3-4 passengers reported that they received news theH passengers planned to attack the terrorists.  These reports came out theB first day, long before the families could have gotten together and concocted the story.   -- o Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comM   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:30:07 -0400y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenteraL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011230170001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  / > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:c > N > >       You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewI > >       with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.tF > >       OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesM > >       not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.l > E > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.e   We???   I Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItiE sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.g   -- c Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:32:34 -0400y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CentertL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011232510001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y43d5klily.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  9 > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:o > # > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?t > K > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's  > chief executive?  I The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someone as clueless as youhI knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childish insults across theh pond.    -- r Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:36:30 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011236460001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <gvkeqtkihkrbupghi3aclu3tmtuaku05t9@4ax.com>, Alan Greigi <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:   2 > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:15:23 -0400, David Beatty+ > <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:i >  > @ > >above, initial support was from an anti-Communist perspectiveB > >and unfortunately not from a pro-freedom perspective.  I'm also@ > >not saying that U.S. foreign policy has been perfect, either.> > >However, U.S. foreign policy mistakes are far outweighed by > >wins. >  > Are they though?    A Well, the U.K. still exists, and that's been a U.S. goal for manydH decades.  Despite you and a few other America-haters over there, I still consider that a win.   -- l Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:47:11 -0400	2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenterhL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011247160001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <qjjeqtcinnni4dcchsgqakukfi6bvhcvq0@4ax.com>, Alan Greig- <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:u    B > They knew other aircraft (including that one) were involved longF > before it was shot down. That was the plane with the most cell callsF > and airphone calls. Including from the attorney general's wife.  TheD > plane also contacted ATC and requested an air corridor to New YorkE > saying they were accepting the demands and returning to the airportmF > according to other reports. Then we get even murkier but it seems itC > switched its transponder back on and that showed the FMC had beennH > switched to JFK. Shortly after it veered off again and the transponderE > was again switched off.  It then disappeared from the skies shortly. > after.   You've gotten it muddled.m  J You've also started stating "it was shot down" without any indication thatH this is, at most, a rumor.  You seem to be doing your part to spread the$ rumor far and wide.  Not a surprise.  J Barbara Olsen, wife of the Solictor General (not the Attny General) was onF the plane that hit the Pentagon.  She talked to her husband (at least)I twice, and among other thinks asked him to advise the pilot (still alive,3 but subdued) what to do.  H Eyewitness account have the Pentagon plane circling above the city for a2 while before heading to the Pentagon and crashing.  G The Pennsylvania plane electronically filed a change of flight plan, to.J Washington DC, I believe.  Probably nobody knows who did this, since thereC was no voice.  My memory may be wrong, it could have been New York.w  H The passengers on this plane spoke to relatives and some law-enforcementH folks.  One thing they reported about the hijacking was that at the timeI of the initial diversion (heading west, changed to east) the "pilot" said G they were obeying the hijackers demands.  I assume this was designed to F keep the passengers quiet.  From reports I saw, this was quite a while before the crash.t  H I also read reports of various games played with the transponders on the hijacked planes.   -- a Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:02:33 -0400i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center:L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011302430001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  D In article <3BA77A28.81EB68F3@dplanet.ch>, mcleanj@dplanet.ch wrote:    I > No Jan, a lot of people in the USA are still busy living out the cowboyxH > westerns of the 1950's.  (A reversion to childhood ideas ?)  They wantJ > to form a posse and hunt bin Laden down.  Wanted Dead or Alive.  If he'sC > alive we'll try him and then hang him.  Maybe it really is just ai > lynch-mob that we are seeing.h  D Have you ever been to the U.S., asshole?  Recently?  Spend much timeI here?  You act like you know the people, but your words prove that you do  not.  F You take cheap shots at an entire nation, based on what you see on TV?  I > Underlying it all is their infallible (or infantile) righteousness that G > they couldn't have possibly done anything to make people angry.  Theyc> > believe such an idea to be to preposterous to contemplate.    J Wrong.  It appears you've just described a typical European mentality, but/ then I'm only going by what I read in the news.-  -G > There's a few sane voices but they are being drowned out by those whotE > just want to shoot or bomb something somewhere and to hell with the  > possible consequences.   Wrong.  G > A web petition asking Bush to show restraint and think hard before heo+ > acts can be found in several languages aty# > http://www.findefux.de/petition/.s   So?    --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:20:24 +01001% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i Subject: Re: World Trade Centern* Message-ID: <3BA79E78.2054B0FF@virgin.net>   Paul Repacholi wrote:1  ) > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:> > E > > It is thought that the hijackers on most of the planes pulled thep- > > circuit-breakers on the flight recorders.@ >.H > Would not matter, the FDRs have a inbuild power supply. Power failures4 > are one of the key items in interpreting the data. >aE > The CVR is another issue, many of them CAN be shut off or bypassed.u >a  E I was specifically thinking of the CVR yes but are you sure about thehJ FDRs? How long would one operate on internal power if isolated from a main
 power bus? --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:19:33 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenternL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1809011219370001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>, Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:o    H > I notice Cheney has now stated that permission to shoot down was givenH > at 9:40am ("immediately after the Pentagon attack") but has not statedH > that it actually happened. The plane crashed at 10:10am. AF-1 took offG > at 9:50am. The FBI were asked  by journalists if they were ruling out1G > a shoot-down. The response: "No". Some UK agencies have reported thatR@ > the task of this airliner was believed to be to land on top ofE > Airforce One at Edwards Air  Base if possible. That's why it was solC > much later than the others, Wait until the president returns to ae$ > known spot at a known time then...  J The order, as reported, was to shoot down planes near Washington, DC, onlyG if they would not obey orders to go away.  This order still stands, anduI has been widely reported.  Ronald Reagan (Washington National) airport ist closed until further notice.  > The plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was never anywhere nearF Washington.  It was coming from the midwest, having turned around well into its journey.i  F The military did _initially_ decline to rule out a shoot-down.  Within. about a day, they came back and said "no way".  D > The UK Sunday Times supported the shoot down scenario pointing outH > phone calls, eyewitness accounts and the fact that "wreckage was foundC > in two widely separated areas" The plane was on fire according to H > ground witnesses as it came down. Other possibility would be a bomb on  > board but that seems unlikely.  G The "wreckage" found far from the main crash has been said to be paper,sI plastic, insulation fluff, etc.  Light stuff probably carried a few milest by the wind.  I The terrorists did (according to passenger phone calls) _claim_ to have atI bomb in a "red box".  But I tend to think they were bluffing.  Getting onbC the plane with a bomb in carry-on luggage is much riskier than just-J walking on with a small knife.  It would have put thier main goal at risk, so I doubt they brought a bomb.1  G It's also possible that the passengers managed to decompress the cabin,jH which can cause clouds of condensation (looks like smoke) and might dropI debris.  But this is considered hard to do.  The doors are held closed byc the cabin pressure.    -- B Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.com>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:22:08 +0100>% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>f Subject: Re: World Trade Center * Message-ID: <3BA79EE0.64A4A1C2@virgin.net>   Martin Knoblauch wrote:   D I am not an expert, but it is hard to believe that you could do that   > from within a flying plane...u >a  I For safety reasons (amongst other things) you can isolate most electricalo% equipment from within a flying plane.c --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:01:31 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centers* Message-ID: <3BA7A81B.4BD535B3@virgin.net>   Robert Deininger wrote:a  E > In article <ml3eqt86v1pgll5v8vhg0dtjo451rcf35k@4ax.com>, Alan GreigsK > <Families of at least 3-4 passengers reported that they received news the J > passengers planned to attack the terrorists.  These reports came out theD > first day, long before the families could have gotten together and > concocted the story. >m > --  J I've seen all these reports and I applaud the passengers. I'm just hearingK they've been honoured as well. But I also saw the wife of one say "I'm surehL they got into the cockpit but by that time it was just  too late".  The mostK unpleasant scenario involves an attempt to regain control causing the planen8 to make a rapid course change *triggering* a shoot down.  D You could not blame anyone for that. I just wish someone would stateJ categorically and absolutely that it was not shot down rather than leave a question mark.   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:06:10 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centern* Message-ID: <3BA7A931.7753566F@virgin.net>   Robert Deininger wrote:   E > In article <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>, Alan Greig>  H > The military did _initially_ decline to rule out a shoot-down.  Within0 > about a day, they came back and said "no way". >   L You would think they would know sooner. As of Sunday the FBI still would notG rule out the shoot down option. I have not seen an FBI statement since.h  I > It's also possible that the passengers managed to decompress the cabin,eJ > which can cause clouds of condensation (looks like smoke) and might dropK > debris.  But this is considered hard to do.  The doors are held closed by. > the cabin pressure.  >   
 Could fit.   >    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:12:22 +0100h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: World Trade Centerv* Message-ID: <3BA7AAA5.F71A5987@virgin.net>   Robert Deininger wrote:   L > You've also started stating "it was shot down" without any indication that  5 That was a mistake. I should have said "it came down"l   >:J > this is, at most, a rumor.  You seem to be doing your part to spread the& > rumor far and wide.  Not a surprise. >5  I I'm only asking. Your FBI refused to rule it out. Go accuse them of being)/ unpatriotic and spreading rumours far and wide.    >yL > Barbara Olsen, wife of the Solictor General (not the Attny General) was onH > the plane that hit the Pentagon.  She talked to her husband (at least) >s  / I corrected that very shortly after posting it.u   --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:15:42 +0100I% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd* Message-ID: <3BA7AB6E.AE47882E@virgin.net>   Robert Deininger wrote:o   > Ik > C > Well, the U.K. still exists, and that's been a U.S. goal for manylJ > decades.  Despite you and a few other America-haters over there, I still > consider that a win. >e  J I don't hate America by any stretch of the imagination. Try reading what I say.   >  > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.com    --
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:40:28 -0400l' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterB( Message-ID: <9o8bd4$hmf$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagenF news:rdeininger-1709011201450001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com...   ...n  B > Yes, all this evidence found so quickly has bothered me from theK > beginning.  Too much like a novel.  I wonder if some of it is planted, toe* > throw suspicion in the  wrong direction. >sI > Some of the finds sound like the book "How I did it" in the movie Younga > Frankenstein.s >eI > From what I've heard, the authorities aren't _doing_ anything rash withnK > the evidence.  Just rounding up more suspects, with more than their usuale > vigor.  C Unfortunately, when a country is as powerful and, in many opinions,tI unpredictble as we are, rash statements can have the destructive force of G acts.  In this case, while it's understandable that we might think thate@ talking tough with the Afghans might make actual military actionK unnecessary, it has already caused a massive and frantic exodus of refugees < to occur - a process that always results in misery or worse.  F There was no clear need to do this before more solid evidence had beenK obtained.  Should it turn out that bin Laden was *not* directly involved iniI the WTC attack, we will be responsible for the effects of our impatience.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:50:05 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>4 Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr( Message-ID: <9o8bv6$i02$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagetF news:rdeininger-1809011205290001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com...I > In article <3ba6a3e1.20248996@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz  wrote: >  >hG > > New Zealand contributes to these escapades but has not yet been thee+ > > target of an attack by fundamentalists.i >o< > NZ just walked away from its treaty obligations to the US.  G As an expert on such matters, then, would you be so kind as to post the J treaty paragraphs that require it to support without demur whatever insaneK actions the U.S. might choose to take in response to an attack by something-K other than an identifiable nation?  It would help the Doubting Thomases outi) here get a better grasp on the situation.j     I'm sorry toL > report that that seems to have generated a LOT of bad feeling here, and it > won't soon be forgotten.  K Hell, let's attack NZ while we're at it:  anyone who ain't with us is agin'n us.h  )   In a sense, you've already surrendered.:  I In a sense, it's we who have surrendered.  So much for the rule of law ind our relations with others.     IMG > truely hope none of your thuggish neighbors cast a greedy eye in youriG > direction.  Your government has spit on one of your best friends, and B > we'll likely be slow to answer the phone the next time you call.  E Just how many such calls have we received from NZ over, say, the pasth century?  L They may be small, but we seem to have valued their support as a friend manyI times.  The lack of it this time should tell us something - oh, I forgot:T *nobody* tells *us* how to act.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:57:00 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterR( Message-ID: <9o8cc4$i8v$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagelF news:rdeininger-1809011230170001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com...J > In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:   ...   G > > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.v >a > We???s >gK > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItaG > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.s  K Again, being the expert, could you post the relevant treaty paragraphs thatiC require NATO partners to give the U.S. carte blanche to decide what  reactions are appropriate?  H I find it reassuring that most of Europe (and the rest of the world, forJ that matter), while steadfast in their sympathy, seem a bit concerned withH the rash talk coming out of our leadership.  You should find it at leastF something worth thinking about:  we hardly have such a track record of> infallibility that *everyone* else is likely to be dead wrong.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:59:22 -0400i' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>r Subject: Re: World Trade Centern( Message-ID: <9o8cgi$i9e$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:IxXmkzy$aT3F@eisner.encompasserve.org...yJ > In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,I Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:i1 > > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  > >iI > >> You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interview D > >> with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.A > >> OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he does1H > >> not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are. > >sG > > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.  > >y >e > What are you even suggesting?o  L He's saying that this is what you and others here have been suggesting, Rob.E If you've forgotten many of your more genocidal sentiments, just looka" through your 'sent items' mailbox.      How many countries are weI > occupying today with troops forceably restraining the local population?  > F > Do you even think I or the vast majority of my fellow citizens would/ > even support random indiscriminate killing oft > another people as a policy?   J Yes, because you've said so, very clearly.  You've talked about wiping outC entire populations as justiable in order to get whatever current orf. potential future terrorists may be among them.  %    Trot out Vietnam.  We still recalloC > the "Mi Lai" (sp?) massacre.  I think you would at least agree weiD > value human life far more than the folks that bought those one-way
 > tickets.  J You haven't given any reason for us to think so, at least where human life; in another country and/or of another religion is concerned.,   >aF > It's about justice.  Not revenge.  And our leader's sense of justice, > may not be appealing to you.  That's fine.  K No, it's not, because both terms have at least fairly well-defined meaningst( that are *not* simply a matter of taste.  I Justice, among other things, has a basis in law and the concept of proof.eK For example, the suggestion that we have the right to invade Afghanistan tomL extract someone we want to try because they have the temerity to demand someH kind of proof of probable guilt before expelling him from the country is neither just nor legal.h   > H > > There was a time when the old testament ("an eye for an eye") was anH > > improvement in human relations (blood feuds and all that). I tend toF > > think we have improved things somewhat in the past three millenia. >aE > So how do you explain WWI?  WWII?  The Holocaust?  Are you skippinge@ > the latter half of the 20th century?  How about Stalin killing> > 20 million of his own?  Far more vicious than much that took@ > place in WWII.  It's all about wickedness and evil.  Something$ > we can't "talk" or "educate" away.  F Not as long as we're willing to do far worse than those we claim to be after.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:06:27 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l Subject: Re: World Trade Centerg( Message-ID: <9o8ctr$iia$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-1809011302430001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com...F > In article <3BA77A28.81EB68F3@dplanet.ch>, mcleanj@dplanet.ch wrote: >  > K > > No Jan, a lot of people in the USA are still busy living out the cowboyiJ > > westerns of the 1950's.  (A reversion to childhood ideas ?)  They wantL > > to form a posse and hunt bin Laden down.  Wanted Dead or Alive.  If he'sE > > alive we'll try him and then hang him.  Maybe it really is just as! > > lynch-mob that we are seeing.s >lF > Have you ever been to the U.S., asshole?  Recently?  Spend much timeK > here?  You act like you know the people, but your words prove that you dob > not.  E Or perhaps it's you who hasn't a clue what you're talking about.  TheeL "Wanted Dead or Alive" was a direct quote from Dubya yesterday (it's hard toK imagine how you missed, since it was replayed a lot - presumably because it G was considered a great sound-bite that would resonate with the AmericanwJ psyche), and got picked up with relish as a poster on the front page of at least one paper today.   >.H > You take cheap shots at an entire nation, based on what you see on TV?  L No, he took a dead-accurate shot, based on what was on TV yesterday and this morning.   ...<  I > > There's a few sane voices but they are being drowned out by those who.G > > just want to shoot or bomb something somewhere and to hell with thei > > possible consequences. >i > Wrong.  I Sounds right to me.  I'm still waiting to hear any coverage whatsoever of  the peace rally held in NYC.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:14:53 -0400t' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centery( Message-ID: <9o8ddo$iro$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:YkLp7.317$YP.10852@news.cpqcorp.net...n< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9o6jka$gbs$1@pyrite.mv.net>...; > >"Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message10 > >news:9m3jtQP253z1@eisner.encompasserve.org... > >r > >... > > E > >> You offer a solution of "talk" and "education" to convince folks0" > >> that decide to be terrorists. > > E > >Not exactly.  I suggest that we need to review policies that upseta people,rL > >talk with them to help us understand their point of view and to help themJ > >understand that we aren't just going to ignore it, change such policiesK > >where they are flat-out wrong or of no importance, improve the execution- ofF > >policies that are appropriate but may not be well-implemented, seekI > >mutually-acceptable compromises in areas that reflect practical ratherd thanD > >fundamental philosophical differences, and keep talking about any	 remainingeL > >points of contention to ensure that not only do we understand their viewsD > >but that they understand the reasoning behind ours - because suchD > >conversations not only sometimes eventually *do* reach unexpected	 agreementtJ > >but keep people engaged in a civilized manner rather than across battle	 > >lines.  > >e> > >In other words, what we ought to have been doing all along. > > F > >Will this help keep *some* people from deciding they must resort toE > >terrorism?  Indubitably.  Will it keep *all* people from doing so?v4 > >Indubitably not - but neither will anything else. > >d > > snip > >d >i >tL > After my initial reaction (and response) I decided to pretty much not even > read this thread.   / That's pretty clear from the rest of your post.t  ;   It is the type of discussion that becomes pointless.  OneeL > side demonizing the other.  The use of scripture to justify ones position.J > The apologist who believes that if we can all just sing Kumbaya all will beI > well.  Bill is the worst of the offenders - a "Blame us", "do nothing",a andsL > bad mouth anyone who has a contrary opinion.  I fully expect Bill to write aaF > "you idiot" response to this... doesn't matter, I'll probably filter "World > Trade" later today.h  E Well, if you didn't bother to read what you appear to be presuming totK respond to, perhaps that more reflects your irresponsibility than a lack of-J intelligence.  But since I've never said anything remotely like 'blame us'I or 'do nothing', a degree of bad-mouthing for misrepresenting my positionsJ seems indicated - whether because you didn't bother to look at, or becauseJ your own bias prevented you from understanding, what I actually *did* say.   >e > The sad truths:s >bH > We as a nation, are guilty of actions that may have led some people to > "hate" the U.S.- >-E > Some of those actions were arguably wrong on our part.  That is, toe advanceiH > some agenda, we ignored the probable side effects that it might cause. >1J > Some are not our fault, but we are blamed nonetheless, perhaps simply asG > being percieved as a wealthy nation.  A poor nation resents a wealthyu: > nation, and feels an entitlement to share in the wealth.  K Perhaps.  But merely getting a reasonable amount of respect would go a long $ way toward reducing such resentment.     And as someoneL > will no doubt point out, we (especially in the past) had no compunction in+ > exploiting (plundering) weaker countries.v  I You're doing fine so far.  It's only the vehemence with which you seem todL wish to misrepresent my own views that makes me think that you've got a veryI large, unvoiced "But..." in your head that you feel makes such statementso% irrelevant in the current discussion.i   >aF > Some we are caught between a rock and a hard place.  Do we "abandon" IsraelL > simply because to *some* people there cannot *be* a solution that includes > it's existance?v  J Another straw man that no one here ever came close to suggesting.  The oneI post that even suggested that Israel's existence should be brought up forlJ discussion drew a response (from me) that this was not a realistic option.  K But suggesting that there's nothing Israel could do that should cause us tonJ abandon it is an entirely different matter.  If Israel wants our continuedG support, then it should have to act in ways we find at least reasonablynK acceptable - because our continued support *is* an effective endorsement of0I its actions, no matter how much we may express reservations and regret ine merely verbal terms.  7   Bill Clinton spent a lot of time to try and bring thenJ > parties together, including using our "clout" with Israel to coerce them to+ > the table.  Did we get any credit for it?o  I We got a great deal of credit for it at the time.  And when Israel pulled L back to a far harder line, and we failed to react in any substantive manner,# that credit was properly withdrawn.t  "   No, in fact the radicals on bothL > sides were pissed because NEITHER want the other side to exist.   RememberJ > that until the radical forces on BOTH sides caused it's undoing, we wereC > tetering on the brink of normal relations and peace in Palestine..  G We were indeed.  Unfortunately, the only party with any real ability to-F control the situation turned its back on its commitments after Rabin'sH assassination (by a right-wing Israeli) gave it an opportunity to do so.   >D) > Will "talking" fix things?  Not likely.D  * Sure won't if we reject it without trying.  %   Not even a formal apology will helptL > (an Iranian I was talking to before the return of the Ayatola) told me "WeJ > hate the U.S., and we will always hate you.  We want you to do the right8 > thing, but understand it will not change our hatred.".  D And yet, even without our having done much of anything save mute ourD demonization of Iran because of the neighboring problem Iraq became,J relations between our two countries (and to all appearances their peoples)" have slowly but steadily improved.  J Hate is unfortunately easy to inspire.  But when the *current* motivationsL behind it are removed and a legitimate attempt is made to extend friendship,H it also withers rapidly.  You may be too young to remember how hated theF Japanese were (perhaps largely for ethnic reasons, since Germans neverG seemed to inspire quite the same feelings) during and immediately after K WWII.  And more recently we have the example of Vietnam, even though littlehJ formal effort was made until recently to improve relations between our two
 countries.     Nor will money fixL > it.  Money might make some things better, but the RADICAL elements in play  > here do NOT want a compromise.  K The RADICAL elements aren't the main focus of such an initiative:  it's thelJ elements that aren't yet so radical that their minds are closed, and whoseG leanings strongly influence the *future* strength of radical movements.e   >eG > So what do we do?  Bill is full of a brown substance in thinking thatoI > "making nice" will reduce terrorism, or the hatred for the U.S. by somer	 > people.e   Speaking of closed minds....  E   If we want to change our policies towards others, then we should be 6 > doing so because its simply "the right thing to do".  I Indisputably, as I've said multiple times (including a passage you quotedaH above).  But 'doing the right thing' seems to have pretty clearly provenL insufficient motivation for our leaders, so I'm not sure what your point is.  I Since terrorism is on the front burner at the moment, observing that it'sa> also connected with 'doing the right thing' seems appropriate.     But some of theiK > thorniest problems are in areas that HAVE NO OBVIOUS SOLUTION THAT WE CANaD > IMPOSE - AND WHERE WE HAVE ONLY "SOME" INFLUENCE - like Palestine. FranklyiH > I believe that the current regime is Israel is dead wrong, and has set backC > the cause of peace 20 years.  Most people I know believe that thelK > Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.  But at the same time, nobody Id5 > know is suggesting that Israel must cease to exist.s  I Including me.  The suggestion is only that we make clear our intention to-H withdraw our support from a regime that we both appear to agree is 'deadI wrong' - and which makes *us* appear to be 'dead wrong' if we support it.$F That gives Israel choices that include going it alone or returning its0 stance to something we *can* reasonably support.   >eG > We are left with a real problem.  In the long term, we need to try tov attackH > the sources of the problems.  For instance why we would leave a despot like > Saddam in place.  H Because we *thought* his own people would do the job for us after he wasH defeated militarily, and save us the trouble.  But as with so many otherF policies, when it failed we didn't want to make the effort to find and/ implement another that would be more effective.n  I Yeah, we're a busy country.  But if we're going to take an active hand inhL determining the fate of others, we need to pay sufficient attention to it to do it right.  <   Or how to engineer a compromise with the moderate elementsH > in Israel and Palestine - but which can't be undone by the radicals on both > sides.  H Had we made our continued support for Israel contingent on its continuedG pursuit of Rabin's peace process, there's some real possibility that wee/ wouldn't be having this discussion - any of it.r  B   Or how to help alieve the poverty in a place like Afganistan andK > Palestine - the terrorist attack will have a economic cost well over $100vH > billion - a fraction of that in aid, might have perhaps made an attack like( > we just saw, "slightly" less probable.  K Though I strongly support effective aid to desperately poor nations, I have?C some reservations about anything even remotely suggestive of payingfK 'protection money':  I doubt that's what you meant, but making quantitative 8 dollar comparisons could cause people to misconstrue it.  I Let's just say it's one more thing we ought to be doing anyway that might A have beneficial side-effects in reducing the threat of terrorism.R   >sL > But in the short term, we need to make the price to be paid for the act soH > high, that nobody is tempted to consider a follow up.  We know who theJ > suspects are in a host of terrorist acts - not just the latest.  We need toK > hunt them down, and kill them all.  Were I to have no morals, I would sayiL > that we should kill their entire families.  Nothing is a deterent like theH > threat of having every living relative killed (as the Russians, or the	 > Mafia).n  + We have just parted company in a major way.k  K First, hunting down and killing 'suspects' rather than people with at leasteH reasonably provable ties to specific terrorist acts resulting in loss ofE life is vigilante 'justice' at best.  The main justification for such J 'justice' is the absence of any mechanism to obtain actual evidence, weighL it, and mete out *appropriate* penalties:  we are the richest, most powerfulL country in the world, have ample access to such mechanisms, and therefore no@ such excuse - certainly no excuse based on our sense of outrage.  L Second, the mere mention of killing uninvolved family members because of itsL (debatable) deterring effect puts you firmly in the terrorist camp yourself.I Too bad that apparently doesn't give you much insight into their motives:n; if it did, you *might* recognize the possibility of change.   A   If a country harboring one of them will not cooperate, then allrJ > options should be considered - from political/economic (which only has a@ > limited effect - see Cuba, Iraq, and Afganistan), to military.  F Cooperation is reasonable to expect and even enforce - as long as someL reasonable portion of the international community agrees.  If it doesn't, we% need to find non-military approaches.t   >rH > That may mean turning Kabul into a parking lot, should the Taliban not readJ > the writing on the wall (and the Pakistanies are working overtime trying toF > convince them that the "needs of the whole outweigh the needs of the one").I > Yes, this will no doubt have what they euphamistically call "collateraly
 > damage".  H It is possible, though difficult, to imagine circumstances in which thatK could be appropriate (though even then my suspicion is that it would likelysI be possible to go *around* most of the problem rather than *through* it).o  G What is *not* possible to imagine is a circumstance which would make iteK appropriate, say, next week:  that's nowhere nearly sufficient time to haveaH exhausted other reasonable options, which include providing some form ofI evidence to the Afghan government and giving them the opportunity if theyuF find the evidence persuasive to turn bin Laden over to another IslamicL government as an intermediary (which there's some indication they feel is an0 obligation under their interpretation of Islam).   > K > That may mean finishing the job on Saddam, and normalizing relations witht' > whoever the Iraqi's replace him with.   L If we could forget our pride and disgust and approach that goal with an openJ mind, the world might heave a collective sigh of relief and make it easier to achieve than we imagine.    >eK > That may mean a formal apology to Iran, an attempt to normalize relationsl+ > and eliminate their support of terrorism.*  K There seems to be at least some evidence that improving relations with IranaD and its people would be a lot easier than other items on this list -H especially given any real effort on our part to address the other items.   >eE > That may mean bringing more clout to bear of Israel to settle theiro problemi7 > that is dragging the entire world into this quagmire.   C As much clout as it takes, short of military action but potentially L including economic sanctions.  But they're a very pragmatic people:  if it'sK clear that they *have* to return to being reasonable, they may surprise us.    >wI > That may mean sending aid to Palestine, but at the same time wiping outr	 > Hammas.e  J Wiping out specific terrorists who can be tied to specific events that ledK to loss of life is justifiable.  Wiping out entire groups of people who mayvL be sympathetic to them but have had no reasonably-provable direct connectionC to such events is not - and is a major impediment to the process of  rapprochement.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:06:05 -0400@  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center$5 Message-ID: <1010918185408.1741A-100000@Ives.egh.com>m  % On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Bill Todd wrote:e   > A > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagecH > news:rdeininger-1809011302430001@user-2ivec4a.dialup.mindspring.com...H > > In article <3BA77A28.81EB68F3@dplanet.ch>, mcleanj@dplanet.ch wrote: > >e > >sM > > > No Jan, a lot of people in the USA are still busy living out the cowboyoL > > > westerns of the 1950's.  (A reversion to childhood ideas ?)  They wantN > > > to form a posse and hunt bin Laden down.  Wanted Dead or Alive.  If he'sG > > > alive we'll try him and then hang him.  Maybe it really is just ae# > > > lynch-mob that we are seeing.o > >wH > > Have you ever been to the U.S., asshole?  Recently?  Spend much timeM > > here?  You act like you know the people, but your words prove that you dow > > not. > G > Or perhaps it's you who hasn't a clue what you're talking about.  ThewN > "Wanted Dead or Alive" was a direct quote from Dubya yesterday (it's hard toM > imagine how you missed, since it was replayed a lot - presumably because it I > was considered a great sound-bite that would resonate with the AmericancL > psyche), and got picked up with relish as a poster on the front page of at > least one paper today. >  > >aJ > > You take cheap shots at an entire nation, based on what you see on TV? > N > No, he took a dead-accurate shot, based on what was on TV yesterday and this
 > morning. >  > ...e > K > > > There's a few sane voices but they are being drowned out by those whomI > > > just want to shoot or bomb something somewhere and to hell with the  > > > possible consequences. > >-
 > > Wrong. > K > Sounds right to me.  I'm still waiting to hear any coverage whatsoever ofm > the peace rally held in NYC.  H If you mean the one in a park in downtown NYC, not too far from the WTC,G last Tuesday or Wednesday night, it was on CNN that night.  There was aoD long, sympathetic story about it.  It wasn't billed as a peace rallyE per se, but the tenor of the event was to mourn the victims and to bew0 rational rather than vindictive in our response.   > - bill   -- Y John Santosl Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:22:17 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>t Subject: Re: World Trade Centern/ Message-ID: <3BA7E4F5.31343BB1@cableinet.co.uk>t   interesting thread here:  A http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_1550000/1550962.stmg   that states:   Getting him   3           The Americans are said to have planned anm;           operation aimed at capturing Osama Bin Laden lastr9           year, using Delta Force commandos operating outn&           of neighbouring Tajikistan.   =           Following last week's attacks in the United States,s=           Tajikistan has said it will not co-operate with anyy=           international operation against Afghanistan pendings           Moscow's approval. u  ;           But Jonathan Marcus says this might be for publicg;           consumption. In practice, who is going to know if @           elite forces are infiltrated through a remote airstrip9           on the border - some reports say they are therei8           already, either in Tajikistan or Uzbekistan or           Pakistan.   ;           A former Pakistani diplomat has told the BBC thate;           the US was planning military action against Osamao;           Bin Laden and the Taleban even before last week'si           attacks. p  ?           Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani foreign secretary, saidc>           he was told by senior American officials in mid-July;           that military action would start by the middle ofl;           October, from bases in Tajikistan, where Americani*           advisers were already in place.   < food for thought. They found out they were gonna get hit and were forced to fight back?     --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:06:32 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centern' Message-ID: <3BA7EF98.E6E85BF4@fsi.net>    Robert Deininger wrote:, > J > In article <y44rq2w2n7.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > 8 > > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > L > > > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validI > > > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it haslN > > > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aH > > > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > > > appropriate response.r > >s! > > Have you ever raised a child?a > J > No, but what does that have to do with anything?  Shall we look for someI > child-like innocence in the attackers, and make appropriate allowances?u9 > Please explain what raising children has to do with it.s  H In my teens, I saw a poster in a school that said, "The Fire-born are at< home in fire." It took me many years to understand it fully.  E Where death and violence are the norm, peace has no meaning. Children H raised with violence place no (or negative) value on peace and pacifism.   The original two-edged sword.v  G Our "electronic babysitters" have evolved from early anime - Astro Boy,tG Gigantor, StarBlazers and the like - to Doom and other violent computernH games. Some producers have announced that they will not release some newG terrorism-oriented games - too late, the horse has taken the others andeD left the barn many hundreds of miles away. May as well just burn the( barn down, for all the good it is now...  E What we have wrought must ultimately destroy us, regardless of how/ifa the U.S. responds.   -- o David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:45:06 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf' Message-ID: <9o8t87$gg$1@pyrite.mv.net>a  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3BA7EF98.E6E85BF4@fsi.net...e   ...t  G > What we have wrought must ultimately destroy us, regardless of how/ifo > the U.S. responds.  H Well, even if that were written in stone (which I refuse to accept), I'dL still rather go down trying to change it:  the author just might have made a mistake.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:54:27 -0500n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: World Trade Centere' Message-ID: <3BA808E3.FFA0410D@fsi.net>u   Bill Todd wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3BA7EF98.E6E85BF4@fsi.net...P >  > ...  > I > > What we have wrought must ultimately destroy us, regardless of how/ift > > the U.S. responds. > J > Well, even if that were written in stone (which I refuse to accept), I'dN > still rather go down trying to change it:  the author just might have made a
 > mistake.   Mistake? No doubt!  
 Consider: H Q: Why do the authors write violent cartoons / movies / computer games?  A: Because they sell, big time!t   *THAT* is what we have wrought!a  G That's capitalism, no? Selling violence in homage to The Almighty Buck.rA Reason enough to set off ANY zealot, not just terrorist-fanatics.   0 Q: WTC was a globally recognized symbol of what?D A: (Hint: the word appears in this message, starts with "c" and ends
 with "m".)  , Interesting perspective, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV...  9 I'm outta here... (Never did like Alphabet soup, anyway!)n   -- a David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems* http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:02:10 +0200r& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerp* Message-ID: <3BA826D2.5C24DF29@dplanet.ch>   Robert Deininger wrote:m > J > In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > 1 > > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:g > >tP > > >       You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewK > > >       with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.sH > > >       OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesO > > >       not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.a > >wG > > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.e >  > We???  > K > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItmG > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.h  E European countries have had a history of having to work together (esppE since 1945) and they are well aware that diplomacy and discussion arebD far more likely to result in a peaceful solution than trying to bomb someone into submission.  A Have you stopped to think about why other NATO countries were notsH attacked ?  These countries do after all support US activities in Iraq. C These countires also oppose Israel's actions and have tried severalh> times to get Sharon to back away from using live ammunition on stone-throwers.      > -- > Robert Deininger > rdeininger@mindspring.coma     John McLeani   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:12:49 +0200 & From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerl* Message-ID: <3BA82951.D3EE5F31@dplanet.ch>   Bill Todd wrote: > A > "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message H > news:rdeininger-1709011201450001@user-2ivebbf.dialup.mindspring.com... >  > ...w > D > > Yes, all this evidence found so quickly has bothered me from theM > > beginning.  Too much like a novel.  I wonder if some of it is planted, toI, > > throw suspicion in the  wrong direction. > >iK > > Some of the finds sound like the book "How I did it" in the movie Young  > > Frankenstein.. > >tK > > From what I've heard, the authorities aren't _doing_ anything rash with M > > the evidence.  Just rounding up more suspects, with more than their usualh
 > > vigor. > E > Unfortunately, when a country is as powerful and, in many opinions,vK > unpredictble as we are, rash statements can have the destructive force ofnI > acts.  In this case, while it's understandable that we might think thateB > talking tough with the Afghans might make actual military actionM > unnecessary, it has already caused a massive and frantic exodus of refugeesn> > to occur - a process that always results in misery or worse. > H > There was no clear need to do this before more solid evidence had beenM > obtained.  Should it turn out that bin Laden was *not* directly involved inpK > the WTC attack, we will be responsible for the effects of our impatience.  >   F Any idea how the authorities decided who the 18 alleged hijackers wereD ?  (I use the term alleged because it looks like there is some doubtC about the young Palestinian.)  Were the surnames a give away or waso there something else ?     John McLeann   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:15:27 GMT"# From: GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com>s Subject: Re: World Trade Centerd, Message-ID: <3BA82AE1.C6E9A06D@malarkey.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:e > F > In article <3BA77A28.81EB68F3@dplanet.ch>, mcleanj@dplanet.ch wrote: > K > > No Jan, a lot of people in the USA are still busy living out the cowboyrJ > > westerns of the 1950's.  (A reversion to childhood ideas ?)  They wantL > > to form a posse and hunt bin Laden down.  Wanted Dead or Alive.  If he'sE > > alive we'll try him and then hang him.  Maybe it really is just a ! > > lynch-mob that we are seeing.t > F > Have you ever been to the U.S., asshole?  Recently?  Spend much timeK > here?  You act like you know the people, but your words prove that you doi > not. > H > You take cheap shots at an entire nation, based on what you see on TV? > K > > Underlying it all is their infallible (or infantile) righteousness thataI > > they couldn't have possibly done anything to make people angry.  Theyp> > > believe such an idea to be to preposterous to contemplate. > L > Wrong.  It appears you've just described a typical European mentality, but1 > then I'm only going by what I read in the news.s > I > > There's a few sane voices but they are being drowned out by those whonG > > just want to shoot or bomb something somewhere and to hell with thet > > possible consequences. >  > Wrong. > I > > A web petition asking Bush to show restraint and think hard before her- > > acts can be found in several languages atn% > > http://www.findefux.de/petition/.e >  > So?o >   9 That petition.... I wouldn't recommend anyone signing it.eA Sort of like giving your name and phone number to a telemarketer. B Only we wouldn't know who gets the list or for what real purposes. This one is scary.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Sep 2001 13:23:39 -0400+ From: randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew) - Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq/, Message-ID: <2001Sep18.132339.13113@srs.gov>  A In article <20010917171237.86295.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>, o  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br says... > 2 >I dont know why Oracle still with RDB, because it! >is a unique product for OpenVMS. , >It should return to HP/Compaq and become an >unbundled product for OpenVMS.  >o >p, >There is no Ingres, Sybase, or Informix for	 >OpenVMS.n  0 (Open)Ingres runs well on VMS and CA is actively1 supporting it. There are still a lot of VMS shopsw that run Ingres.   Randyt   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.521 ************************