1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 19 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 522       Contents: Re: aircraft fuels Autogen phases ??  Re: Autogen phases ?? ( Re: Compatible hard drives for VS4000/60 Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?  DAFS for OpenVMS Re: DAFS for OpenVMS Re: Decnet Copy problem  HP lauches new server (PA-RISC)  HP OpenView and OpenVMS  Re: HP OpenView and OpenVMS - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history? - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history? - Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?  LTO under VMS? Re: More Alpha rubbish in print 0 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 New company to be called "HP"." Re: New company to be called "HP"." Re: New company to be called "HP".( New installation from other node's image, Re: New installation from other node's image OT: Bin Laden or Saddam?" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center   Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMS  Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMS1 Problems with DECC SMG routines and Alpha VMS 7.3 & Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage& Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage Re: Re-direction of output Re: Re-direction of output! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )
 tnt$server5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ? 5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ? 
 Re: vmstar
 Re: vmstar Re: We are back from CETS  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 08:14:34 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: aircraft fuels 3 Message-ID: <HCYO7$ri5vHT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3BA7F13D.1F72A4BB@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > F > At Beech Aero Club and Planemasters, I as a student had a reputationE > among the instructors for doing such a thorough pre-flight, I found  > stuff *THEY* missed! >   D    I too, never took off in a plane carrying anything but light blueE    fuel.  But students don't know the effect of years of routine, and C    pilots are human.  Some will miss things, else you couldn't have (    found things your instructors missed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:53:04 +0800 ' From: "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>  Subject: Autogen phases ??0 Message-ID: <9oai9u$7qs3@imsp212.netvigator.com>  K What is the sequence of the start phase and end phase of the autogen when I  try to downsize my machine?    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:04:27 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: Autogen phases ??@ Message-ID: <20010919170427.48012.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>  
 Try first ...    @sys$update:autogen help      . This help explain everything you want to know.     Regards    FC=20   * --- Kenneth <chehon@netvigator.com> wrote:1 > What is the sequence of the start phase and end  > phase of the autogen when I  > try to downsize my machine?  >=20 >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief information 7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:30:05 GMT # From: mats@plea.se (Mats Magnusson) 1 Subject: Re: Compatible hard drives for VS4000/60  Message-ID: <3ba8ab46@plea.se>  4  JF> Which digital hard drives are (mechanically and8  JF> electrically) compatible with a VAXstation 4000/60?<  JF> That is, will mount neatly in the plastic "drive cage",0  JF> have the appropriate 50-pin connector, etc.<  JF> Also, must be capable of installing VMS (unlike RZ23L),9  JF> and preferably 2.1GB or greater.  (And anything else   JF> I forgot to ask.)  Thanks,   @ Well, i think that if you have the correct mounting kit for your% VS4000/60 almost any drive will work.   F I have just installed VMS on a VS 4000/90 using an old seagate ST1480NG originaly from a sun sparcatation IPX. It seems like RZ25E is really an  ST1480N anyway.   I I have a vaxstation 4000 vlc running vms 6.2 on a quantum lightning 700MB  drive.  J I also have an old VS 3100 using a drive originally from a rank zerox word
 processor.  D What I'm trying to say is that there is no requirements on vendor id* strings and such stuff on the scsi drives.  H However i have no knowledge of any limit in drive size. Actually I thinkH that i have never touched a vax with a scsi drive larger than around oneI gig. It's so much funnier running a lot of RA9x/7X disks, a pair of hsc's $ and a pair of vax6000 machines :) :)   --  * M.V.H. Mats Magnusson http://plea.se/~mats   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:43:34 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> $ Subject: Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?) Message-ID: <3BA876D6.1266EEB7@gtech.com>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > Didier Morandi wrote: ' > > > jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil wrote: C > > > > Does any one have any info about a port of cpio to OpenVMS?  > > > ( > > > W H A T   I S   CPIO ????????????? > > ; > > A common Unix utility. A very old Unix utility I think.  > : > Seems to be compilation of (unsplit?), g(un)zip and tar.   ????  $ CPIO is way older than GZIP/GUNZIP !  4 And I do not think it is that related to TAR either.   Arne   ------------------------------  / Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:47:16 +0200 (MET DST) & From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: DAFS for OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <200109190647.IAA24431@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  H does anybody know something about DAFS (Direct Access File System) basedG on VI (Virtual Interface)? The letter one was developed by Compaq for a D fast interconnect protovol within clusters. Will we see DAFS also in& OpenVMS (as in a lot of other OS too)?   TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:46:28 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: DAFS for OpenVMS ( Message-ID: <9o9idv$kgr$1@pyrite.mv.net>  3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message 0 news:200109190647.IAA24431@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > Hello, > J > does anybody know something about DAFS (Direct Access File System) basedI > on VI (Virtual Interface)? The letter one was developed by Compaq for a F > fast interconnect protovol within clusters. Will we see DAFS also in( > OpenVMS (as in a lot of other OS too)?  G I wouldn't count on it, but I have no inside information.  The little I / *think* I know about VI and DAFS is as follows:   H VI is intended to be a hardware-supported interface (I think people haveL created software-only emulators, but they're if anything less efficient thanJ more conventional mechanisms) that (in the specific case of DAFS) allows a@ client application to access remote data without any significantL client-local system involvement (i.e., the client application talks directlyE to the network hardware, via a hardware-protected interface that only L involves the kernel during initialization).  The host end would typically beH another (file server) application that the client can talk with directlyL (without host kernel involvement) via the same hardware-protected interface.  H Kernel-to-kernel communication via VI may also be possible, but achievesA less performance optimization because the ability to avoid kernel G involvement at both ends of the network connection is no longer useful. G Thus other hardware that off-loads network protocol processing (such as I intelligent NICs that handle TPC/IP checksums and in some cases aggregate 7 packets into larger messages) may be equally effective.   K I think ServerNet II supports VI - but does VMS support ServerNet II?  Some H new Gigabit Ethernet cards may support it as well.  But DAFS is aimed atL more traditional client/server file systems such as NFS, where it's possibleL to divert the client application's file access activity before crossing intoK the kernel, whereas the VMS cluster file system is structured to handle all K inter-node interaction in kernel code and hence would not easily be able to G capitalize on VI (or DAFS) for that purpose.  Furthermore, I don't know H whether DAFS supports anywhere nearly as rich a file-system interface as ODS-2 does.   J So if DAFS is going to be supported at all by VMS, it would likely be in aL manner very similar to the way VMS supports NFS:  available for use, but not& an integral part of VMS like ODS-2 is.   - bill   >   > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert >    ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2001 05:19 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem- Message-ID: <19SEP200105190078@gerg.tamu.edu>   ) "VMS Novice" <best@hotmail.com> writes...  }I have added the line" L }IF F$MODE = "NETWORK" then EXIT in SYLOGIN, but the decnet copy still fail.  K The way it is written above, you are trying to use the symbol F$MODE (which M is probably not defined) instead of evaluating the lexical function F$MODE(). B Note that the trailing "()" is required to make it be the lexical.   $ say f$mode= %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spelling 	  \F$MODE\  $ say f$mode() INTERACTIVE   I When you are logged into node B, the NCL command SHOW NODE B should work. E Since it doesnt, your DECnet is not properly configured. It may be as G simple as the name B not being properly registered for it - try running K SYS$SYSTEM:DECNET_REGISTER and examining your node name information. (There F could also be some relevant information in the vast quantity of outputF that DECnet V puts into operator.log, especially during startup.) ThisD should not, however hang if it doesn't recognize the node, it shouldG return error messages including "unrecognized node name", so it may not  be as simple as this.    --- Carl    8 }"David Beatty" <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ?????- }news:tYWnOxAKLyXZwjKQw+FQZbrOaYbr@4ax.com...  }>; }>     You can also check SYS$SYLOGIN and the Login Command C }> Procedure for the user on the target node and see if anything is 2 }> going out to SYS$OUTPUT during a Network login. }> }> David R. Beatty }>H }> On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:19:07 +0800, "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>	 }> wrote:  }>M }> >When I try to DECnet copy the files in node B from A, it will returns the " }> >error "Network partner exist". }> >' }> >I have check and try the following: ? }> >1. I have restart the DECnet in node B, but it still fails. F }> >2. I have check the net$server.log in node B, but there is nothing }logged.- }> >3. I have do the following NCL in node B:  }> >    NCL> show node 07 }> >    - it will returns the tower set and successful.  }> >   NCL> show node B @ }> >   - it will fail with the error application not responding.M }> >4. I have check the protection for the FAL.EXE and is executable for both  }> >group and world. }> >M }> >I just wonder if it could help in rebooting the system. Is there anything  }I }> >can do?    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>( Subject: HP lauches new server (PA-RISC)? Message-ID: <20010919171001.8733.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>   4 When Compaq ... ops HP ... is planning to launch new( Alphas and Proliants ???? Any schedule ?    	 Click at:   = http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7214961.html?tag=3Dch_mh      HP boosts Unix server line=20  By Michael Kanellos  Staff Writer, CNET News.com=20$ September 18, 2001, 10:30 a.m. PT=204 update Hewlett-Packard unveiled a new Unix server on4 Tuesday, a crucial element in its grand plan to take on IBM.   1 The HP rp8400 will become the company's principal 4 offering in the midrange Unix/RISC server market and5 be marketed alongside the rp7400, or N-Class, midsize ) server, which sports eight processors.=20   4 Midrange, though, is almost a misnomer given the new0 machine's muscle. Although less costly than HP's3 massive "Superdome" server, the new machine will be 6 capable of running 16 processors at once. Prices start. at $124,000, depending on the configuration. A4 full-featured 16 processor machine can sell for $1.1 million.=20    (...)        =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief information 7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>  Subject: HP OpenView and OpenVMS@ Message-ID: <20010919170749.48412.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>  * I believe OpenVMS will have a shine future in HP.       Click   = http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7215728.html?tag=3Dcd_mh      =20   & Management software key to HP plans=20 By Stephen Shankland Staff Writer, CNET News.com=20$ September 18, 2001, 10:40 a.m. PT=20/ Hewlett-Packard's planned acquisition of Compaq - Computer has cast the spotlight on a drab but 0 increasingly important--and profitable--piece of6 management software used to administer everything from% phone networks to storage systems.=20   0 OpenView, HP's banner product in the $20 billion1 management software market, already ties together . disparate products from HP's product line. New. enhancements mean it can be extended to Compaq3 products, better joining the two companies' product 6 lines and letting OpenView piggyback on Compaq's heavy) presence in the Windows server market.=20   4 In a recent memo on HP's planned acquisition, Compaq5 Chief Executive Michael Capellas singled out OpenView 3 as a "vital part" of the company's plans, filling a 5 major gap in Compaq's ability to tie together all the * components of a large customer's computing infrastructure.=20 (...)        =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? ) Donate cash, emergency relief information 7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:57:17 -0400 ( From: Hamlyn Mootoo <univms@bigfoot.com>$ Subject: Re: HP OpenView and OpenVMS* Message-ID: <3BA8DC7D.7595301@bigfoot.com>  + What does this article have to do with VMS?/   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > , > I believe OpenVMS will have a shine future > in HP. >  > Click  > = > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-7215728.html?tag=cd_mhP >  >  > % > Management software key to HP plansa > By Stephen Shankland > Staff Writer, CNET News.comw# > September 18, 2001, 10:40 a.m. PTI1 > Hewlett-Packard's planned acquisition of Compaqa/ > Computer has cast the spotlight on a drab buta2 > increasingly important--and profitable--piece of8 > management software used to administer everything from$ > phone networks to storage systems. > 2 > OpenView, HP's banner product in the $20 billion3 > management software market, already ties togetherb0 > disparate products from HP's product line. New0 > enhancements mean it can be extended to Compaq5 > products, better joining the two companies' producti8 > lines and letting OpenView piggyback on Compaq's heavy( > presence in the Windows server market. > 6 > In a recent memo on HP's planned acquisition, Compaq7 > Chief Executive Michael Capellas singled out OpenViewg5 > as a "vital part" of the company's plans, filling a:7 > major gap in Compaq's ability to tie together all thee, > components of a large customer's computing > infrastructure.  > (...)R >  > =====e > ========================== > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > ========================== > 4 > __________________________________________________/ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?e+ > Donate cash, emergency relief informationt9 > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:15:00 +0200b= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>e6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?) Message-ID: <3BA86214.7D6EF30D@gtech.com>v   Bill Todd wrote:9 > "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in messagez% > news:3B9F4992.D3A33715@gtech.com... I > > I think nobody can imagine HP porting two high-end commercial Unix'es  > > to Itanium.r > >  > > It does not make sense.  > > + > > HP-UX is already ported. Tru64 are not.d, > > HP bougth Compaq. Compaq did not nuy HP. > >e > > The conclusion is obvious. > G > Except that HP's statement that it would honor all the aspects of thelN > arrangement Compaq made with Intel (which included the Tru64 port to Itanic) > seemed to indicate otherwise.e  % What exactly did they promise Intel ?t  < That Tru64 will be ported to Itanium => they have a problem.  D That Tru64 will not continue on Alpha => they do not have a problem.  A That their "Unix" will be ported to Itanium => they do not have a  problem.  F That Tru64 customers will be migrated to Itanium => they do not have a problem.  D And even in the first case, then I do not think Intel will press the3 issue. It does not make sense for them to be picky.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:26:25 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?( Message-ID: <9o9va7$t2p$1@pyrite.mv.net>  7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message # news:3BA86214.7D6EF30D@gtech.com...  > Bill Todd wrote:; > > "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in messagei' > > news:3B9F4992.D3A33715@gtech.com...-K > > > I think nobody can imagine HP porting two high-end commercial Unix'esh > > > to Itanium.r > > >  > > > It does not make sense.s > > > - > > > HP-UX is already ported. Tru64 are not. . > > > HP bougth Compaq. Compaq did not nuy HP. > > >t  > > > The conclusion is obvious. > >eI > > Except that HP's statement that it would honor all the aspects of the0H > > arrangement Compaq made with Intel (which included the Tru64 port to Itanic)e! > > seemed to indicate otherwise.8 >.' > What exactly did they promise Intel ?s  J I was thinking more of what Compaq promised customers as part of the deal, which included the Tru64 port.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:49:37 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>z6 Subject: Re: Is the Tru64 port to Itanium now history?) Message-ID: <3BA8A271.DE6246B6@gtech.com>3   Bill Todd wrote:L > I was thinking more of what Compaq promised customers as part of the deal,  > which included the Tru64 port.  G Promises does not seem to be major concern for Compaq higher management= !3   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2001 15:24:11 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)g Subject: LTO under VMS? 0 Message-ID: <9oadar$3pc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   Hello,  L we are thinking about a new tape library. And there is SuperDLT and LTO. Any" experiences with one or the other?   Regards,    Christoph GartmannS  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:42:32 +0200l= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>o( Subject: Re: More Alpha rubbish in print) Message-ID: <3BA87698.71BF466E@gtech.com>l   andrew harrison wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > andrew harrison wrote: > > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > > andrew harrison wrote: > > > > > Arne Vajhj wrote:" > > > > > > andrew harrison wrote:G > > > > > > > According to the latest windows survey StarOffice now has C > > > > > > > 15% of the Office market ahead of Corel and Lotus bute > > > > > > > behind MS Office.c > > > > > >k > > > > > > URL please ?	 > > > > >h5 > > > > > It was a poll done by Windows 2000 magazine 	 > > > > >nN > > > > > http://www.win2000mag.com/Poll/Index.cfm?QID=198&Action=PreviousPoll	 > > > > > M > > > > > Obviously it is only based on their magazine/web readers responses.  > > > >,J > > > > 1284 readers of a magazine that (based on the headlines) is ratherG > > > > technical does not sound as a good indicator for how the office7 > > > > applicationm > > > > market in general are. > > > >V > > >rD > > > As I said its only based on their readers responses, now where> > > > is the URL for the OpenVMS is the bestest OS based on an; > > > online poll with rather less than 1284 responses ????  > >  > > Never seen one.l > >AK > > You may be reffering to a poll where system-administrators rated OS'es.,$ > > And VMS got outstanding ratings. > >l7 > > The only thing you can deduct from that is that VMSe > > system-administratorseL > > are very happy with VMS. And you do need a poll to know that - just read) > > comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX for a few days !n > > < > > You introduced a questionable poll in a discussion about- > > marketshares for the total office market.k > 0 > Quite and I was sensible enough to say that it0 > was only based on the readers of the magazine.   No you were not !   ; You claimed that an survey shows that StarOffice had 15% of  the office market.  ? When we were skeptical and asked for documentation, then it was  suddenly just a "reader poll".  @ And we has to find out ourself that it was a technical magazine.  . > Perhaps you could explain why the StarOffice, > poll is any different to the poll that VMS- > systems administrators responded to. On theg/ > face of it the StarOffice poll is much easier.. > to justify since it is quantative unlike the0 > systems admin poll which was mostly qualative.  ' The polls are not particular different.   > What is different is that you use one poll to mislead people !   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:15:11 GMTo- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)a9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1s0 Message-ID: <3ba8a7c5.91679197@news.process.com>  J On 19 Sep 2001 05:33:38 GMT, vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) wrote:  ? >Subject says it all, the next version of Mozilla (0.9.5?) willn@ >require V7.2-1 and above.  After the first release, M10 all the@ >way through 0.6, 0.8, the 0.9 series VMS versions V7.1, et. al.; >including 7.1-2 were supported.  Mozilla 1.0 was so close.o >h >More suckiness from Compaq. > A I can't speak for Compaq, but based on what I know of the portingT? effort for Mozilla, the source depends very heavily on features A in the C RTL that simply didn't exist until VMS V7.2.  Colin has,eB I think, been bending over backwards to support the older versionsD up to this point.  My guess is that the current sources have reached@ a point where it's just not feasible to keep fudging the missing
 pieces....   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/o9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:59:32 -0400o2 From: Mark Schafer <mark.schafer@compaqnospam.com>9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1e/ Message-ID: <3BA8B2D4.9040508@compaqnospam.com>o   Vance,  D I suspect it's due to Java.  The new J2SDK uses dynamic heap memory G allocation.  I had to raise PGFLQUO on all the accounts on the OpenVMS  . Java TestDrive.  I think that was new in V7.2.   Mark   Vance R. Haemmerle wrote:   @ > Subject says it all, the next version of Mozilla (0.9.5?) willA > require V7.2-1 and above.  After the first release, M10 all thefA > way through 0.6, 0.8, the 0.9 series VMS versions V7.1, et. al. < > including 7.1-2 were supported.  Mozilla 1.0 was so close. >  > More suckiness from Compaq.p >  > -- > Vance Haemmerle  > vance@alumni.caltech.edu >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:49:32 +0200a& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1-* Message-ID: <3BA8CC9C.47A1A42E@dplanet.ch>   "Vance R. Haemmerle" wrote:l > @ > Subject says it all, the next version of Mozilla (0.9.5?) willA > require V7.2-1 and above.  After the first release, M10 all the A > way through 0.6, 0.8, the 0.9 series VMS versions V7.1, et. al.O< > including 7.1-2 were supported.  Mozilla 1.0 was so close. >  > More suckiness from Compaq.m >  > -- > Vance Haemmerlel > vance@alumni.caltech.edu  F I recall seeing something recently about Netscape for VMS being dumpedE and Mozilla being the browser of preference.  Problem is that I can'tf find it.  F I can't see anything from The Inquirer or The Register, so it may have2 been an article from WSJ or some similar analysts.  7 Keep your eyes open and it might resurface somewhere...      John McLeani   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:57:30 -0400r* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 ) Message-ID: <3BA8CE7A.8070007@compaq.com>s   John McLean wrote:  H > I recall seeing something recently about Netscape for VMS being dumpedG > and Mozilla being the browser of preference.  Problem is that I can'te
 > find it. >    www.mozilla.org/releases/m   -- i John Reagane' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadera   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:58:30 +0100Q8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>' Subject: New company to be called "HP".eN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF054@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>   Statement from HP says:oJ "We expect to complete the merger in the first half of next year and, when8 completed, we will then do business under the HP name. " I saw this on The Register.  John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)$   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:57:55 +0200f= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>t+ Subject: Re: New company to be called "HP". ) Message-ID: <3BA87A33.3A42FAEE@gtech.com>f   John Macallister wrote:i > Statement from HP says:IL > "We expect to complete the merger in the first half of next year and, when: > completed, we will then do business under the HP name. " > I saw this on The Register.a   Is that new ????  ? It is not a real merger. HP are buying Compaq. Just like Compaq18 bougth Digital. Ofcourse the company will be called HP !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:27:03 -04007 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com+ Subject: Re: New company to be called "HP".t> Message-ID: <OF89A7A721.4B9B7B80-ON85256ACC.004DC7F3@acml.com>  ; sort of to be expected as it's a buyout/takover not merger.=      x                                                                                                                         x                     John Macallister                                                                                    x                     <J.Macallister1@physics                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com                                   x                     .ox.ac.uk>                             cc:                                                          x                                                    Subject:     New company to be called "HP".                          x                     09/19/2001 04:58 AM                                                                                 x                                                                                                                         x                                                                                                                                Statement from HP says:.J "We expect to complete the merger in the first half of next year and, when8 completed, we will then do business under the HP name. " I saw this on The Register.U John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukH Post: Nuclear and Astrophysics Laboratory, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)a            F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containe< privileged and confidential information and is intended only< for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the< intended recipient,  or an employee or agent responsible for? delivering this message to the intended recipient,  any review,1@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication> is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyd# all copies of the original message.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:44:43 +0800i' From: "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>i1 Subject: New installation from other node's imagel0 Message-ID: <9oa78p$s312@imsp212.netvigator.com>   All,  L I want to to set up another VMS 7.2-1 node by restoring the system disk fromK other node which also running the same OS. After restore, what setup I havenG need to do in order not to make these node confused with one and other.e  K NB: The hardware configuration for these 2 machines are different. One havel9 4GB memory, 6CPU but the other only have 512MB and 1 CPU.h   Thanks.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:00:49 +0200D* From: Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il>5 Subject: Re: New installation from other node's image1* Message-ID: <3BA8B321.2030109@tzora.co.il>  H The less experience you have with VMS, the less I would recommend you goF that route. You will not be _quite_ sure you got all the references to@ the original node's name, DECnet address, TCP/IP address, disks,B licenses, (and by the way - you are not supposed to copy a license@ database from one node to another..) queues, MODPARAMS etc. etc.& Its a lot easier just installing OVMS.  C If you do, however, decide to change a node's name, cf. the related>L topic MGMT9 in the OpenVMS FAQ   http://eisner.encompasserve.org/vms/faq.htm   ~Mikeh   Kenneth wrote:    > All,d  >E  > I want to to set up another VMS 7.2-1 node by restoring the systemhF  > disk from other node which also running the same OS. After restore,@  >  what setup I have need to do in order not to make these node  > confused with one and other.a  >E  > NB: The hardware configuration for these 2 machines are different.IE  > One have 4GB memory, 6CPU but the other only have 512MB and 1 CPU.s  >
  > Thanks.  >  >  >     -- rE ---------------------------------------------------------------------dE Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il*tE Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home):(972)-2-9908337sC    "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%" E ---------------------------------------------------------------------t* ------ GEEK CODE BLOCK (Version: 3.1)-----( GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++' N++ K? w--- V+++$ PS+ PE-- t X- tv-- b+i DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@v* ---------- END GEEK CODE BLOCK  ----------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:43:50 +0100'% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o! Subject: OT: Bin Laden or Saddam?u8 Message-ID: <8jtgqtk0klsdvciujq99ebh7nnkshuet0k@4ax.com>   From today's Times (of London)B http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320008-2001324249,00.html   WEDNESDAY SEPTEMBER 19 2001 & Bomber met Iraqi chief of intelligence5 FROM ROLAND WATSON AND DAMIAN WHITWORTH IN WASHINGTONsC A LINK between Iraq and one of the World Trade Centre attackers waseD disclosed last night amid British concerns that Washington might use? President Bushs war on terrorism as a pretext to topple Saddam1 Hussein.  ? American intelligence officials said that Mohammed Atta, who iseD believed to have been at the controls of the first jet to crash, met) the head of Iraqi intelligence this year.   C They stopped short of saying the meeting demonstrated that SaddamseA hand lay behind the attacks. But some leading figures in the BushHB Administration believe that they could yet build a case for Iraqs involvement.  B Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, refused to rule out theF possibility that a state had sponsored the hijacks, which have claimedD more than 5,000 lives. John Ashcroft, the Attorney-General, declined+ to comment on reports of Iraqi involvement.i   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:09:25 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> + Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleary8 Message-ID: <56kgqts46mlg0roil1865j9h7r83pvnd19@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:20:30 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>n wrote:   >oK >In the press conference just now, GWB continued to back-pedal a bit on the I >use of mass conventional military force, saying that in this 'war' therehK >'would be no beaches to storm, no islands to conquer' (and a third similar I >but land-oriented sentiment that I've forgotten at the moment).  CNN had2  E Yep, he said all of that. Then right at the end of the list of thingsrB there wouldn't be he added something like "Actually there probably< will be some of all of that.". Still the words coming out ofB Washington now are far more likely  to build international support than some a few days ago,@  D And I don't know what was said on the phone in private to Israel andD the Palestinians but it seems to have had the desired effect for the moment.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:24:53 -0400p' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>o+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearh( Message-ID: <9o9v7c$t2l$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:56kgqts46mlg0roil1865j9h7r83pvnd19@4ax.com...G > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:20:30 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i > wrote: >h > >aI > >In the press conference just now, GWB continued to back-pedal a bit one thetK > >use of mass conventional military force, saying that in this 'war' there-E > >'would be no beaches to storm, no islands to conquer' (and a thirdm similariB > >but land-oriented sentiment that I've forgotten at the moment).  5 (The third phrase was "no battle lines to be drawn.")7   >2G > Yep, he said all of that. Then right at the end of the list of thingsqD > there wouldn't be he added something like "Actually there probably > will be some of all of that."   D I just listened to a replay and didn't hear that (nor do I recall itG originally on the live broadcast).  But perhaps we're just interpretingm+ something he did say in a different manner.L   . Still the words coming out of$D > Washington now are far more likely  to build international support > than some a few days ago,p >LF > And I don't know what was said on the phone in private to Israel andF > the Palestinians but it seems to have had the desired effect for the	 > moment.-  
 I hope so.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:08:25 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com>+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear > Message-ID: <ZU%p7.175703$aZ.31248583@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  ; "Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message-2 news:uvcgqt0dal6tm44mdgd10h8j6aqvg62h8k@4ax.com... >- > So what is new ?E > Bush appears to care more about his popularity ratings and boosting G > his chances of winning the next election. His current jingoism is notr# > about the American people at all.  >A >9  C As one of our other more eloquent posters might say:   "Horseshit"!    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:17:28 -0400o5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>r+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearo2 Message-ID: <9ZmoO1MGi8yaWCmEETQudHN63EAE@4ax.com>  . On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:59:51 GMT, Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:  7 >On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:04:54 GMT, "s" <s@s.com> wrote:  >hI >>Of course not.  If anyone remembers well, Clinton sent those missles to N >>distract attention from him being investigated in Monicagate.  Clinton caredH >>less about Bin Laden and a lot more about distracting the attention of> >>America from his own problems.  A true Wag the Dog scenario. >d >So what is new ?iD >Bush appears to care more about his popularity ratings and boostingF >his chances of winning the next election. His current jingoism is not" >about the American people at all.  =     Absolutely not.  President Bush is not perfect, but he isf7 a far more principled man than President Clinton was ore3 will ever be.  Remember, the World Trace Center and 8 Pentagon attacks were directly on U.S. soil against U.S.	 citizens.e   David R. Beattyo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:46:37 -0400t# From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> + Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleary+ Message-ID: <3BA8A1BD.27F2528C@hsc.vcu.edu>o  G not to mention that we're now insulting the cockroaches, comparing themo$ to terrorists...  that's low.... ;-D   (this is a joke, ok?)k   Jims   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > Rob Young wrote: > Q > >         You got a cockroach problem?  You certainly don't ignore them.  Yeah, Q > >         maybe you live in a bad part of town or a bad flat/apartment and they N > >         keep coming back.  That doesn't mean you don't do your darndest toJ > >         eradicate the cockroaches AND if you get cooperation from yourP > >         neighbors you bomb all the nests you rid the whole building of them.K > >         Do they come back in a few months?   Maybe, maybe not, crank upo+ > >         the cockroach bombs if they do.  > @ > you are making an analogy between cockroaches and human beings0 > which I would argue is not valid in this case. >  > -- > Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  > D > Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of# > my employers or service provider.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:03:41 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> + Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleara8 Message-ID: <sc9hqtcpuftang54oq4iopkjichp31l8tl@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:24:53 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y wrote:   > E >I just listened to a replay and didn't hear that (nor do I recall iteH >originally on the live broadcast).  But perhaps we're just interpreting, >something he did say in a different manner.   Got a URL for the replay?      -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:50:30 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)M+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleara3 Message-ID: <fG70LofxrYRq@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  e In article <3BA7FADC.4473F483@cableinet.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> writes:t >  >  > Rob Young wrote: >  oP >>         You got a cockroach problem?  You certainly don't ignore them.  Yeah,P >>         maybe you live in a bad part of town or a bad flat/apartment and theyM >>         keep coming back.  That doesn't mean you don't do your darndest to-I >>         eradicate the cockroaches AND if you get cooperation from youraO >>         neighbors you bomb all the nests you rid the whole building of them.vJ >>         Do they come back in a few months?   Maybe, maybe not, crank up* >>         the cockroach bombs if they do. >  K@ > you are making an analogy between cockroaches and human beings0 > which I would argue is not valid in this case. >  t  D 	You are right.  You don't have to worry about cockroaches strappingA 	explosives to their tiny little chests and REALLY surprising youu& 	when you flick the light on at night.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:28:51 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearo( Message-ID: <9oah19$g6o$1@pyrite.mv.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:sc9hqtcpuftang54oq4iopkjichp31l8tl@4ax.com...G > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:24:53 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  > wrote: >  > >SG > >I just listened to a replay and didn't hear that (nor do I recall it"J > >originally on the live broadcast).  But perhaps we're just interpreting. > >something he did say in a different manner. >l > Got a URL for the replay?o  ! Sorry - it was on the tube again.i   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:03:50 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9o9cdb$d5i$1@pyrite.mv.net>  0 "GreyCloud" <mist@malarkey.com> wrote in message& news:3BA823DB.887D69C5@malarkey.com...   ...   C > Would it be possible to confiscate Bin Ladens funds??  The SEC isiJ > investigating into those that knew in advance of the WTC and looking for= > those who intended to sell short to make money off of this.o  B A welcome contribution to a discussion that was getting terminallyE polarized:  this and many other avenues of approach to 'waging war onRK terrorism' promise to be both far more effective and far less damaging than0 conventional military action.r   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:27:15 +0200n5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <3BA864F3.CEEDAE3A@TeraPort.de>q   Bill Todd wrote: >  > M > As for your own comment, while Pakistan does not have nuclear submarines it0M > does have nuclear weapons.  If we act so as to cause these to fall into theaJ > hands of those we've made sufficiently angry with us by, say, sending anD > invasion force through the country against its wishes (here's thatJ > cause-and-effect thing again), we could conceivably see them used in, or  H  you can even go farther: if the current Pakistani *government* approvesC US military actions against Afghanistan from its soil it could make.> enough of the Pakistani *people* angry enough to overturn saidE government. Another neutral/friendly country tourned into enemy. Just1% what the terrorists wanted to achive.-   Martin -- ,B ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309c7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111t5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759a   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 08:07:55 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)?( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <p2MiFoECA14d@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  [ In article <3BA7F2DD.56BBA8B3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > Bob Koehler wrote: >>  F >>    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern andG >>    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in  >>    South America. > C > To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment or ) > support terrorism. Neither does Canada.   : No, but the have cells here and in all those other places.> The terrorists are here.  How else could they get on airplanes< here?  If we go nuking all the places they live, we nuke us.  H >>    When we get done nuking all these places, that leaves China as the >>    leading world power. > ; > Why? Since we didn't nuke ourselves, what happened to us?   	    q.e.d.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:57:58 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <naOoO0W8+ID5vF=vBV8RDsOu2bkB@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote:    <most or previous posts snipped>  B >Would it be possible to confiscate Bin Ladens funds??  The SEC isI >investigating into those that knew in advance of the WTC and looking for < >those who intended to sell short to make money off of this.  :     Possible but not wise strategically.  It appears there1 were large put orders on both American and Unitedo5 within a week of the WTC/Pentagon attacks.  I've alsot2 heard an unconfirmed rumor that Bin Laden invested4 in insurance regarding the WTC.  As a spokesman said7 on CNN last night, follow the money trail and see where+	 it leads.3   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 10:17:32 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <Mvg+uKJeb4hV@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  R In article <9o99t4$9s5$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: >   D >> To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment or* >> support terrorism. Neither does Canada. > N > The kinds of things some U.S. citizens like you and Rob have suggested couldI > be considered realistic (though perhaps 'regrettable') options, such asnM > turning Afghanistan into a heap of glowing rubble, qualify as 'raining downeN > indiscriminate terror' in the minds of civilized people.  But I agree that I@ > don't know of any similar sentiments from North of our border. >   = 	I have not and will not advocate what you stick above.  Thato@ 	is *very* disingenuous of you Bill.  There was minor collateral= 	damage in Iraq and it showed up on the evening news.  A few  D 	smart bombs weren't so smart and regrettably innocents died.  A few? 	folks were unfortunate enough to be crossing bridges when theye< 	were bombed.  But the vast majority of action occurred away@ 	from civilians and at night with F-117 and the like to minimize 	civilian casualties.-  > 	But again, I am reading about "war".  I am not reading about @ 	"action".  War and all the connotations that go with it is veryC 	serious.  We hear in this thread about this being "knee-jerk", not  	so. :  E http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/wtc_poll010918.htmlr  K Sept. 18 - Americans express readiness for a drawn-out war on terrorism. Don they mean it?   O History suggests they do. ABCNEWS polls over the past 15 years show that publicdK support for military action by the United States is not automatic. And whenc given, it tends to last.  I The Gulf War is a prime example: Support for U.S. policy started high andfM stayed high, defying suggestions that the public's patience would wane duringgN the long pre-war buildup. All the way from August 1990 to January 1991, beforeG the shooting began, two-thirds to three-quarters of Americans supported L military action against Iraq. More recently, support for the 1999 air war onI Serbia started low, but jumped to a majority when the bombing began - and> stayed there to the end.  L Despite conventional wisdom, moreover, public support for military action isN not a knee-jerk reaction. If the case isn't made, support doesn't materialize.J U.S. military involvement in Bosnia, Haiti and Somalia all lacked majority support.   ...o  #                  Lessons of Vietnamt  K The trend of opinion during the Vietnam War tells another story. SkepticismzO grew as the conflict lagged on. In September 1965, just 24 percent called it "akN mistake" to have sent U.S. troops to fight there. Three years later, in AugustM 1968, that had grown to 53 percent. And 60 percent called the war "a mistake"- by January 1973.  I There were many reasons for dissatisfaction with the Vietnam War. But one-K critical one surely was the lack of a perceived threat to the United States-6 significant enough to put American lives on the line.      	Other Poll info:G                    September 18, 2001  %               Poll on Cost of Attackst  %               By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS   #               Filed at 2:22 p.m. ET/  J Some results from polls taken after the terrorist attacks measuring publicO sentiment about a U.S. military response once the groups or nations behind themMN are identified. The CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 1,032 adults was taken FridayO and Saturday and has an error margin of plus or minus 3 percentage points. WhengO results don't total 100 percent, the remainder either didn't know or refused to. answer.c  "               CNN-USA TODAY-GALLUP  K Do you think the United States should or should not take military action in & retaliation for the terrorist attacks?  "               --Should, 88 percent  %               --Should not, 8 percentd  K Do you think the United States should or should not take military action ini  retaliation for the attacks, if:  @               Ground troops were to be used in a ground invasion  "               --should, 80 percent  &               --should not, 18 percent  <               U.S. military action would take several months  "               --should, 86 percent  &               --should not, 11 percent  ;               U.S. military action would take several years   "               --should, 66 percent  &               --should not, 30 percent  4               1,000 American troops would be killed,  "               --should, 65 percent  &               --should not, 30 percent  I Do you think U.S. military action against the terrorists will increase orsF decrease the chance of further terrorist attacks against this country?  $               --Increase, 43 percent  $               --Decrease, 49 percent  N If the U.S. does not take military action against the terrorists, do you thinkN this will increase or decrease the chance of further terrorist attacks against
 this country?   $               --Increase, 89 percent  #               --Decrease, 7 percentr     				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:40:56 +0100a0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center) Message-ID: <3BA8CA98.1060906@uk.sun.com>e   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Bob Koehler wrote: > U >> In article <9o6g8u$eqk$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:  >> eN >>> Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feel theyN >>> have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any whoP >>> actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killing all ofO >>> them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it.b >> dF >>    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern andG >>    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in  >>    South America. >  > C > To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment oro) > support terrorism. Neither does Canada.- >  t  2 I hate to burst your bubble but the US has got its6 hands dirty many times, either directly or indirectly.  3 For directly take the US sponsorship of the Contrasf8 in Nicaragua, for indirectly NORAID in Northern Ireland. RegardsA Andrew Harrisonb Enterprise IT Architectl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:06:29 +0200r= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> ) Subject: Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <3BA86015.65CC79AB@gtech.com>o   krish wrote:G > We have developed a GUI for one of our product using Java. When i wasnG > testing this GUI on an OpenVMS ALPHA7.2-1 with JVM 1.3.0, i found the G > performance to be abysmal.Every buttom click would take a few minutes H > to respond and display the contents on the screen. I observed the sameG > behaviour on all other JVM,like 1.2 flavours(our GUI required JVM 1.2iD > or more).But,the same GUI when run on a Windows machine, perform's > very efficiently.1 > F > Initially my machine had a Physical memory of 64MB. Relating the badF > GUI performance to the Physical memory constraint, i increased it toH > 96MB. But this did not prove any improvement. Subsequently i installed/ > Java Fast VM for 1.3.0, but nothing improved.f > > > I would appreciate if someone can advice me on any tuning orE > improvement to the system, that will improve the performance of the  > GUI.  5 How much memory in the Windows PC you compared with ?-   128 MB ? 256 MB ?e  : Both 64 and 96 MB RAM are way too little to do heavy Java.  9 But since 64->96 did not even help, then you should firsto try and check quotas.i   Java needs a lot of memory.   = And normal VMS Alpha quotas which were fine for f.ex. VMS 6.2m are just way too low.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:07:09 +0200n= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>t) Subject: Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMSa( Message-ID: <3BA8603D.A5F37DC@gtech.com>   David Mathog wrote:  > krish wrote:I > > We have developed a GUI for one of our product using Java. When i was.I > > testing this GUI on an OpenVMS ALPHA7.2-1 with JVM 1.3.0, i found theaI > > performance to be abysmal.Every buttom click would take a few minutesjJ > > to respond and display the contents on the screen. I observed the sameI > > behaviour on all other JVM,like 1.2 flavours(our GUI required JVM 1.2eF > > or more).But,the same GUI when run on a Windows machine, perform's > > very efficiently.w > E > Whenever things crawl on VMS that run quickly elsewhere it's almost- > always the file systemK > and or RMS versus the cached filesystems/disk IO on pretty much all othere > OSs.F >  Try installing DECram, and put all of your products files on there. > Or  if you can get tooJ > VMS 7.3 there's disk read caching, which should speed things up too.  If > you can't do either.C > play with the SET RMS settings and see if cranking them up helps.   5 It is rather unusual for GUI's to be disk I/O bound !b   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 01:10:42 -0700) From: joelleauffret@lucent.com (jauffret)a: Subject: Problems with DECC SMG routines and Alpha VMS 7.3= Message-ID: <cddefe9c.0109190010.6ec18256@posting.google.com>c   Hi all,yD we have an old tool with SMG$ routines (lang C) that runs with Alpha, VMS 7.1.2 system and not with Alpha VMS 7.3. Decc version is 6.0.' Compilation option : "cc /STANDARD=VAXCc5 /WARNING=(INF=UNINIT1,NOINF)/ASSUME=NOALIGNED_OBJECT/  NOMEMBER_ALIGNEMENT /NOOPT"g  D The problem is that the routine smg$select_from_menu does'nt wait my choice.s  % Perhaps, somebody knows this problem.e   Thanks for your help   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 08:21:12 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage03 Message-ID: <Nku+kqM3lgHQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  b In article <Xns91218AF0981Ajimv50NOSPAMcom@140.99.99.130>, Jim Valley <jim_v50@NOSPAM.com> writes: > Hello all, > O > Is there any way I can limit the PERCENTAGE of processor used by a process?  t > K > I have a process that spikes every couple of minutes while it performs a aJ > query, but I'd like to limit it to use only 10% of the processor at any 
 > given time.  >   D    You want your processor to sit around running the idle loop whileB    some process needs it?  Wish I had that kind of money to waste.  D    All those processes that aren't getting any share of the CPU mostD    likely aren't asking for any (waiting for I/O or such).  Some mayF    simply be at lower priority, but you can see that via $show system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:55:24 -0400o0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot>/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usagea5 Message-ID: <Ga3q7.61103$TW.329998@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>c  H You can limite the quantum for a process using the $SCHED system serviceI (not so easy to implement) or using the new scheduling functionality thatyD comes in SYSMAN on OVMS 7.3. This new feature is an interface to the SYS$SCHED service.  I Let's say your process does no IO, only CPU. The process will execute foriG say, 10 hundreds of seconds then VMS will give the CPU resource to someaG other process (that's what is called time sharing). You can limit for aaE certain class of proceses to have them use no more than 5 hundreds ofi3 seconds at a time, before giving it away to others.   G What it does is that other processes do not have to wait as long to get-F their share, and processes you want to put in a higher priority have a better (longer) share.  L With the process priority (PRIO), all processes will have the same length ofL time granted to them but processes in a higher priority will be gven the CPUL more often than the ones in a lower priority. So that's a different consept.J Both can live together. And again, if the process does an IO or has a waitJ of some kind the CPU will be given to another process at once, it does not& wait for the time quantum to complete.  K The numbers in my explanation are completely wrong I'm sure, but that's theo3 general consept of process scheduling and priority.    Time to update to OVMS 7.3!-   --   Syltreme; http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site)d    ? "Jim Valley" <jim_v50@NOSPAM.com> a crit dans le message news: / Xns91218AF0981Ajimv50NOSPAMcom@140.99.99.130...@ > Hello all, >tD > Is there any way I can limit the PERCENTAGE of processor used by a process? >bJ > I have a process that spikes every couple of minutes while it performs aI > query, but I'd like to limit it to use only 10% of the processor at anye
 > given time.e >n > Thanks and kind regards, >o > Jimi   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 06:52:04 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org# Subject: Re: Re-direction of outputt3 Message-ID: <UMyEhbZFFjMB@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  i In article <3BA77EE2.AC31DB27@unnecessary.csc.com>, Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com> writes:7F > It shows that there are no user mode logicals defined but plenty for > process and job etc.  I It sounds like we can discard my theory that there are user mode logicals:D getting in the way.  Ummmm... you do realize that "user mode" refersD to an access mode of a logical name and not to the table in which it is defined, right?  @ There is a tiny possibility that there is a user mode logical inE LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY that is interfering.  You might try a run usinge1 $ SHOW LOGICAL /FULL /TABLE=LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY   F We could try to confirm or refute the theory that image rundown is theE key factor in the workaround.  Try using $ SHOW TRANSLATION SYS$INPUTfB instead of your $ SHOW LOGICAL.  SHOW TRANSLATION is a builtin andE does not activate an image.  If that succeeds as a workaround then weyF know that I'm barking up the wrong tree.  Try using $ TYPE NL: instead? of $ SHOW LOGICAL.  If that succeeds as a workaround then image-$ rundown would appear to be involved.  - > The values for SYS$OUTPUT etc are as statedeE > previously are seemingly taken from the process table (as you would I > expect). There is also a MANTIS_OUTPUT logical defined in the JOB table  > which is set to SYS$OUTPUT.-  H Those logical names are normal.  And, since they are in supervisor mode,: they would not be affected by execution of $ SHOW LOGICAL.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:03:47 -0700, From: kuzishchin@mail.ru (Kirill Kuzishchin)# Subject: Re: Re-direction of output = Message-ID: <44ef2912.0109190803.6fd718c1@posting.google.com>o  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<J74x6zf0riPv@eisner.encompasserve.org>...V > In article <KPmVmVHO3RoG@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:m > > In article <3BA77216.A2649855@unnecessary.csc.com>, Adrian Birkett <abirkett@unnecessary.csc.com> writes:.0 > >> The results of show log/full/all are below: > >> r# > >> $ sho log /full/all sys$outputeF > >>    "SYS$OUTPUT" [super,confine] = "_DSA205:" [concealed,terminal] > >> (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)" > >> $ sho log /full/all sys$errorF > >>    "SYS$ERROR" [exec] = "_DSA205:" [terminal] (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) > >> $ sho log /full/all tt- > > K > > In case you missed the post to which you just responded, $ SHOW LOGICALe > > runs an image. > G > Of course LOGINOUT is also an image, run to set up DCL for a process.=0 > It runs down before your DCL commands execute.  F You can use SHOW TRANSLATION command which does not run an image so itB keeps user mode logical names. But you have to specify the logical+ name whose translation you want to display.e   From OpenVMS DCL Dictionary:E "The SHOW TRANSLATION command is similar to the SHOW LOGICAL command. @ However, the SHOW TRANSLATION command is executed within the DCL> command interpreter (the SHOW LOGICAL command calls an image).B Therefore, the SHOW TRANSLATION command does not cause the currentF image to exit and does not deassign user mode logical names. Also, theE SHOW TRANSLATION command does not display iterative translations of as name."   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:56:24 +0200:= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>:* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?) Message-ID: <3BA879D8.FEAE030C@gtech.com>    Jerry Leslie wrote:5+ >   http://www.theinquirer.net/18090105.htmm& >   Linux on Alpha heads for the gulag  $ Are anybody surprised over that ????  ; Nobody wants to spend ressource sdeveloping for a platform,h: that is a dead end (and even though Alphas may be produced9 and sold for 10 year to come, then it is still dead afterr the Itanium announcement).   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:41:21 +0100 ? From: "Hamid AzizPOP_Server=pop.freeuk.net" <hsaziz@freeuk.com> M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) 5 Message-ID: <3U_p7.66356$TB2.5342724@nnrp4.clara.net>a  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message G news:rdeininger-1809011253480001@user-> > Chomsky estimates that of the ' around 200 nations in the world, aroundtH > > 7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )G > > are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members disliker/ > > the US, there is something seriously wrong.   J > There are few people on the planet who hate the U.S. as much as Chomsky.I He will do or say anything that he perceives as harming this country.  HeoI > was, and may still be, a great linguist.  His political discourse isn'tiG > taken seriouly by any except lefist wackos and fellow America-haters.a+ > Like you, judging from your recent posts.e  	 Comment:-s Chomsky is a thinker.o? What he said was the result of deep thinking about the subject. A This contrasts with the emotional mindless reactions against him.   H The fact is that the US Government, its secret agencies and its powerful@ Corporations are responsible for death, destruction, plundering,G impoversiment, subversion, insurrections, destabilization of states and L large scale suffering throughout the world. They have financed and supportedL terrorists, toppled Democratic Governments and established dictatorships and tyrants in many countries.  K This is not say that other States do not do the same and also ply their ownaJ selfish interests at the expense of others, but that the USA is richer and5 more powerful and can do this to a much larger scale.w   --
 H. S. Aziz www.altway.freeuk.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:15:43 +0000s  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comM Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) / Message-ID: <00256ACC.00435D0A.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P I've seen this hydra [Terroism is a hydra headed monster. Cut off one head and 9P more grow.]  mentioned many times - perhaps those that use it in this way shouldO look at how the Hydra was killed, and then think that perhaps this might not be ' the best way to describe the situation.o  I Thinking about it though, and reading some of the threads, perhaps it IS.i   Steve Spires          = baba_booey@hotmail.com (Baba Booey) on 09/19/2001 02:34:17 AM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)lL From:      baba_booey@hotmail.com (Baba Booey), 19 September 2001, 2:34 a.m.  D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )        D Oh my god are you in the US?  If so remember that this country givesF you one thing your Arab countries don't, the right to talk the way youF do about them.  If you do that in your precious Arab countries you getA you head wacked off.  If you are in the US and you don't like it, E LEAVE!!!!  We are not the blame for being attacked by extremist.  ButwB we are the ones to be blamed for the death of bin Laden and Sadam.E Also if you wanna say this is the price to pay for being friends with E Isreal then I say fine, at least they are half way civilized.  If you B are not in the US then find you way to Kabul and see just how weak( this country is.  Baba Booey to you all.  . On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:58:02 GMT, Israel Raj T" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:  B >On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu> >wrote:dE >>same here...  we really need to go in with foot infantry or really,a4 >>really smart weapons, and take the terrorists out. > 9 >No, the US need to sit down and talk to other countries.rE >Perhaps then they will begin to understand why they are now the mostt >hated country in the world. >0F >Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations in the world, aroundE >7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )tD >are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members dislike, >the US, there is something seriously wrong. >t$ >Terroism is a hydra headed monster." >Cut off one head and 9 more grow.< >Remember when the Munich Olympics massacre was a big deal ?= >Remember the days when Abu Nidal was the big bad terrorist ?w: >Terrorists seem to become worse by orders of magnitude... >s >Readt >http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm  >for a few free clues. > G >It has the Chomsky and the Fisk articles on line as well as some other- >excellent pieces.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 05:54:09 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)rM Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )t= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0109190454.1ef54ef8@posting.google.com>i  < Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message >    > No, I am Australia.e   And IR Baboon?  K As an Australian (and also as a person who does not enforce their politicalnK views on other people) I find your posts somewhat inappropriate, especiallypL this one. You are _certainly_ not "Australia" and do not represent the views5 of _any_ other Australians I know or work with daily.h  6 > Havent you learned how to read message headers yet ?  G You have already stated your posting are way off topic for comp.os.vms.iN With all due respect would you please truncate your list of target newsgroups.  - This is the all I have to say on this topic. h  
 Thanking you.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:27:50 -0700+ From: theovermind@another.com (jackkincaid) M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques )e= Message-ID: <eb35fbed.0109190827.7d1c1f1d@posting.google.com>n  n Israel Raj T <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<39reqtg29v53s2a6t3cv52bad9se56ftfi@4ax.com>...C > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:56 -0400, Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>m > wrote:  G > Chomsky estimates that of the around 200 nations in the world, around F > 7 ( Canada, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and a couple of others )E > are really pro-US. When the majority of the 19 NATO members dislike - > the US, there is something seriously wrong.k  E If Chomsky said that he's an idiot (and I used to respect some of thes things he wrote. Blimey).   E How do you measure 'like' and 'dislike'. Did Chomsky make that clear?   E When it comes to national opinion on another nation's foreign policy,eF the only opinions that count are those of democracies. We may *assume*A or *think* that China, say, doesn't like US policy on Taiwan. ButtA since we don't *know* what the Chinese population thinks it's noteD really worth specualting on. My guess is they don't care. What a fewA geriatric failed revolutioinaries in the Beijing government thinky3 tells us nothing except the state of real politics.p  E Still, there are plenty of democracies in the world  to guage popular F opinion toward the US. It will vary, obviously. Britain will always beA closest to the USA because of their shared history of friendship,eB because they have both had similar roles in the world, because theE British know  when they have debts owed. Other democracies may or may D not feel similar bonds depending on their history and traditions andD so forth... Australia and Canada, Israel and S Africa will be close;E France, Germany and continental Europe slightly less so; India, JapanaD next; S America;;; etc. etc.etc. The democracy least close to the USC is probably Russia - but even they will be wanting to help out thisp time around. > % > Terroism is a hydra headed monster.n# > Cut off one head and 9 more grow. = > Remember when the Munich Olympics massacre was a big deal ?u   It still is.  > > Remember the days when Abu Nidal was the big bad terrorist ?  ! He's under house arrest isn't he?l  ; > Terrorists seem to become worse by orders of magnitude...m  E Not sure what your point is. Terrorists grow out of terrorsim as theyeC become older and wiser; as their movements fail and they understandeD the opportunity for political gains through democratic means. We areC currently all waiting for parts of the Islamic world to grow out ofi1 its infatuation with violence and fundamentalism.s  F But the acts of terror they commit retain their potency for as long asD their victims, their families or the witnesses live. And democracies> have a duty, without undue sentimentality, to make sure nobody forgets.  C Make no mistake, Osama bin Laden, if guilty, will go down as one of- the worst criminals in history.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:57:03 -0400o% From: "Doug Luce" <luce_d@subway.com>V Subject: tnt$serverc3 Message-ID: <001501c1412c$1bbbbf20$cb5b5cc0@isluce>i  G I am trying to get the tnt$server to run on a es40-2 openvms v7.2-1 andaI tcpware 5.4. The problem that I am running into is defining the port 441.lJ When I connect with the openvms management station I keep getting an errorK message that connection to client or host lost. I believe that the port hasnH to be defined as bg_tcp but I do not know what the input file should be. Any help would be appreciated.   Thanks	 Doug Luce- DAI-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:26:14 GMTs= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)s> Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?0 Message-ID: <00A02475.978586D5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <9o8np0$sqe@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) writes:> >In article <cf15391e.0109180819.1f16c257@posting.google.com>,3 >Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:i >>E >>In the CETS2001 session on "Porting OpenVMS Applications to Itaniumo- >>Processor Family" there was a slide saying:n >>F >>  - All compilers should be able to deal with F, D, G, S, T and X (S  >>and T are native IEEE formats) >n >   What, no H floating?   It's not there on Alpha either.y   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            lJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:34:11 -0400s2 From: Mark Schafer <mark.schafer@compaqnospam.com>> Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?/ Message-ID: <3BA8ACE3.6050607@compaqnospam.com>m   Vance,  I I don't speak for VMS engineering, but since the Alpha architecture does  G not support H-float, my guess is that support on Itanium would be thru p operating system emulation.T   Mark   Vance R. Haemmerle wrote:   ? > In article <cf15391e.0109180819.1f16c257@posting.google.com>,t4 > Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote: > E >>In the CETS2001 session on "Porting OpenVMS Applications to Itanium - >>Processor Family" there was a slide saying:i >>E >> - All compilers should be able to deal with F, D, G, S, T and X (Sa  >>and T are native IEEE formats) >> >  >    What, no H floating?i >  > -- > Vance Haemmerle( > vance@alumni.caltech.edu >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:38:20 +0200 > From: "Jean-Franois Marchal" <jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr> Subject: Re: vmstars. Message-ID: <9o9l93$512$1@reader1.imaginet.fr>  7 I would appreciate if you could send me your source ...s Jean-Francois Marchalf X9000 - LYON (FR)w jean-francois.marchal@x9000.fr  > "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net> a crit dans le message news:  9niai9$cm9$2@news2.kornet.net...L > I am trying to download the "vmstar" freeware, but kept getting this error	 > messageiL > "Internet Explorer can not download from the internet site vmstar.zip from > ftp.process.com , > The server returned extended information."@ > Is there some other way that I can get this freeware "VMSTAR". >A > Thank you in advanced. >l >l >  >  >s >e >a >w >I   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:02:57 GMTa- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)i Subject: Re: vmstaru0 Message-ID: <3ba8a56c.91077572@news.process.com>  K On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:16:33 +0900, "David Lee" <phongle@kornet.net> wrote:i  K >I am trying to download the "vmstar" freeware, but kept getting this errorr >messageK >"Internet Explorer can not download from the internet site vmstar.zip from@ >ftp.process.com+ >The server returned extended information."e? >Is there some other way that I can get this freeware "VMSTAR".r >sF You could also try using a real FTP client and not a brain-dead PC web browser.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/e9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:59:51 -0400t2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>" Subject: Re: We are back from CETS1 Message-ID: <G15q7.351$YP.15653@news.cpqcorp.net>   ' Just received this from the CETS folks.   L Presentations from Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 available now!  L Many of the presentations that were given or were slated to be given at CETSG 2001 are now available on line. Follow the directions below to find you L preferred presentations. Note that not all presentations are available; someL speakers do not want their materials posted, and other speakers weren't ableL to check in at the conference. We will continue to post new presentations asI they come in to us. Also note that only attendees who actually registeredt< for CETS 2001 will be able to access the presentation files.  D 1. Visit the portal site www.cets2001.com <http://www.cets2001.com>.   2. Log in to the portal.  A 3. Select the option "Build My Schedule" from the left-hand menu.   ' 4. Select the option "Session Catalog."h  K 5. You can search for specific sessions if you like, shortening the list of- sessions to wade through.   L 6. When you get the list of sessions, look for the document icon next to theK session ID numbers. The sessions with that icon have presentation materials1 posted on this portal.  J 7. Select your desired session and click on the document icon. This brings0 up an index of files available for that session.  ) 8. Select the files you want to download.c   "s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:19:50 -0400d' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>m Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh( Message-ID: <9o9dbb$dn7$1@pyrite.mv.net>  0 "GreyCloud" <mist@malarkey.com> wrote in message& news:3BA82AE1.C6E9A06D@malarkey.com...   ...a  ; > That petition.... I wouldn't recommend anyone signing it.rC > Sort of like giving your name and phone number to a telemarketer.LD > Only we wouldn't know who gets the list or for what real purposes. > This one is scary.  K While I suppose that signing could be an invitation to who knows what kindsaL of solicitations, I don't yet have a sufficiently jaundiced view of the U.S. government to be *scared*.  J But I didn't particularly agree with some of its wording, and I've already1 sent Dubya a polite email expressing my concerns.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:29:14 -0400O' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>H Subject: Re: World Trade Centere( Message-ID: <9o9dt0$e7n$1@pyrite.mv.net>  3 "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messagen$ news:3BA82951.D3EE5F31@dplanet.ch...   ...L  H > Any idea how the authorities decided who the 18 alleged hijackers wereF > ?  (I use the term alleged because it looks like there is some doubtE > about the young Palestinian.)  Were the surnames a give away or was- > there something else ?  I One stewardess gave the seat number of one of them via cell 'phone.  MoreeG were tracked via rental records for cars left at airports with at leastDJ highly suggestive contents (such as flight manuals in Arabic).  Once a fewJ such leads turned up, they likely led quickly to other corroborating ones.  I There do seem to be a lot of links to bin Laden in all this.  Whether anytF are really conclusive rather than simply reflect the many threads thatH connect a bunch of different terrorist/dissident/whatever communities isJ less clear.  And the thought that some misleading evidence might have beenJ left intentionally, while a bit far-fetched, is not completely ridiculous:K I hope we have something fairly solid (and are willing to provide it to theoL Taliban in some manner - e.g., via a mutually-trusted intermediary who wouldJ not need to reveal really sensitive details, if any) before taking action.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 01:01:51 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White), Subject: Re: World Trade Center = Message-ID: <39779b25.0109190001.766b5596@posting.google.com>T   rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote in message news:<rdeininger-1309012102510001@user-2ive7ie.dialup.mindspring.com>...L > You seem to have things confused.  Hidden within your words there seems toG > be an assumption that Tuesday was the teeniest bit justified.  If yous6 > really think that, then you are part of the enemy.    D Be more discerning in your reading of English. There is a difference! between justification and reason!r  C You are throwing straw men around! Nobody wants to hand over Israelh "on a platter".   C And I am hearing many calls for "lobbing bombs willy-nilly"! Not onUF this forum, but look outside this highly intelligent place and it gets frightening very quickly.t  A It would just take you, Robert, on a podium with your rhetoric inz/ front of the  the denizens of New Jersey Onlineg> (http://www.nj.com/forums/terror/) to get some volunteers nuke> 50,000,000 people to death, turn the entire middle east into a@ radioactive wasteland, and create concentration camps to off the remaining "Arabs".  H > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validE > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it hasaJ > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aD > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > appropriate response.  e  F No valid point. But think! Perhaps the reason was as stated to provoke= some huge and disproportionate response to bring about WWIII?   K > Nothing would ever satisfy the like of Osama bin Laden, short of the U.S.aG > dropping all our own bombs on ourselves and ceasing to exist.  What's  > there to discuss with him?  B NOTHING of course not. You cannot negotiate with extreme lunatics. Nobody is suggesting you can.   C They are suggesting that the source for potential extremists can begD cut off by changes in foreign policy. All extreme organizations look like a pyramid.   E The narrow top of extreme killers rests on a slightly broader base ofoE active sympathizers, upon broader passive sympathizers, upon the restgA of the "concerned" population. Attacking the top level extremists2C won't serve any useful purpose. It might assuage some deep lust foroC revenge and blood, but it won't help the LONG TERM INTERESTS of ther free world!u  I > Please excuse my excited tone, if I've misunderstood your meaning.  I'my > low on patience today.  E OK, we are all together against the nutters really, but we do need to  think any response through.d  F Fred's stance seems to have cooled a lot recently, and he has concededB many points in what he claimed was going to be his last posting! IE think it goes to show the importance of stepping back and consideringf( things instead of shooting from the hip.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 01:31:02 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White)s Subject: Re: World Trade Centerl= Message-ID: <39779b25.0109190031.54619c73@posting.google.com>@  o David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote in message news:<XOulO2vPYQoztSgcn1e2ElifrBBZ@4ax.com>...r > > >     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat all? > foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Doe; > you really want to put those countries that oppress theirh: > citizens on an equal footing with those that allow their9 > citizens more freedom?  Think about the implications ofe > that choice.  F The USA has an incredible record of strongly supporting countries that? oppress their citizens, as long as they are on the side that istA currently in favour, or against the side that is currently out ofr favour!   D Iraq was a pal when Saddam was fighting the then baddies in Iran! WeE even took it on the chin when he fired a missile at a US warship backe in the 80s.e  . Do you think Pakistan is a friendly democracy?  E What about propping up right wing dictators in South America? HelpingwE overthrow Salvador Allende? Don't talk about supporting just the goodn guys!i  E That's global politics, and I don't think we should get into it here.-C We (the allies) teamed up with Joe Stalin when he was useful to us,oA and then turned a blind eye when he slaughtered 20,000,000 of hisr	 citizens.r  D >     While the surface record has shown an increase in temperature,E > satellite data, weather ballon data, and proxy data (tree rings andoB > ice thinkness) have not.  Why do you suppose that is and what do+ > you think the most likely explanation is?o  C Ice is disappearing! Whole chunks are falling off the Antarctic icemE sheet. OK, come back whining when more and stronger hurricanes drivens: by higher ocean temperatures start hitting the west coast.  G > >Just because the USA is the biggest kid on the block it doesn't meana, > >that it shoul dforget to act responsibly. > D >     No arguement there.  Despite the U.S. mistakes, I think you'll> > find this country acts more responsibly that many would have > you believe.  B I am not a US basher. Of course there are responsible people thereB with good intentions, and the US has a lot to offer. I don't think that's under dispute at all!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:33:04 +0200g5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>n Subject: Re: World Trade Centero+ Message-ID: <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>3   Robert Deininger wrote:c > J > In article <y466aglist.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,J > Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > 1 > > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:n > >oP > > >       You should have caught ABC's re-cast of John Miller's 1998 interviewK > > >       with OBL.  The quote I dropped out earlier today was from that.tH > > >       OBL points out that American citizens are fair game, he doesO > > >       not differentiate them from military.  Kill them wherever they are.  > >iG > > So we stoop to his level and behave in a similar way? No thank you.y >  > We???t > K > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItsG > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.e >  Robert,h  G  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviourhF on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrB you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-(   Sorrye Martin -- mB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309y7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111r5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:57:24 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centers8 Message-ID: <30ugqt0l915v42heu02bdv9nppik4cvg71@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:13:26 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c wrote:  F >On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:51:54 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> >wrote:a >n > I >>I'm curious about Alan's source for the information that the PA plane'srB >>pilot had announced they were going to land as instructed (by anJ >>intercepting plane?) and that an explosion had occurred (possibly due to >>having been targeted).  > Found at east one reference now to telephone call reporting anE explosion onboard Flight 93. Note that the name of the emergency call D handler is given. I have seen another interview somewhere with GlennE Cramer where the call was replayed to the journalist but I can't findt it right now.   B http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320002-2001315224,00.html  A Minutes before it came down, a passenger made an emergency mobileo; phone call and shouted that the flight had been taken over.i  E Saying that he had locked himself in a toilet, the passenger shouted,dD we are being hijacked, we are being hijacked, and pleaded with the) emergency operator to take him seriously.w  D The call was placed at 9.58am. Moments later the passenger said thatD the Boeing 757, flight 93, was going down. It crashed north of theC Somerset county airport, 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh and eight1A miles east of Jennerstown, which does not handle aircraft of suchs size.o  D There was initial speculation that the plane may have been shot downA by US Air Force jets to prevent it continuing on a flight path ofp0 greater destruction, but that was not confirmed.  F However, the jets diverted flightpath  it had taken off from Newark,D New Jersey, for San Francisco  put Camp David in Maryland very much within striking distance.p  F There were no clues about the cause of the presumed premature crash ofA the flight, or who had been at the controls in the final moments.R  ; Glenn Cramer, an emergency calls supervisor in neighbouringeC Westmoreland County, said that the man who made the mobile call hadn9 repeatedly impressed on officials that it was not a hoax.u  F Mr Cramer said the man said the plane was going down: He heard someB sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him.w   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:04:48 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1909010904480001@user-2ive7u0.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <3BA7A81B.4BD535B3@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:    F > You could not blame anyone for that. I just wish someone would stateL > categorically and absolutely that it was not shot down rather than leave a > question mark.  C The defense department HAS said this, categorically and absolutely,-' several times.  No shoot down happened.:   -- 0 Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:09:48 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CenternL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1909010909490001@user-2ive7u0.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <3BA7A931.7753566F@virgin.net>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:   > Robert Deininger wrote:  > G > > In article <ji2eqtoqeialj0g4i63paagb44et59g90c@4ax.com>, Alan Greiga > J > > The military did _initially_ decline to rule out a shoot-down.  Within2 > > about a day, they came back and said "no way". > >y > N > You would think they would know sooner. As of Sunday the FBI still would notI > rule out the shoot down option. I have not seen an FBI statement since.n  @ You are underestimating the level of confusion here on Tuesday.   H Also, the FBI isn't terribly well plugged-in to the defense department. ? DOD would NOT routinely share operational details with the FBI.l  I DOD would account for all its planes, and then announce that none of themfG had shot the passenger plane (if that was indeed the case).  They wouldcF NOT tell the FBI what all the planes had been doing -- especially with presidential security involved.r   --   Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:03:33 +0100s0 From: andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centers) Message-ID: <3BA897A5.5000102@uk.sun.com>v   John McLean wrote:   > Well stated Bill ! > F > I certainly don't endorse the methods of the terrorists but I submitH > that they believe they held some justifiable reasons to be upset about
 > US policiese  5 Some of the US's allies have reason to be upset aboutm; US policies as well particualarly in the area of terrorism.6  ; Most people in the UK support Bushes "War on Terrorism" but9< many would be happier if the US wasn't the largest source of9 funds for our own internal terrorist conflict in Northerno? Ireland. The ability of NORAID to raise funds in the US withoutn8 any interferance from the US government angered a lot of people over here.o  A Anyone stuffing money into the NORAID collecting boxes to supportS@ the boys in Northern Ireland was funding an organisation that at@ the time was pursuing a similar strategy to Bin Laden to achieve1 its aims (the use of violence against civilians).g  = They were also contributing to an organisation that had close-@ links with the network of Islamic extremist terror organisations= operating in the middle east. After the US bombing on Tripoli < the IRA received 120 tons of weapons to assist them in their campaign from Colonel Gadaffi.  F > I also think that a purely military approach to the problem is not aG > useful long-term solution.  It may in fact cause terrorists to becomer% > even more extreme in their methods.n > J > What is desperately needed is a review of why US actions should engenderG > this kind of anger and what steps the US should take to reduce this.  I > Compromises both large and small might be very justified if they resulti > in a more peaceful world.c > I > The US is certainly not the only country whose actions upset others buttG > mature leadership by the USA may do much to start to change attitudese
 > everywhere.i >  > 
 > John McLeanr >  >    >  > Bill Todd wrote: > B >> "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageI >> news:rdeininger-1309012346340001@user-2ive6o7.dialup.mindspring.com...o >> aN >>> In article <9nro9o$i7r$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>
 >>> wrote: >> t >> ... >> h >>  L >>> I'm in a cranky mood, and probably sound hotter than I am.  I'm reactingH >>> harshly to what appears to be something like sympathy for the fiendsE >>> behind Tuesday's attack.  I realize that many people don't intendo2 >>> sympathy, but they _appear_ to be offering it. >> aJ >> I think you need to pay more attention to the actual words than to yourB >> instinctive reactions to what you seem to be reading into them. >> 0 >>   Perhaps it's just an old@ >> vK >>> habit of bashing America, which is a favorite passtime for some.  Can't.8 >>> folks see that it's a poor time for such sentiments? >> 3O >> When people presume to speak for Americans (you even suggested so explicitlyeN >> in a portion I snipped above) and say things that I strongly disagree with,G >> it's *definitely* the appropriate time to express that disagreement.p >> e >> ... >> e >> c@ >>> Some folks seem to looking for nice things to say about some* >>> really rotten people around the world. >>  M >> You really aren't paying attention to what the people you're debating withu >> are saying. >> lK >> NO ONE has said anything 'nice' about the terrorists - unless you define N >> saying that they had reasons for what they did as 'saying nice things'.  DoN >> you truly believe that they *didn't* feel they had reasons, and that others% >> aren't upset for the same reasons?  >> t >> $& >>> Some folks seem to think we should@ >>> back down, in subtle ways.  (Let's not build tall buildings. >>  M >> That's a judgement call - very much like increased airport security.  It'seE >> only common sense to construct buildings so that they will surviveuL >> anticipatable disasters.  I'd like to believe that the world will reach aN >> point where the kind of disaster that happened Tuesday won't be one we haveO >> to worry about, but it's clearly not there at the moment - and how to get itiM >> there is very much what a lot of the current discussion seems to be about.n >> f >> u
 >>> Let's not ; >>> hit the terrorists, because then they'll hit us again.)h >> oO >> NO ONE has said anything about not hitting the terrorists, they've just saidnK >> to do it responsibly (and try to start addressing some of the underlyingd/ >> causes) to avoid creating *more* terrorists.  >> e >> e >>> Some folks seem toK >>> think we shouldn't take direct action against bad guys, just because wea >>> aren't perfect ourselves.d >> uH >> NO ONE has said, or implied, anything of the sort - at least not withM >> respect to those responsible for Tuesday's events.  If you're seeking somewK >> kind of blanket approval for going after anyone else you might choose tooJ >> consider a 'bad guy', dream on:  *that* requires a lot more discussion. >> 0 >> ... >> . >> @L >>> If I'm "beating my chest", it's only meant as a warning.  I don't expectL >>> anyone to pay attention to ME beating my chest.  I'm just surprised thatL >>> folks in some parts of the world act like we can be pushed and poked and  >>> we'll never really hit back. >> mG >> And that's almost certainly exactly the same attitude a lot of thosea) >> responsible for Tuesday's events held.b >> s >> dK >>>>> It is also a mistake to think that Tuesday was enough damage to deter I >>>>> America in the slightest.  It the grand scheme of things, it didn'tf >>>>   >> evenn >>  . >>>>> scratch our paint.  It just made us mad. >>>>  @ >>>> By all appearences, it made a lot of people stupid as well. >>> K >>> I wish you wouldn't call people who disagree with you stupid.  It's notl >> t
 >> polite. >> sN >> I'm often not all that tactful after the second or third time people simplyJ >> ignore the words they're responding to (at least if I think the subjectI >> under discussion is at all important).  But I'll try anyway this time.  >> a >> u& >>>>   There are many things Americans >>>> aC >>>>> might not understand about the rest of the world, but this is. >>>> o >> something >> hJ >>>>> the world seems to forget about America.  A reminder is forthcoming. >>>> e >> Whens >>  E >>>>> the bad guys fight back, we'll fight harder.  We'll win.  We'res >>>> f
 >> bigger, >>  " >>>>> meaner, and more determined. >>>>  K >>>> Why does such language remind me of Vietnam?  It wasn't true then, andh >>>  >> seems >> oF >>>> even less likely to be true now.  And, should you have any doubt, >>>  >> Americans >> oD >>>> like me will help ensure that, should this country move in that >>> 
 >> direction,r >> b >>>> just as we did then.n >>> M >>> I think I see what you meant, though a phrase or two seems to have gotteno >> o >> lost. >> eJ >>> The present situation doesn't remind me of Vietnam.  Any similarity ofE >>> language is probably an accident.  It reminds me of Pearl Harbor.  >> yL >> It's understandable that this reminds you of Pearl Harbor (some poll saysK >> that 66% think it's more serious than Pearl Harbor and another 25% thinkaD >> it's equally serious), but the resemblance is purely superficial. >> tL >> In 1941, an enemy attacked which if successful (and there was a very realN >> chance of that) could have eventually occupied America militarily, and thatO >> enemy succeeded in destroying a major portion of our own military ability tosJ >> prevent that from happening.  On Tuesday, an enemy attacked which couldL >> never, by any stretch of the imagination, defeat us militarily, let aloneN >> occupy us as a result, and destroyed perhaps 0.002% of our population and aM >> somewhat comparable percentage of our infrastructure.  I in no way mean tooL >> minimize what happened, but comparing it to Pearl Harbor in anything save >> shock value is preposterous.- >> - >> - >>> WeE >>> responded to that attack by attacking.  That's what I forsee now.e >> eA >> We responded by attacking those who had attacked us, and their0M >> formally-declared allies.  We did *not* start attacking countries (such asc7 >> some in South America) who were sympathetic to them.a >> > >>   >>> WeJ >>> didn't attack randomly then, and we shouldn't now.  We should fight to  >>> win, and then stop fighting. >> aJ >> Somehow 'not attacking randomly' doesn't reassure me that you're reallyH >> saying you're advocating limiting the immediate (and IMO justifiable)I >> reaction to those with direct involvement in Tuesday's events.  If I'mi- >> interpreting you incorrectly, I apologize.e >> t >> r1 >>>>   You might prefer a world where people like  >>>> t: >>>>> bin Laden could come out on top.  If so, tough luck. >>>> rK >>>> Nope:  we just want a world where there aren't enough people who feel,n >>>  >> with  >>  L >>>> at least some basis, that they have a desperate score to settle with us >>>  >> toa >> a3 >>>> fuel the activities of someone like bin Laden.w >>> L >>> Do you ever consider that they might be WRONG?  (Yes, I suspect you do.) >> pO >> It is possible both to feel that what happened Tuesday was WRONG and to feeloM >> that we ourselves bear some indirect portion of responsibility for it.  IfsJ >> you have trouble understanding that, think about it as the same kind ofN >> shared responsibility that other militant groups not directly involved (butM >> whom some seem to feel should be included in our response) may have had ino4 >> creating a climate that encouraged such activity. >> d >>  I >>> If America has any blame for Tuesday, I think it is that we toleratedo- >>> lesser attacks without a strong response.h >>> H >>> What to do about all the other folks who don't like us is a separateI >>> question, I think.  They don't have to like us, and perhaps we should M >>> change some of our policies.  But they mustn't attack us.  Is that in thec) >>> general vicinity of your own opinion?e >> s3 >> No, it's not.  But I'll explain how it could be.o >>  M >> When *we* don't like someone's policies, we don't do anything of the kind:hO >> we use the major forces at our disposal (economic, multi-national, sometimesSM >> military) to try to change them - even though in most cases their policies-M >> have little or no real impact on our country's operation.  In other words,lN >> we're absolutely impossible to ignore - even when we're not actively tryingO >> to affect someone, but just do so anyway because we're huge and most of theme> >> are tiny and we don't even notice when they get stepped on. >>  O >> Most of the people who *really* don't like us live in small, weak countries:nO >> no economic power, not much in the way of a military, no powerful friends togN >> intercede for them (especially since the end of the Cold War eliminated theL >> competition for their support).  Or, in the few cases where the countriesE >> have major assets (typically oil, in this context), they're run bytM >> governments those people hate about as much as they hate us for supportingh, >> them, or by governments that hate us too. >> yJ >> Given that these people have nothing we want, and that we don't seem toM >> think we need to pay attention to people who have nothing we want, how caneN >> they get our attention when they want us to change something?  The U.N. wasJ >> once at least an option, but since the end of the Cold War we seem moreO >> willing just to walk away from it when it starts saying things that we don'ti >> want to hear. >> nN >> So saying "They don't have to like us" sounds a lot like Marie Antoinette'sN >> possibly apocryphal "Let them eat cake":  *we* can easily get away with notM >> liking *them* without much of a problem, but the reverse is just not true.  >> 9O >> If the only means they have to get our attention when they feel screwed as a-M >> result of our actions is to attack us, that's what they'll do - even if wegI >> tell them, by whatever means, that "they musn't".  And the only way toqN >> prevent such attacks is either to eliminate all of them (that's called massD >> genocide and generally seems to be frowned upon, but it's hard toK >> differentiate it from what some people here seem to be advocating) or tob@ >> give them some other way to obtain an (*effective*) audience. >>  J >> Put such a mechanism in place, and then I can agree with your statementM >> above.  It still smacks a bit more of noblesse oblige than I'm comfortable.M >> with, but if we're going to be stuck being king of the hill for at least anO >> while the best we can do is reign as justly as possible (unless you'd preferaF >> to hand the reins over to the U.N., which is the only other obvious0 >> responsible course of action I can think of). >> t >>  ! >>>> And your approach seems veryl) >>>> unlikely to be the way to get there.e >>> M >>> Well, I haven't specified any particular approach, except to not toleratet >>> those who attack us. >>> ! >>> What approach to you suggest?i >>   >> I just did above. >> s >> dH >>>>> Please excuse my excited tone, if I've misunderstood your meaning. >>>> c >> I'm >>   >>>>> low on patience today. >>>> pJ >>>> You indeed misunderstood Paul's meaning, and in a manner that merited >>>  >> the >> oI >>>> response I gave it.  Hope you're more patient tomorrow:  if what youf >>> 	 >> reallyi >>  K >>>> want is punishment of those directly responsible for Tuesday's events, H >>>> there's no fundamental point of disagreement, and room for rational? >>>> discussion of what *other* reactions would be appropriate.r >>> M >>> If by "other", you mean "in addition" then I agree with you.  If you meana >>> "instead of", then I don't., >>  N >> I meant 'in addition'':  I don't believe anyone would disagree that one way3 >> or another there's a great deal more work to do.f >> p	 >> - billm >>   >>   >>> -- >>> Robert Deininger >>> rdeininger@mindspring.comm >> s     -- n Andrew Harrisong Enterprise IT Architectn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:38:15 -0400l2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade CentertL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1909010938160001@user-2ive7u0.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch% <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> wrote:-    M > > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  It.I > > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.n > > 	 > Robert,8 > I >  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviournH > on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrD > you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-(    D I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inH Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeD any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treatyJ requires.  That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  That there is NOT a war. H In advance of any specific plan of action, they have said that they willA not participate, period.  Are these the official positions of the1G governments in question, or just loose cannons who like to be petted by5 journalists and get on TV?  H As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if you wish to "educate" me.a  D Is it the position of the German government that the U.S.A. has beenG attacked, and that Germany is obligated to participate in our defence? cJ Will the participation be limited to words only?  I understand that later,I there could be objections to _specific_ proposed actions.  But the way iteC has been reported, it sounds like _everything_ has been ruled out. e0 Hopefully, this has just been sloppy journalism.  I In an immediate search, I haven't been able to find any of the referencestH I saw over the weekend.  There's just been too much to keep track of.  IF remember the Italian defense minister was quoted directly, but I don't. remember the official titles of the German(s).   -- O Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.como   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:29:44 -0400i5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>- Subject: Re: World Trade Center 2 Message-ID: <yJyoO4Bi6Um=myp1R5LvwzBOBBv5@4ax.com>  6 On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:32:52 +0200, Jan-Erik Sderholm <noone@home.com> wrote:@   >David Beatty wrote:> >> However, U.S. foreign policy mistakes are far outweighed by >> wins. >d >Wins for who ?t	 >The US ?m > 
 >Jan-Erik.  7     For both parties.  It's not a win unless both sidest, win.  Foreign policy is not a zero-sum game.   David R. Beattye   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:47:06 -0400o5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>u Subject: Re: World Trade CenterU2 Message-ID: <CZ6oO1QJe9q=sfobHxp73N2DqYF4@4ax.com>  D On 19 Sep 2001 01:31:02 -0700, Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White) wrote:  p >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote in message news:<XOulO2vPYQoztSgcn1e2ElifrBBZ@4ax.com>... >>  ? >>     This is twice you have suggested that the U.S. treat allo@ >> foreign countries equally.  Is this really what you want?  Do< >> you really want to put those countries that oppress their; >> citizens on an equal footing with those that allow theirn: >> citizens more freedom?  Think about the implications of >> that choice.i >xG >The USA has an incredible record of strongly supporting countries thatb@ >oppress their citizens, as long as they are on the side that isB >currently in favour, or against the side that is currently out of >favour! >lE >Iraq was a pal when Saddam was fighting the then baddies in Iran! WetF >even took it on the chin when he fired a missile at a US warship back >in the 80s. >h/ >Do you think Pakistan is a friendly democracy?t >sF >What about propping up right wing dictators in South America? HelpingF >overthrow Salvador Allende? Don't talk about supporting just the good >guys!  ?     I didn't.  U.S. foreign policy is not perfect and as I haveiC observed elsewhere in this thread, much was based on anti-communisma' and not pro-freedom since World War II.o  F >That's global politics, and I don't think we should get into it here.D >We (the allies) teamed up with Joe Stalin when he was useful to us,B >and then turned a blind eye when he slaughtered 20,000,000 of his
 >citizens.  :     Not to mention China and other oppressive governments.; The death toll for communism in the 20th century approaches>9 100,000,000.  How would you have propsed the situation beu handled?  E >>     While the surface record has shown an increase in temperature,eF >> satellite data, weather ballon data, and proxy data (tree rings andC >> ice thinkness) have not.  Why do you suppose that is and what doi, >> you think the most likely explanation is? >eD >Ice is disappearing! Whole chunks are falling off the Antarctic iceF >sheet. OK, come back whining when more and stronger hurricanes driven; >by higher ocean temperatures start hitting the west coast.a  A     Sections of the Antarctic ice sheet are indeed falling off ash< other sections are advancing.  As I've observed earlier, the: Little Ice Age ended around 1850 and the resulting warming- is the most likely cause of glacial retreats.a  ?     Also, according to weather balloon data and proxy data, thea; warming that has taken place since the Little Ice Age endede around 1940.  .     Hurricane activity appears to be cyclical.  H >> >Just because the USA is the biggest kid on the block it doesn't mean- >> >that it shoul dforget to act responsibly.y >>  E >>     No arguement there.  Despite the U.S. mistakes, I think you'lly? >> find this country acts more responsibly that many would have' >> you believe.s > C >I am not a US basher. Of course there are responsible people theredC >with good intentions, and the US has a lot to offer. I don't think  >that's under dispute at all!u  6     Thanks for these kind words, they are appreciated.   David R. Beatty>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:58:27 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <1n8hqto9tb91j8dv9mm994o4gn821ali35@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:04:48 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Roberts Deininger) wrote:     D >The defense department HAS said this, categorically and absolutely,( >several times.  No shoot down happened.  E And the FBI has stated categorically and absolutely that they are not D ruling that out. I saw journalists ask them point blank on Sunday if> they were ruling it out and they said  "No". The FBI is the USD investigating authority not the DoD.  Go phone them up and tell them to stop being so unpatriotic.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:01:05 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>g Subject: Re: World Trade Center 8 Message-ID: <k49hqt86tm2lkqp4esd8q6u4v33pmoarke@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:09:48 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert  Deininger) wrote:s  A >You are underestimating the level of confusion here on Tuesday. o  C You are probably correct and it isn't really productive to continue,2 this thread. - unless new evidence comes to light.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:45:26 -0600 (MDT) " From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Center G Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0109190829470.28920-100000@athena.csdco.com>u   Bill,p  C Thursday WSJ, page A20 has an article describing bin Laden's not socB competent organization and proposing Iraq and Sudan were involved.  H My own guess is that he is a spoiled rich kid who is fooling around withC terrorism and is the dupe of people more professional than himself.e  E Consequently, he fits the "a prime suspect" category rather than "the> prime suspect"  E A Persian friend agreed with an analysis that a terrorist network, aslJ opposed to governments, really can't function very well nor in a sustainedJ manner.  As he said, their heads are so full of hate there is not room for
 much else.  6 And that religion does not have a lot to do with this.  
 John Nebel    % On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Bill Todd wrote:k   > 5 > "John McLean" <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote in messageI& > news:3BA82951.D3EE5F31@dplanet.ch... >  > ...e > J > > Any idea how the authorities decided who the 18 alleged hijackers wereH > > ?  (I use the term alleged because it looks like there is some doubtG > > about the young Palestinian.)  Were the surnames a give away or was  > > there something else ? > K > One stewardess gave the seat number of one of them via cell 'phone.  More I > were tracked via rental records for cars left at airports with at least L > highly suggestive contents (such as flight manuals in Arabic).  Once a fewL > such leads turned up, they likely led quickly to other corroborating ones. > K > There do seem to be a lot of links to bin Laden in all this.  Whether any>H > are really conclusive rather than simply reflect the many threads thatJ > connect a bunch of different terrorist/dissident/whatever communities isL > less clear.  And the thought that some misleading evidence might have beenL > left intentionally, while a bit far-fetched, is not completely ridiculous:M > I hope we have something fairly solid (and are willing to provide it to thesN > Taliban in some manner - e.g., via a mutually-trusted intermediary who wouldL > not need to reveal really sensitive details, if any) before taking action. >  > - bill >  >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:47:16 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: World Trade Centere3 Message-ID: <k$7SXUdotS+$@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  [ In article <3BA7EF98.E6E85BF4@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:y >  > The original two-edged sword.s > I > Our "electronic babysitters" have evolved from early anime - Astro Boy,oI > Gigantor, StarBlazers and the like - to Doom and other violent computertJ > games. Some producers have announced that they will not release some newI > terrorism-oriented games - too late, the horse has taken the others and F > left the barn many hundreds of miles away. May as well just burn the* > barn down, for all the good it is now... > G > What we have wrought must ultimately destroy us, regardless of how/ifo > the U.S. responds. >    	Bad parenting is easy.u  + 	My son has graduated from Backyard Soccer,>A 	Backyard Football, Backyard Baseball to NHL 2000, NFL 2001, etc.oC 	He won't own or play the games that you see above unless he sneaksmD 	them and that would be a sign our relationship has hit rock bottom.  = 	And yes, he only gets so much time playing as his sister hasf> 	her Arthur games and our 3 year old just started playing "HowB 	things Work in Busytown".  The first game we ever owned and stillC 	 - 5 years later - one of the best.  Everyone likes building roadst 	and collecting garbage.   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:47:18 -0400e- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center 2 Message-ID: <m63q7.28989$Z2.401488@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:k49hqt86tm2lkqp4esd8q6u4v33pmoarke@4ax.com... >...E > You are probably correct and it isn't really productive to continueo > this thread.   Correct.  9 >                   - unless new evidence comes to light.o  
 Incorrect.   >...  7 Try alt.terrorism.world-trade-center or alt.politics ord, alt.this.has.nothing.to.do.with.vms instead.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:49:49 +0200b5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centere+ Message-ID: <3BA8CCAD.E0223F36@TeraPort.de>.   Robert Deininger wrote:a > > > In article <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch' > <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> wrote:  > O > > > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItuK > > > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.n > > >  > > Robert,e > >uK > >  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviouroJ > > on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrF > > you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-( > F > I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inJ > Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeF > any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treatyK > requires.  That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  That there is NOT a war.nJ > In advance of any specific plan of action, they have said that they willC > not participate, period.  Are these the official positions of theeI > governments in question, or just loose cannons who like to be petted byl > journalists and get on TV? > J > As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if > you wish to "educate" me.t > F > Is it the position of the German government that the U.S.A. has beenH > attacked, and that Germany is obligated to participate in our defence?L > Will the participation be limited to words only?  I understand that later,K > there could be objections to _specific_ proposed actions.  But the way ityD > has been reported, it sounds like _everything_ has been ruled out.2 > Hopefully, this has just been sloppy journalism. >   E  The position of the German government is that we will stay to the USeG according to the treaty. Now, has the US been attacked if you go by the H treaty? I am not being an expert, but as the very condemnable attacks ofH last week have so far not been linked to a *country*, the treaty may notA apply. If it could be proved that the attack was performed by (orl< ordered by) a *country*, then the treaty would be in action.  E  As for Germany, our Chancellor gave a speech today in the parliament G basically offering logistics and other military support. The parliament9? voted for it with 565 of 611 possible votes. In the speech, theeG Cahncellor also made clear that we are not at war. Not with any countryhF and not with the islamic world. He assured the parliament that GermanyH will not follow blindly into "adventures", but that we will have to take! risks (including military risks).>  -  Depending on your German, this may help you:  http://www.n-tv.de/2722843.htmle   Martin -- oB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309 7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111t5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:59:23 -0400s' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>d Subject: Re: World Trade Centere( Message-ID: <9oaiqi$heg$1@pyrite.mv.net>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-1909010938160001@user-2ive7u0.dialup.mindspring.com...> > In article <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch' > <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> wrote:h >t >kK > > > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?> ItK > > > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.. > > >c > > Robert,  > >>K > >  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviourgJ > > on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrF > > you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-( >  >>F > I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inJ > Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeF > any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treatyK > requires.  That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  That there is NOT a war.a  F What can one say?  They're right, unless you claim that *every* act ofI terrorism should be considered an act of war (which is at least somethinga  one could then debate properly).  I This 'war' of Dubya's is (or at least certainly should be) much more like.H the 'war on drugs' or even the 'war on poverty' than any of the Vietnam,L Gulf, or Korean wars, or even the conflict in Serbia/Kosovo.  He substitutedI the word 'campaign' at least once yesterday, and that term seems far more " appropriate (in multiple manners).  J > In advance of any specific plan of action, they have said that they will > not participate, period.  G Perhaps some of Colin Powell's rather rash statements made them nervouse7 about what they might be being asked to participate in.s  )   Are these the official positions of thenI > governments in question, or just loose cannons who like to be petted byt > journalists and get on TV?  J Since Powell's statements were indisputably our official positions, either would have been appropriate.   >tJ > As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if > you wish to "educate" me.i   Hope the above helps.    >tF > Is it the position of the German government that the U.S.A. has beenH > attacked, and that Germany is obligated to participate in our defence?  J It would certainly be understandable, given the questionable nature of ourL attitude toward what constitutes an appropriate response, for them to chooseJ not to take the above position.  Had we talked more rationally, they might. have inclined toward a broader interpretation.  L > Will the participation be limited to words only?  I understand that later,K > there could be objections to _specific_ proposed actions.  But the way itvD > has been reported, it sounds like _everything_ has been ruled out.2 > Hopefully, this has just been sloppy journalism.  K Hopefully, it reflects a desire by some NATO governments to rein in our ownjK rhetoric before it leads to something they won't wish to be a part of.  OneiL assumes that they would not have taken such a step had more private attempts been successful.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:59 -0400a5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centern1 Message-ID: <e24q7.347$YP.15708@news.cpqcorp.net>   : Bill Todd wrote in message <9o8ddo$iro$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >i  J The good news is that even the knee jerk liberals (of which I am generallyJ identified as one) in Washington agree with most of what I've said.  I canK honestly say I don't have a lot of faith in Dubya and the right wing to notR= go too far - but you can always count on 'em to do something.-  F I realize that there is nothing that can persuade you (Bill) from your0 position (or pretty much any position you take).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:23:48 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centero( Message-ID: <9oak8b$ie8$1@pyrite.mv.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:e24q7.347$YP.15708@news.cpqcorp.net...s >s< > Bill Todd wrote in message <9o8ddo$iro$1@pyrite.mv.net>... > >e >sL > The good news is that even the knee jerk liberals (of which I am generallyL > identified as one) in Washington agree with most of what I've said.  I canI > honestly say I don't have a lot of faith in Dubya and the right wing to  noti? > go too far - but you can always count on 'em to do something.n >uH > I realize that there is nothing that can persuade you (Bill) from your2 > position (or pretty much any position you take).  K The first step in persuasion is making some attempt to understand and reactiJ to what the person you're trying to persuade is saying.  Should you decideE to do so and start debating issues rather than misconceptions, actualn progress might well occur.   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:12:55 -0700 (PDT)!. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>- Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaqt@ Message-ID: <20010919121255.27013.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>  ! How long do you can trust in CA ?e. Here in Brazil, CA means "Comprar e Acabar" or Buy and Finish...i0 OpenVMS as an unique OS should have an option of/ unique database.... I vote for RDB and Cach=E9.g   Regards    FC=20       0 --- Randy Burlew <randall.burlew@srs.gov> wrote: > In article > 5 <20010917171237.86295.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>,  >=20" > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br says... > >b4 > >I dont know why Oracle still with RDB, because it# > >is a unique product for OpenVMS. . > >It should return to HP/Compaq and become an! > >unbundled product for OpenVMS.r > >, > >0. > >There is no Ingres, Sybase, or Informix for > >OpenVMS.p >=202 > (Open)Ingres runs well on VMS and CA is actively3 > supporting it. There are still a lot of VMS shops  > that run Ingres. >=20 > Randyd >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DrL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Do F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilo fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________- Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?a) Donate cash, emergency relief informationt7 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/c   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.522 ************************