1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 20 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 524       Contents: 2nd CD drive on a PWS500au Re: 2nd CD drive on a PWS500au Re: Alphaserver 8400 Re: Alphaserver 8400 Re: Alphaserver 8400 Re: Alphaserver 8400 Re: Alphaserver 8400 Re: Decnet Copy problem  Re: Decnet Copy problem  Exceed and OpenVms 7.3  Re: Feeling Better about Itanium  Re: Feeling Better about Itanium# Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...  Re: Good VMS news  IBM MQSeries Client ! Internet Gambling Losses Refunded 0 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.10 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1, Re: New installation from other node's image, Re: New installation from other node's image" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center   Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMS& Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage& Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage& Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage Signal handler example Re: Signal handler example Re: Signal handler example Re: Signal handler example! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? ! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? ! Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ? $ VAX-Alpha Migration: COBOL/BASIC/FMS5 Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?  RE: We are back from CETS  Re: We are back from CETS  Re: We are back from CETS  Re: We are back from CETSy Re: Which file to change!  Re: Which file to change!  Re: Which file to change!  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center RE: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center$ Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:36:55 +0200 , From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de># Subject: 2nd CD drive on a PWS500au ) Message-ID: <3BA9FF07.3000504@iaf.fhg.de>   O I got my PWS500au with a Toshiba CD-ROM XM-6302B which is connected to the 2nd  @ IDE port. This device is shown as dqb0.0.0.207.0 on boot prompt.K I added a 2nd CD-ROM which is a Acer CD-910E/JAS to the 1st IDE port. This  1 device is shown as dqa0.0.0.107.0 on boot prompt. P In SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM both CDs are mounted, in both are the Online Documentation F Library discs. Sometimes the MOUNT is ok, sometimes I get the message:& %MOUNT-F-IVADDR, invalid media addressP Both devices are shown under OpenVMS. If the MOUNT in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM fails a 3 MOUNT command on user level fails with the message: ( %MOUNT-F-IVBUFLEN, invalid buffer length  P I thought the Acer is the problem but this device is available and can be used. ; The Toshiba on IDE2 isn't available three times from eight.      Regards, --    ; *********************************************************** ; *                                                         * ; *  Theo Jakobus                                           * ; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  * ; *  Tullastr. 72                                           * ; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       * ; *  Germany                                                * ; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           * ; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           * ; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       * ; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  * ; *                                                         * ; ***********************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:57:27 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>' Subject: Re: 2nd CD drive on a PWS500au ' Message-ID: <3BAA11E7.13D2DAF7@home.nl>   S Every CD-Rom drive on a VMS system should be able to use 512 byte blocks instead of O the standard 4k blocks. Check if there is a jumper setting for 512 bytes on the  Acer.    Theo Jakobus wrote:   P > I got my PWS500au with a Toshiba CD-ROM XM-6302B which is connected to the 2ndB > IDE port. This device is shown as dqb0.0.0.207.0 on boot prompt.L > I added a 2nd CD-ROM which is a Acer CD-910E/JAS to the 1st IDE port. This3 > device is shown as dqa0.0.0.107.0 on boot prompt. Q > In SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM both CDs are mounted, in both are the Online Documentation H > Library discs. Sometimes the MOUNT is ok, sometimes I get the message:( > %MOUNT-F-IVADDR, invalid media addressQ > Both devices are shown under OpenVMS. If the MOUNT in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM fails a 5 > MOUNT command on user level fails with the message: * > %MOUNT-F-IVBUFLEN, invalid buffer length > Q > I thought the Acer is the problem but this device is available and can be used. = > The Toshiba on IDE2 isn't available three times from eight.  > 
 > Regards, > -- > = > *********************************************************** = > *                                                         * = > *  Theo Jakobus                                           * = > *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  * = > *  Tullastr. 72                                           * = > *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       * = > *  Germany                                                * = > *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           * = > *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           * = > *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       * = > *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  * = > *                                                         * = > ***********************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:01:42 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 ' Message-ID: <3BA98646.AC3819E4@home.nl>   G Don't know when it was last orderable, but you're absolutely right that C this is a strange proposal. The 8400 is a rather expensive beast in J maintenance and license (!) costs. The GS80 is very expensive too, and you@ realy should need the special capabilities of a GS80 (running inI 8-processor mode etc.) before it becomes an interesting machine. And even H then, I would go for a GS160 because it can be extended to a GS320.  The= GS80 can too, but only with the help of a forklift truck :-).   H So unless the software involved runs on old versions of VMS or Unix thanE can not handle processors beyound EV5x, or the hardware configuration H needs many PCI slots, I see no reason for a 8400. I would opt for a ES45
 in your case.        Alan Greig wrote:   H > Can anyone tell me when the Alphserver 8400 was last orderable as new?C > We've had  a proposal from a well known worldwide IT outfit which H > involves an AS8400 (with four 5/625 processors ) specified as new. I'dC > expected an ES40 (four processor 6/833) to be proposed or maybe a , > GS80. Some dates would help me query this. >  > -- > Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:07:29 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 8 Message-ID: <oe8jqt4ne39hekqjmcqmsqd5mlkv2lrvof@4ax.com>  C On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:01:42 +0200, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote:   H >Don't know when it was last orderable, but you're absolutely right thatD >this is a strange proposal. The 8400 is a rather expensive beast inK >maintenance and license (!) costs. The GS80 is very expensive too, and you   B Yes the proposal involves upgrading a VAX 7700 cluster to a singleE 8400 and recurring costs increase. An internal proposal involving two B ES40s has far lower ongoing license and support costs plus it is aA cluster with each ES40 over double the cpu power/bandwidth of the & single 8400 and at lower cost upfront.    I >So unless the software involved runs on old versions of VMS or Unix than F >can not handle processors beyound EV5x, or the hardware configurationI >needs many PCI slots, I see no reason for a 8400. I would opt for a ES45  >in your case.  A None of the above applies. Problem with the ES45 is it is not yet < generally orderable. Supposedly because Compaq does not haveF sufficient manufacturing capacity left to even satisfy "very important
 customers" >  >  >  >Alan Greig wrote: > I >> Can anyone tell me when the Alphserver 8400 was last orderable as new? D >> We've had  a proposal from a well known worldwide IT outfit whichI >> involves an AS8400 (with four 5/625 processors ) specified as new. I'd D >> expected an ES40 (four processor 6/833) to be proposed or maybe a- >> GS80. Some dates would help me query this.  >> >> -- 
 >> Alan Greig    -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 04:50:57 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 3 Message-ID: <TvAEyXKCHPho@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <oe8jqt4ne39hekqjmcqmsqd5mlkv2lrvof@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  C > None of the above applies. Problem with the ES45 is it is not yet > > generally orderable. Supposedly because Compaq does not haveH > sufficient manufacturing capacity left to even satisfy "very important > customers"  I Possibly some of those "very important customers" got even more important  on September 11th.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:52:56 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 ' Message-ID: <3BAA10D8.5F8FFBA4@home.nl>    Alan Greig wrote:   E > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:01:42 +0200, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote:  > J > >Don't know when it was last orderable, but you're absolutely right thatF > >this is a strange proposal. The 8400 is a rather expensive beast inM > >maintenance and license (!) costs. The GS80 is very expensive too, and you  > D > Yes the proposal involves upgrading a VAX 7700 cluster to a singleG > 8400 and recurring costs increase. An internal proposal involving two D > ES40s has far lower ongoing license and support costs plus it is aC > cluster with each ES40 over double the cpu power/bandwidth of the ( > single 8400 and at lower cost upfront.  J Well, unless your supplier comes up with a very good reason why you need aJ 8400, I frankly would not trust him anymore. Seems he has a unused 8400 inO stock somewhere, and tries to sell it to a customer who is stupid enough not to  know what he is doing.O And please, don't forget the storage. With most applications the performance of M the storage is more important than the performance of the system. Go for SAN, O it's the only real option that Compaq offers anyway these days, and it is realy  veeeeeryyyyyyy fast.       >  > K > >So unless the software involved runs on old versions of VMS or Unix than H > >can not handle processors beyound EV5x, or the hardware configurationK > >needs many PCI slots, I see no reason for a 8400. I would opt for a ES45  > >in your case. > C > None of the above applies. Problem with the ES45 is it is not yet > > generally orderable. Supposedly because Compaq does not haveH > sufficient manufacturing capacity left to even satisfy "very important > customers" > >  > >  > >  > >Alan Greig wrote: > > K > >> Can anyone tell me when the Alphserver 8400 was last orderable as new? F > >> We've had  a proposal from a well known worldwide IT outfit whichK > >> involves an AS8400 (with four 5/625 processors ) specified as new. I'd F > >> expected an ES40 (four processor 6/833) to be proposed or maybe a/ > >> GS80. Some dates would help me query this.  > >> > >> --  > >> Alan Greig  >  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 00:26:36 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 - Message-ID: <87bsk5omkj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   K > Possibly some of those "very important customers" got even more important  > on September 11th.  = Think they many have some de-crypting to catch up on Larry ;)    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:46:24 +0800 ' From: "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem0 Message-ID: <9ocro0$t483@imsp212.netvigator.com>   The exact error message is:   
 In Node B:
 ========== $ NCL SHOW NODE B + NCL-E-REQUESTFAILED, command failed due to: 4 -CML-E-SESSPROB, error returned from session control- -IPC-E-TIMEDOUT, no response from application < -NET-F-REMOTEDISCONN, connection disconnected by remote user  E When use $NCL SHOW NODE 0, it will work as it only read from it's own 	 database.   , DECnet copy will return the following error: $ DIR B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::D %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::*.*;* as input/ -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed * -SYSTEM-F-LINKEXIT, network partner exited  L But on the other hand, it could DECnet copy from other nodes in the network,3 but not the other node can DECnet copy from Node B.   : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:RMtfh9v2p7S9@eisner.encompasserve.org... > > And what is the error in the log file on the remote system ? > < > In article <9obcg3$krj5@imsp212.netvigator.com>, "Kenneth" <chehon@netvigator.com> writes: L > > But the DECnet Copy still fail even I have change to the correct syntax. > > < > > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message0 > > news:QF5q7.29036$Z2.402303@nnrp1.uunet.ca...2 > >> "Paul Sture" <paul@sture.ch> wrote in message* > >> news:VA.0000044d.105bc702@sture.ch...I > >> > In article <9o8m83$dke1@imsp212.netvigator.com>, VMS Novice wrote:  > >> > > I have added the line" H > >> > > IF F$MODE = "NETWORK" then EXIT in SYLOGIN, but the decnet copy still 
 > >> fail. > >> > >( > >> > Common mistake. That should read: > >> >* > >> > IF F$MODE .EQS. "NETWORK" then EXIT	 > >> >...  > >>
 > >> Actually  > >>, > >> $ IF F$MODE() .EQS. "NETWORK" then EXIT > >> > >> will work a lot better :)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:39:11 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem/ Message-ID: <3BAA0D6D.6D315438@cableinet.co.uk>    Kenneth wrote: >  > The exact error message is:  >  > In Node B: > ========== > $ NCL SHOW NODE B - > NCL-E-REQUESTFAILED, command failed due to: 6 > -CML-E-SESSPROB, error returned from session control/ > -IPC-E-TIMEDOUT, no response from application > > -NET-F-REMOTEDISCONN, connection disconnected by remote user  G Doesn't look good. DECNET name resolution is not working on B probably.    > G > When use $NCL SHOW NODE 0, it will work as it only read from it's ownh > database.  > . > DECnet copy will return the following error: > $ DIR B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::F > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::*.*;* as input1 > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed , > -SYSTEM-F-LINKEXIT, network partner exited > N > But on the other hand, it could DECnet copy from other nodes in the network,5 > but not the other node can DECnet copy from Node B.  >   18 so, I repeat my previous question, what is the result of= a "$ set host b" from a? ie is there any DECNET functionalityn at all from A to B?   D Also, are you saying you can copy from other nodes to B but not from? A to B, or that you can copy from A to other nodes but not froma A to B?i   regardse --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  T  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of T! my employers or service provider.T   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 07:05:53 -0700L From: ffrancillette@lucent.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9rick_FRANCILLETTE?=) Subject: Exceed and OpenVms 7.3W= Message-ID: <486786bf.0109200605.2afb482c@posting.google.com>R  E I'm using a PC with Reflection to connect to our Alpha servers. Now Ir1 would like to try Exceed to have CDE environment. D I'm not familiar at all with DECWindows so the first tests I've done are unsuccessfull. Thanks for any help.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:59:01 -0300d@ From: Leandro =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guimar=E3es?= Faria Corsetti Dutra ) Subject: Re: Feeling Better about ItaniumC& Message-ID: <3BAA2055.6030204@mac.com>   Bill Todd wrote:   > L > Higher-end servers won't be 'commodities' in anything like the same sense:    O 	But IBM (and perhaps Sun) will have a big advantage, selling high-end servers uN while sticking to POSIX systems.  OTOH, HP/Q and Irix will sell POSIX systems M in commodity servers; while Stratus, Unisys, big portions of HP/Q and others sH will either bleed by selling proprietary (Windows) systems on commodity M servers, or became just service companies in a competitive disadvantage over t open systems companies.   O 	Besides the open systems/RISC vendors the only other company I see gaining is TT Dell, the ber box-shifter.  If and when POWER or SPARC becomes popular it will make  S and sell such boxes incredibly efficiently with whatever OS is popular at the time.     J 	At the commodity market there is only one winner possible in each space. K Currently this is Dell in boxes, Intel in processors and Microsoft in OSs.  O But both Intel and Microsoft may be short-circuited, as they sell proprietary,  K commodity stuff; the only thing preventing their facing competition is the  L mistaken software patents system, which I deem to be unsustainable over the 
 long term.  R 	BTW, Mr Todd, I appreciate all the high-quality information you bring to the Net.         -- d   _tG / \ Leandro Guimares Faria Corsetti Dutra           +55 (11) 246 96 07rG \ / http://geocities.com./lgdutra/       BRASIL      +55 (43) 322 89 71 H   X  http://tutoriald.sourceforge.net./     mailto:lgcdutra@terra.com.brG / \ Campanha fita ASCII, contra correio HTML    mailto:leandrod@mac.com-   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 12:12:35 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)g) Subject: Re: Feeling Better about Itanium 3 Message-ID: <p99TD9iABeAe@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  i In article <3BAA2055.6030204@mac.com>, Leandro =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guimar=E3es?= Faria Corsetti Dutra  writes:q > Bill Todd wrote: >  >>  M >> Higher-end servers won't be 'commodities' in anything like the same sense:e >  > G > But IBM (and perhaps Sun) will have a big advantage, selling high-endr+ > servers  while sticking to POSIX systems.o  F That sounds good in theory, but the fact that VMS dumped Posix supportL for a while would tend to indicate it is not much of a sales differentiator.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:58:20 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> , Subject: Re: Getting back to the CPU wars...H Message-ID: <y47kuuw5dv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes:*  , > Not disagreeing at all but don't chipzilla. > control StrongARM (now xscale or some such)?0 > Surely ARM control ARM (or did I get confused  > somewhere along the line?)  E ARM still control the ARM architecture, I believe. XScale, used to belE StrongARM, results from DEC's architecture license which Intel boughtbE in the patent settlement. What that license allows in detail I dunno.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:35:46 -0300 @ From: Leandro =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guimar=E3es?= Faria Corsetti Dutra  Subject: Re: Good VMS news& Message-ID: <3BAA1AE2.3030806@mac.com>   Jan C Vorbrueggen wrote:  4 > andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> writes: > G >>I am currently working on a very large retail customers migration to *? >>UNIX from a host of systems that include a number of S390's. a > K > Please let us know who this is so that we can sell any shares we might be:- > holding in this copany as soon as possible.1    Q 	Your action will be justified only if the company together with S390 dumps also b) the management practices that go with it.c  P 	Unix is flexible.  That makes it as good or as bad as their users, programmers 0 and administrators -- mainly the administrators.         -- w   _iG / \ Leandro Guimares Faria Corsetti Dutra           +55 (11) 246 96 070G \ / http://geocities.com./lgdutra/       BRASIL      +55 (43) 322 89 71hH   X  http://tutoriald.sourceforge.net./     mailto:lgcdutra@terra.com.brG / \ Campanha fita ASCII, contra correio HTML    mailto:leandrod@mac.comu   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2001 23:51:48 -0700( From: ermak@cbr.ryazan.su (Yuri Ermakov) Subject: IBM MQSeries Client= Message-ID: <e6836292.0109192251.782f0544@posting.google.com>l   Hello !N  0 I use IBM MQSeries Client V5.1 for OpenVMS Alpha OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1 + Patches TCP/IP Service V5.0A - ECO 2 AlphaServer 1000A 5/400h  J I use put message into multiple queue (MQPUT1) using distribution list and6 receive error MQRC_UNKNOWN_OBJECT_Q_MGR (2086, 0x0826)   Yuri Ermakov   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2001 02:01:12 GMT! From: support@gamblersrecover.com * Subject: Internet Gambling Losses Refunded, Message-ID: <9o8u98$3g1$14185@nd.eastky.net>  + --_NextPart_00009120-000023EC-00AD91E6-E156  Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Proven steps to legally recover ! your Internet gambling losses arer now available!$ Visit http://www.gamblersrecover.com- --_NextPart_00009120-000023EC-00AD91E6-E156--    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:01:22 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) 9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 , Message-ID: <9oc0ni$d3g@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  0 In article <3ba8a7c5.91679197@news.process.com>,. Hunter Goatley <goathunter@goatley.com> wrote:B >I can't speak for Compaq, but based on what I know of the porting@ >effort for Mozilla, the source depends very heavily on featuresB >in the C RTL that simply didn't exist until VMS V7.2.  Colin has,C >I think, been bending over backwards to support the older versionssE >up to this point.  My guess is that the current sources have reachedeA >a point where it's just not feasible to keep fudging the missingu >pieces....d  E   It was my understanding that changes from Mozilla 0.9.4 through 1.0c' are mostly bug fixes, not new features.n   -- Vance Haemmerleo vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 07:48:33 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)t9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 , Message-ID: <9oc70h$egj@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  / In article <3BA8B2D4.9040508@compaqnospam.com>,o4 Mark Schafer  <mark.schafer@compaqnospam.com> wrote: >Vance,  >lE >I suspect it's due to Java.  The new J2SDK uses dynamic heap memory aH >allocation.  I had to raise PGFLQUO on all the accounts on the OpenVMS / >Java TestDrive.  I think that was new in V7.2.   ?    I don't think so.  According to the Mozilla release notes atpH http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/mozilla_relnotes.htmlJ 0.9.4 has latent support for Java already.  In order to use Java, you needD Java SDK 1.3.1-1 which is predicted to be out in late 2001 and will D require I guess 7.2-1.  However, 0.9.4 still works on the 7.1 series
 without Java.r   ---. Vance Haemmerle0 vance@alumni.caltech.edu     An   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:58:53 +0000'  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1n/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.003C5883.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P We have a number of nodes still running various versions of 7 [below 7.3] due toL the use of Oracle, the fact that Oracle won't test any of ITS prior versionsN against 7.3, and the fact that some tools are missing [according to our Oracle9 guys] from Oracle 8.1.7 [the version they would move to].d   Steve Sd        ; Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> on 09/19/2001 07:53:20 PM5    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)0J From:      Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>, 19 September 2001, 7:53 p.m.  0 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1        B How many people are still on 7.1-2? Is it still in wide use? Prior& version support for it ends this year.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:05:20 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 0 Message-ID: <00A0252B.1306C7BC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  m In article <20SEP01.01204145@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:e? >system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:l > - >-> Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> writes:pF >->>How many people are still on 7.1-2? Is it still in wide use? Prior* >->>version support for it ends this year. >-> M >->I am and I also have one box running UCX 4.2.  The latter because it has av+ >->feature that was dropped in TCP/IP V5.0.w >eH >Hi Brian. Which feature is that? They've restored several "features" inE >V5.1 that V5.0 dropped. The lack of SYS$REM_ID in V5.0 was one of myf= >show stoppers and the only reason for me to keep UCX around.a  ; With UCX I could have multiple interfaces with IPs such as:o   aa.bb.cc.ddm ee.ff.gg.hh  ii.jj.kk.llr  @ routing default traffic through aa.bb.cc.dd and still connect toA ee.ff.gg.hh and ii.jj.kk.ll.  TCP/IP V5.0 does not allow me to doeA this and thus I find no reason for the multiple interface featurew under TCP/IP V5.0.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             rJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:28:36 +0100r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>5 Subject: Re: New installation from other node's imagen) Message-ID: <3BAA1934.6B2AF307@127.0.0.1>    Kenneth wrote: > N > I want to to set up another VMS 7.2-1 node by restoring the system disk fromM > other node which also running the same OS. After restore, what setup I havecI > need to do in order not to make these node confused with one and other.r  % Did someone say "duplicate licences"?0  F You must ensure to remain legal and within the law you are not runningC with duplicate license databases. Copying system disks to duplicateo@ environments is not just a matter of changing paraters/settings.   -- o( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:36:45 GMTe3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>f5 Subject: Re: New installation from other node's image / Message-ID: <3BAA1AE9.9709EF9F@cableinet.co.uk>h   Nic Clews wrote: >  > Kenneth wrote: > >tP > > I want to to set up another VMS 7.2-1 node by restoring the system disk fromO > > other node which also running the same OS. After restore, what setup I haveeK > > need to do in order not to make these node confused with one and other.p > ' > Did someone say "duplicate licences"?  > H > You must ensure to remain legal and within the law you are not runningE > with duplicate license databases. Copying system disks to duplicatedB > environments is not just a matter of changing paraters/settings. >   A  F depends, if you're in a DEC Campus/CLSG (ie academic) environment then as 4C long as there is a base licence for each box then you should be OK.a -- o Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of -! my employers or service provider.+   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 12:10:18 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>@+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearoH Message-ID: <y44rpyw4tx.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:e  F > The only problem is, you'll never know the REAL reason for action or > inaction.   N In the sense that the public doesn't have quite the same information availableL as the decision makers, and certainly cannot read their minds, that is true.  ? > You'll make assumptions based on what, for example, the press F > might say or what another country might say, but you'll *NEVER* knowF > the real reason.  The US doesn't (and quite rightly so) ever discussJ > intelligence operations, and it's those operations and the data gathered5 > from them, that will be used in making decisions.     ; For one, this is anathema to a democratic and free society.E  G For another, sometimes the information that is provided can be verifiednH indepedently (e.g., Sudan), and the official information turns out to beG wrong. That raises (sometimes severe) doubts as to whether the decision I makers are basing their decision on valid information, or making rationaltI decisions at all. The next time they say, "trust us - we know what we arerH doing", it is the people's rights (if not duty) to have their doubts in  accepting things at face value.-  : > Or not.  We're at least a free society, if nothing else.  
 See above.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 05:43:39 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearp3 Message-ID: <pEGq$n6u3oPx@eisner.encompasserve.org>r   In article <y44rpyw4tx.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:) > Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:a > G >> The only problem is, you'll never know the REAL reason for action or 
 >> inaction. e > P > In the sense that the public doesn't have quite the same information availableN > as the decision makers, and certainly cannot read their minds, that is true. > @ >> You'll make assumptions based on what, for example, the pressG >> might say or what another country might say, but you'll *NEVER* know,G >> the real reason.  The US doesn't (and quite rightly so) ever discuss.K >> intelligence operations, and it's those operations and the data gathered>6 >> from them, that will be used in making decisions.   > = > For one, this is anathema to a democratic and free society.- >   > 	Not so.  In the interests of national security and/or seriousB 	embarassment we lock things down for a while.  Took quite a while@ 	for WWII stuff to trickle out.  Here is an example of something" 	that is still under lock and key.  M Most of the work conducted by the Warren Commission, which concluded that Lee-H Harvey Oswald acted alone in the Kennedy slaying, has been opened to theG public, a move that has helped researchers evaluate _ and in many cases ) strongly criticize _ that investigation. e  K But the House committee, the only government investigation to conclude that O conspiracies were involved in either murder, ran out of money and was dissolvedm( before voting to release its documents.   M Without such a vote, the materials fell under the House's so-called ``50-yearPO rule,'' keeping congressional documents under lock and key for a half-century. o  @ 	Compare and contrast that to the Stasi.  I understand there wasB 	little left of their secrets.  But that's all in the past, right?  I > For another, sometimes the information that is provided can be verified J > indepedently (e.g., Sudan), and the official information turns out to beI > wrong. That raises (sometimes severe) doubts as to whether the decision K > makers are basing their decision on valid information, or making rationalBK > decisions at all. The next time they say, "trust us - we know what we aredJ > doing", it is the people's rights (if not duty) to have their doubts in ! > accepting things at face value.f > ; >> Or not.  We're at least a free society, if nothing else.- >  > See above. >   > 	Speaking of which...  nah... your collective past is too easy 	to beat you up about, right?)   				RobE   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 17:18:53 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>a+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear H Message-ID: <y4d74l6gbm.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:r  B > 	Compare and contrast that to the Stasi.  I understand there wasD > 	little left of their secrets.  But that's all in the past, right?  L Not at all, to both - there's such a large amount left over that today, moreL than ten years later, only a small amount has been analysed; and it is still+ very much in the present in people's minds.   @ > 	Speaking of which...  nah... your collective past is too easy > 	to beat you up about, right?   F Right, because then I might start asking about _your_ collective past.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:34:24 -0600e% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearvB Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010920092901.00aa02d0@raptor.psccos.com>  - At 04:10 AM 9/20/2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:s( >Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: >eH > > The only problem is, you'll never know the REAL reason for action or
 > > inaction.  >lO >In the sense that the public doesn't have quite the same information available M >as the decision makers, and certainly cannot read their minds, that is true.r >lA > > You'll make assumptions based on what, for example, the press H > > might say or what another country might say, but you'll *NEVER* knowH > > the real reason.  The US doesn't (and quite rightly so) ever discussL > > intelligence operations, and it's those operations and the data gathered5 > > from them, that will be used in making decisions.  > < >For one, this is anathema to a democratic and free society. > H >For another, sometimes the information that is provided can be verifiedI >indepedently (e.g., Sudan), and the official information turns out to be7H >wrong. That raises (sometimes severe) doubts as to whether the decisionJ >makers are basing their decision on valid information, or making rationalJ >decisions at all. The next time they say, "trust us - we know what we areH >doing", it is the people's rights (if not duty) to have their doubts in  >accepting things at face value.  H But what YOU are assuming is "the information must be invalid, thereforeH it must be proven to be valid"; or "our leaders are all idiots, we can'tK trust them to act intelligently".  I don't take that view.  In the world ofiK intelligence gathering, and in terms of national security, some information D MUST remain secret.  I don't see it as "the people's rights" to knowI everything at the time information is gathered; the responsibility of theoG nation to protect its people (including not only the safety and secrecytL of the intelligence-gathering assets, but also the people who must act basedI on the intelligence found - the soldiers/sailors/airmen or even agents oruM cops) must override in the immediate future the concept that "the people havet) a right to know everything all the time".t  ) And frankly, I have no problem with that.    ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |eI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |uI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+4   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:10:22 +0200 5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>0+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearn+ Message-ID: <3BAA14EE.D004FC0E@TeraPort.de>e   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > / > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:* > I > >       Compare and contrast that to the Stasi.  I understand there waseK > >       little left of their secrets.  But that's all in the past, right?n > N > Not at all, to both - there's such a large amount left over that today, moreN > than ten years later, only a small amount has been analysed; and it is still- > very much in the present in people's minds.g >   H  even worse, there is/was a lot of material that our intelligence peopleF were forced (politically) to hand over to intelligence agencies of ourE allies (maily the US) without ever having the chance to look it over. D The common suspicion is that it would reveal the amount of [illegal]F intelligence oprartions that our allies were/are conducting in Western
 Germay (BRD).   H  What is the quote: "with these allies, you don't need enemies ... " :-)   Martin -- -B ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309e7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111e5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759e   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 18:39:53 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>-+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear H Message-ID: <y4ited4y06.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:$  J > But what YOU are assuming is "the information must be invalid, therefore! > it must be proven to be valid";E  . Substitute "may" for "must", and I will agree.  L > or "our leaders are all idiots, we can't trust them to act intelligently".  H I don't think they are idiots (although some of them clearly are), but IH definitely don't trust them to act intelligently, especially if they areH allowed to hide things - heck, I don't trust myself in such a situation!  M > In the world of intelligence gathering, and in terms of national security, 8' > some information MUST remain secret. G  M As you note, there is a time scale attached to the MUST. I had the impressionhH you were using the timescale "forever", which I strongly disagreed with.  I > I don't see it as "the people's rights" to know everything at the time i > information is gathered;  I Here, you are attributing the timescale "one nanosecond" 8-) to me, whichsG I didn't say either. But such information should be released as soon asfE possible, not after 50 years or whenever the administration sees fit.s   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:58:13 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>c+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear-B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010920104931.00ad7830@raptor.psccos.com>  - At 10:39 AM 9/20/2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote:a( >Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: >gL > > But what YOU are assuming is "the information must be invalid, therefore# > > it must be proven to be valid";a >@/ >Substitute "may" for "must", and I will agree.t >'N > > or "our leaders are all idiots, we can't trust them to act intelligently". >iI >I don't think they are idiots (although some of them clearly are), but IhI >definitely don't trust them to act intelligently, especially if they areaI >allowed to hide things - heck, I don't trust myself in such a situation!l  D But in a representative republic (which the US is, it's *NOT* a trueH democracy, even the Constitution says that it's a republic), we do electK and appoint our leaders to do exactly that.  There is nothing the people ofiI the US can do if they don't like, say, Donald Rumsfeld's troop movements, D save for voting him out of office next term (by electing a differentK president).  We do not have the ability (and I wouldn't want it) to vote onn) each and every thing our government does.6  N > > In the world of intelligence gathering, and in terms of national security,( > > some information MUST remain secret. >uN >As you note, there is a time scale attached to the MUST. I had the impressionI >you were using the timescale "forever", which I strongly disagreed with.  >,J > > I don't see it as "the people's rights" to know everything at the time > > information is gathered; > J >Here, you are attributing the timescale "one nanosecond" 8-) to me, whichH >I didn't say either. But such information should be released as soon asF >possible, not after 50 years or whenever the administration sees fit.  M Here you construct a circular argument.  "We must release information as soon K as possible."  Who determines when it's possible?  The administration.  ButiK we can't wait for it to be released "whenever the administration sees fit".   I So, define "as soon as possible".  I agree, there are times when 50 yearsSM might be too long.  But by definition, "whenever the administration sees fit"VH is when information is released, and classifications de-classified.  TheL words "should be" are pretty much just emotional.  I "should be" lighter and* younger.  But that's not the cold reality.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+sI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |nI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |rI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |rI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+n   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 19:18:10 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> + Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearlH Message-ID: <y4ofo5n5m5.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:s  F > But in a representative republic (which the US is, it's *NOT* a trueJ > democracy, even the Constitution says that it's a republic), we do electM > and appoint our leaders to do exactly that.  There is nothing the people of K > the US can do if they don't like, say, Donald Rumsfeld's troop movements, F > save for voting him out of office next term (by electing a differentM > president).  We do not have the ability (and I wouldn't want it) to vote onn+ > each and every thing our government does.l  J Of course not. And thanks for the gratuitous lecture on political systems.  A Nonetheless, nothing in the above absolves the elected from theireG accountability. And a free flow of information is a necessary condition.F for that to occur. Indeed, I envy you the Freedom of Information Act -B we don't have that in this country and could certainly do with it.L (On the other hand, we thankfully also don't have the Official Secrets Act.)  O > Here you construct a circular argument.  "We must release information as sooniM > as possible."  Who determines when it's possible?  The administration.  ButNM > we can't wait for it to be released "whenever the administration sees fit".-  C No, you are constructing. There are objective ways of assessing thetI possibility of release. There is also, in cases of doubt, the possibilitydF to ask a neutral third party (for instance, three of the Supreme CourtE Justices) to arbitrate if the matter were of that import. It's mainlyME the current default that is wrong - in many cases you have to justifysG declassification when you should have to justify, explicitly, continuedi classification.k   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:36:02 -0600e% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010920112742.00b01960@raptor.psccos.com>  - At 11:18 AM 9/20/2001, Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: ( >Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:J > > Here you construct a circular argument.  "We must release information 	 > as soonsO > > as possible."  Who determines when it's possible?  The administration.  ButuO > > we can't wait for it to be released "whenever the administration sees fit".e >oD >No, you are constructing. There are objective ways of assessing theJ >possibility of release. There is also, in cases of doubt, the possibilityG >to ask a neutral third party (for instance, three of the Supreme CourteF >Justices) to arbitrate if the matter were of that import. It's mainlyF >the current default that is wrong - in many cases you have to justifyH >declassification when you should have to justify, explicitly, continued >classification.  I So, who are to be the arbitrators of this?  The Supreme Court has neither I the authority nor the clearance to release this stuff.  BY DEFINITION thenG intelligence organs of the nation along with the president are the onlyn= entities with sufficient authority and clearances to do this.   E You, like many others, automatically assume that the vast majority of,N information collected doesn't need a classification "after a reasonable time".M I agree.  But the problem is, like many other perceived problems with govern-sO ment practices, you (and I) don't know all the reasons something might maintaineL a classification.  And in national security measures, I would MUCH prefer toM err on the side of caution than on any other side.  And the only entities whosM REALLY know all the reasons for classifications are the entities you maintain < SHOULDN'T be making the decisions about "a reasonable time".  N All too often in this country, members of the legislative branch, for example,F have leaked vital information because it might have offended their ownK private values or even because it made them look good to show "look at what N *I* know".  The judicial branch has certainly not been immune to that, either.M And in the bottom line, they didn't give a damn why it might have been class-e$ ified as it was or who got hurt out.     ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+nI | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |mI | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |oI | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |vI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |iI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+b   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 01:03:13 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <$w1V2ECKDf6w@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  J In article <9ob0u3$hs$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  writes:m > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:cemWYZ+tFo$E@eisner.encompasserve.org...t >  > ...a > B >> Zealotry?  Come on.  Just trying to deflect Leftist propaganda. > M > Rob, you're not just an idiot:  calling anything you disagree with 'leftists. > propaganga' qualifies you as a real asshole. >   A         Yes Leftist.. as in "please try not to define me but I am I         against what you are for."  Funny how the leftists and anarchiststF         come out.  Folks we never see here before spouting Chomsky, heF         of anarchist fame.   My main argument against Leftists is theyG         subvert social cohesion.  They attack success and status.  TheyrH         align themselves with anarchists and glory in the good old days:  - http://www.cspc.org/books/thoughts/15tips.htma  L Gone are the glory days of the anti-Vietnam war protests, the pro-SandinistaM parades, and the anti-Reagan rallies. Overnight, the Left has lost its reasonaK for being. This must be especially frustrating for the new generations that M aspire to be leftists but really don't know how. It is hard not to feel sorryf for these people.   N This is where I come in. I offer my services to individuals who, for their ownN personal reasons, yearn to pursue the idea of socialism -- and its twin idealsM of "social equality" and "social justice" -- despite the pathetic collapse ofg their worldly incarnations.     >         Back in the "good old" anti-Vietnam days.  They don't L         ascribe to justice in the strictest sense.  They ascribe to "social O         justice" which leads inevitably to "victimhood."  Everyone's a victim, nI         and a feedback loop is established to attack those of status thatt         are oppressing them.  K         But my recent Stalin baiting had its desired outcome - no response!0  - http://www.cspc.org/books/thoughts/15tips.htmj  J For instance, a typical leftist will be necessarily outraged at a positiveM statement about Ronald Reagan, but wouldn't think of showing mild indignation-I at an "intellectual exercise" in which the crimes of Stalin are put "intoa# context," and made more palatable. e  :         A wise Leftist *never* jumps at Stalin baiting ;-)  D         But shucks, the author needs to revise his work and come out5         with a new revision, more pertinent would be:   J For instance, a typical leftist will be necessarily outraged at a positiveN statement about George W. Bush, but wouldn't think of showing mild indignationI at an "intellectual exercise" in which the crimes of Stalin are put "into # context," and made more palatable. p  L         Or for the pathologically sarcastic lot that have no respect for ourL         President (or people of status for that matter) substitute: "Dubya"          for George W. Bush.    >>@ >> Your idea of Justice would be to sit them down, talk to them,G >> educate them, listen to them.  Apparently, 80%+ of Americans say the:- >> proper response is to strike back at them.w > L > And they're just as wrong as when a similar percentage were supporting ourK > well-intentioned but ill-advised efforts in Vietnam.  But we'll fix that,a > just as we did then. >   M         Utter nonsense.  Vietnam can't be drawn as a parallel.  I defy you topI         trot out similarities.   We aren't anticipating the glory of the  L         "good old" anti-Vietnam days returning, are we?  "We'll fix that."  L         Please... I believe most of the anti-Vietnam folks have aged to the F         point of becoming good old Republicans and the college kids atM         George Washington University tried to ask McCain tough questions lastoL         night but - trust me - little hope of them "getting" it (protesting)M         and for the most part are outraged at the attack.  Vietnam does seem mE         to be a recurring theme on your part.... hmmmm , interesting.e  L         Hey, as an aside... did you catch the mayor of Oakland (Jerry Brown)I         defending the Calfornia lady that was the lone dissenter?  It was'L         classic FondaVision.  I had to keep pinching myself as I wasn't sure5         I was dreaming listening to good old Jerry...t  #                                 Robe  M "The real point against pacifism is that is is not a cause at all, but only alO  weakening of all causes.  It does not announce any aim; it only announces that N  it will never use certain means in pursuing any aim.  It does not define its K  goal; it only defines a stopping place, beyond which nobody must go in the   search for any goal."#                 -- C.K. Chesterton e   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:10:49 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-7d4RByzI3534@localhost>t  F On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:40:33, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote:   > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3BA7F5EB.8C949617@fsi.net...- > > Alan Greig wrote:- > > >-= > > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:27:16 -0500, "David J. Dachtera" $ > > > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > > >  > > > >  > > > > G > > > >Does Pakistan have ballistic missile submarines? We have them...  > > > J > > > Pakistan remains a Commonwealth country. We really don't want to getJ > > > to the stage of it asking for help from Britain against a US attack.% > > > This is just getting silly now.- > >4L > > Why would Pakistan do that? When did we ever threaten them with anything2 > > besides fallout (conventional, nuclear, etc.)? > 4 > http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s368582.htm > N > "Musharef is going to have to come down on one side or the other. I think ifL > he decides to resist our efforts to deal with Afghanistan. And our effortsH > will involve at a minimum over-flights of Pakistan, conceivable movingN > troops on the ground through Pakistan, then we're going to have to tell themK > we're going to do it anyway if we have to fight our way across Pakistan."a > L > Same interview I just referred to in another post.  He states clearly thatL > neutrality - normally considered reasonable for a state caught between twoI > warring factions neither of which it completely agrees with - is not aneL > option for Pakistan.  Of course, this is only the *former* U.S. AmbassaborI > for Counter-Terrorism, not a current official - but I think it at leastn# > helps justify Alan's observation.  > M > As for your own comment, while Pakistan does not have nuclear submarines itlM > does have nuclear weapons.  If we act so as to cause these to fall into the-J > hands of those we've made sufficiently angry with us by, say, sending anD > invasion force through the country against its wishes (here's thatJ > cause-and-effect thing again), we could conceivably see them used in, orN > just off the coast of, one or more of our major cities:  perhaps you weren'tH > around for the 'quiet man with a heavy suitcase' scenarios in the '50sM > before missile delivery systems became popular, but I remember them all too M > well.  Pakistan does not need England's help to be a threat if we mishandle- > it sufficiently.   [snip]  F I'm back in Germany now so I only get to know what the UK reaction is  when I get a paper at the w/e. t  E However, as Alan indicates, such an event would put the UK between a  ; rock and a hard place along with many other members of the eE Commonwealth, e.g. Canada, Australia, India, Nigeria, etc,etc. There eF are people of Pakistani origin in many of the commonwealth countries. F There are a fair number in Germany and other european countries, aside
 from the UK. s   -- i Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:10:46 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)G( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-pH2edVF1lTey@localhost>g  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:03:45, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:e   >  >  > GreyCloud wrote: > >  > > David Beatty wrote:i > > >oL > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote: > > >t& > > > <most or previous posts snipped> > > >o: > > Quite true.  That was sort of what I was leading into.C > > Cool heads should take a very close look at the data.  Binnies'-< > > money, for all that he has, is held in various places...C > > but I don't think he keeps it under his mattress.  By ferretingkE > > thru the records with some smart IT professionals we may possiblytD > > put a stop to terrorism... without money they won't even be ableH > > to buy a twinkie anywhere.  Arms sales is another lucrative businessF > > that should be discouraged, but I feel it will be a difficult task > > to stop arms sales.t > G > Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IsI > think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  ThedB > idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the > violence and civil unrest. > I > IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it.f  B Possibly on the grounds that 'it might be bad for the US economy'  perhaps?   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:27:05 -0400n' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>i( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9oc5lh$13m$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:$w1V2ECKDf6w@eisner.encompasserve.org...nK > In article <9ob0u3$hs$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>g	 > writes:m > >o< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:cemWYZ+tFo$E@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > >n > > ...  > >AD > >> Zealotry?  Come on.  Just trying to deflect Leftist propaganda. > >nF > > Rob, you're not just an idiot:  calling anything you disagree with 'leftist0 > > propaganga' qualifies you as a real asshole. > >r >iC >         Yes Leftist.. as in "please try not to define me but I ami$ >         against what you are for."  E Which is complete bullshit in the current context.  If you don't knowlG *precisely* by this point what I and others with like views are for andaH against in this matter, you haven't paid any attention - which of course would hardly be the first time.l  '   Funny how the leftists and anarchistseH >         come out.  Folks we never see here before spouting Chomsky, he >         of anarchist fame.  K More bullshit.  Almost all the people who seem to share my views are peopleh5 we've both been acquainted with here for a long time.s  ,    My main argument against Leftists is they" >         subvert social cohesion.  I By that definition you'll be hard-pressed to find any in this discussion,gK unless you're so self-centered that you define 'subverting social cohesion'-J as being against what you happen to be for.  And don't try to define it asD being against the view of the (current) majority:  that leads to theC conclusion that the 'pro-life' movement, being in the minority, are 	 leftists.o  ! > They attack success and status.i  J Not from any evidence you'll find in *this* discussion:  it attacks crimesG against humanity, and it's only incidental that *some* of those who may-J commit such crimes are facilitated in their ability to do so by wealth (be< they individuals like bin Laden or countries like the U.S.).     TheyJ >         align themselves with anarchists and glory in the good old days:  H More crap (have you become so captivated by your deluded generalizationsD that you've lost *all* ability to analyze situations in their actualF detail?).  All the discussion here has centered around *which* actionsH governments should take, not *whether* governments should exist (leavingL aside the rather major intrinsic gulf between anarchy and most positions one' might consider to be socially liberal).n   > / > http://www.cspc.org/books/thoughts/15tips.htm   H So you're more than just a religious fruit-cake.  Try some American Nazi( Party material next:  you might like it.  E ... <drivel from your 'reference' that you seemed to believe had someo6 relevance, plus a bit more you added for good measure>  L > For instance, a typical leftist will be necessarily outraged at a positive! > statement about George W. Bush,t  L Gee, I've even made a couple of mildly positive and hopeful statements about3 him recently.  Fit that into your generalized crap.d   ...i  J >         Or for the pathologically sarcastic lot that have no respect for our 9 >         President (or people of status for that matter)   L Some people choose to respect others for who they are rather than what their 'status' may be.   ...e  > >         Vietnam can't be drawn as a parallel.  I defy you to  >         trot out similarities.  K I admit that there are *some* differences.  For example, I now have a greatsD deal less tolerance for smug, self-righteous pricks who sit in theirI armchairs and feel free to consign whole populations of non-combatants on L the other side of the world to misery and death because they likely won't beJ able to retaliate (the essential point of similarity that you've dismissedL so casually each time it's been raised).  And effective retaliation by thoseL we anger may now be a good deal more feasible today than it was then - whichL would please me no end if I could be sure that it would fall on those who've
 earned it.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 04:08:07 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <4mWXpBglCAxE@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  R In article <9oc5lh$13m$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes: > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:$w1V2ECKDf6w@eisner.encompasserve.org...eL >> In article <9ob0u3$hs$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>
 >> writes: >> >= >> > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message,2 >> > news:cemWYZ+tFo$E@eisner.encompasserve.org... >> > >> > ... >> >E >> >> Zealotry?  Come on.  Just trying to deflect Leftist propaganda.y >> >G >> > Rob, you're not just an idiot:  calling anything you disagree withe
 > 'leftist1 >> > propaganga' qualifies you as a real asshole.  >> > >>D >>         Yes Leftist.. as in "please try not to define me but I am% >>         against what you are for."T > G > Which is complete bullshit in the current context.  If you don't knowoI > *precisely* by this point what I and others with like views are for and,J > against in this matter, you haven't paid any attention - which of course! > would hardly be the first time.f >   A 	We/us?  As in?  Tell us a view... you raise this shadowy elusiven= 	"view" thing and yet there are probably 300-500 views raiseda9 	in the last 8 days.  And yet, below you talk about this:    > N > Gee, I've even made a couple of mildly positive and hopeful statements about5 > him recently.  Fit that into your generalized crap.y >    	Kettle Black!    0 >> http://www.cspc.org/books/thoughts/15tips.htm > J > So you're more than just a religious fruit-cake.  Try some American Nazi* > Party material next:  you might like it. >   ? 	Very good.  Instead of trotting out or specifically counteringeB 	points made, you go into attack mode.  Weak... very weak.  But ahA 	well, guess when you are running out of steam, not much else butu 	a good old attack.t   > M >> For instance, a typical leftist will be necessarily outraged at a positivem" >> statement about George W. Bush, > N > Gee, I've even made a couple of mildly positive and hopeful statements about5 > him recently.  Fit that into your generalized crap.  >   C 	Gee, perhaps feeling a bit sheepish after W Webb called you on thei" 	carpet for this plopper of yours:  P "Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feel they haveN the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any who actuallyJ start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killing all of them -E whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it.":   - bill  B 	Guess we file that one away as one of your more memorable quotes, 	eh?     > ? >>         Vietnam can't be drawn as a parallel.  I defy you tot! >>         trot out similarities.B > M > I admit that there are *some* differences.  For example, I now have a greateF > deal less tolerance for smug, self-righteous pricks who sit in theirK > armchairs and feel free to consign whole populations of non-combatants onaN > the other side of the world to misery and death because they likely won't beL > able to retaliate (the essential point of similarity that you've dismissedN > so casually each time it's been raised).  And effective retaliation by thoseN > we anger may now be a good deal more feasible today than it was then - whichN > would please me no end if I could be sure that it would fall on those who've > earned it. >   E 	You will admit some differences?  Give me a break... again for good n	 	measure:T   >>@ >> Your idea of Justice would be to sit them down, talk to them,G >> educate them, listen to them.  Apparently, 80%+ of Americans say theg- >> proper response is to strike back at them.  > L > And they're just as wrong as when a similar percentage were supporting ourK > well-intentioned but ill-advised efforts in Vietnam.  But we'll fix that,r > just as we did then. >   M         Utter nonsense.  Vietnam can't be drawn as a parallel.  I defy you toeI         trot out similarities.   We aren't anticipating the glory of the tL         "good old" anti-Vietnam days returning, are we?  "We'll fix that."  L         Please... I believe most of the anti-Vietnam folks have aged to the F         point of becoming good old Republicans and the college kids atM         George Washington University tried to ask McCain tough questions lasttL         night but - trust me - little hope of them "getting" it (protesting)M         and for the most part are outraged at the attack.  Vietnam does seem iE         to be a recurring theme on your part.... hmmmm , interesting.   L         Hey, as an aside... did you catch the mayor of Oakland (Jerry Brown)I         defending the Calfornia lady that was the lone dissenter?  It wastL         classic FondaVision.  I had to keep pinching myself as I wasn't sure5         I was dreaming listening to good old Jerry...    ---e   	Spell out the parallels Bill!  = 	Tell us Bill... I'm sure you have great plans... tell us why   G "they're just as wrong as when a similar percentage were supporting our J  well-intentioned but ill-advised efforts in Vietnam.  But we'll fix that,  just as we did then."  ) 	tell us all how you are going to fix it.s   				Robe 	s   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:31:11 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>w( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y4g09iw6n4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  E > > Terrible as it was last Tuesday bore little relation to a nuclear J > > attack. If you think it did I hope America does not have to experience# > > the difference on her own soil.sJ > I really don't believe you.  I think, the more Americans get killed, theL > happier you'll be.  That's certainly the impression you've given recently.  ; You're out of your mind, or living in an alternate reality.d   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:33:49 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>p( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade CenterH Message-ID: <y4d74mw6iq.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:.  7 > > Start by correcting the "scumbags" in the US first.  > Namely ... ?  J The CIA, the NSA, the DEA, certain parts of the State Deparment and of the judicial system?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:04:13 +0000e  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.003CD2D7.00@quegw01.btyp>o  > --0__=YEqzmPp275Jw7wtLVkEF9hjEmy7GeTmbZbobq7bJxLvLoykpyi72e76w, Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline ! Content-transfer-encoding: base64y    L Q29udGFjdDogICBUZWw6IDMwNjMgIC0gIElTIC0gSW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUsIDFzdCBGbG9vciwgL QnJpZGdlIFN0cmVldCBQbGF6YQ0KDQoNCkFuZCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlICdGcmllbmRzIG9mIFNpL bm4gRmVpbicgd2hpY2gsIGl0IHdhcyByZXBvcnRlZCB0aGlzIG1vcm5pbmcsDQpoYXMgcmFpc2VkL IKM0LjVtIGluIHRoZSBsYXN0IGNvdXBsZSBvZiB5ZWFycyBpbiB0aGUgVVMuDQoNCkJ1dCBhZ2FpL biwgbXkgb3duIGZlZWxpbmcgaXMgdGhhdCBtb3N0IG9mIHRoaXMgaXMgZHVlIHRvIGEgbGFjayBvL ZiBrbm93bGVkZ2UgYW5kDQp1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBJcmlzaCBwcm9ibGVtcyBhbW9uL ZyByYW5rIGFuZCBmaWxlIFVTIGNpdGl6ZW5zLg0KDQpTdGV2ZSBTcGlyZXMNCg0KDQoNCg0KYW5kL cmV3IGhhcnJpc29uIDxhbmRyZXcubm9zcGFtQHVrLnN1bi5jb20+IG9uIDA5LzE5LzIwMDEgMDQ6L NDA6NTYgUE0NCg0KVG86ICAgICAgICBJbmZvLVZBWEBNdmIuU2FpYy5Db20NCmNjOiAgICAgICAgL IChiY2M6IFN0ZXZlIFNwaXJlcy9ZZWxsb3dQYWdlcykNCkZyb206ICAgICAgYW5kcmV3IGhhcnJpL c29uIDxhbmRyZXcubm9zcGFtQHVrLnN1bi5jb20+LCAxOSBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMjAwMSwgNDo0MA0KH ICAgICAgICAgICBwLm0uDQoNClJlOiBPVDo6IFJlOiBXb3JsZCBUcmFkZSBDZW50ZXINCg0K> --0__=YEqzmPp275Jw7wtLVkEF9hjEmy7GeTmbZbobq7bJxLvLoykpyi72e76w* Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inlined         David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Bob Koehler wrote: > M >> In article <9o6g8u$eqk$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>h writes:. >>N >>> Unfortunately, there are a bunch of idiots out there who seem to feel theyN >>> have the right to *play* God and rain down indiscriminate terror.  Any whoP >>> actually start to do so need to be stopped, and if that takes killing all ofO >>> them - whether they be terrorists or world leaders like our own - so be it.e >>F >>    Those idiots are now spread across the middle east, northern andG >>    eastern Africa, Europe, Canada, and the US, with perhaps a few in  >>    South America. >t >rC > To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, the U.S. does not foment or ) > support terrorism. Neither does Canada.a >   2 I hate to burst your bubble but the US has got its6 hands dirty many times, either directly or indirectly.  3 For directly take the US sponsorship of the Contras 8 in Nicaragua, for indirectly NORAID in Northern Ireland. Regards  Andrew Harrisone Enterprise IT Architectd      @ --0__=YEqzmPp275Jw7wtLVkEF9hjEmy7GeTmbZbobq7bJxLvLoykpyi72e76w--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:14:37 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9ocffk$f7j$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:4mWXpBglCAxE@eisner.encompasserve.org...a   ...r  * > tell us all how you are going to fix it.  I An actually reasonable statement, though perhaps not quite in the way youc	 meant it.y  I I think it's time for those of us who feel there's a real problem to stopsH bothering with whackos like Rob and start trying to put our efforts intoJ more productive areas.  One reason is because last night CNN chose to air,@ in parallel, on both its regular and 'headline news' channels, aD professionally-created (half-hour?) film on the evils of the Taliban government.r  L Now, I don't know how accurate that film was, but I *do* know is that it was: propaganda rather than news or even 'documentary':  it hadD emotionally-stirring background music, was professionally edited andL scripted (which is not to say that scenes may not have been real), and had aF definite point to make - effectively, that those guys are uncivilized,K blood-thirsty primitives whom the world would be better off without (*very*a3 reminiscent of some of the WW II propaganda films).   I Someone recently made the comment that Rumsfeld and CNN were hell-bent onoI having a real war, and this seems a pretty clear suggestion that they may-K have been right.  I had already noticed CNN's somber introductory music and@F "America's New War" theme but initially had written that off as normalH journalistic sensationalism.  I'm now inclined to retract my suggestionsH that Dubya might be more rational than some of Powell's early statementsJ suggested - not necessarily because I think he's as rabid as some of thoseC around him, but because I think they're likely able to manouver him J effectively regardless of his own (I suspect somewhat vague) inclinations.  J So it may well be high time for people who believe that a massive militaryL campaign is a really bad idea to start making their voices heard more widelyL than in local 'communities' like this one.  I have no idea what venues mightK be appropriate for finding people of like mind and organizing group action, I and would appreciate any pointers from those who may.  People outside theiI U.S. might find their own populations and governments more receptive thaneI seems to be the case here right now, and by generating awareness in theirsL own nations might help build up a counterweight to the current insanity over here.h  K It would be nice to find out that others more sensitive to the currents setwL in motion a week ago have already set such activities in motion, and that weH can just add our efforts to them.  I've heard of a couple of encouragingH reactions on college campuses, and if the current generation there is asJ ready to replace relative apathy by embracing an ideal as we were 40 yearsD ago (starting with the civil rights movement, which did not have theH potentially selfish component that demonstrating against the draft laterB provided) they will be a significant source of energy and support.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:00:17 -0400o' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>l( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9oci58$h25$1@pyrite.mv.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:nx41my1If2D9@eisner.encompasserve.org...oL > In article <9ocffk$f7j$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:d >: > >lE > > So it may well be high time for people who believe that a massive  militaryI > > campaign is a really bad idea to start making their voices heard more  widely. > > than in local 'communities' like this one. > >s >m> > Perhaps if all 10% of you get a bullhorn you might be heard.  ' Fuck off, Rob - you're a waste of time.h   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 05:52:47 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center3 Message-ID: <nx41my1If2D9@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  R In article <9ocffk$f7j$1@pyrite.mv.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:   > L > So it may well be high time for people who believe that a massive militaryN > campaign is a really bad idea to start making their voices heard more widely, > than in local 'communities' like this one. >   = 	Perhaps if all 10% of you get a bullhorn you might be heard.y  1 http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010914b.aspc  J The vast majority of Americans support the general idea of military actionH against the groups or nations responsible for Tuesday's attacks. SupportK levels, in fact, are generally at or around an extraordinary 90% level. The O most recent Gallup/CNN/USA Today poll, conducted Sept. 14-15, shows that 88% oflI Americans say they think the United States should take military action inoO retaliation for Tuesday's attacks. This is very little changed from the resultsiO of a Tuesday night Gallup/CNN/USA Today poll -- conducted immediately after theiO attacks -- that found a total of 92% of Americans who supported military actionyI of some type. In both polls, 10% or less were willing to say they did notdJ support military strikes in retaliation for the terrorist attacks. Two ABCG News/Washington Post polls also found that 93%-94% of Americans support*F military action against "the groups or nations responsible for today'sL attacks." A CBS News/New York Times poll conducted Thursday and Friday found 85% supported military action. t  @ 	Maybe you can recruit Jerry Brown and that lady from California 	to join in.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:11:16 -0400+ From: randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew)i( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <2001Sep20.081116.13115@srs.gov>  D In article <9oc5lh$13m$1@pyrite.mv.net>, billtodd@foo.mv.com says... >  >eI >So you're more than just a religious fruit-cake.  Try some American NaziI) >Party material next:  you might like it.n >o  
 Hey, Bill,  < You just mentioned the Nazi's, so I am declaring this thread officially finished...  > Now maybe we can do something constructive, instead of baiting angry and grieving people.   Randyt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:56:44 -0400 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <x+apO6dpmylR4ghOw=bgBMbMSABu@4ax.com>  D On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:   >e >l >GreyCloud wrote:m >> e >> David Beatty wrote: >> >K >> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote:s >> >% >> > <most or previous posts snipped>n >> >G >> > >Would it be possible to confiscate Bin Ladens funds??  The SEC is N >> > >investigating into those that knew in advance of the WTC and looking forA >> > >those who intended to sell short to make money off of this.e >> >? >> >     Possible but not wise strategically.  It appears thereo6 >> > were large put orders on both American and United: >> > within a week of the WTC/Pentagon attacks.  I've also7 >> > heard an unconfirmed rumor that Bin Laden investedR9 >> > in insurance regarding the WTC.  As a spokesman saidg< >> > on CNN last night, follow the money trail and see where >> > it leads. >> > >> ,9 >> Quite true.  That was sort of what I was leading into.gB >> Cool heads should take a very close look at the data.  Binnies'; >> money, for all that he has, is held in various places...tB >> but I don't think he keeps it under his mattress.  By ferretingD >> thru the records with some smart IT professionals we may possiblyC >> put a stop to terrorism... without money they won't even be able G >> to buy a twinkie anywhere.  Arms sales is another lucrative business>E >> that should be discouraged, but I feel it will be a difficult task  >> to stop arms sales. >'F >Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IH >think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  TheA >idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the  >violence and civil unrest.e > H >IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it. >i >a >John McLean  B     Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would haveA violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right to d Keep and Bear Arms).  F     Your implied assertion that less guns equates to less violence is  not necessarily correct.   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:08:50 -0400a5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>r( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <D+ipOw1uc6cmsrLCvvBMMHNfueqK@4ax.com>  D     I can't speak for other U.S. citizens, Steve, but your assertionB regarding issues of Ireland and Northern Ireland certainly applies to me.  F     However, the good news in Ireland is they have the fastest growing> economy in Europe over the last 10 years, averaging 9% yearly. See the article 7 http://www.objectiveamerican.com/archiveshow.cfm?id=735c< for more details.  Yet another example of why freedom works.   David R. Beattyo  E On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:04:13 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:   M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazap >  > N >And of course the 'Friends of Sinn Fein' which, it was reported this morning,8 >has raised 4.5m in the last couple of years in the US. >cQ >But again, my own feeling is that most of this is due to a lack of knowledge anddE >understanding of the Irish problems among rank and file US citizens.  >p
 >Steve Spirest >k >k >i >aE >andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com> on 09/19/2001 04:40:56 PM- > ! >To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come, >cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)O >From:      andrew harrison <andrew.nospam@uk.sun.com>, 19 September 2001, 4:40u >           p.m. >   >Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:41:11 +0000s  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.0050B068.00@quegw01.btyp>o  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    I In the UK, where the private ownership of firearms was outlawed after theeC Dunblane killings, gun crime has risen [according to SOME reports].    Steve Spires          I David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> on 09/20/2001 12:56:44 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages) N From:      David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>, 20 September 2001,            12:56 p.m.    Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Centere        D On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> wrote:   >r >n >GreyCloud wrote:e >> >> David Beatty wrote: >> >K >> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote:r >> >% >> > <most or previous posts snipped>e >> >G >> > >Would it be possible to confiscate Bin Ladens funds??  The SEC is N >> > >investigating into those that knew in advance of the WTC and looking forA >> > >those who intended to sell short to make money off of this.  >> >? >> >     Possible but not wise strategically.  It appears theret6 >> > were large put orders on both American and United: >> > within a week of the WTC/Pentagon attacks.  I've also7 >> > heard an unconfirmed rumor that Bin Laden investeds9 >> > in insurance regarding the WTC.  As a spokesman saidt< >> > on CNN last night, follow the money trail and see where >> > it leads. >> > >>9 >> Quite true.  That was sort of what I was leading into.dB >> Cool heads should take a very close look at the data.  Binnies'; >> money, for all that he has, is held in various places...hB >> but I don't think he keeps it under his mattress.  By ferretingD >> thru the records with some smart IT professionals we may possiblyC >> put a stop to terrorism... without money they won't even be ableiG >> to buy a twinkie anywhere.  Arms sales is another lucrative businesslE >> that should be discouraged, but I feel it will be a difficult task  >> to stop arms sales. >hF >Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IH >think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  TheA >idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the- >violence and civil unrest.  >eH >IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it. >a >. >John McLean  B     Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would have@ violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right to Keep and Bear Arms).  E     Your implied assertion that less guns equates to less violence ise not necessarily correct.   David R. Beattyk   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:50 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)t( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9ocv3m$37u$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>p  j In article <x+apO6dpmylR4ghOw=bgBMbMSABu@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:E >On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>a >wrote:g >  >> >> >>GreyCloud wrote: >>>  >>> David Beatty wrote:: >>> >:L >>> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote: >>> >nH >>> to buy a twinkie anywhere.  Arms sales is another lucrative businessF >>> that should be discouraged, but I feel it will be a difficult task >>> to stop arms sales.E >>G >>Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss I I >>think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  The B >>idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the >>violence and civil unrest. >>I >>IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it.L >> >>
 >>John McLeany > C >    Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would have-B >violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right to  >Keep and Bear Arms).s >z  K How does a ban on selling arms internationally break the second amendment ?mF The US already has some export restrictions on Arms sales doesn't it ?  J For that matter are there not any restrictions in the US to selling guns ?5 ie could someone sell a gun to say a 5 year old kid ?3  G >    Your implied assertion that less guns equates to less violence is k >not necessarily correct.i >t  J Experience in other countries tends to suggest less guns lead to less gun H related fatalities.  Although people in countries without widespread gunG ownership can use other means to kill people - knives etc Those methodsN& tend not to be as "efficient" as guns.* I have not heard of any drive-by Knifings.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >David R. Beatty >C   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:03:56 GMT-= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center0 Message-ID: <00A0254C.67E13F9F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <9ocv3m$37u$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:l {...snip...}K >Experience in other countries tends to suggest less guns lead to less gun sI >related fatalities.  Although people in countries without widespread gun H >ownership can use other means to kill people - knives etc Those methods' >tend not to be as "efficient" as guns. + >I have not heard of any drive-by Knifings.w  I In the case of Tuesday's attacks, it would seem that knives were far more / "efficient" as a mass murder weapon than a gun.r   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             aJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbess   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:16:36 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>g( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center2 Message-ID: <LgSqOwV2hzOHmxGEeXZAhel2bnkU@4ax.com>  B On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:50 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) wrote:-  k >In article <x+apO6dpmylR4ghOw=bgBMbMSABu@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:uF >>On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> >>wrote: >> >>>u >>>y >>>GreyCloud wrote:o >>>> t >>>> David Beatty wrote: >>>> >M >>>> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:45:29 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com> wrote:. >>>> >I >>>> to buy a twinkie anywhere.  Arms sales is another lucrative businessnG >>>> that should be discouraged, but I feel it will be a difficult taske >>>> to stop arms sales. >>>kH >>>Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IJ >>>think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  TheC >>>idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the( >>>violence and civil unrest.f >>>TJ >>>IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it. >>>k >>>s >>>John McLean >>D >>    Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would haveC >>violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right to   >>Keep and Bear Arms). >> >oL >How does a ban on selling arms internationally break the second amendment ?G >The US already has some export restrictions on Arms sales doesn't it ?b >eK >For that matter are there not any restrictions in the US to selling guns ? 6 >ie could someone sell a gun to say a 5 year old kid ?  D     I don't remember the exact wording of the resolution, but it wasC done in such a way as to severely restrict or ban handgun sales to ' normal, law abiding citizens.@  B     There are plenty of restrictions against gun sales in the U.S.; If memory serves, there are over 20,000 laws regarding gun  B restrictions is the U.S.  I'm not sure about sales to minors, but ? my instinct tells me that minors cannot purchase guns.  I know  % convicted felons cannot own firearms.h  H >>    Your implied assertion that less guns equates to less violence is  >>not necessarily correct. >> >wK >Experience in other countries tends to suggest less guns lead to less gun eI >related fatalities.  Although people in countries without widespread guniH >ownership can use other means to kill people - knives etc Those methods' >tend not to be as "efficient" as guns.r+ >I have not heard of any drive-by Knifings.n  8     What you don't hear about is how many times guns are9 used by citizens to thwart crime.  U.S. estimates are 1-2 : million annually and in only 2% of those is the gun fired. See ; http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/36733.htm.s  7     One of the other things you don't hear about is howr> violent crime is going down in the U.S.  Public schools in the? U.S. are also becoming safer, the recent tragedies in San Diegoh and Columbine included.v  :     John Lott did some interesting research regarding guns> and violent crime in his book "More Guns, Less Crime".  A page: that contains links to his online articles can be found at! http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm.n  :     Also interesting is that violent crime in the U.K. has3 increased in recent years at the same time that gune# sales are being further restricted.a   David R. Beattyr   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:39:23 +0000 (UTC) ' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)h( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9od2jb$4br$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>O  p In article <00A0254C.67E13F9F@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:V >In article <9ocv3m$37u$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb) writes:
 >{...snip...},L >>Experience in other countries tends to suggest less guns lead to less gun J >>related fatalities.  Although people in countries without widespread gunI >>ownership can use other means to kill people - knives etc Those methodsn( >>tend not to be as "efficient" as guns., >>I have not heard of any drive-by Knifings. >nJ >In the case of Tuesday's attacks, it would seem that knives were far more0 >"efficient" as a mass murder weapon than a gun. >  >--:  F No using planes was "efficient". The knives were an effective means ofE obtaining the real weapon. In the past other hijackers have used gunso% or other weapons to take over planes..  K If I were to jump a gun carrying American from behind and steal his gun andiH then start shooting people would my hands, which hit him, be the murder J weapon or the gun ? I tend to think I'd be charged as the murderer but the( weapon would be specified to be the gun.        
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:12:38 +0000 (UTC)t' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (D.Webb)s( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9od4hl$4vm$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>e  j In article <LgSqOwV2hzOHmxGEeXZAhel2bnkU@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:C >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:50 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukt >(D.Webb) wrote: >rl >>In article <x+apO6dpmylR4ghOw=bgBMbMSABu@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:G >>>On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>k	 >>>wrote:oI >>>>Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IeK >>>>think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  TheaD >>>>idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the >>>>violence and civil unrest. >>>>K >>>>IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it.s >>>> >>>> >>>>John McLean. >>>BE >>>    Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would havepD >>>violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right to  >>>Keep and Bear Arms).t >>>n >>M >>How does a ban on selling arms internationally break the second amendment ?4H >>The US already has some export restrictions on Arms sales doesn't it ? >>L >>For that matter are there not any restrictions in the US to selling guns ?7 >>ie could someone sell a gun to say a 5 year old kid ?  > E >    I don't remember the exact wording of the resolution, but it waszD >done in such a way as to severely restrict or ban handgun sales to  >normal, law abiding citizens. >mC >    There are plenty of restrictions against gun sales in the U.S. < >If memory serves, there are over 20,000 laws regarding gun C >restrictions is the U.S.  I'm not sure about sales to minors, but  @ >my instinct tells me that minors cannot purchase guns.  I know & >convicted felons cannot own firearms. >     < Ok. There are currently restrictions on gun sales in the US.< So does the second amendment actually mention selling guns ?H Or is it as suggested by "Right to keep and bear arms" purely to do with+ the ability of US citizens to own firearms.M  H I honestly don't know what the Second amendment says so it could well be# it explicitly mentions arms sales. oI Does it since otherwise I fail to see how restricting arms sales even to nM normal law abiding citizens can break it - and you have already admitted thatdK sales to other groups are restricted without breaking the second amendment.       I >>>    Your implied assertion that less guns equates to less violence is a >>>not necessarily correct.e >>>  >>L >>Experience in other countries tends to suggest less guns lead to less gun J >>related fatalities.  Although people in countries without widespread gunI >>ownership can use other means to kill people - knives etc Those methods ( >>tend not to be as "efficient" as guns., >>I have not heard of any drive-by Knifings. >d9 >    What you don't hear about is how many times guns areo: >used by citizens to thwart crime.  U.S. estimates are 1-2; >million annually and in only 2% of those is the gun fired.t >See< >http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/36733.htm. >t8 >    One of the other things you don't hear about is how? >violent crime is going down in the U.S.  Public schools in thei@ >U.S. are also becoming safer, the recent tragedies in San Diego >and Columbine included. >p; >    John Lott did some interesting research regarding gunst? >and violent crime in his book "More Guns, Less Crime".  A pagem; >that contains links to his online articles can be found atn" >http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm. > ; >    Also interesting is that violent crime in the U.K. haso4 >increased in recent years at the same time that gun$ >sales are being further restricted. >   % Mostly assaults, street muggings etc.eO I believe the murder/manslaughter rate in the UK is still far below that in theaO US as a percentage of population (even when including the Terrorist outrages of $ the combatants in Northern Ireland).    t
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 23:54:49 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center- Message-ID: <87g09hoo1i.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  / djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:r  F > However, as Alan indicates, such an event would put the UK between a< > rock and a hard place along with many other members of theF > Commonwealth, e.g. Canada, Australia, India, Nigeria, etc,etc. There< > are people of Pakistani origin in many of the commonwealthC > countries.  There are a fair number in Germany and other european. > countries, aside from the UK.1  B Well, Bo Blair need not worry about OZ... Out PM has his tounge so< far up Dubya it's obscene by even the standards of politics.     -- A< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:17:47 GMT0' From: zeeb@java.zko.dec.com (Jeff Zeeb)n) Subject: Re: Performce of Java on OpenVMSe1 Message-ID: <%%lq7.396$YP.16075@news.cpqcorp.net>   f In article <19e2ed27.0109191829.3fc06741@posting.google.com>, meetkrishnas@hotmail.com (krish) writes:] |>Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:<3BA86015.65CC79AB@gtech.com>.... |>> krish wrote:K |>> > We have developed a GUI for one of our product using Java. When i was0K |>> > testing this GUI on an OpenVMS ALPHA7.2-1 with JVM 1.3.0, i found theBK |>> > performance to be abysmal.Every buttom click would take a few minutessL |>> > to respond and display the contents on the screen. I observed the sameK |>> > behaviour on all other JVM,like 1.2 flavours(our GUI required JVM 1.2sH |>> > or more).But,the same GUI when run on a Windows machine, perform's |>> > very efficiently.p |>> >  ..> |>Yes, i have been running my GUI on a 256MB windows machine.  |>D |>And I should not be comparing 64MB with 256MB. Since i dont have aF |>windows machine with 64MB RAM, i am trying to get one to compare the |>performce. |>E |>I will get back to you folks once i do the testing on the 64MB RAM.> |>) |>Thanks for all you time and suggestion.< |> |>-Krish |>  B One other thing to consider is the issue of a remote display vs. a? local display.  When you are running on the VMS system, is your A display set to the same system, or are you displaying your gui onlC a different system, using the network?  Starting with Java 1.2, SunoD changed the way that graphics are rendered, so that instead of usingA standard X calls, the pixels are rendered using Java code and the G bitmaps are sent over the network.  This tends to give poor performance  for a remote display.B   --	 Jeff Zeebs zeeb@zko.dec.com  N "Daddy, my crayon doesn't work.  It needs a new battery" - Matthew (age 2 1/2)4 while trying to use a white crayon with white paper.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:55:09 +0100d% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage 8 Message-ID: <nu7jqt0ib5asbqmvdtlmfmqsran573p4b3@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:20:52 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoffe Hoffman) wrote:o  c >In article <Xns91218AF0981Ajimv50NOSPAMcom@140.99.99.130>, Jim Valley <jim_v50@NOSPAM.com> writes:e > O >:Is there any way I can limit the PERCENTAGE of processor used by a process?  f >:K >:I have a process that spikes every couple of minutes while it performs a tJ >:query, but I'd like to limit it to use only 10% of the processor at any 
 >:given time.  >eL >  Yes.  OpenVMS V7.3 and later includes support for allocating percentages H >  of the available processor time to group(s) of application processes.H >  Control of this is via enhancements that were made to SYSMAN in V7.3.  C I'm fairly sure "class scheduling" support (as TOPS-20 and possibly > TOPS-10 called it), which is what is being described here, was> specifically a "non-goal" in the DEC TOPS-20 =:> VMS migration@ document. Can't be many of these 'non-goals' left now other than command/filename completion.  -   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 04:49:11 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usagem3 Message-ID: <C2jRR8NdreCW@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  ` In article <nu7jqt0ib5asbqmvdtlmfmqsran573p4b3@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:G > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:20:52 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff  > Hoffman) wrote:a > d >>In article <Xns91218AF0981Ajimv50NOSPAMcom@140.99.99.130>, Jim Valley <jim_v50@NOSPAM.com> writes: >>P >>:Is there any way I can limit the PERCENTAGE of processor used by a process?   >>:sL >>:I have a process that spikes every couple of minutes while it performs a K >>:query, but I'd like to limit it to use only 10% of the processor at any   >>:given time. >>M >>  Yes.  OpenVMS V7.3 and later includes support for allocating percentages aI >>  of the available processor time to group(s) of application processes.uI >>  Control of this is via enhancements that were made to SYSMAN in V7.3.g > E > I'm fairly sure "class scheduling" support (as TOPS-20 and possiblyn@ > TOPS-10 called it), which is what is being described here, was@ > specifically a "non-goal" in the DEC TOPS-20 =:> VMS migrationB > document. Can't be many of these 'non-goals' left now other than > command/filename completion.  H Of course "class scheduling" was added to VMS many years ago -- the V7.3H changes just provide a canned implementation rather than a roll-your-own programming interface.  B When I complained about the many TOPS-10 features missing from theB early versions of VMS, I got the impression that internal politicsD were involved.  The VMS team apparently was composed mainly of folksA with an RSX background since TOPS and RSTS people did not want tos play.    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:57:39 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usagen3 Message-ID: <ENuq$fSwqYvw@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  h In article <Ga3q7.61103$TW.329998@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot> writes:  N > With the process priority (PRIO), all processes will have the same length ofN > time granted to them but processes in a higher priority will be gven the CPUN > more often than the ones in a lower priority. So that's a different consept.L > Both can live together. And again, if the process does an IO or has a waitL > of some kind the CPU will be given to another process at once, it does not( > wait for the time quantum to complete.  F    Which is basically what happens within the scheduler ever since VMSF    1.0, even without the new features in 7.3.  I don't see how the new)    features address the original problem.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:43:31 +0400 4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> Subject: Signal handler exampleo0 Message-ID: <3BA99E23.A473936F@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   Hi All!iT 	I looking for a C example of using an user written condition handler established by lib$establish.   	TIA.- --   Cheers,,F +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker........................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222SE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-32220F +http://www.levitte.org/~rlaishev/ .......... SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:27:08 GMTf2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)# Subject: Re: Signal handler example 1 Message-ID: <gVnq7.420$YP.16423@news.cpqcorp.net>>  g In article <3BA99E23.A473936F@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>, "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> writes:>G :	I looking for a C example of using an user written condition handler l :established by lib$establish.  D   You can use lib$establish directly, but the vaxc$establish call isE   also compatible with the the C signal mechanism -- if you are usingvD   C signals (as differentiated from OpenVMS signals in C), you will $   likely want to use vaxc$establish.  H   At its simplest, insert the following call into the top of the routine   that will field the signals:  %     vaxc$establish( lib$sig_to_ret );   F   The Freeware MXRN tool uses a signal handler, as does the Perl port,F   as does the zip tool.  There are other examples around, and you willE   want to review the OpenVMS programming concepts documentation.  (AssH   a start, you can search for any routines that call the CLI$ routines,    as the CLI$ routines signal.)a  J   The following pair of routines could have easily been coded as a single #   routine.  (But obviously wasn't.)U       ...g #include <chfdef.h>o #include <ssdef.h> #include <stdio.h> #include <stdlib.h>e #include <stsdef.h>g   ...   3 static int Mumble$$SignalHandler( void *, void * );l     ...t*   vaxc$establish( Mumble$$SignalHandler );   ...i   ..! #if defined( __VAX ) && ( __VAX )t ..
 static int* Mumble$$SignalHandler( void *SA, void *MA)     {r     int RetStat;7     struct chf$signal_array *SignalArray = (void *) SA;s3     struct chf$mech_array *MechArray = (void *) MA;s1     int DepthCharge = MechArray->chf$l_mch_depth;c       if ( DEBUG_ROUTINES ) U         fprintf( Mumble$L_LogFile, "Mumble: entering (VAX) Mumble$$SignalHandler(), co)             SignalArray->chf$l_sig_name);i  8     if (( SignalArray->chf$l_sig_name == SS$_UNWIND ) ||5         ( SignalArray->chf$l_sig_name == SS$_DEBUG ))r         return SS$_RESIGNAL;  B     RetStat = $VMS_STATUS_SEVERITY( SignalArray->chf$l_sig_name );'     if (( RetStat == STS$K_SUCCESS ) ||r"         ( RetStat == STS$K_INFO ))         return SS$_CONTINUE;       DepthCharge = 1;,     RetStat = sys$unwind( &DepthCharge, 0 );       return SS$_NORMAL;     }d #endif ..% #if defined( __ALPHA ) && ( __ALPHA )/ ..
 static int+ Mumble$$SignalHandler( void *SA, void *MA )      {t     int RetStat;
     int i;7     struct chf$signal_array *SignalArray = (void *) SA;P3     struct chf$mech_array *MechArray = (void *) MA;h5     __int64 DepthCharge = MechArray->chf$q_mch_depth;d     int *SigArg;       if ( DEBUG_ROUTINES )cU         fprintf( Mumble$L_LogFile, "Mumble: entering (Alpha) Mumble$$SignalHandler(),c+             SignalArray->chf$is_sig_name );o  !     if ( Mumble$L_DbgLevel > 99 )h	         { /         SigArg = &SignalArray->chf$is_sig_args;.@         for ( i = 0; i < SignalArray->chf$is_sig_args + 1; i++ )I             fprintf( Mumble$L_LogFile, "Mumble: SigArg[0x0%x] = 0x0%x\n",-,                 i, *(int *)( SigArg + i ) );	         }   9     if (( SignalArray->chf$is_sig_name == SS$_UNWIND ) ||e5        ( SignalArray->chf$is_sig_name == SS$_DEBUG ))m         return SS$_RESIGNAL;  C     RetStat = $VMS_STATUS_SEVERITY( SignalArray->chf$is_sig_name );n'     if (( RetStat == STS$K_SUCCESS ) ||c"         ( RetStat == STS$K_INFO ))         return SS$_CONTINUE;       DepthCharge = 1;,     RetStat = sys$unwind( &DepthCharge, 0 );     return SS$_NORMAL;     }> #endif ..    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:09:22 -0500tC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>I# Subject: Re: Signal handler examplegI Message-ID: <craig.berry-5F2D6C.12092220092001@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>r  1 In article <gVnq7.420$YP.16423@news.cpqcorp.net>,n4  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:  H >   The Freeware MXRN tool uses a signal handler, as does the Perl port,  G I don't think Perl does, unless this is something you folks have added bC to the version of Perl you support.  If so, or if you've added any -F other bug fixes or enhancements, please roll these back into the open % source version when you get a chance.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:42:35 -0400x  From: jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil# Subject: Re: Signal handler examplea0 Message-ID: <01092013423529@beast.dtsw.army.mil>  F "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote on" Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:09:22 -0500 in> <craig.berry-5F2D6C.12092220092001@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>:  3 > In article <gVnq7.420$YP.16423@news.cpqcorp.net>,46 >  hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote: > J > >   The Freeware MXRN tool uses a signal handler, as does the Perl port, > I > I don't think Perl does, unless this is something you folks have added d% > to the version of Perl you support.h  9 I use these in all my Perl scripts, since at least 5.5.3:    use English;B $SIG{INT} = \&sighandle;        # routine for <Ctrl-C> or <Ctrl-Y> sub sighandle {L     my( $sig) = @_;sG     print( STDERR "\nCaught SIG$sig -- shutting down $PROGRAM_NAME\n");      exit(0); }e  ) Isn't this done with a "signal handler" ?e  : Ed James                           ed.james@telecomsys.com5 TeleCommunications Systems, Inc.   voice 410-295-1919S; 2024 West Street, Suite 300              800-810-0827 x1919t5 Annapolis, MD 21401-3556           fax   410-280-1094s   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 13:43:25 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?% Message-ID: <9ocrpt$esn@web.nmti.com>e  ) In article <3BA879D8.FEAE030C@gtech.com>,r? Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?=  <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:i= > Nobody wants to spend ressource sdeveloping for a platform,e< > that is a dead end (and even though Alphas may be produced; > and sold for 10 year to come, then it is still dead afterm > the Itanium announcement).  % http://www.linux-vax.sourceforge.net/o http://www.linux-m68k.org/4 http://www.linux.sgi.com/ and http://linux-mips.org/   -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.nE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:37:22 +0200i= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>n* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?) Message-ID: <3BAA0D32.4CD01F3D@gtech.com>    Peter da Silva wrote:i+ > In article <3BA879D8.FEAE030C@gtech.com>, A > Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?=  <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote:v? > > Nobody wants to spend ressource sdeveloping for a platform,e> > > that is a dead end (and even though Alphas may be produced= > > and sold for 10 year to come, then it is still dead afteri > > the Itanium announcement). > ' > http://www.linux-vax.sourceforge.net/s > http://www.linux-m68k.org/6 > http://www.linux.sgi.com/ and http://linux-mips.org/  : What are the commercial support for those Linux variants ?  < Hobbyists work with what the think are fun. Business'es work. with what they think will make money for them.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:49:08 -07006' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>s* Subject: Re: SuSE Linux Desupports ALPHA ?+ Message-ID: <3BAA2C14.F8E8A989@caltech.edu>    Arne Vajhj wrote:   > Jerry Leslie wrote: - > >   http://www.theinquirer.net/18090105.htm.( > >   Linux on Alpha heads for the gulag >e& > Are anybody surprised over that ???? >   E No, not suprised.  However I'm betting the high performance computingn folks at Compaq are apoplecticE over most of the recent events.  The Q sold a lot of Alphas into thatiH lucrative niche, many if not most of which were  loaded with Linux.  NowG Q management has likely destroyed that market by dumping a heaping piler of FUD onto it.e  E What the engineers build the morons in management will take away :-(.t   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:03:27 -0400a  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com- Subject: VAX-Alpha Migration: COBOL/BASIC/FMS-4 Message-ID: <C2256ACD.005D72A1.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  0 We have an app that we need to migrate that uses FMS, COBOL, and BASIC.  2 Does anyone have any tips on what compiler options/ we should use and/or what to watch out for whene recompiling the pieces?o       -Normn   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:04:54 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)m> Subject: Re: VMS To Be Squeezed Out Of HP's Strategic Vision ?, Message-ID: <9oc0u6$d45@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  / In article <3BA8ACE3.6050607@compaqnospam.com>,m4 Mark Schafer  <mark.schafer@compaqnospam.com> wrote: >Vance,  >1J >I don't speak for VMS engineering, but since the Alpha architecture does H >not support H-float, my guess is that support on Itanium would be thru  >operating system emulation. >  >MarkC >c     Thanks Mark.  I   My mistake.  I thought REAL*16 in Fortran on Alpha was H_floating since 5 $ HELP FORTRAN DATA TYPE REAL says (for V7.1 anyway):l   ... I          REAL*16 (H_floating) numbers occupy sixteen contiguous bytes and,E          the precision is approximately 2**112, that is, typically 33           decimal digits.  G   But looking at the SPD says it uses X_floating, so I guess REAL*16 isM H_floating only on VAX.6   -- Vance Haemmerlen vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:51:40 -0400)* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>" Subject: RE: We are back from CETS- Message-ID: <0033000035825638000002L082*@MHS>    =0A(1)  Dick:  Hear, hear.  > (2)  Sue:  Glad y'all are home safely.  Can you help with (1)?   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET - > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:03 PMoD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET$ > Subject: RE: We are back from CETS >  >v > Sue, >I< >         I hope that in the not too distant future that the > majority of thesep; > materials will be made available to everyone, or at least  > every DECUS^H^H^H^H^H2= > Encompass member, not just those who expected to be able toB > attend CETS. >i >                 RDP  >h >  > Sue Skonetski wrote: >t+ > > Just received this from the CETS folks.> > >l< > > Presentations from Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium > 2001 available now!y > >m? > > Many of the presentations that were given or were slated toe > be given at CETS? > > 2001 are now available on line. Follow the directions below 
 > to find youy< > > preferred presentations. Note that not all presentations > are available; some : > > speakers do not want their materials posted, and other > speakers weren't ablec? > > to check in at the conference. We will continue to post newi > presentations as9 > > they come in to us. Also note that only attendees who  > actually registered @ > > for CETS 2001 will be able to access the presentation files. > >mH > > 1. Visit the portal site www.cets2001.com <http://www.cets2001.com>= .  > >  > > 2. Log in to the portal. > >wE > > 3. Select the option "Build My Schedule" from the left-hand menu.  > >0+ > > 4. Select the option "Session Catalog."g > >t8 > > 5. You can search for specific sessions if you like, > shortening the list of > > sessions to wade through.n > > ? > > 6. When you get the list of sessions, look for the documento > icon next to the8 > > session ID numbers. The sessions with that icon have > presentation materials > > posted on this portal. > >y< > > 7. Select your desired session and click on the document > icon. This bringsp4 > > up an index of files available for that session. > >s- > > 8. Select the files you want to download.o > >0 > > "e >o > --H > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=u9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DnD > Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerD > piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesD > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University >=   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:32:42 GMTl& From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com>" Subject: Re: We are back from CETS> Message-ID: <e6nq7.184500$aZ.32640836@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  H I wonder if the people that did register for CETS agree with the idea ofH keeping the information from  those us us that for one reason or anotherH could not register or attend.  After all, they paid for the privilege ofK seeing that information, and I did not.  However, it is not like I am goingaJ to use that information to gain a competitive advantage over them, or overG Compaq.  In fact,  the more information I have, the better able I am to H justify continuing using Compaq/VMS hardware, software and services.  ItJ seems to me that this would be to everyone's advantage.  As it is, most ofI the information that my company  receiving regarding Compaq-HP, is comingh2 from Compaq competitors.  Who is this benefitting?      = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message + news:G15q7.351$YP.15653@news.cpqcorp.net...s) > Just received this from the CETS folks.f >iI > Presentations from Compaq Enterprise Technical Symposium 2001 availables now! >sI > Many of the presentations that were given or were slated to be given at  CETSI > 2001 are now available on line. Follow the directions below to find you-I > preferred presentations. Note that not all presentations are available;o someI > speakers do not want their materials posted, and other speakers weren'ta ableK > to check in at the conference. We will continue to post new presentationsn asK > they come in to us. Also note that only attendees who actually registeredh> > for CETS 2001 will be able to access the presentation files. >gF > 1. Visit the portal site www.cets2001.com <http://www.cets2001.com>. >r > 2. Log in to the portal. >lC > 3. Select the option "Build My Schedule" from the left-hand menu.s >l) > 4. Select the option "Session Catalog."a > J > 5. You can search for specific sessions if you like, shortening the list of > sessions to wade through.r >sJ > 6. When you get the list of sessions, look for the document icon next to theaC > session ID numbers. The sessions with that icon have presentationc	 materials> > posted on this portal. >sL > 7. Select your desired session and click on the document icon. This brings2 > up an index of files available for that session. >t+ > 8. Select the files you want to download.  >o > "  >t >' >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:00:17 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) " Subject: Re: We are back from CETS0 Message-ID: <00A0254B.E578AFEC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <e6nq7.184500$aZ.32640836@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:nI >I wonder if the people that did register for CETS agree with the idea of I >keeping the information from  those us us that for one reason or another I >could not register or attend.  After all, they paid for the privilege ofe( >seeing that information, and I did not.  I I do not believe that is the case nor would I condone it if it were.  I'mrH still of the opinion that this information is for everybody.  I will notH attend NDA sessions and disseminate the protected information but any ofH the other information presented at CETS(DECUS) symposium was, and always should be, free to all.,   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.            nJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesc   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:28:38 -05009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow).# Subject: Re: We are back from CETSyP3 Message-ID: <BeuQ88jPZG+q@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  g In article <e6nq7.184500$aZ.32640836@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:iJ > I wonder if the people that did register for CETS agree with the idea ofJ > keeping the information from  those us us that for one reason or anotherJ > could not register or attend.  After all, they paid for the privilege of  L I wonder if the folks who took the time and effort to make the presentationsJ available also belive in restricting accss to them. It's certainly NOT the DECUS way...  M > seeing that information, and I did not.  However, it is not like I am goingoL > to use that information to gain a competitive advantage over them, or overI > Compaq.  In fact,  the more information I have, the better able I am toaJ > justify continuing using Compaq/VMS hardware, software and services.  ItL > seems to me that this would be to everyone's advantage.  As it is, most ofK > the information that my company  receiving regarding Compaq-HP, is coming 4 > from Compaq competitors.  Who is this benefitting?  L In the past, when my company wouldn't pay to send me to DECUS, they would atG least spend the $89 to buy the CD with all the session notes on them. I(K think I've got all of them since DECUS switched from paper to polycarbonite 0 distribution. I'd expect nothing less this time.    K They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safetyoJ deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania. 1759    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:06:34 -0400)' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>n" Subject: Re: Which file to change!< Message-ID: <howard-DCF6D0.02063020092001@enews.newsguy.com>  1 In article <uBdq7.378$YP.16078@news.cpqcorp.net>,;&  "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> wrote:  H > I strongly think that this problem is a configuration issue. Would you* > please help us in resolving the problem?  O Fix your X-window server.  Since that lives on the machine on which the window  O is supposed to appear, we'd need to know what X Windows server software you're _ using on what. -- i Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:10:11 GMTf2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)" Subject: Re: Which file to change!1 Message-ID: <nFnq7.418$YP.16384@news.cpqcorp.net>   X In article <uBdq7.378$YP.16078@news.cpqcorp.net>, "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes:; :I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.l2 :I am facing a problem with the following command. :n( :  create/term/detach/wind=(x=100,y=100) : I :I have tested this scenario on couple of VMS machines.  On one of them I$M :have been able to position the decterm at the specified coordinates. WhereasgK :on  another machine I am not able to position the decterm at the specifiedI :coordinate.  D   What happens?  Simple mis-positioning, or (for instance) does the    emulator fail?  A :(Note I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.fC :Both these machines use same version of DecWindows Motif and VMS.))  F   Please provide the specific OpenVMS and DECwindows versions, and theD   specific ECOs involved, and the details of the specific X Windows    emulator(s) involved.-  K : Is there any configuration that needs to be done on the VMS side for thisl2 :command to work properly on an X Window emulator?  J   OpenVMS and DECwindows does not know and does not care that an X WindowsC   emulator is involved.  OpenVMS and DECwindows do not particularlydJ   conditionalize what is set.  Since you clearly assume otherwise, you can5   use a tool such as xliddy to examine the X traffic.o  G :I strongly think that this problem is a configuration issue. Would youg) :please help us in resolving the problem?w     Pl    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:26:15 -0400e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n" Subject: Re: Which file to change!1 Message-ID: <pFpq7.425$YP.16396@news.cpqcorp.net>   H Bzzt.  The positioning of windows is ultimately controlled by the windowK manager.  The server ALWAYS puts windows exactly where it is asked to.  ButmG the window manager can (and often does) change it before it gets to thec server.y    # Howard S Shubs wrote in message ...i2 >In article <uBdq7.378$YP.16078@news.cpqcorp.net>,' > "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> wrote:o >mI >> I strongly think that this problem is a configuration issue. Would youl+ >> please help us in resolving the problem?n >eH >Fix your X-window server.  Since that lives on the machine on which the windowH >is supposed to appear, we'd need to know what X Windows server software you're >using on what.I >--  >Howard S Shubs E >"Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 06:10:50 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterJ5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-qqCVs7bV9i24@localhost>   ! User-Agent: ProNews/2 V1.51.ib102i        @ On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:38:15, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert  Deininger) wrote:   > > In article <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch' > <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> wrote:T >  > O > > > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?  ItsK > > > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.> > > >  > > Robert,? > > K > >  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviourdJ > > on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrF > > you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-( >  > F > I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inJ > Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeF > any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treatyL > requires.  That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  That there is NOT a war. J > In advance of any specific plan of action, they have said that they willC > not participate, period.  Are these the official positions of the:I > governments in question, or just loose cannons who like to be petted byn > journalists and get on TV? > J > As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if > you wish to "educate" me.F > F > Is it the position of the German government that the U.S.A. has beenI > attacked, and that Germany is obligated to participate in our defence? mL > Will the participation be limited to words only?  I understand that later,K > there could be objections to _specific_ proposed actions.  But the way iteE > has been reported, it sounds like _everything_ has been ruled out. x2 > Hopefully, this has just been sloppy journalism. > K > In an immediate search, I haven't been able to find any of the referencesoJ > I saw over the weekend.  There's just been too much to keep track of.  IH > remember the Italian defense minister was quoted directly, but I don't0 > remember the official titles of the German(s). >   C I think the position is roughly that Para 5 of the NATO treaty has ?F been invoked so it is case that NATO as a whole will act upon. Having F said that nearly all the countries have said that the US does not haveB a blank cheque to do what it wants and then expect the other Nato F countries to go along with it. My wife (german) is even of the opinionF that the article was invoked to help avoid the situation where the US  might go 'over the top'.   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  / Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:54:38 +0200 (MET DST)a& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: World Trade CenterD6 Message-ID: <200109200654.IAA26824@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  E the problem of the US politic is, that they do not have real friends.-B That's not why we would not like to be friends of USA. But the USAA do not do like friends. They do inform the investigators of otherOE countries not complete, only that information, what is needed to help B them. Also do the made what they want, without asking his friends.G They think, what we do, believe ... is our thing and must be understood J from everybody. Our friends must think same as we. But friendship is more.F Friends tolerate other mentions. So the USA must show all his friends,C that we are friends and not a possible market, or stratigical land.    Regards Rudolf Wingert  H P.S. Sorry, but I did never learn a good and correct english. But I hope you will understand my mention.o   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:30:07 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>d Subject: Re: World Trade CentereH Message-ID: <y4iteejmcw.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:g  M > Some we are caught between a rock and a hard place.  Do we "abandon" IsraelAL > simply because to *some* people there cannot *be* a solution that includesH > it's existance?  Bill Clinton spent a lot of time to try and bring theM > parties together, including using our "clout" with Israel to coerce them toeM > the table.  Did we get any credit for it?  No, in fact the radicals on both L > sides were pissed because NEITHER want the other side to exist.   RememberJ > that until the radical forces on BOTH sides caused it's undoing, we wereC > tetering on the brink of normal relations and peace in Palestine.0  M Indeed. And that's one of the major problems in these processes: the radicalslM diminish and (hopefully at some time) go away long after the vast majority of-N the groups of people concerned are tired of conflict and want a better future.B Northern Ireland is classroom example: First there are grass-rootsJ organisations of the "(wo)men on the street" promoting an end to violence,L then the political arms of the terrorist groups start talking about possibleM measures, then the terrorist groups themselves start considering disarmament  J - but then the "Real IRA" and dissidents within the IRA pop up and try to " bring the whole thing down again.   L In the middle east, unfortunately radicals on both sides are out of control,K and indeed participate in the government of both sides. Not a good startingl point. m  N > Will "talking" fix things?  Not likely.  Not even a formal apology will helpL > (an Iranian I was talking to before the return of the Ayatola) told me "WeJ > hate the U.S., and we will always hate you.  We want you to do the right9 > thing, but understand it will not change our hatred.". e  L The history of central Europe in the past century or so shows otherwise. ButM it does take a long, long time - and people from every generation commited tos> work on it in the face of opposition from popular opinion etc.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:41:33 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>. Subject: Re: World Trade CenterLH Message-ID: <y4g09ijltu.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  L > > > Nope.  The attitude that people responsible for Tuesday have ANY validI > > > point to make from now on is the dangerous one.  Whoever did it has.N > > > forever lost any moral claim or point of discussion.  If they ever had aH > > > valid complaint, it went away on Tuesday.  Destruction is the only > > > appropriate response.  r > > ! > > Have you ever raised a child?s >  > No,   3 That much was clear - it was a rethorical question.e  / > but what does that have to do with anything? .  J It has to do with selecting appropriate responses in the face of seemingly  irrational or asocial behaviour.  I > Shall we look for some child-like innocence in the attackers, and make 3 > appropriate allowances?   4 No to the first part, and sort-of-yes to the second.  J I was responding to your statement that, paraphrased, one should no longerI consider that "the people responsible for Tuesday have ANY valid point tokL make". If you were taking the analogous stance in raising a child, you wouldG make both your lives miserable and raise a non-functional human being -o< because _you_ are behaving as a non-functional human being.   6 Desctruction _never_ is the only appropriate response.  J But as you come from a country that seems to be proud of its membership inN that elite group that executes minors, that may be hard for you to understand.   	Jan  9 PS: Yes, that last sentence is a bit of a cheap pot-shot.    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:08:57 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, Subject: Re: World Trade CentermH Message-ID: <y4adzqjkk6.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  ; > > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:s > > % > > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?i > > M > > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's? > > chief executive? > K > The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someone as clueless as youqK > knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childish insults across the  > pond.a  I David Beatty and you are massively humour-impaired. Get professional helps urgently, if I may so suggest.  I Incidentally, the President of the USA still is the head of the executivedN branch, or has that changed recently? And he is an official of the government,. or has that also changed? There's CEO for you.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:06:07 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>h Subject: Re: World Trade CenteroH Message-ID: <y4d74mjkow.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  F > I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inJ > Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeF > any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treaty
 > requires.  f  L I have not seen _a_single_ such statement from anyone "official" in Germany.K The PDS (ex-SED, ruling parting of the ex-GDR) is of course against NATO inoL general and any military action in particular, and there are dissidents withE details of the official position even in the "ruling" parties (socialiN democrats and greens). But the government has been much more supportive of theK US, and the US request to NATO to declare this a case of paragraph 5 of the L NATO treaty and even provide military support, than anybody around here everI would have predicted (with very strong popular support, I might add) - inuL fact, I doubt the previous government by christian democrats would have been as supportive.  J With Italy's current prime minister, Berlusconi, being as right-wing as isM barely acceptable to a civilized country, I cannot imagine him not supportingtM the US in this. AFAIK, the two NATO countries to vote against the paragraph 5o- declaration were The Netherlands and Belgium.e  & > That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  G Absolutely nobody, not even the PDS and the dissidents mentioned above, L disuptes that. For more than a week, almost all other news have been crowded out. i   > That there is NOT a war. t  H Everybody disputes that, however. If you use it in the traditional senseL derived from international law, it definitely isn't - war is a certain stateL of the bilateral relationship of two sovereign states. If you use it looselyM (as in "war on <drugs, or whatever is close to your heart today>") is becomeso@ meaningless anyway, especially in the context of current events.  J > As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if > you wish to "educate" me.:  2 This just cannot count as "inaccurate reporting".    	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:13:36 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o Subject: Re: World Trade Center H Message-ID: <y47kuujkcf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:   > You've gotten it muddled.e [...] J > Eyewitness account have the Pentagon plane circling above the city for a4 > while before heading to the Pentagon and crashing.   You've gotten it muddled.t  M The plane had flown past the Pentagon, coming from the South, and had crossedeL the Potomac flying in the general direction of the White House. It then madeL a three-quarter circle turn to the right, at the end of which it was pointed# at the Pentagon. You know the rest.t > I > The Pennsylvania plane electronically filed a change of flight plan, touL > Washington DC, I believe.  Probably nobody knows who did this, since thereE > was no voice.  My memory may be wrong, it could have been New York.   # Definitely DCA. See CNN's web site.m   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:54:58 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>t Subject: Re: World Trade CenterCH Message-ID: <y4adzqw5jh.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  $ John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:  G > A Persian friend agreed with an analysis that a terrorist network, asiL > opposed to governments, really can't function very well nor in a sustainedL > manner.  As he said, their heads are so full of hate there is not room for > much else.  K Experience with, for instance, Germany's domestic terrorism in the 70's anddL 80's shows otherwise. And I think it would be fair to say they where severlyG hampered by (mainly financial) resources, not their ability to function$
 "rationally".p   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:41:53 +0100s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>d Subject: Re: World Trade Centern8 Message-ID: <v2ejqtgevn9uh5bq6lrcv4o9shdf4lk9ig@4ax.com>  . On 20 Sep 2001 11:06:07 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:   > ' >> That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.S >sH >Absolutely nobody, not even the PDS and the dissidents mentioned above,M >disuptes that. For more than a week, almost all other news have been crowdedo >out.  >a >> That there is NOT a war.  >uI >Everybody disputes that, however. If you use it in the traditional senseoM >derived from international law, it definitely isn't - war is a certain stateh  C Heard the NATO Secretary General interviewed on BBC Today programmeSE this morning. Stated that the US had not *formally* asked for supportcE from NATO countries in line with the treaty. That was expected in dueo course however.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:08:34 +0000o  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade Centert/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.003D3681.00@quegw01.btyp>h  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    N Perhaps our German contributors might be able to confirm this, but as far as IN am aware, the German constitution does not allow for its military forces to beJ deployed in any action [other than a peace-keeping role I believe] outsideL German borders. This might help to explain why they may be less hawkish, andC would wish for a more specific definition of what is being planned.t  N The only DEFINATE statement of the sort being mentioned that I have heard came1 from the Belgian's, who said 'we are NOT at war'.s   Steve Spires        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/19/2001 04:59:23 PMi    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)sJ From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 19 September 2001, 4:59 p.m.   Re: World Trade Center          ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message-F news:rdeininger-1909010938160001@user-2ive7u0.dialup.mindspring.com...> > In article <3BA85840.E54DE135@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch' > <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> wrote:- >r >eK > > > Didn't you folks opt out over the weekend?  Or was that mis-reported?M ItK > > > sounds like you guys don't take your NATO obligations very seriously.a > > >, > > Robert,1 > >1K > >  with all due respect - you just show the "typical uneducated behaviour:J > > on everything outside the US" that we actually fear outside the US. OrF > > you just want to discredit people whose beliefs you don't like :-( >  >aF > I'm reacting to numerous reports in our press that high officials inJ > Germany, Italy, and others have been saying that they do NOT acknowledgeF > any obligation to defend the U.S. against attack, as the NATO treatyK > requires.  That the U.S. has NOT been attacked.  That there is NOT a war.   F What can one say?  They're right, unless you claim that *every* act ofI terrorism should be considered an act of war (which is at least somethinge  one could then debate properly).  I This 'war' of Dubya's is (or at least certainly should be) much more likeoH the 'war on drugs' or even the 'war on poverty' than any of the Vietnam,L Gulf, or Korean wars, or even the conflict in Serbia/Kosovo.  He substitutedI the word 'campaign' at least once yesterday, and that term seems far moreg" appropriate (in multiple manners).  J > In advance of any specific plan of action, they have said that they will > not participate, period.  G Perhaps some of Colin Powell's rather rash statements made them nervous.7 about what they might be being asked to participate in.0  )   Are these the official positions of theMI > governments in question, or just loose cannons who like to be petted byt > journalists and get on TV?  J Since Powell's statements were indisputably our official positions, either would have been appropriate.   >oJ > As I said, it may not have been reported accurately.  Please explain, if > you wish to "educate" me.h   Hope the above helps.w   >uF > Is it the position of the German government that the U.S.A. has beenH > attacked, and that Germany is obligated to participate in our defence?  J It would certainly be understandable, given the questionable nature of ourL attitude toward what constitutes an appropriate response, for them to chooseJ not to take the above position.  Had we talked more rationally, they might. have inclined toward a broader interpretation.  L > Will the participation be limited to words only?  I understand that later,K > there could be objections to _specific_ proposed actions.  But the way it D > has been reported, it sounds like _everything_ has been ruled out.2 > Hopefully, this has just been sloppy journalism.  K Hopefully, it reflects a desire by some NATO governments to rein in our own K rhetoric before it leads to something they won't wish to be a part of.  OnehL assumes that they would not have taken such a step had more private attempts been successful.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 12:27:17 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterxH Message-ID: <y41yl2w41m.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  " Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:  N > Perhaps our German contributors might be able to confirm this, but as far asL > I am aware, the German constitution does not allow for its military forcesK > to be deployed in any action [other than a peace-keeping role I believe]   > outside German borders.t  J I think the restriction used to be "within NATO territory" - anything elseL would have been unreasonable. However, within the past five years or so, so-L called "out of area" missions have been agreed upon by the German parliamentM (in the Kosovo, for instance). I'm not sure there is a blanket agreement thatiF such missions are possible; every military action has to be explicitly% sanctioned by parliament in any case.h  L > The only DEFINATE statement of the sort being mentioned that I have heard 8 > came from the Belgian's, who said 'we are NOT at war'.  J Schroeder quote from his speech to the Bundestag yesterday: "We are not at war."    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:47:20 -0400n5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf2 Message-ID: <eOOpO4ZNzEOBUswVIsTc5=yC3tMP@4ax.com>  . On 20 Sep 2001 11:08:57 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  5 >rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:e >v< >> > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: >> > d& >> > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF? >> > .N >> > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's >> > chief executive?  >> bL >> The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someone as clueless as youL >> knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childish insults across the >> pond. > J >David Beatty and you are massively humour-impaired. Get professional help >urgently, if I may so suggest.r >fJ >Incidentally, the President of the USA still is the head of the executiveO >branch, or has that changed recently? And he is an official of the government, / >or has that also changed? There's CEO for you.w >r >	Jant  9     You have no earthly idea who I am or what I am about, 9 so you have no way to judge if I'm humor-impaired or not,n= or if I need professional help or not.  The C.E.O. remark wast= bad enough, this is simply a cheap shot.  I can guarantee youu0 that I laugh harder and louder than most people.  3     Maybe a smiley face within your post would haved indicated humor on your part?s   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:20:34 +0200n  From: Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerf+ Message-ID: <VA.00000451.010403ae@sture.ch>   F In article <eOOpO4ZNzEOBUswVIsTc5=yC3tMP@4ax.com>, David Beatty wrote:0 > On 20 Sep 2001 11:08:57 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen: > <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > 7 > >rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:e > >e> > >> > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: > >> > t( > >> > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF? > >> > eP > >> > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A's > >> > chief executive?o > >> oN > >> The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someone as clueless as youN > >> knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childish insults across the
 > >> pond. > >aL > >David Beatty and you are massively humour-impaired. Get professional help! > >urgently, if I may so suggest.d > >oL > >Incidentally, the President of the USA still is the head of the executiveQ > >branch, or has that changed recently? And he is an official of the government,o1 > >or has that also changed? There's CEO for you.  > >a > > Jane > ; >     You have no earthly idea who I am or what I am about,l; > so you have no way to judge if I'm humor-impaired or not, ? > or if I need professional help or not.  The C.E.O. remark wasn? > bad enough, this is simply a cheap shot.  I can guarantee youk2 > that I laugh harder and louder than most people. > 5 >     Maybe a smiley face within your post would have0 > indicated humor on your part?a >  > David R. Beattyh >.Q Sorry, but I am really at a loss as to what you find a "cheap shot" about calling O the President CEO of the US. Please explain, as I really do not understand whatr  slight may be construed therein. ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlandh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:51:36 -0400n5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centero2 Message-ID: <oeWpO=FXVSPCHgbXd+I1ei2Q4a0T@4ax.com>  3     How about some examples to support your claims? 6 As I have observed time and again, U.S. foreign policy8 is not perfect, but we've helped far more countries that7 you imply.  Some places we have helped recently includeh5 most of the Middle East (Desert Storm), financial aidn. to much of the Third World, and Kosovo/Bosnia.   David R. Beattyc  < On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:54:38 +0200 (MET DST), Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:   >Hello,p >tF >the problem of the US politic is, that they do not have real friends.C >That's not why we would not like to be friends of USA. But the USA B >do not do like friends. They do inform the investigators of otherF >countries not complete, only that information, what is needed to helpC >them. Also do the made what they want, without asking his friends.fH >They think, what we do, believe ... is our thing and must be understoodK >from everybody. Our friends must think same as we. But friendship is more. G >Friends tolerate other mentions. So the USA must show all his friends,hD >that we are friends and not a possible market, or stratigical land. >n >Regards Rudolf Wingerta >aI >P.S. Sorry, but I did never learn a good and correct english. But I hope-  >you will understand my mention.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:42 +0000,  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade Centerl/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.00508C54.00@quegw01.btyp>i  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    N And I think I made the point in a post elsewhere, didn't Congress okay $30m of* aid for the Taliban just a few months ago?   Steve SC        I David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> on 09/20/2001 12:51:36 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)bN From:      David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>, 20 September 2001,            12:51 p.m.    Re: World Trade Center          3     How about some examples to support your claims?t6 As I have observed time and again, U.S. foreign policy8 is not perfect, but we've helped far more countries that7 you imply.  Some places we have helped recently include 5 most of the Middle East (Desert Storm), financial aidp. to much of the Third World, and Kosovo/Bosnia.   David R. Beattyr  < On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:54:38 +0200 (MET DST), Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:   >Hello,u >nF >the problem of the US politic is, that they do not have real friends.C >That's not why we would not like to be friends of USA. But the USAhB >do not do like friends. They do inform the investigators of otherF >countries not complete, only that information, what is needed to helpC >them. Also do the made what they want, without asking his friends._H >They think, what we do, believe ... is our thing and must be understoodK >from everybody. Our friends must think same as we. But friendship is more.aG >Friends tolerate other mentions. So the USA must show all his friends,fD >that we are friends and not a possible market, or stratigical land. >s >Regards Rudolf Wingert  >nI >P.S. Sorry, but I did never learn a good and correct english. But I hopes  >you will understand my mention.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:46:24 GMTr? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerv/ Message-ID: <3ba9f26d.4439193@news.demon.co.uk>   E On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:20:34 +0200, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> wrote:b  G >In article <eOOpO4ZNzEOBUswVIsTc5=yC3tMP@4ax.com>, David Beatty wrote:t1 >> On 20 Sep 2001 11:08:57 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen,; >> <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:l >> o8 >> >rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: >> >? >> >> > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:s >> >> > ) >> >> > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF?n >> >> > Q >> >> > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC is not the US of A'sv >> >> > chief executive? >> >> O >> >> The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someone as clueless as youlO >> >> knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childish insults across thes >> >> pond.  >> >M >> >David Beatty and you are massively humour-impaired. Get professional help " >> >urgently, if I may so suggest. >> >M >> >Incidentally, the President of the USA still is the head of the executiveaR >> >branch, or has that changed recently? And he is an official of the government,2 >> >or has that also changed? There's CEO for you. >> > >> > Jan >>  < >>     You have no earthly idea who I am or what I am about,< >> so you have no way to judge if I'm humor-impaired or not,@ >> or if I need professional help or not.  The C.E.O. remark was@ >> bad enough, this is simply a cheap shot.  I can guarantee you3 >> that I laugh harder and louder than most people.. >>  6 >>     Maybe a smiley face within your post would have  >> indicated humor on your part? >> g >> David R. Beatty >>R >Sorry, but I am really at a loss as to what you find a "cheap shot" about callingP >the President CEO of the US. Please explain, as I really do not understand what! >slight may be construed therein.h  E He refered to President Bush as "CEO of USA Inc.", thus implying that D both that the US was not a state, but rather a corporation, and thatA the president was corporate officer, not a democratically electedb	 official.o  ? At its kindest reading, it was a cheap shot suggesting that theeA president cared only for the financial interests of the larger US E companies.  Any less kind reading would be to suggest that the US was ( a dystopian corporate state, ala Gibson.  F Even I found it highly offensive, and I've done my level best to avoid even reading this thread.-   Jim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:13:47 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr2 Message-ID: <c=epOzvu98Z3qXrgL18Kud6ipFvI@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:20:34 +0200, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> wrote:s   <previous posts snipped>  R >Sorry, but I am really at a loss as to what you find a "cheap shot" about callingP >the President CEO of the US. Please explain, as I really do not understand what! >slight may be construed therein.i >___ >Paul Sture  >Switzerland  <     The implication being that the President of the U.S. was either:-  A     1.  The head of a "corporation" (i.e. the government), which,@-          by definition, is not a corporation.   9     2.  That by being a C.E.O., he is somehow indebted ton>          U.S. corporations moreso that he is to U.S. citizens.  7 Am I being overly sensitive?  Perhaps ... but how often.9 has a direct attack against U.S. citizens resulted in then< loss of this many lives or the potentially negative economic2 impact (one conervative estimate at $315 billion).   David R. Beatty    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:55:49 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: World Trade Centeri- Message-ID: <0033000035836286000002L062*@MHS>   = =0AI'm trying very, very hard to not get into these off-topich# threads, but I keep getting baited.t  7 Dave Beatty is absolutely correct and now we're hearing 5 the Clintonesque 'what you heard was not what I said'v9 backpedaling, despite the clear meaning of what was said.   7 They're ignoring the "USA, Inc." part of the statement.o  : The statement when taken in its entirety is an unambiguous+ slur against our country and our President.l  ; This country is about much, much more than the corporations  which exist therein.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo, > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 9:32 AMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET! > Subject: RE: World Trade Centerh >  >eH > In article <eOOpO4ZNzEOBUswVIsTc5=3DyC3tMP@4ax.com>, David Beatty wro= te:t2 > > On 20 Sep 2001 11:08:57 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen< > > <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote: > >t9 > > >rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:s > > > @ > > >> > David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: > > >> >* > > >> > >     CEO of U.S.A. Inc.?!?  WTF? > > >> >= > > >> > The tenant of 1600, Pennsylvania Ave., Washington DC9 > is not the US of A's > > >> > chief executive?r > > >>= > > >> The U.S.A. isn't a corporation.  I expect even someones > as clueless as you= > > >> knows that, but you amuse yourself by tossing childisht > insults across the > > >> pond. > > >n< > > >David Beatty and you are massively humour-impaired. Get > professional helps# > > >urgently, if I may so suggest.a > > >e= > > >Incidentally, the President of the USA still is the headb > of the executiveH > > >branch, or has that changed recently? And he is an official of the=  ? > government, > >or has that also changed? There's CEO for you.h > > >h	 > > > Janl > >a= > >     You have no earthly idea who I am or what I am about,s= > > so you have no way to judge if I'm humor-impaired or not,sA > > or if I need professional help or not.  The C.E.O. remark was A > > bad enough, this is simply a cheap shot.  I can guarantee youi4 > > that I laugh harder and louder than most people. > > 7 > >     Maybe a smiley face within your post would haver! > > indicated humor on your part?y > >e > > David R. Beattyu > >m? > Sorry, but I am really at a loss as to what you find a "cheapr
 > shot" aboute; > calling the President CEO of the US. Please explain, as I' > really do notr2 > understand what slight may be construed therein. > ___  > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlandv >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:58:12 -0400e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centers2 Message-ID: <rQOqO1MCKku0PS9lYr2BAwgJq3Uy@4ax.com>  A     The U.S. has been contributing foreign aid to Afghanistan foreC quite some time, but I'm not sure of the exact amounts.  I'm fairlyr sure it is reviewed yearly.e   David R. Beattyh  E On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:42 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:i  M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazao >  >tO >And I think I made the point in a post elsewhere, didn't Congress okay $30m ofl+ >aid for the Taliban just a few months ago?b >  >Steve S >  >o >  >IJ >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> on 09/20/2001 12:51:36 PM >h! >To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come, >cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)O >From:      David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>, 20 September 2001,e >           12:51 p.m. >e >Re: World Trade Centery >  >e >a >b > 4 >    How about some examples to support your claims?7 >As I have observed time and again, U.S. foreign policyo9 >is not perfect, but we've helped far more countries thati8 >you imply.  Some places we have helped recently include6 >most of the Middle East (Desert Storm), financial aid/ >to much of the Third World, and Kosovo/Bosnia.e >j >David R. Beatty > = >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:54:38 +0200 (MET DST), Rudolf Wingertn ><win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:e >u >>Hello, >>G >>the problem of the US politic is, that they do not have real friends.aD >>That's not why we would not like to be friends of USA. But the USAC >>do not do like friends. They do inform the investigators of other G >>countries not complete, only that information, what is needed to helpnD >>them. Also do the made what they want, without asking his friends.I >>They think, what we do, believe ... is our thing and must be understood.L >>from everybody. Our friends must think same as we. But friendship is more.H >>Friends tolerate other mentions. So the USA must show all his friends,E >>that we are friends and not a possible market, or stratigical land.n >> >>Regards Rudolf Wingert >>J >>P.S. Sorry, but I did never learn a good and correct english. But I hope! >>you will understand my mention.n >p >e >e   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 17:27:26 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e Subject: Re: World Trade CenterhH Message-ID: <y4adzp6fxd.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:n  ; >     2.  That by being a C.E.O., he is somehow indebted toi@ >          U.S. corporations moreso that he is to U.S. citizens.  L Although I can see no way that my remark insinuates that - but you obviouslyM do - it is clear that he is. He would not have been elected without financial K support from US companies. Of course, no US president in recent history hasWM been, but the moeny that was spent on the incumbent's campaign was egregious. J And of course all those thousands of lobbyists in the Beltway are there to! further John Doe's interests, eh?e  $ Go read Carl Schurz's autobiography.   > Am I being overly sensitive? :   Yes.   > Perhaps ... but how oftenh; > has a direct attack against U.S. citizens resulted in the@> > loss of this many lives or the potentially negative economic4 > impact (one conervative estimate at $315 billion).  & "conservative $315 billion"? Bullshit.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:28:00 +0100s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>U Subject: Re: World Trade Centere8 Message-ID: <of1kqt4d3d1ku2c0gse4qi41hvr01gu7qa@4ax.com>  0 On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:13:47 -0400, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:   8 >Am I being overly sensitive?  Perhaps ... but how often: >has a direct attack against U.S. citizens resulted in the= >loss of this many lives or the potentially negative economict3 >impact (one conervative estimate at $315 billion).n  @ After watching a tape of Monday night's Letterman and talking toC American colleagues I am just beginning to understand how hard lastu> Tuesday's events  hit the American psyche. It is true I hadn'tF factored the magnitude of the shock (difficult to find a suitable wordE here and I know shock doesn't do it justice) into some of my replies.o    I will try to keep this in mind.   >l >David R. Beatty   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:55:31 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)1 Subject: Re: World Trade Centere3 Message-ID: <d+Zs0ldlU2Sn@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  S In article <3BA8F938.908810C3@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:4  J > You're saying it's not a posse ?  The Bush Administration is busy tryingF > to get support - in trrops or logistics - from all other countries. & > That's damn near a posse in my book.    C    You seem to be implying that we must be able to prove guilt in awC    court of law before military action.  Response to an act of war  /    does not require court action.  Never has.  h  D    Did Britain try Hilter for invading Poland before sending troops F    to the mainland?  No.  Did the US try Hirohito before responding to    Pearl Harbor?  No.y  D    Just because we don't have an attack by a specific foreign nationD    does not make it not an act of war.  American precedent:  Thomas G    Jefferson signed a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates.  e  G    Bush is not expected to ask for a declaration of war tonight, but I  G    hope he will once the terrorists are well identified.  Let there be a    no mincing words.   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Sep 2001 15:50:49 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)u Subject: Re: World Trade Centerr' Message-ID: <9od38p$6qd$4@joe.rice.edu>s  6 David Beatty (David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com) wrote: :sC :     The U.S. has been contributing foreign aid to Afghanistan for E : quite some time, but I'm not sure of the exact amounts.  I'm fairly  : sure it is reviewed yearly.u :    From:a  G   http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/terror/response/1050877a  =   "The abject failure of the Taliban government to ensure theeF    availability of food and basic health services has left millions ofI    Afghans dependent on international aid for their survival. Ironically,-G    the United States is the biggest single donor, providing $80 milliona?    of the $140 million in annual U.N. humanitarian assistance."o   --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:03:59 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n Subject: Re: World Trade Centern3 Message-ID: <HX0PuosPr6kb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <200109200654.IAA26824@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>, Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> writes:i > Hello, > G > the problem of the US politic is, that they do not have real friends.T  D    If you don't think the US has friends in Canada, Britain, France,:    Germany, Japan, ..., you've been under a rock too long.  D > That's not why we would not like to be friends of USA. But the USAC > do not do like friends. They do inform the investigators of otheroG > countries not complete, only that information, what is needed to helpfD > them. Also do the made what they want, without asking his friends.  F    The US does not do want it wants without asking.  The US asked for E    permission to fly from Britain and over France when it retailated nB    in Lybia 20 years ago, and respected Frances regretable denial.        ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 11:09:51 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)g Subject: Re: World Trade Centero3 Message-ID: <o$gnuWNjreIE@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  R In article <00256ACD.003D3681.00@quegw01.btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes: > P > Perhaps our German contributors might be able to confirm this, but as far as IP > am aware, the German constitution does not allow for its military forces to beL > deployed in any action [other than a peace-keeping role I believe] outsideN > German borders. This might help to explain why they may be less hawkish, andE > would wish for a more specific definition of what is being planned.< >   F    No, that's Japan.  Germany in fact supplied troops and airpower forC    the Persian Gulf war, that was the first time they took militarym&    action outside Germany since WW II.    dF    In the Gulf war, and now, Japan did find/is promising other ways to    contribute.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:23:15 +0200t5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerh+ Message-ID: <3BAA17F3.85558C07@TeraPort.de>c   Bob Koehler wrote: > U > In article <3BA8F938.908810C3@dplanet.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> writes:s > L > > You're saying it's not a posse ?  The Bush Administration is busy tryingG > > to get support - in trrops or logistics - from all other countries.p( > > That's damn near a posse in my book. > E >    You seem to be implying that we must be able to prove guilt in a D >    court of law before military action.  Response to an act of war/ >    does not require court action.  Never has.t > E >    Did Britain try Hilter for invading Poland before sending troopshH >    to the mainland?  No.  Did the US try Hirohito before responding to >    Pearl Harbor?  No.b >.  H  No doubt, above are acts of war in the "most common definition". As wasH Iraq invading Kuwait. No question about it. No need to try the offenders  before you take military action.  sF >    Just because we don't have an attack by a specific foreign nationE >    does not make it not an act of war.  American precedent:  ThomassG >    Jefferson signed a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates.0 >1  D  I think here we tend to disagree. Unless you can find a nation or aH nation-leader who "ordered" the WTC attack, you are not at war. You haveC "just" been the vitim of the most hineous crime that I can imagine.a  H  Of course, you can declare "war on terrorists", but this does not implyD that you can take broad military action in another country (like sayE widescale bombing of Afghanistan to convince the Taliban to evict Bin D Ladden.). That other country could in reverse claim that the US have2 performed acts of war (or State-Terrorsm) on them.  C  So, very careful what you (the US government/media) try to sell as  "war".   H >    Bush is not expected to ask for a declaration of war tonight, but IH >    hope he will once the terrorists are well identified.  Let there be >    no mincing words.  H  War against whom??? Declaring war against Terrorists ist just marketingH speak. Sure, bring Bin Ladden or whoever to justice and noone will schedC a tear. But do not try to sell it as war. Unless you are willing toy@ start a real one (against another nation) in order to squash the
 criminals.   Martin -- tB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309e7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111j5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759f   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 18:43:20 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>e Subject: Re: World Trade Center H Message-ID: <y4g09h4xuf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   H >    No, that's Japan.  Germany in fact supplied troops and airpower forE >    the Persian Gulf war, that was the first time they took military ( >    action outside Germany since WW II.  C I'm pretty certain we didn't provide combat troops in the Gulf War.    	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:47:00 GMTd? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)l Subject: Re: World Trade Centerw0 Message-ID: <3baa1c54.15165977@news.demon.co.uk>  . On 20 Sep 2001 17:27:26 +0200, Jan Vorbrueggen8 <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:  8 >David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes: > < >>     2.  That by being a C.E.O., he is somehow indebted toA >>          U.S. corporations moreso that he is to U.S. citizens.- >-M >Although I can see no way that my remark insinuates that - but you obviouslytN >do - it is clear that he is. He would not have been elected without financialL >support from US companies. Of course, no US president in recent history hasN >been, but the moeny that was spent on the incumbent's campaign was egregious.K >And of course all those thousands of lobbyists in the Beltway are there toC" >further John Doe's interests, eh? >l% >Go read Carl Schurz's autobiography.e >n  >> Am I being overly sensitive?  >  >Yes.r  @ No.  As an expat American I am also completely disgusted by thisC thread.  I see no reason for your original comment, and I certainlyt! see no reason for your follow-up.   E Manners alone would suggest that your comments are in poor taste justn4 now - REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THEM.  E The topic of this newsgroup would suggest that it is off-topic, as it . has nothing to do with either VMS or with WTC.  E Finally, to claim that you can't see the only obvious implications ofcF your original remark is, at best, silly, and at worst a brazen attempt7 at a Clintonesque redefinition of the English language.      Jim.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 00:42:37 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm- Message-ID: <877kutoltu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>f  + leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) writes:   I >   http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/terror/response/1050877' > ? >   "The abject failure of the Taliban government to ensure the H >    availability of food and basic health services has left millions ofK >    Afghans dependent on international aid for their survival. Ironically,lI >    the United States is the biggest single donor, providing $80 millionuA >    of the $140 million in annual U.N. humanitarian assistance."   : They do have a real nice stadium in Kabul though, US gift.  * Pity about the penalty shootouts though...   -- 1< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:58:15 +0200s5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>a Subject: Re: World Trade Center + Message-ID: <3BAA2027.7FFEECD8@TeraPort.de>>   Jan Vorbrueggen wrote: > 1 > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:U > J > >    No, that's Japan.  Germany in fact supplied troops and airpower forG > >    the Persian Gulf war, that was the first time they took militaryt* > >    action outside Germany since WW II. > E > I'm pretty certain we didn't provide combat troops in the Gulf War.s > 
 >         Jane  D  Correct. But we provided mine-sweeping vessels to clean up the gulf@ from Iraqui mines. This was definitely a out-of-area deployment.   Martin -- uB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309 7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111v5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:56:43 +0000h  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade Centeru/ Message-ID: <00256ACD.0062958F.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    ) That's what I thought. Logistics I think.o  O The reason it came to my mind was because I recall some issues when the BalkanslO conflict was ongoing, although it could have been due to politcal sensitivitiessA as far as having German ground troops there, rather than anything  constitutional.    Thanks   Steve Spires        L Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@fsnif.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> on 09/20/2001 04:43:20 PMc    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)@M From:      Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@fsnif.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, 20 $            September 2001, 4:43 p.m.   Re: World Trade Center        / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   H >    No, that's Japan.  Germany in fact supplied troops and airpower forE >    the Persian Gulf war, that was the first time they took militaryl( >    action outside Germany since WW II.  C I'm pretty certain we didn't provide combat troops in the Gulf War.b        Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:01:13 -0400w5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Center:1 Message-ID: <Yhpq7.424$YP.16346@news.cpqcorp.net>   : Bill Todd wrote in message <9oak8b$ie8$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >0L >The first step in persuasion is making some attempt to understand and reactK >to what the person you're trying to persuade is saying.  Should you decideiF >to do so and start debating issues rather than misconceptions, actual >progress might well occur.i >y     Ditto right back at ya.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:25:15 +0200t' From: A Razzak <Razzak.dar@t-online.de>n Subject: Re: World Trade CenterO+ Message-ID: <3BAA267A.83C2F2B5@t-online.de>R   A Marshal plan from mossad ?  C   Think about this: more than 4,000 Jews work in the WTC but at thet	   time ofh@   this atrocity not one was in the buildings. Christians, sicks,
   hindoos andtB   Muslims were murdered but not a single jew was killed. It proves   beyondA   doubt who did it. Not Usama, he gained nothing out of this. Theh   only ones to<   gain out of this are ariel Shalon and his mossad towowists   (terrorists in  Yiddish)   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2001 08:02:09 -0400+ From: randall.burlew@srs.gov (Randy Burlew)s- Subject: Re: WSJ reporting HP will buy Compaqh, Message-ID: <2001Sep20.080209.13114@srs.gov>  2 I understand your concerns with trusting CA. I was merely addressing the statementt  5 "There is no Ingres, Sybase, or Informix for OpenVMS"e  / That being said, who can you trust? Compaq? HP?n   Randyp    A In article <20010919121255.27013.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>, 6  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br says... >i" >How long do you can trust in CA ?/ >Here in Brazil, CA means "Comprar e Acabar" or- >Buy and Finish...1 >OpenVMS as an unique OS should have an option ofi0 >unique database.... I vote for RDB and Cach=E9. >  >Regards >h >FC=20 >  >. >.1 >--- Randy Burlew <randall.burlew@srs.gov> wrote:r
 >> In articleh >>6 ><20010917171237.86295.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>, >># >> fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br says...o >> >5 >> >I dont know why Oracle still with RDB, because itc$ >> >is a unique product for OpenVMS./ >> >It should return to HP/Compaq and become an " >> >unbundled product for OpenVMS. >> > >> >/ >> >There is no Ingres, Sybase, or Informix for  >> >OpenVMS. >>3 >> (Open)Ingres runs well on VMS and CA is actively 4 >> supporting it. There are still a lot of VMS shops >> that run Ingres.  >> Randy   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.524 ************************