1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 21 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 526       Contents: Re: Alphaserver 8400. Can I put here attachment of my short program? Re: Decnet Copy problem & Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1* Re: Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1* Re: Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1
 EDT for Linux  Re: EDT for Linux  Re: EDT for Linux  Re: EDT for Linux  Re: emacs for the alpha/vms   Re: Feeling Better about Itanium2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?( Re: How resource directory works in DLM?# Re: Info about motif and OS version 0 Itanium server with Alpha processor add-in card?4 Re: Itanium server with Alpha processor add-in card?- Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents - Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents - Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents 0 Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1 OpenVMS Alpha - Sorting problem = OT: Gartner Recommends Businesses Look At Alternatives To IIS " Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear" Re: OT: Let's make one thing clear OT: WTC - a final word Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center  Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center & Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage Samba on OpenVMS protection. VAX DOCUMENT Re: VAX DOCUMENT Re: We are back from CETSy Re: Which file to change!  Re: Which file to change!  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:40:55 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: Alphaserver 8400 > Message-ID: <HrHq7.191215$aZ.34021546@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  J Even if they give you the 8400 and the HSZs,  and even though you trade inJ your VAX enterprise class licenses for Alpha enterprise class licenses,  IG think you will find that it won't take long to realize that maintenance K costs will eat up any short term savings you might have.  Of course, if you D don't keep maintenance, and if you never have any support or upgradeJ requirements you may be ok.  In that case, it will take a little longer toH realize the added expense in terms of  Electricity air Air-conditioning.   > J > I think they were desperate to try and keep costs down as they are aware of an J > in-house bid in competition. That's the best interpretation I can put on
 it anyway. >  >   H Be sure to calculate any maintenance costs in determining overall costs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:59:23 +0200 % From: "IdrEASY" <IdrEASY@bigfoot.com> 7 Subject: Can I put here attachment of my short program? * Message-ID: <9oeoq0$fcpn$1@as201.hinet.hr>  D I made little program for deleting file with giving lbound,ubound or numbering versions.   % I think that it could be interesting.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:03:25 +0200 = From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>   Subject: Re: Decnet Copy problem4 Message-ID: <3BAAE63D.289F906@contrastmediagroep.nl>   Kenneth wrote:  . > DECnet copy will return the following error: > $ DIR B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::F > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening B"USERNAME PASSWORD"::*.*;* as input1 > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed , > -SYSTEM-F-LINKEXIT, network partner exited  E This type of error is almost certainly some problem in sylogin.com or G login.com. You can try putting a $set verify on top of the sylogin.com.   G Or replace both login.com (for this user) and sylogin.com with one with @ only a $exit in it. Make also sure that the sylogin.com is world	 readable.    Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:51:26 +0200 1 From: "Andrew Aylward" <Andrew.Aylward@ast.co.za> / Subject: Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1 H Message-ID: <EE170DD1AC76FC4D8A71DA5912DBBF6E050BFF@nnc-exc01.ast.co.za>   Hi Everyone  =20 D Before I request help on a little problem I have, I want to just askG that all this mail back and forth about what happened last week come to E an end.  I don't think that this is the correct forum for this.  I am G not speaking to any 'group' whether pro US or not, I am talking to all. G This is my first mail ever to this 'list', which I only joined two days G ago and I get bombarded with all this tit for tat mail.  Trying to sift F through everything for the VMS related mail - which is the purpose forD this listserv service - is quite annoying as many of us have serious? jobs to do.  I am sure everyone of us feel emotional about what 3 happened, but again, this is not the correct forum.  =20 0 Thank you for your consideration in this regard. =20 B My problem is this.  In OpenVms 7.1 directories only go the eighthE level.  They cannot go any deeper.  I think I have found a patch that H will fix this (apart from upgrading to 7.2-1), but my problem is loadingE the patch.  I know the commands, but I cannot get the patch file into H the right format and I am also not very sure of the sequence of commandsF that I must run to get the patch loaded.  This is what I do know:-  i.H The file must be in the SYS$UPDATE directory and ii. The command you runA must be "$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTALL <patchname>"  The patch name is 5 ALPRMS04_071 for any of you who may recognize it. =20  =20  Andrew Aylward AST Group - Newcastle Branch   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 11:13:43 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 3 Subject: Re: Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1 H Message-ID: <y43d5ghpo8.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  M The patches are usually in the form of an executable that, when run, extracts M the actual patch file from itself. The likely result is a PCSI file, which is + installed with the PRODUCT INSTALL command.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:15:25 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>3 Subject: Re: Directory Structure Depth: OpenVMS 7.1 ) Message-ID: <3BAB052D.55393A15@127.0.0.1>    Andrew Aylward wrote: F > Before I request help on a little problem I have, I want to just askI > that all this mail back and forth about what happened last week come to G > an end.  I don't think that this is the correct forum for this.  I am I > not speaking to any 'group' whether pro US or not, I am talking to all. I > This is my first mail ever to this 'list', which I only joined two days I > ago and I get bombarded with all this tit for tat mail.  Trying to sift H > through everything for the VMS related mail - which is the purpose forF > this listserv service - is quite annoying as many of us have seriousA > jobs to do.  I am sure everyone of us feel emotional about what 5 > happened, but again, this is not the correct forum.   E Andrew, with the greatest respect, you have only been looking at this  list for 2 days.  E My professional considered opinion of this list and the contributors, C that is _all_ contributors, is this is the thinking persons' forum. B Although I decline to contribute to this thread, reading them is aC privilege. In other words, I disagree with you. News browsers today F offer extensive filtering, I suggest you 'gen' yourself on it. ReadingH the newsgroup is in my view preferential to receiving the list by email.   D > My problem is this.  In OpenVms 7.1 directories only go the eighthG > level.  They cannot go any deeper.  I think I have found a patch that J > will fix this (apart from upgrading to 7.2-1), but my problem is loadingG > the patch.  I know the commands, but I cannot get the patch file into J > the right format and I am also not very sure of the sequence of commandsH > that I must run to get the patch loaded.  This is what I do know:-  i.J > The file must be in the SYS$UPDATE directory and ii. The command you runC > must be "$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTALL <patchname>"  The patch name is 3 > ALPRMS04_071 for any of you who may recognize it.   A I would suggest you start with the FAQ. You also need to read the A Upgrade and Installation Manual (documentation links off the FAQ)   5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html   H How did you arrive at the conclusion that this patch would "correct" theF "problems" you are seeing? I saw nothing referring to directory depth,F this is a known limitation, but workarounds are available. You need toG understand why the problem is being caused, and why you think exceeding F 8 levels will help you. Applying any 'fixes' requires an understanding? of your problem, and what the fix provides (and subsequent side 	 effects).   E Perhaps it is better you describe what your problems are with 'deeper F than' 8 levels. This operating system behaves much better when treated? with "analysis" rather than the random patching that some other # operating systems are subjected to.   G Anyway, welcome to OpenVMS and this public forum of those who work with  it.    --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:39:11 +0100 > From: "John Macallister" <J.Macallister1@physics.oxford.ac.uk> Subject: EDT for Linux( Message-ID: <9ofn00$ca5$1@news.ox.ac.uk>  J I have to use Linux a lot these days and would like to have an EDT editor,/ just plain old EDT and not necessarily TPU/EVE. ' Anyone know of an EDT editor for Linux?    John   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Sep 2001 15:47:57 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)  Subject: Re: EDT for Linux' Message-ID: <9ofnfd$sa4$1@joe.rice.edu>   = John Macallister (J.Macallister1@physics.oxford.ac.uk) wrote: L : I have to use Linux a lot these days and would like to have an EDT editor,1 : just plain old EDT and not necessarily TPU/EVE. ) : Anyone know of an EDT editor for Linux?    There's ED, a freeware  editor with source:  .   http://clio.rice.edu/EDstuff/ED_Overview.txt   The source is available at:      http://clio.rice.edu/    --Jerry Leslie   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:50:52 -0400 # From: Jim Agnew <agnew@hsc.vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: EDT for Linux+ Message-ID: <3BAB61DC.22C1F8A3@hsc.vcu.edu>   1 http://www.ultranet.com/~anker/sedt/sedt_main.htm   C is a home page for sedt, a lookalike I use for dos... I've tried to D compile it under linux, but was not able to do it (don't know c that well)   3 but, emacs has an edt mode also.  (or was it vi?)))    jim    John Macallister wrote:  > L > I have to use Linux a lot these days and would like to have an EDT editor,1 > just plain old EDT and not necessarily TPU/EVE. ) > Anyone know of an EDT editor for Linux?  >  > John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:53:12 GMT  From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com  Subject: Re: EDT for Linux8 Message-ID: <jgomqt4k92eamivipkb6h9chg23utbmca2@4ax.com>  6 On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:39:11 +0100, "John Macallister", <J.Macallister1@physics.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:  K >I have to use Linux a lot these days and would like to have an EDT editor, 0 >just plain old EDT and not necessarily TPU/EVE.( >Anyone know of an EDT editor for Linux? >  >John    Look for JED, and XJED.     http://space.mit.edu/~davis/jed/  ( also, most (all?) emacs have a EDT mode.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:07:04 -0400 > From: Charlie McCutcheon <charlie.mccutcheon@NOSPAMcompaq.com>$ Subject: Re: emacs for the alpha/vms0 Message-ID: <3BAB3B78.BFF79D85@NOSPAMcompaq.com>   Douglas Nichols wrote:  N > Does anyone know where we/I can get a copy of emacs for the alpha machine? IG > am quite fedup with the tpu editor, not that it is bad mind you. Just 
 > preference.  >  > thanks > dn  0 I know GNU Emacs is available for OpenVMS Alpha.  N Looks like http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/emacsv1928/ mightF get you what you want.  This is the Freeware disk supplied by OpenVMS.  L I haven't downloaded from here, so I can't give further instructions, sorry.   Charlie    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:40:36 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Feeling Better about Itanium 1 Message-ID: <6kIq7.459$YP.16932@news.cpqcorp.net>   K The problem with POSIX is that it is A) missing some key UNIX features, and  B) it is too slow.  K Neither of these are really addressed by DII-COE.  POSIX has been made more K robust, and more full featured.  But it still does not have a complete FORK  or SELECT solution.   J Eventually, the interfaces (I prefer to push UNIX 98 or Linux, than Posix)J will make it into VMS, and a native FORK, and fully functional SELECT willK appear.  That is when we can make reasonable claims to be able to be viewed @ as just another flavor of UNIX (at an application source level).      	 ---------   B WILLIAM WEBB wrote in message <0033000035892560000002L002*@MHS>...  8 Ah, but POSIX is coming back to VMS as part of DII-COE--  6 First as an add-on, like it used to be, and later with, the interfaces fully integrated into the OS.   WWWebb   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET , > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:20 PMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ > Subject: RE: Feeling Better about Itanium  >  > 0 > In article <3BAA2055.6030204@mac.com>, Leandro > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guimar=E3es?=2 > Faria Corsetti Dutra  writes: > Bill Todd wrote: > >  > >>? > >> Higher-end servers won't be 'commodities' in anything like  > the same sense:  > >  > > 8 > > But IBM (and perhaps Sun) will have a big advantage, > selling high-end- > > servers  while sticking to POSIX systems.  > H > That sounds good in theory, but the fact that VMS dumped Posix support> > for a while would tend to indicate it is not much of a sales > differentiator.  >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:44:30 +0200 - From: Jouk Jansen <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> ; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? 3 Message-ID: <3BAAFDEE.39FE3BB4@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > f > In article <c67e4bdd.0109201309.6a5f6a88@posting.google.com>, john_20_28_2000@yahoo.com (jm) writes:C > :How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp 1 > :installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.  > 8 >   Via the MIME utility or MPACK or other similar tool.E >   MIME is part of OpenVMS.  MPACK is Freeware.  Various third-party % >   TCP/IP stacks include MIME tools.  > 5 Another option is to use the mail option of NETSCAPE.   	      Jouk    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:02 +0200 < From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com>; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? ( Message-ID: <3BAAF9D6.1573391A@home.com>   $ create some_text_file.txt  line1  line2  line3  line4 <ctrl/Z> $ ; $ mpack -s "test" -o some_text_file.mime some_text_file.zip ? $ mail some_text_file.mime "nbl%""my_email_address@my_domin"""   $   9 That's it. I got a ZIP file in outlook as an attachement.  No problem at all...   Regards  Jan-Erik Sderholm.   	 jm wrote:  > B > How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp0 > installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:36:30 +0200a< From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com>; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?t( Message-ID: <3BAAFC0E.5B7C45EF@home.com>   Oops, I forgot the ZIP command.  It's added below. 	 Jan-Erik.    $ create some_text_file.txte line1n line2r line3I line4 <ctrl/Z> $I+ $ zip some_text_file.zip some_text_file.txto; $ mpack -s "test" -o some_text_file.mime some_text_file.zipn> $ mail some_text_file.mime "nbl%""my_email_address@my_domin""" $    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:37:24 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? ) Message-ID: <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>i  	 jm wrote:oB > How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp0 > installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.  @ I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGN command/qualifier.  8 It does depend on the receiving client in my experience. -- e( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comi   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 08:51:47 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)O; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? 3 Message-ID: <jQSQb$wGhkjH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > jm wrote:iC >> How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtpa1 >> installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.e > B > I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGN > command/qualifier. > : > It does depend on the receiving client in my experience.  F I believe it can also depend on intermediate systems, because Internet5 mail only guarantees that 7 bits will be transmitted.a   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:03:46 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?O3 Message-ID: <dVUF3$scgJic@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  c In article <jQSQb$wGhkjH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:rV > In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: >> jm wrote:D >>> How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp2 >>> installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you. >> rC >> I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGN- >> command/qualifier.- >> -; >> It does depend on the receiving client in my experience.: > H > I believe it can also depend on intermediate systems, because Internet7 > mail only guarantees that 7 bits will be transmitted.b  G Since MAIL /FOREIGN encodes the actual data file in BASE64, this should D not be an issue.  At least that's how it's handled with the Multinet) SMTP% mailer (SMTP_MAILSHR) for VMS mail.t  K You get a MIME-compliant message with a Content-type of APPLICATION/VMS-RMSe9 (with a VMS-FDL parameter with a long strong value) and amG Content-Transfer-Encoding of BASE64.  BASE64 is, of course, 7 bit safe.uC And it's also line-length, record-delimiter and blank padding safe.h  F While I might anticipate some difficulty properly understanding a fileB transported in this manner on the target system, I wouldn't expect@ any problem in receiving the proper and uncorrupted bit pattern.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:22:25 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?r) Message-ID: <3BAB5B31.4E4982D2@127.0.0.1>c   Larry Kilgallen wrote:V > In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > > < > > It does depend on the receiving client in my experience. > H > I believe it can also depend on intermediate systems, because Internet7 > mail only guarantees that 7 bits will be transmitted.a  E I have had VMS to VMS success via my ISP which is a UNIX (Sun) house, E delivered into MAIL as a perfect foreign message, all file attributese( intact. (Similar to the DECnet to DECnet  F However I agreee with you, intermediate systems can be an issue. YMMV. --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:15:08 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman); Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?e1 Message-ID: <gIJq7.465$YP.17056@news.cpqcorp.net>b  T In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:
 :jm wrote:C :> How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp-1 :> installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.0 :1A :I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGNj :command/qualifier.u  A   SEND/FOREIGN is an undocumented command specific to the MAIL-110F   protocol, and suitable only for DECnet-to-DECnet email using MAIL-11D   protocol; it will work only if there is a continous DECnet MAIL-11D   connection -- no mail bridges or gateways, etc. between the senderF   and the receiver.  SEND/FOREIGN is not associated with MIME-encodingI   of SMTP nor is it related to what most folks think of as "attachments".i  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:22:53 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? 3 Message-ID: <yYyG98DG1LIS@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  f In article <gIJq7.465$YP.17056@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:V > In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > :jm wrote:E > :> How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtpI3 > :> installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.  > :-C > :I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGNd > :command/qualifier.Y > C >   SEND/FOREIGN is an undocumented command specific to the MAIL-11yH >   protocol, and suitable only for DECnet-to-DECnet email using MAIL-11F >   protocol; it will work only if there is a continous DECnet MAIL-11F >   connection -- no mail bridges or gateways, etc. between the senderH >   and the receiver.  SEND/FOREIGN is not associated with MIME-encodingK >   of SMTP nor is it related to what most folks think of as "attachments".c  / In practice, however, the opposite is the case.w   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:23 CDTI' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)U; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?-- Message-ID: <21SEP200112234618@gerg.tamu.edu>m  ' hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam writes...cU }In article <3BAB2674.298C41CE@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:1 }:jm wrote:AD }:> How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp2 }:> installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you. }:B }:I can report varying degrees of success with Mail's SEND/FOREIGN }:command/qualifier. } B }  SEND/FOREIGN is an undocumented command specific to the MAIL-11G }  protocol, and suitable only for DECnet-to-DECnet email using MAIL-11iE }  protocol; it will work only if there is a continous DECnet MAIL-11 E }  connection -- no mail bridges or gateways, etc. between the senderdG }  and the receiver.  SEND/FOREIGN is not associated with MIME-encodingyJ }  of SMTP nor is it related to what most folks think of as "attachments". } O } ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------rO }      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    yO } --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------tM }   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.comc  E Multinet extends this to some basic SMTP MIME-encoding when it's SMTP  transport is used.  - From the Multinet DECODE example in the help:t  J          Binary files can be sent via SMTP using the undocumented /FOREIGNJ          qualifier of the OpenVMS Mail SEND command. The following exampleF          shows how to send such a file and use DECODE to translate the$          corresponding mail message:  =          1. First, send a executable file using OpenVMS Mail:                $ MAIL1             MAIL>SEND /FOREIGN /NOEDIT BINARY.EXEh+             To:     SMTP%"TREEFROG@ABC.COM"a             Subj:   BINARY.EXE  I          2. When the file arrives, store the ASCII-encoded mail as a textd             file:                $ MAIL,             MAIL>EXTRACT/NOHEADER BINARY.TXT  H          3. Finally, decode the BINARY.TXT file into an executable file:  3             $ MULTINET DECODE BINARY.TXT BINARY.EXEo  J This is not a general purpose MIME and attachment thing - while it is usesH MIME and base64 encoding, it will almost certainly only work if both theL sender and receiver are using Multinet on VMS (or possibly TCPWARE - ProcessL may have enabled both pieces of software to communicate with each other this way).g   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:52:45 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> 1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?iH Message-ID: <y4hetx2aea.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>   As I understand it:   K - The directory is redundant in the sense that it can be reconstructed fromeH   the available locking database itself. This is what occurs when a node8   leaves the cluster - the others rebuild the directory.  M - The lock master is the synchronizing agency for a certain lock. If it dies,dH   the actual holders of the lock have to agree on the current state, and   decide on a new master.c  L Where information is lost is when the leaving node was holding a lock with aL lock value block at PW or EX. In this case, readers of the LVB get a warning( return code until the LVB is re-written.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 08:08:50 -0700" From: ndodderi@yahoo.com (Natesha)1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?o= Message-ID: <786739d6.0109210708.2572cd32@posting.google.com>-   Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote in message news:<y4hetx2aea.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>...  > As I understand it:. > M > - The directory is redundant in the sense that it can be reconstructed fromaJ >   the available locking database itself. This is what occurs when a node: >   leaves the cluster - the others rebuild the directory. > O > - The lock master is the synchronizing agency for a certain lock. If it dies,rJ >   the actual holders of the lock have to agree on the current state, and >   decide on a new master.- > N > Where information is lost is when the leaving node was holding a lock with aN > lock value block at PW or EX. In this case, readers of the LVB get a warning* > return code until the LVB is re-written. >  > 	Jan   Thanks for the info.  D I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM in Java.   A What happens when Directory node&#8211;resource name mapping hash * function returns the node id that is down?  9 Please can give more information on Directory rebuilding?h Thanks - Natesha.l   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 17:29:11 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>-1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?1H Message-ID: <y48zf8d0l4.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  $ ndodderi@yahoo.com (Natesha) writes:  L > I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM in Java.  I Essential to the correct functioning of the DLM, and in particular to theeJ directory manager, is the VMScluster's connection manager, because it also# manages membership in the cluster. n  J The situation you describe cannot happen. What does happen is that, when aI node leaves or joins the cluster, the connection manager declares a state-L of emergency, as it were, which temporarily suspends (almost) all processingM in the cluster. Then, the components of the connection manager on all clusteraL nodes execute a complicated algorithm that re-determines cluster membership.H When all agree on which nodes from then on are members, the directory isL rebuilt, and all affected locks are re-mastered. The directory rebuild takesL the form of throwing away the old directory information and hash tables, andL re-populating them from the information contained in the lock database. This* is desinged to be an idempotent operation.   Clearer now?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:42:44 +0100g( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?2) Message-ID: <3BAB5FF4.DC174313@127.0.0.1>i   Natesha wrote: > F > I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM in > Java.4   My goodness.  qC > What happens when Directory node&#8211;resource name mapping hashy, > function returns the node id that is down?  G This is taken care of following successful cluster reconfiguration. The B hashing function still works because the missing node is no longerB listed. This is where I need a copy of the VAXcluster principles IE think, I guess that the lock manager directory is also rebuilt when an@ node with LOCKDIRWT > 0 leaves the cluster*. In other words, theC situation you describe would not happen, its a proactive operation.t  6 * Someone who knows for sure post the details? Please?  -; > Please can give more information on Directory rebuilding?0  F You need the book I mention above, plus internals and data structures,F plus an appreciation of message passing etc. The DLM owes a lot to theG cluster as a whole, the connection manager on each and every node plays-< an important role in ensuring the safe operation of the DLM.  - It is not sufficient to replicate just a DLM.b  G Here is a situation for you to deal with. Two "DLM's" (sic), unaware ofFH each other, yet individually managing the same locks. Which lock manager	 is right?o   -- S( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comT   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:51:17 +0100n* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?a+ Message-ID: <9ofnln$krk@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>e  / "Natesha" <ndodderi@yahoo.com> wrote in messaged7 news:786739d6.0109210708.2572cd32@posting.google.com...   F > I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM in > Java.= > C > What happens when Directory node&#8211;resource name mapping hash0, > function returns the node id that is down?  G It doesn't. You rebuild the directory when the node leaves the cluster.-  ; > Please can give more information on Directory rebuilding?o  K You reweight the partitioning in your hash function and build the directory2H out of the lock information. The locks are either held by a removed nodeI in which case they are invalid, or are available to reindex. It's not they( DLMs problem to cope with any data loss.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:12:22 GMT.2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?p1 Message-ID: <GFJq7.463$YP.16939@news.cpqcorp.net>-  b In article <786739d6.0109202127.5638837a@posting.google.com>, ndodderi@yahoo.com (Natesha) writes:  @ :For example in cluster of 4 nodes, 3rd node is down. If hashing? :function generates node 3 as a directory node. How it works ? s  D   The DLM lock tree would have been rebuild before this could occur.   :and some other doubts are :s0 :1. What happens when the node, which is holding :directory enries, goes down?   D   While only one node masters a particular resource tree at a time, C   any node can.  Only one node is the directory node for a resource B   tree, any node (based on LOCKDIRWT and other factors) can act asC   the directory node -- there's not much to the directory function,-A   really only tracking the master for a particular resource tree.-@   Any node can provide this directory capability, and (largely) A   duplicate data structures are built on each node when the node 0>   boots into the cluster.  Should the node serving as the lock@   directory fail, another is chosen based on the lock directory    weight calculation.c  3 :Is that directory information is replicated on theo1 :entire cluster? If yes, How I can achieve this ?t  A   Achieve specifically what?  The DLM replicates and rebuilds andi=   relocates the data structures and the mastership as needed.   - :2. What happens when Master node goes down? r  1   As far as applications are concerned, not much.t  2 :I understood that information will re-master, but :sorry I didn't get it.   5   What specifically is it that you do not understand?h  F   The data and the structures are distributed across all nodes in the I   cluster.  In the event of a failure, other nodes will resolve dangling  H   locks and will rebuild the lock database back into a consistent state.  B   If you really want to know how the DLM works, take a look at theA   Programming Concepts and the System Service reference (to learnlD   the basics) and then look at the VAXcluster Principles (admittedlyF   harder to find) and the Internals and Data Structures Manual (IDSM).H   The IDSM is probably the best starting point for the internal details.  E   I *think* you simply don't yet grasp the level of data replication  F   that is built into the DLM design -- I *think* you are assuming thatE   the data is not distributed across multiple nodes.  (We do not have F   the full lock data structures completely and explicitly replicated, I   but we have sufficient replication to permit rebuilding the full data.)s   	--   H   I'm playing slightly loose with the terms and the comments, and there J   are certainly areas -- the contents of the lock value block in specific G   failure cases, for instance -- where some data in the lock trees can n,   be potentially lost during a node failure.  ?   Again, please skim the VAXcluster Principles and/or the IDSM..  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:28:12 GMTo2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?e1 Message-ID: <wUJq7.467$YP.16907@news.cpqcorp.net>t  b In article <786739d6.0109210708.2572cd32@posting.google.com>, ndodderi@yahoo.com (Natesha) writes:E :I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM int :Java.     Huh?  F   Is this code running on OpenVMS?  If so, please use the OpenVMS DLM.  K   A DLM is a large and hugely complex project, and not particularly suited oJ   for newsgroup discussions and newsgroup design.  It is also not a design6   project that is suited for a limited implementation.  H   Since this is apparently not a Compaq project, you'll very likely end E   up reading various computer science research and design projects onsI   distributed processing, and you will also want to acquire and read the  )   IDSM and VAXcluster Principles manuals.-  G   The "fun" with any DLM design involves maintaining consistency acrosswG   all participating members, and particularly consistency over the many F   potential failures -- this is something that you apparently already F   understand, but you may not (and no offense is intended) understand    the scale of this effort.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:06:48 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org1 Subject: Re: How resource directory works in DLM?a3 Message-ID: <Xx1zWHzvNI+t@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  b In article <786739d6.0109210708.2572cd32@posting.google.com>, ndodderi@yahoo.com (Natesha) writes:F > I have requirement to implement some limited functionality of DLM in > Java.n > C > What happens when Directory node&#8211;resource name mapping hashc, > function returns the node id that is down?  C As others have written, it's not a problem.  If the node is down, ae@ cluster state transition is going to occur and the hash function= is going to change.  In the mean time you're not going to getfC much response from the down node.  Your lock won't be granted untilRD after the cluster state transition is complete and the lock database has been rebuilt.o  B There is some tuning to be done and some tradeoffs to be made withB respect to dead node detection.  Detect aggressively and you won'tA have to wait long for a stalled lock request to a dead node.  But/A you also won't be able to tolerate brief communications failures.e   > ; > Please can give more information on Directory rebuilding?-  A Conceptually it's quite simple.  You start from scratch and allow @ all the cluster nodes to re-acquire all the locks that they held prior to the state transition.  ? You know that this can be done because all such locks are known @ to be compatible (they couldn't have been held otherwise).  EachE node that holds a lock has a copy of the lock (and resource) retained0D in local memory.  So there's no problem with a node forgetting about the locks that it holds.  D Obviously, no new locks can be granted until the existing locks haveJ all been reacquired.  Any requests queued up prior to the state transition3 have to remain pending during the database rebuild.>   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:45:18 -0400t5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> , Subject: Re: Info about motif and OS version1 Message-ID: <woIq7.460$YP.17005@news.cpqcorp.net>s  H Uh, because I believe -10 isn't a valid input to this command.  It's notJ uncommon for things not to create windows that have coordinates offscreen.     upadhyaya wrote in message ...E >>  What happens?  Simple mis-positioning, or (for instance) does the  >>  emulator fail?> >  What do you mean by mis-positioning? is it something like -& > create/term/detach/wind=(x=-10,y=10)5 >  In the above case decterm is not displayed at all.w >  >tH >>  Please provide the specific OpenVMS and DECwindows versions, and theE >>  specific ECOs involved, and the details of the specific X Windows  >>  emulator(s) involved.m( >X window emulator is eXcursion V7.2.181 >: >sindhu $ product show product= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------e6 >PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATE= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------7: >DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1          Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4           Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS INTERNET_PRODUCTS V1.1   Platform    Available: >DEC AXPVMS NS_NAV_EXPORT V2.0-21    Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.1             Platform    Available: >DEC AXPVMS OSAK V3.0-M              Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS OSU_HTTPD V2.0-A         Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS RTR V4.1-291             Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-9             Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS TNT V3.0-A               Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.1                 Oper System Available= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------# >l >Sarayu $ product show product= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ 6 >PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATE= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------o: >DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1          Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4           Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.1             Platform    Available: >DEC AXPVMS RTR V4.1-291             Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-9             Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS TNT V3.2                 Full LP     Available: >DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.1                 Oper System Available= >----------------------------------- ----------- ------------  >  >  >  >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:23:36 +0100  From: agreig@my-deja.com9 Subject: Itanium server with Alpha processor add-in card?C8 Message-ID: <qntlqtk5h9fipevfigh3lqt703l4ksdfr8@4ax.com>  C I have heard it suggested (including by members of VMS engineering)iE that it might have made sense to support Alphaservers with additionalTD VAX processors to ease migration but this was ruled out at the time.  A How hard would it be to design a generic Alpha processor card forsD Itanium servers and modify VMS to schedule Alpha code on this CPU ifD present? Seems to me this might be an easier task than a VAX/Itanium VEST (AEST).  = Could both be done? Anyone know if such a thing is even beingeB considered. Or Alternatively any reasons this would be a bad idea? -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:51 -06000( From: emanuel stiebler <emu@ecubics.com>= Subject: Re: Itanium server with Alpha processor add-in card?H+ Message-ID: <3BAB6A87.B585B7C3@ecubics.com>-   agreig@my-deja.com wrote:n > C > How hard would it be to design a generic Alpha processor card fort > Itanium servers    Just a card ;-)a  6 > and modify VMS to schedule Alpha code on this CPU if > present?    H Why do you think, this is easier/better than just having an ALPHA box on	 the net ?   ? > Could both be done? Anyone know if such a thing is even beingfD > considered. Or Alternatively any reasons this would be a bad idea?  D Price ? I'm sure if dec/compaq/hp is doing such a developement, this would be for a goooooodwG price. So just having a nice ALPHA box on the net is probably much mored cost effective.t   my .02 cents  . P.S. Or just emulate the VAX or ALPHA code ;-)   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Sep 2001 13:25:02 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents, Message-ID: <9off3e$2emn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ' In article <3BA7AC8C.47A4BD21@iee.org>,..  "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes: |> .$ |> This cannot be worth a whole heap |> either these days.u |> t+ |> Surely COMPAQ would sanction the releasei0 |> of this sort of stuff? It's two architectures |> old after all!k  > Sure.  It's scheduled for release immediately after Ultrix-32.   :-) or rather :-(r   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:20:57 GMTX2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contents1 Message-ID: <JNJq7.466$YP.16992@news.cpqcorp.net>m  ` In article <9off3e$2emn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:( :In article <3BA7AC8C.47A4BD21@iee.org>,/ : "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes:r :|> % :|> This cannot be worth a whole heapt :|> either these days. :|> , :|> Surely COMPAQ would sanction the release1 :|> of this sort of stuff? It's two architecturesi :|> old after all!  H   I've been discussing the release of this code off-line, both with Bob J   Supnik and with the OpenVMS Business Manager that can clear the release    of the code.  ? :Sure.  It's scheduled for release immediately after Ultrix-32.   B   Please consider the target audience that will read your remarks.  E   Please also consider the affects of your comments on your audience.a  8   Lately, I really feel like I have a target on my back.  H   Put another way, I will only comment that comp.os.vms and its readers C   and readership would be a relatively inappropriate newsgroup for  0   Ultrix-32 questions and comments and feedback.      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 18:58:27 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o6 Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3500/3600/3800 boot ROM contentsH Message-ID: <y4pu8kcwgc.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  J >   I've been discussing the release of this code off-line, both with Bob L >   Supnik and with the OpenVMS Business Manager that can clear the release  >   of the code.  N I must have missed something - I was under the impression Supnik was no longer with Compaq.  A > :Sure.  It's scheduled for release immediately after Ultrix-32.t: >   Lately, I really feel like I have a target on my back.  N No, please don't. But I can understand some frustration with companies keepingN information that is old and no longer commercially valuable but of interest toM others to themselves. I do think VMS engineering, likely though your efforts,bA has done a great job in making such information freely available.    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Sep 2001 16:06:21 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l9 Subject: Re: Mozilla 0.9.4 last one available on VMS V7.1t, Message-ID: <9ofoht$2jge$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  & Probably a silly question, but........  J Can Mozilla-0.9.4 for VMS be built and run on a VAX running VMS-7.{1|2|3}?   bill  w --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:55:46 +0200s% From: "IdrEASY" <IdrEASY@bigfoot.com>C( Subject: OpenVMS Alpha - Sorting problem( Message-ID: <9oeoj8$h3$1@as201.hinet.hr>  % AlphaStation 1200 and OpenVMS 7.1-1H2   7 When I'm sorting from command line, all is correct, butu2 from command procedure, if using many keys or haveE big file, sort always do same numbers of blocks, but not all of them.g   What's the problem?1   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:03:30 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) F Subject: OT: Gartner Recommends Businesses Look At Alternatives To IIS' Message-ID: <9ofaai$d02$3@joe.rice.edu>d& Keywords: gartner,makes,sense,for,once  6    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-201-7239473-0.html     "Gartner Viewpoint    Special to CNET News.comg$    September 20, 2001, 12:05 p.m. PT  %    By John Pescatore, Gartner Analystr  G    With the emergence of the Nimda worm--the latest in a long series toeA    attack Microsoft's Internet Information Server (IIS) and other ?    software--Gartner believes it's time for businesses with Web-A    applications to start investigating less vulnerable Web servero    products.    .    .    .G    Code Red also showed how easy it is to attack IIS Web servers. Thus,DE    securely using Internet-exposed IIS Web servers has a high cost of2G    ownership. Businesses using Microsoft's IIS Web server software have F    to update every IIS server with every Microsoft security patch thatI    comes out--almost weekly. However, Nimda has again shown the high riskkF    of using IIS and the effort involved in keeping up with Microsoft's    frequent security patches.e  D    Gartner recommends that businesses hit by both Code Red and NimdaD    immediately investigate alternatives to IIS, including moving WebI    applications to Web server software from other vendors such as iPlanet E    and Apache. Although those Web servers have required some securitytG    patches, they have much better security records than IIS and are notrG    under active attack by the vast number of virus and worm writers..."e   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:12:40 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>l+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing clearaH Message-ID: <y4n13p2c93.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  7 David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:e  F >     Jan, I suspect Rob's remark was a sly reference to Nazi Germany.   That's what I was assuming.r  0 > I seriously doubt you were involved with that.  3 Yes, it would have been difficult at age -16 or so.r  ' But he said collective, not individual.o   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:19:09 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>o+ Subject: Re: OT: Let's make one thing cleareH Message-ID: <y4k7yt2bya.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ' Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:   M > Exactly the same thing here.  But what Jan wanted was for some entity to befH > where you could go to say "please review this and tell me if it can beI > declassified".  It takes a MAJOR amount of litigation (in terms of many I > years) for that to happen in this country, and that's as it should be. h  H It seems we are in agreement in principle, but likely not with regard toK implementation. It _is_ a difficult question, but it is just not acceptableyF in a free society to have pockets of unaccountability. "Quem custodiat custodes", you know.  L > For example, for all the hype around JFK's assassination, there are still O > sealed government records of some of the proceedings.  35+ years of the press O > bitching about it and trying to sue, trying to force it into the open, hasn't- > made it happen.   L Good example. So why is this the case? I find it very difficult to imagine a# valid reason why this should be so.l   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:37:36 +0200s& From: John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch> Subject: OT: WTC - a final wordk* Message-ID: <3BAB6CD0.A967BB39@dplanet.ch>  F This is my final comment on the WTC/Pentagon attacks.  It is a lengthyC article about why I believe that the current military action is thep wrong way to solve the problem.-  D It might strike a chord with you and give you reasons to change yourF opinions, or it may not.  If it does and you want to discus it further3 please contact me off-line at mcleanj@swissoline.che     John McLeanM   -----------------l    H It seems to me that the "doves" and the "hawks" in any discussion of theE attacks of September 11 are simply looking at different approaches toeH punishing the perpetrators and trying to prevent anything similar to the$ WTC/Pentagon attack happening again.  G The doves are recommending that the reasons for the attack are examinedtD and appropriate reactions are taken.  On the assumption (still to be? confirmed) that US foreign policy is partly to blame, it may be > necessary to reconsider certain aspects of it.  Perhaps a moreE even-handed approach should be taken to resolve the Israeli-PalestinetH dispute.  Perhaps US troops (especially ground-troops) should be reducedD in Saudi Arabia and more emphasis is put on monitoring Iraq from the air.  F The doves are also recommending that conclusive proof of the source of@ the attacks be established (and certainly not fabricated) beforeA bringing that person or organisation to justice.   At present anya< suspect other than Osama bin Laden is being ignored.  (Other@ organisations - one being Mossad - have suggested other possibleA masterminds but little appears to have been done to explore these)F possibilities.) Certainly links to bin Laden seem to have appeared butG would they stand up in a court of law and do they really prove anythingn ?   D It is not hard to propose a scenario where the masterminds have someE kind of association with bin Laden but where he was not involved withfB any of this.  The mastermind may have been a previous associate, aC current associate with certain autonomy, someone who simply employs5G people who were former associates and so on.  If we assume that severaloH groups of terrorists exist in the Islamic world, the fact that they haveA a common enemy is likely to see dialogue between these groups andyF establishing a link to bin Laden is nothing unless the exact nature of that link can be determined.  H The money-trail aspect is interesting but to date it has proved little. H Bin Laden's strong financial position might suggest that he was involvedH but so far this can only be a hypothesis.  While it may be unlikely thatF an oil-rich country or individual would finance take these attacks, itH cannot be entirely discounted; a "suppressed" USA would achieve any aimsH based on religion, but at the same time not seriously impact the flow of money from the flow of oil.     F The "doves" want more proof before any retaliatory action is taken andG more importantly consider that the reaction to date by the USA has beenn rather unwise.  H Military action is apparently being planned but it risks having no clearC and defined target, that is no individual or group who was actuallyvG responsible for the attacks.  Bombing a country into submission becauseiD one person who may or may not be living there, and may or may not be7 responsible, is seems rather foolish and irresponsible.t  B Despite all the talk an posturing from the Bush administration theB response for this attack will have to be quite unlike any previous military action.  F The current exercise, which appears to involve displaying the strengthB of the US defence forces in the region, are about as relevant as aE strongman displaying his muscles to an ant.  It might have caused thetH civilian population to flee in the face of a repeat of the last 10 or 20A years of war, but it has done little to demoralise the respectivedH governments who regard it as simply another in a long list of aggressive acts by the USA.  G An attack against Afghanistan - and, some wish, against Pakistan - willfF only incur the wrath of their brother Islamic countries, especially ifC those attacks are widespread and lack a specific target.   When themD equipment and capabilities of the US forces and those of the IslamicH countries are compared it is clear that the Islamic countries will standG no chance in coventional warfare.  Certainly the Islamic troops will be?H prepared to die for their countries - there is little dispute about thatH - but they are also aware of the futility of that approach.  If they areF to have any chance at all they will be forced to resort to terrorism. D And if that  terrorism is viewed as a sacred duty to their religion,2 there will certainly be no shortage of volunteers.  H Any such terrorism may appear as overt statements such as the attacks onA September 11 or as covert tactics such as the use of bio-chemical 	 weapons.    F On their own any terrorist acts are extremely difficult to prevent butH when the terrorists are prepared to die for their cause - and hence haveG no consideration of escape - the situation becomes almost impossible.  lG If President Bush was attending some public function and there was justPH one suicide-terrorist in the crowd with explosives strapped to his body, the outcome could be horrific.  F These are the reasons why conventional warfare against terrorists - orF even the countries which may or may not be harbouring the terrorists -H is fraught with enormous risk and why the USA should be discouraged from@ taking such an approach.  Bringing the masterminds to justice isF certainly fine, but doing that by military means without incurring theH wrath of other countries and without causing an increase in the level of" terrorism is damn near impossible.  G If the USA only employs diplomatic methods it could appear that Bush is C doing nothing and he may appear to be weak and indecisive.  Even if-D there is no terrorism during the rest of his term in office it couldD easily appear that hehas done nothing and his chances of re-electionH would look slim indeed.  On the other hand, excessively overt demands onF other countries, coupled perhaps with military action, is not a usefulG long-term solution.  The American public are not likely to thank him if & terrorist attacks become more common.     F The way to a peaceful solution is to get more of the Islamic countriesF on-side and to a point where they not only denounce terrorism but also" take active steps to eliminate it.  C Getting them on-side does not involve forcing them into a resentfulsF submission but it means treating them with some respect and civility. H The Islamic countries are largely poor countries with little or no voiceG in world affairs.  Giving them the chance to be heard and entering intoeG dialogue with them about ways to improve the situation for their peoplee will probably achieve far more.u  A Yes there are injustices in these countries - at least by westernrF standards - but none of us were given the chance to decide our countryH of birth, and we make the best with the opportunities that we have.  TheH way forward for these people might be for us to encourage the respectiveH governments to slowly change their ways of thinking, to relax oppressiveD laws and enable the citizens some freedom of thought and expression.  F The main thing is that we need to create an environment where there isG no reason for terrorist tactics to be considered necessary, and that is # the only way towards a safer world.o  F This diplomatic and thoughtful approach has far fewer risks than to goF in with guns blazing.  Most importantly it is far more likely to avoidD any repeat of September 11 and that is what I am cetain we all want.     John McLeani   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:24:28 GMTc# From: GreyCloud <mist@malarkey.com>d( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center, Message-ID: <3BAAEC26.B99BF1CF@malarkey.com>   "D.Webb" wrote:  > l > In article <ziuqO+Gccw2pF6o5IjEAa4OPLand@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:E > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:12:38 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukX > >(D.Webb) wrote: > >-n > >>In article <LgSqOwV2hzOHmxGEeXZAhel2bnkU@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:G > >>>On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:50 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukf > >>>(D.Webb) wrote: > >>> p > >>>>In article <x+apO6dpmylR4ghOw=bgBMbMSABu@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:K > >>>>>On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:03:45 +0200, John McLean <mcleanj@dplanet.ch>n
 > >>>>>wrote:sM > >>>>>>Now that's interesting.  There was a recent move - led by the Swiss IeO > >>>>>>think - to stop or greatly reduce arms sales throughout the world.  The H > >>>>>>idea was that a reduction in sales will should stop a lot of the" > >>>>>>violence and civil unrest. > >>>>>>O > >>>>>>IRC, most countries supported the idea ... but the US voted against it.e > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>John McLeanl > >>>>> I > >>>>>    Absolutely the U.S. voted against it.  The proposal would haveXG > >>>>>violated the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (Right toA > >>>>>Keep and Bear Arms).t > >>>>>s > >>>>Q > >>>>How does a ban on selling arms internationally break the second amendment ?uL > >>>>The US already has some export restrictions on Arms sales doesn't it ? > >>>>P > >>>>For that matter are there not any restrictions in the US to selling guns ?; > >>>>ie could someone sell a gun to say a 5 year old kid ?u > >>>MI > >>>    I don't remember the exact wording of the resolution, but it wascG > >>>done in such a way as to severely restrict or ban handgun sales toc" > >>>normal, law abiding citizens. > >>>wG > >>>    There are plenty of restrictions against gun sales in the U.S.d? > >>>If memory serves, there are over 20,000 laws regarding gun-F > >>>restrictions is the U.S.  I'm not sure about sales to minors, butC > >>>my instinct tells me that minors cannot purchase guns.  I knowi* > >>>convicted felons cannot own firearms. > >>>g > >> > >>@ > >>Ok. There are currently restrictions on gun sales in the US.@ > >>So does the second amendment actually mention selling guns ?L > >>Or is it as suggested by "Right to keep and bear arms" purely to do with/ > >>the ability of US citizens to own firearms.- > >>L > >>I honestly don't know what the Second amendment says so it could well be& > >>it explicitly mentions arms sales.L > >>Does it since otherwise I fail to see how restricting arms sales even toQ > >>normal law abiding citizens can break it - and you have already admitted that-O > >>sales to other groups are restricted without breaking the second amendment.s > >> > >r3 > >    From http://www.usconstitution.net/const.txt0 > >/F > >A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a freeE > >State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be)
 > >infringed.  > >bB > >    The meaning of the Militia at that time was all able-bodied@ > >male citizens.  Since the Bill of Rights primarily spells out= > >rights, the proper meaning is exactly what the main clausew= > >states, that the right of the people to keep and bear Arms  > >shall not be infringed. > >eB > >    The right is a proper right in that it stems from the rightA > >of self-defense, which stems from the right to self-ownership.m > >sE > >    As far as the constitutionality of all the gun laws, that's ano > >entirely different subject. > >o > I > From the above it doesn't look to me as though the second amendment hasbI > anything to say about the right to sell arms. The right to sell arms isn. > not the same as right to keep and bear arms. > (eg J > In the UK, being over the age of 18, I have the right to own and consume > alcoholic beverages.K > That does not mean that I have the right to open my house up as a pub andb > sell alcoholic drinks. > ). > P > Hence I still don't see why blocking a motion to ban or reduce arm sales wouldL > be stopped by the US because of the second amendment. It seems more likelyN > the US stopped it because of the power of the American gun lobby in AmericanL > politics. Who would obviously be concerned at any moves which made it more$ > difficult for them to buy weapons. >   F I agree.  However, small business empires don't like to lose business.E It's sad to say that a good portion of the U.S. economy is war based.DC We sell arms to a lot of countries and seems to be done without anyHF thought to future consequences.  Also adding to the fact that the U.S.A government likes the revenue in taxes (collectively from everyoneo	 involved)rG being collected.  As Dwight D. Eisenhower so aptly said "Beware of the -8 Military Industrial Complex".  I wish it were otherwise.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:58:57 +0000i  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACE.003C5651.00@quegw01.btyp>t  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    P I watched this on TV in the UK when it was first aired. There have been a numberN of 'documetaries' [however you want to call them] in the last six months or so on Afghanistan on TV here.  M At the time, most commentators thought it was a reasonable and honest view ofeL life and conditions in that country, and if you had seen it previous to lastC week, perhaps you might not have viewed it in the light you do now?e   Only asking.   Steve Spires        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/21/2001 03:53:55 AMS    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)WJ From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 21 September 2001, 3:53 a.m.   Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center-          6 "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> wrote in message% news:9oeb2d$obg$1@bob.news.rcn.net...k' > In what way was it not a documentary?e  J The most obvious difference was in the presence of background music chosenJ to highlight the message being presented.  The accompanying commentary wasJ also heavily laden with value judgements while rather light on surroundingK details.  The result in no way attempted to present a comprehensive picture & and leave judgements up to the viewer.  D As I said, I don't know that anything was actively falsified or evenI seriously misleading, only that this was *not* a simple report:  it had aeI message to present, and presented it very consistently - very much like arJ couple of WW II propaganda films I remember seeing in my youth, which alsoE may not have falsified anything but also were hardly straight 'news'.    - bill   > -- > John Saunderss > jws@ma.ultranet.com  >  >  >,   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:35:22 -0400 ' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>o( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center( Message-ID: <9of8iu$7ra$1@pyrite.mv.net>  - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagen) news:00256ACE.003C5651.00@quegw01.btyp... H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazau >u >bK > I watched this on TV in the UK when it was first aired. There have been a2 numberJ > of 'documetaries' [however you want to call them] in the last six months or sot > on Afghanistan on TV here. >hL > At the time, most commentators thought it was a reasonable and honest view ofI > life and conditions in that country, and if you had seen it previous toM lastE > week, perhaps you might not have viewed it in the light you do now?t  J That's possible - though I still would have been quite surprised to see itE on CNN's 'Headline News' channel, since they normally stick to prettyf straight news coverage.   F John Saunders' comment that what he remembered was a brutal killing isF relevant, in that this was clearly what he was *supposed* to remember.H That's the difference between news coverage and propaganda - even if theL propaganda is utterly truthful.  And the difference is fairly subtle becauseL it has to be:  people tend to resent overt manipulation.  But the differenceH between that film and, say, the memorable Vietnam-era picture of an ARVNJ intelligence officer shooting a kneeling suspect in the head is in the way they were presented.  K In the current context, it makes me worry, since it does seem to be part ofcH a definite pattern of preparing the U.S. population to support somethingL like a conventional war rather than the kind of 'surgical' activity, whetherK via small, fast conventional military action or something more covert, thatsF one would expect to be an at least equally effective way of getting atF terrorists and more efficient (even just considering our own potentialE losses, leaving aside civilians who couldn't get out of the way and aeK military whose only offense would be trying to keep its country's territory L inviolate).  It's not just CNN:  all news outlets are stressing our supposedK unanimity of purpose and solidarity of support for something we still don'tp know the details of.  K CNN's Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider, who has in the past appearedaF to be fairly acute, made a couple of surprising comments just prior toI last-night's address by GWB to Congress.  First, he stated that their own J polling indicated that the U.S. population was split fairly evenly betweenI supporting action only to round up and bring to justice those responsibleaG for the WTC/Pentagon attacks and supporting a wider war on terrorism inoI general - something that one would be hard-pressed to expect from most of ) the rest of the coverage that's occurred.e  K Second, he said there is a reported division within the Bush administrationeG between elements (including Cheney and Wolfowitz) favoring an immediateuI strike at Iraq and those (led by Powell) who feel that this would destroyeK the nascent international coalition they're trying to build.  This suggests K that any evidence linking Iraq to the attacks is tenuous at best - but thattL the administration (possibly including Powell, whose objections seem only toH be practical) doesn't seem to feel the need for much evidence to justify? action, which is precisely the kind of thing I'm worried about.o  E Bush's continued characterization of terrorists as people who hate ustF because of our democracy (which most of them likely couldn't care lessI about) and who are intent on 'taking over the world', rather than just onoJ stopping what they see as our meddling in their part of it, and escalationH of demands on the Taliban to include releasing all foreign prisoners andK allowing on-going U.S. inspections of areas of their territory hardly seemsdI to be seeking any kind of peaceful solution, nor does his phrasing "ThesehL demands are not open to negotiation or discussion.  The Taliban must act andJ act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share inJ their fate."  The fact that the U.S. would simply laugh in the face of anyL country so impertinent as to make similar demands of us just underscores whyJ we're not held in great esteem in so much of the world - and the fact thatE we're still so ready to act in this manner does not bode well for thef future.l  K Bush clearly intends to try to bully countries that may not agree with such I belligerence with his sound-bite "Either you are with us, or you are withaI the terrorists."  I hope some countries have the gumption to reply "Don'tvJ tell us where we stand:  we don't support either of you, and at least some) of the reasons are disturbingly similar."n  % There is indeed some visible dissent:   L http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000075791sep21.story?coll=  la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation%2Dmanual  C Whether it will be heard in time to be of any help to the people ofi Afghanistan remains to be seen.w   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:59:13 +0000h  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center/ Message-ID: <00256ACE.004758E3.00@quegw01.btyp>   L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza     Bill,n  P You said [I tried to email you off list but it was returned undelivered - if you. feel like it you can privately email me back];  K >That's possible - though I still would have been quite surprised to see ittF >on CNN's 'Headline News' channel, since they normally stick to pretty >straight news coverage.  P Yes, I see your point - I don't generally watch CNN on satellite and not sure ifP it's the 'same' CNN you get over there - as I say, the programmes over here have( been presented as straight documetaries.  G >John Saunders' comment that what he remembered was a brutal killing isrG >relevant, in that this was clearly what he was *supposed* to remember.o  N One of the others that we saw on TV here was a 3-part series [late night BBC2]I on one guys travels throughout the region secretly filming [and getting aeO surprising amount of help and good interviews/chats with rank and file Taliban]tM and one thing I do remember about that was his disappointment [not really the M right word, as he was also glad he didn't see any executions] when he visited > the Football Stadium in Kabul, and a football match broke out!   ;^D    Steve Sn        ; "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> on 09/21/2001 11:35:22 AMt    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)oK From:      "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>, 21 September 2001, 11:35 a.m.    Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Centert          - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagex) news:00256ACE.003C5651.00@quegw01.btyp... H > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plazao >t > K > I watched this on TV in the UK when it was first aired. There have been as numberJ > of 'documetaries' [however you want to call them] in the last six months or soo > on Afghanistan on TV here.   [cut...]  % There is indeed some visible dissent:i  L http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000075791sep21.story?coll=  la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation%2Dmanual  C Whether it will be heard in time to be of any help to the people ofo Afghanistan remains to be seen.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:57:49 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>f( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <rodmqtcaomsdgnm4qrvg6fojt0cnp5e2ia@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:59:13 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:,  M >Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street PlazaA >i >  >Bill, >n    Q >Yes, I see your point - I don't generally watch CNN on satellite and not sure ifaQ >it's the 'same' CNN you get over there - as I say, the programmes over here havee) >been presented as straight documetaries.   ; We get CNN International (Europe) which is a mixture of CNN D International specific programming, European programming  and CNN US? Domestic service. It used to also carry a few CNN Headline NewseD bulletins but not any more. During a major world or US event most of: the coverage is straight from the CNN US Domestic service.  A It is possible to get the CNN US service  but not with any of thee@ normal direct broadcast satellite services or on cable. You need
 another dish.    >lH >>John Saunders' comment that what he remembered was a brutal killing isH >>relevant, in that this was clearly what he was *supposed* to remember. > O >One of the others that we saw on TV here was a 3-part series [late night BBC2]iJ >on one guys travels throughout the region secretly filming [and getting aP >surprising amount of help and good interviews/chats with rank and file Taliban]N >and one thing I do remember about that was his disappointment [not really theN >right word, as he was also glad he didn't see any executions] when he visited? >the Football Stadium in Kabul, and a football match broke out!   F Missed that. Was it a John Simpson report? There's a lot of backgroundF info on Afghanistan in John Simpson's book published a couple of yearsC ago. John Simpson managed to be in Iraq during the Gulf War, Serbia-9 during the Kosovo campaign and was in Kabul last Tuesday.m     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:15:15 +01001% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center8 Message-ID: <ujlmqt0sh9289mvm32os55rdv20g0c93h2@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:41:40 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robertd Deininger) wrote:b  D >>Taday I spoke with a fellow who has a close relative who worked onH >asbestos "remedation" in the towers.  All the asbestos was removed from7 >the south tower, and the north one was 60% complete.    >(D >He wonders if the replacement of (inaccessible, basically harmless)I >asbestos insulation with something inferior contributed to the collapse.O  E Seen a few more reports on this subject and talked to some engineers.>A This does appear to be the key. The original design of the towerseC specified asbestos but even during building the regulations changedsE and, as you say, remedial work was undertaken to remove the remainingn= asbestos later. Best estimates seem to be that the originallylF specified asbestos would have protected the buildings for perhaps fourD to six hours. Might even have allowed the jet fueled fire to drop in: temperature to something the towers could then withstand.   @ So it looks like the original architects did design the buildingF correctly and only later 'safety' changes greatly reduced the building fire resistance.  E For avoidance of doubt nothing I'm suggesting reduces the criminalityuE of the terrorist attack but maybe lessons can be learned here in case' of future fires.  K >Fireproof boxes aren't really fireproof.  They're supposed to tranfer heat D >so slowly that the fire burns itself out before the contents can beJ >destroyed.  I guess the prinicple is the same in a steel skyscraper.  YouD >can tolerate a hot fire, as long as you keep the heat away from theA >steel.  Asbestos is very good at that.  Concrete is not so good.p >t >Just random thoughts...   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:42:20 -0400-+ From: "John Saunders" <jws@ma.ultranet.com> ( Subject: Re: OT:: Re: World Trade Center+ Message-ID: <9ofu6e$il9$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9of8iu$7ra$1@pyrite.mv.net... >u/ > <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in message>+ > news:00256ACE.003C5651.00@quegw01.btyp... J > > Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street > Plazad > >h > >>K > > I watched this on TV in the UK when it was first aired. There have been  at > numberL > > of 'documetaries' [however you want to call them] in the last six months > or soi > > on Afghanistan on TV here. > >eI > > At the time, most commentators thought it was a reasonable and honest- view > ofK > > life and conditions in that country, and if you had seen it previous toe > lastG > > week, perhaps you might not have viewed it in the light you do now?e >oL > That's possible - though I still would have been quite surprised to see itG > on CNN's 'Headline News' channel, since they normally stick to prettyn > straight news coverage.b > H > John Saunders' comment that what he remembered was a brutal killing isH > relevant, in that this was clearly what he was *supposed* to remember.  L Bill, I remembered a lot more than the brutal killing. I remembered that theL capital, Kabul, is a bombed-out shell. I remember that the Taliban claim notH to have repaired anything because they have other priorities. I rememberH that they are proud to have ended civil war in their country and to have. brought an Islamic government to their people.  I I remember that women aren't allowed to work outside the home. I rememberoH that this is a problem for a family without a father. I remember a womanH grinding up moldy bread to feed to her children - the bread was meant as animal feed.  J I remember that the rate of death during delivery is one in five, and thatK Afghanistan has almost the highest infant mortality rate in the world. ThisgK is because women can't be attended by male doctors, and most female doctorseL had the sense to leave the country. Since they don't permit the education ofL girls over the age of 12, this suggests that their infant mortality rate andG the rate of death during delivery will continue to increase, eventuallyrL solving the problem for us the natural way. The report didn't say, but I betJ contraception is illegal, so they'll be killing off all their women fairlyJ soon. Combine this with the fact that homosexual activity is punishable byH death, and I think you'll see the population declining steadily over the# course of the next few generations.   L There was much more in the story, but to summarize: there appears to be veryD little good in Afghanistan right now. This suggests that even if theF reporter had desired to do a story on all the good things happening in5 Afghanistan, there would have been nothing to report.w  + Sometimes the truth is the best propaganda.  --
 John Saunders: jws@ma.ultranet.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:13:35 -0400-0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot>/ Subject: Re: Question: Limiting Processor Usage,5 Message-ID: <cLIq7.61478$TW.333745@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>K  : Quantum can be shorter for processes in different classes.: With priorities the quantum is the same for every process.B Once VMS give the CPU to a process, the process wil have it for nnJ miliseconds if it only does CPU bound procesing. With class scheduling set: at 50% it will only be given the CPU for nn/2 miliseconds.   --   Syltrem ; http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site)     G "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> a crit dans le message news::( ENuq$fSwqYvw@eisner.encompasserve.org...A > In article <Ga3q7.61103$TW.329998@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem"d( <syltrem@videotron.ca.spammenot> writes: >3F > > With the process priority (PRIO), all processes will have the same	 length ofrL > > time granted to them but processes in a higher priority will be gven the CPUaG > > more often than the ones in a lower priority. So that's a differentc consept.I > > Both can live together. And again, if the process does an IO or has ay waitJ > > of some kind the CPU will be given to another process at once, it does noto* > > wait for the time quantum to complete. >dH >    Which is basically what happens within the scheduler ever since VMSH >    1.0, even without the new features in 7.3.  I don't see how the new+ >    features address the original problem.o >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:07:10 +0200s& From: "pj" <PeterJan.Rusch@Compaq.com>% Subject: Samba on OpenVMS protection.i1 Message-ID: <mQHq7.457$YP.16952@news.cpqcorp.net>h  4 I installed the latest version of Samba for openvms.   But i am getting errors.    Checking with testparms unveals:  
 $ testparm  3 Load smb config files from /samba_root/lib/smb.conf    Processing section "[homes]"   Processing section "[test]"e  $ No path in service test - using /tmp   Processing section "[myshare]"   Processing section "[kits]"e   Loaded services file OK.  J WARNING: lock directory /samba_root/var/locks should have permissions 0755   for browsing to work  F I already changed permissions on the directory , even with (W:RWED) no result.e  G When I want to open a share logon goes OK but the a message apears withs   $ smbclient //utopjr/kitsg  C Added interface ip=16.197.80.8 bcast=16.255.255.255 nmask=255.0.0.0a  A Password: Domain=[DIGITALWSUTO] OS=[OpenVMS] Server=[Samba 2.0.3]n   tree connect failed: code 0v   What is wrong here?   
 P.J Compaq   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 08:30:53 -0700( From: andrew@akplus.com (Andrew Kendall) Subject: VAX DOCUMENTs= Message-ID: <2c1abc0a.0109210730.3fc14f41@posting.google.com>   
 Hello All,  B I have been struggling to use VAX DOCUMENT to generate HTML files, with the command:e  '     $DOCUMENT <sdml_file> SOFTWARE HTML*  E I have managed okay so far, but unfortunately I do not have immediaterF access to full printed documentation, and I am stuck on a minor issue.% Can anybody out there kindly tell me:   F (1) How to stop VAX DOCUMENT breaking up a big SDML file into multipleD HTML files. It obviously thinks I don't want a single big html page,C and it builds in 'next' and 'previous' hyperlinks to join the pagesw" together. How can I override this?  E (2) If I've come the wrong group for this question, can anyone advisee me accordingly.   8 Your help would be most appreciated - thanks in advance.   Regards  Andrew Kendall   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:56:10 +0200t< From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <noone@home.com> Subject: Re: VAX DOCUMENTf( Message-ID: <3BAB631A.517075A1@home.com>   Hi.i6 As default DECdoc splits your input in 20-30 Kb parts.  - If you use DECdoc with at least version 3.2 :h  / $ DEFINE DOC$HTML_OPTIONS "MANUAL_SEGMENTATION"t  4 (This will make the body of your SGML file to become> one (large) HTML file. The Index will will be a separate file.< You can than add <html_segment>("apples") tags to split your HTML output wherever you want.   or    $ DEFINE DOC$HTML_FILESIZE xxxxx  C (set xxxxx to the file size in bytes of each part of your document)u  , Or add the following tag to your SGML file :  # <HTML_OPTIONS>(MANUAL_SEGMENTATION)s   This is from the manual 0 "DECdocument Tutorial and Application Guide" for DECdoc version 3.3.t  : I bought a kit a month ago, and I had to ask separatly for; the docs. I got them as 11 Postscript files that I have runn* through Acrobat Destiller to create PDF's.   Regardst Jan-Erik Sderholm.e     Andrew Kendall wrote:  >  > Hello All, > D > I have been struggling to use VAX DOCUMENT to generate HTML files, > with the command:n > ) >     $DOCUMENT <sdml_file> SOFTWARE HTMLa > G > I have managed okay so far, but unfortunately I do not have immediate)H > access to full printed documentation, and I am stuck on a minor issue.' > Can anybody out there kindly tell me:h > H > (1) How to stop VAX DOCUMENT breaking up a big SDML file into multipleF > HTML files. It obviously thinks I don't want a single big html page,E > and it builds in 'next' and 'previous' hyperlinks to join the pagess$ > together. How can I override this? > G > (2) If I've come the wrong group for this question, can anyone adviseo > me accordingly.  > : > Your help would be most appreciated - thanks in advance. > 	 > Regardss > Andrew Kendall   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:45:57 GMT & From: "john nixon" <jnixon@cfl.rr.com># Subject: Re: We are back from CETSyh> Message-ID: <FoIq7.191360$aZ.34075547@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>   Bob,   Thank you for the quote below.    F "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars> wrote in message- news:BeuQ88jPZG+q@eisner.encompasserve.org...p >tF > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safetyL > deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin Historical Review > of Pennsylvania. 1759a >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:08:44 +0530 $ From: "upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com>" Subject: Re: Which file to change!1 Message-ID: <e%Cq7.444$YP.16933@news.cpqcorp.net>   D >  What happens?  Simple mis-positioning, or (for instance) does the >  emulator fail?y=   What do you mean by mis-positioning? is it something like - %  create/term/detach/wind=(x=-10,y=10)y/ (Note place x at -10. check '-' sign before 10)r4   In the above case decterm is not displayed at all.    G >  Please provide the specific OpenVMS and DECwindows versions, and theaD >  specific ECOs involved, and the details of the specific X Windows >  emulator(s) involved.' X window emulator is eXcursion V7.2.181s   sindhu $ product show producto< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------5 PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATE < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------9 DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1          Full LP     Availableu9 DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4           Full LP     AvailableC9 DEC AXPVMS INTERNET_PRODUCTS V1.1   Platform    Available 9 DEC AXPVMS NS_NAV_EXPORT V2.0-21    Full LP     Availablen9 DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.1             Platform    Availabler9 DEC AXPVMS OSAK V3.0-M              Full LP     Availablea9 DEC AXPVMS OSU_HTTPD V2.0-A         Full LP     Availablee9 DEC AXPVMS RTR V4.1-291             Full LP     Available 9 DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-9             Full LP     Availables9 DEC AXPVMS TNT V3.0-A               Full LP     Availablec9 DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.1                 Oper System Available < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------   Sarayu $ product show producte< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------5 PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATEh< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------9 DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.1          Full LP     Availableo9 DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-4           Full LP     Available 9 DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.1             Platform    Availableh9 DEC AXPVMS RTR V4.1-291             Full LP     Availablee9 DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-9             Full LP     Available 9 DEC AXPVMS TNT V3.2                 Full LP     Availablen9 DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.1                 Oper System Available < ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------ regards,	 Upadhyaya0   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:31:03 +0100c( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>" Subject: Re: Which file to change!) Message-ID: <3BAB24F7.6864E996@127.0.0.1>:   upadhyaya wrote: > F > >  What happens?  Simple mis-positioning, or (for instance) does the > >  emulator fail?p? >   What do you mean by mis-positioning? is it something like -B' >  create/term/detach/wind=(x=-10,y=10) 1 > (Note place x at -10. check '-' sign before 10) 6 >   In the above case decterm is not displayed at all.  / (sorry if the attribution has gotten scrambled)   F I would strongly suggest trying your experiments with the image called> ICO.EXE in DECW$EXAMPLES, this will provide far more debugging= information. Unless I'm very much mistaken, it will support at "-geometry" setting.   $ mcr decw$examples:ico -h  @ (only present if you asked for the examples/programming files at installation).  = Incidentally, when I enter the command you use above, I get agE %SYSTEM-F-BADPARAM error and a stack dump. This suggests to me you'regD not seeing the error messages. "-10" is the / a  problem. Not seeing" error mesages is a bigger problem. -- p( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  / Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:17:50 +0200 (MET DST)t& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: World Trade Centery6 Message-ID: <200109210617.IAA29286@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   David Beatty wrotes:   >>>a3     How about some examples to support your claims?a6 As I have observed time and again, U.S. foreign policy8 is not perfect, but we've helped far more countries that7 you imply.  Some places we have helped recently include 5 most of the Middle East (Desert Storm), financial aid . to much of the Third World, and Kosovo/Bosnia. <<<.  G Friendship is more then a strategical work together. Friends do accept,mE that we do not do the same every time. Friends do understand if we doiA say, don't kill (bomb) a lot of civil persons in Afghanistan. ThebA terrorist know save places (like Irak) and only persons, which do*C nothing have to do with Taliban, will die. I don't know they way to A stop terrorists, but I know what action will make a lot of peoplehB terrorists too. May be USA should asks the enemy of Taliban (there? are still some in Afghanistan), what can we do to help you withd respects for your religion.tE If you are friend of Israel, then you have to say to Israel, what yousG do is not right. It is crime, not justice. You do the same as the NazisuB did (Sippenhaft = family arrest??), kill Brother, Sister and otherG relations of a murder. To help the Isreals to do so, is not friendship.nE Do friends spy another? I think no!! But USA do it. The spy German anaE all the other Nato pertners. Also the German police did say, that theiD FBI did not inform they fully. The FBI did inform only at a minimum.7 That does not made the work easier. Is this friendship.r   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:06:35 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>- Subject: Re: World Trade CenterRH Message-ID: <y4sndh2cj8.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ) "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> writes:o  M > The haste to pursue a far wider 'war', without regard for anything like dueoG > process, and the underlying sentiment that 'collateral damage' is (ifc< > regrettable) fully justified are what's really dangerous.   L Agreed. Reporting here is implicitly assuming that such collateral damage isN going to occur on a large scale. And a substantial fraction of the inhabitants7 of Afghanistan seem to agree by voting with their feet.i   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 10:09:48 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  Subject: Re: World Trade CentersH Message-ID: <y4pu8l2cdv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  $ John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> writes:  I > The degree of complexity may be different.  I don't know the details of K > the events of which you speak, however, the WTC situation appears to haven6 > required a good amount of planning and coordination.  M While the degree of damage inflicted by the RAF (the group I had been talking M about) was about 2-2.5 orders of magnitude less than that of ten days ago, itcH required, IMO, similar amounts of sophistication, planning, patience and persistence.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:28:10 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)s Subject: Re: World Trade Center . Message-ID: <3baae90b.932500@news.demon.co.uk>  E On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:52:50 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  wrote:   >tM >"Jim Johnson" <Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com> wrote in message0+ >news:3baa399e.22664519@news.demon.co.uk...s >. >... >c( >> Please re-read my reply.  Especially: >>H >> Manners alone would suggest that your comments are in poor taste just7 >> now - REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THEM.e >.4 >That's a very important point indeed to respond to. > F >Without being able to speak for others, the *precise* reason I becameH >involved in this thread was to raise a strong objection to a major, andI >dangerous, over-reaction (specifically, the assertion that we should nottI >simply pursue the perpetrators of the WTC attack but eliminate - withoutsK >noticeable regard for collateral damage - anyone else who we thought might, >pose a future threat):t > M >"we eliminate them. Period.  And you do it before they can do it to you.  IfrK >that sounds overly brutal, too bad.  It's not a problem at all.  You wasteoL >them with extreme prejudice and with any and all means you have available." >lH >When people turn shock and grief into uncontrolled anger that advocatesK >fatal consequences for uninvolved parties, matters of 'poor taste' tend to M >take a back seat until the more important problem is resolved.  The decreaseaJ >in civility didn't happen immediately, but when it became clear that suchJ >irresponsible and dangerous sentiments weren't going to be repudiated butI >instead strengthened the resulting polarization was probably inevitable.h > J >That polarization is continuing, and being fostered by the statement fromI >Dubya himself that "You're either with us, or your with the terrorists."IC >That's simplistic bullshit, and fully justifies (not that previouslI >statements hadn't already) the level of respect he's been accorded here.m >  >- bill    Bill,   @ To clarify: I was specifically writing about the 'sub-thread' on? referring to Bush as CEO of USA Inc.  That struck me (and stilloA strikes me) as pointlessly hostile and ill-mannered.  Much of thelD other parts of the thread I will easily grant is relevant to the WTC bombing.  B That I disagree with much of the WTC discussion you should take as< read.  And that I have no intention of participating in thatC discussion, as I find most of it to be a mechanism for all of us tot4 get through our grief, you should also take as read.    A Finally you yourself speak of people's grief and their desire forwF revenge.  An analogy, if someone is mugged and wants to take it out byC mugging everyone who looked like the original mugger, I don't think 9 anyone would argue that you should try to talk them down.I  F However, to walk up to the person whose close relative is in intensiveF care and say 'you know, I heard rumors that he's a thief' is not wise, not polite, and not germane.   Jim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:25:24 +0100h& From: ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk> Subject: Re: World Trade Center,- Message-ID: <3BAB0784.515DA682@aerosys.co.uk>o   Alan Greig wrote:t >    > B > After watching a tape of Monday night's Letterman and talking toE > American colleagues I am just beginning to understand how hard lastr@ > Tuesday's events  hit the American psyche. It is true I hadn'tH > factored the magnitude of the shock (difficult to find a suitable wordG > here and I know shock doesn't do it justice) into some of my replies.i > " > I will try to keep this in mind.   > -- > Alan  M It's been some years since I was last in the US, but downhome Amaerica really M was a nation with a psyche of white picket fences, sports and friendly peopleeN without hidden agenda or axe to grind. Much like the UK in fact, but with muchP more energy in terms of self belief and ability to get the job done. Would thinkO much of it outside the cities is still that way now, which is why it has hit soaL hard. Here in England, we have had 30 years of IRA terrorism, (some of whichO funded by misguided but sincere individuals in other countries) but the US has, N with few exceptions, never experienced domestic criminal terrorism of the kindP we saw last week. In a way, this is a very rude wakeup call for the US, sort of, welcome to the 21st century. s  P As the most powerfull nation on earth, America, we look to you for leadership byM example. A chance to take the moral high ground while you have the support of O most of the rest of the world. Tread carefully with those big boots. We alreadytP know how strong you are, you have no need to prove that. Let's see how smart you are as well.   Chrise   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 15:21:05 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>m Subject: Re: World Trade Center>H Message-ID: <y48zf8d6im.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  ( ChrisQ <lightwork@aerosys.co.uk> writes:  H > [...] but the US has, with few exceptions, never experienced domestic 3 > criminal terrorism of the kind we saw last week. i  H Quite agreed. And in that sense, I thought that last week's events could+ be perceived to be worse than Pearl Harbor.t  F On the other hand, I have yet to see another country where the fear ofF criminal violence (armed assault, mugging, etc.) is so pervasive as inG the USA. I found this much more unsettling and disturbing than any fearl  of terrorist acts could inspire.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 06:40:37 -0700+ From: Nigel.White@sssltd.co.uk (Nige White)  Subject: Re: World Trade Center = Message-ID: <39779b25.0109210540.30125f35@posting.google.com>    > David Beatty wrotes: >  > >>>[5 >     How about some examples to support your claims?c8 > As I have observed time and again, U.S. foreign policy: > is not perfect, but we've helped far more countries that9 > you imply.  Some places we have helped recently includeN7 > most of the Middle East (Desert Storm), financial aidg0 > to much of the Third World, and Kosovo/Bosnia. > <<<A   Calm down everyone!H  6 I forget which American president it was, but he said:  < "America has no permanent friends, only permanent interests"  < I certainly didn't get all heated when I learned about that.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:15:10 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: World Trade Center L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2109011015110001@user-2ivec36.dialup.mindspring.com>  H In article <y48zf8d6im.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,H Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:    H > On the other hand, I have yet to see another country where the fear ofH > criminal violence (armed assault, mugging, etc.) is so pervasive as inI > the USA. I found this much more unsettling and disturbing than any feare" > of terrorist acts could inspire.  + Jan, where are you getting this impression?1  G Having lived here, backwoods and big cities, all my life, I have to say J that "fear of criminal violence" is NOT particularly pervasive amoung mostI people.  Also, statistics clearly show that such crimes have been gettingeF less common for years.  There are bad neighborboods here, as I supposeD there are in every country, where crime is much higher than average.  J As an example, violent crimes in NYC have gone down in the last 8-10 yearsF by factors of 2, 5, or even more, depending on the category.  The ideaB that there are guns and shooting all over the place is just wrong.  G What IS pervasive in most areas is the media's habit of emphasizing baddG news, and particularly violent crime.  Their FAVORITE topic is anythingaJ bad that involves guns.  An armed robbery where a shopkeeper is injured orJ killed is always headline news, usually with emphasis on the evil gun.  AnH incident where an armed shopkeeper shoots the robber, or just scares himD away using a gun (which happens FAR more often according to reliableI statistics), is barely mentioned.  A crime avoided, or mitigated, is justaI not newsworthy to these folks, unless it has a particularly vivid aspect.t  C So, my message is, you should not always believe the picture of ourh2 culture that's painted by the major media outlets.   -- e Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comL   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:11 -0400b5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centeri1 Message-ID: <x7Iq7.458$YP.16744@news.cpqcorp.net>r  : Bill Todd wrote in message <9oducm$su4$1@pyrite.mv.net>... >rA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messages, >news:Yhpq7.424$YP.16346@news.cpqcorp.net...= >> Bill Todd wrote in message <9oak8b$ie8$1@pyrite.mv.net>...o >> >I >> >The first step in persuasion is making some attempt to understand and1 >reactG >> >to what the person you're trying to persuade is saying.  Should youo >decideBI >> >to do so and start debating issues rather than misconceptions, actualB >> >progress might well occur. >> > >> >> >> Ditto right back at ya. >a@ >Do we really have fourth-graders developing software in ZK now? >eG >Take the last, detailed post I responded to you with, and respond with.  >similar detail (and relevance). >-    L It is not worth the time to respond to you.  You are not looking for an openK discussion, just for everyone to agree with you.  You erect a position, andsF then defend it by any means.  If someone doesn't agree, you label themI idiots.  You (as far as I can tell) seldom if ever acknowledge a point ofiG view that doesn't agree with you - as possibly valid, let alone equallyc valid.  K Maybe I'm a slow learner, just always want to get the last word in, or just K as bad as you... I should have simply kill filed this thread.  In any case, L I'll let you have all the last words, as I will be killing all "World Trade"B threads after this, along with the "I hate Compaq" endless thread.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0200G From: Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>T Subject: Re: World Trade Center-H Message-ID: <y4bsk4d0wf.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  - > Jan, where are you getting this impression?C  G Among others, from having lived in Los Angeles for three months each inLI 1988 and 1989, and from some comments of a colleague of mine who has justr spent two months near Boston.   L > As an example, violent crimes in NYC have gone down in the last 8-10 yearsH > by factors of 2, 5, or even more, depending on the category.  The ideaD > that there are guns and shooting all over the place is just wrong.  K True, when we spent a week in NYC about three years ago as tourists, things  seemed fairly calm.   L You'll rarely find people telling you "avoid this part of town at all costs"I or "don't be found walking on the street after dark" hereabouts, while it-. seems pervasive on the other side of the pond.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:30:54 +0000V  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: Re: World Trade CenterT/ Message-ID: <00256ACE.005AB8CF.00@quegw01.btyp>X  L Contact:   Tel: 3063  -  IS - Infrastructure, 1st Floor, Bridge Street Plaza    I Come spend some time in the UK - I know there are plenty of places here I $ wouldn't advise walking on your own!   ;^D    Steve S         L Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@fsnif.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> on 09/21/2001 03:22:24 PM-    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ cc:         (bcc: Steve Spires/YellowPages)-M From:      Jan Vorbrueggen <jan@fsnif.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, 21h$            September 2001, 3:22 p.m.   Re: World Trade Center        4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  - > Jan, where are you getting this impression?t  G Among others, from having lived in Los Angeles for three months each innI 1988 and 1989, and from some comments of a colleague of mine who has justt spent two months near Boston.n  L > As an example, violent crimes in NYC have gone down in the last 8-10 yearsH > by factors of 2, 5, or even more, depending on the category.  The ideaD > that there are guns and shooting all over the place is just wrong.  K True, when we spent a week in NYC about three years ago as tourists, things  seemed fairly calm.-  L You'll rarely find people telling you "avoid this part of town at all costs"I or "don't be found walking on the street after dark" hereabouts, while itI. seems pervasive on the other side of the pond.        Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:22:04 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o Subject: Re: World Trade Centere8 Message-ID: <ummmqt0ct46j1qntflsql2v1bothu05689@4ax.com>  5 On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:11 -0400, "Fred Kleinsorge"-$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:    L >Maybe I'm a slow learner, just always want to get the last word in, or justL >as bad as you... I should have simply kill filed this thread.  In any case,M >I'll let you have all the last words, as I will be killing all "World Trade"aC >threads after this, along with the "I hate Compaq" endless thread.e  D You probably won't see this then but recall that the "I hate Compaq"D thread was started by a Compaq Alpha engineer now working for Intel.     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:26:23 +0200o5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>m Subject: Re: World Trade Centery+ Message-ID: <3BAB783F.38E8D4CE@TeraPort.de>d   Bob Koehler wrote: > e > In article <3BAA17F3.85558C07@TeraPort.de>, Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> writes:  > 
 > I wrote:  > >> American precedent:  ThomasJ > >>    Jefferson signed a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates. > >> > > H > >  I think here we tend to disagree. Unless you can find a nation or aC > > nation-leader who "ordered" the WTC attack, you are not at war.f > ; >    What nation do you think Barbary pirates qualifies as?   D  That is the problem. They are just that - criminals that need to beF prosecuted. But there is not coutry that they represent. So you cannot have a war.    Martin -- iB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309i7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111d5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.526 ************************