1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 23 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 529       Contents: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM Are there alpha 21264a 733mhz? Re: CETS2001 presentations Re: CETS2001 presentationsD Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security!! Re: Looking for help with a DTC01  Motif compilation problems Re: Motif compilation problems Re: Really Unhackable...????D Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: Which file to change!  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 13:07:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM 3 Message-ID: <xnuR01y1w4o8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <235cf5c3.0109220627.2d79b3b2@posting.google.com>, roli@barmettler.net (Roland Barmettler) writes:   , There is no such thing as a stupid question.  7 > I'm new to VMS, so perhaps this is a stupid question: 8 > Whenever I connect to my Linux Workstation over DECnet7 > (set host), and redirected some X11 programs onto the 3 > VMS screen, I can't open any additional DECterms.  > They all fail with: D > %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM, exceeded systemwide buffer object page limit
 > (MAXBOBMEM)   7 In circumstances like this you should type the command:   " 	HELP/MESSAGE %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM  I which will display text telling you the parameters to avoid this message.   = > It's a AlphaStation 250 4/266 96MB RAM running OpenVMS 7.2, 4 > TCPIP V5.0-9, DWMOTIF V1.2-5 and DECNET_OSI V7.2 .  C What your VMS 7.2 system will _not_ tell you, however, is that this ( issue has been eliminated in VMS 7.3 :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 05:22:05 GMT % From: "hlee5" <hlee5@columbus.rr.com> ' Subject: Are there alpha 21264a 733mhz? > Message-ID: <1ker7.59367$Iq4.32059475@typhoon.columbus.rr.com>   Hello,  J Are there alpha 21264A 733Mhz cpu? If exists, what kind mother board  this cpu fit to?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:03:17 -0400 . From: "warren sander" <sander@ma.ultranet.com># Subject: Re: CETS2001 presentations + Message-ID: <9oj8tt$q6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   K I didn't have time to 'htmlize' the cets presentations on friday. I will do 5 that next week so you can view them with any browser.    -warren  --B ------------------------------------------------------------------6 Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingK Compaq Computer Corporation          Work:  warren.sander@remove.compaq.com L 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@remove.ma.ultranet.com3 Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875 5    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myself ,          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/B ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Paul Sture" <paul@sture.ch> wrote in message % news:VA.00000456.003d6dc6@sture.ch... G > In article <IsOq7.482$YP.17089@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman wrote: D > > Seven of the OpenVMS Engineering CETS2001 presentations -- thoseJ > >   presentations that I have immediate access to -- should be available2 > >   on-line by 22-Sep-2001 (tomorrow; Saturday). > > I > >   This includes the four presentations that I used, and presentations I > >   by Clair Grant and by Gaitan D'antoni.  These presentations will be ! > >   available (by tomorrow) at:  > > 4 > >     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/presentations/ > > E > >   Mark Gorham's CETS2001 presentation is already available at the $ > >   website, and can be viewed at: > > ; > >     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/strategy.html  > > K > And I'll just note for those who don't have access to M$ Powerpoint, that  StarA > Office 5.2 (on Linux) copes with these presentations admirably.  > ___  > Paul Sture
 > Switzerland  >    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 20:49:57 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) # Subject: Re: CETS2001 presentations 3 Message-ID: <f8ndKU2nG9Xb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <9oj8tt$q6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "warren sander" <sander@ma.ultranet.com> writes:M > I didn't have time to 'htmlize' the cets presentations on friday. I will do 7 > that next week so you can view them with any browser.    Thanks.  Much appreciated.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:19:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> M Subject: Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security! , Message-ID: <3BACD626.33404B8A@videotron.ca>  L > In article <9oga81$l7r$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote:. > >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/safe.html    K Good to see folks starting to fight backa against the MS bloated virus that $ changes names every year. (Windows).  I However, I am surprised to see ".PDF" files listed in the files that page  recommends you do not open.   H It is my experience that the postscript code that has access to files isG executed by the Distiller during the .PS to .PDF translation but is not  carried into the output PDF.    N I am very curious on what features of PDF are considered dangerous ? I realiseL that PDF has forms capabilities, but again, those shouldn't really mess with your local file system.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 11:57:02 -0700 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) * Subject: Re: Looking for help with a DTC01$ Message-ID: <9oimtu$hmb$1@spies.com>  U From article <3BACD696.583067D9@osfn.org>, by "Michael L. Umbricht" <mikeu@osfn.org>:  > "Michael L. Umbricht" wrote: >>  H >> When I turn the DTC01 on, a series of "touch tones" plays through theI >> speaker, and the LED pattern is 11010010  No message on the comm port,  >> and no response kbd input.  > I > Some additional info - when a terminal is attached to the comm port the $ > LED pattern is different: 11010110 >  > -mikeu  J A web search revealed that there are text versions of the DTC01 manuals atA http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/FREEWARE50/DECTALK/MANUAL/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:43:36 +0200 ( From: Matthias Koch <koch@weblab-edv.de># Subject: Motif compilation problems - Message-ID: <3BACF7F8.2DAE68F5@weblab-edv.de>    Hi!   F I tried to compile and run some of the Motif examples in SYS$EXAMPLES.  3 The instructions in HELLOMOTIF.FOR for example say:    C        To compile and link:  C , C         $ FORTRAN DECW$EXAMPLES:HELLOMOTIF. C         $ LINK HELLOMOTIF,SYS$INPUT:/OPTIONS, C           SYS$LIBRARY:DECW$DXMLIBSHR/SHARE C B C        To run, HELLOMOTIF.UID must be in your default directory. C        To create it: C . C         $ UIL/MOTIF DECW$EXAMPLES:HELLOMOTIF C  C        Then: C  C         $ RUN HELLOMOTIF    B Compiling and linking was fine, but something with UIL seems to be- wrong. When I tried to start the .EXE, I got:    $ run hellomotifD X Toolkit Warning: Idb__HDR_GetHeader: File version URM 1.2 does not match Mrm v  ersion URM 1.1 - MrmNOT_VALID D X Toolkit Warning: I18NOpenFile: Couldn't open file HELLOMOTIF.UID - MrmNOT_FOUN  D + Can't open hierarchy, status =            2  FORTRAN STOP    D What does that version error mean? Unfortonately there is no help on+ UIL/MOTIF. Do I need additional qualifiers?   7 BTW: It's an unmodified installation of OpenVMS/VAX 7.2      Thanks,  Matthias   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 05:30:07 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)' Subject: Re: Motif compilation problems ; Message-ID: <3bad573f.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   ) Matthias Koch (koch@weblab-edv.de) wrote: H > I tried to compile and run some of the Motif examples in SYS$EXAMPLES. > 5 > The instructions in HELLOMOTIF.FOR for example say:  >  > C        To compile and link:  > C . > C         $ FORTRAN DECW$EXAMPLES:HELLOMOTIF0 > C         $ LINK HELLOMOTIF,SYS$INPUT:/OPTIONS. > C           SYS$LIBRARY:DECW$DXMLIBSHR/SHARE > C D > C        To run, HELLOMOTIF.UID must be in your default directory. > C        To create it: > C 0 > C         $ UIL/MOTIF DECW$EXAMPLES:HELLOMOTIF > C  > C        Then: > C  > C         $ RUN HELLOMOTIF > D > Compiling and linking was fine, but something with UIL seems to be/ > wrong. When I tried to start the .EXE, I got:  >  > $ run hellomotifF > X Toolkit Warning: Idb__HDR_GetHeader: File version URM 1.2 does not* > match Mrm version URM 1.1 - MrmNOT_VALID  4 Link against SYS$SHARE:DECW$DXMLIBSHR12.EXE instead.  F > X Toolkit Warning: I18NOpenFile: Couldn't open file HELLOMOTIF.UID - > MrmNOT_FOUND  A The UID files must reside in one of the directories pointed to by D DECW$SYSTEM_DEFAULTS or DECW$USER_DEFAULTS. I'm not sure whether the# current directory also is searched.    cu,    Martin --  J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 13:01:02 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: Really Unhackable...???? 3 Message-ID: <+efzkfh$yxoW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <7s1r7.72$nz6.116317@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net>, Art Rice <arice@myhouse.org> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > E >> In article <yuXq7.1463$T%.693905@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, Art Rice  >> <arice@myhouse.org> writes: >>> Jack Patteeuw wrote: >>  L >>>> The most common VMS hack is a "wet hack" (convincing a human to give up >>>> a password orI >>>> using a simple password for important accounts).  Read the book "The  >>>> Kukoo's (sp?)* >>>> Egg" about the "early days"  hacking. >>>>   >>>> Jack Patteeuw >>>>  M >>> Ahhhh, The old 'default' passwords?  What surprises me is how many people / >>> reset the passwords 'back' to the defaults.  >>  9 >> No, not default passwords -- he said simple passwords.  >>  ? >> VMS has not had any default passwords for the past 15 years.  >>  D >> Of course anyone who sets a password back to what it was 15 years >> ago is looking for trouble. >>  N > Well, back when that book was written there were quite a few VAX that still L > had the default SYSTEM, FIELD, and USER  passwords set.  And the title is ( > "The Cuckoo's Egg" first printed 1989.  H I have no complaint with the book -- just with repeating the story aboutC "default passwords" on VMS 12 years later as if it were still true.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 11:13:36 -0700/ From: racist_religions@yahoo.com (Fight Racism) M Subject: Re: The most hated country in the world ( was Re: Bomb The Mosques ) = Message-ID: <bfae4fac.0109221013.4c419807@posting.google.com>    Racists Religions    D 1.Church is "two bodies, one Black, one white- separate and divided.    2.Sudras (Untouchables Hindus)   F Hindu Church is "two bodies, one Brahmin Hindu , one Untouchable Hindu separate and divided.    , The holocaust was sponsored by "Christians".1 American slavery was "justified" by "Christians".    
 Please visit: - Sudras (Untouchables Hindus) Holocaust Museum # http://www.dalitstan.org/holocaust/     Fight White Power  Fight Brahmin Hindu Power  Fight Imperialism     Fight Racism   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 13:10:14 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) # Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance 3 Message-ID: <VFtN1pHoEqfN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <tqpigq36b3cn57@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:M > Strangely enough - We have had 3 calls from Compaq already (different parts I > of the organisation) looking for 7800 parts and systems - as have other / > vendors with whom we deal on a regular basis. J > Seems Compaq (unlike the Digital we all knew and loved) have carried the' > JUST IN TIME concept to WAY TOO LATE.  > L > The fact that people had these big beasts under maintenance suggests to meM > that Compaq ought to have had a few "Hot-Spares" ready to be either trucked ' > or flown in within a few hours notice   < Perhaps they lost more than they expected in one fell swoop.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:16:09 -0400 0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com># Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance / Message-ID: <tqpvea5esuei94@news.supernews.com>    Maybe   F Perhaps decentralizing IT departments; say develop an IT department inH somewhere unheard of like here in Savannah GA - good cheap power,  largeF population of graduates, southern salaries (around 60% of the National  Average) and a few good schools.E We are in a hurricane evacuation area but only within 30 miles of the  coast - G Cable + Wireless have a major installation in Jax FL that services this & area - wireless T1 speeds no problem -> I would have thought this would actually be the perfect place.  < My thoughts - not those of the Savannah Chamber of Commerce.   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts  http://www.islandco.com  sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.  2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0096  ICQ#: 130698221 8 Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:VFtN1pHoEqfN@eisner.encompasserve.org... D > In article <tqpigq36b3cn57@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes: I > > Strangely enough - We have had 3 calls from Compaq already (different  parts K > > of the organisation) looking for 7800 parts and systems - as have other 1 > > vendors with whom we deal on a regular basis. L > > Seems Compaq (unlike the Digital we all knew and loved) have carried the) > > JUST IN TIME concept to WAY TOO LATE.  > > K > > The fact that people had these big beasts under maintenance suggests to  meG > > that Compaq ought to have had a few "Hot-Spares" ready to be either  trucked ) > > or flown in within a few hours notice  > > > Perhaps they lost more than they expected in one fell swoop.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:05:54 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com># Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance . Message-ID: <3BACD302.16274.E7CF77D@localhost>  H > Perhaps decentralizing IT departments; say develop an IT department inJ > somewhere unheard of like here in Savannah GA - good cheap power,  largeH > population of graduates, southern salaries (around 60% of the National" > Average) and a few good schools.  D Maybe Columbus Ohio isn't as cheap, but it seems perfect to me.  We D have a large concentration of high-tech companies:  Battelle, OCLC, B CheckFree, plus good universities like Ohio State.  And there are  several VMS shops, too.   ? Why anyone would want to locate a data center in the middle of  E Manhattan is beyond me.  I've heard tales that some data centers run  F VMS and are clustered to backup sites in New Jersey, which makes more  sense.  D But with communications so cheap now, why have the computers in the F city, anyway?  When you look at the price per square foot (maybe it's D per square millimeter in big cities to reduce sticker shock), being ' in the countryside makes perfect sense.   F My "data center" is a very low-profile target, I have DSL, and I only . walk down one flight of stairs to get to work.     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 18:24:17 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) # Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance 3 Message-ID: <Fb4kRH8yN6QO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3BACD302.16274.E7CF77D@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes: I >> Perhaps decentralizing IT departments; say develop an IT department in K >> somewhere unheard of like here in Savannah GA - good cheap power,  large I >> population of graduates, southern salaries (around 60% of the National # >> Average) and a few good schools.2 > F > Maybe Columbus Ohio isn't as cheap, but it seems perfect to me.  We F > have a large concentration of high-tech companies:  Battelle, OCLC, D > CheckFree, plus good universities like Ohio State.  And there are  > several VMS shops, too.  > A > Why anyone would want to locate a data center in the middle of  G > Manhattan is beyond me.  I've heard tales that some data centers run eH > VMS and are clustered to backup sites in New Jersey, which makes more  > sense.  F But when half of your disaster-tolerant cluster goes away permanently,F you need more machines to regain your disaster-tolerant cluster.  ThisD is true even if your processing continues uninterrupted, and even if the cause was a hurricane.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:52:38 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com># Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance@. Message-ID: <3BAD0826.15420.F4C9333@localhost>  0 On 22 Sep 2001, at 18:24, Larry Kilgallen wrote:H > But when half of your disaster-tolerant cluster goes away permanently,H > you need more machines to regain your disaster-tolerant cluster.  ThisF > is true even if your processing continues uninterrupted, and even if > the cause was a hurricane.  F Agreed.  You have some incentive to have at least one "extra" machine 
 at each site.h  @ It seems weird, but you could still do this with Alpha, even if B you've never migrated to Alpha.  Alphas can share SCSI disks with E VAX, providing an extra data path to critical shared files.  You can y, even boot VAX cluster members from an Alpha.  F You can also cluster with Charon-VAX systems running on cheap PC's.   0 I've tested that, and it does work quite nicely.  ; You might depend on your hardware vendor to come up with a ,C replacement machine.  Now (and at regular intervals in the future) -B would be a good time to make sure your hardware vendor *has* some & machines sitting on a shelf somewhere.    A The real issue is:  Do you want to invest money to prepare for a 7	 disaster?o  C Most companies don't put their money where their mouth is.  That's sE something for their shareholders to ask at the next annual meeting...-     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671u1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147j= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:45:13 -0400w- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-# Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance-, Message-ID: <3BAD76D6.19318935@videotron.ca>   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote:A > It seems weird, but you could still do this with Alpha, even ife! > you've never migrated to Alpha.1    K If a mission critical system is still on VAX, it is so for a reason. And an 7 overnight migration to Alpha is probably not feasable.    = I can see 2 reasons for a mission critical site still on VAX:.- 	-migration to Alpha not technically feasable-I 	-plan to eventually migrate away from VMS so no effort to port to Alpha.e  K In the second case, such a diasster might prompt a quicker port to some newcA platform unless rebuilding their cluster with vaxes is very easy.g  # >  Alphas can share SCSI disks with F > VAX, providing an extra data path to critical shared files.  You can. > even boot VAX cluster members from an Alpha.    M But if your applications have not been certified or tested on Alpha, or if an L Alpha-VAX config has not been certified this may be a show stopper. RememberF that a mission critical system with diasster tolerance is likely to beL processing really important stuff, so chancing it with a new untested config may not happen.h  E > You can also cluster with Charon-VAX systems running on cheap PC's.s2 > I've tested that, and it does work quite nicely.  G Would you be happy if your bank ran its funds transfers program on a PC  emulator of VMS ?x  < > You might depend on your hardware vendor to come up with aD > replacement machine.  Now (and at regular intervals in the future)C > would be a good time to make sure your hardware vendor *has* some ( > machines sitting on a shelf somewhere.  D Exactly. WTC seems to be a wakeup call for this activity. It will beM interesting to see if Compaq gets many inquiries about that and if Compaq (or 8 HP) might change its policy with regards to VAX support.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2001 20:00:57 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)-" Subject: Re: Which file to change!< Message-ID: <55f85d77.0109221900.7a79ea1@posting.google.com>  n "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<pFpq7.425$YP.16396@news.cpqcorp.net>...I > the window manager can (and often does) change it before it gets to thel	 > server.  >   > Yes, and this has been somewhat of an annoyance to me. I noted= that with CDE "The new desktop for OpenVMS" (someone _has_ too? change that login message, it's getting a bit dated now :-) the,= windows are placed exactly as DTWM sees fit. This was not theg> mode of operation of the previous DECWindows and is unpleasant@ when you wish to create multiple tiled DECterms automatically in your sessionetc.com on login.a  A This behaviour does not only render the DECTerm /window=(x/y_pos)i> controls useless, but of course effects everything at the XLIB level...  = win = XCreateSimpleWindow(dpy, XDefaultRootWindow(dpy), winx,i winy, winw, winh, 0, 0, fg);  @ The lack of any obvious controls in the Style Manager along with) the lack of even a commented out entry in:A SYS$COMMON:[CDE$DEFAULTS.SYSTEM.APP-DEFAULTS.C]DTWM.DAT make this. especially unpleasant.  @ I ended up with Dtwm*clientAutoPlace: False as an educated guess< from SYS$COMMON:[DECW$DEFAULTS.SYSTEM]DECW$MWM.DAT where the: similar entry at least appears in the file with a comment.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:16:05 GMTa/ From: "Randall Burlew" <rkburlew@earthlink.net>  Subject: Re: World Trade CenterdD Message-ID: <pJar7.8735$Hx1.813886@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9ohgdh$9o1$1@pyrite.mv.net... >wB > > Just some reality.  Events like Tuesday are 100% unacceptable, > > regardless of the reason.  >,H > You may have come to this party a bit late:  that point has never been+ > questioned in any manner, by anyone here.D  ? That is what you keep saying, but you talk out of both sides ofaB your mouth. I agree with a lot of what you say, but you have still@ managed to insult or offend me a number of times in this thread.? I would hate to think what it would be like if I disagreed with  most of what you wrote.N  : You have no problem separating the Iraqi populace from the9 authorities and quite rightly say that the people are noti> responsible for their government's action but you (and others)6 are unwilling or unable to grant us the same courtesy.  $ One example out of many, from below:G > (and more so on a personal level, given our responsiblity for our owns > country's actions)  G If I am responsible for my country's actions, then cannot everyone elseRF be held accountable for their country's actions? That statement is oneA of many that you have made that grants some sort of justificationFF to the terrorists acts, whether you like to admit it our not. The mostA you can say is that we have a responsibility to try to change our B country's actions that we deem wrong. Anything beyond that and youA open the door to make everyone fair game, especially since almost B every country has some sort of blood on their hands. We might just. as well kill everyone off and be done with it.  E Another one is when you said that if the government did something you.D didn't like (I cannot remember the exact something), it would almostF be enough to drive you to consider domestic terrorism. If that doesn'tF give implicit justification to the terrorists, I don't know what does.  J > > While things are never even, or fair, those poor powerless people have8 > > the same chance as the rest of the world to prosper. >OI > The economic and social seas in which we all swim vary greatly from one L > place to another - and if you happen to be born in a nutrient-poor part ofK > those seas, it's far harder to 'prosper' than if you happen to be born inTC > the U.S. or many other developed countries with at least somewhat  > enlightened governments. >L >   That they don't is9 > > not the fault of the USA.  Not in any meaningful way.t > G > Sometimes not, sometimes so.  If our government supports a repressive  regimeE > in their country, incontrovertibly so.  If our businesses support aHL > repressive regime in their country, certainly so at least 'in a meaningfulE > way'.  If our government or businesses significantly and negatively D > interfere in the internal workings of their country, even under an	 otherwiseuH > decent regime, we're also at some fault.  And if our government and/orB > businesses support some other country that affects their country
 negatively+ > in such ways, we're not blameless either.s  A Again, like so many times in this thread, you are taking what thed: government does and and casting blame on the citizens. WhyE cannot the same thinking be used to justify an assault on Afganistan?2- I'm sure you don't want to go down that road.   J > Turning your back on responsibility doesn't make it go away - but it canL > easily make those you're injuring feel even angrier while at the same timeE > feeling less able to do anything about it by non-violent means.  IteJ > certainly appears to be what drives at least *some* individuals over the7 > edge into terrorism, and others into supporting them.u  ? Is what our government does ever a reason for terrorism againstiD our citizens? This is just plain, unreasoning bigotry you are trying* to justify, and bigotry leading to murder.   >   Remember, all(H > > those who think talking is better, (which it is), that you have thatL > > capability because of the blood and lives of countless people throughoutG > > the history (sometimes good, sometimes not so good) of our country.NA > > Nobody handed us any freedoms, our ancestors fought for them.S >sJ > Some people are in a far better position to fight for their freedom thanK > others.  During the American Revolution, we had a large, relatively free, H > and moderately affluent population, with access to inexhaustible localI > resources and a fair amount of existing armaments, spread across one ofs theAH > larger colonies in the world, available to fight an enemy which had toI > travel 3,000 miles across an ocean just to engage us.  By contrast, thewG > Iraqi people, to pick a current example, are faced with an indigenous- tyrantH > backed by a local army that's one of the larger standing armies in theI > world, ready and willing to use mass weapons such as poison gas againstR itsmH > own population, and lack both weapons to fight with and the ability to" > organize without being detected.  E By your own statement below the Iraqis are responsible for what their.J country does. I don't believe that, but it shows how muddled your thinkingG is. Do you seriously believe I have any more of a chance to change whata= the US does than any Iraqi does in changing their government?b  G > Sitting back and proclaiming that such people have only themselves tot blame I > for not changing their predicament really isn't appropriate, especiallyiL > given that  a) we provided a great deal of the backing for Iraq's militaryG > establishment not all that long ago and  b) we failed to eliminate it  during1 > the Gulf war when we had a good opportunity to.e  H I didn't do either. Blaming me and other US civilians doesn't wash. LikeK I said earlier, if individual citizens can be held accountable or blamed in E any way for their governments actions, then you have went a long ways F toward justifying any terrorism. The same sort of thinking can also be@ used to justify any sort of military action you care to imagine.   Randyq  L > Some people seem to think that kind of genocide is justifiable.  Others ofJ > us believe it's not only as morally unacceptable as the terrorism itselfG > (and more so on a personal level, given our responsiblity for our ownSL > country's actions) but also far less efficient and effective than the manyL > things we can do to eliminate the conditions that cause many to become, or) > support, terrorists in the first place.1   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:58:14 -0400:' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>  Subject: Re: World Trade Centerm( Message-ID: <9ojmhp$pa2$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Randall Burlew" <rkburlew@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:pJar7.8735$Hx1.813886@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9ohgdh$9o1$1@pyrite.mv.net... > >.D > > > Just some reality.  Events like Tuesday are 100% unacceptable, > > > regardless of the reason.v > >aJ > > You may have come to this party a bit late:  that point has never been- > > questioned in any manner, by anyone here.u >yA > That is what you keep saying, but you talk out of both sides ofh
 > your mouth.c  G Without going back over every word I've said, I can't swear that you'recH wrong - but you'd make things much easier if you came up with an example6 (you haven't below, and *those* points I can address).  7  I agree with a lot of what you say, but you have stillpB > managed to insult or offend me a number of times in this thread.A > I would hate to think what it would be like if I disagreed witht > most of what you wrote.m  J I find it more than offensive that some people seem to believe we have theI right to act without regard for many of the precepts we normally claim tomJ hold sacred simply because we're mad as hell and therefore somehow removedJ from such constraints.  When the subject at hand is the casual destructionD of innocent people in large numbers, I feel little compunction about5 letting, and some obligation to let, that anger show.   L But I don't believe I've done so indiscriminately.  If you feel otherwise, IH suspect it's because you've seen what I've said through the veil of yourE emotional reaction.  And since I'm the one who has been promoting the-4 virtues of discussion, I'll try to help sort it out.   >a< > You have no problem separating the Iraqi populace from the; > authorities and quite rightly say that the people are not @ > responsible for their government's action but you (and others)8 > are unwilling or unable to grant us the same courtesy.  J Of course I'm not:  we *are* responsible for our government's actions to a *far* greater degree.v  H We have the right to criticize it openly, and assemble for such purpose.  J We elect our leaders, who are thus at least periodically accountable to us1 and at least somewhat responsive because of that.e  K We have the capacity to stop this country's internal economy in its tracks,dL using entirely legal mechanisms that would not permit any legal retribution,D in a matter of hours should we unite as a group to do so (with a fewL exceptions legally protected from work stoppage that would not alone suffice to keep things running).   >m& > One example out of many, from below:I > > (and more so on a personal level, given our responsiblity for our owng > > country's actions) >hI > If I am responsible for my country's actions, then cannot everyone elsei2 > be held accountable for their country's actions?  I No:  the situation is completely different in the U.S. than in, say, Iraqt@ (see above for a few examples).  Many people, including me, takeG considerable pride in this.  But the reasons that give us pride give uss responsibility as well.h    That statement is oneC > of many that you have made that grants some sort of justificationm? > to the terrorists acts, whether you like to admit it our not.s  C If that statement *seems to you* to grant some justification to the G terrorist acts, that simply indicates that you have failed to grasp thesB difference between simple causation (a concept devoid of any value judgement) and 'justification'.m  	  The mostdC > you can say is that we have a responsibility to try to change ouro' > country's actions that we deem wrong.   J That's a somewhat subtle distinction, but I do agree with it.  However, if> you wish to make that distinction, it implies that we have theJ responsibility to evaluate our country's actions for merit or lack thereof and react appropriately.  @ I don't believe most people do that (especially when it comes toG international affairs which *appear* not to affect them at all), and intH failing to do so such people become responsible for the *continuance* ofK actions our country takes throughout the world.  The kinds of examples I've H given of activities we, as individuals, share responsibility for are notC random acts we haven't had time to react to (had we been paying any D attention at all):  they've been going on for many years or decades.  E That description applies to me as much as many:  I may feel generally,K uncomfortable with my limited awareness of what goes on in the world, but IjJ seldom take the time to learn more about it and actually do more than voteJ for people I believe may help change it.  Right-wingers call that 'liberalK guilt' and disavow any such responsibility at all, while continuing to feelnI free for our country to throw its weight around in whatever manner it mayp
 feel like.  J There's another subtle aspect to our responsibility:  at least some of theE oppression directly or indirectly supported by our government and ouriJ businesses contributes to our own affluence.  So turning a blind eye to itI has an uncomfortable element of self-interest as well as simple laziness.i    Anything beyond that and youaC > open the door to make everyone fair game, especially since almosthD > every country has some sort of blood on their hands. We might just0 > as well kill everyone off and be done with it.  H While that seems in some degree to be the direction we're now headed in, that's not what I've advocated.u  G Being responsible for something in no way *justifies* arbitrarily harshwL retribution:  punishment appropriate to the crime is the basis of our systemJ of law, which also makes fine distinctions between accidents, contributory8 negligence, *reckless* negligence, and willful misdeeds.  I Most of the things I feel the American public can be held responsible for-G fall into the first two categories, where responsibility may be as much3G moral as legal (e.g., even when an accident occurs that injures others,3K those involved really should try to understand any steps they could take to- avoid another occurrence).   > G > Another one is when you said that if the government did something youoF > didn't like (I cannot remember the exact something), it would almostH > be enough to drive you to consider domestic terrorism. If that doesn'tH > give implicit justification to the terrorists, I don't know what does.  K A point that may be appropriate to make at this point is that there's a bitAI of terrorist in *anyone* who believes that some goals must be attained ateJ whatever cost.  That includes people who believe that large-scale militaryJ action is appropriate where no concentrated military threat exists, peopleJ who would consider slaughtering the families of terrorists as a deterrent,D and people like me who believe that there are some (I hope extremelyD unlikely) actions that my country *could* take that would have to be- actively resisted as strenuously as possible.   F The hypothetical action I "didn't like" was large-scale use of nuclearJ weapons to wipe out entire populations in multiple countries.  I respondedC that this would justify whatever actions were necessary to stop it.pH Unfortunately, the physical means we use to carry out such actions oftenH aren't accessible, so what must be destroyed is the *will* to continue -K which is precisely the situation terrorists face (a perceived absolute needs0 to respond without the means to do so directly).  J Would I actually start trying to wipe out large numbers of people here whoK had no direct involvement if that appeared to be absolutely the only way torI stop such indiscriminate slaughter abroad?  I don't know:  that's playinguJ God to a degree that makes me doubt my ability to choose correctly, thoughE it doesn't seem to slow down others much when it comes to 'collateralcJ damage' in some remote country.  I do know that I truly wish that whateverG such damage was inflicted on other uninvolved parties would be divinely H inflicted, individual for individual, on U.S. citizens as well - since IE believe that would lead to a considerable (and appropriate) change inU approach on our part.u   >:L > > > While things are never even, or fair, those poor powerless people have: > > > the same chance as the rest of the world to prosper. > >tK > > The economic and social seas in which we all swim vary greatly from onegK > > place to another - and if you happen to be born in a nutrient-poor parte ofJ > > those seas, it's far harder to 'prosper' than if you happen to be born inE > > the U.S. or many other developed countries with at least somewhat' > > enlightened governments. > >  > >   That they don't is; > > > not the fault of the USA.  Not in any meaningful way.e > >iI > > Sometimes not, sometimes so.  If our government supports a repressiveC > regimeG > > in their country, incontrovertibly so.  If our businesses support anC > > repressive regime in their country, certainly so at least 'in au
 meaningfulG > > way'.  If our government or businesses significantly and negativelylF > > interfere in the internal workings of their country, even under an > otherwisetJ > > decent regime, we're also at some fault.  And if our government and/orD > > businesses support some other country that affects their country > negatively- > > in such ways, we're not blameless either.P >eC > Again, like so many times in this thread, you are taking what theE< > government does and and casting blame on the citizens. WhyG > cannot the same thinking be used to justify an assault on Afganistan?   I Again, the Afghan population didn't elect their leaders and have far less:F direct and indirect control over them - even if they had much detailedK understanding of what they were doing, which given the almost complete lack - of infrastructure in the country is unlikely.t  / > I'm sure you don't want to go down that road.p  L I'll gladly go down that road:  I don't think you understand where it leads.  H As far as 'justifying an assault on Afghanistan', there is a qualitativeG difference between intra-national and inter-national behavior - largelyaK because we haven't yet figured out how to apply one set of standards to the J entire world, and thus as a practical matter allow nations a great deal of@ internal autonomy because there's no obvious better alternative.  I There are exceptions, such as the actions in Kosovo.  But such exceptionstL are approached warily (IIRC it took something like 8 months before an actualJ military response to that situation occurred) and require a high degree of. *international* accord before action is taken.  D The Taliban government may well have a lot to answer for internally,K possibly to the point that some similar action should be taken there - if aoE similar level of international accord can be reached, rather than the L decidedly nervous expressions of support we've bullied people into giving onK short notice in the current situation (I referred elsewhere to a 31-countryrK Gallup poll that found people in *most* of them thought international legal < rather than military action was appropriate in this matter).  I But the Taliban have virtually no effect on the rest of the world:  their H 'external' offense in our eyes is refusing to expel bin Laden (a man andK organization that helped them both during the resistance against the SovietaH occupation and later in the Taliban's ascent to power), which is passiveH rather than active and does not in itself justify a full-scale invasion.  D If the Taliban refused to hand him over after being offered credibleJ evidence of his guilt, I suspect we could garner plenty of support for theL use of the *minimum* - i.e., 'surgical' - military force required to extractK bin Laden - and I'd agree that it was justified if such broad internationalg support existed.   >cL > > Turning your back on responsibility doesn't make it go away - but it canI > > easily make those you're injuring feel even angrier while at the sameh timeG > > feeling less able to do anything about it by non-violent means.  It L > > certainly appears to be what drives at least *some* individuals over the9 > > edge into terrorism, and others into supporting them.  >oA > Is what our government does ever a reason for terrorism againstnF > our citizens? This is just plain, unreasoning bigotry you are trying, > to justify, and bigotry leading to murder.  D Again, you're confused between causation and justification.  What isH *justified* is a great deal of anger, not a randomly homicidal response.  J Unfortunately, when you get a large number of people extremely angry, someK of them won't be very picky about how they respond (e.g., there's a growingtH number of reprisals - several hundred reported as of yesterday - against@ people who just *looked like* Arabs in this country that have noA 'justification' whatsoever - but the news media call this 'almost ) unavoidable' because of human nature...).f   >t > >   Remember, allnJ > > > those who think talking is better, (which it is), that you have thatC > > > capability because of the blood and lives of countless people 
 throughoutI > > > the history (sometimes good, sometimes not so good) of our country.yC > > > Nobody handed us any freedoms, our ancestors fought for them.a > >oL > > Some people are in a far better position to fight for their freedom thanG > > others.  During the American Revolution, we had a large, relatively  free,iJ > > and moderately affluent population, with access to inexhaustible localK > > resources and a fair amount of existing armaments, spread across one ofn > thetJ > > larger colonies in the world, available to fight an enemy which had toK > > travel 3,000 miles across an ocean just to engage us.  By contrast, themI > > Iraqi people, to pick a current example, are faced with an indigenousr > tyrantJ > > backed by a local army that's one of the larger standing armies in theK > > world, ready and willing to use mass weapons such as poison gas againsta > itslJ > > own population, and lack both weapons to fight with and the ability to$ > > organize without being detected. >nG > By your own statement below the Iraqis are responsible for what theirnL > country does. I don't believe that, but it shows how muddled your thinking > is.o  J You'll have to expand on your reasoning here:  from the words you've used,+ I'd say it's you whose thinking is muddled.t  D  Do you seriously believe I have any more of a chance to change what? > the US does than any Iraqi does in changing their government?   F 100%.  If you think you don't, it seems there's a great deal about our" country that you don't appreciate.   >iI > > Sitting back and proclaiming that such people have only themselves tow > blame.K > > for not changing their predicament really isn't appropriate, especially E > > given that  a) we provided a great deal of the backing for Iraq'sa militaryI > > establishment not all that long ago and  b) we failed to eliminate itd > during3 > > the Gulf war when we had a good opportunity to.  >o > I didn't do either.e  : I was responding specifically to an implication of Dave's.  0  Blaming me and other US civilians doesn't wash.  H You've a right to your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct.  WhileA there's nothing like a degree of 'blame' that would *justify* thee< WTC/Pentagon attack, there is non-negligible responsibility.    Like J > I said earlier, if individual citizens can be held accountable or blamed inG > any way for their governments actions, then you have went a long ways " > toward justifying any terrorism.  @ Incorrect.  But it does help *explain some causes* of terrorism.  &  The same sort of thinking can also beB > used to justify any sort of military action you care to imagine.  J No, it cannot.  It can't even 'explain' it, save as an act of revenge by a' government, rather than by individuals.l  D The kind of thinking that *to some degree* drives terrorists is thatF insupportable grievances exist with no way to address them.  These areE people with no formal power - economic, military, religious (at leastrL outside portions of their own religion) - who must either respond not at allH or via opportunistic, violent, indirect means.  The use of such means isC never justifiable, but as their last resort it *is* understandable.>  F By contrast, we have almost unlimited response options.  We have greatH influence in the international community and can bring huge economic andI political pressures to bear.  We have the military capability to act with.K precision rather than overwhelming brute force.  And we can actually choose F to *change* the conditions that help breed terrorists as well as bring existing terrorists to justice.e  K In fact, we have sufficient power that indiscriminate use of it constitutes ? a far greater threat to the world than all the terrorism in it.h   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.529 ************************