1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 24 Sep 2001	Volume 2001 : Issue 531       Contents: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM/ Re: any configuration files need to be changed! * cancel <3BAE26E9.3221D2F0@cableinet.co.uk> Re: CETS2001 presentations Re: CETS2001 presentations Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?  Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?  Re: ftp login failure 2 Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?D Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security!D Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security! Re: VAX 7000 Installed Base  Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX disaster tolerance Re: VAX DOCUMENT Re: Which file to change!  Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade Center Re: World Trade CenterC Re: [OpenVMS] V7.2 VAX satellite doesn't find V7.3 Alpha bootserver C Re: [OpenVMS] V7.2 VAX satellite doesn't find V7.3 Alpha bootserver   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2001 12:23:56 -0700- From: roli@barmettler.net (Roland Barmettler) ! Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM = Message-ID: <235cf5c3.0109231123.3e9d5c68@posting.google.com>    Hi  9 > In circumstances like this you should type the command: $ > 	HELP/MESSAGE %SYSTEM-F-EXBUFOBJLM   Well, I then get: > %MSGHLP-F-NOTFOUND, message not found in Help Message database  < But it doesen't matter. I got a hint from someone how to fix- this problem (apart from updating to 7.3) :-)    Thanks for the help!  
 Greetings, Roland   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:10:37 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> 8 Subject: Re: any configuration files need to be changed!. Message-ID: <3BAE2566.59F5ED9@cableinet.co.uk>   Brian Tillman wrote: > 4 > >I am facing a problem with the following command. > > * > >  create/term/detach/wind=(x=100,y=100) > > K > >I have tested this scenario on couple of VMS machines.  On one of them I G > >have been able to position the decterm at the specified coordinates. 	 > Whereas M > >on  another machine I am not able to position the decterm at the specified  > >coordinate.D > >(Note I am using a X windows emulator to connect to VMS machine.) >  > We had to add  >  > Mwm*clientAutoPlace: False > K > to DECW$SYSTEM_DEFAULTS:DECW$MWM.DAT to address this at one point, but if H > you're using a window manager on your PC, then I doubt this will help.   @ it may depend whether you have your emulator set to use a single	 "Windows" H window for the whole X session (which I prefer) or to let Windows createG a new window for each X-window. In the former case, it is my experience  thatG MWM is indeed needed in addition to the Windows X emulator. If for some  reasonF MWM doesn't start then the X-windows don't have the Motif like borders	 and it is % impossible to switch between windows.    regards  --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:43:54 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> 3 Subject: cancel <3BAE26E9.3221D2F0@cableinet.co.uk> 9 Message-ID: <K3qr7.19098$cZ6.1786451@news1.cableinet.net>   / This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:48:26 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> # Subject: Re: CETS2001 presentations ' Message-ID: <3BAEAD0A.F52209A2@fsi.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ^ > In article <9oj8tt$q6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "warren sander" <sander@ma.ultranet.com> writes:O > > I didn't have time to 'htmlize' the cets presentations on friday. I will do 9 > > that next week so you can view them with any browser.  >  > Thanks.  Much appreciated.  F Second Larry's motion, but still have an issue with the attendees-only' thing. Not nice. Really sucks, in fact.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:50:08 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")# Subject: Re: CETS2001 presentations 8 Message-ID: <00A027F9.CB1B3955@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <3BAEAD0A.F52209A2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >>  _ >> In article <9oj8tt$q6p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "warren sander" <sander@ma.ultranet.com> writes: P >> > I didn't have time to 'htmlize' the cets presentations on friday. I will do: >> > that next week so you can view them with any browser. >>   >> Thanks.  Much appreciated.  > G >Second Larry's motion, but still have an issue with the attendees-only ( >thing. Not nice. Really sucks, in fact.  N Could you possibly phrase that as "Thanks, Warren, for undertaking to make theI presentations viewable with any browser, and thanks, VMS Engineering, for I putting up your presentations where people who didn't attend CETS can see B them?  I wish all the CETS presnetations were available that way."  H I have an issue with CETS not opening its content to all (except for theF NDA sessions); the best thing would be to broadcast the info as far asD possible; the second best thing would be to make it available to allI Encompass members; the worst-but-one thing is only making it available to H attendees, and the worst thing would be not making it available al all. K But it would be good to acknowledge that VMS Engineering (and Warren, who I H guess is in VMS Marketing), are sidestepping the CETS quagmire and doingC the best thing with the presentations that are under their control.    -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:33:12 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> $ Subject: Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?) Message-ID: <3BAE2AE8.55FC3AA8@gtech.com>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > > Didier Morandi wrote: + > > > > > jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil wrote: G > > > > > > Does any one have any info about a port of cpio to OpenVMS? 	 > > > > > , > > > > > W H A T   I S   CPIO ????????????? > > > > ? > > > > A common Unix utility. A very old Unix utility I think.  > > > > > > > Seems to be compilation of (unsplit?), g(un)zip and tar. > >  > > ???? > > ( > > CPIO is way older than GZIP/GUNZIP ! > > 8 > > And I do not think it is that related to TAR either. > % > I guess no one told FreeBSD then...    ????   Does FreeBSD claim that ?    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:39:49 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> $ Subject: Re: cpio ported to OpenVMS?' Message-ID: <3BAEAB05.E7F1B137@fsi.net>    Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > Arne Vajhj wrote:  > > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > > > > Didier Morandi wrote: - > > > > > > jamese@beast.dtsw.army.mil wrote: I > > > > > > > Does any one have any info about a port of cpio to OpenVMS?  > > > > > > . > > > > > > W H A T   I S   CPIO ?????????????	 > > > > > A > > > > > A common Unix utility. A very old Unix utility I think.  > > > > @ > > > > Seems to be compilation of (unsplit?), g(un)zip and tar. > > > 
 > > > ???? > > > * > > > CPIO is way older than GZIP/GUNZIP ! > > > : > > > And I do not think it is that related to TAR either. > > ' > > I guess no one told FreeBSD then...  >  > ???? >  > Does FreeBSD claim that ?   0 Take a look at their downloadables, for example:  @ ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/4.4-RELEASE/doc/  G Notice there is doc.aa through doc.cd. Append these together into, say, / doc.tgz, then unpack it like any other tarball.   D ...yet their installation system (which does *NOT* use install.sh inD that directory) uses cpio to read the segments sequentially and pipe8 them through gunzip to decompress and tar to un-archive.  G Been that way since I first started playing with it back around V2.2 or  so.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 23 Sep 2001 22:36:10 GMT3 From: vance@alumni.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)  Subject: Re: ftp login failure, Message-ID: <9olo4q$sqq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  + In article <9og3c7$27u$1@husk.cso.niu.edu>, '  <system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote: 4 >I have a user who can telnet in but can not ftp in. > 0 >Auditable event:          Network login failure2 >Event time:               21-SEP-2001 14:04:51.62# >PID:                      2040048E * >Process name:             TCPIP$FTPC00005" >Username:                 xxxxxxx< >Status:                   %LOGIN-F-INVPWD, invalid password > 7 >He has a bog standard account, no access restrictions. = >I can both telnet in and ftp using my standard user account.  >  >HELP! > > >Any clues as to what to look for would be deeply appreciated.  D   Does the person have a space in their password?  I remember comingC across this problem in an earlier version of UCX where Telnet would H work fine as does SET HOST in this case.  It seems that LOGINOUT removesH all the white space in a password but FTP which goes through a differentE authentication repects the whitespace and causes a missmatch with the F password in the UAF. The solution was to tell the user to change theirH password and not use spaces.  You could also tell your user to try their5 password but not use the space and see what happends.    -- Vance Haemmerle  vance@alumni.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:30:23 +0100 1 From: "Chris Townley" <news@townleyc.demon.co.uk> ; Subject: Re: How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail? B Message-ID: <1001287272.29759.0.nnrp-10.d4e45fa5@news.demon.co.uk>  L As I have not yet got around to getting mpack running (yes I know there is aD new version available) we currently use UUENCODE - there is a simple UUENCODE/UUDECODE available.  K Just run this in the file, and send the resultant .UUE as a file. Certainly + MS Outlook has no problem with these files.    -- Chris   ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message + news:GEuq7.434$YP.16584@news.cpqcorp.net... ? > In article <c67e4bdd.0109201309.6a5f6a88@posting.google.com>, & john_20_28_2000@yahoo.com (jm) writes:C > :How do I send an attachment with OpenVMS mail?  I also have smtp 1 > :installed.  OpenVMS version 7.2-1.  Thank you.  > 8 >   Via the MIME utility or MPACK or other similar tool.E >   MIME is part of OpenVMS.  MPACK is Freeware.  Various third-party % >   TCP/IP stacks include MIME tools.  > ( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion --------------------------- 1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering  hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:13:05 -0500 + From: Phil Mendelsohn <mend0070@tc.umn.edu> M Subject: Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security! H Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0109232100340.12559-100000@garnet.tc.umn.edu>  & On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Paul Sture wrote:  F > I won't claim it was easy, and ploughing through all the FAQ, READMEF > and HOWTO files can be _very_ frustrating. I believe I've got a muchD > better deal now I've switched from Red Hat to SuSe Linux (no doubtF > some Linux die hards might disagree, but it suits me) - far superiorB > documentation and the problem of dependancies highlighted in theF > article is solved with friendly prompts by the installation program.E > Tons of utilities to explore, and here again, the SuSe installation A > program works a treat, creating the correct environment (users, ? > directories, crontab entries etc) when you install a utility.   I I don't want to turn this into a Linux thread, but I started playing with E it before I had found the VMS hobbyist program and it was the closest E thing to a real computer that I could run at home.  The documentation 8 issue is real -- there's no single authoritative source.  > I would like to say that the testing that goes into the DebianH distribution is the most comprehensive and "DEClike" I've run into other than from DEC.  F > I'm still running Windows in parallel, but am now anticipating being> > able to can it completely in the very near future. Yessssss!   <abstract humor>I I don't know if Windows can run in parallel to _anything_ because much of ' its  behavior is distinctly non-linear.  </abstract humor>   E > Could I recommend it at work? Not yet (we do have a lot of in-house : > Windows apps), but it does look a promising alternative.  G Aw, sure you could.  But then you could recommend paper and pencil as a  performance improvement too. ;)    --  < I liked HP before computers, and at one time I liked Compaq,7 but I liked DEC better than HP and Compaq put together.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:46:31 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> M Subject: Re: In times like these ... OpenVMS now more than ever for security! ' Message-ID: <3BAEAC97.44C674F6@fsi.net>    Paul Sture wrote:  > [snipped, but acknowledged]   G Yeah - I'm actually looking forward to maybe this winter putting up the F latest Mandrake distro. or something and check out the new KDE versionC and Koffice. Some folks seem to like it. Just wanna see for myself.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:37:10 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> $ Subject: Re: VAX 7000 Installed Base( Message-ID: <3BAE2BD6.BB46018@gtech.com>   Rick Nickles wrote: @ > I'm looking to find out what the installed base (i.e. how manyH > machines are out there currently in use (in the US/Worldwide))  is for > the VAX 7000 product line. > ? > I'm not sure how to go about getting this information.  Ideas  > appreciated.  = Compaq may have a good clue, but will probably not reveal it.   2 Try and see how many in this forum has a VAX 7000.  < My guess would be that it is becoming relative rare. For two reasons:: 1)  It never sold that well, People started buying Alphas.= 2)  It is an old system now and most sold has been phased out      by now.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:18:29 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com># Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance . Message-ID: <3BADEF35.2303.12D19815@localhost>  1 On 23 Sep 2001, at 10:41, Robert Deininger wrote: J > > My "data center" is a very low-profile target, I have DSL, and I only 2 > > walk down one flight of stairs to get to work. > ' > And where is your remote data center?   @ About 30 miles away.  And the backups are several states away...     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:17:04 GMT 3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk> # Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance / Message-ID: <3BAE26E9.3221D2F0@cableinet.co.uk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > P > After the WTC disaster, someone posted a note asking for anyone with a certainM > vax model number to eventually rebuild their cluster now that they had lost ) > the node(s) in the destroyed buildings.  > J > I am curious as to what policies corporations would have with regards toH > end-of-lifed hardware in disaster tolerant  /mission critical systems. > O > While a vax cluster may be built as mission critical disaster tolerant system1P > and last a very long time, what happens when replacement hardware is no longer
 > available ?  > M > A disaster may very well allow you to switch to the backup site easily, butpO > when the time comes to rebuild your main site, what will you do ? A migrationoA > to another platform (Alpha or Intel) will be necessary, right ?i > L > Would corporations insist that current VAXes used in a mission critical beK > migrated to Alpha as soon as VAX hardware is no longer available from theeP > vendor, would they tolerate buying second hand VAX machines as replacemenst inL > case one fails, or would they remain blind to the problem until a disasterB > happens and they realise they can't replace the loast machines ?     JF  A repeat after me. "Compaq are still marketting refurbished VAXen".-   regards-   -- - Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  -  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of T! my employers or service provider.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:35:40 GMTl3 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk>G# Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerancen/ Message-ID: <3BAE2B45.5366F75F@cableinet.co.uk>H   Island Computers wrote:  > M > Strangely enough - We have had 3 calls from Compaq already (different partsuI > of the organisation) looking for 7800 parts and systems - as have other-/ > vendors with whom we deal on a regular basis.1J > Seems Compaq (unlike the Digital we all knew and loved) have carried the' > JUST IN TIME concept to WAY TOO LATE.  > L > The fact that people had these big beasts under maintenance suggests to meM > that Compaq ought to have had a few "Hot-Spares" ready to be either truckedm' > or flown in within a few hours noticev >  > Not so it seems....o > DT  A sigh, can anyone in Compaq Management say "due dilligence" with a  straight face?    i -- o Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  o  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:09:12 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com># Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerance . Message-ID: <3BADFB18.2194.12FF30F1@localhost>   > JF Mezei wrote:CN > > Would corporations insist that current VAXes used in a mission critical beM > > migrated to Alpha as soon as VAX hardware is no longer available from therR > > vendor, would they tolerate buying second hand VAX machines as replacemenst inN > > case one fails, or would they remain blind to the problem until a disasterD > > happens and they realise they can't replace the loast machines ?  D "They remain blind to the problem until a disaster happens and they E realise they can't replace the lost machines" seems to be the common d	 approach.p  - It's a cheap strategy if no disasters happen.y     --Stan  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-167151 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147t= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:41:44 -0700w' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>-# Subject: Re: VAX disaster toleranceu+ Message-ID: <3BAE3AF8.F7B64321@caltech.edu>J   Tim Llewellyn wrote:   >iC > repeat after me. "Compaq are still marketting refurbished VAXen".5 >9  R And they probably make some serious money by doing so, since many of those "sales"L are probably side effects  of the more expensive types of service contracts.O  Certainly more than they make on PCs - which they apparently sell at a loss ono
 each unit.  O You gotta wonder how the boards of companies like Digital and Compaq justify tobR themselves the megabucks they spend on the likes of Palmer and Capellas - it oftenM seems like even one of the company janitors could have made better managementnS decisions.   It's one thing to pay Gerstener or Welch (GE) big bucks, because there-O you're getting something for your money.  But I can't see how having Palmer andSJ Capellas as employees, let alone as CEO, was in anyway beneficial to these? companies.  Unfortunately Fiorina seems to be cut from the sameAL overpaid/underperforming cloth, so with merger or without, OpenVMS is in big troublem2 no matter how much money it makes for the company.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2001 15:06:18 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)I# Subject: Re: VAX disaster tolerancec= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0109231406.13cb88a1@posting.google.com>t  F For those who are really serious about disaster recovery, Digital (and@ now Compaq) sell a service called Recover-All, which promises toE replace equipment lost in a disaster.  This service isn't included insC a regular hardware service agreement; with that, they only agree to = service the equipment if it breaks, not to replace it if it'sC destroyed by a disaster.C -------------------------------------------------------------------sC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:sC Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/Ob   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:27:20 -0400e% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>m Subject: Re: VAX DOCUMENTe/ Message-ID: <tqsdsq7qcnpc8b@news.supernews.com>   1 These options work fine for me.  Although, I use:g  # <HTML_OPTIONS>(manual_segmentation)    instead of the logical name.  4 "Steve Thompson" <smt@twcny.rr.com> wrote in messageC news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0109211929500.4282-100000@ibmbox.vgersoft.com... 0 > On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote: >=1 > > If you use DECdoc with at least version 3.2 :I > >@3 > > $ DEFINE DOC$HTML_OPTIONS "MANUAL_SEGMENTATION"  > >f8 > > (This will make the body of your SGML file to becomeB > > one (large) HTML file. The Index will will be a separate file.@ > > You can than add <html_segment>("apples") tags to split your" > > HTML output wherever you want. >-K > Mmm, interesting. I have been a big user of DECdoc for many years, and amaK > currently using version 3.3. Under this version, and under 3.2 before it,sJ > I was never able to get these options to do anything. Please reveal your
 > secrets! >  > Steved >    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2001 18:50:01 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)w" Subject: Re: Which file to change!= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0109231750.3045c819@posting.google.com>   9 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message oF > So what are they going to change it to ?  Presumably the reason they9 > don't call it CDE is that it is not full CDE-compliant.   D Does it _really_ matter? - how about removing the message altogetherA (unless there has to be some sort of message there for complianceo	 reasons).e  ? Just as long as it does not contain quickly dated words such as-A "new" "latest" "greatest" etc. It's just that I've always thought * the message especially odd in this regard.  9 > don't call it CDE is that it is not full CDE-compliant.A  C There are so many references to CDE already within the product thata+ I doubt that would be a concern for Compaq.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:06:41 -0400w' From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com>y Subject: Re: World Trade Centera( Message-ID: <9olmag$8gq$1@pyrite.mv.net>  : "Randall Burlew" <rkburlew@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:Wclr7.8606$W83.808614@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...4 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message$ > news:9ojmhp$pa2$1@pyrite.mv.net...   ...   D > You have been promoting the virtues of discussion that agrees withB > you. You are also very condescending to people that do not agree4 > with you. That does not promote discussion at all.  J The only people I've been condescending to are those who refuse to addressI specific points of disagreement and/or mischaracterize, repeatedly, thoseE stances they disagree with.    >a@ > > > You have no problem separating the Iraqi populace from the? > > > authorities and quite rightly say that the people are notyD > > > responsible for their government's action but you (and others)< > > > are unwilling or unable to grant us the same courtesy. > >cL > > Of course I'm not:  we *are* responsible for our government's actions to ah > > *far* greater degree.o > > L > > We have the right to criticize it openly, and assemble for such purpose. > >fK > > We elect our leaders, who are thus at least periodically accountable to- us5 > > and at least somewhat responsive because of that.a >@H > There is precious little difference between Democrats and Republicans.   I don't agree.  G > Look at what our Democratic & Republican leaders are saying. Is there ) > one iota of difference between the two?I   Unfortunately, no.    What has President Bush done # > that Al Gore would not have done?g  K He has surrounded himself with old Cold Warriors who are thumping the drums L of war for all they're worth.  He has fanned the flames of the sentiment forI revenge rather than attempted to steer them into more rational paths.  He L has taken a belligerent, go-it-alone stance (not just in this situation, butF in other areas as well, such as his inclination to reject unilaterallyK existing and proposed treaties where they're not to his liking) and bulliede# our friends into nominal agreement.d  L Unfortunately, the President *does* occupy a position of unique influence atK a time like this.  By sensing the outrage and getting out in front of it herE has made it virtually impossible for more moderate politicians to airdH competing views without risking political suicide.  I'm not at all proudG that they didn't do so anyway, but I *am* quite sure that the situationtE would have been significantly different with Gore (and if not, I'd bey$ criticizing him just as vehemently).   >sG > > We have the capacity to stop this country's internal economy in its-	 > tracks,-C > > using entirely legal mechanisms that would not permit any legalr > retribution,H > > in a matter of hours should we unite as a group to do so (with a fewH > > exceptions legally protected from work stoppage that would not alone	 > suffices > > to keep things running). >tI > This is the only thing that might have even the remotest possibility ofl
 > working.  H I doubt that.  How often do you communicate your views in writing to theD President and to your Congressional members?  I sometimes do, but inJ retrospect I'd say I haven't as often as I should have:  New Hampshire hasF representation that seems unlikely to be responsive to my views, but IH should nonetheless make them clear (and likely also put more effort into changing that representation).   ...i  I > If the individual citizen shares the guilt or blame for the governments G > action, then any attitude or reprisals directed at the government cani& > also be directed at the individuals.  B So what?  That happens even when the people *aren't* as capable ofH controlling the actions of their government as we are (e.g., in targetedI boycotts of regimes whose policies one doesn't agree with, whose economiclL impact falls at least as much on their populations as on their governments).  A Whether holding a country's people collectively (as distinct fromfJ individually) responsible for their government's actions is *fair* dependsL on the degree to which they can control those actions.  But when it comes toG payback, it's often impossible to limit it to just a government withouteK affecting its people as well, regardless of their level of responsibility -0G and it's almost *always* impossible to distribute it precisely to those   individuals who most deserve it.  E That doesn't justify the *kind* and *level* of payback we received onaI September 11th, nor does it mean that the particular individuals affectedsL may have deserved any payback at all.  All it means is that we, as a people,L *do* have mechanisms available to us to avoid situations in the future whereD others feel some kind of payback, justified in its nature or not, is
 necessary.    Moreover, if an individual isJ > responsible for a group's action, then a lot of bigotry is justified. If@ > there happens to be a higher statistic of crime committed by aH > certain ethnic group, then I am justified in fearing, hating, etc. theI > entire group. That is the basis of all bigotry and it is the foundation  > of your defense.  L You're generalizing incorrectly and reaching a false conclusion as a result.  F An individual is responsible for the actions of a group only when thatK individual is a member of that group by choice *and* has well-defined meansiI available to influence those actions *and* either supports the actions oroD makes no real effort to deter them.  That is true in the case of ourD government and its actions, but is not true for ethnic groups, whereH membership is not voluntary and such things as crimes are the actions of0 individuals rather than of the group as a whole.  I It can also be true for various other organizations, ethnic or otherwise, D that act as a group rather than as individuals.  U.S. citizenship is@ voluntary, and people who do not wish to be bothered with takingK responsibility for their government's actions (either by supporting them or F by raising their voices in dissent) have the option to renounce it andJ thereby avoid such responsibility.  Of course, if they continue to live inK the U.S., they still run the risk of paying some price for our government'seF actions (just as they continue to reap the rewards of other aspects ofJ living here):  as stated above, regardless of 'fairness' it's difficult orI impossible to keep reactions to a government from affecting its people askI well (the burgeoning refugee crisis in Afghanistan being the most obviousr current example).k  K People are justified in blaming us, collectively, for inappropriate actionseJ our country may take because we, collectively, *do* have control over themJ (at least retroactively).  People are not justified in blaming individualsJ for those actions unless they know where those individuals stand on them -; but those individuals *are* responsible for taking a stand.j   >hH >  I will repeat. We have a responsibility. We are not responsible. This > is not a subtle distinction.  F Nor is it a valid one, at least for anything other than actions by ourG government too recent for us to have had the opportunity to respond to.   G Collectively, we are responsible.  Individually, we are responsible for G taking a stand one way or the other - and only if we have taken a clearwK stand against a government action are we not responsible as individuals for7 it.   L My guess would be that such a clear stand by anything approaching 20% of theD electorate would be more than sufficient to be effective in changingK government policy, given the low typical level of interest in such matters.-I That strongly suggests that at least 80% of the electorate (and I'd guessSE well over 90%) shares responsibility for most government policy on an E individual basis - even if they may be surprised by such a contention1& because they didn't think it mattered.   >c
 > >  The mostyG > > > you can say is that we have a responsibility to try to change our + > > > country's actions that we deem wrong.u > >oK > > That's a somewhat subtle distinction, but I do agree with it.  However,a ifB > > you wish to make that distinction, it implies that we have theF > > responsibility to evaluate our country's actions for merit or lack thereof3 > > and react appropriately. >a# > Yes. I will agree with the above.   C Then we may not be that far apart.  Perhaps the distinction between L collective and individual responsibility is just a point of confusion rather than an actual disagreement.   >.D > > I don't believe most people do that (especially when it comes toK > > international affairs which *appear* not to affect them at all), and inuL > > failing to do so such people become responsible for the *continuance* ofJ > > actions our country takes throughout the world.  The kinds of examples > I'veL > > given of activities we, as individuals, share responsibility for are notG > > random acts we haven't had time to react to (had we been paying any H > > attention at all):  they've been going on for many years or decades. > H > Apparently, you move in different circles than I do. One of the things thatL > really irks me is you think you have the right to speak for all Americans.  H I could get equally irked at your readiness to make pronouncements about= what I think.  But that would likely be equally unproductive.o  J You might take note of the introductory phrase "I don't believe..." above:G that's the difference between 'speaking for all Americans' and speaking  purely for myself.  I > You don't have the foggiest idea what I or millions of others Americanss do.w  L I have a pretty clear idea of what the majority of Americans do in this areaI by virtue of its reflection in our government.  So, it would appear, doesp the rest of the world.   > This is shear bigotry.  B I don't think you know the definition of the term:  holding peopleL collectively responsible for that which is under their collective control is' hardly bigotry.  See explanation above.    >eI > > That description applies to me as much as many:  I may feel generallynI > > uncomfortable with my limited awareness of what goes on in the world,6 butc > InI > > seldom take the time to learn more about it and actually do more thand voteE > > for people I believe may help change it.  Right-wingers call thatg 'liberalJ > > guilt' and disavow any such responsibility at all, while continuing to > feelI > > free for our country to throw its weight around in whatever manner ite mayU > > feel like. >tD > I know conservatives and liberals who are good people and aware ofI > what goes on in the world. I suppose your term right-winger is supposedaA > to be some sort of in insult against my conservative friends...n  H Part of the problem you're having understanding may be your readiness to 'suppose' such things.   >tJ > > There's another subtle aspect to our responsibility:  at least some of thesI > > oppression directly or indirectly supported by our government and oureK > > businesses contributes to our own affluence.  So turning a blind eye to1 itC > > has an uncomfortable element of self-interest as well as simpleV	 laziness.  >eK > There are a lot of people in this country that do not turn a blind eye to 0 > anything. Can't you get that through you head?  L Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation.  I would consider not attempting toI *do* anything about such things to be 'turning a blind eye'.  And I would L offer the failure to address such problems effectively even after decades asC evidence of a *collective* failure of effort, even though there aretH certainly *a few* individuals who have devoted their entire lives to it.   >i! > >  Anything beyond that and youlG > > > open the door to make everyone fair game, especially since almostaH > > > every country has some sort of blood on their hands. We might just4 > > > as well kill everyone off and be done with it. > >FL > > While that seems in some degree to be the direction we're now headed in,# > > that's not what I've advocated.h > >/K > > Being responsible for something in no way *justifies* arbitrarily harsh:I > > retribution:  punishment appropriate to the crime is the basis of ours > systemA > > of law, which also makes fine distinctions between accidents,y contributory< > > negligence, *reckless* negligence, and willful misdeeds. >eD > It justifies bigotry. After that you are on a very slippery slope.  ? Again, you fail to differentiate between bigotry and collectivep accountability.e   > I > > Most of the things I feel the American public can be held responsiblee for K > > fall into the first two categories, where responsibility may be as muchiK > > moral as legal (e.g., even when an accident occurs that injures others,sL > > those involved really should try to understand any steps they could take > to > > avoid another occurrence). > >i > > >IK > > > Another one is when you said that if the government did something youeJ > > > didn't like (I cannot remember the exact something), it would almostL > > > be enough to drive you to consider domestic terrorism. If that doesn'tL > > > give implicit justification to the terrorists, I don't know what does. > >rK > > A point that may be appropriate to make at this point is that there's a  > bithJ > > of terrorist in *anyone* who believes that some goals must be attained atE > > whatever cost.  That includes people who believe that large-scale  militaryG > > action is appropriate where no concentrated military threat exists,a peopleC > > who would consider slaughtering the families of terrorists as ah
 deterrent,H > > and people like me who believe that there are some (I hope extremelyH > > unlikely) actions that my country *could* take that would have to be1 > > actively resisted as strenuously as possible.a > >dJ > > The hypothetical action I "didn't like" was large-scale use of nuclearD > > weapons to wipe out entire populations in multiple countries.  I	 responded-G > > that this would justify whatever actions were necessary to stop it.pL > > Unfortunately, the physical means we use to carry out such actions oftenL > > aren't accessible, so what must be destroyed is the *will* to continue -J > > which is precisely the situation terrorists face (a perceived absolute > need4 > > to respond without the means to do so directly). > >sJ > > Would I actually start trying to wipe out large numbers of people here whoPL > > had no direct involvement if that appeared to be absolutely the only way > toE > > stop such indiscriminate slaughter abroad?  I don't know:  that's- playingmG > > God to a degree that makes me doubt my ability to choose correctly,= thoughI > > it doesn't seem to slow down others much when it comes to 'collateralPE > > damage' in some remote country.  I do know that I truly wish thatr whateverK > > such damage was inflicted on other uninvolved parties would be divinely.L > > inflicted, individual for individual, on U.S. citizens as well - since II > > believe that would lead to a considerable (and appropriate) change in  > > approach on our part.a > L > I was wrong here. You are giving explicit justification to the terrorists. > Thanks for making it clear.   H No, you're still still as wrong as ever.  What I'm stating (perhaps withC insufficient clarity) is that war seems to be far too antiseptic anrL occupation for us nowadays.  If we can't see that lives on the other side ofL the world are of much consequence, then some kind of intrinsic price that we- *do* consider significant would be desirable.   I Terrorists can't provide that, especially given the current mind-set:  it'K just causes escalation.  But the demented thinking that a lot of people areeL applying to this situation could not be applied to a divinity or other forceD of nature that instantaneously exacted tit-for-tat damage to our ownJ population when innocent people whom we otherwise wouldn't care much aboutK were affected:  it would then clearly be a consequence that *was* under ourg< control, and we could make rational decisions on that basis.   ...   G > You don't understand my points. I suspect you are not even trying to.b  H No, I am trying.  Perhaps you need to consider the specific problems you: think I'm having and rephrase your points to clarify them.    If you.G > can blame everyone in a group of people for the actions (or preceivediI > actions) of a few, you have justified most of the bigotry that has evere
 > existed.  D You keep coming back to this point, and I hope I've clarified my ownK feelings above.  But here you've taken it even farther from what I've said: L all but the most immediate actions of our government are, by definition, theL responsibility of something like a majority of the electorate, not 'a few' -C plus any others who have not taken some active stance against them.d   ...n  H > > Again, you're confused between causation and justification.  What isL > > *justified* is a great deal of anger, not a randomly homicidal response. >oH > That is not what you said above in your response to a possible nuclear% > scenario. I think you are confused.   H Nope.  I did not say that such a response was justifiable on my part, inK fact I questioned my ability to determine a correct course of action.  WhenfJ the *only* option available is to fight horror with horror, decisions tend@ to come from the gut, because the horror transcends rationality.  G At least some terrorists feel they have no other options:  this doesn'tsH justify their actions, but it does mean we can understand that they *do*K have causes that we may be able to reduce in ways that don't compromise oure own values.e  I We, on the other hand, have lots of options, and therefore no excuse (let + alone justification) for irrational action.n   >a > >iI > > Unfortunately, when you get a large number of people extremely angry,h someG > > of them won't be very picky about how they respond (e.g., there's ao	 > growingrL > > number of reprisals - several hundred reported as of yesterday - againstD > > people who just *looked like* Arabs in this country that have noE > > 'justification' whatsoever - but the news media call this 'almosta- > > unavoidable' because of human nature...).n >hI > I see you like to pick out the worst possible comment by the news mediaaH > and trot it out as what the entire media has been saying. I have heard; > repeated calls for tolerance, from the President on down.t  K My point is the double standard involved:  if people can understand (though E not justify) such 'reprisals' in this country, they should be able tomI understand (though not justify) terrorists - and start working on ways tokF reduce the tension there just as we attempt to reduce it here (whoops:I we're *not* actually attempting to reduce the tension here, but rather tolD escalate it in preparation for war, so perhaps there's just a bit of9 hypocrisy in at least some of those calls for tolerance).n   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:41:33 -0500w1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a Subject: Re: World Trade Centera' Message-ID: <3BAEAB6D.975A3282@fsi.net>t   David Froble wrote:f > [snipped]p  D Hey! David Froble! How are you doing, sir??!! Haven't seen ya 'round these parts for a while now.   -- a David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:16:39 GMTy/ From: "Randall Burlew" <rkburlew@earthlink.net>i Subject: Re: World Trade Center E Message-ID: <Hsyr7.10296$W83.974360@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>h  2 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@foo.mv.com> wrote in message" news:9olmag$8gq$1@pyrite.mv.net... > >tJ > > There is precious little difference between Democrats and Republicans. >  > I don't agree.  B OK. Tell me how perfect Bill Clinton's foreign policy was. Tell meC what party got us involved in Vietnam. Tell me with a straight face* how good the Democrats are.h   <Snip>  K > > If the individual citizen shares the guilt or blame for the governmentsiI > > action, then any attitude or reprisals directed at the government can ( > > also be directed at the individuals. >.D > So what?  That happens even when the people *aren't* as capable ofK > controlling the actions of their government as we are  (e.g., in targeted K > boycotts of regimes whose policies one doesn't agree with, whose economic @ > impact falls at least as much on their populations as on their
 governments).n  & Because it happens doesn't justify it.  C > Whether holding a country's people collectively (as distinct fromrL > individually) responsible for their government's actions is *fair* depends8 > on the degree to which they can control those actions.  K So you say an individual can be held collectively responsible for somethingaH but is not individually responsible? If the individuals are collectively responsibleeK then you cannot say they are not individually responsible, because you have A already made them responsible. Your argument does not make sense..   >But when it comes tovI > payback, it's often impossible to limit it to just a government withouti< > affecting its people as well, regardless of their level of responsibility -I > and it's almost *always* impossible to distribute it precisely to thosei" > individuals who most deserve it.  F This very same argument can be used to justify an attack on Afganistan" regardless of civilian casualties.   <Snip>  E > People are justified in blaming us, collectively, for inappropriaten actionshL > our country may take because we, collectively, *do* have control over themL > (at least retroactively).  People are not justified in blaming individualsL > for those actions unless they know where those individuals stand on them -= > but those individuals *are* responsible for taking a stand.   E This control is imaginary, because you cannot control how the elected H person will act. You do not know which promises they will keep and whichG they lied on. Even if you had perfect knowledge of the candidates, they H can change. Again, if you can blame individual for a supposed collectiveH evil, you cannot follow by saying they are not individually responsible. They* are either responsible or not responsible.  H Your moral code holds individuals responsible for situations they cannot predict and cannot control.f   <Snip>  I > > > > Another one is when you said that if the government did somethingp youfL > > > > didn't like (I cannot remember the exact something), it would almostF > > > > be enough to drive you to consider domestic terrorism. If that doesn'tfH > > > > give implicit justification to the terrorists, I don't know what does.a > > >lK > > > A point that may be appropriate to make at this point is that there'sn axG > > > bit of terrorist in *anyone* who believes that some goals must bepG > > > attained at whatever cost.  That includes people who believe thatcF > > > large-scale military action is appropriate where no concentratedH > > > military threat exists, people who would consider slaughtering theK > > > families of terrorists as a deterrent, and people like me who believesE > > > that there are some (I hope extremely unlikely) actions that mys country L > > > *could* take that would have to be actively resisted as strenuously as > > > possible.  > > > L > > > The hypothetical action I "didn't like" was large-scale use of nuclearF > > > weapons to wipe out entire populations in multiple countries.  IG > > > responded that this would justify whatever actions were necessary L > > > to stop it. Unfortunately, the physical means we use to carry out suchG > > > actions often aren't accessible, so what must be destroyed is therK > > > *will* to continue - which is precisely the situation terrorists facei (aC > > > perceived absolute need to respond without the means to do so 
 directly). > > >tL > > > Would I actually start trying to wipe out large numbers of people hereI > > > who had no direct involvement if that appeared to be absolutely thel onlyF > > > way to stop such indiscriminate slaughter abroad?  I don't know: that'sF > > > playing God to a degree that makes me doubt my ability to chooseH > > > correctly, though it doesn't seem to slow down others much when itL > > > comes to 'collateral damage' in some remote country.  I do know that IL > > > truly wish that whatever such damage was inflicted on other uninvolvedH > > > parties would be divinely inflicted, individual for individual, on U.S.J > > > citizens as well - since I believe that would lead to a considerable (and2 > > > appropriate) change in approach on our part. > >tB > > I was wrong here. You are giving explicit justification to the terrorists.f > > Thanks for making it clear.g >m* > No, you're still still as wrong as ever.  ? Justification is a moral basis for your actions. You have said:c  ; 1) Some have reason for believing that the US is destroyingd> their countries, their people, their way of life, their lives.  = 2) You would be justified in resorting to any means necessaryx: to stop the destruction of your world, up to and including mass murder of civilians.e  ; Unless you are willing to say that there is something wronge; with your moral code, your own words justify the terrorists : attack. The conclusion is inescapable. You are, whether or2 not you admit it, trying to justifying the attack.   Randyi   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:37:31 -0400l2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)L Subject: Re: [OpenVMS] V7.2 VAX satellite doesn't find V7.3 Alpha bootserverL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2309011237310001@user-2ivebk3.dialup.mindspring.com>  B In article <3badf412$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net wrote:  . > Just a quick question before I reread my FM. > N > I upgraded my Alpha bootserver from V7.2-1 to V7.3 and now my still V7.2 VAXI > satellite doesn't boot any longer (can't find disk server - MOP is ok).f > F > Mixed version V7.3 and V7.2 and architecture is said to be possible,) > so, please, what did I miss obviously ?h > 8 > btw, the Alpha satellites did boot without problems...  G Take a close look at the MSCP* parameters on the disk servers.  Are theaI required disks really being served?  In some cases the default parameterstJ are not what you need, and an upgrade might have snuck those defaults back into the system.   -- s Robert Deininger rdeininger@mindspring.comk   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2001 00:32:53 +0200* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)L Subject: Re: [OpenVMS] V7.2 VAX satellite doesn't find V7.3 Alpha bootserver* Message-ID: <3bae6315$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  W In article <3bae1fec$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:k >In article <rdeininger-2309011237310001@user-2ivebk3.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:D >>In article <3badf412$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net wrote:0 >>> Just a quick question before I reread my FM. >>> P >>> I upgraded my Alpha bootserver from V7.2-1 to V7.3 and now my still V7.2 VAXK >>> satellite doesn't boot any longer (can't find disk server - MOP is ok).r >i* >%VAXcluster, no connection to disk server >rH >>> Mixed version V7.3 and V7.2 and architecture is said to be possible,+ >>> so, please, what did I miss obviously ?b >>> : >>> btw, the Alpha satellites did boot without problems... >>I >>Take a close look at the MSCP* parameters on the disk servers.  Are thenK >>required disks really being served?  In some cases the default parametersrL >>are not what you need, and an upgrade might have snuck those defaults back >>into the system. >d$ >That was my first guess, of course: >o >$ sysgen sh mscpeN >MSCP_LOAD                       1          0         0      16384 Coded-valu N >MSCP_SERVE_ALL                  1          0         0         15 Bit-Encode N >MSCP_BUFFER                  1024       1024       256         -1 Coded-valu N >MSCP_CREDITS                    8          8         2        128 Coded-valu O >MSCP_CMD_TMO                    0          0         0 2147483647 Seconds    Df >nI >But I don't see what parameters might be wrong, and why they only affecte. >the VAX client and not the Alpha clients too. >e= >The disk is from an HSJ and all disks are served as usual...a  K Just to be sure, I did an VMSupgrade of the VAX satellite from V7.2 to V7.3hM during the last hours via a temporary-locally-attached disk. Upgrade went ok,nI but booting this new system disk via the Alpha server still doesn't work.e   Currently I'm stumped...   -- t< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111-2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111-888l< <<< KAPSCH AG  Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2001.531 ************************