1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 04 Apr 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 186       Contents:2 Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on Intel& Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3& Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3* Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.34 re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan...4 Re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan... Re: API for FTP  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  RE: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: British Summer Time  Re: British Summer Time  CARTS LUG meeting 10-APR-2002 $ Re: Cluelessness in the Compaq Ranks Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  RE: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Continuous forms printers  re: Digital 7-year plan... Re: Digital 7-year plan... entrails and tea leaves  Re: entrails and tea leaves  Re: entrails and tea leaves  Re: entrails and tea leaves 8 Re: Fred Kleinsorge at work (formerly HP's viewpoint...) Fun with a new langage Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  RE: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  import users Re: import users Re: import users Re: import users Re: Is AMD doing an Intel? Re: Is AMD doing an Intel?$ Re: Java exec env value not working?$ Re: Java exec env value not working?$ Re: Java exec env value not working?$ Re: Java exec env value not working? LANCP ERROR MESSAGE D Re: Language support on Itanium VMS (was: Announcing a boot contest) Re: Macro-64 and Vax VMS Re: Memory Channel vs. CI  Re: Memory Channel vs. CI  Re: Memory Channel vs. CI  Re: Memory Channel vs. CI ? Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest ? Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest P Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest         for OpenP Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on IP Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on I) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it  Re: RAM for MicroVAX 3300 > Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks Re: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!! Re: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!' Strange behaviour of telnet connections - Re: TCPIP: no new default route when IP is ON & Telnet sessions randomly disconnecting Re: The Digital 7-year plan... Re: The Digital 7-year plan... Re: The Digital 7-year plan... using the  sqlca structure Re: using the  sqlca structure% Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation % Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation  Wanted: the VMS pedigreeP Re: White paper now avaialble - Total Cost of Ownership for Enterprise Class Clu( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:26:42 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> ; Subject: Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on Intel + Message-ID: <3CAC3872.83549455@mediasec.de>   M > > Have you tried typing the first letter of the two-letter abbreviation for J > > the state while the cursor is in that popup list?  Many browsers will @ > > position the cursor to the first entry matching that letter. > G > Please see my rebuttal, elsewhere in this thread, to someone else who ? > made that claim.  Hint: try that after securing your browser.   G For all its faults, this still works in Netscape 4.7 on Windows with JS  turned off.    	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:06:20 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> / Subject: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBDELAA.tom@kednos.com>   @ I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to log@ in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is any C capital letter.  Typically the attempts are short and the come from A different ips, in different countries.  Is there any way to block B such users?  My concern isn't so much them breaking in, although aA certain amount of paranoia in this respect is healthy, but it is  ? cluttering up the log files, which record legitimate downloads.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:14:00 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org/ Subject: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3 ) Message-ID: <02040410140072@antinode.org>   # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> B > I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to logB > in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is any  > capital letter.  [...]  B    I've done no serious research on what appears to be a family ofC scripts designed to use your FTP server as free storage, but I have H learned a little from casual observation.  If you have a directory namedE "incoming" with write access, you can expect to find files in it from F time to time.  If it also allows read access, you'll probably get evenF more files there.  If you lack such a directory, even a Solaris systemE seems to be safe from any problem other than entries in the log file.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home) C    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work) G    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work) 9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 11:37:07 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 3 Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3 3 Message-ID: <kH$N8xdfyCn5@eisner.encompasserve.org>   B In article <02040410140072@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org writes:% > From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> C >> I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to log C >> in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is any   >> capital letter.  [...]  > D >    I've done no serious research on what appears to be a family ofE > scripts designed to use your FTP server as free storage, but I have J > learned a little from casual observation.  If you have a directory namedG > "incoming" with write access, you can expect to find files in it from H > time to time.  If it also allows read access, you'll probably get even > more files there.   D If you are going to allow both read and write access to unauthorizedE parties, I would suggest introducing subtle modifications to the file  just after it is written :-)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:23:38 -0500 From: Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com = Subject: re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan... A Message-ID: <OFCB88A738.E28BB191-ON85256B91.004E3264@cca-int.com>     Didier Morandi wrote 03 Apr '02: | 
 |System 1032?  | I |Is this a late aprilfool joke? I'm doing VMS support since 1982. I heard  of DECI |Rdb, DEC DBMS, Oracle, Sybase and Informix (and I may forgot one or two)  but I J |never heard of System 1032. What is the name of the editor? Did they ever sell |in Europe?   E Not a joke.   Rather like VMS itself, we're a bit of a niche product. H System 1032 is a follow-on [sibling] product to the System 1022 databaseH product sold in the 70's+ for the Decsystems hardware.  TOPS-10 & 20 OS.H (S1022 is still in use today in the EU - have you ever ridden the Danish railway system?)  K Just because you haven't heard of us does not mean we don't exist.  (Though J more exposure would certainly help...)  Check Google - I've posted before, albeit infrequently.  G S1032 doesn't need an editor - one uses their VMS editor of choice.  (I  prefer EDT.)  J We have, and do sell in the EU.   If you like, I can put you in touch with the sale rep for the region.   -Tym Stegner
 S1032 Support    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:44:08 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> = Subject: Re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan... ' Message-ID: <3CAC9EF9.EA840C29@Free.fr>    Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote:  D > Just because you haven't heard of us does not mean we don't exist.   No flame, no flame!   I > S1032 doesn't need an editor - one uses their VMS editor of choice.  (I  > prefer EDT.)  O (so do I). Sorry, there is a misunderstanding here. In French, an Editor is the $ mauufacturer of a piece of software.  L > We have, and do sell in the EU.   If you like, I can put you in touch with > the sale rep for the region.  S I'm not sure that, in my next position, I will have to sell VMS layered products...    D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:23:23 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: API for FTP; Message-ID: <XAXq8.15103$iU6.2502761@news20.bellglobal.com>   F But there is an FTP API in Process Software's TCPware product (for VAXD and/or Alpha). TCPware also has a TELNET API which can be pointed toL different ports to do different things like HTTP (reminds me of the HTTP API= in Windows which can be used to do other things like TELNET).   J I'm very surprised that Compaq hasn't added these two APIs because my team couldn't live without them.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/   2 "Jakob Erber" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3ca975ad$1@news.post.ch...  > Hi There,  > K > just to make it sure: There is still no API for FTP on VMS? (compaq tcpip  > services)  >  > best regards >  > Jakob  >  > --K > What I publish in this group, is to be understood as my personal opninion C > and must not be interpreted as a official statement of my company  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 00:08:08 -0800 4 From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert)  Subject: Re: Blade architectures' Message-ID: <a8h1l8$d8q$1@gw.retro.com>   $ Erik Magnuson  <erik@cts.com> wrote:B >Hmm. Somewhere around 5 to 6 nines you really have to pay as muchF >attention to facilities and infrastructure as you do the computer/OS.   My, you're optimistic.  @ Try at 3 nines.  Commercial standards for facilities and networkE performance aren't generally 4 nines, even in really good datacenters @ and network facilities.  I had one facility dump power for hours; when a UPS bug and a Generator Bug conspired to panic both, < another which nearly caught me in a FM-200 discharge after a> welding accident when someone was repairing a cracked Liebert.C The stage 1 smoke and discharge alarms are not all that disturbing. E Being caught 150 feet from the door when the alarm reaches stage 2... A Fortunately the building manager braved it out and cut the system A a second or so before it discharged, since the Liebert was not in > fact on fire and there were a couple of people stuck under the: raised floor in the next cage over who would probably have asphyxiated had it gone off.  F >This includes things like buildings resistant to natural and man madeE >disasters, power supplies and communications links designed to avoid H >single points of failure (e.g. Jim-Bob backhoe operator cutting through >your fiber optic lines).   D See Marcus and Stern's "Blueprints for High Availability" for a goodD intro to the subject, though the NANOG and Datacenters mailing lists* are good for more war stories and gotchas.     -george william herbert  gherbert@retro.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:37:04 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Blade architecturesC Message-ID: <QgUq8.222367$2q2.19779791@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   A "George William Herbert" <gherbert@gw.retro.com> wrote in message ! news:a8h1l8$d8q$1@gw.retro.com... & > Erik Magnuson  <erik@cts.com> wrote:D > >Hmm. Somewhere around 5 to 6 nines you really have to pay as muchH > >attention to facilities and infrastructure as you do the computer/OS. >  > My, you're optimistic. >  > Try at 3 nines.   E Well, yes - but that's what site-disaster-tolerant configurations are L designed to handle, and even Win2K can be set up to fail over in that mannerL if you use long FC links to separated mirror-pairs of fail-over-shared disks from multiple separated hosts.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:11:29 -0600+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>   Subject: RE: Blade architecturesJ Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178437C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: hack@watson.ibm.com [mailto:hack@watson.ibm.com]  @ Congratulations!  There aren't many six-nines systems out there.C (OS/390 Sysplex is another one, also thanks to clustering.  Without I clustering I believe five nines is the best I've heard, also for OS/390.) 9 How many nines can an NT cluster claim?  A single NT box?   I I imagine an NT "cluster" can claim about 1 "nine" -- that is, 9% uptime.    :)   Chris     ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:49:16 -08000 From: "Brig Campbell" <brig.campbell@unisys.com>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures/ Message-ID: <a8i3mu$il9$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>   - "hack" <hack@watson.ibm.com> wrote in message % news:a8g46p$lcc$1@news.btv.ibm.com... ? > In article <d7791aa1.0204031254.534f2833@posting.google.com>, + > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote: $ > >Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy= <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote in message " news:<3CA1FC84.7020901@sun.com>... > > 9 > >> Anyone who thinks the Linux on a mainframe is a good = > >> idea must have deep pockets and little or no shareholder  > >> scrutiny. > >> > >> Regards > >> Andrew Harrison > > D > >gentlemen, the only system available to run efficently, securely,? > >and give you 99.9999% uptime w/its superior clustering is an @ > >Alpha VMS system ... there are no others ... discussion over! > B > Congratulations!  There aren't many six-nines systems out there.E > (OS/390 Sysplex is another one, also thanks to clustering.  Without K > clustering I believe five nines is the best I've heard, also for OS/390.) ; > How many nines can an NT cluster claim?  A single NT box?  > 	 > Michel.  >  >   J The Datacenter program for Windows 2000 offers "A minimum uptime guaranteeK of 99.9% availability" for a single box.  Vendors are free to go higher for K specific applications/configurations.  Unisys has customers with individual 6 systems running in very managed environments at 5-9's.  ) Windows 2000 Datacenter Program overview: L http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/datacenter/evaluation/business/windcpro g.asp    -brig    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:19:55 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>   Subject: Re: Blade architectures* Message-ID: <wkelhvxr5s.fsf@earthlink.net>  2 "Brig Campbell" <brig.campbell@unisys.com> writes:L > The Datacenter program for Windows 2000 offers "A minimum uptime guaranteeM > of 99.9% availability" for a single box.  Vendors are free to go higher for M > specific applications/configurations.  Unisys has customers with individual18 > systems running in very managed environments at 5-9's. > + > Windows 2000 Datacenter Program overview:eN > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/datacenter/evaluation/business/windcpro > g.aspd  B one of the places that we looked at when we were doing ha/cmp thatE needed five nines was 1-800 lookup service (aka the mapping between a0@ 1-800 number and a real numbers). That was total of five minutesE outage per year ... regardless of reason, planned, unplanned, etc.  A > non-clustered fault-tolerant system w/o hot-pluggable software; ... could fail the five-nines system with a single software. maintenance event.  F another issue when we were working on the distributed lock manager forF HA/CMP ... was various of the DBMS vendors that also had products thatF ran in VMS cluster environment had complaints about the length of timeE things were suspended when a failure occured and lock consistency hadA@ to be rebuilt in a VMS environment. One major requirement of theE HA/CMP DLM (by various DBMS vendors) was to have a significant fastero4 recovery time (than vms) when a cluster node failed.  D Note however, that even for five nines ... various natural disastersD become a major consideration ... just about requirement geographiclyD distributed cluster (we had coined the term "disaster survivability"E during our ha/cmp days to distinquish from straight disaster recoveryo scenarios).e   misc. ha/cmp refs:/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmpo   random refs:g http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm2.htm#availability A different architecture? (was Re: certificate pathat http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmail.htm#variations variations on your account-authority model (small clarification)? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#time Certifiedtime.comuS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#pressign President Clinton digital signingvL http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay2.htm#cadis disaster recovery cross-posting? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing?b@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390L http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#145 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systemsN http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?K http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#32 Multitasking and resource sharingcX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#33 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#41 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?B http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#66 KI-10 vs. IBM at RutgersC http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP C http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#4 Block oriented I/O over IPf? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrided http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'E http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0tE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#47 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0uD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#5 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit.4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#90 Buffer overflowr8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#24 Buffer overflow8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#28 Buffer overflow@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#44 Calculating a Gigalapse http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#63 Filesystem namespaces (was Re: Serving non-MS-word .doc files (was Re: PDP-10 Archive migrationplan))d| http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?): http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#47 Multics_Security   -- tE Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/m   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:49:37 +01004 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>  Subject: Re: British Summer TimeB Message-ID: <1017913966.22910.0.nnrp-01.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>  + I've had one suggestion, which didn't help:@  def/sys/exec mx_timezone "+0100"- I did an mcp reset/all for good measure, too.LF It's got to be something to do with timezone configuration, or iupop3.  @ Ahh - @sys$manager:utc$time_setup - always good to read the FAQ.   Sorry everyone.w Chrisi  ? "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote in messageo< news:1017823930.25390.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk...; > OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, TCPIP (ucx) 5.1 eco 3, iupop3, mx 5.0.eF > I dialled in to set Summer Time on Monday night (I thought it did it% > automatically, but apparently not).  >eI > Now everything (VMS, PCs) shows the right time, but email's arriving on  PCs $ > timestamped an hour in the future. >r: > Here's all the logicals I can see ($ sh log *tim*,*tz*).+ > Anyone know what I've done wrong please ?o >o	 > Thanks,m > Chris Sharmano >e" >   "IUPOP3_CLIENT_TIMEOUT" = "10"8 >   "PWRK$PCFS_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:35.63"7 >   "PWRK$PCI_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:35.63"a= >   "PWRK$STREAMSOS_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:36.50"t- >   "SYS$DST_DELTA_TIME" = "ffff2726a756d909" A >   "SYS$LOCALTIME" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.SYSTEM]GB-EIRE."f( >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING" = "0"% >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "0"e >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME" = "GMT"i: >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE" = "GMT0BST-1,M3.5.0/01,M10.4.0/02"3 >   "SYS$TZDIR" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.USER]"k/ >         = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.SYSTEM]"o! >   "TCPIP$BIND_TIMEOUT" = "...."n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:39:10 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>.  Subject: Re: British Summer Time: Message-ID: <IPXq8.8041$3z6.2332927@news20.bellglobal.com>  B In OpenVMS-7.3 you should check sysgen parameter "Auto_Dlight_sav"  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,a Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/   ? "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote in message < news:1017823930.25390.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk...; > OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, TCPIP (ucx) 5.1 eco 3, iupop3, mx 5.0.yF > I dialled in to set Summer Time on Monday night (I thought it did it% > automatically, but apparently not).T >LI > Now everything (VMS, PCs) shows the right time, but email's arriving on  PCso$ > timestamped an hour in the future. >e: > Here's all the logicals I can see ($ sh log *tim*,*tz*).+ > Anyone know what I've done wrong please ?r >o	 > Thanks,a > Chris Sharman  > " >   "IUPOP3_CLIENT_TIMEOUT" = "10"8 >   "PWRK$PCFS_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:35.63"7 >   "PWRK$PCI_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:35.63"i= >   "PWRK$STREAMSOS_STARTUP_TIME" = "23-FEB-2002 17:57:36.50"f- >   "SYS$DST_DELTA_TIME" = "ffff2726a756d909"cA >   "SYS$LOCALTIME" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.SYSTEM]GB-EIRE."g( >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING" = "0"% >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "0"t >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME" = "GMT" : >   "SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE" = "GMT0BST-1,M3.5.0/01,M10.4.0/02"3 >   "SYS$TZDIR" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.USER]"5/ >         = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$ZONEINFO.SYSTEM]"A! >   "TCPIP$BIND_TIMEOUT" = "...."y >  >n >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:47:56 -06001 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> & Subject: CARTS LUG meeting 10-APR-20028 Message-ID: <a8hpb5$pn8$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  ( When: Wednesday April 10, 2002 at 7:00pm  - Where: Compaq's Office in Schaumburg Illinoist  J The April meeting will be held at Compaq's Schaumburg office at 1124 Tower Road.o  J Note: Due to Compaq Training Sessions scheduled for the firstweek of Apri1E at the Compaq office, the meeting has been rescheduled for the secondd Wednesday in April.    AGENDA   A few brief Announcements    Questions and Answersd  H Bring your questions and answers. With any kind of luck we'll be able to match questions with answers.e     TOPIC: STORAGE DEMO.  I Pioneer-Standard will be giving a presentation and demo of the Compaq SANdI Management Appliance (Network View, Element Manager, and Storage ResourcehC Monitor), the MSA1000 Fibre Channel system, and 64 port SAN Switch.i  G Jim Heschelman of Compaq will also be on hand to answer storage relatedr	 question.T  I We will also have people from SBA at the meeting to talk about and answer  questions related to Encompass.i   FOOD BEFORE THOUGHTr  J A number of LUG members will be meeting anytime after 5:00pm for dinner atE Fuddruckers on Golf Road west of Plum Grove Road. No reservations arer necessary. Join us if you can.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:31:53 +01001% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h- Subject: Re: Cluelessness in the Compaq Ranks 8 Message-ID: <3a7oau80begcurmeh2rihs1or2eq0u3ite@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:40:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  L >I thought that Compaq purged its ranks of the completely clueless, but suchL >apparently is not the case. A friend of mine who resells Compaq's family ofL >fine enterprise systems and storage recently had an encounter with a CompaqG >employee who bears the title "Operations Manager." If this "OperationsAL >Manager" was a surgeon she'd be defrocked for malpractice. Seems she told aM >manager for a leading distributor that she would not authorize a competitivepG >allowance on a deal because "It is not Compaq's intention for Alpha tot >compete against an Intel box."P >eM >Something tells me the "Operations Manager" in question is not the brightestT >bulb in the chandelier.  B Ah the incompetence theory again. I prefer the view that he's justA following Compaq high level policy. If that makes me a conspiracy  theorist then so be it.w -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:18:57 +0200sE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> & Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again+ Message-ID: <3CAC2891.9F0C22D2@mediasec.de>s  H >         Hand count... just like they do in Canada.  Thankfully, we useH >         machines for general elections here in the USA.  And further -M >         even with dangling chads - the outcome comes out excellent!  Can yae >         believe it?0  I No, I can't. Try reading comp.risks on (electronic) voting, and the leadse you get from there.g  E Hand count doesn't mean "slow" - it's in the "embarassingly parallel":L category. We usually have reliable results on general elections two to three hours after polls close.   	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:04:23 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>o& Subject: RE: Compaq below $10.00 againT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CED23@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Re: manual counting ..  J Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has something to do =H with all shareholders being able to change votes prior to the closing. =B Hence, they need to ensure only the most recent votes are counted.  G It's a tad different from a general election where you are allowed to =a vote only once.2   Regardsn  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.s Professional Servicesf Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----= From: Jan C.Vorbr=FCggen [mailto:jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de]=20a Sent: April 4, 2002 5:19 AMf To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com & Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again    H >         Hand count... just like they do in Canada.  Thankfully, we useH >         machines for general elections here in the USA.  And further -H >         even with dangling chads - the outcome comes out excellent!  = Can ya >         believe it?n  E No, I can't. Try reading comp.risks on (electronic) voting, and the =o leads you get from there.   G Hand count doesn't mean "slow" - it's in the "embarassingly parallel" =-H category. We usually have reliable results on general elections two to = three hours after polls close.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:22:31 -0500.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r& Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again, Message-ID: <3CAC99E5.1F7E710B@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:a > Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has something to do with all shareholders sL >being able to change votes prior to the closing. Hence, they need to ensure only the most recent   >votes are counted.t  + How many ballost are we dealing with here ?r  . Were the ballots in any way machine readable ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:38:34 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a& Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again3 Message-ID: <Ia1r8.1891$fL6.37715@news.cpqcorp.net>0  J Apparently by law, they have to be certified.  They are paper ballots, andH they are done by hand.  I have no idea how many individual ballots thereI were, but the external company had a pretty firm idea of how much time ita would take..  K A lot of us are hoping that the counting and legal stuff is all over by the9C end of the month or early next month, so we can get moving forward.e      = JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAC99E5.1F7E710B@videotron.ca>...  >"Main, Kerry" wrote:TK >> Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has something to dou with all shareholders9F >>being able to change votes prior to the closing. Hence, they need to ensure >only the most recentp >>votes are counted. >c, >How many ballost are we dealing with here ? > / >Were the ballots in any way machine readable ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:29:52 -0500.0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>& Subject: Re: Continuous forms printers; Message-ID: <040420021129528620%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>$  5 In article <3CA25322.8BCCD99B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei1% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:o  O > A friend needs a low end printer to generate reports on continuous form paperd$ > (tractor feed) from a serial port. ...oE > Any suggestions on where I might look for something not expensive ?h  E Genicom, who now sells the LA series printers, has the LA36N for $679cC USD.  They also have used and refurbished printers for sale, so yous might want to check them out.   8    http://www.genicom.com/usa/products/usedequipment.htm   Paul   -- g  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringc   Compaq Computer Corporations   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:27:27 -0500 From: Tym_Stegner@cca-int.comy# Subject: re: Digital 7-year plan...sA Message-ID: <OF4E703470.CE31EC32-ON85256B91.004F29AF@cca-int.com>b  " Frank Sapienza wrote on 3 Apr '02:  I |Come on, that's a late April Fool's joke, right?  Oracle has a marketingTJ |department?  When was the last time you saw an ad or *anything* marketing orG |promoting Oracle RDB (nee DEC RDB) for OpenVMS?  They are as silent one theirr* |OpenVMS product as Compaq is with the OS!  G OK, possibly I was remembering when they _did_ market for VMS.  If they F did.  Regardless, almost everybody knows that Oracle has/is a database system, which was my point.o   -Tym   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:45:15 +0200-- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>p# Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...n' Message-ID: <3CAC9F3C.7EDE7B0E@Free.fr>:  M I would add to Franck's post that, last year, the search engine of the Oraclel! WEB site gave no match for Rdb...:   D.   Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote: > $ > Frank Sapienza wrote on 3 Apr '02: > K > |Come on, that's a late April Fool's joke, right?  Oracle has a marketingpL > |department?  When was the last time you saw an ad or *anything* marketing > orI > |promoting Oracle RDB (nee DEC RDB) for OpenVMS?  They are as silent onn > theira, > |OpenVMS product as Compaq is with the OS! > I > OK, possibly I was remembering when they _did_ market for VMS.  If theyhH > did.  Regardless, almost everybody knows that Oracle has/is a database > system, which was my point.n >  > -Tym   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:00:18 -0800p' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>,  Subject: entrails and tea leaves+ Message-ID: <3CAC7892.7E871594@caltech.edu>t  B What are the seers to make of the "top 150" list HP just released? See:  -   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020403/30446_1.htmlo  @ Notably absent from any of the pieces covering this announcement: are the strings "vms", "tandem", "marcello", and "gorham".: On the other hand, none of these press pieces or the press@ release on the HP site listed all 150, so maybe they just didn'tF make the writer's "cut" for importance.  (Which would be odd in itself? since together they add up to a rather large chunk of revenue.)eA As opposed to not making HP's "cut" for future employement, which ( would be good news only for IBM and Sun.     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 10:58:27 -0600t+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h$ Subject: Re: entrails and tea leaves3 Message-ID: <na+$Htw1PFjO@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  U In article <3CAC7892.7E871594@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:oD > What are the seers to make of the "top 150" list HP just released? > See: > / >   http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020403/30446_1.htmla > B > Notably absent from any of the pieces covering this announcement< > are the strings "vms", "tandem", "marcello", and "gorham".< > On the other hand, none of these press pieces or the pressB > release on the HP site listed all 150, so maybe they just didn'tH > make the writer's "cut" for importance.  (Which would be odd in itselfA > since together they add up to a rather large chunk of revenue.)1C > As opposed to not making HP's "cut" for future employement, whichx* > would be good news only for IBM and Sun. >   @ 	Also noticeably absent are: "linux", "hp/ux", "windoze", "nt" ,& 	"2000", "world hunger" and "x-files".  ! 	Also noticeably absent is "nist"t  ' 	But here... to help you understand....   < 	Blackmore heads up the Enterprise group, and the folks you	< 	can't find will be under his direct report, Scott Stallard.  K Executives who will report to Peter Blackmore, executive vice president, HP## Enterprise Systems Group, include: y  7 Greg Anderson, Enterprise Systems Group Human Resources12 Janice Chaffin, Enterprise Marketing and Solutions Nora Denzel, Softwaree' Howard Elias, Network Storage Solutionsn# William McBee III, Integration Leadr( Mary McDowell, Industry Standard Servers Irv Rothman, Financial Servicesp) Scott Stallard, Business Critical Systemsr7 Bernard de Valence, Enterprise Systems Group Operationsp* Ken Wach, Enterprise Systems Group Finance5 Rob Walker, Industry Verticals and Corporate Accountst Ed Yang, Integration Lead    	Hope that helps...    				Rob   -N "It is considered awkward to use seriously such words as good and evil. But ifM  we are to be deprived of those concepts, what will be left?  We will declinen.  to the status of animals.   -- Solzhenitsyn     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:44:38 -0500/- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t$ Subject: Re: entrails and tea leaves+ Message-ID: <3CAC9F13.9089297@videotron.ca>t   Rob Young wrote:I >         Also noticeably absent are: "linux", "hp/ux", "windoze", "nt" ,r/ >         "2000", "world hunger" and "x-files".w  H While I would not have expected to see Gorham in there (product specificM manager), Marcello had been elevated above product lines to pure unproductive4J management position, so I would have expected to have seen his name in the( types of positions that had been listed.  M Perhaps he will be given a nice package and he will then retire or find a jobs? elsewhere. Rememer that at least 12,000 will be made redundant.h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:41:34 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>h$ Subject: Re: entrails and tea leaves3 Message-ID: <xd1r8.1893$fL6.37732@news.cpqcorp.net>&  K The published list was "2nd level" positions "1st level" was already known.-F Rich is/was not in a 2nd level position.  From the list, it is easy to "guess" who we will work for.u    < JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAC9F13.9089297@videotron.ca>... >Rob Young wrote:eJ >>         Also noticeably absent are: "linux", "hp/ux", "windoze", "nt" ,0 >>         "2000", "world hunger" and "x-files". >lI >While I would not have expected to see Gorham in there (product specificiA >manager), Marcello had been elevated above product lines to pureg unproductiveK >management position, so I would have expected to have seen his name in the.) >types of positions that had been listed.5 >.J >Perhaps he will be given a nice package and he will then retire or find a job3@ >elsewhere. Rememer that at least 12,000 will be made redundant.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:29:39 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>iA Subject: Re: Fred Kleinsorge at work (formerly HP's viewpoint...)a' Message-ID: <3CAC2B13.BE440A06@aaa.com>,  " Oh, I forgot the ":-)" in my post. Here is is :    :-)  	 Jan-Erik.h   Robert Deininger wrote:P > 2 > In article <3CAB18B4.D70973D9@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik3 > =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:E > B > >Oh, just for no reason at all, anyone know a good, high quality > >color printer ? > : > Where are you going to get the right paper and ink?  ;-) > L > Getting a current (last issued in the 1930's) $1000 bill accepted would be: > difficult.  Passing the 1880 model would be even harder. >S   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:52:12 +0200$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Fun with a new langage 3 Message-ID: <NmVq8.1849$fL6.37281@news.cpqcorp.net>P  1  I have noticed a new langage available, Malbolge-   It is available at' http://www.acooke.org/andrew/index.html"   To display Hello World in this langage, just do  L (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXW+ VUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O<oLmD  ( As you see, it is very user friendly :-)   Grard   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:03:38 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>   Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX8 Message-ID: <r35oau4dj6rpd7qmpad87u8jgk5noie4mj@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:01:40 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:m   >Fred, >iE >one question: how many 10/20's did DEC/Digital sell and how many VMS 	 >systems?i  ? Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in the E thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle 100a? or more interactive users even in 1980. According to a 1982 NDAp? presentation the Jupiter next generation DEC-20 was expected toT? support up to 1000 users and was, in many ways according to the5@ presentation, a 72 bit machine .A typical VAX/VMS system of 1980D supported a much smaller user population and had trouble handling 20? users. The DEC-10/20 was DEC's mainframe range. VAX/VMS was the E supermini. Initially they did not usually compete in the same market.T/ There was room for both or room for compromise.   @ That's my recollections as someone who administered both VMS and  TOPS-20 side by side for years.   4 >That should put things in perspective, wouldn't it.K >OTOH I do understand Crispin's feelings and yes, VMS may go down the drain. >in a M >similar way as TOPS. That is the lesson: corporate policies have no relation0 >tom >customer needs. So be it. >c >Hans Vlems  >u >c? >Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagen. >news:G7Jq8.1827$fL6.37293@news.cpqcorp.net...M >> Come on.  I wasn't really doing the comparison.  The moron tried to make apD >> point that the decision to drop the 10/20 in favor of VAX/VMS was
 >"suicide"I >> for DEC.  My point is that if it was, then it was the best decision wet >evermK >> made.  And if he is trying to draw Alpha comparisons, I can only hope itr. >> will be as successful as that decision was. >>& >> Peter da Silva wrote in message ...7 >> >In article <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net>,a8 >> >Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:I >> >>But let me assume that there was an intent to illuminate or teach us H >> >>something... To address the stupidity in the base note - if killing >AlphaM >> >>leads to the same results that killing the DECsystem-20 did -- then letsn >> allK >> >>cheer.  Technical rants and lost souls aside - the VAX/VMS era was theo >> mostp9 >> >>successful time in the history of Digital Equipment.i >> >I >> >There are a number of differences between IA64 and the VAX. Technicall	 >> issues 
 >> >aside: >> >F >> > Digital was 100% behind VAX/VMS: "all the wood behind one arrow",E >> > and VMS was a new clean OS design with a single core vision... I-E >> > don't happen to care much for VMS but I do have to give it that.< >> >G >> > CHomPaq has 2 UNIX variants it's trying to merge, a 64 bit NT thatDD >> > it abandoned a few years back and now needs to resuscitate, andG >> > three legacy operating systems (and they just killed one of them).I >> >G >> > Plus they have IA32 and x86-64 competing with IA64, and no controlpG >> > over that. And then there's active Linux work on all four hardware F >> > platforms (ia32, x86-64, IA64, and Alpha). And it sometimes seemsH >> > most of the innovative people left are messing around with iPaq and
 >> > Itsy. >> > >> >--D >> >Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.                                  WWFD? >> >J >> >"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" >> > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)s >> >> >f   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:50:38 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX8 Message-ID: <n44oauc63t2s5qb3sekton311rp11gfpug@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:49:54 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  K >Come on.  I wasn't really doing the comparison.  The moron tried to make a:L >point that the decision to drop the 10/20 in favor of VAX/VMS was "suicide"  F Fred, if you call me,  a customer who has spent significant amounts onD VMS and is still pushing VMS internally,  a moron from a Compaq mailD address one more time I *will* make an official complaint to Compaq.  D It was the thinking behind the document that led to slow suicide notD any single one decision. Quite clearly the Bell logic set out in theE paper would, if applied today, result in the immediate termination ofoC VMS. Why can't you understand the point? Have you read it? Had BellmF understood that there were more TOPS-10/TOPS-20 *users* than VMS users< at the time it would have probably resulted even then in theD cancellation of VMS. Bell's argument is based, in large part, on CPU? sales but he forgot that a typical 10/20 of the time had a userC6 population in the thousands or even tens of thousands.  L >for DEC.  My point is that if it was, then it was the best decision we everI >made.  And if he is trying to draw Alpha comparisons, I can only hope ito  D And all the customers who were screwed by it were "morons". Fine. ByD the exact same logic dropping VMS shortly will be "the best decision7 HP ever made" and anyone who complains is just a moron.y  = Get it through your head. I am not saying VMS killed Digital.   , >will be as successful as that decision was. >n$ >Peter da Silva wrote in message ...5 >>In article <7bGq8.1813$fL6.36956@news.cpqcorp.net>,-6 >>Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:G >>>But let me assume that there was an intent to illuminate or teach usVL >>>something... To address the stupidity in the base note - if killing AlphaK >>>leads to the same results that killing the DECsystem-20 did -- then letsf >allI >>>cheer.  Technical rants and lost souls aside - the VAX/VMS era was theg >most-7 >>>successful time in the history of Digital Equipment.e >>G >>There are a number of differences between IA64 and the VAX. Technical  >issuese >>aside: >>D >> Digital was 100% behind VAX/VMS: "all the wood behind one arrow",C >> and VMS was a new clean OS design with a single core vision... IaC >> don't happen to care much for VMS but I do have to give it that.- >>E >> CHomPaq has 2 UNIX variants it's trying to merge, a 64 bit NT thatFB >> it abandoned a few years back and now needs to resuscitate, andE >> three legacy operating systems (and they just killed one of them).y >>E >> Plus they have IA32 and x86-64 competing with IA64, and no controliE >> over that. And then there's active Linux work on all four hardwaretD >> platforms (ia32, x86-64, IA64, and Alpha). And it sometimes seemsF >> most of the innovative people left are messing around with iPaq and >> Itsy. >> >>--B >>Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.                                  WWFD? >>H >>"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" >> -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)  >.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:45:32 +0200eE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>h  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <3CAC2ECC.DED216B6@mediasec.de>c  A > Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in the G > thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle 1009A > or more interactive users even in 1980. According to a 1982 NDAdA > presentation the Jupiter next generation DEC-20 was expected to>A > support up to 1000 users and was, in many ways according to theeB > presentation, a 72 bit machine .A typical VAX/VMS system of 1980F > supported a much smaller user population and had trouble handling 20 > users.  H That's not my recollection. In about 1981, we had a dual-processor KL-10I and a 780. Very soon, almost everybody in the 150-odd user population was-E on the VAX. Part of the reason was that the KL-10 was supporting one mK particular application (measuring and analysing bubble and streamer chamberrK images) that severely taxed it. But the 780 certainly had no trouble at allt supporting more than 20 users.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:59:01 +0200eE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <3CAC31F5.77650DF6@mediasec.de>h  F > It was the thinking behind the document that led to slow suicide notF > any single one decision. Quite clearly the Bell logic set out in theG > paper would, if applied today, result in the immediate termination ofoE > VMS. Why can't you understand the point? Have you read it? Had Bell H > understood that there were more TOPS-10/TOPS-20 *users* than VMS users> > at the time it would have probably resulted even then in the > cancellation of VMS. j  I I don't see this as really a correct reading of the document. There are a.I number of technical reasons given why the 10/20 would require significanthI extensions to architecture and software to have compareable facilities to?G VAX. The point that customers prefer to have a single architecture fromoN desktop to data center is still valid, IMO. It does point out that significantK effort would be required to ease transition from the other architectures to L VAX, and that at least the 11 should continue to occupy the lower end of theI spectrum. Also, there is the argument that following too many development-J lines simultaneously might result in important ones not achieving criticalF mass - I can't say whether that was true, but it definitely is a valid concern.  H There was a period when VAX/VMS with clusters really delivered what BellK promised - apart from the low-cost, low-end systems that never materialized.@ (at the time the uVAX systems arrived, they were a joke, and theL workstation/"server" pricing model was, while clear in its intent, an insultH as well). I worked in a network of systems that could easily share data,K everybody could log in from any of the stations or dumb terminals to any ofpL the systems he had access to, it was easy to share compute resources via the% distributed batch system, and so on. m  F What really broke VMS in these environments (a physics institute and aM biological research institute) was abysmal price-performance and insufficientnM absolute performance by about 1989, and no indication (public, at least) of a1H clear way forward. By the time the Alpha arrived, Sun had taken over the market.s  K Not that there wasn't arrogant behaviour on the part of VMS development, of N which the insistence not to put command completetion and other useful featuresL into DCL is only one part. But in general, the advantages of the VMS/clusterM approach by far outweighed these deficiencies (and they seem to have improvedn  in recent years in this regard).   	Jan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:53:55 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.comm  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hg5o$pin$4@bob.news.rcn.net>r  / In article <U4Kq8.286$o3.4403@typhoon.bart.nl>,g&    "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote: >Fred, >eE >one question: how many 10/20's did DEC/Digital sell and how many VMSc	 >systems? 4 >That should put things in perspective, wouldn't it.  D Nope.  Because a customer had to buy five VAX/VMS systems to replace@ the computing resources of a -20.  It was _how much work_ a user= could get done.  VMS was not a clean new OS.  It's philosophya@ was deeply rooted in the RSX thinking.  Timesharing was anathema to the philosophy.   /BAH   <snip>  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.m   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:57:00 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.com   Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hgbh$pin$5@bob.news.rcn.net>n  8 In article <r35oau4dj6rpd7qmpad87u8jgk5noie4mj@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote: F >On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:01:40 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote: >t >>Fred,i >>F >>one question: how many 10/20's did DEC/Digital sell and how many VMS
 >>systems? >H@ >Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in theF >thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle 100) >or more interactive users even in 1980.    * And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500.   > ..According to a 1982 NDAy@ >presentation the Jupiter next generation DEC-20 was expected to@ >support up to 1000 users and was, in many ways according to theA >presentation, a 72 bit machine .A typical VAX/VMS system of 1980uE >supported a much smaller user population and had trouble handling 20A@ >users. The DEC-10/20 was DEC's mainframe range. VAX/VMS was theF >supermini. Initially they did not usually compete in the same market.0 >There was room for both or room for compromise.  B The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of the> OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned but it took a very long time.n     >eA >That's my recollections as someone who administered both VMS andn! >TOPS-20 side by side for years. a <pins>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:45:22 +0200sE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>c  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <3CAC4AE2.4074CA4A@mediasec.de>z  , > And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500.  L Our dual KL-10 definitely couldn't - it started to break at around thirty or so.t  D > The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of the@ > OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned but > it took a very long time.o  H Come on, that's just nonsense. It was as time-sharing capable as TOPS-10J very early on. The batch and print system initially left some things to beL desired, and DSC was crap, but the base system was quite useable from day 1.> Certainly more useable than some Unix variants a decade later.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:46:33 +0200gE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>a  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <3CAC4B29.7758A688@mediasec.de>h  F > Nope.  Because a customer had to buy five VAX/VMS systems to replaceB > the computing resources of a -20.  It was _how much work_ a user? > could get done.  VMS was not a clean new OS.  It's philosophy B > was deeply rooted in the RSX thinking.  Timesharing was anathema > to the philosophy.  / You clearly are living in a different universe.    	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:55:39 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>"  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <v1Zq8.1861$fL6.37522@news.cpqcorp.net>l   Alan Greig wrote in message ...t5 >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:49:54 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"r% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:i > G >Fred, if you call me,  a customer who has spent significant amounts on E >VMS and is still pushing VMS internally,  a moron from a Compaq mail E >address one more time I *will* make an official complaint to Compaq.  >d  L Sorry to confuse the content with the sender.  The problem will be solved, IG will filter any/all notes from you so that I don't see the content, andr won't offend the sender.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:12:13 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>   Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXE Message-ID: <1bZq8.4971$0r1.459@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messageo% news:3CAC31F5.77650DF6@mediasec.de...o >=H > What really broke VMS in these environments (a physics institute and aB > biological research institute) was abysmal price-performance and insufficientJ > absolute performance by about 1989, and no indication (public, at least) of aJ > clear way forward. By the time the Alpha arrived, Sun had taken over the	 > market.  >-  + Same problem in the business community too.r  J Sun came along with a lower-priced platform that could often be brought inD 'under-cover' because it didn't have to go so high up the purchasing? chain-of-command to get approval to sign the check..."It's onlyiH $25,000..sign it at the department level..central purchasing/CFO doesn'tI need to get involved."  Remember at the time a comparable performance VAX8 was $100-150K.  K Upto and during that era, the VAX usually was under the control of the guystC with pocket protectors (no offense), who also were the ones who ran-L ACCOUNTING every month to send out the chargebacks to each department. I wasL one of the victims of such 'accounting' for quite some time, until I told myL boss that I was buying a VAX for my sub-department (fixed income research atJ a major brokerage firm). I told him that I was either going to buy the VAXJ as an entire system, or in pieces, charged on my credit card and expensed.K But I just as easily could have gone out and bought Sun and ported the codep$ too (Fortran with a bit of Macro32).  K There were a whole bunch of factors involved in the decline of DEC, but thexK biggest in my mind was as Jan states above - price/performance and absolutenJ performance. And these failings were the result of managerial decisions atI the highest levels. Not to mention the high cost of compiler licences andn CONDIST/CONOLD.T   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:16:38 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXF Message-ID: <afZq8.4996$0r1.3392@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  H We were comfortably handling about 30-40 users on a 750 in 1982. But theL machine was absolutely filled with memory to do it. Can't recall exactly how! much - I think 16Mb rings a bell.   L And we were being charged something in the order of $25-40,000/month for the privilege of using itc    ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message<% news:3CAC2ECC.DED216B6@mediasec.de...eC > > Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in theII > > thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle 100tC > > or more interactive users even in 1980. According to a 1982 NDA"C > > presentation the Jupiter next generation DEC-20 was expected toiC > > support up to 1000 users and was, in many ways according to thenD > > presentation, a 72 bit machine .A typical VAX/VMS system of 1980H > > supported a much smaller user population and had trouble handling 20
 > > users. >pJ > That's not my recollection. In about 1981, we had a dual-processor KL-10K > and a 780. Very soon, almost everybody in the 150-odd user population wassF > on the VAX. Part of the reason was that the KL-10 was supporting oneE > particular application (measuring and analysing bubble and streamer  chambernI > images) that severely taxed it. But the 780 certainly had no trouble atr all   > supporting more than 20 users. >i > Jani   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:24:34 GMT 2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX5 Message-ID: <3CAC6251.67CF91EE@bartek.dontspamme.net>>   "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote: > . > > And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500. > N > Our dual KL-10 definitely couldn't - it started to break at around thirty or > so.a  H Then there was something seriously wrong with the system, the admins, orH the users themselves sucking up too many resources and not realizing it.  E 30 users on a 2020 w/512Kwords of core was a breeze. One such 2020 ataK BOCES-LIRICS Dix Hills ran the business office database - 30 users poundingeE the database at the same time was nothing for it to handle. That RP064 danced, boy!  C ANOTHER CAVEAT: This was running TOPS-10 6.03A - not 7.x or TOPS-20r  F > > The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of theB > > OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned but > > it took a very long time.t > J > Come on, that's just nonsense. It was as time-sharing capable as TOPS-10L > very early on. The batch and print system initially left some things to beN > desired, and DSC was crap, but the base system was quite useable from day 1.@ > Certainly more useable than some Unix variants a decade later.  L But, having done VMS development on a 780 in '83, I remember having problemsJ just doing an EDIT/TECO when there were more than 20 people on the system.F 5 minutes to load TECO is not usable in my opinion - of course, it wasI memory starved :) And the users were all doing different things requiringnO COBOL/FORTRAN - they were converting from an IBM 360 and used COBOL ruthlessly.a   aak    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:14:02 GMTt2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX5 Message-ID: <3CAC5FD9.85B18FE4@bartek.dontspamme.net>e   Alan Greig wrote:o > A > Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in thetG > thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle 100r* > or more interactive users even in 1980.    I take exception to that :)y  C BOCES-LIRICS Dix Hills had five 2020's and the LOGMAX was turned upe to 128.g  F Sometimes when a system went down for extended periods they would moveH all the students from one machine over to the other. There were at leastF 40 users at a time per machine, so a max of 80 at once. However, thereI were times when people were shuffled around and once in a while "RED" had D over 100 users at a time. They were mostly running BASIC, but still,9 there were 100 people banging on their keyboards at once.   B CAVEAT: The above users connected through a DCA that muxed all theD terminals into one card in the UNIBUS. They were NOT using DZ11's :)  ? I believe RED also had 512K words. ORANGE actually had 1M word.    aaka   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 12:34:51 GMTK From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hpjf$27p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>t  + In article <3CAC4AE2.4074CA4A@mediasec.de>,sI    Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:t- >> And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500.  >lK >Our dual KL-10 definitely couldn't - it started to break at around thirty   or >so.  D Were you running master/slave?  That would have been 6.03x monitors.? The 7.0n monitors were SMP.  A dual KL could take a performances; hit if an app required a disk drive that was single ported.t   >oE >> The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of theeA >> OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned buta >> it took a very long time. >PI >Come on, that's just nonsense. It was as time-sharing capable as TOPS-10o >very early on.a  ! Sorry but the performance sucked.   @ > .. The batch and print system initially left some things to be4 >desired, and DSC was crap, but the base system was  >quite useable from day 1.  > Useable is not the only criteria.  Reasonable response time is" more important, IME,  than usable.  ? >Certainly more useable than some Unix variants a decade later.p  ? I know people who valued usability and, thus, loved VMS because.> of it.  They also were introduced to it when it ran on Alphas;> thus, they also got reasonable response.  IOW, they got their = work done.  VAX sucked.  HINT:  I never got my work done when- I had to use a VAX.-   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 12:36:25 GMTu From: jmfbahciv@aol.come  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hpmd$27p$2@bob.news.rcn.net>e  5 In article <3CAC6251.67CF91EE@bartek.dontspamme.net>,t6    Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote: >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote:  >> i/ >> > And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500.t >> pF >> Our dual KL-10 definitely couldn't - it started to break at around 	 thirty orn >> so. >aI >Then there was something seriously wrong with the system, the admins, ormI >the users themselves sucking up too many resources and not realizing it.n >0F >30 users on a 2020 w/512Kwords of core was a breeze. One such 2020 atD >BOCES-LIRICS Dix Hills ran the business office database - 30 users  poundingF >the database at the same time was nothing for it to handle. That RP06
 >danced, boy!t >lD >ANOTHER CAVEAT: This was running TOPS-10 6.03A - not 7.x or TOPS-20 >gG >> > The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of the C >> > OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned but- >> > it took a very long time. >>  K >> Come on, that's just nonsense. It was as time-sharing capable as TOPS-10eK >> very early on. The batch and print system initially left some things to e beI >> desired, and DSC was crap, but the base system was quite useable from   day 1.A >> Certainly more useable than some Unix variants a decade later.e >oE >But, having done VMS development on a 780 in '83, I remember having W problemsK >just doing an EDIT/TECO when there were more than 20 people on the system. G >5 minutes to load TECO is not usable in my opinion - of course, it washJ >memory starved :) And the users were all doing different things requiringE >COBOL/FORTRAN - they were converting from an IBM 360 and used COBOL b ruthlessly.a  C It was also a task based system.  There weren't any sharable hisegs  AFAIK.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.?   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 12:38:27 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hpq6$27p$3@bob.news.rcn.net>r  3 In article <v1Zq8.1861$fL6.37522@news.cpqcorp.net>, 9    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  >e  >Alan Greig wrote in message ...6 >>On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:49:54 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"& >><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >>H >>Fred, if you call me,  a customer who has spent significant amounts onF >>VMS and is still pushing VMS internally,  a moron from a Compaq mailF >>address one more time I *will* make an official complaint to Compaq. >> > L >Sorry to confuse the content with the sender.  The problem will be solved,  ItH >will filter any/all notes from you so that I don't see the content, and >won't offend the sender.t  A [emoticon shakes its head and holds it to await the pain to pass]d  = Boy does history repeat itself.  We used to beat this fuckingm! attitude out of our developers.  d   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.v   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:25:18 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>c  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>m  & jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message ...4 >In article <v1Zq8.1861$fL6.37522@news.cpqcorp.net>,: >   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >>! >>Alan Greig wrote in message ...h7 >>>On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:49:54 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"t' >>><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:u >>>tI >>>Fred, if you call me,  a customer who has spent significant amounts oncG >>>VMS and is still pushing VMS internally,  a moron from a Compaq mailaG >>>address one more time I *will* make an official complaint to Compaq.- >>>- >>L >>Sorry to confuse the content with the sender.  The problem will be solved, >II >>will filter any/all notes from you so that I don't see the content, andt >>won't offend the sender. >.B >[emoticon shakes its head and holds it to await the pain to pass] >e> >Boy does history repeat itself.  We used to beat this fucking  >attitude out of our developers. >n  K Look.  There isn't anything I can say/do that will make a handful of people E who have become quite bitter, happy - heck the pdp10 people are still K "crying in their beer" (to coin a phrase from Mark) a couple decades later. I But there is a constant pitter patter of poison in here that sometimes isiK hard to take.  I admit to having said something perhaps inappropriate about-K a *person*, when it was the content of what he said I had the problem with.hK So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I can fix it in.I the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate, by turning J off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of "real"
 substance.  L He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help on...: which is the primary reason I read this conference anyway.  G BTW - I don't know many "developers" who read these conferences... theyeJ waste too much time.  But I'm certainly glad I'm not someplace where it isK acceptable to be beaten ;-)  Of course, I'm not quite sure who emoticon is.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:40:41 GMTwL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX8 Message-ID: <00A0BF34.7C150BF6@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  l In article <afZq8.4996$0r1.3392@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:I >We were comfortably handling about 30-40 users on a 750 in 1982. But the.M >machine was absolutely filled with memory to do it. Can't recall exactly howe" >much - I think 16Mb rings a bell.  L Not 16mb on a 750 in 1982, I don't think.  ISTR it maxed out lower than thatN with DEC memory, and it took high-density third-party memory for us to get ourE 750 up to 14mb in 1986.  (In 1985, when I got there, we had a 780 fortM scientific use and a 750 for administrative use; we did about 50 users on the L 750, running Word-11.  Rdb and Datatrieve were very slow, which made us very* much interested in an 8700 the next year.)   -- Alane    O ===============================================================================d0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 14:23:06 GMTb From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX+ Message-ID: <a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net>s  3 In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>, 9    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:-' >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message ...25 >>In article <v1Zq8.1861$fL6.37522@news.cpqcorp.net>,g; >>   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:e >>> " >>>Alan Greig wrote in message ...8 >>>>On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:49:54 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"( >>>><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >>>>J >>>>Fred, if you call me,  a customer who has spent significant amounts onH >>>>VMS and is still pushing VMS internally,  a moron from a Compaq mailH >>>>address one more time I *will* make an official complaint to Compaq. >>>> >>>fF >>>Sorry to confuse the content with the sender.  The problem will be  solved,0 >>I5J >>>will filter any/all notes from you so that I don't see the content, and >>>won't offend the sender.s >>C >>[emoticon shakes its head and holds it to await the pain to pass]e >>? >>Boy does history repeat itself.  We used to beat this fucking<! >>attitude out of our developers.i >> >FF >Look.  There isn't anything I can say/do that will make a handful of  peopleF >who have become quite bitter, happy - heck the pdp10 people are stillF >"crying in their beer" (to coin a phrase from Mark) a couple decades  later.  > Look.  The only reason I'm talking about this stuff is so that< people doing current development, maintenance and usage will; learn based on my experience.  Do you think this is fucking-; pleasant for me?  Go find something out about people whose h initials are JMF and TW.    J >But there is a constant pitter patter of poison in here that sometimes is >hard to take. e  B They have been reminded of the past because it is happening again.> This thread could be predicted because of the fiasco that just= happened with Compaq and HP.  Those of us who do know how the 3 OS biz works, can see that HP doesn't do it either.o    A > .. I admit to having said something perhaps inappropriate aboutiG >a *person*, when it was the content of what he said I had the problem A with.r  C No.  YOu said something very inappropriate to your CUSTOMER.  Then,i> when he objected, pointing out that he was an active customer, you said something worse.u  J >So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I can fix it  inJ >the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate, by turningK >off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of "real"v >substance.r > H >He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help  on...a  C He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibitedc> none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.& OS experts can read between the lines.    ; >which is the primary reason I read this conference anyway.  > H >BTW - I don't know many "developers" who read these conferences... theyK >waste too much time.  But I'm certainly glad I'm not someplace where it istI >acceptable to be beaten ;-)  Of course, I'm not quite sure who emoticon g is.   B Beating was the least painful punishment ;-).  If you got JMF and . TW pissed off, they could really screw you up.  ? If you were a den mother and they wanted to play, you might notn4 never be able to login on you stand alone machine.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:29:04 GMT / From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>t  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXF Message-ID: <A30r8.6427$0r1.5372@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ? "Arthur Krewat" <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote in messagej/ news:3CAC5FD9.85B18FE4@bartek.dontspamme.net...4 > Alan Greig wrote:l > >sC > > Most of the  tens or twenties sold had a user population in theeE > > thousands or tens of thousands. Most (2020 excepted) could handle  100 + > > or more interactive users even in 1980.1 >  > I take exception to that :)e > E > BOCES-LIRICS Dix Hills had five 2020's and the LOGMAX was turned upf	 > to 128.  > C > Sometimes when a system went down for extended periods they wouldsF > move all the students from one machine over to the other. There wereB > at least 40 users at a time per machine, so a max of 80 at once.@ > However, there were times when people were shuffled around and? > once in a while "RED" had over 100 users at a time. They weree@ > mostly running BASIC, but still, there were 100 people banging > on their keyboards at once.a >a
 [snip....]  < It is pointless to argue about number of users that could be; supported without knowing what the users are doing. I ran ah5 2060 with 512k words at a research lab of 200 people. : It was a Fortran shop. Typically we had 30 users logged in9 at once, most of whom were editing data or source code orr- doing short runs (one or two minutes of CPU),s0 plus one or perhaps two CPU intensive batch jobs (one hour of CPU).  : In this context, the system response was fully acceptable.4 Compared to today's standards, CPU power was limited? and some jobs such as rasterizing a TeX file to a laser printer ? could really slow the system. If everyone was doing simple data3> entry with one program, the system could have supported *many*C users. Image processing or calculations involving large data arrayso< could cripple response. In many cases, the critical thing to9 users was response to terminal input rather than how muchf CPU you got.  ( Too bad we can't run some benchmarks. :)   Dona e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:31:54 GMTu* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXC Message-ID: <e60r8.226429$2q2.20131295@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net...5 > In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>, ; >    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:    ...r  I > >He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help  > on...S >sE > He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibitedl@ > none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.( > OS experts can read between the lines.  L Not apparently in this case.  Fred's technical expertise is just fine - it'sA in the wider world that his analytical ability falls a bit short.t   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:31:24 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r  Subject: RE: IA64 is not the VAX9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEBOELAA.tom@kednos.com>    > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]v( > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:32 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComO" > Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX >M >0 >dL > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net...7 > > In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,@= > >    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:g >D > .... >.K > > >He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants helpn	 > > on...e > >dG > > He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibited0B > > none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.* > > OS experts can read between the lines. >-B > Not apparently in this case.  Fred's technical expertise is just
 > fine - it'seC > in the wider world that his analytical ability falls a bit short.h  " Maybe he slices his tee shot, too.   >e > - bill >  >l >t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:31:09 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>   Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <L31r8.1889$fL6.37583@news.cpqcorp.net>,   Tom Linden wrote in message ...t >r >y >> -----Original Message----- 2 >> From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]) >> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:32 AMT >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com# >> Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXO >> >> >>' >> <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message-% news:a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net...28 >> > In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,> >> >    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >> >> ....< >>L >> > >He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help
 >> > on... >> >H >> > He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibitedC >> > none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite. + >> > OS experts can read between the lines.w >>C >> Not apparently in this case.  Fred's technical expertise is justu >> fine - it'sD >> in the wider world that his analytical ability falls a bit short. >o# >Maybe he slices his tee shot, too.  >d  H Only when I swing too "hard", my hands don't rotate quickly enough and IL come through with an open clubface - and a big bannana result of course.  MyL problem tends to be the straight push, or hard pull - I think it's mostly myE setup.  But I will occasionally hit a really bad hook with my driver.t  = Wait!   My analytical ability is OK - my swing just sucks ;-)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 12:37:17 -0600l+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <qGOg5KM$UOQb@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  k In article <P_0r8.1887$fL6.37519@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:e( > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message ...5 >>In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,o >>@ >>Look.  The only reason I'm talking about this stuff is so that> >>people doing current development, maintenance and usage will= >>learn based on my experience.  Do you think this is fucking6< >>pleasant for me?  Go find something out about people whose >>initials are JMF and TW. >> > K > I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =   > 	JMF "bah" - bah humbug?  bah seems to be a placeholder... his; 	tagline often says "subtract 104 for email" , i.e. - "civ"a   				Rob    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:25:51 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <P_0r8.1887$fL6.37519@news.cpqcorp.net>n  & jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message ...4 >In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>, >u? >Look.  The only reason I'm talking about this stuff is so thata= >people doing current development, maintenance and usage willt< >learn based on my experience.  Do you think this is fucking; >pleasant for me?  Go find something out about people whose  >initials are JMF and TW.u >s  I I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =rJ Tiger Woods?  But I'm not quite sure what it is I'm supposed to be lookingL for.  I don't want to make anything unpleasant for you.   I have no idea who you are.  K >>But there is a constant pitter patter of poison in here that sometimes isr >>hard to take.r > C >They have been reminded of the past because it is happening again.r? >This thread could be predicted because of the fiasco that justi> >happened with Compaq and HP.  Those of us who do know how the4 >OS biz works, can see that HP doesn't do it either. >n  H I'm really not sure what you are saying.  You could predict that someoneL would start this thread?  What was the fiasco with Compaq and HP?  The proxyJ fight with Walter?  What does "HP doesn't do it either" mean?  What aren'tK they doing?  Or should they be doing?  I'm not quite sure what the "OS biz"eL is, or how it works.  I work for someone writing OS code, but the only goingL concerns I know of that might be called "OS biz" are Windows, and Linux (and: Linux sort-of changes the meaning of "biz") - all the rest4 one-way-or-the-other are developed to sell hardware.   >cB >> .. I admit to having said something perhaps inappropriate aboutG >>a *person*, when it was the content of what he said I had the problem. >with. > D >No.  YOu said something very inappropriate to your CUSTOMER.  Then,? >when he objected, pointing out that he was an active customer,p >you said something worse. >M  J Really?  I am simply not going to be drawn into any more of these.  That's allo  J >>So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I can fix it >inhK >>the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate, by turningyL >>off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of "real" >>substance. >>H >>He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help >on... > 2 >He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  L That's OK.  There are others who he can turn to.  But he is always welcome -E as a customer there is almost nothing I won't do to help him sell andrF continue to use VMS - as long as it's legal, it's in my power, and theL company says it's OK.  I have no problem with answering a technical problem,K or forwarding a need to someone else.  Just no interest in debate involvingoF why/how DEC went toes up.  I can't uncancel Jupiter.  I can't uncancel Alpha.     You've exhibited >none in this thread.r  % This thread had no technical content.   )  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.t' >OS experts can read between the lines.o >s  L I defer to you.  I don't claim to be an OS expert.  I think OS's have becomeL far too complex for anyone to claim to be an "OS expert", except in specificE areas, or as a "generalist" for an entire OS.  Don't ask me a cluster I question, or how the lock manager works.  But I can tell you how parts ofyJ the /IO system work, all of the graphics system, a lot of the bootpath andG the console work, how devices are configured, how the low-level guts ofyE Galaxy works, and a smattering of a bunch of other corners where I amuK more-or-less an expert.  And in general I can tell you how most things worklF on the OS I work on, as long as we don't go below the 1st or 2nd levelL details - without some research.  I do belong to SIGOPS - does that make you feel better?   >l< >>which is the primary reason I read this conference anyway. >>I >>BTW - I don't know many "developers" who read these conferences... theynL >>waste too much time.  But I'm certainly glad I'm not someplace where it isI >>acceptable to be beaten ;-)  Of course, I'm not quite sure who emoticon  >is. > B >Beating was the least painful punishment ;-).  If you got JMF and/ >TW pissed off, they could really screw you up.m >s  K Really?  I really am not into physical punishment these days.  I don't know H who JMF is (hmm,  This implies it's not you) or TW is (unless it's TigerG Woods - who I don't want pissed at me) - and I don't want either of youp= pissed at me.  Let me know what I can do to apologize to you.   @ >If you were a den mother and they wanted to play, you might not3 >never be able to login on you stand alone machine.i >  >/BAH  >-  J My daughter isn't in the Girl Scouts.  And when my standalone machine getsJ hacked, I'll be the first one to tell the FBI that I have no idea who JMF,L TW or BAH are.  I'm not looking to somehow get you pissed off.  If you thinkD that somehow HP, Compaq, Mike or Carly are doing something to repeatF history - please let them know.  Because I didn't cancel the DEC20, orI Alpha, or cuase or propose the Compaq merger with DEC or with HP.  I just . write code, and try to keep the wolves at bay.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:06:45 +02004 From: "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> Subject: import usersk< Message-ID: <newscache$9zt1ug$rtc$1@news.emea.compuware.com>  K does anyone know if there is a way to import users from one vms system intodI the sysuaf on another system? As far as I can see authorize does not comeWA with that option and copying the dat file is obviously no option.h   thanks,      Axel Haringa   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:34:20 +0200$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Re: import usersS3 Message-ID: <zn_q8.1869$fL6.37308@news.cpqcorp.net>f  ? "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> wrote in message 6 news:newscache$9zt1ug$rtc$1@news.emea.compuware.com...H > does anyone know if there is a way to import users from one vms system intoK > the sysuaf on another system? As far as I can see authorize does not comemC > with that option and copying the dat file is obviously no option.a >u	 > thanks,. >s >n > Axel Haringa  B You can merge the files pointed to by the logical names sysuaf and
 rightslist   This is detailed in thej OpenVMS Cluster Systems 
 search for% B.1 Building a Common SYSUAF.DAT Filew    ) or you can do, according to circumstancess) def/sys/exec sysuaf sys$system:sysuaf.data6 and when your process wants to access the other sysuaf( def sysuaf alpha1::sys$system:sysuaf.dat   Regardsz   Grard   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:58:57 GMTfL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") Subject: Re: import usersn8 Message-ID: <00A0BF37.09397768@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  K In article <newscache$9zt1ug$rtc$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, "Axel Haringa"l' <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes:a  L >does anyone know if there is a way to import users from one vms system intoJ >the sysuaf on another system? As far as I can see authorize does not come >with that option    True.p  2 > and copying the dat file is obviously no option.  J Why not?  That's how I got from a VAX system disk to an Alpha system disk.  L (If you need to merge multiple SYSUAFs, it's more challenging, but DCL code I for selecting records from one SYSUAF and writing it to another has been MH posted here in the past.  Name and UIC collisions are the big challenge.K Don't forget to copy RIGHSTSLIST entries as well.  If you're sure there aregC no collisions, you could actually use SORT/MERGE and CONVERT/FDL to N (independently) merge SYSUAF.DAT and RIGHTSLIST.DAT.  They are just RMS files, after all.)B   -- Alan   O ===============================================================================h0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210aO ===============================================================================e   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 15:49:24 GMT 3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)s Subject: Re: import usersr0 Message-ID: <a8hsm4$m3c$2@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  s In article <newscache$9zt1ug$rtc$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes:'L >does anyone know if there is a way to import users from one vms system intoJ >the sysuaf on another system? As far as I can see authorize does not comeB >with that option and copying the dat file is obviously no option.  L You would like to merge the users of one system into an existing SYSUAF.DAT?  + You could try something like the following:   $ ANALYZE/RMS/FDL sysuaf.dat.H Then edit sysuaf.dat in which you would like to import. Import the otherJ sysuaf.dat into the editor and append it. Remove such records as SYSTEM or> FIELD from the second file. Then save the merged file and try:2  $ CONVERT/FDL=sysuaf modified.file new_sysuaf.dat   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanni  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 18:04:45 +0200sE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e# Subject: Re: Is AMD doing an Intel?a+ Message-ID: <3CAC799D.58C16B84@mediasec.de>e  D It was three registers on the VAX. Let's ask on the right newsgroup:  I Guys (in the American sense), how many registers is the context of a fork  thread on Alpha VMS?   	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:09:08 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> # Subject: Re: Is AMD doing an Intel?03 Message-ID: <D__q8.1877$fL6.37527@news.cpqcorp.net>o  H I think you get called with R3 and R4 loaded from the fork block, and R5 pointing to the fork block.e  E Jan C. Vorbrggen wrote in message <3CAC799D.58C16B84@mediasec.de>...,E >It was three registers on the VAX. Let's ask on the right newsgroup:s >fJ >Guys (in the American sense), how many registers is the context of a fork >thread on Alpha VMS?B >C > Jant   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 06:50:16 -0800a From: willirl@usa.net (Richard)o- Subject: Re: Java exec env value not working?p= Message-ID: <9dbe34c3.0204040650.6f325cf2@posting.google.com>w   "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in message news:<craig.berry-D00D08.23021802042002@news.directvinternet.com>...r? > In article <9dbe34c3.0204021224.2d59f43e@posting.google.com>, # >  willirl@usa.net (Richard) wrote:  > J > > I need to run a VMS command proc from Java (yes, I know I shouldn't do. > > things like this in Java) Looks like this: > > 
 > >    ...# > >    String env [ ] = {"a = 25"}; = > >    Process p = Runtime.getRuntime.exec ("test.com", env);e > >    p.waitFor ( );e
 > >    ... > > J > > test.com gets run ok but the symbol "a" does not exist there.  Is this > > not the expected behavior? > C > I don't know what the expected behavior is, but are you sure the  E > environment will be implemented as DCL symbols rather than logical  F > names?  I suggest trying SHOW LOGICAL A in test.com to see what you F > get.  In the unlikely event that the implementation has bungled its I > internal lib$spawn call by not passing reasonable flags for inheriting RC > the environment, there is purportedly a way to call RTL routines nI > yourself from java, so you could, for example, call lib$set_logical or bG > lib$set_symbol before instantiating your Runtime object (I mean, um, .G > running your command procedure).  To say more would require actually .1 > reading the java for OpenVMS documentation ;-).h  E WHAT DOCUMENTATION?  All there is is release notes which are nice butrA don't talk much about JNI and dont' mention Runtime calls at all.c    Nope.  Logical not set either.    9 Can't call lib$ or equiv because Java code is not public.y   WillWilliamsosxd   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:16:37 -0600lC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>-- Subject: Re: Java exec env value not working?0H Message-ID: <craig.berry-4903A8.12163704042002@news.directvinternet.com>  = In article <9dbe34c3.0204040650.6f325cf2@posting.google.com>,-!  willirl@usa.net (Richard) wrote:i  I > "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in 3N > message news:<craig.berry-D00D08.23021802042002@news.directvinternet.com>...A > > In article <9dbe34c3.0204021224.2d59f43e@posting.google.com>,w% > >  willirl@usa.net (Richard) wrote:7 > > L > > > I need to run a VMS command proc from Java (yes, I know I shouldn't do0 > > > things like this in Java) Looks like this: > > >  > > >    ...% > > >    String env [ ] = {"a = 25"};n? > > >    Process p = Runtime.getRuntime.exec ("test.com", env);  > > >    p.waitFor ( );o > > >    ... > > > L > > > test.com gets run ok but the symbol "a" does not exist there.  Is this  > > > not the expected behavior?  G > WHAT DOCUMENTATION?  All there is is release notes which are nice butwC > don't talk much about JNI and dont' mention Runtime calls at all.e  I Well, I was really just indicating that *I* hadn't read any docs or even -  looked to see if there were any.  " > Nope.  Logical not set either.   > ; > Can't call lib$ or equiv because Java code is not public.e  H Hmm.  This seems worth a call to the CSC with a small, complete example E with which they can reproduce the problem.  My current guess is that [D java is just invoking the C RTL to do a vfork() and exec(), passing H along the environment vector as the optional third argument to exec().  G I believe (but could be wrong) that this only means something when the oD thing you execute in the subprocess is a C program that accepts the G environment as the optional third argument to the main() function.  If >F that's true I think it is only the C RTL's internal environment array 3 that is affected, not logical names or CLI symbols.   F Have you tried passing something like "pipe a=25 ; @test.com" as your  command argument?l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:19:13 +0200n9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> - Subject: Re: Java exec env value not working?i' Message-ID: <3CAC9921.94CD9694@aaa.com>l  4 If test.com is run in a sub-process, the symbol will6 be local to the sub-process and, of course, be deleted together with the sub-process.  4 Maybe defining a JOB-table logical name would work ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.       H > I need to run a VMS command proc from Java (yes, I know I shouldn't do, > things like this in Java) Looks like this: >m >    ...! >    String env [ ] = {"a = 25"};s; >    Process p = Runtime.getRuntime.exec ("test.com", env);- >    p.waitFor ( );2 >    ... >0H > test.com gets run ok but the symbol "a" does not exist there.  Is this > not the expected behavior?   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:40:57 +0000 (UTC)4 From: lewisspamnot@lumina.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)- Subject: Re: Java exec env value not working?e. Message-ID: <a8i6np$r6g$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  ~ willirl@usa.net (Richard) writes in article <9dbe34c3.0204040650.6f325cf2@posting.google.com> dated 4 Apr 2002 06:50:16 -0800: >"Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in message news:<craig.berry-D00D08.23021802042002@news.directvinternet.com>...@ >> In article <9dbe34c3.0204021224.2d59f43e@posting.google.com>,$ >>  willirl@usa.net (Richard) wrote: >>  K >> > I need to run a VMS command proc from Java (yes, I know I shouldn't don/ >> > things like this in Java) Looks like this:  >> >   >> >    ...-$ >> >    String env [ ] = {"a = 25"};> >> >    Process p = Runtime.getRuntime.exec ("test.com", env);  <     Process p = Runtime.getRuntime().exec ("test.com", env);   >> >    p.waitFor ( ); >> >    ...  >> > hK >> > test.com gets run ok but the symbol "a" does not exist there.  Is thiso >> > not the expected behavior?a > F >WHAT DOCUMENTATION?  All there is is release notes which are nice butB >don't talk much about JNI and dont' mention Runtime calls at all.  F My guess is that Java calls the DEC C setenv() function, which sets anH "environment variable" in a place that only C can read -- pretty uselessJ IMHO.  And it isn't passed to any kind of created process.  This is a caseK where the working Unix code compiles fine on VMS but operates incorrectly. e< It's easy to see how it could get by Compaq's VMS Java team.  L The DEC C getenv() isn't too hot either.  It reads a copy of the symbols andF logicals which is loaded into C space at image start time, so it won'tF notice a change unless the change is made by setenv().  I wrote my own getenv() for that reason.h  I The good news is that VMS Java *might* use DECC$SHR for those functions.  E I wonder if you could rewrite getenv() and setenv() and put them in a.K shareable image that replaces DECC$SHR.EXE without re-implementing 98 otherc C runtime functions.    D IIRC there's an old version of the C compiler which used the logicalJ name table for all this.  If you install the RTL from that you might get aL reasonable behavior; otherwise you just need to wait for Compaq to fix this.  : >Can't call lib$ or equiv because Java code is not public.  7 And that would defeat Java's platform-independance too.e  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgo> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 06:39:06 -0800 % From: mb301@hotmail.com (Mark Bowman)h Subject: LANCP ERROR MESSAGE= Message-ID: <1d08b916.0204040639.2774d24f@posting.google.com>    OpenVMS V6.2-1H3  # LANCP> TRIG NODE WR2998/DEVICE=EWA0m& %LANCP-F-BADPARAM, bad parameter value> -LANCP-I-OTHERAPP, Another application may be using the device   Who is the other application?t   Regardsi   Mark   LANCP> show device ewa0 " Device Listing, volatile database:  	    Devicet	    ------n    EWA0o   LANCP> show device ewa0/mop   " Device Listing, volatile database:?               --- MOP Downline Load Service Characteristics ---wB    Device     State   Access Mode      Clients           Data SizeB    ------     -----   -----------      -------           ---------C    EWA0      Enabled  NoExclusive  KnownClientsOnly       246 bytess   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 12:28:14 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)'M Subject: Re: Language support on Itanium VMS (was: Announcing a boot contest) 3 Message-ID: <YnclcVciED0M@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <rdeininger-0304021955080001@1cust61.tnt6.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:o > , > Where are these statements, if you please?  K    I didn't memorize the URL, but IIRC they were off the www.compaq.com/hpsO    page.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:24:19 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ! Subject: Re: Macro-64 and Vax VMSb; Message-ID: <PBXq8.15105$iU6.2503525@news20.bellglobal.com>i  L MACRO-32 (for VAX) didn't require a license. MACRO-64 (for Alpha) required a$ license for a while but is now free.  > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html#macro64  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/r    8 "Mark Gutzwiller" <markg@earthling.net> wrote in message' news:3CA49295.E983503D@earthling.net...  > X-No-archive: yes  >nI > I'm sure this question is answered someplace in the VMS FAQ, but I justl > overlooked it. >uB > I am the proud owner of a VAX 3100-80 (MicroVAX VMS 6.1) system. >eJ > The hobbyist license includes MACRO-64. To me, this seems to be an Alpha
 > program. > J > So my questions are: Is it an Alpha only license, and question #2, if it+ > is, how can I get a VAX MACRO-32 license?a >w > I have the CSD's to July '94.a > ? > So point me to the right place in the FAQ, and I'll be happy.i >w > --8 > Never trust any statistics, which you did not falsify. >d >f   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:45:25 +0100s( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>" Subject: Re: Memory Channel vs. CI) Message-ID: <3CAC12A5.1738C6F1@127.0.0.1>d   Bart Zorn wrote: >  > Nic Clews wrote:  J > > Now there is an interesting thing. I've always felt DSSI keeps gettingJ > > overlooked for no good reason, OK, so it's not the hottest and latest,E > > but it's respectable, and you can get PCI DSSI for Alphas and the-? > > reasonably popular 4xxx series of VAX have DSSI 'embedded'.  > F > Remember that newer Alpha's (I know the ES40 doesn't), don't supportB > DSSI disks from the console. Therefore, you can't boot from DSSI > connected disks.  G Good point. In fact my DEC 2000 with its EISA DSSI card can't boot overi DSSI either.  : Anyone chucking an AS 1000 or similar away in the UK ? :-) -- u( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:01:55 +0200-E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>h" Subject: Re: Memory Channel vs. CI+ Message-ID: <3CAC2493.529AFB05@mediasec.de>t  K > > 'scuse me - 100 000 cycles latency for exchanging a simple lock requeste > > over shared memory!?F > The request has to be put into the form of an SCS message and passedB > through the SCS and port driver code once on each end, into lockE > manager code on the lock master node, and then the response must go H > out via a message through SCS and the port driver code on each node on > the way back.i  G I'm aware of that. But that means that the SCS stack has a lot of fixed M overhead (because lock messages are small). Surely a target for optimization,uL and a high-priority one at that - it means that you can't do more that about> a thousand lock messages per second before saturating the CPU!  D > Note that in theory, with Galaxy technology, one might conceivablyF > just put the lock manager data structures in shared memory where allB > nodes could access it, instead of having SCS messages fly around > between nodes.  G I had thought this has already been implemented, it must be high on thefE to-do list (see above). You'll want some extra care, because the mostgB simplistic way will introduce a localized single point of failure.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:06:46 -0500y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Memory Channel vs. CIK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0404020706460001@1cust219.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>A  3 In article <3CAC12A5.1738C6F1@127.0.0.1>, Nic ClewsD <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:S   >Bart Zorn wrote:t >> < >> Nic Clews wrote:1 >wK >> > Now there is an interesting thing. I've always felt DSSI keeps gettingsK >> > overlooked for no good reason, OK, so it's not the hottest and latest, F >> > but it's respectable, and you can get PCI DSSI for Alphas and the@ >> > reasonably popular 4xxx series of VAX have DSSI 'embedded'. >>  G >> Remember that newer Alpha's (I know the ES40 doesn't), don't support C >> DSSI disks from the console. Therefore, you can't boot from DSSIt >> connected disks.b >DH >Good point. In fact my DEC 2000 with its EISA DSSI card can't boot over
 >DSSI either.t  G I think all these are cases of lack of PCD - Perceived Customer Demand.   J VMS does have the third-party boot mechanism available, so boot support inI the console is not strictly required.  You can build minimal boot driverst@ for most any device, and put them on a device the console _does_E understand (floppy, CD, network) and Bob's your uncle.  This is still=G non-trivial work, but at least you don't have to muck around inside theA
 console code.   G I doubt anyone sane would attempt this without the source listings kit,56 and that _might_ not have quite enough of the details.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 09:27:00 -0800=1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)-" Subject: Re: Memory Channel vs. CI= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0204040926.16ae883d@posting.google.com>a  e Jan C. Vorbrggen <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message news:<3CAC2493.529AFB05@mediasec.de>...sM > > > 'scuse me - 100 000 cycles latency for exchanging a simple lock requestm > > > over shared memory!?H > > The request has to be put into the form of an SCS message and passedD > > through the SCS and port driver code once on each end, into lockG > > manager code on the lock master node, and then the response must go J > > out via a message through SCS and the port driver code on each node on > > the way back.o > I > I'm aware of that. But that means that the SCS stack has a lot of fixeddO > overhead (because lock messages are small). Surely a target for optimization,rN > and a high-priority one at that - it means that you can't do more that about@ > a thousand lock messages per second before saturating the CPU!  E My tests were doing lock requests sequentially and synchronously from-E a single process, one right after the other.  So only one node of theI= two is really busy at a given time.  So I don't think you canmB extrapolate my results to overall lock throughput.  Verell Boaen'sF tests of cluster interconnects are closer, since they include SCS codeA overhead in sending small messages (simulating lock requests) but E exclude the lock manager code itself, and he did multi-threaded tests ? as well as single-stream, to more closely simulate a multi-user E environment.  See http://vmsone.com/dfwdays/Presentations/Boaen_1.PPTr. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 05:28:56 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) H Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest3 Message-ID: <qVgpAL77+XR5@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  e In article <3CABCDB4.F908934@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes:t > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  D >> Perhaps you have me confused with someone who enables JavaScript.9 >> I though you had been around this newsgroup longer :-)b > A > Sheesh, you people are supposed to "know" what you are doing :)c > 8 > It is not javascript.. for a non corporate test go to: > $ > http://www.spacelots.com/test.html > H > It won't do anything, just demonstrate drop-down lists... and there is+ > no submit button so it won't go anywhere.-   That text says:0  I > This will demonstrate the use of typing a charcter in a drop-down list.e > D > Click on the drop down box, then type the letter you want. It will> > automatically "jump" to that letter... it is not Javascript  > it is plain old html.s  ? So I click once on the drop down list that currently says "--".o  A It expands to a full drop down list showing the alphabet preceded>C by "--".  I type the letter "g" and it collapses the drop down list  and is again displaying "--".k  > This happens on both Internet Explorer 4.5 (0408) and Netscape5 Communicator 4.75-20000815 both running on MacOS 8.6.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 11:29:20 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)cH Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest3 Message-ID: <93aZ3T$9AASg@eisner.encompasserve.org>x  f In article <3CAC8926.6B6553BB@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes:  G > My point was that it is not Javascript, which is very useful to those G > who need to program to the mass of CI, who can barely type their nametH > and generally can't follow instructions.   I have had to use Javascipt9 > to prevent users from entering dates like Feb 31, 2002.  > J > But the funtionality is not always just for form validation, I have alsoH > used it to fetch data from a database (Rdb none-the-less) and populateG > certain other fields. Then there is also the "hacker/spammer" uses of G > javascript which we won't get into here as it is a fruitless rathole.C  E The previous example I saw was using JavaScript to prevent easy entrykE of state names.  Your example has show that easy entry of state namesc, can also be prevented without JavaScript :-)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:42:09 -0400  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.comY Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest         for Openm4 Message-ID: <C2256B91.0055C972.00@jklh22.valmet.com>  
 Thank you.L I did not think any Indonesian islands were involved, but what do I know....        3 rdeininger@mindspring.com on 04/04/2002 07:10:13 AMt  + Please respond to rdeininger@mindspring.com.   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.coms cc: M Subject:  Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest forn       OpenVMS on Intel)e      @ In article <3CABCDB4.F908934@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin# <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:e    @ >Sheesh, you people are supposed to "know" what you are doing :) > 7 >It is not javascript.. for a non corporate test go to:  >.# >http://www.spacelots.com/test.html5 >nG >It won't do anything, just demonstrate drop-down lists... and there is * >no submit button so it won't go anywhere.  E If I click the drop-down box and then type a letter, the drop-own boxs, closes, and the "--" item is still selected.   So "Boo" yourself.  :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:10:13 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on I K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0404020710130001@1cust219.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>J  @ In article <3CABCDB4.F908934@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin# <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:h    @ >Sheesh, you people are supposed to "know" what you are doing :) >i7 >It is not javascript.. for a non corporate test go to:s > # >http://www.spacelots.com/test.html  >iG >It won't do anything, just demonstrate drop-down lists... and there iss* >no submit button so it won't go anywhere.  E If I click the drop-down box and then type a letter, the drop-own boxs, closes, and the "--" item is still selected.   So "Boo" yourself.  :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:11:02 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>dY Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest for OpenVMS on I-2 Message-ID: <3CAC8926.6B6553BB@firstdbasource.com>  ! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:? >  > Thank you.N > I did not think any Indonesian islands were involved, but what do I know.... > 5 > rdeininger@mindspring.com on 04/04/2002 07:10:13 AMs > - > Please respond to rdeininger@mindspring.com, >  > To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comt > cc:uO > Subject:  Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest ford >       OpenVMS on Intel)  > B > In article <3CABCDB4.F908934@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin% > <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:  > B > >Sheesh, you people are supposed to "know" what you are doing :) > >t9 > >It is not javascript.. for a non corporate test go to:. > > % > >http://www.spacelots.com/test.htmla > >sI > >It won't do anything, just demonstrate drop-down lists... and there is-, > >no submit button so it won't go anywhere. > G > If I click the drop-down box and then type a letter, the drop-own box:. > closes, and the "--" item is still selected. >  > So "Boo" yourself.  :-)r    7 Hmmm.. works in Netscape 4.7, IE 5 and 6 on the PeeCee.cE Lynx (Linux and OpenVMS) and Netscape 4.7 on Linux makes you click on0E the actual value to select.  So, what we have learned today, boys andeE girls, is that not every programmer uses the same techniques on everytB platform.  Meaning that OpenVMS, Mac and Linux programmers program; differently than those that program to the mass of computereG illiterates.  Can we also deduce, that just because it has a particulart= Name and version, that the sources may actually be different.-  E My point was that it is not Javascript, which is very useful to thosenE who need to program to the mass of CI, who can barely type their nameeF and generally can't follow instructions.   I have had to use Javascipt7 to prevent users from entering dates like Feb 31, 2002.   H But the funtionality is not always just for form validation, I have alsoF used it to fetch data from a database (Rdb none-the-less) and populateE certain other fields. Then there is also the "hacker/spammer" uses of E javascript which we won't get into here as it is a fruitless rathole." --   Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163s7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com  Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)V 704-236-4377 (Mobile)c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:34:16 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it8 Message-ID: <2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  L >I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints.  VAX/VMS propelled us to #2, >not the 10/20.o  D As I'm a former TOPS-20 system manager and a current VMS one I'm not> sure why you feel more qualified to tell me I'm wrong. In 1980@ virtually every self respecting computer science school ran someB flavour of ten or twenty and these systems were extremely popular.C Maybe half of the UK TOPS-10/20 sites moved to VAX/VMS and the restjF were lost mainly to Unix. Over the years the remainder have almost allD drifted away to non Digital/Compaq systems. How the hell can you sayE that the period where DEC went from around number one in education toh5 near the bottom of the pile was the most successful? o  F Unlike some I like what VMS grew into. And yes I do still miss commandE recognition and completion but why shouldn't I? And why should I have D to listen to you criticize me, a customer, for still asking for it.?D DCL is a functional command processor. But PCL/MIC enhanced EXEC wasE functional and *sexy*. I don't think anyone would ever call DCL sexy.s  ? DEC did little to smooth a TOPS-20 > VMS migration. Bell's notek< indicates he seemed to think making COBOL,, FORTRAN and DBMSF compatible was enough.. If you didn't believe there was far more to anE OS than this you wouldn't likely be working in VMS engineering today.a  E Go have a look at an Arpanet HOSTS.TXT file from 1980 and look at theiE domination of DEC machines. Something went wrong and there were many,-@ many factors, but to dismiss the reasoning put forward by PDP-10B admins of the time who watched it all at close quarters, just like) that, puts you in a bad light in my view.n  8 "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet" - Digital UCX V1 documentation.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:30:04 +0200<E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <3CAC2B2C.C06FBF07@mediasec.de>   N > You're comparing apples and oranges.  The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, whileN > the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC.  And as I was there for theL > period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* begin aroundN > the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier or later,H > but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal. > upper-level management rot by several years.   "latter date" meaning 1987?.  L I found most interesting in the memo that in early 1979, it expected to haveH by early 1982 an LSI (chip technology)-based VAX system board at under aJ thousand bucks. That never happened, and later on the smaller systems were' overpriced compared to the competition.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:03:08 +0200oE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>t2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <3CAC32EC.BD368871@mediasec.de>r  J > > I'm just addressing the myth that "because intel made the 386 run fastK > > anyone can make anything run fast". There's two problems with that: themK > > one I noted in my second paragraph and you had commented on, that Intel L > > isn't "anyone"; and the more important part that people still don't seemM > > to understand, which is that for all its obvious and horrid flaws the x86@B > > architecture is better designed to accept '90s-era performance= > > enhancements than any classic CISC like the VAX or 68000.t > - > Rubbish.  Your previous was also inaccuratel  L Rubbish yourself. Read John Mashey's post on the really relevant differencesL between RISC and CISC, and you'll see that Peter's hit the mark. Or read theL paper from DEC on the NVAX/NVAX+ microarchitecture, and you'll also see that the above is quite true.  M On this count, BTW, S/370 is also mostly more of a RISC than a CISC, about ino the same league as x86.'   	Jan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:28:00 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <a8hel5$pin$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,  3 In article <6AFq8.1810$fL6.36945@news.cpqcorp.net>,r9    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:2 >zczc5 >0H >Arrrrrgh!!!n   Whoever (Alan) the h*ll keeps writing these d*mned troll >messages... >M >r" >PLEASE STOP IT!  PLEASE STOP NOW! >. >AJ >Do we HAVE to keep getting into these idiotic rehashing of hurt feelings  ofI >TOPS-20 users from 20 years ago?  Now we'll have 300 replies complainingn& >about the lack of command completion. > I >The original message in this topic was STUPID enough.  What exactly was   theo >need to spam alt.sys.pdp10? >t7 >STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP    <snip>  7 Since you're in ZKO you might read it and _LEARN_!!!!  f: Take a look at the problems the PDP10 group has had w.r.t.3 bits and info lost, and work on closing the window.a   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:37:26 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.coms2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <a8hf6s$pin$2@bob.news.rcn.net>t  3 In article <IzKq8.1832$fL6.37221@news.cpqcorp.net>,w9    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:s" >Mark Crispin wrote in message ...% >>On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, JF Mezei wrote:m >>> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K >>> > I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints.  VAX/VMS propelled us g to >#2, >>> > not the 10/20.H >>> Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2  down
 >to oblivion.  >>@ >>So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >>Kleinsorge's postings. >> >eF >Get a life.  I didn't do anything.  I'm sorry you are still pissed a  coupleG >decades later.  You have made it clear that VAX/VMS was the proximate h cause.I >of the death of TOPS-20 - and thus have no interest or positive opinionsNI >about VMS.  If there was *anything* I could say that would cause you to > buylJ >a VMS system. I'd... well.  whatever.  The simple truth is, regardless ofG >the reasons for killing the DEC-20, it was meaningless to the eventualoJ >success and subsequent failure of DEC.  DEC grew to #2 on the strength ofK >VAX/VMS, and then imploded for many reasons, each of which can create it'smJ >own debate.  But DEC was growing so fast on the strength of VAX/VMS, that >the DEC-20 became irrelevant.  A You should take those rose colored glasses off.  Who do you think  bought those VAX/VMS systems?P   /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 09:47:29 GMTn From: jmfbahciv@aol.comu2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <a8hfpn$pin$3@bob.news.rcn.net>_  3 In article <dLKq8.1833$fL6.37336@news.cpqcorp.net>,.9    "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:h> >JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAB74BE.6FC24F45@videotron.ca>... >>Mark Crispin wrote:sI >>> > Ironic that deemphasizing VMS has resulted in Digital going from #2o >down to oblivion. >>>-B >>> So did the public attitudes of Digital employees, such as Fred >>> Kleinsorge's postings. >>K >>For as much as Mr Kleinsorge hates me, I do not think that he can be made9 >>responsible for VMS's demise.  >> >.J >I don't hate you.  I'm annoyed that with you and a few others there is no >room for anything positive. >eK >>Sure, we may have liked to see the VMS engineers mount an internal revoltr >andJ >>chain themselves to cover Curly's parking spot and make as much noise asI >>possible to outline the stupidity of Compaq squandering Alpha and VMS. o But  >ifaJ >>these guys are told not to worry and that everything is being taken care >of,K >>then the motivation to risk your job by rebelling against the corporationo >just  >>isn't there. >> >tK >If chaining myself to a CEO's leg would make any difference, I would have.sG >The only leverage VMS has is that A) it is profitable, and B) it sellst >Alphas and eventually IA64s.o  A Yes.  However, customers who know how to read the tea leaves are oC switching to a product line that they know will continue.  And nonel/ of that money is going to Compaq's VMS coffers.   < You're losing your core customers.  When you lose university> customers, you're not only losing today's revenue but the next: 50 year's revenue because the kiddies are learning on your% competitor's soft/hardware platforms.n   /BAH <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:01:47 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it3 Message-ID: <f7Zq8.1862$fL6.37425@news.cpqcorp.net>    Doc wrote in message ...3 >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:28:45 -0500, Fred Kleinsorges <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>- > wrote:, >> yet-another-one-of-these-useless-threads. >>I >> Not a single one of these inane dissertations that were spammed acrosssK >> groups that included alt.sys.pdp10 had any other objective than to wasteaI >> peoples time, and continue some 20 year old argument that isn't reallyu evenJ >> interesting anymore, no matter how many peoples feelings were hurt that$ >> there pet architecture was tubed. >aH >  As a completely distanced bystander, I have to interject here.  In anD >earlier post you claimed that this "troll" would attract 300 posts.H >Whether or not the 20-year argument is *productive* may be in question,; >but you yourself have proved pretty conclusively that it'sg >*interesting*.e  L It is like debating religion or politics.  It can be interesting, but seldomK satisfying, and nobody ever changes their minds.  It just wastes bandwidth. K If at *least* they would use "OT" in the title so it would be automaticallyu killed by my normal filter.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:46:47 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itB Message-ID: <Xr%q8.185892$7b.18715643@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messagen% news:3CAC2B2C.C06FBF07@mediasec.de...eJ > > You're comparing apples and oranges.  The VAX/VMS era started in 1978, whileSL > > the 36-bit line was declared dying in 1983 IIRC.  And as I was there for the G > > period 1976 - 1987, I can assure you that DEC's decline *did* beginL aroundI > > the latter date (reasonable arguments could place it a bit earlier ors later,J > > but not much), even though DEC's financial decline lagged the internal0 > > upper-level management rot by several years. >a > "latter date" meaning 1987?s  L Sorry for the ambiguous antecedent:  the 'latter date' referred to was 1983.J By 1987, the writing was on the wall for the rest of the world to see - asJ evidenced by the fact that, unlike most of the rest of the market, the DECF stock price never came close to recovering from the October '87 crash.   - bill   >iI > I found most interesting in the memo that in early 1979, it expected to  haveJ > by early 1982 an LSI (chip technology)-based VAX system board at under aL > thousand bucks. That never happened, and later on the smaller systems were) > overpriced compared to the competition.  >r > Jans >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:25:54 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>" Subject: Re: RAM for MicroVAX 3300) Message-ID: <3CAC0E12.FED550F1@127.0.0.1>p   Dennis Grevenstein wrote:R  9 > Can RAM from a VAX 4000-200 be used in a MicroVAX 3300?t7 > I could get the parts from a 4000/200, but I was toldh- > that the DSSI module on the CPU was broken.n; > There would be no problem, if the 4000/200 still netboots < > without DSSI, but if it's dead I would like to put the RAM > in a 3300.  H I'm reasonably sure you can though I have not tried it. The 4200 was theH last system AFAIK that had the bit of ribbon cable between processor andE the memory cards. I'd imagine the specification of the 4200 memory isuD close enough that it would work on the 3300 system, the only wrinkleA being if it can support the size of each board or the total size.   C One thing you may want to consider is that the specification of thewF ribbon cable may be different, e.g. MVII ribbon is different from thatD of a 3900 even though they appear to be a plug for plug fit. I don'tH know at what processor level that spec came in, but typically you'll getH memory errors of you have the wrong cable although your system may boot.  E This is *not* a statement of compatibility, if you swap them and they1H break, then don't blame me! If I were in your situation, I'd try it, but( then it would be my money and not yours. --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:13:19 +0200fE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>hG Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacksi+ Message-ID: <3CAC273F.EFB99C3D@mediasec.de>   J > Is 100% sure that all VMS compilers will generate code that enable thoseF > protections, notably a program's inability to modify its own code or3 > inability to execute code residing on the stack ?n  L Two comments: First, only the C compiler need apply, because that's what theL TCPIP code is presumably written in. Secondly, that doesn't matter: the pageL protections are set by the image activitator, and the stack is not language-	 specific.d   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:14:17 +0200VE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>pG Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attackse+ Message-ID: <3CAC2779.B0CFCA2E@mediasec.de>w  E I thought I had read that current Alpha processors allow, but do not l implement fault-on-execute?n   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:20:47 +0200i9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> G Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks.' Message-ID: <3CAC28FF.3C19A12F@aaa.com>s  8 Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs.: This is how Rdb runs it's queries. A dynamic SQL statement8 is converted on-the-fly into machine code, which then is executed to run the query. s   Jan-Erik Sderholm.n   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 05:46:17 -0800t1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)d% Subject: Re: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!e= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0204040546.4244e635@posting.google.com>    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A0BEC2.C0FA630A@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...K > I think we could complain about the DS10L not actually running VMS, if weo > wanted to.  N The DS10L is a 1U server, and it runs VMS.  You must be thinking of the DS20L.. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:53:26 GMTaL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")% Subject: Re: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!o8 Message-ID: <00A0BF36.4449E7A3@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  q In article <cf15391e.0204040546.4244e635@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:u >winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A0BEC2.C0FA630A@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...lL >> I think we could complain about the DS10L not actually running VMS, if we
 >> wanted to.l > O >The DS10L is a 1U server, and it runs VMS.  You must be thinking of the DS20L.n  L Oops.  My mistake.  Thanks for the correction.  I musta been thinking of the DS20L.   -- Alanx    O ===============================================================================a0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056rM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210eO ===============================================================================p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:04:07 +0200. From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@aster.si>0 Subject: Strange behaviour of telnet connections/ Message-ID: <%KTq8.2359$a%.78381@news.siol.net>d   Hi,e  B I just observe very odd behaviour when I try to establish a telnet connection to host.l   Configuration:   clustertB 2 x ES45, 4GB RAM, OpenVMS V7.3 all current ECOs, TCP/IP V5.1 ECO3	 2 x DS20Er  G When I try to establish a telnet connection to one of the ES45 I get antJ endless string of one random character  for example Y or a or blank or ...H All other nodes are unafected by this and Decnet works fine but ethernetJ bandwidth is totaly consumed by users trying to establish telnet sessions., Direct IO for this connections is VERY HIGH,  $ Is someone observed this situatuion?  B The only way to resolve this was to reboot this particular system.   best regards, Gorazd Kikelju       --4 ----------------------------------------------------
 Gorazd Kikelj? OpenVMS system support Aster d.o.o. e-mail: gorazd.kikelj@aster.si www:  www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:30:10 +0100m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n6 Subject: Re: TCPIP: no new default route when IP is ON8 Message-ID: <957oauohqnjdhnk5v3rbld4hm571221klt@4ax.com>  / On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:00:54 GMT, Tim Llewellyn ' <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:y   >  >h% >??? I thought Bob was a builder :-).  >m? >I sincerely hope most of you are mystified by this as it meanst( >Bob The Builder hasn't escaped the UK !  E When in Dallas last week I spotted Bob the Builder toys on sale rightwE next to the Tellytubbies. Luckily they haven't yet suffered a Bob the  Builder single at Number One.e  a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:36:16 -0500, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com>/ Subject: Telnet sessions randomly disconnectingo/ Message-ID: <uap3h6bftvgu82@corp.supernews.com>e  	 Hello allR  & OpenVMS V7.3 (Alpha), TCP/IP V5.1 eco3  < From time to time, Telnet sessions (using virtual terminals)8 seem to randomly disconnect - not location specific - it9 happens with sessions on the local LAN as well as some onn the WAN.  : Will changing the /DELAY_ACK attribute of the TCP protocolE help in this situation?  I seem to recall a thread on this topic some  time ago....   Anybody else experiencing this?    tiae Scottu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:39:03 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan... 8 Message-ID: <5k7oau44rs1ofivoi31538aabchcehos51@4ax.com>  2 On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:09:46 +0200, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote:n  
 >System 1032?d  F System 1032 grew from System 1022 a TOPS-10/20 database. The name 1022B may have come from the serial number of the PDP-10 on which it wasD developed. Circa 1980 1022 documentation contained examples in whichB the TOPS-10 system clearly identified itself as serial number 1022? during a login. Either the output was edited or 1022 was a realt machine used for development.u  / When ported to VMS the name was changed to 1032   P >Is this a late aprilfool joke? I'm doing VMS support since 1982. I heard of DECO >Rdb, DEC DBMS, Oracle, Sybase and Informix (and I may forgot one or two) but IoO >never heard of System 1032. What is the name of the editor? Did they ever sellf >in Europe?v >s >D.h >i >Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote:e >> e >> Ahem.    Three. >> 9J >> System 1032 has been running on [Open]VMS since the original VAX 11/780 >> days (1984-ish)..   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 07:18:10 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)C' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan...t3 Message-ID: <GzKxiZLXpMlj@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  ` In article <5k7oau44rs1ofivoi31538aabchcehos51@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:4 > On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:09:46 +0200, Didier Morandi! > <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote:  >  >>System 1032? > H > System 1032 grew from System 1022 a TOPS-10/20 database. The name 1022D > may have come from the serial number of the PDP-10 on which it wasF > developed. Circa 1980 1022 documentation contained examples in whichD > the TOPS-10 system clearly identified itself as serial number 1022A > during a login. Either the output was edited or 1022 was a real  > machine used for development.   G I presume the former, since I always though the name meant the softwaretH was suitable for (PDP)tens and (DECsystem)twenties too.  Ten-Twenty-too.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:46:23 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan...gD Message-ID: <POYq8.835$TN1.783@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  L No offense intended when I wrote what I did. I was trying (unsuccessfully itK seems) to point out that almost all 'widely-used' commercial RDBMS products1# are no longer available on OpenVMS.   H Who knows, maybe Palmer has a side-deal with Ellison when he sold Rdb atH fire-sale pricing...."Larry, do me a favor. Slowly kill/price out of theL market Oracle and Rdb on VMS so I can have an excuse to kill Alpha, VMS, and< Digital Unix. We really should only be selling NT on Intel."  2 Nah. Palmer wasn't that sly - dumb, yes...sly, no.    * <Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com> wrote in message; news:OF2F45A211.A7B0B04E-ON85256B90.006AC83D@cca-int.com...p' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:o > E > > The one other thing that will kill VMS if Compaq/HP doesn't do itrE > > first is that now there is are only two commercially viable RDBMSzD > > that are sold to run on VMS, Rdb and Oracle, both sold by Oracle5 > > Corp. Sybase has killed their ASE product on VMS.  >h > Ahem.    Three.r >sI > System 1032 has been running on [Open]VMS since the original VAX 11/780sE > days (1984-ish).   We've continued to operate on all VAXen & AlphasXK > (running VMS) ever since.   (Had one customer running for years and years ( > on a 725 - never wanted to upgrade...) >IJ > We may not have the marketing arms that Oracle does, but like VMS, S1032  > just runs and runs and runs... >iK > (Someday I'll have the right context to use my S1032@Digital story, but In& > don't think I'm quite there, yet...) >e= > p.s.  Kerry?  Can I get on the 'recommended software' list?V >  > -Tym Stegner > S1032 Supports >a >o >h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:37:35 +0200nI From: Jeff Tichafambanai Munyaradzi <Jeffrey.Mutonho@softwarefutures.com>s# Subject: using the  sqlca structureo2 Message-ID: <3CAC490F.1060406@softwarefutures.com>  H How does one use the sqlca structure to get the table name (or the SQL) 6 that caused problem in a program that uses Pro*C/C++ ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:49:55 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>q' Subject: Re: using the  sqlca structure"2 Message-ID: <3CAC5A03.7442D9B4@firstdbasource.com>  $ Jeff Tichafambanai Munyaradzi wrote: > I > How does one use the sqlca structure to get the table name (or the SQL)z8 > that caused problem in a program that uses Pro*C/C++ ?    = First, one must provide a little more information than this. s  ' Looks like you are using Oracle 7/8/9?     Rdb uses SQLCA as well.i Which database?I Which Version? Example code?  What are you trying to do?  D I do not believe that information detail is available in the SQLCA. ? Unless the Oracle Oracle SQLCA is different from the Rdb SQLCA.e   I found this site to be useful:n  M http://storacle.princeton.edu:9001/oracle8-doc/server.805/a58233/err.htm#3385   ' This describes the SQLCA and it's uses.t -- l Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com  Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)v 704-236-4377 (Mobile)b   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:51:25 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"). Subject: Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation8 Message-ID: <00A0BEF2.EDA5943A@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ` In article <3CABC92A.5000300@wasd.vsm.com.au>, Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:oR >> "and Bob's your uncle!" is an Anglicism that means "and you're all set" or "andM >> it should work now" or even "et voila!".  A semi-obsolete Americanism withe@ >> the same general meaning would be "and you're in like Flynn!" >tO >Now we'd all like to hear your explanation of the etymology of this phrase :^)d  M I knew I was going to get in trouble with that one, but very well - although 0 of course you already know.s  N I think that, for those who aren't historically minded (regrettably a categoryM into which most Americans fit), the referent had become as meaningless as thes/ "Bob" in "Bob's your uncle" by the early 1970s.d  L It did indeed originally refer to the frequent and various sexual encountersJ of Errol Flynn, who was a duellist on-screen and a swordsman off, and who F got into enormous trouble after one partner turned out to be underage.  ! >BTW. Flynn was an Australian ;^)o  K I've read his autobiography.  He doesn't sound either proud or happy about i9 being enshrined in etymology.  Entertaining book, though.e   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210tO ===============================================================================o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:48:00 +0000  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com. Subject: Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation: Message-ID: <OFA6245498.B7A66C8C-ON00256B91.004646C2@btyp>   Really?l   I thought he was Tasmanian!-   ;^Da   Steve S         C Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> on 04/04/2002 03:31:54 AMR    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc: H From:      Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>, 4 April 2002, 3:31            a.m.j  % Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstationn    * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:I > "and Bob's your uncle!" is an Anglicism that means "and you're all set"S or "and G > it should work now" or even "et voila!".  A semi-obsolete Americanism  with? > the same general meaning would be "and you're in like Flynn!"i  J Now we'd all like to hear your explanation of the etymology of this phrase :^)o    BTW. Flynn was an Australian ;^)            F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message haseG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,f$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedeK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.r  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.   I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:35:19 +0200w From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>! Subject: Wanted: the VMS pedigreet& Message-ID: <3CAC8ED7.5080101@home.nl>  B On the wall of the corridor of our office my Unix colleagues have E sticked the pedigree of today's Unix versions (Tru64, Solaris, HP UX SA etc.) It looks a bit like the drawing of a very big railway yard.'  H Of course we can't stay behind, and I would like to add the pedigree of H VMS. Can anyone supply me with dates, products etc. ? Of course I would I also like to know the names of products on the side-tracks, for instance n2 DOS-11 > MS-Dos,  MS-Dos + VMS > Win-NT etc. :-) .  < I suppose it will be a bit shorter, but it would look nice .   Regards,   Dirk   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 09:16:49 +0100b( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>Y Subject: Re: White paper now avaialble - Total Cost of Ownership for Enterprise Class Clun) Message-ID: <3CAC0BF1.176FD002@127.0.0.1>n  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > How very dissapointing.u > = > This is just a rehash of the origional OpenVMS TCO analysisiC > which was trashed last time comprehensively and sadly it uses the $ > same technique to prove its point. [snip]  F I can't really comment on how you've derived your calculations, or howF it was performed for the TCO study, but it is a _commercial_fact_ that? it takes us, as a company, far less resource to manage X of VMSbD clusters, than X of UNIX (including a large number of Sun) systems /	 clusters.V  @ So much so, we've lent some of our cross trained resource to the appropriate department.e  H Commercial fact, not whitepaper. The only thing you can say is it's good for job security.s  7 > Divide the results of technique 1 with the results ofe8 > technique 2 to produce conclusive evidence of whatever; > you like. Multiply them together if you like, square themo+ > and divide by 5, the answer is always 42.o  = Well we agree on something, the DVD release of HHGTG is fullyt recommended. -- s( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:15:45 +0200oE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>r1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...-+ Message-ID: <3CAC35E1.7B046067@mediasec.de>u  N  > Would it be fair to state that a new customer would not likely invest in anL > EV7 "wildfire" class system ($million) for a new VMS installation, knowingM > that it would be a short term solution, needing another port in a couple of 	 > years ?:  I Whoever buys any Alpha-based system now has a clearer path forward on VMSAH than on Unix, that much is clear I would say. Don't tell me porting fromA one Unix to another is any easier than from VMS to anything else.e   	Jan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 02 10:12:04 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.comd1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ... + Message-ID: <a8hh7q$pin$6@bob.news.rcn.net>_  8 In article <ua6mauso95vper2b6t2akfi7gsusc8g362@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:56 >On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 03:28:43 GMT, "David J. Dachtera" ><djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:A >n >pJ >>...and at 20+ years, I believe that would constitute O.S.-cide, not justH >>another spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp exercising her5 >>"right" to attack and destroy a defenseless unborn.t >nF >20+ years of 36bit code did not save TOPS-10/TOPS-20. TOPS-20 V7 fromD >circa 1989 could still run code written for the first PDP-6 MONITORG >(which later evolved into TOPS-10) written in 1965. As DEC didn't evenrE >try to provide a MACRO-10/20 compiler as they did with VAX => Alpha,rB >or even anything like full TOPS-20 compatibility to VMS,  decades0 >worth of work was effectively destroyed.  Go toG >http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ and browse the archives to see just acG >sample of DEC, DECUS and other third party software rescued for use inn >emulators.  >tE >The death of TOPS-10/TOPS-20 was O.S.-cide and, perhaps, Carly couldD< >quote that as a historical reference when/if she kills VMS.  C She's not in the OS business.  How can you expect her to understanda? what she's throwing away if she has no clue about the biz?  The = same thing was true about Compaq.  They didn't know how to dot3 OS development.  It is not a plug 'n play business.=  > The reason that OS biz is going down the tubes is because they< don't know how to do it.  It's just Bell all over again.  He@ poo-poohed software development.  His attitude was that anythingC could be thrown on it and DEC would still sell gear.  That couldn'te= be further from the truth.  When he wrote that paper and made== that corporate speech, he was trying to get back to the oldenh< days when DEC was a hardware manufacuturer.  The problem was@ that he never realized that DEC's success was based on supplyingB _systems_ not just bare hardware.  This was a man who never logged9 into a computer in the 70s.  I know.  I worked on  system = accounts and system _usage_ cross charging for DEC from 1973 G? to 1976 or 77.  I know who accumulated runtime or printed filesrA or LOGGED IN/OUT.  Bell had very little experience with software.I   >aE >And yes people really did run executables from the 60s well into the @ >90s. In particular the Greenblatt chess program (the first realB >program) was still popular with gamers right up to the day our 20E >finally died. The file dates of the executable and help files really F >were in the 1960s as backup/dumper honoured the dates during save and >restore operations).l  ? We tried very hard to not break old software.  It was always a -5 consideration in every design we ever did on TOPS-10.    >MB >The PDP-10 range, the system on which the Arpanet was effectivelyD >born,  IP as we know it began, where EMACS was first created, whereE >MUDs began. where EMPIRE began etc. etc. etc was just blown away. ToRF >this day VMS Mail is close to a subset of the TOPS-20 MM/MS programs.& >Don't count on history to save VMS..   B The reason this development happened is because DEC shipped enough? development tools and an OS that allowed many users to do their E development all at the same time.  That is the power of a timesharingB OS.e   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:26:59 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...-3 Message-ID: <SuZq8.1864$fL6.37438@news.cpqcorp.net>2  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3CAB82EE.B38D4474@videotron.ca>...c >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:lH >> I believe that the port to IPF, and the UNIX compatabilty work, along withK >> O/S and I/O peformance improvments, plus the EV7 high-end - all combinedo  >> have the ability to grow VMS. > F >Is it correct to state that those who really need raw horsepower will choose a >Unix solution on EV7 ?n >h   Or even perhaps, VMS.h  L >Would it be fair to state that a new customer would not likely invest in anK >EV7 "wildfire" class system ($million) for a new VMS installation, knowing L >that it would be a short term solution, needing another port in a couple of >years ? >   D Does it suprise you to still see large, high visibility, Tru64 salesK continue, despite the announcements?  Sometimes it doesn't matter what will 6 be available in 5 years, it's what is available today.  G The EV7 systems don't simply stop working in 3 years.  Many systems aretJ still plugging away two decades after they first shipped.  How many peopleJ are still running VAXes?  DEC2000's?  I used to estimate (when I did thoseI types of things) major software project development took 3 years, and thef2 production life of a installed system was 5 years.  F If I was about to start a design cycle for my next project, I would beK making sure to not let any creeping Alpha-assumptions into the code.  But IoL still might be planning for a EV7 deployment 3 years from now - depending on? exactly what I needed.  But in 2006-7 I might be thinking IA64.h  D >What is the expectation with regards to those large shops that have investedF >mega money in a Wildfire? Will they be able to continue to grow theirH >Wildfires with EV6 cpu modules, or are they expected to ditch their EV64 >Wildfire and buy a brand new EV7 based "Wildfire" ? >-  A Wildfires just don't stop working or being productive.  Just likeiF TurboLasers didn't.  There will be, I assume, programs for "fork-lift"= upgrades... but you should probably talk to your account rep.   D >Will HP make old Wildfires available to hobbyists ? I wouldn't mind	 upgradingi >my microvax II :-)W  I Eh?  Like give them away?  Buy a used one, and I assume that the hobbyisto license works on it ;-)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:32:13 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>01 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...m3 Message-ID: <NzZq8.1865$fL6.37332@news.cpqcorp.net>y  H Ah, sorry.  There was a metaphoric "her" - "the morally bankrupt tramp".K Nothing personal or sexist.  Yup.  No problem.  It wasn't responding to the H sentence above it, and refering to "her" or to [abortion] in relation to< "Carly's baby".  Yup.  No problem.  I read too much into it.    A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CABB877.A2CBF449@fsi.net>...0 >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J >>D >> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CAA7950.35775270@fsi.net>... >> >> >H >> >It isn't Carly's "baby" until the results of the HP votes are known. >> >L >> >...and at 20+ years, I believe that would constitute O.S.-cide, not justJ >> >another spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp exercising her7 >> >"right" to attack and destroy a defenseless unborn.d >> > >>I >> What is with you?  Do you have some personal insight into Carly (and Iw onlyK >> call her Carly because I can never remember how to spell her last name)?iJ >> Where do you get off calling her (I don't see another subject you could beF >> talking about) a "spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp". >>L >> In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone it's CEO.6 >> What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred? > I >I think you're reading a context into that which doesn't actually exist.iI >Read it again and you'll find that nowhere do I actually refer to anyoneaI >by name. The entire statement, like the statement to which if refers, ise >metaphoric, not accusatory. >V >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/O >]) >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:(  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:21:23 -0800e' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>51 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...v+ Message-ID: <3CAC7D83.3392EBDD@caltech.edu>k   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  K > In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone it's CEO.25 > What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred?y  3 Sadly you're likely to find out in a month or so ife1 the merger completes. In the meantime have a chatp4 with some current HP employees and/or MPE customers.  1 HP's management is slightly better than Compaq's.c, Which is roughly like saying that dry ice is4 warmer than liquid nitrogen.  While it's technically2 correct the more important point is that you don't want to touch either of them.r   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:35:18 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...u3 Message-ID: <E71r8.1890$fL6.37626@news.cpqcorp.net>3  K Perhaps there are people who don't like her management style, why does this I translate over into HP and their product set?  I can understand MPE userszL not being happy.  But I also am led to believe (by public comments) that theB user base had dwindled to the point that it couldn't be sustained.    @ David Mathog wrote in message <3CAC7D83.3392EBDD@caltech.edu>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >eL >> In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone it's CEO.6 >> What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred? > 4 >Sadly you're likely to find out in a month or so if2 >the merger completes. In the meantime have a chat5 >with some current HP employees and/or MPE customers.r >s2 >HP's management is slightly better than Compaq's.- >Which is roughly like saying that dry ice is65 >warmer than liquid nitrogen.  While it's technically.3 >correct the more important point is that you don't- >want to touch either of them. >-	 >Regards,- > 
 >David Mathogp >mathog@caltech.edu    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:21:38 +0200)E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>.1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...C+ Message-ID: <3CAC2932.357C3604@mediasec.de><  I > If the hacker is able to determine the stack frame slot with the returnoK > address, why couldn't he also modify the stack allocation instruction ande? > insert his trojan horse in code space and execute from there?b  L That's impossible in the context of a buffer-overflow attack. He can't storeM any data in code space, because the buffer he is overwriting is on the stack; 7 the stack allocation instruction is unreachable to him.w   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 06:23:52 -0800h( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...m< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204040623.22b6ad7@posting.google.com>  m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0204031745.51c9a23b@posting.google.com>...xF > Some here have contended that because TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS isH > based on Tru64 Unix code, it is thus subject to the same level of risk; > of buffer-overflow exploits as any Unix system out there.e > A > After a bit of investigation, I've discovered that VMS on AlphaiF > appears to be immune to these common smash-the-stack buffer overflow
 > attacks. > 9 > To understand why, first one must understand how common=D > buffer-overflow attacks work.  (A classic paper on such attacks isF > "Smashing the Stack for Fun And Profit" written by a hacker who goes, > by the name Aleph One.  You can read it atF > http://www.cse.ogi.edu/DISC/projects/immunix/StackGuard/profit.html) > B > A buffer-overflow exploit is done by passing an argument that isE > larger than the buffer size to code which fails to check its size. pE > The data is all stored, resulting in overwriting some memory beyond2F > the end of the buffer.  Hackers know that C compilers often allocate@ > data space for buffers on the stack, and part of the data areaB > overwritten on the stack includes the return address in the callC > frame.  The hacker writes a return address that points to his ownaE > code, which is also included in the area overwritten on the stack. oA > The function then returns to his code instead of to the callingBE > routine.  His malicious code then takes some dastardly action, like"= > starting the Unix shell and executing an arbitrary command.t > F > For a buffer-overflow exploit to succeed, then, the hacker must knowA > the address size of the the target architecture (for the returnmF > address), the format of the stack frame used by the architecture and> > the compiler (to know where to put that return address), theH > instruction set of the target architecture (so he can create his smallH > program), and enough about the innards of the operating system for hisA > program to be able to do something useful once it is executing.e > G > Attacks most commonly target Windows, or Solaris or other common UnixiE > variants, and because the attack must be so specific to a platform,dH > these wouldn't affect VMS, because it has a different instruction set,H > stack frame format, and so forth.  While that dramatically reduces theE > statistical probability of an attack succeeding on VMS in practice, C > that alone doesn't rule out the possibility of an attack tailorede  > specifically for VMS on Alpha. > H > Here is where excellent and fortuitous engineering design comes to theF > rescue.  The Alpha memory management architecture provides some bitsF > in the Page Table Entries (PTEs) that control what type of access isG > allowed to memory.  For example, a read-only page can be protected byAF > having the Fault-On-Write bit set, and any attempt to write the pageG > causes a fault and results in a memory access violation error.  Alpha4H > also has a Fault-On-Execute bit, designed to prevent an errant program? > from jumping off into the weeds and trying to execute data astF > instructions.  On Alpha/VMS, the user stack is mapped with PTEs thatG > have the Fault-On-Execute bit set, so any attempt to branch into datasC > area on the stack results in an access violation, and the processt > dies.  > A > So Alpha VMS is immune to common stack-smashing buffer-overflowd
 > attacks. > /  ---------------------------------------------- 0 > Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org    C and I have a perfect example of this ... from process softwares webr site,rD versions of tcpware/multinet on vms were either not affected or gave access, violations ... care to reply to this Andrew?    ( SNMP Inquiry - Cert Advisory CA-2002-03 P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  	 Question:l  D Are either MultiNet or TCPware affected by CERT Advisory CA-2002-03A in Many Implementations of the Simple Network Management Protocolw  (SNMP), dated February 12, 2002?   Answer:c  F These SNMP vulnerabilities do NOT pose security risks for MultiNet andF TCPware. MultiNet V4.4A is not vulnerable to these SNMP issues at all.D MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware have minor problems with access violationsA (resulting in the SNMP process dying), but pose no security risk.nC Patches for MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3 are available from theiE TCPware ECO Database and the MultiNet ECO database. Use the followingh
 kit names:   MultiNet V4.3A: SNMP-020_A043t TCPware V5.5-3: SNMPD_V553P011   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 16:41:26 GMTy0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...,9 Message-ID: <3cac822f.2048679715@proxy.news.easynews.com>   @ On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:48:49 -0800, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  H >If the hacker is able to determine the stack frame slot with the returnJ >address, why couldn't he also modify the stack allocation instruction and> >insert his trojan horse in code space and execute from there?  B Because pages mapped as executable typically aren't writable.  TheA program will blow up with an access violation the minute the hackt1 tries to "insert the trojan horse in code space".   
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:51:15 -0500e/ From: "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com>n' Subject: WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002 - Message-ID: <3CAC766F.CD8A3FA2@ix.netcom.com>-  - Final Announcement of April 9th WRUG Meeting h (regular time and place)   Western Reserve Users Groupc, Northeast Ohio Local User Group of Encompass   Topic: Oracle 9i  7   What's behind the "Unbreakable" marketing hype?  What,>   technologies does Oracle use to provide 99.999% availability;   higher? What is Real Application Clusters and how does it>;   differ from other clustering solutions?  The truth behind <   performance benchmarks -- how does Oracle stack up against/   other databases as to real world performance?g  ' Speaker: Jack Crail, Oracle Corporationo  5   Jack Crail is a Senior Sales Consultant with OracleO;   Corporation.  Before joining Oracle seven years ago, Jackt;   was an Oracle DBA at two major companies in the ClevelandP;   area.  With his extensive real world experience, Jack has >   been the featured speaker for Oracle at many seminars across6   the country and spends most of his time working with>   customers to successfully implement Oracle solutions. Topic:   Informal Discussionn  ; Topic: A distributed Town Meeting of Encompass LUGs to give +        feedback to {HP,Compaq,Encompass}.  n  8   The outcome of the March 19th HP stockholders vote is 8   still in doubt.  The vote is being contested in court.:   Whatever the results, members of Encompass and users of >   Compaq Enterprise computing equipment will be significantly    affected.h  5   The purpose of this session is to give feedback to b   {HP,Compaq,Encompass} to  5    1. get {HP,Compaq} to re-engage their customers asu       quickly as possible ;    2. influence {HP,Compaq} during this critical transitionw       period9    3. demonstrate and re-affirm the value of Encompass aso7       a valuable communications resource to {HP,Compaq}n8    4. steer a course for Encompass during these critical       times.  >   This session will be recorded, transcribed, and turned over <   to (national) Encompass to collate and analyze along with ;   the feedback from Town Meetings at other LUGs during the z;   weeks after the stockholder's vote.  You should expect tou<   give your feedback "on-the-record."  However, you may make   your comments anonymously.  8   Customers, consultants, and partners (such as Oracle, <   Pioneer-Standard, Great Lakes Computer) are encouraged to    address the issues.  r   =   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS APPROVED: address the followingI%   questions/issues and respond to HP:e  6   * Given that you have already lived thru the mergers:     of Compaq, Digital, and Tandum, what can and should be?     learned from the previous mergers which would be applicabled=     to the HP-Compaq merger?  What was done correctly?  What w      could have been done better?   9   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterprise e=     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment, <     stability/predictibility, support for particular product"     lines, credibility/trust, etc.   5   * What are your concerns regarding the relationshipg6     between HP and Intel and between HP and Microsoft?<     Are there other relationships which should be addressed?  3   * What are the your concerns about the dependanceS:     (over-dependance) of the combined company on PC sales?:     [Arguments raised by those opposing the merger.]  What$     should HP do about these issues?   @   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS DISAPPROVED: address the following)   questions/issues and respond to Compaq:H  9   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterprise -=     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment, <     stability/predictibility, support for particular product     lines, etc.c  5   * What are your concerns regarding the relationshipe>     between Compaq and Intel and between Compaq and Microsoft?;     Are their other relationship which should be addressed?a   /   * What are your concerns about the dependanceo:     (over-dependance) of Compaq on PC sales?  That is, are8     PC sales adversely affecting Compaq's support of our,     Enterprise computing and related issues?  =   INDEPENDENT OF APPROVAL/DISAPPROVAL OF THE MERGER: address  :   the following questions/issues and respond to Encompass:   :   * What should Encompass be doing to increase membership?   :   * What services should Encompass be offering to members?  9   * What should be the relationship with ITUG and Interexp     (the HP user group)?   Date:    Tuesday, April 9, 2002  Time:    3:00 to 6:00 PM T
 Location:    near the Compaq office ate   Summit Conference Center   1st floorw   Three Summit Park Driver   Independance, Ohio l    a%   A map to the bottom of the hill is: d   http://www.vicinity.com/av2000/map.mb?CMD=GEO&AD2=3+Summit+Park+Drive&AD3=Independence%2C+OH&GMI=1@   The office is at the top of the hill at the end of the street.    ( Directions: B   From the area of the interchange of I-480 and I-77, go south and    take the Rockside Road exit.   =   At the bottom of the ramp, turn right (west) on Rockside. c  :   Go west one block; turn left (south) on Summit Drive.    B   Summit 3 is at the top of the hill on the right (west). Parking *   is on the north side of the building.    ?   The front entrance (on the east side) is on level 2. The reart.   entrance (on the west side) is on level 1.    Future meeting dates   June 11, 2002n   August 13, 2002 3   October 22, 2002 (4th Tuesday to avoid CETS-2002)t   December 10, 2002    & See the (updated) WRUG LUG Web site at  $   http://eisner.decus.org/lugs/wrug/   Joe H. Gallagher Chairman, WRUG LUG dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.186 ************************