1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 05 Apr 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 187       Contents: An alpha0 Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe4 Re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan... Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures $ Re: Cluelessness in the Compaq Ranks1 Compaq & Intel  still have a position in Stratus?  Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Compaq below $10.00 again  Re: Continuous forms printers  RE: Digital 7-year plan... Re: Digital 7-year plan... Re: Digital 7-year plan... Re: Digital 7-year plan...8 Re: Fred Kleinsorge at work (formerly HP's viewpoint...)F Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinuxF Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinuxF Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinuxF Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinux Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  RE: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: import users$ Re: Java exec env value not working?D Re: Language support on Itanium VMS (was: Announcing a boot contest) Re: Macro-64 and Vax VMS Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3? Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest = Re: Possible (mis)behavior of sys$manager:utc_time_setup.com? ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) RE: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) RE: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it > Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks Scsi cluster Re: Scsi cluster Re: Scsi cluster Server Side Includes Re: Server Side Includes- Re: TCPIP: no new default route when IP is ON  Technical ForumsE Re: The Digital 7-year plan - from 1997 to 2004 - from Alpha to IA-64  Re: The Digital 7-year plan...% Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation  Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree> What OS Was www.openvms.digital.com Running On n 22-Sep-1998 ?( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...4 Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up)" Re: WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002" Re: WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 20:30:34 -0800 " From: nerdbert@yahoo.com (Ed Page) Subject: An alpha < Message-ID: <fdecc81.0204042030.72dd902f@posting.google.com>  C I am aquiring a DEC 3000/500 alpha.  The problem is I dont have the E root password.  So I need to know how to crack the root password.  If D no one knows, then Ill go use Satan.  This is legitamate.  Who would2 want to maliciously crack an old system like that?D The reason I am asking is because of the poor alternative OS support@ (netBSD apearing the best, if anyone will tell me how to setup aB serial connection and install NetBSD that way, ill be happy) and I' lack OS CD for VMS so I cant reinstall.    Thanks for the help    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:25:16 GMT % From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@insightbb.com> 9 Subject: Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe 8 Message-ID: <jkkpau4pebga3o5hmhs8ffeqmn1vs56bj7@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:22:21 +0100, Andrew Harrison 3 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun.com> wrote:    >  > 
 >jlsue wrote:    >>  D >> Ah, okay.  Now I see.  This is a top500 based on the running of a >> benchmark (LINPACK).  >> >  >  > ? >> I take it that this is a more favorable benchmark than SPEC?  >> >  > > >Well in this case yes its what they chose to use as a measure= >BTW what did you think you were refering to when you refered  >to SPEC, int, fp, jbb, web. >  >   D Well, the particular SPEC isn't important to me.  I'm just trying toC understand how you choose which benchmarks you consider to be valid  for comparisons.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:26:29 GMT * From: "David Cressey" <david@dcressey.com>= Subject: Re: Another VMS Database, was Digital 7-year plan... 2 Message-ID: <FN1r8.2$Kt2.525@petpeeve.ziplink.net>  G > Not a joke.   Rather like VMS itself, we're a bit of a niche product.     G Interesting to hear that system 1032 is still alive and kicking. I knew ! Charlie Houseman and Andy Garland L way back in 1969-1972.  IIRC they were the originators of system 1022,  backK when they formed Software House.  Are they still involved with the product?    -- Regards,     David Cressey      www.dcressey.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:36:00 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>   Subject: Re: Blade architectures* Message-ID: <wkg02bgstg.fsf@earthlink.net>  - Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes: F > Note however, that even for five nines ... various natural disastersF > become a major consideration ... just about requirement geographiclyF > distributed cluster (we had coined the term "disaster survivability"G > during our ha/cmp days to distinquish from straight disaster recovery 
 > scenarios).   G also, a couple years ago we were talking with a large financial service J operation who attributed 100 percent availability for six plus year period to    ( 1) ims hotstandby (clustering technique) 2) automated operator   J aka as hardware and software reliability gets better ... larger percentage= of outages were attributable to disasters and human mistakes.   ) recent thread (drift) on software process F http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#59 Computers in Science Fiction   somewhat related posting] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#15 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit    random human related refs:@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/3908 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#107 Computer HistoryL http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databasesG http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?) @ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#22 Computer of the centuryG http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#12 Amdahl Exits Mainframe Market i http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#54 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) J http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#43 Life as a programmer--1960, 1965?J http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#25 what is interrupt mask register?9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#13 LINUS for S/390 D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?Q http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results? Q http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#47 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results? A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#8 VM: checking some myths. ] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit ] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit ] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit < http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-nines6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq8 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#24 Buffer overflow   --  E Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:31:21 +0200 , From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures4 Message-ID: <3CACB819.DBEA8662@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:  D > one of the places that we looked at when we were doing ha/cmp thatG > needed five nines was 1-800 lookup service (aka the mapping between a B > 1-800 number and a real numbers). That was total of five minutesG > outage per year ... regardless of reason, planned, unplanned, etc.  A @ > non-clustered fault-tolerant system w/o hot-pluggable software= > ... could fail the five-nines system with a single software  > maintenance event.  F The 15th of January, 1990 outage that destroyed a large part of Bell'sF ability to serve 1-800 numbers lasted O(10) hours.  That would destroyG any five-nines claim for O(10**6) hours, or about 3.6 * 10**9 s / 3.2 * # 10**7 (s/y) years ~ over a century.    --  G Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:57:10 -0800 % From: J Ahlstrom <jahlstro@cisco.com>   Subject: Re: Blade architectures) Message-ID: <3CACCC36.E5AF0338@cisco.com>    hack wrote:   B > Congratulations!  There aren't many six-nines systems out there.E > (OS/390 Sysplex is another one, also thanks to clustering.  Without K > clustering I believe five nines is the best I've heard, also for OS/390.) ; > How many nines can an NT cluster claim?  A single NT box?  > 	 > Michel.   9 I believe that I have seen availability of unclustered NT ! as greater than nine fives [sic].    JKA  -- The belief that     there is only one truth and&    that oneself is in possession of it( seems to me the deepest root of all evil! that is in the world. -- Max Born    ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:02:19 +0000 (UTC)7 From: dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert)   Subject: Re: Blade architectures+ Message-ID: <a8ipib$9ul$1@sword.avalon.net>   . Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:   >Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:   E >> one of the places that we looked at when we were doing ha/cmp that H >> needed five nines was 1-800 lookup service (aka the mapping between aC >> 1-800 number and a real numbers). That was total of five minutes H >> outage per year ... regardless of reason, planned, unplanned, etc.  AA >> non-clustered fault-tolerant system w/o hot-pluggable software > >> ... could fail the five-nines system with a single software >> maintenance event.   G >The 15th of January, 1990 outage that destroyed a large part of Bell's G >ability to serve 1-800 numbers lasted O(10) hours.  That would destroy H >any five-nines claim for O(10**6) hours, or about 3.6 * 10**9 s / 3.2 *$ >10**7 (s/y) years ~ over a century.    B This points out an interesting issue about the "x 9s availability"D claims.  For some applications, being up constantly with no downtimeF for 10 years then having a single 10 hour downtime would be preferableC to having ten 30 second downtime events per year for 10 years, even F though the total downtime is much greater for the first scenario (4 9sC versus 5 9s)  One obviously strives to keep both the number and the E duration of downtime events to a minimum, but given finite resources, ? different applications would choose between number and duration  differently.   --H Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net  J A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:04:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures- Message-ID: <87d6xerjcz.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   " hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) writes:  ; > How many nines can an NT cluster claim?  A single NT box?    3, 999   (the beast is tits up ;) )   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 04:08:23 +0100, From: Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>  Subject: Re: Blade architecturesH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204050356460.10207-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>  * On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Douglas Siebert wrote:  D > This points out an interesting issue about the "x 9s availability"F > claims.  For some applications, being up constantly with no downtimeH > for 10 years then having a single 10 hour downtime would be preferableE > to having ten 30 second downtime events per year for 10 years, even H > though the total downtime is much greater for the first scenario (4 9sE > versus 5 9s)  One obviously strives to keep both the number and the G > duration of downtime events to a minimum, but given finite resources, A > different applications would choose between number and duration  > differently.  I The equally silly opposite case of this clumping argument being bit error  rates:  H If the rate is one in N million you get 3 in N^3 million million million bits have undetected errors.  E Unless the errors are correlated in clumps of 3 and you an undetected ; error for 3 in 3N million bits and hence no suppression. ;)    Peter  > --J > Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net > L > A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body. >   $ Peter Boyle	pboyle@physics.gla.ac.uk   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 05:07:03 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Blade architecturesC Message-ID: <Whar8.236600$2q2.20845087@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   9 "Toon Moene" <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote in message . news:3CACB819.DBEA8662@moene.indiv.nluug.nl...   ...   H > The 15th of January, 1990 outage that destroyed a large part of Bell'sH > ability to serve 1-800 numbers lasted O(10) hours.  That would destroyI > any five-nines claim for O(10**6) hours, or about 3.6 * 10**9 s / 3.2 * % > 10**7 (s/y) years ~ over a century.   I Only until the loophole that allowed the outage to occur was fixed.  Then F the clock starts again, and you just need enough time to gather enoughK uptime data to make a new projection (though for an overall system that has I only a single existing instance and should really never go down this is a H bit different than it is when you deploy a zillion identical systems and just wait for a few to fail).    - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:32:55 -0800" From: Erik Magnuson <erik@cts.com>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures; Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.43.0204042202090.19004-100000@erik>   , On 4 Apr 2002, George William Herbert wrote:  % >Erik Magnuson  <erik@cts.com> wrote: C >>Hmm. Somewhere around 5 to 6 nines you really have to pay as much G >>attention to facilities and infrastructure as you do the computer/OS.  >  >My, you're optimistic.   J Nah, just being overly cautious in making the assertion. However, I gladly stand corrected...   > A >Try at 3 nines.  Commercial standards for facilities and network F >performance aren't generally 4 nines, even in really good datacentersA >and network facilities.  I had one facility dump power for hours < >when a UPS bug and a Generator Bug conspired to panic both,= >another which nearly caught me in a FM-200 discharge after au? >welding accident when someone was repairing a cracked Liebert.dD >The stage 1 smoke and discharge alarms are not all that disturbing.F >Being caught 150 feet from the door when the alarm reaches stage 2...B >Fortunately the building manager braved it out and cut the systemB >a second or so before it discharged, since the Liebert was not in? >fact on fire and there were a couple of people stuck under the.; >raised floor in the next cage over who would probably haver >asphyxiated had it gone off.P >vG >>This includes things like buildings resistant to natural and man madeeF >>disasters, power supplies and communications links designed to avoidI >>single points of failure (e.g. Jim-Bob backhoe operator cutting throughi >>your fiber optic lines). >gE >See Marcus and Stern's "Blueprints for High Availability" for a goodAE >intro to the subject, though the NANOG and Datacenters mailing lists + >are good for more war stories and gotchas.i >o  E FWIW, I was basing my comments on texts regarding Nuclear power plantiJ design. Needless to say, there is a strong incentive to plan for all sortsI of bad stuff happening to the nuke plants.  Included in this was watchingA2 out for common mode failures (and a few examples).  J One statistic from WASH-1400 (also known as the Rasmussen report) was thatF diesel gensets were expected to have a 1% failure to start rate. PlantH safety depended more on keeping the grid connections going - nuke plantsE are required to have at least two geographically diverse transmissionM' lines connecting the plant to the grid.   H Anyway, thanks for the info, it reinforced my guess that the computer/OSB was just a small part in providing five to six nines availability.F Probably the hardest part is finding people with the right mindset for# planning and operating said system.      >-george william herbert >gherbert@retro.comd >i >     
 Erik Magnuson    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:18:28 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e- Subject: Re: Cluelessness in the Compaq Ranksl' Message-ID: <3CAD0BE5.9BC9FBA0@fsi.net>h   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:l > M > I thought that Compaq purged its ranks of the completely clueless, but suchc$ > apparently is not the case. [snip]  E Cluelessness being a subjective measure, it may just be a case of theh" "the blind leading the blind", eh?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems6 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:25:15 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>M: Subject: Compaq & Intel  still have a position in Stratus?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIECLELAA.tom@kednos.com>e  = A couple of years ago the group tha took Stratus private solde? 15% position each to Intel and Compaq.  Anybody know if this is  still the case?e   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:27:01 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again- Message-ID: <878z82ribu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  - "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> writes:    > Re: manual counting ..  RD > Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has somethingE > to do with all shareholders being able to change votes prior to the D > closing. Hence, they need to ensure only the most recent votes are
 > counted.  hD > It's a tad different from a general election where you are allowed > to vote only once.   It is a solved problem.   F You barcode the forms. Every 'voter' has a barcode block. If they wantC to change their vote, they get the next form. Highest number in thea0 block wins. So get them back in the right order.  D If you go to the meeting, you need the form, and it is swiped as youA go in. That kills ALL lodged votes. Simple.  BHP took about 1 1/2o@ hours to count and confirm a 20M share vote. Don't know how many voters there where.O   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:49:00 GMT.  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>& Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again+ Message-ID: <3CAD1EE5.ED90AF77@prodigy.net>>   Paul Repacholi wrote:> > / > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> writes:b >  > > Re: manual counting .. > F > > Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has somethingG > > to do with all shareholders being able to change votes prior to thefF > > closing. Hence, they need to ensure only the most recent votes are > > counted. > F > > It's a tad different from a general election where you are allowed > > to vote only once. >  > It is a solved problem.y > H > You barcode the forms. Every 'voter' has a barcode block. If they wantE > to change their vote, they get the next form. Highest number in thev2 > block wins. So get them back in the right order. > F > If you go to the meeting, you need the form, and it is swiped as youC > go in. That kills ALL lodged votes. Simple.  BHP took about 1 1/2 B > hours to count and confirm a 20M share vote. Don't know how many > voters there where.k  , Too high tech for somebody like HP, I guess.   >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.eB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:50:31 GMTt  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>& Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again+ Message-ID: <3CAD1F40.1A2D9E5B@prodigy.net>r   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Re: manual counting .. >  > Actually, from what I heard, the length of time also has something to do with all shareholders being able to change votes prior to the closing. Hence, they need to ensure only the most recent votes are counted. > W > It's a tad different from a general election where you are allowed to vote only once.l  8 Or, in some states, not even that often for some people.   > 	 > Regardsi >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultanth > Compaq Canada Corp.l > Professional Servicesl > Voice: 613-592-4660t > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >  > -----Original Message-----: > From: Jan C.Vorbrggen [mailto:jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de] > Sent: April 4, 2002 5:19 AMe > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comw( > Subject: Re: Compaq below $10.00 again > J > >         Hand count... just like they do in Canada.  Thankfully, we useJ > >         machines for general elections here in the USA.  And further -O > >         even with dangling chads - the outcome comes out excellent!  Can ya2 > >         believe it?n > _ > No, I can't. Try reading comp.risks on (electronic) voting, and the leads you get from there.r >  > Hand count doesn't mean "slow" - it's in the "embarassingly parallel" category. We usually have reliable results on general elections two to three hours after polls close.c > 
 >         Janw   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 01:52:05 GMT31 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i& Subject: Re: Continuous forms printers' Message-ID: <3CAD05A5.48084437@fsi.net>/   JF Mezei wrote:  > Q > Does anyone know if Compaq still has a refurbished products service in canada ?  > O > A friend needs a low end printer to generate reports on continuous form paperiP > (tractor feed) from a serial port. A brief look at on-line stores reveals that. > most printers are now USB with some paralel. > P > Any suggestions on where I might look for something not expensive ? His vendorP > quoted him something like cad $400 for an okidata printer. (that is about $250P > US). He needs to print stuff such as his store's inventory, so fanfold is muchE > mroe convenient to consult/search than  separate letter size paper.1  D If you watch eBay, you'll find everything from LA120s, LA100s, LA70,
 LA75, etc.  3 FWIW, http://www.printronix.com/ is still active.../   -- 0 David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:28:09 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>w# Subject: RE: Digital 7-year plan...-T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E26@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  F >>> I would add to Franck's post that, last year, the search engine of/ the Oracle WEB site gave no match for Rdb...<<<h  H Well, I can't speak for last year, but I just went to www.oracle.com and- entered Rdb and I received all sorts of hits.s  @ Also, if one uses MetaLink (Oracles main technical database) at:> http://www.oracle.com/support/metalink/index.html?content.html  G And then enter Rdb as the search criteria, you also get a pile of hits.t   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicesf Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: Didier Morandi [mailto:Didier.Morandi@Free.fr]=20u Sent: April 4, 2002 1:45 PMa To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comb# Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...y    F I would add to Franck's post that, last year, the search engine of the( Oracle WEB site gave no match for Rdb...   D.   Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote: >=20$ > Frank Sapienza wrote on 3 Apr '02: >=20D > |Come on, that's a late April Fool's joke, right?  Oracle has a=20D > |marketing department?  When was the last time you saw an ad or=20 > |*anything* marketing: > orI > |promoting Oracle RDB (nee DEC RDB) for OpenVMS?  They are as silent=20t > |one > their , > |OpenVMS product as Compaq is with the OS! >=20G > OK, possibly I was remembering when they _did_ market for VMS.  If=209G > they did.  Regardless, almost everybody knows that Oracle has/is a=20i& > database system, which was my point. >=20 > -Tym   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:39:50 -0500, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com># Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...g+ Message-ID: <a8ih310pag@enews1.newsguy.com>h  J There's a big difference between having a web site that returns hits for aH search on 'RDB' and *marketing* RDB for OpenVMS.  For starters why don'tJ they at least put a button on the main Oracle web site that say's "LookingI for Oracle RDB for OpenVMS?  Click here."  As for Metalink, only licensed I users with a support contract have access to that system, so again that'st hardly a marketing tool.  J This has been an ongoing nit of mine re: Oracle RDB for the past couple ofH years.  First, they don't seem to want people to know that Oracle RDB isI available for OpenVMS, much like Compaq doesn't want people to know about K OpenVMS itself.  Second, if you happen to know about Oracle RDB, or somehowrJ find out about it through some mechanism, there is no (apparent) effort to/ inform the Oracle sales team about the product.d  K Here's my example.  It's ok, you can try this at home.  Say for the sake ofT< argument that you've stumbled across the Oracle RDB web siteJ (www.oracle.com/rdb). You want to know about licensing and pricing, right?K On that web site someplace you'll find a note about RDB not being available2K through the online store, so please call Oracle sales (1-800-Oracle1).  YouiL make the call and ask for information about Oracle RDB 7 Enterprise Edition.& What do you expect the response to be?  H Well, the average end-user would expect to receive pricing and licensingK information.  The last time I tried this (1st week of March, this year) themH sales person's first comment was, "Why do you want such an old version?"H Obviously, she thought I was talking about Oracle 7i.  So I informed herK that Oracle RDB 7 Enterprise Edition was a *different* database sold by her L employer.  She clicks around on the keyboard and said, "I'll have to send anE e-mail to get this information.  Give me your name, phone number, and  someone will get back to you."  I Ok, it's been a month and nobody has called me back.  Worse yet, since my0K call to 1-800-Oracle1 I attended the RDB Technical Forum in NYC a couple ofaI weeks ago.  They asked everyone to fill out the usual questionnaire about.I whether it was useful, blah, blah, blah.  At the bottom of the form was alI question about whether you would like to be contacted by Oracle or Compaq J sales.  I said yes to being contacted by Oracle.  Still no phone call.  (IL will admit that the folks at that event told me to e-mail them directly if II had continued problems getting sales information, but I haven't done thatr7 yet.  It's no longer on the front-burner, so to speak.).  B Two years ago it was both much worse and much better.  Through theD comp.databases.rdb newsgroup I grumbled and got hooked up with real,H honest-to-goodness Oracle RDB folks who fed the information to an OracleI telephone sales person.  When it came time to speak with that person theytE asked me what the clock rate was for a VAX 4106 and VAX 4300 (the tworL systems I wanted to upgrade at the time).  Well, does anyone here know whereK to find the clock rate for those VAX processors?  I didn't, and neither didnB the Oracle sales guy, so that attempt at licensing RDB dead-ended.  J You'd think that at the current price (apparently $40k per CPU + 22% for aI support contract, though unconfirmed by any Oracle representative) OracletJ would make a better attempt at selling the product to people that actuallyH ask for it by name.  Certainly, if you've got an installed base of usersF that want to upgrade to the current release I'd think any vendor wouldK provide a mechanism to capture that sale.  Instead, it seems that Oracle isvL quite content collecting upgrade and support contracts from their very largeK named accounts with the big-ticket Galaxy systems that are mission-critical L to billion-dollar enterprises and aren't too worried about the little crumbs@ that are still quite loyal to both OpenVMS and RDB and still run? mission-critical applications for a small/medium size business.g  > Oh, well, thanks for letting me vent.  I feel much better now. :-):   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:33:56 -0500a2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)# Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...oJ Message-ID: <rdeininger-0404021933560001@1cust53.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  < In article <a8ih310pag@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote:    J >Ok, it's been a month and nobody has called me back.  Worse yet, since myL >call to 1-800-Oracle1 I attended the RDB Technical Forum in NYC a couple ofJ >weeks ago.  They asked everyone to fill out the usual questionnaire aboutJ >whether it was useful, blah, blah, blah.  At the bottom of the form was aJ >question about whether you would like to be contacted by Oracle or CompaqK >sales.  I said yes to being contacted by Oracle.  Still no phone call.  (IaM >will admit that the folks at that event told me to e-mail them directly if IoJ >had continued problems getting sales information, but I haven't done that8 >yet.  It's no longer on the front-burner, so to speak.)  E So you have email contact info for people who OFFERED to help you cutBJ through corporate red tape, and you aren't using it.  It sounds to me likeD the folks you met all but told you to expect crappy service from theJ "normal" oracle channel, and they pretty much volunteered to go beyond theA call of duty.  But YOU need to initiate the contact, to give them G plausible deniability when/if they get caught doing someone else's job.   0 Obviously, you should use those email addresses.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 01:57:49 GMTf# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n# Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...rG Message-ID: <xw7r8.11313$0r1.5008@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    Robert,o  J I agree with you to some extent. But Frank's experience with Oracle askingK about Rdb, being told that somebody from Oracle would get back to him, is asL very typical experience - not just with Oracle, but with Sybase, and any oneI of anumber of vendors who just don't see VMS as being a viable market any  longer.   A Their staff aren't trained to talk VMS, they don't understand thenI differences, they probably think it's some brain-dead offshoot of Windowsa 3.1 for all I know.r  G Yes, Frank should email the Oracle people back. But maybe he's just toonF beaten about the head and neck from far too many attempts to deal withJ Compaq, Oracle, and all the others to really give a sh*t anymore. I know aJ lot of VMS customers in that boat. Unix here they come, and it ain't going to be from ComHPaq.u    ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagecD news:rdeininger-0404021933560001@1cust53.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...> > In article <a8ih310pag@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza" > <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote: >o >oL > >Ok, it's been a month and nobody has called me back.  Worse yet, since myK > >call to 1-800-Oracle1 I attended the RDB Technical Forum in NYC a couplen ofL > >weeks ago.  They asked everyone to fill out the usual questionnaire aboutL > >whether it was useful, blah, blah, blah.  At the bottom of the form was aL > >question about whether you would like to be contacted by Oracle or CompaqI > >sales.  I said yes to being contacted by Oracle.  Still no phone call.d (IJ > >will admit that the folks at that event told me to e-mail them directly if IL > >had continued problems getting sales information, but I haven't done that: > >yet.  It's no longer on the front-burner, so to speak.) > G > So you have email contact info for people who OFFERED to help you cutxL > through corporate red tape, and you aren't using it.  It sounds to me likeF > the folks you met all but told you to expect crappy service from theL > "normal" oracle channel, and they pretty much volunteered to go beyond theC > call of duty.  But YOU need to initiate the contact, to give themdI > plausible deniability when/if they get caught doing someone else's job.m > 2 > Obviously, you should use those email addresses.   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:01:14 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>A Subject: Re: Fred Kleinsorge at work (formerly HP's viewpoint...) - Message-ID: <87hemqrjit.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  2 > In article <3CAB18B4.D70973D9@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik3 > =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:/  /B > >Oh, just for no reason at all, anyone know a good, high quality > >color printer ?  m: > Where are you going to get the right paper and ink?  ;-)   C > Getting a current (last issued in the 1930's) $1000 bill accepted@C > would be difficult.  Passing the 1880 model would be even harder.a  D Why?? Years ago, not only did the pub take my $3 bill, but I got the> change as well! Must have had an Ops Manager behind the bar ;)   -- 2< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.8@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 19:46:54 -0000 = From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>tO Subject: Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinuxa6 Message-ID: <20020404194654.14968.qmail@gacracker.org>  C On Tue, 02 Apr 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e >Bob Ceculski wrote:J >> OpenVMS is not now, nor has it ever been, vulnerable to any sort or anyK >> type of IP exploit.  Why?  Because OpenVMS will completely ignore any IPa6 >> packet it sees unless you add an IP product to it.  > N >What was that big worm that targetted VMS called again ? (back in the 1980s).  J That would be the WANK worm (what a lovely name ;). You can read all aboutB it in the e-book "Underground" at http://www.underground-book.com/  J According to my sources a copy of various worms and other exploit code forG VMS will be made available to the hackers at DefCon 10. Shame all thoset holes have been plugged :-)h  J Oh, and Bob, FWIW Sun managed to keep one system uncompromised at DefCon 9G (I'm surprised AH hasn't mentioned this). Of course, that was with 24/7aC systems management and god-only-knows what extra security software.      Doc. -- w6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.nete   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:14:42 GMT % From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@insightbb.com> O Subject: Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinux 8 Message-ID: <c0kpaucniomhq2c1pbi3ebtaklvftl42qc@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:46:35 +0100, Andrew Harrison 3 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun.com> wrote:'   >' >s
 >jlsue wrote:k >f   >>>a >>  C >> Andy boy, you are such a joke.  My history is of providing true, I >> accurate technical information about VMS and VMSclusters... except formF >> the few, unfortunately necessary side-trips to deal with this tripe >> from you. >> i >e >B4 >Sorry matey but you and I know that this isn't true7 >nor it it even funny. Remind yourself who you work fork4 >before you post again it will save you looking like >a T**D in public. >i  F Yawn.  Can't find anything to denigrate in your adversaries so ya just make things up, eh?K  F YOU remind yourself who YOU work for matey.  Nobody takes you, or your silly CEO seriously.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqc- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:11:29 GMT % From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@insightbb.com> O Subject: Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinuxt8 Message-ID: <mqjpausope0fbnjl3a2622r3aii43dp5sq@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:42:54 +0100, Andrew Harrisonl3 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun.com> wrote:l   >c >g
 >jlsue wrote:o >eH >> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:57:23 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy6 >> <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote: >> y >> e >>>w >>>Fred Kleinsorge wrote:r >>>s >>>tP >>>>Hey Sun wipe.  You doing this on billable time?  Why not go and write a real >>>>cluster product. >>>> >>>> >> p9 >>>Now thats what I would call a quality, adult response. 9 >>>Do you want me to start calling you Freddy Baby, seems- >>>like it.:):):)- >>>  >>  G >> Okay, another note for the pot-and-kettle award for 2002.  Strangely ) >> enough, both are from the same author.u >> :C >> Andy boy, you're such a hypocrite.  And just fyi, since I use ankG >> off-line newsreader, I have all messages in this group posted in thelD >> last few months.  Interestingly enough, the FIRST person in theseD >> discussions to start name-calling and personal attacks was YOU!!!B >> Up until that time, while there were disagreements, most peopleB >> recognize that much of the discussions are a matter of personal >> opinion." >i >  >t8 >Who do you work for again ?? Ohh I forgot from the high: >moral tone you have just tried to assume I thought it was$ >some other company and not ChomPaq. >-< >If you want rude just contemplate what your customers think@ >about you. Your memory is short if you have forgotten Alphacide; >Compaction and all the other things that have been done tof >shaft your customers. > @ >And there is no wiggling out of this, you are responsible along: >with the rest of the Choir to a greater or lesser degree. >tA >Who amongst the Choir trumpeted the 25 year life span commitment @ >made by Digital for Alpha when the whole project was hemoraging> >money at a rate the vastly accelerated the demise of Digital. >w > [major snippage...]o  C Whew!  Andrew you're really on a roll.  I've never seen so many non0 sequitors in one note.   Maybe you need some Ritalin.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqo- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)s   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 09:38:53 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>O Subject: Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping ofLinux.- Message-ID: <87lmc2rkk2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>.  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:t  C > What was that big worm that targetted VMS called again ? (back ine
 > the 1980s).0  1 WANK? Just getting ready for future Sun shines ;)p   -- w< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda..@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:06:27 -0500 - From: Ed Fortmiller <RUBBISHegf@ultranet.com>t  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXK Message-ID: <RUBBISHegf-BF41AC.14062704042002@ultranet-reader.news.rcn.net>c  3 In article <qGOg5KM$UOQb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e-  young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:p  H > In article <P_0r8.1887$fL6.37519@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" ' > <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:a* > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message ...7 > >>In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,a > >>B > >>Look.  The only reason I'm talking about this stuff is so that@ > >>people doing current development, maintenance and usage will? > >>learn based on my experience.  Do you think this is fucking@> > >>pleasant for me?  Go find something out about people whose > >>initials are JMF and TW. > >> > > M > > I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =i > @ > 	JMF "bah" - bah humbug?  bah seems to be a placeholder... his= > 	tagline often says "subtract 104 for email" , i.e. - "civ"  > 	 > 				Rob   + http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/images/TWJMF.jpg=  ' JMF is on the left and TW on the right.h   -- _3 Ed Fortmiller | RUBBISHegf@ultranet.com | Hudson MAm * F * To avoid getting a lot of SPAM junk mail, I have altered my REPLY-TOE * address. PLEASE remove the leading "RUBBISH" from my REPLY address.4   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:07:07 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>0  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <uB1r8.1896$fL6.37767@news.cpqcorp.net>u  " Ed Fortmiller wrote in message ... >> >L >> > I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =a >>@ >> JMF "bah" - bah humbug?  bah seems to be a placeholder... his= >> tagline often says "subtract 104 for email" , i.e. - "civ"o >> >> Rob >e, >http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/images/TWJMF.jpg >a( >JMF is on the left and TW on the right. >n  K That doesn't really help me much, other than to say they like 10/20's - andm# that neither one is Tiger Woods ;-)D   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:18:22 -0500b- From: Ed Fortmiller <RUBBISHegf@ultranet.com>   Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXK Message-ID: <RUBBISHegf-5F032A.14182204042002@ultranet-reader.news.rcn.net>   3 In article <uB1r8.1896$fL6.37767@news.cpqcorp.net>,e7  "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:o  $ > Ed Fortmiller wrote in message ... > >> >N > >> > I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW > =a > >>B > >> JMF "bah" - bah humbug?  bah seems to be a placeholder... his? > >> tagline often says "subtract 104 for email" , i.e. - "civ"O > >> > >> Rob > >a. > >http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/images/TWJMF.jpg > >b* > >JMF is on the left and TW on the right. > >  > M > That doesn't really help me much, other than to say they like 10/20's - andi% > that neither one is Tiger Woods ;-)a  I http://groups.google.com/groups?q=egf+group:alt.sys.pdp10&hl=en&selm=wwn1t) jombds.fsf%40atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu&rnum=2v   -- "3 Ed Fortmiller | RUBBISHegf@ultranet.com | Hudson MAi *SF * To avoid getting a lot of SPAM junk mail, I have altered my REPLY-TOE * address. PLEASE remove the leading "RUBBISH" from my REPLY address.d   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 14:46:48 -0500e/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)b  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX- Message-ID: <YEWAYfeCuutq@cuebid.zko.dec.com>s  E In article <a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: 5 > In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,uM >>So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I can fix it intK >>the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate, by turningtL >>off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of "real" >>substance. >>I >>He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help c > on...  > E > He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibited @ > none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.  C Fred doesn't need anyone to defend him, but before anyone questionsbK his technical ability, it might be useful to know how many patents you own.s  @ We're engineers; we have little-to-no say in how the corporationL markets/promotes/sells VMS.  We innovate when given the chance (e.g Galaxy),J and wish we had more folks to take on some projects that always fall belowL the line (larger DCL buffer size, etc...).  It may surprise the audience,butM we're as passionate about VMS as the customer base; many of the new engineersyE in the last couple of years have been former customers and posters toh comp.os.vms.  I We read the complaints that are posted here by the hour; in a 200-someoddbJ group, I'm sure that you could find folks here that agree with much of theH complaining.  We want to see VMS succeed; our heads are not in the sand,K but you give us way too much credit if you think we can alter the company'seK perception of VMS.  If VMS is profitable, we'll be around.  It's (probably)s that simple.   -- r  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.coml   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:53:19 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>w  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <Ng2r8.1898$fL6.37836@news.cpqcorp.net>s  " Ed Fortmiller wrote in message ...4 >In article <uB1r8.1896$fL6.37767@news.cpqcorp.net>,  J >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=egf+group:alt.sys.pdp10&hl=en&selm=wwn1* >jombds.fsf%40atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu&rnum=2 >0  L OK.  Here's my guess.  BAH = Barb Huizenga who appears to be the Significant Other ofG JMF = Jim Flemming - which would explain "jmfbah", and TW = Tony Wachs.u  K Don't know 'em.  But of course, I never was a TOPS-20 guy ("slightly" - butzL only just - too young) I came into DEC in the field as a Sr SW Specialist inE 1979 from the PDP-11/RSX route - and never knew the 10/20 developers.i  I So now I know the names behind the initials.  I still don't know 'em, andeK have no reason to want any of them to be pissed or to threaten to be pissed D about me or anything else.  Hey, I have friends who used to do 10/20H support.  I think command completion is neat.  Undelete is cool.  HiddenL 10/20 meanings in Firesign Theater skits was really cool.  Great technology,E and home to fanatics - just like the VMS fanatics, or heck - even theaK Solaris fanatics - each of whom think they invented the coolest technology.b  H Interesting list.  I know Dawn Banks, and John Hallyburton - both ex-VMSE developers and both recently worked with my wife (John is now back in.C VMS)... plus I know the names of a few others, and/or have had somec/ professional interactions with a couple others.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:03:44 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <yq2r8.1900$fL6.37764@news.cpqcorp.net>s   Rob Brooks wrote in message ...-F >In article <a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:6 >> In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,K >>>So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I can fix its inL >>>the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate, by turningF >>>off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of "real"
 >>>substance.e >>>pI >>>He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants helpu >> on... >>F >> He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibitedA >> none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.f >nD >Fred doesn't need anyone to defend him, but before anyone questionsL >his technical ability, it might be useful to know how many patents you own. >e  B Thanks Rob.  BAH, JMF, TW, and Mark Crispen all are probably fine,I interesting, smart people.  It looks like at least 3 of them were TOPS-20yB developers.  I'm impressed.  I don't want to poo-poo the technicalJ capabilities of the 36-bit folks.  After all, they had 4 more bits that we did for a long time.  L I am at fault for not simply ignoring a troll message designed to do exactly this type of flame.  Bad me.  I I'm not a big fan of SW patents, I think the patent and copyright systems D need to be dragged out of the 18th century.  But companies find themJ required and useful, and I have 2 US patents issued so far.  But I find itJ hard to brag when I know someone who just had > 30 issue in the space of a year for HW.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:11:06 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o  Subject: RE: IA64 is not the VAX9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKECEELAA.tom@kednos.com>    > -----Original Message-----< > From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]) > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:04 PMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como" > Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX >' >o! > Rob Brooks wrote in message ...sH > >In article <a8hvue$bsn$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:8 > >> In article <Bl_q8.1867$fL6.37612@news.cpqcorp.net>,B > >>>So I lack style points in debating.  I can't fix that.  But I > can fix it > inC > >>>the future by really-truly trying to ignore the poison debate,t > by turningH > >>>off the sound - even if that means potentially missing something of > "real" > >>>substance.t > >>>iK > >>>He knows how to contact me if he has a technical problem he wants help 
 > >> on... > >>H > >> He's not going to trust your technical expertise.  You've exhibitedC > >> none in this thread.  Actually, you've exhibited the opposite.i > >eF > >Fred doesn't need anyone to defend him, but before anyone questions= > >his technical ability, it might be useful to know how manyw > patents you own. > >C >8D > Thanks Rob.  BAH, JMF, TW, and Mark Crispen all are probably fine,K > interesting, smart people.  It looks like at least 3 of them were TOPS-20hD > developers.  I'm impressed.  I don't want to poo-poo the technicalL > capabilities of the 36-bit folks.  After all, they had 4 more bits that we > did for a long time.   So did Multics.P   >gC > I am at fault for not simply ignoring a troll message designed toi > do exactly > this type of flame.  Bad me. >aK > I'm not a big fan of SW patents, I think the patent and copyright systemsiF > need to be dragged out of the 18th century.  But companies find themL > required and useful, and I have 2 US patents issued so far.  But I find itL > hard to brag when I know someone who just had > 30 issue in the space of a > year for HW. >h >u >e >l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:46:41 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU><  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXP Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0204041239110.18315-100000@shiva0.cac.washington.edu>  * On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =rL > Tiger Woods?  But I'm not quite sure what it is I'm supposed to be lookingN > for.  I don't want to make anything unpleasant for you.   I have no idea who
 > you are.  H The appalling ignorance of youth.  And arrogant (judging by his habit of* calling customers "morons") youth at that.  G I suggest that he takes the time to find out who JMF, TW, and BAH were.aG He might learn something about his employer's history before he get his"I pink slip, and in turn learn some life lessons that have eluded him up toa now.  I Hint: JMF, TW, and BAH were not TOPS-20 developers.  At least that wasn'ttH their primary responsibility, nor why they were remembered, nor why they, were respected as gods (yes, BAH, you too!).  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcnF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 02 16:19:54 ESTr From: grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX/ Message-ID: <A4LytBrLvdjp@mcduck.acs.wmich.edu>j  @ It is certainly true that the question of how many users a given@ TOPS-10/Tops-20/VMS system could support satisfactorily dependedE on a great many things, including memory, I/O load and configuration,eC choice of terminal and network connectivity devices, what the usersA were doing, etc. etc.   B However, back in my younger days I had a great deal to do with theD TOPS-10 scheduler, which my boss and I based on a model by KlienrockE (seems there was a second name, but I forget) and with very extensiveoB testing to ensure that it actually followed the model.  It went to: considerable effort to ensure "fairness" to all the users.  E One of the big issues which was required to make it behave fairly waseD to ensure that it really did give out a time slice and that the userB had a fair chance to use it.  The earlier scheduler moved everyoneE around in priority constantly, based on what I/O or resource they hadtC just completed.  The result was very random behavior, with everyone M constantly going to the front of the priority queue.  Under the Klienrock/WMUrI model, no one EVER was requed to the front of a priority queue.  Once you-H reached the top, you stayed there until you either got you quantum/sliceF or spend too long doing other things without using it, after which you& went to the bottom of the queue again.  E The result of this was that the OS could give very responsive service K to a diverse mix of users, even when very short on memory by VMS standards.t  E VMS, at least in those early days (I haven't seen internals documents2H lately), followed the model of constantly revising everyone's priority. E The result we often saw, and which others also commented on, was thatwD when there was a mix of interactive users, heavy I/O user's, and CPUD intensive users, response was extremely erratic.  If you asked for aD quick response, which might require half a dozen I/Os, you would getG an I/O, wait for all the cpu bound jobs, an I/O, wait for the CPU bound>F jobs, ...  This was frequently a pain -- unless you could force all of! the CPU jobs to lower priorities.m  C This isn't to say that TOPS-10 scheduling was perfect. ParticularlysF if you used the class scheduler, just choosing who to run could easilyE consume 35% or more of the system.  And class scheduling overhead goteB worse as memory got bigger, because there were more jobs to choose between.  D Anyway, this may explain why people don't think VMS could timeshare.  F Personally, as upset as we were when DEC canceled Jupiter (I can stillD remember the DEC VP in St. Louis [what was her name?] being escorted@ around all week by at least two armed guards], I much prefer theD reliability and stability of VMS and Alpha.  But it took way to long
 to get there.p  B And, my own judgement on HP/Compaq is that the merger will destroy both companies.A    E In article <a8hpjf$27p$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:a- > In article <3CAC4AE2.4074CA4A@mediasec.de>,nK >    Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:e. >>> And a TOPS-10 SMP system could handle 500. >>L >>Our dual KL-10 definitely couldn't - it started to break at around thirty  > or >>so.c > F > Were you running master/slave?  That would have been 6.03x monitors.A > The 7.0n monitors were SMP.  A dual KL could take a performancea= > hit if an app required a disk drive that was single ported.  >  >>F >>> The difference in users serviced is due to the philosophies of theB >>> OS.  VMS was not a timesharing OS.  Eventually, it learned but >>> it took a very long time.r >>J >>Come on, that's just nonsense. It was as time-sharing capable as TOPS-10 >>very early on. > # > Sorry but the performance sucked.  > A >> .. The batch and print system initially left some things to bef5 >>desired, and DSC was crap, but the base system was   >>quite useable from day 1.a > @ > Useable is not the only criteria.  Reasonable response time is$ > more important, IME,  than usable. > @ >>Certainly more useable than some Unix variants a decade later. > A > I know people who valued usability and, thus, loved VMS because @ > of it.  They also were introduced to it when it ran on Alphas;@ > thus, they also got reasonable response.  IOW, they got their ? > work done.  VAX sucked.  HINT:  I never got my work done whene > I had to use a VAX.6 >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:14:05 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>g  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <vs3r8.1903$fL6.37828@news.cpqcorp.net>   ! Mark Crispin wrote in message ...w+ >On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:oL >> I assume that you are JMF (jmf bah civ - whatever that decodes to).  TW =E >> Tiger Woods?  But I'm not quite sure what it is I'm supposed to be  looking K >> for.  I don't want to make anything unpleasant for you.   I have no ideal whot >> you are.  > I >The appalling ignorance of youth.  And arrogant (judging by his habit of@+ >calling customers "morons") youth at that.  >u  K Hey pops! ;-)   I guess I have to call you that, since if being 45 makes me I a "youth" - you must *really* be old.  I remember wiring adding machines,-6 and running a sorter.  Heck, I was a IBM 360 operator.  H You know, I don't often call customers "morons", so I don't think it's aE habit.  I regret having made it a personal insult with that off-hand,dJ ill-advised comment.  He isn't a moron, we just disagree with perspective,' history, and where his note would lead.M  H >I suggest that he takes the time to find out who JMF, TW, and BAH were.H >He might learn something about his employer's history before he get hisJ >pink slip, and in turn learn some life lessons that have eluded him up to >now.c >m  J Did they start Compaq or HP?  One is my current employer, and the other myK next.  Maybe you mean my previous employer.  I missed the first 20 years ory so of DECs history.i  J >Hint: JMF, TW, and BAH were not TOPS-20 developers.  At least that wasn'tI >their primary responsibility, nor why they were remembered, nor why theyi- >were respected as gods (yes, BAH, you too!).. >a  F OK.  Give me the history lesson, since I'm a "youth" maybe I can stillF learn.  Someone else simply pointed me to a list of initials of formerJ TOPS-20 people.  Please leave out personal views of the computer industry,K DECs demise, the value of VMS, or the superiority of TOPS-20 - if possible.I  L For all I know, they invented the perimeter weighted 7 iron, and I should be worshiping.0   >-- Mark --t >a  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.s    F Of that I agree.  Not much is emerging here that resembles science, or light.   ------------------------------    Date: 04 Apr 2002 23:57:55 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX- Message-ID: <877knnsbgc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>"  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  C > Unfortunately, I fully expect the IA64 to be as successful as then
 > iAPX432.  / That is a bit far out. The IAPX had some sales.h   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.r@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 23:23:51 GMTB/ From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>-  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXF Message-ID: <bg5r8.9706$0r1.9666@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:vs3r8.1903$fL6.37828@news.cpqcorp.net....	 [snip...]h= > You know, I don't often call customers "morons", so I don'tp@ > think it's a habit.  I regret having made it a personal insult= > with that off-hand, ill-advised comment.  He isn't a moron, $ > we just disagree with perspective,) > history, and where his note would lead.t >i	 [snip...]g< Beeeeeep! Wrong answer. You *never* call customers "morons."G They may not agree with you, but if that is the case, try understandings? their situation and calmly explaining yours. Even in a pub with @ workmates late at night, don't do it. Casual words are sometimes	 repeated.n   Don  e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.a   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Apr 2002 00:57:33 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX1 Message-ID: <a8ispt$5jf$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>   - In article <877knnsbgc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, . Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:+ >peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:bD >> Unfortunately, I fully expect the IA64 to be as successful as the >> iAPX432.M  0 >That is a bit far out. The IAPX had some sales.   Tacky, tacky, tacky.   -- e@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:01:40 -0500, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX, Message-ID: <a8it2e01h6m@enews1.newsguy.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:yq2r8.1900$fL6.37764@news.cpqcorp.net...eK > I'm not a big fan of SW patents, I think the patent and copyright systems-F > need to be dragged out of the 18th century.  But companies find them= > required and useful, and I have 2 US patents issued so far.e  K I do have to agree, somewhat, with your lack of enthusiasm for the grantingtK of software patents.  I flipped through the two patents you co-authored andtL can't see how some civil servant in the USPTO could possible understand whatF you're talking about.  Of course, I'm not very familiar with the wholeC patent granting process so maybe they farmed out the review to some ! committee of civil servants.  :-)b  L Cool stuff in them there documents, by the way.  Bragging, in this instance, isn't such a terrible thing.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 01:03:00 GMTnL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX8 Message-ID: <00A0BF83.09F7C50F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  x In article <bg5r8.9706$0r1.9666@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com> writes: >0A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message . >news:vs3r8.1903$fL6.37828@news.cpqcorp.net...
 >[snip...]> >> You know, I don't often call customers "morons", so I don'tA >> think it's a habit.  I regret having made it a personal insulth> >> with that off-hand, ill-advised comment.  He isn't a moron,% >> we just disagree with perspective,n* >> history, and where his note would lead. >>
 >[snip...]= >Beeeeeep! Wrong answer. You *never* call customers "morons."fH >They may not agree with you, but if that is the case, try understanding@ >their situation and calmly explaining yours. Even in a pub withA >workmates late at night, don't do it. Casual words are sometimesc
 >repeated.  M Indeed.  Actually, if I remember the sequence of events - and maybe I don't - N Fred called Mark - who is pretty darned vocal about never being a VMS customerJ ever in his life, and who would pretty clearly like VMS to die so that VMSM customers can be as unhappy about that as he is about the cancellation of thexG 36-bit line - a  moron and Alan Grieg, who agreed with Mark and _is_ a eI customer (despite having been repeatedly screwed by DEC) decided that theeN insult applied to him (since it applied to anyone who shared Mark's opinions).  N Fred's apology for confusing the person with the content comes across somewhatK ironically given that Alan signed on for the insult because of the content.u  L Crossposting between alt.sys.pdp10 and comp.os.vms generally produces a good deal more heat than light.   -- Alana    O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:30:37 -0500t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAXJ Message-ID: <rdeininger-0404022030370001@1cust53.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  = In article <a8it2e01h6m@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza"i <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote:    L >I do have to agree, somewhat, with your lack of enthusiasm for the grantingL >of software patents.  I flipped through the two patents you co-authored andM >can't see how some civil servant in the USPTO could possible understand whats >you're talking about. G  G After the corporate lawyers got done, I wonder if Fred even understandsK those documents....i   ------------------------------    Date: 04 Apr 2002 21:19:42 -0500- From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>6  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX. Message-ID: <mddofgy28g1.fsf@panix1.panix.com>    grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu writes:  H > Personally, as upset as we were when DEC canceled Jupiter (I can stillM > remember the DEC VP in St. Louis [what was her name?] being escorted aroundtK > all week by at least two armed guards], I much prefer the reliability and D > stability of VMS and Alpha.  But it took way to long to get there.  " The very classy Roseanne Giordano.   --  N Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.comL   "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:01:06 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <Yo8r8.1916$fL6.37950@news.cpqcorp.net>n  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message,D news:rdeininger-0404022030370001@1cust53.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...? > In article <a8it2e01h6m@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza"s > <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote: >p >pE > >I do have to agree, somewhat, with your lack of enthusiasm for theh grantingJ > >of software patents.  I flipped through the two patents you co-authored andoJ > >can't see how some civil servant in the USPTO could possible understand what > >you're talking about. > I > After the corporate lawyers got done, I wonder if Fred even understandst > those documents....   H I did at the time.  But that's because I knew what it said before it was translated into incantations.I   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:56:26 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>-  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX3 Message-ID: <Ak8r8.1915$fL6.38117@news.cpqcorp.net>@  : "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com> wrote in message@ news:bg5r8.9706$0r1.9666@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >.B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message/ > news:vs3r8.1903$fL6.37828@news.cpqcorp.net...t > [snip...] ? > > You know, I don't often call customers "morons", so I don'teB > > think it's a habit.  I regret having made it a personal insult? > > with that off-hand, ill-advised comment.  He isn't a moron,u& > > we just disagree with perspective,+ > > history, and where his note would lead.. > >  > [snip...]h> > Beeeeeep! Wrong answer. You *never* call customers "morons."I > They may not agree with you, but if that is the case, try understandingiA > their situation and calmly explaining yours. Even in a pub with B > workmates late at night, don't do it. Casual words are sometimes > repeated.t >h  G You want me to carry a cross here?  I already said I was wrong, and I'meJ sorry.  This conversation wasn't between a vendor and a customer, however,L one of the guys in the conversation has decided that it is, and trumped me -J so it changes the nature of what I would *ever* again say to him - becauseH as a customer - (if you had read the other various notes you might know)G I'll pretty much walk over coals to keep him happy - at least for those  things I *can* control.s   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:11:50 +0200 (CEST)g: From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> Subject: Re: import usersdI Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0204042207340.9334-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>o  > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  M >+In article <newscache$9zt1ug$rtc$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, "Axel Haringa"e) >+<axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes:v [...]e4 >+> and copying the dat file is obviously no option. >+L >+Why not?  That's how I got from a VAX system disk to an Alpha system disk.  <  That *may* work, but not *must* work. A primary example are7 DECNET phase IV OBJECT, where "knows" the passwords of i9 "access usernames" - and if you not move the objects .DATl8 paralelly with SYSUAF - your MAIL or PHONE may not work.,  Other issues like this are also were known.    Regards - Gotfryd   --  E =====================================================================tF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEo. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:12:09 -0500 . From: Rick Retterer <Rick.Retterer@compaq.com>- Subject: Re: Java exec env value not working?v) Message-ID: <3CACCFB9.3080503@compaq.com>m   Richard wrote:   >"Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in message news:<craig.berry-D00D08.23021802042002@news.directvinternet.com>... > ? >>In article <9dbe34c3.0204021224.2d59f43e@posting.google.com>,t# >> willirl@usa.net (Richard) wrote:t >>I >>>I need to run a VMS command proc from Java (yes, I know I shouldn't dor- >>>things like this in Java) Looks like this:c >>>h	 >>>   ...a" >>>   String env [ ] = {"a = 25"};< >>>   Process p = Runtime.getRuntime.exec ("test.com", env); >>>   p.waitFor ( );	 >>>   ...e >>>aI >>>test.com gets run ok but the symbol "a" does not exist there.  Is this  >>>not the expected behavior?0 >>>dC >>I don't know what the expected behavior is, but are you sure the sE >>environment will be implemented as DCL symbols rather than logical  F >>names?  I suggest trying SHOW LOGICAL A in test.com to see what you F >>get.  In the unlikely event that the implementation has bungled its I >>internal lib$spawn call by not passing reasonable flags for inheriting  C >>the environment, there is purportedly a way to call RTL routines uI >>yourself from java, so you could, for example, call lib$set_logical or eG >>lib$set_symbol before instantiating your Runtime object (I mean, um,  G >>running your command procedure).  To say more would require actually o1 >>reading the java for OpenVMS documentation ;-).s >> > F >WHAT DOCUMENTATION?  All there is is release notes which are nice butB >don't talk much about JNI and dont' mention Runtime calls at all. >1! >Nope.  Logical not set either.  i >c: >Can't call lib$ or equiv because Java code is not public. >> >WillWilliamsosx >f  J            This all has to do with the CRTL (C-Runtime Library).  When youE call the "exec" method in Java, what is called from the CRTL is the C  routine execve().e  F execve passes the name of an image to be activated in a child process.J This function is non-re-entrant...  When the operating system executes theI program, it places a copy of the current environment vector (envp) in theOE external variable "environ".  From DCL, there is no way to get to theo external variable.  F In Unix, this is possible because you are execing a shell, that runs aD script... since the shell is a executable c program, the environment& variables are available from the CRTL.  H Now, I'm the first to admit, this isn't documented very well, but in theH DEC C Library Reference manual, in the explaination for execve() briefly/ touches this subject at the bottom of the page.>  G So, is this a short-coming of JAVA, well no not really.  This has to dowJ with the C runtime library and DCL.  Since DCL isn't typically used in theJ SUN, HP, Tru64 Unix, DOS, or MS-Windows, this is one of the limitations of using "exec" under OpenVMS.o  ( Here is how I accomplished a workaround:  ( 1)=========== test.com =================   $ reply/user=retterer "ok" $ open/write o out.dat $ write o "showing sym P1" $ write o "''P1'"- $ write o "showing sym P2" $ write o "''P2'"m $ write o "showing sym P3" $ write o "''P3'"m	 $ close o: $ exit <EOF>t  ) 2)========== Test1.java =================e   import java.io.*;a  
 class Test1 {i  ,    public static void main (String []args) {         try {>5          String env [ ] = {"test.com", "101", "102"}; 1          System.out.println ("running test.com");i5          Process p = Runtime.getRuntime().exec (env);r          p.waitFor ( );n       } catch (Exception e) {h6          System.out.println ("Caught Exception " + e);       }     } }n <EOF>a  + 3) =========== Compile Program ============s   $ javac test1.java  , 4) =========== Execute Program =============   $ java "Test1"  , 5) =========== out.dat file ================   showing sym P1 test.com showing sym P2 101- showing sym P3 102r  4 The P1 parameter is always going to be the filename.  I The P2-P3 parameters, are the arguments you pass along with the filename.nK I guess you could call P2 and P3, environment variables, but under VMS theyn: are symbols or parameters passed to the command procedure.  J You could then, (if you wanted) modify your test.com file to manipulate P2J and P3 the same way you would manipulate symbols in a regular DCL program.  - 6)============= Modified test.com ===========    $ reply/user=retterer "ok" $ open/write o out.dat $ write o "showing sym P1" $ write o "''P1'"s $ write o "showing sym P2" $ write o "''P2'"M $ write o "showing sym P3" $ write o "''P3'"h $ sum = 'P2' + 'P3' % $ write o "Sum of the two is: ''sum'" 	 $ close oe $ exit  / 7) =========== New out.dat ====================a   showing sym P1 test.com showing sym P2 101n showing sym P3 102e Sum of the two is: 203     I hope this helps.  
 Rick Retterers Compaq Global Services Atlanta, Ga.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:48:21 -0500o2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: Language support on Itanium VMS (was: Announcing a boot contest)rJ Message-ID: <rdeininger-0404021948220001@1cust53.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  3 In article <YnclcVciED0M@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:   >In articleo? <rdeininger-0304021955080001@1cust61.tnt6.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>,t4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: >> n- >> Where are these statements, if you please?- > L >   I didn't memorize the URL, but IIRC they were off the www.compaq.com/hps	 >   page.R  C I'm not having any luck finding it.  But I rarely have luck finding  anything on Compaq's web pages.v   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:12:48 GMTl1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>I! Subject: Re: Macro-64 and Vax VMSR' Message-ID: <3CAD0A91.CF37E1EF@fsi.net>C   Neil Rieck wrote:) > N > MACRO-32 (for VAX) didn't require a license. MACRO-64 (for Alpha) required a& > license for a while but is now free. > @ > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html#macro64  C Actually, Macro64 still requires a license. However, the license is- freely available.    -- 2 David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systems< http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:28:43 -0800c0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3h+ Message-ID: <3CAC46FB.49041B9@Mvb.Saic.Com>o   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Robert Deininger wrote: M > > There haven't been big functionaly changes in VMS on the VAX side betweeneL > > V7.1 and V7.3.  You aren't likely to stumbing into any problems with the > > upgrade. > P > 7.3 drops support for display postscript. So for workstations, you should stop > at 7.2-2.a  H Out of curiosity, what do you use display postscript for?  I ask because2 my workstation is at V7.3 and I haven't missed it.  
 Mark Berrymani   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:21:06 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>- Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3 3 Message-ID: <5z3r8.1904$fL6.37645@news.cpqcorp.net>c  A Mark Berryman wrote in message <3CAC46FB.49041B9@Mvb.Saic.Com>...n >JF Mezei wrote: >> >> Robert Deininger wrote:F >> > There haven't been big functionaly changes in VMS on the VAX side betweeneI >> > V7.1 and V7.3.  You aren't likely to stumbing into any problems withc theu
 >> > upgrade.P >>L >> 7.3 drops support for display postscript. So for workstations, you should stop >> at 7.2-2. > I >Out of curiosity, what do you use display postscript for?  I ask becauseh3 >my workstation is at V7.3 and I haven't missed it.  >t  L Adobe systems invented an X11 extension many, many moons ago, that allows anI X11 application to directly emit postscript drawing commands.  The intentIJ was to allow high-fidelity output of postscript.  Since X11 had only crude8 font support in the beginning, this made a lot of sense.  H A handfull of real applications took advantage of it, but not many.  TheK most frequently used aspect was the ability to view .PS files on the screen ! using bookreader, or other tools.n  K Adobe's strategy over time has shifted to PDF.  They have been not renewinghD contracts for display postscript - and when Compaq took over DEC, itI triggered something in the contract that caused us to need to renegotiaten= it - and Adobe isn't interested in continuing to support DPS.e  J Most people are unaffected, unless you use bookreader or otherwise need toF directly view .PS files.  In that case, you need to get something likeH ghostview (freeware) which can display it.  The people who actually haveL applications that emit DPS - need to recode - and there are not very many of them.-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:52:13 -0500, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3j+ Message-ID: <a8ihpm0qsm@enews1.newsguy.com>A  ; "Tony Barker" <tony@dartfactordata.ltd.uk> wrote in message70 news:B8D1133C.8E39%tony@dartfactordata.ltd.uk...0 > I have a VAX 7740 happily running OpenVMS V7.1H > Before I port it all over to an Alpha I am about to upgrade the VAX to V7.3.sI > Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether this is a good move or not?t IsG > V7.3 stable/usable or am I letting myself in for a lot of extra work?n >a  J If the VAX is happy at 7.1 then why not leave it there?  You can run 7.2-xL on the new Alpha and the two systems will live quite happily together.  (I'mJ assuming a cluster of some sort.  If not, all the more reason to leave theH VAX alone.)  It will also guarantee nothing breaks on the VAX during the transition.t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 18:40 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)  Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3e, Message-ID: <4APR200218401251@gerg.tamu.edu>  ` In article <3CAC46FB.49041B9@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes... }JF Mezei wrote: }> u }> Robert Deininger wrote:N }> > There haven't been big functionaly changes in VMS on the VAX side betweenM }> > V7.1 and V7.3.  You aren't likely to stumbing into any problems with thea
 }> > upgrade.w }> rQ }> 7.3 drops support for display postscript. So for workstations, you should stop) }> at 7.2-2. } I }Out of curiosity, what do you use display postscript for?  I ask becauseo3 }my workstation is at V7.3 and I haven't missed it.t }  }Mark Berryman  J As far as I can tell, the one and only thing that comes with VMS that usesF it is the CDA Viewer which you can use to view postscript documents onA screen. (I have used this maybe a dozen times in the last year.) =  J There might be something else (Bookreader? Does convert/document use it toJ produce the postscript output when converting to postscript?) but I am notE certain of anything else, that either comes with VMS or is an add-on,tE that actually uses it. Somebody else can probably come up with a few.=   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:35:55 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3m, Message-ID: <3CACFF7B.49BEFB85@videotron.ca>   Carl Perkins wrote:eL > There might be something else (Bookreader? Does convert/document use it to@ > produce the postscript output when converting to postscript?)    DECwrite uses it.t  M Note that it seems to be only level 1 postscript (on VAX) so there are limitsiK to it.  Level II has the ability to display FAX images, and that would haveaP been very handy to be able to display raw fax data in a simple postscript shell.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 07:07:22 +0200r( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> Subject: Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3-* Message-ID: <3CAD4D2A.37C51F80@bluewin.ch>   JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Carl Perkins wrote:6N > > There might be something else (Bookreader? Does convert/document use it toA > > produce the postscript output when converting to postscript?)  >  > DECwrite uses it.  > / And refuses to run after an upgrade to VMS 7.3:u  6 %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image XDPS$DPSLIBSHR% -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not foundp4 $1$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]XDPS$DPSLIBSHR.EXE;   :-(t  O > Note that it seems to be only level 1 postscript (on VAX) so there are limitsiM > to it.  Level II has the ability to display FAX images, and that would have R > been very handy to be able to display raw fax data in a simple postscript shell.    - __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandh   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 17:25 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)sH Subject: Re: OT: Choosing from Lists (was: Re: Announcing a boot contest, Message-ID: <4APR200217253961@gerg.tamu.edu>  1 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes...tf }In article <3CABCDB4.F908934@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes: }> Larry Kilgallen wrote:p } E }>> Perhaps you have me confused with someone who enables JavaScript.h: }>> I though you had been around this newsgroup longer :-) }> tB }> Sheesh, you people are supposed to "know" what you are doing :) }> P9 }> It is not javascript.. for a non corporate test go to:. }>  % }> http://www.spacelots.com/test.html  }> dI }> It won't do anything, just demonstrate drop-down lists... and there is , }> no submit button so it won't go anywhere. }  }That text says: } J }> This will demonstrate the use of typing a charcter in a drop-down list. }> -E }> Click on the drop down box, then type the letter you want. It willR? }> automatically "jump" to that letter... it is not Javascript q }> it is plain old html. } @ }So I click once on the drop down list that currently says "--". } B }It expands to a full drop down list showing the alphabet precededD }by "--".  I type the letter "g" and it collapses the drop down list }and is again displaying "--". } ? }This happens on both Internet Explorer 4.5 (0408) and Netscapee6 }Communicator 4.75-20000815 both running on MacOS 8.6.  @ It also does absolutenly nothing with Netscape V3.03 on VMS (you9 type a letter and nothing happens - the list doesn't event
 collapse).  L It selects the letter from the list with Netscape 4.7something on WindowsNT.  @ I'm pretty sure it also does this with just about any version of/ Internet Explorer after at least V4 on Windows.u  : It also does absolutely nothing with Mosaic V2.7-4 on VMS.  ; Likewise, it does absoultely nothing with Lynx V2.3 on VMS.   B It looks like only Windows versions of browsers have this feature.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:23:41 +0200 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>F Subject: Re: Possible (mis)behavior of sys$manager:utc_time_setup.com?* Message-ID: <3CAD5F0D.546B98CA@bluewin.ch>   Charlie Hammond wrote: > C > Here is a piece of valuabe information that is easily overlooked:l > F > If you have DECnet Plus (DECNET_OSI a.k.a. DECnet Phase V) installed@ > and you do NOT want DTSS to run, then you must "disable" DTSS. >  > You do this by defining: > ( >     $ define/system net$disable_dtss 1 >   > in SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.COM. > 8 > (This is documented in the DECnet Plus release notes.) > E Please note that defining net$disable_dtss in this fashion only works+) with more recent versions of DECnet Plus.a  B According to the Release Notes available on my V7.2-1H1 systems it arrived with DNVOSI072ECO03. __
 Paul Sture Switzerlando   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 19:16:45 -0000a= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>A2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it6 Message-ID: <20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  + On Thu, 04 Apr 02, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:r   <snip>  = >You're losing your core customers.  When you lose university-? >customers, you're not only losing today's revenue but the next=; >50 year's revenue because the kiddies are learning on yourF& >competitor's soft/hardware platforms.  H To be honest, I've lost count of the number of times this point has beenF put across, that is, that without recent graduates with VMS experienceC there will be nobody with a favourable attitude towards the OS in ae( decision-making position in 10-20 years.  F As I run a shell service on VMS I get a fair cross-section of the moreK computer-savvy public applying for accounts. More than half assume that VMSoJ is some obscure UN*X variant and think DCL is some proprietary UN*X shell.H That just shows what sort of market awareness we're dealing with. To sayI there is no problem is like refusing to accept you're in a desert becauserD you've got your head buried in the sand. Compaq sure as hell haven'tJ addressed this problem, and HP don't seem likely to when they haven't evenK mentioned VMS during all the merger hulabaloo. As a link to it was posted I;K re-read the open letter to Curly, I find no fault with it and think Bill isbG right, these were issues that should have been handled by the CEO. That>F they weren't speaks volumes to me about the senior management attitudeG towards VMS. Words from obviously pro-VMS people like Fred can't change K this, and I for one hope that whatever the outcome of the merger the owners.; of VMS get a serious management shakeup in the near future.t  J Anyway, all this negativity gets to people, myself included. To be honest,G I sometimes wonder why I even bother to continue reading the c.o.v. The>H technical posts that are relevant to me are few and far between, and theI political ruminations are predominantly negative. On days where there are>E over a hundred posts and I have 1/2 hour to read the group I start to H wonder why I bother. I don't believe VMS is dead yet, but the nay-sayersB are determined to portray it as such, and the yea-sayers have thisJ infurating belief that there is no serious problem. Because of this I findD it difficult to see either side as credible. If someone can find theF positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another	 position.C     Doc. - -- b6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----c Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBPKuJcsriC3SGiziTAQE3Jgf/eFaOkjWL+VLC7d5NFAk67giZ1zSdIsYJ@ EP5i4Q31AFMNK5vMOO55CKASyVL5BZDNzqbiy1tE1iR4vPO9IqQxHDAq3SB1SiG0@ kFAbsJAMuljjV4Fq0iwP6orob8El0owktbw02La2CYTAJ9CREUYMOlNFClQjtAa3@ K7c5W5iyX2mrmAkHbBAlCImtwsnJnyjAYPkrZvTvTPvTgfey5XgRbAB1PrKlc00D@ Pemm06JPC44yMy0HBvJRZw8vWeJXaM5AQjoGFt52oTbSPpru+puVofgZaLLcurUw8 z/M5yC7Jt0BzBsRoY1d+PIguS/T5Jj6svHz/9uPCmZE8J04kdt5Pkw== =42TXs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:05:38 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> 2 Subject: RE: Predictions - just for the hell of itT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E27@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Doc,   Re: focus on youth ..e  G >>> To be honest, I've lost count of the number of times this point hasn@ been put across, that is, that without recent graduates with VMSF experience there will be nobody with a favourable attitude towards the3 OS in a decision-making position in 10-20 years.<<<=  E Well, not that something that is going to change the world, but at ann@ Ambassador meeting about a years ago, one of the new Ambassadors introduced was 23.   :-)     Also, something to keep in mind-E "New college hires and interns to join critical engineering projects"=? http://www.compaq.com/inFORM/issues/issue32/human-int-29-b.htmle  G And wrt to future application availability, while Java is certainly not G without issues,  since Java applications run fine on OpenVMS, check outr future programmer trends at:  B http://news.com.com/2009-1001-868454.html?tag=3Ddd.ne.dtx.nl-sty.0B "That trend is reflected in academia as well. At the Massachusetts@ Institute of Technology, the computer science department in 1997H replaced Microsoft's C++ with Java as the primary software language that> students are required to learn. This spring, the University of@ California at Berkeley offered 25 Java courses and only seven on Microsoft languages.  A "In my mind, Java is rapidly going to displace all the languages,fF particularly C++," MIT associate professor Daniel Jackson said, notingE that undergraduate students are increasingly teaching themselves some,G Java even before attending his classes. In two years, the College BoardcH will switch from C++ to Java for the computer science advanced placementD tests that high school students take to get credit for college-level	 courses."g   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant= Compaq Canada Corp.s Professional Servicesn Voice: 613-592-4660r Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----G From: Doc.Cypher [mailto:Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]]=203 Sent: April 4, 2002 2:17 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it    " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  + On Thu, 04 Apr 02, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e   <snip>  H >You're losing your core customers.  When you lose university customers,  I >you're not only losing today's revenue but the next 50 year's revenue=200G >because the kiddies are learning on your competitor's soft/hardware=20n >platforms.   H To be honest, I've lost count of the number of times this point has beenF put across, that is, that without recent graduates with VMS experienceC there will be nobody with a favourable attitude towards the OS in al( decision-making position in 10-20 years.  F As I run a shell service on VMS I get a fair cross-section of the moreG computer-savvy public applying for accounts. More than half assume thatoG VMS is some obscure UN*X variant and think DCL is some proprietary UN*X H shell. That just shows what sort of market awareness we're dealing with.H To say there is no problem is like refusing to accept you're in a desertD because you've got your head buried in the sand. Compaq sure as hellE haven't addressed this problem, and HP don't seem likely to when they H haven't even mentioned VMS during all the merger hulabaloo. As a link toF it was posted I re-read the open letter to Curly, I find no fault withC it and think Bill is right, these were issues that should have been.D handled by the CEO. That they weren't speaks volumes to me about theD senior management attitude towards VMS. Words from obviously pro-VMSH people like Fred can't change this, and I for one hope that whatever theH outcome of the merger the owners of VMS get a serious management shakeup in the near future.-  B Anyway, all this negativity gets to people, myself included. To beD honest, I sometimes wonder why I even bother to continue reading theB c.o.v. The technical posts that are relevant to me are few and farE between, and the political ruminations are predominantly negative. OnaE days where there are over a hundred posts and I have 1/2 hour to readkE the group I start to wonder why I bother. I don't believe VMS is deadpE yet, but the nay-sayers are determined to portray it as such, and the H yea-sayers have this infurating belief that there is no serious problem.F Because of this I find it difficult to see either side as credible. IfF someone can find the positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another position.     Doc. - --=20@6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----r Version: 2.6.2  @ iQEVAwUBPKuJcsriC3SGiziTAQE3Jgf/eFaOkjWL+VLC7d5NFAk67giZ1zSdIsYJ@ EP5i4Q31AFMNK5vMOO55CKASyVL5BZDNzqbiy1tE1iR4vPO9IqQxHDAq3SB1SiG0@ kFAbsJAMuljjV4Fq0iwP6orob8El0owktbw02La2CYTAJ9CREUYMOlNFClQjtAa3@ K7c5W5iyX2mrmAkHbBAlCImtwsnJnyjAYPkrZvTvTPvTgfey5XgRbAB1PrKlc00D@ Pemm06JPC44yMy0HBvJRZw8vWeJXaM5AQjoGFt52oTbSPpru+puVofgZaLLcurUw< z/M5yC7Jt0BzBsRoY1d+PIguS/T5Jj6svHz/9uPCmZE8J04kdt5Pkw=3D=3D =3D42TX  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:29:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it, Message-ID: <3CACD3D9.D1D4812B@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > without issues,  since Java applications run fine on OpenVMS, check outo > future programmer trends at:  K Funny Java doesn't run on my VMS. (vax). And once IA64 is out, will updated M version of JAVA continue to be released on Alpha so that new applications cane* be used on the remaining Alpha platforms ?  G Also, what types of Java applications are in serious use for productionw- purposes ? Database engines ? Forms drivers ?e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:20:58 GMTe% From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@insightbb.com>A2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it8 Message-ID: <9ckpaukiusfl8701ma86iatun0m2lurjgc@4ax.com>  F On 1 Apr 2002 13:47:11 -0800, quodling@bigpond.net.au (Peter Quodling) wrote:     >iD >As for HP buying into the Compaq professional services business, it@ >literally doesn't exist anymore. They (Compaq) have had massiveG >layoffs and are rejecting new business. I think the few that remain in,E >senior positions, are posturing for as comfortable a fall from grace>
 >as possible.O  B Er.... What?  We're definitely not (in the US anyway) turning awayB business... and in my group I don't think there's been any massive	 anything.n    1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:55:32 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it3 Message-ID: <JO4r8.1909$fL6.37939@news.cpqcorp.net>   L Well, because of how it was done, VMS development has two seperate streams -I VAX and Alpha.  Yes, a lot of it is common - at least in origin.  But not K everything can, or will be backported to VAX - sometimes its just as simplesJ as the lack of IEEE floating point, or having graphics controllers as slow as crayons.-  K We have deliberately decided to make Alpha and IA64 code bases common.  But K I'll guess that 20 years from now, you might not get the newest application H to run on a ES40.  Just like you can't make everything work on a VAX 780J today.  BUT your 20 year old applications will still be running just fine.  H I don't expect to see any recent vintage Alpha being a boat anchor for a quite a while.    : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CACD3D9.D1D4812B@videotron.ca... > "Main, Kerry" wrote:K > > without issues,  since Java applications run fine on OpenVMS, check outi  > > future programmer trends at: >rE > Funny Java doesn't run on my VMS. (vax). And once IA64 is out, wille updated K > version of JAVA continue to be released on Alpha so that new applicationsi canS, > be used on the remaining Alpha platforms ? >eI > Also, what types of Java applications are in serious use for productioni/ > purposes ? Database engines ? Forms drivers ?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:25:04 -0700t+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> 2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it, Message-ID: <3CACEEE0.A2683463@jetnet.ab.ca>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:p  8 > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. > ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. >  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----F > Version: 2.6.2 > B > iQEVAwUBPKuJcsriC3SGiziTAQE3Jgf/eFaOkjWL+VLC7d5NFAk67giZ1zSdIsYJB > EP5i4Q31AFMNK5vMOO55CKASyVL5BZDNzqbiy1tE1iR4vPO9IqQxHDAq3SB1SiG0B > kFAbsJAMuljjV4Fq0iwP6orob8El0owktbw02La2CYTAJ9CREUYMOlNFClQjtAa3B > K7c5W5iyX2mrmAkHbBAlCImtwsnJnyjAYPkrZvTvTPvTgfey5XgRbAB1PrKlc00DB > Pemm06JPC44yMy0HBvJRZw8vWeJXaM5AQjoGFt52oTbSPpru+puVofgZaLLcurUw: > z/M5yC7Jt0BzBsRoY1d+PIguS/T5Jj6svHz/9uPCmZE8J04kdt5Pkw== > =42TXa > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----v  > Are you not tempting fate with that Sig just before PGP stuff? -- s% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *-+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html0   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:20:00 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>>2 Subject: RE: Predictions - just for the hell of itT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E28@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,   @ >>> Also, what types of Java applications are in serious use for; production purposes ? Database engines ? Forms drivers ?<<<u  D Well, SAP, PeopleSoft, Oracle are all moving major portions of their code to JavaH http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,5099254,00.h tml=20  G Also, check out the Financial market - one of your favourite topics :-)i   Nov 26, 2001) http://www.onexchange.com/press112601.asp   > "Today, derivatives clearinghouses, exchanges, banks and otherA organizations running applications on the powerful Compaq OpenVMSeC operating system, can benefit from onExchange's Extensible ClearingTD System and Extensible Trading Engine. The system's straight-through-A processing (STP) methodology enables true real-time processing by0: clearing and settling a trade as soon as it is matched..."  E "As a result of close engineering and lab work between the companies,cF onExchange has successfully deployed its Java standard clearing systemF and trading engine, using the BEA WebLogic Server, on Compaq's OpenVMS AlphaServer systems."y  E The following is a sample of NEW java applications recently certed on  OpenVMS:0 http://www.dataglider.com/solutions/openvms.html@ http://www.lutris.com/company/pressReleases/Press020204.html New Application Server   Regards     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660o Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]=20o Sent: April 4, 2002 5:30 PMe To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it     "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > without issues,  since Java applications run fine on OpenVMS, check=20" > out future programmer trends at:  C Funny Java doesn't run on my VMS. (vax). And once IA64 is out, will D updated version of JAVA continue to be released on Alpha so that new; applications can be used on the remaining Alpha platforms ?0  G Also, what types of Java applications are in serious use for production - purposes ? Database engines ? Forms drivers ?V   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 08:07:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it- Message-ID: <87pu1fqa87.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   0 quodling@bigpond.net.au (Peter Quodling) writes:  ? > I hope that the have the basic business sense to be sure that2F > Itanium can cut it, before throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  A These are the people who jumped on to the good ship itanic beforet@ they even knew if porting VMS was possible. (Possible as nothing? being needed to be shot to do it.) The one who said it was goodc= for another 10 years of active development 4 days before they_
 killed it.  2 More like slit it throat and strangled it first...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda._@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:40:44 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it? Message-ID: <gV9r8.3866$es3.428262@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>R  J "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message0 news:20020404191645.14084.qmail@gacracker.org...   ...-   > If someone can find the:H > positive/negative switch for the newsgroup please toggle it to another > position.R  > There's no mystery about where the switch is located:  it's atL Michael.Capellas@Compaq.com.  Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for years, andH there appears to be little likelihood of getting it replaced with a more effective one.  L People like Fred who exhort customers to run out and buy as many VMS systemsH as they can afford in the hope that this will give the platform a betterJ chance for a future are seriously confused about how commerce works:  it'sG the *vendor* who needs to give *customers* the assurance of a product's L future, not the reverse.  So when the vendor's top management clearly has noK interest in the product, nor any interest in accepting customer suggestionsII for how to improve its revenue and profit, asking customers to hang on inrE the hope they won't be hung out to dry is - well, the most charitablesK characterization one can put on it is the one I did ("seriously confused"),tL but after sufficient repetitions in the face of clear explanations it reallyL does begin to look much more like being self-serving ("I'd like to hang ontoK this job a while longer:  won't you put your company's money on the line too increase my chances?").i   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Apr 2002 05:22:57 GMT.- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)n2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-SzmxzI9qWHkx@localhost>n  F On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:17:09 UTC, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:   > J > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not come aF > floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks.. > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$.  F Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do  you mean the VaxMate?e   -- , Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:28:38 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>G Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacksy- Message-ID: <874riqri95.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  3 KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:I  D > Here is where excellent and fortuitous engineering design comes toE > the rescue.  The Alpha memory management architecture provides somelA > bits in the Page Table Entries (PTEs) that control what type offD > access is allowed to memory.  For example, a read-only page can beD > protected by having the Fault-On-Write bit set, and any attempt to> > write the page causes a fault and results in a memory accessF > violation error.  Alpha also has a Fault-On-Execute bit, designed toF > prevent an errant program from jumping off into the weeds and tryingC > to execute data as instructions.  On Alpha/VMS, the user stack isxA > mapped with PTEs that have the Fault-On-Execute bit set, so anylD > attempt to branch into data area on the stack results in an access" > violation, and the process dies.   Not on the itanic...     -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:46:13 GMTn# From: "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com>l Subject: Scsi cluster > Message-ID: <942r8.65948$y26.13893121@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>  K I have a standalone DS10, and I have an AS2100a attached to an HSZ50.  BothtH of them have VMS 7.2-1  I want to cluster them together.  I have all theF cables I need to connect the DS10 to the HSZ.  If I connect them firstL (prior to "clustering" them), can I access the HSZ disks so that I can do anK image copy from the DS10 internal disk to one of the HSZ disks?  Will thereiK be any hazard from connecting the DS10 to the HSZ that is being used by theiG 2100?  The 2100 is an actively used machine.  The DS10 is not currentlyaL being used for anything.  It was being used for our Alpha Migration testing.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:43:02 +0200 (CEST).: From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> Subject: Re: Scsi clusteraI Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0204042237310.9334-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>c  " On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, John N. wrote: [...]+H >+cables I need to connect the DS10 to the HSZ.  If I connect them firstN >+(prior to "clustering" them), can I access the HSZ disks so that I can do anM >+image copy from the DS10 internal disk to one of the HSZ disks?  Will theregM >+be any hazard from connecting the DS10 to the HSZ that is being used by ther >+2100?  [...]  @ IMO - as long you carefully *not* mount any disk on both systems= - not. Mounting the same disk in two cluster (says: "separateo: lock managers") is a great way to corrupt filesystem :) on	 the disk.e7  WARNING: I am not say about "hot connecting" the cablee: (have no experience with HSZ50) but only for the "prior to clustering" query.    Regards - Gotfryd   -- nE =====================================================================7F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEe. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================e   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 15:09:34 -0800-1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)e Subject: Re: Scsi clusterg< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0204041509.8005cf0@posting.google.com>  i "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<942r8.65948$y26.13893121@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>... M > I have a standalone DS10, and I have an AS2100a attached to an HSZ50.  Both J > of them have VMS 7.2-1  I want to cluster them together.  I have all theH > cables I need to connect the DS10 to the HSZ.  If I connect them firstN > (prior to "clustering" them), can I access the HSZ disks so that I can do anM > image copy from the DS10 internal disk to one of the HSZ disks?  Will thereoM > be any hazard from connecting the DS10 to the HSZ that is being used by thesI > 2100?  The 2100 is an actively used machine.  The DS10 is not currentlyaN > being used for anything.  It was being used for our Alpha Migration testing.  E One way or another, you're going to have to run CLUSTER_CONFIG on thegE 2100, run AUTOGEN, and reboot it before it can be in a cluster.  That F scheduled-downtime event could also be used to recable the SCSI bus if desired.  A I'd be hesitant to connect the DS10 to the HSZ without it being a F member of a cluster with the 2100 -- it'd be too easy to get somethingF wrong.  If you must do that, note that you can set up all the units onE the HSZ to be accessible only from a specific SCSI ID (i.e. one AlphatC or the other), which could help prevent uncoordinated shared accessg! before the systems are clustered.t  F You probably already know this, but you will need some sort of clusterD interconnect (in addition to the SCSI storage interconnect) to carry9 SCS traffic between the systems.  A LAN would do the job.w  E You wouldn't necessarily have to copy the DS10's local system disk to F an HSZ disk for the system to be in the cluster.  It could continue toD run from its own local system disk, or you could create another rootC on the 2100's system disk for the DS10 (that's probably the easiest F way to go), and either boot it off the HSZ directly, or you could bootA it as a satellite node of the 2100.  (If it has a separate systemtF disk, you must specify the same cluster group number to CLUSTER_CONFIG! on both system disks, of course.)d. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:58:38 GMTe) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton). Subject: Server Side Includes-2 Message-ID: <3cad0ffe.1289957270@news.wcc.govt.nz>   Hi All,V  B I've been playing around with Server Side Includes on both my CSWS@ (on OpenVMS Alpha) and WASD (on OpenVMS VAX) Web Servers and I'm. coming unstuck on a number of inconsistencies.  @ First off, there seems to be several SSI directives that are not0 available on the CSWS Server (e.g. <!--#flastmodE file="dsa1:[www]shtml_1.shtml" --> will work on WASD but not on CSWS.S  F The WASD and CSWS share the same UIC so there are no ownership issues.? And I know SSI is working on CSWS because some directives work.   E I've also found that the exec cmd SSI seems to funnction differently..D The Command file I'm calling from the .shtml page formats the outputC with various html codes e.g. <TR> etc. On the CSWS Server this thenmC displays as I would hope, alas on the WASD Server the <TR> etc. areA displayed as part of the text.  F So, anyone know of any CSWS documentation that actually lists what SSI directives can be used?A  D Anyone know of why WASD presents the data back from an exec cmd call; unhtml'ed? or if there are ways of modifying the behaviour?v  D Before suggestions are made as regards replacing Apache with WASD onD the Alphas or similar, the main exercise I'm doing here is trying to@ learn more about Web Servers. So far I've learn't quite a lot as! regards html and shtml standards!2   As always, thanks in advance.o   Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:15:08 GMTf) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)d! Subject: Re: Server Side Includes 2 Message-ID: <3cad15f6.1291485798@news.wcc.govt.nz>  E On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:58:38 GMT, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)f wrote:   >Hi All, >lC >I've been playing around with Server Side Includes on both my CSWSnA >(on OpenVMS Alpha) and WASD (on OpenVMS VAX) Web Servers and I'mh/ >coming unstuck on a number of inconsistencies.  >aA >First off, there seems to be several SSI directives that are not 1 >available on the CSWS Server (e.g. <!--#flastmod-F >file="dsa1:[www]shtml_1.shtml" --> will work on WASD but not on CSWS. >nG >The WASD and CSWS share the same UIC so there are no ownership issues. @ >And I know SSI is working on CSWS because some directives work. >aF >I've also found that the exec cmd SSI seems to funnction differently.E >The Command file I'm calling from the .shtml page formats the output D >with various html codes e.g. <TR> etc. On the CSWS Server this thenD >displays as I would hope, alas on the WASD Server the <TR> etc. are >displayed as part of the text.h > G >So, anyone know of any CSWS documentation that actually lists what SSIl >directives can be used? >,E >Anyone know of why WASD presents the data back from an exec cmd calle< >unhtml'ed? or if there are ways of modifying the behaviour? > E >Before suggestions are made as regards replacing Apache with WASD ontE >the Alphas or similar, the main exercise I'm doing here is trying tolA >learn more about Web Servers. So far I've learn't quite a lot as " >regards html and shtml standards! >  >As always, thanks in advance. >  >Rob. D Just a follow up, found that adding the type="text/html" to the execF cmd directive allowed the WASD Server to correctly display the output.B Alas, now the CSWS Server gives an error occurred while processingB directive error message but does still present the data correctly.F I guess it still comes down to trying to determine what SSI directives! are common between WASD and CSWS.i  3 Might have to wait for Alans book to hit the shops!-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:06:44 +0200m2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)6 Subject: Re: TCPIP: no new default route when IP is ON; Message-ID: <3cac9634.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>h  5 Tim Llewellyn (tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:  > Hans Vlems wrote:.? > > The person appointed driver is called Bob in that campaign.Q >w& > ??? I thought Bob was a builder :-). >A@ > I sincerely hope most of you are mystified by this as it means) > Bob The Builder hasn't escaped the UK !o  D He has. He's a frequent guest on german kids TV. In fact so frequentD that my boss brings a figurine of his to each meeting which exclaimsE "We *can* do it!" (sorry, my bad translation; don't know the originalH phrase). <sigh>P   cu,    Martin -- EA                      | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmeru. Microsoft's answer   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deA to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ 5 Windows NT 10.0.     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------    Date: 04 Apr 2002 16:48:54 -0500/ From: "Tim Johnson" <talk-lists2@civilnews.com>g Subject: Technical ForumsF" Message-ID: <5063206@MVB.SAIC.COM>   You are invited to join...  	 WaterTalkp	 StormTalka	 SewerTalk   > ..three new Technical Forums for water resource professionals.   These forums will keep you up-to-date with the latest tips and tricks in hydraulic and hydrologic modeling. Post your engineering questions and share your unique modeling experiences with a global audience of thousands of professionals. f  + Learn more and sign up at the link below...w/ http://www.haestad.com/e/m.asp?d=49&m=020404DGba    , Not part of the Civil Engineering community?  E Click the link below to remove info-vax@mvb.saic.com from our list...tG http://www.haestad.com/e/m.asp?d=27&e=info-vax@mvb.saic.com&m=020404DGbd  = Or, reply to this message and change the subject to " stop ".s   LSID: 11546-415264   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:11:39 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>nN Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan - from 1997 to 2004 - from Alpha to IA-64' Message-ID: <3CAD0A49.AC080B16@fsi.net>n   Rob Young wrote: > q > In article <H2Lq8.212632$Gf.19752528@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:c > >s: > > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote in messageP > > news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E1B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > > .. > >tK > >>>> The main thrust of the document was VMS's place in the corporation'sp > > overall strategy...<<< > >:) > > Well, you can think whatever you like: > >y > >@P > > Given the degree to which the language in the document was my own, I *know*. > >o > B >         And very easily located if bystanders wish to peruse and" >         form their own opinions: > U > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=921fl3%24pdv%241%40pyrite.mv.net&output=gplainn  F Perhaps the greatest public testimony to date that Capellas's interestB in VMS is at or near zero. Actions, as they say, speak louder than words.   -- o David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:21:34 -0500 From: Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com-' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan...0A Message-ID: <OFBE567815.8D352B3C-ON85256B91.0069A892@cca-int.com>R   John Smith wrote on 04 Apr '02:o  K | No offense intended when I wrote what I did. I was trying (unsuccessfully  itD | seems) to point out that almost all 'widely-used' commercial RDBMS products% | are no longer available on OpenVMS.t  : None taken, John.   Just a little peer-2-peer awareness...  K On the plus side, these posts have come to the attention of Sue S.  (sorry, D Sue, don't want to mangle your name), Kerry Main, and Ken Farmer (ofJ openvms.org), so we're listed at least two places more than before.  Can't hurt...o  K p.s. "Ten-twenty-too" is an urban legend.  Last time I checked, _nobody_ on-G the 1022 team could ever remember exactly _where_ the name came from...)   -Tym Stegner
 S1032 Support : Computer Corporation of America  ('Editor' of System 1032)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 07:29:59 +0200C( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>. Subject: Re: VMS on 533au Ultimate Workstation* Message-ID: <3CAD5277.48BC9B1F@bluewin.ch>   David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > Didier Morandi wrote:c > >:S > > Find a Firmware update CD, boot from it, apply the patch and Bob should be youra > > uncle :-)) > > > Is that a French expression that doesn't translate well into' > English/American, or what did I miss?m > 5 For the record, Bob was indeed someone's uncle. From:   ) http://www.word-detective.com/back-f.htmlp  H "Bob's your uncle" is a way of saying "you're all set" or "you've got itB made." It's a catch phrase dating back to 1887, when British PrimeB Minister Robert Cecil (a.k.a. Lord Salisbury) decided to appoint aE certain Arthur Balfour to the prestigious and sensitive post of ChiefeG Secretary for Ireland. Not lost on the British public was the fact thatsD Lord Salisbury just happened to be better known to Arthur Balfour asC "Uncle Bob." In the resulting furor over what was seen as an act of:G blatant nepotism, "Bob's your uncle" became a popular sarcastic commentd= applied to any situation where the outcome was preordained bygF favoritism. As the scandal faded in public memory, the phrase lost its0 edge and became just a synonym for "no problem."     __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandm   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:26:31 GMT * From: "David Cressey" <david@dcressey.com>% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreeo2 Message-ID: <HN1r8.3$Kt2.525@petpeeve.ziplink.net>  G The SE team that built VMS V1 had worked on RSTS-11, RSX-11, and RT-11.nF There were somewhat influenced by ideas that originated in TENEX,  akaA SNARK, aka TOPS-20.  And even by ideas that came through TOPS-10.)  I VMS was intellectually influenced by the Multics project at MIT.  MulticsM# also gave rise to Unix,  if only by I making two sets of hands idle.  I also believe that the name "Unix"  is aD play on "Multics".  L There is a large web page that documents the history of TOPS-20 pretty well.J It's written by Dan Murphy.  Before working on TENEX, Murphy had written a& compiler for the PDP-1 called DANTRAN.  I TOPS-10 was influenced by earlier work at MIT called CTSS (The Compatible L Timesharing System).  And you might want to check out ITS  (the Incompatible Timesharing System).  J I hope this helps, even though it lacks a lot of the detail that you need.     -- Regards,     David Cressey2     www.dcressey.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:48:24 GMT 0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreet9 Message-ID: <3cacc373.2065388451@proxy.news.easynews.com>i  C On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:35:19 +0200, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote:c  C >On the wall of the corridor of our office my Unix colleagues have  F >sticked the pedigree of today's Unix versions (Tru64, Solaris, HP UX B >etc.) It looks a bit like the drawing of a very big railway yard. >hI >Of course we can't stay behind, and I would like to add the pedigree of eI >VMS. Can anyone supply me with dates, products etc. ? Of course I would sJ >also like to know the names of products on the side-tracks, for instance 3 >DOS-11 > MS-Dos,  MS-Dos + VMS > Win-NT etc. :-) .s   Well, let's see....a   RSX-11M begat VAX/VMS. VAX/VMS was ported to Alpha., VMS was renamed OpenVMS as a marketing ploy.D VMS has been through 7 major versions so far.  Major milestones were=     - fully native utilities and RMS indexed files (VMS V1.5)a     - VAXclusters      - AMP (VAX-11/782) and SMP     - GalaxyF I've probably missed some, and I'll leave it to someone else to attach7 dates and the other versions to the feature milestones. # VMS is now being ported to Itanium.P  C The development has pretty much been linear.  VAXeln and Windows NT D share a major design engineer (David Cutler) with VAX/VMS version 1,F and hence there are some similarities in the internals, but nothing asE close as the RSX-11M relationship.  I'd put dotted lines between themd in any family tree.e  @ MS/DOS started out as a Microsoft rebranding of QDOS (Quick-and-B Dirty Operating System, which says it all about why MS/DOS was the. way it was), which IIRC was inspired by RT-11.  B Microsoft Windows was origially an application layer on MS/DOS andD took its inspiration from the Apple Macintosh, which in turn got its? design ideas from the Xerox Alto.  NT is a microkernel-based OS A that owes nothing to MS/DOS and is probably closer to VAXeln than @ to VAX/VMS.  A 32-bit port of MS Windows forms the windowing APIE layer on top of the NT kernel, and over time things have diffused and-> the strict layering present in NT version 3 has relaxed a lot.   
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:54:32 GMT30 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreel9 Message-ID: <3caccb9f.2067479478@proxy.news.easynews.com>m  F On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:26:31 GMT, "David Cressey" <david@dcressey.com> wrote:  H >The SE team that built VMS V1 had worked on RSTS-11, RSX-11, and RT-11.G >There were somewhat influenced by ideas that originated in TENEX,  akanB >SNARK, aka TOPS-20.  And even by ideas that came through TOPS-10.  A Mainly RSX-11M.  There wasn't much influence from the rest of thecC PDP-11 operating systems.  VMS started life essentially as RSX-32M.i  C There was downright hostility towards ideas from PDP-10 land in theg early days.   A >VMS was intellectually influenced by the Multics project at MIT.g  & As were most modern operating systems.  
 >  Multics$ >also gave rise to Unix,  if only byJ >making two sets of hands idle.  I also believe that the name "Unix"  is a >play on "Multics".E   Yup.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 00:20:12 +0200=B From: Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreeo6 Message-ID: <3CACD19C.AE6@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>   Dirk Munk wrote: > C > On the wall of the corridor of our office my Unix colleagues have F > sticked the pedigree of today's Unix versions (Tru64, Solaris, HP UXC > etc.) It looks a bit like the drawing of a very big railway yard.0 > G > Of course we can't stay behind, and I would like to add the pedigree a= > of VMS. Can anyone supply me with dates, products etc. ?  .o  E http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.htmls  G And David Millers book "VAX/VMS operating system concepts" chapter ten t0 lists the history of Digital operating systems.    -- n ME Posted by news://news.nb.nun   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 05:02:43 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreetB Message-ID: <Tdar8.194021$7b.19444842@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  = "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in messagen3 news:3cacc373.2065388451@proxy.news.easynews.com...u   ...    > VAXeln and Windows NT F > share a major design engineer (David Cutler) with VAX/VMS version 1,H > and hence there are some similarities in the internals, but nothing as$ > close as the RSX-11M relationship.  C Indeed.  I couldn't suppress a grin when Fred mentioned recently ineI comp.arch that the registers VMS saves and uses initially on servicing anh interrupt are R3, R4, and R5.d   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Apr 2002 06:15:31 GMTs) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)nG Subject: What OS Was www.openvms.digital.com Running On n 22-Sep-1998 ?r' Message-ID: <a8jfe3$jlq$1@joe.rice.edu>o Keywords: vms,september,1998  < What operating system was www.openvms.digital.com running on< September 22, 1998, the day that the OpenVMS home page read:  @   "OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"  * Was it OpenVMS, Digital Unix, or Windows ?  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:21:35 -05001- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ..._, Message-ID: <3CACA7B9.82461565@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > M > Perhaps there are people who don't like her management style, why does this-K > translate over into HP and their product set?  I can understand MPE userscN > not being happy.  But I also am led to believe (by public comments) that theD > user base had dwindled to the point that it couldn't be sustained.  H *IF* Capellas had issued a similar statement to justify the killing of aJ product, do you think that folks on the HP side would have believed them ?  L Remember that Compaq used a similar argument to justify the killing of AlphaB even though Alpha was still generating more business that it cost.  L Perhaps it is because as folks who have been VMS *customers* for so long, weI have learned to distrust everything that Digital/Compaq/HP management sayaA because we have been screwed with broken promises too many times.   L No offense meant, but I think you are naive for accepting Carly's excuse forK killing MPE. It is very possible that MPE was still generating profits, butrM not growing, and some management are told in business school to kill products . that aren't growing since they have no future.  L Please note that the Carly and Curly show is designed to allow HP to grow toF compete against IBM, or so they hope. If Growth is the main goal, thenL products which will not contribute to that growth will not be seen as "core"1 and HP will have no problems getting rid of them.   N Wintel companies such as HP and Compaq are at a loss because they have no clueL on how to regain the ridiculously high growth rates they had during the .COMS and Y2K bubble. Only way Carly found to achieve that growth is to eat Compaq alive.-  N Of course, this merger will result in a gigantic downsizing because the marketM isn't growing anymore and HP will essentially return to its current size once1: it has done away with all the fat it acquired from Compaq.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:32:23 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>W1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...e3 Message-ID: <bZ1r8.1897$fL6.37707@news.cpqcorp.net>c  7 As always, not speaking for Compaq or VMS management...S  K At what point do you cut something loose?  I don't think there are hard and K fast rules.  But if something is shrinking or not growing, then you have toTK look at it's profitability - and simple making a profit may not be enough -I4 you may have a margin goal, or some absolute number.  K VMS has and will continue to face the very same issues as MPE.  But VMS had.L stopped its decline, and begun to grow, and has always had high margins, and a respectable absolute number.  J We - both VMS engineering and management, and our customers - can continueG that trend by continuing that growth and profitability - with Alpha EV6n) today, and EV7 soon, and IA64 eventually.l  E Or we fail to execute the plan (which is the part VMS engineering canDK control) or you can stop buying VMS systems.  In which case, I would expectaL to eventually see VMS put into maintenance mode.  When?  I don't know.  WhenH there is no growth, just a shrinking customer base, and when the marginsH and/or the absolute number of dollars grows so small that it isn't worth/ trying to find a way to fit it into a strategy.n  K Buy enough VMS systems, and it will become an important part of the company ; strategy.  Nothing drives strategy like growth and profits.l  L I can't possibly tell you the facts of MPE.  I don't know them except what II hear in the funny papers.  But it sounds as if this is the end of a long,sJ slow decline.  I hear people saying HP or Carly "lied" about it's future -K but I can easily believe that she, and the people running things still wereaE hoping against hope for a turnaround.  All it would take is a serious-C decline in the business to cause them to *have* to re-evaluate thataK position.  That is there job.  And it's the same for ALL products, from ANY J company.  People can promise you only what they believe based on the facts they have at the time.  L The facts (IMHO) right now for VMS is that there is no impending collapse ofL the business, and that we have a plan to get us to the end of the decade andJ beyond - which is a long, long time.  If we can execute against it, and ifH we can convince our customers that VMS has a value to them, and that ourJ hardware roadmap will satisfy their needs - then I think all will be well.  G If you buy-into the concept that we are already in a death-spiral, theniG there is no point in conversation - all you can do is to tell people to F abandon ship - and make sure that your prophesy is fulfilled.  NothingB anyone can say could change your mind, incuding Carly and/or Mike.      = JF Mezei wrote in message <3CACA7B9.82461565@videotron.ca>...: >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>I >> Perhaps there are people who don't like her management style, why doesT thisL >> translate over into HP and their product set?  I can understand MPE usersK >> not being happy.  But I also am led to believe (by public comments) that  theTE >> user base had dwindled to the point that it couldn't be sustained.  >hI >*IF* Capellas had issued a similar statement to justify the killing of aaK >product, do you think that folks on the HP side would have believed them ?u >uG >Remember that Compaq used a similar argument to justify the killing ofl Alpha C >even though Alpha was still generating more business that it cost.e >aJ >Perhaps it is because as folks who have been VMS *customers* for so long, weJ >have learned to distrust everything that Digital/Compaq/HP management sayB >because we have been screwed with broken promises too many times. >eI >No offense meant, but I think you are naive for accepting Carly's excuse2 for L >killing MPE. It is very possible that MPE was still generating profits, butE >not growing, and some management are told in business school to kill7 products/ >that aren't growing since they have no future.g >DJ >Please note that the Carly and Curly show is designed to allow HP to grow toG >compete against IBM, or so they hope. If Growth is the main goal, thenaF >products which will not contribute to that growth will not be seen as "core"2 >and HP will have no problems getting rid of them. >aJ >Wintel companies such as HP and Compaq are at a loss because they have no clueH >on how to regain the ridiculously high growth rates they had during the .COMF >and Y2K bubble. Only way Carly found to achieve that growth is to eat
 Compaq alive.g >eH >Of course, this merger will result in a gigantic downsizing because the marketI >isn't growing anymore and HP will essentially return to its current size  once; >it has done away with all the fat it acquired from Compaq..   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:21:45 -0500p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...o, Message-ID: <3CACB5CE.501F8EBD@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > VMS has and will continue to face the very same issues as MPE.  But VMS had-N > stopped its decline, and begun to grow, and has always had high margins, and  > a respectable absolute number.  I The issue is whether that "growth" was only the result of the short livedcI "renaissance" where a bit of marketing was allowed, or whether that shorthK renaissance did re-ignite long term growth. My gut tells me that it will beuL seen as a blip and that the long term downward trend begun in the late 1980s will continue.  K The issue isn't whether it would be possible to push, grow and justify VMS'uL existance. The issue is how easy is it for someone with an agenda to produceM statistics that show that VMS is on a long term decline with no potential and'2 thus convince the Carly and Curly show to kill it.  K When you listen to people like Winkler who seem to have full support of the H Carly and Curly show, the "people with an agenda" issue becomes serious.H Remember all the decisions that have been taken over the years to please Microsoft and Intel.  M Perhaps the Renaissance was considered a failure because it failed to achieve0N double digit growth and thus VMS was not considered a candidate as part of theL "core" products. (even though, one would have to be impressed that so littleL marketing was able to achieve a double digit CHANGE (from negative growth to' close to double digit positive growth).   H The fact remains that the "Renaissance" was short lived is is long gone.  L > We - both VMS engineering and management, and our customers - can continueI > that trend by continuing that growth and profitability - with Alpha EV6k+ > today, and EV7 soon, and IA64 eventually.y  M IA64 will not generate growth. It will generate slowdown of sales because you J are forcing customers to go through the effort of a port, it will generateH some confusion on which products are to be ported, what licence transfer1 issues there will be etc etc, as it did with VAX.t  G Afterwards, since IA64 systems will be at a performance disadvantage totN competitors such as IBM, VMS won't have any performance edge. So VMS will have4 to live on marketing and software superiority alone.  N HP might tolerate VMS' as long as it generates profits. But if VMS doesn't getL serious marketing to get it through the difficult period of platform switch,I it will fail to attract customers, it will fail to attract ISVs. And more L importantly, if HP continues the "ignore VMS" policy that Compaq was so good& at, fear of VMS' demise will continue.    M > Buy enough VMS systems, and it will become an important part of the company8= > strategy.  Nothing drives strategy like growth and profits.V  I While the above is logical for a normal company, it does not apply to thebI likes of Palmer's Digital, or Compaq or HP. Their focus is on growing theeJ Wintel market into new markets. That means stealing customers from VMS andL Unix. Only a certain percentage of the remaining VMS customers are dedicatedO enough to *fight* against the Compaq/HP sales critters to generate a VMS sale. l  L Until HP starts to actively sell and market VMS to new customers, you cannot expect it to grow.  D > If you buy-into the concept that we are already in a death-spiral,  K The problem is that nobody knows what will happen with VMS. Carly and Culry Q have purposefully avoided dealing with its future since the merger was announced.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:59:09 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>-1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...m3 Message-ID: <we3r8.1902$fL6.37995@news.cpqcorp.net>p  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3CACB5CE.501F8EBD@videotron.ca>...l >Fred Kleinsorge wrote::J >> VMS has and will continue to face the very same issues as MPE.  But VMS had K >> stopped its decline, and begun to grow, and has always had high margins,h andl! >> a respectable absolute number.n >cJ >The issue is whether that "growth" was only the result of the short livedJ >"renaissance" where a bit of marketing was allowed, or whether that shortL >renaissance did re-ignite long term growth. My gut tells me that it will beG >seen as a blip and that the long term downward trend begun in the lateI 1980ss >will continue.n >t  L Well, the only way to change that is to change *your* mind, or at least stop8 you from convincing others that this is or will be true.  L >The issue isn't whether it would be possible to push, grow and justify VMS'E >existance. The issue is how easy is it for someone with an agenda tom produce J >statistics that show that VMS is on a long term decline with no potential andu3 >thus convince the Carly and Curly show to kill it.  >e  L The time to kill VMS was when we announced that we would stop new Alpha (EV8G and beyond) development.  EVERYTHING that I have heard on the grapevineI1 tells me that VMS is in good shape in the new HP.n   > F >Perhaps the Renaissance was considered a failure because it failed to achieve K >double digit growth and thus VMS was not considered a candidate as part ofn the F >"core" products. (even though, one would have to be impressed that so littleJ >marketing was able to achieve a double digit CHANGE (from negative growth to( >close to double digit positive growth). >bI >The fact remains that the "Renaissance" was short lived is is long gone.i >s  G The Renaissance was not a failure, nor is it viewed as such.  The AlphaiJ decision wasn't driven by the VMS business.  It wasn't short-lived, nor isI it gone.  The events that occured in Q2/Q3 of last year, including 9/11 -nL have had an industry wide impact.  We are showing a steady improvement sinceE then, despite the fact the rest of the industry hasn't turned around.t  D >> We - both VMS engineering and management, and our customers - can continueJ >> that trend by continuing that growth and profitability - with Alpha EV6, >> today, and EV7 soon, and IA64 eventually. >MJ >IA64 will not generate growth. It will generate slowdown of sales because youSK >are forcing customers to go through the effort of a port, it will generateTI >some confusion on which products are to be ported, what licence transfer 2 >issues there will be etc etc, as it did with VAX. >   I Maybe yes, and maybe no.  VAX->Alpha was a problem because by the time wei- did it, we had a non-competetive HW platform.b  I We lived through this once, and I think/hope we will do a better job thisuJ time.  Most of our Alpha customers should have nearly no "porting" issues, but mostly just qual.   H >Afterwards, since IA64 systems will be at a performance disadvantage toJ >competitors such as IBM, VMS won't have any performance edge. So VMS will have5 >to live on marketing and software superiority alone.s >a  C IA64 comes in when we don't, and it will be there in parallel as aneF alternative, and potentially as a cheaper low-end.  EV7 will be highlyE competetive for a long time, and by the time it isn't, I believe IA64 * systems will have become very competetive.  C Sun is the #1 UNIX vendor - it *isn't* on the strength of their HW.c  K >HP might tolerate VMS' as long as it generates profits. But if VMS doesn't. getiE >serious marketing to get it through the difficult period of platform  switch,oJ >it will fail to attract customers, it will fail to attract ISVs. And moreH >importantly, if HP continues the "ignore VMS" policy that Compaq was so good' >at, fear of VMS' demise will continue.n >   H You are just spinning the worst-case scenerio.  And yes, if VMS fails toK generate profits, then we will be in a world of hurt.  So keep buying thosea systems.   >sF >> Buy enough VMS systems, and it will become an important part of the companyt> >> strategy.  Nothing drives strategy like growth and profits. > J >While the above is logical for a normal company, it does not apply to theJ >likes of Palmer's Digital, or Compaq or HP. Their focus is on growing theK >Wintel market into new markets. That means stealing customers from VMS and1C >Unix. Only a certain percentage of the remaining VMS customers arei	 dedicated I >enough to *fight* against the Compaq/HP sales critters to generate a VMSd sale.s >   J Actually, I think the strategy is to steal customers from Sun, and capture general market growth.  F >Until HP starts to actively sell and market VMS to new customers, you cannot >expect it to grow.' >u  A Give us, and them a chance.  We *are* selling to *new* customers.g  E >> If you buy-into the concept that we are already in a death-spiral,4 >nL >The problem is that nobody knows what will happen with VMS. Carly and CulryG >have purposefully avoided dealing with its future since the merger wasw
 announced.  L Carly and Mike have lots of large issues to deal with, I'm sure that this is  just one of them on their plate.  K But even if Carly were to send out a letter to you - I have to believe that8C this would just provoke more complaints that she can't be believed.t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 13:45:19 -0800n. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...-= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0204041345.2586ca1d@posting.google.com>i  p "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<NzZq8.1865$fL6.37332@news.cpqcorp.net>...J > Ah, sorry.  There was a metaphoric "her" - "the morally bankrupt tramp".M > Nothing personal or sexist.  Yup.  No problem.  It wasn't responding to thetJ > sentence above it, and refering to "her" or to [abortion] in relation to> > "Carly's baby".  Yup.  No problem.  I read too much into it.     Wait a minute.    C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CABB877.A2CBF449@fsi.net>...r > >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:i > >>F > >> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CAA7950.35775270@fsi.net>... > >> > >> >J > >> >It isn't Carly's "baby" until the results of the HP votes are known. > >> >N > >> >...and at 20+ years, I believe that would constitute O.S.-cide, not justL > >> >another spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp exercising her9 > >> >"right" to attack and destroy a defenseless unborn.e    C Let's see. In sentence 1 you explicitly say "Carly's baby". Then infB the very next sentence you say "... her ... a defenseless unborn".@ Therefore, "her" is a pronoun referring to Carly and unborn must' therefore be referring to Carly's baby.a    K > >> What is with you?  Do you have some personal insight into Carly (and Ih >  onlyoM > >> call her Carly because I can never remember how to spell her last name)?oL > >> Where do you get off calling her (I don't see another subject you could >  bedH > >> talking about) a "spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp". > >>N > >> In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone it's CEO.8 > >> What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred? > >nK > >I think you're reading a context into that which doesn't actually exist. K > >Read it again and you'll find that nowhere do I actually refer to anyoneuK > >by name. The entire statement, like the statement to which if refers, is' > >metaphoric, not accusatory.    F You refer to Carly and her baby in the previous sentence! So I believe! Fred got it right the first time.-     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman4" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:43:06 -0500c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>L1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...n, Message-ID: <3CACD6F8.DB80E778@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:N > The time to kill VMS was when we announced that we would stop new Alpha (EV8 > and beyond) development.    N No. the time to kill VMS will be when a migration path will be defined, as wasM the case when they announced that Tru64 users would be expected to migrate tolJ HP-UX. This is why the secret 3 year product roadmap is so important to be made public.  K > We lived through this once, and I think/hope we will do a better job this.L > time.  Most of our Alpha customers should have nearly no "porting" issues, > but mostly just qual.g  L 1- HP hasn't gone thorugh the VAX-Alpha migration.  So it isn't a given that HP will know how to handle it.  N 2- While on the technical side, you may do a great job, it still requires thatN customers start a large and expensive porting project with migration strategy,N negotiations with HP on hardware and software licenses, ensuring all 3rd party9 layered products are available on the IA64 thing etc etc.l  H > alternative, and potentially as a cheaper low-end.  EV7 will be highlyG > competetive for a long time, and by the time it isn't, I believe IA64o, > systems will have become very competetive.  N You won't get new Alpha customers for long term VMS applications. You will getM some super-cumputer folks for Tru64 because they need the raw power today andB; don't care that their machine will be worthless in 3 years.   E > Sun is the #1 UNIX vendor - it *isn't* on the strength of their HW.a  > It is marketing and pricing. Two areas where VMS is very weak.  L > Actually, I think the strategy is to steal customers from Sun, and capture > general market growth.  I But if you were allowed to steal customers from wintel, you'd have a MUCHhK LARGER potential market. And this is where VMS would shine most because youtD could really sell the scalability and reliability to people who have' experience with unreliable wintel crap.   N > Carly and Mike have lots of large issues to deal with, I'm sure that this is" > just one of them on their plate.  M I am not sure that it is an issue to Carly. And it is exactly because she has D much more important issue to deal with that she may not have time toG focus/learn much about VMS and that raises the risk of harsh decisions.i  M > But even if Carly were to send out a letter to you - I have to believe thatnE > this would just provoke more complaints that she can't be believed.d  L All that is needed is for the CEO to say what their plans are for VMS on CNNK or other national TV network during evening business news, or start visibleAI advertising. If she sends me a letter with a vanilla "we will continue totC support VMS in the foreseable future", it means absolutely nothing.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 23:28:06 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...>F Message-ID: <ak5r8.9804$0r1.8509@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CACD6F8.DB80E778@videotron.ca... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >dK > 2- While on the technical side, you may do a great job, it still requiresj thatF > customers start a large and expensive porting project with migration	 strategy,tJ > negotiations with HP on hardware and software licenses, ensuring all 3rd partyo; > layered products are available on the IA64 thing etc etc./  F Agreed, JF. But the big issue with 3rd party stuff is whether existingC apps/dbms/tool products will be oprted to VMS/IA-64 and whether anyfL 3rd-party products that aren't currently VMS-aware will be ported. Without aJ renaissance in available 3rd-party stuff for VMS/IA-64, existing/potentialF customers will have a wider set of choices with other o/s and hardware
 combinations.e     > J > > alternative, and potentially as a cheaper low-end.  EV7 will be highlyI > > competetive for a long time, and by the time it isn't, I believe IA64a. > > systems will have become very competetive.  G I begged Palmer and his successors to price Alpha ahead of the learning ) curve so as to boost sales volume. No go.a    L > You won't get new Alpha customers for long term VMS applications. You will gethK > some super-cumputer folks for Tru64 because they need the raw power todayo ando= > don't care that their machine will be worthless in 3 years.  >s  H And eventually all the castoff Alpha's will be picked up for clusters byL customers who will not move to IA-64 because the 3rd-part software their app< is based on (Sybase, etc....) doesn't have a VMS/IA-64 port.    G > > Sun is the #1 UNIX vendor - it *isn't* on the strength of their HW.F >z@ > It is marketing and pricing. Two areas where VMS is very weak.  ? This is at least 20 years old - if only DEC had IBM's marketing  department.....     K > But if you were allowed to steal customers from wintel, you'd have a MUCH I > LARGER potential market. And this is where VMS would shine most becauseg youaF > could really sell the scalability and reliability to people who have) > experience with unreliable wintel crap.   L You bet. Maybe the profitable side of the business should be the one that is@ required to make the first pitch/soultion proposal to customers.      H > > Carly and Mike have lots of large issues to deal with, I'm sure that this isl$ > > just one of them on their plate.  + About $117 million of them, by last reportsV   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:05:48 GMTo1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>g1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ... ' Message-ID: <3CAD08EA.E72C383E@fsi.net>h   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > r > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<NzZq8.1865$fL6.37332@news.cpqcorp.net>...L > > Ah, sorry.  There was a metaphoric "her" - "the morally bankrupt tramp".O > > Nothing personal or sexist.  Yup.  No problem.  It wasn't responding to the L > > sentence above it, and refering to "her" or to [abortion] in relation to@ > > "Carly's baby".  Yup.  No problem.  I read too much into it. >  > Wait a minute. > E > > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CABB877.A2CBF449@fsi.net>...i > > >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  > > >>H > > >> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CAA7950.35775270@fsi.net>... > > >> > > >> >L > > >> >It isn't Carly's "baby" until the results of the HP votes are known. > > >> >P > > >> >...and at 20+ years, I believe that would constitute O.S.-cide, not justN > > >> >another spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp exercising her; > > >> >"right" to attack and destroy a defenseless unborn.g > E > Let's see. In sentence 1 you explicitly say "Carly's baby". Then inrD > the very next sentence you say "... her ... a defenseless unborn".B > Therefore, "her" is a pronoun referring to Carly and unborn must) > therefore be referring to Carly's baby.t > M > > >> What is with you?  Do you have some personal insight into Carly (and In	 > >  onlyaO > > >> call her Carly because I can never remember how to spell her last name)?pN > > >> Where do you get off calling her (I don't see another subject you could > >  beoJ > > >> talking about) a "spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp". > > >>P > > >> In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone it's CEO.: > > >> What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred? > > >SM > > >I think you're reading a context into that which doesn't actually exist.tM > > >Read it again and you'll find that nowhere do I actually refer to anyonerM > > >by name. The entire statement, like the statement to which if refers, isp  > > >metaphoric, not accusatory. > H > You refer to Carly and her baby in the previous sentence! So I believe# > Fred got it right the first time.   G ...except that the whole thing is still a metaphor: "baby" = "product", G "abortion" = "o.s.-cide". Substitue names and/or personal references asa@ you like, the result is the same. No accusations, just metaphor.  H The derrogations are drawn from my own violent disgust over a topic thatG I won't go into here; however, they are still a metaphoric reference tolF the collegiate quality business logic that has stuffed both Compaq and1 HP down the crapper (YAM - Yet Another Metaphor).-   Got it now?   ' Re: "collegiate quality business logic"   E There was a film called, "The Last Unicorn" quite a while back (I wascE still living at home, so that's circa. 20 years back) where in a kingtE had the services of a master magician, but was not satisfied with theF@ master's display. When the opportunity presented itself, he saidG something to the effect of (it was too long ago for a quote): "A master F magician has not made me happy. I will see what an incompetent one can do."  = These so-called "masters" of business "administration" (read:lH "disintegration") have not "made the stock holders happy". Perhaps it isG time to see what any old mope off the street can do. Frankly, I think auG cat with a crayon in its mouth could do a better job of directing theser two companies...   -- I David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:07:18 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ... 3 Message-ID: <Mu8r8.1917$fL6.38118@news.cpqcorp.net>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3CAD08EA.E72C383E@fsi.net...h > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > >nD > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message/ news:<NzZq8.1865$fL6.37332@news.cpqcorp.net>...lF > > > Ah, sorry.  There was a metaphoric "her" - "the morally bankrupt tramp".sJ > > > Nothing personal or sexist.  Yup.  No problem.  It wasn't responding to theK > > > sentence above it, and refering to "her" or to [abortion] in relation  toB > > > "Carly's baby".  Yup.  No problem.  I read too much into it. > >o > > Wait a minute. > >HG > > > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CABB877.A2CBF449@fsi.net>...  > > > >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:" > > > >>J > > > >> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CAA7950.35775270@fsi.net>... > > > >>
 > > > >> >G > > > >> >It isn't Carly's "baby" until the results of the HP votes aret known.
 > > > >> >I > > > >> >...and at 20+ years, I believe that would constitute O.S.-cide,n not justL > > > >> >another spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp exercising her = > > > >> >"right" to attack and destroy a defenseless unborn.W > >oG > > Let's see. In sentence 1 you explicitly say "Carly's baby". Then intF > > the very next sentence you say "... her ... a defenseless unborn".D > > Therefore, "her" is a pronoun referring to Carly and unborn must+ > > therefore be referring to Carly's baby.s > >uH > > > >> What is with you?  Do you have some personal insight into Carly (and I > > >  onlyoJ > > > >> call her Carly because I can never remember how to spell her last name)?J > > > >> Where do you get off calling her (I don't see another subject you coulda	 > > >  becL > > > >> talking about) a "spineless, unprincipled, morally bankrupt tramp". > > > >>H > > > >> In fact, I don't really get the hostility against HP, let alone	 it's CEO.c< > > > >> What exactly have they done to warrent such hatred? > > > > H > > > >I think you're reading a context into that which doesn't actually exist.H > > > >Read it again and you'll find that nowhere do I actually refer to anyoneL > > > >by name. The entire statement, like the statement to which if refers, is" > > > >metaphoric, not accusatory. > >aJ > > You refer to Carly and her baby in the previous sentence! So I believe% > > Fred got it right the first time.  >eI > ...except that the whole thing is still a metaphor: "baby" = "product",uI > "abortion" = "o.s.-cide". Substitue names and/or personal references asiB > you like, the result is the same. No accusations, just metaphor. > J > The derrogations are drawn from my own violent disgust over a topic thatI > I won't go into here; however, they are still a metaphoric reference tosH > the collegiate quality business logic that has stuffed both Compaq and3 > HP down the crapper (YAM - Yet Another Metaphor).n >n
 > Got it now?  >t  F What was the part of the metaphor that dealt with being a tramp (and aL morally bankrupt one at that)?  I'm almost up to speed now.  Bear with me, I/ couldn't follow the plot of Eraser Head either.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 15:33:02 -0800t( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...o= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204041533.32407e84@posting.google.com>e  m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0204031745.51c9a23b@posting.google.com>...OF > Some here have contended that because TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS isH > based on Tru64 Unix code, it is thus subject to the same level of risk; > of buffer-overflow exploits as any Unix system out there.c > A > After a bit of investigation, I've discovered that VMS on AlpharF > appears to be immune to these common smash-the-stack buffer overflow
 > attacks. > F > For a buffer-overflow exploit to succeed, then, the hacker must knowA > the address size of the the target architecture (for the returnpF > address), the format of the stack frame used by the architecture and> > the compiler (to know where to put that return address), theH > instruction set of the target architecture (so he can create his smallH > program), and enough about the innards of the operating system for hisA > program to be able to do something useful once it is executing.  >  lH > Here is where excellent and fortuitous engineering design comes to theF > rescue.  The Alpha memory management architecture provides some bitsF > in the Page Table Entries (PTEs) that control what type of access isG > allowed to memory.  For example, a read-only page can be protected by1F > having the Fault-On-Write bit set, and any attempt to write the pageG > causes a fault and results in a memory access violation error.  Alpha H > also has a Fault-On-Execute bit, designed to prevent an errant program? > from jumping off into the weeds and trying to execute data asgF > instructions.  On Alpha/VMS, the user stack is mapped with PTEs thatG > have the Fault-On-Execute bit set, so any attempt to branch into dataiC > area on the stack results in an access violation, and the processB > dies.F > A > So Alpha VMS is immune to common stack-smashing buffer-overflowe
 > attacks. > 0 > ----------------------------------------------0 > Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org  C and I have a perfect example of this ... from process softwares webt site,lD versions of tcpware/multinet on vms were either not affected or gave access, violations ... care to reply to this Andrew?    ( SNMP Inquiry - Cert Advisory CA-2002-03 P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  	 Question:n  D Are either MultiNet or TCPware affected by CERT Advisory CA-2002-03A in Many Implementations of the Simple Network Management Protocol   (SNMP), dated February 12, 2002?   Answer:o  F These SNMP vulnerabilities do NOT pose security risks for MultiNet andF TCPware. MultiNet V4.4A is not vulnerable to these SNMP issues at all.D MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware have minor problems with access violationsA (resulting in the SNMP process dying), but pose no security risk. C Patches for MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3 are available from theyE TCPware ECO Database and the MultiNet ECO database. Use the followinga
 kit names:   MultiNet V4.3A: SNMP-020_A043e TCPware V5.5-3: SNMPD_V553P011  Post a follow-up to this message   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:23:44 GMTb# From: ualski <ualski@earthlink.net>e= Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up)r- Message-ID: <3CAD26C4.49E4C155@earthlink.net>p  
 ualski wrote:  >  > Tom Linden wrote:  > >   > > > -----Original Message-----5 > > > From: Bob Ceculski [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]c- > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 5:46 PMh > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr3 > > > Subject: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ...:K > > If the hacker is able to determine the stack frame slot with the returndM > > address, why couldn't he also modify the stack allocation instruction andcA > > insert his trojan horse in code space and execute from there?  > J > It would be difficult to execute instructions to change memory in a codeJ > space using the described method. Should the cracker (ok, hacker if he'sK > doing it on his own machine just for fun) somehow gets code to execute on ; > the stack, executable sections are not usually writeable./ > M > Try it with a C program, get a pointer to the entry point of a function andeI > try to change that first byte.I haven't tried this but you might make a K > small array or whatever on the stack, put some code in it and try to callt > it. My bet is it won't work.   Just to illustrate my point:  "               1 #include <stdio.h>             874 8             875 void xyzzy(void) { printf("xyzzy!\n"); }             876P2             877 int main( int argc, char *argv[] )       1     878     {s)       1     879         unsigned char *x; 3       1     880         x = (unsigned char *)xyzzy;.-       1     881         ((void(*)(void))x)();t"       1     882         *x = 0x00;"       1     883         return(1);             884     }    when run produces:   $ r xr xyzzy!M %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtual address=00000208,a PC=0000024F, PSL=03C00000 / %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows L module name     routine name                     line       rel PC    abs PC  M X               main                              882      00000033  0000024Fa $   K Check the attributes of the $CODE section. It's NOWRT and the (empty) $DATA J section is NOEXE.  Static variables go in $DATA. I don't know offhand whatJ the stack area looks like but I suspect it's NOEXE too. This boils down toL what's been said earlier, normally code can't be written over and data can't be executed.  P Psect Name      Module Name       Base     End           Length            Align                 AttributesP ----------      -----------       ----     ---           ------            -----                 ----------O $DATA                           00000200 00000200 00000000 (          0.) LONG o4 2   PIC,USR,CON,REL,LCL,NOSHR,NOEXE,  RD,  WRT,NOVECQ                 X               00000200 00000200 00000000 (          0.) LONG  2   O $CODE                           00000200 00000271 00000072 (        114.) QUAD e4 3   PIC,USR,CON,REL,LCL,  SHR,  EXE,  RD,NOWRT,NOVECQ                 X               00000200 00000271 00000072 (        114.) QUAD  3    -- Aaron Sliwinski   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:27:21 GMT"+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>s+ Subject: Re: WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002 * Message-ID: <3CACC993.31C5F8E@ins-msi.com>  G For those of us who like to drive  (8-) and might want to show up, just:: exactly where and when are the "(regular time and place)"?  
 Jeff Campbelln n8wxs@arrl.net   "Joe H. Gallagher" wrote:e > . > Final Announcement of April 9th WRUG Meeting > (regular time and place) > Western Reserve Users Group . > Northeast Ohio Local User Group of Encompass >  > Topic: Oracle 9i > 9 >   What's behind the "Unbreakable" marketing hype?  What @ >   technologies does Oracle use to provide 99.999% availability= >   higher? What is Real Application Clusters and how does it = >   differ from other clustering solutions?  The truth behindg> >   performance benchmarks -- how does Oracle stack up against1 >   other databases as to real world performance?/ > ) > Speaker: Jack Crail, Oracle Corporation  > 7 >   Jack Crail is a Senior Sales Consultant with Oraclea= >   Corporation.  Before joining Oracle seven years ago, Jacki= >   was an Oracle DBA at two major companies in the Clevelandn= >   area.  With his extensive real world experience, Jack hasi@ >   been the featured speaker for Oracle at many seminars across8 >   the country and spends most of his time working with@ >   customers to successfully implement Oracle solutions. Topic: >   Informal Discussionc > = > Topic: A distributed Town Meeting of Encompass LUGs to giveN+ >        feedback to {HP,Compaq,Encompass}.r > 9 >   The outcome of the March 19th HP stockholders vote isc: >   still in doubt.  The vote is being contested in court.; >   Whatever the results, members of Encompass and users ofn? >   Compaq Enterprise computing equipment will be significantlyp
 >   affected.u > 6 >   The purpose of this session is to give feedback to >   {HP,Compaq,Encompass} to > 7 >    1. get {HP,Compaq} to re-engage their customers as  >       quickly as possibleo= >    2. influence {HP,Compaq} during this critical transitiont >       period; >    3. demonstrate and re-affirm the value of Encompass asr9 >       a valuable communications resource to {HP,Compaq} : >    4. steer a course for Encompass during these critical >       times. > ? >   This session will be recorded, transcribed, and turned overs= >   to (national) Encompass to collate and analyze along withb< >   the feedback from Town Meetings at other LUGs during the= >   weeks after the stockholder's vote.  You should expect too> >   give your feedback "on-the-record."  However, you may make >   your comments anonymously. > 9 >   Customers, consultants, and partners (such as Oracle,s= >   Pioneer-Standard, Great Lakes Computer) are encouraged tou >   address the issues.y > ? >   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS APPROVED: address the following ' >   questions/issues and respond to HP:e > 8 >   * Given that you have already lived thru the mergers< >     of Compaq, Digital, and Tandum, what can and should beA >     learned from the previous mergers which would be applicabler> >     to the HP-Compaq merger?  What was done correctly?  What" >     could have been done better? > : >   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterprise? >     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment,g> >     stability/predictibility, support for particular product$ >     lines, credibility/trust, etc. > 7 >   * What are your concerns regarding the relationshipt8 >     between HP and Intel and between HP and Microsoft?> >     Are there other relationships which should be addressed? > 5 >   * What are the your concerns about the dependance7< >     (over-dependance) of the combined company on PC sales?< >     [Arguments raised by those opposing the merger.]  What& >     should HP do about these issues? > B >   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS DISAPPROVED: address the following+ >   questions/issues and respond to Compaq:h > : >   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterprise? >     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment,"> >     stability/predictibility, support for particular product >     lines, etc.  > 7 >   * What are your concerns regarding the relationshipu@ >     between Compaq and Intel and between Compaq and Microsoft?= >     Are their other relationship which should be addressed?n > 1 >   * What are your concerns about the dependance < >     (over-dependance) of Compaq on PC sales?  That is, are: >     PC sales adversely affecting Compaq's support of our. >     Enterprise computing and related issues? > > >   INDEPENDENT OF APPROVAL/DISAPPROVAL OF THE MERGER: address< >   the following questions/issues and respond to Encompass: > < >   * What should Encompass be doing to increase membership? > < >   * What services should Encompass be offering to members? > ; >   * What should be the relationship with ITUG and Interexa >     (the HP user group)? >  > Date:h >   Tuesday, April 9, 2002 > Time:t >   3:00 to 6:00 PMi > Location:p >   near the Compaq office ato >   Summit Conference Center
 >   1st floor  >   Three Summit Park Drived >   Independance, Ohio > ' >   A map to the bottom of the hill is:tf >   http://www.vicinity.com/av2000/map.mb?CMD=GEO?AD2=3+Summit+Park+Drive?AD3=Independence%2C+OH?GMI=1B >   The office is at the top of the hill at the end of the street. > 
 > Directions:tD >   From the area of the interchange of I-480 and I-77, go south and  >   take the Rockside Road exit. > = >   At the bottom of the ramp, turn right (west) on Rockside.i > 9 >   Go west one block; turn left (south) on Summit Drive.Y > C >   Summit 3 is at the top of the hill on the right (west). Parkings) >   is on the north side of the building.a > A >   The front entrance (on the east side) is on level 2. The rear . >   entrance (on the west side) is on level 1. >  > Future meeting dates >   June 11, 2002s >   August 13, 2002r5 >   October 22, 2002 (4th Tuesday to avoid CETS-2002)a >   December 10, 2002f > ( > See the (updated) WRUG LUG Web site at > & >   http://eisner.decus.org/lugs/wrug/ >  > Joe H. Gallagher > Chairman, WRUG LUG > dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Apr 2002 18:52 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)i+ Subject: Re: WRUG LUG Meeting April 9, 2002t, Message-ID: <4APR200218520605@gerg.tamu.edu>  / Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> writes...nH }For those of us who like to drive  (8-) and might want to show up, just; }exactly where and when are the "(regular time and place)"?P }  }Jeff Campbell }n8wxs@arrl.nett  F For those who are literate, drivers or not, the post includes sectionsJ labeled "Date" and "Time", which give the date and time, "Location", whichG gives the location including the URL for a map, and "Directions", whichc2 gives directions on how to get there when driving.   --- Carl   }"Joe H. Gallagher" wrote: }> E/ }> Final Announcement of April 9th WRUG Meeting  }> (regular time and place)g }> Western Reserve Users Group/ }> Northeast Ohio Local User Group of Encompass> }>   }> Topic: Oracle 9ir }>  : }>   What's behind the "Unbreakable" marketing hype?  WhatA }>   technologies does Oracle use to provide 99.999% availabilityg> }>   higher? What is Real Application Clusters and how does it> }>   differ from other clustering solutions?  The truth behind? }>   performance benchmarks -- how does Oracle stack up against 2 }>   other databases as to real world performance? }> @* }> Speaker: Jack Crail, Oracle Corporation }>  8 }>   Jack Crail is a Senior Sales Consultant with Oracle> }>   Corporation.  Before joining Oracle seven years ago, Jack> }>   was an Oracle DBA at two major companies in the Cleveland> }>   area.  With his extensive real world experience, Jack hasA }>   been the featured speaker for Oracle at many seminars acrossi9 }>   the country and spends most of his time working with>A }>   customers to successfully implement Oracle solutions. Topic:' }>   Informal Discussion }> i> }> Topic: A distributed Town Meeting of Encompass LUGs to give, }>        feedback to {HP,Compaq,Encompass}. }> f: }>   The outcome of the March 19th HP stockholders vote is; }>   still in doubt.  The vote is being contested in court.W< }>   Whatever the results, members of Encompass and users of@ }>   Compaq Enterprise computing equipment will be significantly }>   affected. }> l7 }>   The purpose of this session is to give feedback to  }>   {HP,Compaq,Encompass} tot }>  8 }>    1. get {HP,Compaq} to re-engage their customers as }>       quickly as possible> }>    2. influence {HP,Compaq} during this critical transition }>       period,< }>    3. demonstrate and re-affirm the value of Encompass as: }>       a valuable communications resource to {HP,Compaq}; }>    4. steer a course for Encompass during these critical  }>       times.d }> l@ }>   This session will be recorded, transcribed, and turned over> }>   to (national) Encompass to collate and analyze along with= }>   the feedback from Town Meetings at other LUGs during theC> }>   weeks after the stockholder's vote.  You should expect to? }>   give your feedback "on-the-record."  However, you may maket }>   your comments anonymously.= }> d: }>   Customers, consultants, and partners (such as Oracle,> }>   Pioneer-Standard, Great Lakes Computer) are encouraged to }>   address the issues. }>  @ }>   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS APPROVED: address the following( }>   questions/issues and respond to HP: }>  9 }>   * Given that you have already lived thru the mergersi= }>     of Compaq, Digital, and Tandum, what can and should behB }>     learned from the previous mergers which would be applicable? }>     to the HP-Compaq merger?  What was done correctly?  Whata# }>     could have been done better?  }> l; }>   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterprisel@ }>     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment,? }>     stability/predictibility, support for particular productc% }>     lines, credibility/trust, etc.a }> l8 }>   * What are your concerns regarding the relationship9 }>     between HP and Intel and between HP and Microsoft?o? }>     Are there other relationships which should be addressed?o }> O6 }>   * What are the your concerns about the dependance= }>     (over-dependance) of the combined company on PC sales?t= }>     [Arguments raised by those opposing the merger.]  Whaty' }>     should HP do about these issues?i }> iC }>   ASSUMING THAT THE MERGER IS DISAPPROVED: address the followingu, }>   questions/issues and respond to Compaq: }>  ; }>   * What are the major concerns of the Compaq Enterpriseh@ }>     customer base?  Issues such as: protection of investment,? }>     stability/predictibility, support for particular productr }>     lines, etc. }> u8 }>   * What are your concerns regarding the relationshipA }>     between Compaq and Intel and between Compaq and Microsoft?a> }>     Are their other relationship which should be addressed? }> p2 }>   * What are your concerns about the dependance= }>     (over-dependance) of Compaq on PC sales?  That is, arex; }>     PC sales adversely affecting Compaq's support of ourc/ }>     Enterprise computing and related issues?v }> s? }>   INDEPENDENT OF APPROVAL/DISAPPROVAL OF THE MERGER: addressp= }>   the following questions/issues and respond to Encompass:p }> a= }>   * What should Encompass be doing to increase membership?y }> m= }>   * What services should Encompass be offering to members?a }>  < }>   * What should be the relationship with ITUG and Interex }>     (the HP user group)?p }> m }> Date: }>   Tuesday, April 9, 2002  }> Time: }>   3:00 to 6:00 PM }> Location: }>   near the Compaq office at }>   Summit Conference Centere }>   1st floor }>   Three Summit Park Drive }>   Independance, Ohioo }>  ( }>   A map to the bottom of the hill is:g }>   http://www.vicinity.com/av2000/map.mb?CMD=GEO?AD2=3+Summit+Park+Drive?AD3=Independence%2C+OH?GMI=1.C }>   The office is at the top of the hill at the end of the street.s }> r }> Directions:E }>   From the area of the interchange of I-480 and I-77, go south ando! }>   take the Rockside Road exit.c }> /> }>   At the bottom of the ramp, turn right (west) on Rockside. }> .: }>   Go west one block; turn left (south) on Summit Drive. }> yD }>   Summit 3 is at the top of the hill on the right (west). Parking* }>   is on the north side of the building. }> hB }>   The front entrance (on the east side) is on level 2. The rear/ }>   entrance (on the west side) is on level 1.t }> o }> Future meeting datesa }>   June 11, 2002 }>   August 13, 20026 }>   October 22, 2002 (4th Tuesday to avoid CETS-2002) }>   December 10, 2002 }> n) }> See the (updated) WRUG LUG Web site at  }> N' }>   http://eisner.decus.org/lugs/wrug/i }> c }> Joe H. Gallagherl }> Chairman, WRUG LUGs }> dtrwiz@ix.netcom.comr   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.187 ************************ECO Database and the MultiNet ECO database. Use the followinga
 kit names:   MultiNet V4.3A: SNMP-020_A043e TCPware V5.5-3: SNMPD_V5@h    Ah    Bh    Ch    Dh    Eh    Fh    Gh    Hh    Ih    Jh    Kh    Lh    Mh    Nh    Oh    Ph    Qh    Rh    Sh    Th    Uh    Vh    Wh    Xh    Yh    Zh    [h    \h    ]h    ^h    _h    `h    ah    bh    ch    dh    eh    fh    gh    hh    ih    jh    kh    lh    mh    nh    oh    ph    qh    rh    sh    th    uh    vh    wh    xh    yh    zh    {h    |h    }h    ~h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    Ýh    ĝh    ŝh    Ɲh    ǝh    ȝh    ɝh    ʝh    ˝h    ̝h    ͝h    Νh    ϝh    Нh    ѝh    ҝh    ӝh    ԝh    ՝h    ֝h    םh    ؝h    ٝh    ڝh    ۝h    ܝh    ݝh    ޝh    ߝh    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    