1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 09 Apr 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 195       Contents: Alphaserver EV7 announcement RE: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  RE: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  RE: Anonymous ftp  RE: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp  Re: Anonymous ftp * RE: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3* Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3* RE: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3* Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3 behavior of working set  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Burning CD using LD  Re: Daylight savings Re: Daylight savings Re: Digital 7-year plan... FTP captive account? Re: FTP captive account? Re: FTP captive account?H Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping , ofLinux Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles# Just another linux nightmare day #2 ' RE: Just another linux nightmare day #2 $ Just another linux nightmare day ...( Re: Just another linux nightmare day ...= Lack of Display Postscript in V7.3 (was Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3) A RE: Lack of Display Postscript in V7.3 (was Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3)  Manual for SWXRA GX / GN wanted  More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: More positive OpenVMS news Re: Motif startup problem.) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it ) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it > Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> RE: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks> Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks Re: Server Side Includes Re: Server Side Includes Re: Solid State disk drives 4 Re: Spring Forward, Fall Back - unfortunately not :- Re: The Digital 7-year plan... RE: The Digital 7-year plan.... trademarks (was: RE: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!)2 RE: trademarks (was: RE: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!)5 Re: VMS boottime - how to calculate # of days running  Re: VMS doesn't suck Re: VMS doesn't suck Re: VMS doesn't suck Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigree& WASD Experts - accessing the Admin I/F4 Re: WASD Experts - accessing the Admin I/F-Cancelled( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...4 Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up)4 Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up) X  RE: X   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:22:24 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)% Subject: Alphaserver EV7 announcement K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0804022122240001@1cust111.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   . Compaq has announced the EV7 alphaserver line:  1    http://www.compaq.com/hps/announce/apr_02.html     A MARVELous picture is included.  H There's also a 9-page PDF file linked from the above URL, describing the alphaservers in Marketese.   And some other stuff.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 13:09:44 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp3 Message-ID: <HNc3n7+aqSlm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEHGELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: D > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody elseG > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq can't convince 2 > Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't. > I > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention, Microsoft isn't going K > to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMS can't be used D > as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my customers, I think > Compaq should do the same.  H Let me get this straight.  Microsoft builds a broken browser and refusesH to respond to requests to fix it and this means that Compaq isn't paying
 attention.  K The various FTP servers that work under VMS all work.  They are all usable. E The fact that some of them don't work well with some browsers doesn't @ mean that any of the servers are broken.  It takes two to tango.    H I just downloaded a copy of HGFTP version 3.0 (previously named MadGoat)2 and looked at the release notes.  Here's a tidbit:  >          o  The HGFTP server now plays better with PC browsers@              (specifically, Netscape and Internet Explorer) when>              the UNIX directory listing emulation is used. The<              following changes were made to accomodate these              browsers:  =             o  Netscape is actually smart enough to recognize <                that it's talking to a VMS system by checking;                the output generated in response to the SYST >                command. Unfortunately, when UNIX emulation was>                in effect, this caused Netscape to misinterpret9                the directory listing and display only the =                returned file names. Now, when the logical HG_ >                FTP_HIDE_VMS_SYST is defined and UNIX emulation>                is in effect, the SYST response includes spaces:                to disguise the fact that it's a VMS system?                running HGFTP. This causes Netscape to interpret >                the file names and display file information for   @ As you can see, reading between the lines here, it isn't easy to? build an FTP server that gives full access to a VMS file system @ (with support for square bracket directory names, file versions,? transparent transfer of metadata between servers and compatible C clients, etc) and which also provides a seamless Unix emulation for 8 GUI clients with widely varying degrees of intelligence.  E Directory listing format is just the tip of the iceberg of GUI client  brain deadness.     @ You say that you've tried MadGoat and had it fail.  What version? with what configuration settings?  Failing how?  Do you want to % bitch at Compaq or fix your problems?    	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:37:55 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp; Message-ID: <3cb1e383.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>    briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: ' > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: J > > Interestingly, I (as a test) tried IE6 and Opera6.1 on W2k and MozillaJ > > 9.9 on VMS7.3 and the only one that worked at ftp.process.com was IE6. > F > Note that Process Software supports two distinct TCP stacks for VMS.C > They support TCPWare which they wrote.  And they support Multinet : > which they acquired from Cisco who acquired it from TGV. > B > I wrote that the Multinet FTP server automatically switches into8 > Unix emulation mode upon receipt of a "CWD /" command. > 2 > But ftp.process.com runs the TCPWare FTP server.  H TCPware and MultiNet are growing (slowly) into one product, the servicesH being the first to be assimilated. In TCPware 5.5 (5.4?), the FTP server( component was replaced by MultiNet code.   cu,    Martin --  H    Emacs would be a great   | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer5    operating system,        | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de L    if only it came with     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/<    a decent editor...       | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:26:30 -0400 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>  Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp2 Message-ID: <3CB1E0D6.2847589E@clarityconnect.com>  C So IBM will change their Kerberos implementations to conform to the H Microsoft way and change their C++ compilers to do things the Visual C++ way??  I think not ;*)   Tom Linden wrote:  > C > I don't mean to offend but you seem to be living in a subjunctive B > world.  You call it it cavalierly " a few browsers" .  Those fewD > browsers probably account for more than 80% of the total.  So whatC > you are implying is that you only are interested in competing for D > the remaining 20% or whatever the number is.  Standards don't workE > where a monoply is present.  THAT becomes the standard, whether you @ > like it or not.  The RFC is in this case, alas, is irrelevant. > H > Whether Compaq complies with various standards is a subordinated issueF > to whether it works and which  market opportunities does it address. >  > (Now for the plug) > G > Imagine, if you will, how IBM might react in a similar situation, and H > that is why HPaQ will never effectively compete with IBM.  They listen+ > to their customers and eract accordingly.  >  > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com]) > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:23 AM  > > To: Tom Linden > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp > >  > > L > > What is the point in having RFCs then if a company can be so big that itJ > > can ignore them, implement things the way they want and force everyone > > to change to follow them?  > > K > > Compaq TCPIP Services for OpenVMS V5.1 is compliant with the applicable I > > standards but you want Compaq to implement a change that takes it out J > > compliance just for the sake of a few browsers that think the world isI > > controlled by Microsoft?  There are more FTP servers that IE et al do  > > not work with besides ours.  > >  > > Tom Linden wrote:  > > > H > > > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody elseK > > > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq can't convince 6 > > > Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't. > > > M > > > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention, Microsoft isn't going A > > > to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMS  > > can't be used H > > > as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my customers, I think  > > > Compaq should do the same. > > > " > > > > -----Original Message-----> > > > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com], > > > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:32 AM! > > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > > > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp > > > >  > > > > N > > > > The TCPIP Services FTP server is compliant with the applicable RFCs inC > > > > how it produces it's file list.  It is the FTP clients that  > > cannot deal I > > > > w/ a non-Unix style file list that are non-compliant.  Compaq has J > > > > discussed this MANY MANY times with Microsoft and other FTP clientL > > > > vendors but they refuse to bring their code into compliance with theE > > > > applicable RFCs.  If you run across an FTP client that cannot  > > handle theN > > > > file list from a TCPIP V5.1 + latest ECOs FTP server then elevate thisH > > > > issue to the vendor of the FTP client and point them to RFC 959. > > > > ' > > > > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: 	 > > > > > H > > > > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEGOELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom( > > > > Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:F > > > > > > Interestingly, I (as a test) tried IE6 and Opera6.1 on W2k > > > > and Mozilla 9.9 N > > > > > > on VMS7.3 and the only one that worked at ftp.process.com was IE6.	 > > > > > N > > > > > Note that Process Software supports two distinct TCP stacks for VMS.K > > > > > They support TCPWare which they wrote.  And they support Multinet B > > > > > which they acquired from Cisco who acquired it from TGV.	 > > > > > J > > > > > I wrote that the Multinet FTP server automatically switches into@ > > > > > Unix emulation mode upon receipt of a "CWD /" command.	 > > > > > : > > > > > But ftp.process.com runs the TCPWare FTP server.	 > > > > > D > > > > > > I was under the impression that tcpip5.1 was a port from > > Tru64.  Now B > > > > > > if you use any browser and go to ftp://thor.kednos.com > > (Tru64 4.0d) it F > > > > > > works fine, but ftp://freja.kednos.com (VMS7.3)  it fails. > > > > Was somebodyI > > > > > > asleep do the port?  I regard this as a serious deficiency in  > > > > the modernF > > > > > > world.  Perhaps there is a way to configure the ftp server > > > > that I missed.	 > > > > > F > > > > > A popular implementation technique on Unix ftp servers is toA > > > > > perform a LIST command by forking ls -l.  If you do the  > > > > simplest possible G > > > > > translation, you'll end up LIB$SPAWNing a DIR /FULL.  And the J > > > > > resulting directory listing will look nothing like a Unix format > > > > > directory listing.	 > > > > > J > > > > > The fact that the FTP server was ported from a Unix code base isB > > > > > not very relevant to the format of the directory listing > > produced by a M > > > > > LIST command.  After all, the underlying file systems and directory # > > > > > structures are different. 	 > > > > > H > > > > > > Well it is obvious to me, from your comments, that if an ftp > > > > server doesn'tH > > > > > > produce unix style output it is effectively broken, and that > > > > is going to A > > > > > > impact, certainly use, if not sales of VMS platforms. 	 > > > > > L > > > > > If you insist on using a VMS FTP server with a brain-dead browser,F > > > > > pay the $0.00, install MadGoat FTP on the VMS side and solve > > > > > the problem.	 > > > > >  > > > > >         John Briggs  > > > > 
 > > > > --K > > > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY E > > > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett  > > Bodine fanE > > > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since  > > 1975 or so9 > > > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -  > > > >  > >  > > --G > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY L > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fanL > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since 1975 or so5 > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -  > >    --  C Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY 0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:48:44 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHMELAA.tom@kednos.com>    > -----Original Message-----B > From: briggs@encompasserve.org [mailto:briggs@encompasserve.org]' > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 11:10 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp >  > A > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEHGELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom  " > Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:F > > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody elseI > > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq can't convince 4 > > Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't. > > K > > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention, Microsoft isn't going @ > > to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMS  > can't be used F > > as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my customers, I think > > Compaq should do the same. > J > Let me get this straight.  Microsoft builds a broken browser and refusesJ > to respond to requests to fix it and this means that Compaq isn't paying > attention. Yes. > B > The various FTP servers that work under VMS all work.  They are 
 > all usable.nG > The fact that some of them don't work well with some browsers doesn't B > mean that any of the servers are broken.  It takes two to tango.  @ They aren't usable from IE.  Those "some browsers" IS THE WORLD. >  > J > I just downloaded a copy of HGFTP version 3.0 (previously named MadGoat)4 > and looked at the release notes.  Here's a tidbit: > @ >          o  The HGFTP server now plays better with PC browsersB >              (specifically, Netscape and Internet Explorer) when@ >              the UNIX directory listing emulation is used. The> >              following changes were made to accomodate these >              browsers: > ? >             o  Netscape is actually smart enough to recognizea> >                that it's talking to a VMS system by checking= >                the output generated in response to the SYST @ >                command. Unfortunately, when UNIX emulation was@ >                in effect, this caused Netscape to misinterpret; >                the directory listing and display only theu? >                returned file names. Now, when the logical HG_r@ >                FTP_HIDE_VMS_SYST is defined and UNIX emulation@ >                is in effect, the SYST response includes spaces< >                to disguise the fact that it's a VMS systemA >                running HGFTP. This causes Netscape to interpretN@ >                the file names and display file information for >  eB > As you can see, reading between the lines here, it isn't easy toA > build an FTP server that gives full access to a VMS file systempB > (with support for square bracket directory names, file versions,A > transparent transfer of metadata between servers and compatible E > clients, etc) and which also provides a seamless Unix emulation for.: > GUI clients with widely varying degrees of intelligence.  E I wasn't implying that it was easy.  This isn't about being right, it  is about winning.u   BTWt TCPIP> SHOW CONFIG FTPA %CLI-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spellingh  \FTP\ > G > Directory listing format is just the tip of the iceberg of GUI cliente > brain deadness.r >  > B > You say that you've tried MadGoat and had it fail.  What versionA > with what configuration settings?  Failing how?  Do you want to ' > bitch at Compaq or fix your problems?   A Use Mozilla 9.9 on VMS and point it to ftp://ftp.process.com  QEDf  K I am not bitching, I am complaining that a product you provide doesn't meett4 the needs of my VMS customers, because they use IE.    >  > 	John Briggs >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:18:10 +00002 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp4 Message-ID: <20020408191810.B21751@eisenschmidt.org>   --PmA2V3Z32TCmWXqI* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline-+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableS  L This drives me nuts with HTML. I strive to only write W3C Compliant HTML, s=L o it will work on Netscape, Mozilla, IE, Konqueror, Opera, etc. Very few pe=L ople do this - they think making it IE compliant is enough. I am forever se=L nding emails to webmasters that say "Your website sucks. Stop developing in=L  a vacuum". Our developers have to test anything for Netscape and IE on the=;  Mac and PC before it can be considered for productions.=20e  H People don't realize that Netscape didn't lose the browser wars, we did.  L Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Mark D. Jilson (jilly@clarityconnect.com) W= rote:)E > So IBM will change their Kerberos implementations to conform to the-J > Microsoft way and change their C++ compilers to do things the Visual C++ > way??  I think not ;*) >=20 > Tom Linden wrote:r > >=20E > > I don't mean to offend but you seem to be living in a subjunctiveuD > > world.  You call it it cavalierly " a few browsers" .  Those fewF > > browsers probably account for more than 80% of the total.  So whatE > > you are implying is that you only are interested in competing forUF > > the remaining 20% or whatever the number is.  Standards don't workG > > where a monoply is present.  THAT becomes the standard, whether yourB > > like it or not.  The RFC is in this case, alas, is irrelevant. > >=20J > > Whether Compaq complies with various standards is a subordinated issueH > > to whether it works and which  market opportunities does it address. > >=20 > > (Now for the plug) > >=20I > > Imagine, if you will, how IBM might react in a similar situation, andnJ > > that is why HPaQ will never effectively compete with IBM.  They listen- > > to their customers and eract accordingly.i > >=20  > > > -----Original Message-----< > > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com]+ > > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:23 AM  > > > To: Tom Linden  > > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp > > >t > > >aL > > > What is the point in having RFCs then if a company can be so big that=  it L > > > can ignore them, implement things the way they want and force everyone > > > to change to follow them?  > > >rL > > > Compaq TCPIP Services for OpenVMS V5.1 is compliant with the applicab= leK > > > standards but you want Compaq to implement a change that takes it out L > > > compliance just for the sake of a few browsers that think the world isK > > > controlled by Microsoft?  There are more FTP servers that IE et al don! > > > not work with besides ours.  > > >  > > > Tom Linden wrote:e > > > >rJ > > > > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody elseL > > > > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq can't convin= ce8 > > > > Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't. > > > >eL > > > > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention, Microsoft isn't g= oingC > > > > to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMSa > > > can't be usedeJ > > > > as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my customers, I think" > > > > Compaq should do the same. > > > >g$ > > > > > -----Original Message-----@ > > > > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com]. > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:32 AM# > > > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > > > > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp	 > > > > >i	 > > > > > L > > > > > The TCPIP Services FTP server is compliant with the applicable RF= Cs ineE > > > > > how it produces it's file list.  It is the FTP clients that  > > > cannot dealdK > > > > > w/ a non-Unix style file list that are non-compliant.  Compaq hasfL > > > > > discussed this MANY MANY times with Microsoft and other FTP clientL > > > > > vendors but they refuse to bring their code into compliance with = thelG > > > > > applicable RFCs.  If you run across an FTP client that cannot  > > > handle theL > > > > > file list from a TCPIP V5.1 + latest ECOs FTP server then elevate=  this J > > > > > issue to the vendor of the FTP client and point them to RFC 959.	 > > > > > ) > > > > > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:g > > > > > >nJ > > > > > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEGOELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom* > > > > > Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:H > > > > > > > Interestingly, I (as a test) tried IE6 and Opera6.1 on W2k > > > > > and Mozilla 9.9uL > > > > > > > on VMS7.3 and the only one that worked at ftp.process.com was=  IE6.  > > > > > >cL > > > > > > Note that Process Software supports two distinct TCP stacks for=  VMS.IL > > > > > > They support TCPWare which they wrote.  And they support Multin= etD > > > > > > which they acquired from Cisco who acquired it from TGV. > > > > > >sL > > > > > > I wrote that the Multinet FTP server automatically switches intoB > > > > > > Unix emulation mode upon receipt of a "CWD /" command. > > > > > >t< > > > > > > But ftp.process.com runs the TCPWare FTP server. > > > > > >eF > > > > > > > I was under the impression that tcpip5.1 was a port from > > > Tru64.  Now D > > > > > > > if you use any browser and go to ftp://thor.kednos.com > > > (Tru64 4.0d) ithH > > > > > > > works fine, but ftp://freja.kednos.com (VMS7.3)  it fails. > > > > > Was somebodyK > > > > > > > asleep do the port?  I regard this as a serious deficiency ina > > > > > the modernH > > > > > > > world.  Perhaps there is a way to configure the ftp server > > > > > that I missed. > > > > > > H > > > > > > A popular implementation technique on Unix ftp servers is toC > > > > > > perform a LIST command by forking ls -l.  If you do the  > > > > > simplest possible6I > > > > > > translation, you'll end up LIB$SPAWNing a DIR /FULL.  And the:L > > > > > > resulting directory listing will look nothing like a Unix format > > > > > > directory listing. > > > > > >cL > > > > > > The fact that the FTP server was ported from a Unix code base isD > > > > > > not very relevant to the format of the directory listing > > > produced by ayL > > > > > > LIST command.  After all, the underlying file systems and direc= tory% > > > > > > structures are different.a > > > > > >oJ > > > > > > > Well it is obvious to me, from your comments, that if an ftp > > > > > server doesn'tJ > > > > > > > produce unix style output it is effectively broken, and that > > > > > is going topC > > > > > > > impact, certainly use, if not sales of VMS platforms.T > > > > > >tL > > > > > > If you insist on using a VMS FTP server with a brain-dead brows= er,sH > > > > > > pay the $0.00, install MadGoat FTP on the VMS side and solve > > > > > > the problem. > > > > > >t > > > > > >         John Briggsi	 > > > > >  > > > > > --L > > > > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, = NYG > > > > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett  > > > Bodine fanG > > > > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since  > > > 1975 or so; > > > > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -o	 > > > > >  > > >  > > > --I > > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY L > > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine = fangL > > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since 1975 or=  soi7 > > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -i > > >t >=20 > --=20tE > Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYh2 > 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan0 > 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so. > 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   --=20 / John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>i6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2   --PmA2V3Z32TCmWXqI' Content-Type: application/pgp-signature  Content-Disposition: inlineh   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----e Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD) * Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE8sezyH5fmozfjvvIRAuP7AJoC5sLGrAOu5AuGQOn4blXMrZ+mMACeJ0V/ JjtudzhjR68NuIySb9oOBj4= =fD+Pi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----n   --PmA2V3Z32TCmWXqI--   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:26:08 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEHOELAA.tom@kednos.com>   > I believe that Opera has an HTML validation tool as well.  But8 back to the ftp issue, I think I will use unix until ...   > -----Original Message-----; > From: John Eisenschmidt [mailto:jweisen@eisenschmidt.org]s' > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 12:18 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp >  > ; > This drives me nuts with HTML. I strive to only write W3Co; > Compliant HTML, so it will work on Netscape, Mozilla, IE,e= > Konqueror, Opera, etc. Very few people do this - they thinkoB > making it IE compliant is enough. I am forever sending emails to? > webmasters that say "Your website sucks. Stop developing in a<C > vacuum". Our developers have to test anything for Netscape and IEt@ > on the Mac and PC before it can be considered for productions. >dJ > People don't realize that Netscape didn't lose the browser wars, we did. >h0 > Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Mark D. Jilson# > (jilly@clarityconnect.com) Wrote:cG > > So IBM will change their Kerberos implementations to conform to thepL > > Microsoft way and change their C++ compilers to do things the Visual C++ > > way??  I think not ;*) > >e > > Tom Linden wrote:  > > > G > > > I don't mean to offend but you seem to be living in a subjunctive F > > > world.  You call it it cavalierly " a few browsers" .  Those fewH > > > browsers probably account for more than 80% of the total.  So whatG > > > you are implying is that you only are interested in competing for H > > > the remaining 20% or whatever the number is.  Standards don't workI > > > where a monoply is present.  THAT becomes the standard, whether younD > > > like it or not.  The RFC is in this case, alas, is irrelevant. > > >oL > > > Whether Compaq complies with various standards is a subordinated issueJ > > > to whether it works and which  market opportunities does it address. > > >. > > > (Now for the plug) > > > K > > > Imagine, if you will, how IBM might react in a similar situation, andcL > > > that is why HPaQ will never effectively compete with IBM.  They listen/ > > > to their customers and eract accordingly.F > > >n" > > > > -----Original Message-----> > > > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com]- > > > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:23 AMa > > > > To: Tom Linden" > > > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp > > > >e > > > >nA > > > > What is the point in having RFCs then if a company can be  > so big that it? > > > > can ignore them, implement things the way they want and  > force everyone! > > > > to change to follow them?e > > > >o@ > > > > Compaq TCPIP Services for OpenVMS V5.1 is compliant with > the applicable@ > > > > standards but you want Compaq to implement a change that > takes it outA > > > > compliance just for the sake of a few browsers that thinks > the world isA > > > > controlled by Microsoft?  There are more FTP servers that 
 > IE et al do # > > > > not work with besides ours.P > > > >M > > > > Tom Linden wrote: 	 > > > > >.L > > > > > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody else@ > > > > > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq > can't convince: > > > > > Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't.	 > > > > > ; > > > > > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention,  > Microsoft isn't going E > > > > > to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMS  > > > > can't be used L > > > > > as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my customers, I think$ > > > > > Compaq should do the same.	 > > > > > & > > > > > > -----Original Message-----B > > > > > > From: Mark D. Jilson [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com]0 > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:32 AM% > > > > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comu& > > > > > > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp > > > > > >c > > > > > >t? > > > > > > The TCPIP Services FTP server is compliant with theh > applicable RFCs inG > > > > > > how it produces it's file list.  It is the FTP clients that2 > > > > cannot dealrA > > > > > > w/ a non-Unix style file list that are non-compliant.s > Compaq hasC > > > > > > discussed this MANY MANY times with Microsoft and other- > FTP client< > > > > > > vendors but they refuse to bring their code into > compliance with the0I > > > > > > applicable RFCs.  If you run across an FTP client that cannot  > > > > handle the@ > > > > > > file list from a TCPIP V5.1 + latest ECOs FTP server > then elevate this:L > > > > > > issue to the vendor of the FTP client and point them to RFC 959. > > > > > >e+ > > > > > > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:t
 > > > > > > > L > > > > > > > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEGOELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom, > > > > > > Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > > > > > > > > Interestingly, I (as a test) tried IE6 and Opera6.1 on W2k > > > > > > and Mozilla 9.9t9 > > > > > > > > on VMS7.3 and the only one that worked at  > ftp.process.com was IE6.
 > > > > > > >eB > > > > > > > Note that Process Software supports two distinct TCP > stacks for VMS.u> > > > > > > > They support TCPWare which they wrote.  And they > support MultinetF > > > > > > > which they acquired from Cisco who acquired it from TGV.
 > > > > > > >a@ > > > > > > > I wrote that the Multinet FTP server automatically > switches intofD > > > > > > > Unix emulation mode upon receipt of a "CWD /" command.
 > > > > > > >e> > > > > > > > But ftp.process.com runs the TCPWare FTP server.
 > > > > > > >sH > > > > > > > > I was under the impression that tcpip5.1 was a port from > > > > Tru64.  Now F > > > > > > > > if you use any browser and go to ftp://thor.kednos.com > > > > (Tru64 4.0d) itsJ > > > > > > > > works fine, but ftp://freja.kednos.com (VMS7.3)  it fails. > > > > > > Was somebody? > > > > > > > > asleep do the port?  I regard this as a serious  > deficiency inr > > > > > > the modernJ > > > > > > > > world.  Perhaps there is a way to configure the ftp server > > > > > > that I missed.
 > > > > > > > J > > > > > > > A popular implementation technique on Unix ftp servers is toE > > > > > > > perform a LIST command by forking ls -l.  If you do thee > > > > > > simplest possibleiK > > > > > > > translation, you'll end up LIB$SPAWNing a DIR /FULL.  And the B > > > > > > > resulting directory listing will look nothing like a
 > Unix formatD  > > > > > > > directory listing.
 > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > The fact that the FTP server was ported from a Unix  > code base isF > > > > > > > not very relevant to the format of the directory listing > > > > produced by aeC > > > > > > > LIST command.  After all, the underlying file systemsf > and directoryu' > > > > > > > structures are different. 
 > > > > > > >oL > > > > > > > > Well it is obvious to me, from your comments, that if an ftp > > > > > > server doesn'tL > > > > > > > > produce unix style output it is effectively broken, and that > > > > > > is going tolE > > > > > > > > impact, certainly use, if not sales of VMS platforms.U
 > > > > > > >w< > > > > > > > If you insist on using a VMS FTP server with a > brain-dead browser,sJ > > > > > > > pay the $0.00, install MadGoat FTP on the VMS side and solve > > > > > > > the problem.
 > > > > > > >h! > > > > > > >         John Briggs  > > > > > >r > > > > > > --C > > > > > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - 
 > Waverly, NY I > > > > > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brettg > > > > Bodine fanI > > > > > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - sinces > > > > 1975 or so= > > > > > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -n > > > > > >a > > > >t
 > > > > --K > > > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY ? > > > >       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      -a > Brett Bodine fan? > > > >       - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        -> > since 1975 or so9 > > > >       - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -r > > > >m > >3 > > --; > > Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley -t
 > Waverly, NYo4 > > 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan2 > > 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so0 > > 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               - >, > --1 > John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>t8 >  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen >  PGP Public Key  |: http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.ascD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 15:07:39 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp3 Message-ID: <ytqxEWuBEaJM@eisner.encompasserve.org>k  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHMELAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:nH >> Directory listing format is just the tip of the iceberg of GUI client >> brain deadness. >>   >>  C >> You say that you've tried MadGoat and had it fail.  What versionnB >> with what configuration settings?  Failing how?  Do you want to( >> bitch at Compaq or fix your problems? > C > Use Mozilla 9.9 on VMS and point it to ftp://ftp.process.com  QEDt > M > I am not bitching, I am complaining that a product you provide doesn't meetU6 > the needs of my VMS customers, because they use IE.   C You ARE bitching.  Worse, you are bitching to Compaq about an issuen? that doesn't involve their FTP client and doesn't involve their  FTP server.l  H And you are bitching at me.  And my only relationship to DEC, Compaq, HP0 and Process Software is that of a past customer.  8 Is there an actual problem you are trying to solve here?   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 15:32:26 -0500i- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp3 Message-ID: <mo4YzZhgVd7H@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  i In article <20020408191810.B21751@eisenschmidt.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:  >  > --PmA2V3Z32TCmWXqI, > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline - > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableF > N > This drives me nuts with HTML. I strive to only write W3C Compliant HTML, s=   Speaking of standards...  B Please do not post MIME in newsgroups or mailing lists that do not specifically permit it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:00:13 GMTm( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp+ Message-ID: <3CB20507.FE4522CF@pacbell.net>o  O Why use ftp. I can get a directory listing and download whatever I wish from IEnO or Netscape using http. Of course you have to have a web server running on your  VMS system.    Tom Linden wrote:i > ! > Running tcpip 5.1 under AXp 7.3  > E > When accessing the system from a command line interface works fine,=? > but when using browser with address ftp://freja.kednos.com it H > display the ftp root directory but when you try to click on any of theB > entries. it responds "The page cannot be display"  This with IE.! > with Opera doesn't get that faru >  > This waht IE displaysr > G > 01/01/1980 12:00PM              0 Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[ANONYMOUS]t@ > 01/01/1980 12:00PM              0 INPUT.DIR;1              1/4: > 23-AUG-2001 17:28:00  [SYSTEM]               (RWE,RWE,,)@ > 01/01/1980 12:00PM              0 LOGIN.COM;1              1/4< > 23-AUG-2001 17:27:54  [ANONY,ANONYMOUS]      (RE,RE,RE,RE)@ > 01/01/1980 12:00PM              0 PUB.DIR;1                1/4> > 28-AUG-2001 07:40:54  [SYSTEM]               (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)A > 01/01/1980 12:00PM              0 Total of 3 files, 3/12 blocks  > < > I have a similar set up on Tru64 4.0d and that works fine. > Is this a permission issue?h   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:10:41 -0400l1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>c Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp2 Message-ID: <3CB23181.5E1DADC0@firstdbasource.com>   Don Sykes wrote: > Q > Why use ftp. I can get a directory listing and download whatever I wish from IE Q > or Netscape using http. Of course you have to have a web server running on yourn
 > VMS system.C  ! A Shameless plug for business :) >  @ And if you would like, you can contact a reputable company [likeG www.firstdbasource.com] that would be more than glad to web-enable youroB VMS system using your choice of web server... WASD, OSU, APACHE orA Purveyor.  And they can make all of those legacy reports of yoursrA available via the web instead of bogging down your email or print ) servers.   And it can all be done remote..   -- h Regards,  - Michael Austin            OpenVMS Since 1984 m7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com 7 Sr. Consultant            Registered Linux User #261163c 704-947-1089 (Office)n 704-236-4377 (Mobile)r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 01:08:04 GMTo( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp+ Message-ID: <3CB23F22.AA488F42@pacbell.net>m   Michael Austin wrote:  >  > Don Sykes wrote: > >sS > > Why use ftp. I can get a directory listing and download whatever I wish from IE S > > or Netscape using http. Of course you have to have a web server running on your  > > VMS system.t > " > A Shameless plug for business :)  L Actually, I hadn't thought of it that way and I sure can use the business...L But the poster didn't say he didn't have a web enabled VMS machine, so I wasD only suggesting another way to allow files to be downloaded. Really.   > B > And if you would like, you can contact a reputable company [likeI > www.firstdbasource.com] that would be more than glad to web-enable yourLD > VMS system using your choice of web server... WASD, OSU, APACHE orC > Purveyor.  And they can make all of those legacy reports of yours C > available via the web instead of bogging down your email or prints+ > servers.   And it can all be done remote.r >  > --
 > Regards, > . > Michael Austin            OpenVMS Since 19849 > First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comy9 > Sr. Consultant            Registered Linux User #261163  > 704-947-1089 (Office)o > 704-236-4377 (Mobile)n   -- t   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscoe   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Apr 2002 04:38:03 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp- Message-ID: <87d6xancyc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>S  % "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:s  D > Let's get real!  Me escalating this with Microsoft or anybody else> > for that matter is only a waste of my time.  If Compaq can't; > convince Microsoft to conform to the RFCs I surely can't.k  E Yes you ca; you are a customer. So go to the relavent legal folk, and  serve the summons on M$...   C > I think it is Compaq that isn't paying attention, Microsoft isn'tJC > going to change, so you will have to, or accept the fact that VMS ? > can't be used as an ftp server.  I am trying to accomodate my / > customers, I think Compaq should do the same.m  F Use it or lose it. Commercial law is build to a huge degree on 'normal> practise'. If you keep acepting broken code, then you lose the< possibility of complaining later. Your acceptance makes code acceptable, for everyone.    -- p< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:57:19 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 3 Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3m9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEIAELAA.tom@kednos.com>E  ? Actually, this is quite interesting, because they were probablyoA legitmate attempts to download from the ftp site, using a browserG= like IE, but they failed because of incompatibiliites betweenfA ftp under tcpip5.1 and the Microsoft browser (and several others)A  ) The entires in the log file  had the form9  F 3-APR-2002 17:27:17.20 User:anonymous logged in ident:Ugpuser@home.com from ...  " and when I tried it myself from IE  E 7-APR-2002 09:12:25.78 User:anonymous logged in ident:IEUser@ from ..A  G The light went on and I realized this is the id put out by the browser.      > -----Original Message-----< > From: Ralf Gaertner [mailto:gaertner@cthulhu.westfalen.de]( > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:36 PM > To: tom@kednos.com1 > Subject: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3g >  >e > D > > I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to logC > > in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is anyrG > > capital letter.  Typically the attempts are short and the come fromzE > > different ips, in different countries.  Is there any way to blocknF > > such users?  My concern isn't so much them breaking in, although aD > > certain amount of paranoia in this respect is healthy, but it isC > > cluttering up the log files, which record legitimate downloads.n >eH > You might try to do a traceroot to the ip address to possible identifyE > his/her provider and send them the ip adresses which has been used.n( > It may work if the provider uses DHCP. >  > Ralf > --C >   Ralf Grtner                gaertner@cthulhu.westfalen.de (homen > & preferred)7 >   tztalerstr. 5b             gaertner@decus.decus.deeD >   D - 81373 Mnchen           ralf.gaertner@t-systems.com   (work) >   FRGn >oB >          System/Network Manager & DECUS TeX Developer/Maintainer > H >     ~~~  Too old to Rock 'n Roll - too young to die (Jethro Tull)  ~~~ >T   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:42:22 -0500 (CDT)t From: sms@antinode.org3 Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3 ) Message-ID: <02040820422205@antinode.org>r  3 From:	SMTP%"tom@kednos.com"  8-APR-2002 15:03:39.93eA > Actually, this is quite interesting, because they were probablytC > legitmate attempts to download from the ftp site, using a browsere? > like IE, but they failed because of incompatibiliites between C > ftp under tcpip5.1 and the Microsoft browser (and several others)r > [...] > > > From: Ralf Gaertner [mailto:gaertner@cthulhu.westfalen.de]( > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:36 PMF > > > I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to logG > > > > in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is any  > > > > capital letter.  [...]  H    Actually, no.  I hate to impede your ranting, but they were somethingC else which was also too lame to cope with a VMS DIRECTORY listing.  H "[A-Z]gpuser@home.com" is different from "IEUser@", believe it or don't.  B    On occasion, I have considered switching my FTP server from the@ native TCPIP one to MadGoat, which would allow a UNIX-format DIRD response, but I get just a bit of perverse pleasure from log entries like these:e  ; 15-FEB-2002 00:59:15.01 User:anonymous ident:guest@here.com ( status:000186D4 CWD dir:[.020214225837p]; 15-FEB-2002 00:59:17.32 User:anonymous ident:guest@here.comh5 status:000184C4 CWD dir:USR:[local.psa.home.vhosts].; = 19-FEB-2002 03:14:35.90 User:anonymous ident:Jgpuser@home.com , status:000184C4 CWD dir:TAGGED:[ANONYMOUS].;< 5-MAR-2002 17:50:32.01 User:anonymous ident:Ggpuser@home.com. status:000184C4 CWD dir:INCOMING:[ANONYMOUS].;  B .. although I am touched with a bit of pity by the likes of these:  A 21-MAR-2002 10:09:41.46 User:anonymous ident:interscan@domain.comoL status:0001C04A CWD dir:SYS$SYSDEVICE:[ANONYMOUS.WGET.wget-1_5_3g_vms.zip].;G 1-APR-2002 13:43:34.72 User:anonymous ident:IEUser@ status:000184C4 CWD,$ dir:DTSS_NTP:[dtss$ntp_provider.c].;  B    I like to think that a VMS-style DIR response helps to keep theH riff-raff out.  Netscape 3 and 4.7x browsers (and the "Fetch" FTP clientD on the Mac) work well with it.  Mozilla seeems to need work (in moreE ways than this one, too).  I believe that some versions of the fairly E popular "squid" proxy server are losers, too, but some appear to work. (judging from my logs, only).A  F    I know a little more about this than I ever wanted to, as I added a= VMS DIRECTORY report parser to Wget (1.5.3).  Compared to the F contortions required to puzzle out a UNIX "ls -l", the VMS format is a+ snap, especially for date-time information.l  5    It's a year.  (Guess the time.) --------------vvvv : -rw-rw----   1 ccu      provis       174 Jan 31  1996 TODO? -rwxrwx---   1 ccu      provis      4782 Apr  4 22:12 configuree5    No, it's a time!  (Guess the year.) ---------^^^^^c  F (Hint: Guessing the year is easier than guessing the time, but you mayH need two guesses.)  Brilliant design.  ("Design".  That's a joke.)  With7 the VMS format, if it contains this, its a that, where:F     this  that       -   date       :   time      ()   protection      []   ownerg  D I assume that ODS5 complicates this some, but it has to be easier toH interpret than "ls" output.  My code looks for "total" or "Directory" toH identify the report type, as that seemed to be less chancy than trusting FTP's SYST command method.  H    Yes, it would be nice to be able to select a UNIX-style DIR response,E but it's not at the top of _my_ wish list.  (How many of _your_ userst. lack Netscape 3 or 4?  How many can't get it?)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)tC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)TG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)d9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 20:41:44 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>s3 Subject: RE: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3o9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEIMELAA.tom@kednos.com>t   > -----Original Message-----2 > From: sms@antinode.org [mailto:sms@antinode.org]& > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 6:42 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 5 > Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3  >  > 5 > From:	SMTP%"tom@kednos.com"  8-APR-2002 15:03:39.93.C > > Actually, this is quite interesting, because they were probablytE > > legitmate attempts to download from the ftp site, using a browsernA > > like IE, but they failed because of incompatibiliites betweendE > > ftp under tcpip5.1 and the Microsoft browser (and several others) 	 > > [...]r@ > > > From: Ralf Gaertner [mailto:gaertner@cthulhu.westfalen.de]* > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:36 PMH > > > > I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to logI > > > > > in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is anyi  > > > > > capital letter.  [...] > J >    Actually, no.  I hate to impede your ranting, but they were somethingE > else which was also too lame to cope with a VMS DIRECTORY listing.  J > "[A-Z]gpuser@home.com" is different from "IEUser@", believe it or don't.  F I just assumed that they were other browsers, is not that how you also
 interpret it?  > D >    On occasion, I have considered switching my FTP server from theB > native TCPIP one to MadGoat, which would allow a UNIX-format DIRF > response, but I get just a bit of perverse pleasure from log entries
 > like these:i > = > 15-FEB-2002 00:59:15.01 User:anonymous ident:guest@here.com * > status:000186D4 CWD dir:[.020214225837p]= > 15-FEB-2002 00:59:17.32 User:anonymous ident:guest@here.com 7 > status:000184C4 CWD dir:USR:[local.psa.home.vhosts].; ? > 19-FEB-2002 03:14:35.90 User:anonymous ident:Jgpuser@home.comu. > status:000184C4 CWD dir:TAGGED:[ANONYMOUS].;> > 5-MAR-2002 17:50:32.01 User:anonymous ident:Ggpuser@home.com0 > status:000184C4 CWD dir:INCOMING:[ANONYMOUS].; > E > ... although I am touched with a bit of pity by the likes of these:  > C > 21-MAR-2002 10:09:41.46 User:anonymous ident:interscan@domain.com  > status:0001C04A CWD : > dir:SYS$SYSDEVICE:[ANONYMOUS.WGET.wget-1_5_3g_vms.zip].;I > 1-APR-2002 13:43:34.72 User:anonymous ident:IEUser@ status:000184C4 CWD & > dir:DTSS_NTP:[dtss$ntp_provider.c].; > D >    I like to think that a VMS-style DIR response helps to keep theJ > riff-raff out.  Netscape 3 and 4.7x browsers (and the "Fetch" FTP clientF > on the Mac) work well with it.  Mozilla seeems to need work (in moreG > ways than this one, too).  I believe that some versions of the fairlyiG > popular "squid" proxy server are losers, too, but some appear to work  > (judging from my logs, only).  > H >    I know a little more about this than I ever wanted to, as I added a? > VMS DIRECTORY report parser to Wget (1.5.3).  Compared to thedH > contortions required to puzzle out a UNIX "ls -l", the VMS format is a- > snap, especially for date-time information.- > 7 >    It's a year.  (Guess the time.) --------------vvvv < > -rw-rw----   1 ccu      provis       174 Jan 31  1996 TODOA > -rwxrwx---   1 ccu      provis      4782 Apr  4 22:12 configureN7 >    No, it's a time!  (Guess the year.) ---------^^^^^e > H > (Hint: Guessing the year is easier than guessing the time, but you mayJ > need two guesses.)  Brilliant design.  ("Design".  That's a joke.)  With9 > the VMS format, if it contains this, its a that, where:i >     this  that >       -   date >       :   time >      ()   protection >      []   owner  > F > I assume that ODS5 complicates this some, but it has to be easier toJ > interpret than "ls" output.  My code looks for "total" or "Directory" toJ > identify the report type, as that seemed to be less chancy than trusting > FTP's SYST command method. > J >    Yes, it would be nice to be able to select a UNIX-style DIR response,G > but it's not at the top of _my_ wish list.  (How many of _your_ userss0 > lack Netscape 3 or 4?  How many can't get it?) > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > E >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home):E >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)RI >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)n; >    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)s >    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:50:25 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org3 Subject: Re: Anonymous ftp under tcpip5.1 on AXP7.3f) Message-ID: <02040822502516@antinode.org>d  3 From:	SMTP%"tom@kednos.com"  8-APR-2002 22:47:40.03pL > > > > > > I note in our logs many attempts over the last six months to logK > > > > > > in by a user who uses the ident Xgpuser@home.com where X is any-" > > > > > > capital letter.  [...]	 > > [...]0L > >    Actually, no.  I hate to impede your ranting, but they were somethingG > > else which was also too lame to cope with a VMS DIRECTORY listing. aL > > "[A-Z]gpuser@home.com" is different from "IEUser@", believe it or don't. > H > I just assumed that they were other browsers, is not that how you also > interpret it?i  F    That's right.  It is not.  I first saw these in action on a SolarisG system (WU-FTP server) at work, where it got further (for a while).  It C appears to be a script which, given a write-enabled "/pub/incoming"b; directory, installs some marker files, creates a ("hidden")sH ".<date-time-code>p" directory (such as ".020214225837p" for [20]02, FebE 14, 22:58:37, UTC, perhaps), sends some test files of different sizes G (1KB, 1MB, presumably to test your bandwidth), and, if you're suitable, G a collection of various data files which you probably didn't wish to be  offering on your FTP server.  F     At work, there's a "cron" job which periodically checks the uploadB directory, and sends e-mail when something arrives.  Our server isH willing to accept uploads, but refuses to send those files out again, soB it was not actually useful to the script kids.  For a while I justF deleted the stuff soon after it arrived, but eventually I got tired ofE that and found that not having an incoming directory named "incoming"a was enough to defeat it.  ?    These scripts are different varieties of FTP client, but not-G legitimate browsers.  The "IEUser@" and "Squid@" idents are more likelys8 to be from legitimate clients (browser or proxy server).  C    I don't have any particular objection to MSIE users using my FTP D server, but with all the FTP clients out there which work better, my. urge to accomodate the lame ones is not great.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)rC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)aG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work) 9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:42:28 +0200, From: "Schild Niklaus" <schin@hta-bi.bfh.ch>  Subject: behavior of working set* Message-ID: <a8tv02$qum$1@rex.ip-plus.net>  J To see if there are memory leaks I use to observer my programs over a longL time with the  >sh proc /cont /id=15d97 command. I was told that the workingF set should not increase after a certain time. If it does then I have aI memory leak. I that correct? My programs are written in c and so I do not:L have full controll of the memory because malloc usually allocates internallyH bigger blocks of memory which are not immediatly freed when my memory is freed.I I made also some tests with test programs where I enforced my programs tocD alloc and free the memory in a loop, so that it is easier to see theJ effects. Under the same conditions sometimes the working set was increasedB very slowly and sometimes the working set was absolutely constant.  L How is the relation with working sets and allocated memory. (if I alloc 1024L bytes how does that affect the working set?). Should I also take care anbout the virtual pages?    
 Thanks Nik   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 10:37:58 -0700n1 From: KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)e  Subject: Re: Blade architectures= Message-ID: <6ec1251e.0204080937.47cad9eb@posting.google.com>   \ Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message news:<u3cy71ejx.fsf@earthlink.net>...G > various quotes/pieces from dec professional 1/88, pg 44, "OLTP on the B > VAXcluster" (i started work on HA/CMP DLM prototype not too long	 > later):y > > > Digital offers the VAXcluster as an easily managed computingA > environment that gives incremental expandability, extensive andiG > flexible resource sharing, highly available resources, extensive data-F > storage flexible configurations and support for balanced interactiveH > workloads.  However, the cluster's Distributed Lock Manager introducesD > overhead that can make this environment unsuitable for high-volumeG > transaction processing.  It is possible for application software (and G > I assume that Sybase incorporated these ideas into their database) toM; > eliminate this overhead penalty and permit the successfula8 > implementation of OLTP applications on the VAXcluster.  ? These kinds of cautions were probably suitable for 1988, for an'D audience that was accustomed to programming for standalone machines,F and unaccustomed to distributed systems design, but VMS clusters today? are certainly used successfully in heavy transaction-processingd
 environments.   H > 1.  The  benefit of expandability, however, is offset substantially by1 >     the overhead imposed by the cluster itself.   D I remember when some folks pooh-poohed Virtual Memory because of its9 overhead and performance concerns.  Now it is everywhere.   D Any distributed system has some level of overhead for coordination. B In practice, the benefits of scalability and investment protectionA (along with higher availability) of a cluster have been a win for.: many.  Even IBM has developed cluster products since 1988.  7 But IBM was so scared of DLM overhead that they chose a,D hardware-centric approach to locking (Coupling Facility) that is now< complicating things for them when they try to geographicallyF distribute a cluster for disaster tolerance.  Geographically-dispersedD Parallel Sysplex clusters stretch to what, 10 km?  VMS clusters have stretched to more than 200 km.  H > 2.  Lock management may be as much as 20% for each  processor  in  theH >     cluster,  reducing the actual throughput achieved to approximately- >     80% for each additional cluster member.0  F Based on the PC-sampling data I've gathered, this overhead estimate is/ way too high -- by about an order of magnitude.2  H > 3.  One RDBMS vendor (Sybase?) estimates that the VAXCLUSTER software,H >     using the Lock Manager for all remote locks in a two-CPU  cluster,H >     might achieve a throughput gain of 1.8 for a select (READ?) trans-H >     action  and only 1.3 for a short update transaction over that of a >     single CPU.s  C This does sound like it was written around 1988, before SMP systems F entered widespread use with VMS.  In those early days, the only way toE expand from 1 to 2 CPUs (with the exception of the VAX 11/782) was tot cluster two nodes together.   B Lock manager code has improved significantly since those days, and2 cluster interconnects are a lot faster today, too.  D This data also sounds a bit strange, too, since in a 2-node cluster,= only half of the lock requests would be remote, statistically,. speaking, not all of the locks like this says.  H > 4.  Lock management also makes recovery unacceptably lengthy  for  ap-4 >     plications requiring high system availability.  C As my earlier post pointed out, recovery times today are only a few  seconds in length.  G >     When a cluster node fails, processors on all nodes stop until ther5 >     VMS connection manager re-establishes a quorum.1  A This is incorrect.  Quorum is only lost if there are insufficient F votes left in the cluster; if the votes from the departed node are not@ required for quorum (as is typically the case in most clusters), quorum is not lost.-  F And even during a quorum loss the processors do not stop; processes byF default are simply not scheduled to execute; the QUORUM capability bitF is removed from all CPUs, and all processes by default need the QUORUMD capability.  Processes which have real-time requirements can arrangeE to continue running during cluster state transitions (by removing the F QUORUM capability requirement).  (Of course, such processes would haveC to wait until after the state transition has completed before doingsB things which depend on having a quorum, like file I/O operations.)  H >     VMS connection manager re-establishes a quorum.   Then,  the  Dis-H >     tributed  Lock  Manager  must release all locks held by the failedH >     process, re-establish the Resource Manager for all resources  heldH >     by  the  failed  processor,  and re-establish the local and remoteH >     lock databases for each resource in use at the time of  the  fail-H >     ure.  While this activity is in progress, all nodes in the cluster >     are unavailable. > H >     Recovery  time  for  the  cluster is proportional to the number of9 >     locks in use and may take 5 to 8 minutes or longer.   D Here the data is off by close to 2 orders of magnitude.  I've workedD with some of the largest VMS clusters in the world, and DLM recovery# time is always measured in seconds.4  > > Because the Lock Manager is responsible for these drawbacks,G > application software that reduces its overhead is required to provide  > an environment for OLTP.  > In any distributed system, there is some level of overhead forB coordination between the systems.  Apparently someone at this timeF believed they could do a better job than the VMS DLM.  But in practiceC today, the VMS DLM is efficient enough that it gets used instead of B vendor-specific mechanisms.  Oracle on VMS has always used the VMS DLM, for example.Y  F > A DBMS that can run as a efficient database machine on one processorG > in a cluster can eliminate a great deal of overhead.  This requires a   > requester/server architecture: > H > *   The server must run as a single process on a  dedicated  processorH >     with  its  own memory management and memory resident locking mech- >     anism, > H > *   The server must manage data for all users with one dedicated imageH >     and one shared data cache so hundreds of users can be  handled  in >     4-6 Mbytes of storage, > 5 > *   The applications would run on other processors.e > F > The requester/server architecture in a VAX cluster has the following > benefits:r > H > *   A server running as  a  single  process  doesn't  require  context >     switching, > 7 > *   Its own memory management eliminates page faults,- > , > *   A shared data cache minimizes disk I/O > H > *   Because  all  data is managed by a single server on one processor,H >     locking can be handled simply by reading  and  updating  a  memoryH >     resident  table.    Memory resident lock management eliminates theG >     VMS locks that the Lock Manager establishes for concurrent users.   E But of course such an approach runs the risk of poor scalability when A the "single server on one processor" becomes a bottleneck for the C entire cluster, and its node-dependent approach falls short when itn0 comes to dealing gracefully with a node failure.  F Interestingly, starting with VMS version 7.3, a system manager has theC option of running the VMS Lock Manager on a dedicated CPU within anb SMP system if they wish.. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Apr 2002 23:36:50 +0200- From: Andi Kleen <freitag@alancoxonachip.com>-  Subject: Re: Blade architectures3 Message-ID: <m3pu19vpn1.fsf@averell.firstfloor.org>3  3 KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:e  F > I remember when some folks pooh-poohed Virtual Memory because of its; > overhead and performance concerns.  Now it is everywhere.(  I Is it? The big (4+MB) pages now often used for databases and other memory7G intensive  programs very much look like the revenge of the base addressrI register only addressing schemes (at the OS level they cause very similarc' problems e.g with memory fragmentation)r   -Andin   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:23:31 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>R  Subject: Re: Blade architectures* Message-ID: <wkpu19akzc.fsf@earthlink.net>  3 KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:tG > But of course such an approach runs the risk of poor scalability whennC > the "single server on one processor" becomes a bottleneck for thedE > entire cluster, and its node-dependent approach falls short when itM2 > comes to dealing gracefully with a node failure. > H > Interestingly, starting with VMS version 7.3, a system manager has theE > option of running the VMS Lock Manager on a dedicated CPU within ans > SMP system if they wish.  C as mentioned (and one of the reasons a.f.c. was added) was this wasXB from dec professional 1/88 ... circa about VMS version 5.0. It wasD respect to earlier thread about original input from some of the DBMSF vendors regarding "what was wrong" in VMS DLM ... and requirements forF HA/CMP DLM as to what needed to be different. As referenced in earlierC threads, it was assumed that VMS got better over the last 15 years.p  9 as part of the HA/CMP effort we coined the term "disasteryC survivability" to distinquish from disaster/recovery and ability towB survive local problems (aka as hardware & software reliability gotB better, larger percentage of outages were from 1) various kinds of' local disasters and 2) human mistakes).   C at the time we were doing HA/CMP ... we also got a chance to authorr? part of the corporate continuous availability strategy documentlD ... but the section got pulled because of non-concurrance by POK and
 Rochester.  D one of the earlier (mainframe) efforts to expand from local clustersE was an internal online service that supported all the sales and field > service people located in silicon valley ... it was eventuallyE replicated in Dallas and Boulder in the late '70s (in part because ofs seismic event concerns).? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing?YK http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#30 internal corporate network, misc.nN http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?e http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems.  Disk history...people forget X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#36 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybridod http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'H http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#30 OS Workloads : Interactive etc| http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?). http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone   random refs:? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing? @ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390L http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#145 Q: S/390 on PowerPC?: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systemsM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm9.htm#pkcs12 A PKI Question: PKCS11-> PKCS12gL http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay2.htm#cadis disaster recovery cross-postingN http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#27 Could CDR-coding be on the way back?X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#33 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#41 Where do the filesystem and RAID system belong?? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid d http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#43 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#48 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#49 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'E http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0i] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit 6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#44 Calculating a Gigalapse| http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#39 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?)= http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#67 Blade architectures = http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#68 Blade architectures    --  E Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:58:28 GMTe+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>i  Subject: Re: Blade architectures* Message-ID: <wkk7rhajcu.fsf@earthlink.net>  - Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:sE > as mentioned (and one of the reasons a.f.c. was added) was this wasrD > from dec professional 1/88 ... circa about VMS version 5.0. It was  1 another '88 vax/vms tidbit ... the previous were sI http://www.garlic.com/lynn/2002f.html#0 ... vax machines shipped thru '88 F http://www.garlic.com/lynn/2002f.html#1 ... vms cluster DLM discussion     VMS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT ________________________  @ DEC description so that customers could understand the operating= system software development process inside Digital Equipment.   ) The planning function provides focus for:s  D * Strategy - defined with development and management and accepted byD   the corporation after assigned "consultants" concur that is meshes!   with overall corporate strategyr- * Vision - as defined by programs (see below)i7 * Requirements - as segmented into programs (see below)r   Programs are defined as:  = * an  area  of focus that may cross organizational boundariesa4 * includes requirements that look 2 to 5 years ahead9 * VMS has 8 programs and 5 engineering groups, including:    -   production systems (OLTP)    -   desktop systemsd& * each driven by a team that includes:>   -   product management to look after  customer  requirementsG   -   VMS  engineering to look at feasibility and internal requirements A * reviewed by planning and management of the 5 engineering groupseD * a vision is developed by upper management (addresses why a program   is selected)  A If a program is approved, it becomes a project.  Line developmenttB managers develop a project plan based on the program requirements.1 The 5 VMS development line managers involved are:    * network and clusters * system resources (RMS, etc.) * low end systemsS * high end systems * system management.  E Project plans are reviewed and a functional specification is written. > The first pass of release planning is also done by the projectB managers.  Milestones and end dates for 30 to 50 project plans are@ prioritized.  When the functional specification is completed the' content of a release of VMS is defined.g  F There are multiple versions (threads) of VMS in existence at any point% in time. VMS, as a project, includes:g  - * 400 engineers that are geographically split.: * 8 concurrent development threads in parallel, including:   - maintenance releases   - functional release3   - hardware support (for newly developed hardware)    - layered software support * 9000 modules# * 400 MB of source code, including:e   - a 2 volume RA81 Shadow Set
   - 36% BLISSm
   - 31% Macrow$   - 20% other (mostly C and Fortran)"   - 13% procedural and build files6   - 6 million lines of code (not including DECwindows)  D DEC is using a DEC layered product, Code Management System (CMS), toD control the development process.  They feel that this has helped CMSF to evolve by feeding requirements back into the CMS development group.? A few additional tools were built to allow coordination betweens> physical locations.  Called CHARON (the gate-keeper of hell, aE creature of Greek mythology), is provides a shell over CMS to control  release classes and variants.n  ? There exists only one "master pack" that is accessed across theB7 network within the DEC worldwide development community.d  E A system build is done in 9 sequential phases.  As VMS has grown overnE time the rule of thumb is that it should run overnight on the fastest D processor available and the resultant code should reside on a single# disk.  Some examples provided were:   1 *   V1.0 - 12.5 hours on VAX 11/780 (2,356 files)s# *   V2.0 - 17 hours on a VAX 11/780 # *   V3.0 - 12 hours on a VAX 11/782p' *   V4.0 - 7.5 hours on a large clustersC *   V5.0 - 12 hours on a  cluster  with  VAX  8840s  (18,022 files)    -- eE Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/e   ------------------------------  " Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:23:50 GMT' From: alexc@world.std.com (Alex Colvin)h  Subject: Re: Blade architectures& Message-ID: <GuA17q.82K@world.std.com>  G >> I remember when some folks pooh-poohed Virtual Memory because of itsb< >> overhead and performance concerns.  Now it is everywhere.  8 what made VM work was lowering the price of real memory.  " i've heard a remark something like  ( 	Virtual memory is good for many things.+ 	Simulating real memory is not one of them.n   [anyone kow the source?]  G sure, you can access more memory than you own. but it's no way to live.    -- c
 	mac the nafa   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:05:51 GMTd/ From: "Chris Craddock" <crashclc@email.msn.com>   Subject: Re: Blade architectures@ Message-ID: <jUss8.59430$%i.5628321@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  D "Keith Parris" <KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Any? distributed system has some level of overhead for coordination.oD > In practice, the benefits of scalability and investment protectionC > (along with higher availability) of a cluster have been a win for < > many.  Even IBM has developed cluster products since 1988. >89 > But IBM was so scared of DLM overhead that they chose a F > hardware-centric approach to locking (Coupling Facility) that is now> > complicating things for them when they try to geographicallyH > distribute a cluster for disaster tolerance.  Geographically-dispersedF > Parallel Sysplex clusters stretch to what, 10 km?  VMS clusters have  > stretched to more than 200 km.  H I can't speak to the rest of your points because I don't know much aboutB VMS, but I do know a bit about S/390 and Geoplex goes considerablyD past 10Km. It also turns out to perform pretty well for the kinds ofF workloads that typically run on it. Its hard to make the case that h/w based coupling is hurting them.    ChrisD   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:50:19 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>o  Subject: Re: Blade architectures* Message-ID: <wkg025a5vs.fsf@earthlink.net>  3 KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:t9 > But IBM was so scared of DLM overhead that they chose aeF > hardware-centric approach to locking (Coupling Facility) that is now> > complicating things for them when they try to geographicallyH > distribute a cluster for disaster tolerance.  Geographically-dispersedF > Parallel Sysplex clusters stretch to what, 10 km?  VMS clusters have  > stretched to more than 200 km.  F the escon technology for mainframe was knocking around since the '70s.; in the '80s it was used to increase the data-rate (to about D 17mbytes/sec) and the distance for the bus&tag (400ft). the 10km wasE the escon distance in the '80s ... in part because it was still beingt* used with half-duplex device i/o protocol.  F SJR had done a cluster locking protocol over trotter/3088 in 1980 that= syncronised in few seconds (effectively a simulated broadcastnD full-duplex logic). They were convinced to remap the protocol on top; of LU6.2 (which has half-duplex semantics) ... and the samenA syncronization over the same hardware that had been a few secondst4 became several minutes running with LU6.2 semantics.  E the issue going past 10km with any sort of performance is asyncronous C for both disk/file operations as well as low-level locking support.d  E i believe the coupling facility is actually a stripped down operatingeD system for pathlength reasons as well as a dedicated processor (real &/or LPAR).   F my wife did the precursor work (for parallel sysplex) in the '70s when@ she did her stint in POK and was responsible for loosely-coupled< architecture (POK'ese for cluster) ... and authored/invented "peer-coupled shared data" ...   random refs:9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#16 Dual-ported disks?d4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#30 Drive letters5 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive letters 7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?eA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP? ; http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#57 Reliability and SMPse@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ?? D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)q http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to useuL http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the centuryD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#78 Mainframe operating systemsY http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?oY http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#47 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?a? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#22 Is a VAX a mainframe?i- http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#28 OT? - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#29 OT?o- http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?e- http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#37 OT?ii http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#54 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.)B< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.= http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and WheelersD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#70 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?C http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IPsQ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#44 Where are IBM z390 SPECint2000 results? 5 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#21 Theo Alkemab? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybridc? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybridr^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?J http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?d http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'v http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#52 misc loosely-coupled, sysplex, cluster, supercomputer, & electronic commerceE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 ] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#13 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitt] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#14 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exit ] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exita4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#47 five-ninesK http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crowny6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#47 Sysplex Info> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaqD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#37 Poor Man's clustering ideaE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming ConventionsrG http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#25 Crazy idea: has it been done?j= http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#71 Blade architecturesl   -- fE Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 04:44:24 GMTv* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures@ Message-ID: <Ikus8.60088$%i.5742232@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Chris Craddock" <crashclc@email.msn.com> wrote in message: news:jUss8.59430$%i.5628321@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >eF > "Keith Parris" <KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message > AnyA > distributed system has some level of overhead for coordination. F > > In practice, the benefits of scalability and investment protectionE > > (along with higher availability) of a cluster have been a win forP> > > many.  Even IBM has developed cluster products since 1988. > >h; > > But IBM was so scared of DLM overhead that they chose arH > > hardware-centric approach to locking (Coupling Facility) that is now@ > > complicating things for them when they try to geographicallyJ > > distribute a cluster for disaster tolerance.  Geographically-dispersedH > > Parallel Sysplex clusters stretch to what, 10 km?  VMS clusters have" > > stretched to more than 200 km. > J > I can't speak to the rest of your points because I don't know much aboutD > VMS, but I do know a bit about S/390 and Geoplex goes considerablyF > past 10Km. It also turns out to perform pretty well for the kinds ofH > workloads that typically run on it. Its hard to make the case that h/w! > based coupling is hurting them.e  H While I do understand that the CF provides exceptional performance for aI localized cluster, my impression is that it doesn't scale to scores (even J hundreds) of nodes (16 is the limit ISTR, but my memory could certainly beH inaccurate) nor is as insensitive to communication latency when mirroredI with a second CF at a significant distance.  One should also realize thatiL the IBM approach to all this looks incredibly alien and convoluted to anyoneK used to VMS's relatively straight-forward (one is tempted to say 'clean' oraG 'elegant') mechanisms, so it's difficult to appreciate them.  Mainframe L people just have different ways of approaching the same problems, and, whileJ those ways may work fully as well, when we look in from outside it's often  difficult to see how they could.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 05:01:19 GMTd* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures@ Message-ID: <zAus8.51871$l7.4975379@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message$ news:wkg025a5vs.fsf@earthlink.net...   ...0  G > the issue going past 10km with any sort of performance is asyncronous/E > for both disk/file operations as well as low-level locking support.e  H Only for some implementations.  VMS has no difficulty whatsoever working. well (synchronously) at much higher distances.  K Distance adds about 10 us/mile (each way) to comm latency.  For actual diskiI operations, anything much under 100 mile separation is measurable but not.K noticeable.  Lock activity *can* be more sensitive to distance depending on/L how intense it is, which to a significant degree depends on how suavely bothA DLM implementors and application designers avoid the need for it.#  K So VMS's distribution of most lock activity to the nodes actually using thesL associated data allows most lock messages to be local (or avoided entirely -J as you should remember from designing a similar DLM for AIX), whereas IIRCK the CF is a central facility that must be involved in much, though not all,.@ lock activity in a Sysplex (so distant nodes' activities will be significantly impacted).   >sG > i believe the coupling facility is actually a stripped down operatingsF > system for pathlength reasons as well as a dedicated processor (real
 > &/or LPAR).b  J My recollection is that the CF is a special microcode load of an otherwise normal z-Series CPU.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Apr 2002 00:21:33 -0500R+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n  Subject: Re: Blade architectures3 Message-ID: <KdoB4FT1nT0a@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  m In article <zAus8.51871$l7.4975379@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:c > M > Distance adds about 10 us/mile (each way) to comm latency.  For actual disk K > operations, anything much under 100 mile separation is measurable but not. > noticeable.  t  E 	It most likely would be noticeable, as an assumption is that volume wH 	shadowing would be in use (you could say let the remote site be DR, but> 	there is an implied "active-active" in your statements).  TheC 	volume shadowing problem is two round-trips for writes, timing ande 	other info found here:.  N http://www.geocities.com/keithparris/decus_presentations/s99_long_distance.ppt  
 	and here:  T http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8pjf4t%2487a%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&output=gplain  > Dual 45-megabit DS-3 links between GIGAswitches, 130-mile siteB separation distance, 252-mile circuit path length (4-5 millisecond< round-trip time), about 400 GB shadowed between sites, HSJ50H controllers with write-back cache: 4-5 hour shadowing full-copy time; 2- 3 second mini-merge time.   2 	Seems 100 miles would be about 7 milliseconds for= 	a write to complete. . . which may or may not be acceptable.e  3 	I would prefer 1 millisecond write times . . . ;-)f   				Robs   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 05:43:21 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Blade architectures@ Message-ID: <Zbvs8.53233$l7.5013438@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:KdoB4FT1nT0a@eisner.encompasserve.org...VH > In article <zAus8.51871$l7.4975379@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill& Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > > J > > Distance adds about 10 us/mile (each way) to comm latency.  For actual diskI > > operations, anything much under 100 mile separation is measurable butp noty > > noticeable.o >fE > It most likely would be noticeable, as an assumption is that volumeaI > shadowing would be in use (you could say let the remote site be DR, buts? > there is an implied "active-active" in your statements).  Thed9 > volume shadowing problem is two round-trips for writes,b  L I'd forgotten that little wrinkle.  The second round trip could be optimizedH out with a different design (certainly if access patterns localized someF activity at one end of the link and other activity at the other, as in' Keith's second example), but isn't now.t    timing andn > other info found here: >  >kL http://www.geocities.com/keithparris/decus_presentations/s99_long_distance.p pt   ...5  3 > Seems 100 miles would be about 7 milliseconds form> > a write to complete. . . which may or may not be acceptable.  I You're off by a factor of two:  Keith's graph was for round-trip times atpK one-way separation values, so a dual-round-trip write to a 100-mile-distantn@ partner would complete in about 3.5 ms. (plus disk-access time).  J Of course, if you'll re-read my statement it said "anything MUCH UNDER 100I mile separation is measurable but not noticeable", which certainly brings L the dual round-trip time down to under 3 ms. (and the single round-trip timeE for a read to under 1.5 ms.).  So even with the dual-round-trip writeeF 'feature' the distance would be noticeable only for fairly write-heavy	 activity.g   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 02:47:15 GMT.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>h  Subject: Re: Burning CD using LD' Message-ID: <3CB258B5.7ADA2F65@fsi.net>l   Tom Linden wrote:n > > > I think the meaning was clear, but 96 is the smallest common+ > multiple, not the common denominator. :-)a  ? Insofar as that's true, it's important to remember that in this E application, the numerator of teh fraction must always be an integer.tF Thus, the smallest common denominator is the smallest common multiple.  F Actually, that page could be better. I'm finding other things to do toD ensure my future and that of my family. So, the web site is taking a back seat these days.t   -- a David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsq http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:36:24 GMTa8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) Subject: Re: Daylight savings 3 Message-ID: <syks8.2007$fL6.47693@news.cpqcorp.net>   V In article <3CB1BAA3.6070401@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: >Charlie Hammond wrote: C >> OpenVMS systems prior to V7.3 do not have a mechanism to change iE >> between standard and daylight time.  DTSS can do this if installed  >> on these systemso >  >Hmmm? > I >My V7.2-1 system (I don't have DTSS installed) changed automatically on X >Sunday.  How am I special?2  4 Well, John, everybody is special in their own way...  E But in your case my guess would be that you have DECnet Plus (a.k.a. rH DECnet OSI, DECnet Phase V) installed and it is actually using [part of] DTSS without your being aware.  < DCE also can get into the picture, but I forget the details.  I What is *VERY* certain is that it is NOT happening because of anything inu; OpenVMS itself.  That functionality was only added in V7.3..   -- >K     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:35:17 -0400r0 From: Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Daylight savingse* Message-ID: <3CB1E2E5.3F4F1812@compaq.com>  O Yes, it's almost certainly due to DECnet Plus running DTSS for you.  As Charlie2L indicates, DCE can also do this.  DCE has DCE DTS, which is derived from the3 DECnet DTSS code, and offers similar functionality.8  G So... your OpenVMS system can change between standard and daylight timeoN automatically by any of these three methods:  DECnet DTSS, DCE DTS, or OpenVMS (V7.3 and up).  G Only ONE of these methods will actually change the time on a particularoO system.  In fact, DECnet DTSS and DCE DTS cannot both run on the same system at M the same time.  The time code in OpenVMS V7.3 will detect whether DECnet DTSSoD or DCE DTS is running, and allow them to make the necessary changes.   	Wayne Morrisona 	Compaq Computer Corp.   Charlie Hammond wrote: > X > In article <3CB1BAA3.6070401@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: > >Charlie Hammond wrote:tD > >> OpenVMS systems prior to V7.3 do not have a mechanism to changeG > >> between standard and daylight time.  DTSS can do this if installedo > >> on these systemsI > >n ...bF > But in your case my guess would be that you have DECnet Plus (a.k.a.J > DECnet OSI, DECnet Phase V) installed and it is actually using [part of]  > DTSS without your being aware. > > > DCE also can get into the picture, but I forget the details. > K > What is *VERY* certain is that it is NOT happening because of anything in = > OpenVMS itself.  That functionality was only added in V7.3.D   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:26:27 -0400, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com># Subject: Re: Digital 7-year plan...a+ Message-ID: <a8sueq0cu7@enews3.newsguy.com>l  > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message% news:a8s99e$r9a$2@info.cs.uofs.edu...fF > I think the point is that the customer shouldn't have to do this.  IH > still live by the old philosophy that demands service to the customer.F > I am also known for not giving second chances.  If I get bad serviceG > in a store, restaurant or from a vendor, I don't give second chances. G > No one has a lock on any market.  That means it is up to the business D > to separate me from my wallet and I am not going work real hard toD > give them my money. (and I spend my employers money like it was my > own!!) >  > |>5 > |> Obviously, you should use those email addresses.f >t% > Obviously, he should not have to!!!e >o  K That's exactly my view.  I've given them three opportunities to make a salefK and they don't want to take me up on the offer.  Now, if my client comes tohI me and says they absolutely have to get this done, then I may give in andtK send an e-mail to the folks that offered assistance.  However, they're from H engineering and there's no reason for them to be getting involved in theE sales cycle, especially not for an existing user.  They don't have to ; convince me or my client of the product's technical merits.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 01:44:14 GMTl( From: "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@attbi.com> Subject: FTP captive account?o: Message-ID: <OHrs8.12776$Ba.6354382@typhoon1.se.ipsvc.net>  G I would like to setup FTP accounts for clients that need to drop off org pickupJ files from/to our ES40 cluster (OpenVMS 7.2-1, TCP 5.0a).  The problem I'mG trying to solve is setting up the proper security.  I want to give each K client their own user name and password and FTP file area and restrict themoL to only that area.  As it seems to work now, once they log in, they are freeE to CD to anywhere they want, restricted only by the file protections.HJ Giving them unique UICs will solve some of the problem, but not all of it.J The FTP Anonymous account does what I need as far as effectively disablingJ the CD command, but this is a special case for the Anonymous account only.G It protects our system from "browsing" clients, but I can see no way to/$ protect the clients from each other.  K Is there any way to do this or is there a third party software package thatu
 will do this?g   Regards, Tom0   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:11:32 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)! Subject: Re: FTP captive account?0K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0804022211320001@1cust111.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>.  H In article <OHrs8.12776$Ba.6354382@typhoon1.se.ipsvc.net>, "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@attbi.com> wrote:w  H >I would like to setup FTP accounts for clients that need to drop off or >pickup : >files from/to our ES40 cluster (OpenVMS 7.2-1, TCP 5.0a).  C It would be nice to upgrade to more current software.  If you can't8I upgrade VMS right away, at least upgrade TCPIP to 5.1 with current ECOs. 7
 5.0a is icky./   >The problem I'mH >trying to solve is setting up the proper security.  I want to give eachL >client their own user name and password and FTP file area and restrict themM >to only that area.  As it seems to work now, once they log in, they are freeeF >to CD to anywhere they want, restricted only by the file protections.  ? So why not use file protections?  Do you have a lot of existing2H directories and files with World access?  If your in-house users can getH along with Group access, but not World access, you can put the ftp users in different groups.  H If you teach your users that World access really does mean anyone in theG whole world can access the objects, they might be more careful with the  files they care about.  D You can augment the UIC-based protection with ACLs, but that can getH complex in a large environemnt.  If you try hard enough, you can do just about anything with ACLs.,  J You can also obscure the presence of other disks and directories by givingG the ftp account(s) default disks which are based on a synthetic, rootedt logical name like FTP$DISK:iB    DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC FTP$DISK REAL$DISK:[USER.]/TRANS=(CONCEALED)K Then the ftp user will seem to start in a directory like FTP$DISK:[000000].1  I This isn't really security, since they can still browse elsewhere if they/" know, or can guess, a device name.  E The login.com for a restricted (for some definitions of "restricted") G account should likely be kept in a directory where the account does not. have write access. 8    K >Giving them unique UICs will solve some of the problem, but not all of it.tK >The FTP Anonymous account does what I need as far as effectively disablingiK >the CD command, but this is a special case for the Anonymous account only.jH >It protects our system from "browsing" clients, but I can see no way to% >protect the clients from each other., >tL >Is there any way to do this or is there a third party software package that >will do this? >M	 >Regards,B >Tom   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Apr 2002 00:25 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)n! Subject: Re: FTP captive account?a, Message-ID: <9APR200200254407@gerg.tamu.edu>  , "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@attbi.com> writes...H }I would like to setup FTP accounts for clients that need to drop off or }pickupeK }files from/to our ES40 cluster (OpenVMS 7.2-1, TCP 5.0a).  The problem I'm H }trying to solve is setting up the proper security.  I want to give eachL }client their own user name and password and FTP file area and restrict themM }to only that area.  As it seems to work now, once they log in, they are freesF }to CD to anywhere they want, restricted only by the file protections.K }Giving them unique UICs will solve some of the problem, but not all of it.wK }The FTP Anonymous account does what I need as far as effectively disablingcK }the CD command, but this is a special case for the Anonymous account only.1H }It protects our system from "browsing" clients, but I can see no way to% }protect the clients from each other.u } L }Is there any way to do this or is there a third party software package that }will do this? } 	 }Regards,  }Tom  A The FTP server that comes with Multinet allows you to restict anypI account to a specified directory tree. You just have to define a logical,uG MULTINET_username_FTP_DIRECTORY to point to the directory - the accountrG can only access that directory and any subdirectories of it (ultimately D this is translated by the .COM proceedure that starts the server forF a connection and is used to put a qualifier on the actual command that! runs the real server executable).c  D There may be some similar mechanism available for TCPIP Services andF TCPware (which may now be using the same FTP server that Multinet is).  C The HGFTP (formerly MadgoatFTP) software may have a way to do this.'B If your FTP server doesn't and this does, it would be the cheapest	 solution.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:38:54 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>Q Subject: Re: HP's viewpoint on Linux, was: Re: Sun eating major helping , ofLinux-6 Message-ID: <1020408213615.41345A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  < On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   >  >  > jlsue wrote: > I > > On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:59:39 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyn7 > > <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote:a > >  > >  > >> > >>jlsue wrote: > >> > >>8 > >>>On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:42:54 +0100, Andrew Harrison8 > >>><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun.com> wrote: > >>>s > >>>e > >>>y > >>>>jlsue wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>L > >>>>>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:57:23 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy: > >>>>><andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote: > >>>>>d > >>>>>r > > = > >>>>Who do you work for again ?? Ohh I forgot from the high.? > >>>>moral tone you have just tried to assume I thought it wasd) > >>>>some other company and not ChomPaq.  > >>>>A > >>>>If you want rude just contemplate what your customers thinkaE > >>>>about you. Your memory is short if you have forgotten Alphacide @ > >>>>Compaction and all the other things that have been done to > >>>>shaft your customers.  > >>>>E > >>>>And there is no wiggling out of this, you are responsible alongL? > >>>>with the rest of the Choir to a greater or lesser degree.b > >>>>F > >>>>Who amongst the Choir trumpeted the 25 year life span commitmentE > >>>>made by Digital for Alpha when the whole project was hemoraging C > >>>>money at a rate the vastly accelerated the demise of Digital.r > >>>> > >>>>[major snippage...]d > >>>> > >>>>H > >>>Whew!  Andrew you're really on a roll.  I've never seen so many non > >>>sequitors in one note.o > >>>S > >>>P > >>4 > >>Really care to illustrate this with examples ??? > >>7 > >>Ohh I thought not that would expose you to ridiculeu' > >>allong with your fellow Choristers.e > >> > >> > > C > > Examples of what, exactly?  Can you pose a coherent question or9- > > request so that I can actually answer it?l > >  >  > = > Ok it was a coeherant question and one that all the readers 8 > of this newsgroup understood perfectly just as you did- > but let me reprase it for you specifically.u > 5 > Did you consistently and systematically missled thea> > inhabitants of this newsgroup about the status and future of > the Alpha processor ?  > A > Did you consistently and systematically missled the inhabitantsa8 > of this newsgroup about the market position of Alpha ? > A > Did you consistently and systematically missled the inhabitantsi= > of this newsgroup about the performance of Alpha systems in 3 > particular I refer to the GS320 performance hype.8 > ; > Did you consistently and systematically flame posters who  > expressed a counter view ? > B > Do you now have any missgivings having discovered belatedly that7 > the people you flamed were right and you were wrong ?w > 		 >   A Andrew - Do you consistently and systematically misspell "misled"p and "misgivings?"d   > F > > Your entire rant is chock full of non sequitors, so it serves as a > > fine example in itself.a > > F > > Now, if you want examples that prove my previous points about yourG > > hypocrisy in that you began the name calling in this thread... just H > > let me know and I'll exract the entire thing and send it to ya.  I'mH > > not about to re-post it here:  It's entirely too long and the drivel) > > was bad enough the first time around.m > >  >  > ? > As I said earlier it ill behoves anyone from Compaq to accuse A > anyone of hypocracy. If you had an ounce of concience you would"- > realise this and quit while you are behind.  > @ > Just to illustrate this I have just met with the CIO of one ofA > your customers, he is consolidating all his existing datacentertC > applications that currently run on Alpha (OpenVMS and Tru64) ontow1 > either IBM or Sun, he hasn't decided which yet.a > 
 > Reasons. > ? > Nothing wrong with the platform but as a long term Alpha user = > he has decided to move from Alpha to something else becauseu: > the Alphacide left him with a bad taste in his mouth and? > looking exposed (he chose Alpha origionally) and the takeovert? > of Compaq by HP was the final nail in the coffin. He will not > > be buying any more Alpha servers or Compaq x86 boxes either. > > > It was activities like the ones indulged in by you and other= > members of the choir that put him in the possition he is ini; > now ironically he remarked that he didn't realise that 25 ! > years could slip by so quickly.l > ; > People like you who would like to pretend that no one wasm; > missled either deliberately or though lack of scrutiny of:: > the information they were psssing on, a bit more humilty> > on your part might make some of your soon to be ex customers > re-consider. >  > 	 > Regards  >  > Andrew Harrisoni >  >  >    -- i John Santose Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:35:44 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>r  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX$ Message-ID: <3cb1f18a$1@news.si.com>  I >That's not my recollection. In about 1981, we had a dual-processor KL-10iJ >and a 780. Very soon, almost everybody in the 150-odd user population wasE >on the VAX. Part of the reason was that the KL-10 was supporting onefL >particular application (measuring and analysing bubble and streamer chamberL >images) that severely taxed it. But the 780 certainly had no trouble at all >supporting more than 20 users.o  G We got our first VAX in 1978 and in 1980 got another.  Both handled 100  people nicely. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comtA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comn= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevento< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:47:49 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>/  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX$ Message-ID: <3cb1f460$1@news.si.com>  K >Sun came along with a lower-priced platform that could often be brought in:E >'under-cover' because it didn't have to go so high up the purchasing @ >chain-of-command to get approval to sign the check..."It's onlyI >$25,000..sign it at the department level..central purchasing/CFO doesn'trJ >need to get involved."  Remember at the time a comparable performance VAX >was $100-150K.n  I The only reason Sun got a leg-in here was because the cost per seat for aeH Sun workstation as opposed to a VAXstation was significantly lower.  HasI VAXes been more on par with Suns, we'd still be mostly a VMS shop.  As itu, is, our main business machines are now Suns. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:57:44 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>t  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX$ Message-ID: <3cb1f6b4$1@news.si.com>  G >     One of her best crackups was was around 1991 when she called JohnaK >     Covert (FYI:I'm not implying John is either stupid or an inDUHvidual.m It wasL >     just a pure Dawn moment) on her cellphone to ask him to pass the salt. John was atl4 >     the other end of the VMS table in the ZK cafe.  K That's a pure John Covert moment.  Covert used cell phones extensively eveniI before most people knew what cell phones were.  I can remember sitting at L dinner with him at one DECUS gathering and he has his cell phone on a littleH stand propped up right next to his water glass.  His cell was surgically attached to his psyche.  --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comIA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coma= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventh< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Apr 2002 19:02:42 -07003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX0 Message-ID: <qhbsctbpdp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  ' Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r > KL-10lB > serial 2172, which I used to look after, began as a 2040 and was: > upgraded in stages to a 2060 with some of the 2065 mods.  D Hopefully all of the 2065 mods, since a partial set won't work.  TheD the KL10-PW boards have to be installed together as a set, and a few& changes must be made to the backplane.   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Apr 2002 18:56:43 -07003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>a  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX0 Message-ID: <qhk7rhbpno.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>   I wrote:H > Trying to use special-purpose hardware to compete with general purposeJ > CPUs is like trying to run in front of a steamroller.  You might be ableF > to do it for a short while, but you're going to get tired before the> > steamroller does.  This is why LISP machines were ultimately > unsuccessful.n  - Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:hI > But to most embedded-type folks a LISP machine is not a special-purposei* > machine, it's a general-purpose machine.  D It depends on your perspective.  But a VAX or Sun was certainly moreC general-purpose than a LISP machine.  Not enough people wanted LISPnD machines, so the engineering costs couldn't be amortized over enough6 units to make them both cost-effective and profitable.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 04:02:25 +0000 (UTC)& From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen) Subject: Re: Itanium troubless: Message-ID: <a8tp4h$40n6$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>  0 In article <a81dll$l04$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,) Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:d. | In article <3CA3A0AE.538DD287@videotron.ca>,1 | JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:h  7 | >How much of MS's bloatware has been ported to IA64 ? 9 | >How much of Linux's software has been ported to IA64 ?e | F | Quite a lot and most.  Remember that most Linux software is portableE | and already runs on 64-bit systems.  From an application viewpoint,-G | the only differences between IA-64 and Alpha are performance and bugsS3 | related to optimisation and similar complexities.c  H   I was under the impression that the Alpha was a big-endian port, whichH presents more chances for "learning experiences" than one might imagine.   --  9 bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> CTO, TMR Associates, IncoI   Programming without software engineering is like sculpting with a chaineK saw. The very talented can produce a work of art, the mediocre wind up withtF a misshapen lump in a pile of rubble, and in neither case does the endC result have more than a passing resemblance to the original intent.e   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 04:08:04 +0000 (UTC)& From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen) Subject: Re: Itanium troublesi: Message-ID: <a8tpf4$2hvg$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>  0 In article <a81nml$s8n$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,) Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:o  E | More seriously, what I am referring to is the stage of more-or-lesstD | open shipment of development workstations using more-or-less finalF | versions of the chip to all and sundry ISVs and in-house developmentG | teams.  It is VERY hard to keep those secret, and they hadn't started , | when a little bird last cheeped in my ear. | B | What is more, I can tell you that it will take at least 3 monthsB | (and more likely 6) FOLLOWING that stage before there are enoughC | third-party applications to make it worth while for non-developert? | users (i.e. 99% of them) to buy a new system.  And I speak aso" | someone in just such a position.  D   Actually I would think the market at the moment is servers, and ifD only ONE application is (a) stable and (b) runs faster than the sameD dollars invested in Pentium whatever, then it makes sense to buy the more cost effective server.y  G   If you have a large cluster of {wed,mail,usenet,dns} servers, you runl what is cost effective.    -- y9 bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> CTO, TMR Associates, IncyI   Programming without software engineering is like sculpting with a chaincK saw. The very talented can produce a work of art, the mediocre wind up withiF a misshapen lump in a pile of rubble, and in neither case does the endC result have more than a passing resemblance to the original intent.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 05:12:13 GMTl* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Itanium troublesb@ Message-ID: <NKus8.66823$w7.5656854@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  3 "bill davidsen" <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote in message 4 news:a8tp4h$40n6$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...2 > In article <a81dll$l04$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,+ > Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:s0 > | In article <3CA3A0AE.538DD287@videotron.ca>,3 > | JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:o >a9 > | >How much of MS's bloatware has been ported to IA64 ?$; > | >How much of Linux's software has been ported to IA64 ?o > |tH > | Quite a lot and most.  Remember that most Linux software is portableG > | and already runs on 64-bit systems.  From an application viewpoint,eI > | the only differences between IA-64 and Alpha are performance and bugse5 > | related to optimisation and similar complexities.e >eJ >   I was under the impression that the Alpha was a big-endian port, whichJ > presents more chances for "learning experiences" than one might imagine.  D Not sure what you're saying above.  Though both may be very slightlyJ little-endian-preferring internally, Alpha and Itanic (and for that matterK POWER4 and I think SPARC and maybe MIPS) will run either-endian.  Linux wasoK developed primarily on little-endian machines (x86s), runs little-endian onfD Alpha (though it might run big-endian somewhere - I don't know), andG presumably will also run little-endian on Itanic.  Windows runs (to thee= degree it runs at all) little-endian everywhere that it runs.-  L The main endian problem right now involves the Tru64 people on Alpha:  givenF that little-endian Tru64 isn't planned to be ported to Itanic, they'llH either be stuck on Alpha until they can no longer buy it or will have toJ port to big-endian HP/UX on Itanic if they want to stay with their current5 vendor (unless Linux will do the job they need done).s   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 05:18:32 GMTn* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Itanium troublestC Message-ID: <HQus8.188841$VJ1.15355041@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   3 "bill davidsen" <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote in messagey4 news:a8tpf4$2hvg$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...   ...c  F >   Actually I would think the market at the moment is servers, and ifF > only ONE application is (a) stable and (b) runs faster than the sameF > dollars invested in Pentium whatever, then it makes sense to buy the > more cost effective server.r >sI >   If you have a large cluster of {wed,mail,usenet,dns} servers, you runr > what is cost effective.l  J Cost-effectiveness appears to be Itanic's main Achilles' heel:  it doesn'tK seem to be competitive *anywhere*.  There may be a brief period when peopletI who think they really need to run Windows on a 64-bit platform won't havefI any alternative, but only until Hammer arrives (and Hammer will similarly G keep Itanic from being the most cost-effective solution for non-WindowsmC 64-bit use later on, even if Itanic eventually manages to drive itsiI price/performance down below other competitors such as POWER4, Alpha, ands SPARC).a   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 13:05:50 -0700y( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Just another linux nightmare day #2< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081205.382ba5e@posting.google.com>  5 these posts are endless, but not for a vms webserver!o  F I just got a call from my DSL provider informing me that my machine isH being used to perform port scans on a bank. I thought that my system was< pretty secure but apparently I was wrong. Here is the setup,   Redhat Linux 7.2 + Ximian 9 2.4.18 kernel with Win4Lin patch (I compiled this myself)HE All current patches installed (at least all of the patchs that Ximian. supplies for Redhat 7.2)G PMfirewall, all ports closed except for SSH, HTTPS and HTTP (I've since0 closed HTTP)> Machine is acting as a router for several other Linux systems.  > I've run the port scans on the Sheilds Up site and the ones on9 DSLReports and they all report that my machine is secure.n  6 A suspicious message that I found in /var/log/messages  C Apr  5 18:07:31 dreadnought kernel: eth0: Setting promiscuous mode.oH Apr  5 18:07:31 dreadnought kernel: device eth0 entered promiscuous mode     Here are my questions,  A 1) How do I figure out if there is a trojan running on my system?w  9 2) Is there anything I else I can do to secure my system?b  H 3) Is there anyway to clean it up short of doing a complete reinstall of the OS?a  G 4) Recommendations for a hardware firewall? I need to be able to SSH to $ my network and SFTP to my machines.   ; 5) How do I disable promiscous mode on the NIC (3Com 905B)?t   Thanks,    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:36:39 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 0 Subject: RE: Just another linux nightmare day #29 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEIDELAA.tom@kednos.com>r   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Bob Ceculski [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com] & > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 1:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn. > Subject: Just another linux nightmare day #2 >> > 7 > these posts are endless, but not for a vms webserver!  >>H > I just got a call from my DSL provider informing me that my machine isJ > being used to perform port scans on a bank. I thought that my system was> > pretty secure but apparently I was wrong. Here is the setup, >y > Redhat Linux 7.2 + Ximian ; > 2.4.18 kernel with Win4Lin patch (I compiled this myself) G > All current patches installed (at least all of the patchs that Ximianp > supplies for Redhat 7.2)I > PMfirewall, all ports closed except for SSH, HTTPS and HTTP (I've sincet > closed HTTP)@ > Machine is acting as a router for several other Linux systems. >i@ > I've run the port scans on the Sheilds Up site and the ones on; > DSLReports and they all report that my machine is secure.  > 8 > A suspicious message that I found in /var/log/messages > E > Apr  5 18:07:31 dreadnought kernel: eth0: Setting promiscuous mode.cJ > Apr  5 18:07:31 dreadnought kernel: device eth0 entered promiscuous mode >s >a > Here are my questions, > C > 1) How do I figure out if there is a trojan running on my system?i  K Check file modification dates, run  ps aux and look at the output to see ifr9 something looks suspicious, check crontab for a new entrya >a; > 2) Is there anything I else I can do to secure my system?t > J > 3) Is there anyway to clean it up short of doing a complete reinstall of	 > the OS? D This is probably the safest.  Once you have done that install locate	 (althoughy you can also use find) then K locate *>base_reference  will give you a snapshot of what is on the system,iL you can update this as you move along, but you will at any arbitrary time be/ able to determine if something new has appearedt >fI > 4) Recommendations for a hardware firewall? I need to be able to SSH to % > my network and SFTP to my machines.o >c< I'm interested in that too, going shopping tomorrow at Fry's= > 5) How do I disable promiscous mode on the NIC (3Com 905B)?  >a	 > Thanks,  >h   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 12:01:17 -0700s( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Just another linux nightmare day ... = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081101.3a1bee03@posting.google.com>.  C this is from the comp.os.linux.security (what an oxymoron) site ... B I am sure glad my web site isn't linux or windoze!  Wow, Andrew, IC am sure ready now to port from vms to linux or slowaris ... No way!o0 I pulled these excerpts right from this site ...   Hi> I am new to Apache and therefore might ask something stupid...' I would be sorry but here it is anyway:q  B My apache server got shut down by some individual (I only know his0 IP)yesterday.My server is on Linux (RedHat 7.2).L I suppose he has bad intentions since he has been scanning around my ftp and others services for a few days.pK But I am not sure about what he did exactly to shut my server down and if I > can just restart it or if I have to check a few things before.    ... response from posterr  L I have bad news, I think it's very likely you were hacked. It's a very good I idea to (as you have) check into the logs, as there is often evidence of i tampering and intrusion.  I The attacker might have used an OpenSSH vulnerability to crack into your -L system. It looks like they have fiddled around with openssl on your system, , and have probably done other things as well.  H This means you have to erase everything on the machine, and re-install. H Then BEFORE you connect to the internet install all the latest security K patches from your OS vendor. Also disable all unnecessary services and set h up a firewall.  B A default install Linux system with all network services running, H unpatched, connected to the internet can last (IMHO) no more than a day + without starting to get negative attention.   H Most hacks are automated. Normally one would report the incident to the L system's owner, but this is an Asian IP and in my experience (with security A and spam issues) you will never get a reply. The listed owner is:A2 "Administrator, System  (SA90-ARIN)  [No mailbox]"   ... response from another user  I I don't think it's always necessary to do a complete re-install.  PerhapsRE on this box, but someone with the right knowledge (and known-good MD5c@ sums) should be able to fix things without too many problems. :)   ... response from another user  L Muy interesanto...never thought of using md5sums to verify the integrity of I files after an attack...how would you go about doing that? Do you md5sum lJ your entire file system, just certain system files, etc.? Do you known of E any automated programs that does this for you? Is there any built in oH integrity checks in linux? Also, having good md5sums will only tell you I that the file was changed...how would you go about restoring the file to mH its original state? I'm thinking you would have to examine each changed G file, make the correction, and md5sum it until you got it right...What oL about some script hidden down the tree that didn't exist before the attack? K ls -ar from / when you know you have a clean system and then diff it after hI the attack? Damn, you just made my gears turn....creeeech, clank, vroom, r vrooms   ... response from another user  9 Thus speaks someone who's never seen an LKM in a rootkit.   E Hint: it's depressing when you realise you can't rely on MD5, that if L you've been breached once you've quite possibly been cracked multiple times.   ... response from another user  I Depends if you go on to specify root= to the rescue mode. I wouldn't, I'dl  chroot on in there or something.  K But then you've got the `is it worth the time?' approach, to say nothing of D the need to maintain hashes of all files especially during necessary, changes - ie AIDE or tripwire, *from day 0*.  K And looking for signs of a cracked box only to find the LKM sitting there -eJ when you look at the forensics copy - blocking you from seeing interesting things, *that*'s depressing.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:24:55 +00002 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>1 Subject: Re: Just another linux nightmare day ...e4 Message-ID: <20020408192455.C21751@eisenschmidt.org>   --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inlinec+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablee   ::SIGH::  L Don't get me wrong, I love Unix (as much as I love OpenVMS), but people nee=L d to grow up and dump Linux. If you have good hardware, you need to run the=L  commerical Unix that goes with it (put AIX on your 32 way RS/6000 SP Node,=L  not Linux) and run a decent BSD at home. From a user standpoint (and prett=L y much an admin) FreeBSD and Slackware Linux are the same thing. NetBSD boo=L ts on anything, and OpenBSD is super secure out of the box. Any BSD gives y=L ou UFS as the default file system, most implement UFS logging or softupdate=L s, where Linux gives you EXT2 or EXT3 and a myriad of mediocre Journaling F=K ile System Options. BSD uvm manages memory better than Linux, on and on.=20   L Linux isn't a terrible OS, but it's really inmature. People have bought int=L o the idea, and not the product. I'm glad people are out there exparimentin=L g and learning, but they need to wake up and make some better decisions abo=+ ut what they run on their l337 cable modem.   I Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Bob Ceculski (bob@instantwhip.com) Wrote: E > this is from the comp.os.linux.security (what an oxymoron) site ...eD > I am sure glad my web site isn't linux or windoze!  Wow, Andrew, IE > am sure ready now to port from vms to linux or slowaris ... No way!o2 > I pulled these excerpts right from this site ... >=20 > Hi@ > I am new to Apache and therefore might ask something stupid...) > I would be sorry but here it is anyway:  >=20D > My apache server got shut down by some individual (I only know his2 > IP)yesterday.My server is on Linux (RedHat 7.2).L > I suppose he has bad intentions since he has been scanning around my ftp = andl! > others services for a few days.gL > But I am not sure about what he did exactly to shut my server down and if=  I@ > can just restart it or if I have to check a few things before. >=20 >  ... response from poster) >=20L > I have bad news, I think it's very likely you were hacked. It's a very go= od=204K > idea to (as you have) check into the logs, as there is often evidence of=c =20m > tampering and intrusion. >=20K > The attacker might have used an OpenSSH vulnerability to crack into your=i =20mL > system. It looks like they have fiddled around with openssl on your syste= m,=20o. > and have probably done other things as well. >=20J > This means you have to erase everything on the machine, and re-install.= =20 J > Then BEFORE you connect to the internet install all the latest security= =20 L > patches from your OS vendor. Also disable all unnecessary services and se= t=20 > up a firewall. >=20F > A default install Linux system with all network services running,=20J > unpatched, connected to the internet can last (IMHO) no more than a day= =20 - > without starting to get negative attention.@ >=20J > Most hacks are automated. Normally one would report the incident to the= =20sL > system's owner, but this is an Asian IP and in my experience (with securi= ty=20eC > and spam issues) you will never get a reply. The listed owner is:c4 > "Administrator, System  (SA90-ARIN)  [No mailbox]" >=20  > ... response from another user >=20K > I don't think it's always necessary to do a complete re-install.  PerhapsiG > on this box, but someone with the right knowledge (and known-good MD5 B > sums) should be able to fix things without too many problems. :) >=20  > ... response from another user >=20L > Muy interesanto...never thought of using md5sums to verify the integrity = of=20 K > files after an attack...how would you go about doing that? Do you md5sum=e =20nL > your entire file system, just certain system files, etc.? Do you known of= =20.I > any automated programs that does this for you? Is there any built in=20lJ > integrity checks in linux? Also, having good md5sums will only tell you= =20lK > that the file was changed...how would you go about restoring the file to=h =20rJ > its original state? I'm thinking you would have to examine each changed= =20 K > file, make the correction, and md5sum it until you got it right...What=20jL > about some script hidden down the tree that didn't exist before the attac= k?=20 L > ls -ar from / when you know you have a clean system and then diff it afte= r=20K > the attack? Damn, you just made my gears turn....creeeech, clank, vroom,=e =20  > vroom  >=20  > ... response from another user >=20; > Thus speaks someone who's never seen an LKM in a rootkit.y >=20G > Hint: it's depressing when you realise you can't rely on MD5, that ifhL > you've been breached once you've quite possibly been cracked multiple tim= es.n >=20  > ... response from another user >=20L > Depends if you go on to specify root=3D to the rescue mode. I wouldn't, I= 'd" > chroot on in there or something. >=20L > But then you've got the `is it worth the time?' approach, to say nothing = ofF > the need to maintain hashes of all files especially during necessary. > changes - ie AIDE or tripwire, *from day 0*. >=20L > And looking for signs of a cracked box only to find the LKM sitting there=  -L > when you look at the forensics copy - blocking you from seeing interesting > things, *that*'s depressing.   --=20M/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>c6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2   --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE' Content-Type: application/pgp-signaturei Content-Disposition: inline    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----s Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD)e* Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE8se6HH5fmozfjvvIRApc/AJ9acjrnQF6gmDRnJA8L39GlyI0BRQCePB3l qwAnZD/5rq/MpTKFK2F+t8U= =Vizua -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----h   --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE--   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:26:03 -0700i0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>F Subject: Lack of Display Postscript in V7.3 (was Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3), Message-ID: <3CB19A6B.3CEA4075@Mvb.Saic.Com>  > Starting a new thread that is a little clearer on the topic...  G I had previously asked the question "what do you use display postscriptiE for" in the context of the a discussion on migrating to VMS V7.3.  My,G question was poorly phrased, what I meant to ask was "what to you STILL F NEED display postscript for" since the discussion was recommending not" upgrading to V7.3 due to its lack.  8 Responses: CDA used it when displaying postscript files.  ? Got me on that one.  I've always used ghostscript/ghostview forcF displaying postscript files since it is somewhat more capable than CDA@ and never missed CDA no longer being able to display postscript.  F DECWrite uses it.  DECwrite was re-released to not use DPS.  I have it running on my V7.3 system.  H A claim was made that Notes uses it.  I don't know if this is true but IF do know that notes runs on V7.3 systems.  Perhaps a reinstall of notes7 is necessary so that it relinks to some shared library?d   Any others?o  H So, back to my "original" question.  Do you really feel that the lack ofF display postscript in V7.3 (and later) is a good reason for not moving to these later releases of VMS?   
 Mark Berrymann Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:29:22 -0500+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> J Subject: RE: Lack of Display Postscript in V7.3 (was Re: OpenVMS VAX V7.3)J Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843B1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: Mark Berryman [mailto:Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com]   ? > So, back to my "original" question.  Do you really feel that t
 > the lack ofeH > display postscript in V7.3 (and later) is a good reason for not moving! > to these later releases of VMS?c  H Well, just to throw in my two chickens and a cow, no, I don't personallyG think it should keep anyone from upgrading, but I do think it's a shames2 that it's not there any more.  I kind of like DPS.   Chris-    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer1 Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");- '   7   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 19:56:10 +0200t From: Michael Keller <m@ike.ch>u( Subject: Manual for SWXRA GX / GN wanted3 Message-ID: <a8smbf$uuu70$1@ID-7321.news.dfncis.de>s   Hi all.a  H An AS 1200 I recently purchased came with a combination of SWXRA GX / GND (controller / drive cabinet) as external storage - but unfortunately without any manuals.E Thus I am seeking now for manuals for the RAID array mentioned above.t   Can anyone help?   tia, regards   Michael Keller --  - GCS/CC/E/IT d- s+: a- C++ UL++++/S++$ P+ L+++v) E- W++ N+++ o? K? w O(++) M- V !PS !PE Y?s. PGP+ t 5? X R !tv b+ DI+ D++ G e+++ h-- r++ y+   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:00:07 GMTa+ From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org>n# Subject: More positive OpenVMS news ? Message-ID: <bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>   C Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contracte9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271   J Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission Critical Apps9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447    --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPTC.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:17:19 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsn@ Message-ID: <PFos8.62918$w7.5185433@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  6 "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in message9 news:bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...E >ME > Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contract ; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271o >yL > Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission Critical > Apps; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447f  I I mean it's nice and all, but somehow I doubt that the sale of 3 ES40s, amI DS20, and a DS10 to Tyson (if they didn't already own some of those) willhK even fund Fred for a year.  Nor is it clear that any significant portion of K that VA contract involves VMS (though, again, it's nice to see it in use at( all).l   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:41:10 GMTX# From: "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com> ' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsS? Message-ID: <a0ps8.130129$K52.20480662@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>n  L As far as I was concerned, it wasn't the fact that it was only 3 es40s and aK couple of DSxxs.  Heck, I bought more than that recently.  What I was happyyE to see was a press release that mentioned a recognizable customer andoJ actually mentioned OpenVMS rather proudly in a public press release.  ThatG to me looks like real progress!  (Of course, I thought that Alpha wouldm outlast Itanic,   duh).e  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messager: news:PFos8.62918$w7.5185433@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > 8 > "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in message; > news:bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...  > > G > > Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contractn= > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271h > > E > > Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission  Critical > > Apps= > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447s >sK > I mean it's nice and all, but somehow I doubt that the sale of 3 ES40s, auK > DS20, and a DS10 to Tyson (if they didn't already own some of those) willeJ > even fund Fred for a year.  Nor is it clear that any significant portion ofJ > that VA contract involves VMS (though, again, it's nice to see it in use at > all).g >m > - bill >s >  >H >d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:30:37 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> ' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsi# Message-ID: <3CB2281D.706@mmaz.com>n   Bill Todd wrote:  7 >"Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in messagen: >news:bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com... > E >>Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contractz; >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271u >>L >>Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission Critical >>Apps; >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447o >> >sJ >I mean it's nice and all, but somehow I doubt that the sale of 3 ES40s, aJ >DS20, and a DS10 to Tyson (if they didn't already own some of those) willL >even fund Fred for a year.  Nor is it clear that any significant portion ofL >that VA contract involves VMS (though, again, it's nice to see it in use at >all). >r  D Anyone else get their binoculars today?  I was rather amused by the H marketing campaign, about having vision.  I figure that with the $4 for G mailing and probably $10 for the gift and packaging, if this were sent cI out to twenty thousand sites, that is roughly $300k.  Couldn't that have  3 been better used to 'market' VMS to the unwashed???t   Barryk     -- r  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:01:11 -0400R- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newso, Message-ID: <3CB23D57.F554E3D1@videotron.ca>   "John N." wrote: > What I was happyG > to see was a press release that mentioned a recognizable customer andtL > actually mentioned OpenVMS rather proudly in a public press release.  That" > to me looks like real progress!   6 Renaissance was allowed to dry up with no explanation.& Now, HP is about to change everything.  K Perhaps the top VMS guys have realised that Carly has some bad news for VMSeL and they are taking the time before the vote is certified to try to convince! her to change her mind about VMS.   U Strikes me as odd that they would start now to admit that they have VMS as a product.,  N Also, note that since the announcement of the murder of Alpha,  Press Releases! about Alpha sales have increased.e  H Sorry, but until I hear/see Carly's 3 year product roadmap, I won't make- anything from stuff that comes out of Compaq.i  L If VMS survives the initial round, then HP will have 3 years to show what itI wants with VMS. If during those 3 years, VMS remains as obscure as it wasuN under Compaq, then it won't last much longer once the 3 years are over. But ifK during those 3 years, we see sustained marketing and exposure for VMS, then " perhaps we can start to celebrate.  O I just wish Carly opened the damned enveloppe and revealed her product roadmap.c   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 18:06:07 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS news = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081706.39282299@posting.google.com>n  r "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<PFos8.62918$w7.5185433@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...8 > "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in message; > news:bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...r > >eG > > Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contractp= > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271e > >rN > > Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission Critical > > Apps= > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447t > K > I mean it's nice and all, but somehow I doubt that the sale of 3 ES40s, aeK > DS20, and a DS10 to Tyson (if they didn't already own some of those) willnM > even fund Fred for a year.  Nor is it clear that any significant portion ofnM > that VA contract involves VMS (though, again, it's nice to see it in use at  > all).d >  > - bill  F does that mean that because my company only uses Alphaserver 800's andG workstations that that's not important ... large accounts are nice, buteI lots and lots of small and medium accounts are just as important ... it's.F called volume ... and as those small and medium accounts grow, so doesJ your large customer base ... if you worked for dec, no wonder they failed, you don't know how to market!g   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 19:59:46 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsa3 Message-ID: <5iMuITLBOAlv@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  m In article <PFos8.62918$w7.5185433@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:a > 8 > "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in message; > news:bFms8.26983$XP2.10431805@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...  >>F >> Compaq Selected for Department of Veteran's Affairs PCHS-2 Contract< >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/4148271 >>M >> Tyson Foods Chooses Compaq High Availability Solution for Mission Criticala >> Apps < >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/04/08/1897447 > K > I mean it's nice and all, but somehow I doubt that the sale of 3 ES40s, aeK > DS20, and a DS10 to Tyson (if they didn't already own some of those) will M > even fund Fred for a year.  Nor is it clear that any significant portion ofeM > that VA contract involves VMS (though, again, it's nice to see it in use atc > all).n >   > 	The VA contract is a big chunk of VMS.  They have always beenC 	in the spotlight on the VMS side.  How much of that $1.375 billion  	is hard to say.  > 	Tyson may be small in the grand scheme of things but is still 	a positive development.   				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 21:25:36 -0500y- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)v' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsl3 Message-ID: <1mbt8XEFj1xw@eisner.encompasserve.org>H  e In article <a0ps8.130129$K52.20480662@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com> writes:rN > As far as I was concerned, it wasn't the fact that it was only 3 es40s and aM > couple of DSxxs.  Heck, I bought more than that recently.  What I was happynG > to see was a press release that mentioned a recognizable customer andIL > actually mentioned OpenVMS rather proudly in a public press release.  That! > to me looks like real progress!   @ There were insufficient press releases to cover the early monthsB of ES45 deliveries, and rumors they were going to people who would4 never agree to press releases about their purchases.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 02:08:11 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newse@ Message-ID: <f2ss8.47782$r7.4475667@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagey7 news:d7791aa1.0204081706.39282299@posting.google.com...s  I Are you actually incapable of opening your mouth without saying somethingeG stupid, or do you just reserve all other utterances for somewhere else?s  H > does that mean that because my company only uses Alphaserver 800's andI > workstations that that's not important ... large accounts are nice, butiK > lots and lots of small and medium accounts are just as important ... it'si > called volume ...y  D Leaving aside the question of whether an equivalent dollar volume inJ small-account sales would generate equivalent profit for Compaq (I suspectF it wouldn't, given the higher percentage sales costs of handling smallJ transactions), the problem is that if a handful of small sales is all theyE have to trumpet then it's nothing *like* an equivalent dollar volume.t  5  and as those small and medium accounts grow, so doest > your large customer base ...  G *If* these small accounts grow, so does your large customer base.  It'seC worth noting that neither customer was a new one, by the way - juste! expansion of existing facilities.j  .  if you worked for dec, no wonder they failed, > you don't know how to market!a  L Idiot.  Not only do I (and most people in this newsgroup) know how to marketL VMS far better than Compaq does the job, but software engineering at DEC was1 in no way responsible for its marketing failures.2   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:52:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newse, Message-ID: <3CB25751.373CD4A7@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:H > Maybe, maybe not.  Didn't MPE have a brand-new 3- (or 5-) year roadmap* > stretching ahead of it just last summer?  N That is why, if Carly doesn't axe VMS right away and includes it in its 3 yearH roadmap, I give them 3 years to show that they indend to handle VMS moreN agressively. If they keep VMS hidden, then at the end of the 3 years, I expect the axe to fall.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 02:25:13 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS newsp@ Message-ID: <diss8.58989$%i.5577795@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CB23D57.F554E3D1@videotron.ca...   ...f  K > If VMS survives the initial round, then HP will have 3 years to show whatn it > wants with VMS.r  F Maybe, maybe not.  Didn't MPE have a brand-new 3- (or 5-) year roadmap( stretching ahead of it just last summer?  L If the merger has anything like the teething pains everyone save C&C expect,L expect Madame Defarge to start wielding her axe with vigor and nothing to be safe.p   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 04:31:00 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: More positive OpenVMS news5B Message-ID: <88us8.288903$Gf.26966613@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CB25751.373CD4A7@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:J > > Maybe, maybe not.  Didn't MPE have a brand-new 3- (or 5-) year roadmap, > > stretching ahead of it just last summer? >qK > That is why, if Carly doesn't axe VMS right away and includes it in its 3  yearJ > roadmap, I give them 3 years to show that they indend to handle VMS moreI > agressively. If they keep VMS hidden, then at the end of the 3 years, Ir expect > the axe to fall.  L The point is not how long *you* give *them* to prove something, the point isL that regardless of whether they show a 3-year roadmap for VMS next week they7 may well still kill it next fall, as they did with MPE.t   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:13:46 GMT,+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> # Subject: Re: Motif startup problem.e+ Message-ID: <3CB1FE4D.5934AB0F@ins-msi.com>o  = Log looks normal. Does your monitor support 1024 by 768 mode?p   > vgaMapScreen: DVI info -  >     Width = 1024, Height = 768  
 Jeff Campbello n8wxs@arrl.net   Hans Vlems wrote:  > N > Hardware: white box Alpha 3000, 256 MB memory and an S3 Trio/32/Trio64 video
 > adapter.3 > Software: AXP/VMS 7.3, Motif and DECnet phase IV.  > H > As soon as Motif is started the the display turns black and that's it.K > The windows server (SYS$MANAGER:DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG) looks like this:  > 4 >  8-APR-2002 13:45:26.4 Hello, this is the X serverG > This is the DECwindows X11 display server for OpenVMS AXP V7.1-010317k5 >                 compiled on Mar 17 2001 at 09:10:09e > Main address = 000386A0t, > Activating extension image DECW$SVEXT_Xie,- > extension name: Xie, entry address 002E6780k2 > Activating extension image DECW$SVEXT_DEC_XTRAP,3 > extension name: DEC-XTRAP, entry address 003B854828 > Activating extension image DECW$SVEXT_Multi_Buffering,9 > extension name: Multi-Buffering, entry address 003FA0A0S4 > DECW$TRANSPORT_COMMON image base address: 7C7300004 > DECW$TRANSPORT_DECNET image base address: 0043E000< > %DECW-I-ATTACHED, transport DECNET attached to its network3 > DECW$TRANSPORT_LOCAL image base address: 0059E000 3 > DECWINDOWS DigitalEquipmentCorp. AXP, Release 7.1t7 > Shareable Image DDX GQ, InitOutput loaded at 005E1160g > * > s3vmsScreenInit: Init S3 screen number 0& > vgaMapScreen: Call vmsInitDeviceData# > vgaMapScreen: Opening device GQA0o# > vgaMapScreen: Controller Number 0  > vgaMapScreen: DVI info -  >     Width = 1024, Height = 768. >     Video PFN = 41C0000, Video Pagelets 2048' >     CSR PFN 42C0000, CSR pagelets 128  >     Planes 8I >   Swizzle Shift 5, Swizzle Length 3, Swizzle Short Mask 8, Long Mask 187& > VGAVMS_MapScreen: CSRs are at 800000M > VGAVMS_MapScreen: VRAM C00000:2C00000, PFN ^x41C0000, pages 65536, onscreen: > C00000! >  cputype = 5 (2 = EV4, 5 = EV5) 1 > s3vmsScreenInit: - Set the Default Visual Classa( > s3vmsScreenInit: - Call cfbInitVisuals- > s3vmsScreenInit: - mask 0x80 bits-per-rgb 8 ) > s3vmsScreenInit: - Visuals Information:u >   - Root depth        = 8u >   - Number of depths  = 2o >   - Number of visuals = 6m >   - Default Visual    = 20; > s3vmsScreenInit: Actual memory size reported is: 0x100000-: > s3vmsScreenInit: Set screen geometry to match user setup: > s3vmsScreenInit: Display Mode Index 7, Refresh Rate 72Hz; > s3vmsScreenInit: Screen X 1024, Screen Y 768, density 1000& > s3vmsScreenInit: - Call miScreenInit2 > s3vmsScreenInit: Create screen private structureG > s3vmsScreenInit: Mapping Enhanced Registers (font buffer VGA address) B > s3vmsScreenInit: 2097152 bytes of enhanced register space mapped& >                  mapped at 0x2C00000& >                  PFN is at 0x4280A00; > s3vmsScreenInit: No DENSE space, using SPARSE memory onlyl; > s3vmsScreenInit: Chip type S3 Trio64, Rev: 0x54, PNP == 17) > s3vmsScreenInit: M Parameter value is 2u+ > s3vmsScreenInit: N Parameter value is 255n( > s3vmsScreenInit: FIFO checking ENABLED= > s3vmsScreenInit: Memory Layout (from start of FB in bytes):b* >  - memory total               0x001000000 >  - number of offscreen lines  0x000000BF (191)* >  - offscreen starts at        0x000C0000* >  - offscreen ends at          0x000EFC00* >  - fonts cache starts at      0x000EFC00* >  - fonts cache ends at        0x000FFC00* >  - cursor bits are at         0x000FFC00/ > s3vmsScreenInit: - Init the common VGA screens4 > VGAVMS_InitScreenCommon: Init the Screen structure7 > s3vmsScreenInit: Installing S3-specific optimizationss% > s3vmsScreenInit: Using EV5 routiness  > s3vmsScreenInit: Init hardware
 > CR55 = 0
 > CR56 = 0 > SR18 = 40  > DAC Mask = FF3? > s3HWInit: linear addr window = 1 (0=64kb, 1=1mb, 2=2mb, 3=4mb  > s3HWInit: Set MMIO modef3 > Initial M Parameter = 6, Setting M Parameter to 2i6 > Initial N Parameter = 15, Setting N Parameter to 255" > End of init, turn screen back onB > s3vmsScreenInit: Cursor Setup: shape and color is done by server2 > s3vmsScreenInit: Cursor is being moved by server, > s3vmsScreenInit: Call cfbCreateDefColormap+ > s3vmsScreenInit: - Init the backing store69 > VGAVMS_SetupConsole: Console remove value (seconds) 300i, > VGAVMS_SetupConsole: Issue AUTO_OPDOWN QIO; > VGAVMS_SetupConsole: Setup the console suspend routine... . > s3vmsScreenInit: Exit from init with successK > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_CURSOR32] removed from font path, fonts  > unavailable.K > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_CURSOR16] removed from font path, fontsg > unavailable.V > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_100DPI] removed from font path, fonts unavailable.U > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_75DPI] removed from font path, fonts unavailable.fV > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_COMMON] removed from font path, fonts unavailable.V > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_SPEEDO] removed from font path, fonts unavailable.U > DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_TYPE1] removed from font path, fonts unavailable. 2 >  8-APR-2002 13:45:36.4 Calling the dispatcher...J >  8-APR-2002 13:45:36.8 CDE$USER_DEFAULTS:[CONFIG.XFONTS.C.75DPI] removed$ > from font path, fonts unavailable.K >  8-APR-2002 13:45:36.9 CDE$USER_DEFAULTS:[CONFIG.XFONTS.C.100DPI] removed $ > from font path, fonts unavailable.N >  8-APR-2002 13:45:36.9 CDE$USER_DEFAULTS:[CONFIG.XFONTS.C] removed from font > path, fonts unavailable. >  > P.S.  > I have no control over the url >  > http://www.zfree.co.nz   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 19:37:37 GMT = From: Malcolm MacArthur <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>J2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itC Message-ID: <Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157>:  . Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote in% news:3CABA995.FC2ADFA4@jetnet.ab.ca: 8   > Bill Todd wrote: >> . [...] E >> DEC really did try, first with the PC efforts (which admittedly it B >> attempted to differentiate such that they wouldn't compete withH >> higher-margin 'real' 11s) and then with the 'real' 11.  But it hadn'tF >> yet learned how to produce low-quality products at commodity pricesB >> (as its early efforts to produce PC-compatibles demonstrated as
 >> well).  > H > What stands out to me was the fact the fact that DEC's PC did not comeH > a floppy disk format program. You had to Buy DEC's pre-formated disks.. > The weird floppy too I bet cost lots of $$$. >    and Dave Weatherall wrote:H > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. Do  > you mean the VaxMate?p  > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with theA "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of C PDP-11 based personal computers. It's based around a microprocessoraF implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-goodA menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruelly A suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-)6  K They look like Rainbows, and, rather oddly, use a Yale-type key switch for 0L the power. [That reminds me - must get a spare key cut...or disassemble the I lock and pull out all the pins so I can switch it on with a screwdriver,  K whichever is cheaper considering it's some strange key I'll probably never oF get a blank for]. They came with a composite video monitor (you had a 1 choice of monochrome or colour - mine is colour).a  C P/OS is a cut down version of RSX, with some extra features as well B (subdirectories come to mind). Development and CLI access was madeH possible with the P/OS Toolkit. RT-11 was also available and some third  party unix called Venix.  B A very nice computer for its day, and would have made ideal PDP-11F development workstations. However, it never ran ordinary RSX, althoughC (allegedly) there are conditionals in the source to compile for it.oE Would still require device support for the console to be written, butb@ that code could be borrowed from P/OS - if the source code still exists, that is...  F However, it was very overpriced for its target market (it was designedI for office use by the non-computer literate, hence the menu-driven OS) - VJ AIUI (can't say IIRC, as I was too young to be in the biz at the time...) I it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of dA that era, used a strange expansion bus format for which very few eJ peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and, / as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.   A Result: it sold like cold-cakes. Most of them ended up as consolecG machines on VAX systems. The one I have must be one of the few hundred 2K (Hmm? Maybe there were a couple of thousand tops... just guessing - anyone >J have a better guess for how many Professionals were sold?) that were sold I in the UK 'standalone'. Some oil company used it for something (which is 2L all I know of its history - it arrived with a blank HDD ;). I am sure, when L I was down in London in '98 or '99, I saw some in London Underground ticket L offices... and as it ran RT-11, some were probably used in embedded control 
 applications.l  L Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if it J could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, L anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optional B UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11  development system.i  D -Malcolm (Proud owner of a Professional 380, 512 KW core (well, OK, J they're DRAMS...), P/OS (unfortunately. Want RSX. Anyone know how to make 4 it work? :) and Venix (requires a hard drive swap)).  - Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure).t   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 20:28:20 GMTs= From: Malcolm MacArthur <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>a2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itC Message-ID: <Xns91EADAD76CCA8malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157>n  ( Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in1 news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com:    6 > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"& > <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: > F >>I'm just tired of 20 year old DS20 complaints.  VAX/VMS propelled us >>to #2, not the 10/20.m > F > As I'm a former TOPS-20 system manager and a current VMS one I'm not@ > sure why you feel more qualified to tell me I'm wrong. In 1980B > virtually every self respecting computer science school ran someD > flavour of ten or twenty and these systems were extremely popular.E > Maybe half of the UK TOPS-10/20 sites moved to VAX/VMS and the restAH > were lost mainly to Unix. Over the years the remainder have almost allF > drifted away to non Digital/Compaq systems. How the hell can you sayG > that the period where DEC went from around number one in education to 7 > near the bottom of the pile was the most successful?   >nK Agreed. And having been one of the few (in the 1990s) that benefitted from hD being at a university which used VMS systems, I am one of that ever-H shrinking pool of people leaving university with VMS experience (I also G used some god-awful thing... what was it called? Ick? Yeuch? Ah! Unix, i that's what it was... ;)  I Just a few years after I left, there were no (student) VMS systems left.  D (the ADMIN system still ran on VMS, mainly IIRC because most of the G programs on it were written [or substantially re-written] in-house). I  J think the ADMIN systems are still there. From seventeen or so VMS systems L to two... and (the most vital point) none of them available for educational  use.  J This was primarily a result of a computer-literate manager being replaced J by a person with minimal computer knowledge... then a slick salesman came K along and said "You should replace this all with NT! NT is the future!". I tE leave it to you to speculate which company this salesman came from...S  L Result: from OS diversity (Apollo Domain/OS, ULTRIX, AmigaOS, NetBSD/Amiga, I IBM AIX, IRIX, SunOS, Minix, two or three others and of course VMS) to a fD desert (Windows NT). A pattern that has been repeated at many other J universities. And somehow, this sparse environment is supposed to give us J computer science graduates with a well-rounded education in computers and  operating systems? Get real.  L (Note: despite my jibe at Unix above, I tried to get as broad an experience J as possible, and ended up using Minix, Ultrix, VMS, Domain/OS [sparingly]  and AIX...)4  H > Unlike some I like what VMS grew into. And yes I do still miss commandG > recognition and completion but why shouldn't I? And why should I haveaF > to listen to you criticize me, a customer, for still asking for it.?F > DCL is a functional command processor. But PCL/MIC enhanced EXEC wasG > functional and *sexy*. I don't think anyone would ever call DCL sexy.l >    DCL agrees:s $ call dcl sexyrE %DCL-E-INVCALL, invalid CALL nesting structure or data inconsistency h detected $v  J IMHO, VMS is a wonderful operating system - well-engineered, well thought I out and virtually uncrackable if well set up. A great system to hack (in oH the old sense). But, because of its shrinkage in education and the fact H that most computer salesmen are young, dynamic people, its growth is in G trouble, becaue most of them have never heard of it, let alone seen it!t  J (and for the benefit of those who like Unix, Unix is also a fun system to , hack, but for all the opposite reasons... ;)  A > DEC did little to smooth a TOPS-20 > VMS migration. Bell's notee> > indicates he seemed to think making COBOL,, FORTRAN and DBMSH > compatible was enough.. If you didn't believe there was far more to anG > OS than this you wouldn't likely be working in VMS engineering today.q > G > Go have a look at an Arpanet HOSTS.TXT file from 1980 and look at the G > domination of DEC machines. Something went wrong and there were many,aB > many factors, but to dismiss the reasoning put forward by PDP-10D > admins of the time who watched it all at close quarters, just like+ > that, puts you in a bad light in my view.d > : > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet"! > - Digital UCX V1 documentation.e  I ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay yG for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probably  I wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see with aG hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to which -I networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become l0 just as important as the computers themselves...   > -- > Alan >   	 -Malcolm.5  , Subtract nine for e-mail (anti-spam measure)   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Apr 2002 23:10:03 +0200- From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>S2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it/ Message-ID: <6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>,  ? Malcolm MacArthur <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> writes:t   > and Dave Weatherall wrote:I > > Really? my Rainbow did - for both CP/M and, eventually, domessdos. DoC > > you mean the VaxMate?e >g@ > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with theC > "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of0" > PDP-11 based personal computers.    Thats the one I also thought of.    $ > It's based around a microprocessorH > implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-good  C F11, IIRC, at least for the Pro350. J11 was an later chip (perhapstr the difference 350->380?).    C > menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruellymC > suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-)i  D Piece Of Shit was the term used. Don't be so squeamish, we are under adults here.    J > it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of  < Not surprising with that mechanical build. Robust as a tank.  C And a thought through design. Nice touches such as power supply faneC that to 2/3 pulls air through supply (taking it from card cage) andaE 1/3 underneath the supply (channel moulded into case!) from where thet processor board is.     B > that era, used a strange expansion bus format for which very fewK > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and,a  7 Particularly the Ethernet card seems to be VERY seldom.o    1 > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.   < IIRC it took an fixed 8051 (used as floppy controller) chip.    M > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if it K > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones,.M > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optionaliC > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11e > development system.S   Yes.    E > -Malcolm (Proud owner of a Professional 380, 512 KW core (well, OK,h) > they're DRAMS...), P/OS (unfortunately.s  K Neil Franklin, ex-owner (actually more storer, never used it) of an Pro350.2    # > Want RSX. Anyone know how to makeA6 > it work? :) and Venix (requires a hard drive swap)).  2 ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaqM DEC Professional Computer Frequently Asked Questions and Miscellaneous Triviae     --? Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ? Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, RoleplayerT/ - Intellectual Property is Intellectual RobberyE   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 17:14:03 -0400 & From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it1 Message-ID: <a8t16r$836$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>   C In article <Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157>,3? Malcolm MacArthur  <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:n [ Pro-380 story... ]  9 We had about 30 of them, which we got as part of a grant.eI P/OS was so awful nobody would touch it (despite some impressive graphicsiH demos -- ability to do slide shows of color photos, etc, with apparentlyH instant instant switching from one photo to the next).  Another strengthI was telephony -- supposedly you could plug in your telephone and it wouldML act as an answering-machine/message-router.  You could record voice messagesI and have the computer call programmed numbers and deliver it -- automatedVL telemarketing, 1980s style.  Recorded voice could be transcribed stepwise byL hand into ascii -- there was a headset and foot pedal to assist with this --F a file could be any mixture of audio and ascii pieces.  Also there wasE evidently some kind of heavy-duty Videotex assist -- it could do someyH impressive color Videotex realtime "animations".  I saw all this at some) NDAs in Maynard or Marlboro or somewhere.M  F We ran Venix on ours for a while, and eventually ported 2.9BSD to themJ and put them out in our public labs, where they served as the first publicF Unix workstations.  They lasted quite a few years.  Don't ask me what 3 happened to the 2.9BSD port, it disappeared, sorry.i   - Frankb   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:51:54 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it3 Message-ID: <t_js8.2004$fL6.47549@news.cpqcorp.net>P  % Michael A. Foley wrote in message ...l >i6 >"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message# >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com...  >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:a >>: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageB >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >> >J >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup >> >>>	 >> > wille >> > >> >>do  >> >>C7 >> >>>it?  Who do you want to manage the company?  You?o >> >>>K >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and I 8 >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. >> >>I >> >>s >> >( >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. >>A >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts.0 >>I >    Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer..1 >== >    Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first.a >   # I always mount a scratch monkey ;-)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:50:16 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itC Message-ID: <rgos8.277748$2q2.25449786@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>f  J "Malcolm MacArthur" <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message= news:Xns91EADAD76CCA8malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157...o* > Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in2 > news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com:   ...e  < > > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet"# > > - Digital UCX V1 documentation.a > J > ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to payH > for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probablyJ > wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see withH > hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to whichJ > networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would become2 > just as important as the computers themselves...  L Sigh.  DEC realized this more and earlier than just about anyone else.  WhatJ they failed to realize (especially after adopting the "VAX is the future!"J attitude) was that they couldn't dictate which computers were important to" talk with well and which were not.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:07:21 GMTT* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it@ Message-ID: <twos8.46733$l7.4480971@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J "Malcolm MacArthur" <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message= news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157...3   ...   @ > Judging from the fact he talks about the PC competing with theC > "'real' 11", he must be referring to the DEC Professional line of2" > PDP-11 based personal computers.   Yes.  #  It's based around a microprocessor.' > implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??)e  5 J-11 for your PRO-380, F-11 for the lowlier PRO-350s.a  !  and shipped with a not-very-goodsC > menu-driven operating system called P/OS. Some people may cruellywC > suggest that the initials stand for 'a quantity of excrement' ;-)'  G The only excrement was some of the stuff on top:  underneath, it was ans enhanced RSX-11M-PLUS.   ...s  $ > P/OS is a cut down version of RSX,  I M-PLUS, as I said, and I don't recall anything significant cut out of itsc kernel.C  !  with some extra features as wello  > (subdirectories come to mind).  F One biggie came in P/OS V3, when we allowed QIOs to be redirected overJ Ethernet to another system to support remote servers and diskless (or not)A workstations (transparently to existing applications).  SupportedmE peer-to-peer clustering (at least shared files and printers) as well.t  $  Development and CLI access was madeI > possible with the P/OS Toolkit. RT-11 was also available and some thirda > party unix called Venix. >(D > A very nice computer for its day, and would have made ideal PDP-11H > development workstations. However, it never ran ordinary RSX, althoughE > (allegedly) there are conditionals in the source to compile for it.rG > Would still require device support for the console to be written, butuB > that code could be borrowed from P/OS - if the source code still > exists, that is...  J IIRC the RSX group eventually inhaled the P/OS code into its own code baseK and was working on a releasable M-Plus version for the Pro hardware.  But Iv4 don't know if it ever actually completed the effort.   >mH > However, it was very overpriced for its target market (it was designedJ > for office use by the non-computer literate, hence the menu-driven OS) -K > AIUI (can't say IIRC, as I was too young to be in the biz at the time...)rJ > it was about 5/3 the price of a similar (storage, memory) spec IBM PC of > that era,a  K I think that's about right.  As I said, DEC just couldn't figure out how toh? build low-cost (and somewhat low-quality) hardware at the time.   7  used a strange expansion bus format for which very few K > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and,s1 > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.e  C I just can't remember the rationale for this.  There were certainlyoK piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating,I, and that might have been part of the reason.   ...w  J > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if itK > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones,dD > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With optionalC > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11t > development system.c  F Yup.  But the existing PDP-11 product lines *really* didn't want to be& cannibalized, and prevailed (briefly).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:51:48 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itC Message-ID: <8aps8.186080$VJ1.14910168@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>)  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:t_js8.2004$fL6.47549@news.cpqcorp.net... ' > Michael A. Foley wrote in message ...e > >e8 > >"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message% > >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com...n > >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:w > >>< > >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageD > >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >> >L > >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > >> >>> > >> > will  > >> >	 > >> >>do8 > >> >> 9 > >> >>>it?  Who do you want to manage the company?  You?a > >> >>>K > >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and  Iu: > >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > >> >>- > >> >>  > >> >* > >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. > >>C > >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts.s > >>K > >    Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer..3 > >n? > >    Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first.n > >v >l% > I always mount a scratch monkey ;-)    Gently, I hope.,   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:45:12 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of itB Message-ID: <Y3ps8.283733$Gf.26549785@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message) news:6uit71kic4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...e   ...   4 > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/FAQ/profaqH > DEC Professional Computer Frequently Asked Questions and Miscellaneous Trivia  J My, that brought back some memories (and even a couple of familiar names). Thanks.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:51:25 -0600r From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>m2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it$ Message-ID: <3CB22CFD.80005@srv.net>   Bill Todd wrote:L > "Malcolm MacArthur" <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message? > news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157...   K >>peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and,n1 >>as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.h >  > E > I just can't remember the rationale for this.  There were certainly)M > piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating,o. > and that might have been part of the reason. >   : I always heard that it was DEC's attempt at forcing you to= buy the floppies from them. I was also told that you couldn'tt: use floppies with the reinforced hubs as they could damage the RX50 drive itself.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:55:35 -0600i+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> 2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it, Message-ID: <3CB23C07.CC6C687F@jetnet.ab.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > ' > Michael A. Foley wrote in message ...e > > 8 > >"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message% > >news:3CAFBAB1.305@tsoft-inc.com..., > >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:o > >>< > >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageD > >> > news:Ieur8.134395$VJ1.11389758@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >> >L > >> >>>And you think that somehow whining and causing FUD in this newsgroup > >> >>> > >> > willn > >> >	 > >> >>do. > >> >>:9 > >> >>>it?  Who do you want to manage the company?  You?e > >> >>>M > >> >>As others have stated, a trained monkey would be an improvement, and In: > >> >>suspect I could do at least a bit better than that. > >> >>t > >> >>c > >> >* > >> > I'll take the trained monkey first. > >>C > >> You promise to be a bit less nasty, and see how long it lasts.f > >>K > >    Try to have a bit of a sense of humour. It'll help you live longer..n > >X? > >    Fred, just make sure you mount the scratch monkey first.c > >C > % > I always mount a scratch monkey ;-)x  @ I use better a quality monkey... these have no fleas to scratch. -- h% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *f+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmlh   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Apr 2002 18:53:58 -07003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>i2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it0 Message-ID: <qhofgtbps9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  ? Malcolm MacArthur <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> writes:e% >> It's based around a microprocessorhI >> implementation of the PDP-11 (J-11??) and shipped with a not-very-goodo  / Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> writes:TE > F11, IIRC, at least for the Pro350. J11 was an later chip (perhapstk > the difference 350->380?).  H Yes, the Pro 325 and Pro 350 used the F11, and the Pro 380 used teh J11.  2 >> as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.> > IIRC it took an fixed 8051 (used as floppy controller) chip.  D It had a dedicated floppy controller chip; I don't recall whether itE was a 179x or 765.  So the 8051 was the floppy controller controller.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:04:10 GMTc+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> 2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <3CB2506B.833EF689@ins-msi.com>i   Bill Todd wrote: > L > "Malcolm MacArthur" <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message? > news:Xns91EAD23DB7B73malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157...  >  > ...  >    [snip]   > 9 >  used a strange expansion bus format for which very fewdM > > peripherals were made (and for which even fewer can still be found), and,g3 > > as mentioned, couldn't format its own floppies.l > E > I just can't remember the rationale for this.  There were certainlynM > piracy-protection efforts back then that involved special floppy formating,-. > and that might have been part of the reason.  D Not piracy, but interchange. Not allowing customer formatting almost2 eliminates service calls for interchange problems.  : RX01, RX02 and RX50 subsystems cannot format their media.    > ...r > L > > Now, if it had been marketed as a PDP-11 development workstation, and if > itM > > could have run the whole gamut of PDP-11 operating systems (the DEC ones, F > > anyway) it might have been quite a successful little machine. With
 > optionalE > > UNIBUS/Q-BUS support, it would have made a nice affordable PDP-11p > > development system.t > H > Yup.  But the existing PDP-11 product lines *really* didn't want to be( > cannibalized, and prevailed (briefly). >  > - bill  
 Jeff Campbell, n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:51:12 -0000.- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)SG Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attackst6 Message-ID: <91EA945BCwarrenspencer1977@216.168.2.110>  F aaa@aaa.com (Jan-Erik Sderholm) wrote in <3CAC28FF.3C19A12F@aaa.com>:  9 >Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs. ; >This is how Rdb runs it's queries. A dynamic SQL statement 9 >is converted on-the-fly into machine code, which then iss >executed to run the query.  >  >Jan-Erik Sderholm. >   K Are you sure about this?  I've never bumped into database that compiles an oD sql query down to the native machine code of the target machine for 7 execution.  I'm no expert, but this sounds weird to me.m   ws     -- i   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)e The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:14:48 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>wG Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacksi' Message-ID: <3CB1EC28.5FECCA59@aaa.com>m  = From the Oracle presentation called "Porting Rdb to Itanium":   2 On slide 5 ("What we learned, In the beginning") : ...eB Generate query specific code at runtime using VAX instruction set ...a    . On slide 6 ("What we learned, VAX to Alpha") : ...MD Generate query specific code at runtime using Alpha instruction set ...e  B And then there is some info on how this was done on Rdb/NT and how8 it might/will be done on Rdb/IA64. I'll left that out...   Jan-Erik Sderholm       Warren Spencer wrote:r > H > aaa@aaa.com (Jan-Erik Sderholm) wrote in <3CAC28FF.3C19A12F@aaa.com>: > ; > >Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs.l= > >This is how Rdb runs it's queries. A dynamic SQL statementc; > >is converted on-the-fly into machine code, which then isb > >executed to run the query.- > >- > >Jan-Erik Sderholm. > >  > L > Are you sure about this?  I've never bumped into database that compiles anE > sql query down to the native machine code of the target machine for 9 > execution.  I'm no expert, but this sounds weird to me.9 >  > ws   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:22:09 -0500$ From: "Art Beane" <beane@petris.com>G Subject: RE: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacksh7 Message-ID: <007701c1df32$ad654aa0$352810ac@petris.com>t  9 >Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs.n  ( Indeed, every interpreter has to do it.   B Granted that LISP may be a special case, but it does not require aF distinction between data and program. It's very common to write a LISPD program that dynamically generates and executes code. A LISP program9 even has runtime access to and control over the compiler.8  	 Art Beanec Petris Technology, Inc.s (713) 403-8423   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:45:12 +0200i9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>.G Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attacks ' Message-ID: <3CB1F348.9BF6FA0B@aaa.com>   7 An interpreter do *NOT' run machine code that have beenn: created on-the-fly. It *ONLY* runs the machine code it was) created and delivered with, nothing else.m  / Does the LIST program generate *machine code* ?e/ Or just some other LISP code ? (Any interpretery1 could create a file with any interpreted languagep: and later call the appropriate interpreter to "run" it...)   Jan-Erik Sderholm.-   PS.-5 With "data" in my post below, I mean (of course) some 8 data structure belonging the the program where *machine*# code is written and later executed.  DS.g     Art Beane wrote: > ; > >Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs.l > ) > Indeed, every interpreter has to do it.t > D > Granted that LISP may be a special case, but it does not require aH > distinction between data and program. It's very common to write a LISPF > program that dynamically generates and executes code. A LISP program; > even has runtime access to and control over the compiler.s >  > Art Beane> > Petris Technology, Inc.  > (713) 403-8423   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:36:45 -0700% From: "RLC" <rlc@magicalsoftware.com>nG Subject: Re: Relative invulnerability of VMS to buffer-overflow attackst/ Message-ID: <ub3vqudbki6g6c@corp.supernews.com>a  > On the VAX this was a fairly easy thing to do.  I once wrote a< SORT package that did just that for the comparisons.  On the> Alpha, this is a much more difficult (although not impossible)? task.  I opted for another solution on the Alpha when time cameu to rewrite the sort.  ? The nice thing about VMS for buffer overflow attacks is that if0= the web application (say HTTP server) is not given privilegesRA and file system privs are set correctly, it doesn't really matter$; that you can execute code.  Access woudl be limited so thath; nothing significant could be done anyway.  Give me a servere6 running with CMKRNL priv (or just SETPRV) and I can do a LOT of damage.     Rick Cadruvi...   : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message0 news:91EA945BCwarrenspencer1977@216.168.2.110...H > aaa@aaa.com (Jan-Erik Sderholm) wrote in <3CAC28FF.3C19A12F@aaa.com>: >s; > >Now, it *is* possible to execute "data" in VMS programs. = > >This is how Rdb runs it's queries. A dynamic SQL statement ; > >is converted on-the-fly into machine code, which then isd > >executed to run the query.i > >w > >Jan-Erik Sderholm. > >o >.L > Are you sure about this?  I've never bumped into database that compiles anE > sql query down to the native machine code of the target machine for.9 > execution.  I'm no expert, but this sounds weird to me.b >  > ws >s >  > -- >y > Warren Spencer) > Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  > The Associated Press >t> > ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:28:31 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)m! Subject: Re: Server Side Includese2 Message-ID: <3cb20685.1615212302@news.wcc.govt.nz>   For anyone interested.# Had some offline e-mails with Alan..@ And still finding it difficult to reconcile the behaviour of SSI across Web Servers.s  
 The call: 	 <!--#execxD cmd="@dsa1:[apache.htdocs.wcc.command]CGI__FL_SHOW_SYS_DISK.COM" -->B works fine under Apache. The .COM file is returning html formatted text. Which is what I want.a WASD displays the html codes.o   On Alans advice I've tried: @ set /htdocs/wcc/command/*.com CONTENT=text/html in the Map File.4 (htdocs is already set up as a path in the Map file)  > When that failed I copied the .COM as a .CMD and set up a new / Content Type in the http$config.conf file, e.g.l  ) .CMD  text/html   DCL File to return HTMLq  8 also changed the above set command to reference the .CMD  All to no avail. C The only thing that delivers formatted text under WASD is to have a A type="text/html" as part of the exec call. Alas, this then breaksn( Apache which fails to produce the page.   E In the Apache docs I have as part of the CSWS install, the conclusion.B is that SSI is not a replacement for CGI. At this point I heartilyB agree, there's too many differences between SSI interpretations on different Web Servers.  E As a postscript (and I don't get any kickbacks 8-) ) if Alans book iscA anywhere near as informative as Alan has been, and as clear, thenpD it'll be a very useful guide to anyone newish to VMS Web Servers and< wanting things explained in terminology they can understand.  @ On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:21:05 GMT, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU. ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:  _ >In article <3cad15f6.1291485798@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes: G >>On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:58:38 GMT, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)  >>wrote: >>
 >>>Hi All, >>>oE >>>I've been playing around with Server Side Includes on both my CSWStC >>>(on OpenVMS Alpha) and WASD (on OpenVMS VAX) Web Servers and I'm 1 >>>coming unstuck on a number of inconsistencies.t >>>oC >>>First off, there seems to be several SSI directives that are notr3 >>>available on the CSWS Server (e.g. <!--#flastmodaH >>>file="dsa1:[www]shtml_1.shtml" --> will work on WASD but not on CSWS. >h >eE >What's nailing you here is that CSWS (and OSU) restrict the file in eP >SSI statements with file="filespec" to being relative to the current directory.O >You can't move up the tree and you can't move to a different root. Want to getE; >your own last modification date?  file="my-filename.shtml"h >lJ >WASD doesn't inflict that restriction on you; you can get to any file the9 >webserver can get to (has appropriate privilege, etc).  e > M >You can use the virtual="/URLpath" to get to any mapped file, so you should iI >be able to do <!-- #flastmod virtual="/shtml_1.shtml" --> (assuming youroK >root is mapped to your /www/ directory).  This will work in WASD, OSU, andI >CSWS. >mK >(If you do an #include virtual of a CGI script, Apache will execute it andaJ >stick the results into your output document; the CGI script path can evenK >include URL-encoded parameters in a query string, which is kind of cool.  nA >But be careful if you were actually trying to include the file.)s >oP >(Interestingly, all file access in WASD goes through the cache processor, whichK >takes paths as well as filespecs, so - if I read the code right - the filed/ >and virtual tags end up doing the same thing.)- >- >- >- >>>-I >>>The WASD and CSWS share the same UIC so there are no ownership issues.rB >>>And I know SSI is working on CSWS because some directives work. >>>DH >>>I've also found that the exec cmd SSI seems to funnction differently.G >>>The Command file I'm calling from the .shtml page formats the output.F >>>with various html codes e.g. <TR> etc. On the CSWS Server this thenF >>>displays as I would hope, alas on the WASD Server the <TR> etc. are! >>>displayed as part of the text.F >  >i >>>eI >>>So, anyone know of any CSWS documentation that actually lists what SSIe >>>directives can be used? >1M >I've been having good luck with _Professional Apache_ from Wrox Press.  It'shM >Unix-oriented, not VMS-oriented, but the design goal for CSWS appears to be  G >to be as compatible as possible with Apache on Unix while still takingYM >advantage of VMS features "under the hood."  If you buy it for this purpose,o. >be aware that only about a third is relevant. >tI >You could also just go to www.apache.org, select the HTTP server, selecttL >documentation, select 1.3, and look at the SSI tutorial and the mod_include >documentation.s >  >>> G >>>Anyone know of why WASD presents the data back from an exec cmd call3> >>>unhtml'ed? or if there are ways of modifying the behaviour? >r >>> G >>>Before suggestions are made as regards replacing Apache with WASD on G >>>the Alphas or similar, the main exercise I'm doing here is trying to C >>>learn more about Web Servers. So far I've learn't quite a lot ast$ >>>regards html and shtml standards! >>>  >pJ >Basically what's happened is that the CERN and NCSA servers invented waysH >to do a few things, and those few things ended up in OSU and WASD yearsI >ago.  (NCSA eventually became Apache, although it's more like at the DNAEJ >level than in actual inheritance of code.) Then all three servers evolvedK >semi-independently, pretty much as their developers either felt a need for.? >features or found things they'd be interested in playing with.o >0  >>>As always, thanks in advance. >>>  >>>Rob.hF >>Just a follow up, found that adding the type="text/html" to the execH >>cmd directive allowed the WASD Server to correctly display the output.D >>Alas, now the CSWS Server gives an error occurred while processingD >>directive error message but does still present the data correctly.H >>I guess it still comes down to trying to determine what SSI directives# >>are common between WASD and CSWS.  > F >If the content-type of an included/exec-ed file isn't text/html, WASDH >wraps the output in <PRE> </PRE> and you don't get your formatting tagsI >interpreted.  If you really want to make a cross-platform compatible SSIaB >document, the trick is not to use that tag, but instead in WASD's >HTTPD$MAP.CONF to l > - >SET /path-to-exec'ed-file  CONTENT=text/htmlc >hL >which will set the content-type of the file.  Then leave out the type= tag. >- >  >eI >I've been sorting out which directives are common between those two and .K >OSU.  The killer is that even when the directives are the same, the syntax0J >or the semantics are different.   WASD adds a lot of extra functionality L >through additional tags in similar directives, which makes Apache complain,. >although it does its best to keep processing. >>5 >>Might have to wait for Alans book to hit the shops!l >dO >You don't have to wait for the book to hit the shops, but don't let getting an.6 >answer now stop you from buying one when it does. :-) >m >-- Alan >a >cP >===============================================================================1 > Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUyN > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056N > Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210P >=============================================================================== >u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:30:38 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")! Subject: Re: Server Side Includesn8 Message-ID: <00A0C2C4.B51BE1DE@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ^ In article <3cb20685.1615212302@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes: >For anyone interested. $ >Had some offline e-mails with Alan.A >And still finding it difficult to reconcile the behaviour of SSIr >across Web Servers. >m >The call: <
 ><!--#execE >cmd="@dsa1:[apache.htdocs.wcc.command]CGI__FL_SHOW_SYS_DISK.COM" --> C >works fine under Apache. The .COM file is returning html formattedt >text. Which is what I want. >WASD displays the html codes. >  >On Alans advice I've tried:A >set /htdocs/wcc/command/*.com CONTENT=text/html in the Map File.o5 >(htdocs is already set up as a path in the Map file)  >1? >When that failed I copied the .COM as a .CMD and set up a new k0 >Content Type in the http$config.conf file, e.g. >d* >.CMD  text/html   DCL File to return HTML > 9 >also changed the above set command to reference the .CMD  > All to no avail.D >The only thing that delivers formatted text under WASD is to have aB >type="text/html" as part of the exec call. Alas, this then breaks) >Apache which fails to produce the page. l  E I think I mislaid some of the context in giving that advice.  I think  the    SET path CONTENT=j   will be effective if you do   ) #exec virtual /url-style-path-to-com-filee  C but Apache will choke since it doesn't support #exec  virtual.  (ItMM does support "include virtual" which actually executes a CGI if it's pointingsJ to one, but this will only get you the source of the .COM file on WASD and OSU.)]  M This means I steered you wrong altogether on "#exec cmd", since I don't thinklK WASD will ever check the content-type of a file it doesn't access through ai URL-style path.r    You might imagine you could use    #if    #elsif   #endif  I to choose which directive to execute based on what server you're running,tA but there's no common conditional syntax between Apache and WASD.r     >eF >In the Apache docs I have as part of the CSWS install, the conclusionC >is that SSI is not a replacement for CGI. At this point I heartily C >agree, there's too many differences between SSI interpretations on  >different Web Servers.k >d  O Unless you're happy with the set of SSI directives that NCSA supported in 1995 m - that still works most places.h   -- Alan   O ===============================================================================l0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056PM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210bO ===============================================================================-   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 11:54:44 -0700.1 From: KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) $ Subject: Re: Solid State disk drives= Message-ID: <6ec1251e.0204081054.24101ef2@posting.google.com>.  s "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<f%3s8.21456$Oo1.17663@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...tJ > Does anyone here have a recommendation for SSD's that work with OpenVMS?  A Quantum stopped manufacturing SSDs not long ago.  But you'd stilleE probably get the best support for an EZ* model SSD (Quantum SSDs soldeD in StorageWorks clothing) from the refurbished (including Compaq) or used equipment marketplace.i  C Imperial Technology (http://imperialtech.com/) also sells SSDs into ? the VMS marketplace, I believe.  I haven't used their products.f. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 23:13:39 +0100 + From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>5= Subject: Re: Spring Forward, Fall Back - unfortunately not :-n& Message-ID: <3CB21613.9030409@iee.org>   JF Mezei wrote:3   > Michael Austin wrote: F >>Excuse me, but isn't the Daylight savings time the first *Sunday* inH >>*April* -- which isn't until next week - April 7th -- at least that is@ >>what it is here in the USA... Unless you guys are different... >> > N > It is north america that is different. The rest of the world usually changes > last saturday in march.     # Very true. I did note that both thew$ people claiming to have problems are! in Europe whereas the only person   claiming it worked is in the US.  ! Might it be the case that the two $ failing European systems were in the wrong timezone?.    FWIW, both the OpenVMS systems I  have left happen to have handled the transition correctly (andR both are correctly set to +0).   Antonion   -- i   ---------------f- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orge   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:48:34 -0500e. From: Catherine Salvendy <csalvend@purdue.edu>' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan...a* Message-ID: <3CB1F412.EC8BC99D@purdue.edu>   Also, ADABAS from Software AG.   Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote: > ' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > E > > The one other thing that will kill VMS if Compaq/HP doesn't do itcE > > first is that now there is are only two commercially viable RDBMSsD > > that are sold to run on VMS, Rdb and Oracle, both sold by Oracle5 > > Corp. Sybase has killed their ASE product on VMS.  >  > Ahem.    Three.o > I > System 1032 has been running on [Open]VMS since the original VAX 11/780 E > days (1984-ish).   We've continued to operate on all VAXen & Alphas K > (running VMS) ever since.   (Had one customer running for years and yearss( > on a 725 - never wanted to upgrade...) > J > We may not have the marketing arms that Oracle does, but like VMS, S1032  > just runs and runs and runs... > K > (Someday I'll have the right context to use my S1032@Digital story, but Ic& > don't think I'm quite there, yet...) > = > p.s.  Kerry?  Can I get on the 'recommended software' list?A >  > -Tym Stegner > S1032 SupportT   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 23:57:12 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>i' Subject: RE: The Digital 7-year plan...aT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E4F@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Catherine ..  % >>> Also, ADABAS from Software AG.<<<a  H Good point! I am working with Customer right now that is considering VAXG to Alpha migration and their mission critical application is written ine Natural/ADABAS.e  ? It is also a cluster aware database that supports active-activeg connections (unlike Sybase).   :-)t   Regardsb  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Compaq Canada Corp.v Professional Servicesd Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----8 From: Catherine Salvendy [mailto:csalvend@purdue.edu]=20 Sent: April 8, 2002 3:49 PMa To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como' Subject: Re: The Digital 7-year plan...n     Also, ADABAS from Software AG.   Tym_Stegner@cca-int.com wrote: >=20' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:- >=20H > > The one other thing that will kill VMS if Compaq/HP doesn't do it=20H > > first is that now there is are only two commercially viable RDBMS=20G > > that are sold to run on VMS, Rdb and Oracle, both sold by Oracle=20 5 > > Corp. Sybase has killed their ASE product on VMS.c >=20 > Ahem.    Three.o >=20B > System 1032 has been running on [Open]VMS since the original VAX 11/780E > days (1984-ish).   We've continued to operate on all VAXen & AlphasmE > (running VMS) ever since.   (Had one customer running for years andw yearss( > on a 725 - never wanted to upgrade...) >=20G > We may not have the marketing arms that Oracle does, but like VMS,=20 & > S1032 just runs and runs and runs... >=20H > (Someday I'll have the right context to use my S1032@Digital story,=20, > but I don't think I'm quite there, yet...) >=20= > p.s.  Kerry?  Can I get on the 'recommended software' list?u >=20 > -Tym Stegner > S1032 Support.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:35:42 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>F7 Subject: trademarks (was: RE: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!)"; Message-ID: <01KGC1B5PGTU9D50GB@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>y  K > We will soon be having to ask the major US Corporations for permission toi > write anything  > that may be in the Dictionary.  H I was quite surprised to read that the colour magenta is a trademark of  Deutsche Telekom.  (NO joke!)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:07:15 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>; Subject: RE: trademarks (was: RE: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!)r- Message-ID: <0033000059323197000002L072*@MHS>i  B =0ADoes anyone else appreciate the irony inherent in the fact thatB the poster first made a generalization about major US corporations. and then gave a particular about a German one?   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET.$ Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 2:37 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET7 Subject: trademarks (was: RE: Selling: DS10L's NEW !!!)     H > We will soon be having to ask the major US Corporations for permissio= n to > write anything  > that may be in the Dictionary.  H I was quite surprised to read that the colour magenta is a trademark of=   Deutsche Telekom.  (NO joke!)=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:40:45 -0700 M From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>e> Subject: Re: VMS boottime - how to calculate # of days running: Message-ID: <3CB22A7C.DB7E9E13@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>   Rob Young wrote:  j > In article <dbcb2b6e.0204031051.6bd0aa1b@posting.google.com>, BHALPERN@UMCAZ.EDU (BRITT HALPERN) writes:E > > I am wondering if there is a quick way to determine the number oflJ > > days/time since VMS was last booted.  I know I can get the boottime byH > > using f$getsyi("boottime").  Not being a VMS guru, is there a way toD > > subtract the current date/time from the boottime and display theG > > number of days VMS has been running.  This would eventually be in a ? > > daily report file.  If you can point me in the direction ofi. > > documentation, that would also be helpful. > >n >sA >         Assuming 7.1 or higher and borrowing a bit from Gotfrydn6 >         (by the way, it didn't like his f$trnlnm)... >e > $ type up.comn >d > $ !.Q > $ SetData       :==     (READ SYS$INPUT DATA ; DEFINE/JOB/NOLOG DATA_LOG &DATA)nL > $ GetData       :==     DATA_SYM == F$TRNLNM("""DATA_LOG""","""LNM$JOB""") > $ !>= > $ PIPE SHOW SYSTEM | SEARCH SYS$INPUT " uptime" | 'SetData'r
 > $ 'GetData'G1 > $ clean_data = f$edit(data_sym,"COMPRESS,TRIM")  > $ !H4 > $ days_up = f$integer(f$element(8," ",clean_data)) > $ if days_up .lt. 2y > $ then > $       s = "" > $ else > $       s = "s"e	 > $ endifnE > $ write sys$output  "This node has been up for ",days_up," day''s'"r > $ @uph  G And the whole if-block and write can be condensed to a single statementS using the F$FAO lexical:  H $ Write Sys$Output F$Fao("This node has been up for !SL day!%S",days_up)  D Note that !SL and !%S must be upper case, but the output of !%S will4 correctly follow the case of the previous character.  C I think $FAO (SYS and F versions) is one of the most under-utilized E functions around.  It easily does almost any formayting task you wantc _except_ floating-point...       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfielde! F20 Automation VMS System Supportr kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comY   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 13:47:41 -0500h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)/ Subject: Re: VMS doesn't sucku3 Message-ID: <HD1y5RF1bVJK@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  c In article <a8slp1$v5pt6$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:e > See here:  >  > http://srom.zgp.org/  > Imagine the scores if their parser were able to deal with more dignified language.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:13:35 GMTy* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: VMS doesn't suckDC Message-ID: <3Kns8.185383$VJ1.14790969@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:HD1y5RF1bVJK@eisner.encompasserve.org...-G > In article <a8slp1$v5pt6$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, "James Gessling"  <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:w
 > > See here:b > >e > > http://srom.zgp.org/ > @ > Imagine the scores if their parser were able to deal with more > dignified language.f  K Then again, imagine how much one person like our own Bob the Mouth can skewc* such stats for any of the lesser-used OSs.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 17:33:15 -0700>( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: VMS doesn't suck = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081633.63b83e27@posting.google.com>   h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<HD1y5RF1bVJK@eisner.encompasserve.org>...e > In article <a8slp1$v5pt6$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:w
 > > See here:n > >  > > http://srom.zgp.org/ > @ > Imagine the scores if their parser were able to deal with more > dignified language.b  4 looks like vms blew away slowaris, didn't it Andrew?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:56:45 GMT10 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreen9 Message-ID: <3cb1f564.2402252666@proxy.news.easynews.com>c  E On 06 Apr 2002 05:21:57 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  wrote:  E >The NT kernel is 'spelling error for spelling error' compatable with>A >MICA, the VMS 3.4 derived OS for Titan or Prism(?). VAXEln is antG >enbeded system, originally with only Pascal, but later other compilers ) >as well. It is still on the Vax CONDIST.   @ MICA was the microkernel for PRISM, a RISC architecture that DEC@ developed in the 1980s but which never saw the light of day as a@ product.  The GEM code generator that is the basis of the Compaq7 compilers for Alpha was originally developed for PRISM.i  C MICA, as far as I know, was developed de novo, not derived from VMSe@ 3.4 or any other VMS release.  MICA is a microkernel; VMS is notF microkernel-based.  The original design intent was for there to be VMSD and UNIX personality modules layered on top of the MICA microkernel,+ similar to the UNIX layer on MACH in OSF/1.i  E It wouldn't be too surprising for NT's microkernel to be very similar A (if not identical) to that of MICA since that's the project Davide9 Cutler was working on when he left DEC to join Microsoft.l  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:34:00 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>% Subject: Re: Wanted: the VMS pedigreeo@ Message-ID: <c1os8.46268$l7.4434110@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  = "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in message 3 news:3cb1f564.2402252666@proxy.news.easynews.com...tG > On 06 Apr 2002 05:21:57 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  > wrote: >hG > >The NT kernel is 'spelling error for spelling error' compatable withhC > >MICA, the VMS 3.4 derived OS for Titan or Prism(?). VAXEln is an I > >enbeded system, originally with only Pascal, but later other compilerse+ > >as well. It is still on the Vax CONDIST.a >cB > MICA was the microkernel for PRISM, a RISC architecture that DECB > developed in the 1980s but which never saw the light of day as aB > product.  The GEM code generator that is the basis of the Compaq9 > compilers for Alpha was originally developed for PRISM.v >oE > MICA, as far as I know, was developed de novo, not derived from VMS B > 3.4 or any other VMS release.  MICA is a microkernel; VMS is notH > microkernel-based.  The original design intent was for there to be VMSF > and UNIX personality modules layered on top of the MICA microkernel,- > similar to the UNIX layer on MACH in OSF/1.  >nG > It wouldn't be too surprising for NT's microkernel to be very similarTC > (if not identical) to that of MICA since that's the project David=; > Cutler was working on when he left DEC to join Microsoft.-  J NT, however, is not much more of a 'microkernel' architecture then VMS is.J Rather than something where most or even much of its functionality runs asK separate processes in a separate address space, its kernel contains most oftD the heavily-used functionality that applications require (e.g., evenJ graphics support now) and farms out only performance-uncritical activitiesI (and now not even that many of those) to separate 'environment subsystem' L processes (at least for Windows applications:  POSIX and OS/2 applications -B if any of the latter still exist - may still use their environment subsystems fairly heavily).g  K Even in the earlier versions of NT, a great deal of what a real microkernel H would have performed in user-mode support processes was performed in theB kernel:  the environment subsystems were primarily used to performG activities that differed significantly between Windows, POSIX, and OS/2 J applications rather than to farm out *everything* that could reasonably be- farmed out so as to minimize privileged code.n  H I don't know whether MICA leaned more toward the traditional microkernelF approach or toward NT's.  But there are certainly sufficient points ofH extremely close similarity between VMS and NT internals to call NT a VMS derivative.u   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 04:15:54 GMTh) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) / Subject: WASD Experts - accessing the Admin I/Fp2 Message-ID: <3cb267d7.1640126286@news.wcc.govt.nz>   Hi All,o  = Okay, how do you configure WASD so that you can use the Admint4 Interface. Trying to use it from the WASD Front Page@ All attempts I make get blocked with "You don't have permission"
 messages.   5 I've added the following to the httpd$auth.conf file.   
 [WASD=VMS]  /httpd/-/admin/* myusernamer,r+w  1 Also tried with the IP address of my Workstation.l   No luck with either.  D I suspect the Server is not being started correctly, the docs aren'tD too clear as to the format of entries you place in the startup_local file.    Any pointers...?   Thanks,h   Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 04:26:42 GMT ) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)n= Subject: Re: WASD Experts - accessing the Admin I/F-Cancelledd2 Message-ID: <3cb26d6e.1641557014@news.wcc.govt.nz>  E On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 04:15:54 GMT, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)s wrote: Forget it, got it to work.   >Hi All, >m> >Okay, how do you configure WASD so that you can use the Admin5 >Interface. Trying to use it from the WASD Front PagesA >All attempts I make get blocked with "You don't have permission"o >messages.   >C6 >I've added the following to the httpd$auth.conf file. >- >[WASD=VMS] ! >/httpd/-/admin/* myusernamer,r+w1 > 2 >Also tried with the IP address of my Workstation. >= >No luck with either.- > E >I suspect the Server is not being started correctly, the docs aren'tmE >too clear as to the format of entries you place in the startup_locale >file. >s >Any pointers...?2 >. >Thanks, >1 >Rob.o >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:38:20 +01008T From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ... & Message-ID: <3CB1D58C.7020204@sun.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  5 > In article <8IosiJWJi8Vh@eisner.encompasserve.org>,n2 >  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:a > |> In article <3CACD6F8.DB80E778@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:i > |> > mS > |> > 1- HP hasn't gone thorugh the VAX-Alpha migration.  So it isn't a given thatc% > |> > HP will know how to handle it.- > |> -H > |>    HP has gone through the "absorb Apollo" and the 68000 to HP-PARCM > |>    transitions.  They dropped the old systems a lot faster than DEC did, 5 > |>    and still quite a bit faster than Compaq has.  > |> u > G > I certainly hope your not hinting that VMS's fate is likely to be thee > same as DomainIX.n >     = That would be a shame, Domain had some very nice features butu5 didn't live long once HP took over Apollo. The Apollor8 name lived longer than the products. Perhaps this is the5 model that HP will follow. Perhaps they will have thet< HP OpenVMS (HP-UX) platform. They had HP Apollo Workstations2 that if I remember correctly only supported HP-UX.     Regardsb Andrew Harrisonc   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:43:30 +0100iT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...e& Message-ID: <3CB1D6C2.9000900@sun.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:n   > In article <3CA9DBCE.9080603@sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> writes:.    L >   As for buffer overruns, I am aware of no operating system -- potentiallyK >   short of one evaluated at something approaching NCSC Class A, of courseaM >   -- that is not potentially vulnerable to buffer overruns.  This includes tO >   Solaris, Tru64 UNIX, OpenVMS, Linux, Windows, and most any other operating rL >   system I am aware of.  This is simple business economics -- there is notN >   yet a substantial market for the effort involved in NCSC Class A security N >   or equivalent -- the effort in resolving this is cost-prohibitive and the K >   market is accordingly limited.  Other folks far more cogent than I havetI >   discussed and debated API-level changes and hardware protections thatsO >   would be necessary to remedy this, and the effort involved in any of these  N >   (and in the reviews and the proofs) is non-trivial.  Verified security as O >   required for NCSC Class A is difficult -- the few folks that have achieved ,P >   NCSC Class A status have either a very bounded configuration, an impressive 2 >   operating system product achievement, or both. >  >     A Perhaps you could illuminate the choir on this one, the pervadinge6 belief is that OpenVMS is immune from buffer overruns.     Regards    Andrew Harrison-   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 17:52:16 -0700r( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...A= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081652.5c942943@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote in message news:<3CB1D6C2.9000900@sun.com>...  AC > Perhaps you could illuminate the choir on this one, the pervading 8 > belief is that OpenVMS is immune from buffer overruns. >  > 	 > Regardsa >  > Andrew Harrisonl  = maybe you need illuminated ... have you read our other posts?a  v KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<6ec1251e.0204030914.7143730f@posting.google.com>...F > Some here have contended that because TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS isH > based on Tru64 Unix code, it is thus subject to the same level of risk; > of buffer-overflow exploits as any Unix system out there.f > A > After a bit of investigation, I've discovered that VMS on Alpha"F > appears to be immune to these common smash-the-stack buffer overflow
 > attacks. > H > Here is where excellent and fortuitous engineering design comes to theF > rescue.  The Alpha memory management architecture provides some bitsF > in the Page Table Entries (PTEs) that control what type of access isG > allowed to memory.  For example, a read-only page can be protected byOF > having the Fault-On-Write bit set, and any attempt to write the pageG > causes a fault and results in a memory access violation error.  AlphadH > also has a Fault-On-Execute bit, designed to prevent an errant program? > from jumping off into the weeds and trying to execute data ascF > instructions.  On Alpha/VMS, the user stack is mapped with PTEs thatG > have the Fault-On-Execute bit set, so any attempt to branch into data0C > area on the stack results in an access violation, and the process  > dies.  > A > So Alpha VMS is immune to common stack-smashing buffer-overflowp
 > attacks. > 0 > ----------------------------------------------0 > Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org    C and I have a perfect example of this ... from process softwares web1 site,WD versions of tcpware/multinet on vms were either not affected or gave access, violations ... care to reply to this Andrew?    ( SNMP Inquiry - Cert Advisory CA-2002-03 P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  	 Question:a  D Are either MultiNet or TCPware affected by CERT Advisory CA-2002-03A in Many Implementations of the Simple Network Management ProtocolW  (SNMP), dated February 12, 2002?   Answer:   F These SNMP vulnerabilities do NOT pose security risks for MultiNet andF TCPware. MultiNet V4.4A is not vulnerable to these SNMP issues at all.D MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware have minor problems with access violationsA (resulting in the SNMP process dying), but pose no security risk. C Patches for MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3 are available from theTE TCPware ECO Database and the MultiNet ECO database. Use the followingg
 kit names:   MultiNet V4.3A: SNMP-020_A043j TCPware V5.5-3: SNMPD_V553P011    ? The nice thing about VMS for buffer overflow attacks is that ifS= the web application (say HTTP server) is not given privilegesyA and file system privs are set correctly, it doesn't really matterl; that you can execute code.  Access woudl be limited so that!; nothing significant could be done anyway.  Give me a server26 running with CMKRNL priv (or just SETPRV) and I can do a LOT of damage.   Rick Cadruvi...t   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 18:13:56 -0700e( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...<= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204081713.1a0a456b@posting.google.com>Z   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote in message news:<3CB1D6C2.9000900@sun.com>...C > Perhaps you could illuminate the choir on this one, the pervadingi8 > belief is that OpenVMS is immune from buffer overruns. > 	 > Regardsd >  > Andrew Harrisoni  B you see Andrew, it's like this ... on VMS, I put you in a box, andD you can only move around and do the things I let you in your box ...A without vms privilidges, you can't do a thing, unless I use those ? powerful acl's or proxies to extend your box ... I can give youoF whatever I need to give you, but not give you access to the system ...E in other words Andrew, a properly configured vms box is "UNHACKABLE"!    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:54:21 -04005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> = Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up) 3 Message-ID: <N0ks8.2005$fL6.47616@news.cpqcorp.net>E  I It doesn't have to do it that way.  But yes, there are JIT compilers that L generate machine code on the fly.  They have to do more than simply generateF the code and jump to it on Alpha.  They also need to get it out of thr dcache into the icache.n    B Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote in message <3CB1C441.3D8605CD@aaa.com>... >Anyone heard of Rdb ?+ >It creates machine code on-the-fly anytimee6 >someone executes an SQL statement (at least a dynamic: >SQL statement). Rdb must be able to allocate some memory,6 >write the generated machine code and then execute it. >Y >Jan-Erik Sderholmo >o >Bob Koehler wrote:i >>7 >> In article <3CAE4403.9E2917C1@earthlink.net>, ualski  <ualski@earthlink.net> writes: >>L >> > Putting code in a buffer and calling it is fun but does anyone have any >> > practical use for it? >>J >>    Yes.  Some systems generate code on the fly.  Others use it for more >>    despicable purposes.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Apr 2002 21:09:50 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1= Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 3 ... (follow-up)63 Message-ID: <pegd7JP3lOZR@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  k In article <N0ks8.2005$fL6.47616@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:eK > It doesn't have to do it that way.  But yes, there are JIT compilers that N > generate machine code on the fly.  They have to do more than simply generateH > the code and jump to it on Alpha.  They also need to get it out of thr > dcache into the icache.e  A Ok, I'll bite.  Why is it necessary to get it out of the dcache ?H   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 20:09:57 GMT-& From: Niclas Jansson <j4nss0n@0xe.net>
 Subject: X' Message-ID: <3CB1F914.31F189B5@0xe.net>e  B Hi I am new to vms and, have tried to install decwindows on my vaxG 4000-300 and reach it from a pc with X -query foo. But when i install X C on the vaxen my nic dissaperad. Anyone know how to do this if it isf possible   Niclas Jansson   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:13:00 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>B Subject: RE: X9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEICELAA.tom@kednos.com>6  3 Install putty on your pc www.chiark.greenend.org.uke   > -----Original Message-----/ > From: Niclas Jansson [mailto:j4nss0n@0xe.net].& > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 1:10 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms > Subject: X >  > D > Hi I am new to vms and, have tried to install decwindows on my vaxI > 4000-300 and reach it from a pc with X -query foo. But when i install X E > on the vaxen my nic dissaperad. Anyone know how to do this if it is-
 > possible >  > Niclas Jansson >    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.195 ************************