1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 15 Apr 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 208       Contents:6 Re: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required.6 RE: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required.6 Re: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required.  Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement  Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement  Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement& Re: ANN: HGFTP V3.0-1 is now available& Re: ANN: HGFTP V3.0-1 is now available0 Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe0 Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe/ Re: ANUNEWS gives ACCVIO; neither will it build  Re: Best DIGITAL product ever? Re: Best DIGITAL product ever? Re: Best DIGITAL product ever? Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: Blade architectures  Re: CLD problem (flight) Re: cluster  Re: cluster  Re: cluster  Re: cluster $ Re: DCPS & HP LaserJet 2200 Printers0 Re: determine display server number for SSH X11?0 Re: determine display server number for SSH X11?' Excursion PCs as X-Terminals on OpenVMS   Re: Fearless VMS Prognostication  Re: Fearless VMS Prognostication% FLIGHT (developping a world) question ) Re: FLIGHT (developping a world) question ) Re: FLIGHT (developping a world) question  Re: GNU cc vs VMS CC listings  Re: GNU cc vs VMS CC listings  hey (its Karen)  hey (its Karen) - Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium! - Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium! - Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX  Re: IA64 is not the VAX / IONA Application Server / OpenVMS Press Release  Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles! Re: Java with the WASD webserver. > Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) Re: LVD SCSI on PWS 500au 5 Re: Memo:  Re: Help! VT100 emulators - some problems. ( Re: OT Best Practises in the IT Industry OT: Disaster Recovery 0 Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!0 Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!0 Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!0 Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!) Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it  Printserver 32 Error Code  Re: Printserver 32 Error Code , Re: Redirect SYS$OUTPUT for detached process, Re: Redirect SYS$OUTPUT for detached process Re: Rotted Link in OpenVMS FAQ' SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release % Subpoena issued to HP for information ! Re: Survey on Your Alpha Hardware . Re: Talk about quick response, regarding Xalan Throughput and additional CPUs
 Vax 11/785# Re: Who has (ever) used DECmigrate? ( Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ...  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:56:11 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk? Subject: Re: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required. + Message-ID: <a9e83r$8rh$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   w In article <27d25fc7.0204140812.397340d8@posting.google.com>, norma.toolsie@bartsandthelondon.nhs.uk (nortools) writes:  >Hi,F >Does anyone know a "simple" way to extract the date and time and then@ >remove all the superfluous hyphens, colons, full-stops, spaces,F >leaving just the numbers and letters, e.g: 14APR1711. This is withoutA >having to resort to lots of symbol creations and using f$locate, G >f$extract to manipulate the created symbols. My latest procedure works F >but runs to about 14 lines. I am sure the same result can be achieved >in less lines than this.  >Thanks  >N  	 How about   J datetime =  "''f$edit(f$time(),"COLLAPSE")'" - "-" - "-" - ":" - ":" - "."   sh sym datetime    DATETIME = "15APR200210342926"    A date =  "''f$element(0," ",f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM"))'" - "-" - "-"    sh sym date    DATE = "15APR2002"    F time = "''f$element(1," ",f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM"))'" - ":" - ":" - "."   sh sym time    TIME = "10443092"   K Note. The f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM")  takes care of the leading blank returned   when  the day is a single digit.        
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:48:15 -0400 . From: "Crowley, George M." <gmcrowley@tva.gov>? Subject: RE: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required. K Message-ID: <217D812D39F9D411884700508BCFE560FF2C7A@tvawbnxch1.wbn.tva.gov>    Will this work, all the time?   4 $ dt = f$extract(0,7,f$time()) - " " - "-" - "-" + -  &         f$extract(12,5,f$time()) - ":" $ sh sym dt     DT = "15APR0844"    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 02 16:12:10 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ? Subject: Re: A simple way to manipulate the date/time required. ) Message-ID: <YHXPF88IRJP4@elias.decus.ch>   L In article <a9e83r$8rh$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:y > In article <27d25fc7.0204140812.397340d8@posting.google.com>, norma.toolsie@bartsandthelondon.nhs.uk (nortools) writes:  >>Hi, G >>Does anyone know a "simple" way to extract the date and time and then A >>remove all the superfluous hyphens, colons, full-stops, spaces, G >>leaving just the numbers and letters, e.g: 14APR1711. This is without B >>having to resort to lots of symbol creations and using f$locate,H >>f$extract to manipulate the created symbols. My latest procedure worksG >>but runs to about 14 lines. I am sure the same result can be achieved  >>in less lines than this. >>Thanks >>N  >  > How about  > L > datetime =  "''f$edit(f$time(),"COLLAPSE")'" - "-" - "-" - ":" - ":" - "." >  > sh sym datetime  >   > DATETIME = "15APR200210342926" >  > C > date =  "''f$element(0," ",f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM"))'" - "-" - "-"  > 
 > sh sym date  >  > DATE = "15APR2002" >  > H > time = "''f$element(1," ",f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM"))'" - ":" - ":" - "." > 
 > sh sym time  >  > TIME = "10443092"  > M > Note. The f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM")  takes care of the leading blank returned " > when  the day is a single digit. > , But then you risk getting dates of the form:  	 15APR2002  1MAY2002  2 What I have found useful is something like (taking your second example:  A date =  "''f$element(0," ",f$edit(f$time(),"TRIM"))'" - "-" - "-" ; if f$length(datetime) .lt. 9 then datetime = "0" + datetime     __
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:05:48 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement , Message-ID: <a9erdr$flfv$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>   Bill Todd wrote in message ... >  > K >That said, I have no idea how much it would cost to shrink EV6 (though the J >fact that the core is almost identical to EV7's might allow it to ride onK >the coattails of the EV7 shrink), and hence whether that would make sense.  >   / Remember that EV7 uis built around a EV68 core.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:57:22 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement , Message-ID: <a9f14e$2er0$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  < JF Mezei wrote in message <3CB630BC.1FED0A5@videotron.ca>...) >Fred Kleinsorge wrote (many many times): 2 >> Remember that EV7 uis built around a EV68 core. > & >OK, OK, I won't forget, I promise :-)  # Apparently a run-away news program.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:01:28 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Alphaserver EV7 announcement , Message-ID: <a9f1c4$fl21$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  L Apparently Windows crap I was using to read/write the group had some type of attack.    John Smith wrote in message < <8PBt8.1549$OI1.767@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... >Are you sure about that?   ;-)  >  > A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message ' >news:a94vdf$evvq$1@lead.zk3.dec.com...  >>! >> Bill Todd wrote in message ...  >> > >> >J >> >That said, I have no idea how much it would cost to shrink EV6 (though >theJ >> >fact that the core is almost identical to EV7's might allow it to ride onG >> >the coattails of the EV7 shrink), and hence whether that would make  >sense.  >> > >>2 >> Remember that EV7 uis built around a EV68 core. >> >> >> >> >> >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:33:24 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> / Subject: Re: ANN: HGFTP V3.0-1 is now available ) Message-ID: <3CBAC894.76E69FB8@gtech.com>    Hunter Goatley wrote: M > No, I've not done anything with ODS-5 yet---mostly because no one has asked 1 > for it yet, and I don't use ODS-5 disks myself.   > Usefull trick if you want to test ODS-5 and not really want to convert a disk:    - install LD:   - create and connec to to a virtual disk in a ODS-2 file!   - initialize it as a ODS-5 disk   : Maybe not optimal performance but good enough for testing.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:30:15 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> / Subject: Re: ANN: HGFTP V3.0-1 is now available ) Message-ID: <3CBAC7D7.6C0A19F8@gtech.com>    Phillip Helbig wrote: I > What are the main reasons for using it as opposed to the out-of-the-box  > DEC/Digital/Compaq solution?  " Much better anonymous FTP support.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:05:13 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 9 Subject: Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe , Message-ID: <a9f1j4$2bmt$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  2 Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message <3CB61B37.2060509@sun.com>...  >  >BS  > @ >When you have a server that can do 10 GB/s through a filesystem> >then come back an play with the big boys. Sun has benchmarked? >that rate on a F15000 what have you done this on a GS. Fact is . >that however you measure it the GS boxes are: > 8 >Hot, big, expensive and slow get used to it the scam is: >getting boring. Avoid worthless platitudes like optimised6 >for large aggregate I/O unless you can prove it which. >you can't. Sorry Freddy boy but you are sunk. >   L Andy, pull your head our of your -where-the-SUN-don't-shine.  Upset that youE suck on a list that you keep talking about, let's change the subject. K "Oooh, I've benchmarked my SUN to do 7 million useless things a day - prove  what you can do".   J Get a life.  There are many, many happy GS users.  And they have one thing you'll never have - VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:07:58 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 9 Subject: Re: another hint of post-merger direction, maybe , Message-ID: <a9f1o9$280r$1@lead.zk3.dec.com>  8 Aw, and I thought you said you *weren't* a market-droid.  K Come on, admit it.  You're in sales right?  Never really have done anything C technical.  Right?  You getting a lot of business from these posts?       2 Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message <3CB7026E.80500@sun.com>...  >  > 
 >jlsue wrote:  > H >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:43:59 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy6 >> <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote: >> >> >>F >>>Note that the Sun's in the top500 list are mostly larger systems asH >>>are the HP's. Where are the GS boxes ? They aren't there because they) >>>are too big, to expensive and to slow.  >>>  >>>  >>F >> See now.  There is NO WAY you would have any information to explainE >> why these systems aren't in this list.  You take one little fact - B >> that they aren't there - and you use it to fabricate this whole1 >> *opinion* that you then post as if it is fact.  >> >  >  >So what is your explanation.  > > >They are expensive, slow, big and hot was this the reason for+ >their absence or is it some other reason ?  >  > G >>>And this is a characteristic which is also evident in the commercial D >>>server space. The GS series are to big, to expensive and to slow.C >>>Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, even Rob has C >>>stopped trying to defend GS performance prefering to try to hype  >>>futures.  >>>  >>>  >>C >> Well Andrew, you must believe that if you repeat something often I >> enough people will just believe you.  Once again, though, I'm going to H >> request to see this evidence as proof for your assertions above.  Not# >> sure how you'll do that, though.  >> >  >  >Where would you like to start.  > 8 >TPC-H, slow and expensive remember TPC-H measures price8 >as well as performance and for example the the best SMP7 >system in the 300 GB category where you have published 7 >GS320 results is the IBM NUMA-Q its 50% faster and 2/3  >the cost per transaction. > 8 >You havn't done the bigger TPC-H numbers (why) but just5 >as a data point the F15000 does 3.8 x the throughput  >at 1/3 the price. > 9 >TPC-C, Slow expensive again remember TPC-C also measures 6 >both, Fujitsu 2 x the performance at 2/3 the cost. HP >1.7 x faster 1/2 the price. > : >SAP SD 2 tier slower than Sun and IBM on a per CPU basis.6 >SAP don't measure cost but given the fact that the GS8 >isn't price competitive for the other results this does >not bode well for you.  > < >Oracle applications standard benchmark, GS320 is 25% slower: >than a 24 CPU Sun F6800 and is also slower than an 24 CPU
 >IBM P680. > < >These are the commercial type benchmarks you have published. >for the boxes, no SPECJBB for example either. > 5 >Size, the GS320 covers a larger floor area  than the 4 >F15000 for example but delivers 1/3 the throughput. > / >Heat the GS320 pushes out 70% of the heat of a . >fully loaded F15000 but the F15000 is 3 x the/ >capacity. Compare the GS320 with a F6800 which , >is equivalent, the F6800 pushes out 1/2 the >heat. > * >So big, slow, hot all of these claims are* >covered. Unless you are looking for a big. >space heater there is little to recommend the >box.  > 7 >So I would suggest that unless you can find publically : >available benchmark results that are counter to this that >you put up or shut up.  > 8 >You claim that I am banging on about this without proof: >when in fact it is you who are trying to defend my claims7 >(backed up by benchmark results and your product data) / >without having anything to defend your stance.  > 1 >As I said earlier it is a scam for you to try to 0 >claim that GS boxes are performance leaders for. >commercial apps if you don't have anything to- >back you claims up. If there were no results 1 >then you could of course wriggle out of this but 1 >all the available benchmark results published by 3 >your benchmark teams prove my point and not yours.  >  > D >> I can tell you that I've seen hundreds of $millions of dollars inF >> sales of GS-series systems over the last few months.  And get this:H >> I'm not in sales!!!  So surely what I do read/hear about is only part >> of the total. >>H >> So, I'm really curious what inforamtion you use to decide that it "is0 >> also evident in the commercial server space." >> >s >e@ >Your benchmark results and your product data as I said earlier. >V >-4 >> Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq0 >> (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail) >> >e >Regards >Andrew Harrison >i >t   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 02 14:42:34 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)p8 Subject: Re: ANUNEWS gives ACCVIO; neither will it build) Message-ID: <dFHc3lN+lOjQ@elias.decus.ch>   | In article <3CB9B587.4C12@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>, Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid> writes: > Paul Sture wrote:s >>  g >> In article <k1kb9a.cgq.ln@really>, "Mark\(unMASK\)Forsyth" > <forsytMhm@optAushoSme.com.aKu> writes:p >> >G >> > All I did to get it going was to get hold of NEWS_V621_SRC.ZIP andeH >> > NEWS_V61-BETA10_DOC.ZIP. Unzipped the source into [.news_src], set I >> > default to [.news_src] and did  @newsbuild U BOTH nodebug ""  "" ""   >> > decc . Worked fine. >> >8 >>    Now, where did you find those please? I grabbed my2 >>    version from the openvms.compaq site, and it5 >>    definitely spits errors, even with your command  >>    line.  > " > ftp://ftp.arnes.si/software/VMS/ > G > It may also be good to know that there is a newsgroups for Anu--news   >  news:news.software.anu-news eH > It is rather quiet , but Bob Sloane, creator of Anu-news still answers > questions. >  Thanks  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:10:52 GMT F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)' Subject: Re: Best DIGITAL product ever? 8 Message-ID: <wjAu8.10$vE7.33826@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>  W In article <3CB86DA6.3ED3D33A@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes:rB >Datatrieve I do not know (do readers in here know that DatatrieveG >started as a personal midnite hack from a VMS engineer, who win a kindsI >of internal marketing contest with his program, and which program becamer >then a product?)t  < I'd certainly vote for Datatrieve, which is still a product,5 is still supported, and is still used in many places.I  : But it didn't start as a VMS project.  It ran first on the6 PDP-11, and was a well established product by the time the VAX and VMS came along.e   -- i(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have ao5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:45:46 +0200e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o' Subject: Re: Best DIGITAL product ever?r' Message-ID: <3CBAD98A.7CB5570C@aaa.com>g  C Someone sad that DTR-11 was the most overlayed image to ever run on @ the PDP/RSX. I used it on a 11/84 to produce a number of reports3 from mostly sequentional files. Realy nice product.g   Jan-Erik Sderholm.(   "Bart Z. Lederman" wrote:e > > > I'd certainly vote for Datatrieve, which is still a product,7 > is still supported, and is still used in many places.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:58:13 GMTrF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)' Subject: Re: Best DIGITAL product ever? 9 Message-ID: <pMCu8.18$SS7.542773@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>!  c In article <3CBAD98A.7CB5570C@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:e  D >Someone sad that DTR-11 was the most overlayed image to ever run onA >the PDP/RSX. I used it on a 11/84 to produce a number of reportsp4 >from mostly sequentional files. Realy nice product.  8 There were others that would be good candidates for this9 category: the Task Builder would probably be in the lead,u3 and some of the error log formatting utilities weres pretty complex as well.h  : I seem to recall a presentation at a DECUS symposium where9 the PDP-11 people said that building the Task Builder was < itself one of the best stress tests of the operating system.   -- -(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have a85  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.h   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 02 08:18:16 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.com   Subject: Re: Blade architectures+ Message-ID: <a9eeb5$4dv$1@bob.news.rcn.net>g  * In article <wkk7rhajcu.fsf@earthlink.net>,/    Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:m. >Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:F >> as mentioned (and one of the reasons a.f.c. was added) was this wasE >> from dec professional 1/88 ... circa about VMS version 5.0. It wasl >s2 >another '88 vax/vms tidbit ... the previous were J >http://www.garlic.com/lynn/2002f.html#0 ... vax machines shipped thru '88G >http://www.garlic.com/lynn/2002f.html#1 ... vms cluster DLM discussion" >f >i >VMS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT  >________________________A >=A >DEC description so that customers could understand the operating)> >system software development process inside Digital Equipment. > * >The planning function provides focus for: >lE >* Strategy - defined with development and management and accepted by E >  the corporation after assigned "consultants" concur that is meshes-" >  with overall corporate strategy. >* Vision - as defined by programs (see below)8 >* Requirements - as segmented into programs (see below) >p >Programs are defined as:d > > >* an  area  of focus that may cross organizational boundaries5 >* includes requirements that look 2 to 5 years ahead=: >* VMS has 8 programs and 5 engineering groups, including:  >  -   production systems (OLTP) >  -   desktop systems' >* each driven by a team that includes: ? >  -   product management to look after  customer  requirementsaH >  -   VMS  engineering to look at feasibility and internal requirementsB >* reviewed by planning and management of the 5 engineering groupsE >* a vision is developed by upper management (addresses why a programe >  is selected)0 >.B >If a program is approved, it becomes a project.  Line developmentC >managers develop a project plan based on the program requirements.t2 >The 5 VMS development line managers involved are: >r >* network and clustersu >* system resources (RMS, etc.)t >* low end systems >* high end systems  >* system management.i >tF >Project plans are reviewed and a functional specification is written.? >The first pass of release planning is also done by the project C >managers.  Milestones and end dates for 30 to 50 project plans are>A >prioritized.  When the functional specification is completed thea( >content of a release of VMS is defined. >"G >There are multiple versions (threads) of VMS in existence at any pointP& >in time. VMS, as a project, includes: >e. >* 400 engineers that are geographically split; >* 8 concurrent development threads in parallel, including:e >  - maintenance release >  - functional release"4 >  - hardware support (for newly developed hardware) >  - layered software supportf >* 9000 modulest$ >* 400 MB of source code, including: >  - a 2 volume RA81 Shadow Seti >  - 36% BLISS >  - 31% Macro% >  - 20% other (mostly C and Fortran)M# >  - 13% procedural and build files 7 >  - 6 million lines of code (not including DECwindows)' >eE >DEC is using a DEC layered product, Code Management System (CMS), toiE >control the development process.  They feel that this has helped CMSlG >to evolve by feeding requirements back into the CMS development group. @ >A few additional tools were built to allow coordination between? >physical locations.  Called CHARON (the gate-keeper of hell, avF >creature of Greek mythology), is provides a shell over CMS to control >release classes and variants. >d@ >There exists only one "master pack" that is accessed across the8 >network within the DEC worldwide development community. > F >A system build is done in 9 sequential phases.  As VMS has grown overF >time the rule of thumb is that it should run overnight on the fastestE >processor available and the resultant code should reside on a single $ >disk.  Some examples provided were: >R2 >*   V1.0 - 12.5 hours on VAX 11/780 (2,356 files)$ >*   V2.0 - 17 hours on a VAX 11/780$ >*   V3.0 - 12 hours on a VAX 11/782( >*   V4.0 - 7.5 hours on a large clusterD >*   V5.0 - 12 hours on a  cluster  with  VAX  8840s  (18,022 files) >   @ Barf.  I didn't think it was that bad.  No wonder they never gotA much done.  It's another reason why I preferred people-controlled0( rather than a source-controlled process.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 02 08:30:27 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com   Subject: Re: Blade architectures+ Message-ID: <a9ef1v$4dv$2@bob.news.rcn.net>o  ( In article <1bbscptyul.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>,-    Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote: A >"Russell P. Holsclaw" <rholsclaw@nospam.xxx.fatline.com> writes:. >> oI >> Yet? Actually, we should be preparing for the day when "virtual memory  >> paging" disappears entirely.  >> >Never.t    Good.  Somebody is thinking ;-).   >oJ >> Back in 1988, I went to one of those week-long James Martin seminars inK >> which he prognosticated about the future direction of computing. I don't F >> know if he's still doing these or not, but I haven't heard of them. >> bJ >> Anyway, one of his predictions, based on extrapolations of then-currentK >> cost/capacity trends, was that semiconductor memory devices would become?C >> cheaper per megabyte than magnetic media (i.e. hard disks). His 1 predictionsaC >> called for the cost-curves to cross sometime in the late 1990's.o >>  L >> That hasn't happened yet, because disk capacity has advanced faster than  heK >> predicted, but the trendlines are still moving toward convergence in the  >> not-too-distant future. >nA >I'll grant that it looks likely that at some point semiconductor F >memory will get cheaper than disk (no moving parts!).  But that won't+ >mean we want to get rid of virtual memory.o >eI >> When that happens, there will no longer be any economic justification 1 for1C >> virtual memory as such, because the paging devices will be more m	 expensive:J >> than the RAM. At that point, the only justification for magnetic media  will >> be non-volatility, not cost.h >> eK >> I suspect, however, that people are still so imbued with the paradigm ofaI >> virtual memory paging that it will continue to exist even after it no - longerL >> makes economic sense. This is because there are so many people around in  thek8 >> industry who have no memory of the "pre-virtual era". >> -J >> Over the long haul, however, it will be seen as an idea whose time has  comeJ >> ... and gone.   ...and those who continue to cling to the idea will be  seen >> as silly old fools. >rD >You're confusing paging with paged VM with paging to disk.  Even inE >the limit where the price of memory is 0, we'll still want to have aeF >distinction between a process's logical space and physical addresses;F >we'll want to be able to start every program at address 0 rather thanD >having ugly relocatable-code kluges, we'll want controllable sharedD >memory between processes, we'll want to be able to protect our codeG >from being overwritten by accident...  you're going to have to present-D >a better model for all this than paging before paging will go away. >oD >And before anybody brings it up, no, segmented address spaces don't >work as well as paging.  @ I'm late reading this thread.  Nobody seems to be thinking aboutA minimal program address space so that more data can be available..@ One of the greatest irritations about software I'm using on this> "old" PC is that some foolish programmer thinks that I have to@ have all code in core even when I'm never, ever going to use it.; As a result, there's just that much less core availabe for h9 data.  Now, if somebody can figure out how to efficientlyi@ execute code and retrieve data that doesn't have to be congruent8 in memory, then you might be able to throw out VM.  When? somebody figures out how to do that, they'll be able to predict  all futures.   /BAH     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:40:25 -0400e From: William_Bochnik@acml.com  Subject: Re: Blade architectures> Message-ID: <OF6A1213E5.19DAEB41-ON85256B9C.004565BE@acml.com>   True,eA       but a statement like that makes as much sense/is as obviousg as:e  @ I need to run Oracle, how big a disk/cpu/memory do I need?  Yes,= it depends, but questions like that come up all the time, ands< people need to come up with at least a starting point (after@ asking a couple of questions).  You will never give them exactlyA what they need out of the box, but if you can give them something < close, that will not require a huge investment to add on, or@ waste money on something too big, then you can make minor tweaks during the development phase.c   IMHO      [                                                                                            s[                       "Casper H.S.                                                         o[                       Dik"                            To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com            [                       <Casper.Dik@Sun.                cc:                                  u[                       COM>                     Subject: Re: Blade architectures            f[                                                                                            d[                       04/14/2002 08:01                                                     a[                       AM                                                                    [                       Please respond                                                       o[                       to "Casper H.S.                                                       [                       Dik"                                                                 -[                       <Casper.Dik@Sun.                                                     h[                       COM>                                                                 c[                                                                                             [                                                                                            t      ( peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  = >> In the Linux world there seem to be people who insist thatk it's reallyb: >> important to have a swap that's at least 3x the size of	 physical.G  2 >Hmm. 2x seems to be the rule of thumb in FreeBSD.  ? The only real answer is "you need as much swap as you need".  th allt? depends on your work load.  Rule of thumbs work badly when theyx are : used unchanged from the days we had 4MB to a whopping 16MB whereas Sun05 now support systems between 64MB and 576GB of memory.l  + Rules of thumb don't really cut it anymore.l   Casper --> Expressed in this posting are my opinions.  They are in no way relatedl2 to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.? Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and mayu be fiction rather than truth.t          F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containy@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedt= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringo3 this message to the intended recipient, any review,r@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,eA please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy # all copies of the original message.o   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 11:22:29 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)  Subject: Re: Blade architectures- Message-ID: <a9ed5l$73b@web.eng.baileynm.com>S  / In article <3CBA0F55.6030500@brussels.sgi.com>,e, Alexis Cousein  <al@brussels.sgi.com> wrote:A > I'm not saying you need them often -- but *when* you need them,p> > you'd better have them at hand - I don't climb rocks withoutD > a safety rope either, even though the intent is never to rely upon > it ;).  H On the other hand, you don't need a safety rope when you're not climbing rocks.  F If you're running a real-time control system where any crash has to beD analysed and replicating it would involve shutting down a productionK system that's supposed to be "five 9s", you need a safety rope and a spare..  H If you're running a routine task on a generic PC with spares around, andE a crash is almost always a hardware problem and the easiest fix is toMK replace the machine, a safety rope would be like packing a parachute beforeA going above the 2nd floor.  J Of course most situations are in between, and you need to make a judgement call.u   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.cE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."nL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 11:24:06 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)  Subject: Re: Blade architectures- Message-ID: <a9ed8m$768@web.eng.baileynm.com>A  * In article <a9br2s$m9h$5@news1.xs4all.nl>,, Casper H.S. Dik  <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> wrote:* > peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:K > >> In the Linux world there seem to be people who insist that it's really F > >> important to have a swap that's at least 3x the size of physical.  4 > >Hmm. 2x seems to be the rule of thumb in FreeBSD.  > > The only real answer is "you need as much swap as you need". ...t- > Rules of thumb don't really cut it anymore.i  K We seem to be in violent agreement here, since I've made that point alreadyr in this thread.r   -- s+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.eE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."aL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:59:43 -0400d; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> ! Subject: Re: CLD problem (flight)h$ Message-ID: <3cbb0769$1@news.si.com>   Thanks!  -- dA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:39:58 GMT6' From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@zfree.co.nz>s Subject: Re: cluster" Message-ID: <3cba9faf@zfree.co.nz>  3 It would be nice to have a little more information.y1 Post the output (on both nodes) from the command:    $ mc sysgen sho /cluster   Hans  ' A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj> wrote:i >pK >I have two node (A & B)  forming a cluster and  both connected on shadowedtJ >environment.  On node A I have $1$dka0, on node B its $2$dka0.  these twoM >disks are shadowed. When I boot each node, it couldn't recognised the membero7 >of the shadow set.  Its says no such device available.cH >On Node A... this error message appeared "$2$dka0 failed as a member of thev >shadow set"= >On Node B ... "$1$dka0 failed as a member of the shadow set"e >CJ >When I do a show cluster on each node....it shows only the  current node. >r@ >Can someone advise how to configure these two nodes properly.   >e >Asena >t >P >R       http://www.zfree.co.nz    .   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:14:35 GMT.( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> Subject: Re: cluster. Message-ID: <Luzu8.227828$Yv2.68520@rwcrnsc54>  H I would expect that behaviour. I assume that this is an NI cluster. WhenG Node A boots, Node B's drives are not yet available, so you'll get thateJ error. When Node B boots, Node A's drives will be available, and it shouldH re-form the shadow set. Why it's not is difficult to determine since youE didn't say exactly how and when you're mounting the drives. It's also 9 possible that some sysgen parameters need to be adjusted.a  L A *MUCH* better way to resolve this is to share the SCSI bus between the twoL CPUs, such that both drives are available to both CPUs regardless of whetherL or not the other CPU is up. Basically, you'll need to set the SCSI ID of theG controller in one machine to 6. This can get complicated, and since yousI didn't say what kind of CPUs these are, so I can't be more specific as toe how to do this..  	 Mark Levy  SMA   3 "A Bonaveidogo" <Asena@fsc.com.fj> wrote in messageeA news:BFBEDDF2CFEDD411917400508BF3A6FFCBCB01@exchsvr.FSC.COM.FJ...e >rL > I have two node (A & B)  forming a cluster and  both connected on shadowedK > environment.  On node A I have $1$dka0, on node B its $2$dka0.  these two.G > disks are shadowed. When I boot each node, it couldn't recognised the1 member8 > of the shadow set.  Its says no such device available.I > On Node A... this error message appeared "$2$dka0 failed as a member ofd ther
 > shadow set"t> > On Node B ... "$1$dka0 failed as a member of the shadow set" >.K > When I do a show cluster on each node....it shows only the  current node.i >d? > Can someone advise how to configure these two nodes properly.t >a > Asenac >u >n >    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:46:56 -0700 From: vadya@ibjus.com (Vinit)e Subject: Re: cluster= Message-ID: <95014e43.0204150746.792aa962@posting.google.com>i  u A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj> wrote in message news:<BFBEDDF2CFEDD411917400508BF3A6FFCBCB01@exchsvr.FSC.COM.FJ>...eL > I have two node (A & B)  forming a cluster and  both connected on shadowedK > environment.  On node A I have $1$dka0, on node B its $2$dka0.  these twotN > disks are shadowed. When I boot each node, it couldn't recognised the member8 > of the shadow set.  Its says no such device available.M > On Node A... this error message appeared "$2$dka0 failed as a member of ther
 > shadow set"o> > On Node B ... "$1$dka0 failed as a member of the shadow set" > K > When I do a show cluster on each node....it shows only the  current node.p > A > Can someone advise how to configure these two nodes properly.  s >  > AsenaS   Hello,  F If "show cluster" shows only one system, you do not have a VMS cluster configured on the nodes. You will have to run  5 "@sys$manager:CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM" to set up clusters.sE You will ned to know What kind of cluster interconnect are you using.s   cheers Vinitn   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:54:30 -0700 From: vadya@ibjus.com (Vinit)> Subject: Re: cluster= Message-ID: <95014e43.0204150754.362252b8@posting.google.com>e  u A Bonaveidogo <Asena@fsc.com.fj> wrote in message news:<BFBEDDF2CFEDD411917400508BF3A6FFCBCB01@exchsvr.FSC.COM.FJ>... L > I have two node (A & B)  forming a cluster and  both connected on shadowedK > environment.  On node A I have $1$dka0, on node B its $2$dka0.  these twolN > disks are shadowed. When I boot each node, it couldn't recognised the member8 > of the shadow set.  Its says no such device available.M > On Node A... this error message appeared "$2$dka0 failed as a member of theB
 > shadow set"M> > On Node B ... "$1$dka0 failed as a member of the shadow set" > K > When I do a show cluster on each node....it shows only the  current node.  > A > Can someone advise how to configure these two nodes properly.    >  > Asenad    A To Enable shadowing on system disk you need to set the parameter:  Shadow_sys_disk to 1$ a breif description is posted below:     SHADOW_SYS_DISKl  F        A SHADOW_SYS_DISK parameter value of 1 enables shadowing of theG        system disk. A value of 0 disables shadowing of the system disk.v        The default value is 0.  E        Also specify a system disk shadow set virtual unit number with"F        the SHADOW_SYS_UNIT system parameter, unless the desired system         disk unit number is DSA0.  B        To enable minimerge on a system disk, add the value 4096 toD        your existing SHADOW_SYS_DISK value. For example, if you haveG        SHADOW_SYS_DISK set to a value of 1, change it to 4097 to enableeF        minimerge. Also, be sure to set the DUMPSTYLE parameter to dumpD        off system disk, as described in the OpenVMS System Manager's        Manual.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:25:52 GMTt0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>- Subject: Re: DCPS & HP LaserJet 2200 Printersy; Message-ID: <150420021121043060%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>e  G In article <4kIt8.4374$HH5.487@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, Mark E. Levya <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote:  I > I'm trying to set up DCPS to print to an HP LaserJet 2200 printer. DCPS M > claims it's not supported, however, the LJ 2100 is. How can I convince DCPS1' > to use the definition for the LJ2100?<  E Look at the OpenVMS FAQ, avaliable at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/,e? for instructions on fiddling with the "unrecognized" modules int DCPS$DEVCTL.TLB.  D DCPS V2.1, available soon, has full support for the HP LaserJet 2200E printer.  If you would like to run a field test version, let me know.k   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Compaq Computer Corporation    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:21:45 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r9 Subject: Re: determine display server number for SSH X11? 3 Message-ID: <G13IVOf2WjYw@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  p In article <3cb774d4.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes: > D > Use the online docs, Luke. In the XStart application command line,C > @a and @d are mapped to the X server's IP address and the displayp5 > descriptor (<IP>:<display>.<screen>), respectively.a  H    Docs for a PC app?  Wonders never cease.  Thanks, I'll give it a try.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:42:36 -0400t; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>a9 Subject: Re: determine display server number for SSH X11?o$ Message-ID: <3cbaf557$1@news.si.com>  D >   I'm neither a Windows nor an Exceed expert.  Where do I gfet the >   details.  L From Exceed's HELP.  In Xstart, open Help.  Then search for the topic "Using Command Field Macros".  G If you want a command procedure that makes it easier for people using aoJ PC-based X server or a Unix system running an X server to open VMS-based X clients, let me know.r --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comoA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:05:38 GMTi/ From: "Johan Schoofs" <jschoofs@compuserve.com> 0 Subject: Excursion PCs as X-Terminals on OpenVMS= Message-ID: <mTCu8.5158$Du7.1911080186@hestia.telenet-ops.be>d   Hi all,b  K Can anyone explain how to get the standard CDE based login screen displayedeK on a PC running Excursion (or any other X-Windows server software)? This isdI really a nobrainer for Tru64 hosts: just enable XDCMP (sic?) in ExcursionwJ and you get a nice list of the Tru64 systems running X. You select one outJ of the list and you get the CDE login screen displayed on the PC. We wouldL really like to see our OpenVMS systems doing something similar. I've checked> the Excursion doc but it is of no help concerning our problem.  $ Thanks for any help and/or pointers!   Johano   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:28:42 -0400 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ) Subject: Re: Fearless VMS Prognosticationm, Message-ID: <a9ere3$flfv$2@lead.zk3.dec.com>   Bill Todd wrote in message ... >u >Two glaring examples ares >sG >1.  The numbers that refuted Compaq's lie that Alphas cost too much tooL >develop:  Winkler's and Marcello's cost figures, the associated informationE >in the 1999 and 2000 annual reports, VMS's profit figures, VMS's ando Tru64'sgH >revenue figures.  It's not as if you provided any numbers yourself thatG >called those numbers into question:  you just chose to dismiss them as- >'nay-saying' and 'whining'. >p  K Not to pick a nit.  Having the VMS profit and revenue numbers, and the UNIXiC revenue numbers tells you almost nothing about the profitability ofo AlphaServers, or Tru64 UNIX.  G Let me know when you have the profit figures for the AlphaServer group,rE which includes Tru64, OpenVMS, and Linux along with the associated HWiK platforms and chip development costs, excluding services profit - which cantI be provided seperately.  I know that *I* have never officially seen them.v  D >2.  The numbers that refuted Compaq's lie that Alphas couldn't have retainedI >a major performance lead over Itanic over time:  Compaq's 1999 Alpha vs. K >Itanic comparison paper, the date and performance projections of the AlphapJ >development team, the date and performance projections Intel (and Compaq)K >made for Itanic, Paul DeMone's projections.  You did provide one number in ; >return in that statement I happened to find the other day:  >   J The quote "lie" unquote you want to prove is that over the next 5-10 yearsL that the costs of developing a unique chip, and unique hardware platforms toL leverage the chips performance would have led to a significant market share,E and high profitabilty.  You have past performance to show that it had I captured only a small market share, and no insight into the profitability 
 prospects.  H Versus the cost/benefit to consolidate development on a single 3rd partyK (widely available) architecture, use common system platforms across all O/S E domains.  The chip maker has a proven ability to push the process and J increase clock frequency, and is "likely" to catch our unique architectureJ at some future time in the decade - simply because they will sell millionsK of them, which will give them a lower the cost per chip (with no NRE on our K part) and they control some of the fastest chip processes, and can spin newhD chips generations in less than 1 year cycles once they get the basicH architecture down (just look at how they churn pentium generations out).   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:07:09 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk) Subject: Re: Fearless VMS Prognostication.+ Message-ID: <a9etrd$for$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>u  d In article <a9ere3$flfv$2@lead.zk3.dec.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >Bill Todd wrote in message ...  >>K >The quote "lie" unquote you want to prove is that over the next 5-10 yearsuM >that the costs of developing a unique chip, and unique hardware platforms to M >leverage the chips performance would have led to a significant market share,aF >and high profitabilty.  You have past performance to show that it hadJ >captured only a small market share, and no insight into the profitability >prospects.t > I >Versus the cost/benefit to consolidate development on a single 3rd party L >(widely available) architecture, use common system platforms across all O/SF >domains.  The chip maker has a proven ability to push the process andK >increase clock frequency, and is "likely" to catch our unique architecturenK >at some future time in the decade - simply because they will sell millionsoL >of them, which will give them a lower the cost per chip (with no NRE on ourL >part) and they control some of the fastest chip processes, and can spin newE >chips generations in less than 1 year cycles once they get the basicnI >architecture down (just look at how they churn pentium generations out).b >d  O Unfortunately although your last paragraph might describe the IA32 architecturey5 it definitely doesn't describe the IA64 architecture.mI There is no evidence that Intel plans to make the IA64 a low cost chip orTJ that it's market share in 64bit computing will be any greater than Alphas.E Jumping from a small but perfectly serviceable boat onto the Titanic 6B (and sinking the boat you came in) just as it becomes apparent the1 Titanic's heading for an iceberg seems foolhardy.w    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:54:34 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n. Subject: FLIGHT (developping a world) question, Message-ID: <3CBA791F.7BB63293@videotron.ca>  N Ok, I wrote a small utility to convert DXF files to FLIGHT world source code. L Took me a while to figure out that the FLIGHT "x" is really north-south, "y"" is elevation, and "z" = east-west.  L Anyways, I stumbled into something I am not sure how others have resolved in	 the past:h  N My knowledge of the position of the objects is based on latitude/longitude. ToL properly orient a runway relative to other objects, I must orient it to trueL north. This means that on the plane, the compass would read "43" instead of" "58" when lining up to runway 06.  K If I orient the runway to the magnetic heading, the compass on the plane ishJ fine, except if I try to take off from that runway, I head straight into aI mountain (easy to avoid) which is really not right for the local airport.a  L How have others who have dabbed in developping worlds handled the problem of! magnetic/true north orientation ?   M I wish there were some setting in a world to tell the plane's compass to have L a specofc offset from true north so that the world below could exist in trueH north orientation and the pilot be happy with his legacy magnetic north.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:53:02 -0400f- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>f2 Subject: Re: FLIGHT (developping a world) question3 Message-ID: <DPBu8.16948$je5.167927@nnrp1.uunet.ca>u  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CBA791F.7BB63293@videotron.ca... >...J > If I orient the runway to the magnetic heading, the compass on the plane isL > fine, except if I try to take off from that runway, I head straight into aK > mountain (easy to avoid) which is really not right for the local airport.  >...  I Extremely off topic, but runway headings are Magenetic, not True. Several9K years ago one of the three runways (or two of the six, depending on how youjE want to look at it ;)) was renamed because of the change in Magenetic J Variation. Since that runway is seldom used I usually end up calling it by& the old name when I do have to use it.  K You may have some other problem with your conversion if the runway does notoK line up properly using Magnetic headings. BTW: Does FLIGHT simulate compass"0 deviation too? Will that be part of the problem?   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:40:54 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c2 Subject: Re: FLIGHT (developping a world) question, Message-ID: <3CBB0295.10905A93@videotron.ca>   Peter Weaver wrote: M > You may have some other problem with your conversion if the runway does notoM > line up properly using Magnetic headings. BTW: Does FLIGHT simulate compassu2 > deviation too? Will that be part of the problem?  D Nop, as far as I know, Flight doesn't deal with magnetic deviation.   N When you define a mass, you can define where the north pole is. But everythingL moves with it so you end up with the same problem. (this feature was to haveK the earth's pole properly aligned when comparing other planets, not to deali with the magnetic north pole).   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 14:31:01 GMT From: clark@sander.stsci.edu ()e& Subject: Re: GNU cc vs VMS CC listings) Message-ID: <a9eo75$g6s$1@tomm.stsci.edu>:  ? I guess my original post was based on problems I am having witho@ determining where #IFDEF macros are being evaluated. I am having= problems determining what the <include files> are doing. More'? specifically I am getting a variable definition being redefinedv? several times. On VMS the /list/show=include marks the lines ini> the <include files> that are being skipped over and those thatA are being used. I don't see how something that basic can be seen a to be a wave of the past.d  A Just how does a modern programmer determine what the preprocessort$ is doing with the #IFDEF statements?     Kerry clark  Clark@stsci.edur   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:41:11 -0700 - From: "Douglas B Rupp" <rupp@nospam_gnat.com>o& Subject: Re: GNU cc vs VMS CC listings- Message-ID: <3cbaf7f7.0@topcat.tabbygnat.com>o  K You don't say what version of gcc you're using or whether its VAX or Alpha.nF What you're looking for is probably documented in the "invoke" manual.  F For example in gcc 3.1/invoke.texi see below. These are Unix switches,	 dependingcI on what version of gcc you're using there may or may not be VMS qualifier$F equivalents.  You can usually use the Unix forms, if you quote them to preserve	 the case.l  	 @item -dMe @opindex dMrD Tell the preprocessor to output only a list of the macro definitionsJ that are in effect at the end of preprocessing.  Used with the @option{-E} option.t  	 @item -dD  @opindex dDfH Tell the preprocessing to pass all macro definitions into the output, in0 their proper sequence in the rest of the output.  	 @item -dN  @opindex dN K Like @option{-dD} except that the macro arguments and contents are omitted.-9 Only @samp{#define @var{name}} is included in the output.m  	 @item -dI. @opindex dI > Output @samp{#include} directives in addition to the result of preprocessing.  A > I guess my original post was based on problems I am having withD6 > determining where #IFDEF macros are being evaluated.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 01:44:44 -0400w From: karen3980@mailbox.com  Subject: hey (its Karen): Message-ID: <200204150544.g3F5ii112081@mdot-web-srv1.mdot>   <html>Hey! I have finally put up my pics today :o).. I look good enough to eat! :o) <A HREF="http://www.cam-hosting.com/home/karen/">click here and take a look!</a>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br= ><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>:  ? Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by >  (karen3980@mailbox.com) on Monday, April 15, 2002 at 01:44:44K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------a   x: i  K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------@   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:21:45 -0600 (MDT)F From: karen8234@mailbox.com () Subject: hey (its Karen)1 Message-ID: <200204150621.AAA27432@rncentral.com>d   <html>Hey! I have finally put up my pics today :o).. I look good enough to eat! :o) <A HREF="http://www.cam-hosting.com/home/karen/">click here and take a look!</a>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br= ><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>o  ? Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted byh>  (karen8234@mailbox.com) on Monday, April 15, 2002 at 00:21:45K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------w   x: i  K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:12:10 +0100tT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>6 Subject: Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!& Message-ID: <3CBB09EA.5040802@sun.com>   jlsue wrote:  G > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:24:28 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 5 > <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote:o >  > : >>I have repeated advised you to stop throwing stones when< >>you live in a glass house you have repeatedly ignored this5 >>good advice to the detriment of the remains of your-: >>reputation. My advice is to restrict yourself to posting9 >>about USB and X windows device drivers anything else isc< >>only an embarassment to you, your collegues and the people* >>you misguidely think you are supporting. >> > F > What a laugh.  Andy-boy giving advice.  Like anyone in here respects? > this doofus and his elevated-opinion-of-himself-ramblings (asn$ > perfectly evidenced in this post). > 	 > Sheesh.u > G > What's wrong Andrew, can't find facts to post so you just throw trashn	 > around?h >      Ok I will try this once more.a  5 I have repeatedly given examples of how the GS seriest: are not competitive based on Compaqs own public, published  benchmark results for the boxes.  3 Come up with your own examples of public, publishede/ benchmark results that counter this or shut up.,  0 Or are you suggesting that the benchmark results, you have published which are the basis of my argument are not factual ????-   Regardsa Andrew Harrison8   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:03:19 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e6 Subject: Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!, Message-ID: <3CBB15E6.3F7B6799@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:7 > I have repeatedly given examples of how the GS series < > are not competitive based on Compaqs own public, published" > benchmark results for the boxes.    G Andrew, did Sun ever fix the problem with its memory going bezerk underoM certain circumstances (aka: all those ebay problems for instance) ? If so, is-9 it still fair to say that Sun has very bad memory today ?   L In the same vein, has Digital fixed some of the initial performance problemsI in the wildfires ? If so, is it still fair to say that they don't performoG properly today ? And when you consider the upcoming EV7 based wildfirese4 (marvel), will the new wildfires really perform ????  L It is very easy to use older statistics to show a competitor is weak. But itH will come back to hurt you because when the customer checks and gets theK updated statistics from the other vendor, he will see through to tactic andm' that gives you negative brownie points.   K You can hammer Digital/Compaq/HP all you want about VMS's costs and lack of F marketing and lack of visible future. That is plenty to steer clear ofN Digital/Compaq/HP/whatever. But on a performance basis, are you ready to stateL that a bunch of separate Sun boxes, connected by wathever, will outperform a) wildfire with same number of processors ?:   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:13:56 +0100rT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>6 Subject: Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!& Message-ID: <3CBB0A54.4000502@sun.com>   jlsue wrote:  . > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:21:24 -0400, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:f >  >  >>jlsue wrote: >>G >>>What a laugh.  Andy-boy giving advice.  Like anyone in here respectsr@ >>>this doofus and his elevated-opinion-of-himself-ramblings (as% >>>perfectly evidenced in this post).  >>>yN >>Like anyone here respects those who feel compelled to insult Andrew anythingL >>they can. We are smart enough to filter out the fluff from Andrew and takeJ >>some of the tidbits that sometimes make sense. There is no real need forE >>Digital employees to make a point of insulting Andrew all the time.o >> >> > C > Hey, if he's going to stick his head out, it's gonna get whacked.2F > If he wants to have discussions that retain respect and dignity then% > he'll have to start doing the same.  >     ; If you seriously think that resorting to ad-hominem attacksr8 when you have lost the argument is "wacking" me then you7 have been doing a bit to much overtime and need to restr in a dark quiet room for a bit.e   RegardsI Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:53:27 +0100oT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX& Message-ID: <3CBAF777.9080902@sun.com>   Christopher C. Stacy wrote:o  ? >>>>>>On 12 Apr 2002 15:16:48 -0700, Greg Finn ("Greg") writes:o >>>>>>L >  Greg> Since many language specific workstation companies failed, I find aR >  Greg> management-specific failure argument unconvincing.  Especially when thereM >  Greg> were at least three companies selling lisp machines that all failed.t > H > I'll give you a hint: what market was targeted (to the extent that anyH > of those companies had a marketing stragegy at all), and what happenedM > to that market?  I'm most familiar with Symbolics, so here's another hint: eC > Can you count how many executive officers Symbolics went through?tF > What was that all about and how did it affect the company's success?L > Another hint: can you say something about the company's financial problemsH > and eventual bankruptcy in relation to its investments in real-estate?H > Finally, regarding the Xerox Lisp Machines (which I would not say wereF > as general purpose as the Symbolics machines, since for example theyJ > could not run all the different languages at once): please tell us aboutM > how Xerox has been so successful in marketing its conventional workstationskC > and other computer products, and about how the relevent technicals< > innovations were the cause of that whopping success story. >     G The market was important, in 1985 AI was the watch word, but the bubble F had burst by 1987. In 1988 an analyst commented that with an installed@ base of 7000 LISP machines worldwide the installed base probably2 exceeded the number of LISP programmers worldwide.  > Symbolics boxes were also expensive ~150,000 Genera was a very: productive environment but you could buy a general purpose= workstation for 20,000 or less with a LISP environment on it.h  @ Symbolics tried to get into software and add on HW for Sun's and; MAC's but went into receivership (or some US equivalent) inn/ 1993. You can still get the Genera environment.    Regards, Andrew Harrison7   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:33:27 +0100 T From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX& Message-ID: <3CBB00D7.9060003@sun.com>   Christopher C. Stacy wrote:s  ^ >>>>>>On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:43:27 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ("Andrew") writes: >>>>>>F >  Andrew> Things changed when the Sun 480/410 were released which wasE >  Andrew> also the same timeframe for the first HP-PA and MIPS basedaF >  Andrew> systems, they were apparently faster but no one as far as I, >  Andrew> know did any formal benchmarking. > B > Performance analysis of Lisp systems is very complicated, mostlyD > because there are lots of things that can be measured (on purpose H > and accidently).  Benchmarking Lisp systems is the subject of a numberE > of graduate thesis, including the well-known PhD thesis by Gabriel.l > B > While looking around for some numbers for you, I ran across some> > benchmarks done in 1991 by David Gadbois and Akira Kurihara.> > The program is for ISQRT on very large numbers (thousands ofB > digits of precision).  Several different algorithms were tested,@ > including the built-in ISQRT operator and two different faster@ > versions (mostly testing Lisp function calling; recursion, in A > one of the algorithsm) and Lisp's infinite precision arithmetic + > (especially the FLOOR and ASH functions).h > H > So I have some Lisp benchmarks (for square roots of numbers with 1000 F > to 10,000 digits) in front of me showing the Symbolics machine being0 > at least twice as fast as the SPARCStation 1+. >     > But the benchmark results you have compare the XL1200 the last; Symbolics HW LISP workstation (excluding the XL1201) with ai* very early pizza boxed sized SPARCstation.     Regards  Andrew Harrisonf   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:41:37 +0100rT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX& Message-ID: <3CBB02C1.8020601@sun.com>   Christopher C. Stacy wrote:3  ^ >>>>>>On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:46:09 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ("Andrew") writes: >>>>>> > M >  Andrew> So the results show that the in the 5 years between 85 and 90 what"J >  Andrew> ever performance advantage the Symbolics boxes had over generalJ >  Andrew> purpose systems had vanished because of the ram up in the speedK >  Andrew> of the general purpose machines and probably improvements in the % >  Andrew> list environments on them.t > E > According to the dates on those messages you're citing, a SymbolicsrH > machine from 1985 was first compared to conventional machines in 1985,F > and won, and subsequently the same old 1985 machine was compared to G > modern conventional machines of 1990, but Symbolics had already moveda; > on to a different architecture several years before that.rB > (Not sure that those benchmarks were accurately reproduced here,? > though - they were clipped from multiple places and times...)t >     < Well they had and they hadn't they had the 3600 series which9 were implimented using gate arrays and then there was thec  XL which used the Ivory chipset.  ; The benchmark shown compared the 3600 series with a DN10000-= I am not sure that the XL1200 was available in 1990 I thought  it cam out in 91.r  < The XL1200 was ~6x faster than the first 3600 machines which4 also ranged in speed depending on model and options.  9 One user reports that OpenGenera (UNIX version of Genera)o3 runs 18 x faster than Genera did on a XL1200 if your4 have it running on a relatively modest 533 Mhz 21164
 Alpha box.   Regards  Andrew Harrison         = > I'm not disagreeing that, eventually, conventional machinesn> > outperformed the Symbolics machines in at least some, if not? > all areas.  (By the way, there were five completely differentn: > architectures, implemented in a variety of processes for; > dozens of different machines over the years, by the way.)t > C > But nobody seems to have provided data here which shows that, andoF > that's only supposed to be supporting the three-claim argument that:D > the Lisp Machine was too slow doing things other than Lisp, it was< > outperformed as soon as the first SPARC machine came out, 9 > and that this lack of speed is what killed the company." > None of which is true. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:02:45 +0100eT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX& Message-ID: <3CBB07B5.6090307@sun.com>   Peter da Silva wrote:0  * > In article <ud6x5a7dw.fsf@theworld.com>,3 > Christopher C. Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote:d > H >>So I have some Lisp benchmarks (for square roots of numbers with 1000 F >>to 10,000 digits) in front of me showing the Symbolics machine being0 >>at least twice as fast as the SPARCStation 1+. >> > > > But how did it stand up against real high performance RISCs? >     ! Which ones were you refering to ?o  < For the benchmarks he is quoting the DECStation 5000 is ~50%0 faster than the SPARCstation 1+ running the same& benchmark with the same LISP compiler.  9 However the SPARCstation 2 was also available at the timea? but not benchmarked in this test, given the hike in clock speedd4 of 60% between the SS1+ and the SS2 I guess that any6 actual performance differences between the DS-5000 and* the SPARCstation 2 would be pretty slight.  4 The SPARCstation 2 was considerably smaller and cost2 less than the DECstation making it a better choice which as we know people made.e    L > The Sparc has always been the trailing-edge RISC processor (at least until< > Itanic came along :->). Where was MIPS on your benchmarks? >      The DEC 5000 was MIPS based.     Regardse   Andrew Harrison     l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:43:19 +0100iT From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>  Subject: Re: IA64 is not the VAX& Message-ID: <3CBB0327.3040406@sun.com>   Eric Smith wrote:r  X > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> writes: > G >>I am not sure I entirely agree with you. The early symbolics machinesu= >>were faster than the Sun, HP or Apollo workstations runningS; >>Lisp, but this performance advantage was very short lived = >>as general purpose CPU's increased in speed and by the time 9 >>the first SPARC, HP-PA and MIPS based workstations camet9 >>out they were faster Lisp platforms than the Symbolics.. >> > E > I don't know why you say that you don't agree with me, since that'suE > *exactly* my point.  Christopher Stacey seems to be the only person   > that wants to argue otherwise. >     * Sorry missquote I do agree with your point   Regardsr Andrew Harrisonc   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:47:54 -0400 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>i8 Subject: IONA Application Server / OpenVMS Press ReleaseT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D8E73@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E49D.49C86C7Ar Content-Type: text/plain;e 	charset="us-ascii"p+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablet    H Hey, just in case this got missed by the readers of this list (apologies if it did get posted before)   :-)   / http://www.iona.com/pressroom/2002/20020327.htm B IONA Orbix E2A Application Server Platform Enables Development and@ Deployment of Web Services Applications in the OpenVMS Operating Environmentr  B JavaOnesm Conference 2002 - San Francisco, CA. - March 27, 2002 --B IONA(r), the leading e-Business Platform provider for Web ServicesC Integration (NASDAQ: IONA), today announced the availability of the=G Orbix E2A(tm) Application Server Platform on Compaq's OpenVMS operating<D system. IONA's Orbix E2A Application Server Platform offers Compaq'sC OpenVMS customers a J2EE(tm)-compliant and Web services-architected<G platform for application and e- Business infrastructure development.=20r  G "We are excited that IONA's J2EE-compliant Orbix E2A Application ServerrB Platform with Web services support is now available to our OpenVMSC customers. This is important technology for customers looking for arH standards-based, state-of-the art eBusiness Platform," said Mark Gorham,H vice president of Compaq's OpenVMS Group. "Compaq OpenVMS customers haveF come to depend upon this type of collaboration between Compaq and IONAF to provide new solutions optimized to build and deploy standards-based< development environments and e- Business infrastructure."=20  G "We have a long history of success delivering unmatched standards-based-D development and infrastructure solutions to customers of the world'sD leading high-tech manufacturers," said Paul Moxon, vice president ofE product management, Orbix E2A Application Server Platform, IONA. "Our<C understanding of the challenges and strategies of developers and ITrH staff is driving IONA to break new ground with our J2EE and Web services4 offerings for our strategic technology partners."=20  F OpenVMS is a general-purpose, multi-user operating system that runs inB both production and development environments. Users of the OpenVMSE operating system will now have access to J2EE(tm) compliant developer D and infrastructure tools to create world-class distributed computingH environments. IONA offers Orbix E2A Application Server Platform run time# functionality to OpenVMS customers.-   Regards-  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant- Compaq Canada Corp.- Professional Services- Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com    ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E49D.49C86C7Ao Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="us-ascii"h+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableA  1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">0 <HTML> <HEAD>9 <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =w charset=3Dus-ascii">@ <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 6.0.5770.9">> <TITLE>IONA Application Server / OpenVMS Press Release</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>' <!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->v <BR>  G <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hey, just in case this got missed by =iG the readers of this list (apologies if it did get posted before)</FONT>  </P>  + <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">:-)</FONT>e </P>  I <P><A HREF=3D"http://www.iona.com/pressroom/2002/20020327.htm"><U><FONT =h COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =J FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.iona.com/pressroom/2002/20020327.htm</FONT></U>= </A>  E <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">IONA Orbix E2A Application Server =hJ Platform Enables Development and Deployment of Web Services Applications =/ in the OpenVMS Operating Environment</FONT></P>   B <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">JavaOnesm Conference 2002 - San =F Francisco, CA. - March 27, 2002 -- IONA&reg;, the leading e-Business =F Platform provider for Web Services Integration (NASDAQ: IONA), today =G announced the availability of the Orbix E2A&#8482; Application Server =bA Platform on Compaq's OpenVMS operating system. IONA's Orbix E2A =uA Application Server Platform offers Compaq's OpenVMS customers a =-A J2EE&#8482;-compliant and Web services-architected platform for =rC application and e- Business infrastructure development. </FONT></P>t  C <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;We are excited that IONA's =nH J2EE-compliant Orbix E2A Application Server Platform with Web services =F support is now available to our OpenVMS customers. This is important =J technology for customers looking for a standards-based, state-of-the art =H eBusiness Platform,&quot; said Mark Gorham, vice president of Compaq's =H OpenVMS Group. &quot;Compaq OpenVMS customers have come to depend upon =C this type of collaboration between Compaq and IONA to provide new =eE solutions optimized to build and deploy standards-based development =w> environments and e- Business infrastructure.&quot; </FONT></P>  J <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;We have a long history of success =E delivering unmatched standards-based development and infrastructure = 9 solutions to customers of the world's leading high-tech =tA manufacturers,&quot; said Paul Moxon, vice president of product =eD management, Orbix E2A Application Server Platform, IONA. &quot;Our =E understanding of the challenges and strategies of developers and IT =mJ staff is driving IONA to break new ground with our J2EE and Web services =B offerings for our strategic technology partners.&quot; </FONT></P>  @ <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">OpenVMS is a general-purpose, =J multi-user operating system that runs in both production and development =J environments. Users of the OpenVMS operating system will now have access =G to J2EE&#8482; compliant developer and infrastructure tools to create = G world-class distributed computing environments. IONA offers Orbix E2A =R? Application Server Platform run time functionality to OpenVMS =5 customers.</FONT></P>l  / <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards</FONT>  </P>  0 <P><B><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Kerry Main</FONT></B>  : <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Senior Consultant</FONT>  < <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Compaq Canada Corp.</FONT>  > <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Professional Services</FONT>  < <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Voice: 613-592-4660</FONT>  G <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Fax&nbsp; :&nbsp; 819-772-7036</FONT>u  E <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com</FONT>k </P>   </BODY>  </HTML>e) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1E49D.49C86C7A--    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 11:26:11 +0200& From: "Ketil Malde" <ketil+@ii.uib.no> Subject: Re: Itanium troublesi. Message-ID: <egk7r9pb2k.fsf@sefirot.ii.uib.no>  7 "Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com> writes:o  N > I have just installed FreeBSD 4.5 and reading the manual pages and web pagesI > it becomes quite clear that these people simply do not get it. They areoK > unable to think product and think like a user would (user = non fanatical-N > devotee). I wonder if I should use the word inept or incompetent to describe > the effort involved.   How about "disinterested"?  E I mean, why do you expect people to think "product" -- that is, solveFF problems for end users who are unwilling to solve them for themselves,( when there's no motivation for doing so?  E (I'm really amazed at the level of support available through interneteB channels from people who really have very little to gain from it.)   -kzm -- EH If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:08:20 +0200g5 From: "Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com>a Subject: Re: Itanium troublesd+ Message-ID: <a9e8qt$n1i5@news.kvaerner.com>a   Peter da Silva  wrote  > Tarjei T. Jensen wrote:aK > > These people are programmers. They are not system administrators. Theret is aI > > world of a difference between those two ways of looking at the world.o The K > > programmers seems have no idea whatsoever about how complex todays usernK > > environments are and hence no understanding of what is required to makeLF > > things work. And they do not worry about future incompatibilities. >lF > I'm sorry, but you're making a number of large and false assumptions there.   I don't agree at all.s  H > I use open systems and open source software *because* they ensure long termK > compatibility. My experience with complex proprietary integrated software A > systems is that they have frequent "flag days" that require the  redistributionL > of new clients to support server upgrades, new applications to support newL > file formats, and an increasing and unnecessary support load. On the otherI > hand, I can run an open systems mail server on an operating system frommK > 1984 with a client written in 1994, and expect them to just work in 2004.e  B And this process also seem to ensure that there is few fundamentalJ improvements. The shells have not changed much since I started using Unix.F About the only improvement is the general availability of command line editing.  K And worse, apart from cloning the interface of MS applications, there seems K to be few attempts at stealing fatures from other environments. As a former19 VMSer, I know that there are plenty of features to steal.s  J > On the other hand, I can't give someone using Word 97 a document created in2 > Word 2000 and expect them to be able to open it.  L That applies to most applications which evolve. On old version of LaTeX willL have problems with a input file created for a new version. Especially if youC happen to live in a place where English is not the native language.e   > We just did a rollout ofI > iPaqs running Pocket PC 2002, and we're having to upgrade all the userse whoaF > were using NT4 to Windows 2000 so they can reliably connect to them.  J Our excuse for going to win2k is that microsoft is terminating support for NT4 in the near future.a  L > > More than 10 years after microsoft launched windows with printer driversG > > these people still think support for printing means that the systemy supportl > > the lpr/lpd protocol.d >rG > I have been on both sides of *this* argument. I can't get open sourcev peopleK > to understand that a modern user interface requires a lot of work that isu just > not fun to do.  F Not only the user interface, but almost *everything* requires a lot ofF really boring work to make the system industrial grade. And the reallyK boring work include documentation and testing and somebody actualy decidingn how things should work.i  A >On the other hand, I can't get Microsoft advocates to understandeG > that building on top of publicly defined protocols and interfaces andi havingG > people who do care about this kind of interoperability in the loop isa *also* > valuable..  J Not only valuable, but preferable. There have been some improvements. e.g.G the move toward XML for data files. However I suspect that these are soa- complex anyway, that it does not matter much.w  J > As a result we have Windows on the desktop, and UNIX in the server room. ThisJ > way users don't need to use command lines, and administrators don't have toK > find themselves reinstalling production systems from scratch because some.+ > complex server coughed up blood and died.>  K Where I work, Unix is simply not good enough to handle general file serving)H (We use Samba on Unix for special tasks). The security model is just tooL simple and we have these arbitrary group limits. You can't have groups which are members of goups, etc.  K All in all we are quite happy with Netware 6 for file and print and NDS fordK user management, but the managment is probably still desperate to get win2kd in on the server side.  
 greetings,   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:29:49 +0200a5 From: "Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com>i Subject: Re: Itanium troublesb+ Message-ID: <a9ea36$n1i6@news.kvaerner.com>r   "Ketil MaldeG > I mean, why do you expect people to think "product" -- that is, solve H > problems for end users who are unwilling to solve them for themselves,* > when there's no motivation for doing so?  I If I think product, I solve the problem before it occurs. That saves me a L lot of time since I don't have to explain my mistakes over and over again toK people. And I save a lot of time for those people as well since they do not H have to spend a lot of time trying to solve a problem which should never
 have been.  G Reading books on usability should be a requirement for all programmers.w    
 greetings,   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 13:05:06 +0200- From: Andreas Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de>e Subject: Re: Itanium troubles * Message-ID: <m3ofglrzml.fsf@elgin.eder.de>  7 "Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com> writes:1  B > And worse, apart from cloning the interface of MS applications, E which is itself a clone of the Mac interface, which is a clone of theo Xerox Star.   
 > there seems M > to be few attempts at stealing fatures from other environments. As a formerh; > VMSer, I know that there are plenty of features to steal.s  B That is unfortunately true, but I guess that is the result of mostE people knowing only Windows und Unix. They have never heard about VMS / or Multics or - heaven forbid - a Lisp Machine.t  N > That applies to most applications which evolve. On old version of LaTeX willN > have problems with a input file created for a new version. Especially if youE > happen to live in a place where English is not the native language.-  D But you can still feed your old LaTeX files to a new one and it will7 output it fine. The same doesn't apply to e.g. Winword.m   Andreasr -- @+ Wherever I lay my .emacs, theres my $HOME.e   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 11:09:09 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Itanium troublesy- Message-ID: <a9eccl$634@web.eng.baileynm.com>s  * In article <a9bric$m9h$6@news1.xs4all.nl>,, Casper H.S. Dik  <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> wrote:I > Had I only used LaTeX from the start, my documents would have continuediD > to be printable and editable not just by savingt the postscript or > whatever printable output.  I You may find that HTML is a practical intermediate format. Or rather, the0 least painful one. :->  * > LaTeX is now 17 years old judging by theI > copyright in the LaTeX book and still produces documents that look muchlG > nicer than what MS word produces.  (The latter is mainly because most G > people don't understand layout and make a mess of it; the defaults inoF > LaTeX are more sensible than most people come up with by themselves)  K Also because Word has no concept of nesting, so you either have to do a lotaK more preplanning (use named paragraph types for EVERYTHING) or simply don't : even try and use any global styles other than the default.  I I have a document I was given to mark up, and it was obviously created bykI merging two different documents. You can tell which is which, because the K font switches between Times and some san-serif font more or less at random.0   -- m+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.oE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."eL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:34:01 -0400y2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Itanium troublespK Message-ID: <rdeininger-1504020734010001@1cust197.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>h  < In article <878z7pn704.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net>, Chris Morgan <cm@mihalis.net> wrote:P  5 >rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:w > ? >> In article <87pu13n5rf.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net>, Chris Morganw >> <cm@mihalis.net> wrote: >>   >> mH >> >Even if part of this disaster-tolerant cluster had been offsite, the? >> >chances are high the connectivity would have been lost too.i >> tL >> If the site is lost, it doesn't matter if the connectivity to the site isE >> lost as well.  The remaining site(s) in the cluster can continue. K >yA >No, sorry, you misunderstand my point. As I posted in a separateVE >posting, some "offsite data centers" lost (most) connectivity to the@D >world in general due to the WTC and Verizon damage as well as theirC >master sites. Fairly obviously some types of computer service neede* >connectivity to be considered in service.  G Good point.  "Redundant" data paths are not redundant if they are closeyE together.  That's well known, but not easy (or cheap) to accomplish. -F Especially in lower Manhattan, there proved to be choke points where a: large fraction of the data cables were too close together.  J However Brooklyn and Jersey City are popular backup sites, and they appearJ to have independent (from Manhattan) communications paths, at least if you look hard enough.    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:29:24 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m Subject: Re: Itanium troublesn3 Message-ID: <3lPJtKUualD1@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  V In article <a97ppc$973@web.eng.baileynm.com>, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > O > Well it seems to me that it's not the calendering that Outlook/Exchange giveseK > you, nor even the calendering/email integration, since you can create webiO > or ODBC based calendering systems that included as tight an email integrationuG > as you like. What it is, is the idea of having these two applicationsaG > wrapped up in the same user interface. That can't be such a big deal,p, > otherwise they'd all be using Lotus Notes   F    I don't see your point.  Lotus Notes has for a long time wrapped up    both calendar and email.e   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 14:34:23 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) Subject: Re: Itanium troublese+ Message-ID: <a9eodf$odo$1@news.btv.ibm.com>e  + In article <a98rmp$n1i3@news.kvaerner.com>,u4 Tarjei T. Jensen <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com> wrote: >c" >These people are programmers. ...> >    ... And they do not worry about future incompatibilities.  L Oh really?  Seems to me many programmers have the future quite definitely inL mind, only to be shot down by management because "we don't need that now" orJ "it's not a current line item".  Witness Y2K, which programmers saw comingM in the 70s and early 80s, but management didn't feel urgent enough until they / realised it was going to happen on their watch.S  K As for your comment about Windows printer drivers vs the Unix lpr approach:nM it seems equally misguided.  I consider it a serious *disadvantage* that eachON application needs its own print command.  But that' not so much Windows as theM fact that applications tend to store documents in an internal (and frequentlypN fragile, I should add) format.  It would be much better to have a few standardN external formats (perhaps plain text, RTF, and PS) that a single print commandJ could understand.  I agree with the main point, that you should be able toN print what you see on the screen.  I.o.w., the "Print Screen" key should work!L That too should be provided independently of the application -- and might beM augmented by a "print view" function, also below the application itself, in a J window manager perhaps.  Again, in principle unrelated to Unix vs Windows.   Michel.C   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:13:00 GMTa1 From: Michael Lee Finney <michael.finney@acm.org>d Subject: Re: Itanium troublesi; Message-ID: <MPG.1724b8081f1643a4989682@news.lynchburg.net>A  = In article <3CB6EFF5.585E228F@cisco.com>, jahlstro@cisco.com o says...o > Alexis Cousein wrote:F >  > > David Froble wrote:E > >=Q > > > So, you're implying that the majority of today's computer users are stupid?  > >>I > > The majority of *humans* are relatively speaking idiots outside theirmS > > field of competence - I don't see why computers would somehow be the lone fielde3 > > where God has blessed us all with intelligence.A > >" > >" > D > Isn't this a tautology or an extensive definition of "competence"? > I > > The majority of *humans* are relatively speaking idiots outside theirn > >   field of competencen > >e > ' > Perhaps changing "field" to "fields"?p >   + No, just delete the last qualifying phrase.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:27:59 +0200a5 From: "Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com>e Subject: Re: Itanium troubles + Message-ID: <a9eri8$qjg4@news.kvaerner.com>c   "hack" wroteC > As for your comment about Windows printer drivers vs the Unix lpre	 approach:'J > it seems equally misguided.  I consider it a serious *disadvantage* that eachL > application needs its own print command.  But that' not so much Windows as therD > fact that applications tend to store documents in an internal (and
 frequentlyG > fragile, I should add) format.  It would be much better to have a fewt standardH > external formats (perhaps plain text, RTF, and PS) that a single print commandaL > could understand.  I agree with the main point, that you should be able toJ > print what you see on the screen.  I.o.w., the "Print Screen" key should work!/K > That too should be provided independently of the application -- and mights beJ > augmented by a "print view" function, also below the application itself, in aL > window manager perhaps.  Again, in principle unrelated to Unix vs Windows.  J This is confusing. Windows, OS/2 and the Macintosh have for all intents an) purposes what you describe. Unix has not.n  
 greetings,   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:33:49 -0400k- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f Subject: Re: Itanium troubleso, Message-ID: <3CBB00EC.9FE627F2@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    I don't see your point.  Lotus Notes has for a long time wrapped up >    both calendar and email.t  N And ALL-IN-1 has had calendaring since well before Microsoft bought what would/ become MS-MAIL and Lotus was just a speadsheet.r  8 Heck,. even Data General's "CEO" system had calendaring.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:42:13 GMTf  From: chrisv <chrisv@chrisv.com> Subject: Re: Itanium troublesZ8 Message-ID: <lm0mbu050nhupr9a8qtp1c59eopt4oe1t9@4ax.com>  ' peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:>  K >It seems that the people who wrote the ActiveSync software didn't read theCG >specifications Microsoft wrote that described how to use link-local IPlG >addresses to avoid conflicts with local address space. And they didn't:O >happen to notice that Microsoft had provided a standard Mail API in Windows...7K >so that while a Palm can interoperate with *ANY* mail client software thatcH >follows Microsoft's specs (including the evil Netscape), Pocket PC only >works with Outlook.    Jeezes.  That's really pathetic.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 17:27:39 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) Subject: Re: Itanium troublesu+ Message-ID: <a9f2ib$mak$1@news.btv.ibm.com>v  + In article <a9eri8$qjg4@news.kvaerner.com>, 4 Tarjei T. Jensen <tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com> wrote: > 
 >"hack" wroteeE >>> ...  I.o.w., the "Print Screen" key should work!  That too shouldhI >> be provided independently of the application -- and might be augmented F >> by a "print view" function, also below the application itself, in aM >> window manager perhaps.  Again, in principle unrelated to Unix vs Windows.e >eK >This is confusing. Windows, OS/2 and the Macintosh have for all intents ani* >purposes what you describe. Unix has not.  L Really?  I'd love to find out.  Nothing happens when I hit "Print Screen" onJ my NT 4 system.  I agree that I haven't found this function in AIX either.  M In the mid-80s, when I was working on our experimental OS on the 37T (a S/370hL with a bit-mapped display, mouse etc.) I did provide the function to captureJ a snapshot of the screen to an image file, which could then be printed (or redisplayed, for that matter).   Michel.D   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 17:13:53 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) Subject: Re: Itanium troublesn+ Message-ID: <a9f1oh$ppe$1@news.btv.ibm.com>o  5 In article <slrnabi5k5.1912.skipper@web1.calweb.com>,t1 Skipper Smith <skipper@no-spam.calweb.com> wrote:a >aI >As an exercise for the reader, design a bridge chip that can handle whatnI >PowerPC calls little-endian and convert it to TRUE little-endian on PCI,wJ >handling the fact that someone could read a misaligned word value and tryG >to write it back as four independent characters...  Try not to have an 3 >aneurysm as a result as you strive for perfection.e  H And if software is your bag, write a glue stub that can be called in anyI of the three possible Endian modes (big, true-little, and bit-munged) and"J transfer control to endian-appropriate code.  For bonus points, write codeG that also considers the fact that the memory controller can be switchednI independently from one mode to another, and discover new applications for  palindromic code!p   Michel.t   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:08:15 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>h* Subject: Re: Java with the WASD webserver.6 Message-ID: <20020415080815.17834.qmail@gacracker.org>  E On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote:d   <snip>  K >I hadn't given the [JAVA]JAVA.COM wrapper much attention in quite a while oM >even though there'd been a couple of Compaq OpenVMS Java releases.  The old eH >version worked with a tweak for the newer Java directory locations and M >structures but I recently put together (rather quickly I might add, so it's  J >probably less than optimal) a procedure that should also work for future M >releases that follow the same naming schema, etc.  It just happens to be in  J >the (until now) unannounced 7.2.2 update release.  Anyone else how would 6 >like it before/without the the update can get it from >f( >   http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/java/  D Yes, as you'd see from my other message I have installed the updatedG version and it all works now. I also suspect the web server is a little  faster in serving up pages.i  C I saw that you're working on v8, Ken Kalish mailed back to me afterrI querying you about Tomcat that you were looking into it. Will support foriJ Tomcat be included in the final v8 release of WASD? If so, I'd be happy to beta it for that function.     Doc. -- f6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.nett   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:01:36 GMT** From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)e@ Message-ID: <kVuu8.44406$K5.4300047@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messager% news:3CB9FF79.C0F01138@prodigy.net...b > Bill Todd wrote: > >y > <snip>L > > And just as with the computer, *major* advances were made in simplifyingI > > automobile operation over the years (and not just the early years, as, we'reeI > > still in with computers):  automatic transmissions, automatic chokes,aJ > > self-regulating fuel systems (ever balanced a pair of SU carburetors?) andmF > > ignition systems (remember 'points'?), automated convertible tops, poweredvG > > starters, horns, and windshield wipers, ...  Computers will make itr possibleL > > to simplify automobile operation even more, possibly even to automate itB > > fully - but doing this with the hazardous real-time system and
 incrediblyJ > > complex environment that is the realm of the automobile will require a great G > > deal more care and effort than simplifying the interface of desktopa( > > computers as we currently know them. > >iK > > When computers have been in common use for as many human generations as6L > > automobiles have now, expect their use to be similarly in-grained in theH > > social psyche - in part because the complexity of operating them has been4 > > reduced, and standardized, as much as practical. > > 
 > > - bill >T >eI > FWIW, the owner's manual for my new Saturn is MUCH thicker than was the  onegK > for my 1960 Comet, and I don't think much of that is because it is bettere& > written.  Cars are MORE complex now.  D Of course cars are more complex now, just as computers are - but theI expertise required to use them has dramatically decreased, just as it hasuJ with computers.  Most people don't have to (and probably don't) read theirD owners' manuals, but the information is there for those who want it.  H Cars today are far simpler to operate (e.g., automatic transmissions andK chokes, as I mentioned above, plus recently ABS and anti-skid systems, plus.E little things like turn signals that turn off automatically), and fareH simpler to maintain (in fact, the only remaining regular maintenance, asL distinct from longer-term items like belt replacement, involves changing oilK and filter and checking tire pressures - which I've fallen out of the habitJL of doing because tires now seal to rims almost well enough not to require itA any more, rather than regularly adjusting valves, and points, andeK distributor timing, and clutch travel, and brakes, and wheel alignment...).o  K Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, butM@ required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 07:16:03 GMTi  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)t+ Message-ID: <3CBA7E25.5417D33B@prodigy.net>n   Bill Todd wrote: > / > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message ' > news:3CB9FF79.C0F01138@prodigy.net...n > > Bill Todd wrote: > > >l
 > > <snip>N > > > And just as with the computer, *major* advances were made in simplifyingK > > > automobile operation over the years (and not just the early years, asr > we're@K > > > still in with computers):  automatic transmissions, automatic chokes,-L > > > self-regulating fuel systems (ever balanced a pair of SU carburetors?) > and:H > > > ignition systems (remember 'points'?), automated convertible tops,	 > powered<I > > > starters, horns, and windshield wipers, ...  Computers will make it:
 > possibleN > > > to simplify automobile operation even more, possibly even to automate itD > > > fully - but doing this with the hazardous real-time system and > incrediblyL > > > complex environment that is the realm of the automobile will require a > greataI > > > deal more care and effort than simplifying the interface of desktopn* > > > computers as we currently know them. > > >oM > > > When computers have been in common use for as many human generations assN > > > automobiles have now, expect their use to be similarly in-grained in theJ > > > social psyche - in part because the complexity of operating them has > been6 > > > reduced, and standardized, as much as practical. > > >a > > > - bill > >( > >aK > > FWIW, the owner's manual for my new Saturn is MUCH thicker than was theo > onelM > > for my 1960 Comet, and I don't think much of that is because it is betterw( > > written.  Cars are MORE complex now. > F > Of course cars are more complex now, just as computers are - but theK > expertise required to use them has dramatically decreased, just as it has L > with computers.  Most people don't have to (and probably don't) read theirF > owners' manuals, but the information is there for those who want it. > J > Cars today are far simpler to operate (e.g., automatic transmissions andM > chokes, as I mentioned above, plus recently ABS and anti-skid systems, plusmG > little things like turn signals that turn off automatically), and far-J > simpler to maintain (in fact, the only remaining regular maintenance, asN > distinct from longer-term items like belt replacement, involves changing oilM > and filter and checking tire pressures - which I've fallen out of the habit N > of doing because tires now seal to rims almost well enough not to require itC > any more, rather than regularly adjusting valves, and points, andeM > distributor timing, and clutch travel, and brakes, and wheel alignment...).i > M > Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, butsB > required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced. >  > - bill  M I'll go with you to a point.  It's probably easier to get basic functionalityfN out of a car now, just like a computer.  But I still maintain that to use one  effectively is MORE complex.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:05:30 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) 0 Message-ID: <a9e1ka$6dh$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3CB9CAFD.54E1DA60@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  >Nick Maclaren wrote:rA >> But one hallmark of good engineering design is that it makes alA >> complex system as easy, safe and efficient to use as possible.v> >> Unnecessary difficulty of use is a sure sign of bad design. >uM >A GUI system is not much different than a character cell menu system such as2M >ALL-I-1: it removes the need to remember the commands and what arguments arem, >needed and shows you what your options are.  B In theory.  In practice, you are faced with something every bit asG inscrutable and no help system!  A good test of whether a GUI interface'C is badly designed is how much paper you need to use it - needing tohA read a book on it is very bad, but so is having to copy text ontoB$ paper to type it into another field.  K >The GUI does it in a more aestetically pleasing manner than character cellaJ >menu system. GUI and character cell menus save some time because you justJ >tab/point to the field and type in the value instead of havin to type the >field name and value.  B Evidence is that this doesn't save time.  Switching modes of input> takes longer than typing 5-10 extra characters.  Automatically7 copied large chunks of text (e.g. URLs) does save time.:  O >But does the user interface actually simplify the job ? No. It is the softwarer# >behind it that simplifies the job.T  7 Agreed.  When it does, which is not all that common :-(o  L >I can create a user name on VMS in a few seconds with ALL-IN-1. Type in theH >username, the user's name, and profile and optionally his phone number,O >address etc, and press return. Voila. Username created, user directory createdhH >and set to the right ownership etc etc. Or I can create a username withM >authorize specifying all the parameters one wants for that account, manuallyh0 >create the directory and set its onwership etc. >rN >Now, you can have some fancy Windows GUI that helps you create VMS usernames.N >But is that much different in functionality from the ALL-IN-1 way of creating
 >a username ?c  C Yes.  It prevents you taking an accurate record.  So that, when youeB report a bug, the support people can always say that you must haveC made a mistake.  This saves developers time because they don't have  to fix most bugs.a     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:47:48 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)wA Message-ID: <Uswu8.30132$%l3.3336607@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>.  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message % news:3CBA7E25.5417D33B@prodigy.net...r      A > I'll go with you to a point.  It's probably easier to get basico
 functionality-K > out of a car now, just like a computer.  But I still maintain that to use5 one8 > effectively is MORE complex.  J I provided a bunch of examples of things that now require a lot less skillB to use effectively, and there are many more.  Have you ever used aJ non-synchromesh manual transmission?  Do you have any idea how much betterK the average vehicle handles today than was the case half a century ago (the I limit of my personal experience, but production vehicle handling may haven5 improved a lot in the previous half-century as well)?t  I Start providing similar numbers of convincing examples of areas requiringtF more skill than in times past, and I might stop suspecting that you're talking through your hat.l   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:08:44 GMT-* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) @ Message-ID: <wMwu8.58908$%8.4814023@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagei* news:a9e1ka$6dh$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk.... > In article <3CB9CAFD.54E1DA60@videotron.ca>,1 > JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t > >Nick Maclaren wrote:oC > >> But one hallmark of good engineering design is that it makes aoC > >> complex system as easy, safe and efficient to use as possible.,@ > >> Unnecessary difficulty of use is a sure sign of bad design. > >dL > >A GUI system is not much different than a character cell menu system such asK > >ALL-I-1: it removes the need to remember the commands and what arguments  are . > >needed and shows you what your options are. >nD > In theory.  In practice, you are faced with something every bit as! > inscrutable and no help system!s  G Windows certainly has comprehensive on-line help available, both in thesI context of the current activity and indexed (and cross-indexed) to aid inxJ finding out other operations that might be pertinent, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say above.   (   A good test of whether a GUI interfaceE > is badly designed is how much paper you need to use it - needing to0C > read a book on it is very bad, but so is having to copy text ontoi& > paper to type it into another field.  I The amount of paper documentation available for Windows is no more a good I measure of the comparative need for it than the example of the voluminous L Saturn owner's manual recently cited.  In this case at least in part becauseK a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful on-screen"L context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line interfaceG is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individualI items from it, for example.    >bH > >The GUI does it in a more aestetically pleasing manner than character cellL > >menu system. GUI and character cell menus save some time because you justL > >tab/point to the field and type in the value instead of havin to type the > >field name and value. >t* > Evidence is that this doesn't save time.  I Please cite your authoritative source for this (it's something you reallysF need to do far more often).  Be sure to include any effects related toJ having full context for data entry in front of you in a menu screen (whereG individual errors can be easily seen and corrected) vs. (at best) being-J prompted one item at a time with command input:  it's easy to suspect thatG when the data-entry person is obtaining the information via 'phone thisaJ could make a noticeable difference.  I suppose it's possible that the pastL several decades of use of form-style screens have been completely misguided,9 but I'm more inclined to suspect that your perception is.l   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:25:52 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) 5 Message-ID: <01KGLQXWMBNM000K1Z@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>    Bill Todd wrote:  E >Of course cars are more complex now, just as computers are - but theaJ >expertise required to use them has dramatically decreased, just as it hasK >with computers.  Most people don't have to (and probably don't) read theirXE >owners' manuals, but the information is there for those who want it.n >eI >Cars today are far simpler to operate (e.g., automatic transmissions andnL >chokes, as I mentioned above, plus recently ABS and anti-skid systems, plusF >little things like turn signals that turn off automatically), and farI >simpler to maintain (in fact, the only remaining regular maintenance, asbM >distinct from longer-term items like belt replacement, involves changing oilvL >and filter and checking tire pressures - which I've fallen out of the habitM >of doing because tires now seal to rims almost well enough not to require it B >any more, rather than regularly adjusting valves, and points, andL >distributor timing, and clutch travel, and brakes, and wheel alignment...). >nL >Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, butA >required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced.y  K Well, as I am still of the old school with computing, i.e., I still prefer aM typed input interaction rather than point-and-click, my wife and myself both nM still like as much physical interaction with cars.  After about 40 years for nK each of us, we still like to do things like to "crash" the gears ourselves.e  L O.K., some of the points mentioned by Bill we do enjoy (?), but to me it is M similar to appreciating the later versions of VMS.  Neither for me with VMS, e@ nor us with our cars, will a point-and-click world be "driving".   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 11:28:53 +0200- From: Andreas Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de>nG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)>* Message-ID: <m3sn5xs42y.fsf@elgin.eder.de>  , "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  I > Windows certainly has comprehensive on-line help available, both in thenK > context of the current activity and indexed (and cross-indexed) to aid in L > finding out other operations that might be pertinent, so I'm not sure what > you're trying to say above.t  C Why is it then, that very often I only find 'Please ask your system  administrator' in the Help?   K > The amount of paper documentation available for Windows is no more a good K > measure of the comparative need for it than the example of the voluminous/N > Saturn owner's manual recently cited.  In this case at least in part becauseM > a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful on-screenrN > context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line interfaceI > is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individualw > items from it, for example.r  F This might be true in theory - in practice I find the CLI a lot richer& an more flexible than the Windows GUI.   Andreasf --  + Wherever I lay my .emacs, theres my $HOME.e   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 15:20:39 +0200: From: jthorn@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at (Jonathan Thornburg)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)u8 Message-ID: <3cbad3b1$0$8780$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at>  @ In article <wMwu8.58908$%8.4814023@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:w# [[about the Microsoft Windows GUI]]1& >In this case at least in part becauseL >a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful on-screenM >context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line interface H >is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individual >items from it, for example.  D Harumph!  Yesterday I had the misfortune to have to use a MS WindowsF system to scan some handwritten notes and secure-ftp the scanned filesB to a Unix system for further massaging into jpegs on a web server.A I certainly never saw anything in the online help which explainede? when I was supposed to single-click and when to double-click towF navigate around the remote system filesystem tree in the sftp program.B And only through past use of the (HP) scanner program would I haveH known that that the "Path" menu actually selects the scanner resolution.  E I never did figure out how to select multiple files at a time for thei  sftp program -- I ended up doingH    ctrl/u            (shortcut was nicely noted on the menu, I will say)!    left-click on source file name J    carrige return         (*not* noted on menu as a way to start the sftp)G separately for each of 35 files.  I will grant that doing all the files G one at a time this way certainly allows much more *flexible* operations E than the shell wildcards used by the several-decades-old command-linetI ftp program's "mput" command, but "convenient" or "takes less of my time"p are another matter...e  H Oh well, at least I was able to do the tiff --> pbm --> rescale --> jpegH transformations, and the cvs commits to get the jpegs to our web server,L from the (Unix) command-line side, where scripting and multi-file operations	 are easy.    -- t) -- Jonathan Thornburg <jthorn@aei.mpg.de>mJ    Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),D    Golm, Germany             http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.htmlJ    "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." -- Mahatma Gandhi   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:09:20 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)b@ Message-ID: <4iAu8.46099$iw.4560879@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Andreas Eder" <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de> wrote in message$ news:m3sn5xs42y.fsf@elgin.eder.de.... > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >aK > > Windows certainly has comprehensive on-line help available, both in theeJ > > context of the current activity and indexed (and cross-indexed) to aid inI > > finding out other operations that might be pertinent, so I'm not surej what > > you're trying to say above.l >nE > Why is it then, that very often I only find 'Please ask your systemB > administrator' in the Help?   I I really couldn't say, because I've never encountered that instruction insI Windows help.  It would certainly be an unusual statement in Win9x (given>F that AFAIK it does not have the concept of such a person), and I don'tL recall seeing it in NT (but I haven't plumbed the depths of NT help as much, nor used Win2K much at all).   >wH > > The amount of paper documentation available for Windows is no more a goodB > > measure of the comparative need for it than the example of the
 voluminousH > > Saturn owner's manual recently cited.  In this case at least in part becauserE > > a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting usefuls	 on-screen F > > context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line	 interfacelK > > is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individual  > > items from it, for example.  >lH > This might be true in theory - in practice I find the CLI a lot richer( > an more flexible than the Windows GUI.  I The fact that Microsoft may have simply omitted many functions altogethersJ from its GUI is not an indictment of the utility of that kind of interfaceJ but only of Microsoft's particular implementation.  My objection is to theI suggestion that a GUI is less useful for the same set of common functions L than a command interface, not to a suggestion that (e.g.) the Windows GUI is less comprehensive than DCL.  K Apple put a great deal of serious, formal human research into designing its K GUI.  I'd like to see something at least as formal from anyone who suggests  it was faulty.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:32:56 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)t@ Message-ID: <cEAu8.61496$%8.4976826@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  2 <paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message/ news:01KGLQXWMBNM000K1Z@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au...m > Bill Todd wrote:   ...h  J > >Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, buteC > >required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced.i >eL > Well, as I am still of the old school with computing, i.e., I still preferI > typed input interaction rather than point-and-click, my wife and myself  bothJ > still like as much physical interaction with cars.  After about 40 years forcB > each of us, we still like to do things like to "crash" the gears
 ourselves. >rJ > O.K., some of the points mentioned by Bill we do enjoy (?), but to me it isI > similar to appreciating the later versions of VMS.  Neither for me withs VMS,B > nor us with our cars, will a point-and-click world be "driving".  E I feel much the same way (especially about cars), but that really haslE nothing to do with the point at issue (design for ease of use).  JusttJ because I happen to value (mostly because I still enjoy exercising) skillsF that once were necessary does not mean that products aren't better for$ having eliminated the need for them.  L My father grew up with unsynchronized manual transmissions, and I learned toJ double-clutch from him (back when only the gears above first were commonlyI synchronized).  But aside from one memorable night in rural Michigan whenaH possession of that skill enabled me to drive back to civilization with aE broken clutch cable I can't say that skill has ever been particularly, useful.   K Same goes for manual transmissions in general:  while automatics were still K noticeably inferior in both efficiency and control when I learned to drive, J those problems have almost entirely disappeared now.  I'll be sorry if theF option to shift manually ever disappears because it's a skill I *like*I exercising, but the only times in recent memory when it has ever made anyuJ real difference have been in negotiating deep snow.  My daughter will soonL be learning to drive, and I'm not sure that the effort of learning to manageH a clutch and manual transmission on her part (and the teaching effort on mine) will ever be repaid.  J Some old acquired automotive skills I'm very happy to have left completelyK behind me.  Knowing exactly how many times to pump the accelerator pedal ontK a cold morning to get started without flooding the carburetor may have beennJ worth a bit in the way of pride but can't hold a candle to just being ableH to turn the key and expect the car to start (thanks to computerized fuelL injection).  And while having to control both fuel mixture and spark advanceF manually in very early cars was undoubtedly a skill of a significantly: higher order, I have no wish that it were still necessary.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 06:44:29 -0700( From: fox@crisp.demon.co.uk (Paul D Fox)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) = Message-ID: <772053ad.0204150544.29bcd86d@posting.google.com>   _ Andreas Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<m3sn5xs42y.fsf@elgin.eder.de>... . > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > K > > Windows certainly has comprehensive on-line help available, both in themM > > context of the current activity and indexed (and cross-indexed) to aid infN > > finding out other operations that might be pertinent, so I'm not sure what > > you're trying to say above.a > E > Why is it then, that very often I only find 'Please ask your system  > administrator' in the Help?   F Respectfully disagree with Bill. Much of Windows help is useless crap,C and also much of it just links to their web site, which aint no usen5 when you're trying to install or get your network up.e  M > > The amount of paper documentation available for Windows is no more a good2M > > measure of the comparative need for it than the example of the voluminous P > > Saturn owner's manual recently cited.  In this case at least in part becauseO > > a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful on-screennP > > context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line interfaceK > > is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individuals > > items from it, for example.u  D Microsofts Operating systems documentation included with the productE has gone downhill over the years. You would think they would documentaE each part of the OS, like the Unix man pages, but instead its more ofe< a 'What are you trying to do', and none of it fits the bill.  " Their Office apps are much better.  E And MSDN kicks rocks as does their website. But the 'your on your ownn  Bud' documentation is appalling.  H > This might be true in theory - in practice I find the CLI a lot richer( > an more flexible than the Windows GUI. > 	 > Andreas)  B Here! Here! When colleagues look over my should when using Windiz,- they think I am using an xterm to a Unix box.I  D Just wish they would fix the 10 year old bug in CMD.EXE/doskey which> is when you hit <F8> it randomly cycles thru the last matching= command. (Win95 had this fixed from the start, but NT didnt).:  B CMD.EXE is poor but its a helluva lot better than the pointy-trick	 explorer.w   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:50:33 GMT@* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)o@ Message-ID: <IUAu8.46195$iw.4597063@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  G "Jonathan Thornburg" <jthorn@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at> wrote in messaget2 news:3cbad3b1$0$8780$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at...B > In article <wMwu8.58908$%8.4814023@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,+ > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:s% > [[about the Microsoft Windows GUI]]a( > >In this case at least in part becauseD > >a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful	 on-screeneE > >context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command liney	 interfacedJ > >is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individual > >items from it, for example. > F > Harumph!  Yesterday I had the misfortune to have to use a MS WindowsH > system to scan some handwritten notes and secure-ftp the scanned filesD > to a Unix system for further massaging into jpegs on a web server.C > I certainly never saw anything in the online help which explainedcA > when I was supposed to single-click and when to double-click torH > navigate around the remote system filesystem tree in the sftp program.  I Perhaps you were looking in the wrong place:  that kind of information iseI (or for any competently-designed program should be) generic to the systemlK interface rather than specific to a single program.  What online help wouldtJ you point to in your command interface of choice that would have explainedK exactly how to do it via that method (starting with the applicable commandse to use)?  K One advantage of a GUI is that it presents far more context than a blinkingmJ cursor so that it at least give you some ideas where to begin if you don't know something.n  D > And only through past use of the (HP) scanner program would I haveJ > known that that the "Path" menu actually selects the scanner resolution. > G > I never did figure out how to select multiple files at a time for thei" > sftp program -- I ended up doingJ >    ctrl/u            (shortcut was nicely noted on the menu, I will say)# >    left-click on source file namenL >    carrige return         (*not* noted on menu as a way to start the sftp)I > separately for each of 35 files.  I will grant that doing all the files I > one at a time this way certainly allows much more *flexible* operationsyG > than the shell wildcards used by the several-decades-old command-line K > ftp program's "mput" command, but "convenient" or "takes less of my time"e > are another matter...e  L It's not your time that's at issue:  it's the time of a user learning eitherI system from scratch.  Of course you can use the system you're used to far-2 more easily than the one that's unfamiliar to you.   > J > Oh well, at least I was able to do the tiff --> pbm --> rescale --> jpegJ > transformations, and the cvs commits to get the jpegs to our web server,C > from the (Unix) command-line side, where scripting and multi-filel
 operations > are easy.   F Writing programs to do exactly what you want to is easy too.  That hasH little to do with the relative utility of different canned interfaces to< non-experts (who constitute the vast majority of all users).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:04:20 +0200o9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>uG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)a' Message-ID: <3CBADDE4.7DB7724C@aaa.com>   B Hm, note that automatic transmissions are more or less a "feature"A for the leasy US'es :-) In Europe, manual is still the way to go.v> Imagine a Lotus or a Ferrari with an automatic transmission...  E Learning to manage a clutch and manual transmission, must be the easyaG part of driving. Learning to behave sensible in traffic has always beenj! and will always be the hard part.s  C Anyway, we'll have to drive less in the future to save the earth....   Jan-Erik Sderholm.o   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 14:23:41 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) 0 Message-ID: <a9enpd$s4t$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  @ In article <wMwu8.58908$%8.4814023@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:8 |> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message- |> news:a9e1ka$6dh$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...  |> > >C |> > >A GUI system is not much different than a character cell menuaB |> > > system such as ALL-I-1: it removes the need to remember the@ |> > > commands and what arguments are needed and shows you what |> > > your options are. |> >G |> > In theory.  In practice, you are faced with something every bit asa$ |> > inscrutable and no help system! |> :J |> Windows certainly has comprehensive on-line help available, both in theL |> context of the current activity and indexed (and cross-indexed) to aid inM |> finding out other operations that might be pertinent, so I'm not sure whatn |> you're trying to say above.  ? I assume that you mean Microsoft Windows, as X Windows does not  have such a system!   @ Have you ever used a good help system?  The VMS one is adequate,A though not good, but there were a fair number of good ones arounde academia in the 1970s.  ? The point is that the simplistic help systems as implemented onw> the better GUIs will tell you what buttons etc. do and provide@ similar information; they may even tell you which actions relate> to that facility.  Of course, they interactive abominably with? active icons (ones where mere selection causes invokation), but  that is another issue.  : What they do NOT help with is in answering questions like:  ?     I can't find out how to do XXX - is it possible and, if so,w     how do I do it?r  ?     Every time I do XXX, I get the message "Get knotted" - what )     does it mean and how do I resolve it?   + |>   A good test of whether a GUI interfacemH |> > is badly designed is how much paper you need to use it - needing toF |> > read a book on it is very bad, but so is having to copy text onto) |> > paper to type it into another field.u |> cL |> The amount of paper documentation available for Windows is no more a goodL |> measure of the comparative need for it than the example of the voluminousO |> Saturn owner's manual recently cited.  In this case at least in part because N |> a GUI interface is significantly richer in both presenting useful on-screenO |> context and allowing flexible operations on it than a command line interfaceaJ |> is:  consider the ability to view a list of files and select individual |> items from it, for example.  A Well, I was around at the time when GUIs were first being foistedhA on an unsuspecting population as the solution to making computersr@ usable by mere mortals.  They were claimed to be simpler to use,> as shown by the fact that you didn't need manuals to use them.  A I can do the operation you describe perfectly well on the commandeA line - what is the difficulty?  I can also do operations like the 
 following:  @     For all files in a directory that have a name ending in .datC     which have a corresponding name in another directory but endingn     in .prog, run the command > execute weeble.wombat -prog <dir>/<name>.prog -data <name>.dat!     otherwise execute the command-& execute weeble.numbat -data <name>.dat  K |> > >The GUI does it in a more aestetically pleasing manner than characteri |> cell O |> > >menu system. GUI and character cell menus save some time because you justaO |> > >tab/point to the field and type in the value instead of havin to type the  |> > >field name and value.h |> >- |> > Evidence is that this doesn't save time.s |>  L |> Please cite your authoritative source for this (it's something you reallyI |> need to do far more often).  Be sure to include any effects related toaM |> having full context for data entry in front of you in a menu screen (where,J |> individual errors can be easily seen and corrected) vs. (at best) beingM |> prompted one item at a time with command input:  it's easy to suspect that J |> when the data-entry person is obtaining the information via 'phone thisM |> could make a noticeable difference.  I suppose it's possible that the past/O |> several decades of use of form-style screens have been completely misguided,d< |> but I'm more inclined to suspect that your perception is.  @ N.M. Maclaren, pers. comm.  Based on actual measurements of selfB and other users, timed with a watch.  Data lost due to the passage  of time.  So now you have it :-)  @ Now, please produce your source OF AT LEAST THE SAME QUALITY ANDB COMMERCIAL INDEPENDENCE that demonstrates that GUIs save time over< going the same operations using a well-designed command line interpreter.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:11:58 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>sG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)b8 Message-ID: <o2rlbu49scjepunhsf5cvbvdeg69am4rqp@4ax.com>  D On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:04:20 +0200, Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:  C >Hm, note that automatic transmissions are more or less a "feature"eB >for the leasy US'es :-) In Europe, manual is still the way to go.? >Imagine a Lotus or a Ferrari with an automatic transmission...e >tF >Learning to manage a clutch and manual transmission, must be the easyH >part of driving. Learning to behave sensible in traffic has always been" >and will always be the hard part.  E Learning not to head down the wrong side of the road at intersectionsnE is my problem. Why can't you Europeans and Yanks drive on the correct ? lefh-hand side of the road the way nature obviously intended :)e  C Still at least in the US they helpfully put very large signs saying * "Wrong Way" 100yds down from the junction.  D >Anyway, we'll have to drive less in the future to save the earth... >e >Jan-Erik Sderholm.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:48:50 +0200s9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>tG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)i' Message-ID: <3CBAF662.FC6913E8@aaa.com>s  # And what the h--l is "yds"  :-) :-)n9 I thought it was a loooong time ago "all" switched to the.2 metric system... The French Revolution, wasn't it.  	 Jan-Erik.    Alan Greig wrote:, > E > Still at least in the US they helpfully put very large signs saying , > "Wrong Way" 100yds down from the junction. >w   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:42:11 +0200 ( From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)e" Message-ID: <jcse9a.k71.ln@miriam>   Nick Maclaren wrote:E > While there is some truth in this, it is less the capability of thenC > tool so much as the complexity of the tasks they have to perform.d- > Consider a knife and a lithography machine.i  E Hm, a lithography machine can just print. A knife or a hammer can do gF a lot more. That's because it's really a way to increase forces (of a C hand or hand+arm) by geometry (knife) or movement (hammer). If you nE don't have a lithography machine, a stone, a sort-of knife (a chisel  E - a device that transforms forces spatial - big end to thin end) and aF a hammer (a device to transform forces temporal - long accelleration, D short decelleration) can help you to prepare something that's quite ) close - you then need just ink and paper.o  @ The basic idea behind hammer and knife is that it is used by an D extremely complicated device: a human being. And it certainly takes E years of training to be able to produce some fine prints with just a l( chisel, a hammer, stone, ink, and paper.   -- o Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"l http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:20:01 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>wG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)u, Message-ID: <3CBAFDB1.B041C9C8@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:M > Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, butsB > required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced.   Are you kidding ?   M One has to learn how to use that fancy electronic car stereo that is often asuN complex to program as a VCR. One has to learn how to use that fancy GPS moving' map display, the trip computer etc etc.r  L And it is only a matter of time before cars provide an ethernet port so thatI you can plug in into your PC and use your browser to get a report on your 
 car's health.i  J The driving may hav gotten a bit simpler, but the car itself hasn't and isK outfitted with many more gadgets and those compicate the car. A car without 0 adult electronic toys won't attract male buyers.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 16:32:22 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) 0 Message-ID: <a9evam$69k$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3CBAFDB1.B041C9C8@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:e |> Bill Todd wrote:oP |> > Cars today are mostly point and go.  *Driving* skills remain important, butE |> > required knowledge of the vehicle has been dramatically reduced.t |>   |> Are you kidding ? |> lP |> One has to learn how to use that fancy electronic car stereo that is often asQ |> complex to program as a VCR. One has to learn how to use that fancy GPS movingr* |> map display, the trip computer etc etc.  A One doesn't have to, provided that it is shipped with them turnedP? off.  However, your point is justified - recently, I have had a C hire care where I had to drive into a garage to ask how to get into.? reverse gear, because it was rented to me without a copy of themD instruction manual!  The assistant couldn't work out how, either :-)  4 That was in Texas, which may or may not be relevant.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:35:50 GMT / From: "Johan Schoofs" <jschoofs@compuserve.com>oG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) = Message-ID: <GjDu8.5179$mc3.1926260937@hestia.telenet-ops.be>i  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messager! news:3CBADDE4.7DB7724C@aaa.com...mD > Hm, note that automatic transmissions are more or less a "feature"C > for the leasy US'es :-) In Europe, manual is still the way to go.l@ > Imagine a Lotus or a Ferrari with an automatic transmission... >lG > Learning to manage a clutch and manual transmission, must be the easy I > part of driving. Learning to behave sensible in traffic has always beeno# > and will always be the hard part.  >sE > Anyway, we'll have to drive less in the future to save the earth...  >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.p >u  I Be careful with the examples, Jan-Erik: the Ferrari 456 GTA comes with an K automatic gearbox and most other Ferrari's can be had with a semi-automatic I gearboxes in with the clutch is automatically operated. Shifting gears isoK done using paddles on the steering wheel. The same system can be had on thebJ BMW M3 and a few other cars such as the little Toyota Roadster. All Jaguar9 XK roadsters come with an automatic transmission as well!r   Johano   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 16:57:47 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)k0 Message-ID: <a9f0qb$7n0$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  M In article <a9evit$hn4$1@news.btv.ibm.com>,hack@watson.ibm.com (hack) writes:i3 |> In article <a9e1ka$6dh$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,i, |> Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:0 |> >In article <3CB9CAFD.54E1DA60@videotron.ca>,3 |> >JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:- |> -R |> >>Now, you can have some fancy Windows GUI that helps you create VMS usernames.R |> >>But is that much different in functionality from the ALL-IN-1 way of creating |> >>a username ?8 |> >G |> >Yes.  It prevents you taking an accurate record.  So that, when yougF |> >report a bug, the support people can always say that you must haveG |> >made a mistake.  This saves developers time because they don't haves |> >to fix most bugs.l |>  L |> Not necessarily.  If the GUI is indeed just a front end to a well-definedJ |> CLI then it can easily keep a useful log.  Whatever flaws the AIX adminM |> tool "smit" has, it does this one right, imo.  I don't know ALL-IN-1 but Ie1 |> would not be surprised if it offered that too.i  + Memo to self:  Never post satire to Usenet.s  @ smit doesn't get it quite right, incidentally, but isn't too bad< in this respect.  I make no comment about its other aspects.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679e   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 16:36:45 GMT  From: hack@watson.ibm.com (hack)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) + Message-ID: <a9evit$hn4$1@news.btv.ibm.com>e  0 In article <a9e1ka$6dh$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,) Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:t- >In article <3CB9CAFD.54E1DA60@videotron.ca>,h0 >JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: >>Nick Maclaren wrote:  O >>Now, you can have some fancy Windows GUI that helps you create VMS usernames.mO >>But is that much different in functionality from the ALL-IN-1 way of creatingh >>a username ? >sD >Yes.  It prevents you taking an accurate record.  So that, when youC >report a bug, the support people can always say that you must have D >made a mistake.  This saves developers time because they don't have >to fix most bugs.  I Not necessarily.  If the GUI is indeed just a front end to a well-definedoG CLI then it can easily keep a useful log.  Whatever flaws the AIX admincJ tool "smit" has, it does this one right, imo.  I don't know ALL-IN-1 but I. would not be surprised if it offered that too.   Michel.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:47:14 +0000 (UTC)o0 From: sssslewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)" Subject: Re: LVD SCSI on PWS 500au. Message-ID: <a9esm2$9a8$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  L Thanks to everybody for all the helpful suggestions.  In the end I went withL IDE, just because those drives are so cheap (got a 60 GB 7200 RPM Maxtor forL $100 new).  It seems to work just fine on VMS, except my real time app had aK little contention problem when I was trying to upload files and use the apptH at the same time.  I bumped up the application process priorities to 8-9I (leaving the FTP server at 4), and the problem went away but the speed ofm+ the FTP transfers dropped to around 1 MB/s.r  v Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si> writes in article <3CB84E77.149AB8EA@aster.si> dated Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:27:51 +0200:B >I'm using http://www.acard.com/eng/product/scside/aec-7720uw.html, >in my PW 500au, Tru64 v51.A. Drive is IBM :  I That's an interesting product, but why would you use a converter when the   500au has 2 built-in IDE busses?  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orga> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:30:44 -00003 From: sword7@speakeasy.org> Subject: Re: Memo:  Re: Help! VT100 emulators - some problems./ Message-ID: <ublhvktfqro0de@corp.supernews.com>s   paul.beaudoin@hsbc.com wrote:   J > Actually it is a macro program that dumps a very long escape sequence toG > the terminal of choice and it makes each character appear upside downn7 > (UPSID.MAR) I have a copy if anyone is interested....l   > Paul  ) Yes, I am intersted in that.  Send me it.v  
 Thank you.   -- Tim Stark   -- h, Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.orgJ --------------------------------------------------------------------------F "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that H whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 12:33:25 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)1 Subject: Re: OT Best Practises in the IT Industryy3 Message-ID: <2$L2T1d37ZQV@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  ^ In article <3cba0910.2140347667@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes: > * > I've been hit with a report that states:3 > Minimum 30 day password expiry as "Best Practise"o	   ^^^^^^^   
 See below.   > ; > Well I've seen 30, 60, 120 and 180 depending on the site.o > A > Anyone know of any IT Standards Pages that have a list of "Bestc
 > Practises" uC > Tried Google but I'm probably looking for a General Policies Siteo# > rather than a this is our Policy.t > E > I'm aware of reaons against shorter password expiry e.g. Users moreaF > likely to write it down and leave it in their desk drawer! So, again@ > I'm not really looking for the pros and cons, just a, probably  > mythical, Best Practises site. >   I It looks like you have interpreted this as the longest time that the useraG can go without changing the password, but note that it says minimum andl not maximum lifetime.   K My guess is that the report is thinking in terms of those operating systemseG that don't maintain a password history and this is a workaround to stopiD users from changing the password straight back to it's original one.  I If that's the case, you can point to VMS's password history capability to ( see if that's an acceptable alternative.   Simon.   -- oB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:29:42 GMT># From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r Subject: OT: Disaster RecoveryD Message-ID: <qtBu8.839$Gq1.692@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1E6B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. Paul,h  = Re: Disaster backup sites overflowing with other Customers ..S  @ You are correct and there is some additional items to consider -  H 1. Disaster tolerant "rental" sites typically cost in the range of $200kC USD per year (every year) - just to have the equipment and space onaD standby. Now, if implemented, the daily rates are often in excess ofE $10K USD per day. Think about what the final costs would be to go out B and build / find a new site - optimistically 3 months. Now add theH complexity associated with many other Customers also looking for similar spare datacenter space.a  B 2. Based on issues discovered in point 1.), some Customers are nowB questioning whether 2 sites is enough i.e. perhaps 3 site clustersC (active-active-passive?) are the right approach for the future? Big B issue is that if the primary site goes away permanently, then thatF business must run  everything on a single site and that is a huge risk to their business.  H Question for future discussion - does the disaster recovery site you are5 renting from have a backup site? Some do, some don't.h  B 3. While obviously not for everyone, keep in mind that the cost ofF multi-site solutions for those that are looking at them typically haveH downtimes that mean even a few hours would pay for all the multi-site HWH and software. That does not even consider that Vendors credibility as anF online financial provider. Picture becomes even more critical when one@ considers the ever extending times for online financial trading.  A 4. While bandwidth and latency are always going to be issues withoD multi-site clusters, keep in mind that for large centers, Cisco (andF others in that space) already offer 10Gb WAN solutions today with 40Gb
 demonstrated.b    J Many businesses carry 'business interruption' insurance policies. Like allH insurance policies, there is a premium paid for this. Some insurers willJ lower the premiums on policies such as these if there is a hot-backup siteK for critical business function, much in the same way that you can get lower J premiums on your home insurance if you have a monitored burglar/fire alarmI system. So, while hot-backup is not cheap, there can be some reduction in  other costs.    L Frankly I cannot understand why anyone would put a disaster recovery site soJ close to a primary site (NYC and Brooklyn/Jersey City as an example). I doJ know all the arguments about proximity of staff, and other infrastructure. But this ignores other factors.   J In 1979 there were two instances in which mass evacuations of entire areasI took place - downwind of the Three Mile Island nuclear plant, and anothermL involving 250,000 residents of a suburb of Toronto, Canada following a trainI derailment and a risk of widespread chemical contamination. Admittedly no-I computing sites in the areas were directly affected by explosions, etc...@I and that remote system administration was light-years behind capabilities G available today. However, systems do go down, disks fail, trees fall onnL comms lines, etc....and if nobody is allowed into an evacuated area and bothE your primary and hot-backup site are within that zone - you're toast.f  @ The 1986 Chernobyl reactor explosion in the Ukraine left an areaJ approximately the size of Iowa and Illinois contaminated with radiation atH levels high enough to warrant concern. Depending on wind patterns at theH time of the accident, some towns as much as 200 kilometers away were hitL with enough fallout to warrant their permanent evacuation. It's difficult toJ find exact figures of the area immediately surrounding the reactor complex+ that is off-limits - most figures I've seentJ (http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1990/s90/s90gale.html  and other sites)K indicate that an area with a radius of approximately 30 kilometers centered L on the reactor is permanently evacuated - about 2900 square kilometers. PityH the business in any industrialized country that has its primary/hot-site- within a similar zone in a similar situation.k  L Going a bit further along this thread, I know of many primary/hot-sites thatB are within the impact zone of the same geological fault, and whoseL structures are not earthquake reinforced. Not all building codes contemplate earthquake resistance.  K If you're in 'Tornado Alley', maybe your backup site should be underground, 1 and also not in a flood plain of any major river.t  E Not all of these criteria can be met by simply locating your hot-sitem 'across the river'.   I If you have not already done so, investigate your local disaster recoverymK groups and the planning/learning resources available to you. One suggestionu" of a place to begin is www.drj.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:27:11 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a9 Subject: Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!aD Message-ID: <PyAu8.807$Gq1.235@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  2 "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@insightbb.com> wrote in message2 news:in9kbuc8nvbnddijtm5gr6b1hrbvreds1d@4ax.com... >'F > While this may be true, this is closer to the source than some folks+ > in here pontificating their own opinions.  >e3 > Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqh/ > (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)   H I just have to wonder how many people 'lost' their careers betting theirL company's computing future on Digital/Compaq public commitments, much less aJ 'vaporware' letter. Collectively, how much money do you think corporationsL have wasted in porting because they came to distrust whatever Digital/Compaq
 told them.  H How much trust would YOU have in 'secret letters' if you were a customerD right now? Just how much credibility do you believe the people whose. signatures may be on the 'secret' letter have?  I Those who 'pontificate' do so in public - and the alleged contents of the-C 'secret letter' is pontification in its own right, so why isn't theF 'vaporware' letter public?  J Show me an irrevocable letter of credit issued by Compaq/HP guaranteeing aJ 100% refund of all my hardware, software, porting, & training costs if theK plug is pulled on VMS in the next 7 years, and maybe I'll consider trusting  a 'vaporware' letter.   * If you want my trust, you have to earn it.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:00:49 -07001 From: KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a9 Subject: Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger! = Message-ID: <6ec1251e.0204150700.5fb39886@posting.google.com>t  V Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message news:<3CB83F0E.976084E5@gce.com>...N > I for one am happy to hear that there has been some confirmation HP does notK > plan to abolish VMS. There have been numerous messages here bemoaning the  > lack of such a message.i   I agree.  F I recently happened across a pointer to info that came out of HP right; at the time of the merger announcement (Sept. 6, 2001) (see E http://www2.tru64.org/phorum/read.php?f=8&i=47&t=32 )  With regard tou  VMS, HP's Public Relations said:F "We are committed to the plan laid out for Alpha when Compaq announcedA its agreement with Intel to standardize its 64-bit servers on thetB Itanium processor family." (meaning EV6 shrinks, EV7, EV79, but no	 EV8), and.@ "Compaq has made a long-term commitment to its important OpenVMSA customers and will continue to deliver on its committed roadmap."d  C I suspect the main reason HP has said nothing about VMS recently issB that there had been no change in the plans, thus no news.  I thinkF they thought they got the message out early on, in press contacts like> the one above.  Considering that I hadn't seen this info untilA recently, it's clear the message didn't get out through the right,E channels to reach the VMS base at the time, but it's good to see them B willing to restate it now, in written form, even under the present: circumstances of increased scrutiny after the merger vote.. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:16:10 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n9 Subject: Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!aD Message-ID: <_8Cu8.886$Gq1.593@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Keith Parris" <KeithParris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:6ec1251e.0204150700.5fb39886@posting.google.com...s4 > Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message# news:<3CB83F0E.976084E5@gce.com>... L > > I for one am happy to hear that there has been some confirmation HP does notmI > > plan to abolish VMS. There have been numerous messages here bemoaning  the  > > lack of such a message., >n
 > I agree. >eH > I recently happened across a pointer to info that came out of HP right= > at the time of the merger announcement (Sept. 6, 2001) (see,G > http://www2.tru64.org/phorum/read.php?f=8&i=47&t=32 )  With regard tof" > VMS, HP's Public Relations said:H > "We are committed to the plan laid out for Alpha when Compaq announcedC > its agreement with Intel to standardize its 64-bit servers on thelD > Itanium processor family." (meaning EV6 shrinks, EV7, EV79, but no > EV8), and B > "Compaq has made a long-term commitment to its important OpenVMSC > customers and will continue to deliver on its committed roadmap."o >uE > I suspect the main reason HP has said nothing about VMS recently is D > that there had been no change in the plans, thus no news.  I thinkH > they thought they got the message out early on, in press contacts like@ > the one above.  Considering that I hadn't seen this info untilC > recently, it's clear the message didn't get out through the rightoG > channels to reach the VMS base at the time, but it's good to see them$D > willing to restate it now, in written form, even under the present< > circumstances of increased scrutiny after the merger vote.0 > ----------------------------------------------0 > Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org    K Public Relations department...give us a break...that's a lot like believing> in the tooth fairy.   J There has been much discussion in this ng and others, on other forums, allF of which are alleged to be visited/monitored by Compaq. If word hasn'tF filtered up to the people in the stratosphere that customers were veryC concerned, then what are we supposed to do? Put our faith in Publica1 Relations? That's a sound business decision. Not.T  K Our sales drones are in the dark, most people at Compaq don't know what VMS K is, Carly et al. shoot their mouths off multiple times on everything CompaqdA has except VMS, and people are wondering why the customer base isA concerned???   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:44:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o9 Subject: Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no merger!d, Message-ID: <3CBB0363.4F2BBA15@videotron.ca>   Keith Parris wrote:eB > "Compaq has made a long-term commitment to its important OpenVMSC > customers and will continue to deliver on its committed roadmap."   I That could be interpreted that of the relatively few customers consideredeI "important", Compaq had promised to provide support for X years for their-H existing installations.  The wording is specific enough that it makes on question their true intents.  L Had the text said "Compaq has made long term commitment to the VMS operatingM system and will continue to deliver on its committed roadmap", then the hopesm of VMS woudl have been higher.  E Note also that this mentions only COMPAQ. Not HP. What Compaq says ise6 irrelevant. It is what the new owner says that counts.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 02 11:45:38 GMT> From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt2 Subject: Re: Predictions - just for the hell of it+ Message-ID: <a9eqfs$n3e$2@bob.news.rcn.net>t  C In article <rgos8.277748$2q2.25449786@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,t.    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > K >"Malcolm MacArthur" <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in messageg> >news:Xns91EADAD76CCA8malcolmixnevernessfree@195.92.193.157...+ >> Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in 3 >> news:2o2oauk04dgffenie1dbvacfl4musrvbqj@4ax.com:m >  >....  >s= >> > "VMS Systems are not normally connected to the Internet"e$ >> > - Digital UCX V1 documentation. >>K >> ... which isn't surprising, considering that with UCX 1.0 you had to pay0I >> for something the Unix people were bundling for free (and UCX probablyDK >> wasn't as good). What I guess no-one realised (and it's easy to see withtI >> hindsight, which of course has 20/20 vision...) is the extent to whichjK >> networking computers and getting them to talk to each other would becomen3 >> just as important as the computers themselves...a >iH >Sigh.  DEC realized this more and earlier than just about anyone else.   ; Right.  JMF's first project (when he was hired in 1970) wasn7 to get lots of computers talking to each other at ORNL.,  	 > .. WhatlK >they failed to realize (especially after adopting the "VAX is the future!" K >attitude) was that they couldn't dictate which computers were important to.# >talk with well and which were not.0  A That was a side effect of the DECnet biz.  It took them years andt: years to decide on specs.  By the time, a flavor was ready" to ship it was ten years too late.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:21:59 -0400 ; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>-" Subject: Printserver 32 Error CodeI Message-ID: <032D86684229CC4AB84588A0BE50FC4002FBBC@rlghncst625.usps.gov>   / We have a venerable Printserver 32 no longer on-' support and long bereft of documentage.   2 Someone in their infinite wisdom power cycled said5 Printserver on Friday and now we're getting the erroro message 0F10.0080.  7 If there's any significance to this beyond "I can't getU5 a load from my host" (my guess) can anyone enlighten?    Thanks in advance, ============================== William W. Webb, EDS' c/o USPS, DSSC OpenVMS Support Servicesw" 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616  919 874 3043  -   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:45:28 GMTa0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>& Subject: Re: Printserver 32 Error Code; Message-ID: <150420021240409624%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>o  
 In articleD <032D86684229CC4AB84588A0BE50FC4002FBBC@rlghncst625.usps.gov>, Webb,4 William W Raleigh, NC <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> wrote:  1 > We have a venerable Printserver 32 no longer ond) > support and long bereft of documentage.c > 4 > Someone in their infinite wisdom power cycled said7 > Printserver on Friday and now we're getting the error  > message 0F10.0080. > 9 > If there's any significance to this beyond "I can't getB7 > a load from my host" (my guess) can anyone enlighten?v  E It's not a booting problem, but a hardware problem, probably with thea upper paper tray.e   Paul   -- i  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringo   Compaq Computer Corporationo   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:09:29 -0700 From: hchen3@uwo.ca (Sammy) 5 Subject: Re: Redirect SYS$OUTPUT for detached processr= Message-ID: <2c0966c2.0204150709.3482dc4e@posting.google.com>    Hi John:  E   Thanks for all the help that you gave me ever since i start postingsF in this forum. The reason i was using IO$M_NOW because i thought thereF will be no reader attached to the mailbox, so i have to make the writeF proceed immediately to prevent the mailbox from locking up. (i thoughtA there is no reader for the mailbox) Well, obviously, i forgot thetC "detached process" is the reader for the mailbox. My bad. Anyway, ic' try your suggestion and here is result.s    First try:     $ CREATE your-file.dat 11am *EXIT* $ OPEN Q your-file.dat $ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT Q' $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "some text"C %DCL-W-UNDFIL, file has not been opened by DCL - check logical namet $ show trans Q $ show logical Q- %SHOW-F-WRITEERR, error writing SYS$OUTPUT:.;-C -RMS-F-FAC, record operation not permitted by specified file access" (FAC)y $ show trans sys$outputD $ show logical sys$outputD- %SHOW-F-WRITEERR, error writing SYS$OUTPUT:.;rC -RMS-F-FAC, record operation not permitted by specified file access  (FAC)5  0 /************  logout and re-login ************/  $ $ type *.dat                        $ SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SCHEN]YOUR-FILE.DAT;1$                                      11am       Second try:l  4 $ create newsysoutput.log                           4 time-stamp                                          4 *EXIT*                                              4 $ open/append newsysout newSysOutput.log            4 $ define sys$output newsysout                       4 %DCL-E-OPENOUT, error opening NEWSYSOUT:.; as output% -RMS-F-RAT, invalid record attributesN3 $ show trans newsysout                             t3   NEWSYSOUT = "_ALPHA2$DKA300"  (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)e3 $ show trans sys$output                            e/   SYS$OUTPUT = "_TNA7720:"  (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)s  4 /*************** logout and re-login **************/   $ type newsysoutput.logc time-stamp          D ummm..... i wonder if this has something to do with my system and/or account privileges.e   $ show proc/priv  > 15-APR-2002 10:04:57.37   User: SCHEN            Process ID:   0001FB84F                           Node: ALPHA2           Process name: "SCHEN"   Authorized privileges:A  GRPNAM       IMPERSONATE  NETMBX       PRMMBX       READALL     e SYSNAM  TMPMBXi   Process privileges:t<  GRPNAM               may insert in group logical name table2  IMPERSONATE          may impersonate another user/  NETMBX               may create network devicen2  PRMMBX               may create permanent mailbox4  READALL              may read anything as the owner=  SYSNAM               may insert in system logical name tablei2  TMPMBX               may create temporary mailbox   Process rights:e+  SCHEN                             resources  INTERACTIVE  REMOTE    System rights:  SYS$NODE_ALPHA2  t# The system is running OpenVMS 7.2-1   D If you need additional information, please contact me. Thank you for the effort and good advice.h     Sammye   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 12:42:00 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org5 Subject: Re: Redirect SYS$OUTPUT for detached processh3 Message-ID: <n5Kps9$kRktd@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  [ In article <2c0966c2.0204150709.3482dc4e@posting.google.com>, hchen3@uwo.ca (Sammy) writes:h > First try:   >  > $ CREATE your-file.dat > 11am > *EXIT* > $ OPEN Q your-file.dat  B You left out the /APPEND and opened the file for reading.  Perhaps6 I left that detail off my suggestion last time around.   > $ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT Qi  > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "some text"E > %DCL-W-UNDFIL, file has not been opened by DCL - check logical namea  D Looks like an error message on SYS$ERROR telling you that SYS$OUTPUT is no longer open as a PPF.r   > $ show trans Q > $ show logical Q/ > %SHOW-F-WRITEERR, error writing SYS$OUTPUT:.;gE > -RMS-F-FAC, record operation not permitted by specified file accessd > (FAC)n  D Naturally you have some problems producing output when SYS$OUTPUT is broken.n  
 > Second try:t > 6 > $ create newsysoutput.log                           6 > time-stamp                                          6 > *EXIT*                                              6 > $ open/append newsysout newSysOutput.log            6 > $ define sys$output newsysout                       6 > %DCL-E-OPENOUT, error opening NEWSYSOUT:.; as output' > -RMS-F-RAT, invalid record attributesd  B Interesting.  I didn't manage to stumble over that one in testing.@ DCL likes to use VFC with print file carriage control.  Probably> we're getting into an interaction between that and the defaultD CREATE style files with variable length records and implied carriage control.   Here's one:r  ( $ OPEN TIMESTAMP NEWSYSOUTPUT.LOG /WRITE $ WRITE TIMESTAMP F$TIME() $ CLOSE TIMESTAMPt $h) $ OPEN NEWSYSOUT NEWSYSOUTPUT.LOG /APPEND9 $ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT NEWSYSOUTn" $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Hello, World!" $ CLOSE SYS$OUTPUT $ CLOSE NEWSYSOUT  $t $ TYPE NEWSYSOUTPUT.LOG  15-APR-2002 11:21:58.44u
 Hello, World!  $y  C So one way of proceeding would be to contrive for your C program toiC create the log file in VFC format with print file carriage control.tE Then DCL would be able to open and append to it with the trick that In
 suggested.  A Another way to proceed would be to bury the time stamp processingh into the detached process.  ? 	qiow write ( mailbox, 'define sys$Output "%s"', logfile-name )o; 	qiow write ( mailbox, 'write sys$output "%s"', timestamp )    	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:32:54 -0000b- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)i' Subject: Re: Rotted Link in OpenVMS FAQ,7 Message-ID: <91F16EE48warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>e  K mathog@caltech.edu (David Mathog) wrote in <3CB9D88B.A5503837@caltech.edu>:e   >Didier Morandi wrote: >> -? >> http://seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu/pub/software/openvms/mmail.comm >> h >mC >seqaxp is an alias for mendel.bio.caltech.edu - a Solaris machine.rE >When the VMS machine went away I moved the VMS software onto the FTPrH >server on the Unix box but that required the introduction of the "/pub"! >part which wasn't needed on VMS.. >.H >In any case FAQ maintainers need to check links fairly frequently since: >on average they only have a half life of something like 9 >months (if that long).r >n	 >Regards,C >a
 >David Mathogo >mathog@caltech.edue   Thank you Didier and David.o   ws     -- y   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)t The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:51:03 -0400b* From: Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com>0 Subject: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release8 Message-ID: <ntilbus5decpl0furcrfqei4ee7ue6ssiq@4ax.com>  C SIMH V2.9-5 was posted last night to http://simh.trailing-edge.com.mF It includes the first official release of the VAX.  The simulator can:  2 1) restore the starter system from the hobbyist CDB 2) run a full system installation using the starter system and the hobbyist CDi
 3) autogen! 4) reboot to the autogen'd systems0 5) runs some simple commands, including shutdown  6 Tim Stark and Kevin Handy found two show-stopper bugs:  F (Tim) Interrupts clear previous mode, rather than set previous mode to former current mode.C (Kevin) PROBEx uses only bits<1:0> of its argument, rather than the- entire argument.  B Thanks, Kevin and Tim, for tracing these bugs to their root cause.  E I am sure there are other bugs, but this seems like a good first stepr for wider use.   /Bob Supnik5   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:57:45 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>5. Subject: Subpoena issued to HP for informationE Message-ID: <ZLCu8.3559$SK1.388@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>e  L http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1018880383305235840,00.html?mod=special%5 Fpage%5Fhs%5Fhp%5Fcompaq%5F1  A H-P Says It Was Contacted by SEC Over Dealings With Deutsche Bankf& By DONNA FUSCALDO  DOW JONES NEWSWIRES  H Hewlett Packard Co. said Monday the San Francisco District office of theF Securities and Exchange Commission "informally" contacted the computerK maker, requesting documents and information concerning its relationship and G communications with Deutsche Bank AG. H-P also said that on April 10 itkD received a subpoena from the U.S. Attorney's Office for the SouthernH District of New York concerning the voting of Deutsche Bank and Northern Trust.  L In particular, the SEC asked for communications regarding H-P's solicitationI of votes from Deutsche Bank and affiliated parties in connection with its - proposed acquisition of Compaq Computer Corp.   I According to a statement by H-P, which was filed with the SEC, the agencynJ has "advised us that this inquiry should not be construed as an indicationL by the SEC or its staff that any violations of law have occurred, nor shouldD it be considered a reflection upon any person, entity, or security."  K After claiming early victory in its proxy battle to win shareholder support-L for its merger with Compaq, H-P has had to contend with a lawsuit, aiming to derail the combination.   K Walter Hewlett, son of one of the late co-founders and sole board member touL oppose the merger, launched a lawsuit in Delaware Chancery Court last month.  > In his suit, Mr. Hewlett alleges H-P pressured Deutsche Bank'sK asset-management unit to switch 17 million shares in favor of the deal. ThebJ suit alleges that H-P suggested Deutsche Bank could lose business with the' company if it voted against the merger..  D In a prepared statement Monday, H-P, Palo Alto, Calif., said it "hasH longstanding relationships with Deutsche Bank as well as with many otherD institutional shareowners. Some of them voted for the merger, othersI against, some split their votes and others changed their minds -- in botht directions."  B H-P, said in the statement it never acted "improperly" and remains@ optimistic that it can close the merger on its current schedule.  E Regarding the subpoena from the U.S. Attorney's Office, H-P said: "WepL understand that this inquiry is in response to press accounts concerning the4 vote on the merger proposal at the special meeting."   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Apr 2002 08:58:58 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: Survey on Your Alpha Hardware3 Message-ID: <pmxCt0xQViCS@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  c In article <ubjad3ktn5nc64@news.supernews.com>, "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:s
 > Hi everyoneh > H > Thought this was a good idea and ergo I am requesting this information > N > We are finding it quite difficult to target specific customer types with our0 > specials, so I thought I would ask all of you.  G    I tried.  Tried Mozilla 0.9.7 on my Alpha, got an up arrow or a downnC    arrow in a lot of scrollable windows, but not both so I couldn'tm    scroll to the best answer.f  A    Tried Netscape 6.2 on my Mac.  Got little tiny scrollbars that-    wouldn't scroll.r  D    Finally, in frustration, tried Explorer on my Mac.  Filled in theF    questions.  Submitted the survey (funny, how are they going to sendC    me that T-shirt when they didn't ask for a snail-mail address?).f?    Got a FrontPage error, now I know why I had to use Explorer.n  H    Somehow I don't think this really the way to attract Alpha customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:39:57 +0200i= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>s7 Subject: Re: Talk about quick response, regarding XalanM) Message-ID: <3CBACA1D.FA8B8A67@gtech.com>    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:de > In article <a91i8g$un2bc$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:-I > >The good news is that we have engineers assigned to XML, SOAP, and WebeK > >Services. The bad news is that right now we are porting the SOAP toolkit M > >from Apache. Updating the C++ and Java Xerces and Xalan components will be N > >next followed by UDDI. I suspect the availability for Xalan-C++ is late May > >or early June.o > M > Are the Engineers working on Apache 2.0 (released earlier this Month) whichi) > now supports threads ? And Tomcat 4.0 ?,  G It is not likely to be the same programmers doing XML/SOAP/WSDL/UDDI ass do Apache or Tomcat !   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:49:11 GMTt  From: Anamika <anamika@home.com>' Subject: Throughput and additional CPUsd4 Message-ID: <Xns91F18C95465D6anamika@207.181.101.12>   Hi, 3   I just want to sound out more people about this :hD We have a machine with a webserver and a webserver application that C protects "resources". Until last week there was certain throughput -7 whenever users accessed these resources from a browser.bJ Last week the admins added a second CPU and they expect the throughput to K double. I said that throughput cannot double because the whole transaction @E has a I/O part, N/W part, CPU part and adding a second CPU will only  K benefit the CPU part of the transaction. To actually double the throughput iI performance of the I/O part, N/W part also has to be increased (doubled).  It this logic correct ?r  A This is on OVMS 7.x, OSU server (which is not all that relevant).m   -A   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:35:02 -0500e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>> Subject: Vax 11/785rJ Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>  A Hi everybody.  Note that I have nothing to do with the following,oB except that I bought a Prime from these guys recently, and they're4 nice enough to hold it for me until I can move it ;)  B Well, that -- and I'd hate to see a VAX-11 go to scrap.  It looks ? like they're looking for enough to make it worth their while tom$ rescue the thing.  No idea how much.  < You can email Joe at  PPSJM _at_ prodigy dot net about this.  B Again, I know nothing about it, except that I couldn't' afford the@ money it would cost me to procure and move it right now, and I'd  rather it not get torn apart. :)   Chris"  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");a 'd    -----Original Message----- From: Joe Moir$ Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: Vax 11/785r     Hello,       I just wanted to throw this out and see if anybody has any interest. We have an opportunity to pick up a complete VAX11/785.{ With all the boards in it, it's actually worth a decent amount as scrap metal.   It is currently queued for the scrap heap.e I would buy it and resell it if anyone has an interest.  I guess if anyone is interested make me an offer and I'll see if it's worth it for me to pick it up.n  
 Thanks Joe     Joe Moir Peripheral Parts Support Phone-781-895-4892 Fax-781-895-4893 www.ppsparts.com   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Apr 2002 06:55:36 GMT' From: huw.davies@kerberos.davies.net.au(, Subject: Re: Who has (ever) used DECmigrate?O Message-ID: <40A79538D65713DF.82519824F47DA549.CCE3FD0F159C2ED4@lp.airnews.net>e  , Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote:  G > I VESTed a number of utilities and shareable images to jump-start our,J > migration from VAX to alpha.  Those have all been natively built by now.J > However, I did VEST a 3rd party product because the vendor was no longerC > producing a VMS version of the code - let alone an alpha version.5  J When our first alpha arrived at my former employer (I think this was 1992)I I spent a fruitful Friday afternoon installing VMS and clustering it withuL an 11/785. We had a public area which had lots of little useful applicationsJ (kermit, 6800 assembler, etc). I wrote a quick and dirty command procedureH to VEST all executables in this directory, thinking "next week I'll findI the sources and do this properly". When we decommissioned the box in 1997tF or so, the VESTed images were still there and as far as I know, no one had noticed. --  ? Huw Davies          | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.aum=                     | "If God had wanted soccer played in the5;                     | air, the sky would be painted green" c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:31:14 +01004T From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com>1 Subject: Re: Why VMS is "unhackable" lesson 1 ....& Message-ID: <3CBAF242.4050908@sun.com>   jlsue wrote:  G > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:38:40 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyr5 > <andrew_nospam.remove_this.harrison@sun.com> wrote:p >  >  >> >>jlsue wrote: >> >> > G >>>Well, I guess you could call that a bug.  But what it highlighted torF >>>me was the fact that *anyone* could write their own ping to exploitC >>>the same vulnerabilities.  The win32 ping just made it that muchP >>>easier for people.E >>>S >>>T >>> >>Of course you could write your own ping on win32 for example@ >>but why bother when you could say ping "horribly and illegally; >>large packet size" without ping complaining or truncatingS >>your packet. >> >> > G > Um... isn't that what I just said in the last sentence?  Did you even  > read that far? > B > But calling that a bug in ping is like blaming the breweries and! > distilleries for drunk driving.f >     E > Imho, the problem was in the TCP/IP stacks themselves - they should 9 > have truncated or rejected packets that were too large.Y >     8 Its a bug in both the stack and the ping program neither4 should allow the creation of an illegally large ICMP packet.    Regardss Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.208 ************************