1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 26 Apr 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 229       Contents: Re: $QIO and SYSPRV  Re: $QIO and SYSPRV  Re: $QIO and SYSPRV & Re: (GCC) GNU C/C++ compiler for Alpha; Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS ; Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS ; Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family 9 Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family  Re: AST question Re: AST question Re: AST question Re: AST question Re: AST question4 Re: creat function hanging -- Code snippet provided! Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS Re: download VMS' Re: EDIT/FDL changes colours in DECterm ' Re: EDIT/FDL changes colours in DECterm  Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE Re: EDT or EVE (TECO!)D Re: How to configure DECvms to connect 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN ModemD Re: How to configure DECvms to connect 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN Modem- Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!  IBM and aviation0 Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!0 Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!0 Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!0 Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!0 Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!/ Re: Itanium 2 hits ... Itanium 3 will be Alpha!  Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles Re: Itanium troubles LA310 config cheat sheet? > Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)> Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)1 Re: Mails with long lines (> 255 bytes) truncated ? Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer) ? Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer) ? Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer)  MSA1000 - Re: VMS 7.3-1 SDK? Re: Netscape and Mozilla Re: Netscape and Mozilla Re: Netscape and Mozilla Re: Netscape and Mozilla Re: Netscape and Mozilla Re: Netscape and Mozilla Network Delay?: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M> Re: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M> Re: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90MF Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively.J Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively.J Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively.P Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively. inter Re: Security question... Security question....  Re: Security question....   Re: Suggestion: SET DEVICE/RESET& Re: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipe& RE: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipe& Re: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipe" Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternative" Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternative" RE: VAXCLUSTER license alternative" Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternative$ VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company' Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.) ' Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.) ' Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.) ' Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.)  Re: web hosting  Re: web hosting  Re: web hosting  Re: web hosting  Re: web hosting  Re: web hosting # What does "affordable" mean to you?  What have I got here RE: What have I got here Re: What have I got here Re: What have I got here Re: What have I got here  Re: where can I find older DECC?  Re: where can I find older DECC?  RE: where can I find older DECC?1 Re: will memory leak program caused system crash? 1 Re: will memory leak program caused system crash?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:35:13 +0930 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>  Subject: Re: $QIO and SYSPRV. Message-ID: <3CC88BA9.5080902@wasd.vsm.com.au>  ! Thanks for your involvement Hoff.    Hoff Hoffman wrote: 
 8< snip 8<J >   ASTs are not particularly relevent, as only DECthreads (and then only I >   with the per-threads security enabled, and this is available only on  L >   recent OpenVMS releases) operate with privileges specific to the thread L >   of execution -- ASTs operate within process context, and either have or H >   do not have the privileges.  The ASTs do not preserve the privilege I >   context for later use, the privileges check(s) are made when the AST  	 >   runs. 
 8< snip 8<  2 Which privilege checks are made when the AST runs?H I'd say the privilege checks on what the AST code demands.  Now the AST H routine may be doing something totally unrelated to the processing that 
 triggered it. 5 What about privileges required for driver processing?   I I'm either being too obtuse in my explanations or in my understanding of  H the responses (or both I suppose).  I understand the AST routine is not L relevant, at least not to the intent of my question.  Let me try to clarify 4 (I won't pursue the point after this one last time).  K When an asynchronous $QIO is initiated does any required privilege need to  D *remain* enabled until the AST routine is *activated* (i.e. for the F duration of the driver handling the processing outside of the process D context), or once the asynchronous $QIO is initiated and returns to G initiating code can it be disabled immediately.  The latter is what my  < reading of McCoy's description of the XQP subsystem implies.  D  > In the chapter The XQP and I/O processing, section on $QIO SystemD  > Service Dispatching (page 271 in my copy) it actually states thatC  > blah-blah, the IRP is filled in, then *validated against process H  > privilege*, blah-blah, *then* the IRP is given to the driver.  So, myK  > reading of this would be that regardless of the $QIO (RMS) call I should G  > be able to disable a required privilege immediately the asynchronous D  > $QIO returns regardless of whether the operation is anywhere near#  > completion at that stage or not.   G Whether or not the AST routine requires any extended privileges is not  I relevant to my query.  It is whether the privilege required for the $QIO  L needs to remain enabled during the driver processing, which, if it requires A some truly asynchronous activity such as device I/O, may be some  ! (relatively) considerable period.   F I guess this can now be extended to RMS' use of $QIOs.  Do privileges H required for various RMS activities (such as file creation in otherwise F protected areas) need to remain enabled during the period between the H asynchronous service call and AST initiation?  If this is the case then F enabling an extended privilege for only a subset of all activities of K AST-driven code would need to prevent intervening (perhaps already queued)  K AST deliveries executing with that extended privilege, requiring some sort  E of serialization to be employed, blocking these deliveries until the  J privileged activity is complete.  The only way to provide this would seem J to be via a synchronous use of the service for that subset of activities. L This would imply that for this subset the application could not continue be H event-driven, it would stall for the duration of whatever that activity 	 required.   
 Thanks again.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 20:16:07 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: $QIO and SYSPRV3 Message-ID: <UQySHfYpIiKo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <3CC88BA9.5080902@wasd.vsm.com.au>, Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:  4 > Which privilege checks are made when the AST runs?J > I'd say the privilege checks on what the AST code demands.  Now the AST J > routine may be doing something totally unrelated to the processing that  > triggered it.   A Assuming one is using RMS rather than raw $QIO for opening files, @ the system services typically used at AST level are not the ones= affected by SYSPRV.  Checks against SYSPRV have to do with an = access to new objects but not for continued access to such an  object.   7 > What about privileges required for driver processing?   C VMS device drivers run in kernel mode and typically are not allowed E to call services that check privileges.  System services are intended % for code called from process context.   M > When an asynchronous $QIO is initiated does any required privilege need to  F > *remain* enabled until the AST routine is *activated* (i.e. for the H > duration of the driver handling the processing outside of the process F > context), or once the asynchronous $QIO is initiated and returns to I > initiating code can it be disabled immediately.  The latter is what my  > > reading of McCoy's description of the XQP subsystem implies.  D It depends on what you are doing in the AST routine, but rather thanH talk in the abstract how about some concrete examples of system servicesE requiring SYSPRV that might be called from your AST routines.  If you @ have too much code to analyze, try modifying all AST routines toA disable SYSPRV at the start of the AST routine and restore it (to - initial state, whatever that was) at the end.   I > Whether or not the AST routine requires any extended privileges is not  K > relevant to my query.  It is whether the privilege required for the $QIO  N > needs to remain enabled during the driver processing, which, if it requires C > some truly asynchronous activity such as device I/O, may be some  # > (relatively) considerable period.   E System service privilege checks are only at the start of the service. F By the time your user level code regains control it is safe to disable any such privilege.   H > I guess this can now be extended to RMS' use of $QIOs.  Do privileges J > required for various RMS activities (such as file creation in otherwise H > protected areas) need to remain enabled during the period between the J > asynchronous service call and AST initiation?  If this is the case then   
 Again, no.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:56:59 +0930 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>  Subject: Re: $QIO and SYSPRV. Message-ID: <3CC8ACE3.9080306@wasd.vsm.com.au>   Thanks again Larry. $ My regrets for labouring this point.   Larry Kilgallen wrote:b > In article <3CC88BA9.5080902@wasd.vsm.com.au>, Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes: >  > 4 >>Which privilege checks are made when the AST runs?J >>I'd say the privilege checks on what the AST code demands.  Now the AST J >>routine may be doing something totally unrelated to the processing that  >>triggered it.  >  > C > Assuming one is using RMS rather than raw $QIO for opening files, B > the system services typically used at AST level are not the ones? > affected by SYSPRV.  Checks against SYSPRV have to do with an ? > access to new objects but not for continued access to such an 	 > object.   C I was trying (unsucessfully it would appear) to be rhetorical here.   7 >>What about privileges required for driver processing?  >  > E > VMS device drivers run in kernel mode and typically are not allowed G > to call services that check privileges.  System services are intended ' > for code called from process context.   ( Yup.  I understand why this would be so.8 Drivers in any context tend to be *very* special beasts.  M >>When an asynchronous $QIO is initiated does any required privilege need to  F >>*remain* enabled until the AST routine is *activated* (i.e. for the H >>duration of the driver handling the processing outside of the process F >>context), or once the asynchronous $QIO is initiated and returns to I >>initiating code can it be disabled immediately.  The latter is what my  > >>reading of McCoy's description of the XQP subsystem implies. > F > It depends on what you are doing in the AST routine, but rather thanJ > talk in the abstract how about some concrete examples of system servicesG > requiring SYSPRV that might be called from your AST routines.  If you B > have too much code to analyze, try modifying all AST routines toC > disable SYSPRV at the start of the AST routine and restore it (to / > initial state, whatever that was) at the end.   L I think you've answered my question here, and again below.  My AST routines H do *not* require any enhanced privilege - only the $QIO service does to  perform what it needs to.   I >>Whether or not the AST routine requires any extended privileges is not  K >>relevant to my query.  It is whether the privilege required for the $QIO  N >>needs to remain enabled during the driver processing, which, if it requires C >>some truly asynchronous activity such as device I/O, may be some  # >>(relatively) considerable period.  >  > G > System service privilege checks are only at the start of the service. H > By the time your user level code regains control it is safe to disable > any such privilege.   3 That's exactly what I suspected and wanted to hear.   H >>I guess this can now be extended to RMS' use of $QIOs.  Do privileges J >>required for various RMS activities (such as file creation in otherwise H >>protected areas) need to remain enabled during the period between the J >>asynchronous service call and AST initiation?  If this is the case then  >    > Again, no.  	 Terrific.   J No slight intended Larry - any one care to give me second opinion on this?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:40:47 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) / Subject: Re: (GCC) GNU C/C++ compiler for Alpha 1 Message-ID: <3cc8694c.116058473@news.process.com>   6 On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:56:42 -0400, Charlie McCutcheon, <charlie.mccutcheon@NOSPAMcompaq.com> wrote:   >Fabio Becherini wrote:  >  >> Hi folks, >>/ >> We have OpenVMS V7.2 running in some Alphas, 8 >> and now we are looking for a (GCC) GNU C/C++ compiler >> for these machines. >>' >> Does anyone have a solution for it ?  >> >> Best regards !  > G >Perahps try http://gcc.gnu.org/ .   I didn't look far enough to see if  >they have a download for VMS. > : A mirror of the ProGIS port can be found on ftp.tmk.com in= [.VMS-FREEWARE.GCC-FOR-ALPHA].  It's not perfect, but it was, 0 AFAIK, the only GCC ever done for OpenVMS Alpha.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/< New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:16:03 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>D Subject: Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS0 Message-ID: <TBYx8.344$W3.11397@typhoon.bart.nl>  K Is there a way to boot VMS directly from a distribution CD when running the  simulator on a W98 box?   2 Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message news:3CC699E7.372@vcn.bc.ca... > Bob Supnik wrote: H > > Found the bug that was causing integer overflow in SDL installation.J > > In EDIV, if divisor and dividend had different signs, and the quotient/ > > was 0, the test for overflow was incorrect.  > > < > > Both this and the CASEL fix are released as 2.9-6 today. >  > Wonderful!B > This morning, I booted up NetBSD so I could "dd" the VMS InstallI > CD to a file, rebooted into MS-Windows-98, started a DOS BOX, ran SIMH, H > loaded the file, ran standalone backup to retrieve VMS061.B, installed2 > VMS, loaded License PAKs, and HEY! HEY! HEY! ...& > I'm running VMS 6.1 under MSWindoze! > J > Unfortunately, it feels like I'm doing something perverse and dirty.  SoF > I immediately ran downstairs to my basement where I booted up a real > VAX.  I feel much better now.  > J > now, if you could get some DELQA emulation running, I'd be set for life. > :-)  > F > Thanks Bob for all of the hard work you've put into the VAX & PDP-11 > parts 
 > of SIMH! >  > Thomas Dzubin    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:16:45 +0000 (UTC)  From: dzubint@vcn.bc.ca D Subject: Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS. Message-ID: <aaa9ps$8s5$1@news3.cadvision.com>  E I don't think so.  I tried, but Windoze doesn't understand the formatMD of the CD.  If SIMH could talk directly to the hardware, it probablyB could work, but I think for now, the intermediate step of making aC container file with the contents of the CD is the only way to do it  from MS operating systems.  H From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>   Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:16:03 GMTM  >Is there a way to boot VMS directly from a distribution CD when running ther  >simulator on a W98 box?F  >S  >Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message news:3CC699E7.372@vcn.bc.ca...i  >> Wonderful!D  >> This morning, I booted up NetBSD so I could "dd" the VMS InstallK  >> CD to a file, rebooted into MS-Windows-98, started a DOS BOX, ran SIMH,sJ  >> loaded the file, ran standalone backup to retrieve VMS061.B, installed4  >> VMS, loaded License PAKs, and HEY! HEY! HEY! ...(  >> I'm running VMS 6.1 under MSWindoze!   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 03:55:01 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>D Subject: Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS+ Message-ID: <aaaj2l0cmm@enews1.newsguy.com>   2 In alt.sys.pdp10 Hans Vlems <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:M > Is there a way to boot VMS directly from a distribution CD when running the3 > simulator on a W98 box?m  L My guess is you'd first have to make an image of the CD, and then mount that image.   		Zane   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 11:02:54 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)B Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204251002.46cb65c3@posting.google.com>I  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<ur1gcush4c4qsv42jm7vll5s59pc8bqlue@4ax.com>...cC > On 25 Apr 2002 05:28:42 -0700, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)o > wrote: > K > >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<aVKx8.170816  > > H > >why would Intel want to play second fiddle to AMD or Power or anybodyE > >when they have the chip that would put them number one?  I predictoG > >Intel will drop the Epic boat anchor and eventually, if not already, F > >use the Alpha engineers to continue to develop EV8, and then marketC > >it ... why be number two, or just compete when you can smoke theM > H > There would have been a time when Intel could have done this but if itH > was to drop EPIC now where would that leave HP? Where would that leaveB > al the OEMs who have thrown money at IA64? Do you think MS wouldE > resurrect Alpha support in Windows? Absolutely nothing hinted at byoH > anbody at all indicates that Intel intends to resurrect Alpha. I don't> > even think it has the right to do so even if it wanted to asH > intellectual ownership of Alpha remains with Compaq. Capellas was veryD > specific about that at the original joint announcement with Intel.F > Intel could only resurrect EV8 after further agreements with Compaq.F > Do you really think Compaq can go back to its customers now and tellA > them "forget everything we said. Alpha is the future not IA64"?o >   B well looks like this may be the start of it, and I wonder what the 2005E inflection point is that the inquirer reported on?  the beginnings ofT EV8?  ! Intel to call McKinley Itanic 2? n   Is it hitting the icebergs? & By Mike Magee, 25/04/2002 15:52:17 BST  F A NUMBER OF ASIAN SITES are claiming that Intel will call the McKinleyD processor the Itanium 2, with a few sites having pictures of the new logo.eC According to the reports, the logo was shown at the Intel Developer  Forum in Asia.  = Intel in Germany sent out a release today confirming that thev' processor will be called the Itanium 2.e  F We first saw these reports on VR-Zone, but a number of other sites areC also carrying pictures such as: Prom Alphaloop, Gzeasy, and PC Pop.   C There's not much more to say - it's what Intel has gone and done toy@ the name of the chip that Nico Ernst from tec channel dubbed the
 McMonster.  A The only thought that occurs to us is that as the McKinley is the E Itanic 2, doesn't that imply that the first Itanic hit the iceberg...sB and sank? Intel is now having two goes with this processor family. Will it be third time lucky?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:51:29 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>sB Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family, Message-ID: <3CC85E3C.BF566DA3@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote: H > There would have been a time when Intel could have done this but if it2 > was to drop EPIC now where would that leave HP?   L I am sure Intel would gladly continue to fab IA64 chips for HP, and HP couldL repatriate its engineers to continus work on IA64. Gee, that would make IA64@ in the exact same position of Alpha under Compaq :-) ;-) ;-) :-)  * What a big mistake it was to murder Alpha.     > Where would that leave, > al the OEMs who have thrown money at IA64?  L Except for HP and Intel who else has thrown big money and bet its company onN IA64 ?  Hasn't SGI abandonned its plans to put all its eggs in IA64's basket ?  M The way I see it, IA64 is HP's proprietary chip. And HP is trying to convince E us that IA64 is industry standard because it needs to do some seriousrK brainwahsing to convince other computer manufacturers to start to use IA64.o  K Now, had Digital started to claim that Alpha was "industry standard" in theuO arly 1990s, would it have had a better chance at making Alpha more widespread ?n  H > anbody at all indicates that Intel intends to resurrect Alpha. I don't> > even think it has the right to do so even if it wanted to as6 > intellectual ownership of Alpha remains with Compaq.  H Compaq had made the point that it was a non-exclusive agreement and thatM anyone was welcome to get Alpha technologies. Intel may not have ownership of1N Alpha, but I think it has right to use. It may entail some small token royalty3 payments to the owner of the IP (currently Compaq).   H Now, with HP buying Compaq, HP gains the intellectual property rights ofI Alpha. HP is a major stakeholder in IA64. I doubt very much that HP woulde< allow the stillborn adopted Alpha to hurt its own baby IA64.  F > Do you really think Compaq can go back to its customers now and tellA > them "forget everything we said. Alpha is the future not IA64"?x  H If Compaq were interested in pushing those systems that generate profitsL instead of Wintel crap, the yes, Compaq should go back and re-instate Alpha.? Look at how well Alpha sold considering it is a dead platform ?   / Imagine if Compaq actually marketed the thing ?a  D Another issue. If the HP takeover of Compaq fails, and *IF* Compaq'sL management gets a huge change, the perhaps it might be possible to see AlphaL re-instated with Compaq keeping the EV7 team and hoping to build from there.K (EV8 team was already sold as slaves to Intel, so not sure Compaq could get  them back).   M We could look back at the previous year as just a nightmare starring Capellas  and Winkler.    C Ok, I know the above is not very likely, but one can dream, right ?h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:16:57 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>lB Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family, Message-ID: <3CC86433.E4D8E12B@videotron.ca>   Peter Watkinson wrote:H > Our sources also allege that top Microsoft decision makers view x86-64E > as the clearly superior solution over IA64, an underperforming VLIWt* > architecture widely judged as Byzantine.  M There might be some strategy in this.  Dell stated that it is only interestede in high volume chips.lG Remove Dell from the IA64-Windows equation, and that doesn't leave manye vendors selling IA64-Windows.e  N Make IA64 irrelevant, and that leaves only HP using IA64 as a proprietary chipJ for its Unix offerings. Now,  if HP wants to compete against Dell, will itH really be pitching anything on the low volume, expesive IA64, or will HP@ prefer to sell windows on Hammer/8086s to compete against Dell ?  N Remember that Gates sees Unix as a true competitor.  Linux may be cheaper, butG it probably is on a level playing field in terms of fancy features. ButeM proprietary Unixes, especially if HP-Unix gains the Tru64 clustering would bet. a serious technological competitor to windows.  G Marginalise those superior OSs by making sure they run on a proprietaryiA expensive chip, and you've just gained a lot of market potential.l    N In a sense, HP would have been better off NOT buying Compaq (but somehow stillA convincing Compaq to ditch Alpha and put all its eggs in the IA64eK wastebasket), because this way, IA64 would be seen as more of a success andiL having some market leadership instead of just some HP proprietary chip which) it will become once HP gobbles up Compaq.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:09:16 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>B Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family4 Message-ID: <1020425200552.334B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bill Todd wrote:    > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3CC7903E.BD91D257@videotron.ca... >  > ...t > J > > Unless the Digital engineers were sold as slaves to Intel, there is no	 > tellingYI > > how many will stay with Intel. (or how long they will stay).   Shoulda > InteltM > > decide to revive Alpha, it would take a long time to rebuild the team andi > get $ > > EV8 up and running as a project. > H > They reportedly got the team pretty much intact (I heard that only oneJ > engineer to whom an offer was made didn't accept it - because the offersK > were quite attractive).  But unless they had a secret plan right from theiN > start to continue work on EV8 (the likelihood of which I place out in OliverN > Stone territory), they couldn't get it out before 2005 - about the same dateK > they could get out an Itanic with on-chip glue that would likely get thempJ > back into the higher-end 64-bit game if they can just hold on until then3 > with the sub-par McKinley/Madison/Montecito line.  > I > And since that 2005 date would be for the existing EV8 design - running M > Alpha instructions and using Alpha chip interfaces rather than being in anyaI > way compatible with existing Itanic software and surrounding hardware -sN > going with the glue-improved Itanic instead is a *lot* more attractive, evenJ > if the result isn't the leadership product that EV8 would have been.  IfH > they want something like an EV8 core executing Itanic instructions andK > talking to Itanic support hardware, that pushes them out at least anothercK > year - and the question then becomes whether the very real advantages EV8TJ > would have had if released in 2004 (as Compaq planned) would still be asN > important 2 - 3 years later (when the Itanic core, inefficient as it may be,D > may be small enough that several can be placed on a single chip) -G > especially if executing an instruction set less closely-suited to the  > hardware.V > M > So, again, unless Intel had right from the start a secret plan to adopt theaM > entire Alpha architecture - instruction set, support chips, etc. - into its M > product set, thus having *three* mainstream general-purpose processor linesM"                            ^^^^^^^ > (IA32, Itanic, and Alpha) ( *four* (IA32, Itanic, Alpha and Yamhill)  7      in addition to embedded processors like StrongARM,oN > Alpha has lost at least a couple of years of lead in all this, and since itsM > technical lead was really all it had to work with losing it likely means itdI > is well and truly toast.  Unless Hammer somehow disintegrates (which isuN > looking less and less likely, now that they have real working silicon out toM > partners), then it, and Yamhill, will likely occupy most of the market thatiK > Itanic was originally targeted for, leaving Itanic at best in a niche forlD > high-end users who can't afford POWER.  Whether that will generateF > sufficient volume to make it worthwhile for Intel (and Microsoft) to8 > continue to support it is the main remaining question. >  > - bill   -- s John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:51:45 GMTA$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org>B Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family. Message-ID: <Bw1y8.128054$G72.79013@sccrnsc01>  > "Jerry Leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message3 news:gqzx8.8088$d17.330533@typhoon.austin.rr.com...e? >    http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/3125309.htme  >    Mercury News | 04/23/2002 |: >    AMD to announce Microsoft support for new chip family  G And how is this relevant to VMS?  This is an obvious post for a WindowseA related newsgroup, and an obvious violation of the guidelines foruG comp.os.vms.  Not to mention an obvious copyright violation posting the > entire article to a newsgroup, very likely without permission.  
     .../Ed   -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:14:19 GMTu* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family@ Message-ID: <LR1y8.15015$fg.1678899@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  / "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote in messageg( news:Bw1y8.128054$G72.79013@sccrnsc01...@ > "Jerry Leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message5 > news:gqzx8.8088$d17.330533@typhoon.austin.rr.com...-A > >    http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/3125309.htm-" > >    Mercury News | 04/23/2002 |< > >    AMD to announce Microsoft support for new chip family > I > And how is this relevant to VMS?  This is an obvious post for a Windows1C > related newsgroup, and an obvious violation of the guidelines forr > comp.os.vms.  L Wrong.  The question of whether Microsoft would support Hammer is definitelyI significant in estimating what Itanic's chance for survival is.  Now thatwF Compaq has hitched VMS's wagon to the Itanic black hole, that's *very* relevant to VMS.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:08:09 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eB Subject: Re: AMD To Announce Microsoft Support For New Chip Family, Message-ID: <3CC8D2A9.5893CEEE@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:N > Wrong.  The question of whether Microsoft would support Hammer is definitelyK > significant in estimating what Itanic's chance for survival is.  Now thattH > Compaq has hitched VMS's wagon to the Itanic black hole, that's *very* > relevant to VMS.     Is it ?   J VMS is just going from one proprietary low volume chip to another one. AndL even if only HP uses IA64, it will still have higher volume than Alpha had.   M The biggest problem for VMS is that it used to have better survival due to itsI being on a better processor.  But once customers are forced to move to an W inferior processor, VMS will be at a much greater disadvantage compared to competitors.9  N Now, perhaps someone can chime in here: Could VMS run on Hammer ? Could Tandem run on Hammer ?SL Does Hammer have the architectural stuff to support those 2 OS ? (sufficientI memory modes, lockstep etc).  If VMS and Tandem can't run on Hammer,  but L Hammer kills IA64 for mainstream use, than VMS and Tandem will be much worse( off on the slow IA64, compared to Alpha.  L If IA64 flops, will HP want to continue to fund it in the long term just forO VMS and Tandem ? Where could VMS and Tandem go if IA64 is abandonned ? Nowhere.,  N Capellas should be shot for murdering Alpha, and more importantly donating theK Digital compiler engineers to Intel before IA64 was a success. What is morepK important to Capellas ? Ensuring your company's future, or pleasing Intel ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:34:45 GMTl0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) Subject: Re: AST questions9 Message-ID: <3cc8496a.1121278252@proxy.news.easynews.com>-  8 On 25 Apr 2002 10:54:29 GMT, vanja@vmsbox.cjb.net wrote:  E >After reading a bit of OpenVMS documentation, it is my understandingmE >that ASTs are similar (remotely, but still 'similar' :) to 'signals'a	 >on UNIX.s   [and a lot more]  B Signals are the closest UNIX equivalent to VMS's ASTs, but, as you# say, they're only remotely similar.M  @ You can think of a VMS process as having 1 and 1/2 threads.  The% 1/2 thread is stuff going on in ASTs.e  C The intended use of ASTs is as a mechanism to asynchronously notify C a process of events of interest.  Various VMS system services (mostn@ particularly, the timer and I/O services) have the capability ofE notifying the process of completion of the event (timer has gone off; ? I/O operation has completed) either by setting an event flag ornD calling a user-specified routine as an AST.  The services themselves; are non-blocking (unless you use the "W" form, which blocksV< until the service completes, e.g., $QIOW (queue input/output= request and wait) versus $QIO (queue input/output request and  continue)).r  7 When the operation completes, the routine you specified E is called as an AST, interrupting whatever the process might be doing-F (AST delivery can be turned off to protect critical sections, in whichB case the AST remains pending and is delivered when ASTs are turnedF back on again).  When the AST routine returns, the main process thread> of control takes up from where it was when it was interrupted.  @ This isn't quite like multithreading because only one AST can be< outstanding at a time, and the AST thread of control doesn'tB time-share with the main thread of control--the main thread blocks? until the AST routine returns.  It's more like the "cooperative 0 multi-threading" that 16-bit Windows had on PCs.  A For the application you're talking about, I think you're probablya better off using real threads.    ? In answer to your other question, $CREPRC is unlike UNIX fork()t? because $CREPRC gives you a completely new process.  It doesn'toB inherit address space and I/O channels from its creator, as is the case with fork() on UNIX."  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:30:56 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>v Subject: Re: AST questionh, Message-ID: <3CC8596D.ED9D3AC8@videotron.ca>   vanja@vmsbox.cjb.net wrote:uF > After reading a bit of OpenVMS documentation, it is my understandingF > that ASTs are similar (remotely, but still 'similar' :) to 'signals'
 > on UNIX.  C This of an AST as an "interrupt routine", or a "completion routine"   M For instance, when doing a READ SYS$QIO, you can instruct the $QIO routine totH return immediatly to your program and trigger an AST routine when the IO actually completes.u  M For instance, while your program may be waiting for input from a serial port,tM it can do other stuff, but as soon as the input from the serial port arrives, J the AST routine you specified is triggered, interrupting whetever you wereN doing before. Once the AST completes, what you were doing before resumes where it left off.  N Another way, which is perhaps closer to the unix Signal is to use event flags.N Instead of asking SYS$QIO to call an AST routine at completion, you can ask it to set an event flag.a  I And in your program you can do stuff and periodically check to see if the, event flag has been set.  J OR, you could queue a bunch of stuff to be done, each with their own eventN flag, and then wait patiently for any of those flags to be set, at which pointH you check which flag was set and take approriate actions. This method is) closer to the "event loop" many GUIs use.   K But the AST , in my opinion, is far more elegant and allows simpler coding.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:56:07 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r Subject: Re: AST questioni, Message-ID: <3CC85F53.C573F99A@videotron.ca>  G While much has been said about how "expensive" a subprocess is, if yourtC application is to run continusously, you can then leave a couple ofhN subrprocesses around waiting for the master process to give them a task to do,* at which point it becomes quite efficient.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:31:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: Re: AST questionn, Message-ID: <3CC867AA.65312D36@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote:lP > AST routines are not jobs, they are to signal an event, such as the completion5 > of async work.  Don't do your work in AST routines.e  M You might as well just use event flags then if you do not want to do any worke inside of an AST..  M The nice thing about ASTs is that VMS provides a natural queue of tasks to be F done for you, in whatever order they happen to be. Perhaps no priorityD mechanism to deliver ASTs, but as long as no AST  pauses to wait for  something, it works really well.  L It is true that I would not want to be decoding a 50meg file while inside anM AST. That is work best done by the AST signalling to the mainline that it hasiW a big task do perform. (and while that task executes, it allows other ASTs to execute).    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 2002 19:10 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)I Subject: Re: AST questiont- Message-ID: <25APR200219103578@gerg.tamu.edu>e   vanja@vmsbox.cjb.net writes...E }After reading a bit of OpenVMS documentation, it is my understandingaE }that ASTs are similar (remotely, but still 'similar' :) to 'signals'e	 }on UNIX.r  7 Thing of them as user programmable software interrupts.l  D }During an execution of some for(;;) loop (for example), AST routineH }can be invoked (for whatever reason), and when routine is done with itsF }work, execution control is returned to the function that invoked AST. } ' }That means that ASTs are blocking, no?t  1 Mostly, aside from ASTs operating in other modes.C  F }The project I want to 'port' to OpenVMS could use the technique which$ }was suggested to me, and goes like: } / }task1: does a bit, then queues task2 as an astl/ }task2: does a bit, then queues task3 as an astiD }task3: does a bit then deallocates the structures for that client.  } A }Now - working this way would make things look like they're beingpD }executed in sync, but in reality, they're not. Problem is that thisG }tool will be doing some virus scanning. Now, until the point of actualaH }scanning, everything is fine. But when a routine is invoked that has toG }scan 15MB ZIP archive, it's going to take a while, and all other tasks", }will be blocked while scanning is going on.  C Doing your actual work in an AST is generally not considered a gooda? thing. You also have to be careful when doing I/O at AST level.l  F }As an example - SYS$EXAMPLES:DB_SERVER.C shows usage of ASTs. For theJ }sake of example, let's assume that process_request() has sleep(30) in it.? }Would it mean that everything would be blocked for 30 seconds?   G No. In DB_SERVER.C the process_request() routine is not an AST routine.hA It is run in the main line of code execution, called in a loop in A the main() routine to process data pulled off the LIVE_QUE queue. A Putting the sleep in there would stop the main line of code whilen@ it slept, but all the AST routines could still fire and put moreB stuff onto the queues and enqueue new IO operations, or accept new" connections, or close connections.  G As I recall, the main (only?) things that are done at AST level in thatoE program is that each I/O operation fires of an AST that puts a buffernI into the appropriate queue (the "to be processed" queue, called LIVE_QUE,tG or the "done with it" queue, called FREE_QUE) and enqueue a new I/O via4E SYS$QIO if appropriate, or to do the necessary steps to open or close  a network conection.  I }So, does it mean I should skip ASTs, and look at another alternative? :)i  D It is not usually a very good plan to do a lot of stuff in AST mode.  E }Also - I've played with sys$creprc a bit, and I also realized that IlF }can't actually use it either. Problem is that 'parent' process has toJ }initialize virus patterns, and keep them in memory all the time. There isE }a function (let's call it "scan_file") which then takes advantage ofsK }patterns being already loaded in memory, and does the actual file scanningsF }very quickly (as opposed to having to initialize virus patterns everyH }time a scan is required). Having each 'child' initialize virus patternsE }beats the purpose of making this tool then, since one could just useo. }scanning tool supplied by Sophos (AV vendor). } F }It is my understanding that a process created with sys$creprc can notD }access to data that was 'initialized' by the parent. Is that right?  B It is wrong. Look up "global sections". These are chunks of shared5 memory. Multiple processes can read (and write) them.e  C You can have the "main" program crate a global section and load the ? data into it. Then it can create worker processes which map theH= section to access the data. Beware of synchronization issues,p? such as having multiple writers (whcih you probably don't need)2? and dealing with the issue of what to do with the workers whileD> the data is updated (having them pause activity and then start> over from the beginning of the run may be the easiest for what you describe above).  D See the system service routines $CRMPSC and $MGBLSC, amongst others.  ? }Does it mean that using threads would be the only solution? :)D  @ No, but it is a solution. It may even be an increasingly popularC solution - a lot of people know about threads, and they work pretty " much the same on VMS as elsewhere.   }Vanja   --- Carl   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:32:44 +0000 (UTC)j% From: John Forkosh <john@invalid.com>m= Subject: Re: creat function hanging -- Code snippet provided!a, Message-ID: <aa9i4c$5s0$1@reader1.panix.com>  - Jeffrey Cameron <bubbapig@hotmail.com> wrote:h : Actually you can ...@ : it works fine for the 5000+ other files I have run through it.; Are you sure?  Do a dir/full on the files creat-ed that way : and see if the mrs is what you'd expected, or if it's some "pseudo-random" number.c>      For it to work like you want, the creat() call would have@ to be interpretative/interpreted at runtime, which I'm doubting.7 Otherwise, the string "mrs=length*4+4" just gets passedt> to creat(), which can't have any idea how to handle your local: variable `length', even if creat() is willing to parse and! evaluate expressions in its args.t5      But, I've never actually tried what you did, so, 9 like I said originally, just guessing.  I'm also guessingrC that your dir/full's won't look right vis-a-vis mrs, and apparently A once in a while the weird arg blows the program out of the water.e  4 : I'll give it a try though, it sure can't hurt! :-)' Please follow up with outcome.  Thanks.s  ( : John Forkosh <john@invalid.com> wrote:1 : > Jeffrey Cameron <bubbapig@hotmail.com> wrote:l; : > : I would like to thank you all for your advice so far.l : >   7 : > : The syntax I am passing to the creat function is f : >  aK : > : filedesc = creat(temp, 0777, "alq=36", "mrs=length*4+4", "ctx=xplct",i : > : "rfm=var");i : > = : > I'm guessing you can't do arithmetic in "mrs=length*4+4".e : > Try this instead:l : >  : > char mrs_string[99];, : > sprintf(mrs_string,"mrs=%d",length*4+4);O : > filedesc = creat(temp, 0777, "alq=36", mrs_string, "ctx=xplct", "rfm=var");t   -- i= John Forkosh ( emailto: j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:27:33 +0000 (UTC)l From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: download VMS + Message-ID: <aa9hql$e49$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   _ In article <aa9c5f$odd$1@wilson.uits.indiana.edu>, bdwheele@indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) writes:w3 >In article <3cc82bbb.16519531@news.cable.ntl.com>,o9 >	peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes:k >> e >> Hi, >> iI >> I was wondering if it would be a good idea for Compaq (HP?) to let you H >> download VMS through the internet. Particularly the Hobbyist version.H >> With Linux and BSD it so easy to download and install via FTP so longE >> as you have a fast connection. I don't think it would be neccesaryvI >> with windows as a 5min drive to the local PC world can pick up a copy.p; >> Could be a good idea to bring VMS into the 21st century.  >> S >>   >> n >> Peter Watkinson  >> peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com >-K >I think it would be great, especially if they included some of the layeredtH >products.  Since you have to have a license anyway to use the binaries,< >making the media freely available can't hurt license sales. >  >Brian  I Many of the people in this newsgroup including myself have argued for the.I layered products to be made available for download from the web for ages.iM Unfortunately, with a few welcome exceptions such as the C++ kits, Compaq hasM always resisted.M However I think this is the first time I've heard of anyone suggesting Compaq N put the OS itself up on the web. It's not a bad idea - after all if Sun can do it why not Compaq ?     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:22:09 +0000 (UTC)o1 From: sssslewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)- Subject: Re: download VMS . Message-ID: <aa9ohh$ag5$2@newslocal.mitre.org>   Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes in article <Ajx7BvFZsEAu@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 25 Apr 2002 15:03:13 -0500:8G >Please explain how to boot from the distribution medium for standalonei >backup.   1.  Download image.. 2.  Burn CD. 3.  Boot CD.    That's how I got Linux for free.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org5> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 15:03:13 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)w Subject: Re: download VMS 3 Message-ID: <Ajx7BvFZsEAu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <3cc82bbb.16519531@news.cable.ntl.com>, peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes:  H > I was wondering if it would be a good idea for Compaq (HP?) to let youG > download VMS through the internet. Particularly the Hobbyist version.qG > With Linux and BSD it so easy to download and install via FTP so longtD > as you have a fast connection. I don't think it would be neccesaryH > with windows as a 5min drive to the local PC world can pick up a copy.: > Could be a good idea to bring VMS into the 21st century.  F Please explain how to boot from the distribution medium for standalone backup.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:42:04 GMTi5 From: peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)a Subject: Re: download VMSh2 Message-ID: <3cc86867.32051750@news.cable.ntl.com>  F On 25 Apr 2002 15:03:13 -0500, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  k >In article <3cc82bbb.16519531@news.cable.ntl.com>, peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes:a >dI >> I was wondering if it would be a good idea for Compaq (HP?) to let youuH >> download VMS through the internet. Particularly the Hobbyist version.H >> With Linux and BSD it so easy to download and install via FTP so longE >> as you have a fast connection. I don't think it would be neccesaryoI >> with windows as a 5min drive to the local PC world can pick up a copy.e; >> Could be a good idea to bring VMS into the 21st century.o >mG >Please explain how to boot from the distribution medium for standaloner >backup.  C To be honest I don't know too much about the VMS install procedure.e? But I have an Alpha sitting here ready for an install. To get acB hobbyist license seems like quite a lot of trouble and longwinded.? When I can directly install Free BSD or Linux straight over thee4 internet using FTP without even having to burn a CD.  E Seems to me you could buy a license from Compaq(HP) using your credit C card. And then receive a license number. Download some sort of bootn> floppy (is that possible) then using the boot media set up the- download via some sort of secure ftp address.m  C Seems like it's possible with Linux. I for one wouldn't mind payings6 for VMS (Hobbyist license please) if it were possible.       Peter Watkinson1 peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:18:56 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: Re: download VMSs, Message-ID: <3CC872B6.E35DE09F@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:H > Please explain how to boot from the distribution medium for standalone	 > backup.n  N Humm, perhaps a simple ROM upgrade would allow all older vaxes to send a BOOTPG request to a specific address that would be at HP ? So you'd be bootingy& standalone backup over the internet...  % then, youd'd issue a command such as aB BACKUP/IMAGE ftp://ftp.service.hp.com/vms/vaxvms073.b/save dka200:    N Seriously though, while you have a good point for initila loading of VMS, onceM you have it on a machine, getting the upgrade kits from the internet would iniM fact be very good. I think that HP could view this as a quality control issue"F with all the hobbysist geeks finding little errors here and there thus0 resulting in a more robust VMS operating system.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:51:01 GMTh* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> Subject: Re: download VMSe) Message-ID: <3CC8872B.4030207@compaq.com>    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:e  K > Many of the people in this newsgroup including myself have argued for theuK > layered products to be made available for download from the web for ages. O > Unfortunately, with a few welcome exceptions such as the C++ kits, Compaq hase > always resisted.  D Yeah that bothers me also.  I've asked many times about letting you B download the Pascal kit from the Pascal web page.  But it is like D talking in a sound-proof room, I ask but hear nothing.  Many of the G compiler teams have placed kits online for ftp-download in response to hH bug reports, etc. but I do find it odd that we don't/can't get past the F bureaucracy to do it publically.  I think the C++ kits are "under the J radar" and if they find out (whoever 'they' are), the kits will disappear. -- o John Reaganr' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadero   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:30:15 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: download VMS J Message-ID: <rdeininger-2504022130150001@1cust93.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  2 In article <3cc86867.32051750@news.cable.ntl.com>,6 peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:  D >To be honest I don't know too much about the VMS install procedure.@ >But I have an Alpha sitting here ready for an install. To get aC >hobbyist license seems like quite a lot of trouble and longwinded.o@ >When I can directly install Free BSD or Linux straight over the5 >internet using FTP without even having to burn a CD.e >nF >Seems to me you could buy a license from Compaq(HP) using your creditD >card. And then receive a license number. Download some sort of boot? >floppy (is that possible) then using the boot media set up the . >download via some sort of secure ftp address.  @ Licensing and installation are not particularly related for VMS.  G It seems quite feasible to sell license PAKs via phone, web, etc. usinghA any of the trendy, modern payment methods.  PAKs can be (and are)aF delivered by email.  If someone convinces the product management folksD this is a good idea, I doubt it would be difficult to implement.  (II haven't tried it, but I suspect you could pay for VMS licenses today with H a credit card.  I don't think Compaq currently delivers PAKs via email.)  G You can boot an alpha system from a floppy (assuming it's a system withcD console support for the floppy drive), but you can't boot VMS from aJ floppy, because it won't fit.  On alpha, the installation kit is currently near the capacity of a CD.  I The VMS alpha installation procedure currently depends on a random-access:J installation device.  FTP wouldn't work without copying the kit to a localJ disk.  Changing the installer to work with a sequential (network, magtape,J ...) medium does not seem particularly simple.  Nonsimple projects are not= likely to happen in the absence of Perceived Customer Demand.s  D >Seems like it's possible with Linux. I for one wouldn't mind paying7 >for VMS (Hobbyist license please) if it were possible.-  E Hobbyist licenses are free for Encompass members and are delivered iniJ minutes via email.  VMS installation CDs are available for about $15 bucksB from Compaq, and typically arrive in less than a week.  Making VMSI installation easier and cheaper than this for non-revenue customers seemsa unlikely, IMHO.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:56:16 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n Subject: Re: download VMSo' Message-ID: <3CC8C4A4.AA58D7CC@fsi.net>e   Peter Watkinson wrote: >  > Hi,w > H > I was wondering if it would be a good idea for Compaq (HP?) to let youG > download VMS through the internet. Particularly the Hobbyist version.w  G Well, technically, there is no "Hobbyist version". VMS is VMS. The onlyiE determining factor is in the terms of the license and how you get it.l  G > With Linux and BSD it so easy to download and install via FTP so longaD > as you have a fast connection. I don't think it would be neccesaryH > with windows as a 5min drive to the local PC world can pick up a copy.: > Could be a good idea to bring VMS into the 21st century.  = I know some try to make a good argument against such an idea.t  F At this stage, with VMS foundering, I believe it would be a good idea,B especially as part of massive turn-around effort to revive VMS andF restore it to the popularity and profitability it once enjoyed - which/ is very unlikely to ever happen in my lifetime.i   -- n David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:10:49 -0400p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: download VMSu, Message-ID: <3CC8D349.C82EA974@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote: I > You can boot an alpha system from a floppy (assuming it's a system withaF > console support for the floppy drive), but you can't boot VMS from aL > floppy, because it won't fit.  On alpha, the installation kit is currently > near the capacity of a CD.  K Doesn't  the VAX STABACKIT.COM support multiple floppy support ? I've neversM actually tried this, maybe I should. ( I realise that stabackit doesn't existe for alpha though).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:09:37 -0700 " From: Brad Hughes <brad@tgsmc.com>0 Subject: Re: EDIT/FDL changes colours in DECterm$ Message-ID: <3CC8B6E1.906@tgsmc.com>   Phillip Helbig wrote:a  J > A standard-colour DECterm changes to black background, white foreground I > during EDIT/FDL and is not reset after exiting.  Is this a known bug?  t* > (VMS 7.3, most stuff rather up to date.)     Try $ set term/noregis first.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:43:39 -0400u  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>0 Subject: Re: EDIT/FDL changes colours in DECterm4 Message-ID: <1020425222742.334A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  * On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:  J > A standard-colour DECterm changes to black background, white foreground I > during EDIT/FDL and is not reset after exiting.  Is this a known bug?   * > (VMS 7.3, most stuff rather up to date.)  B Alpha VMS V7.2-1, DWM 1.2-6, DECTerm displayed on a DEC Unix V3.0dF AlphaStation 200 4/100...  Graphics card shows up as Digital S3 Trio64F in the >>> show config (and gives a snippet of Number 9 Beatles lyricsF when the system inits.)  I don't know what the DEC name for this board is.  I think it is only 8 bits.   G This system does the same thing.  (I think.)  All the other (non-focus)eC windows turned blue and the backdrop turned black.  Switching focus 9 to another window temporarily restores the normal colors.l  G I think the color change is due to it running out of color map entries.   C Clicking around in "Commands" "Reset Terminal" and changing variouslD things in "Options" "Window", "Display" and "General" eventually got the normal colors back.   B VAX VMS V7.3, DWM-1.2-6 DECterm displayed on the same AlphaStationC caused the DECterm window to black out momentarily when started andt* when exiting, but otherwise looked normal.   --   John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:16:51 GMTo0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) Subject: Re: EDT or EVE 9 Message-ID: <3cc8457b.1120270834@proxy.news.easynews.com>p  7 On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:34:27 +0530, "Sandeep Yelwatkar"t" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> wrote:   >HiiG >    I am new to the OpenVMS system. Just wondering which is the betterd8 >editor EVE or EDT. Would like to know your suggesstion.  E Learn EVE.  It's programmable and extensible.  Better yet, get one ofa> the EMACS versions that runs on VMS.  That way you can use the* same editor whether you're on VMS or UNIX.  B EDT was good in its day (which was the late 1970s).  UnfortunatelyD the project leader for the development team was obsessed with makingC it completely feature-compatible on every OS on which it ran (whichs@ was VMS and the zoo of PDP-11 operating systems).  This meant itE supported the least common denominator of features.  So, for example, ? EDT didn't do broadcast message interception because that was ad? VMS-only feature.  WIth EDT broadcast messages blatted wherevereD and messed up your screen.  EVE/TPU discreetly displayed them in its
 message area.   F EDT is a relic of a previous age.  So is EVE/TPU, but it's of an age a
 decade later.-  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.2   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:52:39 GMTe- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)  Subject: Re: EDT or EVE@1 Message-ID: <3cc86b90.116638437@news.process.com>m  K On 24 Apr 2002 22:51:50 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:i  P >* TPU = Text Processing Utility [Language] is in itself a neat little language.L >Very Pascal like.  Procedures, variables, no pointers.  A refreshing little
 >language. > N Just as an example of a non-editor written in TPU, my FLIST file and directoryO manager (think FileView or Windows Explorer for regular terminals) is primarily*- written in TPU, with a few C helper routines.   5 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/flist.zip,  B (In addition to being a TPU example, this is a blatant plug for my< most-used-by-me-but-largely-unknown-to-the-rest-of-the-worldI freeware.  I don't know how other people get along without it (or without/1 C-Swing, which is similar (and more extensive)).)l   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/'8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/< New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 16:36:07 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: EDT or EVE = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0204251536.76b07dfe@posting.google.com>   k Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message news:<3CC827BD.6181EC1E@firstdbasource.com>...s > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > r > > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote in message news:<55f85d77.0204250058.1e93f258@posting.google.com>...r > > > "Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> wrote in message news:<uce00t53bua477@corp.supernews.com>...	 >  [snip]wL > > > EVE is more powerful and is my choice (with EDT keypad enabled) simplyK > > > because you can define learn sequences and bind them to a key, and it:1 > > > supports longer than 255 character records.x > > > O > > > You will want to add TPU SET(MOUSE,OFF) to your F$TRNLNM("EVE$INIT") filenK > > > before you even look at using it, otherwise you will be driven %$^@!#eN > > > *INSANE* by not being able to cut and paste using the mouse - who's idea > > > was this anyway? > > > H > > > I never did work out why EDT does not have LEARN where as KED did.6                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  I > > Why doesn't EDT's Ctrl/K count as a LEARN equivalent? Press ^K, pressvJ > > the key you want to define, press the key sequence you want memorized,H > > press the period key, then press Enter. Viola! You've defined a key. > >  [snip]  W > It doesn't behave the same.t >  > try: > 6 > ^K <somekey> <gold>-<find> database <find> <delchar>% > <delchar><delchar><delchar> <ENTER>  > G > in a file that has the word database on line 10 out of 30 lines usinge > both editors.t > - > There are some simialarities but not exact.p,                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  C There is a big difference between "does not have" and " ... but nothF exact". The original poster claimed the first. You claimed the second.D The two are very different. Therefore, the original poster is wrong.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmang" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 16:42:46 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: EDT or EVEv< Message-ID: <343f30ae.0204251542.9ba939e@posting.google.com>  ` Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message news:<3CC82621.1030704@xs4all.nospam.nl>... > Alan E. Feldman wrote:r > > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote in message news:<55f85d77.0204250058.1e93f258@posting.google.com>... > > p > >>"Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> wrote in message news:<uce00t53bua477@corp.supernews.com>... > >  [snip] > >>F > >>I never did work out why EDT does not have LEARN where as KED did..                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  I > > Why doesn't EDT's Ctrl/K count as a LEARN equivalent? Press ^K, press-J > > the key you want to define, press the key sequence you want memorized,H > > press the period key, then press Enter. Viola! You've defined a key. > > 7 > > And please pardon my ignorance, what is or was KED?8 > E > The BIG difference is that with TPU you can see what you are doing kE > during the learn sequence. With EDT you have to do it in the blind.a    B That's not nearly as big a difference as "does have" vs. "does notE have". You may not like that EDT's doesn't execute your keystrokes asnE you press the keystrokes that make up the definition of your new key,i@ but that is very different from saying that EDT doesn't have the; function -- which is what the original poster was claiming.     H > KED was the predecessor of EDT on RT-11 and RSX. RSTS/E never had KED " > but did have EDT V1.0 and later.    9 Thanks. I never heard of KED before reading this thread. 0   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanl" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:29:04 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>( Subject: Re: EDT or EVE ' Message-ID: <3CC8BE42.AE09DF1E@fsi.net>l   Bart Zorn wrote: >  > Alan E. Feldman wrote:r > > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote in message news:<55f85d77.0204250058.1e93f258@posting.google.com>... > >gp > >>"Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> wrote in message news:<uce00t53bua477@corp.supernews.com>... > > 
 > > [snip] > >aJ > >>EVE is more powerful and is my choice (with EDT keypad enabled) simplyI > >>because you can define learn sequences and bind them to a key, and ito/ > >>supports longer than 255 character records.  > >>M > >>You will want to add TPU SET(MOUSE,OFF) to your F$TRNLNM("EVE$INIT") file I > >>before you even look at using it, otherwise you will be driven %$^@!# L > >>*INSANE* by not being able to cut and paste using the mouse - who's idea > >>was this anyway? > >>F > >>I never did work out why EDT does not have LEARN where as KED did. > >o > >hI > > Why doesn't EDT's Ctrl/K count as a LEARN equivalent? Press ^K, press J > > the key you want to define, press the key sequence you want memorized,H > > press the period key, then press Enter. Viola! You've defined a key. > >n
 > > [snip] > D > The BIG difference is that with TPU you can see what you are doingE > during the learn sequence. With EDT you have to do it in the blind.   A Well, not exactly. You do see the commands that will comprise thenF "learned" sequence. However, to assemble that sequence, you must first know what to do.    G I usually only use such things when the repeat counts are into the highcG tens, hundreds or greater. It frequently involves pasting from multipler? buffers and other "magic" to re-arrange code, text or whatever.u  C *BUT* it is the one feature that, combined with TPU's inablility togD translate EDT DEFINE KEY commands to TPU code, keeps me using EDT toE this day. As you might imagine, my EDTINI.EDT is considerable, having G been in development and use since my RSTS/E days back in 1982. I had toAE transcribe it from a dot matrix print out when I got back into VMS in ( the middle 80's after a stint with UNIX.  G Oh, yeah - one "gotcha" that might cause some lost sleep or a late thatiD would otherwise be easily avoided: when editing text in TPU, you canC move the cursor past the physical end of the line. If you (mis)typesF *ANYTHING* while the cursor is past end-of-line, guess what? TPU fillsA with spaces, then inserts the (mis) typed character. Beat my head,D against that one for a week or so when some utility complained aboutE extra spaces at the end of a statement, but I *KNEW* they couldn't be , there (forgot this bug^H^H^Hfeature of TPU).   --   David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:36:50 GMTm1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: EDT or EVEi' Message-ID: <3CC8C017.864ECF40@fsi.net>a   Michael Austin wrote:  >  > Phillip Helbig wrote:n > >aH > > > I never did work out why EDT does not have LEARN where as KED did. > > >cK > > > Why doesn't EDT's Ctrl/K count as a LEARN equivalent? Press ^K, pressfL > > > the key you want to define, press the key sequence you want memorized,J > > > press the period key, then press Enter. Viola! You've defined a key. > >yK > > Although an EDT fan, I have not spent much time on ^K.  I have tried itOJ > > a few times (as following your example), but get "invalid subcommand". > >0I > > A few folks have mentioned here "I use the EDT keypad in EVE and thus:K > > have both".  This gives you JUST the EDT keypad; there is a lot more ton > > EDT. > D > ... and there is a lot more to EVE. ... another useful feature BOXB > SELECT CUT/PASTE. I can cut/paste columns from the middle of the > document.u  H I can honestly say that I've never seens a use for that which I couldn't< do using CTRL+K and the right subcommands and repeat counts.   -- l David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 2002 21:56 CDTy' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e Subject: Re: EDT or EVE - Message-ID: <25APR200221564849@gerg.tamu.edu>s  5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...fH }Oh, yeah - one "gotcha" that might cause some lost sleep or a late thatE }would otherwise be easily avoided: when editing text in TPU, you caneD }move the cursor past the physical end of the line. If you (mis)typeG }*ANYTHING* while the cursor is past end-of-line, guess what? TPU fillsaB }with spaces, then inserts the (mis) typed character. Beat my headE }against that one for a week or so when some utility complained about F }extra spaces at the end of a statement, but I *KNEW* they couldn't be- }there (forgot this bug^H^H^Hfeature of TPU).  }--  }David J. Dachtera  @ You can, of course, turn this off: set cursor bound. Put this inA your EVE$INIT.EVE file (along with other useful things) and never, worry about it again.s   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Apr 2002 00:37:58 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i Subject: Re: EDT or EVEw3 Message-ID: <ri$bLBHFiJ1D@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3CC8BE42.AE09DF1E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:l  I > I usually only use such things when the repeat counts are into the highPI > tens, hundreds or greater. It frequently involves pasting from multiplenA > buffers and other "magic" to re-arrange code, text or whatever.r > E > *BUT* it is the one feature that, combined with TPU's inablility tolF > translate EDT DEFINE KEY commands to TPU code, keeps me using EDT toG > this day. As you might imagine, my EDTINI.EDT is considerable, havingaI > been in development and use since my RSTS/E days back in 1982. I had torG > transcribe it from a dot matrix print out when I got back into VMS in,* > the middle 80's after a stint with UNIX. >   / 	Better would be to save your own section file.a   	Command: help saveC     SAVE ATTRIBUTESt  L    Saves your global settings and other customizations by creating a section2    file or by creating or updating a command file.  	    Steps:e  K       1.  Make the changes you want, such as adding or removing menu items,oE           enabling bound cursor motion, setting tab modes, and so on.e  J       2.  Use the SAVE ATTRIBUTES command. By default, EVE prompts you forG           the name of a section file to create (see usage notes below)..      Usage notes:o  L    o  A section file is in binary form so it is executed quickly at startup,J       but cannot be printed or edited. In effect, the section file is your;       own, customized version of EVE, saving the following:             *  Compiled proceduresg9          *  Most global settings---see help on Attributes 6          *  Key definitions, including learn sequences9          *  Menu definitions for the DECwindows interfaceh    I > Oh, yeah - one "gotcha" that might cause some lost sleep or a late that F > would otherwise be easily avoided: when editing text in TPU, you canE > move the cursor past the physical end of the line. If you (mis)type-H > *ANYTHING* while the cursor is past end-of-line, guess what? TPU fillsC > with spaces, then inserts the (mis) typed character. Beat my headCF > against that one for a week or so when some utility complained aboutG > extra spaces at the end of a statement, but I *KNEW* they couldn't beu. > there (forgot this bug^H^H^Hfeature of TPU). >   9 	I don't run into that one.  When I want to type or go tol6 	the bottom --> PF1-KP4.  You must arrow around a lot.   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:56:25 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>b Subject: Re: EDT or EVE , Message-ID: <3CC8EC01.DB472760@videotron.ca>  > has anyone ever converted from EDT to TPU/EVE as main editor ?  0 Was the conversion painful ? What prompted it ?   C I was born on EVE/TPU. When I took my first VMS course, the teacheroK recommended that we start with TPU instead of EDT because TPU was newer ando the shape of things to come. n  N It was not really difficult to move from previous editors I had used on DOS orF on IBM mainframes to TPU. But I do not look forwards to moving to UnixM editors. And I have never really liked the text editors on the mac or windows.. because they just don't cut it as well as TPU.  H However' I am curious about folks who were brought up on EDT. Seems thatP conversions to TPU are rare and that those stick to EDT. (same applies to TECO).   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 13:49:54 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o Subject: Re: EDT or EVE (TECO!)l3 Message-ID: <DR7pyK+FDBB+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <dc2d8031.0204250727.10cb06fc@posting.google.com>, jgessling@yahoo.com (jojimbo) writes:fp > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote in message news:<55f85d77.0204250228.7002abab@posting.google.com>...k >> Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<538etb7C7mzw@eisner.encompasserve.org>...nl >> > In article <uce00t53bua477@corp.supernews.com>, "Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> writes:	 >> > > HieM >> > >     I am new to the OpenVMS system. Just wondering which is the betterm> >> > > editor EVE or EDT. Would like to know your suggesstion. >> > g
 >> > TECO. >> nM >> YES! - you can get a lot done with K C D EX T S HT and the escape key, um,l+ >> oops! where did DECterm map that one :-)  > G > Oh you dinosaurs.  Use EVE for goodness sakes. It's the original openmF > source editor, look in sys$examples:*.tpu.  Customize to your hearts& > content, TPU is a powerful language.  D Ummm, TECO was actually developed for the PDP-1 by Dan Murphy in theE original environment of sharing paper tapes to which open source fansaE point with historic reverence.  That is why the original meaning was:4   	Tape Editor and COrrector   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 2002 19:49 CDTp' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)IM Subject: Re: How to configure DECvms to connect 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN Modem - Message-ID: <25APR200219490808@gerg.tamu.edu>   5 Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes..., }Jerry Leslie wrote: }> s5 }> Michael Austin (maustin@firstdbasource.com) wrote:e }> : Mahadhir Shaarani wrote:U }> : >P }> : > i have problem with this vms, i naver use vms before, now my problem cameP }> : > becouse of they want to use ISDN connection, i try to find support how to4 }> : > configure this vms to connect this ISDN Modem }> :3 }> : Use an ISDN Router/Hub like the NetGear RH348.p }>  < }> That's exactly what the 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN Modem is. }> iG }> : I would suggest DSL if it is available.  ISDN is only 128K up/downuK }> : max where DSL has varying levels - all above 256K. Residential DSL  is.L }> : generally 1.5M down/256 up. And you can get SDSL at 756/756 or 1.5/1.5. }> : }> sF }> DSL is limited to locations within 15,000 feet of the telco centralE }> office. ISDN can be used up to 31,000 feet by use of a device sucha }> as an Adtran "Total Reach". }> rK }> --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu  (my opinions are strictly my own)g< }>   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email } ? }and the telcos can also install remote DSLAM +repeaters in theTF }individual neighborhoods like mine to get within those ranges.  CableH }will provide the same service - and much faster than ISDN.  It is greatC }to download 5MB+ files in less time than it takes to pour a cup ofi }coffee.  ) And all of this is relevent how, exactly?V  B - They guy is posting from a .my IP address. (I somehow doubt that/ in Malaysia they use the same telco as you do.)tH - He has indicated that he has (or expects to have) a 3Com OfficeConnect* ISDN Modem provided by whoever "they" are.D - He needs to connect a VMS system to it. It is highly unlikely thatE this system is in his home since he says he has never used VMS beforew5 and it is a case of "they want" rather than "I want".r  1 Nothing you have said is relevent to any of this.w  ; "How do I change the oil on my Dodge Neon?" is not answeredm: with "You could buy a Lexus SC430, they come with new oil,< have lots of other spiffy features, and are a lot nicer than a Neon."   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:01:50 -0400s1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>eM Subject: Re: How to configure DECvms to connect 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN ModemC1 Message-ID: <3CC8C31E.C7ECBA7@firstdbasource.com>F   Carl Perkins wrote:  > 7 > Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes...5 > }Jerry Leslie wrote: > }>7 > }> Michael Austin (maustin@firstdbasource.com) wrote:Y > }> : Mahadhir Shaarani wrote:e > }> : >R > }> : > i have problem with this vms, i naver use vms before, now my problem cameR > }> : > becouse of they want to use ISDN connection, i try to find support how to6 > }> : > configure this vms to connect this ISDN Modem > }> :5 > }> : Use an ISDN Router/Hub like the NetGear RH348.a > }>> > }> That's exactly what the 3Com OfficeConnect ISDN Modem is. > }>I > }> : I would suggest DSL if it is available.  ISDN is only 128K up/downbM > }> : max where DSL has varying levels - all above 256K. Residential DSL  isaN > }> : generally 1.5M down/256 up. And you can get SDSL at 756/756 or 1.5/1.5. > }> : > }>H > }> DSL is limited to locations within 15,000 feet of the telco centralG > }> office. ISDN can be used up to 31,000 feet by use of a device suchR  > }> as an Adtran "Total Reach". > }>M > }> --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu  (my opinions are strictly my own)h> > }>   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email > }sA > }and the telcos can also install remote DSLAM +repeaters in theeH > }individual neighborhoods like mine to get within those ranges.  CableJ > }will provide the same service - and much faster than ISDN.  It is greatE > }to download 5MB+ files in less time than it takes to pour a cup ofn
 > }coffee. > + > And all of this is relevent how, exactly?h > D > - They guy is posting from a .my IP address. (I somehow doubt that1 > in Malaysia they use the same telco as you do.)dJ > - He has indicated that he has (or expects to have) a 3Com OfficeConnect, > ISDN Modem provided by whoever "they" are.F > - He needs to connect a VMS system to it. It is highly unlikely thatG > this system is in his home since he says he has never used VMS beforee7 > and it is a case of "they want" rather than "I want".2 > 3 > Nothing you have said is relevent to any of this.@ > = > "How do I change the oil on my Dodge Neon?" is not answereds< > with "You could buy a Lexus SC430, they come with new oil,> > have lots of other spiffy features, and are a lot nicer than
 > a Neon." > 
 > --- Carl   Carl,  SH I am sorry, I fail to see your point and make the connection with what I said.7  oA 1) DSL is not just for residential, it is also used for business.wH 2) DSLAM's are not just in local neighborhoods they are also in business
 districts.G 3) I did not take the time to see that the 3Com OfficeConnect is also a  router - My apologies.D 4) all of this is still relevant to an alternative and advise on his problem.3 5) because of #3 and to answer his question then:  e    need more info.    do you need to use DHCP?t    Static IP address?     DNS?i   Documentation:^ >>http://www.3com.com/products/en_US/result.jsp?selected=2&sort=effdt&order=desc&sku=3C891A-US  A 6) I don't know why it is "highly unlikely" the VMS box is at hish house... I have 2 of them.   -- n Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com  Sr. Consultant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:34:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a6 Subject: Re: I was right!  Alpha will live in Itanium!, Message-ID: <3CC85A56.2CC774B2@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:C > Sun F6800 24 x 750 Mhz CPU's ~25% faster than a 32 CPU GS320 withs > 731 Mhz CPU's.  L OK, now for the really difficult question, which, if you can aswer it, would2 give much more credibility to the above statement:  M Andrew, in your opinion, are there some areas/applications where in the abover< configs, the widlfire alpha will outperform the Sun config ?  K If you can do a self-critique of Sparc to show where it may be weak againste: GS, it would add much more credibility to your statements.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:48:35 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i Subject: IBM and aviationd, Message-ID: <3CC8EA2C.5BA1BBC1@videotron.ca>  + This is meant to put things in perspective.   L While Digital was (not really) bragging about Alpha's super performance, IBME still kept its monopoly on high end mainframe systems such as airlineeL reservation systems. IBM has been able to grow its 1960s 360 architecture toD keep up with the Sparcs and Alphas of today. Not bad, one might say.  L And now, guess who is making news again ? IBM. IBM has developped agreementsL with a few airports (notably Schiphol) for eye-retina identification systemsL for airport security. They have developped self-service kiosks for passengerG check-in, and just announced a deal with Air Canada to provide wirelessvJ wearable computers used by airline employee to check-in passengers who areM waiting in line. (I think a couple of US airlines already have such systems).e  L I find it interesting that IBM doesn't need to brag about its technology andK still wins the really big/important contracts even though it has a "legacy"uH image, while all the vendors such as Compaq that claim to be the world's) best/fastest doesn't get those contracts.e  N I think that one big difference is that IBM is able to deliver a solution thatK includes not just the hardware, not just the OS, not just support, but alsohM the applications. (for instance, those airline check-in kiosks that interfaceU to the airline's mainframes).h  N I don't think that Compaq (and likely HP also) are even anywhere near IBM withE this. Digital, at one point in time was near because it had a seriouse5 applications and database portfolio. But not anymore.S  J Is HP any different from Dell or IBM when it comes to buying shrinkwrappedK systems with Oracle applications, or SAP, or payroll ? Can HP actually selleL you the whole solution, or do you still buy the system from HP, the database from Oracle and SAP from SAP ?  M Remember that 180 day "commitment" from Capellas where he said he would focus,L on applicatiosn and support in order to attempt to catch up to IBM ? PerhapsN he had the right idea. However, in hindsight, I have absolutely no idea why heJ did that, except perhaps only to keep is job and support the sagging stock+ until he and Carly announced their wedding.   C Seems to me that Carly wants to focus only on industry standard andPG shrinkwrapped solutions. Does anyone know if HP might start to actually  develop integrated solutions ?   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:13:57 +0000 (UTC)V From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk9 Subject: Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!g+ Message-ID: <aa9h15$e49$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>y  m In article <hhWx8.10499$fg.1185525@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:r > 3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messageh3 >news:575gcusdknl1o8fdpfibpv7je2f4ajvqjv@4ax.com...e >d >....h >p >> My guess is that if. >> they dump EPIC it will be in favour of IA64 >h >I suspect you mean Yamhill. >  > not Alpha. I would like to >> be wrong. >oM >So would I.  But it's unlikely:  it would require that  a) Yamhill be unabledM >to take up the slack (unlikely unless Yamhill isn't a credible competitor toUG >Hammer, in which case Intel will be in *real* trouble) and  b) that an C >on-chip-glue-enhanced Itanic (likely around 2005) still isn't evenSG >marginally competitive with its high-end competition (being marginally L >competitive in performance is all Intel needs to grab a decent slice of theM >market).  By contrast, converting to Alpha would require either  1) throwing H >away all compatibility with the already-completed hardware and softwareK >surrounding Itanic (not only a major embarrassment for Intel, but a *real*-; >stick in the eye to its partners who have committed to it)a  " Which partners and what hardware ?N Dell and other PC manufacturers will not be too put out. It's been obvious forK ages that IA64 wasn't going to be a mass market product. Hence they will besH quite happy to continue with IA32 and then bring out Yamhill and Hammer 	 products. 8 Microsoft don't seem particularly enthusiastic for IA64.M HP , COMPAQ and SGI can continue what they were (because of IA64 performance)hC having to do anyway - extending the life of their existing systems. I They've lost the money spent on porting to IA64 but as in the case of VMSeD the porting effort should help in porting to either Hammer or Power.  L I don't think anybody was thinking of using IA64 for embedded applications. O Hence apart from OSs no other software manufacturers should really be affected.E  N If HP does take over Compaq then they get a lot of hardware which was designedL with Alpha in mind. They still have the rights to Alpha and the EV8 designs.O They might be able to do a deal with Intel and get the engineering team workings on it again.M Time has passed but probably not too much. Instead of IBM's Power chasing EV8D2 it might be a more even race or EV8 chasing Power.  H Whether this is worth doing depends on the scalability of Hammer/Yamhill= whether it could have any chance of competing against Power. r  K The real tragedy of IA64 is that better competing solutions were sacrificedr to a hyped up mirage.           or  2) convertingL >the Alpha core to the Itanic instruction set and physical interfaces (whichF >would push it out to 2006 or so - quite possibly too late to save the >platform).h >nK >I suppose it's conceivable that Intel is sufficiently wealthy to have keptrI >EV8 development going full blast (but in secret) since last June so that M >option 1 above would exist in 2004 just in case Itanic sank spectacularly in M >the near term rather than just continued taking on water at its current rateuJ >(which might keep it afloat until the 2005 improvements).  But I wouldn't >advise betting on it. >c  I One of the things which was always said would help IA64 would be compilerdI improvements. If IA64 becomes a small niche product will there be anyone nI bothering to do much research on aspects of compilers which will benefit e IA64 ?    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:22:26 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 9 Subject: Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!o, Message-ID: <3CC8576F.DB8799E0@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:lD > If Microsoft really is leaning on Intel to follow the AMD line andC > downplay IA64 then the future of IA64 really is in serious doubt.u  C No more than Alpha's future when it was unveiled. IA64 will be HP'snN proprietary chip used for its proprietary unix, Tandem and possibly VMS shouldL VMS be retained as a product. It will be on a level playing field with Sun'sR Sparc, with Power having a slight edge because it is shared between IBM and Apple.  K And windows will remain on commodity intel/amd chips. ("commodity" is a far,4 better term than "industry standard" in my opinion).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:39:35 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>K9 Subject: Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!r, Message-ID: <3CC86980.2E161EB7@videotron.ca>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:eP > If HP does take over Compaq then they get a lot of hardware which was designedN > with Alpha in mind. They still have the rights to Alpha and the EV8 designs.Q > They might be able to do a deal with Intel and get the engineering team workingv > on it again.  D By selling the Digital compiler people as slaves to Intel, Compaq/HP6 essentially made sure that Alpha could not be revived.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:52:51 GMTh* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!sA Message-ID: <D0_x8.91236$ro5.7901825@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>O  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messageo% news:aa9h15$e49$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...AH > In article <hhWx8.10499$fg.1185525@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill& Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > > 5 > >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messagen5 > >news:575gcusdknl1o8fdpfibpv7je2f4ajvqjv@4ax.com...t > >s > >....D > >a > >> My guess is that if0 > >> they dump EPIC it will be in favour of IA64 > >: > >I suspect you mean Yamhill. > >  > > not Alpha. I would like to > >> be wrong. > > H > >So would I.  But it's unlikely:  it would require that  a) Yamhill be unableL > >to take up the slack (unlikely unless Yamhill isn't a credible competitor toI > >Hammer, in which case Intel will be in *real* trouble) and  b) that an7E > >on-chip-glue-enhanced Itanic (likely around 2005) still isn't eveneI > >marginally competitive with its high-end competition (being marginallyIJ > >competitive in performance is all Intel needs to grab a decent slice of thetF > >market).  By contrast, converting to Alpha would require either  1) throwingJ > >away all compatibility with the already-completed hardware and softwareF > >surrounding Itanic (not only a major embarrassment for Intel, but a *real*= > >stick in the eye to its partners who have committed to it)d >C$ > Which partners and what hardware ?L > Dell and other PC manufacturers will not be too put out. It's been obvious foroJ > ages that IA64 wasn't going to be a mass market product. Hence they will beI > quite happy to continue with IA32 and then bring out Yamhill and Hammer  > products.n   Yup.  : > Microsoft don't seem particularly enthusiastic for IA64.  L That is indeed a very interesting development, and one which I certainly hadD no knowledge of before yesterday (assuming that the information thatG surfaced yesterday is in fact indicative of Microsoft's real attitude).t  H That techies like Cutler would prefer an approach like Hammer's does notH surprise me, but that the corporation as a whole would be swayed by suchG considerations does.  Of course, there have been persistent rumors thatfJ Microsoft and Intel are not always the best of friends, so that could haveH something to do with it as well - especially if Intel really does have aH Hammer-like alternative in the wings that they can be pressured to bringL forth (otherwise, it's really hard to believe that Microsoft would stake its future on AMD alone).t  B > HP , COMPAQ and SGI can continue what they were (because of IA64 performance)E > having to do anyway - extending the life of their existing systems.8  F HP and Compaq will still take it on the chin if Intel abandons Itanic:J they've both got a *lot* of money already devoted to producing current andB future Itanic systems (not to mention extremely visible managementG commitments to the platform).  SGI may be in somewhat better shape, but07 still has a significant investment in the architecture.a  G Furthermore, both HP and Compaq have strategies that depend upon ItaniccJ *eventually* becoming competitive.  If it does not, they'll need new ones,I because neither has a plan to extend the life of their existing processorvL architectures by more than two or three more years before they start falling behind significantly.d  K > They've lost the money spent on porting to IA64 but as in the case of VMS F > the porting effort should help in porting to either Hammer or Power.  K Porting to POWER means porting to a hardware architecture owned by a directtJ competitor (unlike Intel, which is just a supplier).  That's a bit awkwardJ at best when trying to explain why you can produce a better platform usingL that hardware than its owner can.  Porting to Hammer means depending on AMD,L which is risky unless Intel comes out with a fairly compatible second sourceH of the architecture (and that still leaves the question of whether those0 platforms will cut the mustard in the high end).   >n? > I don't think anybody was thinking of using IA64 for embeddedu
 applications.,G > Hence apart from OSs no other software manufacturers should really beo	 affected.n  I But every hardware manufacturer who has already started ramping up actual H production (not just design) for the hardware surrounding Itanic (chips,G boards, boxes) is.  And the Linux people certainly have a lot of effortoF that'll just be discarded (including some real companies, not just the5 open-source crowd) - perhaps the *BSD people as well.c   >rG > If HP does take over Compaq then they get a lot of hardware which wast designedE > with Alpha in mind. They still have the rights to Alpha and the EV8v designs.I > They might be able to do a deal with Intel and get the engineering teame workingw > on it again.K > Time has passed but probably not too much. Instead of IBM's Power chasinge EV8i4 > it might be a more even race or EV8 chasing Power.  I Unless Intel has secretly been continuing the EV8 effort right along, too K much time almost certainly *has* passed.  It's been 10 months now since EV8 J got canceled, which translates to *well* over a year of lost time when youI consider the additional time it would take to get it moving ahead at fullS speed again.  H EV8 in 2004 (or even earlier, which might have been possible a year ago)H would have been a real barn-burner.  EV8 in 2006 (even given the processK advances that will take place over those two extra years) would likely onlyy? be very competitive:  continued core shrinks and speed-ups makehG single-thread performance, chip area, and power (the areas in which EV8 J excelled compared with its competition) less relatively important, and CMPJ approaches like POWER4's (and, eventually, likely Itanic's as well) become! closer to equal in effectiveness.t  J 2006 was supposedly EV9 territory.  I don't know what was planned for EV9,G but if it continued to be as effective as the previous Alpha generationeL jumps have been it would have continued to keep Alpha well in the lead.  ButG with the entire schedule set back a couple of years (unless, as I said,cL Intel really has continued EV8 development in secret), plus the emergence ofL Hammer as something a lot more 'real' than it seemed a year ago, things lookK a lot different:  while it might have been possible for Compaq to resurrect K Alpha (either with or without Intel) last summer, when I was trying to beat D on it hard enough to make that happen, whether it makes sense now is
 debatable.  I [Which is by no means to say that Compaq's management should not still be,K vigorously held accountable for this fiasco and summarily sacked:  not only K is that the way capitalism is supposed to improve the breed, but it's still H the only way to prevent those incompetents from destroying what value is left of the DEC heritage.]   >uJ > Whether this is worth doing depends on the scalability of Hammer/Yamhill> > whether it could have any chance of competing against Power. >tB > The real tragedy of IA64 is that better competing solutions were
 sacrificed > to a hyped up mirage.a   Yup.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:10:40 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a9 Subject: Re: Inquirer even says Alpha in Itanium in 2005!3' Message-ID: <3CC8B9F1.FCC253BC@fsi.net>d   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:- > [snip] > It's been obvious forgA > ages that IA64 wasn't going to be a mass market product. [snip]    *SIGH*  G Part of my problem - being an idiot - is that to me this seems to leave H VMS in IPD right where it was on Alpha. What it is (will be) versus what it could be, well, ...   Nah - fuggeddaboutit.1   --   David J. Dachteraz dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/4   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 03:55:59 +0000 (UTC)0  From: mustang@ucc.asn.au.invalid8 Subject: Re: Itanium 2 hits ... Itanium 3 will be Alpha!* Message-ID: <aaaj4f$eht$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>  ) Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote: D : I told you J.F. and Bill "the genius" Todd that Alpha will show upH : not to far down the road ... no doubt Itanium 3 will be the beginnings : of Alpha EV8!    Bob, kindly get over yourself.A If you want to poke fun at these two gentlemen, do it via e-mail.    D. -- i% " I don't get mad.... I get stabby. "- - William "Fat Tony" Williams.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 22:42:41 +0200- From: Andreas Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de>  Subject: Re: Itanium troubles>* Message-ID: <m3pu0no6gu.fsf@elgin.eder.de>  ( peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:   > The Motif'F > GUI was based on an IBM design, that Microsoft picked up parts of in9 > Windows 95 (and was all originally Xeroxed from Apple).   = Oh, I like that! The GUI, Xeroxed form Apple! How sublime :-)c   'Andreas -- o+ Wherever I lay my .emacs, theres my $HOME.s   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 03:32:45 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Itanium troubless- Message-ID: <aaahot$co8@web.eng.baileynm.com>l  ' In article <aa1pfr$199$1@gw.retro.com>,n5 George William Herbert <gherbert@gw.retro.com> wrote:l) > Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:p4 > >Sander Vesik  <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote:J > >> AFAIK, nobody is making a productised "FreeBSD desktop" - so no, this7 > >> just doesn't happen (yes, it is imho unfortunate).o  " > >Don't you think MacOS X counts?  B > Without getting into a flamewar... I know one of the OS X peopleC > pretty well, and several others less well, and the fact that OS XeC > isn't really FreeBSD but really a FreeBSD userland wrapped around ? > what used to be NeXT's Mach has been a major problem area ford# > porting and compatability issues.r  E Fair enough, but on any photo where both BSD-derived UNIX systems ands@ NT are in the same picture, you need a micrometer to measure theJ distance between FreeBSD, BSDI, Lites, Darwin, or MacOS, or even NeXTSTeP, Tru64, or SunOS 4.  F Heck, most people would need to adjust their glasses to tell Linux and  Unixware from FreeBSD or Darwin.  E MacOS X is a slickly productised BSD UNIX, maybe not identical to thetJ version you or I would really prefer, but it's far more "manager-friendly"G than FreeBSD, while being "engineer-friendly" enough to satisfy all buteI the pickiest BSD users... and I suspect that Linux or Solaris users would " find it not too Procrustean a bed.  J (of course I've had to port SunOS code to Xenix-286, and Unixware softwareE to Tru64, and I'm not scared off by having to #ifdef around sigactioniD argument declarations... which was the last UNIX-based porting issueE I had to deal with. Writing Javascript that'll work with Netscape and G Internet Explorer without server-side help, now *there* is a challenge)p   -- u+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.aE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."-L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 04:49:33 +0000 (UTC)y/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>a Subject: Re: Itanium troubles<3 Message-ID: <1019796572.842874@haldjas.folklore.ee>a  = In comp.arch David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:v > Sander Vesik wrote:e >>  P >> Why does every project have to have the aspirations of conquering everybodies/ >> machine, having no 1 marketshare or similar?h > 6 > It doesn't, but you can't ignore the market, either. > G > If you don't want anyone to use your software, then go ahead and skipcH > usability. Let BG have his monopoly, and the rest of us will just trot1 > along behind, obedient sheep to the shepherd...h > = > However, if you want your own piece of the pie, guess what?n >   A FreeBSD continues to do very well in the market, esp. the area itrE is targeted at. Unlike popular legends, in reality, "would i put thisnF on a machine i would then recomend to my old grandmother as a desktop"' is not really an all-covering question.b   -- i 	Sanderr   +++ Out of cheese error +++t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:22:16 -0400*; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>t" Subject: LA310 config cheat sheet?I Message-ID: <032D86684229CC4AB84588A0BE50FC4002FC03@rlghncst625.usps.gov>n  + Anybody got one handy, either text or .pdf?    TIAm ============================== William W. Webb, EDS' c/o USPS, DSSC OpenVMS Support Servicesl" 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616  919 874 3043  u   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 04:06:15 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)h- Message-ID: <aaajnn$f2p@web.eng.baileynm.com>u  0 In article <aa1htf$o7h$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,) Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote: ' > >> My point is that WYSIWYG is provensH > >> to be a good idea, and one of the reasons is that it DOES allow theI > >> user to control both layout and material together.  I loathe editors 9 > >> that rejustify after I have 'signed off' a document.p  M > >So what happens if someone corrects something in the document that changesbI > >the length of a line? Or if the document has to be distributed via the . > >web, or to someone who's visually impaired?  G > Well, to the first, they shouldn't have done.  Signing off is signing 6 > off - if they edit it, they should do the whole job.  K OK, they correct something in a document that changes the length of a line,nK so the reflowed paragraph is now one line longer than you had it. Does thatiG count as a change in presentation? Is that 'not the whole job'? Do they I go back to you to get the change approved? What if you're on vacation, orh no longer working there?  O How about if the style guide you're supposed to be working with, that specifiedoF that paragraphs start with a half inch hanging indent, changes so thatM that the first paragraph of each section start with a 1 inch by 1 inch indent L containing the initial letter of the paragraph in 72 point Palatino, but theK running text remains in 12 point Times Roman, and remaining paragraphs haveh no indent at all?    > Theoretically,G > and where I am using a markup language that is flexible enough, I tagh0 > the paragraph with the appropriate properties.  I If you're editing markup directly, is that really WYSIWYG? If that countseG then I would quite like a good markup-driven WYSIWYG editor... but thatfK doesn't seem to be an option. And I can guarantee you a lot of people won'trG call it WYSIWYG... I recall having someone telling me that Word Perfect 8 wasn't WYSIWYG because it had a "show codes" option. :-P   > Well, sometimes :-)sE > Note that the separation of layout and content implies that someonenD > else is at liberty to add or ignore such tags - and that is what I
 > don't like.M  E Indeed. If your document is going to be incorporated as Appendix A ofdC another document, then your stylesheet is going to be superceded by  theirs.    -- t+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.mE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:45:54 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rG Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles) , Message-ID: <3CC8DB80.CC138560@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:uM > OK, they correct something in a document that changes the length of a line,.M > so the reflowed paragraph is now one line longer than you had it. Does thatvI > count as a change in presentation? Is that 'not the whole job'? Do theyiK > go back to you to get the change approved? What if you're on vacation, ort > no longer working there?   In some cases/languages yes.    L For instance, you may not want automatic hyphenation in a text style, but inN isolated cases, will want to manually hypehate a very long word to more evenlyK fill the previous line in a narrow column. Reflowing the text may require al' review of its presentation on the page.:  N Similarly, if you have a quote in large letters in a box on the page, you mustK ensure that the extracted text appears on the same page. Reflowing the texteJ might cause that text to appear on the previous or next page and woudl the% require you move that quote manually."  G Granted, the above applies more to magazines than to technical manuals.g   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 04:35:47 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: learning how to use a computer (was: Re: Itanium troubles)A- Message-ID: <aaalf3$h99@web.eng.baileynm.com>   ( In article <Gv15qv.3yHzA@world.std.com>,( Alex Colvin <alexc@world.std.com> wrote:H > It's is essential that this message be viewed in Arial on a peachpuff 
 > background.s    Lucida Sans Typewriter on Wheat.   --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.*E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."uL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:42:28 -0400h; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>r: Subject: Re: Mails with long lines (> 255 bytes) truncated$ Message-ID: <3cc85cb2$1@news.si.com>  @ >I use the same Outlook Express to read email through the IUPOP3 >POP3 service.  L Long line support appeared in IUPOP3 V2.0.4.  If you don't have that version4 or V2.0.5, your pop server is truncating your lines. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comwA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventm< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 04:12:41 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)H Subject: Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer)- Message-ID: <aaak3p$fjj@web.eng.baileynm.com>e  0 In article <oasy9fecq5m.fsf@tyrfing.ifi.uio.no>,8 Jan Ingvoldstad  <jani+news-comp@nntp.ifi.uio.no> wrote:D > Similarly to your paper problem, what happens with your references= > ("see the figure above") when your document has a different G > presentation (aspect ratio, resolution, color depth, gamma, ...) than ( > it had when you originally created it?  G For one thing, your references should be part of the markup, with theirrH presentation subject to a style guide, so that may become "see figure 1,* overleaf" or "click here to see figure 1".  D > Fine, I try to separate my content from the layout, but it doesn't@ > quite work.  I also have to separate the meta-content from theG > content, and both from the layout, yet re-integrate them at the pointo > of presentation.  D It can take quite a bit of effort if you don't have the right tools.  E For a lot of documentation, "put everything in a database and write anH script to generate the presentation" may actually be the best technique,G but I will admit that may not be adequate for a book on calligraphy, orn a poem. :->c  G > At this point, it would also be interesting to compare with different,C > computer architecture design philosophies, as Nick points out (incF > Message-ID: <aa0f6b$hc2$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>).  The world simplyF > isn't as flat as the "basic" CISC or RISC philosophies would like it8 > to be, and we're continuously trying to adopt to that.  G Well, sure... any set of definitions that puts SPARC, Alpha, and ARM inWD the same category, let alone shoving 68000 and 80386 together in the' opposite camp, is obviously incomplete.i  8 In some ways, the 386 may be a better "RISC" than Sparc.   -- c+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.wE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."cL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 04:20:33 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)H Subject: Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer)- Message-ID: <aaakih$g62@web.eng.baileynm.com>u  = In article <343f30ae.0204231053.190e2a09@posting.google.com>,u/ Alan E. Feldman <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote:rE > And one more thing to people who write Web pages: PLEASE STOP USING B > MICROSCOPIC TYPE, ESPECIALLY TYPE THAT CAN'T BE MADE LARGER WITH% > VIEW/TEXT SIZE/LARGER AND THE LIKE.i  E A-bloody-men. Also, if you're using style sheets to select text colorSH then don't put any bloody color or background specifications outside theI style sheets. And if you're using Javascript to make a selection act likehD a menu... put in a "go" button that doesn't use Javascript anyway...  K But yes, I particularly found one of Adobe's first ads for Acrobat amusing.e  E They had the same document in PDF and HTML, with the PDF scrupulouslyVF laid out, and the HTML displayed through the user's settings with HUGE$ text. And the PDF looked much nicer.  I The problem was, the PDF was unreadable at the resolution of the pictured J screen, if you didn't have the original text in the HTML window next to it as a crib sheet.  K I can recall no better argument against letting content authors micromanagel
 presentation..   ...    One note, though...r  L There does seem to be a miscommunication here. One of Nick's recent messagesH indicates that his definition of WYSIWYG doesn't preclude a markup-based system.o   -- y+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.:E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything.",L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Apr 2002 04:30:31 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)H Subject: Re: markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: learning how to use a computer)- Message-ID: <aaal57$gu5@web.eng.baileynm.com>o  0 In article <oaselh5cscz.fsf@tyrfing.ifi.uio.no>,8 Jan Ingvoldstad  <jani+news-comp@nntp.ifi.uio.no> wrote:E > This is not a problem in MS Word, either.  MS Word has styles, very F > similar in function to the styles of e.g. PageMaker.  You can createB > your own styles as derivatives of existing styles (and make themH > follow the changes made to the "mother" styles), change how they work,D > etc.  In these things, I can't honestly claim that MS Word is much > worse than LaTeX.   F MS Word has no concept of a container object, though, and no hierarchyA of styles. If you take a block of text containing a paragraph andtH two bulleted points, and move it from the top level into a numbered listA inside a quoted paragraph, you will need to manually reformat it.a  G A well designed markup system would combine the attributes of the newly G nested text with the original, so the result would be a plain paragraph A followed by two bulleted points inside a nested quoted paragraph.a   In HTML terms:   <P>Plain paragraph</P> <UL> <LI>First bulleted point <LI>Second bulleted pointl </UL>y   this can be moved inside:t   <BLOCKQUOTE>! <P>This is a quoted paragraph</P>a <OL> <LI>This is the first list item-  <LI>This is the second list item <LI>B We're going to move the text above down here and replace this line, <LI>And the last list item comes at the end. </OL> 
 </BLOCKQUOTE>-  L And it'll just work. I would assume that LaTeX can do the same... after all,L the old ugly ancient UNIX "nroff" could manage it. In Word, the result would look something like:   <BLOCKQUOTE>! <P>This is a quoted paragraph</P>  <OL> <LI>This is the first list itemr  <LI>This is the second list item <LI> </OL>)
 </BLOCKQUOTE>t <P>Plain paragraph</P> <UL> <LI>First bulleted point <LI>Second bulleted point  </UL>o <BLOCKQUOTE> <OL>, <LI>And the last list item comes at the end. </OL>p
 </BLOCKQUOTE>o  C This is, to me, incomprehensible. Why would anyone use such a tool?2   -- 5+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.lE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."DL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:53:48 GMT.6 From: "John.Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>% Subject: MSA1000 - Re: VMS 7.3-1 SDK? 4 Message-ID: <3CC86BB0.1040500@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  O > Can somebody check if the new MSA1000 is supported in the VMS V7.3-1, please.-  3 At this current time it is not listed as supported.    -Johnr malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq Personal Opinion Onlyi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:18:26 +0200 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> ! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozillat/ Message-ID: <3CC84872.3020807@xs4all.nospam.nl>n   John Reagan wrote:  > system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >  >>F >> I'm assuming that you're running Mozilla 0.9.9 on the latest MarvelE >> hardware when you make that claim.  Sorry, but Mozilla is a dog on 
 >> the Alpha.2 >> >> -- : >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001      >> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  >  > D > No Marvel here, but as others have mentioned, I have a reasonable E > machine, with reasonable memory, with additional tuning for "large l  > memory footprint applications" > H > My OpenVMS machine is an XP 1000, 667MHZ, 2GB RAM, along with lots of " > increased SYSGEN and UAF quotas. >  > (hiyall)$ show sys/multiM > OpenVMS V7.2-1  on node HIYALL  25-APR-2002 13:24:56.46  Uptime 21 14:46:36 I >   Pid    Process Name    State  Pri      I/O       CPU       Page flts w >  PagesI > 000000AE VUE$REAGAN_11   HIB      4  3259989   0 00:39:37.14    161600 t
 > 29813 MSF > Here's Mozilla running on my system. Note that is using 29813 pages ; > (those are 8Kbyte pages) which is about 232 MB of memory.r >   D I certainly can't afford such a configuration. AND I still have the I feeling that the balance between functionality and required resources is b completely lost.  	 Bart Zornr   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:54:45 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGs! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozilla 0 Message-ID: <00A0CFF9.F576EF85@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <3CC83C90.2030207@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: >system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:n >> BF >> I'm assuming that you're running Mozilla 0.9.9 on the latest MarvelE >> hardware when you make that claim.  Sorry, but Mozilla is a dog ond
 >> the Alpha.c >> a >> --.R >> VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >4C >No Marvel here, but as others have mentioned, I have a reasonable eD >machine, with reasonable memory, with additional tuning for "large  >memory footprint applications"t >'G >My OpenVMS machine is an XP 1000, 667MHZ, 2GB RAM, along with lots of o! >increased SYSGEN and UAF quotas.  >_ >(hiyall)$ show sys/multieL >OpenVMS V7.2-1  on node HIYALL  25-APR-2002 13:24:56.46  Uptime 21 14:46:36I >   Pid    Process Name    State  Pri      I/O       CPU       Page flts s >  PagesH >000000AE VUE$REAGAN_11   HIB      4  3259989   0 00:39:37.14    161600 	 >29813 MS2E >Here's Mozilla running on my system. Note that is using 29813 pages a: >(those are 8Kbyte pages) which is about 232 MB of memory. >4 >--  >John Reagan( >Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader >n  B So Compaq will see to it that all VMS sites wishing to run MozillaD will receive a "reasonable machine, with reasonable memory, with ad-? ditional tuning for "large memory footprint applications""?  ;)u   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMw            aJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbese   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:52:42 GMTo* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozillae) Message-ID: <3CC88790.8070401@compaq.com>t   Bart Zorn wrote: > John Reagan wrote: > E >> No Marvel here, but as others have mentioned, I have a reasonable bF >> machine, with reasonable memory, with additional tuning for "large ! >> memory footprint applications"0    F > I certainly can't afford such a configuration. AND I still have the K > feeling that the balance between functionality and required resources is A > completely lost. >  > Bart Zornn >    No argument here.,       -- t John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:54:53 GMTa* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozillae) Message-ID: <3CC88813.8030203@compaq.com>n   system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   > D > So Compaq will see to it that all VMS sites wishing to run MozillaF > will receive a "reasonable machine, with reasonable memory, with ad-A > ditional tuning for "large memory footprint applications""?  ;)  >    Sure.  Just send $$$$       --   John Reagana' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadera   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:01:55 GMTh1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozillap' Message-ID: <3CC8B7E8.67C88B73@fsi.net>    John Reagan wrote: >  > Bart Zorn wrote: > > John Reagan wrote: > >bF > >> No Marvel here, but as others have mentioned, I have a reasonableG > >> machine, with reasonable memory, with additional tuning for "large # > >> memory footprint applications"d > G > > I certainly can't afford such a configuration. AND I still have thehL > > feeling that the balance between functionality and required resources is > > completely lost. > > 
 > > Bart Zornp > >t >  > No argument here.h  D Hhmmm... Sounds like that old "affordability" thing rearing its ugly
 head again...o   --   David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 2002 21:53 CDTh' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ! Subject: Re: Netscape and Mozillal- Message-ID: <25APR200221531183@gerg.tamu.edu>b  5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...  }John Reagan wrote:h }> Bart Zorn wrote:l }> > John Reagan wrote:  }> >G }> >> No Marvel here, but as others have mentioned, I have a reasonableaH }> >> machine, with reasonable memory, with additional tuning for "large$ }> >> memory footprint applications" }> eH }> > I certainly can't afford such a configuration. AND I still have theM }> > feeling that the balance between functionality and required resources is  }> > completely lost.c }> > }> > Bart Zorn }> > }> t }> No argument here. } E }Hhmmm... Sounds like that old "affordability" thing rearing its uglys }head again... }  }--  }David J. Dachtera  = In this particular case, it sounds more like a poorly written  piece of software.  A If you need to let it use >200MB of RAM to work well, my question > is what the heck is is actually doing with all that memory? Do@ you know how much that is? It is a LOT. You can probably fit theC entire managers section (and maybe the general section, too) of theuE full VMS documentation set using plain uncompressed ASCII, along with C the diagrams at screen resolution, into 200MB. (And I think many of?  us know just how big that is...)  D Basically, I expect it is a piece of junk. Unfortunately, so is mostC of the other software out there. Probably the most common thing you A can hear me say about software is things along the lines of "what>  idiot wrote this piece of junk"?   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 21:45:18 -0700 From: wingwong@witty.com (wing)n Subject: Network Delay? = Message-ID: <873e96d6.0204252045.1f4b6d85@posting.google.com>h   Hi,   @ I have a server which dispatchs data thro' network to 200 socketC connections.  The receivers have message delay and the buffer IO of/? the sender machine is just less than 300.  However, there is noe5 remarkable delay when the number of connection is 90.n  B Moreover, with 200 connections, there are errors in writing to theB socket with the following C call.  The socket option is set to non	 blocking.r- int write ( int d, void *buffer, int nbytes);a  C I suspect that there is delay in the network which makes the socket ) buffer overflow. Am I in the right track?.  C Furthermore, I have found the command 'mc lancp sh config' to checkr7 the network interface, but how is the data interpreted?u   $ mc lancp sh config   LAN Configuration:8 Device Parent Medium/User Version Speed Size LAN Address> ------ ------ ----------- ------- ----- ---- -----------------> EWA0           CSMA/CD    Unknown  100  1500 00-00-F8-1A-D5-46  ' Thanks in advance for any ideas/inputs,D   Wing   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 13:36:22 -0700/ From: jperison@mindspring.com (Joel A. Perison)tC Subject: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M = Message-ID: <7f004536.0204251236.37a72224@posting.google.com>_   Hi,   B I am unable to change the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M.  I9 have a port set up for remote access with remote password B characteristic enabled, and it prompts ("#") the remote user for aB password when connecting, but I can't change the password from the default ("ACCESS").    Any thoughts or suggestions?  
 Thank you, Joel   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:46:13 -0400g1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>uG Subject: Re: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90Mn2 Message-ID: <3CC87925.E33DADF8@firstdbasource.com>   "Joel A. Perison" wrote: >  > Hi,e > D > I am unable to change the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M.  I; > have a port set up for remote access with remote password D > characteristic enabled, and it prompts ("#") the remote user for aD > password when connecting, but I can't change the password from the > default ("ACCESS").  >  > Any thoughts or suggestions? >  > Thank you, > Joel  	 did you  -   DS90> SET PRIV e Password: <password> G0 to turn privs on so you can change the password?   -- m Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163D7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comf Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)v 704-236-4377 (Mobile)p   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 20:54:14 -0700/ From: jperison@mindspring.com (Joel A. Perison)eG Subject: Re: Problems changing the "remote password" on a DECserver 90Mo= Message-ID: <7f004536.0204251954.6d3d1e7a@posting.google.com>n  k Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message news:<3CC87925.E33DADF8@firstdbasource.com>...e > "Joel A. Perison" wrote: > >  > > Hi,e > > F > > I am unable to change the "remote password" on a DECserver 90M.  I= > > have a port set up for remote access with remote password F > > characteristic enabled, and it prompts ("#") the remote user for aF > > password when connecting, but I can't change the password from the > > default ("ACCESS").i > >   > > Any thoughts or suggestions? > >  > > Thank you, > > Joel >  > did you  h >  > DS90> SET PRIV r > Password: <password> e2 > to turn privs on so you can change the password?  E Yes.  I don't think that it would let me change the "remote password"o without privs turned on.  B It lets me go through the motion of changing the "remote password"F without reporting any problems, but when I connect as a remote user itC is still using the default password ("ACCESS").  I've tried it with E set, define, and change (understanding that change should cover set & B define).  At first, I thought that there might have been a problemA with using change to do this.  Software doesn't always operate as 
 advertised :)l  C I'm able to toggle the "remote password" characteristic on the portiC between enabled and disabled to control whether or not I'm promptedaC ("#") for the password when I connect, but I can't get it to modify  what the remote password is.   Thank you for your response.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:04:26 -0500i5 From: "Don Whitlow" <Don.Whitlow@PLEASENOSPAM.qg.com>-O Subject: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively.v( Message-ID: <3cc861d0$1@news.qgraph.com>  L One of my developers has a process that runs normally as a detached process, with the following startup DCL:1  . $ RUN /DETACH/PROCESS_NAME="''PROCESS_NAME'" - /INPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.COM -w /OUTPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.LOG - /UIC=[MAILING,ML] -W /FILE_LIMIT=196 -O /PAGE_FILE=600000 -I /WORKING_SET=16384 - /MAXIMUM_WORKING_SET = 131072 -  SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXEN  K This program looks for and processes large data files. The problem is, with L some of the really large data files, we get an "insufficient virtual memory"L error but we can then run the program interactively out of the same account,I and it will work fine. I have tried starting the detached process withoutuJ any of the quotas/limits listed above in order to take the default limits,J but even then we have the problem, and it continues to work interactively.  I Does anyone have any ideas? The quotas & limits in the uaf entry for thisn account look like this:e  < Maxjobs:         0     Fillm:      1024  Bytlm:       250000= Maxacctjobs:     0      Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:        8192i9 Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:       300  JTquota:      16384a9 Prclm:           2  DIOlm:       300  WSdef:        32000m9 Prio:            4  ASTlm:       300  WSquo:       100000h9 Queprio:         4  TQElm:        10  WSextent:    100000r9 CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      6000  Pgflquo:    1250000e  
 Any thoughts?a  ' Thanks in advance for any help / ideas.o   Don    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 02 15:46:32 PST From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com S Subject: Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively.D( Message-ID: <8VtmtD6hUJlB@cpva.saic.com>  ( In article <3cc861d0$1@news.qgraph.com>,8  "Don Whitlow" <Don.Whitlow@PLEASENOSPAM.qg.com> writes:N > One of my developers has a process that runs normally as a detached process,! > with the following startup DCL:e > 0 > $ RUN /DETACH/PROCESS_NAME="''PROCESS_NAME'" - > /INPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.COM -i > /OUTPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.LOG - > /UIC=[MAILING,ML] -h > /FILE_LIMIT=196 -e > /PAGE_FILE=600000 -f > /WORKING_SET=16384 -! > /MAXIMUM_WORKING_SET = 131072 -  > SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXEv > M > This program looks for and processes large data files. The problem is, withlN > some of the really large data files, we get an "insufficient virtual memory"N > error but we can then run the program interactively out of the same account,K > and it will work fine. I have tried starting the detached process withoutaL > any of the quotas/limits listed above in order to take the default limits,L > but even then we have the problem, and it continues to work interactively. > K > Does anyone have any ideas? The quotas & limits in the uaf entry for thisl > account look like this:i > > > Maxjobs:         0     Fillm:      1024  Bytlm:       250000? > Maxacctjobs:     0      Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:        8192:; > Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:       300  JTquota:      16384L; > Prclm:           2  DIOlm:       300  WSdef:        32000t; > Prio:            4  ASTlm:       300  WSquo:       100000L; > Queprio:         4  TQElm:        10  WSextent:    100000t; > CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      6000  Pgflquo:    1250000p >  > Any thoughts?n >   6 What happens when the detached process is started with "/PAGE_FILE=1250000 -" ?   What does the following show?h   $ MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> SHOW PQL_DPGFLQUOTAI SYSGEN> SHOW PQL_MPGFLQUOTA   ) > Thanks in advance for any help / ideas.  >  > DonT >  >  -- s - Jime   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 04:34:23 +0200e2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)S Subject: Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively. ; Message-ID: <3cc8bcaf.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>n  4 Don Whitlow (Don.Whitlow@PLEASENOSPAM.qg.com) wrote:N > One of my developers has a process that runs normally as a detached process, ... M > This program looks for and processes large data files. The problem is, with.N > some of the really large data files, we get an "insufficient virtual memory"N > error but we can then run the program interactively out of the same account, > and it will work fine. [...] > Does anyone have any ideas?z  E The attached procedure (don't know where it came from originally) has68 helped me follow the resource requirements of processes.  C Call it from a (perhaps WORLD-enabled) terminal with the PID of the + process to be monitored. Stop it by Ctrl-Y.s  D It doesn't always point up the problem quota but its useful to have.D While I've had no problems with it, i didn't write it and you run it at your own risk.    Hope it helps,   Martin   $!-- WATCH_QUOTAS.COM -- $!5 $! delay = "00:00:01"  ! wait interval between passes0= $!                     ! if commented out, loop without delayr $R
 $ SET NOON $>  $ msg = F$ENVIRONMENT("MESSAGE"); $ SET MESSAGE/NOFACILITY/NOSEVERITY/NOIDENTIFICATION/NOTEXTm $  $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO END $ ON WARNING   THEN GOTO END $>" $ cntrl = F$ENVIRONMENT("CONTROL") $ SET CONTROL=Y: $ SET NOCONTROL=TV $a
 $ ESC = "" $ ESC[0,8] = 27  $ CSI = ESC + "["u $ say = "WRITE SYS$OUTPUT" $ qfmt  = "!10AS!3(8SL)%  !8SL"w $ wfmt  = "!10AS!8SL"w $ wfmt2 = wfmt + "  max !8SL"e $ 
 $ pid = P10 $ IF pid .EQS. "" THEN pid = F$GETJPI("", "PID") $X $ SET TERMINAL /NOBROADCASTg $t $ init_time     = F$TIME()( $ ASTLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "ASTLM")( $ FILLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "FILLM")( $ DIOLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "DIOLM")( $ BIOLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "BIOLM")( $ BYTLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "BYTLM")' $ TQLM          = F$GETJPI(pid, "TQLM") ( $ ENQLM         = F$GETJPI(pid, "ENQLM"), $ PGFLQUO       = F$GETJPI(pid, "PGFLQUOTA")* $ WSDEFAULT     = F$GETJPI(pid, "DFWSCNT")* $ WSQUOTA       = F$GETJPI(pid, "WSQUOTA")+ $ WSEXTENT      = F$GETJPI(pid, "WSEXTENT")c $  $ MAX_ASTCNT    = 0s $ MAX_FILCNT    = 0n $ MAX_DIOCNT    = 0t $ MAX_BIOCNT    = 0d $ MAX_BYTCNT    = 0s $ MAX_TQCNT     = 0  $ MAX_ENQCNT    = 0- $ MAX_PAGFILCNT = 0- $ MAX_WSSIZE    = 0p $ MAX_GBLPAGES  = 0  $m $ say "''CSI'2J''CSI'0;0H" $j $loop: $t5 $ USER          =           F$GETJPI(pid, "USERNAME")S3 $ NAME          =           F$GETJPI(pid, "PRCNAM")o2 $ STATE         =           F$GETJPI(pid, "STATE")5 $ IMAGE         =           F$GETJPI(pid, "IMAGNAME")h3 $ ASTCNT        = ASTLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "ASTCNT") 3 $ FILCNT        = FILLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "FILCNT")i3 $ DIOCNT        = DIOLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "DIOCNT")X3 $ BIOCNT        = BIOLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "BIOCNT")A3 $ BYTCNT        = BYTLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "BYTCNT")t2 $ TQCNT         = TQLM    - F$GETJPI(pid, "TQCNT")3 $ ENQCNT        = ENQLM   - F$GETJPI(pid, "ENQCNT")"6 $ PAGFILCNT     = PGFLQUO - F$GETJPI(pid, "PAGFILCNT")3 $ WSSIZE        =           F$GETJPI(pid, "WSSIZE")l3 $ GBLPAGES      =           F$GETJPI(pid, "GPGCNT")i3 $ PRCPAGES      =           F$GETJPI(pid, "PPGCNT")L5 $ FAULTS        =           F$GETJPI(pid, "PAGEFLTS") 3 $ CPUTIM        =           F$GETJPI(pid, "CPUTIM") 5 $ VIRTPEAK      =           F$GETJPI(pid, "VIRTPEAK")  $4  $ IF NAME .EQS. "" THEN GOTO end $ * $ IMAGE         = F$PARSE(IMAGE,,, "NAME")* $ IF IMAGE .EQS. "LOGINOUT" THEN GOTO skip $ % $ PAGES         = GBLPAGES + PRCPAGES  $ CPU_SEC       = CPUTIM / 100* $ CPU_HUND      = CPUTIM - (CPU_SEC * 100)* $ CPUTIME       = "''CPU_SEC'.''CPU_HUND'" $i= $ IF ASTCNT    .GT. MAX_ASTCNT    THEN MAX_ASTCNT    = ASTCNT = $ IF FILCNT    .GT. MAX_FILCNT    THEN MAX_FILCNT    = FILCNTm= $ IF DIOCNT    .GT. MAX_DIOCNT    THEN MAX_DIOCNT    = DIOCNTe= $ IF BIOCNT    .GT. MAX_BIOCNT    THEN MAX_BIOCNT    = BIOCNT = $ IF BYTCNT    .GT. MAX_BYTCNT    THEN MAX_BYTCNT    = BYTCNTl< $ IF TQCNT     .GT. MAX_TQCNT     THEN MAX_TQCNT     = TQCNT= $ IF ENQCNT    .GT. MAX_ENQCNT    THEN MAX_ENQCNT    = ENQCNT-@ $ IF PAGFILCNT .GT. MAX_PAGFILCNT THEN MAX_PAGFILCNT = PAGFILCNT= $ IF WSSIZE    .GT. MAX_WSSIZE    THEN MAX_WSSIZE    = WSSIZEs? $ IF GBLPAGES  .GT. MAX_GBLPAGES  THEN MAX_GBLPAGES  = GBLPAGESn $aE $ text = F$FAO("Process Name: !15AS   State: !AS        Time: !AS", - .                 NAME, STATE, F$TIME(), "    ") $ say "''CSI'1;0H''text'"f( $ text = F$FAO("Image Name: !AS", IMAGE)  $ say "''CSI'2;0H''text'''CSI'K"9 $ text = F$FAO("User: !AS  PID: !AS  CPUtime: !AS !AS", -h6                User, PID, CPUTIME, "seconds         ") $ say "''CSI'3;0H''text'"., $ say "''CSI'4;0HProcess Quota Information:"= $ say "''CSI'5;0H             Quota    Used     ( % )   " + -e#       "MAX used since ''init_time'" G $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "ASTLM", ASTLM, ASTCNT, ASTCNT*100/ASTLM, MAX_ASTCNT)mG $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "FILLM", FILLM, FILCNT, FILCNT*100/FILLM, MAX_FILCNT)0G $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "DIOLM", DIOLM, DIOCNT, DIOCNT*100/DIOLM, MAX_DIOCNT)sG $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "BIOLM", BIOLM, BIOCNT, BIOCNT*100/BIOLM, MAX_BIOCNT)sG $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "BYTLM", BYTLM, BYTCNT, BYTCNT*100/BYTLM, MAX_BYTCNT)lG $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "ENQLM", ENQLM, ENQCNT, ENQCNT*100/ENQLM, MAX_ENQCNT) F $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "TQLM" , TQLM , TQCNT , TQCNT *100/TQLM , MAX_TQCNT)K $ say F$FAO(qfmt, "PGFLQUOTA", PGFLQUO, PAGFILCNT, PAGFILCNT*100/PGFLQUO, -D                    MAX_PAGFILCNT) $ say ""  $ say "Working Set Information:") $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "WSEXTENT" , WSEXTENT) ( $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "WSQUOTA"  , WSQUOTA)* $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "WSDEFAULT", WSDEFAULT)3 $ say F$FAO(wfmt2, "WSSIZE"   , WSSIZE, MAX_WSSIZE)s& $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "PAGES"    , PAGES)' $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "FAULTS"   , FAULTS) ) $ say F$FAO(wfmt , "VIRTPEAK" , VIRTPEAK)  $  $skip:- $ IF F$TYPE(delay) .NES. "" THEN WAIT 'delay'l $ GOTO LOOP  $e $end:h $ SET TERMINAL /BROADCASTt $ SET NOCONTROL=Ye. $ IF cntrl .NES. "" THEN SET CONTROL=('cntrl') $ SET MESSAGE 'msg'  $ say "''CSI'23;0H"  $ EXIT   -- dG                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer 4 Microsoft isn't the Borg:  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK the Borg have proper       |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/o; networking.                | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.der   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:59:34 -0600t$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Program running out of virtual memory detached, but not interactively. interh) Message-ID: <3CC8D0A6.283DC413@cha.ab.ca>>  I You didn't specify the version of VMS.  I vaguely recall having a similardP problem with VAX 6.2 around 1995.  A detached BASIC program decremented its pageM file quota by four bytes every time it called LIB$SPAWN.  Eventually it died.nN We monitored the process and could see this resource decreasing.  The only fixP for the problem was to stop and restart the process regularly, before it ran out of page file quota.>   Don Whitlow wrote:  N > One of my developers has a process that runs normally as a detached process,! > with the following startup DCL:J >a0 > $ RUN /DETACH/PROCESS_NAME="''PROCESS_NAME'" - > /INPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.COM -  > /OUTPUT=QG$ML:ML5100.LOG - > /UIC=[MAILING,ML] -A > /FILE_LIMIT=196 -e > /PAGE_FILE=600000 -k > /WORKING_SET=16384 -! > /MAXIMUM_WORKING_SET = 131072 -w > SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE  > M > This program looks for and processes large data files. The problem is, withoN > some of the really large data files, we get an "insufficient virtual memory"N > error but we can then run the program interactively out of the same account,K > and it will work fine. I have tried starting the detached process withoutrL > any of the quotas/limits listed above in order to take the default limits,L > but even then we have the problem, and it continues to work interactively. > K > Does anyone have any ideas? The quotas & limits in the uaf entry for this- > account look like this:: >-> > Maxjobs:         0     Fillm:      1024  Bytlm:       250000? > Maxacctjobs:     0      Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:        8192 ; > Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:       300  JTquota:      16384t; > Prclm:           2  DIOlm:       300  WSdef:        32000a; > Prio:            4  ASTlm:       300  WSquo:       1000000; > Queprio:         4  TQElm:        10  WSextent:    100000 ; > CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      6000  Pgflquo:    1250000r >r > Any thoughts?o >e) > Thanks in advance for any help / ideas.c >  > Doni   -- Leen  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority E Email: lytmah@nospamcha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCu4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9e   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 18:10:04 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m! Subject: Re: Security question...s3 Message-ID: <Z1CAGx7rDsW7@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  i In article <8b51ed8.0204251254.1d2efcd9@posting.google.com>, vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham) writes:/> > We're having a discussion at work about log file security...F > Can a user (system or root) manipulate a logfile without anyone ever  > knowing about it. If so how???  E A root user cannot do that, if by root user you mean someone who doesaE not know enough about VMS to know that the term is "privileged" user.   F > I don't think so cause the revised date on the file would be changedD > and it should indicate the user who last accessed the file. If theG > file is open, you can't edit it or copy it as this is a file access (r > sharing ) violation.  E Privileges beat all.  Physical access beats privileges.  You might as-E well combine those and not allow any privileged access to the machineiE outside the locked computer room.  Besides auditing access within theiC computer room, video recording should be used to watch for abnormal3C physcial activity.  And to consider the human factor make sure that A nobody is ever in the computer room unaccompanied.  That means at F least three people on each shift (to allow for breaks).  Best practiceH would be to rotate the schedule so the same team is not working together
 all the time.g  F > Anyone have any thoughts on the matter. Our security guy is freaking > out...   Perhaps not enough.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 13:54:07 -0700* From: vmendham@altavista.com (Vic Mendham) Subject: Security question....< Message-ID: <8b51ed8.0204251254.1d2efcd9@posting.google.com>  < We're having a discussion at work about log file security...D Can a user (system or root) manipulate a logfile without anyone ever knowing about it. If so how???D I don't think so cause the revised date on the file would be changedB and it should indicate the user who last accessed the file. If theE file is open, you can't edit it or copy it as this is a file access (m sharing ) violation.  D Anyone have any thoughts on the matter. Our security guy is freaking out...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:44:16 -0400a1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>9" Subject: Re: Security question....2 Message-ID: <3CC878B0.57A99F09@firstdbasource.com>   Vic Mendham wrote: > > > We're having a discussion at work about log file security...F > Can a user (system or root) manipulate a logfile without anyone ever  > knowing about it. If so how???F > I don't think so cause the revised date on the file would be changedD > and it should indicate the user who last accessed the file. If theG > file is open, you can't edit it or copy it as this is a file access (s > sharing ) violation. > F > Anyone have any thoughts on the matter. Our security guy is freaking > out...  G First, if you can't trust a person with system or system privs like theuE system admin, dba and network admin, then you might as well power off,D the box and go home because that is the only security you will have.  F Anyone with sufficient privs can get around everything except the fileD sharing violation. (I supposse you could come up with something thatH could.. but) if the file has acls to prevent all but a select few accessF to those log files they can't even do that.  You can lock a VMS systemE down so tight that normal users can't even get to the files let alonee try and change them. -- n Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163h7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comW Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)P 704-236-4377 (Mobile)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:05:20 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s) Subject: Re: Suggestion: SET DEVICE/RESET ' Message-ID: <3CC8B8B3.D323E800@fsi.net>    mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote: > ) > In article <3CC77402.E91255B5@fsi.net>,M5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:O" > > mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote: > >> > [...snip...] > >> >L > >> > I recently discovered - these drives and their younger cousins (TZ88,K > >> > etc.) do this to the HSJs, as well. Ya gotta delete them and add 'em,: > >> > back before youy can use 'em again after a failure. > >> >
 > >> > :-( > >> >	 > >> > --f > >> > David J. Dachtera > >> > dba DJE Systems > >> > http://www.djesys.com/c > >> >/ > >> > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:d& > >> > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > >>K > >> It's been a while so I forget all the details, but, in the instance ofaI > >> a tape drive hung off an HSJ you can frequently recover use of it bylK > >> issueing a SET SECURITY command targeting the device. Try changing theaK > >> the protection mask to something else and back again. A side effect of K > >> this is that a bit in some status mask gets cleared. I don't recall if3C > >> the bit is within one of the UCB fields or the ORB. Anyway, my:H > >> recollection is that the bit represented "damaged" hardware. Sorry,H > >> I can't remember all the details (it's been a while); don't know if( > >> this would help with JF's TK drive. > >oJ > > My problem was that the HSJ reported the device as "misconfigured - noK > > device at PTL" or something. VMS simply reported it as off-line. So, noe6 > > matter what you did, the HSJ still saw it as AWOL. > >U > < > Yep, the HSJ can't serve it if it doesn't know what it is.  F But, *THAT* is the problem! Up until it went south, HSJ knew perfectlyC well what it was! Is HSJ making brash assumptions because the drivet= "dropped ready" temporarily? ...or asserted its fault signal?'   > The instance7 > I described was one where VMS was the confused party.-  . Got that, yeah. *MY* problem was with the HSJ.   > My recollection F > is that possesion of the BYPASS privilege also allowed access to the' > drive when the "damaged" bit was set.f   -- p David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:38:27 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>t/ Subject: Re: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipes( Message-ID: <3CC84D1A.37FEDEEF@ohio.edu>   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:e > ! > In ascending order of security:  >  > 1) INIT/ERASE;9 > 2) Low-level format from console depending on HW model;t# > 3) Strong, strong magnetic field;k  D 3.5) Bake drive at a temperature above the Curie temperature for theE       magnetic media.  This will guarantee that the magnetic pattern 9G       upon cooling is random and unrelated to the prior magnetization. :  I      I have no idea whether modern magnetic media have Curie temperaturesSI       low enough that the rest of the drive components would survive this0I       experience, but quantum mechanics guarantees the randomness, if you C       really get all the magnetic domains above their Curie point. p    & > 4) Crush drive via mechanical means;@ > 5) Disassemble drive, sand platter surfaces, dissolve in acid; > C >    (don't laugh, I've worked with somebody who had to do #5 whileo >     in the military) >  > WWWebb >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ) > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:35 PMtD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET- > Subject: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipec > K > We are decommissioning our 4000-100 and are in need of a secure method ofSL > wiping the SCSI drives prior to its removal.  Any Ideas or starting points > would be appreciated?  > 	 > Regardsm > Tadd   -- pB ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:07:47 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>/ Subject: RE: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipeb- Message-ID: <0033000061571262000002L022*@MHS>b   =0AEntropy rules, eh, Dick?s   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETn& Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:54 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET/ Subject: RE: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipe!     WILLIAM WEBB wrote:s >0! > In ascending order of security:n >  > 1) INIT/ERASE;9 > 2) Low-level format from console depending on HW model;)# > 3) Strong, strong magnetic field;/  D 3.5) Bake drive at a temperature above the Curie temperature for theD       magnetic media.  This will guarantee that the magnetic patternF       upon cooling is random and unrelated to the prior magnetization.  H      I have no idea whether modern magnetic media have Curie temperatur= esH       low enough that the rest of the drive components would survive th= isH       experience, but quantum mechanics guarantees the randomness, if y= ouB       really get all the magnetic domains above their Curie point.    & > 4) Crush drive via mechanical means;@ > 5) Disassemble drive, sand platter surfaces, dissolve in acid; >BC >    (don't laugh, I've worked with somebody who had to do #5 while$ >     in the military) >L > WWWebb >$ > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ) > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:35 PM D > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET- > Subject: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wipe  >nH > We are decommissioning our 4000-100 and are in need of a secure metho= d ofH > wiping the SCSI drives prior to its removal.  Any Ideas or starting p= oints_ > would be appreciated?  >C	 > Regards0 > Tadd   --I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=J6 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DB Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesC http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University=    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:21:36 -0400N- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> / Subject: Re: VAX decommissioning/secure HD wiped, Message-ID: <3CC8654A.A6A9F7D4@videotron.ca>  
 Joe wrote:F > Is that necessarily true? sys$common:[sysexe]delete.exe isn't a veryD > big file. Assuming the necessary privileges and that it's entirelyH > memory resident when it goes to delete itself (safe bets) why wouldn't > it?"  I YOu can't delete an opened file. The file may disapear from the directory F entry, but the data remains with a "marked for delete". When you do an; ANA/DISK/REPAIR, only then will the files be truly deleted).  , here is a question to the file system gurus:  > if you do a delete/erase to a file that is opened, when you doE ana/disk/repair, will the file then be truly deleted and its contentsPL overwritten ? (eg: is there a "marked for delete" and a "marked for erase on delete" flag ? n the file ?)  L Also, if one does ana/disk/repair, and you have SET VOLUME/ERASE_ON_DELETE ,M does the ana/disk/repair do total erasure of data when it finds a file marked  for delete ?   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:52:17 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: sssslewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) + Subject: Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternative . Message-ID: <aa9j90$a82$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes in article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEFMENAA.tom@kednos.com> dated Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:12:03 -0700:; >The license fee is almost $8,778 with the CSA discount !!!S > A >Now the basic NAS license (which I have )will allow me to access C >the other cluster members from the VAX, but not vice versa.  So...   J I thought NAS included VMSCLUSTER.  NAS-150 doesn't allow my AlphastationsJ any quorum votes, but they can still serve their disks if the cluster gets: its quorum elsewhere.  Check MSCP_LOAD and MSCP_SERVE_ALL.   Another option is NFS.  ? >can I move one of the VAX drives, say dka200 logical disk$foo,cA >that has data on it to an LD container on one of the alphas and 1 >have it appear as disk$foo?  I Nothing's stopping you from putting your data any darn place you want andAE pointing disk$foo there.  But defining your own disk$ logicals is bad$J practice because if you actually mount a volume named foo the kludge could confuse matters.   Good practice is this:  H *  Physical device name (DKA100) is mentioned only in the MOUNT command.  E *  Logical device name (DISK$FOO) is mentioned only in definitions ofL- virtual devices, and maybe in backup scripts.P  H *  Virtual devices are the only ones applications are "allowed" to use. 5     $ DEFINE /SYS/EXEC FOO DISK$FOO:[FOO.]/TRANS=CONC$  H That way you can set up virtual devices to span multiple logical devicesD (via logical name searchlists) or to share a device (because the top directory name is different).   + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgA> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:26:28 -0400O% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>R+ Subject: Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternative./ Message-ID: <uch7lnb84a2ta8@news.supernews.com>g  K The CSA OpenVMS SDK kit includes a VMSCLUSTER license.  I don't really knowoL what, if any, license restrictions there are but if you're simply developing8 and testing in a cluster environment you should be fine.  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEFMENAA.tom@kednos.com...-< > The license fee is almost $8,778 with the CSA discount !!! > B > Now the basic NAS license (which I have )will allow me to accessD > the other cluster members from the VAX, but not vice versa.  So... > @ > can I move one of the VAX drives, say dka200 logical disk$foo,A > that has data on it to an LD container on one of the alphas ando > have it appear as disk$foo?g   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:28:29 -0700$# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t+ Subject: RE: VAXCLUSTER license alternatived9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEGPENAA.tom@kednos.com>e  2 I havwe that license, it is only for Alphas, so no help.q   >   -----Original Message-----. >   From: John Vottero [mailto:John@mvpsi.com]* >   Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:26 PM >   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComU/ >   Subject: Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternativeP >    >   D >   The CSA OpenVMS SDK kit includes a VMSCLUSTER license.  I don't  >   really know ? >   what, if any, license restrictions there are but if you're G >   simply developing$< >   and testing in a cluster environment you should be fine. >   2 >   "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message7 >   news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEFMENAA.tom@kednos.com...m@ >   > The license fee is almost $8,778 with the CSA discount !!! >   >sF >   > Now the basic NAS license (which I have )will allow me to accessH >   > the other cluster members from the VAX, but not vice versa.  So... >   >dD >   > can I move one of the VAX drives, say dka200 logical disk$foo,E >   > that has data on it to an LD container on one of the alphas andl! >   > have it appear as disk$foo?  >    >      ------------------------------   Date: 25 Apr 2002 20:21 CDTm' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) + Subject: Re: VAXCLUSTER license alternatived- Message-ID: <25APR200220214597@gerg.tamu.edu>   ' "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes...3; }The license fee is almost $8,778 with the CSA discount !!!3 } A }Now the basic NAS license (which I have )will allow me to accesseC }the other cluster members from the VAX, but not vice versa.  So...2  . A "client only" license, rather than a server.  ? }can I move one of the VAX drives, say dka200 logical disk$foo, A }that has data on it to an LD container on one of the alphas and m }have it appear as disk$foo?   Of course you could.  A But I probably wouldn't. It would be easier to just use backup to9C put all the data onto the other drive. You could put it all under a-C directory other than [000000] if you want to keep it more separatedoD from the other data. Then make a concealed logical disk$foo pointing6 to the new root directory, like "otherdisk:[oldfoo.]".  D The only problem with this is that access from the VAX will probablyG be significantly slower (assuming 10Mb ethernet on the VAX, even an old F 2MB/sec drive is twice as fast as the network) and you are not limitedF (other than by disk quota, if any) in the amount of disk space you canD use - the disk$foo location will suddenly seem like it is bigger andD filling it will reduce the space for other things on the same drive.   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 20:16:40 -0700/ From: chinachowchow@mailcity.com (Rick Nickles) - Subject: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Companyh= Message-ID: <ac4e3b24.0204251916.66dc5172@posting.google.com>a   Imagine the headlines ! E Imagine what it would be like, if we who are the ones who really loveiD VMS and want to see it prosper gathered together somehow and startedD our own company and bought this from Compaq or what ever the company+ of the moment may currently be at the time.v  C Then nobody is going to be telling us how we shouldn't be marketingi@ our product, and we can do everything we can to build up VMS and( really give Windows serious competition.  B Make VMS cheap or free, Port it everywhere, Do anything to attractE developers, advertise like crazy NOW or die.  You know VMS can be THE F internet platform of the next several decades, but someone has to have	 a vision!-L ____________________________________________________________________________   Rick   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:12:23 -07001% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>r0 Subject: Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.)) Message-ID: <3CC84707.F78DA3C2@rdrop.com>a   David Mathog wrote:y > H > So how is an HMO supposed to print anything from the central server to > a printer near an employee?d  G One presumes the "centeral server" talks to the printer via LAN, or, ifiF it's offsite, private WAN or VPN.  Else, all the other traffic betweenB the server and clients is also not secured, true?  If they're thatG worried about communication inside the organization's private networks,,F they've got bigger problems to worry about than medical records- like, for example, billing records.   F Network switches these days can be programmed to only respond to givenF MAC addresses on their assigned ports, blocking a random stranger fromB connecting a laptop w/o permission.  (Sure, some NICs allow you toD change the MAC address- but you've got to guess right.  What are the< odds?  At what point does "reasonable and prudent" kick in?)   > I've heard that one major HMOsK > is "solving" this with, essentially, 100% local printers - either hanging B > off the end users' machines or in some cases running off a smallM > servers which encrypted links for print jobs.  That's an incredibly painful'M > way to do things since it's much easier to drop network printers in than toe > configure local printers.s  " Yes, it is.  Someone needs a clue.  ? > Which brings up the big question - why doesn't anybody ship af@ > printer with a job upload (POST) function on the web interface& > and the same function through https?  G I can see an interesting case for a broader web interface for printers,sG including job summission and control.  A good use for embedded Linux orc BSD.  H But, I fail to see a need for a printer to have to worry about any meansD of secure or encrypted communication.  Not that it would be tough to4 add, given the above- I just don't see a use for it.  E Myself, I'd like a printer that could speak HTML itself- that is, I'deH feed it a stream of raw HTML and it would do the Right Thing(tm).  Ain't holding my breath.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 13:07:18 -0700g' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>30 Subject: Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.)+ Message-ID: <3CC861F6.EFD55A59@caltech.edu>B   Dean Woodward wrote: >   J > But, I fail to see a need for a printer to have to worry about any meansF > of secure or encrypted communication.  Not that it would be tough to6 > add, given the above- I just don't see a use for it.  D The US Govt. created the need for this by requiring extreme security@ for medical information.  With an https enabled printer a (very): remote central server could send patient data to a printer> (in a locked room, presumably) whenever it is convenient to do9 so, and it could send this info over the regular internetsD without requiring, for instance, encrypted tunnels between firewalls or dedicated lines.n  G The only real limitation I see is that with https the printer can only  K reject/accept connections by address.  It would be even better if a printernI specific key was also required.  (Picture the form in a browser: one slotfK to paste in the key, one to browse/enter the name of the file to print, andeJ maybe a pull down list to specify the type of print job if that's  known.)1 Without the key one can imagine somebody spoofingd@ a remote address and printing jobs to the printer. That could be? really bad news if some hacker sends bogus medical instructionsT  for his "buddy" in the hospital!   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:45:31 -0400n1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>s0 Subject: Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.)2 Message-ID: <3CC86AEB.9D20114F@firstdbasource.com>   David Mathog wrote:l >  > Dean Woodward wrote: > >y > L > > But, I fail to see a need for a printer to have to worry about any meansH > > of secure or encrypted communication.  Not that it would be tough to8 > > add, given the above- I just don't see a use for it. > F > The US Govt. created the need for this by requiring extreme securityB > for medical information.  With an https enabled printer a (very)< > remote central server could send patient data to a printer@ > (in a locked room, presumably) whenever it is convenient to do; > so, and it could send this info over the regular internet F > without requiring, for instance, encrypted tunnels between firewalls > or dedicated lines.c > H > The only real limitation I see is that with https the printer can onlyM > reject/accept connections by address.  It would be even better if a printeriK > specific key was also required.  (Picture the form in a browser: one slotoM > to paste in the key, one to browse/enter the name of the file to print, andrL > maybe a pull down list to specify the type of print job if that's  known.)3 > Without the key one can imagine somebody spoofing B > a remote address and printing jobs to the printer. That could beA > really bad news if some hacker sends bogus medical instructionst" > for his "buddy" in the hospital! > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu  A do you have a list of these printers or terminal servers that can = interface into standard printers that support these features?o   --   Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163a7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.coma Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)t 704-236-4377 (Mobile)n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:48:26 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e0 Subject: Re: Web based/encrypted printing (O.T.)' Message-ID: <3CC8C2CF.AE2B9676@fsi.net>a   Michael Austin wrote:X >  > David Mathog wrote:w > > E > > (Somewhat O.T. but some OpenVMS admins may be dealing with this.)e > >oH > > Pretty much every printer with a network connection these days comesK > > with a web server for administration purposes.  Yet I've never seen one=< > > that would accept print jobs through that web interface. > >d: > > Furthermore, some sites have a need to print documentsC > > securely.  Never mind the DOD and spooks, the medical community/& > > needs this badly.  There was a law> > > passed a year or two ago that requires very high levels of2 > > security on patients' medical information.  SoG > > how is an HMO supposed to print anything from the central server tobA > > a printer near an employee?  All print protocols I know of gos> > > across the net unencrypted.  I've heard that one major HMOM > > is "solving" this with, essentially, 100% local printers - either hanging D > > off the end users' machines or in some cases running off a smallO > > servers which encrypted links for print jobs.  That's an incredibly painfulnO > > way to do things since it's much easier to drop network printers in than toc > > configure local printers.  > >SA > > Which brings up the big question - why doesn't anybody ship aaB > > printer with a job upload (POST) function on the web interface= > > and the same function through https?  The drivers for thedB > > PC/Mac/unix/VMS side of such an interface should be completelyB > > trivial to write and the "server" (printer) side only requiresB > > Apache/openssl (ie free) and a tiny amount of CGI code.  Sure,D > > it would need more memory in the printer, but given the price ofJ > > memory these days it certainly looks feasible.  And all they'd need toJ > > do to make such a printer compatible with the higher security standard- > > is to disable http and only accept https.' > >g/ > > Or does this already exist on some product?l > >  > > Regards, > >) > > David Mathog > > mathog@caltech.edu > @ > How many people have access to the network with a sniffer in a > hospital?l  D Anyone with a "Sniffer" (do they still make LanPharoah?) and who can  find/access a live network jack.   -- s David J. Dachterap dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 13:54:24 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)D Subject: Re: web hosting3 Message-ID: <lmc2ZxV4j$oR@eisner.encompasserve.org>=  b In article <aa94qi$97s$1@newslocal.mitre.org>, sssslewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) writes:  G > As long as SCSI lives, you will even be able to upgrade your disks.  n  G Let us remember the programming skills most in demand for Y2K -- Cobol.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:46:22 GMT-- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)  Subject: Re: web hosting1 Message-ID: <3cc86ac7.116437748@news.process.com>:  N On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:45:38 +0000 (UTC), sssslewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A.
 Lewis) wrote:t  L >What's your favorite language for CGI scripting?  VMS has DCL, Perl, C(++),4 >and if you're willing to write a DCL wrapper, Java. >nE You didn't mention BLISS!  Or Pascal or PL/I or....  Any language can H be used to write a CGI script.  (Yes, mine are really written in BLISS.)   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/< New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 15:21:46 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: web hosting= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204251421.4a5f1be7@posting.google.com>m  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<je5gcucql12ltc086e5i9sie2nd4kufnj6@4ax.com>...OC > On 25 Apr 2002 07:04:39 -0700, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)d > wrote: > G > >we are doing exactly that ... vms is not security thru obscurity ...eF > >it is security, period.  VMS future is assured mainly thanks to theH > >defense departments use thru at least 2012, but w/itanium port coming > ? > Err, didn't you just predict that Intel will drop Itanium andc > resurrect Alpha? >   @ no, I said the Alpha will live in the chip ... it will still say Itanium 3 on it!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:37:54 GMTb( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: web hosting+ Message-ID: <3CC885A0.207FA002@pacbell.net>e   Michael Austin wrote:  >  > Chris Sharman wrote: > > K > > We're looking at web hosting in-house, to offer web access to ordering,e > > tracking, etc to customers. , > > The existing data & apps are mostly VMS.P > > We've used http_server on VMS for our intranet, and done a certain amount of > > proof of concept there.a > >a? > > Anyone care to offer any opinions, advice, case histories ?pP > > We need to decide whether we're hosting on VMS, linux, windows, or whatever,5 > > and if vms, whether to use apache or http_server.u > > I > > Security through obscurity is an obvious attraction of VMS, as is theeM > > reduced learning curve. Uncertainty over VMS's future is a (fairly minor)a, > > con. Any other pros & cons (tools etc) ? > >NP > > What sort of horsepower would it need ? Would an old 2100A 5/300 do the job,1 > > or should we look for a modern Alphastation ?  > >V > > Thanks,s > > Chris Sharmana > J > It will all depend on what your workload will look like, do you need RdbA > access, Oracle access, internet connection bandwidth, #hits perpG > day/week/month etc...?  I have a 2100A/200 that works reasonably wellb$ > for very small number of hits/day. > G > BTW, If you are looking for a contractor that can handle web-enablingyE > Rdb, give me a call - Both OSU and Apache-(preferred).  I have also-H > taken a canned application that generates a packing list and created aI > web page to use a Compaq wirless IPAQ as a picking system. Works great.h <snip>   Michael,M Wasn't it you who chastised me for "blatent self-promotion" a while back ? :)    -- k   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscol   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:42:04 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: web hosting+ Message-ID: <3CC8869A.F8AFA1DC@pacbell.net>s   Chris Sharman wrote: > I > We're looking at web hosting in-house, to offer web access to ordering,l > tracking, etc to customers.l* > The existing data & apps are mostly VMS.N > We've used http_server on VMS for our intranet, and done a certain amount of > proof of concept there.a > = > Anyone care to offer any opinions, advice, case histories ?fN > We need to decide whether we're hosting on VMS, linux, windows, or whatever,3 > and if vms, whether to use apache or http_server.V > G > Security through obscurity is an obvious attraction of VMS, as is the@K > reduced learning curve. Uncertainty over VMS's future is a (fairly minor) * > con. Any other pros & cons (tools etc) ? > N > What sort of horsepower would it need ? Would an old 2100A 5/300 do the job,/ > or should we look for a modern Alphastation ?L >   L I use FastTrack on a AlphaStation 250 4/266 and it works fine for about 1000	 hits/day.s  	 > Thanks,  > Chris Sharman    -- t   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscod   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:40:24 -0400 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>a Subject: Re: web hosting2 Message-ID: <3CC8A1F8.868B972B@firstdbasource.com>   Don Sykes wrote: > >Michael Austin wrote:I > > BTW, If you are looking for a contractor that can handle web-enabling G > > Rdb, give me a call - Both OSU and Apache-(preferred).  I have also J > > taken a canned application that generates a packing list and created aK > > web page to use a Compaq wirless IPAQ as a picking system. Works great.n > <snip> > 
 > Michael,O > Wasn't it you who chastised me for "blatent self-promotion" a while back ? :)0 >     D Because I have done this occasionally... I don't believe I have everE chastised anyone for trying to make a living.  In today's economy, weT need all the help we can get.t  F I think if you do a google search, would probably find other instancesA of this type of "blatant self-promotion" by me and a few others.     -- h Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163i7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comn- Sr. Consultant            Currently Availableo 704-947-1089 (Office)t 704-236-4377 (Mobile)o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 03:09:47 GMTl1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o, Subject: What does "affordable" mean to you?' Message-ID: <3CC8C76A.651029CA@fsi.net>   E I didn't find the message this evening, but this afternoon I saw (via C Google) a post which suggested that "affordable" = "cheap, shitty".   F Should this be the topic of another on-line survey? I'd really like toE know if I'm the only one who equates "affordable" to "good stuff at asG reasonable price" (read, for the "average consumer": "not more than onet paycheck").a   Whaddaya think?y   -- n David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems, http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:02:23 -0700 * From: "Alder" <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com> Subject: What have I got here0+ Message-ID: <3cc84570$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca>m  L It was to my great surprise today that an Alpha machine came into my hands -I gratis.  I'm hoping someone here can help me understand just what is I've I got.  There were no documents with the machine, but I did manage to gleanML from the source that it is a circa-1996 Digital Alpha Server 1000 4/266 with Windows NT installed.r  J The reason I'm asking here is that I've recently been toying with the ideaI of learning more about VMS (I'm a lowly user of an Oracle Rdb database or G two running on OpenVMS for Alpha).  Just to show you how much I have togK learn I'll ask this question: Does the presence of Windows NT mean that theeG hardware on this thing is incapable of running an OpenVMS system on it?o   Thanks,c AlderH   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:04:59 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>! Subject: RE: What have I got here_- Message-ID: <0033000061570807000002L072*@MHS>-   =0AAlphaServer 1000 4/266, huh.2  6 Check into the Hobbyist Program and Read The Good FAQ.   Things to do--  E Look at the Systems & Options Catalog Archives, May 1996 to be exact.iA It'll give you a list of all the specs, options and part numbers.   C The S&O states that these machines were sold with Digital UNIX, NT,m or VMS.e  ; Be forewarned that NT runs on what's called an ARC console;i! VMS and DU run on an SRM console.t  H Some machines were half-flash and only had room to load either ARC or S= RM,h+ others were full-flash and could load both.e  - I don't know about your machine specifically.o  @ Hope you're on good terms with your systems people, you're goingD to have to borrow a firmware CD and possibly the ECU config diskette6 (the ECU diskette image can be downloaded, I believe).  F Most systems folks are somewhat reluctant to loan these out as they're( both difficult and expensive to replace.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETd& Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:04 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: What have I got heret    H It was to my great surprise today that an Alpha machine came into my ha= nds -eH gratis.  I'm hoping someone here can help me understand just what is I'= veH got.  There were no documents with the machine, but I did manage to gle= anH from the source that it is a circa-1996 Digital Alpha Server 1000 4/266=  withn Windows NT installed.-  H The reason I'm asking here is that I've recently been toying with the i= deawH of learning more about VMS (I'm a lowly user of an Oracle Rdb database = orH two running on OpenVMS for Alpha).  Just to show you how much I have to=  H learn I'll ask this question: Does the presence of Windows NT mean that=  theH hardware on this thing is incapable of running an OpenVMS system on it?=     Thanks,n Alder=   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:21:22 GMTr" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>! Subject: Re: What have I got heres0 Message-ID: <SGYx8.346$W3.11531@typhoon.bart.nl>  L An Alpha 1000 4/266 stands a good chance to run VMS. The NT console softwareE allows you to change to the SRM console. It is one of the maintenanceh options IIRC of the ARC console software.    3 Alder <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com> wrote in messagel% news:3cc84570$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca... F > It was to my great surprise today that an Alpha machine came into my hands -fK > gratis.  I'm hoping someone here can help me understand just what is I'vevK > got.  There were no documents with the machine, but I did manage to glean I > from the source that it is a circa-1996 Digital Alpha Server 1000 4/266t with > Windows NT installed.e >eL > The reason I'm asking here is that I've recently been toying with the ideaK > of learning more about VMS (I'm a lowly user of an Oracle Rdb database ortI > two running on OpenVMS for Alpha).  Just to show you how much I have totI > learn I'll ask this question: Does the presence of Windows NT mean thath thetI > hardware on this thing is incapable of running an OpenVMS system on it?o > 	 > Thanks,t > Alderr >e >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:00:39 -0700 * From: "Alder" <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com>! Subject: Re: What have I got herea+ Message-ID: <3cc87d48$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca>r  J Thanks, Willian.  I've got myself signed up with Encompass as an AssociateL ('cuz I'm cheap) and downloaded as many FAQs and docs as I could find.  That8 should keep me going until the Hobbyist Licence arrives.  D Thanks for the pointers.  I'm sure I'll be a regular on this NG now.   Cheers,- Alder-  7 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in message0' news:0033000061570807000002L072*@MHS...a   AlphaServer 1000 4/266, huh.  6 Check into the Hobbyist Program and Read The Good FAQ.   Things to do--  E Look at the Systems & Options Catalog Archives, May 1996 to be exact. A It'll give you a list of all the specs, options and part numbers.m  C The S&O states that these machines were sold with Digital UNIX, NT,o or VMS.   ; Be forewarned that NT runs on what's called an ARC console;h! VMS and DU run on an SRM console.s  J Some machines were half-flash and only had room to load either ARC or SRM,+ others were full-flash and could load both.   - I don't know about your machine specifically.k  @ Hope you're on good terms with your systems people, you're goingD to have to borrow a firmware CD and possibly the ECU config diskette6 (the ECU diskette image can be downloaded, I believe).  F Most systems folks are somewhat reluctant to loan these out as they're( both difficult and expensive to replace.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETr& Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:04 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: What have I got hereu    L It was to my great surprise today that an Alpha machine came into my hands -I gratis.  I'm hoping someone here can help me understand just what is I'vetI got.  There were no documents with the machine, but I did manage to gleanmL from the source that it is a circa-1996 Digital Alpha Server 1000 4/266 with Windows NT installed.g  J The reason I'm asking here is that I've recently been toying with the ideaI of learning more about VMS (I'm a lowly user of an Oracle Rdb database or G two running on OpenVMS for Alpha).  Just to show you how much I have toiK learn I'll ask this question: Does the presence of Windows NT mean that the4G hardware on this thing is incapable of running an OpenVMS system on it?-   Thanks,r Alder=   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 15:25:19 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)! Subject: Re: What have I got hereE= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0204251425.6e375a61@posting.google.com>w  ] "Alder" <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com> wrote in message news:<3cc84570$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca>...rN > It was to my great surprise today that an Alpha machine came into my hands -K > gratis.  I'm hoping someone here can help me understand just what is I'veuK > got.  There were no documents with the machine, but I did manage to glean N > from the source that it is a circa-1996 Digital Alpha Server 1000 4/266 with > Windows NT installed./ > L > The reason I'm asking here is that I've recently been toying with the ideaK > of learning more about VMS (I'm a lowly user of an Oracle Rdb database or I > two running on OpenVMS for Alpha).  Just to show you how much I have to M > learn I'll ask this question: Does the presence of Windows NT mean that thenI > hardware on this thing is incapable of running an OpenVMS system on it?  > 	 > Thanks,0 > Alderr  D no, it means you have to build the srm console ... I suggest getting/ the latest firmware cd and build from there ...e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:10:50 -0400s; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> ) Subject: Re: where can I find older DECC?h$ Message-ID: <3cc85548$1@news.si.com>  ; >Well, Brian, its a good thing you aren't a lawyer, becausen+ >you don't know what you are talking about.f  G First, you didn't say you already had a license.  Go back and read youru post.  All you said was:  + >Looking for DECC for Alpha older than 6.0,r, >preferrably 5.6, not sure if there were any >releases between the two. >t1 >Is there a site from which it can be downloaded?  >t4 >Alternatively, if someone has the savesets, perhaps >they could ftp them to me ?  G Where does it say you have a customer with a current license?  Nowhere.h  K Second, it is still illegal to convey to a third party any distribution kitgI without explicit permission from Compaq.  Try reading the copy stamped on) the distribution kits sometime.l --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comeA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent-< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 15:09:24 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).) Subject: Re: where can I find older DECC?s3 Message-ID: <c4Y5lzBStekY@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  b In article <3cc85548$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:< >>Well, Brian, its a good thing you aren't a lawyer, because, >>you don't know what you are talking about. > I > First, you didn't say you already had a license.  Go back and read your- > post.  All you said was:  = The indication is that he had trouble with V6.0.  VMS layeredu> product licenses are always valid for running an older version of the software.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:49:00 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t) Subject: RE: where can I find older DECC? 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHBENAA.tom@kednos.com>,  F Brian, use some common sense, would I ask for the kit if I didn't haveG a license?  What would I do with it without the license?  Even if I gotnI a kit and didn't have the license, what would I do with it?  where is theo harm?m   >   -----Original Message-----D >   From: Brian Tillman [mailto:tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com]+ >   Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:11 PM- >   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com2- >   Subject: Re: where can I find older DECC?l >    >   ? >   >Well, Brian, its a good thing you aren't a lawyer, becauset/ >   >you don't know what you are talking about.t >   K >   First, you didn't say you already had a license.  Go back and read yourp >   post.  All you said was: >   / >   >Looking for DECC for Alpha older than 6.0,o0 >   >preferrably 5.6, not sure if there were any >   >releases between the two. >   > 5 >   >Is there a site from which it can be downloaded?d >   >n8 >   >Alternatively, if someone has the savesets, perhaps  >   >they could ftp them to me ? >   K >   Where does it say you have a customer with a current license?  Nowhere.  >   ? >   Second, it is still illegal to convey to a third party any - >   distribution kitC >   without explicit permission from Compaq.  Try reading the copy b >   stamped on# >   the distribution kits sometime.8 >   --E >   Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com:E >   Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comtA >   3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventt@ >   Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"< >          This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >    >      ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:38:52 GMT 0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski): Subject: Re: will memory leak program caused system crash?9 Message-ID: <3cc84d6a.1122301884@proxy.news.easynews.com>y  ? On 25 Apr 2002 06:53:03 -0700, wingwong@witty.com (wing) wrote:c  < >Will a memroy leak program cause system crash in openvms?    D Assuming that the program is not executing with elevated privileges, no, it will not.  U >Is there any user account setting/run option to set the max memory use by a program?   > Yes, several of 'em.  Look at the help for the SET WORKING_SET= command, for example, and the system management documentation  on process quotas.    
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.k   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2002 13:38:56 -0700& From: chessmaster1010@hotmail.com (JG): Subject: Re: will memory leak program caused system crash?= Message-ID: <dd3f0cb7.0204251238.77a85dfe@posting.google.com>d  d wingwong@witty.com (wing) wrote in message news:<873e96d6.0204250553.15fcf454@posting.google.com>...= > Will a memroy leak program cause system crash in openvms?    > V > Is there any user account setting/run option to set the max memory use by a program?  C To your second question:  Yes, the processes working set limits howaE much physical memory it can use at one time.  The process's page file20 quota limits how much virtual memory it can map.  E A process with a memory leak will normally start paging more and moren@ as it tries to manage an ever-growing-larger virtual memory sizeF within a fixed size working set.  When it hits its page file quota the process will be aborted.  ? To your first question:  No, as long as you limit the process'sn@ working set and page file quota to reasonable numbers.  But if aF process with a huge page file quota gets a memory leak the system page@ file can run out of room and the whole system will slow down andF eventually just hang.  A system crash (bugcheck) should not occur, but: odd things can happen when system resources are exhausted.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.229 ************************