1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 15 Aug 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 447       Contents: annexe #1 [#1168590]' Re: Apache execution of a VMS .COM file  C programming question Re: C programming question Re: C RT Lib Ref Man for VMS. Re: Cannot start DECwindow after upgade to 7.3< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion< Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion Disk for VMS Re: Disk for VMS Re: Disk for VMS Re: EMAIL I had sent Re: EMAIL I had sent Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-1 Re: Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-1 Re: Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-13 Re: Graphics adaptor (VCB02) for MicroVAX machines. 3 Re: Graphics adaptor (VCB02) for MicroVAX machines. $ Re: Help - TPU Global_search_replace$ Re: Help - TPU Global_search_replace3 Re: JetDirect Printing through Pathworks from Win95 . New Stuff at www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org2 Re: November 17, 1858 - Why is it important to VMS= Re: Please interpret: Digital 2100 Alpha Server A500MP 2/200.  Re: RWMBX State.$ Storageworks Command Console problem( Re: Storageworks Command Console problem* Re: TCPIP TELNET service on alternate port( Re: TS10/VAX Updates - DELQA now worked. Re: uaf  Re: uaf  Re: uaf  Re: uaf   V7.3-1 and TIMA for FC Minimerge$ Re: V7.3-1 and TIMA for FC Minimerge VMS Commitment EMAIL Re: VMS Commitment EMAIL Re: VS3100 questions Re: VS3100 questions Re: VS3100 questions Re: XFC 2.0 out in the wild " Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up..." Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up..." Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up..." Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up...* Re: [OT] Delay in msg posting? (annexe #1)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:32:40 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>  Subject: annexe #1 [#1168590] ' Message-ID: <3D5B3CF7.E7F42AED@Free.fr>   L What could cause a news server to deliver posts twelve hours after they were successfully sent to it?  	 Annexe #1   " Full header of a "delayed" message" ==================================  " Path: news.tiscali.fr!not-for-mail- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>  Newsgroups:  comp.os.vms/ Subject: Programming VAX in Fortran source code % Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:45:11 +0200 0 Organization: MCT (MORANDI Consultants Toulouse)	 Lines:  9 ' Message-ID: <3D577593.8F387480@Free.fr> 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-212-232-41-115.ppp.tiscali.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 * Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit N X-Trace: news1adm.admin.in.none.net 1029141908 701 212.232.41.115 (12 Aug 2002
 08:45:08 GMT) % X-Complaints-To: abuse@libertysurf.fr 8 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:45:08 +0000 (UTC)+ X-Mailer:  Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC)  X-Accept-Language: en ' Xref: news.tiscali.fr comp.os.vms:23865   6 Full header of a "normal" (i.e. instantaneous) message6 ======================================================[ Path:  news.free.fr!spooler2-1.proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!news2-2.free.fr!not-for-mail ' Message-ID: <3D5B3951.64F483AC@Free.fr> & Date:  Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:17:05 +0200- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> 0 Organization: MCT (MORANDI Consultants Toulouse)* X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Accept-Language:  en MIME-Version: 1.0  Newsgroups: comp.os.vms # Subject: [OT] Delay in msg posting? * Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Lines: 4, NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2002 07:17:03 MEST! NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.232.34.171 6 X-Trace: 1029388623 news2-2.free.fr 574 212.232.34.171" X-Complaints-To:  abuse@proxad.net% Xref: news.free.fr comp.os.vms:132570   = Looks like there is no more spooler in the first case, right?    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Aug 2002 16:19:08 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) 0 Subject: Re: Apache execution of a VMS .COM file3 Message-ID: <CdHi6JzSA2hX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <crx2nH7Fs9NQ@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  > Hi good folks, > O > I am trying to get Apache on VMS to execute a bit of DCL, and it doesn't want 
 > to play. >  > Here's the html  > 2 > <form method="POST" action=/cgi-bin/dclproc.com> > ( > However, the error log shows up with : > H >  malformed header from script. Bad header=%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized & > co: /apache$root/cgi-bin/DCLPROC.COM > J > It does the same when I feed Netscape with localhost/cgi-bin/dclprof.com >   C Looks like your command procedure had an unrecognized command verb  * problem before it spit out a valid header.  A A couple of things that I found helpful when doing DCL cgi stuff.   ? Start each command file called from Apache with these two lines  and it makes debugging easier.  
 $ set noon? $ write sys$output f$fao("!AS!/!/", "Content-type: text/plain")   @ If you want to do a "$ set ver" inside of a proc to see what is > going on, jacket the section with <pre> and </pre>, like so...   $ write sys$output "<pre>"	 $ set ver  $! code that does stuff  $ set nover  $ write sys$output "</pre>"   A This will allow you to see the code without the browser trying to A format it into one long string.  (IE will sometimes still try to  B format it, but I have found that doing a refresh after it is fully loaded will "fix" that).  B Also, on the subject of IE problems, I got in the habit of naming B my command procedures whatever.cgi instead of whatever.com becauseC IE clients wanted to do "different" things with files that had .com  extensions.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:13:16 -0400 * From: Brian Hechinger <wonko@4amlunch.net> Subject: C programming question 6 Message-ID: <20020814211316.B2843@marvin.4amlunch.net>  J if i OPEN a file in DCL, then run a C program, how to i access the logical that i have created with open?   -brian --   she manipulates my language			| ) the scion of a cunning goddess			| Fridge   and i *am* but a MAN				| Magnet) watching my gratuitous torment			| Poetry  not looking herculean				|   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:02:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> # Subject: Re: C programming question , Message-ID: <3D5B0BA6.6E9A3051@videotron.ca>   Brian Hechinger wrote: > L > if i OPEN a file in DCL, then run a C program, how to i access the logical  > that i have created with open?  M Look in google archives for comp.os.vms, there was a full description of this  a year or two ago.  	 when you  ( $OPEN/READ/WRITE myrecipe chocolate.data  N DCL create a special logical name in executive mode: "myrecipe". It contains aF special sequence which begins, if I remember correctly, with an escapeK character followed by a pointer to a structure in memory that is associated  with the opened file.   L I think you could simply specify "myrecipe" as a file name in your C program, and VMS will automatically  access the file.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:21:32 -0400 1 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccusker@charter.net> % Subject: Re: C RT Lib Ref Man for VMS / Message-ID: <ulm0gtm2fvsgb3@corp.supernews.com>   3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:3D596851.CC10EF65@aaa.com...  > Hi.  > I'v found two manuals calledC > "Compaq C Run-Time Library Reference Manual for OpenVMS Systems".  > = > One one the normal VMS doc page (in the new 7.3-1 col) at : ? > "http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/". That document is called ! > "AA-RSMUA-TE" dated "June-2002"  > . > The other is on the specific C doc page at :@ > "http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/c/index_alpha.html".9 > That document is called "AA-PUNEJ-TK" dated "Feb-2002".  > = > Both documents references VMS 7.3-1 and both are for C V6.5  > 5 > They look very much the same to me, but are they ?? ) > (Well, apart from the different dates). J > I think you will find that they are very similar, but, subtly different.  K The one with the June date is the most recent one, and, in theory, the most  up to date version.   J The two manuals reflect a change in the structure of the engineering groupL responsible for the C Run Time Library.  In the past, the alignment has beenL closer to the compiler, hence the Feb compiler version of the document.  NowE we are aligned with the base OS, hence the June V7.3-1 release of the 	 document.   C You will see that document updated as the OS updates in the future.   
 Brad McCusker ) OpenVMS C Run Time Library Project Leader  OpenVMS Engineering    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 22:15:32 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)7 Subject: Re: Cannot start DECwindow after upgade to 7.3 * Message-ID: <ajekq4$oh0$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  Q In article <3D59D9A5.CFAD4641@telocity.com>, Koloth <koloth@telocity.com> writes:   L :From what we have been able to discern so far is when DSM starts up it add I :a table to do the LNM$FILE_DEV search list.  However, the logical table  @ :does not exist.  It may get created later when a user runs DSM.  I   I'm recently aware of a problem report that appears similar, apparently H   DECwindows is getting confused by the additional logical name tables. F   The result is an ACCVIO stackdump within the X Server, with all the G   problems that such a failure can obviously cause.  The ACCVIO problem B   has been reproduced, and is being investigated by the DECwindows   engineering team.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Aug 2002 16:16:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion 3 Message-ID: <AeQ9N1Zr1o32@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3D5A5E62.32004.5D588BE@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes: . > On 14 Aug 2002 at 10:19, Alan Frisbie wrote:C >> The same for me!   If I do not see a price posted, I assume that F >> the seller is like a used car dealer, adjusting the price upward toE >> what he thinks he can get away with at the moment.   I will not do & >> business with those kind of people. >>   >> Do you hear that, HP? >  > It's not HP, it's SRI.   In the case of your supplier.   . I think Alan was commenting about HP products.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:29:05 -0700 ( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion - Message-ID: <3D5AD9B1.5746FA76@NelsonUSA.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3D5A5E62.32004.5D588BE@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes: 0 > > On 14 Aug 2002 at 10:19, Alan Frisbie wrote: > >>E > >> The same for me!   If I do not see a price posted, I assume that H > >> the seller is like a used car dealer, adjusting the price upward toG > >> what he thinks he can get away with at the moment.   I will not do ( > >> business with those kind of people. > >> > >> Do you hear that, HP? > >  > > It's not HP, it's SRI. >  > In the case of your supplier.  > 0 > I think Alan was commenting about HP products.  ; Exactly right.   I have been trying to get the prices for a < new software services agreement.   It is *very* frustrating.< The salesperson cannot simply give me the prices.   She must; submit a list to another office, which will then generate a ; quotation.   When she receives the quotation back, she will 9 fax it to me.   Because she is dealing with other issues, : is often out of the office, etc., it usually takes several; days to a week for one quotation.   We have been working on 5 this since early July, but I am hopeful that the next : quotation will have everything we need (and nothing more).  ? If I had the old Software and Services catalog and the E-Store, < I could have done the entire job in a day, without involving* any salespeople.   This is *NOT* progress!  = My questions are not complicated.   For instance, I just want ; to know if it is more cost-effective to get support for the = entire NAS package, or just the components we use.   Or, what = are the various levels of "Bronze" support, and their prices?   = It is also driving our purchasing guy crazy that they now use < the *same* part number for both the initial software license: purchase and the annual support.   Likewise, that "Bronze"> support has the same name and part number for differing levels of support.   7 I am convinced that they designed this process to drive  potential customers away.    Alan  + -- Alan Frisbie         Abuse@NelsonUSA.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:42:11 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion ' Message-ID: <3D5AFDD3.239C9CD0@fsi.net>    Chris Olive wrote: > [snip]H > (*) I can't help but wonder if you didn't take the Borland approach toH > your Charon-VAX emulator that you wouldn't make your profit in VOLUME?D >  Try pricing it at $99 a pop and see if every VMS ethusiast in theD > world wouldn't suddenly be running it on a spare Pentium III...  I) > wonder?  Same for Accelr8's DCL Lite...   G Problem with that remains the same as it has always been: try selling a C $99 VAX emulator on a $600 billy-box, and you're still stuck with a 4 $6000 commercial license fee for VMS (no compilers).  D We've been dangling the "volume-vs-margin" carrot in front of HP/Q's# nose for years. They're not biting.   H Too bad - their loss. Ours too, but we can make our money on other stuffG and leave them behind. Most of us would rather not, but hey - you can't G always get what EXACTLY you need, but you can usually come close enough 
 to squeak by.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:43:29 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion ' Message-ID: <3D5AFE24.B17E1DF8@fsi.net>    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > 0 > On 14 Aug 2002 at 2:05, Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > > Thanks for the confirmation that there _is_ a conspiracy in this > > regard :-) > E > A conspiracy requires more than one person.  SRI, as the owner, has 2 > total control over how its product is presented.  < ...but as a corporate entity, SRI is operated by a number of* individuals, i.e., "more than one person".   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:56:48 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion ' Message-ID: <3D5B0140.EDEF0FC4@fsi.net>    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > , > On 14 Aug 2002 at 8:31, Chris Olive wrote:H > > Definitely a big turn-off for sure, if not a conspiracy.  Given thisE > > rare opportunity to perhaps provide some valuable feedback to all J > > those of the world in Stan's position, I felt I couldn't resist. So... > G > You're preaching to the choir -- I had a shopping site up and working  > until fairly recently.  6 First I've heard of it. Who does your marketing? HP/Q?  @ > However, once you buy a copy of CHARON-VAX, it's still a steepF > learning curve to get the first system migrated.  Now that I've done0 > it dozens of times, it takes me an hour or so.  A Consider building a "how to" presentation (PPT or the OpenOffice, G Koffice, etc. equivalent) and selling that on a CD. Be sure to post the  price prominently, of course.   D > Having you contact me directly allows me to sell you an hour of myA > time, which will save you weeks of messing around by yourself. e  F So post the Charon-VAX price chart beside your own rate table and kill? two birds with one stone, build up good will - not to mention aME reputation for honesty, allow folks to make decisions quickly withoutVF playing phone tag for days or weeks, spending hours on the phone, etc.  < ...or did you not grasp what the earlier respondents posted?   > ItD > also allows an opportunity to find out which version might be bestC > (since there are now 7 different versions, with more on the way).M  H So, post a product matrix explaining the variants and the use/purpose ofF each and allow the educated, technical professionals who frequent thisH forum - not to mention your website and probably many hunderds of othersC - to make their own choices, as some seem to prefer. You can always.G reinforce and expand the available information in your person-to-personr
 presentation.(  E You'll never make enemies edifying your prospects (well, "never" must < always allow for the inevitable exception, I'm sure), unlikeH under-estimating your prospect which can lead to difficulties making the close.  ? > As for buying a "real" AlphaServer, go for it.  CHARON-VAX isi@ > available to run on Alpha, for those people who don't want the > Windows version.  E A Windows-version is probably fine where affordability is a key issueiF (likely 99% or more of your prospects), but I'd go Alpha + OpenVMS for* reliability, budget permitting, of course.   --   David J. Dachtera7 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:58:02 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversion.' Message-ID: <3D5B018D.FDD998AC@fsi.net>#   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > . > On 14 Aug 2002 at 10:19, Alan Frisbie wrote:D > > The same for me!   If I do not see a price posted, I assume thatG > > the seller is like a used car dealer, adjusting the price upward to4F > > what he thinks he can get away with at the moment.   I will not do' > > business with those kind of people.  > >? > > Do you hear that, HP?e >  > It's not HP, it's SRI.  G Doesn't matter - have you TRIED getting a price for OpenVMS or anything ) OpenVMS related off their website lately?e  
 Good luck!   -- s David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/)   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Aug 2002 20:51:49 -0700, From: colive@technologEase.com (Chris Olive)E Subject: Re: Charon-VAX (was: [VAX] VMS to [Alpha] OpenVMS conversionf< Message-ID: <b10654c6.0208141951.af08701@posting.google.com>  ` "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> wrote in message news:<3D5A44E1.22982.571E7DD@localhost>..., > On 14 Aug 2002 at 8:31, Chris Olive wrote:H > > Definitely a big turn-off for sure, if not a conspiracy.  Given thisE > > rare opportunity to perhaps provide some valuable feedback to all J > > those of the world in Stan's position, I felt I couldn't resist. So... > H > You're preaching to the choir -- I had a shopping site up and working  > until fairly recently. > A > However, once you buy a copy of CHARON-VAX, it's still a steep :G > learning curve to get the first system migrated.  Now that I've done C0 > it dozens of times, it takes me an hour or so. > E > Having you contact me directly allows me to sell you an hour of my rE > time, which will save you weeks of messing around by yourself.  It  E > also allows an opportunity to find out which version might be best 4C > (since there are now 7 different versions, with more on the way).2  1 Well, that could definitely be value-added, sure.   F If this really is a service with a market (Charon-VAX configs), then I? guess from your vantage point you WOULDN'T want SRI to take therE Borland approach, because there most certainly would be a significantgE rise, I would think, in how many people bought, attempted and becausej- adept at installing and configuring it... 8-)e   Chris  -----z Chris Olivee colive(at)technologEase(dot)com<   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:07:03 GMT = From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)x Subject: Disk for VMS 2 Message-ID: <3d5ac4eb.19468062@news.cable.ntl.com>  	 Hi folks,   F I've finally ran in to some cash so I can think about getting Open VMSB hobbyist license for my XP1000. Is VMS particular about which hardE disk it will install on. I'd like to get SCSI about 9gb should be OK. E I've got an old UW Seagate model but I think it was pulled from a SunmB system could this cause problems. I've looked on ebay but any disk2 with Compaq associated with it sells at a premium.  D Also i've got a 24x IDE cdrom from another system an LG i think will- it boot from this. No harm in trying I guess.t    E BTW i bought the XP1000 off of ebay.com and it came without hdd & cd.y     cheers,o     Peter Watkinsont% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com  remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:41:44 +0200s9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t Subject: Re: Disk for VMS ' Message-ID: <3D5ACE98.FE887FA3@aaa.com>   9 If you'd just like to have a VMS installation and not anym< larger data volumes, I'v found the 4Gb disks very attractive9 at the moment. I just made a deal today for 7 DS-RZ1CB-VW 1 (4.2 Gb) for aprox 10 USD each. Just OK, I'd say.s  < Well, yes, actualy I know the guy who sold them fairly well,% so it might not be an good example...t   Jan-Erik Sderholm.i  9 "peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" wrote:  >  > Hi folks,  > H > I've finally ran in to some cash so I can think about getting Open VMSD > hobbyist license for my XP1000. Is VMS particular about which hardG > disk it will install on. I'd like to get SCSI about 9gb should be OK. G > I've got an old UW Seagate model but I think it was pulled from a SunvD > system could this cause problems. I've looked on ebay but any disk4 > with Compaq associated with it sells at a premium. > F > Also i've got a 24x IDE cdrom from another system an LG i think will/ > it boot from this. No harm in trying I guess.- > G > BTW i bought the XP1000 off of ebay.com and it came without hdd & cd.o > 	 > cheers,  >  > Peter Watkinsonm' > peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comA > remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:17:05 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Disk for VMSe, Message-ID: <3D5AE4F1.3070405@tsoft-inc.com>  O Being a firm advocate of dedicating the system disk to just that, the OS, swap cN and page files, etc, it doesn't have to be very big.  I used to like 1 GB and P for the VAX it is fine, but Alpha VMS is quite a bit larger, and a 2 GB disk is Q a good choice.  Then get whatever you want for data and such, and even if it's a i2 bit iffy, you can still test it while running VMS.  Q 2 and 4 GB disks are easily found at almost ridiculously low prices on E-BAY.  A tN 9 GB disk will be harder to find, and the competition for it will be greater. @ Just get two 4 GB disks for less than the cost of one 9 GB disk.   Dave     Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:-  ; > If you'd just like to have a VMS installation and not any"> > larger data volumes, I'v found the 4Gb disks very attractive; > at the moment. I just made a deal today for 7 DS-RZ1CB-VW-3 > (4.2 Gb) for aprox 10 USD each. Just OK, I'd say.  > > > Well, yes, actualy I know the guy who sold them fairly well,' > so it might not be an good example...h >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.A > ; > "peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" wrote:c >  >>Hi folks,  >>H >>I've finally ran in to some cash so I can think about getting Open VMSD >>hobbyist license for my XP1000. Is VMS particular about which hardG >>disk it will install on. I'd like to get SCSI about 9gb should be OK.hG >>I've got an old UW Seagate model but I think it was pulled from a Sun D >>system could this cause problems. I've looked on ebay but any disk4 >>with Compaq associated with it sells at a premium. >>F >>Also i've got a 24x IDE cdrom from another system an LG i think will/ >>it boot from this. No harm in trying I guess.g >>G >>BTW i bought the XP1000 off of ebay.com and it came without hdd & cd.a >>	 >>cheers,t >> >>Peter Watkinsonh' >>peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comN >>remove <nospam> to reply :-) >>   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:54:06 +0000 (UTC)u From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: EMAIL I had sentn+ Message-ID: <aje5fu$p2u$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>M  v In article <EF1DC894691AD5118AF000508BB85FDE034CC7B5@AMCLVX11>, "Lucas, Edward A (SAIC)" <Edward.Lucas@bp.com> writes: >Hello >)K >I July 15, 2002 I sent an email "VMS Commitment" requesting information toq0 >info-net.  The email has now aperies in Google./ >I have gotten in lots of trouble of the email.m  K Sorry to hear that you have gotten into trouble for requesting information.    > ' >1.  I need to have the email removed !rK >2.  I was under the impression and the documentation states "INFO-VAX is alC >mailing list which is biderectionally gatewayed to the comp.os.vmstK >newsgroup.  This means that postings to comp.os.vms get automatically sentdC >to INFO-VAX subscribers and messages sent to the INFO-VAX list areiM >automatically posted to comp.os.vms" This is wrong if we are also sending toc@ >GOOGLE.  Since when is GOOGLE part of the OpenVMS users group.   O comp.os.vms is a Usenet Newsgroup. Usenet works by different newservers passing-M all the messages which are posted to the various groups they hold from one toe another.N Hence your message passed to and was stored on tens (hundreds ?) of thousands ! of separate news server systems. -  K The reason that the message has appeared at google is that google took overcJ dejanews which hosts probably the largest searchable archive of newsgroup  postings going back 20 years.y  l  6 Usenet does have the idea of cancelling a message see   A http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/usenet/cancel-faq/part1.htmle  I Unfortunatelty I've never tried to use that facility so don't know how to<H go about it. How effective it would be after all this time - and whether$ google honours cancels I don't know.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >s >Please contact me ASAP. >w >Edward A. Lucas! >Sr. VAX/VMS System Administrator  >SAICt >Phone:  (216) 525-7492o >Email:   Lucaea@bp.com  >D >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:44:52 GMTp( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: EMAIL I had sent-+ Message-ID: <3D5B1633.DFBA3BE2@pacbell.net>:   "Lucas, Edward A (SAIC)" wrote:b >  > Hello. > L > I July 15, 2002 I sent an email "VMS Commitment" requesting information to1 > info-net.  The email has now aperies in Google. 0 > I have gotten in lots of trouble of the email. > ( > 1.  I need to have the email removed !  N You can't un-ring a bell. The best you can do is make other noises which drown- it out, or just wait till the sound dies off.t --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com),
 San Franciscop   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:52:10 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>> Subject: Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-1 ' Message-ID: <3D5AD10A.15FA2A34@aaa.com>t   Hi. 9 I have a system (AS 1200, 512 Mb, 1 CPU) now running with 7 VMS 7.2-1. I'm thinking of putting 7.3-1 on it, much tot get the "new" XFC.  = Anyone seeing any special problem with the step from 7.2-1 to  7.3-1 ?o  ? The system is mainly running DCL routines in batch with smallero@ parts in perl, OSU web server(s), a number of different freeware? (DELIVER, MPACK/MUNPACK, ZIP/UNZIP, NBL). No interactive users,  apart from me (the sysmgr).   < Should I expect to having to rebuild any/some/all freeware ?   Regardsk Jan-Erik Sderholm.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:07:24 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")! Subject: Re: Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-1l8 Message-ID: <00A1272C.C273B26D@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <3D5AD10A.15FA2A34@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:d >Hi.: >I have a system (AS 1200, 512 Mb, 1 CPU) now running with8 >VMS 7.2-1. I'm thinking of putting 7.3-1 on it, much to >get the "new" XFC.  >,> >Anyone seeing any special problem with the step from 7.2-1 to >7.3-1 ? >i@ >The system is mainly running DCL routines in batch with smallerA >parts in perl, OSU web server(s), a number of different freewared@ >(DELIVER, MPACK/MUNPACK, ZIP/UNZIP, NBL). No interactive users, >apart from me (the sysmgr). >r= >Should I expect to having to rebuild any/some/all freeware ?h  H I wouldn't expect any issue with perl, OSU, MPACK/MUNPACK, ZIP/UNZIP, orJ NBL.  Don't know about DELIVER but really doubt it - it shouldn't have any! carnal knowledge of system areas.D   -- Alanh  O ===============================================================================O0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056uM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210nO ===============================================================================M   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:34:53 -0400i  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>! Subject: Re: Going 7.2-1 -> 7.3-1i4 Message-ID: <1020814222205.415B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  G On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jan-Erik =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?S=3DF6derholm?=3D wrote:    > Hi. ; > I have a system (AS 1200, 512 Mb, 1 CPU) now running withd9 > VMS 7.2-1. I'm thinking of putting 7.3-1 on it, much too > get the "new" XFC. >=20? > Anyone seeing any special problem with the step from 7.2-1 toe	 > 7.3-1 ?s >=20A > The system is mainly running DCL routines in batch with smalleraB > parts in perl, OSU web server(s), a number of different freewareA > (DELIVER, MPACK/MUNPACK, ZIP/UNZIP, NBL). No interactive users,t > apart from me (the sysmgr).  >=20> > Should I expect to having to rebuild any/some/all freeware ? >=20	 > Regards- > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.a  ? I didn't have any particular problems with any layered productsy9 going from V7.2-1 to V7.3, but I don't have V7.3-1 yet...   9 There is a potential system problem, though.  Some of the8J ECO's mangled a file called SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]VMS$REMEDIAL_OLD_FILES.TXT,= which I think PCSI uses to keep track of files that have been_= modified by ECO's so it can uninstall them.  It also uses theq= info to clean up files left by earlier ECO's when upgraded too a new version, apparently.  @ There was an ECO to repair the damage (VMS721_RENAME_OLD-V0100),< but I recalled hearing that some more recent ECO's again did the same things, so I looked...m  = SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]VMS$REMEDIAL_OLD_FILES.TXT looked fine forP< a long stretch, until it hit the ECO VMS721_LAT-V0100, where> it stopped having line breaks.  The rest of the file seemed to? be one enourmous single line.  I ran it through TECO (to a tempw> file), and inserted a line break at all the appropriate places
 (<FS00[$00 [$>$$ in TECO...)l and looked at the output.   8 The resulting file still has 3 lines with file names not8 including the "_OLD", which was one of the problems that6 the rename_old ECO fixed.  I think the result would be: that these files would get deleted if I upgraded to V7.3-16 (or even to V7.3 or V7.2-2, at this point.)  The three
 lines are:  @ [SYSEXE]APB.EXE                                 VMS721_SYS-V1200@ [SYSEXE]DEBUG_APB.EXE                           VMS721_SYS-V1200C [SYSLIB]STARLET.MLB                             VMS721_AMACRO-V0100g  = Without APB, the Alpha won't boot.  (Well, maybe it will boott7 with XDELTA, but I think that requires DEBUG_APB... :-)b  9 I don't know if re-installing the RENAME_OLD ECO will fixf: this, or if we need to wait for a VMS721_RENAME_OLD-V0200.   Urp?  8 P.S.  The original problem was mentioned in the VMS V7.38 cover letter.  Haven't seen the V7.3-1 cover letter yet.   --=20v John Santosf Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:03:34 +0100o+ From: "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>e< Subject: Re: Graphics adaptor (VCB02) for MicroVAX machines.& Message-ID: <3D5AB796.1090901@iee.org>   Alan Frisbie wrote:t  E > I would also like to install a VCB02 in a VAX 4000/200 system, so IsG > would appreciate it very much if someone would post this information.t    @ Back when I had a lab with VAXen, I added VCB02s to KA650, KA655? and KA640 based systems. I had rev D and above base modules and A never saw lock-ups. But then again, it's only relatively recentlyo< that I realised there might be an issue! I don't have a rev > matrix for the VCB02 (or even the VAXstation 3200) so I cannot& tell you what the latest rev might be.    A I am fairly sure, however, that the rev that fixed the bus lockupo? fixed it for all the fast processors (where fast = faster than s? uVAX II). So if it works in a KA650, it should work in a KA694.t  @ Also AFAIK, if it fails, it just locks the bus (i.e. the machine6 hangs). It does not (again AFAIK) let out magic smoke.   Antoniop   -- r   ---------------N- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orge   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 22:38:35 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)< Subject: Re: Graphics adaptor (VCB02) for MicroVAX machines.* Message-ID: <ajem5b$oh0$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  T In article <3D5AB796.1090901@iee.org>, "antonio.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> writes: :Alan Frisbie wrote: : F :> I would also like to install a VCB02 in a VAX 4000/200 system, so IH :> would appreciate it very much if someone would post this information.  B :I am fairly sure, however, that the rev that fixed the bus lockup@ :fixed it for all the fast processors (where fast = faster than @ :uVAX II). So if it works in a KA650, it should work in a KA694. : A :Also AFAIK, if it fails, it just locks the bus (i.e. the machinee7 :hangs). It does not (again AFAIK) let out magic smoke.r  C   My experience with the under-revision VCB02/GPX/Dragon controllert>   on the faster processors was also a "benign" Q-bus bus hang.  D   There are other timing issues which can keep a down-revision VCB02B   from functioning, as well.  (If you occasionally don't get videoC   synch when powering up or you get a bus hang, you've probably got    a down-revision module.)  D   With the KA650 (MicroVAX 3500, VAXstation 3200, etc) and the KA660E   (VAX 4000 model 200), you'll want (need) revision C1 (or later) for-D   the VCB02 M7169 base module and revision A2 (or later) for each ofD   the M7168 "planes" modules installed.  (Revision requirements for *   other VAXstation processors can differ.)    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:14:54 -0700s> From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My-Full-Name@intel-com.spam-ban>- Subject: Re: Help - TPU Global_search_replacel2 Message-ID: <3D5AD65E.FB3E4C69@intel-com.spam-ban>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  m > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message news:<ajbap2$19m12g$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>...r? > > "Alan E. Feldman" <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote in messagea; > > news:343f30ae.0208080811.2e367b88@posting.google.com...a > [...]yI > > > Wrong!! Sometimes TPU is slower and incorrect!!! See example at thet
 > > > end. > > >... > >aP > > Sorry, your example shows that EVE is sometimes slower and incorrect (if the; > > person who wrote the EVE code does not understand EVE).a >rB > Yep, I didn't understand that in EVE, GLOBAL doesn't really mean > GLOBAL. See below.  E     Comment 1) EVE's GLOBAL REPLACE command (well, really, procedure)fG is just layered on top of the basic REPLACE command (again, procedure).aJ Therefore, you get essentially the same behaviour as REPLACE _for_matches_H _in_the_current_direction_ starting from the current editing point.  TheG only thing EVE_GLOBAL_REPLACE does is to set a flag telling EVE's "workmI routine", eve$$replace_search_fail, _not_ to prompt at every match found.c< However, you'd get into a recursive mess if you just allowedG EVE_GLOBAL_REPLACE to _not_ prompt for searching in the other directionnD and just do it, whereas you'd miss a number of matches (in the otherG direction) if GLOBAL REPLACE just stopped at the bottom (of top) of theW current buffer.  So it prompts.   G     Comment 2) The EVE engineers _could_ have, as Peter remarked, set auG marker at the current position, save the direction, moved to the top ofvH buffer, done the GLOBAL REPLACE, reset the direction and repositioned toF the saved mark.  They didn't, whether because they were in a hurry andG didn't think of it, or because they thought it more consistent with thet way REPLACE works to not do it.l  F     Comment 3) As Peter knows well, EVE sources (the ENTIRE, BUILDABLEF CODE SOURCE) are available to anyone who cares.  Look at SYS$EXAMPLES:G EVE$*.TPU.  If you don't like the way EVE_GLOBAL_REPLACE works now, youCF can fix it!  Pretty easily I'd venture. :-)  Some of us have almost asH much TPU source code for our personal extensions and enhancements to EVE% as there is in SYS$EXAMPLES!  :-) :-)a  ?     Finally, it seems you have some (not unreasonable) personalsB expectation of how GLOBAL REPLACE _should_ work, but it is clearlyA documented how it _does_ work, which is not the same.  From EVE's  Help on GLOBAL REPLACE:l     GLOBAL REPLACE  L    Searches for the "old string" you specify and replaces all occurrences ofM    it with the "new string" you specify. Similar to using the REPLACE commanda'    and replying with ALL to the prompt.l [...]d    Usage notes:   J    o  The search begins in the current direction. If the old string is notI       found in that direction, EVE automatically searches in the oppositeaJ       direction. If the old string is found in the opposite direction, EVEJ       asks if you want to change direction and go there---press RETURN forG       Yes, or type No and press RETURN. The cursor is left at the first =       occurrence of the old string that was replaced, if any.  [...]e       Once again, comment (3)...           -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfielda! D1C Automation VMS System Support  kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comf   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Aug 2002 18:34:31 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)- Subject: Re: Help - TPU Global_search_replacep= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0208141734.47012791@posting.google.com>d  k "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message news:<ajdtkg$196adg$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>...o= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 9 > news:b096a4ee.0208131429.3c3e5281@posting.google.com....   [...]   J > > Some of my test cases worked fine without any need to explicitly go toH > > the top of the file for each subsitution command. I guess it dependsI > > on whether the new string contains the old string, like changing "in"aH > > to "bin". In which case, why the hell would one want an editor to goH > > back to find more occurences of "in" after they've all been replacedE > > by "bin". Yeah, I don't like that "found in reverse direction, goB > N > Actually, it depends on the order of the strings in the file. Take a look at > this example;h >  > 1 in > 2 thel > 3 in > 4 end  > @ > replace THE with WE, and the cursor position will be on line 2M > then replace IN with BIN, line 3 will be replaced, TPU will look to the endeM > of the file for another IN but keep the cursor position on line 3, TPU willlL > tell EVE that it did not find any more instances of IN, EVE will then haveK > TPU look back to see if there are any more instances of IN. TPU tells EVEaN > that it found IN on line 1. EVE then gives you the message that it found theH > string in the reverse direction but it does not know if it had alreadyE > replaced the string. The EVE programmers could have (*should* have)sL > programmed this differently by setting a mark where they started searchingJ > and then checking to see if the string is before or after that mark, but > they did not.     F I repeat. We were talking about *GLOBAL REPLACES* here. In 5.EVE I had. GLOBAL REPLACES, actually global replaces. :-)   And here it is again:u   $ TYPE 5.EVE global replace pat hat global replace other holdc global replace the a global replace in bin$ global replace system exciting write file .lis-5-eve1 exit    D Why do we have to worry about cursor positions with global replaces?8 You seem to have totally ignored those parts of my post.    F > > there?" question. I'll go to the top myself before starting, thank > > you. > N > If you would have gone to the top yourself then this would be a non-issue ;)    D You're comparing apples and oranges here, and taking my quote of outB context. When I am doing an interactive replace, I don't want thatE stupid "found in reverse direction, go there?" question. I know wherenE I start from. I started there deliberately. It is part of editing. Itg? is part of the whole point of having a default direction. It issC "normal" that the replace operation starts from the cursor positionoC and proceeds in the default direction. I don't want the question incB that case, and it is normal editing procedure to pick the startingF point, which in some cases would be the top of the file, in which caseF I would move the cursor there just like the case where I might want toC put the cursor somewhere in the middle of the file. Capeesh? That'sn
 the apple.  = The orange is the global replace. In a global replace, we are @ replacing all occurrences of the old string. THAT MEANS THAT THEE CURSOR POSITION IS IRRELEVANT. It doesn't make sense to do the "found F in reverse direction" question in this case. All occurrences are beingE replaced. And if the new string actually contains the old string as acD substring -- which is what prompts this question -- so what? Why the3 hell would I ever want to go back and resubstitute?e    E GLOBAL GLOBAL GLOBAL, we're talking about global replaces here. Okay?n' Did you skip that part of my last post?     L > > > Like Kenneth said, program in TPU rather than in EVE and you can avoid >  theseL > > > problems. This will also let you avoid the "abc-xyz, Abc-Xyz, aBc-xYz"L > > > problem that someone thought was a good idea. I do not recall if there >  is a0L > > > way in EVE to turn that off and I don't have the time to search for it >  nowL > > > but if I get a few seconds and I remember then I'll take a look later. >  > Actually, I was wrong here :(2: > I spent a few minutes looking at the code and I see that >     OLD        NEW >     abc        xyz >     Abc        Xyz >     ABC        XYZ >     aBc        xyz >     aBC        xyz > L > EVE will not replace aBc with xYz like I thought. I could not find any EVE+ > command that would turn this feature off.     D Thanks for looking. Though I'm not surprised that there is no way toA turn it off. It is useful for doing replaces in normal prose (for 7 example, LaTeX documents), but should be turn-off-able.5    E > > Thank you for clearing this up. But the example still shows a few- > > points I wanted to make: > > E > > 1.) TPU is *not* orders of magnitude faster than EDT. An order of.H > > magnitued is a factor of 10. Orders of magnitude are then at least aF > > factor of 100, minimum. I really doubt we'll get 100X out of this. >  > You did not show this. g    F I'll try it with "tpu" commands, but I still really, really doubt that3 it will be even 10 times faster, certainly not 100.Z    3 > I am not trying to prove nor disprove that one iseL > faster than the other. If you want speed then use Fortran, C, COBOL... YouF > did show that EVE is not orders of magnitude faster than EDT in thisI > example. If you want to see if EDT is faster than TPU then take the TPUaK > example that David Gray included in his original post and work from that.g    > You're not reading my posts carefully. I only said that in oneC particular example it took longer for EVE/TPU and said that in manyaF EDT was slower. The best speed factor I achieved for EVE-TPU/EDT was a, factor of about 2. Still a far cry from 100.  D I NEVER SAID THAT IN GENERAL EDT IS FASTER THAN EVE OR TPU. Though IF think you'd be better off using EDT to modify the first few lines of a really huge file.o    J > > 2.) TPU takes more work than EDT. The substitute command is trivial to@ > > do in EDT and is easy to mess up in TPU. Yeah, maybe the TPUI > > (/command) mode works better (than EVE commands, a la /INIT), but youiH > > have to keep resetting the position to the top and learn yet anotherE > > language. With EDT you simply write a "macro" of commands you areRF > > already familiar with from normal interactvie line mode editing. II > > guess EDT is sometimes better for simple tasks like this, whereas TPU=G > > is better for complex tasks that would be difficult to do with EDT.D > > F > > All the little things like needing lowercase string for blind caseH > > searches and the "found in reverse direction" stuff, all things likeF > > that, the style, I prefer EDT. But I do like that EVE asks me if I. > > really want to lose changes when quitting. > >-/ > > I guess the "EVE" commands, which work withmF > > EDIT/TPU/INIT=init-command.EVE, are strictly good only for settingI > > margins and the like for interactive sessions like the help suggests.E > J > I agree 100% with all three paragraphs under item 2, as long as everyoneG > remembers that the second paragraph is refereeing to EVE, not to TPU.i    B OK. Actually, there are other things I like about EVE/TPU, but notB many. I'd really love EDT to have an exandable number of displayed. lines. But alas, it looks like it's not to be.    tJ > Sometimes doing something in EDT makes sense, sometimes TPU makes sense,L > sometimes I have to use Fortran (and to keep other people happy; sometimesJ > TECO makes sense, sometimes Perl makes sense, sometimes SED makes sense,K > sometimes COBOL makes sense, ... C and every OS other than VMS just nevervM > makes sense). What David Gray was doing makes more sense in TPU than EDT, I,N > wouldn't do it in EDT because he was working with <ESC> characters. Paddy or    D I would think escape characters would not be a problem. Just use theA SPEC INS function to put them in the substitute command, save theaA file, and run it as the file-spec for the EDT /COMMAND qualifier.u    L > Kenneth or someone gave him the answer he was looking for, I just got intoL > the thread because it looked like another "TPU is bad because EVE does..."6 > thread was starting to splinter off the main thread.    A Did I mention the fact that we're talking about *global replaces*V here?D     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano- afeldmanNonospam gfigroupNonospam comNonospam0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 04:11:33 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> < Subject: Re: JetDirect Printing through Pathworks from Win95* Message-ID: <3D5B253A.3000700@qsl.network>   issinoho wrote:aF  > OK Folks, this one is really killing me; I've seen similar posts on   > this but nothing which works.  >F  > Situation... AlphaServer 1000 running VMS 7.1, Pathworks 5.0f & UCXD  > 4.1 LaserJet cabled to a DECserver 300, mapped to an LTA port andA  > spooled through a queue. Queue shared through Pathworks. Share ?  > connected to on Win95 box (native networking components) and   > everything works just fine.  G I would recommend upgrading your environment to the supported versions.   C Pathworks 6.x is much easier to work with and is not limited to the,I about 250 NT groups.  Advanced Server 7.x and OpenVMS 7.2 will allow you -A to use ODS5 format disks for greater compatability with PC names.h  I OpenVMS 7.3, and UCX 5.3 are the current release, and OpenVMS 7.3-1 will  > be available shortly, as has been previously announced on the  comp.os.vms newsgroup.  F  > What I want... To replace the DECserver route with a direct network@  > connection through a JetDirect card... Defined a host for theG  > JetDirect in UCX. Created a UCX$TELNETSYM print queue direct to porteH  > 9100 on the JetDirect. Print from VMS yields perfect printout. CreateE  > Pathworks share of queue (queue and share have the same name) withlF  > appropriate permissions. Connect to queue from Win95 box and try toH  > print. BANG! Full failure with an "unspecified system failure" on the'  > Windows print-driver side of things.A  E Pathworks 5.x is a bit ancient, the last of it I used was 5.0d, and InC upgraded to Pathworks 6.x as soon as it became available and never o looked back.  F  > Works with LAT queue, doesn't work with TELNET queue. What is going@  > on? Tried the same thing from a DOS/WFW box and it DOES work,F  > printing works perfectly. Is this a Win95 specific issue? I haven'tF  > been able to try an NT client but I suspect it will work. StrangelyG  > when the LPT device is connected to the share it will correctly show ;  > jobs in queue and queue state, it just refuses to print!c  D  > I've tried all the relevant tricks like creating a local LPTx.DOSC  > port and capturing it. I've tried attaching through NET USE thene2  > hooking up the printer driver to that. Nothing.  >G  > This is causing me grief with my customer. Where on the server can IuH  > find relevant logs showing me why the print submission has failed? OrH  > is the failure exclusively within the Windows box? Do I need to use aF  > Pathworks/DEC print redirector? If so which one? Have I got a buggy  > version of Pathworks or UCX?C  . You have old versions of both, and of OpenVMS.    > Any help MUCH appreciated.l  G As Pathworks 5.x is quite ancient, I may be misremembering some of the i
 specifics.  H I do not understand what your problem with printing to the TELNET queue E is, as the Pathworks clients do not have any idea as to what type of sG print queue is on the other side.  It may be a permissions issue where I: the client does not have permission to print on the share.  I Also some clients have restrictions on how long of names can be used for rF the printer share name, or what characters may be in them.  Since you D say that it works with DOS/WFW that does not appear to be a problem.    G One thing to understand about OpenVMS print queues is that they can be eH referenced by logical names.  This gives you great power in configuring  the print queues.3  G I usually name the physical print queues based on the printer type and nB location.  Then I assign a logical name to the queue that is used ) publically that is based on the function.h  B So I will have a printer queue named DEC_LN06R_LAB_PRINT, and the % logical name LAB_PRINT defined to it.   H All of the applications including Pathworks are set up to use LAB_PRINT,  I Now if I replace the print queue with a HP Laserjet, I will first create q" a new queue named HP_LJ_LAB_PRINT.  I Now all I have to do to redirect the print jobs to the new printer is to aH change the definition of the logical name LAB_PRINT in the system table.  E None of the applications need to be updated.  Just tell the users to  I pick up their printouts from the new printer.  The old queue is left for l/ a ready backup in case some problems are found.i  I Or you can set up a generic queue LAB_PRINT_QUEUES that feeds both print vL queues, and define the logical name LAB_PRINT to point to the generic queue.  E Now in your case, can use a system wide logical name to redefine the  G output from the working queue to the new queue.  The logical name will   take precedence.  I To manage the queue that you have hidden with the logical name, you will  4 probably have to define a process mode logical name.    @ If your printer is a PostScript printer, I recommend using DCPS % (DECPrint Supervisor) to print to it.d  E When you share a printer with a PC application, some PC applications oI tend to change the power up defaults of the printer with each print job, f* and thus distort the following print jobs.  G DCPS makes sure that the printer is properly set up for each print job a that is sent to it._  : The right to use DCPS is bundled with the OpenVMS license.  0 Search the "Ask the Wizard" web page found from E http://www.openvms.compaq.com for more information about configuring c	 printers.t    G For troubleshooting printers on Microsoft Windows drivers, configure a iI Generic Plain Text printer and map it to the share.  This will allow you  E to test printing capabilities with a minimum of modifications to the s output by windows drivers.  C If you are having problems printing to a PostScript printer from a uF Microsoft Windows operating system, use the Digital LPS20 driver.  It G has worked with every PostScript printer that I have tried, several of c0 which the vendors did not have a working driver.   -John, wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyh   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:59:52 GMTn1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>s7 Subject: New Stuff at www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org , Message-ID: <IMx69.30396$me6.4676@sccrnsc01>  I Ken put up a couple of my recent postings today. One's on VMS Security astL discussed by Mister Defcon9 Hisself, the other discusses how ZLE can be used? to help eradicate Taliban, Al Qaeda, and other subhuman vermin.u  J But wait, there's more... in honor of the 25th anniversary of Elvis' deathJ (recent parking lot sightings notwithstanding) and the 50th anniversary ofG my birth, I am field-testing an SKHPC Hobbyist License available to newEL subscribers who are hobbyists only. The discount is 75 percent, and for more( details, visit the aforementioned sites.   -- Terry C. Shannon Consultant and Publisher, SKHPCoK Reviler of Taliban Scum (And yes, I'll be flying on 9-11-2002 just to provet that Osama's a loser)l6 Director of Technical Marketing, Science Medicus, Inc.   terryshannon@attbi.com www.openvms.org  www.sciencemedicus.com   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:03:23 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman); Subject: Re: November 17, 1858 - Why is it important to VMSe* Message-ID: <ajenjr$oh0$3@web1.cup.hp.com>  e In article <aja6ho$19halc$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>, "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net> writes:s :iG :"Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragd% :news:aj97gh$rkb$1@web1.cup.hp.com...oI :> Note that the OpenVMS time display and manipulation routines allow foreH :> only 4 digits in the 'YEAR' field.  We expect this to be corrected in= :> a future release of OpenVMS sometime prior to 31-DEC-9999.a : J :Btw., anyone knows, why 57 is used as threshold between 19xx and 20xx, if :using a two-digit-year ?b  G   The EXE$GL_TRANSITION_YEAR pivot was implemented for several reasons,eF   not the least of which was a two-digit limit within the Dallas chip.  G   Once it was determined that the pivot was needed, the pivot value wasnG   chosen for several reasons, not the least of was the founding year ofoE   DIGITAL; this was the oldest date that was likely to be encountered H   within DIGITAL software and applications running on DIGITAL platforms.  H   UNIX and C permit dates as far back to 1970 (and up to 2038, if storedD   in a signed longword), and thus 1957 looked to be an appropriately    cautious choice for the pivot.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:40:49 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)F Subject: Re: Please interpret: Digital 2100 Alpha Server A500MP 2/200.* Message-ID: <ajepq1$oh0$4@web1.cup.hp.com>  x In article <aus-375A57.06564014082002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>, "Aus, Hans Magnus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:: :Please interpret: Digital 2100 Alpha Server A500MP 2/200.  1   No such system exists.  Well, not by that name.o  D :Does this mean that the server is a EV2 chip which runs at 200 MHZ? :What does A500MP mean?*  D   This looks to be a mixture of the old name of the AlphaServer 2100B   series and the then-new nomenclature for the system; as part of D   branding changes, the AlphaServer 2100 series was renamed from theB   DIGITAL 2100 Server A500MP some time after it had been available   and shipping.l  E   The old nomenclature had intended to use A for the EV4 core and 500pF   and 600 for pedestal and cabinet mounting, and MP for multiprocessor(   and MP-R for rackmount multiprocessor.  E   The current name for this box -- if I've guessed the identity of itsD   correctly -- is AlphaServer 2100 4/200.  In this nomenclature, theD   4 indicated an EV4, EV4s, or EV45 microprocessor; an EV4 core, andD   the 200 value tends to approximate the processor clock cycle value   (in MHz).t  G   The AlphaServer 2100 5/375 is not supported by OpenVMS, but all othere7   members of the AlphaServer 2100 series are supported.a  I   The internal prject name for this box is "Sable", while the AlphaServer <   2000 series -- a Sable in a smaller box -- is "Demisable".  E   The internal-only prototype Alpha microprocessors started with EV3,oD   which was the Alpha microprocessor core -- well, most of one -- inC   the CMOS-3 fabrication process.  I am aware of no EV1 and no EV2.e  E   The first production microprocessor released was EV4, which was the C   Alpha core in CMOS-4 (0.75 micron feature size).  EV5 uses CMOS-5hB   (0.5 microns), while EV56 is an EV5 core in CMOS-6 (0.35).  EV67?   was an EV6 core in CMOS-7 (0.25 microns).  I don't recall the :   feature sizes for CMOS-8 -- EV68 -- and CMOS-9 -- EV79.)  D   The EV4 at circa 200 MHz is slow by current standards; this system   dates back to 1994.d     Do I win the kewpie?  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:06:51 +0200l2 From: "Martin" <martien_2569@hot-no.spam-mail.com> Subject: Re: RWMBX State.e* Message-ID: <ajedoj$l23$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  ? It could be interesting to see how the amount of messages growst
 towards full."@ I remember using a little program to test the number of messagesF in a mailbox without getting them out. So the processes could interact= as usual and we could on the outside gather some information.   @ The simptoms described look al lot like the problems we had when? eventually we found that the reading process was build around ai5 WRTATTN AST routine but sometimes (one of) the witing 6 process(es) dumped a message in the mailbox before the+ WRTATTN was set. That way message never was ? discovered/read. After the supplier changed the reading programo; to use a simple QIO read with an AST completion routine thes system worked fine.h  
 Hope it helps  Regards, Martin Hoogenboom  A "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> schreef in bericht $ news:aje560$jkp$1@web1.cup.hp.com... >n? > In article <f936a854.0208140756.482941f5@posting.google.com>,g* robert_kersey@bat.com (Rob Kersey) writes: > H > :We have a system where some processes tend to go into RWMBX state now > :and then. > A >   That state can be entirely normal, particularly if transient.a >tI > :I am writing a .COM file that allows the user to enter the name of theuG > :process in RWMBX and then Copy's the contents of the MBAn: to a filem > :for later inspection. >aC >   I would tend to use C or C++ or otherwise -- and not DCL -- for 9 >   this.  DCL I/O is rather limited in its capabilities.  >tG > :I know this can be done with SDA to work out the MBAn: being used by I > :the process, and then copying out the contents of the MBAn:. However ImI > :am trying to create something more user friendly for system operators.m > B >   There is no particularly easy way to do this; you're rummagingA >   inside an application, and that usually involves cooperation. @ >   Depending on the type of mailbox involved, you might be able< >   to locate the particular mailbox using the logical name.@ >   Alternatively, periodically scan through the mailbox devices@ >   present on the system using $device_scan and $getdvi[w], and= >   find the one(s) associated with a process that $getjpi[w]e> >   reports as stuck in RWMBX.  Using $getdvi[w], you might be@ >   able to characterize the mailboxes involved, too -- possibly+ >   confirming mailbox size and quota, etc.  >/A >   And beware, these hacks can and do tend to come back to hauntiC >   you later.  For instance, when another application is installedoF >   and that application happens to see RWMBX and has matching mailboxB >   attributes -- but one that cannot tolerate the thievery of theA >   mailbox contents.  (These interactions can be nasty to find.)h > F > :In order to test this I need a simple C program that will cause theC > :process to go into RWMBX state. Does anyone have such a program?e >r? >   Write one.  There are examples of using mailboxes from C oni? >   the Freeware.  Write enough data into the mailbox without at@ >   reader, and the process writing the data will eventually see >   the RWMBX state. > H > :Obviously the ideal solution would be to look at the code causing theG > :process to go into RWMBX and alter it so as it does not write fasteriD > :than it reads from the MBAn: however the source is not available. > % >   It is the reader, not the writer.a >vI > :Another option would be to up the BUFQUO of the offending mailbox, butT( > :do not want to really do this either. >sC >   Applications, um, lacking in programming style will default theeC >   size and mailbox buffer quotas, meaning you can effect these on B >   a system-wide basis.  (Beware, as other applications that are,C >   um, lacking in programming style can encounter errors resultingo >   from the change.)t >s > :We are using VMS V5.5-2 > @ >   Please seriously consider version and architecture upgrades. > ( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------aL >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------t1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineeringf hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >t >t >o   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Aug 2002 15:14:29 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)h- Subject: Storageworks Command Console problem - Message-ID: <QVHPwA8+BBPI@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>i  7   I'm trying to get Storageworks Command Console (V2.1)e4 running on Windows 2000 to talk to a Raid Array 70001 connected to a VMS 7.2-2 system running Multinet.   4   I have the agent configured and running on the VMS3 system. The command console shows me the server and-5 lets me drill down to the subsystem where it presents 1 me with 2 options: Storage Window and CLI Window.R5 If I click on the Storage window option it sits theres/ for a few seconds and then pops up a box sayingo6 "HszWindow.exe has generated errors and will be closed2 by Windows. You will need to restart the program".  5   Clicking on the "CLI Window" option gives a similar75 result, except the box is titled "Applet Manager" andE* just says "the server threw an exception".  2   I am able to communicate successfully with other2 servers, but they are using RA200 controllers, not HSZ's.      Any help would be appreciated.  0   Are there any newer versions of SWCC available
 for download?u  M =============================================================================dB Malcolm Dunnett      Malaspina University-College   Email: dunnettE                                                      Host: mala.bc.catH Information Systems  Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA V9R 5S5     Tel: (250)740-6297   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:27:24 GMTo! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nz>1 Subject: Re: Storageworks Command Console problem & Message-ID: <3d5af442.1384084688@news>   Alas, not too much help here...f  * I'm running 2.2 of SWCC on my Workstation.B Got that from our local chaps here in NZ when we did some upgrades here.S; On the HSDs on the VAXes I've still only got the 2.1 Agent. E That crashes in a similar manner if I use the Storage Window but does  present the CLI window okay.& We're running UCX/TCPIP 5.1 on the VAX  3 It talks fine to our RA8000 Array but that's on NT.o  A On 14 Aug 2002 15:14:29 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolmh Dunnett) wrote:e   > 8 >  I'm trying to get Storageworks Command Console (V2.1)5 >running on Windows 2000 to talk to a Raid Array 7000 2 >connected to a VMS 7.2-2 system running Multinet. >g5 >  I have the agent configured and running on the VMS 4 >system. The command console shows me the server and6 >lets me drill down to the subsystem where it presents2 >me with 2 options: Storage Window and CLI Window.6 >If I click on the Storage window option it sits there0 >for a few seconds and then pops up a box saying7 >"HszWindow.exe has generated errors and will be closedt3 >by Windows. You will need to restart the program".t >n6 >  Clicking on the "CLI Window" option gives a similar6 >result, except the box is titled "Applet Manager" and+ >just says "the server threw an exception".  >t3 >  I am able to communicate successfully with othery3 >servers, but they are using RA200 controllers, notr >HSZ's.v > ! >  Any help would be appreciated.o >e1 >  Are there any newer versions of SWCC availableo >for download? >gN >=============================================================================C >Malcolm Dunnett      Malaspina University-College   Email: dunnett F >                                                     Host: mala.bc.caI >Information Systems  Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA V9R 5S5     Tel: (250)740-6297P >w >s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:02:17 GMT : From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <John.Gemignani@youknow.where>3 Subject: Re: TCPIP TELNET service on alternate port - Message-ID: <3D5A8AC6.25431C6B@youknow.where>   F This was in the release notes for V5.1, I believe.  It should still be true today.    -John     -  How do I create an ALTERNATE TELNET service?a  H     There is no clean way to do this, but it is possible.  Use a command     similar to the following:d  $         TCPIP> SET SERVICE TELNET2 -@                 /FILE=SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$REMOTE_TTY_STARTUP.COM -&                 /FLAGS=(LISTEN,RTTY) -+                 /PORT=10023 /PROTOCOL=TCP -c%                 /PROCESS_NAME="N/A" -l!                 /USER_NAME=SYSTEMn  A     Note that the /FILE qualifier must specify the name of a filehA     which exists at the time of the ENABLE SERVICE command.  ThisnC     file is not read however, so its content is meaningless.  Also,e>     the process and user names are not used by this particular?     service because the RTTY flag causes it to be ignored.  Thet@     USER_NAME MUST contain a valid username at the time that the     service is enabled.R  C     Note that there is no such thing as an alternate RLOGIN service.D     as there is usually no way for a client to select any port other
     than 512.e     Bernard Giroud wrote:a > 	 > Hi all,m > G > Is it possible to define a HP stack TCPIP TELNET service listening ont > alternateh< > ports (say 30000 and 30001) on top of traditional port 23? > K > I tried something like "set service mytelnet/port=30000/prot=tcp ..." butt > theiE > syntax of the command needs the keywords /user, /file. If I specifynH > /file=sys$system:tcpip$telnet.exe, it still starts the login procedure$ > of the user (in this case SYSTEM). >  > Any ideas? >  > Bernard Giroud" > Credit Lyonnais (Switzerland) SA   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 22:35:03 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>1 Subject: Re: TS10/VAX Updates - DELQA now worked.e+ Message-ID: <ajelun0jd1@enews4.newsguy.com>c  + In comp.sys.dec sword7@speakeasy.org wrote:pJ > After I fixed a bug, my DELQA emulation now worked very reliable withoutE > any problems.  On OpenVMS 7.2, I was able downloaded a 34 megabytestK > file into my emulator and it took 47 seconds to complete at constant 800 t. > KB/sec or 8 Mbps rate (Ethernet-like speed).  E Very cool!  While I'll continue to run VMS native on my Alpha's, thisrI offers some interesting possibilities for some VAX only software I've got ; (I've plenty of VAXen, but none of them are normally on).  l  G Now for my question, have you attempted to setup a Cluster, either with 1 another emulated VAX or with a real VAX or Alpha?p  C BTW, you might want to look into upgrading to TCPIP 5.1 if you can.    			Zaner   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:43:24 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> Subject: Re: uafJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208142134470.13487-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  0 On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Kenneth H. Fairfield wrote:  $ >+"Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" wrote: >+3 >+> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Kenneth H. Fairfield wrote:x [...]6E >+> >+     definition, the logical still needs to be defined /EXEC in.= >+> >+     whatever table you define it in for it to be used., >+>o >+>  Disagree !w >+>cC >+>  The problem has something with Davids question: both DIRECTORYe; >+> and AUTHORIZE are "normal" (means: user mode) programm;v [...]o? >+    It's really very easy to test your assertion.  And if youdB >+do, you'll find you are mistaken (as BAart Zorn also noted). :-)  ,  As Alan say - you know the proper answer :)>  Excuse me, have been out-of-contact for some day, but writing@ my words I was sure that AUTHORIZE is a "normal" (not protected,B please not mislead "not privileged" - as installed with privilege), executable for some tests not so long ago :)  @ >+    When I log into a particular very-non-homogeneous cluster,B >+after certain tests in my LOGIN.COM, I wind up with this (excuse >+the line wrap):- >+? >+-------------------------------------------------------------@ >+$ sho log /ful sysuaff> >+   "SYSUAF" [exec] = "PTD$CLU_FAST:[PTDFASTFILES]SYSUAF.DAT" >+        (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)h? >+   "SYSUAF" [exec,no_alias] = "SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SYSUAF.DAT"s >+        (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) >+$n? >+-------------------------------------------------------------p >+- >+Believe me, the process table logical worksr  ?  Be aware for answer of important question: for *what* works ?? 8  For user managing - yes. For users login process - not,= think a moment: HOW LOGINOUT can use SYSUAF defined elsewheree; except system table *before* the process context (includinga? group number (-:)!) and user info required to create job table)f is set ?>  And the origonal poster has problem with user login, not user management... :)    Regards - Gotfryd   --  E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================G   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:39:18 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> Subject: Re: uafJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208142143340.13487-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  % On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Bart Zorn wrote:c  " >+Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists wrote:3 >+> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Kenneth H. Fairfield wrote:F [...]wD >+>>+P.S. The supervisor mode definition of SYSUAF in your Job tableD >+>>+     will be ignored.  If you want ot override the System tableD >+>>+     definition, the logical still needs to be defined /EXEC in< >+>>+     whatever table you define it in for it to be used. >+>  >+>  Disagree !o [...] I >+I disagree with you here. A user mode program can request in its calls sK >+to the $TRNLNM system service that at least an EXEC mode logical name be 0  E  Really, you are here right (except the disagreement, of course :)!).d  D  But your description misses little the problem: for "typical usage D of logname" the programm does *nothing* to check *any* logname; the C name (as I personally say: "without knowledge and agreement of the 0G code" :)) is substituted by OS (including kernel, RMS and other parts).r  @  With AUTHORIZE *all* looks like as this "typical process" is in? place - and *only* this (means: nothing suggest, that AUTHORIZEa) may use code with explicit tranlsation) !s:  As in other "ordinary code" probably $TRNLNM (or *LOG) is8 *not* used. Has anyone access to listing and will check  if I am right ?   G >+used in the translation. There is no relationship between the access RK >+mode of a logical name and the image that makes use of it other than the gA >+defaults which apply to the $CRELNM and $TRNLNM system service.0  %  IMO (erm...AFAIK :)) you are wrong !e@  Excuse me if as "the defaults" you mean all what I write below:@ but because *probably* SETP0 calls elevated access modes (CMKRNL< installed) but AUTHORIZE does not (only SYSPRV required, andD no privilege - except AUDIT - installed) then the little differrence$ is important... :) IMO, of course :)  ?  When a code is executed with elevated access mode (S,E,K) then-B described before automatic OS usage (of lognames) is *protected* !>  That means - logicals with lowers access modes are *ignored*;@ makes much sense to protect the OS - inner mode (K,E,partly [S])@ code must be protected from be "faked" by outer mode (especially U[ser]) one.  B  To be enought precise: as "elevated access mode" I mean protected; code (including INSTALL /PROTECT) and code run in K,E modes59 thru CMKRNL and CMEXEC call. Supervisor mode - as we know7= - is something difficult case as not fully supported (in VMS,h; of course) for user written image, regardless the fact that)= can be used (at least thru CMEXEC) and the logname protectioni alghoritm also works.t  ?  Be sure - you *cannot* "fake" environment for properly written 5 protected routines: user & super mode logicals cannot D "say" any SYS$SHARE:*P[1] routine that your login directory is other6 that the system (from UAF LGI field) authorized one :)< [1] - means the images, where last "P" means "Protected", of
  course :)  @  The last word: when code uses explicite translation of lognames9 then it must be *carefully* checked to get the same levelt> of protection, where VMS gives you for free with the automatic? logname(s) substitution... ! Here is not only the code/lognames C mode comparison but also b.ex. mode comparison for neested logicalsu< (when a logical is translated to EXEC mode logical - the theE *next* translation must be EXEC or KERNEL one, even if for *previous*l0 logicals SUPERVISOR and/or USER may be allowed).?  Exceptions for the general rules, where I know in VMS, (means:aB code where explicitly translates logicals) uses *very restrictive*D requirement: a example is discuised (in the thread) SETP0 & LOGINOUTE (only system table, at least executive mode, and end of possiblites).aE  IMO the reason is *not* for logical names usage difficulty themself,e3 but for proper ("security hole free") protection :)c    Regards - Gotfryd: (and congratulation for all, where can read my English :))   -- mE ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEl. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================X   ------------------------------  , Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:55:40 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> Subject: Re: uafJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0208142239380.13487-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>  & On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, John Laird wrote:  H >+On 13 Aug 2002 08:39:14 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) [...] I >+>> I would think, though, that logging in (loginout.exe, I would think) I >+>> and setting the password (setp0.exe) would honor only EXECUTIVE moden& >+>> logical names. But not AUTHORIZE. >+>eE >+>An outer mode logical name that is honored by AUTHORIZE but not bye$ >+>LOGINOUT seems to invite trouble. >+L >+But it does allow you to examine authorization files on other nodes (in orK >+out of a cluster), as well as other copies on the same node.  It would bey5 >+ridiculously restrictive if this were not the case.u    100% agreement.  A  My warning - and *little* agreement, that warning when AUTHORIZE ? is started in environment differrent that the system one (means ? "the real" SYSUAF & RIGHTSLIST) is the possiblity to corruption A of RIGHLIST, system memory and AUTHORIZE identifier(s) integrity.b  <  To be "user friendly" :) AUTHORIZE modifies *both* the file> (RIGHTSLIST) and the system memory (identifiers loaded/enabled as system and process lists).m  ?  When for privileged environment AUTHORIZE is run while "faked"a: RIGHTSLIST can be modified - then somewhere we can get the> "in system memory" and RIGHTSLIST rights lists :) out of sync,7 and be surprised (painfully) after system reboot... The 7 same applies when only one of SYSUAF/RIGHTSLIST pair isr "substituted".  A  Please, CQ (err.... HP !), do not change the current behaviour:  ! only *warning* may be expected !!a%  With little warning John is right :)rD (and "the best" is - for SUSYAF copies and remote nodes - AUTHORIZE $  usage from non-privileged username;>  then any "in memory" identifiers are safe :) and remote nodes7  can be checked with PROXies to privileged usernames !)o    Regards - Gotfryd   -- eE =====================================================================tF $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEi. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================o   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Aug 2002 05:23:16 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: uaf- Message-ID: <878z39m8xn.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   6 John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> writes:  H > On 13 Aug 2002 08:39:14 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) > wrote:  cE > >An outer mode logical name that is honored by AUTHORIZE but not byi$ > >LOGINOUT seems to invite trouble.   E > But it does allow you to examine authorization files on other nodes-E > (in or out of a cluster), as well as other copies on the same node..A > It would be ridiculously restrictive if this were not the case.p  oB But it is very usefull for CONV/SHARE a couple of SYSUAF.DATs intoB your own directory, then work on it and replace and re-boot in one hit.   -- -< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:39:57 -0400n From: norm.raphael@metso.com) Subject: V7.3-1 and TIMA for FC Minimerges? Message-ID: <OF73FF530F.02C431FB-ON85256C15.00715B51@metso.com>   + Is the TIMA for FC Minimerge part of V7.3-1d/ or is that later (and of course, if later, whens0 (which I do not expect is known, but might be))? -Normn   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:55:15 GMTo/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)g- Subject: Re: V7.3-1 and TIMA for FC Minimergee- Message-ID: <PIcMvRfWLYQo@cuebid.zko.dec.com>     norm.raphael@metso.com writes:n > - > Is the TIMA for FC Minimerge part of V7.3-1u1 > or is that later (and of course, if later, wheno2 > (which I do not expect is known, but might be))? > -Norm   A The plan (always subject to change) is to provide HSG80 minimerge=C via an ECO kit for V7.3-1 at some point in the future.  It will not=C be on the V7.3-1 kit for a very good reason -- we haven't completedn the work yet!                      J My best guess is some time in the late fall.  I can't be any more specificK because we haven't finished writing all the code yet.  For those of you whoeO subscribe to the source listings (is the [shadowing] facility on the listings?):I SHDRIVER.MAR has grown by over 1,000 blocks, with correspondingly similarwI growth in SHD_MERGE, SHD_LOCK, SHD_INIT, etc . . .  This is a substantialk
 modification!h  $ It'll be worth the wait, though! :-)  d -- m  N Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.comm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:31:42 -0500s4 From: "Lucas, Edward A (SAIC)" <Edward.Lucas@bp.com> Subject: VMS Commitment EMAILo? Message-ID: <EF1DC894691AD5118AF000508BB85FDE034CC7B7@AMCLVX11>0   Hello Everyone  6 On July 15, 2002 I had sent an email "VMS Commitment".  E The email was in no way intended to BASH or paint a bad picture about F management.  The wording I used was inappropriate. I sent the email to0 receive assistance and information to assist me.  K I do have a serious project that details eliminating the VMS environment. Ie? am not happy about the prospect of loosing the VMS environment.sG I cannot be biased  regarding the project.  I will be open to all othernI platforms. I do need to sell management on the advantages of staying witho8 the VMS environment and not switching to a new platform.  I I apologize to everyone that I have offended, I apologize to BP oil and Iw apologize to management.  B I received very good assistance from HP and from numerous users.    F The representatives from HP have contacted me via email and phone. TheK assistance HP provided has helped me considerably.  My thanks go out to allv at HP.   Edward A. Lucasa  Sr. VAX/VMS System Administrator SAIC Phone:  (216) 525-7492 Email:   Lucaea@bp.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:22:44 -0400=- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y! Subject: Re: VMS Commitment EMAIL , Message-ID: <3D5ACA0D.B717CFDA@videotron.ca>  M > I do have a serious project that details eliminating the VMS environment. I0A > am not happy about the prospect of loosing the VMS environment.1  N I am not surprised. I lost a contract because some consultants from your largeI consulting outfit had advised my customer to stay away from VMS. Not only8+ Gartner has/had dire predictions about VMS.h  G I just find it so ironic that it is SAIC that runs the mailing list andJ gateway to comp.os.vms   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:35:41 -0600u From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>  Subject: Re: VS3100 questions 3 Message-ID: <fhy69.1072$3s4.160@news.webusenet.com>    Bart Z. Lederman wrote:Ee > In article <d0141774.0208140142.c304c40@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes:C > 2 >>Is it possible to tell the following from VMS... >>5 >>(a) Which model of VS3100 I have (10/20/30/40,etc.)e4 >>(b) Which graphic board is fitted (Mono, SPX, GPX) >  > : > If it's a recent version of OpenVMS, try $SHOW CPU /FULL > " > This is what I see on my system: >  > SYS_prf31b> sho cpu/fu > # > PRF31B, a VAXstation 3100-M76/SPXlJ > Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded. > " Odd, on a 3100/10, VMS 5.5-2 I get  I %SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHCPU, CPU does not exist, system is not a multiprocessor, h or multiprocessing is disabled  # > plus some additional information.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:20:17 +0200o9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t Subject: Re: VS3100 questionsi' Message-ID: <3D5ABB81.5751FC43@aaa.com>a  5 Well, he sad "If it's a *RECENT* version of OpenVMS".o That does not include 5.5-2...   Jan-Erik Sderholm..   Kevin Handy wrote: >  > Bart Z. Lederman wrote:eg > > In article <d0141774.0208140142.c304c40@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes:u > > 4 > >>Is it possible to tell the following from VMS... > >>7 > >>(a) Which model of VS3100 I have (10/20/30/40,etc.)-6 > >>(b) Which graphic board is fitted (Mono, SPX, GPX) > >  > > < > > If it's a recent version of OpenVMS, try $SHOW CPU /FULL > > $ > > This is what I see on my system: > >a > > SYS_prf31b> sho cpu/fu > > % > > PRF31B, a VAXstation 3100-M76/SPXoL > > Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded. > > $ > Odd, on a 3100/10, VMS 5.5-2 I get > J > %SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHCPU, CPU does not exist, system is not a multiprocessor,  > or multiprocessing is disabled > % > > plus some additional information.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:56:10 -0400f( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: VS3100 questions , Message-ID: <3D5AE00A.1000804@tsoft-inc.com>  P Well, it really depends upon your view of *RECENT*, doesn't it?  Lots of things I are *RECENT* with respect to dinosaurs, or the Egyptian pyramids, or ....t   Just in that mood.  :-)g  ) Dave, who advocates a minimum of VMS V7.2-     Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:a  7 > Well, he sad "If it's a *RECENT* version of OpenVMS".S  > That does not include 5.5-2... >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.  >  > Kevin Handy wrote: >  >>Bart Z. Lederman wrote:s >>f >>>In article <d0141774.0208140142.c304c40@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes: >>>  >>>n4 >>>>Is it possible to tell the following from VMS... >>>>7 >>>>(a) Which model of VS3100 I have (10/20/30/40,etc.)/6 >>>>(b) Which graphic board is fitted (Mono, SPX, GPX) >>>> >>>s; >>>If it's a recent version of OpenVMS, try $SHOW CPU /FULLt >>>w# >>>This is what I see on my system:  >>>n >>>SYS_prf31b> sho cpu/fue >>>u$ >>>PRF31B, a VAXstation 3100-M76/SPXK >>>Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.o >>>  >>>k$ >>Odd, on a 3100/10, VMS 5.5-2 I get >>J >>%SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHCPU, CPU does not exist, system is not a multiprocessor,  >>or multiprocessing is disabled >> >>$ >>>plus some additional information. >>>r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:20:25 -0400)  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>$ Subject: Re: XFC 2.0 out in the wild4 Message-ID: <1020814191629.415C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On 14 Aug 2002, Patrick Young wrote:  z > vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote in message news:<3d59f4c9.0@news.uni-konstanz.de>... > >  > > Vols in Full XFC mode 0$% > > Vols in VIOC Compatibility mode 1  > > M > > This is my result on a stand alone machine, too. Why doesn't it switch toF > > Full XFC mode??M >  E$ > Documentation change :-) for 7.3-1 > K > (19) Volumes in VIOC compatible mode   The number of volumes being cachedoL > by XFC that are using the VCC caching protocol. As of OpenVMS Version 7.3,% > XFC uses only VCC caching protocol.  > B > (9) Volumes in Full XFC mode   Reserved for Compaq. Should be 0. > 2 > Very confusing for users with 7.3 documentation. > G > I've installed the new patch on my 7.3 PC164 at home (but then it wast > working already).d > F > I like the idea of going production, however we started our academicF > session two weeks ago, so will have to wait until mid session break.   Still confusing :-)=  A I assumed you have to reset vcc_flags to 2 (the default on Alpha)OB if you had explicitly set it to 1 as per recommendation to disable the XFC.  - Installing the patch didn't change VCC_FLAGS.=   -- = John Santos= Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:04:44 +0200r+ From: Roland Barmettler <rob@bbp.ch.remove>-+ Subject: Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up...@7 Message-ID: <20020814200444.4f2364fc.rob@bbp.ch.remove>o   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  >t8 > This was answered earlier today by Patric Young. Check- > the thread "Re: XFC 2.0 out in the wild"...i > ; > Short answer : "All is just fine, see the the 7.3-1 docs"f   Found it! ;-)  Thank's a lot!t   Greetings, Rolandi  F --------------- bbp - Biveroni Batschelet Partners AG ----------------:              Bahnhofstrasse 28, CH-5401 Baden, SwitzerlandF ----------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 02 23:00:55 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)a+ Subject: Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up...u) Message-ID: <FpJ9tsWg4lms@elias.decus.ch>l  d In article <aa5ec19e.0208140518.6ba0090d@posting.google.com>, JKoska@bender.com (John Koska) writes:\ > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<fTXCH$N21Tex@elias.decus.ch>...m >> In article <8debc3ff.0208130531.4945f18d@posting.google.com>, ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell) writes:cE >> > The long awaited XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up and can be found atR >> > (watch for wrapping): >> > ab >> > http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/dec-axpvms-vms73_xfc-v0200--4.README >> > lI >> > Who's going to be first to put it into production and report back toe >> > the rest of us? >>  : >> Visions of everyone waiting for everyone else here :-)  >> __ 
 >> Paul Sturen >> Switzerland > G > Well... let me change that vision a bit.  Yesterday, I was a bit boldIF > and installed the patch on 3 systems.  One standalone, and the other > two in a cluster.  > L Hmm. I was running my standalone Hobbyist system for a while without the ECON and XFC enabled without problems. Perhaps I was lucky, but as I read it at the5 time, the problem(s) only affected clustered systems.   H It used my 512 MB as much as possible and cut one project's compile time2  down from 40 minutes to somthing like 25 minutes.  N Before I heard of the ECO and then the ECO stop, I had definite data integrity5 problems on a 2 node cluster, so reverted to 7.2-1H1.E  F I received 7.3-1 today - not on CD, but via tape, so it may not be theF "official release"  I'll try that out out on a non-production cluster. __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandd   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Aug 2002 23:44:19 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up...n* Message-ID: <ajeq0j$oh0$5@web1.cup.hp.com>  U In article <fTXCH$N21Tex@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes: k :In article <8debc3ff.0208130531.4945f18d@posting.google.com>, ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell) writes:sC :> The long awaited XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up and can be found atn :> (watch for wrapping): :> o` :> http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/dec-axpvms-vms73_xfc-v0200--4.README :> aG :> Who's going to be first to put it into production and report back toe :> the rest of us? :s8 :Visions of everyone waiting for everyone else here :-)      $ sho mem/cach@               System Memory Resources on 14-AUG-2002 19:42:29.16  B Extended File Cache  (Time of last reset: 23-JUL-2002 16:18:12.05)L   Allocated (GBytes)            1.00    Maximum size (GBytes)           1.00L   Free (GBytes)                 0.23    Minimum size (GBytes)           0.00M   In use (GBytes)               0.76    Percentage Read I/Os              91%cM   Read hit rate                   80%   Write hit rate                     0%iL   Read I/O count            18136029    Write I/O count              1590790L   Read hit count            14655314    Write hit count                    0L   Reads bypassing cache        33383    Writes bypassing cache        447697L   Files cached open              746    Files cached closed             4876L   Vols in Full XFC mode            0    Vols in VIOC Compatible mode     295L   Vols in No Caching mode          5    Vols in Perm. No Caching mode      0    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:39:37 -0400-  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>+ Subject: Re: XFC patch for VMS 7.3 is up...44 Message-ID: <1020814213633.415A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  - On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Roland Barmettler wrote:)   > Hi all > = > As the XFC ECO 2.0 is available, I dared to enable XFC. ;-)i+ > This may be a stupid question but anyway:e > H > Why do I get all volumes reported as still in "VIOC Compatible mode" ? > $ > Vols in Full XFC mode            0$ > Vols in VIOC Compatible mode     4 > 
 > although >  > $ MC SYSGEN SHO VCC_FLAGSeD > Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     > Unit  DynamicaD > --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   > ----  -------hC > VCC_FLAGS                       2          2         0         -1l
 > Bitmask    h >  > Thanks for any explanations. >  > Greetings, Rolande  ; Please ignore my other post.  My ISP's news server has been < very flakely this month, and I didn't see your original post. until after I replied to the snipped followup.  @ I see the same thing on my system.  Could this be due to running@ on a cluster with a VAX (V7.3) or other Alpha nodes that haven't, been patched yet and still have VCC_FLAGS=1?     -- T John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:34:36 +0200u- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>s3 Subject: Re: [OT] Delay in msg posting? (annexe #1)Y' Message-ID: <3D5B3D6C.FCB5C738@Free.fr>   	 Annexe #1   " Full header of a "delayed" message" ==================================  " Path: news.tiscali.fr!not-for-mail- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>S Newsgroups:  comp.os.vms/ Subject: Programming VAX in Fortran source codem% Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:45:11 +0200r0 Organization: MCT (MORANDI Consultants Toulouse)	 Lines:  9r' Message-ID: <3D577593.8F387480@Free.fr>r4 NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-212-232-41-115.ppp.tiscali.fr Mime-Version: 1.0=* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit)N X-Trace: news1adm.admin.in.none.net 1029141908 701 212.232.41.115 (12 Aug 2002
 08:45:08 GMT)=% X-Complaints-To: abuse@libertysurf.fr=8 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:45:08 +0000 (UTC)+ X-Mailer:  Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC)i X-Accept-Language: en>' Xref: news.tiscali.fr comp.os.vms:23865x  6 Full header of a "normal" (i.e. instantaneous) message6 ======================================================[ Path:  news.free.fr!spooler2-1.proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!news2-2.free.fr!not-for-mailt' Message-ID: <3D5B3951.64F483AC@Free.fr>L& Date:  Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:17:05 +0200- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>f0 Organization: MCT (MORANDI Consultants Toulouse)* X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Accept-Language:  en MIME-Version: 1.0  Newsgroups: comp.os.vms # Subject: [OT] Delay in msg posting?H* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitl Lines: 4, NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2002 07:17:03 MEST! NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.232.34.171n6 X-Trace: 1029388623 news2-2.free.fr 574 212.232.34.171" X-Complaints-To:  abuse@proxad.net% Xref: news.free.fr comp.os.vms:132570   = Looks like there is no more spooler in the first case, right?c   D.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.447 ************************Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:39:57 -0400n From: norm.raphael@metso.com) Subject: V7.3-1 and TIMA for FC Minimerges? Message-ID: <OF73FF530F.02C431FB-ON85256C15.00715B51@metso.com>   + Is the TIMA for FC M                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ß    ğ    ş    Ɵ    ǟ    ȟ    ɟ    ʟ    ˟    ̟    ͟    Ο    ϟ    П    џ    ҟ    ӟ    ԟ    ՟    ֟    ן    ؟    ٟ    ڟ    ۟    ܟ    ݟ    ޟ    ߟ        ៣    ⟣    㟣    䟣    埣    柣    矣    蟣    韣    ꟣    럣    쟣    ퟣ            🣪    񟣪    򟣪    󟣪                                                    