1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 31 Aug 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 479       Contents:& Re: 1 minute increment version of CRON& Re: 1 minute increment version of CRON& Re: 1 minute increment version of CRON	 Re: am/pm ! Another View On the OSI Model :-) 8 Anyone else noticed the Microsoft ad that calls VMS Unix0 Re: Bad quality of OVMS software engineering was0 Re: Bad quality of OVMS software engineering was Re: banner displayed0 Re: Booting the hobbyist OpenVMS from InfoServer Re: File open (URGENT!) ' Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap ' Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap E Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly) E Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly) E Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly) E Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly) * Hardware Question . Alphastation 255 266/4 Help installing Pine  Re: How to configure DECNet-plus$ RE: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works$ Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works$ Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works$ RE: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works$ Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works. Re: HP earnings - how did the VMS business do?" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly HP-ETS 2002 Conference Overview  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX 9 Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements ! Re: Products incl in NAS package.  Re: re white boxen9 Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...) 9 RE: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...) 9 Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...) = Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? " Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week Re: Simple cluster Re: Strange F$TRNLNM behaviour? - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance - Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance  The steps to setup a printer  Re: The steps to setup a printer% Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes % Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes % Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes % Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes  Re: VMS performance software Re: VMS performance software  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 12:39:40 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) / Subject: Re: 1 minute increment version of CRON 3 Message-ID: <kyxFAplGt5jX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   L In article <ako7ma$q3j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > O > At the start of August Rob Young posted that he would be sending a version of J > CRON which was modified to run with a 1 minute interval to Hunter to put > up on his freeware site. > > > I've just looked at Hunter's freeware site and can't see it. >  > Has it been put up anywhere ?  >    	Apologize profusely.   B 	Here it is.  Go through the DCL line by line it may have wrapped.> 	I cleaned up two minor wraps cutting and pasting this.  Study0 	it and test it on a non-production box/cluster.  = 	I last used this February 1998 so may have removed something + 	in cleaning it up and putting it out here.   6 	One interesting feature is it will kick start itself.= 	@cron and if it isn't running as a detached process, it will  	start itself.  A 	One additional setup note, you must create a subdirectory called % 	LOGS under where CRON.COM resides.     A 	I make no claim as to the usefulness of the following procedure. ? 	It is not intended for use other than as a study.  If you have 0 	problems or questions about it, drop me a line.  < 	If you make improvements to it, drop me an email and I will@ 	stick them in my version.  If it is already sweet, maybe I send# 	it on.  If not, you can google it.   C 	One final note, I have one major concern.  If there were 300 lines A 	in your crontab.dat file, would it be able to process it in less ? 	than a minute?  So it could probably use a re-write in C.  But ? 	why bother?  When VMS becomes Linux compliant, perhaps someone = 	can grab it?  Or better yet, when COE gets wrapped back into ( 	base VMS, Cron is already there, right?   				Rob   B Men with walkie-talkies                 I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights wavin'             You know it makes me wonder G Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstream > The clock reads daylight savings        Rollin' in the thunder  .                                 -- Neil Young      $ veri = f$verify(0) $ goto bypass_comments $! CRON.COM  $!E $!      A modified version of a Cron taken from an old VAX Pro.  Note D $!      that the original worked on an hourly basis.  This one worksK $!      on 5 (1 on Alpha) minute increments.  It will round to the nearest  A $!      5 (or 1) minutes to determine whether to run it or not.   I $!      Commands will be SPAWNED unless SUBMIT is present in the command.  $!C $!      The author of this procedure is Upcasing the input command.  $!1 $!                      Rob Young    May 14, 1993  $!6 $!      Added make_invincible        February 11, 19947 $!      Added initialization         September 15, 1995 E $!                      Initialization will allow us to support crons J $!                      running from several nodes as it uses the nodenameJ $!                      as part of the crontab filename (if found uses it,: $!                      otherwise defaults to crontab.dat) $!5 $!      Changed day_of_week to reflect Unix behavior:  $!" $!      Sunday = 0 .. Saturday = 6 $!H $!      Modified wait_minute so that Cron now can do 1 minute increments6 $!      on Alpha's.                  February 17, 1998 $!; $! A VMS version of the UNIX cron facility.  Reads the file L $! crontab.dat every 5 (1 Minute on Alpha) minutes and performs the commands$ $! according to the following rules: $!: $! each line contains 6 fields separated by tabs or spacesK $! The fields are minutes (0-60), hours (0-23), days (1-31), months (1-12), F $! day of week (1-7) and command line. (unix has a minutes field too.)D $!                              so does this one now --^^^^^^^^^^^^^ $!G $! The number parameters can be one of these: (can mix and match types) ( $!    single number    - matches exactly; $!    number-number    - matches inclusive range, note that K $!                       1-3 matches 1,2, or 3 but 22-2 (for hours) matches 8 $!                       22,23,0,1,2.  Time goes around., $!    number,number... - matches any in list$ $!    *                - matches any $!> $! All four time fields must match for command to be executed. $!& $! lines starting with # are comments. $!L $! The command line goes to the end of line or to a %.  If there is a % thenL $! it is taken as a EOL for the command, further elements separated by % areH $! taken as input data lines to the command.  The command is executed asK $! a subprocess from the account running cron.com, except if it is a submit K $! command in which case it is executed immediately.  Since this is usually I $! the system account you should consider this facility mostly for system J $! functions.  You can do something for another user by making the commandC $! a submit/user=somebody of a command file or a run/uic=something.  $!C $! logging of activity is done with writes to sys$output.  This can B $! be directed to a file during debugging or send to nl: when cron  $! is run as a detached process. $! $! $!  $! Make this routine undeletable $! $ bypass_comments: $! call make_invincible  $       call initialization # $       if .not. cron_been_started   $ then   $       call start_cron  $       exit $ endif  $! $! define some constants8 $ delim = " "  ! field delimiter, change here if desired
 $ dash  = "-" 
 $ comma = ","  $ percent = "%"  $ asterix = "*"  $!/ $! begin, first get the current time components  $ again:
 $ ! show time  $ time        = f$time()3 $ current_0   = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"minute")) 1 $ current_1   = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"hour")) 0 $ current_2   = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"day"))2 $ current_3   = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"month")). $ day_of_week_name = f$cvtime(time,,"weekday"): $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Sunday"    then current_4 = 0: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Monday"    then current_4 = 1: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Tuesday"   then current_4 = 2: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Wednesday" then current_4 = 3: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Thursday"  then current_4 = 4: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Friday"    then current_4 = 5: $ if day_of_week_name .eqs. "Saturday"  then current_4 = 6 $! $! write sys$output - R $! "Starting cron run at: hour - ''current_0'  day - ''current_1'  month - ''curre $!nt_2'  dow - ''current_3'" $! $! get a line from the file 1 $ open/read/error=wait crontab 'the_crontab_file'  $! process each line in turn= $ line_number = 0   ! used if neccessary for unique file name  $ next_line: $ line_number = line_number + 1 $ $ read/end_of_file=wait crontab line# $! write sys$output "Reading line:" F $ if f$extract(0,1,line) .eqs. "#" then goto next_line  ! comment lineM $ line = f$edit(line,"compress,trim,upcase")            !condition input data  $!A $! parse out line parts, all parts must match to get command done A $! loop through first five elements of line calling check_element E $! with parameters current and element.  Check $status on return.  If 0 $! any element doesn't match then get next line. $ element_number = 0 $ next_element: 0 $ element = f$element(element_number,delim,line)$ $ current = current_'element_number' $ gosub check_element 3 $ if $status .ne. 1 then goto next_line   !no match % $ element_number = element_number + 1 1 $ if element_number .le. 4 then goto next_element  $!9 $! here if elements 0-4 all match, time to do the command  $! find command in line.F $ command = f$extract(f$locate(f$element(5,delim,line),line),200,line)= $ write sys$output "At ''f$time()' executing line: ", command J $ if f$locate(percent,command) .ne. f$length(command) then goto data_linesB $ if f$extract(0,3,command) .eqs. "SUB" then goto immediate_submit $ spawn = "spawn"  $ spawn/nowait 'command' $ goto next_line $!A $immediate_submit:  ! here if command is submit so do immediately  $ submit = "submit" 
 $ set noon
 $'command' $ set on $ goto next_line $!7 $data_lines: ! here if command has data lines following  $ data_line_number = 0, $ open/write temp cron_line'line_number'.com $next_data_line:8 $ write temp f$element(data_line_number,percent,command)) $ data_line_number = data_line_number + 1 E $ if f$element(data_line_number,percent,command) .nes. percent then -      goto next_data_line  $ close temp* $ spawn/nowait @cron_line'line_number'.com $ goto next_line $!; $! wait for next go around, always synch to next even hour, : $! this code to be sure that the procedure restarts within! $! a few seconds after even hour. - $ !   ^^^^^--- That was then this is now. . .  $wait: $ close crontab O $ if f$search("cron_line*.com") .nes. "" then spawn/nowait purge cron_line*.com  $ time = f$time()  $!E $! Will wait until next minute boundary, 5 on VAX, 0 on Alpha waiting - $! current_seconds to get to the next minute.  $!6 $ current_minute = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"minute")) $ if current_minute .eq. 0 $ then $       wait_minute = 4  $ else $! do some modulo G $       wait_minute = 4 - (current_minute - ((current_minute / 5) * 5))  $ endif  $!F $! Make sure you make it to the next minute boundary on speed machines $!6 $ current_second = f$integer(f$cvtime(time,,"second")) $! $! write sys$output "Waiting  5 $!00:''f$string(wait_minute)':''f$string(60-current_s 
 $!econd)'" $!6 $ if is_alpha then wait_minute = 0  ! Watch this . . .? $ wait 00:'f$string(wait_minute)':'f$string(60-current_second)' P $ wait 00:00:01  ! Wait 1 more second to make sure we are at the next min bound. $ goto again $!C $! subroutine to check for matches, current is the part of the real F $! current date and time and element is the chunk of the crontab file.D $! Need to check element and cut up into smaller pieces if neccesaryD $! and then compare to current.  Note that current is an integer and) $! element (and it's pieces) is a string.  $check_element: / $! parse out parts of element, if there are any $ $! check simplest case first, i.e. *J $ if f$locate(asterix,element) .eq. f$length(element) then goto no_asterix, $ return 1  ! asterix found, immediate match $!
 $ no_asterix:  $ sub_element_number = -1  $!6 $ find_sub_element: ! looking for comma separated list- $ sub_element_number = sub_element_number + 1 ; $ sub_element = f$element(sub_element_number,comma,element) : $ if sub_element .eqs. comma then goto out_of_sub_elements $!3 $ left_side_of_dash = f$element(0,dash,sub_element) @ $ if left_side_of_dash .nes. sub_element then goto range_elementF $ if current .eq. f$integer(sub_element) then return 1  !found a match $ goto find_sub_element  $!0 $ range_element:  ! sub_element has a dash in it4 $ right_side_of_dash = f$element(1,dash,sub_element)D $! if left is greater than right then things are not_straightforwardF $ if f$integer(left_side_of_dash) .gt. f$integer(right_side_of_dash) -!     then goto not_straightforward 6 $ if current .ge. f$integer(left_side_of_dash) .and. -L      current .le. f$integer(right_side_of_dash) then return 1 ! in the range $ goto find_sub_element  $!G $not_straightforward: !because time is circular at least in measurement A $! example:  a range of days such as 27-3.  this is taken to mean @ $! any day from 27-31 or 1-3.  Need to see if current falls intoB $! 27-max_day_of_month or min_day_of_month-3.  Note that each time8 $! component has a different max and min.  Set them now.. $ component_min = 1  !for days, months and dow< $ if element_number .eq. 0 then component_min = 59  !minutes9 $ if element_number .eq. 1 then component_min = 0  !hours 9 $ if element_number .eq. 1 then component_max = 23 !hours A $ if element_number .eq. 2 then component_max = 31 !days of month B $ if element_number .eq. 3 then component_max = 12 !months of year? $ if element_number .eq. 4 then component_max = 6  !day of week 7 $ if (current .ge. f$integer(left_side_of_dash) .and. - (       current .le. component_max) .or. -)      (current .ge. component_min  .and. - F       current .le. f$integer(right_side_of_dash)) then return 1 !whew! $goto find_sub_element $! $out_of_sub_elements: 7 $return 3 ! ran through all sub_elements with any match $ $! end of subroutine check_element ! $! $ exit $!) $! New subroutine to make CRON invincible  $! $ make_invincible: $ subroutine $ ! 6 $ ! This routine not supported in public version . . . $ !  $ exit6 $       path = f$trnlnm("the_base","the_table") - ".]"< $ if f$search("''path'.bin]undeletable.exe") .eqs. "" then -	      exit  $ !  $ pid=f$getjpi("","pid")C $ open/write/error=closeup/end=closeup pidlog 'path'.log]_'pid'.log E $       write pidlog "$ undeletable :== $''path'.bin]undeletable.exe" % $       write pidlog "$ undeletable "  $       write pidlog "''pid'"  $ close pidlog" $       type 'path'.log]_'pid'.log $       @'path'.log]_'pid'.log5 $       delete/nolog/noconfirm 'path'.log]_'pid'.log;  $ endsubroutine      $ initialization:n $ subroutine8 $       this_node == f$edit(f$getsyi("nodename"),"trim")  $       cron_been_started :== no0 $       if f$trnlnm("''this_node'_cron_started") $       then) $               cron_been_started :== yesf
 $       endifeE $       this_dir == "''f$element(0,"]",f$environment("PROCEDURE"))']"a $       set default 'this_dir'8 $       if f$search("''this_node'_crontab.dat") .nes. "" $ then4 $       the_crontab_file :== 'this_node'_crontab.dat $ else( $       the_crontab_file :== crontab.dat $ endife4 $       is_alpha == 'f$getsyi("hw_model")' .gt. 1024 $ endsubroutinee    
 $ start_cron:W $ subroutine $       delete = "delete"r $       mode = f$mode()g $       if mode .eqs. "OTHER"e $       thenO $         write sys$output "Cron is active, cron previously started ...Halting"5I $         write sys$output "Logical ''this_node'_cron_started value is: "D3 $         t = f$trnlnm("''this_node'_cron_started")o' $         write sys$output ">> ''t' <<"W $         stop
 $       endifo* $       logdir = this_dir - "]" + ".logs]" $       close/nolog wlog: $       open/write wlog 'logdir'cron_'this_node'_start.tmp* $       write wlog "$ run /uic = [1,4] - "% $       write wlog "/priority = 6 - "C4 $       write wlog "/input = ''this_dir'cron.com - "@ $       write wlog "/output = ''logdir'''this_node'_cron.log - "? $       write wlog "/error = ''logdir'''this_node'_cron.err - "o= $       write wlog "/process_name = ""''this_node' Cron"" - "P) $       write wlog "sys$system:loginout "e $       close/nolog wlog5 $       define/system 'this_node'_cron_started "TRUE"e+ $       @'logdir'cron_'this_node'_start.tmpm7 $       purge/keep=2 'logdir'cron_'this_node'_start.tmpq5 $       wait 00:03  ! Just in case we get many spawnso $ endsubroutine      Sample crontab.dat:r  
 # crontab.date> # Use 5 minute increments on VAX, 1 minute increments on Alpha( # minute, hour, day, month, dow, commandH 12 1 22 1 * submit/queue=sys$batch/noprint/log user10:[user.ryoung]t.comE 0 5 * * 5,6 purge/nolog/keep=5 the_base:[log] ! Friday Saturday purgen #, # end crontab.dati  1 Sample run (place in your favorite startup file):n  A $ ! Note that if cronpath is a logical it must in a system table. B $ ! Often I find it easiest to hard-code a path to a "run/detach".) $      run /uic=[1,4]/authorize         -l7            /detach                                    - :            /input          =       'cronpath'cron.com    -:            /output         =       'cronlog'cron.log     -:            /error          =       'cronlog'cron.err     -:            /process_name   =       "Nodename Cron"       -            sys$system:loginout   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 23:01:46 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)S/ Subject: Re: 1 minute increment version of CRONa3 Message-ID: <u8c35hrWkqCO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <kyxFAplGt5jX@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:sN > In article <ako7ma$q3j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >>  P >> At the start of August Rob Young posted that he would be sending a version ofK >> CRON which was modified to run with a 1 minute interval to Hunter to put  >> up on his freeware site.  >> e? >> I've just looked at Hunter's freeware site and can't see it.- >> -  >> Has it been put up anywhere ? >> 0 >  > 	Apologize profusely._ >    	Sure do... don't use this one.c   				Robn   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 23:03:08 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)u/ Subject: Re: 1 minute increment version of CRON 3 Message-ID: <8Ityx1VByHBK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   L In article <ako7ma$q3j$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > O > At the start of August Rob Young posted that he would be sending a version oftJ > CRON which was modified to run with a 1 minute interval to Hunter to put > up on his freeware site. > > > I've just looked at Hunter's freeware site and can't see it. >  > Has it been put up anywhere?  ; 	Yes, but don't use it.  Minute wrapping was broken and thet 	startup of it stinks.   				Robi   >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:34:39 +1200  From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>g Subject: Re: am/pm2 Message-ID: <agTb9.1673$Y3.257847@news.xtra.co.nz>  4 Just a quick question: Why is high noon called 12pm?4 After all, that stands for "12 hours past meridium".. One would expect it to mean midnight in fact:)  0 Or, how come 11:59:59am + 1 second = 12:00:00pm?  < After all, that thing just said said it's 11:59:59 hours etc1 before the meridium. One second later it says the,* meridium is 12 hours past ... Go figure:-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:00:18 GMTs1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)c* Subject: Another View On the OSI Model :-)= Message-ID: <CyUb9.375534$q53.12470739@twister.austin.rr.com>t Keywords: opinion,osi,modelo   http://www.randywanker.com/OSI/S   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:28:01 +0100m4 From: "Chris Casey" <chris.caseyNOSPAM@ntlworld.com>A Subject: Anyone else noticed the Microsoft ad that calls VMS Unixa/ Message-ID: <xrSb9.3204$Q%.105896@newsfep2-gui>i  A It is in IT week dated 26/8 (and in some others as well I think).i% It is two half pages spread over two.eG The head line is '1o [degree] of separation between your Windows servert$ aficionados and your Unix devotees'.L It goes on to say how biztalk solves all ills and then shows a case study ofJ Dollar rent a car. However the server shown in the picture has VMS printed	 below it.   - Anyone brought this to Microsoft's attention?X   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:48:37 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i9 Subject: Re: Bad quality of OVMS software engineering was J Message-ID: <p_Pb9.138556$8aG1.84477@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Jerry Leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message7 news:fWJb9.375364$q53.12383993@twister.austin.rr.com...m< > Phillip Helbig (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com) wrote:I > : > For right now, however, many companies *are* relying on blind faith  that/ > : < commericial off the shelf (COTS) software  > : F > : Pronounced the same as "kotz!", the German imperative for "vomit!" > I > Which is the reaction of most people when they learn of the U.S. Navy's " > "Smart Ship" COTS program; e.g.: >oG >     http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/08/08/carrier.windows.idg/  >     CNN.com - Technology -H >     Futuristic Windows version to control aircraft carrier - August 8, 2000 >oF >     "...The CVN-77 win is a key triumph for Microsoft in the defenseL >     industry, because it sets the stage for the company's participation inL >     the Navy's long-term, three-phase future carrier design program. "ThisH >     is not just the one ship. It will decide the architectures for theJ >     next three ships," Roach said. Microsoft's agreement also includes aK >     back-fit program for seven other carriers, bringing the total to 10."e >( >)< >    "Sleep well, your nation is being guarded by Microsoft"    G I think that it's supposed to work this way....the carrier sails within F visual distance of the coast and then threatens the rogue country with4 instant annihilation using the Blue Screen of Death.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:24:47 -06001 From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>c9 Subject: Re: Bad quality of OVMS software engineering wasn& Message-ID: <wkQb9.6937$o23.1846@fe02>   John Smith wrote: @ > "Jerry Leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message9 > news:fWJb9.375364$q53.12383993@twister.austin.rr.com...e > < >>Phillip Helbig (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com) wrote:I >>: > For right now, however, many companies *are* relying on blind faithr >  > that > / >>: < commericial off the shelf (COTS) software  >>:nF >>: Pronounced the same as "kotz!", the German imperative for "vomit!" >>I >>Which is the reaction of most people when they learn of the U.S. Navy'sm" >>"Smart Ship" COTS program; e.g.: >>G >>    http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/08/08/carrier.windows.idg/! >>    CNN.com - Technology -H >>    Futuristic Windows version to control aircraft carrier - August 8, >  > 2000 > F >>    "...The CVN-77 win is a key triumph for Microsoft in the defenseL >>    industry, because it sets the stage for the company's participation inL >>    the Navy's long-term, three-phase future carrier design program. "ThisH >>    is not just the one ship. It will decide the architectures for theJ >>    next three ships," Roach said. Microsoft's agreement also includes aK >>    back-fit program for seven other carriers, bringing the total to 10."  >> >>< >>   "Sleep well, your nation is being guarded by Microsoft" >  >  > I > I think that it's supposed to work this way....the carrier sails withinnH > visual distance of the coast and then threatens the rogue country with6 > instant annihilation using the Blue Screen of Death.  @ The ships will pull into the harbor, and shout through bullhornsC "surrender, or we will offload all this MicroSoft software on you!",   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:08:23 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d Subject: Re: banner displayed ' Message-ID: <3D6FC7E2.48A79795@fsi.net>m   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Phillip Helbig wrote:oF > > LDS") where Scotty addresses a PC "Computer! Computer!".  Some guyK > > points him to the mouse with a "how stupid can this guy be" look on his H > > face, upon which Scotty picks up the mouse, looks as cool as he can,> > > holds it like a microphone and says "Computer! Computer!". > L > yeah, but within seconds, he masters the keyboard "how quaint !", and withI > just a slow Mac Plus, he manages to draw 3d graphics of the formula forn. > transparent aluminium in less than a minute. > O > If you gave a windows weenie access to an old MAC Plus, do you think he could ' > do the same in less than 30 seconds ?i  @ Of course not! It would have blue-screened long before then! ;-)   -- n David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:38:22 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m9 Subject: Re: Booting the hobbyist OpenVMS from InfoServers+ Message-ID: <3D6FBB98.1CFFE55@videotron.ca>h   Ian King wrote:.L > the installation guide, and get to the 'Bootfile' prompt on the 3100; thenN > the machine starts to give me a RETRY error, over and over.  Using a networkL > sniffer, I can see the MOP packets going out with the proper bootfile nameL > (ISL_SVAX_073); I can also see the InfoServer (150) advertising itself viaH > LAT.  The InfoServer's MOP counters show activity, including 'File not > found' errors. r    C Looking at the VMS VAX Hobbysist CD, in the [SYS0.SYSEXE] directory" (standalone backup), I see::  A ISL_LVAX_072.SYS and ISL_SVAX_072.SYS, as well as STANDALONE.EXE,hA STANDACONF.EXE, SYSBOOT.EXE SYSINIT.EXE VAXVMSSYS.PAR and VMB.EXEt  L So the "073" might be what is the problem, unless there is a new hobbyist CD out with VMS 7.3   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:17:46 -0700t. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>  Subject: Re: File open (URGENT!)/ Message-ID: <3D6FC4DA.822F7CC7@lmco.nospam.com>u  F And with VMS, it leaves it up to the person to figure out what to do. E It is not transparent.  It can be quite a surprise for the first timeu one runs into it.m   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:52:17 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>o0 Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap( Message-ID: <3D6FBEE0.3E9D0A48@ohio.edu>   JF Mezei wrote:o >  [snip]K > I seem to recall that much of the so called "cruft" is really a strategiceO > decision not to embark on fancy tricks that enhance speed because they do notaP > garantee data integrity. VMS is VMS because it has the quality, data integrityO > and is trustable, not because it is fast. The fact that it ran on the world'soP > fastest chip did compensate to some extent its performance weaknesses, so whenL > it moves to IA64, its performance may look bad versus HP's other products. [snip]  L I have long thought that one of the reasons for the success of the MacintoshM and the languishing of Windows 1 and 2 was that there was no shipping producttN using the Motorola 68000 with a character cell interface, so no one knew at a L gut level how much compute power was being soaked up by Apple's Mac GUI, but9 everyone knew right away how much Windows was consuming.     								RDPn   -- iB ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:58:06 +0000o2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>0 Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap3 Message-ID: <20020830195806.J6828@eisenschmidt.org>e  L Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Richard D. Piccard (piccard@ohio.edu) Wrote: >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:e > >  > [snip]M > > I seem to recall that much of the so called "cruft" is really a strategiceN > > decision not to embark on fancy tricks that enhance speed because they do M > > not garantee data integrity. VMS is VMS because it has the quality, data mM > > integrity and is trustable, not because it is fast. The fact that it ran bN > > on the world's fastest chip did compensate to some extent its performance N > > weaknesses, so when it moves to IA64, its performance may look bad versus  > > HP's other products. > [snip]  F Hmm...while I can't disagree, I sense some resentment even in your ownD statement. If you don't care that VMS isn't the fastest OS, then whyA the need for the comment about it running on "the world's fastest) chip"? e  E I think it's been said more than once before that a large part of thegB performance difference is in file system caching, which looks likeF it's being addressed in 7.3 and forward. For something like a database@ server, loss of disk caching is a small price to pay for RMS andC Journaling, which can run circles around a well tuned Oracle systemr# because it's so tightly integrated.a  N > I have long thought that one of the reasons for the success of the MacintoshO > and the languishing of Windows 1 and 2 was that there was no shipping product_P > using the Motorola 68000 with a character cell interface, so no one knew at a N > gut level how much compute power was being soaked up by Apple's Mac GUI, but; > everyone knew right away how much Windows was consuming. s  E Not entirely true. I think MacOS had a CLI until around System 6, buttF even so the kind of test you're talking about can be done from the ROME debugger. Hit the programmer button on *any* Mac and you get a dialogt! box. You can take it from there. e  D There was also AUX, which was the Unix clone for Mac hardware. TheseF days there are several flavors of BSD and Linux that will run on those
 boat anchors.x > 
 > 								RDPr >  > -- mD > ==================================================================D > Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerD > piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesD > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   -- N/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>e6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  GPG Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.asc D  GPG Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2O This mail is an attachment? Read http://www.jensbenecke.de/misc/outlook.en.htmlp   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:22:40 -0600 (MDT)t" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>N Subject: Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly)F Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0208301219340.2911-100000@athena.csdco.com>  $ On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, JF Mezei wrote:   > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:i/ > > who has ... is an NRA life member, and will$ > J > Admitting you are a devout follower of Charlton Heston's religion is notP > something you should be doing here. You aren't going to be making friends, andE > those who do not agree with that religion will think lesser of you.n >    JF,D  > Bill ranted, Terry ranted back. Not too far off for this list.  C You know the NRA is not a religion so that was a bit of a rant too.=  
 John Nebel NRA Endowment Member :)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:09:37 GMTy1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>tN Subject: Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly)& Message-ID: <3D6FBA1C.B7A16DE@fsi.net>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > . > In article <3D6EEF1D.4020209@tsoft-inc.com>,/ >    David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:h > >dM > > Things are going downhill rapidly.  Now we have an NRA argument in c.o.v." > > R > > I do have to ask this question of those that think it's guns that kill and notN > > people.  When a drunk driver kills someone, do we blame the driver, or ban > > automobiles? > >dA >     Neither, we blame the person that served him the drinks :-)r  E The gal I lived with ten year or so years ago went to Osco for Vodka,nH then went home and got tanked up. Do we blame the counter person? ...the/ retailer? ...the distributor? ...the distiller?d   -- . David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:06:59 GMTd* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>N Subject: Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly)@ Message-ID: <T7Rb9.44478$On.2085254@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message  news:3D6FBA1C.B7A16DE@fsi.net...G > The gal I lived with ten year or so years ago went to Osco for Vodka,uJ > then went home and got tanked up. Do we blame the counter person? ...the1 > retailer? ...the distributor? ...the distiller?p >rH Blame the farmer in Idaho that grew the potatoes.  Barley, hops, rye and6 potatoes, all killer drugs we need to ban immediately.   Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:04:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> N Subject: Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly)+ Message-ID: <3D6FEBF1.8CE3603@videotron.ca>g   Jack Peacock wrote:oJ > Blame the farmer in Idaho that grew the potatoes.  Barley, hops, rye and8 > potatoes, all killer drugs we need to ban immediately. >   Jack Peacock  K I say, sue the neighbour who planted a tree which produced the oxygen whichvR you used to travel to the liquor shop to buy the vodka which got you into trouble.  F Heck, while you are at it, why not sue the church, since they claim toH represent god, and god created the heavesn, the earth, humans and vodka.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:11:45 -0400>, From: "Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc>3 Subject: Hardware Question . Alphastation 255 266/4 = Message-ID: <gnWb9.590$FJ1.27099@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>   J    I have a question. This alpha seems to have an scsi-2 drive (2 or 4gb),F and simms memory 72 pinns. I just want to be sure so I can upgrade theL disks. What scsi drives can this alpha run and what type of cables it's needJ it (how many pins). and how much the max memory that i can put with simms,I been that it has 8 slots. If I take the 64 out, and put all new syms, howeL much can I put (max)? . And what is the biggest hard drive that I can put. I  think I could put up two inside.   Thanks  	 Franciscoa   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:55:44 -0400e, From: "Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc> Subject: Help installing PinerB Message-ID: <v7Qb9.108090$%v4.5604301@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>   Hi, H      I'm trying to install pine but with no luck. I download it from theH freeware site at montagar.com and then I transfer the file into my alphaK 255. I'm currently running OpenVms 7.2. After uncompressing it, I realize I L need it C (CC) so I installed it on the alpha. Well, the thing is that afterG reading the aaareadme.txt I have not been able to figure it out. I haveqH create it a production folder but everytime that I run vmsbuild from theG root of the folder or from [.pine] or [.pico], it does not generate any K *pine*.exe files, furthermore, in the PINE folder, I don't even see any exeiL file . I see that compiles fine but I can't find them. I look in all my DKA0C . Can someone please tell me an easy way to install PINE. Thank you-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:48:55 -0500O& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>) Subject: Re: How to configure DECNet-plusD8 Message-ID: <1fmvmug7820fip2s2vdiinroaqvev23t6d@4ax.com>  < On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:55:22 GMT, dittman@dittman.net wrote:     >-= >DECnet-Plus requires @net$config, and defining nodes is donem; >with decnet_register.  If you understand the ISO model thec< >configuration of DECnet-Plus makes sense, too.  I find them9 >both the same level for simple configurations.  For moren: >complex configurations, esp. trying to bridge DECnet over; >a WAN, DECnet-Plus is easier as you can use DECnet-over-IP[= >instead of trying to get your routers to encapsulate DECnet.   ? The thing I miss the most is the simplicity of SHOW KNOWN LINKSi0 (usually followed by a DISCONNECT LINK command).  E In DECnet-Plus it takes a couple of commands to display the links.  A ( bit more effort to automate in a script.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:04:40 -0400 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>c- Subject: RE: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works : Message-ID: <OPEPIPEJGHNICIJKJFEACENOFBAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]' > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:45 PM3 > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com / > Subject: Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Worksm >  >  > David Froble wrote:hT > > Actually, thinking on it further, I'm not sure that windoz is even the monopoly.T > >   From where I see things, it's more likely that it's MS office that is the realV > > monopoly.  And revenue producer.  Any cracks there, and MS should be rather upset. > J > Consider that every PC sold comes with a copy of Windows which generatesM > revenu to Microsoft, even of the buyer of the PC alreayd had Windows on hisu > previous slower PC.n  D 	Hyperbole - "every" is a strong word. We commonly buy PC's sans OS. > P > Consider that MS Office is not bundled into many PC packages (MS Works is moreN > commonly bundled). So if someone splurged and bought MS Office, he is likelyA > to "transfer" it to his new PC instead of buying a new version.  > P > I think that this is the whole point of Microsoft's new licencing strategy. ItJ > realised that as soon as people stop upgrading, Microsoft will be out of > business for applications.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:56:27 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>- Subject: Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft WorksdC Message-ID: <flOb9.309181$2p2.12809170@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>n  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D6FAF2C.B5AB1F4E@videotron.ca... > David Froble wrote:rJ > > Actually, thinking on it further, I'm not sure that windoz is even the	 monopoly.aK > >   From where I see things, it's more likely that it's MS office that iss the realH > > monopoly.  And revenue producer.  Any cracks there, and MS should be
 rather upset.i >rJ > Consider that every PC sold comes with a copy of Windows which generatesI > revenu to Microsoft, even of the buyer of the PC alreayd had Windows on  his  > previous slower PC.c  F Actually, that's no longer true.  Dell, for example, sells PCs withoutI Windows:  while MS has strong-armed it into not selling PCs with no OS at H all, it got around that by including some ancient non-MS DOS that it had
 access to.   >tK > Consider that MS Office is not bundled into many PC packages (MS Works iso moreG > commonly bundled). So if someone splurged and bought MS Office, he is- likelyA > to "transfer" it to his new PC instead of buying a new version.i  G Not quite true, since Office changes so frequently and incompatibly (atoL least with allowing old versions to operate on new documents) that upgradingC just to be able to converse with others who have upgraded becomes ai near-requirement.s  H That's why businesses are so locked into Windows:  not because of the OSH itself, but because only with Windows can they run the de facto standardI office software that (at least they perceive) everyone else uses and thatrK they therefore must remain compatible with.  While Dell and HP are (AFAICT)iL only bundling Corel software with their consumer (not business) PCs, if thisL gives it sufficient exposure to start people thinking that perhaps MS OfficeD isn't quite so indispensible after all, MS could be in real trouble.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:11:52 GMT-" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>- Subject: Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Works.8 Message-ID: <Xns927A7C155615falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>  - "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote ine< news:flOb9.309181$2p2.12809170@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com:  <snip>G > That's why businesses are so locked into Windows:  not because of theoD > OS itself, but because only with Windows can they run the de factoF > standard office software that (at least they perceive) everyone elseG > uses and that they therefore must remain compatible with.  While DellsF > and HP are (AFAICT) only bundling Corel software with their consumerC > (not business) PCs, if this gives it sufficient exposure to startuE > people thinking that perhaps MS Office isn't quite so indispensiblea* > after all, MS could be in real trouble.   C On the other hand, consider that MS is a major shareholder in CoreluE (and in Apple and in Borland, and probably some other "competitors").y   --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca -@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roadg1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:40:58 -0400n; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>t- Subject: RE: HP and Dell dump Microsoft WorksgK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA5D@rlghncst964.usps.gov>S  8 It's almost enough to make me want to call Dell and find3 out if I can get what's on my son's PC changed out o retroactively.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----+ From: "Alfred Falk" [mailto:falk@arc.ab.ca] % Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:11 PMd To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" - Subject: RE: HP and Dell dump Microsoft WorksY    - "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in"; news:flOb9.309181$2p2.12809170@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com:  <snip>G > That's why businesses are so locked into Windows:  not because of the1D > OS itself, but because only with Windows can they run the de factoF > standard office software that (at least they perceive) everyone elseG > uses and that they therefore must remain compatible with.  While Dell F > and HP are (AFAICT) only bundling Corel software with their consumerC > (not business) PCs, if this gives it sufficient exposure to start E > people thinking that perhaps MS Office isn't quite so indispensiblec) > after all, MS could be in real trouble.n  C On the other hand, consider that MS is a major shareholder in CorelzE (and in Apple and in Borland, and probably some other "competitors").c   --@ ----------------------------------------------------------------@   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roada1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadas http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4e  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:51:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> - Subject: Re: HP and Dell dump Microsoft Worksn, Message-ID: <3D6FBE91.BF33E768@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:H > Actually, that's no longer true.  Dell, for example, sells PCs withoutK > Windows:  while MS has strong-armed it into not selling PCs with no OS attJ > all, it got around that by including some ancient non-MS DOS that it had > access to.  K How will this be impacted by the new microsoft licensing schemes ? Won't it M become more painful/difficult to transfer the windows in your own PC to the a ; new empty PC since that would require re-registration etc ?.    E > Not quite true, since Office changes so frequently and incompatibly-  I This was true in the past, but does Office really change much anymore ? InH don't see huge rushes for people to upgrade anymore, especially since ifL enough decide to stick to a known version, tben their peers will also decideK to stay with that version for the same reason that they used to upgrade: toe stay compatible.  K I think that this is why Microsoft is trying to change their revenus stream ) from upgade revenus to maintance revenus.t  N > only bundling Corel software with their consumer (not business) PCs, if thisN > gives it sufficient exposure to start people thinking that perhaps MS OfficeF > isn't quite so indispensible after all, MS could be in real trouble.   Agreed.   J however, there may be much more to this than we know. Did both Dell and HPJ make the announcement at the same time ? If so, that woudl seem a bit odd.  J Perhaps the PC makers are getting tired of doing Microsoft's sales job andC losing money in the process and they are now either doing this as arL negotiating tactic with Microsoft, or just simply out of desperation so that: they can cut costs and perhaps make a bit of money on PCs.  K If everyone except Microsoft and Intel is hurting due to low margins in thegI wintel market, then pressure tactics against Microsoft and Intel would beoM logical in order to get them to participate in the pain. Seems that they haveiJ been immune so far (except perhaps Intel due to competition with AMD which9 does maintain more honest profit margins on low end cpus.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:05:48 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o7 Subject: Re: HP earnings - how did the VMS business do?a' Message-ID: <3D6FC744.9BD5B57E@fsi.net>w  * Let me just underscore David's point here:   David Froble wrote:y > [snip] > But who's job is it to keep  > customers happy? k   > The customers, l   > or the vendor? t  7 Got it now? (As another poster said in another thread.)    > I see just a bit too much of/ > "shoot the messenger" type of thinking here. t  F JF made a comment in another thread that I nominated for "quote of theF year". David's comment here I would nominate for understatement of the year.i  # > I'm not happy about any harm donesQ > to VMS, and Alpha.  Even the harm of unhappy customer comments.  But, isn't the=S > real problem that customers are unhappy, and not that they show that unhappiness?n  D I've never seen that stated more clearly and succinctly. If HP/Q topE management gets nothing else out of this newsgroup, that one point isy* worth more than all the gold in Fort Knox.  ; Sue? Hoff? Anyone? Please, forward this to them internally.j   --   David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/3   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:05:12 -0400u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went SmoothlyT, Message-ID: <3D6FB3D4.B19E141C@videotron.ca>   Tony Scandora wrote:L > Despite what some Sun cheerleaders might be saying or typing, or what thisM > quarter's earnings or this week's stock price are, the company is dependenttI > on IT spending, which is no longer in drunken sailor mode, and Linux isa! > changing the rules of the game.   J I think that "reduced IT spending" is a disease that would affect not onlyI Sun, but most other enterprise vendors as well. Remember that IBM's stocktK dipped from the $100 level to about $75 level due to the news of reduced ITe spending some time ago.   I Lets not forget that Sun wasn't created during the .COM era. Sun may haveaN taken advantage of .COM, but it was big before. Remember that Sun had a lot ofI fun during the palmer era, stealing all those defecting VMS customers andhH offering them cheaper solutions. And Sun started to steal customers at aM period when Ken O refused to make his slower VAXse price competitive with the P then new kid on the block, which started the end of the VMS-on-workstations era.  N So if Sun announced bad times, I am more likely to apply those bad news to theQ rest of the industry as well instead of saying only Sun is experiencing problems.s  K The impact on Carly's folly is that if she had structured everything hoping K that the end of the recession would offset the costs of the merger, she may L find that the continuing recession will instead make the costs of the mergerN look much worse. The bright side is on the wintel side since much overcapacityM will be eliminated which should help aintain margins on wintel crap, but thisr/ will apply to all vendors equally, not just HP.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:10:53 GMTp# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly-J Message-ID: <hjQb9.138588$8aG1.63091@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  7 "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in message-% news:ako4dm$8q5$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov...D > Even more appropriate@D > for this newsgroup would be how to position VMS where reliability,H > stability, and security needs can create niche markets in an otherwise > Windows and UNIX world.   = Loads of good ideas have been suggested to DEC / Compaq / HP.  Few have been acted on.e   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 16:02:42 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlyr3 Message-ID: <gBU2LyZKw2Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3D6FB3D4.B19E141C@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > K > Lets not forget that Sun wasn't created during the .COM era. Sun may haveq2 > taken advantage of .COM, but it was big before.   C    Let us also remember the clueless reseller who was claiming thath     Sun was the . in .com for gov   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:23:14 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly ' Message-ID: <3D701FBD.2B627ABE@fsi.net>t   John Smith wrote:u > 9 > "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in messageu' > news:ako4dm$8q5$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov...a > > Even more appropriate F > > for this newsgroup would be how to position VMS where reliability,J > > stability, and security needs can create niche markets in an otherwise > > Windows and UNIX world.n > ? > Loads of good ideas have been suggested to DEC / Compaq / HP.l > Fewt   ..., if any, ...   > have been acted on.p   -- s David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:52:53 -0400 K From: "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net>I( Subject: HP-ETS 2002 Conference Overview. Message-ID: <un08c2hb25598@corp.supernews.com>  < http://www.encompassus.org/images/pdfs/hpets2002overview.pdf   --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.cc-  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:59:25 -07001. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D6FC08D.D5B9585B@lmco.nospam.com>e   Bob, Thanks for the response.   A Windows port of GNU.   JMKa   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:22:04 -0700 . From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D6FC5DC.E4FF79F7@lmco.nospam.com>i   Jason,  C Oh if this were only a VMS issue, the questions wouldn't have to beu asked!  H However, this is a CXX question, and it has been in such a state of fluxG these last few months, that often times the documentation can't keep upn with the issues.  = Thus, this newsgroup is often the best source of information.0     Jeff  G P.S. As an example of how the documentation is in a state of flux -- go-? to the website you recommended and type in CXX and see what themH resulting web page gives you.  I did it, and nothing about CXX comes up!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:56:00 -07000. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D6FCDD0.DB1730E2@lmco.nospam.com>n   Thanks for the tip!d   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:09:49 -0700 . From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D6FD10D.4C9446CB@lmco.nospam.com>    Jason,  G Thanks for the tips.  The CXX documentation has been in such a state ofrF flux these past few months that this newsgroup is often times a betterF source.  For example try going to the site you recommended and type in CXX.    & Hopefully, things will stabilize soon.   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:55:36 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXXK Message-ID: <rdeininger-3008021755360001@1cust175.tnt3.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>E  3 In article <3D6FC04A.B1CE201D@lmco.nospam.com>, JMKi+ <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com> wrote:j   >Jason,n >Thanks for the response.r >yG >It sounds like you haven't tried the documentation for a while.  Go toHG >the website you proposed, and plug in CXX and tell me what *you* get. uH >The resulting website I'm sent to says nothing about CXX.   I see COBOL: >and Fortran mentioned, and some C a bit below, but no CXX  > http://www.compaq.com/products/software/compilers/candcxx.html? http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/cplus/cplus_index.htmlrC http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/cplus/alpha_doc/index.htmleA http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/cplus/alpha_doc/ugv.htmlo    Do any of these meet your needs?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:42:38 -0700o. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D7010FE.6CCC564D@lmco.nospam.com>M   Bob,   Thanks for the response.  A The .../cplus_index.html page comes up, but the sites of interest ? referenced on that page don't come up -- they're blank.  One inyE particular that looked very promising -- the .../ugv.html was blank. bC I'm being real, I'm reloading the page, and they are not coming up.-  E This kind of trouble is what I have consistently experienced over thee4 past few months with regards to CXX documentation.    ) As before, I'm hoping for an improvement.0    " Thanks for the suggestions though,   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:45:47 -0700r. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D7011BB.B379ABE5@lmco.nospam.com>w   Bob,   Thanks for the response.  A The .../cplus_index.html page comes up, but the sites of interesto? referenced on that page don't come up -- they're blank.  One in E particular that looked very promising -- the .../ugv.html was blank. sC I'm being real, I'm reloading the page, and they are not coming up.o  E This kind of trouble is what I have consistently experienced over the 4 past few months with regards to CXX documentation.    ) As before, I'm hoping for an improvement.i    " Thanks for the suggestions though,   Jeff   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:59:17 +0100 (MET)c9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> B Subject: Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements; Message-ID: <01KLX603KGF69QUS7H@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  & > CSWB is Mozilla with a Compaq badge.  A Right, but I believe the current versions are based on different w versions of the mozilla source.w  9 > CSWB is behind Mozilla version-wise for obvious reasonso% > (Compaq needs to test things etc.).r   Right.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:10:18 -0700h> From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My-Full-Name@intel-com.spam-ban>* Subject: Re: Products incl in NAS package.2 Message-ID: <3D6FD12A.DACB6D52@intel-com.spam-ban>   Martin Walker wrote:  H > I think you are wrong about VMScluster being in NAS-200.  NAS has beenN > through various versions & some products have been added in and taken out asG > versions change.  But I don't think NAS-200 ever included VMScluster.s! > NAS-300 DOES include it though.  >u9 > According to the latest SPD I have, NAS-200 contains...r  6     While I agree that the SPD is the Last Word(tm) on5 what NET-APP-SUP-200 entitles, from a practical point 2 of view, VMSINSTAL_LMFGROUPS.COM controls what VMS7 (or LMF) will do on an active system.  On our VMS 7.2-1e2 (Alpha of course) systems, NET-APP-SUP-200 enables3 VMSCLUSTER.  By comparison, NET_APP_SUP-150 enables 3 only VMSCLUSTER-CLIENT, which, IIRC, disables MSCP-b7 serving of local disks, e.g., from workstations.  YMMV.n       -Ken  5 P.S. This file is _not_ present on VAX 7.1 systems...s --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken FairfieldP! D1C Automation VMS System Supporto kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comn   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Aug 2002 04:37:43 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: re white boxen - Message-ID: <8765xsxeug.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  + Thomas Harris <tharris@stewart.com> writes:r  = > 	%APB-F-BADSYSROOT System root (SYSA) does not exist, check  > 	bootflags  A Ah, it was running T64 before. A botflag of A means Autostart not-1 Single user. Re-set the boot flag, probably to 0.    -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.k@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:10:54 -0400v- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>kB Subject: Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...), Message-ID: <3D6FB52A.5589DB8F@videotron.ca>   Art Beane wrote: > 
 > Hey, Terry:n > 7 > You forgot to provide a link to the new VAX products:W > 1 > http://www.vax.co.uk/pages/navigation/flash.htm   E You mean when Compaq announced the end of the production/sales of VAXfN products, it omitted to say that its main rival woudl continue to produce them0 and come out with new, more versatile products ?  L I thing that Digital's VAXes never collected spills from the floor. In fact,L there is at least on 750 (node name VAXBAR) who probably caused a few spills :-) :-) :-) :-)o  1 http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.htmla   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 16:07:22 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)lB Subject: RE: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...)3 Message-ID: <+lMMPUIcpj5J@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEEOFKAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:fF > I think HP should get an injunction, this could cause some confusion > in the marketplace.o  6    Naw, DEC never made a model 6130, 6130s, or 6130sx.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:25:11 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> B Subject: Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...), Message-ID: <3D6FE2A6.AF032E62@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:8 >    Naw, DEC never made a model 6130, 6130s, or 6130sx.  J Are you sure about the 6130 ? There was a vax 6000, so wouldn't there have been perhaps a 6100 ?-  K Perhaps the 6130 is just a 6130 with additional reverse ventilation in it ?.  N What i noticed is the orange. Reminiscent of the VMS documentation back in its glory days.F   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:35:55 GMTu1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>:F Subject: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?. Message-ID: <ujTb9.236506$me6.32409@sccrnsc01>  	 Check outa  I www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org. More news, minimal BS, no blather fromn non-customer trolls.   -- Terry C. Shannon+ Consultant and Publisher, Shannon Knows HPC 8 Director, Technical Communications, Science Medicus Inc.% Director at Large, Encompass US, Inc.  terryshannon@attbi.com http://www.openvms.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:13:47 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D701849.620F0ADA@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:rK > www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org. More news, minimal BS, no blather froms > non-customer trolls.  % In other words, edited HP propaganda.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:28:52 -0700h6 From: "Howard Taylor" <Howard.Taylor@pacificcoast.net>J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?  Message-ID: <3d703638$1@nubby2.>  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:ujTb9.236506$me6.32409@sccrnsc01... > Check outa >tK > www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org. More news, minimal BS, no blather fromp > non-customer trolls. >   F Well, although we have to put up with blather from trolls, whiners and- non-customers, it doesn't cost $395/year! :-)n  
 Howard Taylorr   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 03:47:03 GMTp, From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?= Message-ID: <X_Wb9.57802$Xa.3094329@twister.southeast.rr.com>d  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D701849.620F0ADA@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:tH > > www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org. More news, minimal BS, no blather from > > non-customer trolls. >-' > In other words, edited HP propaganda.:  : Damn, here we go again.  No, OpenVMS and Tru64 propaganda.  I Try to do or say something positive and you become a lackey, is that whatCI you think JF?  Do you hate HP more than you love OpenVMS?  Do you want toiH help promote it or do you want to continue to drag it through the mud byL striking out at the merger and HP management?  This continued bashing is not getting anyone anywhere.  I I understand that you're upset because Alpha was terminated and you thinknJ OpenVMS deserves more attention.  It's not too late for OpenVMS. Stick andK drive man!  We need to pick up the ball and run with it.  The glass is halffL full.  The merger might not have gone the way you/we preferred but that's okF because we refuse to lay down, get on your feet and fight for OpenVMS.J Don't strike out at the people who are trying to pick up the pieces.  StayA engaged and help spread the word. OpenVMS is "The Gold Standard."p  H Use your talent and energy to write a technical or executive level paperK about OpenVMS that describes it's virtues.  You'll be helping the communityd' and promoting OpenVMS at the same time.    --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPC.orgg   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:44:23 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>MJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D704997.2D0C5439@videotron.ca>   Kenneth Farmer wrote:rK > Try to do or say something positive and you become a lackey, is that what  > you think JF?   H I was responding to Mr Shannon's accusations that this forum was full ofP "lackeys" while the www.openvms.org one was all nice without complaints etc etc.  M If you have a forum where customers can only say positive things, then I calld that a propaganda forum. m  F If HP would prefer customers didn't complain, it needs to do very few,I inexpensive things and they have been outlined here, and directly to manyiF Compaq/HP employees over the years. Yet, these people have either beenL unwilling, or prevented from taking such simple, inexpensive actions. And itL is exactly because of this that many customers question HP's true intentions with regards to VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 05:10:18 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?@ Message-ID: <_cYb9.49707$On.2451541@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  7 "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> wrote in messagee7 news:X_Wb9.57802$Xa.3094329@twister.southeast.rr.com...    ...r  K > Try to do or say something positive and you become a lackey, is that what  > you think JF?   H I can't answer for JF, but it's not what I think.  However, I *do* thinkC that such efforts can be severely misguided if not *very* carefully 	 directed.   , > Do you hate HP more than you love OpenVMS?  K The problem is that this is exactly the trade-off that Compaq created.  AndrK I suspect it did so knowingly.  "Hey, the only VMS customers left are thosePI who either can't leave VMS or won't leave VMS.  So what if we kick 'em inpC the nuts:  what are they going to do about it?  Hell, they'll be so J uncomfortable with the idea that their vendor is so sleazy that they mightK have to look elsewhere that they'll stitch their eyes shut before admittinge> it.  And the few that might admit it will just leave quietly."     Do you want toJ > help promote it or do you want to continue to drag it through the mud by/ > striking out at the merger and HP management?   L You are confused.  Criticism of the merger and HP management in no way drags: VMS through the mud, just its owners - and justifiably so.     This continued bashing is not0 > getting anyone anywhere.  K Not true according to Terry, who has stated more than once that it's givingeI significant help to cHumPaq's competitors.  While I would like to believeBG this, I don't trust Terry any farther than I could drop-kick him (which J likely wouldn't be very far, but I'd sure try for all the distance I couldK get given the opportunity):  I suspect it's just another ploy to try to getmH people to shut up and just accept that they've been screwed and can't do diddly-squat about it.  J Which, of course, is entirely incorrect:  they *are* doing something aboutK it, enough to make at least some people nervous about its effect.  And this H is a prime climate in which to continue:  confidence in the integrity ofJ corporations is at a major low (with good reason, some of which we've seenG right here), and the economy has HP in a tighter place than it's likelyw comfortable with.t   >MK > I understand that you're upset because Alpha was terminated and you thinkeB > OpenVMS deserves more attention.  It's not too late for OpenVMS.  K That's debatable.  But what's not at all in question is that the current HP I leadership cannot be trusted:  they'd swear on a stack of Bibles to love,pH honor, and cherish VMS for eternity and then drop it in a second if they
 felt like it./  L So that leaves a couple of possibilities:  either push HP hard enough to getK Carly&Curly to make some *real* (read:  financial) commitments to VMS, withtI immediately-funded promotion and new development (sincerity would also berL nice, but is not an available option with those two), or push HP hard enoughL to get rid of C&C and get some untainted management in that at least *might* be amenable to reasoning with.  L And neither possibility is as far-fetched as it might appear.  Do you reallyG believe that Curly would still be Compaq's CEO now if the merger hadn'tRK temporarily saved his ass?  Or that Carly would still be head of HP (though H that's less certain:  she could talk a fox out of a chicken coop)?  TheyF bought an extra year or so by confusing the issue with the merger, butJ there'll still be an accounting and the ledger isn't looking all that goodL right now - so even a small amount of strategically-applied force could have a disproportionate effect.  
  Stick andH > drive man!  We need to pick up the ball and run with it.  The glass is half > full.e  L And you are touchingly naive.  Which is not a mortal sin, but neither a good rallying point.e  G   The merger might not have gone the way you/we preferred but that's okeH > because we refuse to lay down, get on your feet and fight for OpenVMS.  J The way to fight for VMS is to fight for better management of it.  WithoutH that, any external efforts will very likely be completely wasted ("Don'tK worry, Mom!  We'll just go down to the scrapyard, get some parts, and buildMI a tractor so we can save the farm!" works only in children's stories, and D not very good ones at that).  But *with* proper management, any such# external efforts will be magnified.-  K Your way has been tried - exhaustively, and with many variations - for most@J of the last decade.  It hasn't worked, and there's no reason whatsoever toJ think that it will work now.  But while the carrot has failed, now happens/ to be a very good time indeed to try the stick.p   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:51:28 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>X+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week., Message-ID: <3D6FB09D.BF1D510D@videotron.ca>   Atlant Schmidt wrote::4 > RMS was a step in this direction, but it didn't go0 > far enough as it didn't encompass this idea of0 > "creator" (identifying the preferred consumer)5 > or "filetype" (identifying the set of all potential1
 > consumers).o  I With the introduction of of the CDA (compound document architecture), RMSoN gained that ability though the RMS semantics tag. Lots of info could be stored/ in there to direct how a file would be handled.u  I Look at what happens when you try to type on a character cell terminal, ay DECwrite DDIF document.sM RMS captures the semantics tag, figures out you want only character cell infowH and "converts" the file to text on the fly so it can be displayed on the character cell terminal.  K This could have been developped much further, unfortunatly, Bobby GQ cannedi5 the CDA stuff and sold the converters to a 3rd party.l  H Note that ALL-IN-1 has always had lots of "apple like" metadata for eachM document including the document type and handling fields which dictate how itmI is treated. It has built-in "converters" which allow you for instance, to N include a richly formatted WPSPLUS document in the TPU editor that is embeddedJ with A1. The architecture was such that you could add yoru own file types,M unfortunatly, the documentation on how to do that was never widely available.rM But WPSPLUS did write their interface to ALL-IN-1 so that its documents could  be treated transparently.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:25:06 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weeko' Message-ID: <3D6FBDBB.9ACBA956@fsi.net>t   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3D6EF070.77BDC52D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o > ' > > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ dir [.mytest]*.*CI > > %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA.MYTEST]*.*;* as inputt3 > > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failedp4 > > -SYSTEM-W-BADIRECTORY, bad directory file format > > L > > Note, however, that the facility reporting the error at the intermediate7 > > level is RMS, not ODS as I personally would expect.n > H > Even Oracle DBMS (and Rdb), which do not use RMS to access their data,G > rely on RMS for directory operations.  Direct QIO access to directory F > information is possible, but it is a lot of work to keep up with theD > changes (e.g., ODS-5) compared to relying on RMS for most of that.  G I guess it's because I was working on RSTS/E V7.2 or so when we got ourEC first VMS systems. To me, RMS was a layer on top of the native file/H system. IIRC, the Task Builder was perfectly happy to build a Basic-PlusE program into an image without RMS support and it would run just fine.,  F It makes sense to me that the "filesystem" (read: ODS) layer should doF the job of traversing the on-disk data structures (read: "perform fileG lookups") and in doing so could use the "file system" (read: RMS) layer- to perform record I/O.  F ...but that's just me. YMMV, some restrictions apply, not available inD all areas, void where prohibited or taxed by law, adults 21 and overD only, no purchase necessary, consult an expert before investing, see store display for details, ...   -- u David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:18:10 GMTS1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> + Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week ' Message-ID: <3D6FBC1A.12B53F30@fsi.net>    Bill Todd wrote: > K > OK, since no one with recent knowledge seems to be trying to explain this - > behavior, I'll try to dredge up what I can:  > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D6EF070.77BDC52D@fsi.net...P > > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: >  > ...T >  > > > Apparently, 5 > > > F$PARSE doesn't check if it's corrupted or not.. > >V > > Apparently:  > K > IIRC $PARSE on the 11 performed no I/O:  it just looked at syntax (and, IeL > think, performed at least some logical name translation - but perhaps onlyG > if no nodespec was discovered).  That, after all, is pretty much what-M > 'parse' means - and since there's no guarantee that it's being applied to aoI > path specification on the local system, doing otherwise could be fairlyc > restrictive. > N > Now, on VMS it may do some actual look-up if no nodespec is discovered (thatM > may be controlled by the 'syntax only' qualifier mentioned), but it's still E > not surprising that it might not check something that looked like a09 > directory if it was the last path element specified ...C   [snip]   For what it may be worth:   G DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say f$parse("[.foo.bar]mytest.tmp",,,,"syntax_only") # DKA0:[DDACHTERA.FOO.BAR]MYTEST.TMP;WB DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say """", f$parse("[.foo.bar]mytest.tmp"), """" "" DJAS01::DDACHTERA$     -- . David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/S   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:33:35 GMT21 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> + Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weeki' Message-ID: <3D6FBFB7.D6EB804E@fsi.net>/   Carl Perkins wrote:v > _ > In article <3D6EEDF7.859766F7@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...s
 > } [snip]K > }I've often thought that there is a "blurring" of the ODS and RMS layers, I > }that RMS is attributed with certain file system functions while ODS ist5 > }attributed with certain record-oriented functions.n > }(I > }Maybe VMS(, UN*X, Linux, etc.) needs a disk data storage equivalent topJ > }the "seven layer model", huh? ...so there would be clearer distinctionsG > }between the operations of the ODS (filesystem) and RMS (file system, E > }with a space between the words) layers, and which layer does what.  > G > Or maybe it should just check the attribute in the appropriate placeseG > to make sure that it is supposed to be a directory file before tryingc* > to do directory file type stuff with it. > E > For the most part it is fine as it is, but it might be better if it E > checked. It would eliminate the situation that prevents the F$PARSE-C > test from being all you need to do to check for the exsistance off > a directory.  G Then again, consistency in the usage of file extensions easily preventsrD that, until such time as the system services and facilities are 100%G consistent in this regard. Until then, perhaps we'd do better to assumeuG the concept of "reserved extensions", even if the doc. does not specifyr this explicitly.  @ Nah - that'd be too much like an "absolute", and as we all know, absolutes don't exist. ;-)   -- r David J. Dachteraf dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:58:22 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>?+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week0' Message-ID: <3D6FC585.665CEC1B@fsi.net>w   "Bochnik, William J" wrote:  >  > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  > Sent: August 29, 2002 11:39 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc- > Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week, >  > [snip]D > Hhmmm... Guess that extension doesn't mean what its says, does it?8 > ------------------------------------------------------ > G > that's right - it doesnt.  Assuming file type based on extension is as+ > windows "thing" that is not a good idea. D  C Really??!! Is it now???!!! Gee, and all these years I was under the.H impression that RSX, IAS, RSTS/E, VMS, etc. pre-dated Windows by as muchH as a decade or more! ...and no, I won't mention the way DOS treats .BAT,9 .COM and .EXE files... (Yes, even DOS pre-dates windows!)0  ! > VMS has a CONVENTION as to whataJ > extensions should map to what file types, but it's just a CONVENTION forJ > convenience - some programs will assume if you let them, and some thingsJ > like the directory lookup aspects of the command interpreter want to seeI > dir;1, but the actual file type is stored in metadata where it belongs.s    What I find interesting is this:  & DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ help lex f$pars arg   Lexicals  	   F$PARSEt  
     Argumentsw 	. 	. 	.       field,  D          Specifies a character string containing the name of a fieldF          in a file specification. Specifying the field argument causesD          the F$PARSE function to return a specific portion of a file          specification.   F          Specify one of the following field names (do not abbreviate):            NODE       Node namet          DEVICE     Device name7"          DIRECTORY  Directory name          NAME       File namew!      --> TYPE       File type <--r'          VERSION    File version number   E Notice it says file "TYPE", not "EXTENSION". Wonder if the authors ofn2 VMS(, RSX, etc.) made certain invalid assumptions?   Let's test that a bit further.   DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ @mytestA %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.COM; as inputO -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ run mytest . %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image MYTESTA -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.EXE;t% DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ set command mytestaA %CDU-E-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.CLD; as inputp -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ link mytestB %LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.OBJ; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found/ DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ libr sys$help:helplib mytestpH %LIBRAR-F-OPENIN, error opening SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP]HELPLIB.OLB; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found6 DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ libr/mac sys$library:starlet mytestD %LIBRAR-W-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.MAR; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found9 DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ libr/text sys$library:STARLETSD mytest D %LIBRAR-W-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.TXT; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ type mytestC %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.LIS;w -RMS-E-FNF, file not found" DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ open tst mytestA %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.DAT; as inputo -RMS-E-FNF, file not found/ DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ create/fdl=mytest mytest.dato9 %FDL-F-OPENFDL, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.FDL;t -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ print mytestoC %PRINT-E-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.LIS; as inputg -RMS-E-FNF, file not found# %PRINT-F-CREJOB, error creating jobs -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ subm mytestD %SUBMIT-F-OPENIN, error opening DKA0:[DDACHTERA]MYTEST.COM; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ unzip mytest 9 unzip:  can't find either MYTEST or MYTEST.zip, so there.   > No, I guess you're right. "Filetype extensions" (remember thatG terminology from the pre-VMS o.s. documentation?) *ARE* meaningless. Soe# far, I've only found one exception:    DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ mess mytest1 %MESSAGE-F-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for MYTEST  -RMS-E-FNF, file not found   -- n David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:23:36 -0400i- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>i+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week"6 Message-ID: <akognv$1kru0q$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D6FC585.665CEC1B@fsi.net...  > ...a@ > No, I guess you're right. "Filetype extensions" (remember thatI > terminology from the pre-VMS o.s. documentation?) *ARE* meaningless. Soe > ...l   Completely meaningless;a   $ create mytest.exe "         type *, 'The program ran.'         endh <Exit> $ for mytest.exe/obj=mytest.ford  $ link mytest.for/exe=mytest.obj $ run mytest.obj The program ran. $h  D I remember one person who kept his text-only resume in a file calledF newpay.exe in his development are, he figured nobody would find it and$ figure out he was looking for a job.   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:07:21 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> + Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week J Message-ID: <ZfQb9.138583$8aG1.53425@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D6FB09D.BF1D510D@videotron.ca... >cK > With the introduction of of the CDA (compound document architecture), RMS I > gained that ability though the RMS semantics tag. Lots of info could be  stored1 > in there to direct how a file would be handled.s > K > Look at what happens when you try to type on a character cell terminal, ad > DECwrite DDIF document.rJ > RMS captures the semantics tag, figures out you want only character cell infoJ > and "converts" the file to text on the fly so it can be displayed on the > character cell terminal. >iF > This could have been developped much further, unfortunatly, Bobby GQ canned7 > the CDA stuff and sold the converters to a 3rd party.l  K Maybe HP should find out which of these 3rd-parties have gone under and buy: back the products for pennies.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 15:50:31 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this week 3 Message-ID: <a9l6jIrw7pv5@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  c In article <3D6F855F.C790DB27@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:.   > Because of this, filew, > extensions on the Macintosh are never more- > than a hint used to resolve what to do withw$ > files imported from other systems.  +    You haven't really tried OS X, have you.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 15:52:14 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weeka3 Message-ID: <yl+oJg5uXC1B@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  [ In article <3D6FBDBB.9ACBA956@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t > I > I guess it's because I was working on RSTS/E V7.2 or so when we got ourmE > first VMS systems. To me, RMS was a layer on top of the native filenJ > system. IIRC, the Task Builder was perfectly happy to build a Basic-PlusG > program into an image without RMS support and it would run just fine.   C    I don't know about RSTS, but on RSX if you didn't build with RMSoD    it fell back to FCS.  FCS was more primitive than RMS, but served    the same purpose.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:04:22 +1200b From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>r+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weeke2 Message-ID: <iAUb9.1692$Y3.259994@news.xtra.co.nz>  9 "John Lewocz" <jlewocz@poczta.wprost.pl> wrote in messagea7 news:89cc5656.0208271642.148efafa@posting.google.com...s   <<snip>>  F > Suppose your entire family got killed in a plane crash.  Under which > of theF > following circumstances would you really want to wring someone neck:   <<snip>>  $ > Pilot error due to cockpit design.  7 = bad cockpit design. Should have been designed better. 9 The pilot in question may or may not have tried to do hisW2 best but the design prevented him from doing that.   >  Arrogance from company (andH > supporters).  "It's not our fault your family chose a pilot who wasn't  > good enough to fly our planes.  E It is. Your pilot must be certified to fly it. Not to mention all theu> indemnity and insurance clauses inherent in even trying to get that plane off the ground.  ' >  It's all in the manual.   So what ifiE > the section in question is in Turkish.   Should have chosen a pilotn  > who bothered to learn Turkish.  > Well, I guess if the plane is never going to leave the TurkishC airspace that might be alright (if any air traffic controller wants-, to rebuke me for that - have a field day ;-)  # >  It's not our fault our air speedeF > indicators look different than in those of any other plane.   Should. > have chosen a pilot who never gets confused.  ; No, just the one who can read your indicators. And, on top,u3 it would be *your* responsibility to ensure he can.h  D > People who die in the street on their first day in a country whereE > they drive on the other side of the road don't deserve life anyway.e  A Well, if you do that and die in a collision (and kill some peoplea= in the other car(s) to boot, don't expect much sympathy. But,u? that simply means that you went against the rules - "your bad".    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:27:45 GMTy1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weeke' Message-ID: <3D7020CC.5CDF02D6@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > ] > In article <3D6FBDBB.9ACBA956@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t > >yK > > I guess it's because I was working on RSTS/E V7.2 or so when we got our G > > first VMS systems. To me, RMS was a layer on top of the native file L > > system. IIRC, the Task Builder was perfectly happy to build a Basic-PlusI > > program into an image without RMS support and it would run just fine.  > E >    I don't know about RSTS, but on RSX if you didn't build with RMSeF >    it fell back to FCS.  FCS was more primitive than RMS, but served >    the same purpose.  A Yeah - same idea on RSTS/E: the o.s.'s native file system was the E default unless your program explicity required RMS. In such case, youlF had toinclude RMS in your .ODL file as well to make sure it was on the, root segment where it was always accessible.   -- h David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systemsc http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Aug 2002 03:37:04 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weekC- Message-ID: <87it1sxhnj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>T  0 SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  C > The file system assumes that anything of the form name.DIR;1 is atE > directory file. Everything else is considered a non-directory file.   D That's what *should* happen Alan. In fact, if you rename a directoryB file on top of an existing one, you end up with FOO.DIR;2, and theD files in ;1 `vanish'. :( DIR files are the ONLY place in ODS-2 where- highest version wins is not the way it plays.    Being fixed.   -- p< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.g@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Aug 2002 04:07:29 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Simple clusterh- Message-ID: <87elcgxg8u.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ; Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:f  C > > What is the cheapest way I can fix this problem?  I think a 2nd C > > Ethernet adapter in my ES40's with a crossover TP cable betweenv# > > the two machines might suffice.   l > Should work fine.   C In fact, if you have model 1 ES40s, you may want to spring for somei@ DE504s so you can expand if needed. Putting a bridge between the0 cluster and the evils of bill and IP also helps.   -- M< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.S@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 18:05:37 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)( Subject: Re: Strange F$TRNLNM behaviour?= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0208301705.56a456db@posting.google.com>.  [ Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message news:<ak7eko$npr$2@news1.xs4all.nl>...p= > (I tried to post this through Google, but it didn't appear)1 > > > [ OpenVMS Alpha V7.3, I don't think any ECO's are relevant ] > $ > Did anyone ever try the following? > + > $ TEMP = F$TRNLNM("SYSUAF",,,"EXECUTIVE")o > $ > TEMP will contain "", in spite of: >  > $ SHOW LOGICAL/FULL SYSUAFF >     "SYSUAF" [exec] = "<whereever>SYSUAF.DAT" (LNM$SYSCLUSTER_TABLE) > E > (No, it makes no difference if you have SYSUAF in LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)  >  > Also,  >  > $ TEMP = F$TRNLNM("SYSUAF")  > < > gives the expected value in TEMP, "<whereever>SYSUAF.DAT". >  > G > The reason seems to be that the default value for the second argumenteC > to F$TRNLNM is LNM$DCL_LOGICAL. LNM$DCL_LOGICAL is, by default, a H > SUPERVISOR mode logical name which translates to LNM$FILE_DEV. BecauseD > F$TRNLNM is instructed to ignore any equivalences in an outer modeE > than EXECUTIVE, it does not use the equivalence of LNM$FILE_LOGICAL"H > and therefore it has no table to look for SYSUAF. It does not issue an8 > error message, nor does it return a different $STATUS. > 
 > If I do: > H > $ DEFINE/EXEC/TABLE=LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY LNM$DCL_LOGICAL LNM$FILE_DEV+ > $ TEMP = F$TRNLNM("SYSUAF",,,"EXECUTIVE")  >  > I get the expected result. >  > OK, so far, so good. > A > The funny thing is, that LNM$FILE_DEV is also a SUPERVISOR modeE > logical name. But: > 9 > $ TEMP = F$TRNLNM("SYSUAF","LNM$FILE_DEV",,"EXECUTIVE")v > & > DOES give the translation of SYSUAF! > & > This does not seem consistent to me. >  > Am I missing something?  > 
 > Regards, >  > Bart Zorn     = The reason appears to be that LNM$FILE_DEV is defined both ina@ supervisor mode (as the usual search list -- see below) *and* in/ executive mode as LNM$SYSTEM. That explains whyg  9 > $ TEMP = F$TRNLNM("SYSUAF","LNM$FILE_DEV",,"EXECUTIVE")e  E works. In this case, F$TRNLNM is using the executive equivalence nameeF for LNM$FILE_DEV. If you define a logical name in the process table inC executive mode, then the above won't work (if you replace SYSUAF byh that logical name, of course).  B You need to append an asterisk to the logical name in question for  SHOW LOGICAL to check all modes:     With trailing asterisk:o  8 $ SHOW LOGICAL/FULL LNM$FILE_DEV* /TABLE=LNM$DIRECTORIES  - (LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY) [kernel]  [directory]o3                         [no protection information]o  e7 (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)  [kernel]  [shareable,directory] D                         [Protection=(RWC,RWC,R,R)]  [Owner=[SYSTEM]]  r(   "LNM$FILE_DEV" [super] = "LNM$PROCESS"         = "LNM$JOB"r         = "LNM$GROUP"h         = "LNM$SYSTEM"&   "LNM$FILE_DEV" [exec] = "LNM$SYSTEM"     Without trailing asterisk:  7 $ SHOW LOGICAL/FULL LNM$FILE_DEV /TABLE=LNM$DIRECTORIES @    "LNM$FILE_DEV" [super] = "LNM$PROCESS" (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)         = "LNM$JOB")         = "LNM$GROUP"t         = "LNM$SYSTEM": 1  "LNM$PROCESS" [kernel] = "LNM$PROCESS_TABLE" [terminal] (LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY).5 1  "LNM$JOB" [kernel] = "LNM$JOB_833959C0" [terminal]e (LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY)27 1  "LNM$GROUP" [kernel] = "LNM$GROUP_000050" [terminal]? (LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY)hA 1  "LNM$SYSTEM" [kernel,no_alias] = "LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE" [terminal]B (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  spamsink2001 at yahoo dot com:   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:06:24 -0400b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance, Message-ID: <3D6FB41D.F717C98B@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:F > In California the two sites are typically located so they are not onE > the same fault line.  In the midwest US the two sites are typicallyeD > located so they are not on the same bearing from each other as the& > path that tornados typically follow.  N Was it about a decade ago when there were the great floods along the missisipiK river ? Has that impacted how companies locate their computer sites in thata region ?   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Aug 2002 18:32:09 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance6 Message-ID: <akodn8$1kibdd$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  - In article <aknlqm$gfi$1@newsread.stdio.com>,  	bit-bucket@maney.org writes:pD > In comp.unix.solaris Bill Gunshannon <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote: >  > [...]J > J >: While I am not knocking the disaster tolerance of OpenVMS, there was/isJ >: a much cheaper solution to the disaster tolerance problem as related toE >: 9/11.  It's simple.  Put your critical datacenters in very obscureeK >: locations and don't advertise where they are.  With communications beingrM >: what it is today, what exactly was the advantage of putting the datacentern >: in the WTC building??  G >: And, considering 9/11, why would anyone put something that critical 72 >: anywhere it might be a target in the future??   > F > To me, being the paranoid nut that I am, this never made sense. OnceE > we got to the place where highspeed communications (voice and data)eD > are readily available damn near everywhere in the country, why didC > we keep packing it all into tight little areas that are atrociousDE > locations on so many levels (environmental impact, cost of living, E6 > standard of living, physical security, etc.. etc..)?  A My point exactly.  And one I have been stressing for two decades.f   > G >: Let's take a look at alternatives. How many terrorists do you think sB >: could find Forty-Fort, PA on a map, much less on the ground??   > ; > Or, more importantly for the 9/11 argument, from the air.L > C > What about Lexington, KY? Local airport with commercial passengerF > jet service, d   Got that here.  , >             multiple high internet links,    Got that here too.  > >                                           two universities,   ; We have 8 total, 3 with decent CS programs.  One acredited.-  D >                                                              large@ > supply of technical talent (well, at least in certain areas),   C People are easy to move.  Pay well in a low cost of living area and " it shold be easy to entice talent.  E >                                                               large ! > supply of unused office space, E  F Lots of available office space around here and even more room to buildD your own.  Probably get a lot of local Chamber of Commerce help too. Things like tax relief.R  C >                                 about an hour drive to two large D0 > metro areas (Cincinnati and Louisville).......  C We're 1 hour to Philly, 2 hours to NYC, 1.5 hours to Baltimore, 2.5DD hours to DC.  And that ignores Syracuse to the north and Harrisburg.   > = > Thousands and thousands of places like this in the country.T  6 True, so howcome businesses can't see the advantages??   > E >: All it takes to have real security and reliability is a change of u@ >: mindset.  And that's a lot harder to develop than technology. > H > And, unfortunately, it is something that doesn't seem to be developing > at all in this country.s  
 So true.  :-(    bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Aug 2002 14:10:30 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)u6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance3 Message-ID: <BTfKAJkvPWD0@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  a In article <akodn8$1kibdd$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:f/ > In article <aknlqm$gfi$1@newsread.stdio.com>,f > 	bit-bucket@maney.org writes: E >> In comp.unix.solaris Bill Gunshannon <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:t  H >>: Let's take a look at alternatives. How many terrorists do you think C >>: could find Forty-Fort, PA on a map, much less on the ground??  r  # It is just downriver from Pittston.t  < >> Or, more importantly for the 9/11 argument, from the air.  B Pittson is just down the hill from the Avoca Airport (now known asE Wilkes-Barre Scranton or vice versa).  And not only is Avoca adjacent B to Pittson, but technically Damon's Restaurant and the Holiday InnH Express which appear to be on airport property are actually in Pittston.  B I presume air hijackers would have maps showing airport locations,? so if they want to find Forty-Fort, all they have to do is read- comp.os.vms :-)3   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:28:14 -0400:- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>Z6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance, Message-ID: <3D6FC745.3C681303@videotron.ca>   bit-bucket@maney.org wrote:BG > Considering that there are far more shots fired in NYC every day thancF > in Idaho, I think worrying much about that is being overly paranoid.    I But a shot in NYC doesn't cause a whole heard of angry bisons to stampedelL towards your data centre and totally destroy it as they step over it :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:59:13 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster ToleranceI Message-ID: <l8Qb9.43870$6m61.36853@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D6FB41D.F717C98B@videotron.ca... > Larry Kilgallen wrote:H > > In California the two sites are typically located so they are not onG > > the same fault line.  In the midwest US the two sites are typicallygF > > located so they are not on the same bearing from each other as the( > > path that tornados typically follow. >eF > Was it about a decade ago when there were the great floods along the	 missisipi@H > river ? Has that impacted how companies locate their computer sites in that
 > region ?    F They put one underground....in the flood plain, and the other is aboveD ground in a trailer park with a big flashing sign that says "Tornado
 Crossing".   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:01:34 GMT0# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster ToleranceJ Message-ID: <yaQb9.138582$8aG1.18033@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ' <bit-bucket@maney.org> wrote in message>' news:aknlqm$gfi$1@newsread.stdio.com...nD > In comp.unix.solaris Bill Gunshannon <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote: >s > [...]  > K > : While I am not knocking the disaster tolerance of OpenVMS, there was/is K > : a much cheaper solution to the disaster tolerance problem as related to F > : 9/11.  It's simple.  Put your critical datacenters in very obscureL > : locations and don't advertise where they are.  With communications beingC > : what it is today, what exactly was the advantage of putting thee
 datacenter > : in the WTC building??-G > : And, considering 9/11, why would anyone put something that criticalc1 > : anywhere it might be a target in the future??e >eF > To me, being the paranoid nut that I am, this never made sense. OnceE > we got to the place where highspeed communications (voice and data)fD > are readily available damn near everywhere in the country, why didC > we keep packing it all into tight little areas that are atrociousmD > locations on so many levels (environmental impact, cost of living,6 > standard of living, physical security, etc.. etc..)? > G > : Let's take a look at alternatives. How many terrorists do you thinkhA > : could find Forty-Fort, PA on a map, much less on the ground??t >.; > Or, more importantly for the 9/11 argument, from the air.  > C > What about Lexington, KY? Local airport with commercial passengerpD > jet service, multiple high internet links, two universities, largeE > supply of technical talent (well, at least in certain areas), largegA > supply of unused office space, about an hour drive to two largeh0 > metro areas (Cincinnati and Louisville)....... >o= > Thousands and thousands of places like this in the country.e > E > : All it takes to have real security and reliability is a change of A > : mindset.  And that's a lot harder to develop than technology.e >rH > And, unfortunately, it is something that doesn't seem to be developing > at all in this country.n     Management ostriches at work.u  C Read the article about Bruce Schneirer in August's Atlantic Monthlyw0 (reference posted in c.o.v. earlier this month).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:38:10 -0500t& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance8 Message-ID: <9rlvmukrphupholhomg3drc7iml2nc8if4@4ax.com>  D On 30 Aug 2002 10:43:35 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:   >h >BB >	There seems to be rules of thumbs in all this.  Not speaking for@ >	anyone but I do know that I would be more comfortable if sites< >	were 10 miles apart.  I know folks that have DR sites lessB >	than 3, 4 miles apart.  Much of this DR stuff is an exercise forA >	many people.  After all, it is statistically rare , but can youD* >	take the chance?  Sounds like sales, eh? >y  6 And, of course, this also depends... on your location.@ If you live in the southern states near the gulf, or the easternA states near the atlantic coast, 10 miles may not be enough duringy hurricane season.k   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:25:57 GMTm% From: "Yong Liu" <fdu9774@rogers.com>n% Subject: The steps to setup a printeruH Message-ID: <VhSb9.41345$GK2.20128@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Hi,w  G I appreciate everyone's response about decnet-plus. Very helpful. ThosemL logical steps make things easier. But HP/Compaq's documentation people never do it that way.   0 Can you summarize the steps to set up a printer.   Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:10:17 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>J) Subject: Re: The steps to setup a printeri, Message-ID: <3D701777.46993FD3@videotron.ca>   Yong Liu wrote:o2 > Can you summarize the steps to set up a printer.  L If it is a simple, ascii, non postscript printer, then HELP QUEUE  will give you an overview.  L If you have a postscript printer and you want to set it up with the goodoes,K you need the DCPS product which is installed separately. It has the startup D files that have examples in them on how to setup the printer queues.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:50:37 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>. Subject: Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changesC Message-ID: <NfOb9.309134$2p2.12805960@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>w  7 "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> wrote in messagen8 news:BwNb9.37940$iX4.1435286@twister.southeast.rr.com...G > Oh, you weren't supposed to notice that.  I had dinner with Carly andn@ > Michael the other day and they asked me to remove it.  Sheesh! >6I > You're thinking too much Bill.  The changes are an effort on my part to  drawG > more traffic and participation in the forums.  I'm not trying to hide  > anything.g   I apologize to you as well.l   ...o  7 > As I write this I see you posted a few more comments.e  B But apparently didn't read the most recent ones, though since newsD propagates unpredictably you may not have received them at the time.     I only have oneeK > question for you.  Have you taken your medicine today?  You know what thel) > doctor said about your mood swings.  :)i  L My mood, unfortunately, has been pretty even for the past 14 months:  mad atL Compaq and its toadies all the time.  While I make absolutely no apology forJ that, I do regret that once in a while that mood seeps over into unrelated discussions.  D This was not, however, an unrelated discussion.  And the appearance,E admittedly based on inadequate analysis, was not good.  So while I do H without reservation apologize for having been mistaken in this instance,C don't mistake that for any more general apology:  as with most such K discussions (and unlike a great many here) I make a real effort to check myMH assertions, and to recheck them when they're questioned - which is why II retracted my earlier comments after looking into the matter for the thirdt time.B  L There are aspects of the post-6/25/01 situation that resemble the Civil War.K "It's about slavery!"  "No!  It's about states' rights!" translate to "It'snJ about integrity!"  "No!  It's about a company's right to pursue its visionJ [sic]!"  The bottom line is that it pits former friends against each otherF and gets ugly, and that it's not going to go away until either cHumPaqK radically changes its attitude or sufficient damage has been inflicted that L no one is going to want to repeat the experience (or the actions that led up to it) any time soon.T   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:07:49 -0500 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com> . Subject: Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changesG Message-ID: <craigberry-9E02EA.13074930082002@news.directvinternet.com>e  C In article <RXMb9.294495$m91.11958914@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, ,  "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  L > > Next time, at least *try* to make *something* in your response accurate. > M > As I said before, mea culpa.  This is the first time I've ever been tempteddF > to cancel a post, but that wouldn't have been adequately apologetic.  F Apology accepted.  I've cancelled the longer reply I was in the midst E of since it mostly inferred what Ken has now stated with authority.  K2 Try not to judge so harshly and quickly next time.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:19:10 GMTP, From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>. Subject: Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes> Message-ID: <yGOb9.37965$iX4.1442140@twister.southeast.rr.com>    Enough of this foulishness Bill!  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageV: news:RxMb9.38703$On.1869707@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > D > "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com> wrote in messageC > news:craigberry-162531.10335330082002@news.directvinternet.com...oF > > In article <NZBb9.170890$Aw4.7312173@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,0 > >  "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > >cH > > > One really can't help but wonder why the most active fora on these sitesh. > > > suddenly became so cloaked in obscurity: > >d9 > > Today there is a new "General" forum" at openvms.org,C >tL > What an amazing coincidence!  And to think that it was only yesterday that IDC > happened to notice the lack of one!  Surely there couldn't be anyc > connection...   L There is a connection!  I added it because you kinda sounded like you wanted	 it there.e   >  so there are now I > > 5 out of 6 fora linked from the home page instead 4 out of 5 as there_G > > were yesterday.  The only forum not linked from the home page (bothhH > > yesterday and today) is one on the HP/Compaq merger which has had noF > > activitity for a couple of months.  Your conspiracy theory is just8 > > completely at odds with what's actually on the site. >SF > My, either you're a complete idiot or yourself under the sway of HP:  . Do you really have to talk to people that way?  F If I didn't know better I would think you were saying I was under HP's1 "sway."  I'm under the sway of OpenVMS and Tru64.O  I > 1.  The new general forum is not the original OpenVMS forum:  it's new,D andO > currently empty.   I just made it this morning.  L > 2.  Contrary to your assertion that the HP/Compaq merger forum is the onlyI > one not linked from the home page, the original OpenVMS forum (with alla thatJ > embarrassing criticism of VMS's owner) *still* isn't accessible from the8 > home page (nor is the forum list on which it appears).  D Thats the Technical forum, because it was a mix I wanted to keep the technical stuff in tact.  F > 3.  The original OpenVMS forum, however, still enjoys activity (most recentA > post 8/27/02), so lack of activity doesn't explain its absence.t >sJ > 4.  The original Tru64 forum remains similarly absent from the Tru64.org > home page.  L I'm busy today with a few errands for the PTA at my son's elementery school.  I'll add it when I get a chance.  J > Next time, at least *try* to make *something* in your response accurate.  1 I liked his response.  Thanks for that Craig.  :)u  H Bill, my email is kfarmer@openvms.org.  As I have offered before, if youJ want to assist promoting "The Gold Standard" by writing something positiveI about OpenVMS, I would love to post it.  I know without a doubt you couldx" produce some really good material.  K To the rest of this newsgroup...I could use your help portraying OpenVMS inoF a positive light.  Anything you could send that would be of use to theI community or potential "new" managers would be appreciated.  Try to visiti6 the site at least once a day and support our sponsors.     --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:20:53 GMT , From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>. Subject: Re: tru64.org and openvms.org changes> Message-ID: <pAPb9.37986$iX4.1449632@twister.southeast.rr.com>  ! No problem, sniff, group hug.  :)    --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPC.org       5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagew= news:NfOb9.309134$2p2.12805960@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...r >t9 > "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> wrote in messagec: > news:BwNb9.37940$iX4.1435286@twister.southeast.rr.com...I > > Oh, you weren't supposed to notice that.  I had dinner with Carly andoB > > Michael the other day and they asked me to remove it.  Sheesh! > >tK > > You're thinking too much Bill.  The changes are an effort on my part tou > drawI > > more traffic and participation in the forums.  I'm not trying to hidet
 > > anything.n >Y > I apologize to you as well.  >s > ...  >e9 > > As I write this I see you posted a few more comments.g >nD > But apparently didn't read the most recent ones, though since newsF > propagates unpredictably you may not have received them at the time. >a >   I only have one I > > question for you.  Have you taken your medicine today?  You know whatu theo+ > > doctor said about your mood swings.  :)  >aK > My mood, unfortunately, has been pretty even for the past 14 months:  mad  atJ > Compaq and its toadies all the time.  While I make absolutely no apology for L > that, I do regret that once in a while that mood seeps over into unrelated > discussions. >nF > This was not, however, an unrelated discussion.  And the appearance,G > admittedly based on inadequate analysis, was not good.  So while I do J > without reservation apologize for having been mistaken in this instance,E > don't mistake that for any more general apology:  as with most suchCJ > discussions (and unlike a great many here) I make a real effort to check myJ > assertions, and to recheck them when they're questioned - which is why IK > retracted my earlier comments after looking into the matter for the third  > time.i >aI > There are aspects of the post-6/25/01 situation that resemble the Civild War.G > "It's about slavery!"  "No!  It's about states' rights!" translate toi "It'shL > about integrity!"  "No!  It's about a company's right to pursue its visionL > [sic]!"  The bottom line is that it pits former friends against each otherH > and gets ugly, and that it's not going to go away until either cHumPaqH > radically changes its attitude or sufficient damage has been inflicted thatK > no one is going to want to repeat the experience (or the actions that led0 up > to it) any time soon.m >i > - bill >o >e >L   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:46:11 +0000 (UTC)-, From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)% Subject: Re: VMS performance software.. Message-ID: <akoehj$lkj$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Hansford, Paul (ELS)" <P.Hansford@elsevier.co.uk> writes in article <2EA918FE7CC6FB4BA0510D671ADB2AB40D7A29@elsoxfs02604> dated Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:00:40 +0100:eJ >Hi, I wonder if anyone could make any recommendations for VMS performance >monitoring/tuning software,H >I used to Polycentre Datacollector and Performance advisor and CapacityJ >planner, but I don't think this exists or at least not supported on Alpha
 >platform.  K I used it on the alpha for a couple of years.  Great product!  But then DECrE sold Polycenter to CA, who bundled *all* of the software together andaF re-sold it at approximately the list price for your hardware.  The newH software doesn't honor the old Polycenter licenses, and the old softwareH won't run on anything higher than VMS 6.1, I think.  So it's effectively dead.   M >What about Compaq Performance Analysis Web Zone (PAWZ)  has anyone used it ?a >Is it what I need?1  < I'd also be interested in reviews of replacement products.    + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgl> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:11:16 -0500N& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>% Subject: Re: VMS performance softwarey8 Message-ID: <0mnvmuk7eac10klvn6588fj3637d7olgir@4ax.com>  E Try our ECP product.  It doesn't have as many graphs available as thes@ Polycenter Performance product did, but it is pretty good still.  F Note, too, that you can go to perfcap.com to get the 3rd party versionF of this product.  I believe that they are continuing with the CapacityA Planner part of the product, which Cpq/HP is not (as far as I can. tell).  C Also, there's BMC Perform and Predict.  The main issue here is thatsD they do not have a native data collector for OpenVMS.  It's possibleC that they may modify their product to take ECP data as input... asko them.   C And, of course, the other Polycenter Performance tools are owned by * CA, as PerformIT and AdviseIT (I believe).  B Those are the major ones I've had to care about these past several years.      : On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:00:40 +0100, "Hansford, Paul (ELS)"" <P.Hansford@elsevier.co.uk> wrote:  J >Hi, I wonder if anyone could make any recommendations for VMS performance >monitoring/tuning softwareeH >I used to Polycentre Datacollector and Performance advisor and CapacityJ >planner, but I don't think this exists or at least not supported on Alpha
 >platform.M >What about Compaq Performance Analysis Web Zone (PAWZ)  has anyone used it ?R >Is it what I need?dF >If anyone could suggest a product they have used I would be extremely	 >gratefulb >r >Regards >  >Paul Hansford   >VMS System Manager        a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.479 ************************