1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 02 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 666       Contents:& Are VMS operations really this bad???!* Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???!* Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???!* Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???!, Re: Can XFC be used on 2 of 3 cluster nodes?3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper H Does anybody know how to convert D_FLOAT's to G_FLOAT's mathematically ?P Re: Does anybody know how to convert D_FLOAT's to G_FLOAT's mathematically ? mat RE: Endianity of Itanium Re: Future of RMS Semantics tag  Re: Future of RMS Semantics tag " Re: HELP: DCL and quotation marks!8 How does VMS behave with 128 serial ports on Digiboards?3 Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability 3 Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability 3 Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability 3 Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability ) Memo:  Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10 * Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility& OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility* Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility* Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Pathworks and IPC$" Re: Province code change in Canada& Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?& RE: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ? Re: Recursive Deletion RE: Recursive Deletion Re: Recursive Deletion Re: Recursive Deletion Re: Recursive Deletion Re: SIMMs in DECpc 450ST	 SMTP Help  Re: SRM for multiboot  Re: TIFF processing on VMS?  Re: TIFF processing on VMS?  Re: TIFF processing on VMS?  Re: TIFF processing on VMS?  Re: TIFF processing on VMS?  Re: TIFF processing on VMS? " RE: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10" Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10" RE: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10( Re: [OT] FORTRAN-based accounting system  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:43:55 -0800 " From: daveparboo@hotmail.com (DXP)/ Subject: Are VMS operations really this bad???! = Message-ID: <819f1cc4.0212020643.4d074c75@posting.google.com>   H http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=1443168C05BD3778   Cheers     Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:53:47 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 3 Subject: Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???! ; Message-ID: <01KPK8TJPMKEA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   J > http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=1443168C05BD3778  & Job 16227480 not found, maybe expired.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 15:21:43 GMT , From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)3 Subject: Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???! 5 Message-ID: <asftq6$q40tf$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   = In article <819f1cc4.0212020643.4d074c75@posting.google.com>, % 	daveparboo@hotmail.com (DXP) writes: J > http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=1443168C05BD3778  & Job 16227480 not found, maybe expired.  ! So, what was it supposed to say??    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 09:51:19 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 3 Subject: Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???! 3 Message-ID: <+sJ4zgCJE1vx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <01KPK8TJPMKEA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: K >> http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=1443168C05BD3778  > ( > Job 16227480 not found, maybe expired.  E Another good reason not to waste everybody's time by posting raw URLs  without a summary.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:14:24 -0500 , From: Mark Jilson <jilly@clarityconnect.com>5 Subject: Re: Can XFC be used on 2 of 3 cluster nodes? 8 Message-ID: <BwMG9.61949$0n4.3580673@newsfeed.slurp.net>  C XFC will work fine with a node using VIOC but I can't give you any  H guarentees on it with the VAX V6.2 VIOC code.  If VCC_FLAGS = 0 on that F node then I believe that no caching will happen at all in the cluster.     Carl Karcher wrote:   8 > This isn't clear to me from reading the release notes: > I > Can XFC be used on two Alpha nodes (both at VMS 7.3-1 with VCC_FLAGS=2) C > in a three node cluster if the 3rd node doesn't mount any cluster I > shared disks (e.g. it's only a voting "quorum" node and running VAX/VMS > > 6.2 - I know, that's not supported but it's only temporary)? > J > Or, must ALL nodes in the cluster be have XFC enabled in order for it to > be used on ANY node? > 	 > Thanks.  >  > --I > -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 2 > --                      karcher@waisman.wisc.edu   --  C Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY H       - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fanH       - Mark.Jilson@hp.com                            - since 1975 or soH       - http://www.jilly.baka.com           - http://www.brettbodine.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:41:31 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper) Message-ID: <3DEB38DB.9C07E804@127.0.0.1>    David Webb wrote:  >  (Excellent points snipped) .... > M > Increasing the characterset from which VMS passwords can be chosen probably J > wouldn't really increase VMS security when these mechanisms are properlyI > deployed. However it would increase usability when users (as they will) M > use the same password on multiple systems - this of course reduces security % > to that of the least secure system.   @ This gets into the realms of self defeating security. If you didE increase the allowable range of characters, make them case sensitive, F etc., you stand a far higher risk of defeating the human capability toD commit usefully to memory a password, where it becomes necessary forF systems not protected with cryptography to store the password. Post-it4 notes under desks are one method that I've observed.  D Another I detected from observed system activity is account sharing.E Despite having own accounts, people shared, because they could not be H bothered going to helpdesk, getting their forgotten password reset afterG identity verification, then stand a large chance of forgetting it again F to repeat the whole process. There were other things I saw that didn't@ specifically involve weak passwords, but nonetheless provided an  opportunity for improper access.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:33:48 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper+ Message-ID: <asfges$fhd$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   T In article <3DEB38DB.9C07E804@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: >David Webb wrote: >>   >(Excellent points snipped)  >..... >>  N >> Increasing the characterset from which VMS passwords can be chosen probablyK >> wouldn't really increase VMS security when these mechanisms are properly J >> deployed. However it would increase usability when users (as they will)N >> use the same password on multiple systems - this of course reduces security& >> to that of the least secure system. > A >This gets into the realms of self defeating security. If you did F >increase the allowable range of characters, make them case sensitive,G >etc., you stand a far higher risk of defeating the human capability to E >commit usefully to memory a password, where it becomes necessary for G >systems not protected with cryptography to store the password. Post-it 5 >notes under desks are one method that I've observed.  > O The problem is that if the users are also using a Unix system then (if allowed) C they will set the password to be the same as for their VMS account. J The restricted set of characters allowed for VMS passwords then make theirJ Unix passwords too weak. A hacker who then cracks their unix password then gets their VMS password.  H Most sites will therefore set up a password policy on their unix systemsK - eg  every password must contain an uppercase letter, a lowercase letter a O number and a punctuation character. Such a policy will also be applied to their G windows systems. VMS will then appear to be out of step and may even be @ portrayed as being insecure since "it's passwords are too weak".   Note. N Whether having such a password policy in place is actually any good or whetherJ as you note it just results in people writing down passwords is irreleventL since all the security manuals say that such a policy is needed for the Unix systems they are using.     E >Another I detected from observed system activity is account sharing. F >Despite having own accounts, people shared, because they could not beI >bothered going to helpdesk, getting their forgotten password reset after H >identity verification, then stand a large chance of forgetting it againG >to repeat the whole process. There were other things I saw that didn't A >specifically involve weak passwords, but nonetheless provided an ! >opportunity for improper access.  >   P This is a fact of life. It doesn't matter how often you tell them not to or how P simple their passwords are they will still share accounts, write down passwords N etc if doing so makes their life just a little bit easier and they don't thinkK someone will find out and punish them. This is a management not a technical  issue.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:18:07 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> < Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the RipperT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660BB7@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  ' Re: passwords between different OS's ..   H Yep, has always been a problem i.e.. no matter what you do, human natureF will dictate that users will try and keep their passwords the same. InH addition, when a user leaves how do you ensure all of their accounts areE disabled on all systems? How do you know when the last time that user E logged into each of the systems they are authorized for without going H around to every system and using OS specific means to look at accounting records?  H Now, you can try to enforce different passwords, but this is like try to: stop the oldest profession in the world (red light stuff).  E Another approach that I know many large shops are looking at involves H LDAP based security using a distributed directory. Hence, companies haveG the capability to have a distributed directory (each system has sub-set G of that directory that is specific to them local to their system) while . at the same time centralizing security policy.  ? In this way, disabling a user at one location has the effect of F disabling access on all systems on all platforms. Auditing can be done from central location.    Does it take planning ? You bet.  @ Can it be expensive? You bet - especially if the directory is an additional cost per user.   F What about the concern for additional security - given resent security; break-ins, hacker attacks and virus's for many platforms???   : Hey, use a very secure OS as the basis for that directory.  G Oh, by the way, the enterprise directory is included as part of OpenVMS  with no additional cost.=20   
 Reference:< http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/eDir/edir_home.html   :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)        -----Original Message-----5 From: David Webb [mailto:david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk]=20  Sent: December 2, 2002 6:34 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper    3 In article <3DEB38DB.9C07E804@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews   <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: >David Webb wrote: >>=20  >(Excellent points snipped)  >..... >>=20 H >> Increasing the characterset from which VMS passwords can be chosen=20J >> probably wouldn't really increase VMS security when these mechanisms=20H >> are properly deployed. However it would increase usability when users  H >> (as they will) use the same password on multiple systems - this of=20> >> course reduces security to that of the least secure system. > D >This gets into the realms of self defeating security. If you did=20I >increase the allowable range of characters, make them case sensitive,=20 J >etc., you stand a far higher risk of defeating the human capability to=20H >commit usefully to memory a password, where it becomes necessary for=20J >systems not protected with cryptography to store the password. Post-it=205 >notes under desks are one method that I've observed.  > F The problem is that if the users are also using a Unix system then (ifC allowed) they will set the password to be the same as for their VMS H account. The restricted set of characters allowed for VMS passwords thenG make their Unix passwords too weak. A hacker who then cracks their unix & password then gets their VMS password.  H Most sites will therefore set up a password policy on their unix systemsB - eg  every password must contain an uppercase letter, a lowercaseG letter a number and a punctuation character. Such a policy will also be H applied to their windows systems. VMS will then appear to be out of stepE and may even be portrayed as being insecure since "it's passwords are 
 too weak".   Note.=20F Whether having such a password policy in place is actually any good orG whether as you note it just results in people writing down passwords is C irrelevent since all the security manuals say that such a policy is + needed for the Unix systems they are using.     H >Another I detected from observed system activity is account sharing.=20I >Despite having own accounts, people shared, because they could not be=20 F >bothered going to helpdesk, getting their forgotten password reset=20H >after identity verification, then stand a large chance of forgetting it  I >again to repeat the whole process. There were other things I saw that=20 H >didn't specifically involve weak passwords, but nonetheless provided an  ! >opportunity for improper access.  >   H This is a fact of life. It doesn't matter how often you tell them not to	 or how=20 E simple their passwords are they will still share accounts, write down  passwords=20H etc if doing so makes their life just a little bit easier and they don'tG think someone will find out and punish them. This is a management not a  technical issue.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:20:21 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <nHfiNHEvQY6m@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <IDBG9.22177$kO5.3965779@news1.news.adelphia.net>, "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes:  > Robert Deininger wrote:  > > >> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >>  F >>> 4. The vulnerability to such a tool is when people have access to G >>> unencrypted backup tapes.  At some shops that is easier to achieve  1 >>> than privileged access to the running system.  >>   >> Good point. > J > There are legitimate uses for such tools for security audits.  They are I > used to discover if users are using weak passwords such as setting the  3 > system password to "XYZZY" or other obvious ones.  > C > IIRC: There is at least one third party security audit tool that   > performs this type of check.  : The LJK/Security approach is to tell the privileged person9 how many guesses it took, but not tell them the password.   I > If I have physical privileged access to a system, or the actual backup  ? > tapes, I do not need the SYSUAF passwords to access the data.   G But for some scenarios reading the data is less of a vulnerability than H modifying it.  In that case, lower physical security on the backup tapesG than the running system is still not appropriate, for reasons discussed  in this thread.    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:23:10 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) < Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <L9RLacG+Zufd@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660BB7@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:  I > Oh, by the way, the enterprise directory is included as part of OpenVMS  > with no additional cost.=20   3 Only on Alpha.  You still have to pay extra on VAX.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:30:31 +0100 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper+ Message-ID: <3DEB6E87.4BB917C1@mediasec.de>   I > Oh, by the way, the enterprise directory is included as part of OpenVMS  > with no additional cost.  F And Microsoft has apparently decided to re-write, from scratch, ActiveG Directory (its take on LDAP) because their current design has unfixable  security holes...    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 09:05:05 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <5SXzjWoM055h@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3DE667B9.F8374923@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Jean-loup Gailly wrote: K >> By using John, a system administrator can effectively eliminate all weak O >> passwords. I'm surprised that many VMS fans cannot understand the usefulness H >> of such a tool. (I wrote the John VMS patch for a security audit of a >> large company.) >  > O > Suppose you do find that your boss has a weak password. What do you do then ? P > Do you go and tell him that you extracted his password and decided that it wasP > weak ? Wouldn't that jeoperdize the integrity of the system manager who is not/ > supposed to have access to user's passwords ?  > N > He may have access to his own sysuaf.dat on that small departmental VAX, butM > getting his boss's password on the vax would probably also get his password P > for the IBM mainframe and email servers etc etc etc. Revealing that you can in\ > fact extract passowrds would jeoperdize the security of other systems in the organisation.  C Revealing that you can extract passwords would reveal the fact that < the security of those other systems was already in jeopardy.  I Yes, it's no fun to be the bearer of bad news.  But don't delude yourself 2 that you are improving security by staying silent.  M > One would have to be very diplomatic in trying to educate the person on the Q > use of stronger passowrds without giving any hints that you saw their password.   G If you know the boss's password, keep quiet about it and are found out, G that could look bad.  Tell him.  Tell him flat out and without evasion. / Dancing around the truth won't make it go away.   A And try to exercise due care with your list of cracked passwords.    	John Briggs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:43:31 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper0 Message-ID: <01C299DF.0D1F5870@sulfer.icius.com>  H <Nitpick mode> There are no 2ghz P3's, although they would be noticeablyA faster than the 2ghz P4's that Intel does produce.</nitpick mode>   F It's not the speed of the machines generating the test passwords, it'sF how fast the target machine will let them try and how many failures itA allows before locking off the account. If they've compromised the ? machine enough to copy the sysuaf, they don't need to crack the  password. They're in already.   F The only way I know of to start users caring about the guessability ofG their passwords is to inconvenience them if they don't pick a good one. G When they get their account, make it clear that any guessable passwords H will be arbitrarily changed, and they'll have to come to you to find outB what it changed to. It's tough on you to start with, but they will learn.   Shane    -----Original Message-----0 From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu]' Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:24 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper    / In article <3DE667B9.F8374923@vl.videotron.ca>, 3 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  > Jean-loup Gailly wrote: K >> By using John, a system administrator can effectively eliminate all weak D >> passwords. I'm surprised that many VMS fans cannot understand the
 usefulnessH >> of such a tool. (I wrote the John VMS patch for a security audit of a >> large company.) >  > M > Suppose you do find that your boss has a weak password. What do you do then  ? L > Do you go and tell him that you extracted his password and decided that it was L > weak ? Wouldn't that jeoperdize the integrity of the system manager who is not / > supposed to have access to user's passwords ?  > N > He may have access to his own sysuaf.dat on that small departmental VAX, butM > getting his boss's password on the vax would probably also get his password M > for the IBM mainframe and email servers etc etc etc. Revealing that you can  inN > fact extract passowrds would jeoperdize the security of other systems in the
 organisation.  > M > One would have to be very diplomatic in trying to educate the person on the G > use of stronger passowrds without giving any hints that you saw their 	 password.   E I used to regularly run password cracking programs against the master D password files in the department usually then informing the the userD that their password was easily determinable (often telling them whatC it was, including their little tricks like "h311o" for "hello").  I D stopped doing it when common Unix eliminated the ability of the noneE priveledged user to actually read the encrypted passwords and because F I never found a user who cared.  They usually just changed their pass-1 word to something else just as easily determined.   E As to the idea that the number of possible combinations prevents this E kind of attack, while that was true when I first ran "crack" (it took H a week and broke only one or two passwords) now days, I can do the wholeG password file overnight and frequently break all the passwords that are H not pure random strings of characters (which is what I issue for initialD passwords.)  Remember also, on most systems there really is only oneG password you need to break to compromise the system.  Now imagine a lab C full of 2GHZ P3's spending the 4 day Thanksgiving weekend running a H distributed password cracking program against the SYSTEM password.  Even+ A totally random string is not a guarantee.   
 All the best.    bill   --  C Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three  wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:48:48 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper) Message-ID: <3DEB8EF0.7613F6E7@127.0.0.1>    David Webb wrote:  >  ... @ I fully agree with your points, I note with interest that on the> Roadmaps, OpenVMS is slated for case sensitivity in passwords.  H Just how far do we push the human in authorizing themselves to a system,B where increasing use of online systems demand a wider audience andH participation of non computer literate users, some of those who struggle with a 4 digit pin.   > It drags the discussion around to one of the words I mentionedH "complacency", this is the enemy of security, the policies can encourage7 the bad practices leading to breaches without cracking.    Q > This is a fact of life. It doesn't matter how often you tell them not to or how Q > simple their passwords are they will still share accounts, write down passwords P > etc if doing so makes their life just a little bit easier and they don't thinkM > someone will find out and punish them. This is a management not a technical  > issue.  F Precisely, and the more draconian the policy, the more often this willF occur in my view. You could set a management policy that would lead toC the dismissal of much of the workforce, but the key I believe is in H compromise, and perhaps the adoption of other methods of authentication.  H I believe we're the converted, I'm interested in others' points of view.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:07:14 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper+ Message-ID: <asg402$ljd$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   s In article <3DEB6E87.4BB917C1@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes: J >> Oh, by the way, the enterprise directory is included as part of OpenVMS >> with no additional cost.  > G >And Microsoft has apparently decided to re-write, from scratch, Active H >Directory (its take on LDAP) because their current design has unfixable >security holes... >  >	Jan    References please.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 17:21:22 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper5 Message-ID: <asg4qi$qugc2$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   0 In article <01C299DF.0D1F5870@sulfer.icius.com>,' 	Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: J > <Nitpick mode> There are no 2ghz P3's, although they would be noticeablyC > faster than the 2ghz P4's that Intel does produce.</nitpick mode>   D Sorry, I never claimed to keep up with this weeks Intel abomination.% What are they up to now?? P5? P6? P7?    > H > It's not the speed of the machines generating the test passwords, it'sH > how fast the target machine will let them try and how many failures itC > allows before locking off the account. If they've compromised the A > machine enough to copy the sysuaf, they don't need to crack the  > password. They're in already.   > The programs being discussed here do not attempt to login they= work to determine the string that encrypts to a match for the D encrypted string from the password file (whatever it may be called).B Access to unencrypted backups was posted here as a possible methodE one could get the SYSAUF without having priveledged access.  How many D places degauss tapes before throwing them in the dumpster?? (OutsideF of the government, anyway.)  I have been given old backups by the dataA center here because they changed tape format and I still used the  old style.  I know they didn't.    > H > The only way I know of to start users caring about the guessability ofI > their passwords is to inconvenience them if they don't pick a good one.   E Frequently, for political reasons, that is not an option.  Most of us G are peons and not decision makers.  Inconveniencing my boss or his boss ' could shorten my career rather quickly.   I > When they get their account, make it clear that any guessable passwords J > will be arbitrarily changed, and they'll have to come to you to find outD > what it changed to. It's tough on you to start with, but they will > learn.  H Yeah, looking for a new job in todays environment could be very tough onJ you.  And they won't learn.  I even have a policy that new passwords (someK users tend to forget their's quite frequently) must be picked up in person. J A very reasonable policy in my mind.  (Who is that really on the other endI of that email??)  I have, in the past, been forced to violate that policy  by those above me.   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:15:53 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper0 Message-ID: <01C299E3.73877BC0@sulfer.icius.com>  H I believe Jean-Loup's program is an interesting and possibly useful one,D but it doesn't help against the main techniques I know for capturing9 passwords. (Yes, I was on the other side once, long ago.)   C The worst one I know is where the system administrator mandates and C enforces ridiculously complex and hard to remember passwords. Sure, F "hX0r13V7aI0" would be hard to crack, but it's so hard to remember theH user will write it on a post-it and stick it somewhere convenient. OftenE to the cube wall, in plain sight. We have one customer whose sysadmin B issues passwords like this because he believes they're secure, andG doesn't let the users change them. They're also forbidden to write them H down, but they can't remember them so they have to. I could grab as manyF username/password combos as I liked just by wandering around the desksG in the morning. That kind of security is false because it fails to take  into account the human factor.  H Another good way to guess a password is by knowing the person who pickedF it. I used to have a sysadmin who was known to be a big Status Quo fan@ (the rock band). I got his password on the third attempt just byH throwing their song titles at it. I had also managed to get a few of theE letters by watching his fingers while he was logging in, which helped  narrow the field.   H Then there's the old "fake login screen" trick, which I once used on theE teacher of a Digital security course in England. Worked like a charm, G sent her a reply from her own account in mid-lecture while her terminal = was being echoed to the projection screen. Giggles all round.   F And finally, the old packet sniffer approach, although the last time IF used it was in the form of an RS232 Y-splitter and a VT100. If you canE see what goes over the wire, you're in. Hardly anyone I know uses SSL  within their LAN.   E Those are obvious, I won't get into the sneakier stuff. Don't want to  give anyone ideas.   Shane    -----Original Message-----A From: Jean-Fran=E7ois PI=C9RONNE [mailto:jf.pieronne@laposte.net] ( Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 12:38 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper     Salut Jean-Loup,  G First I would like not to argument pro/cons security based on password,  only about password guessable.   G First, you agree that on a normally configure VMS system you can't read  the UAF  file.   D Very bad passwords is much less a problem on VMS than on many others systems, because there is other security ! which prevent you to do many try: F for example if you have a direct access, then you terminal will become suspect,G then intruder,then if I have enablethis feature the account will become  disuser,# and not including dome audit alarm. H Why did you think that credit card have only a four digits code, because after   three attempts the game is over.F So what is the chance of a, for example, 6 letters passwords, to be be found if you have only five attempt?sH On some other systems, you can made as many attempt as you want, this is fundamental different.  D I don't say it is impossible, just that the probability is very very small.  E The thread http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_4612.html is mucht
 more aboutF general password security versus other methods (Kerberos, smart cards, ands? biometric hardware, etc...) and not about some problem into the  implementation# of the password mechanism into VMS.   D I have only seen in movies people finding password after 3 attempts.  F Any way, a good password is better than a bad, but a too good password isC sometime written on some paper because people can't remember it :-)n  D On most of VMS system I have seen, there are much important security problem.   Jean-Fran=E7oist   >=20F > It seems that many people have misunderstood my intent. It should beG > obvious that if a bad guy has access to your sysuaf.dat you're in bigw/ > trouble already. I have added a sentence on =p http://gailly.net/security/ : F > "This tool is designed for system administrators to detect users who= > too often select very bad passwords, too easily guessable".n >=20? > I advise system administrators who do not believe this to try H > John at least once. You will be amazed to see how bad most passwords = are,F > and how quickly you can find most of them. Of course, make sure thatE > the working directory of John and all files within it are correctlyo* > protected against read access by others. >=20 > Nic Clews writes:  >=20I > > Secondly, a password list you hit a single user account with in the =r mostD > > part cannot exist in those that are in the password dictionary = (where > > implemented!)c >=20F > I had trouble parsing your sentence. John does much more than tryingF > all words from a dictionary. It has elaborate rules to generate manyF > variations of dictionary words, and a sophisticated incremental modeE > to try non-dictionary words in optimum order. This is what makes ite" > the best password cracking tool. >=20G > > and for those of us that use the password policy module forcing the @ > > presence of non alphabetic characters and therefore _really_H > > 'unreal' words, you'd have to slow that 150,000 guesses per second = down >=20G > My patch is designed for the builtin OpenVMS password algorithms, notFA > for external modules. HP (Hoff Hoffman) indeed recommends usings8 > algorithms other than their own, in this thread and in4 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_4612.html >=20E > > I don't really believe that anyone has the storage or the time totG > > pregenerate such a colossal list, moving each character through all-B > > possible combinations starting at some arbitrary length, and =	 extendingjD > > to the maximum allowable or expected (and risking missing longerF > > ones). The sheer time to perform the IO alone to this list makes a > > mockery of the technique.6 >=20D > There is no point in generating a colossal list on disk. The VMS = passwordF > algorithms correctly take into account a salt and the user name to = preventcH > such attacks. But at 150,000 guesses per second it is very easy to tryH > *all* legal VMS passwords of 7 characters or less, working in memory = only.bE > You can also easily try all simple variations of a small dictionaryaE > (1 million words). John is good at generating the variations that =1 people  > actually use most of the time. >=20G > By using John, a system administrator can effectively eliminate all =  weakE > passwords. I'm surprised that many VMS fans cannot understand the =.
 usefulnessG > of such a tool. (I wrote the John VMS patch for a security audit of ai > large company.)e >=20 > Jean-loup Gailly > http://gailly.net/security/n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:30:56 -0800' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>r< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper8 Message-ID: <20021202093056.7fbc11f3.mathog@caltech.edu>  ( On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:09:23 +0000 (UTC)7 jloup@gailly.OmitThisWord.net (Jean-loup Gailly) wrote:-  ? > I advise system administrators who do not believe this to tryeK > John at least once. You will be amazed to see how bad most passwords are,   H Which is why I prefer assigning users randomly generated passwords whichM they cannot change.  The alphabet includes about 90 characters (Unix, so bothv3 upper and lower can be used) which gives a passwordeE space of about 90^8  I ran John on my passwd file once for kicks on a4M DS10 (466Mhz) and it didn't crack a single password in 24 hours.  If I didn'tm1 have to support Solaris I'd use longer passwords.-  % The upside - very difficult to crack. G The downside - these are so hard to remember that all users write theiru   passwords down.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 10:41:18 -0600w From: briggs@encompasserve.org< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <KTkhTKq60yK6@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  W In article <01C299DF.0D1F5870@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:tJ > <Nitpick mode> There are no 2ghz P3's, although they would be noticeablyC > faster than the 2ghz P4's that Intel does produce.</nitpick mode>i > H > It's not the speed of the machines generating the test passwords, it'sH > how fast the target machine will let them try and how many failures itC > allows before locking off the account. If they've compromised the A > machine enough to copy the sysuaf, they don't need to crack thei > password. They're in already.   B Not neccessarily.  The example of reading SYSUAF from backup tapesB has been given.  And we have the example of a system manager using@ a crack tool to identify accounts with weak passwords.  Or maybe< when the system manager moved SYSUAF off the system disk, he@ was careless with file permissions.  Or maybe he installed a web; server with SYSPRV, thus providing a conduit for privileged D read-only access.  Or maybe he recycled a volume formerly containing@ a copy of SYSUAF and the attacker has succeeded in a little disk? scavenging.  There are any number of ways that a copy of SYSUAF D could be obtained without an attacker having full system privileges.  8 An offline password cracker is not completely worthless.  = An online password cracker is, as you point out, likely to ber of limited value.e   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:11:39 GMTl8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <vnNG9.47$BJ4.1575029@news.cpqcorp.net>l  1 In article <01C299DF.0D1F5870@sulfer.icius.com>,  & Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: ..G >The only way I know of to start users caring about the guessability of H >their passwords is to inconvenience them if they don't pick a good one. ..  M I am of the opinion -- based on personal experience, although not necessarilyeD accepted by my employer -- that even users who care very much about D secute passwords tend to pick very poor passwords from time to time.H My preferred solution is to enforce generated passwords.  Yes, this has E drawbacks too, but I find they are better than user chosen passwords.o   --  I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USAiH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:33:43 GMTe8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper3 Message-ID: <bING9.48$BJ4.1575029@news.cpqcorp.net>@  1 In article <01C299E3.73877BC0@sulfer.icius.com>, 2& Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:   '''iD >The worst one I know is where the system administrator mandates andB >enforces ridiculously complex and hard to remember passwords. ...E >... [users are ]forbidden to write [passwords] down, but they can't e3 remember them so they have to. I could grab as many G >username/password combos as I liked just by wandering around the desks  >in the morning. ...  & Writing down passwords is one thing.  0 Letting them lie around openly is quite another.> And then there is failure to enforce a security policy that is obviously not being followed.m   -- mI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:52:06 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper. Message-ID: <3DEBABD6.29C78BE0@mindspring.com>   Charlie Hammond wrote:  2 > In article <01C299E3.73877BC0@sulfer.icius.com>,( > Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: >s > '''hF > >The worst one I know is where the system administrator mandates andD > >enforces ridiculously complex and hard to remember passwords. ...F > >... [users are ]forbidden to write [passwords] down, but they can't5 > remember them so they have to. I could grab as manydI > >username/password combos as I liked just by wandering around the desksa > >in the morning. ... > & > Writing down passwords is one thing.2 > Letting them lie around openly is quite another.@ > And then there is failure to enforce a security policy that is > obviously not being followed.e  . Prediction: Passwords are a thing of the past;2 it'll all be biometrics soon anyway. Fingerprints,3 iris scans, voiceprints, signature, finger lengths,a0 I don't know which will win, but it will be some sort of biometrics.e  9 And if it isn't biometrics soon, then as a bridge it willt7 be a knowledge+token sort of security as as exemplifiedi6 by the RSA Security SecureID gadget. This is practical/ today and is being used by more and more folks.r  ? http://www.rsasecurity.com/products/securid/hardware_token.htmlu   Atlant   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:54:15 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper0 Message-ID: <01C299F1.48473730@sulfer.icius.com>  C Agreed, they shouldn't be doing it, and granted few of them put thetC paper in plain view. My point is that they are forced to record theoG passwords since they are too difficult to remember. A fair chunk of theiG blame lies with the policy itself for not taking into account the human2E element. If they just made the passwords pronouncable, they'd cut theRG problem down considerably as more people would be capable of memorizingA them.A   Shane7   -----Original Message-----& From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net) [mailto:hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net]a( Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:34 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper    1 In article <01C299E3.73877BC0@sulfer.icius.com>, o& Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:   '''nD >The worst one I know is where the system administrator mandates andB >enforces ridiculously complex and hard to remember passwords. ...E >... [users are ]forbidden to write [passwords] down, but they can't t3 remember them so they have to. I could grab as manyoG >username/password combos as I liked just by wandering around the desksp >in the morning. ...  & Writing down passwords is one thing.  0 Letting them lie around openly is quite another.> And then there is failure to enforce a security policy that is obviously not being followed.    --  E       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FLe USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)>       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.s   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 04:56:31 -0800n( From: robert_kersey@bat.com (Rob Kersey)Q Subject: Does anybody know how to convert D_FLOAT's to G_FLOAT's mathematically ?e= Message-ID: <f936a854.0212020456.1b61ada0@posting.google.com>-  C I know there is the MTH$ function MTH$CVT_D_G, but we are trying tor& convert to numbers in Microsoft Excel.  E It's a long story but we have an application that writes values to anpF Oracle Rdb database as D_FLOAT values.  The application that reads the@ values out then converts them to G_FLOAT's for display purposes.  C We want to ODBC connect to the database and extract the values into&C Microsoft Excel, but of course we are extracting the D_FLOAT valuesm which are useless.  F Can anybody assist with how to convert these numbers mathematically ??F  I imagine there must be a formula that can be applied (which probably involves bit shifting ).  & Any help would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:23:39 GMT.& From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@attbi.com>Y Subject: Re: Does anybody know how to convert D_FLOAT's to G_FLOAT's mathematically ? mate) Message-ID: <3DEB6D12.B47BF9BD@attbi.com>o   Rob Kersey wrote:  > E > I know there is the MTH$ function MTH$CVT_D_G, but we are trying to ( > convert to numbers in Microsoft Excel. > G > It's a long story but we have an application that writes values to anmH > Oracle Rdb database as D_FLOAT values.  The application that reads theB > values out then converts them to G_FLOAT's for display purposes. > E > We want to ODBC connect to the database and extract the values into E > Microsoft Excel, but of course we are extracting the D_FLOAT valuesn > which are useless. > H > Can anybody assist with how to convert these numbers mathematically ??H >  I imagine there must be a formula that can be applied (which probably > involves bit shifting ). > ( > Any help would be greatly appreciated. >  > Thanks in advance.  B Given M$'s history of software quality, try Excel's RAND function. RAND <g> goes here.  -- h Cheers, Bobo   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:25:34 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>! Subject: RE: Endianity of Itaniums0 Message-ID: <01C299E4.C74DC0B0@sulfer.icius.com>    Bad luck, it's already laterium.   Shanei   -----Original Message-----/ From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]a' Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:09 PMr To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml! Subject: Re: Endianity of Itaniums      , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A17B43.90423D49@SendSpamHere.ORG...< > In article <3de7c20d$1@news.swissonline.ch>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de> writes:a	 > >Hello,l > >yL > >does the Itanium plattform have the same endianity as alpha (tru64, vms): > >little endian?n > >l > >best regardsu > >a > >Jakob > ' > Itanium has any endium you preferium.h  @ Great news!  My preference for its endium is soonium rather than	 laterium.t   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:09:17 GMTe? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)r( Subject: Re: Future of RMS Semantics tag/ Message-ID: <3deb1368.1987167@news.demon.co.uk>a  < On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:09:17 -0500, GcE <gce@gce.com> wrote:  Q >My understanding is that Dave Cathey figured out how this worked and used it foroG >a compressing file system. That is, files opened with it would use histM >decompressor and get decompressed on the fly. Obviously it could be used fortJ >encryption or some other things. It may have a limited number of types of> >things supported, so not be as exetensible as one might want.  @ Hmm.  Cool.  Yeah, you should be able to do something like that.   >aH >The question might be whether any documentation exists out in user-landJ >(as opposed to inside VMS engineering somewhere, or buried somewhere thatE >even VMS engineers would have trouble finding) for how to build codep* >that plugs into RMS semantic tag support.  C wrt user documention: aside from something that someone has reverse7B engineered, or by implication, from what one can work out from theE listings, I'd be surprised.  Something may have been written up afteri? I'd left RMS, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about it.l   fwiw,y Jim.     >o >Glenn Everharth >  >Jim Johnson wrote:rF >> Personally, I would doubt it.  RMS semantic tag support was done inH >> '86/'87, and was done just sufficiently well to provide DDIF support.G >> Even that was done over the objections of the direct line management H >> (I was pushed instead to provide direct text support for DDIF -- as aI >> special case).  As far as I know, little to nothing has been done witha >> it since its initial releasea >> tG >> Conceptually, there are a number of interesting things that could besF >> done, with the right sort of callers.  For instance, if executablesG >> were marked that way, "run foo.exe" would behave like now, but "type I >> foo.exe" could produce the moral equivalent of "ana/ima foo.exe".  ThesF >> basic concepts are pretty old hat, the place RMS sits in the systemG >> provides a few interesting possibilities.  Even then, it's somewhere G >> between, say, Office OLE documents and a proper object oriented filee
 >> system. >>  ; >> Of course, both are much more expressive than Unix... ;)  >> 0 >> Fwiw, >> Jim.  >>  ? >> Speaking on my own behalf, and not representing anyone else.p >>  / >> On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 04:51:47 -0500, JF Mezeia+ >> <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:c >> E >> EJ >>>At a time where Digital still had some vision, they implemented the RMSM >>>semantics tag for files. It allowed certain files (notable DDIF) which had N >>>that tag to be viewed or typed by a "plug-in" (DDIF$VIEWSHR for instance). P >>>This is why the decwidnows mail can display DDIF documents/images even though) >>>it really has no support for graphics.. >>>oP >>>Now, CDA was abandonned and is something nobody should bet their business on.Q >>>But what about the RMS Semantics Tag ? Any chance that the VMS engineers might N >>>make this a bit more opened so that folks could add their own "plugins" for >>>viewers ? >>>.M >>>By having something that is embedded into the file systems, it would alloweN >>>many applications to benefit from the existance of a "plugin", not just theW >>>web browsers. It woudl also provide a single, documented "API" to implement plugins.r >>>rN >>>Are there any plans to enhance this feature of RMS, or is the future reallyI >>>aiming for a dumbing down of the file system down to the UNIX "no fileD >>>structure" philosophy  ?c >> F >> i >> Jim Johnson >> Software Exploration, Ltd.e, >> (remove '.nospam' from the reply address) >m   Jim Johnsonc Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:58:32 -0500h0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: Future of RMS Semantics tag/ Message-ID: <3DEB2EB0.A4A23E6A@vl.videotron.ca>    Jim Johnson wrote:E > wrt user documention: aside from something that someone has reverse D > engineered, or by implication, from what one can work out from theG > listings, I'd be surprised.  Something may have been written up afteryA > I'd left RMS, but I don't recall ever seeing anything about it.b  = It is a shame that such a feature with potential would remaingJ undocumented/unused, yet the engineers have to maintain it "eternally" for upwards compatibility.  H Will IA64 support any DDIF handling ? Will DECwrite be ported 6 Will CDA? converters be ported ? I already know ALL-IN-1 won't be ported.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:24:16 GMTn8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)+ Subject: Re: HELP: DCL and quotation marks!i1 Message-ID: <4aJG9.7$yq4.486432@news.cpqcorp.net>   F >What I am trying to do is to create a DCL procedure using another DCLF >procedure. What I would like to be the final file would be like this: >  >$ testsym = "test"o0 >$ write sys$output "This is just a ''testsym'." >$ exitt  = You might get away with something as quick-and-dirty as this:n       $ copy sys$input sys$outputm	     $DECKw     $ testsym = "test"3     $ write sys$output "this is just a ''testsym'." 
     $ exit	     $ eod-  % (NOTE THE CLOSING ' _SHOULD BE USED!)c  ! Alternatively, construct symbols,t  .     $ d-quote[0,8]=34   ! for double quote (")>     $ s-quote[0,8]=39   ! for single quote (') (or Apostrophe)    and then do something like this:  L     $ write sys$output "$ write sys$output " + d_quote + "this is just a " -A         + s_quote + s_quote + "testsym" + s_quote + "." + d_quoted   --  I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USAiH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 08:01:08 -0800w! From: qsportclub@aol.com (BobCov)aA Subject: How does VMS behave with 128 serial ports on Digiboards?i= Message-ID: <47b5e52a.0212020801.6514109e@posting.google.com>k  D I would like to know if it is possible to get a delay of a second orC two on a 64 port PCI digiboard under VMS if many of the other portst are sending at the same time.t  E The service that experiences the delay runs at 4800 baud. Many of theoE other ports on the same board are at 19,200.  There are two boards inA the Alpha and 128 total ports.  B When there is nothing going on, the 4800 baud line works fine. ButB when there is a lot of other activity at certain times of the day,D there is a delay in getting data contributed from this port. I don'tD know if the delay is in how the Alpha gathers the data or if it is aB delay caused by the software on the Alpha slowing down under load.  A Any thoughts on whether there could be a delay related to how VMSrF handles digiboards?  Would it make a difference if I put the 4800 baud port on an 8 port digiboard?   -Bob b o b c o v at a o l com   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 00:42:48 -0800 " From: nipun_java@yahoo.com (nipun)< Subject: Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability= Message-ID: <a52b9f26.0212020042.36c497fb@posting.google.com>e  g nipun_java@yahoo.com (nipun) wrote in message news:<a52b9f26.0211290027.2745938f@posting.google.com>...d! > Any input would be appreciated.  >  > Domain : Embedded Systemse >  > The problem statement :a > C > Software Development Environment on VAX-VMS has to be ported to a G > suitable target development environment.The target processor is Intell > 80186 Processor. > E > The code is written in ASM186 & PLM186 assembly languages and Intelh, > cross compilers are used to generate code. > E > 1)Can anyone give any pointers with respect to availability of suchfG > cross compilers/assembler for ASM186 & PLM186 on other platforms likes/ > windows,linux,sun solaris?.If so, any links..  > H > 2)Does GCC support such cross compilation for 80186 processors and are8 > gcc ports available for different target environments? >  > Nipunv  @ Hey thanks guys for the responses, Actually I was lookint at theE target development environment to be a UNIX variant(Sun Solaris would D be a preferred choice as a solution as emphasised by the client) Any comments on that?o  F Also I have heard that PLM compilers are no longer supported by Intel.C So would it be better for us to look at using C as the language andsE then using C as a cross compiler and a tool for porting PLM to C.I ameD open to all suggestions. Thanks for all the help. I really need some
 right now.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:39:05 -0600y- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e< Subject: Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability3 Message-ID: <L6se4V2zPoWr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <a52b9f26.0212020042.36c497fb@posting.google.com>, nipun_java@yahoo.com (nipun) writes:  B > Hey thanks guys for the responses, Actually I was lookint at theG > target development environment to be a UNIX variant(Sun Solaris wouldiF > be a preferred choice as a solution as emphasised by the client) Any > comments on that?|  D I think you are making a mistake using the word "target" to describeH the development environment.  It is too confusing in the embedded arena,D although I do admit this thread has become confused already over far lesser issues.  H > Also I have heard that PLM compilers are no longer supported by Intel.E > So would it be better for us to look at using C as the language andtG > then using C as a cross compiler and a tool for porting PLM to C.I am. > open to all suggestions.  G Rewriting an application in a different language is always fraught withnE peril.  That is why there are still employment ads for people who can  program in JOVIAL.  A But if your customer is bound and determined to change languages,oJ I would suggest looking into the GreenHills family of Ada cross-compilers.2 Their web page says they can be hosted on Solaris.  A The Ada market is distinguished by customers with L-O-N-G project A lifetimes, so it is unlikely you will find compilers abandoned soiB readily as what happened to you with PLM.  (That does indicate any? resistance to companies renaming themselves, merging, selling ae" product line to one another, etc.)  C Even the SD-Ada cross-compiler jointly developed with DEC still has @ a vendor (not the original) still supporting it, because the Ada@ market is one where vendors look to ongoing maintenance revenue.  > The last Ada compiler I bought is from a company that has beenD through three different vendors, and they were not DEC/Compaq/HP :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:46:49 -0600i- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e< Subject: Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability3 Message-ID: <l8vap3qbeQF4@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  c In article <L6se4V2zPoWr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c  C > But if your customer is bound and determined to change languages,gL > I would suggest looking into the GreenHills family of Ada cross-compilers.4 > Their web page says they can be hosted on Solaris.  ; 	http://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers2.htmls  @ If they do not list your target processor, ask them for a quote.? I get the impression they are able to readily adapt, although Iv= have never bought anything from them.  The front end they useh> was written by a team led by S. Tucker Taft, who led the Ada95 design effort.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 10:00:29 -0800-* From: ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell)< Subject: Re: Information Needed -Cross Compiler Availability= Message-ID: <8debc3ff.0212021000.733c80ac@posting.google.com>   5 Do you REALLY have to move the porting environment?  <  D I'm not sure what the last version of these utilities is/was; I have8 seen a version 3.4 (May 1990) that runs under VMS 5.5-2.  F If the cross-compilers are really user-mode code (which I believe theyE are) should run on a later (i.e., VMS 7.2+) version of the OS, if youk3 need to run on a more-recent piece of VAX hardware.6  F VAX emulators (CHARON-VAX or other) would be another avenue to pursue,? as opposed to porting the port environment, if I read that part 
 correctly.  ? I'm not aware of any GCC version that will generate 80186 code.o   Ken Randella  g nipun_java@yahoo.com (nipun) wrote in message news:<a52b9f26.0211290027.2745938f@posting.google.com>...g! > Any input would be appreciated.t >  > Domain : Embedded Systemsm >  > The problem statement :  > C > Software Development Environment on VAX-VMS has to be ported to ayG > suitable target development environment.The target processor is Intel  > 80186 Processor. > E > The code is written in ASM186 & PLM186 assembly languages and Intelt, > cross compilers are used to generate code. > E > 1)Can anyone give any pointers with respect to availability of suchaG > cross compilers/assembler for ASM186 & PLM186 on other platforms likel/ > windows,linux,sun solaris?.If so, any links..w > H > 2)Does GCC support such cross compilation for 80186 processors and are8 > gcc ports available for different target environments? >  > Nipuny   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:55:58 +0000  From: paul.beaudoin@hsbc.com2 Subject: Memo:  Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10E Message-ID: <OF91184627.CD916656-ON80256C83.003F07EC@systems.uk.hsbc>   J As others have pointed out, Island Computers (dbturner@islandco.com) would" be a fine place to make enquiries. <Gush_mode_on)E I bought a DPW 500au from them at a better price, faster delivery and * support beyond anything experienced in UK.% I can't recommend them highly enough.  <Gush_mode_off>l  	 Hi David!p   Paul              ' ** HSBC's website is at www.hsbc.com **m  D ********************************************************************A This E-mail is confidential.  It may also be legally privileged. pD If you are not the addressee you may not copy, forward, disclose or @ use any part of it. If you have received this message in error, G please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender t immediately by return E-mail.c  C Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely, secure, . error or virus-free. -A The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions.n  D ********************************************************************   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:04:33 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility 5 Message-ID: <asfb7o$qkhqd$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>o  2 "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de> schreef in bericht news:3deb2c26@news.post.ch...  > Hello, >m6 > could somebody help me, with the following question: > K > can junks of binary data (representing complex structs, arrarys, uniouns, K > records in C or Ada programms) be savely transfered between OpenVMS (AXP)m4 > and Tru64 without special effort like marshalling? >tK If two operating systems support the same hardware platform then there's no F guarantee that they are binary compatible. Each o/s has its own system' services, procedure call standards etc. G If "binary data" here is meant to be "compiler output" then I guess thep answer is negative.i' Could you explain the term marshalling?n   Hans   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:47:17 +0100% From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de>y/ Subject: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility # Message-ID: <3deb2c26@news.post.ch>    Hello,  4 could somebody help me, with the following question:  I can junks of binary data (representing complex structs, arrarys, uniouns, I records in C or Ada programms) be savely transfered between OpenVMS (AXP) 2 and Tru64 without special effort like marshalling?   best regards   Jakob"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 06:40:21 -0500c0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibilityi/ Message-ID: <3DEB4686.B0E48391@vl.videotron.ca>i   Jakob Erber wrote:K > can junks of binary data (representing complex structs, arrarys, uniouns,iK > records in C or Ada programms) be savely transfered between OpenVMS (AXP) 4 > and Tru64 without special effort like marshalling?  M If you mean data files, then theoretically yes. Both VMS and Tru64 are littlenG endian and this the binary represenation of int, short etc is the same.a  M However, what you need to consider is that VMS has file organisation, whereas I Unix doesn't. So you will have to make sure that the file transfer methodjH deals with the VMS file structures properly when converting to/from VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:10:33 +0100o6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibilityr) Message-ID: <3DEBA219.5040104@vajhoej.dk>s   Jakob Erber wrote:  6 > could somebody help me, with the following question: > K > can junks of binary data (representing complex structs, arrarys, uniouns,eK > records in C or Ada programms) be savely transfered between OpenVMS (AXP)a4 > and Tru64 without special effort like marshalling?     Yes.  7 But be sure to read the manuals carefully about all thei nasty things that may hit you:'    - different aligninment by compilersg"    - different sizes of data types etc.etc.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:31:15 -0500s2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingn. Message-ID: <3DEB60A3.6DA163C3@mindspring.com>   Marty Kuhrt wrote:  C > Having looked at the thread and Atlant's take on it, I read it as2B > Atlant admitting that the poor quality of the education that theB > schools are providing in US _are_ a problem created by the Left.   I admit no such thing.  3 It isn't the left that's defunding public educationo0 as rapidly as possible in favor of private (read "religious") education.t  9 It isn't the left that's planning on blowing $200 billiono4 (thousand million) dollars blowing Iraqis to kingdom1 come. That's about $700 for every man, woman, andS5 child in America, money that might be spent educating 8 folks, but will instead be spent inciting future Islamic1 fundamentalsts terrorists to take up arms against  Americans worldwide.  1 It isn't the left that's deciding that we need to / teach all our future Nobel non-laureates Bible-t3 based creationism (even if it's called "intelligentd5 design") in favor of Evolution via Natural Selection.f  0 It isn't the left that runs the Texas schoolbook3 selection committee, a major force in ensuring that 2 American textbooks *NATION-WIDE* are content-free.- Wouldn't want to offend the Gablers and their,$ incredibly narrow view of the world!  + I lay the blame for the decline in Americann/ academic performance squarely where it belongs:o/ The rise of anti-intelectualism and the fall ofr- parental rsponsibility. "American" is rapidlyd, becoming equivalent to "Ignoranus, and proud of it!"i  5 No, sorry, I don't admit that the failure of Americann# education is the fault of the left.    Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:59:23 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)I# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingy3 Message-ID: <lbtN+R4lvJgV@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  o In article <Uk8F9.71605$Kj1.3154550@twister.austin.rr.com>, LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) writes:c0 > Bob Koehler (koehler@encompasserve.org) wrote:A > : In article <01C29565.8DD07680@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith b > : <ssmith@icius.com> writes:J > : > What really bugs me is that some people over here seem to think thatN > : > America single handedly won the war and nobody else did anything useful. > : >  > : I > :    Thats because all our history teachers skipped WWI and WWII.  TheyhE > :    figured what we learned from John Wayne would be close enough.m > : I > That certainly applied to my education, and may explain why the Historye& > Channel is popular with many people.  E    TV can be good stuff.  That's where I learned how much the SovietscF    contributed to WWII.  Somehow that didn't make it into the American    or British movies.o  F    And I also learned about the times the US invaded the Soviet Union.>    No wonder they felt they had to protect themselves from us.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:16:51 -07001 From: "Deane Williams" <dwilliams296@comcast.net>a Subject: Pathworks and IPC$m0 Message-ID: <5RqdnTz5RJRmOXagXTWcpA@comcast.com>   Systems:* VMS 7.3 and Pathworks Advanced Server 6.0D' VMS 7.3 and  Pathworks Lan Manager 5.0Er& NT 4..0/Windows 2000 Pro/Windows 98SR2 Problem:- Changed the password for users on the NT/2000 ) systems and now Pathworks comes back witht3 the "You must supply a password for this connections
 \\NOUNIX\IPC$ 2 Connecting to a 5.0E system everything works okay.1 We tried every password and even used some of thesI "hacks" , but nothing works. Would it be easy to downgrade the 6.0 to the  5.0. Thanks   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:55:49 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com+ Subject: Re: Province code change in Canada-? Message-ID: <OF6D3AC606.CB42DCF9-ON85256C83.006265A4@metso.com>a   When was this official?  Did the flag change, too?M6 Is there a link to a picture of the new province flag?  " [You forgot the 'ockey, isn't it?]    H From:  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> on 11/27/2002 05:11 PM  < Please respond to JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:e  . Subject:    Re: Province code change in Canada     jlsue wrote: >cB > I don't know why, but this remindes me of Monty Python sketches.  E > >Essentially, the code for the canadian provice of Newfoundland haso changedpE > >from NF to NL due to the official name change from newfoundland to  > >"Newfoundland and Labrador".e  H Just a reminder that not all canadians are lumberjacks. We also have furJ traders, igloo makers and a thriving industry that builds tents and arrows :-)p :-) :-)r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:17:18 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?h0 Message-ID: <00A17CDD.97E4B200@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <3DEA5800.C38836F4@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: >Keith Parris wrote:F >> You're being overly paranoid -- after all, MMS is used to build VMS >> itself. @ >nJ >And ALL-IN-1/message router used to handle the vast majority of Digital'sJ >email network. Yet that was canned.  FMS was almost canned.  VAX-DocumentK >which was used for all of the VMS documentattion was canned, sold to a 3rdlB >party, only to realise later it was a mistake (who owns it now ?)   Touch Technologies.   # http://www.ttinet.com/products.html    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            v5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ,   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:18:38 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>/ Subject: RE: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?a0 Message-ID: <01C299E3.CCEFAAC0@sulfer.icius.com>  F Does MMK work with CMS as well as MMS does? I've not used MMK, but MMS does work very well with CMS.s   Shane    -----Original Message-----: From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org [mailto:lewis@mazda.mitre.org]' Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:19 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com / Subject: Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?o    E Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes in articleeB <3DE742BD.C96E75CB@aaa.com> dated Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:34:37 +0100: >Hi.. >Is there any reason to use MMS from Compaq/HP >instead of the free MMK ?  % MMS is contractually supported by HP.a  . >Is there anything MMS can do that MMK can't ?  H Although I have stumbled across differences, they behave identically for theo vast majority of projects.  F Compaq added some new features to MMS as recently as Dec 2001 (V3.4) IB think.  The .ACTION_STATUS directive would be good if you're using javac,E for example.  I do not know if the MMK crew is attempting to keep up.c  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:48:53 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)b Subject: Re: Recursive Deletiono3 Message-ID: <d8cNpfoc87kb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0211270750.2ee8640f@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >  > B > Possible reasons that *.DIR are still protected from deletion by
 > default:  D    0.  To maintain upward compatability.  Prior to VMS 3.0 you couldH       delete a directory if it was not empty, but you had delete access.G       Now delete checks to see if the file is marked as a directory and        if so, if it is empty.  H       VMS has always created directories without delete access and thereF       has been no reason to break upward compatability on this.  We'reF       all lucky that it takes a real string reason for VMS engineering$       to break upward compatability.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:52:10 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler): Subject: RE: Recursive Deletions3 Message-ID: <w9K+K$5GRoz7@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEFBGCAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:sC > A COPY/DELETE similar to unix 'mv' would be useful,  maybe even ad > /RECURSIVE qualifier./ >    $mv:==@path:move.com  ) where move.com contains (not /recursive):o    $if p1 .eqs. "?" then $goto help $oldfile = f$edit(p1,"upcase")1 $oldtype = f$parse(oldfile,,,"type","no_conceal")i4 $version = f$parse(oldfile,,,"version","no_conceal")2 $device = f$parse(oldfile,,,"device","no_conceal") $flag = f$edit(p4,"upcase")y $! $opt = f$edit(p3,"upcase")- $if (opt .eqs. "LOG") .or. (opt .eqs. "/LOG")" $thenh $   opt = "/log" $elsep $   opt = "" $endifJ $if device .nes. f$parse(p2,,,"device","no_conceal") then goto copy_delete $!5 $if (flag .eqs. "NONAME") .or. (flag .eqs. "/NONAME")i $thena $  oldfile = oldfile - devicec $  analyze/rms/fdl 'oldfileo $  fdlfile = oldfile - oldtype $  create/fdl='fdlfile''opt 'p2n $  on warning then goto nodel:0 $  convert/fdl='fdlfile nl:+'device''oldfile 'p2 $  delete'opt 'oldfile''version. $nodel:e $  olds = $statusT $  delete'opt 'fdlfile.fdl;t
 $  exit 'oldsi $else  $  rename'opt 'oldfile 'p2 $endif $exitl $!
 $copy_delete:m5 $if (flag .eqs. "NONAME") .or. (flag .eqs. "/NONAME")t $thenw $  oldfile = oldfile - devicee $  analyze/rms/fdl 'oldfileI $  fdlfile = oldfile - oldtype $  create/fdl='fdlfile''opt 'p2   $  on warning then exit &$status0 $  convert/fdl='fdlfile nl:+'device''oldfile 'p2 $  delete'opt 'fdlfile.fdl;m $elseo  $  on warning then exit &$status $  copy'opt 'oldfile 'p2 $endif $oldfile = oldfile - version $delete'opt 'oldfile''version  $exitc $! $help: $type sys$input: $decks  B    MOVE  	Moves a file to possibly different volume, possibly with                 no name. r  	    Format $ 	MOVE oldfile newfile [LOG [NONAME]]   	where 		oldfile 	is an existing file8 		newfile  	is a valid filename, possibly on a different'                                  volumemC 	        LOG           	is an optional part of the command to turn a 				 on /log< 		NONAME        	is an optional part of the command to cause0 				 the name to be dropped (keep the extension) $eod    -   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:53:23 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n Subject: Re: Recursive Deletion 3 Message-ID: <yPR2vRkomxF8@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  b In article <3de4f643$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes: >>* From the command line, >>* >>    $ set file [...]*.dir;* /prot=o=rwed >>    $ delete [...]*.*;*c >  > Make that last command > * > $ delete [...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;* > 6 > to clear out the entire tree, including directories.      On ODS-2 you can make that:  #   $ delete [...]*.*;*,;,;,;,;,;,;,;a  )    but on ODS-5 you could go much deeper.-   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:53:40 -0600t- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)d Subject: Re: Recursive Deletiono3 Message-ID: <vE4zoXv7uPgF@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  w In article <01KPDDC746WOA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:i+ >> $ delete [...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*t >> s7 >> to clear out the entire tree, including directories.m > < > Is this behaviour "supported" or does it work "by chance"?        Documented and supported.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 11:55:16 -0600u- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: Recursive Deletiono3 Message-ID: <pjE$ycdPXht0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0211271450.1a361e26@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:f > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEFBGCAA.tom@kednos.com>...D >> A COPY/DELETE similar to unix 'mv' would be useful,  maybe even a >> /RECURSIVE qualifier. > , > Isn't this what BACKUP/VERIFY/DELETE does?  E    No.  BACKUP and COPY make different decisions on whether to change0E    the create date of the resulting file.  backup/delete will leave a /    tree of empty directory files at the source.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:02:17 -0500! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>$! Subject: Re: SIMMs in DECpc 450STrK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BA7@rlghncst964.usps.gov>h  @ 	Dave, I just pulled down my 2/94 Systems & Options catalog, and 	it says they're:h  6 	PCTAM-CC =	4 MBytes	(2 x 2Mbytes, 80ns, 36-bit SIMMS)6 	PCTAM-CD =	8 MBytes	(2 x 4Mbytes, 80ns, 36-bit SIMMS)7 	PCTAM-CE =	16 MBytes	(2 x 8Mbytes, 80ns, 36-bit SIMMS)r8 	PCTAM-CF =	32 MBytes	(2 x 16Mbytes, 80ns, 36-bit SIMMS)  9 	The date tells me they predate fast page, and from what c< 	I know about DEC stuff in general, I'd have assumed they'd < 	have been	parity, but the specs say I'd have assumed wrong. 	:^)   	WWWebbn  B Does nayone happen to know what type of SIMMs will work in a DECpcH 450ST? I don't have the doc. for this beast, so I'm hoping someone knows whether they need to be:   o parity o non-parity o FPMw  E Note to comp.os.vms - sorry, I know this is off-topic, but since when  does that make a difference?   -- David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/   ========================  William W. Webb / DSSC/RLM, USPS OpenVMS Support Services& 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616-2800: 919.874.3043 <FirstInitialDotLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:58:51 GMTG( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: SMTP Help+ Message-ID: <3DEBADDF.CAEC7566@pacbell.net>    Any ideas on this ?o( I'm running Alpha VMS 7.2, TCPIP Ver 5.1  9 Beginning on 11-Nov I started getting this error in every  TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG file.a  P Error in MX lookup for destination host 210.204.129.7217.220.13.35203.24.88.2624 .140.20.47. IOSB status: 20   F Status 20 is a bad parameter (no wonder with an IP address like that).M Anyway Im still getting my email, but this appears with every email (in everye
 log file).: I tried restarting SMTP, but the messages come back again.& Is there any point to trying a reboot?   Any help is much appreciated.j -- R   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)0
 San Franciscoo   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:11:12 -0800s! From: soterro@yahoo.com (Soterro)i Subject: Re: SRM for multiboot= Message-ID: <d5440555.0212020611.2940022b@posting.google.com>u  k Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message news:<3DEAE6BD.C5AB5678@firstdbasource.com>...nJ > However,  Most of us running VMS don't normally run more than one OS per  A Well when the only WYSIWYG editor available on VMS 7.3 is Mozilla D Composer(*), I think that I need also a second choice, better suitedD to home use. I don't feel like teaching my wife tag codes for TeX orC dunno what, plus Mozilla on VMS has another similarity with MSWord:s crashes a lot (alas no BSOD).t  F (*) yes I thought about the dinosaur DECWrite but that doesn't work onB 7.3 and the company who sells it (NOT Dec/Cpq/Hp how come?!) neverF returned my emails regarding price quotes for the 3.1A (I found out onA this group about its existence). That for their support for older 
 applications.m   Sorin    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:54:49 -0500d2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?. Message-ID: <3DEB6629.AB9362B6@mindspring.com>   Carl Perkins wrote:t  . > What makes you think they are 8.5" x 11"?...A > The size of the sheet in question hasn't been specified, so thei$ > size of the raw image isn't known.  0 You're right -- the size of the scan hasn't been. stated. But people who have access to scanners0 bigger than "legal" size probably have access to/ the technical resources to deal with the statedh problem. :-)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:56:10 -0500R2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?. Message-ID: <3DEB667A.C0005B01@mindspring.com>   John Nebel wrote:m  	 > Atlant,s >'K > Pretty good inference on the image size - one of the larger images is 8.5 7 > x 13.1.  An example of one of the single notes is on:    (Atlant waves to Carl Perkins!)    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:00:54 -0500d2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?. Message-ID: <3DEB6796.A4DD56C4@mindspring.com>   John Nebel wrote:(  H > Photoshop will deal with files up to 30,000 pixels square so the sheet > scans exceed that in length.  0 ~15 bits, ehh??? I guess it's time we tell Adobe! that the world is scaling up. :-)t  1 30,000 pels along each edge isn't too many ordersc( of magnitude bigger than what *CONSUMER*/ cameras are delivering, and it's only 3-6 timesa0 what professional line-scan cameras (Leaf, etc.)+ have been delivering for quite a while now.o   Thanks for the follow-up!o   Atlant   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:04:05 -0700 (MST)" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?G Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0212020748180.26603-100000@athena.csdco.com>s  ) On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Atlant Schmidt wrote:e   > Carl Perkins wrote:; > 0 > > What makes you think they are 8.5" x 11"?...C > > The size of the sheet in question hasn't been specified, so thee& > > size of the raw image isn't known. > 2 > You're right -- the size of the scan hasn't been0 > stated. But people who have access to scanners2 > bigger than "legal" size probably have access to1 > the technical resources to deal with the stated> > problem. :-) >  > Atlant >  >  >  >"  D Greetings Atlant,a  I Yes thanks, I do.  FYI, the scanner is a Creo Eversmart Supreme which hase7 5.6K dpi optical resolution and a 12"x17" scanning bed.>  E As for waving at Carl Perkins, did you know that Jacob Perkins is theu$ father of modern bank note printing?  
 John Nebel   n   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:15:46 -0700 (MST)" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?G Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0212020806080.26603-100000@athena.csdco.com>   ) On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Atlant Schmidt wrote:    > John Nebel wrote:e > J > > Photoshop will deal with files up to 30,000 pixels square so the sheet  > > scans exceed that in length. > 2 > ~15 bits, ehh??? I guess it's time we tell Adobe# > that the world is scaling up. :-)o > 3 > 30,000 pels along each edge isn't too many orderse* > of magnitude bigger than what *CONSUMER*1 > cameras are delivering, and it's only 3-6 timesa2 > what professional line-scan cameras (Leaf, etc.)- > have been delivering for quite a while now.t >  > Thanks for the follow-up!- >  > Atlant >  >  >e  o Atlant,   E They are really up against the limit of 32-bit hardware with not manyu
 places to go.r  f John   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:44:37 -0500o2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: TIFF processing on VMS?. Message-ID: <3DEB7FE5.6675FB1A@mindspring.com>   John Nebel wrote:n  G > They are really up against the limit of 32-bit hardware with not manyt > places to go.   ( Well, at least until those 64-bit Power4% demi-reject chips start showing up int Macintoshes, ehh?g  , (I sure hope that Apple and IBM reach a deal on those chips!)   Atlant   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:59:26 -0000- From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>d+ Subject: RE: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10 E Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CB0A8@tahiti.tinuk.com>n  C Well, obviously you do, otherwise you would have put Florida in the: right place initially...   ;^D    Cheers   Steve Sy   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com]=20e > Sent: 02 December 2002 03:23 > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi- > Subject: Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10" >=20 >=20 > Shane Smith wrote:H > > Dave may be a Limey (like me) but he's based on the west coast of=20 > > America. Florida, I think. >=20D > For extremely loose values of "west coast".  Geez, I thought us=208 > 'merkins were supposed to suffer from lousy geography. >=20 >=20 >=20   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 06:40:36 -0800t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e+ Subject: Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10g) Message-ID: <asfrd402rci@drn.newsguy.com>   6 In article <3DEAEFB2.6A93677E@sunset.net>, Tom says... >u >Shane:d >o >When did Florida move? 9 >Last time I checked it was on the East Coast of the USA._I >By the way Island Computer company is located in Savannah Georgia, about ( >500 odd miles north of Miami Florida.    F They just had a ballot (disputed) and voted to move to the west coast.E California swaps places and gets to face Cuba. Thought best all round-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:53:44 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>+ Subject: RE: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS10g0 Message-ID: <01C299E8.B69F49B0@sulfer.icius.com>  $ Sorry, I meant East coast of course.   -----Original Message-----, From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com]' Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:23 PMd To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh+ Subject: Re: Wanted: Second hand Alpha DS104     Shane Smith wrote:C > Dave may be a Limey (like me) but he's based on the west coast ofA > America. Florida, I think.  @ For extremely loose values of "west coast".  Geez, I thought us 6 'merkins were supposed to suffer from lousy geography.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:38:48 -0700r+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>l1 Subject: Re: [OT] FORTRAN-based accounting system ' Message-ID: <3DEB9AA8.4060107@MMaz.com>d   Randy Park wrote:h  > >John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> wrote in message/ >news:20021127185322.A31147@eisenschmidt.org...t >  0 >aF >>May or may not be/have been on VMS, but are any of you familiar with* >>an accounting system written in FORTRAN? >> >>     >>< >The ManMan software package written by ASK Computer Systems9 >probably had some accounting modules.  It was written in9; >Fortran and used DBMS.  The last I heard about ManMans wash7 >that it was owned and support by MK Group which is was.# >subsidiary of Computer Associates.n >n >  o > D Nope, now SSA and yes, they do have an AP, AR (which includes their H order management module which is why it is called OMAR), and GL.  Randy I is correct, the software is written in Fortran and it does require DBMS, r+ which Oracle has owned for some time now...e   Barrye   -- M  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028c   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.666 ************************