1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 04 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 669       Contents:* Advanced Server PWRK$LMSRV process crashes. Re: Advanced Server PWRK$LMSRV process crashes, Re: Alternatives to "DEC LMF PAK GEN V1.3" ?* Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???! Re: Carly on Newsnight3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper , Re: Directory and Copy with un-expired files$ Re: DS10 VMS 7.3-1 DECW$SERVER crash3 Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed 7 Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed 7 Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed 7 Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed 7 Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed " Re: HELP: DCL and quotation marks! Re: Hobbyist CD - VAX < Re: How does VMS behave with 128 serial ports on Digiboards?$ Issue with Working Set in SYS$CREPRC( Re: Issue with Working Set in SYS$CREPRC" Re: lock manager and blocking asts" Re: lock manager and blocking asts Re: Manipulating the call stack M number of fiber connections from alpha to switch and from switch to symmetrix P Re: number of fiber connections from alpha to switch and from switch to symmetri* Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger FlippingD Railroads in Scranton (was: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John...)& Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?& Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?& Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ? Re: Recursive Deletion
 Re: SMTP Help 
 Re: SMTP Help  Re: SRM for multiboot  Re: SRM for multiboot  Re: SRM for multiboot " Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators VMS C-Kermit with SSL/TLS  what does this command mean  RE: what does this command mean  Re: what does this command mean  Re: what does this command mean  Re: what does this command mean   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:58:46 +1030 % From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au> 3 Subject: Advanced Server PWRK$LMSRV process crashes * Message-ID: <3DEC32FE.27CC3F14@vsm.com.au>   Hi,   = Advanced Server V7.3 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3, DS20E (dual CPU).   N Three times today our PWRK$LMSRV process has crashed with the error "GC sanityB check failure".  This causes a big problem because we use ExternalC Authentication and when PATHWORKS isn't running users can't log in.   G I suspect a resource problem of some sort but don't know where to start K looking.  I ran ADMIN/CONFIG to see if anything obvious popped up but there  were no problems there.    Any suggestions?   Thanks,            Jeremy Begg   =   +---------------------------------------------------------+ =   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              | =   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  | =   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        | =   |---------------------------------------------------------| =   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au | =   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 8221 5188   | =   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      | =   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 8221 7199   | =   +---------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:52:44 -05005 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com> 7 Subject: Re: Advanced Server PWRK$LMSRV process crashes / Message-ID: <uuqrg09vb88ve1@corp.supernews.com>   L I don't recall the "sanity check failures" messages occurring with the crash4 in gcfree which is fixed in ECO2, but, its possible.  K Compare the trace back in the release notes to the traceback you are seeing ' in the LMSRV log file for confirmation.   I Regardless, anyone who is running Advanced Server V7.3 should contact the J CSC and get themselves ECO2.  If it still occurs after ECO2, then, contactJ CSC and escalate to engineering.  We'll want a copy of the PWRK$LMSRV dump file.   
 Brad McCusker    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 08:24:49 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> 5 Subject: Re: Alternatives to "DEC LMF PAK GEN V1.3" ? ' Message-ID: <3DEC5C41.C93908F0@aaa.com>   9 Yes, absolutly, running whatever is the latest-n-greatest / version of this tool is of course my option #1.   < But, if my client insist in running this older variant, well  > Personly I'v never used this PAK generation tool, so I'm a bitA lost here, or *was lost* at least, before opening this thread :-)   $ Many thanks so far to all replying !  	 Jan-Erik.      Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > I >   VEST will very likely work for various PAK generation operations, but I >   there are changes to LMF and to licensing options that you might wish J >   to use now or in the future, changes that are not available within the8 >   context of your client's older PAK generation tools. > I >   The original PAK generation tool was officially retired prior to Y2K.  > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:09:14 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>3 Subject: Re: Are VMS operations really this bad???! 0 Message-ID: <3DED2B00.C1EDB36B@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Larry, > + > Actually, not the original posters fault.  > J > It was actually a great "typo". I had sent an email to the person listedG > thinking it would take awhile anyway before it got fixed. As it turns E > out, she removed it immediately until her web people could post the  > corrected listing. > D > Anyway, the url was for a number of OpenVMS (and NT) Operator type# > positions and the posting stated:  > H > "The role at present doe not involve shift work but as from March next > year it will be shit work."  > J > As I mentioned, the updated posting is supposed to be available shortly. >  > :-)  >    , Fair enough that was a typo, but this isn't,  H http://www.it.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=61421F6D0444317C  b Leading professional services consultancy are seeking a Operations Support Engineer with a minimumW of 2 years experience and no more than 5 years in an operations environment for a large 
 organisation; .                           !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  d solid experience of batch procedures and tape backup systems; proficient in Unix & NT; Furthermore u; must have VMS/VAX. Superb opportunity pls send you CV now!.    Talk about being ultra picky.    --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk    H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:09:12 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Carly on Newsnight / Message-ID: <3DED0156.D14F7071@vl.videotron.ca>    jlsue wrote:F > I guess I must be missing someting.  I thought that's what economiesH > of scale meant.  I.e., both companies' businesses can be served by oneC > or 1.5 times the line-of-business (product lines, management, et.  > al.).   J If you invest 25 billion in "something" you expect that the assets you areI buying will generate sufficient profit to make that 25 billion investment O return more than if you had put in into you savings account at the local bank.    M Compaq did bring is some "valuable" assets such as VMS, Tandem. Those are net F gains because they do not replace existing HP products and because theJ customers are tied to the vendor and are therefore , to a large exoent allH transfered to HP, at least initially. But in all other cases, the CompaqM products are either abandonned or  replace HP products, so it isn't much of a J net gain. Just in incremental gain because you replace an existing product  with a slightly better product.   M Because Wintel is commodity, customers do not follow to HP automatically. All J it means is that when they buy a PC, they now look at Dell, HP and GatewayN (and possibly IBM) and no longer waste time by check out Compaq's products. SoH HP didn't really win any customers. The Compaq piece of the pie will getP distributed amongst the remaining wintel makers according to their market share.  C And then, there are all the unused assets from Digital, such as the M intellectual property of Alpha, and all the patents etc from the Digital era. M Did HP have to pay for those even though they are nopt likely to ever be used  ?   I Financially, I don't think that this was a wise investment. HP could have M designed its own iPAQ lookalike for less than it cost to buy Compaq. Palm was L able to oust PSION in a couple of years. Considering the Compaq iPAQ was farN from erfect in tersm of hardware robustness, HP could have done better. (heck,N perhaps it should have been Agilent that produced such a device since they areH the *real* HP and their calculators were renowned for their robustness).  L In the end, this was a strategic move to eliminate a competitor. It did moreJ to help Intel than HP. Afterall, Carly convinced Curly it was time to kill
 Alpha now.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:17:55 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper/ Message-ID: <3DED0361.A2B2FF31@vl.videotron.ca>    Atlant Schmidt wrote: . > I guess I have a lot more faith in the speed0 > of technological progress than most of you do.  H Then, what we should be aiming for is DNA authentication. Give a drop ofB blood, or a piece of hair to a machine which analises your DNA andJ authenticates you. That is pretty foolproof (but not 100%). Then again, itM isn't hard to extract DNA from someone else and feed it to the authenticator.   M It seems to me that memory is still the best method: you only grant access if L you want to. If you do not wish to reveal the code, you don't and they can't extract it from your brain.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:30:50 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper. Message-ID: <3DED066A.21478E89@mindspring.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  Y > In article <01C29AB4.4D792150@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: H > > The trains aren't all gone. Until I moved home last week, I was justH > > within hearing distance of the local railway line. It mostly carriedK > > cargo, but there were passenger trains. Don't know if any were intended I > > for commuters though. The nearest station was 3 miles down the track.  > > J > > There was at least one ******* driver who insisted on hitting the hornI > > on the way through town in the middle of the night. I'd have loved to & > > have a percussive word with him... > I > Whenever there is a grade crossing (road crosses the tracks without any J > bridge), engineers are required to signal the equivalent of a Morse Code& > "Q" with their horn.  It is the law.  , Not anymore. In many places, the locals have1 convinced the Powers-that-Be that the inconvience 3 of being awakened at night by the train horn trumps 9 the inconvenience of being flattened at a grade crossing,  so no horns are sounded.  2 This is very common in the tonier neighborhoods of suburban Massachusetts.    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:40:57 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper8 Message-ID: <6v1quukmttqmmn3dkuaoe4d8nt1il7v12o@4ax.com>  2 On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:52:06 -0500, Atlant Schmidt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:     > / >Prediction: Passwords are a thing of the past; 3 >it'll all be biometrics soon anyway. Fingerprints, 4 >iris scans, voiceprints, signature, finger lengths,1 >I don't know which will win, but it will be some  >sort of biometrics.  E Hey, they'll have to pry my fingerprints from my cold, dead, .... oh,  wait.   F Anyway, personally I'm not a fan of biometric means of identification.D I think they're too easy to foil.  For example, if every system usesB something like fingerprints, then there's a higher likelihood that> someone with nefarious purposes in mind can extract my digitalB fingerprint info.  Once they have that, they can impersonate me inD ways that will be very difficult to defend against.  For example, toF login to the network, they'd just have to rig up something that can doC the offer/response negotiations and send the stolen digital fp info E along.  Alternatively, they could capture me and cut off a finger (or  eye, etc.).    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:04:28 -0600 ( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper2 Message-ID: <asj2ob$3ie$1@newsreader.mailgate.org>  N On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:17:55 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:  I >Then, what we should be aiming for is DNA authentication. Give a drop of C >blood, or a piece of hair to a machine which analises your DNA and K >authenticates you. That is pretty foolproof (but not 100%). Then again, it N >isn't hard to extract DNA from someone else and feed it to the authenticator. >   N So, you haven't seen the commercial from CA about their security software?  AnL office full of bald-headed people (male and female), trying to get access toN the computers on their desks.  The computer voice is asking for a hair sample,> blood sample and some other things I can't remember right now.  . CA says their software is better than that....        N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204 I                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634 G Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999  3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 53215    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:04:54 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper0 Message-ID: <01C29AC4.4C7AD0E0@sulfer.icius.com>  @ In one of the Bond books, "Live And Let Die" I think, there is aH mechanism described for identifying who's sending a morse code signal byF recognizing the rythms they typically use for certain letters. There'sD probably rythms in the way people type certain letter sequences thatE could be identified. I notice some in my own typing. Of course, typos H totally mess that up so you'd have to allow for them. Given the stats onH a large enough sample of typing you could probably identify someone from" a relatively smaller sample later.   Shane    -----Original Message------ From: jlsue [mailto:jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com] ) Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:41 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper    2 On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:52:06 -0500, Atlant Schmidt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:     > / >Prediction: Passwords are a thing of the past; 3 >it'll all be biometrics soon anyway. Fingerprints, 4 >iris scans, voiceprints, signature, finger lengths,1 >I don't know which will win, but it will be some  >sort of biometrics.  E Hey, they'll have to pry my fingerprints from my cold, dead, .... oh,  wait.   F Anyway, personally I'm not a fan of biometric means of identification.D I think they're too easy to foil.  For example, if every system usesB something like fingerprints, then there's a higher likelihood that> someone with nefarious purposes in mind can extract my digitalB fingerprint info.  Once they have that, they can impersonate me inD ways that will be very difficult to defend against.  For example, toF login to the network, they'd just have to rig up something that can doC the offer/response negotiations and send the stolen digital fp info E along.  Alternatively, they could capture me and cut off a finger (or  eye, etc.).    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:08:57 -0600 ( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper2 Message-ID: <asj30o$3m7$1@newsreader.mailgate.org>  2 On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:30:50 -0500, Atlant Schmidt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:   > - >Not anymore. In many places, the locals have 2 >convinced the Powers-that-Be that the inconvience4 >of being awakened at night by the train horn trumps: >the inconvenience of being flattened at a grade crossing, >so no horns are sounded.  > 3 >This is very common in the tonier neighborhoods of  >suburban Massachusetts. >  >Atlant  >   J Makes it much easier for the victim's family to sue the railroad that way., "There was no notice of the train coming."        N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204 I                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634 G Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999  3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 53215    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:32:14 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper. Message-ID: <3DED14CE.536AC3B7@mindspring.com>   David Harrold wrote:  ; > On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:30:50 -0500, Atlant Schmidt wrote: / > >Not anymore. In many places, the locals have 4 > >convinced the Powers-that-Be that the inconvience6 > >of being awakened at night by the train horn trumps< > >the inconvenience of being flattened at a grade crossing, > >so no horns are sounded.  > > 5 > >This is very common in the tonier neighborhoods of  > >suburban Massachusetts. > > 	 > >Atlant  > L > Makes it much easier for the victim's family to sue the railroad that way., > "There was no notice of the train coming."  1 Well, there is a small matter of flashing lights, . ringing bells, and dropped crossing gates, but) nowadays in America, I suppose anyone can / attempt any legal "strategery". Sometimes, they 	 even win!    Atlant   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:48:46 -05005 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> < Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the RipperO Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A49A@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>   A um, there's torture, and also "bad memory" to contend with... :-)    -----Original Message-----8 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca] ( Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:18 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper     Atlant Schmidt wrote: . > I guess I have a lot more faith in the speed0 > of technological progress than most of you do.  H Then, what we should be aiming for is DNA authentication. Give a drop ofB blood, or a piece of hair to a machine which analises your DNA andJ authenticates you. That is pretty foolproof (but not 100%). Then again, it> isn't hard to extract DNA from someone else and feed it to the authenticator.  J It seems to me that memory is still the best method: you only grant accessI if you want to. If you do not wish to reveal the code, you don't and they ! can't extract it from your brain.     I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and J confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is J strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theI original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or J instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying$ out such orders and/or instructions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:29:55 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper/ Message-ID: <3DEBFAFF.F9381272@vl.videotron.ca>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:4 > > reactive irises aren't susceptible to the simple4 > > passive fake-outs seen in movies like "Charlie's > > Angels". > < > Sorry, I rely on more reputable sources for information on > biometrics.  :-)  K All those fancy authorisation are totally useless. Every sunday, ABC TV (in M USA) has a one hour documentary showing how a young girl (Sydney Bristow) can I break into all the super high intensity security systems/building in mere M seconds and without much training.  This last sunday, she needed fingerprints M of a dead guy in the balkans and she had no problems getting them in order to L gain access to some fancy lock that opens a suitacse that contained a laptopM which contain the super secret passwords/codes. (On has to wonder however how A she gets through airport security with all her high tech gadgets.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:33:43 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper4 Message-ID: <1021202192226.400A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Mon, 2 Dec 2002 hammond@not wrote:   8 > In article <asgdoa$qop3a$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, , > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > .. > >> Charlie Hammond wrote:  > >>  3 > >> Prediction: Passwords are a thing of the past; 7 > >> it'll all be biometrics soon anyway. Fingerprints, 8 > >> iris scans, voiceprints, signature, finger lengths,5 > >> I don't know which will win, but it will be some  > >> sort of biometrics. > .. > 	 > Nope.    > Incorrect attribution.; > I did NOT write this, nor did I express an opinion on it.   ; Actually, according to Bill's post, Atlant wrote it (and in ; a subsequent follow up, Atlant responds, snipping the bogus 8 ">> Charlie Hammond wrote:" line but not challenging the attribution...)   9 Charlie:  Since the "Charlie Hammond wrote:" line and the 7 following text has the same number of >'s, all of it is 8 quoted from the next level out, which was Atlant's post.  7 Bill:  When you snip a post back to some relevant point 7 (a Good Thing, IMHO), and you remove everything someone 4 said, you should also remove the attribution line to avoid this type of confusion.   : The only reason I bring this up is I've noticed it several; times recently on c.o.v, and sometimes it results in rants, : name calling, fights, etc.  I think we have enough of that" when there is a real disagreement.  4 P.S. This thread is making me re-think some security6 issues, which is a good thing, even if I decide we are: already doing it right for the most part.  There is always room for improvement.    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:48:41 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper4 Message-ID: <1021202194650.400B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On 2 Dec 2002, Larry Kilgallen wrote:   f > In article <asghgu$r33oi$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > = > > Heard all that before.  I'm still waiting for my personal ; > > gyrocopter to eliminate fighting the traffic on crowded : > > expressways and the drive-it-self car so I can enjoy a= > > good book while my car handles the task of navigating and  > E > That is called commuter rail, and while there is none in your town, " > there was some 100 years ago :-)  B There was some 25 years ago...  (IIRC, it was suspended during theG blizzard of 78 and was never resumed afterwards.  The tracks have since  been replace by a bike path.)    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:48:59 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper/ Message-ID: <3DEC29A9.4F69227A@vl.videotron.ca>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:O > > All those fancy authorisation are totally useless. Every sunday, ABC TV (in Q > > USA) has a one hour documentary showing how a young girl (Sydney Bristow) can M > > break into all the super high intensity security systems/building in mere & > > seconds and without much training. >  > Documentary??   L Well, everything broadcasted on TV is true, isn't it ? If it isn't true, how# come they have footage showing it ?   E Same with reputable newspapers such as World Weekly News are far more K believable since they always have pictures of the events they are reporting K on, wheras rags such as the new york times just put text in a narrow column  without supporting images.  L NOw, if VMS marketing were smart they would arrange for the World Weekly New
 to report on:   M "Aliens unable to break into VMS system", complete with a picture of an angry  Alien in front of a terminal.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 DEC 2002 21:00:22 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper5 Message-ID: <3DEC02.21002210@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   E In a previous article, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   I ->Whenever there is a grade crossing (road crosses the tracks without any J ->bridge), engineers are required to signal the equivalent of a Morse Code& ->"Q" with their horn.  It is the law.  F Depends where you are (or which law you choose to follow). Here in the@ land of the perpetually offended, there's a local ordinance thatH prohibits train horns during the night time hours with violators subject9 to a fine. The engineers do abide by it most of the time.    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison : --                   karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:27:20 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>< Subject: RE: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper0 Message-ID: <01C29AD8.2F089420@sulfer.icius.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:K > > All those fancy authorisation are totally useless. Every sunday, ABC TV  (in M > > USA) has a one hour documentary showing how a young girl (Sydney Bristow)  can M > > break into all the super high intensity security systems/building in mere & > > seconds and without much training. >  > Documentary??   @ I think he's referring to a fictional spy series called "Alias".   Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:19:29 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper/ Message-ID: <3DED7440.BBC970D5@vl.videotron.ca>    Shane Smith wrote:B > I think he's referring to a fictional spy series called "Alias".  M How do you know it is fictional ? In this era of "reality" TV , any show cold 
 be "real".   :-) :-) ;-)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 00:17 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper, Message-ID: <4DEC200200170287@gerg.tamu.edu>   bill@cs.uofs.edu writes...1 }In article <01C299DF.0D1F5870@sulfer.icius.com>, ( }	Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:K }> <Nitpick mode> There are no 2ghz P3's, although they would be noticeably D }> faster than the 2ghz P4's that Intel does produce.</nitpick mode> } E }Sorry, I never claimed to keep up with this weeks Intel abomination. & }What are they up to now?? P5? P6? P7? }  }bill   ? Still P4, although they probably should have upped it to P5 for @ the newest version as it has a few small differences in the coreE (enabling "hyperthreading", i.e. 2-way SMT - its unfortunate for them C that it doesn't really have the I/O rate to/from the CPU to support B anything like the full theoretical throughput even with the 533MHzD frontside bus). They just have too many different versions of the P4D out now (it was bad enough when they released the "2.0A GHz" version@ since they already had a 2.0 GHz P4 but this one was different).  1 The fastest P3 is below 2GHz, 1.6 or 1.8 I think.   C The fastest P4 is roughly 3GHz (which is getting into the microwave C frequency range), although they might not be readily available yet.    --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 12:24:17 -0800 ' From: dennisb@wvhmhc.org (Dennis Baker) 5 Subject: Re: Directory and Copy with un-expired files = Message-ID: <6f29699e.0212031224.481b755e@posting.google.com>   U Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message news:<3DE29563.56A4DE13@aaa.com>...  > In DFU you can do :  >  > $ DFU SEARCH /EXPIRED=NONE > * > (SEARCH in DFU is much like DIR in DCL.) >  >  > DFU> help search /expired  >  > DFU  > 
 >   SEARCH >  >     /EXPIRED! >        /EXPIRED=keyword(=value)  > > >        This qualifier is used in combination with 3 possible6 >        keywords BEFORE=date, SINCE=date or NONE. The< >        expiration date is used in for selecting files. You: >        can either use SINCE and BEFORE or NONE , but not; >        both. The NONE keyword gives you files which don't 4 >        have a expiration date recorded. Examples : >   >        o  /EXPIRED=BEFORE=date4 >        o  /EXPIRED=(BEFORE=date,SINCE=anotherdate) >        o  /EXPIRED=NONE  >  > 5 > Let DFU output a list on file and use that for (2).  >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.  >  > Dennis Baker wrote:  > >  > > How do you > > > > > (1) get a directory of all files with no expiration dates?+ > > (2) copy files with no expiration date?  > >    Okay, some follow up notes: K 1. Yes, I forgot /expire in addition to /date=expired in my posting.  I was O    trying to show the expiration dates AND select on expiration date.  But that &    wasn't the solution to the problem.J 2. John Santos confirms that dir/expired/sin=17-nov-1858:00:00:00.00 listsJ    everything, expired or not, and dir/expired/sin=17-nov-1858:00:00:00.01E    only lists files that are expired.  However, his suggestion to use O    dir/expired/bef=17-nov-1858:00:00:00.01 to see only files with no expiration H    date does not work: nothing is returned.  This is the problem.  Also,K    dir/expired/sin=17-nov-1858:00:00:00.00/bef=17-nov-1858:00:00:00.01 also     returns nothing. N 3. I looked at DFU 2.7-A.  It does look like it's possible to SEARCH for filesL    with /expired=none, but am I correct that DFU will only process an entireK    drive, with maybe a filename wildcard filter?  I don't want to see EVERY E    file with no expiration date on the disk, just those under a given L    subdirectory, such as dka0:[backup_dkb0_user.shared.bob...].  I suppose IM    could use /OUTPUT to create a HUGE listing, then search for the directory, &    but isn't there an easier way, likeD    DFU> search dka0:[backup_dkb0_user.shared.bob...]*.*/expired=none  O At this point, I'm ready to change all my "un-expired" files in my backup store N to be some fixed date in the future, say year 2299, then maybe all the dir andO copy /expire/sin or /bef switches can be used as intended.  Any other thoughts?2   Dennis Baker Wabash Valley Hospital   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 23:51 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e- Subject: Re: DS10 VMS 7.3-1 DECW$SERVER crashM, Message-ID: <3DEC200223513842@gerg.tamu.edu>  - Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> writes...oI }A DS10 with an Elsa Gloria card, OpenVMS V7.3-1 and Motif V1.2-6. Works rI }OK with default display settings, but when I changed the settings to 24 rH }bits per pixel, things started to get real slow and when I did an Exit J }from CDE, the DECW$SERVER_0 process died. Just restarting DECwindows did 9 }not bring it back, but I had to reboot the whole system.p } C }It seems to me that there is no relation with the contents of the t }[.DT...] directories. } 
 }Bart Zorn  E 1) The Elsa Gloria card is slow (by todays standards) and VMS doesn'tpC take advantage of the card's hardware acceleration much (if at all)iC anyway. At 24 bpp this is very noticable. Nothing will ever make itwC anything but slow at that setting (unless you can modify the drivertA to use more hardware aceleration or something along those lines).e  ? 2) Your problem might be that you changed the bit depth but not$C anything else. When you go to 24 bits you may also need to increaseeB the pagefile quota for the DECwindows server (doing it even if youD stay at 8 bits may be a good thing too - I increased mine to 160000,G which is 60% higher than the default). This would be done by specifyingM1 "decw$server_page_file== 160000" (or whatever) in!> DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM. The relevent parts of this fileA on my system (very simialr to yours - an XP900 with Elsa Gloria -s with a nodename of GERGX):   [...]e' $ ! An example of a real list might be:k $ !g5 $ ! node_list = "BW75/DUTCH/DUTCH2/UK100/LK201/TCPIP"  $ node_list = "GERGX"i [...]m
 $DO_GERGX:  $ decw$server_page_file== 160000 $ decw$xsize_in_pixels == 1280 $ decw$ysize_in_pixels == 10246 $ Define/Exec/System/NoLog decw$server_refresh_rate 75B $ Define/Exec/System/NoLog decw$server_pixel_depth 8 !8, 16, or 24 $ Exit  H As I recall, it was consuming excessive CPU and running slow at 24 bits,F and it had some weird color problems at 16. Thus I am back to 8, where2 it performs adequitely and without color problems.  C If you really want to improve your graphics, you should upgrade theuH card to the Oxygen VX1. Not only is the card better, but IIRC the driverH actually supports the card's acceleration (so it does less in software).  D The Else Gloria card also has an excessive bus reset (I think it is)F problem. This is bad enough that it makes my clock loose anywhere fromI a couple to several seconds every day that I'm logged in (the reset takesdH place at a higher interrupt priority than the clock interrupt) - you canI tell about when I am busy doing things that cause lots of screen updates, L and possibly even when I log in and out within perhaps a half hour accuracy,G by looking at the NTP log and seeing when the excessive updating of theEF clock starts and stops. NTP adjusted the time forward 15 times just onE Monday afternoon for a total of about 17.4 seconds over the course ofsF just under 5 hours - I was doing things involving lots of scrolling inF the terminal window. When I am not here it rarely adjusts the time (itI is very rare for anyone else to log into it from the display). I wouldn'trF be surprised if this frequent reset problem is reducing performance inH areas other than just the clock (in fact, I'd be surprised if it wasn't,C at least a little). If you are having problems with it keeping good-" time, thus is probably the reason.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 03:42:36 GMT 7 From: "Charles N. Burns" <burnscharlesn_AT_hotm@il.com> < Subject: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed7 Message-ID: <MKVG9.40230$wS.3042499@news1.west.cox.net>   G If this is the wrong newsgroup for questions, please let me know which u would be more proper.h   Grey screen:I My college has a number of HP Entria II terminals which we are hoping to  G replace with something more advanced. We are currently evaluating some -H Jammin 125 terminals from disklessworkstations.com, which use LTSP (the L Linux Terminal Server Project, www.ltsp.org) as their software for managing 	 all this.rL Using XDM, the terminals can log into the Unix and Linux systems just fine, I but they get the infamous X grey screen (of death?) when they attempt to iE log into any of our three VMS systems: a Vax 4000-100 and two Alphas.s  J I am hoping someone here may know if there exists some sort of difference D in the required setup of a VMS system compared to a Unix system for J allowing XDMCP connections. If not, can anyone suggest any common hiccups  that may be occurring.  E The X terminals CAN log into the VMS systems just fine when they are sI configured to log into them directly, that is, they are configured to go  K straight to one particular VMS server (with no chooser) and show the login :H manager. It's when any login is attempted via the XDM chooser, which is & running on Redhat Linux 7.1 for Alpha.  I I know this is a broad question with little information, but I am new to uH VMS and haven't really learned it yet. I would be happy to provide more J information if requested, if I can figure out how to get this information  from the VMS systems.v   TIA    C. N. Burnst   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 04:09:58 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")@ Subject: Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed6 Message-ID: <00A17DC7.40A74522@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  q In article <MKVG9.40230$wS.3042499@news1.west.cox.net>, "Charles N. Burns" <burnscharlesn_AT_hotm@il.com> writes: H >If this is the wrong newsgroup for questions, please let me know which  >would be more proper. >t
 >Grey screen:fJ >My college has a number of HP Entria II terminals which we are hoping to H >replace with something more advanced. We are currently evaluating some I >Jammin 125 terminals from disklessworkstations.com, which use LTSP (the -M >Linux Terminal Server Project, www.ltsp.org) as their software for managing f
 >all this.M >Using XDM, the terminals can log into the Unix and Linux systems just fine, ,J >but they get the infamous X grey screen (of death?) when they attempt to F >log into any of our three VMS systems: a Vax 4000-100 and two Alphas. >EK >I am hoping someone here may know if there exists some sort of difference  E >in the required setup of a VMS system compared to a Unix system for aK >allowing XDMCP connections. If not, can anyone suggest any common hiccups a >that may be occurring.t  K VMS systems can be running different TCP/IP packages, which means differentuK XDM support.  To answer your question we probably need to know which TCP/IP K package (Multinet, TCPware, UCX or TCP/IP Services, or something else) and TJ which version, as well as which version of the operating system and which  version of DecWindows Motif.  I Thee used to be an issue with old versions of Multinet where, unless the  K system manager edited a particular file, XDM sessions would disappear afteri= some small number of seconds, leaving the deadly gray screen.    -- Alanf  O ===============================================================================m0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025kO ===============================================================================o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:13:02 -0500i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>@ Subject: Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed/ Message-ID: <3DEC2F4B.2B9F2F3D@vl.videotron.ca>2   "Charles N. Burns" wrote:zK > I am hoping someone here may know if there exists some sort of differencegE > in the required setup of a VMS system compared to a Unix system for K > allowing XDMCP connections. If not, can anyone suggest any common hiccups  > that may be occurring.  J I was able to get my MAC (MI/X) which does XDM to start a session on a VMSK host, but I had to edit the CMD server (on VMS) configuration to add the IP 3 address of the MAC. (wildcard didn't seem to work).s  J Please note that the VMS SDM login screens do NOT, I repeat, NOT, generateK alarms or use the intrusion detection/evasion mechanism when invalid loginsi# are attempted. (TCPIP V5.3 on VAX).   J You can find the XDM server documentation in the TCPCP Services ManagementI reference manual on the www.openvms.compaq.com web site (look for the vms 7 documentation). There is a PDF version of the document.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:39:19 GMTa7 From: "Charles N. Burns" <burnscharlesn_AT_hotm@il.com> @ Subject: Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed% Message-ID: <3DED6BAD.3070805@il.com>t  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:s > In article <MKVG9.40230$wS.3042499@news1.west.cox.net>, "Charles N. Burns" <burnscharlesn_AT_hotm@il.com> writes:a > I >>If this is the wrong newsgroup for questions, please let me know which n >>would be more proper.q >> >>Grey screen:K >>My college has a number of HP Entria II terminals which we are hoping to rI >>replace with something more advanced. We are currently evaluating some aJ >>Jammin 125 terminals from disklessworkstations.com, which use LTSP (the N >>Linux Terminal Server Project, www.ltsp.org) as their software for managing  >>all this. N >>Using XDM, the terminals can log into the Unix and Linux systems just fine, K >>but they get the infamous X grey screen (of death?) when they attempt to  G >>log into any of our three VMS systems: a Vax 4000-100 and two Alphas.s >>L >>I am hoping someone here may know if there exists some sort of difference F >>in the required setup of a VMS system compared to a Unix system for L >>allowing XDMCP connections. If not, can anyone suggest any common hiccups  >>that may be occurring. >  > M > VMS systems can be running different TCP/IP packages, which means differenttM > XDM support.  To answer your question we probably need to know which TCP/IP-M > package (Multinet, TCPware, UCX or TCP/IP Services, or something else) and eL > which version, as well as which version of the operating system and which  > version of DecWindows Motif. > K > Thee used to be an issue with old versions of Multinet where, unless the rM > system manager edited a particular file, XDM sessions would disappear after ? > some small number of seconds, leaving the deadly gray screen.f   Thankyou for your reply.  I I have gathered the information requested. If it is insufficient, please o' let me know if anything else is needed:s   OpenVMS version :  7.2-1 Motif version   :  1.2-5981110 Multinet version:  4.1 Rev A  I There are two Alphas with the above software. We also have one VAX which tK uses essentially the same versions of everything with the exception of the   OS: VMS 6.2b  G I thought it worth mentioning there is one error when logging in as an   administrator:  I     %MNCHK-W-GATEUNREACH, gateway xxx.xxx.49.65 (route to xxx.xxx.47.0 ons      interface se0) not reachable  L We checked various XDMCP configuration files today and found no evidence of G anything obvious, like specifying the list of clients that can connect.r   Any help appreciated!e   C. N. Burnsn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 01:01:20 -0500l0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>@ Subject: Re: Getting an X-terminal to log into VMS - help needed/ Message-ID: <3DED9A25.3F9E9187@vl.videotron.ca>    "Charles N. Burns" wrote: H > I thought it worth mentioning there is one error when logging in as an > administrator: > K >     %MNCHK-W-GATEUNREACH, gateway xxx.xxx.49.65 (route to xxx.xxx.47.0 onv" >     interface se0) not reachable  B That seems more like a TCPIP configuration/routing problem than an XDM/Xwindows one.r   are you able to do:q  : $SET DISPLAY/CREATE/USER/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/NODE=<ip-address> $EDIT/TPU/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS  I Also, if you use a traceroute tool, can you traceroute all the way to thei
 workstation ?n  M > We checked various XDMCP configuration files today and found no evidence ofrI > anything obvious, like specifying the list of clients that can connect.g  G On the TCPIP Services (Digital/HP) stack, there is a "non XDMCP client"-J (XSERVERS.TXT)  file which contains IP adresses of workstations that don'tG have XDMCP support and the XDM service on the VMS side will initiate anrI unsolicitated login screen on all those workstations  when the service isc? started. (but it only works once, when the service is started).m   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:41:34 -0600a1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> + Subject: Re: HELP: DCL and quotation marks!,' Message-ID: <3DEC27EE.FA18B003@fsi.net>l   Roose Chua wrote:b >  > Hi folks,, > E > I've been searching for days now on how to go about with my problem E > and it seems that I have been stucked without the correct solution.. > G > What I am trying to do is to create a DCL procedure using another DCLhG > procedure. What I would like to be the final file would be like this:h >  > $ testsym = "test"1 > $ write sys$output "This is just a ''testsym'."h > $ exit > 2 > What my initial procedure that did this is like: > $ > $ open/write testfile testfile.com) > $ write testfile "$ testsym = ""test"""t1 > $ write testfile "$ This is just a ''testsym'."n > $ write testfile "$ exit"e > $ close testfile > $ exit > B > However, this does not produce the result that I wanted to have. > " > Thanks in advance for your help!   This worked for me:1  & DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ type write_test.com" $ open/write testfile testfile.com' $ write testfile "$ testsym = ""test""" H $ write testfile "$ write sys$output ""This is just a '", "'testsym'.""" $ write testfile "$ exit"f $ close testfile $ exit DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ @write_test$ DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ type testfile.com $ testsym = "test"/ $ write sys$output "This is just a ''testsym'."n $ exit DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ @testfile This is just a test. DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ .   -- g David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:27:48 -06002 From: "Stuart Johnson" <ssj152 AT charter DOT net> Subject: Re: Hobbyist CD - VAX/ Message-ID: <uunukni4jo3312@corp.supernews.com>a  J Right this minute you will have to borrow or buy one form an individual asI Montgar (the hobbyist site) is sold out of the VAX CDRom's. Of course, if.E you have access to Consolidated Distribution (CD distribution) from a L friend, or at work, it is OK to use that with the hobbyist program licenses.  3 If you don't have the URL, the hobbyist site is at: ! http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/   J New kits (version 3?) are in the works and are due "any time now". Look atK the hobbyist site at the URL http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html to- see if they are available.  
 Good luck! Stuart Johnson ssj152 AT charter Dot nett  3 "watneys" <watneys@127.0.0.1:7502> wrote in messagei news:3debd80e_2@Usenet.com...  >CB > Where can I get an OpenVMS hobbyisy CD and license for VAX?  I'm
 interestedH > in picking up an old VAX Station off ebay to play around with.  tia... >s: >  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services< > ----------------------------------------------------------9 >     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **I< > ----------------------------------------------------------' >                 http://www.usenet.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:49:58 -0600t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.E Subject: Re: How does VMS behave with 128 serial ports on Digiboards?@' Message-ID: <3DEC29E6.237FB51D@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > BobCov wrote:. > > H > > I would like to know if it is possible to get a delay of a second orG > > two on a 64 port PCI digiboard under VMS if many of the other ports ! > > are sending at the same time.r > J > Look at the specs of the serial boards. They should have a total maximum > agregate throughput. > [snip]  	 JF & Co.,   G I've seen this before, but I'm daft if I can remember what the fix was.e; Nothing exotic in previous cases, just DMB32 in a VAX 6000.l  ' *BLAST* !!! I wish I could remember....n   -- m David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 12:29:34 -0800s7 From: patricia.beck@verizonwireless.com (Patricia Beck)o- Subject: Issue with Working Set in SYS$CREPRC = Message-ID: <da59dcbc.0212031229.496e4813@posting.google.com>a  B I am trying to create a detached server process with a working set> value that is higher than the value in the user account's UAF.  E In the command procedure used to start the detached server processes,f@ when a specific type is recognized, I set the working set extentA variable of the quota_list to a value larger than in UAF. I'm notl changing the value of WS Quota.n  E This does not appear to be working, as the Working Set is exactly theeF same as before I added this code. I even tried skipping the UAF login, and I get the same results.m  B I checked Bookreader for more infto, but didn't find anything that addressed this problem.h The OS is OpenVMA Alpha 7.3.  , These are the values of my 'control' server:E                          WS      WS     WS      WS     Pages     PageeA Processname      State  Extnt    Quota  Deflt  Size     in WS     F Faults  XXX_XXX01000101  LEF    102400   68128  34064  102400   94128    215876  - These are the values of the 'changed' server:wF XXX_XXX01002101   LEF   102400   68128  34064  102400  102400    18477  5 The value for WS Extnt that I'm expecting is: 1233600   : Started the 'changed' server with these quota list values: ASTLM = 6000 BIOLM = 2000 BYTLM = 400000
 CPUTIM = 0 DIOLM = 2000
 ENQLM = 32766  FILLM = 700  JTQUOTA = 4096 PGFLQUOTA = 1050000 
 PRCLM = 20
 TQELM = 50 WSDEFAULT = 8192 WSEXTENT = 600000  WSQUOTA = 25600  Tue Dec  3 13:56:17 2002)  Created process XXX_XXX01002101        0-  ; I skip the UAF call by setting the status_flag argument to: )               status_flag |= PRC$M_NOUAF;m  
 Then call:?         return_status = SYS$CREPRC(&created_pid, &img_name_dsc,e?                                    &inp_file_dsc, &op_file_dsc,t &err_file_dsc,D                                    0, quota_list_ptr, &prc_name_dsc,9                                    4, 0, 0, status_flag);t  A This problem is perhaps quite a bit over my head. But any help orh advice would be appreciated.   Patricia   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:07:50 -05000 From: "Alan Boyles" <alan.boyles@mindspring.com>1 Subject: Re: Issue with Working Set in SYS$CREPRC / Message-ID: <uur0bpstkkb9e1@corp.supernews.com>u  	 Patricia,d  J WSextent is the number of pages that a process can GROW to if that processH pages at or above PFRATH so unless the detached process you create pagesK considerably right after process creation then you will not see the processg with that many pages. L Processes in VMS are created with WSDEF number of entries in the Working setL list and then grow and add pages due to paging of the process.  Process growL until they reach WSQUOTA as long as there are GROWLIM pages available in theL Free Page list, if a process still is paging above PFRATH then a process canI grow to WSEXTENT if there are BORROWLIM pages on the Free page list.  BTWgL the above is only valid if Automatic Working set Adjustment (AWSA) is turned on.c  K If you have an OVMS Internals and Data Structures book check out Chapter 19MF on Working set List Dynamics, it goes into REAL gory detail on process
 working sets.r   AlanD "Patricia Beck" <patricia.beck@verizonwireless.com> wrote in message7 news:da59dcbc.0212031229.496e4813@posting.google.com...eD > I am trying to create a detached server process with a working set@ > value that is higher than the value in the user account's UAF. > G > In the command procedure used to start the detached server processes,oB > when a specific type is recognized, I set the working set extentC > variable of the quota_list to a value larger than in UAF. I'm not ! > changing the value of WS Quota.  >aG > This does not appear to be working, as the Working Set is exactly therH > same as before I added this code. I even tried skipping the UAF login, > and I get the same results.p >oD > I checked Bookreader for more infto, but didn't find anything that > addressed this problem.o > The OS is OpenVMA Alpha 7.3. >t. > These are the values of my 'control' server:G >                          WS      WS     WS      WS     Pages     PageI? > Processname      State  Extnt    Quota  Deflt  Size     in WSiG > Faults  XXX_XXX01000101  LEF    102400   68128  34064  102400   94128e
 >   215876 >h/ > These are the values of the 'changed' server:uH > XXX_XXX01002101   LEF   102400   68128  34064  102400  102400    18477 >h7 > The value for WS Extnt that I'm expecting is: 1233600- >-< > Started the 'changed' server with these quota list values: > ASTLM = 6000 > BIOLM = 2000 > BYTLM = 400000 > CPUTIM = 0 > DIOLM = 2000 > ENQLM = 32766s
 > FILLM = 700F > JTQUOTA = 4096 > PGFLQUOTA = 1050000h > PRCLM = 20 > TQELM = 50 > WSDEFAULT = 8192 > WSEXTENT = 600000  > WSQUOTA = 25600  > Tue Dec  3 13:56:17 2002+ >  Created process XXX_XXX01002101        0  >u= > I skip the UAF call by setting the status_flag argument to:s+ >               status_flag |= PRC$M_NOUAF;e >s > Then call:A >         return_status = SYS$CREPRC(&created_pid, &img_name_dsc,nA >                                    &inp_file_dsc, &op_file_dsc,s > &err_file_dsc,F >                                    0, quota_list_ptr, &prc_name_dsc,; >                                    4, 0, 0, status_flag);r >eC > This problem is perhaps quite a bit over my head. But any help orn > advice would be appreciated. >p
 > Patricia   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 19:27:48 -0800 1 From: usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com (Joshua Lehrer) + Subject: Re: lock manager and blocking asts-= Message-ID: <477e0934.0212031927.47f07446@posting.google.com>J  a ohm62@hotmail.com (OHM) wrote in message news:<9d337b47.0212031029.ea1ce5b@posting.google.com>...6D > > My second question is, why does the first process ever wake fromE > > hibernation?  When the ast is delivered, it should only wake fromoH > > hibernation if I call sys$wake.  Even if I leave the body of the astI > > empty, it still wakes up from hibernation.  Shouldn't this go back in + > > to hibernation, unless I call sys$wake?i > >  > = > Out of the System Services Reference manual, for SYS$HIBER:c > H > --> An AST can interrupt the wait state caused by $HIBER if the accessD > mode at which the AST is to execute is equal to or more privilegedF > than the access mode from which the hibernate request was issued and6 > the process is enabled for ASTs at that access mode. >   ; This block explains when the interrupt can interrupt and benB delievered.  It still does not explain why my process is returningC from the call to sys$hiber(). The AST can interrupt the wait state,o@ and the AST is delivered, but that doesn't mean that the process2 control returns to the statement after the $HIBER.  = My question still stands, why does my process return from the D hibernation if my ast does not call sys$wake(0,0), and is completely empty?  
 joshua lehrern factset research systems   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:53:20 -0500t0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>+ Subject: Re: lock manager and blocking astsd/ Message-ID: <3DED9845.5F57DC73@vl.videotron.ca>t   Joshua Lehrer wrote:? > My question still stands, why does my process return from the F > hibernation if my ast does not call sys$wake(0,0), and is completely > empty?   Consider the following order:    status = sys$wake(0,0);  status = sys$hiber();-  M the hiber returns immediatly because the wake set the "wake the process" bit.>N Hiber sees the bit, so it doesn't go into hibernation because there is alreadyF an outstanding request to stay awake. Hiber then clears the bit having( "consumed" it and returns to the caller.    I So, in your code, if it is possible for the $wake to be issued before the ' $hiber, it would explain the behaviour.   K One way around this is to have a global variable that is set to 1 after the N $hiber, and set to 0 before the $hiber. While not strictly 100% foolproof, theN AST can then check to see if the process in already hibernating or not and notN bother with a $wake of the process is not hibernating (eg: global variable set to 1).   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 00:20:49 GMTo# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman).( Subject: Re: Manipulating the call stack* Message-ID: <asgtd1$5lb$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  f In article <99c3a525.0212021348.3c98b870@posting.google.com>, aaron.d.mullens@lmco.com (Aaron) writes:3 :I am trying to initialize the stack on an Alpha...d  E   This is a really bad and very non-portable idea, and -- until I can G   be convinced otherwise -- I can only recommend against this approach.:E   A few VAX programmers did attempt this (and with varying degrees ofAD   success), and commonly caused problems for the programmers portingD   the code to Alpha.  There is a reasonable potential that code withD   detailed knowledge of the stack will be non-portable to OpenVMS onB   Itanium, for instance.  It is also exceedingly easy to introduce   oddities and subtle bugs.t  D   If you want to run your own stacks, there are ways -- but I'd alsoE   look carefully at using DECthreads and its threading support.  Yes, C   creating and running private stacks is possible, but non-trivial.gF   (It took me a while to figure out how to safely mix ASTs and threadsG   within an application, and having to manage my own stacks during this <   would make for some very interesting coding requirements.)  D   For details on how OpenVMS creates the user-mode stack, please seeE   the OpenVMS source listings in and around the routine exe$procstrt.0  E   And you you wish to convince me you have good reason to create useru   stacks, well, I'm reading.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.come   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 14:24:01 -0800 1 From: charles.durfee@bassett.org (charlie durfee)oV Subject: number of fiber connections from alpha to switch and from switch to symmetrix= Message-ID: <358dbcab.0212031424.48bacf64@posting.google.com>g  D I'm looking for advice on connection to and from fibre switches.  WeF have two fiber ports on each of our two ES40 Alphas - 4 in all - goingC to two switches.  We have the same number of connections coming off-E the swithes to an EMC Symmetrix cabinet.  We've used up all our fiberuB ports on the Symm. and want to attach more servers (not VMS)to theA symm.  We're considering pulling two connections off the symm andoF think we'll still have enough redundancy - 4 from alphas to the switch and 2 from switch to symm.C Each VMS device should still have four I/O paths, determined by thewB endpoints, just a little less cable between, at least for the time@ being, until more money is available for more fiber ports.  Does9 anyone have a similar setup?  Does anyone have "gotchas"?p   ------------------------------   Date: 04 Dec 2002 01:32:40 GMT5 From: Jesper Monsted <newsspam@rootweiler.dk.invalid>zY Subject: Re: number of fiber connections from alpha to switch and from switch to symmetri @ Message-ID: <Xns92DA1A19813B5newsspamrootweilerdk@62.243.74.163>  5 charles.durfee@bassett.org (charlie durfee) wrote in  5 news:358dbcab.0212031424.48bacf64@posting.google.com:a  F > I'm looking for advice on connection to and from fibre switches.  WeH > have two fiber ports on each of our two ES40 Alphas - 4 in all - goingE > to two switches.  We have the same number of connections coming offoG > the swithes to an EMC Symmetrix cabinet.  We've used up all our fiber D > ports on the Symm. and want to attach more servers (not VMS)to theC > symm.  We're considering pulling two connections off the symm and H > think we'll still have enough redundancy - 4 from alphas to the switch > and 2 from switch to symm.E > Each VMS device should still have four I/O paths, determined by thehD > endpoints, just a little less cable between, at least for the timeB > being, until more money is available for more fiber ports.  Does; > anyone have a similar setup?  Does anyone have "gotchas"?c  K As long as each alpha has two paths, one to each controller/cluster of the r symmetrix, you should be fine.   --  & /Jesper, der blah blah uofficielt blah   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:37:23 +0100% From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de>n3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS and Tru64 binary compatibility % Message-ID: <3dec5f34$1@news.post.ch>i  H >    That depends on what compiler features you are using and what media( >    you are using to transfer the data. >hI I actually thought about an RPC mechanism. Record in/Record out should bec+ binary compatible, using the same compiler?a   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 23:46:25 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)m# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger FlippingD3 Message-ID: <55L56Z9m9eCy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <PCSdnYsEm-EhSHagXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:s > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:sNlHRbJFmlBy@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ >> In article <3DEB60A3.6DA163C3@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >> > Marty Kuhrt wrote:I >> >G >> >> Having looked at the thread and Atlant's take on it, I read it as F >> >> Atlant admitting that the poor quality of the education that theF >> >> schools are providing in US _are_ a problem created by the Left. >> > >> > I admit no such thing.b >> >8 >> > It isn't the left that's defunding public education5 >> > as rapidly as possible in favor of private (reads >> > "religious") education. >> > >>< >> Actually.... the correct term and one that is just lovely >> to use is "choice." > K > Hmmm.  You folks seem to approve of choice when you can twist the term torN > suit your objectives, but far less so when it does not (e.g., 'pro choice'). >   C 	But wait... isn't the word "choice" a great word to co-opt?  AftereA 	all, in this egalitarian age we live in it certainly wouldn't beoB 	"fair" to be limited to *only* one choice would it?  Only when it" 	comes to education?  Oh... I see.  K > In the case of public education, the problems with your 'choice' approacheL > are  1) that the 'choice' is highly dependent upon what private facilitiesI > just happen to be within reach of people dissatisfied with their public1E > schools (i.e., it promotes inequality of educational opportunity by H > geographical location, unlike a solution which *fixes* the problems in > public schools),    D 	And this presupposes that private education isn't within reach.  ByC 	counter-example we could agree.  However, in a free market society C 	if the money was there it wouldn't be much of a stretch to suppose C 	private education would become available if it wasn't.  Also, some C 	of the better teachers would make their way to the private segment ; 	to escape the poor administration (as you admit to below).   9 2) that in cases where there *are* alternatives to choosebD > those alternatives often promote a religious agenda that it is notM > appropriate for the State to fund (and furthermore may place parents in the K > awkward position of having to choose between a public school they feel iseN > sub-standard and an alternative that preaches rubbish that they and/or their! > children may find offensive),     E 	But by having choice, you wouldn't necessarily choose that route.  AdC 	charter school might be a better fit.  So what is your point?  YounE 	arguing from the extreme (i.e. private Christian education available-F 	but no charter schools?)  How often is that the case?  Any numbers orA 	evidence it is or would be a problem?  Or just another strawman?M  - > 3) that in many cases the vouchers provided N > do not cover the entire cost of alternative education, thus subsidizing onlyL > those parents who can afford to cough up the difference (i.e., a decidedly > regressive subsidy),      F 	Not at all.  In fact (from my personal observation), those that can'tK 	afford it are often fully subsidized in private elementary education on a i
 	needs basis.tG 	Often there are private moneys that are available for needy kids.  ThemE 	folks that are left out today are folks that make too much money buttJ 	don't have the money of say the Clintons or a wealthy Senator.  By havingG 	vouchers, those in the middle will be able to swing private education.m    6 > 4) that diverting public funds away from (admittedlyJ > sometimes problematic) public schools helps perpetuate their problems byK > ensuring that they will not have sufficient resources to improve, and  5)sJ > that providing a State-sponsored escape for parents who are dissatisfiedM > with the state of their local public schools removes motivation for them toaD > step up to the plate and demand that they be improved (effectivelyB > relegating the remaining students to the trash-heap of society). >   C 	That's not true.  By counter-example the programs in Milwaukee andeC 	Cleveland are successful.  Very poor inner-city schools.  Now here.@ 	is the rub.. while most conservatives are very much in favor ofF 	school choice, so are many inner city liberals as they are living theI 	effects of shoddy education (education that hasn't improved in decades)./  & 	Just how successful and at what cost?  : http://www.heartland.org/archives/education/feb00/bash.htm  S An independent study of the Cleveland voucher program found that students gained inyS the first year. However, public education establishment defenders instead cited thedS officially authorized study by Indiana University, which reported that students hadnN not gained during the first year. When Indiana University researchers recentlyM reported significant gains by the end of the second year, these findings were B greeted with silence by those who hailed the first year's report.   P But what if researchers still found no gains? If choice students do as well at aN cost of $2,500 a year as their peers do at over $7,000 a year in the Cleveland- public schools, which is the better program? b  ? 	Cheaper and better.  Hmmm... sounds like a successful program.   K > Public education in the U.S. is the result of the belief that an educatedcD > public is critical to the successful function of a democracy.  TheM > alternative to such public education is private education (i.e., abandoning M > that belief and leaving education to those who can afford it), not the kindoL > of goulash conservatives promote as 'choice' but which in fact leaves veryK > little choice at all for a very large portion of those who need help (andnL > subsidizes many who would otherwise - very appropriately - have to pay theN > freight themselves if they wished to indulge their religious fetishes and/or > upper-class fantasies).  >   C 	Ah... if it was all about fantasy and religion I suppose you would.G 	have a point.  That is why it is *very* important to have standardizedfB 	testing so you can have something to compare.  To measure whetherC 	a program is successful or not.  Otherwise, I guess you could poll ? 	for "feelings."  "Tell us, do you feel more or less educated?"   0 >   There is an excellent overview of WashingtonB >> D.C.'s chances of getting choice (following in the footsteps of= >> successful programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee) in today'sl@ >> Wall Street.. you must be a subscriber and being a subscriber >> isn't free: >>M >> http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1038779399344240073,00.html?mod=opinionh >>) >> Since the Supreme Court paved the way,  > L > Laying that asphalt right over the fundamental principals of supporting anI > educated populace and separating Church and State that have stood us ink0 > rather good stead for well over two centuries. >   C 	Church and state?  What if most of the schools are charter schools H 	and have little to do with Church?  Still gonna trot out that strawman?   >  and Washington D.C.'sC >> schools are failing left and right, (one detail from the articleuE >> shows that D.C.'s math testing shows juniors in highschool failingeC >> below national testing standards to the tune of 72%) and ClintonqD >> was the obstacle last time this was up (he vetoed Washington D.C. >> school choice bill) > J > And rightly so:  the solution is to fix the schools, not to abandon them' > (and the students remaining in them).e >   C 	How many more decades do you think it will take?  They are totallyo 	broken.  Endemically so.t  & >  .. You see there is a great deal of= >> hypocrisy here.  Chelsea went to one of the finest privatep, >> schools in D.C. as do Senator's children. > J > Bullshit.  You don't by choice leave your children in a burning buildingN > just because you don't have the water to extinguish the blaze right now, butG > that doesn't mean that you're not working to fix the problem as well.o >   D 	No.  Quite a bit of hypocrisy in fact.  Here is another point along
 	those lines:-  J http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm  F "I'm stymied and stunned oftentimes by members of the political world,O specifically some of our national leaders in my party - Kennedy, Cuomo, et al -.M who never sent their children to the public schools of Boston or New York butC& came out foursquare against vouchers."  " Ohio State Senator Patrick SweeneyN (D-23, Cleveland), testifying before an Ohio House Education Committee hearingI at HOPE Central Academy (a school created specifically to accept studentswE funded by the Cleveland Scholarship and Tuition Program), April, 1997l     >   It is certain Bush willeD >> sign it to give D.C students a fair chance at a better education. >>3 >> Here is a link to a D.C. school choice overview:o >>7 >> http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20020731-48349993.htmn >  > Doesn't work for me. >   o http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:tqKpfRauroQC:www.washtimes.com/metro/20020731-48349993.htm+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8V     > G > Unfortunately, the failure of public schools to teach the elements ofwM > critical analysis has apparently dumbed down the majority of the populationtN > sufficiently that they can no longer reason competently about this and otherH > such matters:  give them an ill-advised and half-baked 'solution' thatK > appears to meet some of their immediate concerns, and they'll vote for it.H > without bothering to understand the drawbacks even if someone tries to > present them.e >   > 	Quite a bit of puffery in that paragraph above.  I suppose usD 	poor dumb sops can be suckered by pert near anything.  (As you wax . 	poetically in a very Mark Twain like manner).   > M > Because there's excellent reason to:  the fact that some of his stances mayl4 > be questionable in no way means that they all are. >   >   Can you get any further left >> than Ted Kennedy? > N > Typical right-wing asshole approach:  if you don't have a credible argument,H > demonize the opposition - the American public's too dumb to notice the
 > difference.  >   A 	You can't get much further to the left than Ted Kennedy and manyNH 	liberals would agree to that.  Should I source it for you?  Apparently.' 	Otherwise I would be demonizing him.  =    E >> http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/oppose_10_00.htm: >>L >> Sen. Patrick Daniel Moynihan (D-NY) He favored school choice "long before > itF >> was either conservative or liberal," and, "if it prevails only as aD >> conservative cause, it will have been a great failure of American >> liberalism..."t >> >>B >> How bout that?  Seems the conservatives have "school choice" asE >> a cause and subsequently it is *another* great failure of American  >> liberalism. > M > You should note that the word 'voucher' does not appear in the above quote, M > making it unclear whether Moynihan was supporting the approach you favor orvL > simply choice *within* the public system to allow better public schools toL > blossom while inferior ones withered (something I have no problem with, as3 > it has none of the drawbacks I noted previously).o >   > 	But a quick search would either confirm or deny he also meantG 	vouchers or credits.  Why not shoot it down instead of typing a bunch e
 	of words?  J http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm  L Moynihan was co-sponsor of a bi-partisan bill in the early 1970s which wouldO have provided support for parental choice, with tax credits or tuition paymentsnJ to private schools. It almost passed. Moynihan said the reason it lost wasM because opponents distrusted educational pluralism and supported the monopoly I of the public school bureaucracies and who hid these views behind real or.B imagined constitutional questions. Educational Choice, August 1989    K > In a great many cases where liberals have supported vouchers, it has beenoJ > because their own local constituency had a major problem and the voucherN > approach appeared to offer a quick fix regardless of its problems in a wider
 > sense.    = 	Voucher problems?  Name a problem.  Trot out some supportingo 	evidence, anything.  ? 	A quick fix?  Oh I suppose the decades of poor schools finallyhF 	have those suffering the most fed up and they somehow demand a "quickE 	fix?"  How about... the system is broken and lets fix it.  Let's endfE 	around the communist blockade by offering school choice.  Isn't thatoE 	a better read?  After all, Moynihan recognized the system was brokenpB 	back in the early 70s.  30+ years of broken schools.  Those folksC 	are long suffering.  If we are to ever help the truly needy in the A 	inner cities, they have to get a better education.  Let's see ifoE 	8-15 years from now if Cleveland, Milwaukee and Washington D.C. haveiA 	a corresponding drop in crime rates.  Wouldn't that be expected?.    E >While local politicians who find themselves in such binds and can be G > excused for such actions (just as people with the means to send theirhH > children to private schools can be excused for doing so), it in no wayL > implies that those actions constitute a proper solution rather than a very6 > temporary band-aid to be used only in extreme cases. >   
 	Nonsense.  R Who said inner city schools "are absolutely terrible - they ought to be blown up";M that we can't let the kids "escape"? Keith Geiger, the NEA President who saidt! choice supporters are "pushers." t  O "It is time to admit that public education...more resembles a communist economyoL than our own market economy"? The late Al Shanker, president of the American Federation of Teachers.     F 	You see the system is broken and has been for quite some time.  WhereJ 	chaos often reigns (inner cities) the effects are most apparent.  PrivateH 	schools offer many things that contribute to their success.  Among themE 	are strict discipline, motivated staff.  As Cleveland shows, you can E 	actually spend less money and turn out a better product.  Milwaukee,nE 	Cleveland, and soon Washington D.C. will be success stories.  OthersnB 	can't or won't be far behind even if some liberals scream and TedF 	tries to shoot it down.  Again, it is very difficult to argue against 	success, isn't it?r   				Robi   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:33:13 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger FlippingC2 Message-ID: <9oacnYIsdvTc8XGgXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:55L56Z9m9eCy@eisner.encompasserve.org...x@ > In article <PCSdnYsEm-EhSHagXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...c  D > > In the case of public education, the problems with your 'choice' approachC > > are  1) that the 'choice' is highly dependent upon what privateP
 facilitiesK > > just happen to be within reach of people dissatisfied with their publicwG > > schools (i.e., it promotes inequality of educational opportunity bylJ > > geographical location, unlike a solution which *fixes* the problems in > > public schools), >cE > And this presupposes that private education isn't within reach.  ByDD > counter-example we could agree.  However, in a free market societyD > if the money was there it wouldn't be much of a stretch to suppose8 > private education would become available if it wasn't.  G In many rural and depressed urban environments, the money by definition H isn't there.  That's one of the reasons why local funding is ridiculous.  L The introduction of private institutions into the public education system byB the voucher system is as inequitable as it would be in the area ofK law-enforcement.  Giving residents of affluent enclaves in high-crime areasbF vouchers to help them hire rent-a-cops is the equivalent example:  theD quality of their protection goes up at the expense of the quality ofD protection for the ghettos (since those vouchers come out of the taxK revenues that would otherwise be spread out more evenly), exacerbating what = is typically already an already inequitable use of resources.t     Also, someD > of the better teachers would make their way to the private segment< > to escape the poor administration (as you admit to below).  K Thus contributing to yet further decline for those students who for variouse$ reasons remain in the public system.  L That's not the way to promote universal public education in fact rather than merely give it lip service.    >h; > 2) that in cases where there *are* alternatives to choose_F > > those alternatives often promote a religious agenda that it is notK > > appropriate for the State to fund (and furthermore may place parents ine the'J > > awkward position of having to choose between a public school they feel isJ > > sub-standard and an alternative that preaches rubbish that they and/or theiru! > > children may find offensive),  >xF > But by having choice, you wouldn't necessarily choose that route.  A? > charter school might be a better fit.  So what is your point?e  E My point is that choices are commonly nowhere nearly as varied as youoB suggest.  In particular, the inexpensive but academically superiorK alternatives that might if supplemented by a voucher system be within reachcL of lower-income people are very often religious-oriented, simply because theG free market usually just doesn't provide quality teaching at that low asH price unless it's supported by other considerations (e.g., either directJ support by an associated religious organization or the indirect support ofA access to people motivated by their faith in addition to economicl considerations).     YouvF > arguing from the extreme (i.e. private Christian education available7 > but no charter schools?)  How often is that the case?n  J If it's *ever* the case, that's inappropriate (and obviously it *is* oftenJ the case:  charter schools of the kind you describe are rare as hens teethL in rural areas and fill up fast in urban areas - helping a few while leaving3 the vast majority right where they were, or worse).      Any numbers orB > evidence it is or would be a problem?  Or just another strawman?  A Try not to be so full of shit, Rob:  you don't need an exhaustivee? quantitative study when the *principle* is wrong to start with.-   >-/ > > 3) that in many cases the vouchers provided*K > > do not cover the entire cost of alternative education, thus subsidizing- onlyD > > those parents who can afford to cough up the difference (i.e., a	 decidedly- > > regressive subsidy), >e >oG > Not at all.  In fact (from my personal observation), those that can'tfK > afford it are often fully subsidized in private elementary education on as > needs basis.  K Since you seem to like quantification, try providing some here.  'Often' is I not only vague but leaves the distinct impression that *some* significant L percentage of those kids *don't* have access to those subsidies:  that, onceB again, is not how you achieve universal (and equitable) education.  H > Often there are private moneys that are available for needy kids.  TheF > folks that are left out today are folks that make too much money but@ > don't have the money of say the Clintons or a wealthy Senator.  L Left out of what, Rob?  The right to get subsidized in sending their kids to7 a better school than less affluent parents are able to?l     By havingnH > vouchers, those in the middle will be able to swing private education.  G You say that as if it's in some way a desirable goal, when in fact it'srD obnoxious to the idea that a decent education should be available toI *everyone* on an equal basis (leaving private education to those with them5 wherewithal and specific motivations to seek it out).i   >t >a8 > > 4) that diverting public funds away from (admittedlyL > > sometimes problematic) public schools helps perpetuate their problems byI > > ensuring that they will not have sufficient resources to improve, ando 5)L > > that providing a State-sponsored escape for parents who are dissatisfiedL > > with the state of their local public schools removes motivation for them toF > > step up to the plate and demand that they be improved (effectivelyD > > relegating the remaining students to the trash-heap of society). > >d >'D > That's not true.  By counter-example the programs in Milwaukee and: > Cleveland are successful.  Very poor inner-city schools.  J So are there any kids *left* in those 'very poor inner-city schools'?  AndG if so how does this qualify as any kind of absolute success rather than0? triage (and triage is definitely not the same as equal access)?   
   Now hereA > is the rub.. while most conservatives are very much in favor of G > school choice, so are many inner city liberals as they are living the J > effects of shoddy education (education that hasn't improved in decades).  I Of course they are:  as I said already, you can't expect people to ignore0L their own kids even if they recognize (and it's tough to given the emotionalF levels involved) that what may be an improvement in their own personal? situation is not the best direction for the country as a whole.   H In other words, it's not reasonable to expect self-interest always to beK 'enlightened' by the needs of society as a whole.  And that's *exactly* the$H kind of thing that government is supposed to compensate for (because theF free market does such a lousy job dealing with it) rather than foster.   > ' > Just how successful and at what cost?  > < > http://www.heartland.org/archives/education/feb00/bash.htm >mK > An independent study of the Cleveland voucher program found that studentsc	 gained ina > the first year.-  D *Which* students?  And if not all of them (including those not using! vouchers), how is that equitable?o  D  However, public education establishment defenders instead cited theH > officially authorized study by Indiana University, which reported that students hadG > not gained during the first year. When Indiana University researcherst recentlyJ > reported significant gains by the end of the second year, these findings wereC > greeted with silence by those who hailed the first year's report.c   ...w  D > Ah... if it was all about fantasy and religion I suppose you would > have a point.a  L Since it's all about equality of educational opportunity, I have a perfectly good point anyway.  9   That is why it is *very* important to have standardizedoC > testing so you can have something to compare.  To measure whether D > a program is successful or not.  Otherwise, I guess you could poll@ > for "feelings."  "Tell us, do you feel more or less educated?"  E No argument there:  it's the effect that using public funds to divertgI students to the private sector has on the quality of the remaining publicrJ schools that's the problem - competition among public schools for students is fine with me.   >32 > >   There is an excellent overview of WashingtonD > >> D.C.'s chances of getting choice (following in the footsteps of? > >> successful programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee) in today'scB > >> Wall Street.. you must be a subscriber and being a subscriber > >> isn't free: > >> > >>J http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1038779399344240073,00.html?mod=opinion > >>+ > >> Since the Supreme Court paved the way,  > >oK > > Laying that asphalt right over the fundamental principals of supporting  anK > > educated populace and separating Church and State that have stood us in 2 > > rather good stead for well over two centuries. > >f >mD > Church and state?  What if most of the schools are charter schoolsI > and have little to do with Church?  Still gonna trot out that strawman?s  D It's only a strawman if voucher supporters would be happy to excludeI religious-affiliated schools from the voucher program, which I suspect is J not the case.  And of course the second reservation still applies to *any*K private school that *either* practices selective admission (i.e., skims the2K cream of the students leaving the dregs to the public system) *or* requiresoJ parents to contribute any money themselves (rather than being fully funded by the voucher amount).v  I If vouchers could be used only for schools without religious affiliation,LL which charged no more than the voucher amount, and which accepted applicantsJ purely randomly, that would remove several significant objections to theirI use, but even then there would remain the question of whether students inXJ public schools would receive equivalent access to education:  the only wayJ to ensure that is to standardize (to at least some reasonable degree) thatG education, which is difficult to do across the public/private boundary.    >  > >  and Washington D.C.'sE > >> schools are failing left and right, (one detail from the article G > >> shows that D.C.'s math testing shows juniors in highschool failing E > >> below national testing standards to the tune of 72%) and Clinton F > >> was the obstacle last time this was up (he vetoed Washington D.C. > >> school choice bill) > >-L > > And rightly so:  the solution is to fix the schools, not to abandon them) > > (and the students remaining in them).a > >  > D > How many more decades do you think it will take?  They are totally > broken.  Endemically so.  J Leaving aside the question of exactly how broken they are, to suggest that8 the problem can't be fixed is to state that the ideal ofL univerally-available public education must be abandoned (as well as to admitK that our society is so incompetent that it deserves to decline - and that'st) an excellent way to ensure that it will).i   >t( > >  .. You see there is a great deal of? > >> hypocrisy here.  Chelsea went to one of the finest privatee. > >> schools in D.C. as do Senator's children. > >-L > > Bullshit.  You don't by choice leave your children in a burning buildingL > > just because you don't have the water to extinguish the blaze right now, buteI > > that doesn't mean that you're not working to fix the problem as well.f > >T >tE > No.  Quite a bit of hypocrisy in fact.  Here is another point alongt > those lines: >iL > http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm >sH > "I'm stymied and stunned oftentimes by members of the political world,L > specifically some of our national leaders in my party - Kennedy, Cuomo, et al -K > who never sent their children to the public schools of Boston or New York  butn( > came out foursquare against vouchers." >a$ > Ohio State Senator Patrick SweeneyH > (D-23, Cleveland), testifying before an Ohio House Education Committee hearingeK > at HOPE Central Academy (a school created specifically to accept studentsjG > funded by the Cleveland Scholarship and Tuition Program), April, 1997v  G You clearly didn't understand what I said the first time, so instead ofoA repeating it I'll just suggest that you keep trying until you do.l   ...a  I > > Unfortunately, the failure of public schools to teach the elements oftD > > critical analysis has apparently dumbed down the majority of the
 populationJ > > sufficiently that they can no longer reason competently about this and otheriJ > > such matters:  give them an ill-advised and half-baked 'solution' thatJ > > appears to meet some of their immediate concerns, and they'll vote for itJ > > without bothering to understand the drawbacks even if someone tries to > > present them.d > >a >t1 > Quite a bit of puffery in that paragraph above.g  ? No:  as it indicates, you're just incapable of appreciating it.f     I suppose us7 > poor dumb sops can be suckered by pert near anything.t  G You've certainly exhibited such tendencies on many occasions here, bothwH technically and politically.  And, unfortunately, you're likely no worse than average in this respect.   
   (As you wax2/ > poetically in a very Mark Twain like manner).n  ) There are worse people to be compared to.    >g > > K > > Because there's excellent reason to:  the fact that some of his stancess mayg6 > > be questionable in no way means that they all are. > >r" > >   Can you get any further left > >> than Ted Kennedy? > >yF > > Typical right-wing asshole approach:  if you don't have a credible	 argument, J > > demonize the opposition - the American public's too dumb to notice the > > difference.h > >i >dB > You can't get much further to the left than Ted Kennedy and manyI > liberals would agree to that.  Should I source it for you?  Apparently.d& > Otherwise I would be demonizing him.  K It is the use of the characterization as an implied condemnation that makese it demonizing, Rob.u   >  >iG > >> http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/oppose_10_00.htm  > >>G > >> Sen. Patrick Daniel Moynihan (D-NY) He favored school choice "longp before > > itH > >> was either conservative or liberal," and, "if it prevails only as aF > >> conservative cause, it will have been a great failure of American > >> liberalism..."d > >> > >>D > >> How bout that?  Seems the conservatives have "school choice" asG > >> a cause and subsequently it is *another* great failure of American- > >> liberalism. > > H > > You should note that the word 'voucher' does not appear in the above quote,L > > making it unclear whether Moynihan was supporting the approach you favor orK > > simply choice *within* the public system to allow better public schools- toK > > blossom while inferior ones withered (something I have no problem with,. as5 > > it has none of the drawbacks I noted previously).i > >- >-? > But a quick search would either confirm or deny he also meantgG > vouchers or credits.  Why not shoot it down instead of typing a bunche > of words?0  D Because I was already getting tired of the effort I was putting intoF responding to this garbage (and that's happening again now).  But I doL appreciate the clarification - though it only proves that Moynihan can be asK mistaken at times as anyone else (I suspect because he was empathizing withrK those who might benefit from a band-aid rather than considering what effecte4 that band-aid would have on the problem as a whole).   >eL > http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm >aH > Moynihan was co-sponsor of a bi-partisan bill in the early 1970s which wouldtH > have provided support for parental choice, with tax credits or tuition paymentsL > to private schools. It almost passed. Moynihan said the reason it lost wasF > because opponents distrusted educational pluralism and supported the monopolyK > of the public school bureaucracies and who hid these views behind real oreD > imagined constitutional questions. Educational Choice, August 1989 >p > H > > In a great many cases where liberals have supported vouchers, it has beenL > > because their own local constituency had a major problem and the voucherJ > > approach appeared to offer a quick fix regardless of its problems in a widerB
 > > sense. >i> > Voucher problems?  Name a problem.  Trot out some supporting > evidence, anything.8  L I listed five right up at the top of my previous post:  you included them in- your response, and failed to refute even one.e   >f@ > A quick fix?  Oh I suppose the decades of poor schools finallyG > have those suffering the most fed up and they somehow demand a "quick ; > fix?"  How about... the system is broken and lets fix it.i   Agree there.     Let's endwF > around the communist blockade by offering school choice.  Isn't that > a better read?  K As long as it's within the public system, it is.  If it instead leaves kidshG in inferior public schools to rot while luckier ones go elsewhere, it'ss6 anathema to the idea of universal access to education.  6   After all, Moynihan recognized the system was brokenC > back in the early 70s.  30+ years of broken schools.  Those folks D > are long suffering.  If we are to ever help the truly needy in theB > inner cities, they have to get a better education.  Let's see ifF > 8-15 years from now if Cleveland, Milwaukee and Washington D.C. haveB > a corresponding drop in crime rates.  Wouldn't that be expected?  I Even if that occurred, that's not the point.  You could likely drop ratesSJ even farther if you took all the kids left in the public inner-city systemI after those who could escape did so and executed them - but that wouldn't 4 indicate that it was a better approach to education.   >g >aG > >While local politicians who find themselves in such binds and can be,I > > excused for such actions (just as people with the means to send their J > > children to private schools can be excused for doing so), it in no wayI > > implies that those actions constitute a proper solution rather than ae very8 > > temporary band-aid to be used only in extreme cases. > >d >< > Nonsense.o  D It's not nonsense, Rob:  you're either just an idiot or deliberately	 trolling.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 12:14:06 -06003- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)sM Subject: Railroads in Scranton (was: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John...)e3 Message-ID: <qYZHgWHm60s7@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <asim93$ro856$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <G5Ybbagovfd1@eisner.encompasserve.org>,a2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c >> In article <ash46h$qvvue$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:i >>>  dG >>> Where was that??  There has not been passenger service on any track E >>> in NEPA since before I was born (which is a lot longer ago than Io >>> wish it was!!) >> s? >> What about the Laurel Line, or doesn't an Interurban count ?o >> t >> You are a real youngster :-)t > L > I'm 52 and grew up falling asleep to the rhythm of the rails as the tracks  F The Laurel Line shut down when you were 2 years old, so we will excuse you on that one :-)w  J > were less than 50' from my house.  The only passenger service I ever sawJ > locally was when we hopped a boxcar for a quick ride to the other end of > town.i  > I remember taking the Phoebe Snow into Scranton in the 1960's.  I > The nearest serious passenger service was Harrisburg and even that diedeI > long ago (although I hear they want to revive it not only there, but upc  ? Harrisburg is currently served by four AMTRAK trains a day, theh5 Pennsylvanian (43, 44) and the Three Rivers (40, 41).n  @ Of course as the crow flies, it looks like you might be as close" to New York City as to Harrisburg.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 21:49:24 -0600a7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>o/ Subject: Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ? G Message-ID: <craigberry-307F45.21492303122002@news.directvinternet.com>o  E MMK is routinely used to build large and unruly beasts like Perl and sH Ghostscript.  It sometimes untangles complex description files that MMS C cannot, but then the reverse is also sometimes true.  MMK has some  G features MMS does not and probably never will have.  When new features iE are introduced into MMS, they usually find their way into MMK before nF long, and they will appear sooner if you add them yourself.  No doubt F there are some features, like the DECWindows interface, that probably G won't appear in MMK anytime soon.  MMK does have CMS support, though I   haven't used that feature.  @ MMK is provided with source, so if you encounter a bug you will F probably have it in your sights in the debugger before an official HP F support person would have returned your phone call had you been using H MMS.  This has happened to me a couple of times and MMK's author always : incorporated improved versions of my fixes in short order.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 21:46:46 -0600c- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n/ Subject: Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?a3 Message-ID: <m8PAQRZWcfje@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  ` In article <c4aH9.37$Ck1.2142321@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Paul A. Jacobi" <nospan@nospam.com> writes: > @ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0212010659.3a51fbe8@posting.google.com...o > F >> You're being overly paranoid -- after all, MMS is used to build VMS >> itself.  The Roadmap atE >> http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htmeF >> indicates the DECset components (of which MMS is one) are slated toG >> ship with the ISV-focused release of OpenVMS that is scheduled to goa >> out the first halfof 2003.i > ! > MMS is *NOT* used to build VMS.o  F But the same purpose is served by the fact that MMS _is_ used to buildG certain key layered products built by HP.  What is desired I presume ise# a guarantee that HP depends on MMS.'   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:59:15 -0600a7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com> / Subject: Re: Reason to use MMS instead of MMK ?uG Message-ID: <craigberry-15E6E3.22591503122002@news.directvinternet.com>r  ' In article <3DE742BD.C96E75CB@aaa.com>,((  Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:  / > Is there anything MMS can do that MMK can't ?p  H I just re-read this entire thread and noticed that no one has mentioned D the five-page appendix in the MMK documentation called "Differences H between MMK and DEC/MMS."  Most of it describes features unavailable in 9 MMS.  Get the package and read Appendix A in mmk_doc.txt.,   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Dec 2002 20:30:16 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Recursive Deletionn= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0212022030.23ef3be2@posting.google.com>e   Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<22ada89e4b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>...= > In message <b096a4ee.0211281853.7a2c56d@posting.google.com>n; >           spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote:b > b > > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message news:<1021127203925.27197I-100000@Ives.egh.com>..., > > > On 27 Nov 2002, Alan E. Feldman wrote: > > >  > > > > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KPDDC746WOA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...4 > > > > > > $ delete [...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;* > > > > > > @ > > > > > > to clear out the entire tree, including directories.
 > > > > > D > > > > > Is this behaviour "supported" or does it work "by chance"? > > > >  > > > > N > > > > I believe it is supported, and it will work as long as the protections6 > > > > allow the deletions. (On ODS-2 disks, anyway.) > > > >  > > > > Disclaimer: JMHO > > > > Alan E. Feldman  > > > M > > > Doesn't this work by repeating the delete until all files are gone from F > > > all subdirectories, thus allowing the directories to be deleted? > >  > > Yes. > > E > > > If so, you need as many ",;*"'s tacked onto the end as you havewK > > > subdirectories below the directory you are trying to delete.  I think K > > > even with ODS-2 on V7.2 and later, you can nest directories up to 255'R > > > deep.  (Section 1.2.2 of V7.3 OpenVMS Guide to Extended File Specifications) > > H > > I work with VAXes running v6.1 and 6.2, so it works for that! I knewH > > ODS-5 offers more directory levels than 8, but didn't know about theD > > ODS-2 on V7.2 or later. So in those cases, it won't always work. > M > ODS-2 has allowed 15 or 16 levels for a long time (VMS5?). The restrictionsp > were:   F Yes, I forgot about the concealed device logical name root stuff. Yep,E in that case, it won't work too well. But if you did do that, you can D use the root logical name to get the deep stuff, followed by regularD deleting for the rest. But if they're not your files, yeah, that's a  little harder, but still doable.  H > Access below level 8 required a root logical name, followed by the 9th > directory.  9 Actually, except for SET DEF, you can use file-specs likew  4     disk:[1.2.3.4.5.6.7.][8.9.10.11.12.13.14]15.dir;  < so the rooted-device logical name is not strictly necessary.  oJ > Backup only backed up the files with /IMAGE. (At some point, V6 I think,K > this changed to the 7th and 8th levels, i.e. max depth changed from 16 to  > 15). w  F AFAIK, you are allowed up to seven periods between directory brackets.  5 $ DIR [1.2.3.4.5.6.7.][1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8] ! works, e.g.   C (Adding 000000. between the first [ and the 1 fails, which is why Is" state the limit as seven periods.)  I > Selective restore from an image backup only restored one directory at au, > time (i.e. did not include subdirectories)  E What do you mean here? I think you can restore selectively as long as A the "output file-spec" doesn't exceed the seven-period limit. ButfD maybe there is a limit on what you specify for /SELECT. I'm not sure> because I've never done such operations and don't remember the- documentation well enough to comment further.   E > It seemed to be there principally so Pathworks could provide deeperdB > directories, and only if the server was specifically allowed to. > L > My version of DELTREE was written to handle this - we were having problems% > deleting user files when they left.i >  > Alan  E Well, like I said elsewhere, I use DFU to delete directory trees. ButaB here I was commenting on the DEL *.*;*,... method and I did forgetD about the deep directory structures that the root part of file-specs% allows. Thanks for pointing that out.u  E [Actually, come to think of it, I never tried DFU on "deep" directoryt' structures. Maybe that would fail too!]o  2 [My experience on this is from VMS v6.1 and v6.2.]   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:34:54 -0500:0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: SMTP Help/ Message-ID: <3DEBFC28.25543693@vl.videotron.ca>e   Don Sykes wrote: > ( > Not sure what this is telling me, but: >  > TCPIP> SHOW MX_RECORD/GATEWAY 5 > %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR, error processing route request * > -TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found  4 Try adding a single MX record to the local database.  < TCPIP> SET MX mynode /gateway=your.ip.address/preference=300  N This will populate the local MX database with a single record. My GUT tells meN that the SMTP server software barfs when it inquires the local database and itJ gets the "no information found" return code instead of "record not found".   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:57:03 GMT'( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: SMTP Help+ Message-ID: <3DEC01D7.C9090645@pacbell.net>    JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Don Sykes wrote: > >a* > > Not sure what this is telling me, but: > >a! > > TCPIP> SHOW MX_RECORD/GATEWAYb7 > > %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR, error processing route requestb, > > -TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found > 6 > Try adding a single MX record to the local database. > > > TCPIP> SET MX mynode /gateway=your.ip.address/preference=300 > P > This will populate the local MX database with a single record. My GUT tells meP > that the SMTP server software barfs when it inquires the local database and itL > gets the "no information found" return code instead of "record not found".  N Sounds logical and I did it, but what puzzles me is I haven't changed anything8 TCPIP config wise in months, and all was ok until 11-Nov --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)h
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:45:24 -0600l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u Subject: Re: SRM for multiboot' Message-ID: <3DEC28D4.BCD31789@fsi.net>o   Soterro wrote: > m > Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message news:<3DEAE6BD.C5AB5678@firstdbasource.com>...sL > > However,  Most of us running VMS don't normally run more than one OS per > C > Well when the only WYSIWYG editor available on VMS 7.3 is Mozilla F > Composer(*), I think that I need also a second choice, better suitedF > to home use. I don't feel like teaching my wife tag codes for TeX orE > dunno what, plus Mozilla on VMS has another similarity with MSWord:h > crashes a lot (alas no BSOD).n > H > (*) yes I thought about the dinosaur DECWrite but that doesn't work onD > 7.3 and the company who sells it (NOT Dec/Cpq/Hp how come?!) neverH > returned my emails regarding price quotes for the 3.1A (I found out onC > this group about its existence). That for their support for olderc > applications.s   For what it may be worth...   E Navigator Gold and successors are o.k. as WYSIWYG HTML editors, but a9D bit of pain in some respects. In my case, it wrapped the output fileD such that spaces were lost in the resulting display. I had to insert8 non-breaking spaces where I wanted them to be preserved.   -- g David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/A   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 15:37:39 -0800 ! From: soterro@yahoo.com (Soterro)  Subject: Re: SRM for multiboot= Message-ID: <d5440555.0212031537.2ac273ed@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3DEC28D4.BCD31789@fsi.net>...G > Navigator Gold and successors are o.k. as WYSIWYG HTML editors, but a    Yes, ok is the word (not great)e  E By the way, I finally got a price quotation for DECWrite for home useh  (were they reading this group?).? They ask 1k+ bucks. For home use :)) Now I wonder: Is it WORTHYv 1000$???   Se   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:35:17 -0800 0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> Subject: Re: SRM for multiboot, Message-ID: <3DECDD45.7E4ED103@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Soterro wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message& >  news:<3DEC28D4.BCD31789@fsi.net>...I > > Navigator Gold and successors are o.k. as WYSIWYG HTML editors, but ar > ! > Yes, ok is the word (not great)  > G > By the way, I finally got a price quotation for DECWrite for home useb" > (were they reading this group?).A > They ask 1k+ bucks. For home use :)) Now I wonder: Is it WORTHYw
 > 1000$??? >   B Compared to today's word processors?  Probably not.  However, WordF Perfect is available for VMS for about 1/2 that and is worth the money (IMHO).e  
 Mark Berrymani   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 11:04:31 -0800e, From: colive@technologEase.com (Chris Olive)+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorse< Message-ID: <b10654c6.0212031104.2c85501@posting.google.com>   Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> wrote in message news:<8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C26091E505@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>... 	 > Hi all,aL > We got a CD of pathworks along with other VMS-related CDs when we bought aL > DS-10. The Pathworks CD contains PowerTerm which is a terminal emulator. IN > would like to know about its licensing details. Is it an evaluation copy, orA > does come with a single-use license or unlimited-user license. - > G > Any help will be appreciated. I am not very happy with our Reflection 3 > emulator - eats up a lot of CPU time on Windows. F >  > With thanks..  > keshav  F (1) I don't know why you would consider your question "totally OT."  I" would call it completely ON Topic.  B (2) In the heyday of VMS, I always considered WRQ's Reflection the< cadillac of commercial terminal emulators, esp. with its RCL? scripting.  It's emulation abilities and configuration settings E were/are impeccable.  (I stil have access to using it.  Though I mustpD say, I always thought they over-priced their product, fine as it is, and still do over-price it.)  B (3) Kermit (as has already been mention) had/has a huge grassrootsF following and was just as powerful, if not more, as Reflection esp. inD scripting.  It's emulation too I found to be impeccable.  Kermit wasC great when file transfer protocols where still muchly used (XModem,dB YModem, ZModem, Kermit, etc.)  I've not used Kermit in a very longA time however, so I can't say anything more about it.  (Though theoE people that wrote it obviously knew what they were doing -- I see FdC 6 is here -- so I'm sure its a very fine product still.)  E (4) I use a freeware/shareware product called PuTTY.  It's VERY nice,iF emulates very well, is very configurable, and handles SSH.  If all youB are looking for is very good emulation and connection options, andE very little on the scripting/automation end of things, you can't beato/ PuTTY.  I use it for VMS connections every day:a  2 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/  E (5) With regard to Reflection and your CPU issue, you may want to seesC if someone has written an RCL script that does some sort of pollingaE and attached that RCL script to a connection template (.R?W file).  I F am working at a site now where someone wrote an RCL that polls for theC "<Telnet connection terminated>" string that comes up on cut TelnetmC connections and if it sees that, exits Reflection.  The polling washE somewhat CPU intensive.  So maybe something like this is causing youru< CPU issue?  The behind-the-scenes RCL may not be immediately apparent...   @ Since I'm here, I wouldn't mind hearing someone, maybe even FdC,- provide a tit-for-tat on Kermit versus PuTTY.    Chris  -----t Chris Oliveo chris at technologEase dot com   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 14:40:07 -0500a& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorsl1 Message-ID: <asj1an$q0m$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>   < In article <b10654c6.0212031104.2c85501@posting.google.com>,- Chris Olive <colive@technologEase.com> wrote:  : ...lD : (2) In the heyday of VMS, I always considered WRQ's Reflection the> : cadillac of commercial terminal emulators, esp. with its RCLA : scripting.  It's emulation abilities and configuration settingsaG : were/are impeccable.  (I stil have access to using it.  Though I mustsF : say, I always thought they over-priced their product, fine as it is, : and still do over-price it.) : D : (3) Kermit (as has already been mention) had/has a huge grassrootsH : following and was just as powerful, if not more, as Reflection esp. inF : scripting.  It's emulation too I found to be impeccable.  Kermit wasE : great when file transfer protocols where still muchly used (XModem,nD : YModem, ZModem, Kermit, etc.)  I've not used Kermit in a very longC : time however, so I can't say anything more about it.  (Though therG : people that wrote it obviously knew what they were doing -- I see FdC'8 : is here -- so I'm sure its a very fine product still.) : 
 I hope so!  G : (4) I use a freeware/shareware product called PuTTY.  It's VERY nice,f< : emulates very well, is very configurable, and handles SSH. :t= I agree PuTTY is nice, mainly for its simplicity, small size,dH character-set support, and lack of any need for an installation process.I But for the record, Kermit does SSH too, as well as Kerberos IV and V andyH SSL/TLS (newly supported in VMS, and more secure than SSH), plus lots ofG other things that are not within PuTTY's scope.  Plus Kermit has prettyt good tech support.   You can find a comparison here:t  3   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/winsshclients.htmle  L (Reflection was not included in this survey because it's not an SSH client.)  I In the modern world, file transfer protocols like Kermit are not entirelyiH passe.  If you already have a terminal connection (SSH, Telnet, SSL/TSL,H Rlogin) from Windows to a VMS host and you want to send a file from your= PC or get one from VMS to your PC, it's quite simple to type:e  @       kermit -g filename  <-- (to get a file from the PC to VMS)A   or: kermit -s filename  <-- (to send a file from VMS to the PC)c  C at the DCL prompt; everything else happens automatically, thanks to I advances such as "autodownload", "autoupload", automatic text/binary modenI switching, etc -- no complicated settings or contortions with Ctrl or Alt I keys needed.  Try it sometime (it works the same in VMS C-Kermit when youo2 use it as your Telnet, Rlogin, or dialout client).  B : Since I'm here, I wouldn't mind hearing someone, maybe even FdC,/ : provide a tit-for-tat on Kermit versus PuTTY.i : I See chart referenced above.  I actually like PuTTY, but it only does whattH it's advertised to do, which is about 10% of what Kermit does, so if youD need any of the other stuff (see chart), and/or you like to have oneG command and scripting language common to Windows, VMS, and Unix (not tonH mention some other operating systems rapidly fading from memory, such as, AOS/VS and VOS), you might prefer Kermit 95:  )   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.htmli  G Meanwhile, I should post a separate announcement regarding the additionhC of SSL/TLS to VMS C-Kermit, for the benefit of those who missed ther5 "by the way" announcements in this and other threads.e   - Frank    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:39:03 GMT - From: tom.horsley@att.net (Thomas A. Horsley)t+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulators # Message-ID: <usmxe4tj3.fsf@att.net>c  C >: Since I'm here, I wouldn't mind hearing someone, maybe even FdC,i0 >: provide a tit-for-tat on Kermit versus PuTTY.   I use both of them.   A The big advantage of PuTTY is that it is simpler to fool with ande@ it supports agent proxies (so when I have to go through multiple9 ssh firewalls, I can get all the keys loaded up as I go).   J The big advantage of kermit (to me) is scripting and file transfer. If youJ are ssh'ed over multiple connections (or dialed up, ssh'ed, telnetted, andK rlogined :-), kermit works to transfer files over the path you already have L established. Most of the ssh based file transfer tools either only work overF a single hop or require fantastically long commands to specify all the multi-hop connections.  D The one catch to this is that the kermit agent doesn't support proxyJ connections (hint, hint :-), so it is more trouble to get kermit connectedI over those multiple hops, but once connected, you can do more (and if yousL never logout and log back in, it isn't a big deal since you have to type all$ the keys at least once in any case). --G >>==>> The *Best* political site <URL:http://www.vote-smart.org/> >>==+cG       email: Tom.Horsley@worldnet.att.net icbm: Delray Beach, FL      |nG <URL:http://home.att.net/~Tom.Horsley> Free Software and Politics <<==+    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 22:59:14 GMTg5 From: jaltman@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Jeffrey Altman)c+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorst5 Message-ID: <asjd02$htp$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>s  # In article <usmxe4tj3.fsf@att.net>, . Thomas A. Horsley <tom.horsley@att.net> wrote: : F : The one catch to this is that the kermit agent doesn't support proxyL : connections (hint, hint :-), so it is more trouble to get kermit connectedK : over those multiple hops, but once connected, you can do more (and if yousN : never logout and log back in, it isn't a big deal since you have to type all& : the keys at least once in any case).  % Hint hint.  Someone write me a check.t  M  Jeffrey Altman * Volunteer Developer      Kermit 95 2.1 GUI available now!!!oO  The Kermit Project @ Columbia University  SSH, Secure Telnet, Secure FTP, HTTPrO  http://www.kermit-project.org/            Secured with MIT Kerberos, SRP, and s3  kermit-support@columbia.edu               OpenSSL.h   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 19:24:49 -0800o/ From: JDanSkinner@JDanSkinner.com (Dan Skinner)h+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorsc= Message-ID: <8ce22d01.0212031924.4b250eb3@posting.google.com>x  _ fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote in message news:<as3hif$jc9$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>...f# > In article <4mgOmobfJo7e@rabbit>,n: > Bradford J. Hamilton <sy18889@rabmbit.famrp.cosm> wrote: > F > : Our customers use RUMBA - RUMBA failed, in many cases, to find theK > : "surviving" node, even upond repeated connects/disconnects.  Kermit and>N > : Reflection had *no* issue connecting to the "live" machine; apprently, theI > : software is smart enough to do a subsequent DNS lookup if the "first"  > : attempt fails. > : K > Right, Kermit is able to handle host pools (multiple IP addresses for the N > same; if the first one fails, try the next, and so on).  Not just Kermit 95,J > but also C-Kermit on VMS and Unix.  This is no accident, since Kermit isH > designed for production use in a large university where such things asJ > host clusters are common, not to mention DNS SRV records (so Kermit can N > find your site's Kerberos server without having it hardwired it into on-diskA > configuration files), etc.  We not only write it, we use it :-)h > # >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/g > 	 > - Frank   ! Terminal emulators are like cars.nI Some are fast, some are smooth, some are cheap, and some are always good.rB          (Porsche)      (Mercedes)       (Fiat)              (BMW)   K95 = BMW  --  and its cheap.    RegardsDan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 21:58:46 -0600l7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>t+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulators G Message-ID: <craigberry-C43B26.21584603122002@news.directvinternet.com>d  1 In article <asj1an$q0m$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>,i(  fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote:  ! > You can find a comparison here:d > 5 >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/winsshclients.htmli > N > (Reflection was not included in this survey because it's not an SSH client.)  C Apparently Reflection has SSH support as of 10.0, though I haven't n tried that version yet:e  A http://www.wrq.com/products/reflection/win/ruov/security.html#sshl   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 16:29:01 -0500e& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)" Subject: VMS C-Kermit with SSL/TLS1 Message-ID: <asj7mt$7co$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>t  K Just after C-Kermit 8.0.206 was released, Jeff Altman (with help and advicetJ from VMS programmers and HP/Compaq engineers) got SSL/TLS security workingK in VMS C-Kermit, at least for terminal connections.  This is the first formtJ of secure authentication and strong encryption available for VMS C-Kermit,K and since it's in Kermit (as opposed to the regular Telnet client), it alsocI allows secure file transfer over the terminal session as well as scripted.J secure sessions.  The SSL/TLS version of VMS C-Kermit is not released yet,9 but it's available for download in source-code form here:r  -   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckdaily.htmlh  B Sorry, we can't put up binaries for download due to US export law.  L To build, you'll need a VMS system with a C compiler and with either OpenSSLI or Compaq SSL installed, as well as a TCP/IP package such as UCX (I'm notQI sure what will happen with other TCP packages like MultiNet and TCPware).eH Then, with the C-Kermit file unpacked into your default directory, type:     @ckvker.com "" "" "CK_SSL"  D and off you go.  Of course you'll need an SSL-capable server to makeI connections to, but you wouldn't be have read this far if you didn't have J one that you needed to get to.  The details of C-Kermit security are given here:e  .   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/security.html  . (which will need to be edited to discuss VMS).  G Without certificates, you'll be able to get encrypted, but not securelytF authenticated, connections.  The software still needs to be updated toI know where to look by default in VMS for X.509 certificates; in any case,aI you can use Kermit's SET AUTH TLS or SET AUTH SSL commands to specify the  certificate files.  K Interested parties are invited to build and try the code and comment on it.o  C As noted in other postings, it should now be relatively easy for anpG experienced VMS C programmer to adapt Kermit's FTP module to VMS, whichaI is already SSL/TLS ready.  Anyone interested in taking this on is welcomet to contact us at:      kermit-support@columbia.edui  C Ditto for C-Kermit's HTTP client (actually, someone has this almosty? completed already, with just a few stumbling blocks remaining).k   Thanks.o   - Frank    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Dec 2002 18:26:30 -0800r' From: cardenas0000@yahoo.com (Valegant)o$ Subject: what does this command mean= Message-ID: <873024fe.0212031826.6b8bce6a@posting.google.com>n   what does this command mean-          TYPE/PAGE NL:  H I know what it does, it clears the screen, but i dont know what it means   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:35:34 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>( Subject: RE: what does this command mean0 Message-ID: <01C29AFA.C8D79BB0@sulfer.icius.com>   TYPE  8 This command dumps the contents of a file to the screen.   /PAGEe  H This modifies the command so it dumps it a page at a time, and waits forG you to OK going to the next screen. It also clears the screen before ito starts each page.u   NL:h  F This is the null device, which in this particular case behaves like an empty file.b  H When you add them all up, it's blank the screen then dump nothing to it.F I suppose you could consider it abuse of the TYPE command, but I doubtG TYPE minds... I suggest you make liberal use of the HELP command, which G you'll find extremely useful once you've got used to it. You could havetG found all this in there. If you're just starting with VMS, try furklingc2 through the INSTRUCTIONS and HINTS sections first.   Shanea   -----Original Message-----< From: cardenas0000@yahoo.com [mailto:cardenas0000@yahoo.com]( Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:27 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come$ Subject: what does this command mean     what does this command mean-          TYPE/PAGE NL:  H I know what it does, it clears the screen, but i dont know what it means   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:43:33 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>h( Subject: Re: what does this command mean/ Message-ID: <uuqqun7iv5vj2b@news.supernews.com>o  4 "Valegant" <cardenas0000@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:873024fe.0212031826.6b8bce6a@posting.google.com...b > what does this command mean- >  >        TYPE/PAGE NL: >eJ > I know what it does, it clears the screen, but i dont know what it means  L Type the data from the null device and show it page by page.  It's the /PAGEF (page by page) that gets the screen cleared.  Since the null device is, empty, you wind up just clearing the screen.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:06:37 -0600r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>p( Subject: Re: what does this command mean' Message-ID: <3DED7F4D.8527F4D3@fsi.net>n   Shane Smith wrote:7 > [snip] If you're just starting with VMS, try furkling 4 > through the INSTRUCTIONS and HINTS sections first.   "furkling" ???!!!n   -- o David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 01:07:36 -0500p0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: what does this command mean/ Message-ID: <3DED9B9C.A65F7832@vl.videotron.ca>i   Shane Smith wrote: > NL:t > H > This is the null device, which in this particular case behaves like an
 > empty file.c  K I was always told it was a big bit bucket. What puzzles me though is if youiI send a whole bunch of stuff to the big bit bucket, and why won't TYPE NL:r/ bring back the stuff from that big bit bucket ?    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   D (Seriously though, such a device would have been quite interesting ,M especially prior to the appearance of the PIPE command, it would allow you toiL create a bucket, send output to it, and then read from it. (think of it as aK temporary in-memory file). That would have allowed piping capabilities thatlM would have been far more efficient because the command woudl execute from thei4 same process, with no subprocess creation overhead).   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.669 ************************ut... the system is broken and lets fix it.i   Agree there.     Let's endwF > around the communist blockade by offering school choice.  Isn't that > a better read?  K As long as it's within the public system, it is.  If it instead leaves kidshG in inferior public schools to rot while luckier ones go elsewhere, it'ss6 anathema to the idea of universal access to education.  6   After all, Moynihan recognized the system @
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