1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 05 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 672       Contents: Re: Broken SYS$SEARCH?0 Re: checksum is not valid (what is the checksum)	 CPU MODEL 
 Re: CPU MODEL 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper 3 Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper  DECsound DIVA audio file format  Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? RE: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature?! Re: Good Job in Good Environment!  INGRES/VMS to UNIX migration Just some information 6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations6 Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations- Re: Netscape 2.02 & VAX/VMS 7.3 & Motif 1.2-6 ) Older VMS programs, was SRM for multiboot  Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: Pathworks Mac vs VMS 7.3-1% Re: poor Gigabit Ethernet performance % Re: poor Gigabit Ethernet performance ' Re: Problem with monitor files playback " Re: Province code change in Canada Re: SoftPC on VMS  Re: SoftPC on VMS  Re: SoftPC on VMS  Re: SoftPC on VMS # Re: Sysgen parameter VMS8 Odd Value # Re: Sysgen parameter VMS8 Odd Value  SYSMAN running in a batch job ! Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job ! Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job ! Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job , this was the OpenVMS Pearl  I sent out today TK70 drive bug found :-( Re: TK70 drive bug found :-( Re: TK70 drive bug found :-( RE: TK70 drive bug found :-(" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators" Re: totally OT: terminal emulators# TU78 (was:TK70 drive bug found :-() ' Re: TU78 (was:TK70 drive bug found :-()  Very cool - IP over Firewire, VMS Courses in Australia - other than COMPAQ  Re: Webserver advice for VAX/VMS1 what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines? 5 Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?  Re: what does this command mean & Re: Winkler to be new marketing chief.& RE: Winkler to be new marketing chief.& Re: Winkler to be new marketing chief.6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access6 Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 06:40:20 -0800 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)  Subject: Re: Broken SYS$SEARCH? = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0212050640.76ed38ca@posting.google.com>   j Mark Jilson <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message news:<7z4H9.4964$5P3.245221@newsfeed.slurp.net>...M > The documentation doesn't make it clear but NAM$B_RSL should not be zero'd  L > within your $SEARCH loop.  There was a change in the 7.3-1 XQP where this H > field ended up being used which leads to your experience.  This 7.3-1 N > behaviour is correct but it may get changed to the prior behaviour.  Bottom < > line fix is to not modify NAM$B_RSL within a $SEARCH loop.  G Many thanks. That does make sense, but I thought I should check anyway.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 10:03:47 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: checksum is not valid (what is the checksum) 3 Message-ID: <GmwTUkeRXia1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <llLH9.1734$yq.50409@news>, "Ram Guy" <ramguy9@hotmail.com> writes: > Hi,  > K > I am trying reinstall VMS 7.2 Hobbyist License and when I come to the VMS M > License Management Utility, it is asking me for the checksum. I am not sure J > what I should enter here. Should I have recieved this info when I got my( > Hobbyist kit? I don't seem to have it.  B The Checksum is part of the License PAK for your hobbyist license.9 It is the string at the bottom that looks something like:    	2-ABCD-EFGH-JKLM-NPQR   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:38:13 +05304 From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> Subject: CPU MODELI Message-ID: <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C2609A0453@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>    Hi  J I am trying to optimize the performance of our application by compiling it with the /ARCH qualifier. ' Our development Alphaserver is an Ev67. I However our client machine where this app needs to be implemented has the   foll output when I issue sh CPU:( *Name changed*, a AlphaServer 8400 5/440E Multiprocessing is ENABLED. Streamlined synchronization image loaded. 0 Minimum multiprocessing revision levels: CPU = 1   PRIMARY CPU = 00	 CPU sets: /    Active         00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 /    Configure      00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 /    Potential      00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 /    Autostart      00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09     Failover       None  K Does this mean that this is a 10 CPU machine? Now how do I find the correct 
 EV number?   TIA  Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd.
 E9 - E12, SDF  NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305 
 U.P, INDIA   Telefon: +91-120-456 8210 (211) % e-mail: kesav_tadimeti@keaneindia.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:12:08 +0100 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>  Subject: Re: CPU MODEL+ Message-ID: <3DEF3488.8ED06695@mediasec.de>   * > *Name changed*, a AlphaServer 8400 5/440 [snip]0 > Does this mean that this is a 10 CPU machine?    Yup.  * > Now how do I find the correct EV number?  K In the first line above: the "5/440" means it is an EV5 running at 440 MHz.  That's pretty old hardware...    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 06:59:21 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dHlOfjLVsjdh@localhost>   0 On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:20:11 UTC, Atlant Schmidt $ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:   > Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > > Atlant Schmidt wrote:  > > 4 > > > Prediction: Passwords are a thing of the past;8 > > > it'll all be biometrics soon anyway. Fingerprints,9 > > > iris scans, voiceprints, signature, finger lengths, 6 > > > I don't know which will win, but it will be some > > > sort of biometrics.  > > >  > > A > > Hmmm, I've seen a few movies where fingers, eyeballs whatever F > > were actually removed from the individual or the threat of removalD > > was used to defeat biometric scans. I for one would prefer it ifB > > lowlife did not have the option of maiming me for the contents > > of my current account. > / > That was my point about the "Charlie's Angel" 1 > joke (which someone apparently took seriously). 3 > The Angel had fake-irises (in the form of contact 4 > lenses), but this wouldn't fool a real recognition1 > system as the fake irises would be unresponsive  > to changes in light level.  F Strangely enough, on the way to work on Tuesday, there was a report onF the radio about Schippol airport (Amsterdam) using Iris recognition toC automate passenger processing. You put your chip card in the slot,  E look at the scanner, if its happy your in. If not the barrier to the  D border police checkpoint opens instead. The service costs 99 Euro a 8 year. Frequent flyers find it very useful, apparently .    --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:23:46 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper/ Message-ID: <3DEEFEFB.3256DD33@vl.videotron.ca>    Dave Weatherall wrote:H > Strangely enough, on the way to work on Tuesday, there was a report onH > the radio about Schippol airport (Amsterdam) using Iris recognition to! > automate passenger processing.    < A similar system is on trial in Canada if I am not mistaken.  N On a related note, a gang was arrested in Montreal after having stolen lots ofN money. They would get hired as convenience store clerks, and would bring theirJ own modified POS terminals which captured cardholder information, and theyE were then able to clone the cards and use the captured PIN at ATMs to  widthdraw funds.   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:43:21 +0000 (UTC)6 From: jloup@gailly.OmitThisWord.net (Jean-loup Gailly)< Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper* Message-ID: <asn02p$3m3$1@home.gailly.net>   I wrote:>   VMS executables for Vax and Alpha are available from my page   http://gailly.net/security/   2 Brian Tillman replied, quoting the above sentence:  N > Could you make a self-contained VMS distribution so that one doesn't have toI > load all those other tools (make, patch, etc.) before getting something 	 > useful?   F Hmm, I don't know how to say it more clearly than what I already said:F "VMS _executables_ for Vax and Alpha are available".  An executable isF something which is already compiled, so you don't need make, patch and: so on to compile it.  You do need unzip to extract the VMS- executables, and I have added a link to unzip ; http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/info-zip/ D but most free software for VMS is already distributed in zip format.  M Make sure you get version 4 of the patch (there was a bug in unuaf version 3) 3 http://jl.gailly.net/security/john-1_6_32-vms-4.zip F Note that the VMS executables are much slower than the x86 executablesH since they are not yet optimized in assembler. Vax and Alpha asm experts$ are welcome to send me asm versions.  K You also need a dictionary, which is not provided by John. You can get many 0 wordlists from ftp://ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/wordlists/D You can start with a basic wordlist of 1 million words and John willG automatically generate variations on this. In one week on a single x86, C John can check about 100 billion (10^11) words; it is not necessary  to put that many words on disk.   
 Anamika asks:   9 > Have any passwords been actually cracked successfully ?   N Email me your password and I will tell you whether John would have guessed it.  	 Jean-loup   J PS: the last sentence was a joke, ok? The actual answer is, yes, there areJ     unfortunately very few sites where John can't crack a single password.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:10:46 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper. Message-ID: <3DEF8896.2060502@nospamn.sun.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:Z > In article <3DEF7BD9.2080303@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  > 7 >>shadow password files are the default for Solaris and 9 >>there isn't as far as I know an option to turn them off  >  > F > In that case, then, they are not "the default", they are "required".( > That sounds like a good security move.    5 you could write your own plugin authentication module 0 not using shadow passwords so in theory it isn't	 required.    Regards    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:25:09 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper+ Message-ID: <aso25k$bcf$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>    In article <3DEF7BD9.2080303@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >  >  >Bob Koehler wrote: [ >> In article <3DE5E679.2030800@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:  >>  > >>>This has been untrue for years for Solaris I cannot comment >>>on other UNIX's.  >>   >>  L >> This has been untrue on most UNIX for about a decade and a half.  If and H >> only if the admin turns it on.  Has Solaris eliminated the ability of >> the admin to turn it off? >  > 6 >shadow password files are the default for Solaris and8 >there isn't as far as I know an option to turn them off >    Since when ?  D You can always turn it off by just putting the passwords directly in /etc/passwd.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:49:42 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> < Subject: Re: Cracking OpenVMS passwords with John the Ripper$ Message-ID: <3def91c5$1@news.si.com>  G >Hmm, I don't know how to say it more clearly than what I already said: 5 >"VMS _executables_ for Vax and Alpha are available".   I But unuaf.exe is not among them and your own documentation says that it's = needed to turn SYSUAF.DAT into something john.exe can handle.  --  A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:58:29 -0500  From: RCS / RI <rcs@osfn.org> ( Subject: DECsound DIVA audio file format( Message-ID: <3DEE5E64.8E5EBF22@osfn.org>  > What is the DIVA Audio Services (*.aud file) format created byF DECsound.  I have not been able to find a description or specs for it.  F System is a VAXstation 4000/60 running VMS 5.5-2 and DECwindows/Motif.   -mikeu   --  H The Retro-Computing Society of RI, Inc.                   (401) 861-1977H 25 Eagle St Bldg 5 Ste 206                      http://www.osfn.org/rcs/H Providence RI 02908                       telnet://kronos.egr-ri.ids.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:37:37 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> ' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? , Message-ID: <3DEF1051.4030409@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Carl Perkins wrote: { > In article <01KPN1S96LBAA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes...  > }$ dir *a*,*b* > } #  > }Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]   > }   > }AB.TXT;1            AB.TXT;1  > }  > }Total of 2 files.   > }I > }Naively, I would have thought that the file would NOT be listed twice. I > }In this case, not a problem, but when producing a large list of files  I > }for further processing via overlapping wildcards, this can be a pain:  < > }one has to produce a list then get rid of the duplicates. > }  > }Bug or feature? > } / > }By the way, BACKUP seems to do this as well.  > G > It's the way it's suppsoed to work. Each wildcarded filespec is fully / > listed before the next one is even looked at.  > 
 > --- Carl  I I agree with your comment and other similar.  But just a, perhaps naive,  2 thought.  Why doesn't Phillip's listing look like:   Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]    AB.TXT;1   Total of 1 files.    Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]    AB.TXT;1   Total of 1 files.   E If I do $dir [...]*a*,*b*, I do get my above appearance, but only if  G there is a lower level directory structure, and files are found at the  E lower levels.  If the files are found at only the top level, then it  . still reverts to the listing that Phillip saw.  J If not a bug in directory, I'm inclined now to see it as an inconsistency.   Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:53:54 +0100 (MET)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? 6 Message-ID: <200212050753.IAA17436@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  > Phillip, if you make a Directory of SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSMGR], you; will see all files two times. Same question bug or feature. < Also there are some problems with ISO  9660 CD. I did try to< make directory with wildcard (e.g. DIRECTORY CD:[E*]). I did= see the directory content in an endless loop and have to stop  it with CTRLY.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:12:50 +0100 (MET)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? 6 Message-ID: <200212050812.JAA17518@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  F I do understand, what Phillip needs is a need for every systemmanager.G Sometimes you search for files which matches to more then one criteria. G Like Phillips example. you would like to get onle the files which match D the criteria once. The problem is, that there is no way to do so. IfC you use the PIPE command: PIPE DIR | SEARCH/MATCH=OR SYS$INPUT: A,B F you will see also files with an A or B within the filetype. So we needG a DIRECTORY command, which includes a search for an A or B in the name, C or which is able to display only the filename. This could be a make  OpenVMS better feature.    Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:22:04 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> ' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? ' Message-ID: <3DEF1ABC.A8AD2B76@aaa.com>   , $ dir/nohead/notrail sy*log*n.com,sy*gin.com  ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5   H $ pipe dir/nohead/notrail sy*log*n.com,sy*gin.com | sort/nodupl sys$pipe
 sys$output  ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7    $    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Rudolf Wingert wrote:  >  > Hello, > I > Sometimes you search for files which matches to more then one criteria. I > Like Phillips example. you would like to get onle the files which match C > the criteria once. The problem is, that there is no way to do so.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:33:03 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? ? Message-ID: <OF48179747.4E00F9AD-ON85256C86.004F97BB@metso.com>   E You might want to add "key=3D(pos:1,siz:255,desc)" to the sort to get H the versions into descending order, but this will also get the filespec= s F into descending order, so that part of the solution is not so obvious:H Filespecs in ascending order, versions in descending order, no duplicat= es. - (/STABLE and  /NODUPL are mutually exclusive.     @ From:  Jan-Erik S=F6derholm <aaa@aaa.com> on 12/05/2002 04:22 AM  4 Please respond to Jan-Erik S=F6derholm <aaa@aaa.com>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:   * Subject:    Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature?      , $ dir/nohead/notrail sy*log*n.com,sy*gin.com  ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5   H $ pipe dir/nohead/notrail sy*log*n.com,sy*gin.com | sort/nodupl sys$pip= e 
 sys$output  ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;5 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;6 ! SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SYLOGIN.COM;7    $    Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.    Rudolf Wingert wrote:  >  > Hello, > H > Sometimes you search for files which matches to more then one criteri= a.H > Like Phillips example. you would like to get onle the files which mat= chC > the criteria once. The problem is, that there is no way to do so.          =    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 06:49:35 -0800 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) ' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0212050649.4433b202@posting.google.com>   | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KPN1S96LBAA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>... > $ dir *a*,*b*  > ! > Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]  >  > AB.TXT;1            AB.TXT;1 >  > Bug or feature?  >   C Simply normal behaviour. I would not have thought it a weird thing,  for example UNIX does same...   / "someunix8400box".fce.unsw.EDU.AU> touch ab.txt - "someunix8400box".fce.unsw.EDU.AU> ls *a* *b*  ab.txt  ab.txt  C Don't know about Window(tm) - I'm just *so* *NOT* a Window(tm) type 0 person, so would not have a clue in that regard.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:38:02 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? 8 Message-ID: <b1puuugvc79v3asbpmgcj7d9umdjn0gec4@4ax.com>  P On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:54:40 +0530, "Vasu Kulkarni" <vasukulkarni@rediffmail.com> wrote:   > & >VASU@KRSHNA$ dir login.com, login.com > " >Directory KRSHNA$DKA0:[WORK.VASU]! >LOGIN.COM;12        LOGIN.COM;12  >Total of 2 files. >  >VASU@KRSHNA$dir a , a" >%DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found >  >I was expecting" >%DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found" >%DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  P Well, you see only one message because the message is output as a side effect ofN exiting with non-success status -- it is not output as each file specificationP is processed. The same behavior occurs with any list of files (not just the case' of repeating the same file spec twice):    $ dir a,b,c ! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:57:49 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ' Subject: RE: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEPDGCAA.tom@kednos.com>   @ At this point someone from HP might chime in and explain how the< file spec parser (perhaps) flushes state upon encountering aG delimiter (,), just a guess and to add to the bandwidth on this one :-)    >-----Original Message----- 1 >From: Patrick Young [mailto:P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU] * >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 6:50 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? >  > > >Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in @ >message news:<01KPN1S96LBAA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>... >> $ dir *a*,*b* >>  " >> Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH] >>   >> AB.TXT;1            AB.TXT;1  >>   >> Bug or feature? >>   > D >Simply normal behaviour. I would not have thought it a weird thing, >for example UNIX does same... > 0 >"someunix8400box".fce.unsw.EDU.AU> touch ab.txt. >"someunix8400box".fce.unsw.EDU.AU> ls *a* *b* >ab.txt  ab.txt  > D >Don't know about Window(tm) - I'm just *so* *NOT* a Window(tm) type1 >person, so would not have a clue in that regard.  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). B >Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 08:11:04 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)' Subject: Re: DIRECTORY: bug or feature? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0212050811.6c4f093a@posting.google.com>   e Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message news:<3DEF1051.4030409@tg.nsw.gov.au>...  > Carl Perkins wrote: } > > In article <01KPN1S96LBAA24IEW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes...  > > }$ dir *a*,*b* > > } % >  > }Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]  >  > }" >  > }AB.TXT;1            AB.TXT;1 >  > } >  > }Total of 2 files.  >  > }K > > }Naively, I would have thought that the file would NOT be listed twice. K > > }In this case, not a problem, but when producing a large list of files  K > > }for further processing via overlapping wildcards, this can be a pain:  > > > }one has to produce a list then get rid of the duplicates. > > }  > > }Bug or feature? > > } 1 > > }By the way, BACKUP seems to do this as well.  > > I > > It's the way it's suppsoed to work. Each wildcarded filespec is fully 1 > > listed before the next one is even looked at.  > >  > > --- Carl > K > I agree with your comment and other similar.  But just a, perhaps naive,  4 > thought.  Why doesn't Phillip's listing look like: > ! > Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]  > 
 > AB.TXT;1 >  > Total of 1 files.  > ! > Directory DISK:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]  > 
 > AB.TXT;1 >  > Total of 1 files.  > G > If I do $dir [...]*a*,*b*, I do get my above appearance, but only if  I > there is a lower level directory structure, and files are found at the  G > lower levels.  If the files are found at only the top level, then it  0 > still reverts to the listing that Phillip saw. > L > If not a bug in directory, I'm inclined now to see it as an inconsistency.  D DIRECTORY produces a new trailer summary line and a new header everyC time it encounters a new directory. With that interpretation, it is  very consistent.  C You can think of it as a minimalist approach. Display the directory C and list files according to the algorithm already elucidated above. C But, if DIRECTORY encounters a different directory while assembling > the list, it has no choice but to display a new header. If the> file-spec list instead yields multiple passes through the sameC directory, there is no need to produce a new header. This keeps the ' logic simple and produces good results.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 05:19:59 -0800 - From: jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) * Subject: Re: Good Job in Good Environment!= Message-ID: <9059bf6b.0212050519.33d7c7d4@posting.google.com>   E I was just curious.  Worked in Farnborough/Aldershot in England about F five years ago.  The setup was I worked here in the States and flew toD England about once a month or so for a week to do Business Analysis,A Quality Assurance, and Implementation.  I officially worked for a E sister company.  Because of the situation, I never had a permit to my 6 knowledge.  So, I wondered what was needed with the EU  e bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<asl06r$s91dg$4@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>... > > In article <9059bf6b.0212040418.c286c03@posting.google.com>,2 > 	jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) writes: > > All, > > J > > H&R Block has an OVMS Admin position available in Columbus, Ohio.  See< > > our website or Monster.  They are finally taking away my& > > responsibility as backup sysadmin. > > 4 > > It is a great environment here!  Great benefits! > 9 > Then why are you interesed in an EU Work Permit??   :-)  >  > bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:51:44 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>% Subject: INGRES/VMS to UNIX migration & Message-ID: <3DEF2FC0.7080602@Free.fr>  P I'm looking for inputs, tech info and/or war stories on a VAX/VMS INGRES to SUN Q Solaris INGRES migration. Lots of DCL and SQL, a few embedded SQL, nearly no 3rd   GL programming.    Thanks,    D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:59:43 -05005 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>  Subject: Just some information* Message-ID: <aso46k$e0n$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   Article on HP and analysts  1 http://www.fool.com/news/take/2002/take021204.htm    Article on the OpenVMS Seminar  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/12/04/2234371    Humor for the day   ; TEN BEST THINGS TO SAY IF GET CAUGHT SLEEPING AT YOUR DESK:   7 10. "They told me at the blood bank this might happen."   I 9. "This is just a 15 minute power-nap like they raved about in that time " management course you sent me to."  K 8. "Whew! Guess I left the top off the Whiteout. You probably got here just 	 in time!"   D 7. "I wasn't sleeping! I was meditating on the mission statement and envisioning a new paradigm."  4 6. "I was testing my keyboard for drool resistance."  F 5. "I was doing a highly specific Yoga exercise to relive work-related@ stress. are you discriminatory toward people who practice Yoga?"  J 4. "Darn! Why did you interrupt me? I had almost figured out a solution to our biggest problem."   " 3. "The coffee machine is broken."  1 2. "Someone must've put decaf in the wrong post."   J And the #1 best thing to say if you get caught sleeping at your desk is ..   1. "in the Lords name. Amen"   ok I made up the following one  I 11. I was just envisioning a computer that you did not have to reboot (pc  problems today)   
 Warm Regards,    Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:19:37 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations 8 Message-ID: <g46uuugmaq3hn0e1p0s3990rg1ma7qbs0r@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:45:13 -0800, "James Gessling"  <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote:  H >Well I can vouch for one company that is blocking pop and imap outgoing >ports$ >and also yahoo etc. web mail sites.  C The trouble with blocking specific ports is that end users can just A use a socksifier and an http protocol relay. There are commercial ? services available or you can use a home machine with ADSL type E connection. All the company firewall sees is http traffic, but inside ? this is tunneled anything you want, with the home or commercial A service acting as a socks relay server. The users own PC runs the  socks relay client.   F More worryingly, this also allows *incoming* connections because these1 are sent on the held open http "connect" session.   @ I have verified that even state of the art "stateful inspection"B firewalls don't seem very good at discovering and stamping on thisE type of connection. If you encrypt the traffic it is difficult to see  how they could even be made to.    >Jim > 9 >"Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message . >news:nTvx9lDj3xRO@eisner.encompasserve.org...
 >> In article E ><2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A4A2@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, 8 >"Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes: >> >> E >> >> Not really.  Many ISPs provide secure SMTP/POP access.  All the 1 >> >> firewall sees is encrypted bytes flying by.  >> >( >> > then there is blocking site access. >> > >>< >> But think about the management involved.  And if you haveE >> company-wide Internet access, are you suggesting most Fortune 500s F >> have access blocked to yahoo.com and aol.com?  I'm sure there are aF >> percentage that do, but I'd gander it is a small minority that have< >> Internet access and access is blocked to Yahoo, AOL, etc. >> >> Rob >> >    -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 13:21:20 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations 3 Message-ID: <f86C4J6UwPej@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3DEE600D.AFB13D72@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:8 > re: using routers to block access to outside services. > M > Out of curiosity, do commercial routers allow you to build filters based on C > host names (or even domain names) or do they expect IP adresses ?   F Domain names work on Cisco.  You need to configure the DNS support, of course.r  C Checkpoint supports it too.  But I've never trusted DNS informationR< enough to stick unresolved host names in my firewall config.  sP > If they are built on host names, at what point is the host name resolved to an7 > IP address ? When you build the filter ? Once a day ?:  E On my Cisco router it's when you build the filter.  You can key it ineM as a host name, but when you display it back out or look at the configurationEE file (and both amount to the same thing), you see the numeric format.t  D On Checkpoint Firewall-1 NG, I _think_ it's at rulebase install timeA and resolution is on the enforcement module.  This gives you somegD ability to have one rulebase that does different things at differentC enforcement modules.  But like I said, I don't trust it, so I don'tf use it.o   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:16:56 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulationsl0 Message-ID: <00A17FB6.C5292811@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <3DEE9E3F.7C0BC1A5@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes: >Rob Young wrote:l >> g >> In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A4A1@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:B >> >>>JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message- >> > news:3DEDB154.507D7D0@vl.videotron.ca...MM >> >>> Wouldn't such policies push some employees to get some yahoo mailboxes 	 >> > thatnK >> >>> are outside of their employer to send stock advise etc without theirg >> > emailso >> >>> beiong audited ?" >> >I >> > not if they either block access to such sites, or track activity viae >> > firewall logs.i >> > >> dJ >>         Not really.  Many ISPs provide secure SMTP/POP access.  All the6 >>         firewall sees is encrypted bytes flying by. >> o& >>                                 Rob >0C >I believe he was referring to the companies, not an ISP.  And manyyI >companies do "search" emails, http, and even "chat" sessions looking for I >specific data patterns.  I know of some who have been fired because theynD >used a hotmail-type account and sent non-favorable emails to othersI >concerning their job and the company.  They were fired for "unauthorizedd >use of company resources."e  H You mean to tell that they were not the target of an abuse of process inE the Federal Court system and drained of their life savings.  Shame...  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            d5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" k   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 08:13:29 -0600.+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulationss3 Message-ID: <iFKdRYn3UC+Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <g46uuugmaq3hn0e1p0s3990rg1ma7qbs0r@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:5 > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:45:13 -0800, "James Gessling"e > <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote: > I >>Well I can vouch for one company that is blocking pop and imap outgoing: >>ports0% >>and also yahoo etc. web mail sites.Y > E > The trouble with blocking specific ports is that end users can just7C > use a socksifier and an http protocol relay. There are commercial>A > services available or you can use a home machine with ADSL type.G > connection. All the company firewall sees is http traffic, but insideeA > this is tunneled anything you want, with the home or commercial1C > service acting as a socks relay server. The users own PC runs thee > socks relay client.  >   G 	Yes.  And what made me get in on this initially is I know a consulting B 	group that does just this.  They talk to their company's ExchangeF 	server through port 80 and POP and send encrypted mail all do long.  G 	Love to know how you would even get a clue on stopping it (not that I iA 	would suggest what they are doing is a big issue or needs to be tA 	stopped).  I suppose the answer would be to stop traffic to thatc4 	server.  That would work, for a short while anyhow.   				Robu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:48:04 -0500. From: GcE <gce@gce.com>e? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulationsm+ Message-ID: <asns3n$i47$1@bob.news.rcn.net>s  N About the only handle you have on someone using an encrypted tunnel is trafficQ analysis. That is, if someone is connected an extraordinary amount of the time tosK one site and perhaps sending an unusually large amount of traffic, it mightAO indicate something is wrong. Of course it might also mean someone is just going3I to a site with big documents or lots of downloads, and that asks for userCI info at every turn.  Whether it is normal to be getting large files is ofgN course relative to the user. A developer might be grabbing an IA64 instructionJ set reference document or three and various tools routinely. AlternativelyK someone might be loading pictures. These could of course be Landsat images, K Hubble images, and so on...or another popular class of Internet pictures of4% shall we say less cerebral delight...i ;-)y   Glenn Everhart   Rob Young wrote:b > In article <g46uuugmaq3hn0e1p0s3990rg1ma7qbs0r@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > 5 >>On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:45:13 -0800, "James Gessling"  >><jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>J >>>Well I can vouch for one company that is blocking pop and imap outgoing >>>ports& >>>and also yahoo etc. web mail sites. >>E >>The trouble with blocking specific ports is that end users can justiC >>use a socksifier and an http protocol relay. There are commercial A >>services available or you can use a home machine with ADSL typeeG >>connection. All the company firewall sees is http traffic, but inside A >>this is tunneled anything you want, with the home or commercialvC >>service acting as a socks relay server. The users own PC runs the8 >>socks relay client.  >> >  > I > 	Yes.  And what made me get in on this initially is I know a consulting D > 	group that does just this.  They talk to their company's ExchangeH > 	server through port 80 and POP and send encrypted mail all do long.  I > 	Love to know how you would even get a clue on stopping it (not that I -C > 	would suggest what they are doing is a big issue or needs to be DC > 	stopped).  I suppose the answer would be to stop traffic to thath6 > 	server.  That would work, for a short while anyhow. > 	 > 				RobT >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:21:21 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations J Message-ID: <52LH9.231591$oRV.219243@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  J "GcE" <gce@gce.com> wrote in message news:asns3n$i47$1@bob.news.rcn.net...H > About the only handle you have on someone using an encrypted tunnel is traffic K > analysis. That is, if someone is connected an extraordinary amount of thet time tooG > one site and perhaps sending an unusually large amount of traffic, itb mightcK > indicate something is wrong. Of course it might also mean someone is justm goingmK > to a site with big documents or lots of downloads, and that asks for user K > info at every turn.  Whether it is normal to be getting large files is of D > course relative to the user. A developer might be grabbing an IA64 instructionoL > set reference document or three and various tools routinely. AlternativelyE > someone might be loading pictures. These could of course be Landsats images,eJ > Hubble images, and so on...or another popular class of Internet pictures of' > shall we say less cerebral delight...Y    J Or it could be somebody inside sending all your source code or customer db out to his next employer.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:21:46 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> ? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulations0$ Message-ID: <3def8b38$1@news.si.com>  J >There was a news story tonight about some newyork banks not having properK >auditing of emails, stating that companies are supposed to keep emails fora 3W >years and not delete them.  >uK >How would companies implement such auditing ? Would they capture copies ofcK >emails at the server level before they are delivered to the user's mailboxo ?s  I With some mail clients, the message store is on a network device and thusaJ gets backed up daily.  The tapes then get retained for the specified time.A We're doing this right now as part of a government Justice Dep't.bH investigation.  People have been instructed not to delete mail.  If theyE don't want to see it in their inbox, they create a mail archive (on aNK network device) and stow the messages there.  It then gets backed up.  Even,J if they leave their messages in the Inbox, though, since the message store* is on a network device, it gets backed up. -- oA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com>A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comm= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:39:59 -0500f From: GcE <Everhart@gce.com>? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulationse+ Message-ID: <aso2lj$3ac$1@bob.news.rcn.net>u   Yes.. I Heavy outgoing traffic "should" be a better indicator than heavy incomingoO traffic. I don't really much care what people bring in (apart from worms, viriidK etc.) but when an encrypted tunnel is in use, all you can see is that a logzM of something went in or out. I suppose a smart internal thief might invest inaN a USB disk or some such, that fits into a pocket. I've noticed that relativelyH tiny disks have hit the 40GB size range already. It just gets harder and# harder to protect sensitive info...e   Glenns   John Smith wrote:yL > "GcE" <gce@gce.com> wrote in message news:asns3n$i47$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > H >>About the only handle you have on someone using an encrypted tunnel is > 	 > traffic  > K >>analysis. That is, if someone is connected an extraordinary amount of thel > 	 > time ton > G >>one site and perhaps sending an unusually large amount of traffic, ito >  > might6 > K >>indicate something is wrong. Of course it might also mean someone is justt >  > goings > K >>to a site with big documents or lots of downloads, and that asks for usersK >>info at every turn.  Whether it is normal to be getting large files is ofeD >>course relative to the user. A developer might be grabbing an IA64 > 
 > instruction  > L >>set reference document or three and various tools routinely. AlternativelyE >>someone might be loading pictures. These could of course be Landsat: > 	 > images,r > J >>Hubble images, and so on...or another popular class of Internet pictures >  > of > ' >>shall we say less cerebral delight...p >  >  > L > Or it could be somebody inside sending all your source code or customer db > out to his next employer.n >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:06:37 -0500r2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>? Subject: Re: Keeping of emails to abide by auditing regulationsa. Message-ID: <3DEF95AD.C9DC93DD@mindspring.com>  
 GcE wrote:  2 > I suppose a smart internal thief might invest inP > a USB disk or some such, that fits into a pocket. I've noticed that relativelyJ > tiny disks have hit the 40GB size range already. It just gets harder and% > harder to protect sensitive info...b  ) Is that an iPod in your pocket or are youi happy to...i  0 (Apple's iPod currently provides a 20GB FireWire+ drive cleverly disguised as an MP3 player.)m   Atlant   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:45:51 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>06 Subject: Re: Netscape 2.02 & VAX/VMS 7.3 & Motif 1.2-6$ Message-ID: <3def90dd$1@news.si.com>  - >>   Not sure who contributed this reference:e >> >>> L http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/ns_navigator_303goldj_dow >>> nload_page.html  >t> >That was me. But as I wrote "it used to be". It is no longer.   The correct link  L >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/ns_navigator_303gold_dow nload_page.htmlk  4 works just fine.  (You had an extraneous "j" in it.) --  A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.compA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comv= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent0< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 03:09:23 -0800 ! From: soterro@yahoo.com (Soterro)l2 Subject: Older VMS programs, was SRM for multiboot= Message-ID: <d5440555.0212050309.4ea56e3a@posting.google.com>t  d Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> wrote in message news:<3DECDD45.7E4ED103@Mvb.Saic.Com>...D > Compared to today's word processors?  Probably not.  However, WordH > Perfect is available for VMS for about 1/2 that and is worth the money	 > (IMHO).P  ( Wow, didn't know that, I'll look for it.D I remember WordPerfect from the times when they released 6.somethingB for DOS with that GUI that really impressed me. It had already allF that I needed from a word processor. I'm aware that I'm using not even@ 10% of the functions MSWord has, so why would I bother about theA others... I just ask for decent (must not be perfect) formatting,AC pictures placement, basic graphics and tables. But even for half of D the DECWrite price, which makes about 500$ a WP license, I still canA get a whole new computer to edit my letters. So I still think the-F pricing is oversized, because we are talking about a basic text editor? released like 10 years ago, not a realtime control program or ao database server.  = I noticed that older WP, like the DECWrite, are sold by othernE companies, looking quite obscure. Is this a trend, to give away older B products? I wonder why did Cpq and Corel give up selling them. I'mD looking at the prices, of course as for any VMS product you will payA 5-10 times the price of a let's say windows version (linux same).sA Corel could have had some good money from it with next-to-nothing-@ effort (most of the sellers don't offer moneyback, guarantees or" support on those products anyway).B The Tru64 versions are also sold by other companies, with the same price tags.a  F Probably they think that only a whacko would install a text editor andF use VMS (or Tru64) at home, and that whacko would pay anything to make that real...  
 The whacko   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:34 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingo2 Message-ID: <4K-dnVXG7fp6E3OgXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagef& news:3DED2A2A.1090307@tsoft-inc.com... > Rob Young wrote: > B > > In article <PCSdnYsEm-EhSHagXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...o  8 > >>4) that diverting public funds away from (admittedlyL > >>sometimes problematic) public schools helps perpetuate their problems byI > >>ensuring that they will not have sufficient resources to improve, ando 5)L > >>that providing a State-sponsored escape for parents who are dissatisfiedL > >>with the state of their local public schools removes motivation for them toF > >>step up to the plate and demand that they be improved (effectivelyD > >>relegating the remaining students to the trash-heap of society). >* >*E > That's a nice thought.  But parents have a small window in which toT educaterI > their children.  If their efforts will not bear fruit until after theiri kidsJ > have lost out, don't expect any to buy that 'nice thought'.  Their firstJ > priority is their kids, and they should, and must, do whatever they need to do.  H Which is exactly what I said below - and you even commented on it there.A What you seem to fail to understand is the difference between the J responsibilities of individual parents and the responsibilities of society: (and in particular government) - which I'll address below.   ...i  A > >>You don't by choice leave your children in a burning buildingtL > >>just because you don't have the water to extinguish the blaze right now, butuI > >>that doesn't mean that you're not working to fix the problem as well.e >t >h) > Here's where your arguments fall apart.n  , No, it's just where your understanding does.  )   As I wrote above, and you confirm here,* > you do what you have to do.-  6 At the individual level, as I said (twice, now) above.  1   Just who gets to use the escape, and who has to H > stay in the burning building?  Women and children first?  At least the	 children.o >gK > Makes no sense Bill.  If the building is burning, how can you consign any, to > stay.e  K Which is exactly my point:  the voucher system *does* consign those to stayeK who can't find a better alternative that's nomore expensive than the amountOL covered by the voucher, while *subsidizing* the escape of the more affluent.L That makes the voucher approach unacceptable on a societal level (because itK actually *increases* the disparity between the most poor and everyone else)oI even though it may be very attractive to those specific parents who could0 take advantage of it..  5 >  Why, so the fire department will put out the fire?   H In part, so that more people will be motivated to ensure that either theD fire does not occur or that the department has adequate resources toJ extinguish it immediately - i.e., to keep up pressure by as many people as< possible on goverment to ensure that its schools are decent.     How many casualtiesS > are 'acceptable'?l  J None.  Which means that it's not acceptable to choose a solution that justE reduces their number somewhat while worsening the plight of those who L remain:  an *equitable* solution should be found, and giving a percentage ofK those affected (and often those who otherwise might be most instrumental in,J demanding a proper solution) an inequitable escape hatch is not the way to& increase the chances that one will be.   ...a  J > Perhaps one solution is to REQUIRE the children of all elected officials to > attend public schools.  I I like that idea, though it might have the unintended consequence of evenSJ further discouraging good people from seeking public office (since as I'veL been saying one's *personal* decisions about one's own children won't always, reflect what's best for society as a whole).  5   Then they might see some urgency in fixing what hasY7 > become quite possibly the biggest failure of the USA.O  # I wish more people understood that.    ...o  L > I'm not sure that vouchers is the answer.  I think that it has a chance of > destroying public education.  5 See?  You *do* understand the problem, at some level.    > F > What is needed is to allow public education to get back to what it's
 suppose to+ > do.  Educate!  Right now it's a day-care.,  I Certainly in some places/situations, though it's not entirely fair to tarOJ all of it with the same brush, nor to assume (I'm not saying that you are,= but just in case...) that it's because most teachers in those"F places/situations wouldn't be doing more if they had the resources and support to.f  #   When we get to college, sooner or E > later we run into an instructor who says, "I'm going to present thed	 material.s4 > It's up to you whether you learn, or even attend." >N9 > Want to get dedicated teachers?  Give them avid pupils.h > ? > Want to get teachers who don't care?  Make them baby-sitters.k >F > Make public school optional.  E Unfortunately, many parents can't be relied upon to instill a love of?I learning in their children.  I don't think that those children should pay]C the price for that, which means that mandatory education for *some*GJ reasonable period of time (where they'll at least have the chance to learn% such love on their own) is necessary.I  /   Those who want to learn, go.  Those who won'tsI > learn, stay away.  Put the responsibility back where it belongs, on theOG > individual.  Or, in this case, on the parent to stress education, andI	 learning,  > and striving to excel.  H See above:  that would tend to leave out of schools many of the kids whoB could benefit most from obtaining another perspective on learning.  -   Bring back some discipline.  Bring back the L > BOARD-OF-EDUCATION.  Ok, now you can start in on me, but you cannot change this, J > when I ws in school, things that are happening today just didn't happen.   Same for me.     Go5 > ahead and argue against what worked, and succeeded.u  H It worked mostly because the external world was a *very* different placeH then than it is now (even leaving aside urban society, just consider theK content of television then and now).  There weren't many traffic fatalitiestI before the invention of the automobile either, but that doesn't mean thatr: the horse and buggy were a better means of transportation.  I Discipline *is* essential, though that doesn't imply corporal punishment,xJ just resources whom teachers can call on to extricate persistent offendersD quickly and have them dealt with outside the classroom (and the veryH presence of these resources would eliminate a great deal of the need for them).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:41:43 -0500t From: gce <ge@gce.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping + Message-ID: <asmasv$m4r$1@bob.news.rcn.net>g   Rob Young wrote:a > In article <PCSdnYsEm-EhSHagXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:R > : >>"Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ >>news:sNlHRbJFmlBy@eisner.encompasserve.org...l >>@ >>>In article <3DEB60A3.6DA163C3@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt >>' >><atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:L >> >>>>Marty Kuhrt wrote: >>>> >>>>F >>>>>Having looked at the thread and Atlant's take on it, I read it asE >>>>>Atlant admitting that the poor quality of the education that thetE >>>>>schools are providing in US _are_ a problem created by the Left.u >>>> >>>>I admit no such thing. >>>>7 >>>>It isn't the left that's defunding public education,4 >>>>as rapidly as possible in favor of private (read >>>>"religious") education.- >>>> >>>-< >>>Actually.... the correct term and one that is just lovely >>>to use is "choice." >>K >>Hmmm.  You folks seem to approve of choice when you can twist the term tonN >>suit your objectives, but far less so when it does not (e.g., 'pro choice'). >> >  > E > 	But wait... isn't the word "choice" a great word to co-opt?  AfterTC > 	all, in this egalitarian age we live in it certainly wouldn't be D > 	"fair" to be limited to *only* one choice would it?  Only when it$ > 	comes to education?  Oh... I see. >  > K >>In the case of public education, the problems with your 'choice' approacheL >>are  1) that the 'choice' is highly dependent upon what private facilitiesI >>just happen to be within reach of people dissatisfied with their public E >>schools (i.e., it promotes inequality of educational opportunity bymH >>geographical location, unlike a solution which *fixes* the problems in >>public schools),   >  > F > 	And this presupposes that private education isn't within reach.  ByE > 	counter-example we could agree.  However, in a free market society E > 	if the money was there it wouldn't be much of a stretch to supposeSE > 	private education would become available if it wasn't.  Also, somerE > 	of the better teachers would make their way to the private segmentc= > 	to escape the poor administration (as you admit to below).x > ; > 2) that in cases where there *are* alternatives to choose* > D >>those alternatives often promote a religious agenda that it is notM >>appropriate for the State to fund (and furthermore may place parents in thesK >>awkward position of having to choose between a public school they feel iseN >>sub-standard and an alternative that preaches rubbish that they and/or their! >>children may find offensive),  w >  > G > 	But by having choice, you wouldn't necessarily choose that route.  A E > 	charter school might be a better fit.  So what is your point?  You G > 	arguing from the extreme (i.e. private Christian education availableuH > 	but no charter schools?)  How often is that the case?  Any numbers orC > 	evidence it is or would be a problem?  Or just another strawman?n >  > - >>3) that in many cases the vouchers providedsN >>do not cover the entire cost of alternative education, thus subsidizing onlyL >>those parents who can afford to cough up the difference (i.e., a decidedly >>regressive subsidy),   >  >  > H > 	Not at all.  In fact (from my personal observation), those that can'tM > 	afford it are often fully subsidized in private elementary education on a T > 	needs basis. I > 	Often there are private moneys that are available for needy kids.  ThesG > 	folks that are left out today are folks that make too much money butpL > 	don't have the money of say the Clintons or a wealthy Senator.  By havingI > 	vouchers, those in the middle will be able to swing private education.  >  >  > 6 >>4) that diverting public funds away from (admittedlyJ >>sometimes problematic) public schools helps perpetuate their problems byK >>ensuring that they will not have sufficient resources to improve, and  5)tJ >>that providing a State-sponsored escape for parents who are dissatisfiedM >>with the state of their local public schools removes motivation for them to D >>step up to the plate and demand that they be improved (effectivelyB >>relegating the remaining students to the trash-heap of society). >> >  > E > 	That's not true.  By counter-example the programs in Milwaukee and E > 	Cleveland are successful.  Very poor inner-city schools.  Now here B > 	is the rub.. while most conservatives are very much in favor ofH > 	school choice, so are many inner city liberals as they are living theK > 	effects of shoddy education (education that hasn't improved in decades).y > ( > 	Just how successful and at what cost? > < > http://www.heartland.org/archives/education/feb00/bash.htm > U > An independent study of the Cleveland voucher program found that students gained in U > the first year. However, public education establishment defenders instead cited thesU > officially authorized study by Indiana University, which reported that students hadtP > not gained during the first year. When Indiana University researchers recentlyO > reported significant gains by the end of the second year, these findings were D > greeted with silence by those who hailed the first year's report.  > R > But what if researchers still found no gains? If choice students do as well at aP > cost of $2,500 a year as their peers do at over $7,000 a year in the Cleveland/ > public schools, which is the better program? e > A > 	Cheaper and better.  Hmmm... sounds like a successful program.p >  > K >>Public education in the U.S. is the result of the belief that an educatedwD >>public is critical to the successful function of a democracy.  TheM >>alternative to such public education is private education (i.e., abandoninghM >>that belief and leaving education to those who can afford it), not the kindiL >>of goulash conservatives promote as 'choice' but which in fact leaves veryK >>little choice at all for a very large portion of those who need help (andgL >>subsidizes many who would otherwise - very appropriately - have to pay theN >>freight themselves if they wished to indulge their religious fetishes and/or >>upper-class fantasies).e >> >  > E > 	Ah... if it was all about fantasy and religion I suppose you wouldiI > 	have a point.  That is why it is *very* important to have standardizedsD > 	testing so you can have something to compare.  To measure whetherE > 	a program is successful or not.  Otherwise, I guess you could polliA > 	for "feelings."  "Tell us, do you feel more or less educated?"t >  > 0 >>  There is an excellent overview of Washington >>B >>>D.C.'s chances of getting choice (following in the footsteps of= >>>successful programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee) in today'sQ@ >>>Wall Street.. you must be a subscriber and being a subscriber >>>isn't free: >>>-M >>>http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1038779399344240073,00.html?mod=opinioni >>>o) >>>Since the Supreme Court paved the way,  >>L >>Laying that asphalt right over the fundamental principals of supporting anI >>educated populace and separating Church and State that have stood us inn0 >>rather good stead for well over two centuries. >> >  > E > 	Church and state?  What if most of the schools are charter schoolsNJ > 	and have little to do with Church?  Still gonna trot out that strawman? >  >  >> and Washington D.C.'s >>C >>>schools are failing left and right, (one detail from the articlemE >>>shows that D.C.'s math testing shows juniors in highschool failing C >>>below national testing standards to the tune of 72%) and Clinton D >>>was the obstacle last time this was up (he vetoed Washington D.C. >>>school choice bill) >>J >>And rightly so:  the solution is to fix the schools, not to abandon them' >>(and the students remaining in them).a >> >  > E > 	How many more decades do you think it will take?  They are totally  > 	broken.  Endemically so.  >  > & >> .. You see there is a great deal of >>= >>>hypocrisy here.  Chelsea went to one of the finest private., >>>schools in D.C. as do Senator's children. >>J >>Bullshit.  You don't by choice leave your children in a burning buildingN >>just because you don't have the water to extinguish the blaze right now, butG >>that doesn't mean that you're not working to fix the problem as well.- >> >  > F > 	No.  Quite a bit of hypocrisy in fact.  Here is another point along > 	those lines:t > L > http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm > H > "I'm stymied and stunned oftentimes by members of the political world,Q > specifically some of our national leaders in my party - Kennedy, Cuomo, et al -oO > who never sent their children to the public schools of Boston or New York buti( > came out foursquare against vouchers." > $ > Ohio State Senator Patrick SweeneyP > (D-23, Cleveland), testifying before an Ohio House Education Committee hearingK > at HOPE Central Academy (a school created specifically to accept students G > funded by the Cleveland Scholarship and Tuition Program), April, 1997  >  >  >  >>  It is certain Bush willc >>D >>>sign it to give D.C students a fair chance at a better education. >>>t3 >>>Here is a link to a D.C. school choice overview:n >>>o7 >>>http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20020731-48349993.htm" >> >>Doesn't work for me. >> >  > q > http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:tqKpfRauroQC:www.washtimes.com/metro/20020731-48349993.htm+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8  >  >  > G >>Unfortunately, the failure of public schools to teach the elements ofeM >>critical analysis has apparently dumbed down the majority of the populationgN >>sufficiently that they can no longer reason competently about this and otherH >>such matters:  give them an ill-advised and half-baked 'solution' thatK >>appears to meet some of their immediate concerns, and they'll vote for itSH >>without bothering to understand the drawbacks even if someone tries to >>present them.  >> >  > @ > 	Quite a bit of puffery in that paragraph above.  I suppose usF > 	poor dumb sops can be suckered by pert near anything.  (As you wax 0 > 	poetically in a very Mark Twain like manner). >  > M >>Because there's excellent reason to:  the fact that some of his stances mayt4 >>be questionable in no way means that they all are. >>  >>  Can you get any further left >> >>>than Ted Kennedy? >>N >>Typical right-wing asshole approach:  if you don't have a credible argument,H >>demonize the opposition - the American public's too dumb to notice the
 >>difference.y >> >  > C > 	You can't get much further to the left than Ted Kennedy and manynJ > 	liberals would agree to that.  Should I source it for you?  Apparently.) > 	Otherwise I would be demonizing him.  o >  >  > E >>>http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/oppose_10_00.html >>>oL >>>Sen. Patrick Daniel Moynihan (D-NY) He favored school choice "long before >> >>it >>F >>>was either conservative or liberal," and, "if it prevails only as aD >>>conservative cause, it will have been a great failure of American >>>liberalism..."R >>>u >>> B >>>How bout that?  Seems the conservatives have "school choice" asE >>>a cause and subsequently it is *another* great failure of American  >>>liberalism. >>M >>You should note that the word 'voucher' does not appear in the above quote,eM >>making it unclear whether Moynihan was supporting the approach you favor oroL >>simply choice *within* the public system to allow better public schools toL >>blossom while inferior ones withered (something I have no problem with, as3 >>it has none of the drawbacks I noted previously).t >> >  > @ > 	But a quick search would either confirm or deny he also meantI > 	vouchers or credits.  Why not shoot it down instead of typing a bunch t > 	of words? > L > http://www.schoolreport.com/schoolreport/articles/voicesforchoice_5_00.htm > N > Moynihan was co-sponsor of a bi-partisan bill in the early 1970s which wouldQ > have provided support for parental choice, with tax credits or tuition payments.L > to private schools. It almost passed. Moynihan said the reason it lost wasO > because opponents distrusted educational pluralism and supported the monopoly7K > of the public school bureaucracies and who hid these views behind real ormD > imagined constitutional questions. Educational Choice, August 1989 >  >  > K >>In a great many cases where liberals have supported vouchers, it has been>J >>because their own local constituency had a major problem and the voucherN >>approach appeared to offer a quick fix regardless of its problems in a wider
 >>sense.   >  > ? > 	Voucher problems?  Name a problem.  Trot out some supporting  > 	evidence, anything. > A > 	A quick fix?  Oh I suppose the decades of poor schools finallyrH > 	have those suffering the most fed up and they somehow demand a "quickG > 	fix?"  How about... the system is broken and lets fix it.  Let's end G > 	around the communist blockade by offering school choice.  Isn't thatPG > 	a better read?  After all, Moynihan recognized the system was brokennD > 	back in the early 70s.  30+ years of broken schools.  Those folksE > 	are long suffering.  If we are to ever help the truly needy in thelC > 	inner cities, they have to get a better education.  Let's see if G > 	8-15 years from now if Cleveland, Milwaukee and Washington D.C. havelC > 	a corresponding drop in crime rates.  Wouldn't that be expected?  >  >  > F >>While local politicians who find themselves in such binds and can beG >>excused for such actions (just as people with the means to send theirdH >>children to private schools can be excused for doing so), it in no wayL >>implies that those actions constitute a proper solution rather than a very6 >>temporary band-aid to be used only in extreme cases. >> >  >  > 	Nonsense. > T > Who said inner city schools "are absolutely terrible - they ought to be blown up";O > that we can't let the kids "escape"? Keith Geiger, the NEA President who said # > choice supporters are "pushers." i > Q > "It is time to admit that public education...more resembles a communist economyoN > than our own market economy"? The late Al Shanker, president of the American > Federation of Teachers.  >  > H > 	You see the system is broken and has been for quite some time.  WhereL > 	chaos often reigns (inner cities) the effects are most apparent.  PrivateJ > 	schools offer many things that contribute to their success.  Among themG > 	are strict discipline, motivated staff.  As Cleveland shows, you canmG > 	actually spend less money and turn out a better product.  Milwaukee, G > 	Cleveland, and soon Washington D.C. will be success stories.  OthersnD > 	can't or won't be far behind even if some liberals scream and TedH > 	tries to shoot it down.  Again, it is very difficult to argue against > 	success, isn't it?  > 	 > 				Rob  > N Compare modern textbooks with what you may have had also. Intellectual pabulumN and (in one case I saw a few days back) left wing propaganda...or should I sayN "politically correct" propaganda, at the expense of historical accuracy. ThankP God my history teachers were sticklers for getting the details right and getting$ them to us so we could recognize it.  R It is interesting when we hear of separation of church and state, to consider thatO the Constitution was not designed to be hostile to religion, just wanted to endnP the practice (which existed under the Articles) of declaring one official churchQ and making everyone go there. There is an interesting pattern of church placement O along the state line hereabouts that dates from that time; people from MarylandhS worshipped in Delaware when their churches got closed there. It is also interesting,Q and true that public schooling got its start in significant measure from a desireaK to inculcate Christian moral values (or mainly-Christian ones) in children.aP The "separation of church and state" rhetoric came from the Warran court and wasP not a long term principle of the US polity. Rather it has been something enduredV for a few decades now. Does the greater incidence of violence in schools have anythingP to do with it? Hard to tell. Still, the charter schools and religious-affiliatedO schools (both of which are plentiful, even in the boondocks parts of this statevQ and surrounding ones) seem to do a predictably better job on the whole than theirjO public counterparts. Also, note that the religious schools may have chapels, orlR may even (shudder!) have a course or two in religion. (I recall having a few such,T and they were among the more interesting and challenging ones I had in high school.)V They do not require one to worship in any particular way (or really to worship at all;. just not to disturb others who might want to).  T Whatever the principles may be claimed for public schools now, it is evident that inQ many areas they have failed. This should be regarded IMO as experimental evidence Q the principles in question have something wrong with them. Eventually I hope thisa< will be recognized by all. It is recognized by most already.  R Really, the idea of letting parents have money to pay for education and of lettingM them pick where and how, is about respect. Doing this shows respect for theirlS judgment and intelligence, and they will rise to the occasion most of the time wheniU called upon to use these. Insisting on making everything a priori fair and equal, andfO on controlling it all centrally to be sure of this, shows no respect for anyoneoT and is incredibly arrogant and insulting. The parents in cities get to feel insulted- like this and have for years, don't doubt it.K  R I suspect some of the continuing support for public schools reflects the fact thatT most folks graduated from a Foobar High somewhere and don't want to do hurt to theirS alma mater. But in many areas that alma mater has been hijacked and is not the samenS place. As realization of this grows, support for continuing blind support vanishes.o  P There is of course anti-intellectualism on the right as well as on the left, theS confusion of "creation theory" (which might be called "creation hypothesis" if theyoV wanted to use terms scientifically...a theory has to hang together and predict things,T which a hypothesis has not done, or not done yet in the case of one that will becomeS a theory) being one. That is undesirable, but ultimately we should respect parents'nT rights to put kids where they think the kids get the best education. Those of us whoP believe in a religion will realize (or have already) that a religion that cannotR stand hearing scientific truth has things wrong with it. Teaching such a system toT kids just ensures that most of them will lose faith when they realize their image ofQ God resembles that of the Wizard of Oz. Teach them more soundly and this does not-O happen. But parents tend to realize that, or get told by their parents who havem/ been round the block a few times and noticed...e      ) Rob's quotes are wonderful things though.  Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:33:21 -0800' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>a' Subject: Re: Pathworks Mac vs VMS 7.3-1t8 Message-ID: <20021205083321.25b326b9.mathog@caltech.edu>   On 4 Dec 2002 10:49:38 -0800, seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion) wrote:  7 > We are seeing CA Watchdog go into a loop under 7.3-1.eE > CA and HP are looking at PTHREADS and ADA RTL as possible culprits.  > @ > Do you (or anyone) recall if ADA was used in this file server? >    Don't know.e  8 However this does raise the interesting possibility that> the PW/Mac failure on 7.3-1 is caused by an actual bug in that< version of the OS rather than a new version incompatibility.A Or to put it another way, if PW/Mac didn't do anything beyond thet< API specs perhaps it really should continue to work with all future versions of VMS?  n  F Well, on VAX/Alpha anyway.  Since PW/Mac is a dead product it probablyF won't ever make it onto the Itanium.  Not that I expect VMS to survive3 that transition either, no matter what HP tells us.i   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:38:19 +0100 (MET)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>. Subject: Re: poor Gigabit Ethernet performance6 Message-ID: <200212050738.IAA17386@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Matt Muggeridge wrotes:i   >>>e: 1) Tune your application - increase buffer size to maximumF    For ttcp, use "-l 65535 -b 1048576" (For peak performance with manyB    connections, you need to use QIO AST - socket select() does notE    scale well - though ttcp is a single connection so doesn't matter)e <<<t  @ From my last letter you know, that I did test Gigabit to GigabitC performance with a midian result (37MB/s). Now I did test a Gigabitk@ to Fast connection with this values. The result is bad: the testA hangs. It does never end. In case of this, I think that it is notvD a good idea to set this values permanent with the sysconfig utility.G Does anybody know, what the problem is? The best performance (11.5MB/s)h8 for this connection I did get with the following values: 	"-l 32768 -b 32768"   TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:49:02 +0100 (MET)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>. Subject: Re: poor Gigabit Ethernet performance6 Message-ID: <200212050749.IAA17419@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Rick Jones wrotes:   >>>hB From what source did you get a 20% figure? Or have I forgotten how2 to interpret ttcp output (a distinct possibility). <<<   B Sorry, I did forget to write, that I did use MONITOR SYSTEM to see the CPU usage.  > Yesterday, I was a the www.netperf.org site to get netperf for= Sun solaris and OpenVMS. For Solaris I did found (I hope so),c? but not for OpenVMS. Is there any chance to build a version foru? OpenVMS, or use netperf any specials? Is there any installationt= guide for netperf (UNIX and Windows)? I did not found them. I ? am not fit in UNIX or Windows. So I do need a clear instructione to install the netperf tool.   TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:46:46 +01007 From: "Wojciech Czaplinski" <mgr_sianko@poczta.onet.pl>:0 Subject: Re: Problem with monitor files playback& Message-ID: <asnhnm$l5h$1@news.tpi.pl>  6 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message:# news:3DEDC7D9.41C26B1E@127.0.0.1...k > Wojciech Czaplinski wrote: > >k > > Hello All,I > > The problem looks like this: I monitored  Alpha GS160 box running VMSt 7.3,K > > output was directed to the files. Now I need to playback those files on ? > > Alpha 1200 running the same OS version. After command like:d > >2+ > > $ monitor system/all  /input=FILE.DAT;3M > >a > > I get following error: > >-< > > %MONITOR-E-PREMEOF, premature end-of-file on /INPUT file >BE > Check you are using /BEGINNING and /ENDING because *todays* date iscD > assumed, I guess the file you're looking at is a date in the past.   OK, what should I do then?   greets - Wojtekn   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:49:55 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m+ Subject: Re: Province code change in Canada G Message-ID: <nIJH9.13554$Q71.4730@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>q  ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in messagek( news:3DECBAFF.B8454C8D@mindspring.com... >"> > I've thought for quite some time that the New England states> > would be far more at home in the Canadian confederation than> > we are in the United States. (Well, excepting New Hampshire,. > which wants to just be a world unto itself.)  L The War of 1812 was fomented by politicians in Washington to try to keep theK New England states from seceding the union and rejoining Canada, as at that2C time in history, many in the New England states were discussing therL possibility of the states joining Canada, feeling that Washington was giving them a bum deal.  L However there were some other reasons as well in the US looking for a fight,J principally that the British were stopping and boarding US ships at sea inI search of deserters from the Royal Navy, and that Britain was enforcing ahG blockade of French ports during its bitter struggle with France at thateG time. The US wasn't too keen on having its trade with France suffer. SoiK Britain was seen as the bully of the day...insofar as the US was concerned.a@ (aside: how the tables have turned over the past two centuries).  D Many politicos in DC thought that the best way to deal with both theK domestic New England issue and the trade issue would be to start a war withpE Britain,  capture Canada and make it part of the US. In essence, give J Britain a war on two fronts, Europe and North America, at a time when most5 of its fighting resources were bogged down in Europe.a  J So the US marched on Canada, from Lake Michigan to Quebec City, in variousJ battles along the frontier. In all cases along the frontier proper, the USL had its butt whipped by the Canadians, with the exception of the capture andI burning of the town of York, now called Toronto. The British got even forlF that later in the war by capturing Washington DC, and eating PresidentJ Madison's dinner that was set out on the White House dining room table, soI quick was the capture of DC. For a little after dinner entertainment, the-I British torched the White House (which was actually painted gray in those  days).  I During the battles along the border, the Canadians had most of the nativeeK Americans (Indians) on their side due to brutal and repressive treatment ofdF the Indians at the hands of the Americans. In terms of territory underI effective control by one nation or the other, the US never controlled any-L Canadian territory other than York for as short while, whereas the CanadiansD captured and held Detroit and strategic Mackinac Island, what is nowD Washington State to the mouth of the Columbia River, and effectively& neutralized much of Ohio and Michigan.  F At later battles, Lake Champlain, and several others, the British made= tactical errors that lead to their defeat in those instances.s  I In the end, the US got what it wanted - New England not to secede, and antK end to the trade embargo with France and an end to the boarding of US shipsmL by the British. But it should be noted that the end of the trade embargo andL the boarding of US ships was not a result of US action per se, but rather itL was as a result of the British victory over Napoleon and the end of that warL and the realization that war between the US and Britain made no sense. SanerA heads on both sides prevailed and the war came to an end in 1815.c  L BTW, the battle at New Orleans with Andrew Jackson leading the Americans wasJ actually fought after the armistice between Britain and the US was signed,I but owing to the lack of email in those days (there, see, we're back in a I technology thread), word did not reach the combatants until the day after, the battle. C'est la guerre.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:40:44 +0100.' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>t Subject: Re: SoftPC on VMS* Message-ID: <asndvr$rur$1@news.tudelft.nl>   Zane H. Healy wrote:3 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:d > M >>Last century (back when Digital was Digital), there was a DOS/8086 emulatoriO >>that ran on VMS, giving VT users a character cell interface to DOS. I believeo >>it was called SoftPC.  >  > L >>Does anyone know what happened to it ? Would this still be available ? Any >>hopes as a hobbyist ?  >  > G > My guess is it's a dead product, never to see the light of day again.f > J > You might want to look for something called 'bochs' though.  ISTR seeing/ > something about it having been ported to VMS.e+ See : http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/n > 	 > 			Zanem   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:45:06 -0500. From: GcE <gce@gce.com>i Subject: Re: SoftPC on VMS+ Message-ID: <asnodm$8kp$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   H I did grab a CVS dump of the BOCHS system on the same day as the patchesK from tudelft were made. It turned out I needed to make a couple minor editshH to get the patched stuff to compile but it does compile and runs. So farB I have not managed to try to get it to install windows 95 or linux  but I have not tried many times.  I Supposedly a Bochs V2 will be released soon (a few release candidates areeC on the webpage at bochs.org) which might be better as a support fore
 such systems.t  N I note that the Bochs page only claims W95 works under Bochs, and I don't know- how well it would support, say, RedHat 8.0...    Glenn Everhart   JOUKJ wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > 4 >> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: >>G >>> Last century (back when Digital was Digital), there was a DOS/8086 c >>> emulatorJ >>> that ran on VMS, giving VT users a character cell interface to DOS. I  >>> believea >>> it was called SoftPC.  >> >> >>I >>> Does anyone know what happened to it ? Would this still be available o	 >>> ? Anyd >>> hopes as a hobbyist ?f >> >> >>H >> My guess is it's a dead product, never to see the light of day again. >>K >> You might want to look for something called 'bochs' though.  ISTR seeinge0 >> something about it having been ported to VMS. > - > See : http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/d >  >> >>             Zanei >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 15:50:09 GMTf+ From: "P.Lj" <plj@NOSPAMbyron.ext.telia.se>  Subject: Re: SoftPC on VMS1 Message-ID: <RAKH9.180$FF4.11986@newsb.telia.net>o  
 GcE wrote:J > I did grab a CVS dump of the BOCHS system on the same day as the patchesM > from tudelft were made. It turned out I needed to make a couple minor editsiJ > to get the patched stuff to compile but it does compile and runs. So farD > I have not managed to try to get it to install windows 95 or linux" > but I have not tried many times. > K > Supposedly a Bochs V2 will be released soon (a few release candidates areeE > on the webpage at bochs.org) which might be better as a support for  > such systems.R > F > I note that the Bochs page only claims W95 works under Bochs, and I  > don't know/ > how well it would support, say, RedHat 8.0...r >  > Glenn Everhart >  > JOUKJ wrote: >  >> Zane H. Healy wrote:s >>5 >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:t >>>oH >>>> Last century (back when Digital was Digital), there was a DOS/8086 
 >>>> emulatoroI >>>> that ran on VMS, giving VT users a character cell interface to DOS.   >>>> I believe >>>> it was called SoftPC. n >>>e >>>t >>>" >>> J >>>> Does anyone know what happened to it ? Would this still be available 
 >>>> ? Any >>>> hopes as a hobbyist ? >>>t >>>k >>>  >>>eI >>> My guess is it's a dead product, never to see the light of day again.n >>>nL >>> You might want to look for something called 'bochs' though.  ISTR seeing1 >>> something about it having been ported to VMS.t >> >>. >> See : http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/ >> >>>e >>>             Zane >> >> >> >   G If I remember right did the 'VMS-patch' for Bochs originally came from:g% http://www.encompasserve.org/~burley/y   /P.Lje   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:28:15 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: SoftPC on VMS$ Message-ID: <3def8cbd$1@news.si.com>  I >You might want to look for something called 'bochs' though.  ISTR seeinge. >something about it having been ported to VMS.  6 http://www.encompasserve.org/~burley/bochs-1_3_vms.zip -- nA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comoA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comm= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventd< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 07:04:59 -0800.% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn)t, Subject: Re: Sysgen parameter VMS8 Odd Value= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0212050704.79ded5c0@posting.google.com>e  D In our cluster of 2 GS140's and 2 GS160's, the GS140's have VMS8 setF to 0 and the GS160's have it at %X10290000. I have no idea why and how8 it gets set. But it seems consistent with your findings.   Regards,  	 Bart Zornc  m newton_l@encompasserve.org (Lawrence Newton) wrote in message news:<WO+BsssQMlO8@eisner.encompasserve.org>...lH > I recently added a GS80 into a cluster using cluster_config.com. EveryN > thing went smoothly and the system is working good. After a week of running,N > I ran autogen and looked at the sysgen parameters. I found that the reserved= > parameter VMS8 was set to 271122432 which is hex 10290000. r > 0 > Does anyone have a clue as to what this does??J > I looked through all the files I thought might contain it and looked on I > the web. I only found reference to VMS8 way back in VMS version 5.x andn& > of course some stuff about VMS V8.x. > L > We play a shell game with our Alphas, bringing different hardware nodes upM > in different roots. (Confuses operators totally) The GS80 has been switchediN > with a GS140, so the sysgen parameters are also switched.  If the GS80 needsE > VMS8 set and the GS140 doesn't like it, I can't tell at this point.t > J > Specs:  VMS V7.3 with most of the recent patches. 5 node CI cluster with > 3 GS140, 1 GS80, 1 DS20E.i >  > Lawrence Newtont   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 10:15:04 -0800"4 From: harris.graeber@rocketmail.com (Harris Graeber), Subject: Re: Sysgen parameter VMS8 Odd Value= Message-ID: <87430e69.0212051015.498c4f2a@posting.google.com>o   Try  SYSGEN>  HELP SYS VMS.   Sys_Parameters     VMSa  A        VMSD1, VMSD2, VMSD3, VMSD4, VMS5, VMS6, VMS7, and VMS8 arevF        special parameters reserved for Compaq use. VMSD1 through VMSD4        are dynamic.w  m newton_l@encompasserve.org (Lawrence Newton) wrote in message news:<WO+BsssQMlO8@eisner.encompasserve.org>...cH > I recently added a GS80 into a cluster using cluster_config.com. EveryN > thing went smoothly and the system is working good. After a week of running,N > I ran autogen and looked at the sysgen parameters. I found that the reserved= > parameter VMS8 was set to 271122432 which is hex 10290000. e > 0 > Does anyone have a clue as to what this does??J > I looked through all the files I thought might contain it and looked on I > the web. I only found reference to VMS8 way back in VMS version 5.x ando& > of course some stuff about VMS V8.x. > L > We play a shell game with our Alphas, bringing different hardware nodes upM > in different roots. (Confuses operators totally) The GS80 has been switchedcN > with a GS140, so the sysgen parameters are also switched.  If the GS80 needsE > VMS8 set and the GS140 doesn't like it, I can't tell at this point.t > J > Specs:  VMS V7.3 with most of the recent patches. 5 node CI cluster with > 3 GS140, 1 GS80, 1 DS20E.y >  > Lawrence Newton    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 01:48:26 -0800e( From: robert_kersey@bat.com (Rob Kersey)& Subject: SYSMAN running in a batch job= Message-ID: <f936a854.0212050148.13f68db7@posting.google.com>i  D I am trying to create a batch job that runs every morning and checksF the nodes around our site using the syman utility. The .com file/batch# job then E-Mails the results to us.a  D The problem that I have is that I am using the following command andC getting an error when SYSMAN trys to log into the remote nodes as Ir@ can't seem to specify a password. When run interactivley you canE easily type the password, but we would prefer to keep this task fully,
 automated!  - Set Environment/Node=(X,Y,Z)/Username=SYS_MANg  E I have tried using a proxy but again this seems to fail, I have tried F putting the password on the next line of the code but this also fails.  E The obvious alternative would be to set up the batch job on each nodetF and not use SYSMAN. However for maintainablity we would rather use the" SYSMAN tool and run from one node.   Can this be done?o   Thanks in advancea   Romeo Dunn!    Robu   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:40:52 -00002 From: "Roger Fraser" <roger.fraser@baesystems.com>* Subject: Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job1 Message-ID: <3def2c22$1@baen1673807.greenlnk.net>d  5 "Rob Kersey" <robert_kersey@bat.com> wrote in messagea7 news:f936a854.0212050148.13f68db7@posting.google.com...sF > I am trying to create a batch job that runs every morning and checksH > the nodes around our site using the syman utility. The .com file/batch% > job then E-Mails the results to us.o >hF > The problem that I have is that I am using the following command andE > getting an error when SYSMAN trys to log into the remote nodes as I.B > can't seem to specify a password. When run interactivley you canG > easily type the password, but we would prefer to keep this task fullyo > automated! > / > Set Environment/Node=(X,Y,Z)/Username=SYS_MANu >iG > I have tried using a proxy but again this seems to fail, I have tried H > putting the password on the next line of the code but this also fails. > G > The obvious alternative would be to set up the batch job on each nodewH > and not use SYSMAN. However for maintainablity we would rather use the$ > SYSMAN tool and run from one node. >  > Can this be done?i >  > Thanks in advancee >,
 > Romeo Dunn!o >s > Robm    I use SYSMAN in batch regularly: $ define/user sysmanini nl:y $ mc sysmane set environment/clustert
 do <whatever>  exit $ exit  ) It may be you need the define/user first.      Roger    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:51:35 +0000 ( From: Martyn <mpattKNICKERS@bigfoot.com>* Subject: Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job* Message-ID: <3DEF2FB7.6090602@bigfoot.com>   Roger Fraser wrote:n  6 >"Rob Kersey" <robert_kersey@bat.com> wrote in message8 >news:f936a854.0212050148.13f68db7@posting.google.com... >  h > F >>I am trying to create a batch job that runs every morning and checksH >>the nodes around our site using the syman utility. The .com file/batch% >>job then E-Mails the results to us.> >>F >>The problem that I have is that I am using the following command andE >>getting an error when SYSMAN trys to log into the remote nodes as I B >>can't seem to specify a password. When run interactivley you canG >>easily type the password, but we would prefer to keep this task fullya >>automated! >>/ >>Set Environment/Node=(X,Y,Z)/Username=SYS_MANt >>G >>I have tried using a proxy but again this seems to fail, I have triedrH >>putting the password on the next line of the code but this also fails. >>G >>The obvious alternative would be to set up the batch job on each node.H >>and not use SYSMAN. However for maintainablity we would rather use the$ >>SYSMAN tool and run from one node. >> >>Can this be done?e >> >>Thanks in advance  >>
 >>Romeo Dunn!o >> >>Robm >>     >> > ! >I use SYSMAN in batch regularly:  >$ define/user sysmanini nl: >$ mc sysman >set environment/cluster >do <whatever> >exitu >$ exit  > * >It may be you need the define/user first. >n >  Roger >D >' >  n > G IIRC "set env/cluster" doesn't require a password, however if you "set iF env" to a node which isn't in the cluster it does require a password. D  From a security point of view you don't want to have the  password 1 available in any of the procedures or text files.?  H How about setting the job up as a batch job on one node, which does all - the scheduling & contolling, and have it do ap   $submit/remote  F on all other nodes, you can ustilise proxies for this. I've used this # approach before and it worked well.e     -- t( Speak to the Penguin, he is your friend.  , Remove KNICKERS before replying by Email ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 06:02:47 -0500?0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>* Subject: Re: SYSMAN running in a batch job/ Message-ID: <3DEF3253.81AA45A8@vl.videotron.ca>    Rob Kersey wrote:sF > The problem that I have is that I am using the following command andE > getting an error when SYSMAN trys to log into the remote nodes as Ii# > can't seem to specify a password.>  I I think that the VMS engineers have really prevented it purposefully (you C don't want passwords to privileged accounts stored in a .com file).e  N MC SYSMAN HELP USAGE   confirms that it cannot be used in batch if it requires a password.>   and    $define SYS$COMMAN SYS$INPUT( $MC SYSMAN SET ENV/NODE=VELO/USER=SYSTEM
 <password> DO SHOW TIME EXIT $EXIT.  M Come up with a message stating that there is a need for a remote password butl- that SYS$COMMAND doesn't point to a terminal.d  L The solution would be to have the same username on all nodes, at which pointM the SYSMAN command can be issued without /USER and this then works. (assuming  a cluster).c  H Not sure that /NODE can be used to target a decnet node (not in cluster)K without supplying user/password. On the other hand, with decnet proxies, itm should logically be possible.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:58:32 -05005 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>e5 Subject: this was the OpenVMS Pearl  I sent out todayr* Message-ID: <aso44d$dsb$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   ----Original Message-----e  3 From: tester tester [mailto:beeson1562@hotmail.com]n  * Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:12 AM   To: Skonetski, Susan   Subject: Openvms       Sue,  5 Maybe you can use this in your VMS "Pearls" mailings.o  D On page 2 of this web article on Linux, there's mention of OpenVMS's  
 stability.   Robert   ---   H >>>If it works, don?t jump to fix it: Ripping out a system is really big  L >>>news, noted Gillen. For example, he said OpenVMS is still running in many  J >>>places because it solves a business need, and because admins understand  K >>>the environment, they have good reliability and scalability. ?There?s no.  K >>>benefit for them to move. If it works, leave it alone. That?s really thes  $ >>>way people have to look at things  
 Article name:e  ) Linux's TCO not free but still impressiveo   URL ref:  L http://www.techrepublic.com/article_guest.jhtml?id=r00520021202ggg01.htm&pag e=1s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:47:38 -0500e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>! Subject: TK70 drive bug found :-(u/ Message-ID: <3DEF2EC7.108D9990@vl.videotron.ca>   K Since this is state of the art hardware, attached to an all mighty Microvax.7 II, I though it important to share this experience ....   X I tried a DIR/FULL of the MV-II diagnostics tape (to help someone else who had problems)  J It went well, but after a while, the drive started making noises I had notK heard before. (tac, tac, tac). It was quickly starting and stopping.  I gotuC scared, and <CTRL-Y> the thing, and thankfully, it didn't go RWAST.e  N However, upon issuing the dismount command, something went wrong, and the TK70N stated flashing its lights.  (ironic, isn't it that it would do the same to me2 as it did to the person whose TK50 got eaten up ?)  N Not affraid of my puppy, I took the cover off the TK70 drive only to find thatH the tape had not sppoled properly inside and was a fair bit of a mess. IM suspect that all this going back-and-forth in rapid sequence was too much for  the spool to keep up.H  > The spool was pretty full. (overflowing because of the mess).   M I took the cartridge out, and pulled out about 2-3 metres of tape with cottoniK gloves until the spool was left with only cleanly wound tape, then manually L rewound the tape onto the sppol and re-inserted the cartride. When I pulggedN the unit back in and pressed the button, it started to rewind and the tape was
 usable again.n  L However, it is quite interesting that software would cause the tape drive toD act in a way that causes the tape to get messed up inside the drive.  M Any chance the VMS engineers would fix this ????? :-) ;-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)o ;-) :-)n  M In other words, if you have TK drives, beware of the DIR command when it getsdJ towards the end of the tape, and bewate of strange noises because it means2 that the unit is about to mess up the tape inside.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:14:09 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: TK70 drive bug found :-( ) Message-ID: <3DEF3501.54E1F897@127.0.0.1>b   JF Mezei wrote:7 >  ...wP > Not affraid of my puppy, I took the cover off the TK70 drive only to find thatJ > the tape had not sppoled properly inside and was a fair bit of a mess. IO > suspect that all this going back-and-forth in rapid sequence was too much form > the spool to keep up.  >  ...rN > However, it is quite interesting that software would cause the tape drive toF > act in a way that causes the tape to get messed up inside the drive.  G I quite recently had a similar experience, but the tape had snarled and E was unusable, I spent a fun time pouring several hundred feet of tapea onto the floor :-(  : What had happened, is, I guess, the tape had not completedC acclimatizing, or similar and had stuck to the head, fairly common. B After gently freeing it, and powering back up, it was then the gut/ wrenching sound that the tape had been mangled.r  @ The tape was old, so is the drive, and it did this without beingE connected to a booted system, so if there is a problem I expects it'shE the firmware, but that same firmware wasn't responsible for putting aeG nice layer of oxide on the head and sticking the tape physically to it!n  8 Welcome, fellow member of the TK70 depreciation society.   -- l? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:06:06 +0000l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>l% Subject: Re: TK70 drive bug found :-(s8 Message-ID: <ajjuuuc0vngeipiu56ig4u36gg9f13vado@4ax.com>  F On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:14:09 +0000, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >> h >...Q >> Not affraid of my puppy, I took the cover off the TK70 drive only to find that K >> the tape had not sppoled properly inside and was a fair bit of a mess. I P >> suspect that all this going back-and-forth in rapid sequence was too much for >> the spool to keep up. >> t >...O >> However, it is quite interesting that software would cause the tape drive tohG >> act in a way that causes the tape to get messed up inside the drive.o >rH >I quite recently had a similar experience, but the tape had snarled andF >was unusable, I spent a fun time pouring several hundred feet of tape >onto the floor :-(e  E At least its a TK70 and not a TU70 (DEC's first? 6250bpi reel-to-reelsC drive).  They were much more "fun" when they screwed up - which wasn most of the time :-)    ; >What had happened, is, I guess, the tape had not completedhD >acclimatizing, or similar and had stuck to the head, fairly common.C >After gently freeing it, and powering back up, it was then the gutp0 >wrenching sound that the tape had been mangled. >kA >The tape was old, so is the drive, and it did this without beingsF >connected to a booted system, so if there is a problem I expects it'sF >the firmware, but that same firmware wasn't responsible for putting aH >nice layer of oxide on the head and sticking the tape physically to it! >o9 >Welcome, fellow member of the TK70 depreciation society.n   -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:57:34 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>% Subject: RE: TK70 drive bug found :-(y0 Message-ID: <01C29C3C.62099080@sulfer.icius.com>  F I have some not so fond memories of an old Kennedy reel-to-reel vacuumF column tape drive that should have been retired meny years previously.C Management wouldn't let us get rid of it because it looked like the E "computers" in movies, and they wanted to be able to point to it whena5 they were showing people from other companies around.   7 PHB's. And no, the "B" doesn't mean "Boss" this time...    Shane    -----Original Message-----, From: Alan Greig [mailto:a.greig@virgin.net]) Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:06 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn% Subject: Re: TK70 drive bug found :-(i    F On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:14:09 +0000, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >> ) >...L >> Not affraid of my puppy, I took the cover off the TK70 drive only to find thatK >> the tape had not sppoled properly inside and was a fair bit of a mess. IiL >> suspect that all this going back-and-forth in rapid sequence was too much fors >> the spool to keep up. >> H >...L >> However, it is quite interesting that software would cause the tape drive toG >> act in a way that causes the tape to get messed up inside the drive.n >nH >I quite recently had a similar experience, but the tape had snarled andF >was unusable, I spent a fun time pouring several hundred feet of tape >onto the floor :-(   E At least its a TK70 and not a TU70 (DEC's first? 6250bpi reel-to-reelwC drive).  They were much more "fun" when they screwed up - which waso most of the time :-)    ; >What had happened, is, I guess, the tape had not completed D >acclimatizing, or similar and had stuck to the head, fairly common.C >After gently freeing it, and powering back up, it was then the gutn0 >wrenching sound that the tape had been mangled. >dA >The tape was old, so is the drive, and it did this without beingeF >connected to a booted system, so if there is a problem I expects it'sF >the firmware, but that same firmware wasn't responsible for putting aH >nice layer of oxide on the head and sticking the tape physically to it! >i9 >Welcome, fellow member of the TK70 depreciation society.e   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:25:27 -0500u0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorsi/ Message-ID: <3DEE64AA.64D14062@vl.videotron.ca>e   Someone wrote:H > : that 10% is all I need.  Kermit -- pardon the comparision -- is likeD > : having all the features of MS Word when all I need to do is type > : memos. ...  H On the other hand, you only need to be bothered with one installation ofL software (and upgrades etc) for Kermit which gives you the versatility you'dJ need with 2 or 3 different "smaller" packages. So in the end, it saves youM time. You need not learn Kermit's powerful scripting if you don't use it. ButhN if another user does need it, it's there and doesn't require someone go out to% buy/download/install another package."  M And I would really debate a comparison with MS-Word. MS-Word is bloated, fulltL of security holes, huge, requires tons of system resources and is not reallyM meant to be all of the stuff it does (eg: not designed to do scriupting, even  though it supports it).r  E Kermit was designed for the stuff it does and does it well. Kermit ise5 something you can trust to do the job. MS-Word isn't.s   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 10:45:27 -0800i, From: colive@technologEase.com (Chris Olive)+ Subject: Re: totally OT: terminal emulatorss= Message-ID: <b10654c6.0212051045.4015eaa6@posting.google.com>h  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3DEE64AA.64D14062@vl.videotron.ca>...e > Someone wrote:J > > : that 10% is all I need.  Kermit -- pardon the comparision -- is likeF > > : having all the features of MS Word when all I need to do is type > > : memos. ... > J > On the other hand, you only need to be bothered with one installation ofN > software (and upgrades etc) for Kermit which gives you the versatility you'dL > need with 2 or 3 different "smaller" packages. So in the end, it saves youO > time. You need not learn Kermit's powerful scripting if you don't use it. But P > if another user does need it, it's there and doesn't require someone go out to' > buy/download/install another package.s > O > And I would really debate a comparison with MS-Word. MS-Word is bloated, full N > of security holes, huge, requires tons of system resources and is not reallyO > meant to be all of the stuff it does (eg: not designed to do scriupting, even  > though it supports it).t > G > Kermit was designed for the stuff it does and does it well. Kermit isp7 > something you can trust to do the job. MS-Word isn't.u  E Why suew-tainly, Larry!  That's what I meant when I said "The analogy E breaks down..."  Why, I oughta... 8-)  Now watch my hand.... <Whack!>t   Coy-ly -----sC curly@three-stooges.com  (there, spammers... take THAT and have fund	 with it.)    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:32 GMTD* From: "Mark E. Levy" <levy@sysman-inc.com>, Subject: TU78 (was:TK70 drive bug found :-(). Message-ID: <I3JH9.245564$WL3.83687@rwcrnsc54>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:ajjuuuc0vngeipiu56ig4u36gg9f13vado@4ax.com...G > At least its a TK70 and not a TU70 (DEC's first? 6250bpi reel-to-reelcE > drive).  They were much more "fun" when they screwed up - which waso > most of the time :-)  H I think you mean TU78. It wasn't manufactured by DEC. It might have beenL Pertec, but it's gotta be 7 years since I used one, so I don't remember. AndD yes, they were so fast that it was spectacular when they screwed up.   ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 15:39:33 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 0 Subject: Re: TU78 (was:TK70 drive bug found :-()8 Message-ID: <nfsuuukdtgotivlgcgba89h0lt62sgtntj@4ax.com>  F On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:06:32 GMT, "Mark E. Levy" <levy@sysman-inc.com> wrote:  3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messagei3 >news:ajjuuuc0vngeipiu56ig4u36gg9f13vado@4ax.com..."H >> At least its a TK70 and not a TU70 (DEC's first? 6250bpi reel-to-reelF >> drive).  They were much more "fun" when they screwed up - which was >> most of the time :-)o >iI >I think you mean TU78. It wasn't manufactured by DEC. It might have beengM >Pertec, but it's gotta be 7 years since I used one, so I don't remember. And2E >yes, they were so fast that it was spectacular when they screwed up.t  B Absolutely right. I did mean TU78. Not manufactured by DEC but was@ badged by them. When I saw my first one installed around 1982, IA recall the DEC field service engineers making frantic phone callsSF because they couldn't believe it was supposed to make as much noise asE it did in normal operation. We (Dundee College of Technology) had onee6 of the first TU78s and RP07s installed in the UK IIRC.   >MLi >o   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:21:17 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> % Subject: Very cool - IP over Firewire-J Message-ID: <12LH9.231590$oRV.110639@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  L http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=77&ncid=1208&e=7&u=/mc/20028 1204/tc_mc/apple_offers_ip_over_firewire_preview_release   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 00:54:38 -0800B$ From: danwitbier@yahoo.com.au (dann)5 Subject: VMS Courses in Australia - other than COMPAQi= Message-ID: <564de82a.0212050054.5bdf3109@posting.google.com>u  C Is anyone aware of any OpenVMS courses that are provided other than E that of COMPAQ here in Australia ( specifically Sydney ) ? If so, I'd  be interested to find out.   Cheers,A   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:08:32 +0100t2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)) Subject: Re: Webserver advice for VAX/VMSs; Message-ID: <3def8810.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>a  , David Webb (david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk) wrote:, > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:( > >"Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote...L > >> With two powerful VAXstations (4000-90A) I'm considering setting one upJ > >> as a webserver. I've got Freeware distribution V5, which offers a few > >> options (like WASD IIRC). > >> oA > >> Question 1: which one is the easiest to set up and maintain?s > >> oB > >> Question 2: are there other (freeware) products that I should > >> investigate?r > >  > > Q1 answer: Purveyoro > > Q2 answer: Purveyore > G > I thought Purveyor when it was still being developed was a commercial  > product not freeware.    It was.f  6 > Can you even obtain Purveyor from Process any more ?  0 AFAIK, yes - on an "as-is and no support" basis.8 But then, you could probably turn to Bob for support ;-)   cu,N   Martin -- eD                         | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1  VMS is today what      | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de E  Microsoft wants        |    http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/i8  Windows NT 8.0 to be!  | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:09:19 +0100r4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>: Subject: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?& Message-ID: <3DEF17BF.2020909@Free.fr>  H A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time workshop N management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital Numeric Control ?) M driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: "where should we go when HP o* discontinue the VAX product line support".  A My answer has been: "Alpha", then "IA64", then "or other vendor".p  F What vendors do you know of who could supersede a VAX driven workshop?   SUN Solaris? HP/UX ?w others?    Thanks,t   D. (back from hell)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:37:04 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>s> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?' Message-ID: <3DEF1E40.C28D2417@aaa.com>p   HI.d; Isn't the answer more or less depending on what hardware/OSh the software they use runs on ?   & Or are all software in-house written ? Is it 24/7 ?  8 Are the DNC machines "feed" with data all the time (like? when emulating a paper tape read or something simmilar) or justnA downloaded when, e.g., changing product type (a few time s day) ?a  B (B.t.w, the older machines with paper tape readers was called "NC"= for Numeric Control. The "D" for "Digital" was added when thea@ paper tape readers was replaced with somthing more intelligent.)  B One option could be to see if someone else (then HP) would like to continue the VAX support.o  E I'd go the Alpha -> IA64 route, if they don't see any other "problem"a" (technical or political) with VMS.  A I supose you could replace the VAX'es with more or less anything,, "it depends" as they say...e   Jan-Erik Sderholm.l   Didier Morandi wrote:e > I > A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time workshop O > management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital Numeric Control ?)nN > driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: "where should we go when HP, > discontinue the VAX product line support". > C > My answer has been: "Alpha", then "IA64", then "or other vendor".s > H > What vendors do you know of who could supersede a VAX driven workshop? >  > SUN Solaris?	 > HP/UX ?p	 > others?r > 	 > Thanks,s >  > D. > (back from hell)  % Have you visited Paris lately :-) :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:39:05 -0500r0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?/ Message-ID: <3DEF2CC6.182AD478@vl.videotron.ca>h   Didier Morandi wrote:wO > management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital Numeric Control ?)(N > driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: "where should we go when HP, > discontinue the VAX product line support".   > SUN Solaris?	 > HP/UX ?-	 > others?-   IBM ?   M There are also some niche market machines that run real time operating systemc VxWorks if I remember well.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:20:19 -0500e2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?. Message-ID: <3DEF5293.D78519FA@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   O > There are also some niche market machines that run real time operating systemn > VxWorks if I remember well.a  * If it comes to VxWorks, Wind River Systems* supports their VxWorks RTOS on practically everything.i   Atlant  % (VxWorks is a Hard RealTime Operatingr* System that runs a very Unix-like environ-+ ment programmed in C. Because of this, it'so& tremendously easy for an ordinary Unix) developer to use. It's cross-developed on-- a variety of Unix platforms including Tru64.):   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:20:27 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?? Message-ID: <OFC18B03E3.01668F4F-ON85256C86.004EACFE@metso.com>d   Would the Charon VAX help? [I have no connection to them.]o  I From:  Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> on 12/05/2002 04:09i	        AMl  @ Please respond to Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:f  = Subject:    what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?g    G A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time workshopoJ management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital Numeric Control ?)I driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: "where should we go when: HP* discontinue the VAX product line support".  A My answer has been: "Alpha", then "IA64", then "or other vendor".r  F What vendors do you know of who could supersede a VAX driven workshop?   SUN Solaris? HP/UX ?o others?    Thanks,a   D. (back from hell)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:58:27 -0500l* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?. Message-ID: <3DEF2343.25961.CBB84D9@localhost>  - On 5 Dec 2002 at 10:09, Didier Morandi wrote:o  J > A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time workshop P > management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital Numeric Control ?) O > driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: "where should we go when HP P, > discontinue the VAX product line support".  8 (shameless plug alert)  My recommendation is CHARON-VAX.  D However, HP has included VAX in its roadmaps through version 8.2 of 2 VMS. That gives them until about 2010, at least...  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147s= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:08:23 -0700r+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>t> Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?' Message-ID: <3DEF6BE7.6030000@MMaz.com>d   Didier Morandi wrote:   A > A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time vF > workshop management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital F > Numeric Control ?) driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: H > "where should we go when HP discontinue the VAX product line support". >aC > My answer has been: "Alpha", then "IA64", then "or other vendor".> >IH > What vendors do you know of who could supersede a VAX driven workshop? >o > SUN Solaris?	 > HP/UX ? 	 > others?s  G Presuming that your apps have not been ported, you can always consider > running SRI's Charon-VAX...s   Barryr   -- n  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:54:09 -0500l' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> > Subject: Re: what could replace VAX-driven DNC tools machines?+ Message-ID: <asnsf4$iu5$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  C A first question I might ask is what kind of interfaces are used to A communicate with the DNC tools? Something like simh or charon-vaxmA might do the computation but if the interface is realtime and notgA just something that might run off an RS232, you need to find somehD other iron that supports it, or figure how to add it to an emulator.   Glenn Everhart   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: >  >  > Didier Morandi wrote:- > B >> A Customer is wondering about his future in terms of real-time G >> workshop management. They have 50 tools machines doing DNC (Digital PG >> Numeric Control ?) driven by a few VAX systems. They are asking me: II >> "where should we go when HP discontinue the VAX product line support".e >>D >> My answer has been: "Alpha", then "IA64", then "or other vendor". >>I >> What vendors do you know of who could supersede a VAX driven workshop?s >> >> SUN Solaris?d
 >> HP/UX ?
 >> others? >  > I > Presuming that your apps have not been ported, you can always consider   > running SRI's Charon-VAX...s >  > Barryt >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:51:18 -0500i! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>g( Subject: Re: what does this command mean' Message-ID: <3DEE5CB6.613B5F59@vcu.edu>i  E somehow i don't think it's from gurgling from under a hot tub.... ;-)a   JF Mezei wrote:c >  > >> "furkling" ???!!! >  > >Shane Smith wrote:o > >  > > Rooting, rummaging, etc. > P > Is this a british expression, or something you picked up because you have been > in Kalifornia too long ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:06:10 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>/ Subject: Re: Winkler to be new marketing chief.c* Message-ID: <00A18011.74151AA0.7@decus.de>  3 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:n   > [...]s >oO > Just when we though that HP was becoming serious about VMS. This happens. Onef> > wonders if Winkler is on the Microsoft of HP/Compaq payroll. > J > > At Compaq, Winkler was in charge of dividing the market into PC, Unix,  > > OpenVMS and Tandem segments. >eP > And should thus be held responsible for cannabalising Compaq's most profitableJ > products in favour of money losing ones, which forced Compaq to seek theO > merger because it couldn't make a go of it alone. And the guy gets promoted ?-1 > Shouldn't he have followed Curly to  Worldcom ?s  E Rumours have been reported here that Curly got an offer from M$. ThisME would be the best position for Mr Winkler I guess, at least as viewedc by a lot of customers.   >Y > [...]    Michaele   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:10:26 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>/ Subject: RE: Winkler to be new marketing chief. 0 Message-ID: <01C29C3E.40EA0860@sulfer.icius.com>  G Nah, the best position for Curly would be crash test dummy at Lada. (Or.D whatever car company has the worst quality reputation in your area -8 don't want to start another crap car comparison thread.)   Shane      -----Original Message-----+ From: Michael Unger [mailto:unger@decus.de]u) Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:06 AMs To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comx/ Subject: Re: Winkler to be new marketing chief.     3 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:g   > [...]n >nK > Just when we though that HP was becoming serious about VMS. This happens.  Oneo> > wonders if Winkler is on the Microsoft of HP/Compaq payroll. > J > > At Compaq, Winkler was in charge of dividing the market into PC, Unix,  > > OpenVMS and Tandem segments. >lE > And should thus be held responsible for cannabalising Compaq's mosts
 profitableJ > products in favour of money losing ones, which forced Compaq to seek theM > merger because it couldn't make a go of it alone. And the guy gets promoted  ?o1 > Shouldn't he have followed Curly to  Worldcom ?   E Rumours have been reported here that Curly got an offer from M$. This2E would be the best position for Mr Winkler I guess, at least as viewedS by a lot of customers.   >e > [...]    Michael2   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Dec 2002 17:23:27 -0000c4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>/ Subject: Re: Winkler to be new marketing chief.i6 Message-ID: <20021205172327.31402.qmail@nym.alias.net>  9 On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> wrote:d  F >Rumours have been reported here that Curly got an offer from M$. ThisF >would be the best position for Mr Winkler I guess, at least as viewed >by a lot of customers.w  E Some might prefer that he be delivered into the care of the Prince of(4 Darkness, rather than joining him as an employee. :)     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 12:28:52 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)Y? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive accessi3 Message-ID: <d87Oy6q86t6e@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  f In article <20021204191910.11454.qmail@nym.alias.net>, "Doc.Cypher" <doc_cypher@nym.alias.net> writes:7 > NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. : > No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.: > -------------------------------------------------------- > H > On Wed, 04 Dec 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: >>"Doc.Cypher" wrote:hK >>> What incantation prevents login with a password, but permits it via SSHh0 >>> using public-private keypair authentication? >> >>TCPIP DISABLE SERVICE TELNET >>P >>That will disable all inbound telnet connections. Telnet is what gives you the >>username/password prompts. > M > That's useless (sorry!). I want it for the one user who has requested this,  > not for everyone.o >   > 	There is a way, depending on stack.  If you know the IP range8 	he/she connects from, Multinet allows this granularity:  @         Accept Hosts = IP-127.0.0.1 , IP-199.99.99.98  ! Fake IP 	  	Conversely:  , 	Reject Hosts = IP-199.99.123.122  ! Fake IP   	or reject the whole net.p   	Reject Nets =  IP-199.99.0.0n  9 	Perhaps the stack you are using has similar granularity.u   				RobY   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:02:05 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive accesss/ Message-ID: <3DEE5F33.55473C9F@vl.videotron.ca>x   "Doc.Cypher" wrote: G > >With this, you could put code in the user's LOGIN.COM  or systemwide-? > >SYLOGIN.COM to logout the user if he accesses through telnett > J > By the time it says "no telnet login" they know the password and can use > FTP or whatever else..  L In that case, you should really look into the LGI sysgen parameters. You canI program an account to be disabled after X attemts for password. (the safe N thing tis to have it disabled for a random amount of time around X minutes, soT that they don't disable your system completely by trying passwords on all accounts).  M Does SSH create an "INTERACTIVE" process or a "NETWORK" process on your TCPIPgH stack ? If it creates a "NETWORK" process, then you can use AUTHORIZE to4 simply disable interactive access for that one user.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 13:20:35 -0600e+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)>? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive accesst3 Message-ID: <atxOvk6efkBH@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  l In article <20021204200132.2912.qmail@nym.alias.net>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:= > On 4 Dec 2002, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote: E >>In article <20021204191910.11454.qmail@nym.alias.net>, "Doc.Cypher"o$ >><doc_cypher@nym.alias.net> writes:9 >>> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. < >>> No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.< >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> J >>> On Wed, 04 Dec 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: >>>>"Doc.Cypher" wrote:DM >>>>> What incantation prevents login with a password, but permits it via SSHo2 >>>>> using public-private keypair authentication? >>>>  >>>>TCPIP DISABLE SERVICE TELNET >>>>J >>>>That will disable all inbound telnet connections. Telnet is what gives >>>>you theo >>>>username/password prompts. >>> O >>> That's useless (sorry!). I want it for the one user who has requested this,, >>> not for everyone.s >>>  >>@ >>	There is a way, depending on stack.  If you know the IP range: >>	he/she connects from, Multinet allows this granularity: >>B >>        Accept Hosts = IP-127.0.0.1 , IP-199.99.99.98  ! Fake IP > J > I did think of that... Can't use it either. It would be pretty pointlessI > blocking this user from making a telnet connection then allowing telnet:H > from any other location to try that user's standard login credentials. >  >   " 	Okay.  How hacked up can this be?  = 	Here is a hack of an idea...  SSH term type looks like this:   + 	<NODE>$ termname = f$getjpi("","TERMINAL")e 	<NODE>$ SH SYM TERMNAME   	TERMNAME = "FTA2:">  ( 	Telnet's show up as NTY (or VTA, YMMV).   	The SYLOGIN catch would be:  / 	$ ssh_access = TERMNAME - "FTA" .NES. TERMNAMEr4 	$ USERNAME = F$EDIT(F$GETJPI("","USERNAME"),"TRIM")  # 	$ IF USERNAME .EQS. "TARGETNAME" - + 	  .AND. (.NOT. SSH_ACCESS) THEN LOGOUTNOW	$  ; 	With the RESTRICTED flag of course set in UAF so you don'ts 	have folks coming in:   	Username: user/nocommandm   	Bypassing SYLOGIN.r  D 	With appropriate catches in SYLOGIN to keep CTRL-Y breakouts and/or  	FLAGGED with nocontroly in UAF.   				Robv   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 20:01:32 -0000c4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access 5 Message-ID: <20021204200132.2912.qmail@nym.alias.net>s  ; On 4 Dec 2002, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:cD >In article <20021204191910.11454.qmail@nym.alias.net>, "Doc.Cypher"# ><doc_cypher@nym.alias.net> writes:o8 >> NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.; >> No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.s; >> --------------------------------------------------------e >> tI >> On Wed, 04 Dec 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:  >>>"Doc.Cypher" wrote:L >>>> What incantation prevents login with a password, but permits it via SSH1 >>>> using public-private keypair authentication?l >>>L >>>TCPIP DISABLE SERVICE TELNETs >>>tI >>>That will disable all inbound telnet connections. Telnet is what gives 
 >>>you the >>>username/password prompts.d >> eN >> That's useless (sorry!). I want it for the one user who has requested this, >> not for everyone. >> d >c? >	There is a way, depending on stack.  If you know the IP rangea9 >	he/she connects from, Multinet allows this granularity:  >mA >        Accept Hosts = IP-127.0.0.1 , IP-199.99.99.98  ! Fake IPl  H I did think of that... Can't use it either. It would be pretty pointlessG blocking this user from making a telnet connection then allowing telnetmF from any other location to try that user's standard login credentials.     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 20:29:40 -0000,4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access 4 Message-ID: <20021204202940.987.qmail@nym.alias.net>  F On Wed, 04 Dec 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: >"Doc.Cypher" wrote:H >> >With this, you could put code in the user's LOGIN.COM  or systemwide@ >> >SYLOGIN.COM to logout the user if he accesses through telnet >>  K >> By the time it says "no telnet login" they know the password and can use0 >> FTP or whatever else. > M >In that case, you should really look into the LGI sysgen parameters. You cansJ >program an account to be disabled after X attemts for password. (the safeO >thing tis to have it disabled for a random amount of time around X minutes, sofJ >that they don't disable your system completely by trying passwords on all >accounts).o  K I do have intrusion detection and break-in evasion running. The point is toeI make login with a password via telnet or SSH impossible but leave SSH keym authentication available.   N >Does SSH create an "INTERACTIVE" process or a "NETWORK" process on your TCPIPI >stack ? If it creates a "NETWORK" process, then you can use AUTHORIZE toh5 >simply disable interactive access for that one user.w  G INTERACTIVE. I would expect any connection that gives a DCL prompt on aa0 non-captive account to report this for f$mode().  E Leaving aside the tunnelling aspects of SSH, it is effectively just ae secure replacement for TELNET.  D Can't the technique used in the *ix "hack" be used? I.e. replace theE contents of the hashed password field in the UAF with something it isn1 impossible for the hashing algorithm to generate?        Doc. -- e6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.netw   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Dec 2002 20:33:28 -0000e4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>? Subject: Re: [Change topic] Restricting user interactive access 6 Message-ID: <20021204203328.22834.qmail@nym.alias.net>  . On 4 Dec 2002, briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:7 >How about UAF> MODIFY username /ALGORITHM=CUSTOMER=240    Err...  5 UAF> MODIFY <username>/ALGORITHM=CURRENT=CUSTOMER=240o  G >Unless you've implemented customer hash algorithm 240, you should have - >difficulty authenticating with any password.e  ' This certainly looks promising. Thanks!h     Doc. -- p6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.672 ************************