1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 11 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 684       Contents:= "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay A Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay A Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay A Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay 1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... 1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... 1 RE: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... 1 RE: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... 1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") ! AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem , Re: Alternatives to "DEC LMF PAK GEN V1.3" ? Andrew repats his same old FUD" Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD ANN: New utilities FDEL and SKL  Re: another partner  Re: Another Porting Problem 6 Call for participation in an European VMS experts team Re: checksum is not valid  RE: checksum is not valid  Debugging to tunes Re: Debugging to tunes Re: Debugging to tunes DFU report questions EV7 Performance benchmarks Re: EV7 Performance benchmarks Re: File update notification Re: Help! VMS 7.2 boot problems + Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mount + Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mount . Re: How many messages/second can a CI rail do?) Re: Independent Consultants + OpenVMS.org P Re: Info-VAX only access (was: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...) ..# Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?  KFDDA for VAX 4000 M108  Re: KFDDA for VAX 4000 M108  MAIL redirection Re: MAIL redirection' new version of OpenVMS password cracker  OpenVMS on Ruffian board? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - RE: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? 2 Re: Performance of atomic instructions and locking2 Re: Performance of atomic instructions and locking2 Re: Performance of atomic instructions and locking PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problem Re: PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problem Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting PostgreSQL to VMS ; Presentations of "HP Wonderland Event" (Switzerland) online B Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroupB Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroupO Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup - No thanks! E Re[2]: [Q] Detecting client disconnects from UCX/TCP server by Server . Re: Selling: DS10 600Mhz With VMS EIP Licenses. RE: Selling: DS10 600Mhz With VMS EIP Licenses Re: Silly HP zx6000 question Re: Vest Re: Vest Re: Vest Re: Vest Re: Vest Re: Vest$ VMS still a bastard child under DPSS( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS* What judge thinks of Capellas and WorldCon+ [FS] Classic DEC book for sale + more books   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:57:39 -0500  From: donny <donny@canada.com>F Subject: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay1 Message-ID: <111220020957392716%donny@canada.com>   G The book "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" is being sold  on eBay.  = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2079814396   @ The starting bid is US $0.55.  Auction ends Dec-13-02 14:03 PST.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:31:50 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.comJ Subject: Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay? Message-ID: <OF02D6E387.D960DA00-ON85256C8C.005547D8@metso.com>    Overpriced!   6 From:  donny <donny@canada.com> on 12/11/2002 09:57 AM  * Please respond to donny <donny@canada.com>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:   I Subject:    "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay     G The book "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" is being sold  on eBay.  = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2079814396   @ The starting bid is US $0.55.  Auction ends Dec-13-02 14:03 PST.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:09:41 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> J Subject: Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay8 Message-ID: <8poevugs7uu4bqgf90071dhv3p79371pib@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:57:39 -0500, donny <donny@canada.com> wrote:   H >The book "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" is being sold	 >on eBay.  > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2079814396 > A >The starting bid is US $0.55.  Auction ends Dec-13-02 14:03 PST.   9 Unless all copies are gone you can get them free from HP.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:06:39 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>J Subject: Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay+ Message-ID: <00A184C8.83E4D0ED.10@decus.de>   ! "donny" <donny@canada.com> wrote:   I > The book "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" is being sold 
 > on eBay. > ? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2079814396  > B > The starting bid is US $0.55.  Auction ends Dec-13-02 14:03 PST.  5 Apparently you can still get it for free from Compaq:   / http://www.openvms.compaq.com/dummies_book.html    Michael    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 19:05:58 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...- Message-ID: <877keg6cix.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   6 Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:  C > >And the merits of back-porting a full 64bit OS like OpenVMS to a E > >32bit HW architecture on cheap hardware in the hope that this will D > >somehow automatically attract a huge number of new ISV's has been. > >debated a thousand times before in this NG.   ? > As far as I am concerned, it's about 10 years too late to try E > something like that. My suspicion is the Hammer will gradually take 1 > over the market currently served by smaller x86 A > systems. Consequently I would like to see HP hedging their bets 3 > rather than putting all their eggs in one basket.   D Porting VMS to a low cost comodity platform would take 1 phone call.  H "IBM? We want 2000 a week for the next 50 weeks? What is the new price?"   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:31:49 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger): Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...L Message-ID: <rdeininger-1112020931500001@user-2ive32t.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <877keg6cix.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:  7 >Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:  > D >> >And the merits of back-porting a full 64bit OS like OpenVMS to aF >> >32bit HW architecture on cheap hardware in the hope that this willE >> >somehow automatically attract a huge number of new ISV's has been / >> >debated a thousand times before in this NG.  > @ >> As far as I am concerned, it's about 10 years too late to tryF >> something like that. My suspicion is the Hammer will gradually take2 >> over the market currently served by smaller x86B >> systems. Consequently I would like to see HP hedging their bets4 >> rather than putting all their eggs in one basket. > E >Porting VMS to a low cost comodity platform would take 1 phone call.  > I >"IBM? We want 2000 a week for the next 50 weeks? What is the new price?"    2000 of what a week?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:39:23 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: RE: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...3 Message-ID: <oxd82FOAQWRP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660BEE@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: > J > Course, the fact that there are no known OpenVMS virus's in the wild (toI > my knowledge anyway) may also have something to do with it as well. For J > anti-virus makers, how can you sell a solution when there is no problem?  C    HP has publicly stated that there are no known cases of VMS ever A    being penetrated by a virus.  I've quoted them during security D    reviews that had generic questions like "what anti-virus softwareD    are you running?".  I also been able to simply explain that there0    are no such product since there is no market.  C    I could have countered with the intent to write one (one line of H    code) if the security folks still instisted that I have one, but theyA    never questioned the above.  They're much too busy with MS and <    eunichs to bother us VMS folks with things we don't need.  E    I know a fellow who took a virus class on a VMS system.  The first ?    thing that happened was that the students all got privileged C    accounts so they could introduce virii, something you don't need     with too many other systems.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:57:44 -0500 5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> : Subject: RE: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...O Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A50D@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>   D I'd restate that slightly - the problem with MS systems is that mostL accounts are priviledged, and you have to jump thru hoops to get the id's toL be non priv'd and still function properly - it's easier to just leave them -J and then you get the mess we have today.  Bad single user mentality ported to multi user systems...   -----Original Message------ From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org 1 [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]  * Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:39 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com : Subject: RE: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...    
 In articleI <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660BEE@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, ) "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:  > G > Course, the fact that there are no known OpenVMS virus's in the wild  D > (to my knowledge anyway) may also have something to do with it as I > well. For anti-virus makers, how can you sell a solution when there is  
 > no problem?     ...E    I know a fellow who took a virus class on a VMS system.  The first ?    thing that happened was that the students all got privileged C    accounts so they could introduce virii, something you don't need     with too many other systems.       I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and J confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is J strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theI original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or J instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying$ out such orders and/or instructions.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:05:05 GMT 3 From: "George Samuelson" <samuelsong@insightbb.com> : Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...- Message-ID: <5fKJ9.317988$QZ.47521@sccrnsc02>   H Trust me, I know, first hand, that Tandem will do that all on their own.> Tandem won't need Carly, since they are their own worst enemy.     George Samuelson4 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message2 news:20021210084203.3d874b70.mathog@caltech.edu...$ > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:30:30 +01008 > "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk> wrote: > I > > Maybe true, but how many times has a similar thread popped up here in  c.o.v.K > > and still VMS refuses to dip its head below the surface and stay under.  > C > Carly and Winkler are standing on its head - VMS will stay under.  > D > HP's enterprise strategy is beyond mortal comprehension.  With VMS drowned,H > Tru64 murdered, and HPUX forced to undergo both a heart xenotransplant (theH > donor apparently being a cross between a  pig and a sloth) and massiveI > grafts from Tru64, the only thing that should be on the mind of most HP F > enterprise customers is "Who's our IBM sales rep?"  The Tandem folksH > must be praying that Carly will remain too busy preening for the media1 > to notice, and destroy, their platform as well.  >  > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu@ > Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:02:54 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...")5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-SBIQjRWZNw7S@localhost>   ? On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:25:35 UTC, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry   Kilgallen) wrote:    > In article <rdeininger-1112020011240001@user-2ive2p3.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: = > > In article <3DF5E839.9080607@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble   > > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > >  > > J > >>The proposal mentioned disappeared into the bottomless pit called VMS E > >>management, never to be seen again, not even a rejection.  Is the  > > appearance of Q > >>this question an indicator that VMS management might be looking at proposals  G > >>from customers a bit differently these days?  More than a bit late.  > > S > > I would take any improvement that arrives, and let others rehash past problems.  > > # > > I can't see any harm in asking.  > H > But rehashing history is a major preoccupation with this newsgroup :-)  B Well, if you apply the 'those who will not learn from history are > bound to repeat it' maxim you get (at least) two approaches :-  C 	the proposers learn that the VMS owners don't listen so they stop   wasting their own time.   F 	the VMS owners learn to listen ..... and stop wasting the proposers'  time -  Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:39:42 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...")/ Message-ID: <3DF6EB95.12531652@vl.videotron.ca>   ( On possible HP reluctance to the scheme:  I HP might wish to get rid of VAX and Alpha as soon as possible in order to * reduce the number of platforms to support.    J If you give a boost to older VMS platforms, this may result in new supportN contracts/customers for this older hardware in which HP isn't interested sinceK the more customers it has on the older hardware , the longer/harder it will ! take to get rid of such platform.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:12:38 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ..."), Message-ID: <3DF70186.9080502@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article <rdeininger-1112020011240001@user-2ive2p3.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  > ; >>In article <3DF5E839.9080607@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble  >><davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: >> >> >>I >>>The proposal mentioned disappeared into the bottomless pit called VMS  D >>>management, never to be seen again, not even a rejection.  Is the >> >>appearance of  >>P >>>this question an indicator that VMS management might be looking at proposals  >>F >>>from customers a bit differently these days?  More than a bit late. >>Q >>I would take any improvement that arrives, and let others rehash past problems.  >>! >>I can't see any harm in asking.  >  > H > But rehashing history is a major preoccupation with this newsgroup :-)    G But who was it who said that we never learn (or why do we never learn)   from history? :-)   H Usually, Mark Twain, Winston Churchill, Oscar Wilde or Shakespeare made " these pithy and quotable comments.  I [I had to reply to something to see how I appear from Info-VAX on Google  ! as per Doc Cypher's reply to me.]    Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:15:57 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ..."), Message-ID: <3DF7105D.9020506@tg.nsw.gov.au>   JF Mezei wrote:   * > On possible HP reluctance to the scheme: > K > HP might wish to get rid of VAX and Alpha as soon as possible in order to , > reduce the number of platforms to support. >  > E > If you give a boost to older VMS platforms, this may result in new  	 > support @ > contracts/customers for this older hardware in which HP isn't  > interested sinceI > the more customers it has on the older hardware , the longer/harder it   > will# > take to get rid of such platform.     ? I'm not sure to whom JF was replying, and hopefully my reply is B pertinent to the thread.  I cannot remember any messages with this subject title anyway.   F Although we keep upgrading (machine-wise) our production platform, ourH development is done mainly on a DEC 3000 model 40.  I do keep the OS theH same on this development machine and our production machine (and layered products) aligned.  H On my development machine, I also have clustered a *very* old VAXstationG 4000-60.  I use this mainly for debug windows and to effect things like E searches on our source code so that I am not clicking icons backwards  and forwards on the DEC 3000.   F We have bought a DS10 to replace this, but keep the DS10 as a disaster. recovery for either development or production.  G I "lost" my DEC 3000 last week after 268 days of uptime when the forest H fires around Sydney caused about 70 line trips and the transient voltage drops took it out.  A The previous downtime was when a scheduled electrical maintenance G occurred in our building.  I mainly upgrade compilers which do not need 
 a re-boot.  G If I understand the way this thread subject title implies, we no longer H maintain hardware maintenance on the VAX or the DEC 300.  When they die,F we will swap to the DS10 for development.  VMS and Alpha quality, I doH not see them dying anytime in the next 2 years, and then I'm out of hereG anyway.  The DEC 3000 has not required *any* maintenance since at least  1995.    Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 04:30:27 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...")3 Message-ID: <YVjDmn$A2vmN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <3DF7105D.9020506@tg.nsw.gov.au>, Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> writes: >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:  > + >> On possible HP reluctance to the scheme:  >>L >> HP might wish to get rid of VAX and Alpha as soon as possible in order to- >> reduce the number of platforms to support.   H They make money from support contracts on those machines, from customersI whose interests would not be satisfied by a free license (they need to be  on support).  F >> If you give a boost to older VMS platforms, this may result in new 
 >> supportA >> contracts/customers for this older hardware in which HP isn't   >> interested since J >> the more customers it has on the older hardware , the longer/harder it  >> will $ >> take to get rid of such platform.  H In a real business, there is no imperative to shed moneymaking activity.  H > Although we keep upgrading (machine-wise) our production platform, ourJ > development is done mainly on a DEC 3000 model 40.  I do keep the OS theJ > same on this development machine and our production machine (and layered > products) aligned.  I > If I understand the way this thread subject title implies, we no longer J > maintain hardware maintenance on the VAX or the DEC 300.  When they die,H > we will swap to the DS10 for development.  VMS and Alpha quality, I doJ > not see them dying anytime in the next 2 years, and then I'm out of hereI > anyway.  The DEC 3000 has not required *any* maintenance since at least  > 1995.   B So HP would not lose any income from you by making the VMS licenseD free on older gear.  That action would not affect your desire to buyB service on older hardware (the only way they can make money on it) one way or the other.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:42:41 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ..."), Message-ID: <3DF75CF1.2010107@tsoft-inc.com>   Dave Weatherall wrote:  A > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:25:35 UTC, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry   > Kilgallen) wrote:  >  >  >>In article <rdeininger-1112020011240001@user-2ive2p3.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  >>< >>>In article <3DF5E839.9080607@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble >>><davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >>>  >>>  >>> J >>>>The proposal mentioned disappeared into the bottomless pit called VMS E >>>>management, never to be seen again, not even a rejection.  Is the  >>>> >>>appearance of   >>> Q >>>>this question an indicator that VMS management might be looking at proposals   >>>>G >>>>from customers a bit differently these days?  More than a bit late.  >>> R >>>I would take any improvement that arrives, and let others rehash past problems. >>> " >>>I can't see any harm in asking. >>> H >>But rehashing history is a major preoccupation with this newsgroup :-) >> > D > Well, if you apply the 'those who will not learn from history are @ > bound to repeat it' maxim you get (at least) two approaches :- > E > 	the proposers learn that the VMS owners don't listen so they stop   > wasting their own time.  > H > 	the VMS owners learn to listen ..... and stop wasting the proposers'  > time > -  > Cheers - Dave. >     L Thank you for saving me the trouble of beating LArry over the head with the  'learn from history' thing.   J That said, one must move forward by realizing that while you don't forget M history, least you repeat mistakes, you also don't let history hold you back  ! when opportunity presents itself.   Q With that perspective, I'll ask Robert this question.  Is this something that is  M being worked upon by VMS management, or is there a need for some proposal or  " discussion from the customer base?   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 11:29:10 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...")3 Message-ID: <UZtR6HsCZQef@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3DF75CF1.2010107@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   S > With that perspective, I'll ask Robert this question.  Is this something that is  O > being worked upon by VMS management, or is there a need for some proposal or  $ > discussion from the customer base?  B Even if it is not, I think discussing it here would be better thanD discussing how to compute pi to N decimal places using DCL, and even worse drek that shows up here.  C There are enough VMS Development folks who read this newsgroup that B if someone presented cogent arguments someone from VMS Development; would remember them and be able to present them internally.   A I think the most crucial issue is whether the idea would harm VMS D revenues, and I see no way that it would.  All theories of increasedD VMS interest are just theories, desires, etc., but nothing ventured, nothing gained.  So:   	1. Would this harm VMS revenue & 	2. Would this cost a lot to implement   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:59:39 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net * Subject: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem7 Message-ID: <vpIJ9.11099$cn2.1068@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>   = I have an AlphaServer 4100 at home with four 466MHz CPU cards ? and 2GB of memory (two 1GB cards).  I have three power supplies 
 installed.  ; When I power-up the 4100, I get failures on test 20 (memory ; test), but no failures on test 24 (also a memory test), but : the system isn't usable due to the failures.  If I quickly; power-on and -off the 4100 there aren't any failures during  any of the tests.   9 My first suspicion is that I had a bad power supply, so I < swapped out all three of them, but the problem still exists.  : If I remove two of the CPUs, I don't see any failures when I power-up the system.  9 Has anyone else experienced this?  If so, can you tell me 9 what had to be done to fix it?  Like I mentioned, this is - at home so I'm it as far as hardware support.    Thanks.  --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:46:23 -0500 4 From: "Mark Buda" <buda@tabasco.zko.dec.no.spam.com>5 Subject: Re: Alternatives to "DEC LMF PAK GEN V1.3" ? 2 Message-ID: <8rsJ9.21$ZN2.809144@news.cpqcorp.net>  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:3DE8A787.3B2CD548@aaa.com... F > > That specific tool isn't available on Alpha.  However, if you're a DSPPF > > member you can get a PAKGEN license and generate license PAKs with newer G > > versions of OpenVMS (I think 7.2 or higher).  If you really want to  continueF > > using the old PAKGEN stuff, you can VEST it and it works.  I'm not sure of  > > the legal issues involved.  E I tried to send you the PAKGEN documentation in PDF format via email,  but your email is invalid...   mark   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:13:14 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Andrew repats his same old FUD 3 Message-ID: <vjeoywemPH9+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3DF5B755.1080306@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  > Real-Time ???? > 5 > Really describe how OpenVMS's support for real time  > differs from say Solaris's.   H    1)  Define real-time.  I know of at least 3 definitions, one of which(       is peculiar to spacecraft control.  /    When I say real-time I mean:                 .       1) likely to have a high interrupt rate H       2) the existence of an I/O stream which in completely unbuffered, H       	 if you don't keep up with it data is lost and by definition the        	 application has failed  F    We use both Solaris and VMS (as well as others) for these types of E    applictions.  For Solaris we must have a dedicated system on no or G    an isolated network.  For VMS we can do anything else we want on the F    same system at the same time, as long as we get competing real-timeD    processes straightened out.  This despite using processors on newD    Suns that should outperform our old VAXen by at least an order ofD    magnitude.  Why can't Solaris keep up with all that horsepower to    help it out?    > Security.  > 6 > If your evidence for OpenVMS's security pre-eminence4 > is its Cert advisory count then you just blew your > argument.   D    And if you have a better source you know it's true despite CERT's    shortcomings.  9 > Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.   D    Can't be beat.  Scales fully from desktop to large collections of    mainframes.   > Performance ditto   D    Depends a lot on the hardware.  SPARC cannot be relied on to beat	    Alpha.   
 > Price ditto       You get's what you pay for.   > Available applications ditto      Got all that we need.  0 > Support for current programming and deployment > platforms ditto   1    It is the programming and deployment platform.    > 0 > Job prospects for people who think like you do& > and don't skill up in something else  H    Got lots of skill and lots of jobs.  Why should anyone want to becomeE    just another run of the mill eunichs programmer?  They're a dime a 	    dozen.   2 > Vendor support or indifference depending on your
 > perspective   8    Comes and goes, like Sun's support of Solaris on '86.  2 > Close vs open, I don't mean the old open systems1 > argument but a vendor who is open to input from 4 > customers about the direction in which they should > be going with the OS.   E    Never saw Sun listen to a customer.  Took them decades just to get F    to an openly accepted portable windowing system.  Sun kept claiming@    OpenWindows was one and our X11 code kept failing to compile.  5 > Like it or not the OS is only as good as its parts, 4 > OpenVMS has some very good parts, it also has some4 > terrible parts and overall you would have to judge > it as being adequate.d  E    The OS itself has no terrible parts.  It's surrounded by some pooro0    parts.  Andrew wants to be one of the latter.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:10:23 +0000S' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyb+ Subject: Re: Andrew repats his same old FUDt, Message-ID: <3DF7555F.80409@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:Z > In article <3DF5B755.1080306@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >>Real-Time ???? >>5 >>Really describe how OpenVMS's support for real timef >>differs from say Solaris's.  >  > J >    1)  Define real-time.  I know of at least 3 definitions, one of which* >       is peculiar to spacecraft control. > 1 >    When I say real-time I mean:                r0 >       1) likely to have a high interrupt rate J >       2) the existence of an I/O stream which in completely unbuffered, J >       	 if you don't keep up with it data is lost and by definition the   >       	 application has failed > H >    We use both Solaris and VMS (as well as others) for these types of G >    applictions.  For Solaris we must have a dedicated system on no or I >    an isolated network.  For VMS we can do anything else we want on thenH >    same system at the same time, as long as we get competing real-timeF >    processes straightened out.  This despite using processors on newF >    Suns that should outperform our old VAXen by at least an order ofF >    magnitude.  Why can't Solaris keep up with all that horsepower to >    help it out?  > 8 You are going to have to be more specific, are you using8 the Solaris real time scheduler class for you processes.8 Are you using mlock to lock your real time process pages into memory etc etc ?a4 Are you using threads and if so what scheduling have you used for the threads.s7 I worked on a SCADA system a few years ago with Solaris 5 and a much older SPARC platform and the behaviour youb5 describe wasn't an issue for the systems we deployed.o     >  >>Security.o >>6 >>If your evidence for OpenVMS's security pre-eminence4 >>is its Cert advisory count then you just blew your >>argument.e >  > F >    And if you have a better source you know it's true despite CERT's >    shortcomings. >    Really  2 Sun is open about Solaris's security vunerabilties8 and there are at least 10x the number of Solaris systems7 installed worldwide with easy access to Solaris source.r  7 Historically OpenVMS security vunerabilites havn't beenn6 reported and it has a much much smaller customer base.  6 In addition the buffer overflow security vunerabilites5 can effect both Solaris and OpenVMS despite claims to 3 the contrary made by certain posters to this group.    > 9 >>Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.V >  > F >    Can't be beat.  Scales fully from desktop to large collections of >    mainframes. >   , Provide some actual examples with workloads.   >  >>Performance dittoS >  > F >    Depends a lot on the hardware.  SPARC cannot be relied on to beat >    Alpha.s >   ; Really so come up with some examples apart from SPECint ands= SPECfp that show that this is true. The majority of published ; benchmarks from Sun and Compaq since the 8400 generation off8 systems are in SPARCs favour not Alpha's. Before you try9 though remember that this is a well trodden road that hasu5 ended in failure for, Bob, Rob, Kerry and the rest ofE
 the choir.     > J >    Got lots of skill and lots of jobs.  Why should anyone want to becomeG >    just another run of the mill eunichs programmer?  They're a dime an >    dozen.  >   0 This may be true in you but it clearly isn't the) experience of many posters to this group.t     > 2 >>Vendor support or indifference depending on your
 >>perspective  >  > : >    Comes and goes, like Sun's support of Solaris on '86. >   5 No, it goes it hasn't come back as you know perfectlyp well.e   Regardsi Andrew Harrisonm   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:21:12 GMTv- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)[( Subject: ANN: New utilities FDEL and SKL1 Message-ID: <3df765bd.396209489@news.process.com>   @ Mark Oakley has contributed two brand-new applications to my VMS freeware archives:      o FDEL -- Fast File Deletee  C      FDEL (Fast File Delete) performs a fast delete for directories ;      that have large numbers of files.  Be sure to read thet?      documentation files.  FDEL works on OpenVMS Alpha V6.2 and       higher.      o SKL -- Show Known Links  =      SKL displays the node IDS (known links) in a DECnet/Plus-@      environment.  This package includes a slow DCL-only version&      and a faster C/DCL combo version.  @ In theory, theses program would work on VAX, but their C sources@ currently depend on recent versions of DEC C for Alpha, and someE backporting would be required for VAX.  Thanks to Mark for submittingo the utilities!   http://www.process.com/openvms/   4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/fdel.zip3 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/skl.zip19 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/fdel.zipu8 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/skl.zip0 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/fdel.zip/ ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/skl.zip 5 http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/fdel.zip 4 http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/skl.zip   and the other usual mirrors.     Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/< New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:49:12 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>e Subject: Re: another partner$ Message-ID: <3df77a95$1@news.si.com>  E >XLNarchive is a PC-based data archiving system written for speed andk simplicity.s  - XLN's web page says the above, but also says:o  " >Data Transformation Requirements:    H >o Runs under the OpenVMS operating system version 6.2-1b and higher for Alpha and VAX processors.n  K I'm having a hard time resolving these two statements.  Does XLNarchive run9 on VMS or not? -- tA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comaA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com-= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent0< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:22:45 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n$ Subject: Re: Another Porting Problem3 Message-ID: <aj+4vqHp5zH7@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  U In article <00A18321.D2050FAF@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:. >      .entry $unit_name >      ....  >      ....pC >      calls #0,1$	; call routine 1$ and return to next instruction  > 1$:  .word 0 >      ....- >      ....1 >      blss Return >   K    Now I think I get it.  Looks like your expecting someone to do a RET to dL    go along with the CALLS.  The CALLS is going to start executing the code L    after ".word 0" ending in "blss Return".  By the original poster's claim N    to be putting on an extra stack frame I assumed "Return" labeled some code 8    which returned to the $unit_name's caller, not to $1.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:25:56 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>? Subject: Call for participation in an European VMS experts teamM& Message-ID: <3DF64DD4.7000603@Free.fr>  P Well, I'm working these days on a project which seems more and more complex and Q bigger every day. Looks like we will need a bunch of VMSers with high experience  Q in Pascal, Fortran IV PDP/RSX11M (yes, I said that), Fortran 77, Rdb, FMS, TDMS, .M DECforms and that's all for the moment (afaik). All these old timmers should  M have started around the 1986/90 era and speak at least English :-) French is 5M *not* a must, but knowledge in C/ C++ and real-time processing is (remember:  - ASTs, event flags and mailbox communication?)h  N If you are interested, please apply via eMail. Do not ask for rates, I do not Q know yet, but I need to find around 20 folks in a one month time. Position is in -& France. Load should be one year or so.   Please forward.r Thanks,i   D. -- r4    -------------------------------------------------3 MORANDI Consultants - http://Didier.Morandi.Free.frn1    19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France..3 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax : +33 (0)5 6154 1928 3 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans.c3 --------------------------------------------------- 3 Anti-publicit : enlever ".nospam" pour me rpondreS   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 06:49:15 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>" Subject: Re: checksum is not valid6 Message-ID: <20021211064915.28981.qmail@nym.alias.net>  G On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:t >"Doc.Cypher" wrote: >> n7 >> On 10 Dec 2002, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:r >> yK >> >  I had *thought* that the hobbyist program was providing a DCL commandnM >> >  procedure containing the license PAKs, and that you could simply invokegL >> >  the procedure to load the licenses.  (If you are entering the PAK dataI >> >  manually, I have apparently recalled this entirely incorrectly. :-)  >> aL >> Yes, licenses are provided as DCL scripts. Problem is... You can't alwaysK >> get them into the machine to run them due to a chicken and egg scenario.M  : <snip getting licenses into system with terminal emulator>  J Sometimes you'd be quicker typing in the license than looking for a serial cable.     Doc. -- m6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:04:05 -0500e! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>c" Subject: RE: checksum is not validK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BAE@rlghncst964.usps.gov>S  ( Depends on what you've got to work with-0 I save the emails to text, FTP them to a VMS box* and put them on an ODS-2 formatted floppy.  - Barring the ability to do that, I've manuallyo1 typed in the VMS license, the UCX [TCPIP for the s4 uninitiated], DW-Motif (if necessary) and then FTPd 1 the layered products file to the destination box.)   WWWebb      G On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  >"Doc.Cypher" wrote: >>7 >> On 10 Dec 2002, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:t >>K >> >  I had *thought* that the hobbyist program was providing a DCL command.F >> >  procedure containing the license PAKs, and that you could simply invokeL >> >  the procedure to load the licenses.  (If you are entering the PAK dataI >> >  manually, I have apparently recalled this entirely incorrectly. :-)  >>L >> Yes, licenses are provided as DCL scripts. Problem is... You can't alwaysK >> get them into the machine to run them due to a chicken and egg scenario.7  : <snip getting licenses into system with terminal emulator>  J Sometimes you'd be quicker typing in the license than looking for a serial cable.     Doc. --6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ========================  William W. Webb / DSSC/RLM, USPS OpenVMS Support Services& 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616-2800: 919.874.3043 <FirstInitialDotLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:41 -05008! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>  Subject: Debugging to tunesuK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BAF@rlghncst964.usps.gov>F  . from today's column in The Objective American:$ [ http://www.objectiveamerican.com ]    Scroll down near bottom of page.   Debugging to tunes  D According to a recent Science News report, British researchers have B discovered that it's easier for programmers to debug computers if ? they have the help of melodies. The scientists have managed to lG substantially improve debugging by first converting programs to music. pG The bugs in the programs come out as off-key or otherwise out-of-place  F notes, according to James L. Alty of Loughborough University and Paul E Vickers of Northumbria University. So far, the experiments have only pB taken place in the Pascal programming language. The effort sounds G worthwhile. Software bugs cost the world billions of dollars annually; nE $60 billion in the US alone. If curious, you can hear samples of the t work by clicking here   = [ http://computing.unn.ac.uk/staff/cgpv1/caitlin/phd1.htm ]. m   EGR         ========================  William W. Webb / DSSC/RLM, USPS OpenVMS Support Services& 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616-2800: 919.874.3043 <FirstInitialDotLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:42:35 +0000 (UTC)t. From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> Subject: Re: Debugging to tunes-, Message-ID: <at7teb$h6h$1@reader1.panix.com>  F On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:41 -0500, VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> wrote:0 > from today's column in The Objective American:& > [ http://www.objectiveamerican.com ] > Debugging to tunesF > According to a recent Science News report, British researchers have D > discovered that it's easier for programmers to debug computers if A > they have the help of melodies. The scientists have managed to sI > substantially improve debugging by first converting programs to music. :I > The bugs in the programs come out as off-key or otherwise out-of-place  H > notes, according to James L. Alty of Loughborough University and Paul G > Vickers of Northumbria University. So far, the experiments have only yD > taken place in the Pascal programming language. The effort sounds I > worthwhile. Software bugs cost the world billions of dollars annually; .G > $60 billion in the US alone. If curious, you can hear samples of the   > work by clicking here ? > [ http://computing.unn.ac.uk/staff/cgpv1/caitlin/phd1.htm ]. d   Believe it or not:E In 1970 I was a graduate student at the Univ of Chicago, Information pB Science department.  In the 1960's they had built the MANIAC III, G which was still used by students.  The jump instruction was wired to a oC speaker.  Every time the computer executed a jump, the speaker was  D "clicked".  In fact, jumps usually occured often enough so that the A clicks became tones, and a program execution became a (sometimes -@ bizarre) tune.  In fact, programmers got used to their programs B sounding a certain way as they executed, and strange sounds could ' often clue them in to program problems.D  F Easley Blackwood, a professor of music at U of C, also a composer and G pianist, used the MANIAC III to demonstrate different types of tunings eE and tonality which could not be reproduced on any musical instrument.n  @ (And the MANIAC III had very large CRT's (the housing was about < 3' wide by 6' deep by 4' high) attached to it with built in B symbols for ICBMS (supposedly surplus from the DEW line).  They'd C programmed the computer to play a space wars like game using these n CRT's.)o   "Everything old is new again"?   -- n7 Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)t   ------------------------------   Date: 11 DEC 2002 18:02:58 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>  Subject: Re: Debugging to tunest2 Message-ID: <11DEC02.18025872@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  F In a previous article, Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> wrote:H > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:41 -0500, VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> wrote:2 > > from today's column in The Objective American:( > > [ http://www.objectiveamerican.com ] > > Debugging to tunesH > > According to a recent Science News report, British researchers have F > > discovered that it's easier for programmers to debug computers if C > > they have the help of melodies. The scientists have managed to -K > > substantially improve debugging by first converting programs to music. oK > > The bugs in the programs come out as off-key or otherwise out-of-place MJ > > notes, according to James L. Alty of Loughborough University and Paul I > > Vickers of Northumbria University. So far, the experiments have only  F > > taken place in the Pascal programming language. The effort sounds K > > worthwhile. Software bugs cost the world billions of dollars annually; lI > > $60 billion in the US alone. If curious, you can hear samples of the s > > work by clicking here A > > [ http://computing.unn.ac.uk/staff/cgpv1/caitlin/phd1.htm ]. l >  a > Believe it or not:G > In 1970 I was a graduate student at the Univ of Chicago, Information :D > Science department.  In the 1960's they had built the MANIAC III, I > which was still used by students.  The jump instruction was wired to a )E > speaker.  Every time the computer executed a jump, the speaker was :F > "clicked".  In fact, jumps usually occured often enough so that the C > clicks became tones, and a program execution became a (sometimes >B > bizarre) tune.  In fact, programmers got used to their programs D > sounding a certain way as they executed, and strange sounds could ) > often clue them in to program problems.>  A At about the same time I was using a LINC-8 (PDP-8 - LINC hybrid,>B predecessor to the PDP-12).  The high-order bit of the accumulatorB was wired to a speaker.  The more frequently that bit changed, theE higher the pitch.  I did, in fact, learn to recognize the way certainpG programs sounded.  Infinite loops in particular were easy to recognize.'  H > Easley Blackwood, a professor of music at U of C, also a composer and I > pianist, used the MANIAC III to demonstrate different types of tunings  G > and tonality which could not be reproduced on any musical instrument.w  D We had a few programs from somewhere (not me) that played "music" on the LINC-8.m    > "Everything old is new again"?  D I hope so - 'cause talking about a job I held 30 years ago certainly makes me feel old!   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV*H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:17:45 -0500s* From: The Scarlet Wombat <coconut@mva.net> Subject: DFU report questionsl= Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021211131714.009de820@mail.mva.net>d  I We're sort of slow around here.  I installed the freeware version of DFU r/ the other day on an Alpha 1000 running VMS 7.1.h  K The fragmentation index seems to have little correlation with reality.  It iJ can change from one day to the next, by a very great deal.  I can see how E this might happen, but wonder if it is even a reliable guide to disk w fragmentation?  K I have seen instances when the average fragments per file are 1.02 and the sH fragmentation index is 3.5, then on an identical disk, a shadowed 18 gb I scsi drive, the average fragments per file are greater, but the index is *G lower.  I'm sure the algorithm is more complicated than I am giving it -K credit for being.  But, if the numbers can vary widely from one day to the rL next, how can you rely on the information to determine when a compaction is 
 necessary.  $ All thoughts are welcome and thanks.   Dan Graham 0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:27:27 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o# Subject: EV7 Performance benchmarksn8 Message-ID: <ok4evu49vo0eoeb6mak5uig7is8f8u8hcb@4ax.com>  6 Following was just posted to comp.arch by Paul DeMone:   Forwarded Message  ===================t  B Here's a brief performance report for a 1.2 GHz, 16 CPU EV7 system< written by some researchers at the Los Alamos national labs.  5 http://www.c3.lanl.gov/par_arch/pubs/LAUR-02-4850.pdft  > Here is the reported bandwidth and latency of the EV7's cache/ memory hierarchy:n   L1: 7.77 GB/s, 2 cyclesr L2: 6.20 GB/s, 12 cycles  local mem: 4.60 GB/s, 106 cycles& remote mem: ~3.6 GB/s, 162-290 cycles.     --B Paul W. DeMone     The 801 experiment SPARCed an ARMs race of EPICC Kanata, Ontario    proportions to put more PRECISION and POWER intopE pdemone@igs.net    architectures with MIPSed results but ALPHA's well "                    that ends well. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 04:33:19 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a' Subject: Re: EV7 Performance benchmarks 3 Message-ID: <Asp40tX7lrRW@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  ` In article <ok4evu49vo0eoeb6mak5uig7is8f8u8hcb@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:8 > Following was just posted to comp.arch by Paul DeMone: >  > Forwarded Messaged > ===================  > D > Here's a brief performance report for a 1.2 GHz, 16 CPU EV7 system> > written by some researchers at the Los Alamos national labs. > 7 > http://www.c3.lanl.gov/par_arch/pubs/LAUR-02-4850.pdf  > @ > Here is the reported bandwidth and latency of the EV7's cache/ > memory hierarchy:a >  > L1: 7.77 GB/s, 2 cyclest > L2: 6.20 GB/s, 12 cycles" > local mem: 4.60 GB/s, 106 cycles( > remote mem: ~3.6 GB/s, 162-290 cycles.  F So can (and will) someone give the corresponding numbers for an ES45 ?  M (Yes, I realize there will only be one set of statistics for memory latency.)9   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:48:19 -0500*0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>% Subject: Re: File update notificationi/ Message-ID: <3DF66F2C.63791F76@vl.videotron.ca>n   Earl Lakia wrote: I > Someone had mentioned ACLs on a directory for determing when a file wase9 > placed in a directory, could something like this work? s  H You can have an alarm ACE that will trigger an alarm whenver the file isM accessed (opened). However, if the OBDC server has teh file constantly openede< and just does read/writes to it, that won't be of much help.  N If you have access to the server app, the easiest would be to add code to sendG a mailbox message to your app to tell it it has received a transaction.T   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:58:04 -0000i* From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>( Subject: Re: Help! VMS 7.2 boot problems6 Message-ID: <at726b$11c426$1@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>  0 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote in message$ news:at3evd$sr8$7@web1.cup.hp.com... >-D > In article <La2cnW2NdvPzzWygXTWcqg@speakeasy.net>, "Timothy Stark"$ <sword7nospam@speakeasy.org> writes:E > :I tried to boot my old VMS 7.2 system but it hung forever after itd	 announceds > :the OpenVMS banner.J > :With my Hobbyist CD, I successfully installed and booted the fresh copy of# > :OpenVMS 7.2 without any problem.wL > :Does anyone have similar experinece or any working-around solution to get my/ > :old copy of OpenVMS 7.2 system disk to boot?p >aH >   There is no particularly simple way of determining the cause of thisH >   hang from what was provided here, unfortunately.  (You have not told> >   us if this is VAX or Alpha or the platform, for instance.) >hF >   If you wish to persist in this effort of reconstituting this olderH >   system disk, I'd first try to perform a conversational bootstrap andH >   then a USE DEFAULT operation to load the default parameters, and I'dI >   then clean out MODPARAMS.DAT and re-AUTOGEN the system.  I would alsotD >   consider performing a BACKUP and a restore, rewriting the entireH >   contents of the target system disk -- this BACKUP step also gets youE >   a BACKUP copy of the system disk, should you decide to change theoC >   configuration or the system parameter settings with the SYSBOOTe3 >   command USE DEFAULT or other such commands. :-)  >dE >   Obviously, I am guessing that this problem is due to a disk blockm6 >   problem or due to bogus system parameter settings. >e >X( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------aL >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------nG >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comi >t  2 If it is an Alpha, you can try booting -fl 0,30000L This will give you an overload of debug info during boot, but should help to! isolate the cause of the problem.e     -- John Travell       ----& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.426 / Virus Database: 239 - Release Date: 02/12/2002d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:57:50 -0500t" From: "Hal Kuff" <Kuff@Tessco.Com>4 Subject: Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mountO Message-ID: <E4C719674FB8C2A2.FB4518A21DFCB0B6.2539303622E6209D@lp.airnews.net>p  K     Thanxs.. actually I was looking for the total number of units publishedi by an HSG80.J `that a 7.2-2 and/or 7.3-1 node can see...  I think there was a limitation at one time of 30?        8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:4S3V6xpzrLVi@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > In articleI <DE2138BCF75EFAD9.FE23913E694B0C72.337E5775458A9890@lp.airnews.net>, "Halr  Kuff" <kuff@comcast.net> writes: > >tG > >     Unfer V72.2-2 how many HSG80 disks can a Alpha mount?  Did thate changeJ > > under 7.3-1 ... I'm looking at volume shadowing across two San fabrics andhK > > the number of HSG80 targets obviously would double from what it is now.a > >  > >r >sI > With shadow TIMA for 7.2-x (enhanced volume shadowing) I belive you gety9 > 7.3 shadow functionality but would have to dig that up.o >p% > Here is what you could do with 7.3:p >c > L http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/731FINAL/5423/5423pro_001.html#index_x_34 > % > 1.4.1 Maximum Number of Shadow SetsS >nJ > You can mount a maximum of 500 disks in two- or three-member shadow sets on aF > standalone system or in an OpenVMS Cluster system. A limit of 10,000
 single membertH > shadow sets is allowed on a standalone system or on an OpenVMS Cluster system.nK > Dismounted shadow sets, unused shadow sets, and shadow sets with no writed bitmapshL > allocated to them are included in this total. These limits are independent ofG > controller and disk type. The shadow sets can be mounted as public ork privatey
 > volumes. >, > Robt >e   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 10:37:32 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e4 Subject: Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mount3 Message-ID: <5SF3xcnV$XIk@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  t In article <E4C719674FB8C2A2.FB4518A21DFCB0B6.2539303622E6209D@lp.airnews.net>, "Hal Kuff" <Kuff@Tessco.Com> writes:M >     Thanxs.. actually I was looking for the total number of units published 
 > by an HSG80sL > `that a 7.2-2 and/or 7.3-1 node can see...  I think there was a limitation > at one time of 30? >   4 	128 LUNS per storage system.  See footnotes on page 	91:  b http://www.hp.com/products1/storage/products/san/fibreswitches/SAN_Design_RefGuide-AA-RMPNE-TE.pdf   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:57:55 -0800h, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>7 Subject: Re: How many messages/second can a CI rail do?n5 Message-ID: <at7g94$111cui$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>r  7 "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote in messageh/ news:at4tqt$10m4hi$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de...rK > management asked the obvious question, is that too high a rate?  How many # > messages/second can a CI rail do?e >eK I'll answer my own question.  I set up a test case where I had 5 gs140's ine
 a ci cluster.lJ I had a file who's lock tree was mastered on one of the nodes.  I adjusted the J ci circuit connections so that the four other nodes were all communicating toJ that node using one rail (out of 6). (using the Move RemoteNode connectionC program we had received from CPQ).  Also set pe1 so no remastering.G  J I then used Keith Parris's "lotsalox" program to enq and deq null locks onL that file.  (thanks Keith).  I fired off more and more of these and when theI incoming lock request ate didn't increase anymore I figured I had reachedeL the limit.  Note that there was (virtually) no I/O traffic on the ci.  Limit+ appears to be between 15K and 16k a second.i  C So I did have a ci saturation problem and we are considering how tot address it.p   Jims  ? p.s. please please please have lan fastpath support in 7.3-2 soe. we can switch to gige for scs traffic.  please   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:07:21 GMTi From: lbohan@dbc..spamless..comt2 Subject: Re: Independent Consultants + OpenVMS.org8 Message-ID: <0dscvuodqdpcp1d8gqodqbrjgigphi1p22@4ax.com>  C On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:05:34 -0700, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>- wrote:  J >People can drive around in all the 140hp cracker boxes they want.  As forJ >me, I'll wave from the window of my SUV or my 13-ton motorhome going downC >the highway.  Betcha I'll survive more accidents than they will...   : Well now, if that's really true, you must be one of those B careful SUV drivers who drives well below the posted speed limit, 8 and maintains a longer than average following distance, ; in order to compensate for his vehicle's poor handling and s long braking distances ...  5 A rare bird indeed;  I've yet to see even one of 'em  9 in Colorado,  (even on Monument Hill during an ice-storm)u  B >But at any rate, could we do something silly like go back to someG >VMS-related topic, and not waste the bandwidth of this group on topics  >like this?-  
 Naaaaaah ....-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:38:20 -0500n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: Info-VAX only access (was: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...) ..</ Message-ID: <3DF66CD5.A8CD2C83@vl.videotron.ca>n   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:eG > Okay, I use a Windows client called X-News. Whenever a new message is K > posted it first examines the References: header in an effort to determinew+ > where in the thread to place the message.   N I don't bother with any of that. I just force the news client to display postsM in the order received. This way, I just scroll down the list of messages. AndoN when there is a topic I am not interested in, I just doN't click on posts that have that topic.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:27:03 -0500S* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>, Subject: Is a process bound to only one CPU?5 Message-ID: <eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>t  1 I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:  1 GOTO 1H the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating that it only
 uses one CPU.   K What controls that (sysgen parameter, call to system service, etc) or whereo is it explained in the doc?    Thanks!i   --   SyltremSI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) 8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:37:25 -0700 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?0 Message-ID: <G4IJ9.16$CC2.25458@news.uswest.net>  K Processes are made up of one or more processing threads.  A thread can only K be on only a single processor at a time.  Unless you do some serious systemrG library work, VMS Basic programs run in a single thread, thus VMS Basica3 programs can only get a single processor at a time.l  
 Mike Ober.  5 "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote in messagel/ news:eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...p3 > I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:w
 > 1 GOTO 1J > the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating that it only > uses one CPU.h >hG > What controls that (sysgen parameter, call to system service, etc) ora whereT > is it explained in the doc?  >e	 > Thanks!t >  > -- >n	 > SyltremgK > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)o: > To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address >  >u >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:49:01 -0500n* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?5 Message-ID: <QeIJ9.20671$H67.93641@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>a  E After thinking about it for a good minute or two, it makes sense thatXI sequential processing (like my example) cannot be made to run faster than  the speed of a single CPU.L But will the same CPU handle the work for the whole duration of the process?   Thanks --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)d8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address  K "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> a crit dans le message de0+ news: G4IJ9.16$CC2.25458@news.uswest.net... H > Processes are made up of one or more processing threads.  A thread can onlyF > be on only a single processor at a time.  Unless you do some serious systemI > library work, VMS Basic programs run in a single thread, thus VMS Basice5 > programs can only get a single processor at a time.i >r > Mike Ober. >s7 > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote in messagea1 > news:eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... 5 > > I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:  > > 1 GOTO 1L > > the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating that it only > > uses one CPU.r > >hI > > What controls that (sysgen parameter, call to system service, etc) or  > wheren > > is it explained in the doc?p > >t > > Thanks!d > >  > > -- > >o > > SyltremdC > > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - enS	 franais)u< > > To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address > >r > >w > >  >a >h   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:18:34 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?0 Message-ID: <00A18487.246265E9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:2 >I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:	 >1 GOTO 1eI >the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating that it onlye >uses one CPU.  H Yup.  A single thread (here an infinite loop) will run on one processor.G If you want to consume both (or more) processors, then you need to gives* both (or more) processors something to do.  ! Try something along the lines of:C  - CREATE_THREAD(Thread_A,INFINITE_LOOP_ROUTINE) - CREATE_THREAD(Thread_B,INFINITE_LOOP_ROUTINE)      --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMd            t5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:17:42 -0500i$ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?J Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492AF08@lespaul.process.com>   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Syltrem [mailto:syltremzulu@videotron.ca]n, > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:49 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 2 > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? >   > > > Syltrem's example snippet: > > > 1 GOTO 1 > G > After thinking about it for a good minute or two, it makes sense that @ > sequential processing (like my example) cannot be made to run 
 > faster thans > the speed of a single CPU.? > But will the same CPU handle the work for the whole duration d > of the process?a >   @ By default, no, the process *can* move around to a different CPUE each time it is rescheduled.  It is possible, though, to set affinitym for a particular CPU.   9 I'll admit not knowing all the details, but I don't thinkl: an example like yours would necessarily benifit from being8 rescheduled on the same CPU (assuming it must be removed@ from execution.)  I don't think saving process context from one @ CPU and loading it on another is any more expensive than loading> on the same CPU (unless my knowledge on the topic is obsolete./ I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.)f  = In your example, I suspect you saw activity mostly on one CPU = because at quantum end, there was usually no other computablee@ process, and hence no need to remove the process from execution.   - Mike Duffy        ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:24:42 GMTS" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?0 Message-ID: <00A18487.FFD7BD4E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <QeIJ9.20671$H67.93641@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:F >After thinking about it for a good minute or two, it makes sense thatJ >sequential processing (like my example) cannot be made to run faster than >the speed of a single CPU.eM >But will the same CPU handle the work for the whole duration of the process?   M Unless you specifically declare an affinity to a processor the general answerr would be no.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM-            L5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:23:15 -0500r$ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?J Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492AF09@lespaul.process.com>   > -----Original Message-----B > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG]- > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:19 AM/ > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comf2 > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? >  > 8 > In article <eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, . > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:4 > >I thought not, but when I run this Basic program: > >1 GOTO 1l? > >the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating w > that it only > >uses one CPU. > @ > Yup.  A single thread (here an infinite loop) will run on one  > processor.  A Even after it's removed from execution for one reason or another?t= If so, can you explain how the previous CPU is determined andaF why it's better to come back to the same CPU?  Is there some mechanism= that makes loading the process context faster on the previous0 CPU?   -Mike0      ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:29:15 -0500a$ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?J Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492AF0B@lespaul.process.com>  7 Please ignore my last post below, I read Brian's answere% and applied it to the wrong question.r   -Miket   > -----Original Message------ > From: Mike Duffy [mailto:duffy@process.com]r- > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:23 AMN > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 2 > Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? >  >  > > -----Original Message-----D > > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG]/ > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:19 AM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 4 > > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? > >  > > : > > In article <eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, 0 > > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:6 > > >I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:
 > > >1 GOTO 1lA > > >the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating c > > that it only > > >uses one CPU. > > B > > Yup.  A single thread (here an infinite loop) will run on one  > > processor. > C > Even after it's removed from execution for one reason or another? ? > If so, can you explain how the previous CPU is determined and H > why it's better to come back to the same CPU?  Is there some mechanism? > that makes loading the process context faster on the previoust > CPU? >  > -Mike  >  t >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:20:01 -0700e6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?0 Message-ID: <llLJ9.31$CC2.63187@news.uswest.net>  L The general answer is no.  However, VMS will attempt to keep a thread on theL last processor it was on based on the theory that some of that thread's dataE or instruction stream is still in the processor cache during the next H scheduling cycle.  This is called "soft affinity".  Alpha VMS also has aJ "hard affinity" option that can be set on a per-process basis or even on a< system wide basis for all new processes (emulating VAX VMS).  
 Mike Ober.  5 "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote in message / news:QeIJ9.20671$H67.93641@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...hG > After thinking about it for a good minute or two, it makes sense thatuK > sequential processing (like my example) cannot be made to run faster thanl > the speed of a single CPU.E > But will the same CPU handle the work for the whole duration of thee process? >  > Thanks > -- >d	 > Syltremo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:21:04 -0700o6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?0 Message-ID: <kmLJ9.32$CC2.63288@news.uswest.net>  1 "Mike Duffy" <Duffy@process.com> wrote in messagerD news:63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492AF09@lespaul.process.com... > > -----Original Message-----D > > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG]/ > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:19 AMS > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-4 > > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU? > >s > >h9 > > In article <eWHJ9.20668$H67.93638@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>,l0 > > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:6 > > >I thought not, but when I run this Basic program:
 > > >1 GOTO 1.@ > > >the process only goes up to 99% CPU consumption, indicating > > that it only > > >uses one CPU. > >>A > > Yup.  A single thread (here an infinite loop) will run on onem > > processor. >rC > Even after it's removed from execution for one reason or another?>? > If so, can you explain how the previous CPU is determined andAH > why it's better to come back to the same CPU?  Is there some mechanism? > that makes loading the process context faster on the previousb > CPU? >o > -Mikel >s  I Part of the thread execution data block (not sure of the actual VMS term)MB contains the processor ID of the last processor the thread was on.  
 Mike Ober.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 11:20:58 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?3 Message-ID: <702UsnV9$buv@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  b In article <QeIJ9.20671$H67.93641@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:G > After thinking about it for a good minute or two, it makes sense thatAK > sequential processing (like my example) cannot be made to run faster than  > the speed of a single CPU.  @ That is the problem DEC had when they were still trying to build@ faster VAX systems. They kept telling people to use clusters and@ parallel processors, but that does not help on sequential tasks.  N > But will the same CPU handle the work for the whole duration of the process?  C Ideally it would, since that minimizes cache invalidation.  WhetheraB it can or not depends on how many other processes contend for CPU,> what their priority is, and what VMS controls you have used to affect this.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:36:14 +0100n# From: "gilles CASTEL" <gci@free.fr>n  Subject: KFDDA for VAX 4000 M1083 Message-ID: <at5qc2$cao$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>>  
     Hello,  @ I'm looking for informations (hardware, parts, cable, config...)! about KFDDA in VAX 4000 Model 108p   does any one can help me please   
 gilles CASTELt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:18:24 -0500 0 From: "Alan Boyles" <alan.boyles@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: KFDDA for VAX 4000 M108/ Message-ID: <uvebslhav84298@corp.supernews.com>o  D KFDDA-DB - Single DSSI-SCSI controller included in the 4000-108, one  additional supported per system.G The internal KFDDA is configured with an HSD10-EB on KFDDA-EB bus 0 and.J supports up to 6 RZ2x internal disk drives and up to seven when RZ2x disks* when the external HSD10 SCSI port is used.  G Sorry, there is a configuration drawing in the SOC but no way to get it, here.    Alan  . "gilles CASTEL" <gci@free.fr> wrote in message- news:at5qc2$cao$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr...5 >     Hello, >BB > I'm looking for informations (hardware, parts, cable, config...)# > about KFDDA in VAX 4000 Model 108o >c! > does any one can help me pleasee >b > gilles CASTEL  >u >n >o >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:37:31 -0500 * From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> Subject: MAIL redirectiony5 Message-ID: <kYIJ9.20674$H67.93670@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   
 Hello all!  L I would like to be able to redirect email messages to a specific person (who, changes every week) by using a logical name.  J a)    I created 2 distribution list (eventually there may be more than one person in each)f         CREATE SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS        smtp%"syltrem@ISP.NET"e%        CREATE SOMEDIR:SOMEONEELSE.DISa!        smtp%"someoneelse@ISP.NET"   E b)    I defined logical names for these mailing lists for ease of use 9        $ DEFINE/SYSTEM MAIL_SYLTREM "@SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS" B        $ DEFINE/SYSTEM MAIL_SOMEONEELSE "@SOMEDIR:SOMEONEELSE.DIS"  4 c)    Every day (or week) I re-define a logical name7        $ DEFINE /SYSTEM THE_PERSON_ON_CALL MAIL_SYLTREM '        *or* (depending on our calendar)1  ;        $ DEFINE /SYSTEM THE_PERSON_ON_CALL MAIL_SOMEONEELSEo    F From then on procedures can send emails to the person that is on call.3 Example: the BACKUP bombs out, the procedure does aoF $ MAIL SYS$INPUT:  THE_PERSON_ON_CALL /SUBJECT="BACKUP TERMINATED WITH ERROR"	 blah blahd $1   That works just fine.   J d)     But now, I also have some messages coming from those nifty peecees, with smtp protocolE         I would like to send the message to a VMS account, like this:n0         to: PERSONONCALL@vmsnodename.company.com  L         Up to here, no problem. PERSONONCALL receives the message in his VMS mailboxp  8         Now If I log on with PERSONONCALL and enter MAIL,         MAIL> SET FORWARD THE_PERSON_ON_CALL            That does not work. Why?           Example:2         $ mail sys$input PERSONONCALL /subj="test"J         %MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification '@SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS'     Thanks for help!   --   SyltremmI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)o8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:40:26 -0500u* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: MAIL redirectionu5 Message-ID: <1%IJ9.20676$H67.93679@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>t  : Sorry to reply to myself - I forgot to mention VMS version It is : OVMS 7.2-1 on Alphae   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)T8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address  E "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message de news:m* kYIJ9.20674$H67.93670@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > Hello all! >oI > I would like to be able to redirect email messages to a specific person, (who. > changes every week) by using a logical name. >aL > a)    I created 2 distribution list (eventually there may be more than one > person in each)a" >        CREATE SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS >        smtp%"syltrem@ISP.NET" ' >        CREATE SOMEDIR:SOMEONEELSE.DISt# >        smtp%"someoneelse@ISP.NET"o >iG > b)    I defined logical names for these mailing lists for ease of useM; >        $ DEFINE/SYSTEM MAIL_SYLTREM "@SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS"dD >        $ DEFINE/SYSTEM MAIL_SOMEONEELSE "@SOMEDIR:SOMEONEELSE.DIS" > 6 > c)    Every day (or week) I re-define a logical name9 >        $ DEFINE /SYSTEM THE_PERSON_ON_CALL MAIL_SYLTREMe) >        *or* (depending on our calendar)n > = >        $ DEFINE /SYSTEM THE_PERSON_ON_CALL MAIL_SOMEONEELSEt >  >-H > From then on procedures can send emails to the person that is on call.5 > Example: the BACKUP bombs out, the procedure does agH > $ MAIL SYS$INPUT:  THE_PERSON_ON_CALL /SUBJECT="BACKUP TERMINATED WITH > ERROR" > blah blahl > $< >l > That works just fine.t > L > d)     But now, I also have some messages coming from those nifty peecees, > with smtp protocolG >         I would like to send the message to a VMS account, like this:e2 >         to: PERSONONCALL@vmsnodename.company.com >sJ >         Up to here, no problem. PERSONONCALL receives the message in his VMSr	 > mailboxc >u: >         Now If I log on with PERSONONCALL and enter MAIL. >         MAIL> SET FORWARD THE_PERSON_ON_CALL >g" >         That does not work. Why? >i >         Example:4 >         $ mail sys$input PERSONONCALL /subj="test"L >         %MAIL-E-USERSPEC, invalid user specification '@SOMEDIR:MYSELF.DIS' >u >  > Thanks for help! >r > -- >s	 > Syltrem,K > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)a: > To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address >w >d >l   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:50:22 +0000 (UTC)n6 From: jloup@gailly.OmitThisWord.net (Jean-loup Gailly)0 Subject: new version of OpenVMS password cracker* Message-ID: <at81de$5u2$1@home.gailly.net>  E A new version of an OpenVMS password cracker, including Vax and Alpha @ executables, is available on my page http://gailly.net/security/ The initial annoucement wastJ http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=as0v2v%249m9%241%40home.gailly.net  F The new version is significantly faster on most machines, particularlyB on the Alpha (speed multiplied by 4). The Intel version now checks2 about 200,000 passwords per second on a 1 GHz cpu.  ? Thanks to Martin Vorlaender for providing the VMS specific codei for non blocking I/O.y   Jean-loup Gailly http://gailly.net/security/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:03:35 GMTN* From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@lythe.org.uk>" Subject: OpenVMS on Ruffian board?8 Message-ID: <slrnavde8o.t3.ejb@deliverance.lythe.org.uk>  
 Afternoon,  G I believe this Alpha system here has a Ruffian motherboard -- it seems e/ to match the description found on various FAQs:i  3 	1 64-bit PCI slot, 5 32-bit PCI slots, 1 ISA slot, 1 	onboard ethernet (tulip), 21164 CPU, 768MB RAM,  6 	onboard Symbios SCSI, IDE; it has ARCS BIOS firmware.  B All the information that I can find on this board seems to suggestE that it can't run SRM firmware, and thus VMS won't run on it. Is this  really the case?   Regards, Edward.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 01:54:37 -0500I0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?/ Message-ID: <3DF6E107.28D7AFF7@vl.videotron.ca>b   On thought:D  M In the past, both VAX and Alpha were "proprietary" in the sense that they and,$ VMS were tailor made for each other.  M When Curly killed Alpha, hoping to put VMS into "industry standard" hardware,5L that affinity between VMS and CPU dropped and it is now VMS' job to adapt to& current hardware trends in the market.  : Current market trends in the market do NOT point to IA64.   N There is currently more uncertainty about IA64 than there is with Alpha. AlphaI has sufficient installed base to require minimum vendor commitments for XsN years. IA64 could be aborted any day because there aren't any serious IA64s inM production to force multi year support commitments. The mere specualtion thateH Intel may have to follow AMD and produce a 64 bit 8086 makes IA64 a very doubtful solution.  I A 64 bit 8086 would probably outspeed IA64 fairly rapidly because it is at9 simpler architecture. If that happens, IA64 is dead meat.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:33:14 -0500e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3df63417$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DF2AD72.702E76D6@fsi.net>...n   >g) >DEC Listens? Compaq Listens? HP Listens?m >e >The testimony is unmistakable.4 >06 >Sun has demonstrated responsiveness to its user base. >eG >VMS has demonstrated ... well, you can finish that sentence, I'm sure.t >   I There is a mild difference between porting a "portable" operating system,yG written entriely in C, and VMS which wasn't written to be portable, andg> which relies on Macro-32, Bliss, and C as it's code languages.  E We do listen to our user base, but you can't always do everything for,E everyone.  Moving VMS to IA32 is certainly "possible" but it would be K expensive, and complicated.  The closest thing to a "portable" base for VMSp is the 64-bit implementation.   F And say we spent the many millions of $$$ to do it, and pulled all theI engineers off of everything else to do it - what would we have?  Would it F help our large box customers with better high CPU count boxes?  HigherJ reliability?  What?  It would provide a binary incompatable low-end is all it would do.  L We respond to market opportunities is what we do.  We invested the money andH engineers to do DII/COE because a market segment needed it.  We're doingH UNIX compatability for the same reasons - a market segment needs it.  WeG develop or pay to have developed eBusiness solutions - because a markey K segment needs it.  We're making real decisions every day, based on what our D customers are asking for - and paying for by buying our hardware and	 services..  B That is to say, real customers, spending real money, want specificF capabilities and we make the business case for investment.  So far theK investment needed to create a IA32 version of VMS has been too high for any0 potential return on it.3  J I think it's keen that Sun is collecting $20 a pop for something that costJ them relatively little to do, and I imagine the $20 doesn't cover support.+ Sounds like a cheap hobbyist program to me.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:55:50 -0500f5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3df63963$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>   David Webb wrote in message ...e >nL >Not sure if those can be considered valid objections anymore - after all we doG >have VAX hardware emulators running on IA32 which allow VMS to be run.   J The emulators, Charon, TS10, etc, are emulating the entire VAX InstructionJ Set Architecture and emulating a specific system platform.  So "modes" are* immaterial - they are part of the VAX ISP.  G >However I don't see the point of porting to IA32 (especially since thee6 >emulators exist) when IA32 has a very limited future.C >If you want to run VMS on a spare IA32 box then get one of the VAXn	 emulators. >and run it.  ? I agree entirely.  I saw the TS10 on Linux last week.  Not bad.2  I >Since I have severe doubts about the future viability of IA64 I would bes, >happier for HP to port VMS to 64bit Hammer. >e  $ Hammer is just a IA32 with a goiter.  K I have no doubts about the viability of IA64.  Its already viable.  You canlI buy systems today.  The very large systems are very near, and more are onbK the drawing table.  The chip roadmap I've seen, is better than a lot of the J speculation.  There has been a lot of investment in this chip, and I don'tI see anybody who made those investments walking away from it.  There is atSJ least one system vendor (HP) who is committed to building boxes from 1 CPUH workstations, to huge servers.  Comitted to Windows-64 (in Beta), Linux,3 HP-UX, and of course - VMS - on all of the systems.r  K Hammer is just a IA32 with a 64-bit tumor.  AMD may not survive it's birth.eD Its sole (and admittedly attractive) feature is that it can run IA32J native - and not break the Microsoft shrinkwrap market.  The question is -K will it be cheap enough and fast enough to win any significant share of the-I 1cpu Microsoft market, and will it be cheap enough and fast enough to winrL any share of the Ncpu server market - both MS and Linux.  I think Intel willF make it hard for them to win on price, and the performance will not beF *that* much better that people will pay the premium for it.  The Alpha problem in a nutshell.  I All it's hype is focused inside a very tiny community of geeks (like this K one).  I was at a trade show and could hardly find customers that knew whatuF *either* an Itanium *or* a Opteron was.  But the geeks (who are mostlyI anti-Intel anyway) think Itanium-2 sucks (even though it's pretty much uplD near the top of the performance board, and cheaper than most of it'sE competition).  So they are on this bandwagon hoping that the Hammer - J despite it being nothing but the gawd awful x86 ISA with a pituitary gland problem - will win.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:03:11 -0500r5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>p6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3df63b1c$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  @ JF Mezei wrote in message <3DF4EB57.37E9F9F3@vl.videotron.ca>... >David Webb wrote:L >> IA32 is as much on death row as ALPHA. VMS is being ported to Intel's new >> architecture IA64.  >l >fG >IA64 is not intel's "new" architecture and it looks like it will nevert become.-  % Eh?  It's Intel's.  It's new.  So eh?3  K >It is HP's proprietary architecture with a few others bending to the InteloG >blackmail and stating that they might make a few IA643 boxes later on.n >   8 Oh, I see.  This is just another "IA64 will fail" chant.  E BTW - "Blackmail" is illegal.  Can you be more specific in your legals
 charges here?i  H >Intel has admitted that IA64 woN't be a desktop chip. They have already  >downsized their dream big time. >a  J I'm pretty sure that this isn't new.  I'm also pretty sure that eventually this may change.  F >And *IF* Hammer takes off, then IA64 will truly be relegated to HP-UX TandemI >and VMS, assuming Carly isn't kicked out and they decide to stop wastingl >efforts on a losing platform. >   K It's also twice as likely that AMD will go chapter 11 by next summer givingoJ birth to a stillborn Hammer.  They should have called it "Hulk" - a x86 on& steroids - but still, it's just a x86.  G >What VMS needs is to be ported to a polular, high volume platform. And_ right  >now, IA32 is it.u >r   This is wishful thinking.a  L >Do modern 8086s running at 3ghz really still lack the 4 modes, or are theseJ >present in modern 8086s but just not used by Windows ? Are there *REALLY* someC >show stoppers that prevent VMS from being ported to today's 8086 ?t >   I Nothing is impossible with enough time, effort and money.  But aside fromnL perhaps an interesting hobbyest system, I can't see who actually buys VMS on IA32.i  C >How different will Hammer be from the 8086 ? Will it also lack thet	 adressingc >modes VMS needs ?  F I'm told (but I'm not interested enough to check) that it has 4 modes.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:36:05 +0000 (UTC)w+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)-6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?+ Message-ID: <at77v5$edd$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>6  f In article <3df63963$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >   >David Webb wrote in message ... >>M >>Not sure if those can be considered valid objections anymore - after all wei >doiH >>have VAX hardware emulators running on IA32 which allow VMS to be run. >oK >The emulators, Charon, TS10, etc, are emulating the entire VAX InstructionsK >Set Architecture and emulating a specific system platform.  So "modes" are-+ >immaterial - they are part of the VAX ISP.h >r  D However the fact that they can emulate the whole VAX instruction setL architecture argues that any "native port" of VMS to IA32 could also emulateL any required facilities which were not native to the IA32 chip architecture.  H >>However I don't see the point of porting to IA32 (especially since the7 >>emulators exist) when IA32 has a very limited future.nD >>If you want to run VMS on a spare IA32 box then get one of the VAX
 >emulators
 >>and run it.s >e@ >I agree entirely.  I saw the TS10 on Linux last week.  Not bad. > J >>Since I have severe doubts about the future viability of IA64 I would be- >>happier for HP to port VMS to 64bit Hammer.n >> >a% >Hammer is just a IA32 with a goiter.d >oL >I have no doubts about the viability of IA64.  Its already viable.  You canJ >buy systems today.  The very large systems are very near, and more are onL >the drawing table.  The chip roadmap I've seen, is better than a lot of theK >speculation.  There has been a lot of investment in this chip, and I don'teJ >see anybody who made those investments walking away from it.  There is atK >least one system vendor (HP) who is committed to building boxes from 1 CPUtI >workstations, to huge servers.  Comitted to Windows-64 (in Beta), Linux,e4 >HP-UX, and of course - VMS - on all of the systems. >   N Sorry IA64 has already been relegated to high end rather than desktop systems.3 Which means it isn't going to be industry standard.d  L We will see what happens when Hammer starts shipping. My own gut feeling is F is that Intel will bring out a 64bit 8x86 chip of their own which will; effectively kill off IA64 except as HP's proprietrary chip.PN If they don't then I think Intel will be in real trouble in a couple of years.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University  L >Hammer is just a IA32 with a 64-bit tumor.  AMD may not survive it's birth.E >Its sole (and admittedly attractive) feature is that it can run IA32rK >native - and not break the Microsoft shrinkwrap market.  The question is - L >will it be cheap enough and fast enough to win any significant share of theJ >1cpu Microsoft market, and will it be cheap enough and fast enough to winM >any share of the Ncpu server market - both MS and Linux.  I think Intel willmG >make it hard for them to win on price, and the performance will not be G >*that* much better that people will pay the premium for it.  The Alpha  >problem in a nutshell.. >-J >All it's hype is focused inside a very tiny community of geeks (like thisL >one).  I was at a trade show and could hardly find customers that knew whatG >*either* an Itanium *or* a Opteron was.  But the geeks (who are mostly-J >anti-Intel anyway) think Itanium-2 sucks (even though it's pretty much upE >near the top of the performance board, and cheaper than most of it'sdF >competition).  So they are on this bandwagon hoping that the Hammer -K >despite it being nothing but the gawd awful x86 ISA with a pituitary gland. >problem - will win. >i >  >d >l   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:00:52 +0000 (UTC)s+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)s6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?+ Message-ID: <at79dk$ejk$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   w In article <8a646952.0212101644.200d800e@posting.google.com>, jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones) writes: ] >Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message news:<01C29F77.5838D780@sulfer.icius.com>...s >p >Shane,  >OF >I believe everyone that doesn't think the IA64 will amount to much isG >missing the fact that the Alpha engineers (the selected few) are to beyE >rehired by intel to use their knowlege of the Alpha Chip to help the A >IA64 chip. This was the deal about givng the Alpha technology to C >Intel. Now rumor had it that the real reason the P3 and P4 came sooF >fast was do to the gain in knowlege of the Alpha architecture , which- >cause the Intel-DEC $700-1.5 million payoff.m >. >Daryl Jones  I Firstly anything the Alpha Engineers can do is going to be much too late.1O Secondly there isn't much they can profitably take directly from Alpha without hK fundamently redesigning IA64. Alphas RISC approach and IA64's EPIC approachy are diametrically opposed.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:14:33 +0000 (UTC)r+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)g6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?+ Message-ID: <at7a79$ejk$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>r  [ In article <3DF6BE68.DEC7CA2E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:t	 >> [snip]h >( >> - what would we have? y >m
 >A market? >oC >Ask yourself: there are more than 200 million IA32 machines in the I >world, probably 10% of that are servers of Proliant class or better. TheeG >software market for that hardware represents tens (if not hundreds) ofeE >billions of dollars annually, and still growing. VMS's share of that0: >market is - how much? (Answer just above the sig., below) >   N Just get HP to provide a means of downloading VMS from the web along with ts10M or simh. Much much cheaper than porting VMS to IA32 but achieves the same endm( - VMS running on those spare IA32 boxes.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:48:01 +0100h5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk>n6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?* Message-ID: <3df7421c@news.swissonline.ch>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message>) news:3DF6AAAD.C30261DC@vl.videotron.ca...6 > Chris Clifford wrote:tK > > services, the lock manager, etc. There is a severe shortage of good VMSn > > programmers. >aC > This is a myth. There are a whole bunch of highly experienced VMSi programmers.F > But most of them saw the sinking ship are are busy with jobs on more	 succesful I > platforms. Make VMS interesting and with a bright expanding future, andu they > would return in a second.   + This is not a myth here in Europe at least.   G But you're absolutely correct with your last statement - if there was a L bright expanding future, any half-decent ex-VMS programmer would jump at the chance to get involved again.c   - Chris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:10:13 +0100x5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk> 6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?* Message-ID: <3df74751@news.swissonline.ch>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3DF6BF72.E1DC8F7E@fsi.net...-* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:
 > > [snip]; > > Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.  >c > Excuse me? > 4 > How many nodes are supported in a Solaris cluster? >>. > How many CPUs per node does Solaris support? >m% > Sorry guy, you blew that one royal!c  K 64 nodes apparently in SunCluster. However, judging by the look of surpriseeE and delight on the Sun specialists recently after setting up a 2-node L cluster with a separation of just over 11 miles, I think the reality is very
 different.  I Also I note that unlike our 15'000 user cluster with a similar separationoL which utilises 100Mb ethernet as it's cluster interconnect, SunCluster seemsK to require gigabit ethernet for any half-decent performance. Maybe it's theFF fact that they've decided to use TCP/IP for cluster comms instead of aI highly efficient proprietary protocol, thus ended up running like an veryiL injured dog. I can understand the possible advantages in doing this but theyC are completely wiped out by the fact that Sun Cluster needs private ? interconnects for cluster comms.... so why the hell use TCP/IP?D   - Chris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:51 +0000-' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyi6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3DF7472F.9060103@nospamn.sun.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  >>[snip]9 >>Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.o >  >  > Excuse me? > 4 > How many nodes are supported in a Solaris cluster? >   2 If you use SunFire Link then its currently 8 nodes with a switch.  . If you use F15K's then you could have 98 CPU's# per node with 2 SunFire Link cards.o   Regardss Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:26:16 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?' Message-ID: <3DF6BE68.DEC7CA2E@fsi.net>i   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > [snip]5 > And say we spent the many millions of $$$ to do it,   E If it costs that much, consider sending your project managers to somee	 training.r   > and pulled all the+ > engineers off of everything else to do it   F Throw your pendulum back the other way, make sure it sticks at neitherF extreme and wait for it to settle to center. Then, you'll be where you want to be.   C Not sure why it's always one way or the other. The middle ground ise0 increasingly becoming "the road less travelled".   > - what would we have?   	 A market?   B Ask yourself: there are more than 200 million IA32 machines in theH world, probably 10% of that are servers of Proliant class or better. TheF software market for that hardware represents tens (if not hundreds) ofD billions of dollars annually, and still growing. VMS's share of that9 market is - how much? (Answer just above the sig., below)t  
 > Would itA > help our large box customers with better high CPU count boxes? e  G Focus on markets as is their due. How many hundreds of millions of suchoE systems exist in the world today? (Answer just above the sig., below)n   > Higher > reliability? l  H There's an old proverb: "that which does not kill us makes us stronger".  > > What?  It would provide a binary incompatable low-end is all > it would do.  H Given the curent lack of applications for VMS, the downside of that is - what?1  4 > We respond to market opportunities is what we do.   F Then why have not yet seen OpenVMS IA32? Exactly how is a niche marketH constituting less than 1% of the total market a greater opportunity than addessing the market-at-large?   > We invested the money anda> > engineers to do DII/COE because a market segment needed it.   G How many market segments are there? Which of them represent the bulk of?1 the EDP market in total? (Select all that apply.)n  
 > We're doing F > UNIX compatability for the same reasons - a market segment needs it.  
 Same comment.    >  We I > develop or pay to have developed eBusiness solutions - because a markeygM > segment needs it.  We're making real decisions every day, based on what ournF > customers are asking for - and paying for by buying our hardware and > services.r  < So, why was Alpha killed? How many customers requested that?  = The demand for Affordable OpenVMS is on-going. Where is that?e  E IA64 has been trying to get out of the gate for a decade plus, AlphassE are on ramp-down and VAX is extinct while IA32 CPUs are still in full-G development and production. Where is the OpenVMS to satisfy the need ofcC *THAT* "market segment" (i.e., the preponderant bulk of the currentD world-wide EDP market)?0  D > That is to say, real customers, spending real money, want specificH > capabilities and we make the business case for investment.  So far theM > investment needed to create a IA32 version of VMS has been too high for anym > potential return on it.m  G Check the numbers again... ...and again, and again, and again until your
 get right!  > Better still, stop playing with the numbers, and JUST DO IT!!!  B Your can't spend all your time at "Ready! Aim! Aim! Aim! Aim! ..."G Eventually, ya gotta Fire! One of my mentors holds that "I'd rather see F a crooked furrow than a field unplowed". That is, "Ready! Fire!", thenG Aim. You may hit nothing at first, but at least you'll hit SOMEthing  -rD eventually! Keep refining your aim while firing. Sure you'll "waste"D some rounds, but if you learn from your feedback, you'll get the aim0 right much faster than if you never fire at all!  D Rumor has it, "Emerald" came very close to actually running, even ifH "iVMS" didn't promise to be quite up to VMS's standard. Even W2K startedE life as DOS V1.0, from a certain perspective. Linus's original kernele/ was barely a shadow of the latest-and-greatest.o  G Linus didn't care where his little 386 UNIX-like kernel was headed whent? he first posted it on bulletin boards around Europe. Now it's a ) multi-billion dollar world-wide industry.   8 Some times, "nonsense", in the end, makes perfect sense!  L > I think it's keen that Sun is collecting $20 a pop for something that costL > them relatively little to do, and I imagine the $20 doesn't cover support.- > Sounds like a cheap hobbyist program to me.r  D Somehow, I think there's a lesson for VMS there, as well! AffordableF downloadable distro.'s? I'll not address that - search the archives ofA this group - it'll turn up much more than I can say, that much is. certain!  F ...and if you're looking for money to fund an IA32 port, well, see the9 earlier post! "$28 million" is what you're looking for...u   Answers:* VMS's share of the IA32 market: $zero($0).F Number of high-CPU count systems in the world: less than 400,000 (less" than 1% of the total IA32 market).  F Sorry - none of those arguments hold water, especially from a business perspective.   -- n David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:34:38 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>D6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?, Message-ID: <3df777d8_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>   David Webb wrote in message ...>< >In article <3DF6BE68.DEC7CA2E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:9 >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote:
 >>> [snip] >> >>> - what would we have?m >> >>A market?m >>D >>Ask yourself: there are more than 200 million IA32 machines in theJ >>world, probably 10% of that are servers of Proliant class or better. TheH >>software market for that hardware represents tens (if not hundreds) ofF >>billions of dollars annually, and still growing. VMS's share of that; >>market is - how much? (Answer just above the sig., below)  >> >GJ >Just get HP to provide a means of downloading VMS from the web along with ts10J >or simh. Much much cheaper than porting VMS to IA32 but achieves the same endo) >- VMS running on those spare IA32 boxes.  >n  J  I'm down with this.  I like it a lot.  It sounds like a good proposition. Really.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:42:48 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?, Message-ID: <3df779c2_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>   David Webb wrote in message ...tA >In article <3df63963$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" % <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:- >>! >>David Webb wrote in message ...2 >>>1K >>>Not sure if those can be considered valid objections anymore - after all  we >>doI >>>have VAX hardware emulators running on IA32 which allow VMS to be run.- >>L >>The emulators, Charon, TS10, etc, are emulating the entire VAX InstructionL >>Set Architecture and emulating a specific system platform.  So "modes" are, >>immaterial - they are part of the VAX ISP. >> >aE >However the fact that they can emulate the whole VAX instruction set E >architecture argues that any "native port" of VMS to IA32 could alsot emulates? >any required facilities which were not native to the IA32 chipe
 architecture.  >s  I Not really.  All it argues is that you can emulate the chip architecture, J and if that's all you want - fine.  To run native is a different kettle of fish.i  I >>>However I don't see the point of porting to IA32 (especially since thet8 >>>emulators exist) when IA32 has a very limited future.E >>>If you want to run VMS on a spare IA32 box then get one of the VAXa >>emulatorse >>>and run it. >>A >>I agree entirely.  I saw the TS10 on Linux last week.  Not bad.0 >>K >>>Since I have severe doubts about the future viability of IA64 I would be . >>>happier for HP to port VMS to 64bit Hammer. >>>f >>& >>Hammer is just a IA32 with a goiter. >>I >>I have no doubts about the viability of IA64.  Its already viable.  You- can-K >>buy systems today.  The very large systems are very near, and more are onmI >>the drawing table.  The chip roadmap I've seen, is better than a lot ofv the@L >>speculation.  There has been a lot of investment in this chip, and I don'tK >>see anybody who made those investments walking away from it.  There is atgL >>least one system vendor (HP) who is committed to building boxes from 1 CPUJ >>workstations, to huge servers.  Comitted to Windows-64 (in Beta), Linux,5 >>HP-UX, and of course - VMS - on all of the systems.n >> >CF >Sorry IA64 has already been relegated to high end rather than desktop systems.4 >Which means it isn't going to be industry standard. >   J If your definition of Industry Standard == desktop, then you are right forB the forseeable future.  It aims to be the Industry Standard ServerL architecture.  And it has a reasonable chance of doing that.  Alpha is done.J Sparc won't be able to keep up (price or performance).  Power can keep up,L but it will remain expensive.  Hammer is a threat - but it has yet to find aK system vendor to build anything but small servers - and AMD may not be able  to pull it off.   L >We will see what happens when Hammer starts shipping. My own gut feeling isG >is that Intel will bring out a 64bit 8x86 chip of their own which willn< >effectively kill off IA64 except as HP's proprietrary chip.H >If they don't then I think Intel will be in real trouble in a couple of years. >N  H I believe that Intel has already said that they have killed their x86-64L project.  However, you are right - the next couple years will tell the tale,% and all our speculation is just that.E   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 11:22:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)I6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?3 Message-ID: <a9W4s9Ry5dV5@eisner.encompasserve.org>N  d In article <3df775e0_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DF6BE68.DEC7CA2E@fsi.net>...S >>H >>Then why have not yet seen OpenVMS IA32? Exactly how is a niche marketJ >>constituting less than 1% of the total market a greater opportunity than  >>addessing the market-at-large? >> > L > VMS does not have the capabilities today to be a desktop system to competeN > with Windows on the desk - neither does Linux today even with all the peopleN > and work that has been done on it (substantially more people and effort thanN > has been available for VMS).  Nor in any pipe dream do I see that happening. >   ? 	This is a key point when folks tail off into desktop VMS wars.O= 	Last I read, Linux was less than 2% for desktops.  Maybe I'miD 	off a percent.  If the almighty Linux has a 2% desktop penetration,A 	why burn resources creating a VMS IA32 desktop?  It makes littler 	sense.    > N > We are firing.  We are building VMS for IA64.  *You* don't like that answer.K > But many customers, buying lots of hardware have told us that they are onvJ > board with it, and will be buying Itanium VMS.  Will every techno weenieL > like you and I be happy with the IA64 ISA?  No.  But I am pretty confidentK > that IA64 will be able to sell the same price/performance/capability thattK > Alpha does - ignoring the flame-fest of how good Alpha "could have been".r >     A 	Let's face it.  Many large outfits don't run at 90% utilization.a< 	You have a great deal of headroom to handle any peak comingE 	your way, (certainly don't want to be in the embarassing predicament = 	of turning away customers or having important financial runsk@ 	fail because you are out of "computing resources") you probably? 	want to get more machine for your bucks.  IA64 will be a value C 	proposition for servers.  tpmC results for HP show each additional @ 	CPU in their Itanium server costs $8000 +- a few hundred.  That@ 	compares to $34000 and change for a Power4 processor looking atF 	a p690 tpmC number.  Or $40000 and change per UltraSparc CPU looking  	at a Sun tpmH number.  @ 	IA64 will do quite well.  Think of IA64 as the Dell of high-end= 	processors.  Coming to suck the profit margins right out of D 	UltraSparc and Power4/5._   				RobY   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:38:13 -0800S$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>6 Subject: RE: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?0 Message-ID: <01C2A101.9391F290@sulfer.icius.com>   >o0 >Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message, news:<01C29F77.5838D780@sulfer.icius.com>...F >> I want VMS on Hammer. In fact I think we /need/ VMS on Hammer. It'sJ >> purely my opinion, but I think IA64 is a doomed experiment, and if it'sH >> VMS's only platform then we're going down with it. Hammer is at leastH >> backwards compatible with 8x86; it's a direct descendant. We saw withC >> Alpha that the 8x86 market was hard to get into even with a welleB >> respected chip. IA64's a laughing stock to many, and it's got aH >> widespread reputation for being slow whether it's true or not. Not an
 >> easy sell.  >> dK >> I find it interesting that the games community is already rumbling aboutOH >> Hammer, and some fairly influential people are saying they're lookingC >> forward to buying either Opterons or Athlon64's when they becomeyF >> available. I haven't seen word one about Itanium. Hammer has a much< >> bigger potential market already, from where I'm standing. >> d >> Shane >  >Shane,- >-F >I believe everyone that doesn't think the IA64 will amount to much isG >missing the fact that the Alpha engineers (the selected few) are to beiE >rehired by intel to use their knowlege of the Alpha Chip to help theeA >IA64 chip. This was the deal about givng the Alpha technology tonC >Intel. Now rumor had it that the real reason the P3 and P4 came sorF >fast was do to the gain in knowlege of the Alpha architecture , which- >cause the Intel-DEC $700-1.5 million payoff.e >e >Daryl Jones  F I am aware of that Daryl, but I don't think it's going to matter. As I? said it's already a laughing stock in a lot of places, and it's F potential customer base at least short term is terribly small. Even ifG it gets so fast it shakes its image, I believe that Hammer's head start/E is likely to be too big. Itanium will be squeezed into a disturbingly1D familiar niche; the occasional strange Windows 64 server, HP-UX, andF VMS. Of course, it would have two advantages over Alpha when it was inF that position: decent marketing, and Intel pushing developers to write
 stuff for it.t  F BTW, I think P4 was too early to profit from new Alpha tech, unless itH was handed over as part of the settlement between Digital and Intel overH the design theft. If it was, that was e few years ago. I also remember aH white paper from Digital pointing out how Itanium's design wasn't suitedF to adding the stuff that gave Alpha its speed advantage. Anyone have a link to that one?t   Shane    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 03:57:57 -08007 From: stephen_bainbridge@yahoo.co.uk (Steve Bainbridge)o; Subject: Re: Performance of atomic instructions and lockingM= Message-ID: <a48f6f51.0212110357.195f6625@posting.google.com>   9 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message i  A > I just presumed that anyone who even considered using spinlockseC > had already evaluated the Lock Manager and found it took too mucha > overhead.5  C Your right. On an ES45 we were only getting 20-30K locks per seconddC using the lock manager, which is way too slow. We needed about 200Kd locks per second.N   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 04:13:04 -08007 From: stephen_bainbridge@yahoo.co.uk (Steve Bainbridge)b; Subject: Re: Performance of atomic instructions and locking = Message-ID: <a48f6f51.0212110413.55ef8b56@posting.google.com>   A "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message u  I > This is chip specific.  Each generation has had larger requirements for6N > performance reasons.  You should put the lock in a 128 byte aligned block ofL > 128 bytes or more, so that it does not share the cache line with any other > data.  > J > EV6 and EV7 use cache state as part of the locking protocol.  So the CPUN > trying to write the lock can do this if A) the store conditional succeeds inM > the cache, and B) if no interrupt occured between the load locked and storeaH > conditional that read or wrote *any* memory location on the local CPU. > N > On earlier CPU designs, there was a global "lock" state, so there was not asN > much sensitivity to the cache system - but it also doesn't hurt to make sure* > that you allocate a cache line per lock.  A Fred, just to clarify should the C structure look something like:e  
 struct ts_idxm {    ...    ...y(   char pad0[128];       /* Never Used */>   long idx_lock;        /* exclusive access to entire index */(   char pad1[128];       /* Never Used */   ...b   ...c }t   or like:  
 struct ts_idxv {o   ...v   ... 1   char pad0[128];                /* Never Used */xG   long __align( 7 ) idx_lock;    /* __align(7) = 128 bytes alignment */p1   char pad1[128];                /* Never Used */t   ...n   ...o }o   or am I totally lost ?   Regards, Steve    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:45:56 -0500l5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i; Subject: Re: Performance of atomic instructions and lockinga, Message-ID: <3df76c6e_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  % Steve Bainbridge wrote in message ...W >nB >Fred, just to clarify should the C structure look something like: >n >struct ts_idx >{ >  ... >  ...) >  char pad0[128];       /* Never Used */e? >  long idx_lock;        /* exclusive access to entire index */t) >  char pad1[128];       /* Never Used */  >  ... >  ... >} >s	 >or like:d >  >struct ts_idx >{ >  ... >  ...2 >  char pad0[128];                /* Never Used */H >  long __align( 7 ) idx_lock;    /* __align(7) = 128 bytes alignment */2 >  char pad1[128];                /* Never Used */ >  ... >  ... >} >r >or am I totally lost ?o >e  F I've never actually seen the long__align(7) construct, so I don't know exactly what it does.e  D The first one should work just fine, assuming that the longword gets longword aligned properly.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:49:03 +0100 (MET) & From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de># Subject: PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problemr6 Message-ID: <200212110949.KAA29628@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  E I did search for RELEASE_NOTES within the DECset124 kit under OpenVMS1 with the following command:b  > 	$PIPE BACK/LIST CD:[DECSET124.KIT]DECSET124.*/SAVE | SEARCH - 	 SYS$INPUT RELEASErC The SEARCH utility did only find the release notes within the firstiE saveset. It did not find the *RELEASE_NOTES.PS files within the othertD savesets. If you use only the BACK/LIST command within the PIPE, youJ will see the listings of all savesets and also see the  *RELEASE_NOTES.PS.C Also, if I do search for NOTES.PS in the command above, SEARCH will > not found any match. What's wrong with the PIPE command above?   TIAS and regards R. Wingerta   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:43 +0100e, From: "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net>' Subject: Re: PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problemt6 Message-ID: <at7del$10qp3h$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>  9 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> schrieb im Newsbeitraga0 news:200212110949.KAA29628@sinet1.fom.fgan.de...@ > not found any match. What's wrong with the PIPE command above?  L I tried to follow it and searched for different strings in the backup header ("Save set:", "UIC:", ...). G Result: some strings found in all savesets, sometime only in the first.t  J Explanation seems to be: The "Command:" line in the header was longer thanI 255 bytes in one of the savesets. This line results in a mailbox overflow 8 error message (SYSTEM-F-MBTOOSML), so piping is aborted.  6 Try PIPE BACKUP/LIST savesets.* /SAVE | TYPE SYS$INPUT' and you will see the point of aborting.      -- Regards, Rainer Giese   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:02:55 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)2( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-FrdPsFn6Htfl@localhost>o  ? On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:32:52 UTC, jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason o O'Donnell) wrote:l   > All, > F > We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# > platform to our OpenVMS platform.  > ; > Has anybody done a something of this nature and have someo0 > tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?  F I know I've mentioned this before. I wish Rational, now owned by IBM, E would do this with their APEX suite, which we now use on Sun instead   of Ada-83 on VMS.u  F The main reason for the follow-up was to confirm a suspicion the last B time it came up. Rational do use Ada for the bulk of APEX but use E C/C++ for the GUI. I've been meaning to mention that for a while now.f   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:34:47 +0000h( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS) Message-ID: <3DF6F8A7.DC73E1C0@127.0.0.1>-   Jason O'Donnell wrote:  F > We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# > platform to our OpenVMS platform.W > ; > Has anybody done a something of this nature and have somep0 > tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?  H Firstly, how well do you know OpenVMS? I know lots of people will screamF at me for saying this, but ask yourself the question WHY are you doingG it, what do you expect to get from OpenVMS that you're not getting froml Solaris?  G You should highlight the differences of what you expect, OpenVMS is not F disaster tolerant out of the box, you need to design both the hardwareE and the software situation, preferably before anything hits the order H books. Perhaps there is some other reason, but don't do it on a whim, orB I don't believe you'll get the best from OpenVMS, and could end up( repeating effort with another migration.  G In this thread others have mentioned the DIICOE release of OpenVMS, use ? 7.3-1, and with that is an open source tools disk, which has antG implementation of the bash shell, and should help create an environment C to make the work easier. Certainly, we know from involvement in thenH DIICOE, that when you come across things that aren't working, the issues> are looked at seriously, because the aim is to create a UNIX98> compatible porting environment. It is work in progress though.  5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/tud/unixportability.html  F This details the current state of play, and provides a contact name, a0 gent who occasionally is seen in this newsgroup.  F I would recommend bringing in a VMS experienced person, consultant  orG contractor to help with some of the familiarization and initial work. A F few hundred pounds of paper manuals does not substitute for experienceD which could save you time and effort, there are a number here easily qualified to help you.  F And just contrary to what some folks have been saying in this list, my7 experiences with 7.3-1 have been pleasant and painless.e   -- l? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesm nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:43:16 +1100-1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>1( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3DF708B4.5000704@tg.nsw.gov.au>  7 Copied from Dave's reply, but Dave's coomments snipped.$   Dave Weatherall wrote:A > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:32:52 UTC, jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason i > O'Donnell) wrote:o >  >  >>All, >>F >>We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# >>platform to our OpenVMS platform.w >>; >>Has anybody done a something of this nature and have someo0 >>tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?   Jason,  . We need more companies like yours.  Yayyyyyyy.  G If you're the same hrblock that I know here, you're my tax accountants r forever :-)e   Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedu> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseiB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.e  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesl> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************'   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:07:36 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>t( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3DF70E68.7060708@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Nic Clews wrote: > Jason O'Donnell wrote: >  > F >>We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# >>platform to our OpenVMS platform.  >>; >>Has anybody done a something of this nature and have somet0 >>tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart? >  > J > Firstly, how well do you know OpenVMS? I know lots of people will screamH > at me for saying this, but ask yourself the question WHY are you doingI > it, what do you expect to get from OpenVMS that you're not getting from 
 > Solaris? > I > You should highlight the differences of what you expect, OpenVMS is not H > disaster tolerant out of the box, you need to design both the hardwareG > and the software situation, preferably before anything hits the order J > books. Perhaps there is some other reason, but don't do it on a whim, orD > I don't believe you'll get the best from OpenVMS, and could end up* > repeating effort with another migration. > I > In this thread others have mentioned the DIICOE release of OpenVMS, usekA > 7.3-1, and with that is an open source tools disk, which has anrI > implementation of the bash shell, and should help create an environmentrE > to make the work easier. Certainly, we know from involvement in theeJ > DIICOE, that when you come across things that aren't working, the issues@ > are looked at seriously, because the aim is to create a UNIX98@ > compatible porting environment. It is work in progress though. > 7 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/tud/unixportability.htmy > H > This details the current state of play, and provides a contact name, a2 > gent who occasionally is seen in this newsgroup. > H > I would recommend bringing in a VMS experienced person, consultant  orI > contractor to help with some of the familiarization and initial work. A-H > few hundred pounds of paper manuals does not substitute for experienceF > which could save you time and effort, there are a number here easily > qualified to help you. > H > And just contrary to what some folks have been saying in this list, my9 > experiences with 7.3-1 have been pleasant and painless.t > F Contrary to my VMS exuberance in my last post, Nic's response is more 
 realistic.  D Jason and company will possibly have to go through some of the same = things that we are having to consider for long term planning.g  B Our corporate has declared that VMS is dead here.  Our group will  maintain it for some while.o  D We write applications, Fortran/C, electrical engineering technical. H What are we looking at?  Different compilers, different endian/register C usage (we've already found that on PCs with our regression testing  H giving different answers), different quality tools (we are heavily into F DECset for all our quality requirements, is there anything similar on F IBM or Sun, can we port our history of the past 10 years, and we have I found a need to go back over element generations and classes?).  Support sH command files, in-built use of lib$, etc., routines.  In Fortran use of G structure/records/map -- we could convert structures to defined types, -E but there is no standard F90/95 equivalent of MAP. Many of the other  C Digital Fortranisms are trivial to recode, but MAP is major for us.I  H This is a formidable task from where we are sitting to convert from VMS G to IBM or Sun (note, Carly and the Fonz, that HP/UX is not a corporate oH option after VMS and TRU64 and Alpha debacles, and the Fortran compiler C deemed poor with little support).  Does Jason have similar hassles  K converting the other way -- Sun run-time library dependencies, for example?e   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************h  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedh> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseMB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.S  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid ,A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the d= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesf> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 04:45:21 -0800- From: jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) ( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS< Message-ID: <9059bf6b.0212110445.7b409a4@posting.google.com>   Kerry,  9 Thanks!  Yours was by far the best response for pointers.l   For all of the respondants,a  D Thank you.  I apologize for not having more detail.  I really do notF have much detail at this point.  I know that it will utilize some PerlE scripts.  We already use Perl for one of our applications on VMS so I = do not expect that will be an issue (file name conventions?).   ; To give more detail on our staff, we have a team of OpenVMS-E developers, most of them have a minimum of five years with the team. mD This includes two AlphaServer/OpenVMS ASEs.  So we know OpenVMS.  WeD are on 7.3-1 so we have access to the latest "enhancements" (ack) toB VMS that make it more UNIX compatible.  We also have two guys withA considerble UNIX experience, one of which has seen the light.  ;)U  E So, the question really is for those who HAVE been involved in a portl= of any kind from Solaris as to what kinds of issues they havee encountered.   "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message news:<BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660BF3@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>...t > Jason, > I > <<<We are considering porting an application environment from a Solariss& > platform to our OpenVMS platform.<<< > J > A few miscellaneous pointers that may be of assistance: (file 13 if seen
 > already) > A > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/porting.htmloC > (OpenVMS Porting Library Routines for moving UNIX applications toa
 > OpenVMS) > 2 > https://vmsbox.cjb.net/VMS/UNIX TO VMS NOTES.TXT7 > (Doc Cyphers tips-n-hints on porting UNIX to OpenVMS)y > D > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/netbeans/ (IDE)E > "OpenVMS Engineering is pleased to provide NetBeans Version 3.4 foriH > OpenVMS Alpha. This is the latest release of NetBeans and is available. > on the OpenVMS platform for free download. " > & > http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnv/' > http://gnv.sourceforge.net/readme.htm@H > (The goal is to port Open Source software to VMS with primary focus on0 > infrastructure to make porting to VMS easier.) > = > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/gtk.html C > "Compaq is pleased to provide an updated (A2) release of GTK+ forSC > OpenVMS Alpha, an open source, free software library for creatingF > graphical user interfaces."U > 5 > http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.htmlwH > "This page gives an overview of the packages I'm running on my OpenVMS0 > system. for several of them I did some porting@ > work to get them working on OpenVMS. Please send your comments > tojoukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl" > 3 > http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/webalizer/ I > "The Webalizer is a fast, free web server log file analysis program. ItcE > produces highly detailed, easily configurable usage reports in HTMLl3 > format, for viewing with a standard web browser."i >  > 	 > Regardsn >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultants > Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.# > Consulting & Integration Servicesy > Voice: 613-592-4660t > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom/ >     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)t >  >  >  > -----Original Message-----7 > From: Jason O'Donnell [mailto:jodonnell@hrblock.com] t" > Sent: December 10, 2002 11:33 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com & > Subject: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS >  >  > All, > F > We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# > platform to our OpenVMS platform.S > ; > Has anybody done a something of this nature and have someg0 > tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:49:55 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <u63RFxSTWOrb@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  m In article <9059bf6b.0212100832.7277674c@posting.google.com>, jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) writes:a > All, > F > We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# > platform to our OpenVMS platform.  > ; > Has anybody done a something of this nature and have somey0 > tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?    
    Yes, sure.i  ?    1)  If you can, get COE which makes VMS more compatable with 1       Solaris.  This could save you lots of work.   B    2)  Watch out for select().  Without COE select() only supportsG       sockets.  There are other ways of accomplishing the same thing inu
       VMS.  @    3) Watch out for system(), where the argument is a UNIX shellF       command.  There is probably a VMS routine you can call to do theI       same thing as the command.  You could also just replace the commandtH       string with the VMS DCL command, but process creation in VMS tendsE       to be slower than UNIX so review this if you have a performance        problem.  F    4)  There are lots of white papers on www.openvms.compaq.com.  Some/       of them may cover issues you'll run into.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:46 -0500e! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>r( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3DF756A2.F46FD534@vcu.edu>n  D You also want to use VMS time routines, and avoid the 2037 unix time> overflow...  that way, your app should live forever (almost)..   Jason O'Donnell wrote: >  > All, > F > We are considering porting an application environment from a Solaris# > platform to our OpenVMS platform.. > ; > Has anybody done a something of this nature and have some 0 > tips/warnings/suggestions they care to impart?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:29:30 GMTi" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <00A18488.AB9BF4CB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  q In article <u63RFxSTWOrb@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:w
 >{...snip...}nC >   2)  Watch out for select().  Without COE select() only supportsiH >      sockets.  There are other ways of accomplishing the same thing in >      VMS.r  F Directly trying to port the select() to VMS is stupid.  VMS can handle4 the uses for select() in a much more elegant manner.  F Remove the unixisms when doing your port and you'll be much better off when you've completed the port.m --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:30:40 -0800r' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>o( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS8 Message-ID: <20021211083040.58095cae.mathog@caltech.edu>    On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:29:30 GMT! VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   s > In article <u63RFxSTWOrb@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > >{...snip...} E > >   2)  Watch out for select().  Without COE select() only supportssJ > >      sockets.  There are other ways of accomplishing the same thing in
 > >      VMS.  > H > Directly trying to port the select() to VMS is stupid.  VMS can handle6 > the uses for select() in a much more elegant manner.  ? True, but it can be a pain tracing through all the dependenciesiA which are rolled up in a Unix program that depends upon select().I  = They might want to refer to these two (slightly dated) links:o  , http://saf.bio.caltech.edu/x11_vms_notes.txt0 http://saf.bio.caltech.edu/unix_to_vms_notes.txt   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Dec 2002 23:08:11 -0800: From: craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com (Craig A. Berry)& Subject: Re: Porting PostgreSQL to VMS< Message-ID: <7f15589f.0212102308.c751108@posting.google.com>  / In article <3DF658F1.7FC16985@pressenter.com>, s1  Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> wrote: e  w* > I've started porting PostgreSQL to VMS.   7D I suggest not starting from scratch since news of a partial port has# recently been posted in this forum:    \ <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3DDFA556.10FB5163%40compuserve.com>   3 > There are a few things I'm not sure how to port. r   	 > crypt. o >   > > Obviously an encryption routine. I'd like to duplicate that  > functionality. u  e8 See Perl_my_crypt() in [.vms]vms.c in the Perl sources.   S
 > vsnprintf. t >  aK > This is like snprintf, but there are four arguments, the fourth being an P > argument list.    dA Perhaps borrow trio_vsnprintf() from trio.c in the libxml sourcesh@ (http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/gnome-xml/trio.c).  This is yetC another function defined by the C99 standard but still missing fromi@ the C RTL despite claims of C99 compliance in recent versions of	 Compaq C.-  - > NAN (Not-a-Number) ,   E This is available.  See fp.h.  If running an old compiler, check yourdC C RTL for decc$gt_dbl_nan and define your own macro to point to it.s  - > isinf(). _  pA Another C99 function absent without leave.  You should be able to D implement your own using fp_class().  See trio_isinf in trionan.c in the libxml package cited above.a   ? To get any of the infinity and NaN stuff working you'll need tos! compile with something similar tofE /FLOAT=IEEE/IEEE_MODE=DENORM_RESULTS.  None of the VAX floating pointh' formats supports any of these features.r  CE By way of general porting advice, be sure to check the Compaq portingtD library ("the jackets"), the C RTL extensions provided with GNV, andE also borrow assertively from other VMS ports such as Apache, Mozilla,t Samba and Perl.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:04:57 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>D Subject: Presentations of "HP Wonderland Event" (Switzerland) online* Message-ID: <00A184C8.471464DD.5@decus.de>  9 http://h40043.www4.hp.com/events/wonderland/ppt_praes.htm'  = for the PowerPoint presentations (converted to PDF files) andi  6 http://h40043.www4.hp.com/events/wonderland/videos.htm  ) for the video presentations (JPEG files).     C NOTE: The video presentations "OpenVMS Cust Storys & Carly" (43 MB)eC and "25 Years Open VMS" (12 MB) -- typos intentionally left as they D are -- seem to be identical to the "Opening" and "Closing" videos on the Q's web site  5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/25th/index.htmlb     Michaelr  G PS: I really dont't know why it's up to me to post this information ...h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:35:25 -0500y; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>sK Subject: Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroupI$ Message-ID: <3df74d2a$1@news.si.com>  H >However, if the majority want to do something about it, I won't object.   How will this ever be measured?i  I >Does anyone else have any thoughts they'd care to share on this subject?)  / It's not so bad the way it is.  I say leave it.o -- tA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com>A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comy= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventp< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:45:51 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) K Subject: Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroupo3 Message-ID: <nP9Pb89yK5hM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3df74d2a$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:I >>However, if the majority want to do something about it, I won't object.W > ! > How will this ever be measured?r  C Measurement methods might be an issue if the reaction was in doubt.i
 It is not.  J >>Does anyone else have any thoughts they'd care to share on this subject? > 1 > It's not so bad the way it is.  I say leave it.r  4 And you have not added any doubt about the reaction.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:55:09 -0500e; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> X Subject: Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup - No thanks!$ Message-ID: <3df76de9$1@news.si.com>  G >A poll I've run for the last of couple months shows 91% of 150+ votersu, would like an openvms-managers-list started.  L Back on Encompasserve, new forum mechanisms have been tried several times inG order to provide a web-based discussion.  Each one has flopped because,mK while people say they want a different means of online discussion, it turnsV out they don't really. -- hA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventm< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:37:11 +0400.4 From: Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru>N Subject: Re[2]: [Q] Detecting client disconnects from UCX/TCP server by Server4 Message-ID: <4612132163.20021211113711@ncc.volga.ru>  : On 11.12.2002 Ryan Moore <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org> wrote:  - > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Hiroyuki Tanaka wrote:k >> My problem 1t9 >> If a client is terminated, say the box goes down.  How 8 >> in my server application will I note that this client8 >> connection has gone (assume not on same box)?  What I3 >> am after is sort of the AST event that my server 7 >> application has to look for to notice the client hast >> died.  L > You may not get any notification.  As a matter of fact, in TCP, you serverK > may not have any way to know that the client went away unless some routeroJ > tells you the network route is unreachable or the machine comes back andL > tells you the connection is no longer valid.  You best bet is to deal withJ > it by "timing out" the connect if you haven't heard from the client in a3 > while.  "In a while" depends on your application.p   >> My Problem 2n9 >> Say the client was shutdown normally, ie with a socket 5 >> close will I get a different event from problem 1.68 >> From TCPIPTRACE trace I see that a FIN ACK is send at >> protocol level on shutdown.  H > I'm not sure about UCX/QIO, but in Multinet QIO if the connection goesJ > down gracefully, your read will complete with 0 bytes read.  It may evenK > give you a status value in the I/O status block.  You're notified by your I > read completing.  Read the READVBLK operation documentation.  It shouldr > tell you.    > -Ryano  A   I didn't see the original message, so replying to this one. You > could set up the socket with KEEPALIVE option with appropriateE keepalive timer. If you use QIO interface then READVBLK will completeI: with SS$_DISCON (normal disconnect) or SS$_TIMEOUT (socketA disconnected as keepalive timer expired) in the IOSB, AST will benE fired if specified. Obviously you should specify IOSB and AST routinen in the QIO call.   -- w
 Best regards, #  Valentin                          u  valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.rur   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:54:50 -0500a# From: "Island" <sales@islandco.com>i7 Subject: Re: Selling: DS10 600Mhz With VMS EIP LicensesA/ Message-ID: <uvekdtp5pgib1d@news.supernews.com>e  9 Which, of course, is excellent pricing n'est ce pas ?!?!?    DT   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:44:49 -0800r# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>>7 Subject: RE: Selling: DS10 600Mhz With VMS EIP Licensesy9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEIIGDAA.tom@kednos.com>o  	 wee, oui.g   >-----Original Message----- ) >From: Island [mailto:sales@islandco.com]h+ >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:55 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com8 >Subject: Re: Selling: DS10 600Mhz With VMS EIP Licenses >s >d: >Which, of course, is excellent pricing n'est ce pas ?!?!? >t >DTn >t >k >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.f; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).rB >Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 >I ---h& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:38:20 -0500o5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> % Subject: Re: Silly HP zx6000 questionI, Message-ID: <3df76aa6_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  G The zx6000 is not currently on the roadmap.  However, the zx6000 is thelK workstation varient of the rx2600 rackmount server.  This (the rx2600) willsD be the initial system that we support, along with the smaller singleL processor workstation.  We will then be moving to fill in the rest of the HP8 Itanium product line with the then-current system boxes.   _Fredn  " Zane H. Healy wrote in message ...L >I'll admit it's a silly question, but is OpenVMS going to be able to run onI >the zx6000 once it's ported to Itanium?  I don't know if anyone else hassI >seen a zx6000, but it's resemblance to a BA23 chassis is uncanny.  Sure,fK >it's a little shorter, but it still looks a lot like a modern VAXstation Il >or II.  > L >Of course the only reason for asking is that it strikes me that it would beJ >really cool to have the Itanium port running on something that looks like  >one of the original MicroVAXen. >  > Zane >8 >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:27:12 +0100o4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> Subject: Re: Vest3& Message-ID: <3DF64E20.6030707@Free.fr>   I beg your pardon, Warren.   D.   warren sander a crit:6 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva >  >  > --D > ------------------------------------------------------------------8 > Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingI > Hewlett-Packard Company              Work:  warren.sander@remove.hp.comdN > 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@remove.ma.ultranet.com5 > Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875o7 >    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myselft. >          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/D > ------------------------------------------------------------------ >  > C > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote in messagea" > news:3DF619FD.1030600@Free.fr... > 9 >>See also: http://www.softresint.com/news/DECmigrate.htma >> >>D.   --  4    -------------------------------------------------3 MORANDI Consultants - http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr 1    19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.o3 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax : +33 (0)5 6154 1928h3 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans.h3 ---------------------------------------------------c3 Anti-publicit : enlever ".nospam" pour me rpondre*   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:50:38 -0500 , From: "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com> Subject: Re: Vest * Message-ID: <at5gih$c9k$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  4 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva     --B ------------------------------------------------------------------6 Warren Sander                        OpenVMS MarketingG Hewlett-Packard Company              Work:  warren.sander@remove.hp.com L 200 Forest Street MR01-3/J1          Personal: sander@remove.ma.ultranet.com3 Marlboro, MA 01752                   (508) 467-4875d5    My opinions are my own and I only speak for myselfn,          Read http://www.openvms.compaq.com/B ------------------------------------------------------------------    A "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote in message-  news:3DF619FD.1030600@Free.fr...9 > See also: http://www.softresint.com/news/DECmigrate.htmk >n > D. >r
 > MB a crit: H > > DECmigrate is a binary translator -- it converts a binary executableF > > (that is, compiled) program for OpenVMS VAX or ULTRIX RISC on MIPSC > > into a binary executable program optimized for OpenVMS Alpha orlE > > Compaq's Tru64 UNIX. To convert the code, DECmigrate works like a/E > > compiler: it uses the binary code for Alpha or MIPS as if it wereeC > > source code and generates equivalent native Alpha binaries. The.I > > original and newly translated binaries are functionally the same, but1C > > the translated versions run faster, taking advantage of Alpha's  > > superior performance.  > >mK > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/72final/6459/6459pro.html#my_pref_sym} > > 1 > > http://www.support.compaq.com/amt/decmigrate/  > >t > > Have fun:-)  > > Mark > > : > > "Barry Strets" <Barrys2552@attbi.com> wrote in message' news:<ucgJ9.5266$hw3.1990@sccrnsc04>...  > > 5 > >>What is VEST???? and where do I get a copy of it.- > >> > >>Barry Streets  > >>bstreets@echoman.com > >m >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:40:43 -0500g  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Veste6 Message-ID: <1021210163358.62280A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  * On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Didier Morandi wrote:   > I beg your pardon, Warren. >=20 > D. >=20 > warren sander a =E9crit:8 > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva  < To answer the OP's question, though, (who must be mystified,7 since he asked about VEST and everyone is talking aboute: DECMigrate...)  VEST is DECMigrate (or maybe DECMigrate is* VEST or VEST is part of DECMigrate or ...)  ; IIRC, DECMigrate is the product name (i.e. marketing name).c  3 VEST is the name of the program that implements it.    --=20h John Santosm Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:10:29 +1100R1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>P Subject: Re: Vestr, Message-ID: <3DF70F15.1040508@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Didier Morandi wrote:l > Yeah."F > VEST stands for VAX Environment Software Translator, if my memory isJ > good. But the commercial name is OMSVA (OpenVMS Migration               , >                Software for VAX to Alpha).  ? VEST, yes.  DECmigrate, yes.  But I've never come across OMSVA.    Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************m  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedn> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisepB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid uA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the o= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with sC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesa> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:39:41 GMTA2 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Vests* Message-ID: <3df715eb$1@news.deckpoint.ch>  I We made a new version of DECmigrate for HP. HP asked us to name it OMSVA.g- (OpenVMS Migration Software for Vax to Alpha)e   Regards, Robert-# Software Resources International SA,  > "Paddy O'Brien" <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message& news:3DF70F15.1040508@tg.nsw.gov.au... >V >  > Didier Morandi wrote:3	 > > Yeah.0H > > VEST stands for VAX Environment Software Translator, if my memory is= > > good. But the commercial name is OMSVA (OpenVMS Migrationo. > >                Software for VAX to Alpha). >tA > VEST, yes.  DECmigrate, yes.  But I've never come across OMSVA.? >  > Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Dec 2002 16:26:12 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)i Subject: Re: Vestg) Message-ID: <at7ov4$u1$1@web1.cup.hp.com>S  Y In article <ucgJ9.5266$hw3.1990@sccrnsc04>, "Barry Strets" <Barrys2552@attbi.com> writes:e2 :What is VEST???? and where do I get a copy of it.  K   Please take the time to read the OpenVMS Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)bJ   document, as the FAQ contains this and other information.  In this case,H   download and search through the contents of the FAQ -- the text-formatG   version is usually the easiest format for this, though there are manynJ   formats available -- and specifically search for the target "vest" here.  #   The OpenVMS FAQ is available via:s  "     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/   H   Searching the FAQ gets you an answer quickly and easily -- for you andI   your situation, and it avoids the posting of duplicate questions -- andeG   the grief and consternation that can cause -- for the folks that are b,   answering questions here in the newsgroup.  G   On an unrelated note, please be kind to the ASCII enviroment, and trysG   to conserve the questions and the bangs -- once there were huge herds D   of these characters roaming far and wide, but now the onslaught of'   spam has decimated their numbers. :-)n  I   And if you are still reading and depending on the particular problem(s)eI   you seek to resolve, additional (potential) options include porting theaG   source code itself and/or using one of the available VAX emulators onfF   the OpenVMS Alpha system.  While DECmigrate (VEST, as it is known inH   its more formal nomenclature) can be feasible, but there are certainly(   other and sometimes better approaches.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comw   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:01:50 GMTa" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG- Subject: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSs0 Message-ID: <00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  G It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA hast) been incorporated into HP's DPSS program.n  G Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Haves1 you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK?e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr            u5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" *   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 06:05:38 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)y1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSi3 Message-ID: <Paj2k7lFX4yk@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  U In article <00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: I > It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA hass+ > been incorporated into HP's DPSS program.n > I > Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Haves3 > you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK?e  % We got the renewal check back asking:i  + 	1. Send a replacement check for $600 less.n 	2. Register on their web site.o  G Using a sacrificial machine with dangerous things enabled (because timexG is short before expiration), we were able to get far enough through then registration to get a 404.  G We have yet to receive a response to our subsequent letter, but we have*+ _NOT_ received PAKs, so that is a bad sign.*   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:03:54 GMT0" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSr0 Message-ID: <00A1847C.B66CE5CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <Paj2k7lFX4yk@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:gV >In article <00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:J >> It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA has, >> been incorporated into HP's DPSS program. >> ,J >> Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Have4 >> you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK? >d& >We got the renewal check back asking: >O, >	1. Send a replacement check for $600 less.  >	2. Register on their web site. >fH >Using a sacrificial machine with dangerous things enabled (because timeH >is short before expiration), we were able to get far enough through the >registration to get a 404.h > H >We have yet to receive a response to our subsequent letter, but we have, >_NOT_ received PAKs, so that is a bad sign.  
 Thanks Larry,S  F Your experiences are reassuring -- not about the SDK but that I am not? the only one experiencing difficulties with all things HP/DSPP.s   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn            s5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:09:26 +0000t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>t3 Subject: What judge thinks of Capellas and WorldConu8 Message-ID: <jiaevussfurhjdmoeei8kah6jd1tfgicaa@4ax.com>  L http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/10/news/companies/worldcom_gross.reut/index.htm   WorldCom CEO pay 'excessive' s  tD Judge criticizes proposed compensation package for Michael Capellas. December 10, 2002: 4:04 PM EST    s    > NEW YORK (Reuters) - WorldCom Inc.'s plan to pay its new chiefE executive as much as $23 million was described as "grossly excessive" F by a corporate monitor, raising questions about the bankrupt telephone> company's commitment to reform, a federal judge said Tuesday.   F U.S. District Judge Jed Rakoff said he was baffled by the compensation@ proposal for CEO Michael Capellas because the overseer the courtC appointed had already rejected key elements of the package to bringt5 the former Hewlett-Packard president to the company. m  C "This statement seems most puzzling given that ... several materials? terms of the proposed compensation package have previously beentE rejected by the corporate monitor as grossly excessive," Rakoff wroter in a ruling issued Tuesday.   E In a bankruptcy court filing late Monday, the Clinton, Miss., companytD proposed paying Capellas a signing bonus of $2 million, $1.5 millionF in annual salary, plus another $1.5 million in potential bonuses if he# meets certain performance targets. s  < Capellas also would get $18 million in restricted stock in aA post-bankruptcy WorldCom. He also will be entitled to other stocknC options to be determined by the board, the filing said. The company 8 has said it aims to emerge from bankruptcy in mid-2003.   B The compensation plan must be reviewed by the bankruptcy court andE Richard Breeden, the corporate monitor appointed by the federal courteC to protect corporate assets, monitor document retention and preventn0 unwarranted payments to officers and employees.   > For WorldCom to propose a compensation package "so potentiallyB problematic raises serious concerns as to whether the proposed new? management is as committed to reform as the nature of this caser requires." 4     D The pay proposal has already been revised and scaled back to addressC concerns raised by the creditors, according to WorldCom's filings.    C A hearing has been set for Dec. 16 to thrash out the details of the C package, but in the interim, Rakoff ordered the parties to meet and*F confer with the monitor "to try to resolve what appears to be his very: serious objections to the proposed compensation package."   > Breeden could not be immediately reached for comment. WorldCom8 officials did not immediately return calls for comment.   C Other companies reorganizing in bankruptcy have also faced problemss5 getting approval for their executives' compensation. e  C Last spring collapsed energy trader Enron Corp. was forced to scale A back what it proposed to pay turnaround specialist Stephen Cooper ! during his tenure acting as CEO. e  E WorldCom said Capellas' compensation would be "comfortably within thebD range of compensation paid for executives of companies comparable in" size and complexity to WorldCom."   D Last year, WorldCom paid its former CEO, Bernie Ebbers, who resignedD in April as the company's financial and legal problems escalated, $1E million in salary. In 2000, WorldCom gave Ebbers a $10 million bonus.-D Ebbers currently owes the company more than $400 million for various loans and guarantees.   6 WorldCom's accounting problems now exceed $9 billion.   A Four former WorldCom executives have pleaded guilty to securitieseE fraud and have agreed to cooperate with authorities probing the case.oE Former Chief Financial Officer Scott Sullivan, who was fired in June,r@ has been indicted on seven counts of fraud. Sullivan pleaded not
 guilty.       i  e   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:15:47 GMTo1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au>t4 Subject: [FS] Classic DEC book for sale + more books5 Message-ID: <DAuJ9.666$P5.41710@nasal.pacific.net.au>i    	Once again, with feelings...:-)  1 	I have a special nice book for the right person:o  0 	MicroVAX Systems Handbook	1988	about 150 pages.6 		Color cover, and nice, thin, quality non-shine paper  4 	Lots of diagrams, tables, relates to MicroVAX 2000,<  		MicroVAX II, MicroVAX 3500/3600, VAXserver 3500/3600/3602  B 	This is a collector's item. I am looking for US$20+postage (US$4)  B 	Also, from the other list a few books have gone, but I still have 	the following:K  6 1.  VAX Rdb/VMS	Guide to using SQL	AA-JM33E-TE	1991	$5/ 2.  VMS V5.2	User's Manual		AA-LA98B-TE	1989	$5.4 3.  VMS V5.2	System Manager's M.	AA-LA00B-TE	1989	$56 4.  VMS V5.0	License Management U.	AA-LA33A-TE	1988	$28 5.  RRD42 Disc Drive	Owner's Manual	EK-RRD42-003	1991	$24 6.  DEC C	User's Guide for OVMS	AA-PUNZD-TK	1995	$104 7.  DEC C	Run-Time Lib. Ref. M.	AA-PUNED-TK	1995	$15B 8.  WordPerfect for VAX/VMS Systems  V5.0  MNUSVWP50-3/90 1990	$157 9.  VAX Fortran	Vol 1. User Manual	AA-D035E-TE	1988	$10t< 10. VAX Fortran	Vol 2. Language Ref. M. AA-D034E-TE	1988	$10   ****  - 11. Writing OpenVMS Alpha Device Drivers in Cw* 	Developer's Guide and Reference Manual	by8 	Margie Sherlock & Leonard Szubowicz  750 pages	1996	$30   ****; ( The above is very useful book, it is very affordable... )e  6 12. DECthreads	Guide to DECthreads	AA-PV6NA-TK	1993	$5 13. DECUSERVE	Australia 1993, 	Proceedings of the D.E.C. User Society			$58 14. DECUS	Software Library  1992/93 International ed.	$2; 15. Managing the Oracle RDB Database,  course book	1994	$10c  7 	I also have some DEC Professional magazines as well...v   						Cheers,  Csaba  I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehogrE    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush.eI    ----------------------------------------------------------------------g;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.684 ************************