1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 12 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 686       Contents:
 "-" or "/"A Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay A Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay % Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem " Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD" Re: Andrew repats his same old FUDO Andrew's right - FW: FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Servers P Re: Andrew's right - FW: FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Serv copy/ftp Re: copy/ftp Re: copy/ftp Re: copy/ftp Re: copy/ftp Re: death of alpha on slashdot# From Compaq to HP Servers (Itanium)  Help with Datatrieve. + Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mount  HP and DirecTV Re: HP and DirecTV' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? ' RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?  Re: PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problem Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10  Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10  RE: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10  Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10 % Re: sys$wake returns after long delay  Re: TCL for OpenVMS  Re: VMS & TCP/IP Re: VMS & TCP/IP Re: VMS & TCP/IP Re: VMS & TCP/IP Re: VMS & TCP/IP Re: VMS & TCP/IP( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS( Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS@ Re: VMS73_SYS05 (& VMS731_SYS02) kills dce, pathworks, goldfax ?M Re: [ANN] LORIA ANNOUNCES RELEASE 1.0 OF SMARTEIFFEL, THE GNU EIFFEL COMPILER 8 [OT] Humor - was [Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem]< Re: [OT] Humor - was [Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem]  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:58:00 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: "-" or "/" ' Message-ID: <3DF8DC38.A80F9A11@aaa.com>   1 In a PDF presentation about VMS found on the net, 0 ("AkeBlomberg_OpenVMS_future_technologies.pdf"), I saw the following :    $ RCHK :== $SYS$TEST:RADCHECK  $ RCHK* INO>rchk -nosystem -noglobal -pid 20200406  # Now, why on earth isn't that like :   * INO>rchk /nosystem /noglobal /pid=20200406  # Is RADCHECK a multi-platform tool ? - Is there also a "native" VMS command syntax ?    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:58:44 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> J Subject: Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay$ Message-ID: <3df8b22d$1@news.si.com>  : >Unless all copies are gone you can get them free from HP.  / I have three of them on my bookshelf right now.  --  A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 16:10:07 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>J Subject: Re: "OpenVMS and Windows NT Integration for Dummies" book on eBay6 Message-ID: <20021212161007.22212.qmail@nym.alias.net>  J On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote:; >>Unless all copies are gone you can get them free from HP.  > 0 >I have three of them on my bookshelf right now.  ; You mean they're like Gremlins ... They breed in the night?    What a horrific thought.     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:01:08 -0000 * From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>. Subject: Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem6 Message-ID: <at9n11$11lbmc$1@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>  & <dittman@dittman.net> wrote in message1 news:vpIJ9.11099$cn2.1068@nwrddc02.gnilink.net... ? > I have an AlphaServer 4100 at home with four 466MHz CPU cards A > and 2GB of memory (two 1GB cards).  I have three power supplies  > installed. > = > When I power-up the 4100, I get failures on test 20 (memory = > test), but no failures on test 24 (also a memory test), but < > the system isn't usable due to the failures.  If I quickly= > power-on and -off the 4100 there aren't any failures during  > any of the tests.  > ; > My first suspicion is that I had a bad power supply, so I > > swapped out all three of them, but the problem still exists. > < > If I remove two of the CPUs, I don't see any failures when > I power-up the system. > ; > Has anyone else experienced this?  If so, can you tell me ; > what had to be done to fix it?  Like I mentioned, this is / > at home so I'm it as far as hardware support.  > 	 > Thanks.  > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net ? > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/   J The usual troubleshooting technique used in this situation is to strip theK machine to its minimum configuration and test it. If it fails swap one part I at a time until it passes. Try all 4 cpu's one at a time. If all pass OK, I see what you can do with the memory. If need be, try to borrow a suitable I memory module from someone, or maybe a pair of smaller memories. When you K get to the stage where you cannot break it, add one part at a time until it L is as fully configured as possible without failing again. Any bits left over are probably suspect...   
 John Travell.      --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.426 / Virus Database: 239 - Release Date: 02/12/2002    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Dec 2002 13:48:07 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD 3 Message-ID: <ibru72ukcTg5@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3DF7555F.80409@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:: > You are going to have to be more specific, are you using: > the Solaris real time scheduler class for you processes.: > Are you using mlock to lock your real time process pages > into memory etc etc ? 6 > Are you using threads and if so what scheduling have > you used for the threads. 9 > I worked on a SCADA system a few years ago with Solaris 7 > and a much older SPARC platform and the behaviour you 7 > describe wasn't an issue for the systems we deployed.      $    On our Solaris based application:!       1) realtime scheduler - yes        2) locked memory - yesB       3) no threads, the process is just too simple to bother with       	 threads 6       4) SCADA doesn't meet my definition of real-time      If it had been done on VMS:8       1)  the default scheduler has a realtime algorithmB       2)  locked memory - only needed for a couple of data buffersB       3)  I wouldn't have needed threads here, either, but I might"       	    have used a couple ASTs.       4)  SCADA still isn't a real-time system   >  >  >>   >>>Security. >>> 7 >>>If your evidence for OpenVMS's security pre-eminence 5 >>>is its Cert advisory count then you just blew your  >>>argument. >>   >>  G >>    And if you have a better source you know it's true despite CERT's  >>    shortcomings.  >>   >  > Really > 4 > Sun is open about Solaris's security vunerabilties: > and there are at least 10x the number of Solaris systems9 > installed worldwide with easy access to Solaris source.   ?    There didn't used to be, but the number of security problems     was already high in Solaris.   9 > Historically OpenVMS security vunerabilites havn't been 8 > reported and it has a much much smaller customer base.  C    They have been if you have the correct access (and don't rely on G    CERT).  And if you have the correct access you know how few they've  '    been.  Which is what I already said.     8 > In addition the buffer overflow security vunerabilites7 > can effect both Solaris and OpenVMS despite claims to 5 > the contrary made by certain posters to this group.   G    True, but in C it's easy to write a buffer overflow and more work to H    prevent it.  C++ is the only language that seems to share this.  Most>    of Solaris is C and most of VMS is not.  You use a languageF    characterized by a known problem, you get that problem.  Read Sun's'    white paper on the creation of Java.    > 2 > This may be true in you but it clearly isn't the+ > experience of many posters to this group.   B    Most of the posters in this group seem to have vastly different    experience from you.    >  >  >>  3 >>>Vendor support or indifference depending on your  >>>perspective >>   >>  ; >>    Comes and goes, like Sun's support of Solaris on '86.  >>   > 7 > No, it goes it hasn't come back as you know perfectly  > well.   ;    And you want to site that as an example of good support?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:11:18 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy + Subject: Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD . Message-ID: <3DF8A716.5080500@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:X > In article <3DF7555F.80409@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: > : >>You are going to have to be more specific, are you using: >>the Solaris real time scheduler class for you processes.: >>Are you using mlock to lock your real time process pages >>into memory etc etc ? 6 >>Are you using threads and if so what scheduling have >>you used for the threads. 9 >>I worked on a SCADA system a few years ago with Solaris 7 >>and a much older SPARC platform and the behaviour you 7 >>describe wasn't an issue for the systems we deployed.  >   4 >>Sun is open about Solaris's security vunerabilties: >>and there are at least 10x the number of Solaris systems9 >>installed worldwide with easy access to Solaris source.  >  > A >    There didn't used to be, but the number of security problems ! >    was already high in Solaris.  >   5 There have been 10x the number of Sun's installed for 5 at least the last 5 years. More importantly there are 4 many many more connected to public networks and that5 makes them a much more interesting target for attacks 5 than the relatively few AlphaServers running OpenVMS.      > 9 >>Historically OpenVMS security vunerabilites havn't been 8 >>reported and it has a much much smaller customer base. >  > E >    They have been if you have the correct access (and don't rely on I >    CERT).  And if you have the correct access you know how few they've  ) >    been.  Which is what I already said.  >   4 But as you know Bob's point was based on CERT, which7 isn't as you an I know a reliable source of information  on OpenVMS vunerability.   > I >    True, but in C it's easy to write a buffer overflow and more work to J >    prevent it.  C++ is the only language that seems to share this.  Most@ >    of Solaris is C and most of VMS is not.  You use a languageH >    characterized by a known problem, you get that problem.  Read Sun's) >    white paper on the creation of Java.  >   = However and this is crucial, TCP/IP and all of the supporting = SW stack is written in C as is X11 and Motif, these are where ; a huge proportion of the buffer overflow vunerabilites are.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:09:09 -0500 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> X Subject: Andrew's right - FW: FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Servers: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDOEBNCGAA.dallen@nist.gov>  A 	Just got this gem from our CSO. Andrew's right - unlike VMS they ( 	do own up to their own malfeasance  ;-)    	Dan    H >There is a vulnerability in Sun Cobalt RaQ 4 Servers that could allow aE >remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with superuser privileges. M >Affected systems should be corrected as soon as possible (which in this case 5 >involves the removal of a security hardening patch).    ----- Original Message -----% From: "FedCIRC" <fedcirc@fedcirc.gov>  To: <FedCIRC-Community:>* Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:13 PMC Subject: FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Servers      >  > $ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > F >           FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Servers > - >    Original release date: December 11, 2002  >    Last revised: --  >    Source: CERT/CC > F >    A complete revision history can be found at the end of this file. >  >   Systems Affected > K >      * Sun  Cobalt  RaQ  4  Server Appliances with the Security Hardening  >        Package installed > 
 > Overview > K >    A remotely exploitable vulnerability has been discovered in Sun Cobalt K >    RaQ  4  Server  Appliances  running  Sun's  Security Hardening Package K >    (SHP).  Exploitation  of this vulnerability may allow remote attackers 9 >    to execute arbitrary code with superuser privileges.  >  > I. Description > K >    Cobalt  RaQ 4 is a Sun Server Appliance. For background information on K >    Cobalt  RaQ 4, please see the COBALT RaQ 4 User Manual. Sun provides a K >    Security Hardening Package (SHP) for Cobalt RaQ 4. Although the SHP is K >    not installed by default, many users choose to install it on their RaQ K >    4  servers.  For background information on the SHP, please see the SHP  >    RaQ 4 User Guide. > K >    A  vulnerability  in  the  SHP  may allow a remote attacker to execute K >    arbitrary  code  on a Cobalt RaQ 4 Server Appliance. The vulnerability K >    occurs   in  a  cgi  script  that  does  not  properly  filter  input. K >    Specifically,  overflow.cgi  does not adequately filter input destined K >    for  the  email  variable. Because of this flaw, an attacker can use a K >    POST  request  to fill the email variable with arbitrary commands. The K >    attacker  can then call overflow.cgi, which will allow the command the K >    attacker  filled the email variable with to be executed with superuser  >    privileges. > = >    An exploit is publicly available and may be circulating.  > K >    Further information about this vulnerability may be found in VU#810921 1 >    in the CERT/CC Vulnerability Notes Database.  >  > II. Impact > K >    A  remote  attacker  may be able to execute arbitrary code on a Cobalt 3 >    RaQ 4 Server Appliance with the SHP installed.  >  > III. Solution  > $ >     Apply a patch from your vendor > K >    Appendix A contains information provided by vendors for this advisory. K >    As  vendors report new information to the CERT/CC, we will update this K >    section  and note the changes in our revision history. If a particular K >    vendor  is  not  listed  below,  we  have not received their comments. ) >    Please contact your vendor directly.  >  >     Workarounds  > K >    Block   access  to  the  Cobalt  RaQ  4  administrative  httpd  server K >    (typically  ports  81/TCP and 444/TCP) at your network perimeter. Note K >    that  this  will  not  protect  vulnerable  hosts  within your network K >    perimeter.  It  is  important to understand your network configuration K >    and service requirements before deciding what changes are appropriate.  > 
 >     Caveats  > K >    The  patch  supplied  by  Sun  removes  the  SHP  completely.  If your K >    operation requires the use of the SHP, you may need to find a suitable  >    alternative.  > " > Appendix A. - Vendor Information >  >     Sun Microsystems > K >    Sun  confirms  that  a  remote root exploit does affect the Sun/Cobalt K >    RaQ4  platform  if  the  SHP  (Security  Hardening  Patch)  patch  was  >    installed.  > K >    Sun  has  released  a  Sun Alert which describes how to remove the SHP  >    patch:  > @ >  http://sunsolve.Sun.COM/pub-cgi/retrieve.pl?doc=fsalert/49377 > ( >   The removal patch is available from: >  > L http://ftp.cobalt.sun.com/pub/packages/raq4/eng/RaQ4-en-Security-2.0.1-SHP_R EM.pkg >  > Appendix B. - References > , > 1. CERT/CC Vulnerability Note: VU#810921 -% http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/810921  > 2. Sun SHP RaQ 4 User Guide - J http://www.sun.com/hardware/serverappliances/pdfs/support/RaQ_4_SHP_UG.pdf > 3. COBALT RaQ 4 User Manual - I http://www.sun.com/hardware/serverappliances/pdfs/manuals/manual.raq4.pdf H >      _________________________________________________________________ > @ >    grazer@digit-labs.org publicly reported this vulnerability.H >      _________________________________________________________________ >  >    Author: Ian A. Finlay. K >    ______________________________________________________________________  > % >    This document is available from: 7 >    http://www2.fedcirc.gov/advisories/FA-2002-35.html K >    ______________________________________________________________________  >  > FedCIRC Contact Information  >  >    Email: fedcirc@fedcirc.gov > >           Phone: +1 888-282-0870 (24-hour toll-free hotline)4 >           Phone: +1 703-375-4220 (24-hour hotline)  >           Fax: +1 703-326-9461 > H >    FedCIRC personnel answer the hotline 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. >  >     Using encryption > K >    We  strongly  urge you to encrypt sensitive information sent by email. ) >    Our public PGP key is available from  > % >    http://www.fedcirc.gov/keys.html  > K >    If  you  prefer  to  use DES, please call the FedCIRC hotline for more  >    information.  > " >     Getting security information > K >    FedCIRC publications and other security information are available from  >    our web site  >  >    http://www.fedcirc.gov/ > K >    FedCIRC  (Federal Computer Incident Response Center) provides security K >    services  to U.S. Federal civilian agencies. FedCIRC is managed by the K >    U.S.  General  Services  Administration.  The CERT Coordination Center H >    performs incident and vulnerability analysis and issues advisories. > K >    *  "CERT"  and  "CERT  Coordination Center" are registered in the U.S. ! >    Patent and Trademark Office. K >    ______________________________________________________________________  >  >    NO WARRANTYK >    Any  material furnished by Carnegie Mellon University and the Software K >    Engineering  Institute  is  furnished  on  an  "as is" basis. Carnegie K >    Mellon University makes no warranties of any kind, either expressed or K >    implied  as  to  any matter including, but not limited to, warranty of K >    fitness  for  a  particular purpose or merchantability, exclusivity or K >    results  obtained from use of the material. Carnegie Mellon University K >    does  not  make  any warranty of any kind with respect to freedom from 2 >    patent, trademark, or copyright infringement. > / >    Copyright 2002 Carnegie Mellon University.  >  >    Revision History $ > December 11, 2002: Initial release >  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  > Version: PGP 6.5.8 > B > iQA/AwUBPfe1Z7s6V2OeBChlEQJYNwCg8mi1i6L8MTSgNcIxAN2PU9Sl61wAoJSH > QqTwspCdHrO50ythE8HqFGqQ > =7kGR  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:57:15 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> Y Subject: Re: Andrew's right - FW: FedCIRC Advisory FA-2002-35 Vulnerability in RaQ 4 Serv 5 Message-ID: <3DF8DC0B.BF0DA9BE@swissonline.delete.ch>    Dan Allen wrote: > J >         Just got this gem from our CSO. Andrew's right - unlike VMS they1 >         do own up to their own malfeasance  ;-)  > 
 >         Dan  > J > >There is a vulnerability in Sun Cobalt RaQ 4 Servers that could allow aG > >remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with superuser privileges. O > >Affected systems should be corrected as soon as possible (which in this case 7 > >involves the removal of a security hardening patch).     ? And how many security alerts for Sun does that make this year ?   ) I recall about 3 in the last 2 months ...      John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:53:17 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>  Subject: copy/ftp , Message-ID: <3DF84E7D.1080904@tg.nsw.gov.au>  G The ongoing saga of our corporate wanting to dish DECnet (and anything   remotely concerned with VMS).   E We have looked at RCP and it appears not to be able to copy with VMS   attributes -- VMS to VMS.   H According to our local network "expert", neither does copy/ftp.  Though D there seem to be qualifiers that should effect this.  HELP seems to - imply that it is the basic U**X copy not VMS.   L How do we copy text files not as stream-LF, and how do we copy binary files?   Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:21:58 +0100 , From: "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net> Subject: Re: copy/ftp 6 Message-ID: <at9kfn$122029$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>  D "Paddy O'Brien" <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag& news:3DF84E7D.1080904@tg.nsw.gov.au...A > According to our local network "expert", neither does copy/ftp.   A According to me, copy/ftp preserves attributes without additional " qualifiers, if destination is VMS.   -- Regards, Rainer Giese   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:37:20 +0200 % From: Gabriel Sterk <Gabi@aipm.co.il>  Subject: Re: copy/ftp < Message-ID: <A03E427CB023D511A6F900508B44ED0D01E4B333@HDEX1>  B Just copied (/ftp) the SYSUAF.DAT file from one node to the other,- which preserved the attributes (indexed etc.)    Regards,
 Gabriel Sterk    -----Original Message-----8 From: Paddy O'Brien [mailto:paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au]* Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:53 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: copy/ftp    ..@ According to our local network "expert", neither does copy/ftp.  ..   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 13:50:04 +0100' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)  Subject: Re: copy/ftp + Message-ID: <yHspgRyUKilS@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>   U In article <EW+0Loa7M1Gx@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>, huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) writes: g > In article <at9kfn$122029$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>, "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net> writes:  >>  G >> "Paddy O'Brien" <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag ) >> news:3DF84E7D.1080904@tg.nsw.gov.au... C >>> According to our local network "expert", neither does copy/ftp.  >>  D >> According to me, copy/ftp preserves attributes without additional% >> qualifiers, if destination is VMS.  >>   >  > One restriction:3 >   VMS attribute preservation works if and only if 3 >   the FTP software is the same on both ends, ie.  I >     either the UCX style or the Multinet style (Multinet,HGftp,Process) L >   Also the OPENVMS$FTP* logicals must point to the right FTP client, like: >   >   "OPENVMS$FTP" = "HG_EXE:FTP"# >   "OPENVMS$FTPDIR" = "HG_EXE:FTP"  >     M  I have to correct myself for the HGFTP example (did not use it over too many   system upgrades :-)  N  With VMS 7.3 and HGFTP 3.1, one gets the following error when using copy/ftp:  6  copy/ftp avmp01.mppmu.mpg.de::www:[syshlp]site.hlb []G  %CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling $  \"GET ""www:[syshlp]site.hlb"" []"\  :  i.e. HGFTP receives a command-line containing all quotes.>  Was it the same under previous versions of VMS and/or HGFTP ?    --  N Joseph "Sepp" Huber   mailto:joseph.huber@web.de   http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:41:12 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) Subject: Re: copy/ftp 2 Message-ID: <ce1K9.22$Lm5.378895@news.cpqcorp.net>  7 In article <at9kfn$122029$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>,  . "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net> writes:  B >According to me, copy/ftp preserves attributes without additional# >qualifiers, if destination is VMS.   F I use COPY/FTP, VMS to VMS, almost daily with no additional qualifiersD and no known problems.  This is NOT to say that your milage will not vary, but try it.    --  I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 08:12:26 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)' Subject: Re: death of alpha on slashdot < Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0212120812.73097314@posting.google.com>  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3DF109AA.6895450A@vl.videotron.ca>...  > John Smith wrote: P > > "The Alpha business will lose about $200 million this fiscal year, BlackmoreN > > said. Once the final chips are out the door, HP will be able to scale backB > > its investment and shift to what he dubbed "maintenance mode." >  > J > Funny how, prior to June 25 2001, the "enterprise" business was the mostO > profitable at Compaq, and attempts to kill VMS were killed/postoponed because L > Curly was made to realise that Compaq needs the profits generated by alpha6 > based business to subsidize his wintel pet projects. > H > Is there any surprise that the Alpha business which is going through aK > "useless" last development with not only EV7, but also new wildfire-class  > machines would lose money ?  > K > So, not only is Alpha pronounced dead, but those customers still loyal to M > alpha are waiting for EV7 which was supposed to be available "anytime soon"  > back in june 2001. > N > If the unit is losing money, blame it squarely on the owner's mismanagement, > not on the chip or customers.  >  > > P > > profitable than the company hoped this year, in part because of the costs of2 > > developing for three high-end chip families. " > I > Intel is funding the IA64 port to a large extent. I don't recall Tandem M > developping a new MIPS architecture, are they ? And if they have to develop M > more PA-RISC stuff, it is because of the failed IA64 which, almost a decade ? > after its inception is still useless to enterprise computing.  > O > > The mantra should be "VMS isn't going away - it's a safe long term purchase P > > committment for any company, large or small, that wants a reilable computing > > infrastructure.  > M > NO! This reminds everyone that VMS is on the "endangered species list". The N > owner MUST NOT spend so much time making "we'll commit to VMS for at least XI > years" statements. The owner MUST start to market VMS against competing P > operating systems. A real commitment to VMS would see HP advertise VMS againstO > "unix" (in general) and "windows".  To HP, it doesn't matter if VMS steals an G > HP-UX or windows sale because that stays inside the company. But such P > advertising would also help HP steal accounts from Dell, Sun, IBM due to VMS's > superior clustering. > M > Until that happens, people will continue to see zero growth for VMS, and HP M > just keeping VMS on maintenance (trying to retain existing customers) which 7 > means that VMS is not a long term strategic OS to HP.  >  > @ > > VMS has survived and thrived on the VAX to Alpha transition,D > > and it will continue to do so on the Alpha to IA-64 transition.  > P > Alpha was seen as a winner from the get go. People had confidence in the alphaM > architecture because they had confidence in the Digital engineers. The same P > cannot be said of IA64. It is seen as an also ran that failed. It is a bloatedO > architecture and is definitely not going to garner "industry standard" status I > that Carly and Culry had banked on. So they are switching from a highly D > regarded Alpha architecture to one which has little or no respect. >  >  > > Buying AlphaJ > > now is not a lost investment because HP will give you genrous trade-inH > > credits on IA-64 when your company is ready to make the transition." > L > Question is whether you should BUY Alpha now since you know you'll need toJ > migrate to Sun or IBM later if IA64 never delivers on its promises of anP > industry leading, industry standard low cost platform that Carly and Curly had > bet their business on. > M > It is no wonder Carly might now refocus on the wintel business since she is M > realising her enterprise business has not a bright future since she put all 1 > her enterprise eggs in the failing IA64 basket.   D What are you talking about?  HP has a promising enterprise offering:  : http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/1555681   and people like them:   7 http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,107933,00.asp    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:49 -0800 (PST) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: From Compaq to HP Servers (Itanium)@ Message-ID: <20021212172849.98803.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>   Hi All  = Anyone know how is the hardware integration from PA and Alpha 9 to Itanium ?  Any idea of hardware specification when the - Itanium compatible with OVMS will be runnin ?   > HP hardware idendification for Itanium servers ? like AnnnnB ?  G Any idea if the A6696A (GSP/Lan Console) will work in these machines ?    + Any engineer from Itanium hardware here ???    Regards    FC         =====  ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?5 Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.  http://mailplus.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:16:45 +0530 8 From: "Rohit Prasad" <rohit.prasad@tatainfotech-ncc.com> Subject: Help with Datatrieve.L Message-ID: <KOEFJLDGINJGFMANNGEAKEJOCBAA.rohit.prasad@tatainfotech-ncc.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C2A21B.6460AFF0  Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1"  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   L I have written a datatrieve procedure that creates a report for the clients.E I am thinking of calling this Datatrieve procedure from a DCL command 1 procedure. Can somebody please help me with this.   F My guess is that when I create a Datatrieve procedure a .DTR file getsI created at someplace. We then have to assign this .DTR file with its full $ path to the logical name DTR$STARTUP   Thanks   Rohit Prasad  + ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01C2A21B.6460AFF0 " Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; 	name="winmail.dat" ! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64   Content-Disposition: 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 Date: 11 Dec 2002 12:29:23 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)a4 Subject: Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mount3 Message-ID: <TKpd4GjAir45@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <OFA45BE2D4.2DF50D1E-ON85256C8C.00695475@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >  > Cannot open that url >   ; 	I can.  Keep in mind URLs wrap.  There are small downsides < 	to text based stuff.  But at least I don't have a pop-up ad 	reading/writing Usenet :-),   				Rob2    E > From:  young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) on 12/11/2002 11:37 AMA > 9 > Please respond to young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)I >  > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:n > 9 > Subject:    Re: How many HSG80 targets can a node mounti >  >  > In articleK > <E4C719674FB8C2A2.FB4518A21DFCB0B6.2539303622E6209D@lp.airnews.net>, "Halt! > Kuff" <Kuff@Tessco.Com> writes:sD >>     Thanxs.. actually I was looking for the total number of units > publishedm >> by an HSG80B >> `that a 7.2-2 and/or 7.3-1 node can see...  I think there was a > limitation >> at one time of 30?f >> > B >              128 LUNS per storage system.  See footnotes on page >              91: > d > http://www.hp.com/products1/storage/products/san/fibreswitches/SAN_Design_RefGuide-AA-RMPNE-TE.pdf >  > 6 >                                                  Rob >  >  >  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:24:35 +0100a1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>i Subject: HP and DirecTV 5 Message-ID: <3DF8D463.512E818E@swissonline.delete.ch>   A I see that DirecTV signed a deal with HP today to "to provide theh> technology platform and ongoing managed services and support".  H The full article is at various sources eg. via Yahoo! Financial news for HP, or the Bloomberg report atF http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news that I have partially extracted belowl  E I'm intrigued that it is reportedly for Tru64 Unix on an Alpha GS boxwH (see 2nd paragraph) when DirecTV has been a long-time VMS user (see lastG paragraph that I have included).  I also note that they have been usinga@ VMS systems for billing (and expanded it just last year) but are( apparently switching o Tu64 for billing.    D Is it a reporter's error or are DirecTV really switching platforms ?   Any comments anyone ??     John McLean(   -----------------------e    > HP and DIRECTV Sign Managed Services and Technology Agreement;H State-of-the-Art Customer Billing Environment to Support DIRECTV Growth   # Business Editors/High-Tech Writers    F PALO ALTO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 12, 2002--HP (NYSE:HPQ) todayA announced a five-year agreement with DIRECTV, Inc. to provide the4D technology platform and ongoing managed services and support for theD nation's leading digital satellite television service provider to 11 million customers nationwide. C Under terms of the contract, HP will deliver and manage an advanceds= computing infrastructure to support the operation, growth andhH performance of DIRECTV's billing environment, allowing it to concentrate! on its core business strategies.    H The managed services contract calls for the deployment of HP AlphaServerD GS series servers running Tru64 UNIX(R), HP StorageWorks storage andE third-party billing software by DST Innovis. HP Services will overseeyD complete management of DIRECTV's 24x7 billing environment, providingE DIRECTV with expanded service levels and a more predictable method ofa$ subscriber tracking and management.   G "This expansion of HP's relationship with DIRECTV is a testament to ourkE proven track record as an infrastructure and services provider," saidnF Ann Livermore, executive vice president, HP Services. "By establishingD an excellent rapport with DIRECTV and delivering on our promises, weC have built a relationship based on trust and useful, quality-driveny
 technology."    ? HP is a longtime IT partner with DIRECTV, hosting the satellite.B television service provider's billing computing infrastructure forG nearly 10 years. Last year, HP installed a 114-terabyte HP StorageWorkssE storage area network (SAN) to support DIRECTV's billing applications,1G one of the largest VMS SANs ever deployed for corporate use anywhere int	 the worldo   ... (continues)d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:30:08 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>e Subject: Re: HP and DirecTVd' Message-ID: <3DF8D5B0.6FF2667F@aaa.com>.  2 Also note that DirectTV have been one of the major reference sites for Oracle Rdb.d   Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   John McLean wrote: > C > I see that DirecTV signed a deal with HP today to "to provide the @ > technology platform and ongoing managed services and support". > G > I'm intrigued that it is reportedly for Tru64 Unix on an Alpha GS box J > (see 2nd paragraph) when DirecTV has been a long-time VMS user (see last" > paragraph that I have included).
 > John McLeana   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 07:56:33 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?3 Message-ID: <VT1dKGl0Q97p@eisner.encompasserve.org>    [Top-posting repaired] In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A523@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:  > -----Original Message-----= > From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net]  - > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:21 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn2 > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?   [Larry Kilgallen writing here]N >> That is the problem DEC had when they were still trying to build faster VAXM >> systems. They kept telling people to use clusters and parallel processors,0. >> but that does not help on sequential tasks.   [William Bochnik responding]M > um, clusters are not for faster processing (except in certain cases) - they: > are for high availability9  C Although clusters provide for high availability, one of their major A selling points is (or was) as a way to provide an incremental and : transparent upgrade path for faster and faster processing.  B Faster defined in terms of higher aggregate throughput, of course.  > Need more processor power?  Add a node.  Need more disk space?= Add a drive.  Need more terminals?  Add a DECserver.  And youa2 don't have to take the cluster down for any of it.  > As Larry points out, this doesn't help performance of a single? threaded application except to the extent that it gives all ther9 other single threaded applications somewhere else to run.s  D A key advantage of VMS clustering over some of the other hot-standby= pseudo-clustering techniques is in terms of performance.  ThepE redundant nodes doesn't just sit there idle.  They can perform useful  work.b   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 08:31:46 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?3 Message-ID: <TRxlWwP6ERza@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  T In article <VT1dKGl0Q97p@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:   > @ > As Larry points out, this doesn't help performance of a singleA > threaded application except to the extent that it gives all theR; > other single threaded applications somewhere else to run.' > F > A key advantage of VMS clustering over some of the other hot-standby? > pseudo-clustering techniques is in terms of performance.  ThelG > redundant nodes doesn't just sit there idle.  They can perform usefuli > work.e >    	Hear! Hear!  - 	But the sales angle / excuse for that is ...+  9 	You need test and development.  So that fallover node iso< 	for test and development.  4-8 processors, multi-gigabyte, 9 	$150K+ test and development environment.  And yes, each  < 	mission critical app of course has their own fallover node,> 	certainly "can't" mix testing environments or fallover nodes.  C 	Fast forward two years or so... now you can "save money" by buyingpC 	fewer really large boxes and carving them up into LPARs, resourcesr3 	are dynamically shifted... requiring less overall.e  D 	I'm really intersted in how sales will be churned 3 years from now. 	uF 	I think they are running out of churning techniques, you would think!   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:27:42 -0500 5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> 0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?O Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D5B35F40@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>   L that's what I meant by "in certain cases" - a big compute intensive job willE not benfit, but use a "timeshareing" system - order processing, email B (allin1 :-) ) etc and yes you get both redundancy and performance.   -----Original Message-----A From: briggs@encompasserve.org [mailto:briggs@encompasserve.org] s) Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 8:57 AMd To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml0 Subject: RE: Is a process bound to only one CPU?     [Top-posting repaired]
 In articleD <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A523@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>,7 "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:0 > -----Original Message-----< > From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net]- > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:21 PMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 2 > Subject: Re: Is a process bound to only one CPU?   [Larry Kilgallen writing here]D >> That is the problem DEC had when they were still trying to build D >> faster VAX systems. They kept telling people to use clusters and C >> parallel processors, but that does not help on sequential tasks.o   [William Bochnik responding]I > um, clusters are not for faster processing (except in certain cases) -    > they are for high availability  K Although clusters provide for high availability, one of their major sellingbE points is (or was) as a way to provide an incremental and transparent . upgrade path for faster and faster processing.  B Faster defined in terms of higher aggregate throughput, of course.  K Need more processor power?  Add a node.  Need more disk space? Add a drive.nF Need more terminals?  Add a DECserver.  And you don't have to take the cluster down for any of it.y  G As Larry points out, this doesn't help performance of a single threaded L application except to the extent that it gives all the other single threaded# applications somewhere else to run.   D A key advantage of VMS clustering over some of the other hot-standbyG pseudo-clustering techniques is in terms of performance.  The redundant A nodes doesn't just sit there idle.  They can perform useful work.i   	John Briggs    I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged andhJ confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is J strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theI original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or J instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying$ out such orders and/or instructions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:26:14 -0500i5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?, Message-ID: <3df775e0_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DF6BE68.DEC7CA2E@fsi.net>...t >Fred Kleinsorge wrote: 	 >> [snip]e6 >> And say we spent the many millions of $$$ to do it, >wF >If it costs that much, consider sending your project managers to some
 >training. >u  I You really don't have a clue about what the engineering costs are do you?f. You really think this is some weekend project.   >> and pulled all thee, >> engineers off of everything else to do it > G >Throw your pendulum back the other way, make sure it sticks at neitheroG >extreme and wait for it to settle to center. Then, you'll be where you  >want to be. >   G I'm not at an extreme.  We have a limited amount of resources.  We have H lists of critical, needed, wishful, and "it would be nice" projects.  WeH can't staff them all.  We are committed to IA64.  Pick the things on theJ list we should *not* do.  You *might* argue that Hammer is a better choiceK than Itanium - but regardless - IA32 would have to be done *in addition to*cJ a IA32 project.  So, should we not do a new file system?  Drop performanceK projects?  UNIX portability?  COE?  Marvel?  IO adapters?  You need to drop2 a few of them at least.   J To do it as *incremental* work without dropping other work would require aI business analysis that would show a substantial ROI - and nothing squishypK like it would make a nice development platform for the little guys - a usedCK DS10 or XP1000 makes a nice platform.  And shortly, you will be able to get/ Itanium2 workstations.  D >Not sure why it's always one way or the other. The middle ground is1 >increasingly becoming "the road less travelled".d >i >> - what would we have? >_
 >A market? >_C >Ask yourself: there are more than 200 million IA32 machines in the I >world, probably 10% of that are servers of Proliant class or better. The_G >software market for that hardware represents tens (if not hundreds) offE >billions of dollars annually, and still growing. VMS's share of that_: >market is - how much? (Answer just above the sig., below) >t  . And unless VMS == Windows this is meaningless.   >> Would it A >> help our large box customers with better high CPU count boxes?h >:H >Focus on markets as is their due. How many hundreds of millions of suchF >systems exist in the world today? (Answer just above the sig., below) >   . And unless VMS == WIndows this is meaningless.  	 >> Higherc >> reliability?f >aI >There's an old proverb: "that which does not kill us makes us stronger".h >:   What on earth does this mean?   ? >> What?  It would provide a binary incompatable low-end is allf >> it would do.f >aI >Given the curent lack of applications for VMS, the downside of that is -n >what? >   L And you are dreaming if you think that magic would happen and everyone wouldJ buy a Pentium running VMS and start writing shrink wrap applications.  You  are engaged in wishful thinking.  4 >> We respond to market opportunities is what we do. > G >Then why have not yet seen OpenVMS IA32? Exactly how is a niche marketnI >constituting less than 1% of the total market a greater opportunity thans >addessing the market-at-large?" >T  J VMS does not have the capabilities today to be a desktop system to competeL with Windows on the desk - neither does Linux today even with all the peopleL and work that has been done on it (substantially more people and effort thanL has been available for VMS).  Nor in any pipe dream do I see that happening.   >> We invested the money and> >> engineers to do DII/COE because a market segment needed it. >eH >How many market segments are there? Which of them represent the bulk of2 >the EDP market in total? (Select all that apply.) >o >> We're doingG >> UNIX compatability for the same reasons - a market segment needs it.e >  >Same comment. >  >>  WeJ >> develop or pay to have developed eBusiness solutions - because a markeyJ >> segment needs it.  We're making real decisions every day, based on what ourlG >> customers are asking for - and paying for by buying our hardware andl >> services. >-= >So, why was Alpha killed? How many customers requested that?w >f  H It was killed because it was increasingly a poor investment.  Did I makeJ that analysis?  No, but I have to accept it.  Customers requested a changeF by *not* buying Alpha in droves, for what we would say were "inferior"J products - HW and SW.  VMS is a good business, but it's (and Tru64) volumeL alone could not sustain Alpha. [Of course, this baits the Bill Tod Knows AllG response about his analysis about why Alpha solved world hunger and theiH Luddites killed it - it doesn't matter - his opinion and mine did not goD into the analysis that retired future development in favor of IA64].  > >The demand for Affordable OpenVMS is on-going. Where is that? >tF >IA64 has been trying to get out of the gate for a decade plus, AlphasF >are on ramp-down and VAX is extinct while IA32 CPUs are still in fullH >development and production. Where is the OpenVMS to satisfy the need ofD >*THAT* "market segment" (i.e., the preponderant bulk of the current >world-wide EDP market)? >.  J Again, IA32 will not solve our problem.  Nor would VMS running on it causeJ some massive switch from Windows.  More people drive cars than fly planes,L but Boeing hasn't stopped making planes to build cars.  VMS on IA32 would beF along those lines.  Less capable.  Not a replacement for Alpha, now or possibly ever.  E >> That is to say, real customers, spending real money, want specificSI >> capabilities and we make the business case for investment.  So far thenJ >> investment needed to create a IA32 version of VMS has been too high for anyi >> potential return on it. >iH >Check the numbers again... ...and again, and again, and again until you >get right!o >o  F You check your numbers.  You don't have any market research.  You haveI (obviously) no idea about engineering costs, or just how big a job it is.e  ? >Better still, stop playing with the numbers, and JUST DO IT!!!r >i   Good business sense on display.   C >Your can't spend all your time at "Ready! Aim! Aim! Aim! Aim! ..."hH >Eventually, ya gotta Fire! One of my mentors holds that "I'd rather seeG >a crooked furrow than a field unplowed". That is, "Ready! Fire!", thennH >Aim. You may hit nothing at first, but at least you'll hit SOMEthing  -E >eventually! Keep refining your aim while firing. Sure you'll "waste"sE >some rounds, but if you learn from your feedback, you'll get the aime1 >right much faster than if you never fire at all!  >b  L We are firing.  We are building VMS for IA64.  *You* don't like that answer.I But many customers, buying lots of hardware have told us that they are on H board with it, and will be buying Itanium VMS.  Will every techno weenieJ like you and I be happy with the IA64 ISA?  No.  But I am pretty confidentI that IA64 will be able to sell the same price/performance/capability that5I Alpha does - ignoring the flame-fest of how good Alpha "could have been".t  E >Rumor has it, "Emerald" came very close to actually running, even ifiI >"iVMS" didn't promise to be quite up to VMS's standard. Even W2K started0F >life as DOS V1.0, from a certain perspective. Linus's original kernel0 >was barely a shadow of the latest-and-greatest. >e  J Emerald became NT.  What's your point.  Do I agree that DEC shot itself inJ the foot what we *didn't* replace VMS with the "Next Big Thing" - you bet.@ If you think that someone is going to make a bet on developing aJ mini/almost/quasi VMS for IA32 and hope it becomes the next Windows -- youJ *are* dreaming.  NT itself would have failed except for the cancer it runsK called Windows.  The kernel that eventually became NT *might* have been the @ grand unified solution for DEC - if we had done it 15 years ago.  H >Linus didn't care where his little 386 UNIX-like kernel was headed when@ >he first posted it on bulletin boards around Europe. Now it's a* >multi-billion dollar world-wide industry. > 9 >Some times, "nonsense", in the end, makes perfect sense!2 >c  I If it's sooo darn easy - join the little project to write a freeware VMS.cK You'll find it isn't all that easy - but hey, you are brilliant and this is7D weekend work - right.  I'll be *thrilled* when it gets out there and	 succeeds.<  A Linux is succeeding because it is for all intents and purposes anwD unencumbered UNIX.  If it wasn't yet-another-UNIX flavor it would beL nothing.  You want to develop an unencumbered freeware VMS - I'm all for it.  H >> I think it's keen that Sun is collecting $20 a pop for something that costD >> them relatively little to do, and I imagine the $20 doesn't cover support.. >> Sounds like a cheap hobbyist program to me. > E >Somehow, I think there's a lesson for VMS there, as well! AffordableaG >downloadable distro.'s? I'll not address that - search the archives oftB >this group - it'll turn up much more than I can say, that much is	 >certain!o >   E Sure.  We should charge $20 for old desktop VMS licenses for your old K VAXstations.  Sun brushes off an IA32 UNIX port, and sells 50 cent CD's forGD $20.  I don't think we have something like that we can offer that is; equivalent - unless we just start giving VAX licenses away.u  G >...and if you're looking for money to fund an IA32 port, well, see the%: >earlier post! "$28 million" is what you're looking for... >e  / It won't come close to paying for an IA32 port.e  	 >Answers:v+ >VMS's share of the IA32 market: $zero($0).sG >Number of high-CPU count systems in the world: less than 400,000 (lesse# >than 1% of the total IA32 market).@ >.G >Sorry - none of those arguments hold water, especially from a businesse
 >perspective.0 >1  I You offer no answers that are feasible, just wishful thinking.  I wish wecK had tons of people and money sitting around to do lots of things.  But IA32tH wouldn't even get into the top 10 of the things I'd like to do with VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:45:20 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?/ Message-ID: <3DF7B1EC.5527DB36@vl.videotron.ca>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote:3 > can't staff them all.  We are committed to IA64.    M Your mean your employer has announced a commitment to IA64 and is forcing youmI to abide by that commitment. The question becomes: what happens when yourn% employer's commitment to IA64 drops ?s   Here si a question: J Lets say that sometime in 2003 , Hammer comes out and intel announces thatL further development of IA64 will be limited to speed bumps, and a new 64 bitM 8086 announced. With the work that will have been done to port VMS to IA64 by.9 then, how long would it take to then port VMS to Hammer ?9    1 year ? 2 years ? 3 years ?      E > >Ask yourself: there are more than 200 million IA32 machines in thei  0 > And unless VMS == Windows this is meaningless.  M How do you think that Linux became popular ?  It has a minimal % of installed M wintel machines, but it still garnered a lot of eyeballs, media attention and E is taken seriously by the likes of IBM and Oracle.  IBM sees the 8086eF installed base as a point of entry into customers who later on will be) buyingmore capable Power based machines. e  M One only has to look at the recent history of Linux to see how "momentun" ande- "visibility" result in growth in that market.g  L > VMS does not have the capabilities today to be a desktop system to compete > with Windows on the desk d  N VMS had it then. DECwrite, Calendar etc.  And yes, the CDA converters did haveL a WORD converter, as well as wordperfect. Remember that VMS was WAY ahead of its time, but lacked marketing.2  J Note that more and more organisations, especially in europe, are mandatingM that an "all windows" policy is no longer legal. The german government signed K a big contracts with IBM to supply non-windows platforms in order to ensuretR there is competition and proper bidding process by suppliers of IT infrastructure.    
 $STATEMENT_1:T  J > It was killed because it was increasingly a poor investment.  Did I make/ > that analysis?  No, but I have to accept it. t  R Your statement should have finished with "No, but I have to toe the company line".   And it should have begun with :tA "It was killed because someone decided it was a poor investment".        > Customers requested a changeH > by *not* buying Alpha in droves, for what we would say were "inferior" > products - HW and SW.     K No. Customers wanted Alpha. They just wanted more affordable VMS, at a timehI when Digital and Compaq had decided to restrict VMS to the very high end.o  J If HP-UX was able to have great success with PA-Risc during the 1990s, howN come Digital couldn't have had the same success with Alpha ? If Sun can afford8 to have its own chip, how come Digital/Compaq couldn't ?  N Alpha couldn't be made cheaply ? How do you explain Multia ?  Where there is aN will, there is a way.  Alpha might not have been able to compete against Dell,M but on the other hand, perhaps Dell might have adopted Alpha if MS-Office andtF the most popular games (and 3d video cards() were available for Alpha.  L > Again, IA32 will not solve our problem.  Nor would VMS running on it cause$ > some massive switch from Windows.     L Lets say windows has 500 million users, and VMS has 400,000. If only 400,000K windows users were to switch to VMS, it wouldn't make a visible dent in theoG windows market, but it would give VMS a 100% increase, a HUGE amount offL publicity, momentum and attract ISVs whi stayed away from VMS because it was seen as dying.  M It isn't a question of killing windows, it is a question of seing a potentialnI market for VMS. And the potential in the 8086 installed base is HUGE frome VMS's point of view.  N > but Boeing hasn't stopped making planes to build cars.  VMS on IA32 would beH > along those lines.  Less capable.  Not a replacement for Alpha, now or > possibly ever.  N No. VMS on 8086 would be like a Jaguar outfitted with chevrolet engine, VMS on$ Alpha would be like the real Jaguar.  L > like you and I be happy with the IA64 ISA?  No.  But I am pretty confidentK > that IA64 will be able to sell the same price/performance/capability that K > Alpha does - ignoring the flame-fest of how good Alpha "could have been".t  J If Alpha was a superior architecture with greater potential, and IA64 willM cost just as much as Alpha,  then $GOTO STATEMENT_1 and explain why IA64 is a  better investment than Alpha.i   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 05:47:42 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0212120547.43075881@posting.google.com>.   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<3DF7472F.9060103@nospamn.sun.com>...u > David J. Dachtera wrote:, > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > > 
 > >>[snip]; > >>Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.  > >  > >  > > Excuse me? > > 6 > > How many nodes are supported in a Solaris cluster? > >  > 4 > If you use SunFire Link then its currently 8 nodes > with a switch. > 0 > If you use F15K's then you could have 98 CPU's% > per node with 2 SunFire Link cards.s > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison   = and if you use VMS you can use 96 nodes w/multiple cpu's at a=? distance of 500 miles ... and VMS clustering actually works ...M6 after 25 years it still kicks @$? over anyone else ...; so why waste your money on cheap imitations folks, get real_ clustering with OpenVMS!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:06:10 GMTp* From: "Mark E. Levy" <levy@sysman-inc.com>6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <mJ0K9.324466$NH2.22659@sccrnsc01>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3DF809FF.F31E9F47@fsi.net...t$ > 4. Continue to resist OpenVMS-IA32  G David, see my earlier posting on why VMS on IA32 is a nearly impossible 4 task. The hardware support just isn't there for VMS.   Mark   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 06:37:25 -0800( From: levy@sysman-inc.com (Mark E. Levy)6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?= Message-ID: <9cc297d5.0212120637.478570a5@posting.google.com>   7 david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote in message R  P > Not sure if those can be considered valid objections anymore - after all we doH > have VAX hardware emulators running on IA32 which allow VMS to be run.H > However I don't see the point of porting to IA32 (especially since the7 > emulators exist) when IA32 has a very limited future.6N > If you want to run VMS on a spare IA32 box then get one of the VAX emulators > and run it. J > Since I have severe doubts about the future viability of IA64 I would be- > happier for HP to port VMS to 64bit Hammer.B >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University  A While that's true, David, I doubt the performance would make manymA happy. Furthermore, since it would be running 'on top' of some M$E> crapware, the reliability wouldn't be there either. This againD relegates it to the hobbyist realm. Why should HP expend significantD $$$'s for a group who won't be paying for it in the first place? But> even more importantly, it makes no sense to divert engineering? resources away from the IA64 port (which has greater potential,A" whether you agree with it or not).  1 I agree with your sentiments about a Hammer port.L  	 Mark Levyd   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:05:17 +0000z' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyo6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3DF8A5AD.8090002@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:/ > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<3DF7472F.9060103@nospamn.sun.com>...H >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >>+ >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:X >>>B >>>T
 >>>>[snip]; >>>>Scalability or rather you were right not to mention it.1 >>>w >>>V
 >>>Excuse me?l >>>+5 >>>How many nodes are supported in a Solaris cluster?j >>>8 >>4 >>If you use SunFire Link then its currently 8 nodes >>with a switch. >>0 >>If you use F15K's then you could have 98 CPU's% >>per node with 2 SunFire Link cards.x >>	 >>RegardsP >>Andrew HarrisonQ >  > ? > and if you use VMS you can use 96 nodes w/multiple cpu's at agA > distance of 500 miles ... and VMS clustering actually works ...28 > after 25 years it still kicks @$? over anyone else ...= > so why waste your money on cheap imitations folks, get realX > clustering with OpenVMS!  1 You could but very very few people do, one of them4 cluster surveys 4-5 years ago found that the average4 number of nodes in an OpenVMS/VMS cluster was 6 with few in double figures.  4 If you couple this with the fact that the throughput3 of each OpenVMS node has always been 1/4 of that ofA9 the largest Sun and you end up with a rather unimpressiveX story.   Regardsc Andrew HarrisonQ   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:17:17 +00002' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancys6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?, Message-ID: <3DF8A87D.70509@nospamn.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DF2AD72.702E76D6@fsi.net>...g >  > * >>DEC Listens? Compaq Listens? HP Listens? >>  >>The testimony is unmistakable. >>7 >>Sun has demonstrated responsiveness to its user base.Y >>H >>VMS has demonstrated ... well, you can finish that sentence, I'm sure. >> >  >    > L > I think it's keen that Sun is collecting $20 a pop for something that costL > them relatively little to do, and I imagine the $20 doesn't cover support.- > Sounds like a cheap hobbyist program to me.V >  >   5 Right so it doesn't cost Sun that much to put Solarisw0 on x86 and we derive an incremental benefit from it.A  - Why does this not apply to OpenVMS as well ??D   RegardsA Andrew HarrisonA   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:35:40 +0100G5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk>A6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?, Message-ID: <3df8acde$1@news.swissonline.ch>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>A9 wrote in message news:3DF8A5AD.8090002@nospamn.sun.com...w >A3 > You could but very very few people do, one of theb6 > cluster surveys 4-5 years ago found that the average6 > number of nodes in an OpenVMS/VMS cluster was 6 with > few in double figures. >26 > If you couple this with the fact that the throughput5 > of each OpenVMS node has always been 1/4 of that ofk; > the largest Sun and you end up with a rather unimpressivem > story.  H Very provocative and about as factually correct as a Sun sales brochure.  I Give us an example of Solaris running within a 6-node cluster. Or 5. Or 4U for that matter, etc.1  E Give us proof of your throughput statement. I manage both Solaris andAK OpenVMS support teams and my experience indicates a very different world to  your Land of Makebelieve..  ! Good luck with that clustering...n   - Chrisg   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:50 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyC6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?. Message-ID: <3DF8C3CE.2070804@nospamn.sun.com>   Chris Clifford wrote: M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; > wrote in message news:3DF8A5AD.8090002@nospamn.sun.com...u > 3 >>You could but very very few people do, one of theA6 >>cluster surveys 4-5 years ago found that the average6 >>number of nodes in an OpenVMS/VMS cluster was 6 with >>few in double figures. >>6 >>If you couple this with the fact that the throughput5 >>of each OpenVMS node has always been 1/4 of that ofa; >>the largest Sun and you end up with a rather unimpressive  >>story. >  > J > Very provocative and about as factually correct as a Sun sales brochure. > K > Give us an example of Solaris running within a 6-node cluster. Or 5. Or 4  > for that matter, etc.> > G > Give us proof of your throughput statement. I manage both Solaris and M > OpenVMS support teams and my experience indicates a very different world tot > your Land of Makebelieve.M >   > Check any of the major public audited benchmarks, TPC-C, TPC-H; SAP, Oracle apps etc etc. Go back as far as the 8400, there-? has never been a case that shows Alpha systems to be performant  or price competive.d  ; Of course Alpha does give great SPECint and SPECfp but thenE: as Freddy memorably pointed out the optimisations used for; SPECint and SPECfp were unlikely to be usefull for customern@ apps. It isn't a view I necessarely endorse but it was memorable= since they are almost the only benchmarks that did show AlphaB( in a good light and Freddy works for HP.  : And since 2 x F15K's are roughly equivalent to 4-6 GS320's7 we are well up on OpenVMS in terms of throughput with a  much smaller number of systems.s  < One customer I work with has 2 x F15K's clustered, the other has 4 clustered.   regards  Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:11:16 -0000j2 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>' Subject: Re: PIPE/BACKUP/SEARCH problemr4 Message-ID: <at9jsa$p84$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>  3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message-0 news:200212110949.KAA29628@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... > Hello, > G > I did search for RELEASE_NOTES within the DECset124 kit under OpenVMSC > with the following command:H >-? > $PIPE BACK/LIST CD:[DECSET124.KIT]DECSET124.*/SAVE | SEARCH -0 > SYS$INPUT RELEASEy  ' bac/lis/sel=(*release*,*.*release*) ...C  L would seem a lot neater & more efficient - but maybe that wasn't the point ?   Chrisr   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:27:04 GMT1" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <00A18538.54EE595C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  S In article <uvg1td1kdmlmea@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:l5 >Chris Clifford <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk> wrote:eH >: The most important thing is to VMSize it to gain maximum benefit. For >: example:r > L >: - Ensure that the application is distributed between cluster members withL >: the ability to quickly fail over should a cluster member fail, perhaps byJ >: running multiple instances of a process and utilising the lock manager. >eH >: - Consider using ICC for communication between application processes.+ >: Maximum performance and highly reliable.  >E@ >I could not agree LESS.  You NEVER want to tie to an o/s unlessA >you HAVE TO.  VMSize the app and you make moving it off VMS evens >harder.    They're moving onto VMS not off.  E If the app was written in a fashion that isolate certain platform de-aD pendant issues, the port would be far simpler.  The problem is that < the unix in the world seem to thing that everything is unix.    8 >Only do it if you really need the features/performance.  D I've seen this before...  I've heard users dissing a VMS environmentC because the app they're using is so poorly ported it runs like shitlF on VMS.  It's not the VMS environment that they should be dissing but ! you can't educate them otherwise.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM0            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" j   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:15:29 -0500n! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>t( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3DF89A01.7D471FAF@vcu.edu>r  D Right... why settle for that when you can have whatever vms end date is??? i forget, 38,000 A.D.??n   Roy Omond wrote: > 
 > Z wrote: >  > > Jim Agnew  wrote:hJ > > : You also want to use VMS time routines, and avoid the 2037 unix timeD > > : overflow...  that way, your app should live forever (almost).. > >h > > No need. > >o# > > Compaq C V6.5-001-48BCD on VMS:- > >-3 > > t1: 00000000, ctime(): Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969c3 > > t2: 7FFFFFFF, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:07 2038l3 > > t3: 80000000, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:08 2038s3 > > t4: FFFFFFFF, ctime(): Sun Feb  7 01:28:15 21065 > B > Evidently there *is* a need!  Looks to me like the time overflow6 > has just been postponed by a "few" years until 2106. > ' > Tut, tut, such poor forward thinking!m! > Go to the back of the class :-)e >  > Roy Omondn > Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:14:26 -0500o! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>a( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3DF899C2.E6A90676@vcu.edu>u   Chris Clifford wrote:s >    stuff chainsawed...t    L > You can make things easier if you think there's a possibility that the appL > will be moved off VMS at a later date. Don't embed system services and VMSN > RTL calls within your main functions, instead separate the platform-specificK > stuff in their own functions so that if you port to another O/S, you justsI > need to rewrite those smaller functions. Standard programming practice.a > 
 > - Chris.  C hear, hear, been there, done that... I've written an ICU monitoringoE system waay back in '83 that we compile uphill *both ways* in June ineH the snow...  ;-)  on a pdp-11/23, 128K ram with 4 users.  when taskbuildH time came, the users didn't really complain, since we'd fixed the tkb to run at lower prio..p  E anyway, I did just that, stuffed the special stuff into subroutines. iC we've survived 3 generations of ICU monitors, 3 corporations of theoD computer, 3 upgrades pdp11>vax750>vax3900+vaxstation 3100m78...   no sweat...  F only hurdle of moving it off vms is the lack of a vms-like fortran... H now i've seen hints of a fortran to perl translator, anyone know of it??   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:42:37 GMT6" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <00A1854B.44670AC2@SendSpamHere.ORG>  T In article <3DF887EB.648C5E31@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:" >VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> LV >> In article <uvg1td1kdmlmea@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: >oC >> >I could not agree LESS.  You NEVER want to tie to an o/s unlessoD >> >you HAVE TO.  VMSize the app and you make moving it off VMS even >> >harder.e >> r# >> They're moving onto VMS not off.h >> sH >> If the app was written in a fashion that isolate certain platform de-F >> pendant issues, the port would be far simpler.  The problem is that? >> the unix in the world seem to thing that everything is unix.d >> p; >> >Only do it if you really need the features/performance.  >> rG >> I've seen this before...  I've heard users dissing a VMS environmentdF >> because the app they're using is so poorly ported it runs like shitH >> on VMS.  It's not the VMS environment that they should be dissing but$ >> you can't educate them otherwise. >"& >(Hope I've got the attribution right) >  >Hear hear!! > H >Some of these so called multi platform applications that are not on VMSH >- we can live without them. Why? Because the application, because it isH >coded to the lowest common denominator (some UNIX or other) cannot takeE >advantage of what VMS can offer. If you have a "silver service", you1I >don't go to the nearest fast food bar and dish it up on that, you employlA >(etc.) a chef to create a dish to be proud of appropriate to theD
 >environment.C  H But there's just nothing like dining on a Taco Bell dog food filled Taco6 off of the heirloom Royal Daulton Sherbrooke is there?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:39:43 +0100.5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk> & Subject: Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10, Message-ID: <3df891a8$1@news.swissonline.ch>  , "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message  news:3DF7D7A5.7070502@srv.net...- > How much does a TCPIP for VMS7.1 on a DS10?o >i >c5 > I've tried in the past to get a price, but the only 4 > price I ever got quoted was around $5000 per user,5 > which seemed high/wrong to me. Does anyone know then$ > real price/availability of TCPIP?? >   F The list price in the UK for a full TCP/IP licence for a DS10 is 2073% (around $3275). This is NOT per user.t  J A NET-APP-SUP-200 licence for a DS10 is listed as 2084 (around $3295) and	 licenses:    * DECwindows Motif * DECnet / DECnet-Plus * TCP/IP Servicess   - Chris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:05:04 -0700e% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>r& Subject: Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021212070424.017039b0@raptor.psccos.com>  G Of course, you can always check the pricing for MultiNet and TCPware...h* HP's software isn't the only game in town!  - At 06:39 AM 12/12/2002, Chris Clifford wrote: - >"Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message ! >news:3DF7D7A5.7070502@srv.net...d/ > > How much does a TCPIP for VMS7.1 on a DS10?n > >  > > 7 > > I've tried in the past to get a price, but the onlyy6 > > price I ever got quoted was around $5000 per user,7 > > which seemed high/wrong to me. Does anyone know thea& > > real price/availability of TCPIP?? > >m >eI >The list price in the UK for a full TCP/IP licence for a DS10 is =A32073r& >(around $3275). This is NOT per user. >iJ >A NET-APP-SUP-200 licence for a DS10 is listed as =A32084 (around $3295)=  and
 >licenses: >u >* DECwindows Motif  >* DECnet / DECnet-Pluso >* TCP/IP Services >n	 >- Chris.y   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:51:21 -0500s' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>r& Subject: RE: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660C0B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Kevin,  B >>> And no, the machine did not come with a TCPIP license for some? reason.  They just have a VMS, a USER, and a DECNET license, noe TCPIP/UCX/... license.<<<3  C Mmm .. I had thought all DS10's came with DECnet and TCPIP licenses@) bundled with the included EIP package.=20[  H Here is the url which describes the EIP pkg that comes with new systems:2 http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP6475/SP6475PF.PDF  8 Does the client have what p/n's were originally ordered?   Regardsh  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesl Voice: 613-592-4660o Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)          -----Original Message-----) From: Kevin Handy [mailto:kth@srv.net]=20o Sent: December 11, 2002 7:26 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi" Subject: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10    + How much does a TCPIP for VMS7.1 on a DS10?   4 I'm looking for at least an estimate so I can give a4 ballpark figure to a client, bur DEC/COMPAQ/HP seems0 to want to hide all the prices, making this very hard to do.   3 I've tried in the past to get a price, but the onlyo2 price I ever got quoted was around $5000 per user,3 which seemed high/wrong to me. Does anyone know thes" real price/availability of TCPIP??  / Also, where can you buy the license?  I've onlyl0 been able to find 3rd/4th party people who don't, even seem to understand what I'm asking for.  5 And no, the machine did not come with a TCPIP licenseq3 for some reason.  They just have a VMS, a USER, andm+ a DECNET license, no TCPIP/UCX/... license.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:45:48 +0100r5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk>o& Subject: Re: Pricing for TCPIP on DS10* Message-ID: <3df8af36@news.swissonline.ch>  2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message< news:5.1.0.14.2.20021212070424.017039b0@raptor.psccos.com...I > Of course, you can always check the pricing for MultiNet and TCPware... * HP's software isn't the only game in town!  ; Absolutely and I apologise for not mentioning alternatives.d   - Chrisi   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Dec 2002 10:44:34 -0800& From: john.mcqueen@gnf.com (J McQueen). Subject: Re: sys$wake returns after long delay< Message-ID: <6083b3a3.0212121044.6a476df@posting.google.com>  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3DF7D3EB.99EDF5A2@vl.videotron.ca>...l > J McQueen wrote:H > > hibernating process to be awakened.  When it awakes, I get identicalJ > > timestamps from both programs which indicates that the calling program4 > > waits that long for the sys$wake call to return. >  > O > if you do a SHOW SYS or SHOW PROC/ID=xxx/CONT on both processes, what happensl- > during the time where sys$wake "executes" ?k > I > You might see one of the dreaded RWAST or other process state on either % > process which will give you a clue.h  B I did this and process 2 always shows HIB even though it wakes up,D does its work so quickly, and then back to HIB state so that I never see anything other than HIB.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:47:32 GMTl4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: TCL for OpenVMS0 Message-ID: <3DF795AE.921114FC@blueyonder.co.uk>   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:  >  > Jakob Erber wrote: > >tC > > Is there a TCL package existing for OpenVMS AXP, which does noto> > > require Multinet? (We do not indent to use sockets in TCL) > J >  From what I can see the write ups for the TCL port that is available at7 > a link mentioned in this thread is a bit out of date.d > E > It may just work, or it may need some simple edits to make it work.i  ) Nope, early on in that page is the quote:W  Y "You will need Multinet's product to use sockets. I'm hoping someone does a port to UCX.">    e   --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk e  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 02:04:10 -0500s  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IPd4 Message-ID: <1021212015405.400A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  # On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, VMSuser wrote:s  B > First of all, I am NOT an expert with VMS, so if I sound stupid, > please be tolerant.l > E > I'm running VMS 7.2 and DIGITAL TCP/IP Services 5.0 on a VAXstationiA > 4000 VLC, and it works perfectly.  However, I have a lot of old*C > FORTRAN programs that were written under VMS 5.5 and many of themrB > won't run under 7.2, and I don't have all of the source files to  E That's very unusual.  Most VAX user-mode programs compiled and linkedKG as far back as I remember still work fine on VMS V7.3 (latest release.)   @ Are these programs doing something strange or poking around withB monitor internals?  If not, maybe there is a configuration problemA that can easily be worked around to let the programs work fine on 	 VMS V7.2.a  F > modify the code.  I can still boot to 5.5 so I can run the EXEs, butC > to my knowledge there aren't any versions of TCP/IP that will runi6 > under 5.5.  I need TCP/IP for remote logins and FTP.  6 There are loads of TCP/IP stacks that work on VMS V5.5  > UCX V4.x and older (the previous versions of DEC/CPQ/HP TCP/IP? Services) worked on VMS 5.5.  So does/did TCPWare (from Processg> Software) and CMU/IP (freeware).  I'm 99.9% sure that Multinet@ (also from Process Software) did, but I have not used it, so I'm? not certain.  Wollongong's Pathway (now defunct) also worked onp V5.5.N   > Any ideas on what I can do?r  ; I think your best bet would be to get your programs working : on V7.2.  Do you know why they don't work?  What errors do; they produce if you try to run them?  If it's just a matterd< of the original vendor saying "we don't support them anymore= and haven't tested them on VMS 7.2", then you could test them.: yourself.  I think it would be less work to test once than9 it would be to be constantly rebooting to switch back anda forth between V7.2 and V5.5.   HTHb   -- i John Santos, Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:20:09 +1100n1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>e Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IP., Message-ID: <3DF854C9.9000506@tg.nsw.gov.au>   John Santos wrote:% > On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, VMSuser wrote:d >  > B >>First of all, I am NOT an expert with VMS, so if I sound stupid, >>please be tolerant.  >>E >>I'm running VMS 7.2 and DIGITAL TCP/IP Services 5.0 on a VAXstationuA >>4000 VLC, and it works perfectly.  However, I have a lot of olduC >>FORTRAN programs that were written under VMS 5.5 and many of them B >>won't run under 7.2, and I don't have all of the source files to >  > G > That's very unusual.  Most VAX user-mode programs compiled and linkedyI > as far back as I remember still work fine on VMS V7.3 (latest release.)  > B > Are these programs doing something strange or poking around withD > monitor internals?  If not, maybe there is a configuration problemC > that can easily be worked around to let the programs work fine onp > VMS V7.2.e > 	 [snipped]m   John,,   Yes and no.   A My expectations are the same as yours in that something compiled e' C/Fortran or whatever should still run.r  H One point is that something compiled and linked on a newer VMS will not  run on an older version.  H RTLs have changed, and I suspect this is the problem.  I have inherited G a couple of CAD systems that corporate does not want a bar of.  I have hG to try to upgrade them from 6.2 to try to get the latest TCPIP working aH -- from a previous thread, the "latest" to me at the moment is only 5.1.  E I first tried to put on the environment that I know which includes a eD stupid quote provider written in Fortran (earlier stuff with Martin I Vorlander and Terry Kennedy).  This would not run because the executable eF was linked on VMS 7.2 and Fortran RTL 7.50a.  We can go forwards, not 
 backwards.  < Not suggesting that you don't know this, but the OP may not.  B One incompatability with the later Fortran RTLs is that they have < changed several IO routines to comply with the F95 standard.  I Not an answer to the OP, but just a thought that might contribute to his c problem.  C The VMS 6.2 CAD systems do not have any compilers, so I cannot try eE re-compiling my little program to test this validity, and none of my c machines are at less than 7.2.   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************l  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegede> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseaB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.t  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with rC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usess> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Dec 2002 02:28 CSTo' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)A Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IPm- Message-ID: <12DEC200202282629@gerg.tamu.edu>s   the41car@comcast.net writes...A }First of all, I am NOT an expert with VMS, so if I sound stupid,  }please be tolerant. } D }I'm running VMS 7.2 and DIGITAL TCP/IP Services 5.0 on a VAXstation@ }4000 VLC, and it works perfectly.  However, I have a lot of oldB }FORTRAN programs that were written under VMS 5.5 and many of themA }won't run under 7.2, and I don't have all of the source files to-  5 This is farily unusual - typically most of them work.0  E }modify the code.  I can still boot to 5.5 so I can run the EXEs, butWB }to my knowledge there aren't any versions of TCP/IP that will run5 }under 5.5.  I need TCP/IP for remote logins and FTP.t }  }Any ideas on what I can do?  H Do you have the object (.OBJ) files (or object library with them in it)?C If so, relinking on the new version of VMS could solve the problem.a  D There were IP stacks that for VMS V5.5. The DEC one was called UCX -F versions that are contemporary with VMS V5.5 were generally consideredF to be not very good, but should be sufficient for basic telnet and FTPC as long as the load on it is low. Multinet was also then and workedbE better than UCX did, sometimes a lot better. (There may be two otherspB as well - TCPware and a free one who's exact name is not coming toC me at the moment, possibly CMU or somthing like that.) I don't knownC what the newest version of UCX/TCPIP that supports a version of VMS F that old is - you'd have to check an archive of the SPDs. According toH and old version of the UCX FAC (from 1996), version 4.0 of UCX (releasedI in Nov-1995) may work on VMS V5.5-2, even though the SPD only claims thataH it will work on V6.0 or later, so you might try that if you can get yourL hands on it (there were some ECOs, i.e. patches, that you should apply too).J The version of UCX before V4.0 was V3.3, which might be the newest version& that was supposed to support VMS V5.5.  C Multinet and TCPware are both owned by Process Software these days.kD The current version of Multinet (V4.4A) is still listed as supported on VMS V5.5-2.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:15:13 -0000 2 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IPe4 Message-ID: <at9k3n$94t$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>  1 "VMSuser" <the41car@comcast.net> wrote in message 7 news:3df83ea5.207645598@news.pa.comcast.giganews.com...e2 > Thank you JF and John for responding so quickly. >rD > I was a bit surprised too that the EXEs didn't run under 7.2.  I'd> > rather stay with 7.2 instead of going back to 5.5, if I can. >e@ > The error message I'm getting when I try to run a few of these > programs is ...s > / > %SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHSEC, no such (global) section  > 3 > ... then lists the modules, routines, lines, etc.s  K That looks like an installed global section or something, which was presenteL on your 5.5 installation & is required, but isn't present, or isn't working, on the new.   , If it's not an installed file, I'm not sure.G See if you can track what global section it's talking about (follow thee* trace in an image you do have source for).   Chris-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:26:39 -0500D; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IP $ Message-ID: <3df8b8b8$1@news.si.com>  G >Although it does have an FTP server, you are better off picking up theh Madgoat FTP software.s  I That would now be HGFTP.  Madgoat doesn't have anything to do with it anyo more.n -- rA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comlA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com,= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventc< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:38:08 -0500i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: VMS & TCP/IPo/ Message-ID: <3DF8BB6E.B469AE22@vl.videotron.ca>e   Nic Clews wrote:1 > > %SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHSEC, no such (global) sectionfH > implicit on the directory location. The full listing will tell you howH > the images are installed, you need to check the HELP inside INSTALL to > see how to get the same.    H If an image is not installed, would VMS really issue the "global section missing" message ?  K Would one really setup an application to directly refer to a global section O created when another image was installed ? Wouldn't it simply link against it ?   L In install, you can also do LIST/GLOBAL which will list all global sections.N Looking at the .EXE file, you may find the hard coded text that refers to such a global section. 3 (copy the program.exe to program.tmp, then SET FILElR program.tmp/attrib=(lrl=80) , and then you can edit the file, no need to save it).    J > I should warn you there are some changes from V5 to V7, particularly forJ > privileged or 'fancy' code as the security methodology has been changed,  M But wouldn't that be generated during image activation, well before you'd getj) a traceback message listing modules etc ?u   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:22:04 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSa0 Message-ID: <00A18537.A251C2F6@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <uvg1n6n9epoq55@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: - ><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in messagee+ >news:00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG... J >> It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA has, >> been incorporated into HP's DPSS program. >>J >> Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Have4 >> you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK? >> >oL >Yes and yes.  I remember having problems when I was trying to get logged in" >but I don't remember the details.  3 Another that found the login process "challenging".   0 About your second Yes,  How do I order/renew it?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM-            h5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" y   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:59:43 -0500e% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>s1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSS / Message-ID: <uvhcjghshg81d2@news.supernews.com>.  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A18537.A251C2F6@SendSpamHere.ORG...@ > In article <uvg1n6n9epoq55@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:/ > ><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message - > >news:00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG... L > >> It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA has. > >> been incorporated into HP's DPSS program. > >>L > >> Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Have6 > >> you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK? > >> > >aK > >Yes and yes.  I remember having problems when I was trying to get loggede in$ > >but I don't remember the details. >s5 > Another that found the login process "challenging".v > 2 > About your second Yes,  How do I order/renew it? >A  K Basically you fill out the same form you've always filled out.  The hardest L part is finding the PDF of the form on the DSPP web site.  I've sent you the4 PDF via e-mail (if anyone else needs it, just yell).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:15:48 GMTd" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSn0 Message-ID: <00A18560.AB226C35@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <uvhcjghshg81d2@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:e- ><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in messagep+ >news:00A18537.A251C2F6@SendSpamHere.ORG...rA >> In article <uvg1n6n9epoq55@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero"w ><John@mvpsi.com> writes:h0 >> ><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message. >> >news:00A1846B.A8AB82E5@SendSpamHere.ORG...M >> >> It was bad enough when ASAP was subsumed into the CSA.  Now the CSA has1/ >> >> been incorporated into HP's DPSS program.  >> >>oM >> >> Has any former CSA member successfully logged into the DPSS site?  Have 7 >> >> you figured out how to get/order the OpenVMS SDK?/ >> >>r >> >L >> >Yes and yes.  I remember having problems when I was trying to get logged >inw% >> >but I don't remember the details.H >>6 >> Another that found the login process "challenging". >>3 >> About your second Yes,  How do I order/renew it?b >> >rL >Basically you fill out the same form you've always filled out.  The hardestM >part is finding the PDF of the form on the DSPP web site.  I've sent you theS5 >PDF via e-mail (if anyone else needs it, just yell)..  . John sent me the .PDF order form! Many thanks.   He also sent me a URL:  W http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/tech/tech_TechDocumentDetailPage_IDX/1,1701,4414,00.htmln    K This is the page that I previously found but I do not see a link to the PDFi order form.o   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             p5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" !   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:30:44 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>1 Subject: Re: VMS still a bastard child under DPSSe* Message-ID: <00A18595.0BE790F5.3@decus.de>  " <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:   > [...]  >eN > >Basically you fill out the same form you've always filled out.  The hardestO > >part is finding the PDF of the form on the DSPP web site.  I've sent you the-7 > >PDF via e-mail (if anyone else needs it, just yell).w >r0 > John sent me the .PDF order form! Many thanks. >u > He also sent me a URL: >e >gF http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/tech/tech_TechDocumentDetailPage_IDX/1, 1701,4414,00.html  >m >aM > This is the page that I previously found but I do not see a link to the PDFi
 > order form.h  # Found at the very top of that page:    (start of quote)  % Developer and Solution Partner Portal C The DSPP requires JavaScript for correct operation. You have either>F disabled JavaScript or have a browser that doesn't support JavaScript.D DSPP recommends use of IE 5.0 or above or Netscape 4.76 or above for
 best results.o   (end of quote)  . I didn't see any reference to a PDF file, too.   Michaelo   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:45:19 -0000r2 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>I Subject: Re: VMS73_SYS05 (& VMS731_SYS02) kills dce, pathworks, goldfax ?-4 Message-ID: <ataefm$6ff$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>  F > In article <aspt4c$mdp$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, "Chris Sharman"$ <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:K > >I installed the VMS73_SYS05 patch two weeks ago & rebooted. On rebootinguK > >dce, pathworks & goldfax were all broken (dce fixed with another support5L > >call, no luck yet with the others). Talking to DPD, suppliers of Goldfax,L > >they've got a similar problem with another customer, who's identified theK > >VMS731_SYS02 patch as causing his problem, which was released at roughly  theu5 > >same time, and is presumably a very similar patch.c > >nG > >Is anyone aware of any problem with this patch ? Is there a fix ? Isp backinga > >out advisable ? >t; "Peter LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in messageS, news:04nI9.33974$A9.507750@news.chello.at...I > We read about problems with this (both) patch(es) some days ago here in  COV.K > That's why I noted these patches as On-Hold (though they are still not !)u > in my very private ECO list. >aJ > I must however admit that I have VMS73_SYS05 already installed on my PWSJ > and I so far haven't seen problems on this machine (though my DNEWS NNTPJ > server still dies every night at ~2am with memory exceeded - but becauseK > I installed DNEWS some days after VMS73_SYS05 I can't blame the ECO yet)..  K I've still heard nothing 'official' about VMS73_SYS05, although there was an& VMS731_SYS02 problem which I'd missed.  E I've a workaround for the important faxes, so we've waited to reboot.   L Pathworks, according to the pathworks group in the Netherlands, should neverF have worked, because it should be configured for 32 users, even thoughH there's only 1 licence. The fact that it's worked for years like that isE apparently some kind of miracle, and the fact that it's now broken is4& nothing to do with anything, they say.  J TSC (UK) has advised me to back out VMS73_SYS05, as it's implicated by theK timing. There also seem to be one or two other anecdotes, here & elsewhere.oH I've a reboot window for Saturday night, so I'll be backing it out then.   Thanks,  Chrisu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:57:42 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>rV Subject: Re: [ANN] LORIA ANNOUNCES RELEASE 1.0 OF SMARTEIFFEL, THE GNU EIFFEL COMPILER$ Message-ID: <3df8b1ef$1@news.si.com>   >SmartEiffel runs on VMS  D My VMS system is a VAX.  I'll bet Smart Eiffel _doesn't_ run on VMS. -- nA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventr< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:53:44 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>6A Subject: [OT] Humor - was [Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem] ( Message-ID: <3DF8A2F8.3070707@rdrop.com>  B > The usual troubleshooting technique used in this situation is toC > strip the machine to its minimum configuration and test it. If it 0 > fails swap one part at a time until it passes.  5 Q: How does a Field Service Engineer fix a flat tire?PB A: He swaps out each tire, one at a time, until he finds the flat.  8 Q: How does a Field Service Engineer fix a dead Battery?D A: He swaps out each tire, one at a time, until he finds the flat...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:48:02 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.comE Subject: Re: [OT] Humor - was [Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem] ? Message-ID: <OFEF14BE64.7B19B894-ON85256C8D.00568A89@metso.com>    Actually, that should read:e  5 Q: How does a Field Service Engineer fix a flat tire? A A: He keeps swapping in spares until he gets the four good tires.   ! The second one is just not funny.O  = From:  Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> on 12/12/2002 09:53 AM3  1 Please respond to Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>m   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:a  D Subject:    [OT] Humor - was [Re: AlphaServer 4100 Power-Up Problem]    B > The usual troubleshooting technique used in this situation is toC > strip the machine to its minimum configuration and test it. If itt0 > fails swap one part at a time until it passes.  5 Q: How does a Field Service Engineer fix a flat tire?hB A: He swaps out each tire, one at a time, until he finds the flat.  8 Q: How does a Field Service Engineer fix a dead Battery?D A: He swaps out each tire, one at a time, until he finds the flat...   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.686 ************************    