1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 14 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 690       Contents:G Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...") " Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD# Re: announcing Customer First Times # Re: announcing Customer First Times  Re: copy/ftp) Re: DEC C and DEC CXX licenses (on a VAX) ) Re: DEC C and DEC CXX licenses (on a VAX) * Re: Determining a process' sub-process(es)* Re: Determining a process' sub-process(es)< FORTRAN90, CXML library, IEEE float & DENORM_RESULTS problem! How do you invalidate a dumpfile.  Re: HP and DirecTV Re: HP and DirecTV! Re: Internals and Data Structures ! Re: Internals and Data Structures  Re: Login lexical?C Migration minute of the day:  Pascal VAX/VMS 5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS 8.2 1 Re: misc HW maintenance end of life dates, where? B Re: Newbie:Openvms 7.2-1 on Alpha - Telent not cleaning up sockets- Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular? - Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS  Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS O Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup - No thanks! + Re: Some idiot tried to terrorise me today. + Re: Some idiot tried to terrorise me today. % Re: sys$wake returns after long delay 2 Re: Using the $AUDIT_EVENT System Service (from C) VAX 7810's.  RE: VAX SCAN PAK RE: VAX SCAN PAK  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:29:01 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>P Subject: Re: (Very) Affordable VMS on older gear (was: "VMS will be around ...")/ Message-ID: <3DFA511C.189E85A6@vl.videotron.ca>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:G > No, I am sorry you inferred that.  I was responding to the claim that L > HP faced some imperative to drop VAX support for which they have customers > paying handsomely.  N Please refer to all the Carly and Curly speeches during the takeover pregnancyH period where they both claimed that significant savings would occur fromA eliminating all different platforms and focusing on a single one.   I Yes, they are "bound" to continue to support VAX for another 2-3 years (5 L years after the last vax was sold, right ?), but their stated strategy wouldQ be to get as many folks off VAX as soon as possible, not to increase the numbers.   L It would be strategic for VMS to use those unused assets (old VAXes) towardsN assimilating new customers who would then possibly upgrade to current hardwareJ and pay (as long as prices are acceptable).  But I am not sure it would beB strategic for HP to allow old platforms to be given a second life.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:26:12 GMT # From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net + Subject: Re: Andrew repats his same old FUD 7 Message-ID: <3dfa5e0b.2299648609@news.bellatlantic.net>   F On 11 Dec 2002 07:13:14 -0600, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org     Hi Bob,   : Sheesh it's a VMS newsgroup and someones spouting sun fud! Give them what for.   D  Still running VMS here. I use V5.5h on a microvax2000 to do routingE and mail filtering at the end of a DSL line.  It's a gas watching the @ script kiddies _trying_ to hack it. the down stream machines are; 3100M76s and uVAX3100m10e's with V7.2.  I got very tired of ! PC based hardware and spoogeware.    Allison    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:32:39 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>, Subject: Re: announcing Customer First Times+ Message-ID: <00A18706.1DE702BB.11@decus.de>   6 "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote:   > [...]  > A > The newsletter is available at: www.hp.com/go/customerfirstnews * > <http://www.hp.com/go/customerfirstnews> >  > To subscribe, go to:C > <http://readerschoice.inline.cpqcorp.net/rcusers/rs.asp?sub=NS33>   : .. which simply resulted in a "server not found" error :-(   Michael    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:55:46 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>, Subject: Re: announcing Customer First Times* Message-ID: <00A18709.58FA0A2A.7@decus.de>  ' "Michael Unger" <unger@decus.de> wrote:   8 > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote: > 	 > > [...]  > > C > > The newsletter is available at: www.hp.com/go/customerfirstnews , > > <http://www.hp.com/go/customerfirstnews> > >  > > To subscribe, go to:E > > <http://readerschoice.inline.cpqcorp.net/rcusers/rs.asp?sub=NS33>  > < > .. which simply resulted in a "server not found" error :-(     Follow-up to my own post ...  9 http://h18000.www1.hp.com/hps/news/customerfirst_reg.html   8 obviously works (found in the PDF newsletter on page 19)   Michael    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:08:55 +0100 5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk>  Subject: Re: copy/ftp , Message-ID: <3dfa6896$1@news.swissonline.ch>  > "Paddy O'Brien" <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message& news:3DF9A6C0.5000108@tg.nsw.gov.au... >  > G > Thanks for all responses from everyone.  My colleague has been trying J > copy/ftp, says it works, but takes aeons.  I think it was Chris who saidG > something in another thread similar to the fact that a 100Mb link via @ > DECnet required a 1Gb link via IP to get the same performance. >  > Regards, Paddy >   D No, I was comparing Sun Cluster private interconnects with VMS's :-)  D All our DECnet traffic is tunneled via TCP/IP and we get pretty good+ performance without using gigabit ethernet.   L Give DECnet Phase V another chance. I dreaded taking that step from Phase IVK but it was surprisingly easy - just use NET$CONFIGURE.COM with the ADVANCED J parameter, tell it you want to tunnel using TCP/IP, select DOMAIN,LOCAL ifI you wish for your naming services so you're using DNS and enable the PWIP : driver using TCPIP$CONFIG.COM. And that's more or less it.   - Chris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:58:54 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>2 Subject: Re: DEC C and DEC CXX licenses (on a VAX)6 Message-ID: <atfdfb$13hlcl$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  3 "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> schreef in bericht & news:3dfa2bbe_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... > / > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message 2 > news:atcu36$12j1d4$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de...I > | One of my systems has a C license loaded. Does that license cover the  C++ 5 > | (CXX) compiler as well or is that a separate PAK?  > | L >     C and C++ are different products.  You'll need a separate PAK for C++. >  OK, no C++ experiments then :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Dec 2002 07:17:17 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 2 Subject: Re: DEC C and DEC CXX licenses (on a VAX)3 Message-ID: <cEzfUUmpFr61@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <atfdfb$13hlcl$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:  > 5 > "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> schreef in bericht ( > news:3dfa2bbe_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... >>0 >> "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message3 >> news:atcu36$12j1d4$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de... J >> | One of my systems has a C license loaded. Does that license cover the > C++ 6 >> | (CXX) compiler as well or is that a separate PAK? >> |M >>     C and C++ are different products.  You'll need a separate PAK for C++.  >>! > OK, no C++ experiments then :-)   < If you were to use Compaq C++ you would find the online help< and the documentation are much inferior to Compaq C, even in0 those elements the two languages have in common.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 04:20:52 -0500 1 From: "Art George" <taffyfluffybears@hotmail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Determining a process' sub-process(es) 5 Message-ID: <X1FK9.20869$H67.94709@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   L Take a look at SYS$PROCESS_SCAN. It should have all the criteria you need toD determine what the sub-processes are. This system service works withI SYS$GETJPI to determine the information regarding a specific sub-process.    Art.  4 "Roose Chua" <roose_chua@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:127ddcff.0212132217.2d7ed689@posting.google.com... 	 > Hi all,  > < > Could someone be able to help me how I could determine theF > subprocesses of a certain process? We usually have some process thatH > interface with Oracle and on that process, creates a sub-process whichG > does the Oracle transactions. So, when we try to monitor the "mother" F > process, it would seem to be hanging, but in fact, it is waiting forF > it's subprocess to complete. What we usually do is to ask our Oracle? > DBA to determine through Oracle what is the process ID of the F > subprocess that was created, and then we are able to monitor it. AnyE > chance that I could get this through VMS alone and without going to D > Oracle itself just to see the subprocess? We have an Alpha cluster* > running on OpenVMS 7.2 and Oracle 8.x.x. > 	 > Thanks,  > Roose    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:09:11 GMT 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> 3 Subject: Re: Determining a process' sub-process(es) 1 Message-ID: <3DFB47EA.4B02515@firstdbasource.com>    Art George wrote:  > N > Take a look at SYS$PROCESS_SCAN. It should have all the criteria you need toF > determine what the sub-processes are. This system service works withK > SYS$GETJPI to determine the information regarding a specific sub-process.  >  > Art. > 6 > "Roose Chua" <roose_chua@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:127ddcff.0212132217.2d7ed689@posting.google.com...  > > Hi all,  > > > > > Could someone be able to help me how I could determine theH > > subprocesses of a certain process? We usually have some process thatJ > > interface with Oracle and on that process, creates a sub-process whichI > > does the Oracle transactions. So, when we try to monitor the "mother" H > > process, it would seem to be hanging, but in fact, it is waiting forH > > it's subprocess to complete. What we usually do is to ask our OracleA > > DBA to determine through Oracle what is the process ID of the H > > subprocess that was created, and then we are able to monitor it. AnyG > > chance that I could get this through VMS alone and without going to F > > Oracle itself just to see the subprocess? We have an Alpha cluster, > > running on OpenVMS 7.2 and Oracle 8.x.x. > >  > > Thanks, 	 > > Roose   H That is if you want to do it progamatically.  In DCL it is fairly simple   help show process /subprocess      $ spawn/nowait @loop) %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process MAUSTIN_1 spawned  $ 	 $ sh proc   G 14-DEC-2002 09:06:15.82   User: MAUSTIN          Process ID:   00001239 H                           Node: ALPHA1           Process name: "_TNA17:"  8 Terminal:           TNA17:  (Host: <removed> Port: 1658)# User Identifier:    [USERS,MAUSTIN]  Base priority:      4 - Default file spec:  SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$SMTP]  Number of Kthreads: 1    Devices allocated:  TNA17: $ sh proc/id=<pid>/subproc  G 14-DEC-2002 09:06:19.52   User: MAUSTIN          Process ID:   00001239 H                           Node: ALPHA1           Process name: "_TNA17:"" There are 2 processes in this job:
   _TNA17: (*) 
     MAUSTIN_1  --   Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163 7 Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.com    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Dec 02 19:11:04 GMT, From: uhap023@alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk (Tom Crane)E Subject: FORTRAN90, CXML library, IEEE float & DENORM_RESULTS problem + Message-ID: <oC53T+QRDEWy@mail.rhbnc.ac.uk>   	 Dear All, A 	I have the following problem. I would like to use the CXML maths N library under Alpha/VMS FORTRAN90 with IEEE floating point arithmetic and withO the /IEEE_MODE=DENORM_RESULTS compiler qualifier applied to whole executable -- L ie. especially the BLAS & LAPACK routines in the CXML library. The CXML docsL don't say, but I surmise that CXML$IMAGELIB_TS was compiled with the defaultF /IEEE_MODE=FAST. I'd like my code to generate IEEE NaN etc. within theK BLAS/LAPACK routines and continue executing, when floating point exceptions J would otherwise terminate the program. This is the default behaviour under& g77/i386/Linux which does what I want.  J Do/Can Compaq/HP supply a CXML version compiled with DENORM_RESULTS? Is isN possible to get hold of the optimised CXML source code? -- at least the BLAS &I LAPACK components of CXML are open source. I'd rather not have to build a ( private copy from scratch using Atlas...  N On a related issue, It is possible to statically link against the IEEE versionO of CXML? The reason I'm interested, is to build an executable on a cluster node K which has the compiler and CXML libraries but execute them on a faster node E lacking them? Currently I'm compiling with /FLOAT=G_FLOAT and linking G statically against CMXL$FGS.OLB to do this, which appears to work OK...    Many thanks 	 Tom Crane   & Posted and CCed to cxml @ compaq . com --  K Tom Crane, Dept. Physics, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham Hill, " Egham, Surrey, TW20 0EX, England.  Email:	uhap023@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk SPAN:   19.875 Fax:    +44 (0) 1784 472794    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:23:45 GMT , From: matt@drumheights.removethis.com (Matt)* Subject: How do you invalidate a dumpfile./ Message-ID: <3dfb5aa4.3412887@news.demon.co.uk>    Hi,   E Is there any way to invaidate a dump file, so that VMS thinks it does  not contain a vaild dump?    Many thanks in advance.    	Matt    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:37:06 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: HP and DirecTV ' Message-ID: <3DFA44F2.F4BB3B55@vcu.edu>    Michael Austin wrote:  >  > Jim Agnew wrote: > > ; > > man... and how long does it take to back all that up???  > >  > > Michael Austin wrote:  > > >  > > > John McLean wrote: > > > >   > > > <irrelevant stuff snipped> > > > G > > > > HP is a longtime IT partner with DIRECTV, hosting the satellite J > > > > television service provider's billing computing infrastructure forO > > > > nearly 10 years. Last year, HP installed a 114-terabyte HP StorageWorks M > > > > storage area network (SAN) to support DIRECTV's billing applications, O > > > > one of the largest VMS SANs ever deployed for corporate use anywhere in  > > > > the world  > > > >  > > > > ... (continues)  > > > M > > > Hmmmm.. the company I work for will exceed 114TB with our next purchase N > > > -- soon.  We just surpassed 100TB when we installed 2 more T5's.  All itJ > > > takes is  < five "T5" StorageWorks configurations using 72GB drives. > > > K > > > A T5 config consist of 2 cabinets with 12 shelves each with 14 drives K > > > per shelf (336 drives total*72 = 24TB) and 4 HSG80's.   And just wait 9 > > > until the 144GB drives come out early next year....  > > >  > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > < > > > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984 >  > a while... :)  > --
 > Regards, > 8 > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984  ) and how, i'll bet...  have a good weekend    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:24:50 -0600 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>  Subject: Re: HP and DirecTV G Message-ID: <craigberry-A26598.11245014122002@news.directvinternet.com>   5 In article <3DF8D463.512E818E@swissonline.delete.ch>, 3  John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote:   @ > HP and DIRECTV Sign Managed Services and Technology Agreement;J > State-of-the-Art Customer Billing Environment to Support DIRECTV Growth   H Which may not be as good news as it sounds since DirecTV is planning to = shrink its business, or at least get out of the DSL business:   % <http://www.directvdsl.com/press.htm>    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Dec 2002 05:23:01 -0800# From: hemanir@netzero.com (Anamika) * Subject: Re: Internals and Data Structures< Message-ID: <180adbe.0212140523.169a502a@posting.google.com>  E Honestly, I wonder Digital Press is making any profit from publishing D these books. They might as well publish these on-line as part of theF regular documentation. Not to belittle the author's work, but what are6 the sales figures for VMS and related stuff nowadays ?   -A  g "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message news:<atcohg$rh9$1@web1.cup.hp.com>...  > Dear Newsgroup,  > G > My apologies if I already told you this, but I just can not remember. L > Anyway, are you aware that there is a new OpenVMS Alpha Internals and DataI > Structures (Memory Management) book by Ruth Goldenberg.  At the OpenVMS J > Symposium we got the first copies off the presses and along with OpenVMSL > with Apache, OSU and WASD by Alan Winston, we gave a copy to each attendeeD > (until we ran out). The publisher is Digital Press, ISBN number is > 1-55558-159-5  >  > Warm Regards,  > Sue    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Dec 2002 07:15:04 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) * Subject: Re: Internals and Data Structures3 Message-ID: <2AVXfrpaLaeI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <180adbe.0212140523.169a502a@posting.google.com>, hemanir@netzero.com (Anamika) writes:G > Honestly, I wonder Digital Press is making any profit from publishing F > these books. They might as well publish these on-line as part of theH > regular documentation. Not to belittle the author's work, but what are8 > the sales figures for VMS and related stuff nowadays ?  ? Please !  They are already making them paperback.  We need more > "real books" not fewer.   B-H (owners of Digital Press) have a? reservoir of VMS titles, and the IDSM is one for which they can ? count on some number of sales from existing owners of the prior < edition.  Of course I tried to buy one at DECUS in St. Louis> but they were unwilling to sell it without collecting personal= information.  A month later I got one at the VMS Symposium as @ part of registration without giving personal information to B-H.E So they may be good at editing and publishing, but they lack somewhat E in understanding their target market.  I can assume they got paid for A the copy I got as part of my VMS Symposium registration, but they B could have sold me one earlier at the DECUS Symposium, and I would6 have two copies and they would have twice the revenue.  E The first couple IDSMs were paperback, originating with a DEC course. H I had mine custom-bound, and at least the next version came in hardback.H They are back to paperback, but I have given up having them custom boundH since they no longer release the whole set at once and there is a lot ofF churn of these books for Alpha (good, because it reflects churn in the  operating system kernel itself).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:43:53 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Login lexical? , Message-ID: <3DFA4689.7000205@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Heyes wrote:  J > Can someone suggest a lexical which will tell me how any times a user isL > logged on, so that in their login.com I can test for this and reject theirL > logon if they have, say, more than 5 connections? Or suggest a good way of
 > doing this?     9 Well, the batch jobs may be an issue, but from AUTHORIZE:       /MAXACCTJOBS             /MAXACCTJOBS=value   F       Specifies the maximum number of batch, interactive, and detachedC       processes that can be active at one time for all users of the @       same account. By default, a user has a maximum of 0, which%       represents an unlimited number.        MODIFY Subtopic? /maxjob   MODIFY      /MAXJOBS             /MAXJOBS=value   D       Specifies the maximum number of processes (interactive, batch,A       detached, and network) with the cited user name that can be @       active simultaneously. The first four network jobs are notA       counted. By default, a user has a maximum value of 0, which %       represents an unlimited number.   J Seems like VMS may have some or all of your solution.  However, if you're A concerned solely with interactive jobs, then this won't help you.     O I don't know, (didn't look), of a lexical function that will give you what you  O want to know directly.  You would have to scan the process table, selecting by  P username, and process type, and count the current number, including the current M process, since you're a process by the time you get to the LOGIN.COM.  Not a  O tough thing to do.  Could probably do it in DCL.  Myself, I'd perfer a program.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:59:39 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>L Subject: Migration minute of the day:  Pascal VAX/VMS 5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS 8.2& Message-ID: <3DFB7F9B.2070409@Free.fr>   The question is:  O Is it obvious to consider recompiling/linking in two years or so a few million  O lines of Pascal VAX/VMS 5.5-2H4 on an Itanium Server running OpenVMS 8.2? (the  + Pascal compiler is in the roadmap for 8.2).   G Or is it safer to consider upgrading the VAX from 5.5-2H4 to 8.2 first?   / I know, I have time, but the Customer does not.    Thanks.    D. --  4    -------------------------------------------------3 MORANDI Consultants - http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr 1    19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France. 3 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax : +33 (0)5 6154 1928 3 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans. 3 --------------------------------------------------- 3 Anti-publicit : enlever ".nospam" pour me rpondre    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:31:18 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>: Subject: Re: misc HW maintenance end of life dates, where?* Message-ID: <00A18705.ED8A2658.9@decus.de>  7 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote:    > VAXVMS wrote:  > >  > > Didier:  > > - > > I can't find a page with a chart, either.  > > & > > One the FEs I deal with says that: >  > FE?    Field Engineer ?   Just a guess of course ...   Michael    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:16:39 GMT 0 From: HARANGOZO CSABA   <spameater@spam.invalid>K Subject: Re: Newbie:Openvms 7.2-1 on Alpha - Telent not cleaning up sockets 3 Message-ID: <rqEK9.42$N5.3747@nasal.pacific.net.au>   2 Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote: > HARANGOZO CSABA wrote: >>  5 >> Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:  >> [...snip...]  >>  6 >>         Hmm... "at First DBA Souce, Inc "       :-) >>  3 >>         You must have a saucy job, Michael...:-)  >>  B >>                                                 Cheers,   Csaba >>  L >>    ----------------------------------------------------------------------L >>    *   Csaba I. Harangozo       |   csabah(at)zipworld(dot)com(dot)au   *L >>    ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >>    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:  G > you must have had a wee to much of the sauce :)  as the name is First  > DBA SouRce.   : 	I know it is, Michael. But have you looked at your posts'9 	headings lately :-) ? I quoted that. All your posts come 7 	with the spelling I quoted... for a long time I guess. < 	Do you have an "ORGANISATION" string defined somewhere ( if< 	you use some U*ix ) ? Or if you use some other software, it< 	might have a similar environmental symbol defined, with the 	wrong spelling... 					Cheers,  Csaba   6 	P.S. Am I the only reader ( using TIN ) seeing this ?  J  -------------------------------------------------------------------------H   CSABA I. HARANGOZO  |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|  csabah(at)zipworld(dot)com(dot)auJ  -------------------------------------------------------------------------;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Dec 2002 14:18:02 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?6 Message-ID: <atfeiq$12v389$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  ' In article <3DFAAE62.781557A7@fsi.net>, 4 	"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > G >                                                  . I REFUSE to accept * > the death of VMS due to sheer stupidity. >   I I don't believe it is your choice to make.  If that is the wished of it's G owners, all we can do is sit around and watch and eventually attend the  wake.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 14 Dec 2002 15:46:06 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?6 Message-ID: <atfjnu$13lnoo$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  - In article <T_AK9.347688$QZ.51138@sccrnsc02>, - 	"Mark E. Levy" <levy@sysman-inc.com> writes:  > M > David, I keep trying to tell you but you won't listen. You don't understand  > the underlying hardware.    G I' am hardly an expert on PC hardware (I don't particularly like it and H really wish the 68K family had one the original position as the heart of> the IBM PC.) but I have a problem with some of these comments.   > M > 1. Bank-switched memory, and no real memory management. Let's not even talk ) > about that memory hole between 640K-1M.   H Let's.  To the best of my knowledge, the hole was deliberately put thereJ when memory first went above 640K in order to be backwards compatable withJ device that mapped their own on board memory right after the original 640KJ PC address space (like the VideoBlaster!)  I am almost certain that all orI at least most modern boxes that even support that option have the ability  to turn it off.   N > 2. Polled interrupt structure vs. VAX/Alpha vectored interrupts (this is oneM > reason why VMS can recognize new devices on-the-fly and NT needs to go thru  > "add new hardware" bullshit)  J Can't say how much of a problem the difference in interupt structure wouldL be, but blaming it for the shortcomings of NT isn't the answer.  Under LinuxE (and probably the BSD's as well) new devices can be found on the fly.   J > 3. Lack of processor modes (Kernel, Exec, Super & User). This is vitallyK > important to VMS' security. This is the single most difficult obstacle to  > overcome.   H Except that the fact that the VAX can be successfully emulated (with allH it's modes) and run VMS means at worst you would have needed to add someG level of hardware abstraction between VMS and the real hardware, but it K should have been doable.  Or are you saying that all these business running C VMS on CHARON emulators commercially are all hackable VMS systems??    > J > Please, stop whining about why VMS Engineering or management won't do an, > IA32 port and open your eyes to the facts.  B While I agree with the fact that it is likely way too late for theA practical consideration of an IA32 port, I disagree with the idea C that it was ever impossible for engineering reasons.  Management is  another story.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:39:13 GMT * From: "Mark E. Levy" <levy@sysman-inc.com>6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?/ Message-ID: <R8JK9.352500$WL3.108672@rwcrnsc54>   5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 0 news:atfjnu$13lnoo$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...  J > Except that the fact that the VAX can be successfully emulated (with allJ > it's modes) and run VMS means at worst you would have needed to add someI > level of hardware abstraction between VMS and the real hardware, but it E > should have been doable.  Or are you saying that all these business  running E > VMS on CHARON emulators commercially are all hackable VMS systems??   L Emulation is certainly an option, but the performance isn't exactly stellar.I VMS won't be hackable, but the underlying OS will be, and if you can gain 5 access to it, you can compromise the VMS environment.   K Those clamoring for VMS on IA32 don't want emulation, however. They want it & native. That's a very different story.  H Actually, another shortcoming of the PC Architecture occurred to me: theJ BIOS. I haven't looked into it, but I suppose it would be possible, with aH BIOS change, to make IA32 a more hospitable environment for VMS. Oh, butH oops, now it's not a commodity motherboard anymore. Also, who's going toE write a VMS replacement BIOS for all of those motherboards out there? E Nobody. Perhaps HP will write one for it's own, but now we're back to  proprietery hardware.    ML   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:30:44 GMT , From: matt@drumheights.removethis.com (Matt)6 Subject: Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aiming at VMS's jugular?/ Message-ID: <3dfb6a62.7442121@news.demon.co.uk>   1 On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:47:45 +1100, Paddy O'Brien $ <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote:   >  >  >Dale Hammer wrote:  >  >[snpis]M >> Sun used to be a proponent of the TPC-C ratings but not any more.  Most of  >> theM >> respected analysts (Gartner, Meta, etc) say to be a credible vendor in the  >> enterprise,C >> vendors need to post TPC-C ratings to allow customers to do some  >> comparisons.  > C >Owing to their history, etc., I did not think anyone here has any   >respect for Gartner. C Shame that does not go for the 'powers that be', they hang on every ) word gartner say.  Hence bye bye VMS.....    Matt >  >Regards, Paddy  >  >  >  > H >*********************************************************************** > D >"This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged? >and confidential information intended only for the use of the  C >addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of  D >this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseC >the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,  8 >distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited. > B >If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid B >immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the > >individual sender except where the sender expressly and with D >authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses? >virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses  >contained in any attachment.  > = >Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now % >firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  > H >*********************************************************************** >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:06:42 +1100 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> ( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3DFAF4A2.3060702@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Roy Omond wrote:D >> So, are you planning to be around to oversee the fixes, Roy ? :-) >  >  >  > Damned right I do. > 9 > I am to live *forever* (or at least I'll die trying :-)    Love it.   Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Dec 02 12:13:26 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS) Message-ID: <acr95oBWemd2@elias.decus.ch>s  S In article <uvkq80e7h0eb96@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:o0 > Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:4 > :> t1: 00000000, ctime(): Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 19694 > :> t2: 7FFFFFFF, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:07 20384 > :> t3: 80000000, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:08 20384 > :> t4: FFFFFFFF, ctime(): Sun Feb  7 01:28:15 2106 > D > : Evidently there *is* a need!  Looks to me like the time overflow8 > : has just been postponed by a "few" years until 2106. >  > 68 years is not a few years.  ; But for an insurance company, hospital, or anyone who dealsn< with lifespans or future projections, it is still too small.   --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland2   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:13:46 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>e( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS/ Message-ID: <uvkqdafc85s30b@corp.supernews.com>s  " Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote:F : Right... why settle for that when you can have whatever vms end date : is??? i forget, 38,000 A.D.??m  ; Because when you move _off_ VMS, all the date/time routines  need to be rewritten.e  2 VMS's routines, formats, etc are industry-uniqiue,  = Does even the most dyed-in-the-wool VMS supporter here REALLYc< think that VSM will be around in 2106, when the C RTL time()
 overflows?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:37:27 +0100y5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk>h( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS, Message-ID: <3dfa6f46$1@news.swissonline.ch>  - "Z" <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote in message-) news:uvkq80e7h0eb96@corp.supernews.com...e0 > Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:4 > :> t1: 00000000, ctime(): Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 19694 > :> t2: 7FFFFFFF, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:07 20384 > :> t3: 80000000, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:08 20384 > :> t4: FFFFFFFF, ctime(): Sun Feb  7 01:28:15 2106 >ID > : Evidently there *is* a need!  Looks to me like the time overflow8 > : has just been postponed by a "few" years until 2106. >l > 68 years is not a few years.  F ...by which time the first nuclear-annihilation tolerant intergalacticK cluster will be available to users of Microsoft VMS v13.1-2 and Sun will benD revealing their first extended campus cluster which utilises the new SunString interconnect.f   Sorry, a bit off-topic.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:10:56 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>s( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS/ Message-ID: <uvkq80e7h0eb96@corp.supernews.com>e  . Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:2 :> t1: 00000000, ctime(): Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 19692 :> t2: 7FFFFFFF, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:07 20382 :> t3: 80000000, ctime(): Mon Jan 18 22:14:08 20382 :> t4: FFFFFFFF, ctime(): Sun Feb  7 01:28:15 2106  B : Evidently there *is* a need!  Looks to me like the time overflow6 : has just been postponed by a "few" years until 2106.   68 years is not a few years.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:01:27 -00002! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>p( Subject: Re: Porting from Sun to OpenVMS/ Message-ID: <uvmlen7ev8ap8e@corp.supernews.com>   . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:U : In article <uvkqdafc85s30b@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:L% :> Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote:tI :> : Right... why settle for that when you can have whatever vms end dateA" :> : is??? i forget, 38,000 A.D.?? :> o> :> Because when you move _off_ VMS, all the date/time routines :> need to be rewritten. :> a5 :> VMS's routines, formats, etc are industry-uniqiue,g :> c@ :> Does even the most dyed-in-the-wool VMS supporter here REALLY? :> think that VSM will be around in 2106, when the C RTL time()s
 :> overflows?m  7 : I am convinced there will be C date problems in 2038.   : Not on any code being ported to VMS, which was the context of the thread.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:03:06 GMTu. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)X Subject: Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup - No thanks!0 Message-ID: <ervK9.825$TA6.10549@news.chello.at>  b In article <3df76de9$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:H >>A poll I've run for the last of couple months shows 91% of 150+ voters- >would like an openvms-managers-list started.  >.M >Back on Encompasserve, new forum mechanisms have been tried several times in H >order to provide a web-based discussion.  Each one has flopped because,L >while people say they want a different means of online discussion, it turns >out they don't really.u  H And I count it as, people which don't want such a list don't even bother to go there to vote NO   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialists E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Dec 02 09:49:09 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)e4 Subject: Re: Some idiot tried to terrorise me today.) Message-ID: <UUU0GvP3CQPE@elias.decus.ch>C   >> >>I >> Oh I don't know... a train was 3 minutes late the other day... pretty l$ >> *wild* behaviour for Switzerland. >  >  >  > *Scurrilous* ! > 5 > I don't believe you.  *3* minutes late ???  No way.a > 9 > Please post your source for this scandalous accusation.  > 8 It does sometimes happen. I distinctly remember that day3 in 1999 when one was 5 minutes late. I kid you not, ( I simply thought my watch must be wrong.   :-)a   --  
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:53:20 -0500e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>4 Subject: Re: Some idiot tried to terrorise me today./ Message-ID: <3DFB7E1F.5A8B8F1C@vl.videotron.ca>e   John Santos wrote:C > route to the airport (LAX), and they told me, among other things,gH > "Don't signal when you want to change lanes.  People will deliberatelyD > cut you off."  I laughed a little, thinking they were exagerating.  J In australia, folks had warned me about Queensland drivers. I hadn't takenM them seriously because what they were telling me was had to believe. But onceaA in Queensland, I found there was unfortunatly some truth to it...m  M Many, when they see a cyclist going in the opposite direction on a rural road L will just speed up heading straight for the cyclist on the opposite lane, asK if they wanted to kill him, hoping to scare the cyclist out of his wits andsM into the scenery to avoid the oncoming car. And they will get close enough to J you that you do see the expression in their faces before they realise I amJ taking their bluff and they veer back into their own lane. Everytyime thisL happened to me, it was with young drivers trying to impress their friends in the car.  H This, of course, is not so bad  because the driver has plenty of room toN re-intregrate his lane since there is no other traffic. But in Ontario Canada,N drivers on the Ontario portion of the Trans Canada highway (just a 2 lane roadI without shoulder in much of ontario), an oncoming cyclist doesn't preventsM those drivers from overtaking other vehicles. And of course, because they aresL overtaking other vehicles, they have no room to re-integrate their lane whenJ they realise it is a *very* tight squeeze with a loaded cyclist.  Had a 18N wheel truck do that to me trying to overtake 2 motorhomes. Thing about onatrioM drivers is that they are "so safe" that if you don't go the speed limit (like J if you go 99km/h instead of 100, they will overtake you, but when they do,J they doN't exceed the speed limit and overtake you at 100km/h, which meansN that they stay on the opposing traffic lane much longer. Also, Ontario driversN are so "safe" that they panic when something out of the ordinary happens (suchK as a cyclist) since everyoen is so law abiding. In contrast, when somethingaK happens that is out of ordinary in Qubec, drivers don't panic because theymB are used to dealing with all sorts of stuff happening on the road.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:36:56 -0000r! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>o. Subject: Re: sys$wake returns after long delay/ Message-ID: <uvkroolq8if3e5@corp.supernews.com>   ' J McQueen <john.mcqueen@gnf.com> wrote:uD : I have two Alpha programs in the same group, one queuing msgs whenG : they come in and then waking up a second sys$hiber program to processaF : the msgs.  I have put time stamps on either side of the sys$wake andG : sys$hiber calls and see that the sys$wake process is called while the,D : second process is hibernating but it takes several minutes for theF : hibernating process to be awakened.  When it awakes, I get identicalH : timestamps from both programs which indicates that the calling program2 : waits that long for the sys$wake call to return.    . : What could be the reason for this long wait?  : How long is the wait?  1 second?  10 secobds?  10 minutes?   How busy is the system?.  * What's the priorioty of the two processes?    What's the status code returned?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:12:58 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG; Subject: Re: Using the $AUDIT_EVENT System Service (from C)r0 Message-ID: <00A18642.9580CE97@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <xTcs7S9XLZIF@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:eV >In article <00A1863A.65A58208@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:f >> In article <ohKEFq3YGOhl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:w >>>In article <i7pK9.344331$%m4.113512@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, Gib Copeland <copeland@jenni.path.uiowa.edu> writes:d >>>> Mark Itzcovitz wrote: >>> C >>>>> #define init_ile32(ile, length, code, bufaddr, retlen_addr) \i >>>>> {               \c+ >>>>>  (ile)->ile3$w_code = (code);       \e. >>>>>  (ile)->ile3$w_length = (length);      \1 >>>>>  (ile)->ile3$ps_bufaddr = (bufaddr);      \n7 >>>>>  (ile)->ile3$ps_retlen_addr = (retlen_addr);    \  >>>>> }t >>>aJ >>> init_ile32(&item_list[0], NSA$_ALARM_NAME, strlen(security_string),    >>>security_string, 0);    >>>  >>>> Try this: >>>> a@ >>>> #define init_ile32(ile, code, length, bufaddr, retlen_addr) >>>eD >>>If that solves the problem, then consider switching to a languageC >>>that supports keyword parameters, either directly or via macros.V8 >>>Examples that come to mind are Bliss, Pascal and Ada. >> t >> ...and Macro. > J >So it would seem the original poster chose exactly the wrong language :-)  H I'm certainly no fan of his chosen lingo and having grown up in rural PAH I was no fan of a freshly manured field.  In either case, one learns to  live with the stench. ;)   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             :5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" T   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:21:28 -0000 8 From: "Leigh Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> Subject: VAX 7810's./ Message-ID: <atdisq$git$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>   - Some suggestions would be useful on this one.   L Three machines A, B, C are all VAX 7810's fully ECO'd VMS 7.1 and DECnet/OSI 7.1 ECO 5. 256MB memory etc.  2 A and B are live machines and C is a test machine.  I A and B have three ethernet port, two FDDI and one X25 in each one. C hase one FDDI and one ethernet.  L A and C are in building X and B is in building Y about ten miles away. A andH C are connected by one of the FDDI lines with routing provided by Cisco.L This is dedicated to one application and nothing else. All the ethernets and: other FDDI are heavily used i.e. they cannot be taken out.  L The DECnet copies between A and B are awful and can only do 2-3MB/minute. If3 C is put in place of A this becomes 60-70MB/minute.n  K If cards are moved from A to C the performance drops back to 2-3MB/minute..t  H Is there a performance issue with the old VAXes and the XMI bus which isL what I believe is used in the 7810? I saw some "Congestion Discards" on someL of the NCL output for this FDDI line and wasn't present on any of the others but this was not a great deal. -- Leigh G. Bowden.# http://www.bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.ukt! LGBowden#bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk  +44 161 477 2526   Opinions are mine alone.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 05:14:17 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t Subject: RE: VAX SCAN PAK 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEOBGDAA.tom@kednos.com>   C The license paks are in LCDO.DAT.  Odd thing is that there are paksf< for both VAX and Alpha.  Maybe you need the Alpha pak if you VEST it?   >-----Original Message-----r. >From: David M Smith [mailto:dsmit115@csc.com]) >Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:09 AMc >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: VAX SCAN PAK >  >t= >On 13 Dec 2002 08:30:14 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry L >Kilgallen) wrote: >cG >>But I have a friend who is looking for the VAX SCAN PAK that was madeyE >>freely available after VAX SCAN was decommissioned.  I suggested itoE >>must be on the Freeware discs, but my friend said there was no filel2 >>with PAK in the name in the VAXSCAN directories. >>E >>Can anybody tell me how to find the freely available VAX SCAN PAK ?- >-C >VAXSCAN is on the Freeware V4.0 CD on disk 2, according to info att >u< >	http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/vaxscan/ >dB >I don't have that CD mounted anywhere (nor can I easily mount it  >without drivingC >to another site), and I don't spot an obvious file to contain the   >PAK, but it isa+ >presumably "inside" one of the .ZIP files.-J >-------------------------------------------------------------------------J >David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comJ >Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)J >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.:; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). B >Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 >  ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002n   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Dec 2002 07:07:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r Subject: RE: VAX SCAN PAK 3 Message-ID: <2U4E1ktq26oE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEOBGDAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: E > The license paks are in LCDO.DAT.  Odd thing is that there are paksa> > for both VAX and Alpha.  Maybe you need the Alpha pak if you
 > VEST it?  D Certainly you would, although I wonder why they didn't just make oneE concurrent use license for an unlimited number of users -- those work  on both Alpha and VAX.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.690 ************************> > > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984 >  > a while... :)  > --
 > Regards, > 8 > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984  ) and how, i'll bet...  have a good weΪ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    Ϊ    