1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 25 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 711       Contents:1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... 1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...  ***  MERRY  VAXMAS !  *** 2 Re: Compaq's phenomonal stupidity in killing Alpha2 Re: Compaq's phenomonal stupidity in killing Alpha' Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement ' Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement ' Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement  FA: Digital Laptop Bag Holiday Greetings  Re: HP and DirecTV is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: Link errors." Re: lock manager and blocking asts" Merry Christmas to all VMS'ers ...& Re: Merry Christmas to all VMS'ers ... Re: Murphy's law at its best Re: OpenVMS Branding Query Re: OpenVMS Branding QueryB Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup Re: SCSI controller question5 Star date, Smithsonian date, and VMS datetime formats   Re: Suggestions for Removing LAT Re: UTC time in DCL  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth 	 VMS ISPs?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:49:55 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...' Message-ID: <3E08D683.5B6EAE56@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:C > > Be aware that in some contexts, "beat off" is an American slang E > > euphemism for "masturbate", in which case I suppose that might be + > > effective to some degree in some cases.  > P > A poof (gay) jumps on your back. Do you let him do it or do you pull him off ?  > "pull him off"? I suppose one could take badly, as well... ;-)  I > > Well, pornographic spam seems to be effective (otherwise why it be so  > > prevalent?). > O > The big question is what happens when you take that magic pill twice. Does it J > grow by 6" ? Does it continue to grow if you continue to take the pill ?   <music>  One pill makes you larger  and one pill makes you small, " and the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all.  Go ask Alice...  </music>   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:51:33 +0100 5 From: "Chris Clifford" <chris.clifford@openvms.co.uk> : Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ..., Message-ID: <3e090f26$1@news.swissonline.ch>  1 "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message * news:01C2AA6C.EA1D64E0@sulfer.icius.com...% > WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT, CLIFF!!!!!!!!!  > J > This would be a major disaster. VMS has won our loyalty through its highI > quality. Can you imagine what it would be like three years after MS got  > their hands on it?  ! Yes, I can - it would be growing.   ( A much greater disaster would be no VMS.   - Chris.   (P.S. Merry Xmas!)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 05:20:11 GMT 0 From: HARANGOZO CSABA   <spameater@spam.invalid>" Subject: ***  MERRY  VAXMAS !  ***4 Message-ID: <febO9.84$3q3.5134@nasal.pacific.net.au>  7 	I wish everyone a Merry VAXmas and an Alpha New Year !    							Cheers,  Csaba   J  -------------------------------------------------------------------------H   CSABA I. HARANGOZO  |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|  csabah(at)zipworld(dot)com(dot)auJ  -------------------------------------------------------------------------;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:49:18 GMT ' From: Steve Thompson <smt@vgersoft.com> ; Subject: Re: Compaq's phenomonal stupidity in killing Alpha H Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0212241747590.12900-100000@vger.vgersoft.com>  ( On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Mark E. Levy wrote:  E > I just upgraded one of my PCs running W2K to a 2.4GHz Athlon. I run I > Seti@Home on it. It took 11 hours to get to the 80% completed point. My M > 533Mhz EV56 Alpha churns through a work unit in slightly less than 10 hours J > (per CPU). Interesting the AMD's clock rate is ~5 times higher, yet it's> > slower. Compaq's stupidity in killing the Alpha astounds me.  J I just ran three Seti@Home work units on a 1.67 GHz Athlon MP system under: Redhat 7.3. It took 10.5 CPU hours for all three together.   Steve    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:14:20 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) ; Subject: Re: Compaq's phenomonal stupidity in killing Alpha & Message-ID: <H7nqFw.GIr@world.std.com>  0 In article <atuqam$puc$1@newsreader1.netway.at>,# Peter Flunger <p-i-b@gmx.at> wrote: , > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote  < > > I wish you had a sun sparky box to run also so you could) > > prove Andrew the idiot that he is ...  > H > Maybe there is somebody out there with a SUN running SETI ?  We do notH > have any, and as long as it is my saying, we will never have.  Some ofG > our customers are running SUNs as well, and they are not impressed by * > what they get in comparison to an Alpha.  I Well... FWIW, I ran the latest Seti@Home (3.0.3) 64-bit Solaris client on J an Ultra 10 system of mine.  This particular box has an old UltraSparc-IIiH processor, running at 333MHz.  It's a single processor system.  I boughtG the box used in late 2000, and I think this config of Ultra 10 would've G been actively sold by Sun sometime in 1999 (or late 1998?).  Anyway, it : completed the work unit in a fairly respectable 17.42 hrs.  C At work, I've a more contemporary SunFire V880 deskside server with H UltraSparc-III processors running at 900MHz.  Given that those procs areE clocked a lot faster, and that they're a newer generation processor,  B I'm going to guess that it'll easily beat 6 hrs per work unit, andD possibly 5 hrs per work unit.  I'll post my results following a run.  J Personally, I like my home VAXen best, but then there aren't any Seti@Home clients for them under any OS.   -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----->       IBM 1130 Club Motto:  "Computer People Are Happy People"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:50:25 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement' Message-ID: <3E07E791.9B6F1009@fsi.net>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > b > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E068939.25BCE6E7@fsi.net>... > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > >  > > > Z wrote:B > > > > It fails big time because F$GETDVI causes an error instead > > > > of returning "FALSE."  > > > G > > > But why does F$GETDVI cause an error instead of returning false ?  > > J > > Because you're confusing "exists" with "available". A device can existH > > but not be available - see HELP SET DEVICE /AVAILABLE. A device thatK > > does not exist cannot be examined to see whether or not it's available.  > G > Ah, but if you can't find it, it's certainly not available. It's also F > not mounted. Now to determine whether it's a file-oriented device or' > not, for that you have to examine it.   C So, we're making brash assumptions about non-existant DCBs, are we?   B > IOW: If it were available, you could examine it. Since you can'tG > examine it, it isn't available. (!) (We are allowed to put logic into  > lexical functions.)   = They have logic - the same as the underlying system services.   G > Even better is MNT, mounted. Is the device mounted? Well, we can list H > all the mounted devices. If the one in question isn't listed, it isn't > mounted, now is it?   F Actually, you can list out all the known devices and determine whetherB or not they are MOUNTed: SHOW DEVICE for all known devices or SHOW4 DEVICE/MOUNTED for known devices which are MOUNTed.   
 Note that:  * $ PIPE SHOW DEVICE | SEAR SYS$PIPE MOUNTED  F ...will not display shadow-set members, which are MOUNTed, but displayH as shadow-set members - the word "Mounted" does not appear in the statusD column or any place else on the line or any relevant lines displayed
 sunsequently.   C You can also loop through all the known devices with F$DEVICE() and . examine their characteristics with F$GETDVI().  @ ...but you still want F$GETDVI() to make brash assumptions about non-existant DCBs.  H > You can lock a sock in a safe to which you don't know the combination.D > Is the sock available? NO! But you can't examine the sock. But you > know it's unavailable. > F > Now, please. We're *really* getting too deep into semantics here. ItH > seems to me that DEC simply chose a simple way to do this: If a deviceH > doesn't exist, other F$GETDVI functions for that device will return anG > error. It's a choice the VMS engineers made. And this choice provides F > more information from the F$GETDVI call. You can get true, false, or= > an error. If you get an error, you know something is wrong.   C Yes, that's true. If you try to examine a non-existant device, yes,  something is wrong with that.    > If you get? > true or false, you know the requested status of the device in  > question.  > < > > Remember: a device must exist before you can examine its > > characteristics. > ; > Yeah, but availability is a status, not a characteristic.   G Stati constitute characteristics. (...and if you're going to argue that H point, consider that you may have a bit too much free time - what's ging, undone that better deserves your attention?)  F > Also, suppose you utilize F$GETDVI("DKA983","EXISTS") and the device > doesn't exist.  D ...in which case, the lexical function returns "FALSE"; documented / expected behavior...  0 > How can you then examine it to determine if it1 > exists?!!! You can't! Because it doesn't exist!   8 ...and therefore has no entry in the list of known DCBs.   > So this lexical F > function should either return TRUE, or an error about not being ableB > to examine the device to determine whether it exists because the: > lexical function can't find it because it doesn't exist.  = Capt. Kirk:	Norman, everything Harry Mudd tells you is a lie.   1 Harry Mudd:	Now listen to me, Norman: I am lying.    > [snip]D > Correct, except for cases like F$GETDVI("NODEX::DKA200:","EXISTS") > which returns a warning.  C You can't us ethis to examine devices on another node. Documented /  expected behavior.  T > > > I guess I can understand the issyue of what do yo return when someone requestsT > > > the number of free blocks on a device that is not known.  But shouldn't one be4 > > > able to test for AVL and get a true or false ? > > , > > Is your personal kramblefratz available? > E > No. If it were, I could produce it. Since I can't produce it, it is D > not available. And I already know I don't have one. Similarly, theF > system knows it doesn't have the nonexistent device, and so can justG > as easily determine it to be unavailable. Logic is not forbidden from  > Lexical Function programs.  > Logic is present, just not the logic you would seem to prefer.  B > > How can you know that until you know whether or not you have a > > kramblefratz?  > G > Well, F$GETDVI could have been designed to check for existence if the G > device is not found, report it as unavailable. But it wasn't designed  > that way.   H True. It does not make brash assumptions. Rather than lying to you aboutF a not existant device, you are informed that the device indicated does? not exist. Availability is irrelevant for non-existant devices.   H A device can exist but not be available. See HELP SET DEVICE /[NO]AVAIL., being unavailable does not verify existence.  ( Can a device be available but not exist?   > > Quibbledunk? Same issue. > > 9 > > ...or would also expect SHOW DEVICE QBP0: to display:  > >  > > $ SHOW DEVICE QBP0:/FULL > > D > > Unknown device nodename$QBP0:, device type unknown, offline, not5 > > mounted, not shareable, not available to cluster,  > F > Excellent!!! This is truly an excellent argument in favor of the theG > choice the VMS engineers made. *I*, for one, certainly would not want E > to see such a message for a non-existent device. Good work. This is  > the best part of your post.  > K > > How can you examine a DCB that not exist? How can a non-existant device  > > have a DCB?  > G > You can't, but you can use reason, logic, what have you, to determine ! > some things as explained above.   . You are arguing in favor of brash assumptions.  + > NTL, the choice DEC made is okay with me.    So glad you approve.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Dec 2002 20:14:29 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)0 Subject: Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0212242014.4ce886d@posting.google.com>  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E08AAE5.216284D5@fsi.net>... > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > d > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E07E791.9B6F1009@fsi.net>... [...] G > > NOW, if you choose the first school, your only choices are true and G > > false. So, if a device doesn't exist, certainly you can't call that H > > true. Therefore, it must be false. Therefore, this first school saysJ > > that something that doesn't exist certainly isn't available because ifG > > it were available, it must exist! There's nothing brash about that.  > J > Yes, there is. That a device is not available does not guarantee that itE > does not exist. So, using availability as an existence criterion is 
 > invalid.  A I never said to use availability as an existence criterion. I was B saying that non-existence implies unavailability. I was not saying? that unavailability implies that the device doesn't exist. Stop  putting words in my mouth.  	 > > [...]  > > > Note that: > > > 0 > > > $ PIPE SHOW DEVICE | SEAR SYS$PIPE MOUNTED > > > L > > > ...will not display shadow-set members, which are MOUNTed, but displayN > > > as shadow-set members - the word "Mounted" does not appear in the statusJ > > > column or any place else on the line or any relevant lines displayed > > > sunsequently.  > > F > > Ah! But I didn't say *how* to list them. You could write a programG > > using DCL lexical functions and temporary files to list all mounted - > > devices. You're making brash assumptions!  > J > Negatroid. I listed two of the possible ways to make that determination.I > Another would be a "compiled" program using system services directly to A > identify the known devices and determine their characteristics.   F Oh, please. You tell how a single, particular method fails to show allE mounted devices, assuming that I mentioned that method when in fact I  did no such thing.   [...] B > > > > > Remember: a device must exist before you can examine its > > > > > characteristics. > > > > A > > > > Yeah, but availability is a status, not a characteristic.  > > > ' > > > Stati constitute characteristics. 	 > > [...]  > > I > > Perhaps. But if the item isn't in the box, you don't have to find the H > > item to determine that it isn't in the box. You only need to look in
 > > the box.   > 4 > See HELP Lexicals F$GETDVI and the EXISTS keyword.  A I looked. There's nothing about it in my system's help (v6.1). It B simply lists all the keywords. I checked the Web docs, and it justD says that EXISTS gives "TRUE or FALSE to indicate whether the device. exists on the system". What's your point here?   [...] J > > However, a point in favor of the first school: If it doesn't exist, itF > > can't be available. Please explain how a device that doesn't exist" > > could be available or mounted? > - > You're making the argument. You explain it.   B The point of the question is that it has the obvious answer of "itC can't" which validates the first school as a legitimate possibility E for f$getdvi. If you can show that "it can't" is an incorrect answer, D then you have a case against the first school. There is nothing more for me to explain.  E > It's not the system's responsibility to cover the programmer's ass. F > That's YOUR job. It's up to your code determine whether an action isE > valid before attempting to take such an action. That is, before you J > attempt to examine a device, its up to YOU (not VMS, DCL, etc.) to first  > see whether or not it exists.   D That depends on the code and what it is doing. Also, you can't check( every action ahead of time all the time.  1 I use F$GETDVI("dev","EXISTS") where appropriate.   G > Expecting the system to cover your mistakes is a large portion of why F > Windows and the app.'s that run on it are so unreliable: programmersH > expect to be looked after by a system that doesn't care about them andJ > expects them to look after their own mistakes (remember Norman and HarryH > Mudd?). Let's not start taking an example from THAT school of thought, > shall we?    Who's expecting this?    Summary:  D I like one (or two, depends on how you count them) of your argumentsD against the first school. I disagree with the rest. But I agree withE you that the second school, which is what DEC implemented, is better, E in part because of one or two of your reasons, and in part because of  mine.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:58:58 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement' Message-ID: <3E093B12.6E3FC1C5@fsi.net>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > [snip]
 > Summary: > F > I like one (or two, depends on how you count them) of your argumentsF > against the first school. I disagree with the rest. But I agree withG > you that the second school, which is what DEC implemented, is better, G > in part because of one or two of your reasons, and in part because of  > mine.   < Well, strictly speaking, they aren't "mine". They're my best3 interpretation of the intent of the authors of VMS.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 18:26:05 -0500 3 From: "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com>  Subject: FA: Digital Laptop Bag 5 Message-ID: <lY5O9.60796$C06.7803@news.bellsouth.net>   5 Anybody need a new laptop bag for their DEC notebook? = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2083714614    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:18:36 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Holiday Greetings' Message-ID: <3E093FAC.F97966C2@fsi.net>    To the Group...   D Many thanx for all the knowledge poured forth here this past year. IE learn much from all of you, and hope that I return that in some small  measure.  H My Warmest Greetings to All, and I do mean _ALL_, and my Best Wishes for" a healthy and prosperous New Year.   I raise my glass to you...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:57:04 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)  Subject: Re: HP and DirecTV & Message-ID: <H7nMv4.8AM@world.std.com>  2 In article <3DF96C57.925A03CD@firstdbasource.com>,3 Michael Austin  <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:   I > Hmmmm.. the company I work for will exceed 114TB with our next purchase J > -- soon.  We just surpassed 100TB when we installed 2 more T5's.  All itH > takes is  < five "T5" StorageWorks configurations using 72GB drives.    F Let me guess-- oil industry?  I thought our 20TB of NetApp storage wasI impressive; >100TB has got to be a real pain to backup.  I hope you're at G least dealing with very large files or databases.  I our case, the file G sizes range from a few KB to a few dozen MB, with the average file size F being somewhere in the tens of KB.  It's no fun to backing up several  hundred million files.   -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----->       IBM 1130 Club Motto:  "Computer People Are Happy People"   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Dec 2002 14:46:39 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)# Subject: is VMS really easy to use? < Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0212241446.4a3d9a4b@posting.google.com>  @ The more I learn about OpenVMS the more I see that the statement/ "OpenVMS is easier than UNIX" is just not true.     I mean come on which is simpler:  D $ DELETE dev:[dir.subdir...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,[dir]subdir.dir;   or   $ rm -r dir   D Plus the much-touted help facility that only shows command names and< arguments and never explains output.  "man ps" will tell youF everything about what ps outputs but "help show sys" will not tell you what "LEF" is.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:36:59 +1100 B From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@noooo_spammm_optusnet.com.au>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ; Message-ID: <3e08efa5$0$7814$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>    Swings and round abouts.  , you can use the delete_tree programme on the, freeware cd if you want to do the following.  + So using these two examples makes UNIX some  much better? I don't think so.  # Is cat filename.txt any easier than  Type filename.txt ?   + is grep filename.txt string any eaiser than  search filename.txt string ?  , VMS is eaier for someone to get up and going( than UNIX is. Mostly because UNIX has to, maintain the backwards compatibility and the1 "versions" that came out in the 60's. If you know , that man  is help in UNIX then good for you.6 If you think that if you'd like some help, then typing3 help is a bit more logical, and that is why we know  VMS is a bit more sensible.    kiwi      5 "Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in message 6 news:c5cf6e8.0212241446.4a3d9a4b@posting.google.com...B > The more I learn about OpenVMS the more I see that the statement1 > "OpenVMS is easier than UNIX" is just not true.  > " > I mean come on which is simpler: > F > $ DELETE dev:[dir.subdir...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,[dir]subdir.dir; >  > or > 
 > $ rm -r dir  > F > Plus the much-touted help facility that only shows command names and> > arguments and never explains output.  "man ps" will tell youH > everything about what ps outputs but "help show sys" will not tell you > what "LEF" is.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:03:19 -0400 ( From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@vl.videotron.ca>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? / Message-ID: <3E092E05.A2682C35@vl.videotron.ca>    Baby Peanut wrote:" > I mean come on which is simpler: > F > $ DELETE dev:[dir.subdir...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,[dir]subdir.dir;   $DELETE [dir.subdir...]*.*;*O <ctrl-b><return> until there is no longer a complaint of non-empty directories.   L If you really must automate this, you can use the reeware DFU utility to get it done.    $ VMS is to Unix what Cobol is to APL.  N VMS uses more intuitive commands, easier to understand in plainer english than8 Unix whose commands and arguments/switches very cryptic.  B And if you do a DELETE [...]*.*;*, the error messages will be selfL explanatory. So while you may hacve to re-issue the command a few times, youS actually understand what is happening because the error messages are understanable.   M and you can also do HELP/MESSAGE <message-code> to get more information about  the error message.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:10:56 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ' Message-ID: <3E093DE0.A472DC87@fsi.net>    Baby Peanut wrote: > B > The more I learn about OpenVMS the more I see that the statement1 > "OpenVMS is easier than UNIX" is just not true.  > " > I mean come on which is simpler: > F > $ DELETE dev:[dir.subdir...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,[dir]subdir.dir; >  > or > 
 > $ rm -r dir  > F > Plus the much-touted help facility that only shows command names and> > arguments and never explains output.  "man ps" will tell youH > everything about what ps outputs but "help show sys" will not tell you > what "LEF" is.  C Process states are documented elsewhere. Help does not endeavour to ( replace the hard-copy manuals (darnit!).  E There are many DELTREE implementations around, some in DCL, others in G compiled/linked languages. In general, though, VMS tries to protect you E from yourself quite frequently. Not providing an easy way of deleting & entire directory trees is one of them.  D I've never used or even tried this, but other posters have suggested that:   1 $ BACKUP/DELETE [mydir...]*.*;* nla0:null.sav/sav   G ...will produce the desired results, but only if you have Delete access ? to every directory in that path, with the possible exception of < "mydir.dir;1", which you'll have to dispose of deliberately.  G Also, the freeware DFU utility has a DELETE/TREE command which is quite F a bit faster than most other methods, but still observes privilege and( access (permission) restrictions, AFAIK.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Dec 02 07:37:32 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ) Message-ID: <dKYziUczuVNL@elias.decus.ch>   g In article <c5cf6e8.0212241446.4a3d9a4b@posting.google.com>, baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) writes: B > The more I learn about OpenVMS the more I see that the statement1 > "OpenVMS is easier than UNIX" is just not true.  >   A For me, the "ease" of VMS comes from consistent, English language ; qualifiers, with the same meaning across multiple commands.   ? A couple of decades ago, its relatively verbose nature could be B a pain in the neck when working on a 4800 baud (or less) teletype,B or worse across a modem, but nowadays that is no longer a concern.   " > I mean come on which is simpler: > F > $ DELETE dev:[dir.subdir...]*.*;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,;*,[dir]subdir.dir; >  > or > 
 > $ rm -r dir  > # I'll counter that by quoting man ps   > "-r      Sort by current cpu usage, instead of by process ID."  C How on earth does "-r" relate to any English word in that sentence? > You see, I have to learn what "-r" means for every single Unix; utility, and as the above illustrates, it can vary greatly.    F > Plus the much-touted help facility that only shows command names and> > arguments and never explains output.  "man ps" will tell youH > everything about what ps outputs but "help show sys" will not tell you > what "LEF" is.  E Granted that it doesn't explain all the states, but what's wrong with 0 this from "show system examples" (Alpha V7.3-1)?  ? o  Process state-The activity level of the process, such as COM ?    (computing), HIB (hibernation), LEF (local event flag) wait, &    or CUR (if the process is current).  G My two cents - as someone who learnt VMS before looking at Unix, I find < the lack of examples in the man pages extremely frustrating.  D And the syntax of the man command is, for me, not intuitive. It took4 me ages and much frustration to get around this one:   from "man rm":   SEE ALSOD      rmdir(1), undelete(2), unlink(2), fts(3), getopt(3), symlink(7)   man undelete(2)  Badly placed ()'s.  : Oh, silly me, I now know that what I should have said was:   man 2 undelete0 No entry for undelete in section 2 of the manual   Ooops, bad example there :-)  @ Now, I never found the trick of reversing the number and command? when I was using Linux. man man on Mac OS X describes it, which @ brings me to the comment that the man pages vary in quality from  one version of *n*x to the next.  E Too summarize, both systems are different. I personally find VMS help F far more informative than man, particularly when it comes to examples. --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:04:36 -0600 . From: Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> Subject: Re: Link errors. - Message-ID: <3E08D9F3.911896E@pressenter.com>    Lyndon Bartels wrote:  > ! > Alpha VMS 7.3-1, (Latest ECOs.)  > CC 6.5 > 7 > On my port of PostgreSQL.... I'm getting link errors:  > ? > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol DECC$GXSNPRINTF referenced 5 > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol ERRNO referenced  >   E I figured out what was wrong with the errno errors.   That particular D module didn't have the "#include <errno.h>" statement. Other modulesG that referenced errno, did.... So I correctly saw the include statement  elsewhere. Just not here.     C Now to get snprintf implemented. I thought the "DECC$" meant it was G being translated to a system function... I can't remember exactly where  I read that, so don't quote me.        Thanks,    Lyndon   --  G My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of my 	 employer.     H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Dec 2002 16:32:22 -08001 From: usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com (Joshua Lehrer) + Subject: Re: lock manager and blocking asts = Message-ID: <477e0934.0212241632.6da7164f@posting.google.com>   ! Ok, here is a follow up question.   E Process #1 (P1) obtains a protected read with blocking ast, then goes - in to an infinite while (1) sys$hiber() loop.    Process #2 (P2) does the same   @ the blocking asts do NOT release the lock, and are only there to% inform me that they have been called.   5 Process #3 (P3) attempts to obtain a protected write.    which asts are called?  D My first guess was that first P1's ast would be called.  IFF P1 wereB to release the lock, then P2's ast would be called.  My theory was> that P1 is stopping P3 from obtaining the lock.  If P1 doesn'tE relinquish, then why bother informing P2?  In my example, P1 does not = relinquish the lock, and thus, only P1's ast would be called.   F My second guess was that both P1 and P2 would have their asts called. D This would be an optimization, allowing each to decide, in parallel,@ if they wanted to release the lock.  This was the behavior I was hoping for, for my application.   D It turns out that my second guess is correct.  Can someone give me aF better explanation as to why?  Is this documented somewhere?  I'd hateF to build up my application relying on this behavior, only to have this "undocumented" behavior change.    thanks  
 joshua lehrer  factset research systems   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Dec 2002 11:23:22 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)+ Subject: Merry Christmas to all VMS'ers ... = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0212241123.15271191@posting.google.com>   1 Merry Christmas ... hope you all get an alpha VMS 0 system for Christmas!  any other brand or os and" Christmas will not be so merry ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:39:59 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>/ Subject: Re: Merry Christmas to all VMS'ers ... 5 Message-ID: <auano1$61lcv$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   7 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> schreef in bericht 7 news:d7791aa1.0212241123.15271191@posting.google.com... 3 > Merry Christmas ... hope you all get an alpha VMS 2 > system for Christmas!  any other brand or os and$ > Christmas will not be so merry ...   Bob,  3 a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year to you.   
 Hans Vlems, (who indeed got an Alpha for Christmas ....)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:55:56 +1100 L From: forSALTsythm@optushome.com.aSALTu (Mark(desalinate for e-mail)Forsyth)% Subject: Re: Murphy's law at its best 9 Message-ID: <slrnb0i0gs.o5.forSALTsythm@plague.bogus.com>   T On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:19:49 -0400, JF Mezei <jfmezei@vl.videotron.ca> gushed forth: >Colin Butcher wrote:  >>   >> So where's CAMPAG then? > I >Probably next disk drive I add. I could then use full name CAMPAGNOLO...   S And then Zeuss (sp?) and the next two after that could be Sturmey and Archer....:-)      --   Ooroo 	 Mark F...   $ Another Optus Cable Traffic Monitor.3 http://www.members.optushome.com.au/forsythm/traff/   H Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 67th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3168   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:42:48 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl># Subject: Re: OpenVMS Branding QueryN5 Message-ID: <auanta$5u4p4$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>C  2 "Arne Vajhj" <arne@vajhoej.dk> schreef in bericht# news:3E078413.7070508@vajhoej.dk...a > JF Mezei wrote:  >* > > Hans Vlems wrote: ; > >>The DECWindows logo changed to Compaq with VAX/VMS 7.3.p > >pK > > Isn't that ironic ... Didn't 7.3 get released at a time where Curly had ? > > already announced his intentions to sell himself to Carly ?i >n >  > Sounds rigth.i >a >aD > And very funny from a general perspective, but very understandable? > from a software development perspective. I assume there are a ; > quite some time from code freeze to release to customers.t >sK HP seems a lot faster in removing the Compaq name. Just look at the time ita6 took for HP to rename the Compaq and Digital websites.I I guess that the next VMS release will show the HP logo on the DECWindowsiC screen and HP copyright notices in the appropriate system messages.w   Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:52:52 -0400 ( From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@vl.videotron.ca># Subject: Re: OpenVMS Branding Queryn/ Message-ID: <3E092B92.E605438B@vl.videotron.ca>-   Hans Vlems wrote:-K > I guess that the next VMS release will show the HP logo on the DECWindowsmE > screen and HP copyright notices in the appropriate system messages.b    N I would hope that the engineers would by now have added #define statements forK the owner and  product name so that all the constant changes/renames can bet/ done quickly without costing a gazillion bucks.m  K We all know that VMS will eventually drop the silent "Open". And we have nos: idea who will be the owner of VMS 2-3 years down the road.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:49:41 GMT - From: "Carl Bennett" <carltbennett@yahoo.com> K Subject: Re: Request for Discussion, make comp.os.vms a moderated newsgroup 8 Message-ID: <919O9.81363$_S2.16253@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>  H not that I am not hopelessly behind in keeping up with this group, but IL would also like to see it remain as it is. It seems that there just aren't aK lot of places to go for help with VMS, certainly not HP, and I have come to'I enjoy reading this group and picking up what tips I can and would hate tor& see anything happen to diminish that..    ; "CSABA HARANGOZO" <csabah@zipworld.com.au> wrote in messagey/ news:_DFI9.558$P5.30589@nasal.pacific.net.au...-0 > Dave Weatherall <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote:H > > On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:34:43 UTC, John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> wrote: >r > >>I > >> Please keep it the way it is.  One can delete off-topic posts easilyS > >> enough. > >> > >> John Nebeli >eH > > My view entirely. I get more wound up by the chinese spam stuff that) > > arrives at one of my email addresses.o >i > > -- > > Cheers - Dave. > ? > Yes, agree. Keep the newsgroup as it is. I've been reading ite: > for quite a few years, one can skip the off-topic posts. >- > Cheers,  Csaba > K >    ----------------------------------------------------------------------)G >    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog G >    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush.VK >    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- = >    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:32:37 +0100-" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>% Subject: Re: SCSI controller question)5 Message-ID: <auana7$5oohu$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>-  L Correct, I swapped the controller for a seemingly identical one but with VMSK support and a VMS product id and that controller worked straight out of the9 box.K The difference in speed in booting between an RZ28M on the SCSI2 bus and anl+ 4.3GB RZ1CC Ultra SCSI drive is impressive.n   Thanks for your comments.0  
 Hans Vlems  0 "mhr" <mreilly36@comcast.net> schreef in bericht* news:FmednRYGMo_hwZqjXTWcqg@comcast.com...K > Intraserver controllers need to be the VMS-capable type, ie., a couple oftH > roms added to the board-these of course are the most expensive roms inJ > history. Note the controller will work with the various linux as well as > Tru64  > mhri/ > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in messagey1 > news:au7lvl$5375e$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de...rI > > My new Alphaserver 5000 (not too dissimilar from an Alpha 1200) got at SCSII > > controller today. It is a device with on-board ethernet and two Ultra- SCSII > > ports, available as external outlets or as internal ports. I use botha > portseE > > internally. The console SHOW DEV command lists all 5 disks on theg > controller- > > and passes a diagnostic test (TEST PCI1).n* > > But VMS boots with the error messages: > >a9 > > SCSi chip is SYM53C875 Operating Mode is SE UltraSCSI  > > ROM Checksum read errork > > L > > for both the PKB0 and PKC0 devices and they stay off line. The disks are( > > (obviously) not available under VMS.+ > > VMS SHOW DEV PkB0 shows: KZPCM off linesL > > I have tried the controller on pci0 and pci1, both cases resulted in the > > same error message.h > >e2 > > The onboard ethernet interface works properly. > >l& > > Any idea what causes this problem? > >o > > Hans > >i >o >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:55:18 -0400l( From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@vl.videotron.ca>> Subject: Star date, Smithsonian date, and VMS datetime formats/ Message-ID: <3E093A31.E73A829C@vl.videotron.ca>d  I Are there any plans for VMS to support the star trek star-date format for  output ?  F We all know that in a few decades, we'll have warp drivce (2063 in ourN calendar format). Isn't it time for VMS to start supporting the star-date time format ?  M Merry Christmas, don't eat too much turkey, and a Happy prosperous new year !g   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 20:39:27 +0000 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> ) Subject: Re: Suggestions for Removing LATl6 Message-ID: <3E08C5FF.29970576@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  E A little late to this party (unsurprisingly) but there's an importanth point for remote systems:tG LAT startup rarely fails, DECnet and TCP/IP startups do fail sometimes.pE If you have LAT running on the system and something else locally that H you can use to talk to the system using LAT then you may be able to dragG a system out of the clag after a problematic reboot where you otherwise9 would not be able to.    Needless to say, YMMV.   Steve.     Jiri Kulhan wrote: > L > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:13:39 -0600 tolkien <limer1don@netscape.net> wrote: > I > > I have 2 Alpha Servers which are running LAT.  Our Datacom DepartmentuF > > is currently Bridging it across the Network which is creating some
 > > overhead.V > >sG > > Both servers run OpenVMS 7.2-1.  We currently have about 25 devicesiB > > which are utilizing the LAT which we would like to move to IP. > >eI > > I would like to see any feedback from any of you that have ever moved F > > devices from LAT to IP as far as pitfalls, gotcha's and success's. > >t > M > I installed a Xyplex LAT/Telnet gateway box several years ago. Worked fine.  > 
 > Regards, > 
 > Jiri Kulhan    -- oG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likesE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.cA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:26:38 GMTs8 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> Subject: Re: UTC time in DCL4 Message-ID: <3E08DEF7.8DB7492A@b9rvnospamcompsys.to>   >Dirk Munk wrote:t  G > One of the problems I encounter in DCL is that it is only possible tosF > get the local time from F$TIME, and only in the shape of dd-mon-yyyy > hh:mm:ss.tt .W >EB > Of course I know it is possible to use F$CVTIME, but that is notB > enough. I would like to be able to extract UTC time for example,@ > without having to write my own calculations. It is possible toE > calculate the UTC time, but the resulting syntax will be yyyy-mm-dd F > etc.. Since F$CVTIME is a one-way routine it is rather cumbersome to( > get it back in the dd-mon-yyyy syntax. >iG > Other time syntaxes would be nice too, for instance the syntaxes that  > are in use with SMTP and NCL.) > E > To start with, maybe it is possible to extend the F$TIME routine toc > F$TIME("UTC") ?h >u6 > Maybe Hoff can give us his thoughts on this matter ?   Jerome Fine replies:  7 Although I used to use VMS a few years ago, I don't usee6 VMS these days at all.  But I do seem to remember that4 both the DATE and the TIME are internally kept via a4 64 bit clock of so many 100 nanoseconds since a date% in 1800s - is that January 1st, 1858?r  : My question is this:  Now that the use of leap seconds has9 been introduced, does the VMS internal clock get adjusted.! every time a leap second is used?e  9 The alternative seems to be that the clock keeps track ofe4 the absolute number of 100 nanoseconds and somewhere; a table does an adjustment with the current Delta-T or what & is needed to provide the correct TIME.  9 Also, are the internal DATE/TIME calculations done now ineA 64 bits or are they still done in 32 bits - which means that they , will fail sometime during the next 50 years.  < Finally, while any adjustments needed for the calendar being> different from the current Gregorian adjustments to the Julian8 Calendar (ONLY one century year out of 4 is a leap year)8 probably will not be required for about 2000 years until8 4000 CE, has anyone actually checked the details to make; sure?  In particular, will the use of Leap Seconds defer or ; hasten the need for additional adjustments to the Gregoriani6 Calendar in the form of changing the number of century: leap years in every 400 years from ONE to ZERO (or perhaps5 even TWO - unless so eager beaver group in the futures; decides to restore the Julian requirement for every century  leap year being required).  ; And last, but for me NOT least, is it presently possible tof: project how long it will be (an estimate in seconds) until8 January 1st, 9999 CE?  Or is the answer to this question6 have such a huge range to the possible answer that any8 estimate just makes no sense at all?  Likewise, does the3 date January 1st, 9999 BCE have a reasonable numbert6 for the range in the estimate of the number of seconds6 between January 1st, 9999 BCE and January 1st 1999 CE?5 Namely when someone wishes to talk about exactly when 6 January 1st, 9999 BCE would have been in the Gregorian8 Proleptic Calendar, is there an answer which most people: can agree on?  And the same for how long it will be before  January 1st, 9999 CE will occur?   Sincerely yours,   Jerome Finec --4 To obtain the original e-mail address, please remove5 the ten characters which immediately follow the 'at'.e8 If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail7 address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk 5 e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can ben7 obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the . 'at' with the four digits of the current year.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:08:06 -0500e' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> & Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth' Message-ID: <6slaua.ugi.ln@192.168.1.1>t   Dave wrote:b  ? > In alt.folklore.computers greenaum@bollocksyahoo.co.uk wrote:v: >> On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:16:37 -0600, "David J. Dachtera"$ >> <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> sprachen: > J >>>Beyond that, unless you've sworn a blood-oath to keep VAX-only alive inI >>>this way, I'd shop around for used Alpha 2100s, 4100s, used CIPCAs andi2 >>>other CI gear. Alphas are a LOT cheaper to run. > I >> I dunno what a VAX 6K is, but I can only assume it's some old, classic B >> computer, and it's being run for sortof nostalgia and enjoyment8 >> reasons, not as a commercial server for some purpose. > D > Not really.  The VAX 6000 series was the last(?) series of big VAXH > machines (ie, refrigerator-sized and up).  I'm not sure when they were5 > discontinued, but I know of one that's marked 1996.   G Next to the last.  The VAX 7000 series (76xx, 77xx, 78xx) was the last.f           Stu    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Dec 2002 16:52:26 -0800$ From: bdhobbs18@acm.org (Bill Hobbs) Subject: VMS ISPs?= Message-ID: <74ca5032.0212241652.359728dd@posting.google.com>s  E My second regularly unscheduled poll of cov looking for ISPs that use  VMS.   Last time (2000 Oct 13G http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8s78s9%24n9f%241%40nnrp1.deja.com)y! y'all came up with the following:nB (Used http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/ to determine the OS and http server)  - http://www.dls.net/  Apache on NetBSD/OpenBSD1? DLS Internet acquired FSINet (www.fsi.net and had VMS) 2001 Augc! VMS is mentioned among other OSs.a2 Is the mailing list vms-isps@dls.net still active?  * http://www.endor.com/  Purveyor on OpenVMS Proud to be a VMS ISP! Local to NH?   http://www.iah.com/i Gone, domain name is available.t  ( http://www.infoave.net/  Apache on Tru64  Could not find a mention of VMS.9 Are they an ISP or do they resell their services to ISPs?h7 Stumbled onto web.infoave.net, which is OSU on OpenVMS.   7 http://www.prodigy.net/  Netscape-Enterprise on unknown # Used VMS in the past, any VMS left?u  > A German ISP using VMS was mentioned, but no URL was provided.  O From http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=39ED61F7.D4123BFC%40SMTP.DeltaTel.RU, ! possibly a Russian ISP using VMS?b  4 http://www.iaregistry.com/  Apache (Unix) on unknown> Domain registry that ran on VMS and Tru64, is this still true?   http://www.radiusvms.com RADIUS on VMS, ISP software?! Site does not respond, timed out.   " The 2002 Dec 01 web server survey,? http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/Reports/0212/, has the followingt selected counts:   total   35,543,105   OSU          3,540A   Purveyor       549  Purveyor runs on OSs other than VMS, right?    HTTPd-WASD     236F Any other http servers for VMS?  Apache at 22,045,350, plus some otherF entries with Apache in the name.  But it runs on other OSs, like Unix.  C So Endor seems to be an all VMS ISP, DLS and InfoAve appear to havel@ VMS servers among other OSs.  Anyone here actually a customer orA employee of any of these ISPs?  Can a customer have their accountuD services (web, e-mail, etc.) exclusively on VMS?  Can a customer get to a $ prompt?  ' Are there any other VMS ISPs out there?s   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.711 ************************I > Another would be a "compiled" program using system services directly to A > identify the known devices and determine their characteristics.   F Oh, please. You tell how a single, particular method fails t@Ѫ    AѪ    BѪ    CѪ    DѪ    EѪ    FѪ    GѪ    HѪ    IѪ    JѪ    KѪ    LѪ    MѪ    NѪ    OѪ    PѪ    QѪ    RѪ    SѪ    TѪ    UѪ    VѪ    WѪ    XѪ    YѪ    ZѪ    [Ѫ    \Ѫ    ]Ѫ    ^Ѫ    _Ѫ    `Ѫ    aѪ    bѪ    cѪ    dѪ    eѪ    fѪ    gѪ    hѪ    iѪ    jѪ    kѪ    lѪ    mѪ    nѪ    oѪ    pѪ    qѪ    rѪ    sѪ    tѪ    uѪ    vѪ    wѪ    xѪ    yѪ    zѪ    {Ѫ    |Ѫ    }Ѫ    ~Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    ÍѪ    čѪ    ōѪ    ƍѪ    ǍѪ    ȍѪ    ɍѪ    ʍѪ    ˍѪ    ̍Ѫ    ͍Ѫ    ΍Ѫ    ύѪ    ЍѪ    эѪ    ҍѪ    ӍѪ    ԍѪ    ՍѪ    ֍Ѫ    ׍Ѫ    ؍Ѫ    ٍѪ    ڍѪ    ۍѪ    ܍Ѫ    ݍѪ    ލѪ    ߍѪ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    Ѫ    